481: What If… Octobox?


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 481 for October 16th, 2023.

00:00:16   Today's show is brought to you by Electric, ZocDoc, DeleteMe, and Notion.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley, and I have the pleasure of being joined by Jason Sunell. Hello, Jason.

00:00:25   Hello, Michael Hurley. It's a new week. It is good to hear you.

00:00:29   It is a new week. New Upgrade, new week, everybody.

00:00:32   We get it started. Let's get it started now. Let's get it started in here.

00:00:35   It's time to upgrade your week with us.

00:00:38   Every week is upgraded by having Upgrade be in it.

00:00:44   I have a Snell Talk question from Mark.

00:00:46   He says, "Of all of the recent talk about the fine woven iPhone cases,

00:00:50   some people mention that the case comes into contact with their keys, and it scratches the case.

00:00:56   Do you keep your keys in the same pocket of your phone?"

00:01:00   Um...

00:01:03   Two part answer here.

00:01:05   When I carried keys back in the before time,

00:01:12   I did not keep them with my phone because it will scratch the screen.

00:01:16   And you're a monster if you put your keys or any other scratchy thing in the pocket with your phone.

00:01:22   You can't do it. Don't do it.

00:01:23   Phone pocket is just all it is. Phone pocket.

00:01:27   Phone pocket.

00:01:28   You could put something soft in there if you really wanted to, but you probably shouldn't.

00:01:31   No. It's the same as when you put your phone in a bag.

00:01:33   It goes in its own pocket with nothing else in it.

00:01:36   Ah, yes.

00:01:37   That's the way love.

00:01:39   But the truth is I don't carry keys anymore.

00:01:42   I have, just as I no longer, several years ago, switched to the I don't carry cash,

00:01:49   which the Apple Wallet has been great for,

00:01:51   because now I just have a little magnetic thing with three cards in it on the back of my phone, and that's it.

00:01:56   You have a fine woven one of those, don't you?

00:01:59   There is one in my house.

00:02:02   I am still...

00:02:04   Actually, I had that moment the other day where I was looking down at my brand new iPhone 15 Pro

00:02:11   and the leather case on the back, and I was like, "Forbidden.

00:02:16   You're not supposed to know about this iPhone 15.

00:02:19   We used to make things out of leather."

00:02:21   (laughs)

00:02:23   But don't tell it.

00:02:24   Don't tell it what it is.

00:02:26   It thinks it's fine woven, I'm sure.

00:02:28   I'm sure it thinks that.

00:02:29   Anyway, so I did that.

00:02:31   I don't carry a wallet.

00:02:34   I don't carry cash.

00:02:35   And I've managed to get to the point where I don't need to carry keys,

00:02:39   because there are, you know, I've got...

00:02:44   If I leave the house and have to drive a car,

00:02:49   there is a key hanging on a little hook by the door,

00:02:54   and then I will take that, and I will...

00:02:58   I suppose it may end up in a pocket at some point, right?

00:03:01   I have to put it in a pocket at some point.

00:03:03   It will be the non-phone pocket.

00:03:06   But it's...

00:03:07   That's like, my key usage is real low at this point.

00:03:11   Like, I used to have a key ring with keys on it.

00:03:15   Our front door doesn't need a key anymore.

00:03:17   Like, I just...

00:03:19   I don't have keys anymore, which is great.

00:03:23   I love it, because it furthers my,

00:03:25   I guess what we discovered

00:03:26   when I was going through that therapy session with Steven,

00:03:28   my apparently minimalist approach to life,

00:03:31   which is, you know, I'm reducing clutter in a lot of areas,

00:03:35   and then focusing all my clutter on podcast t-shirts.

00:03:38   Makes sense.

00:03:39   Who wouldn't want to do it?

00:03:40   That's where I'm not a minimalist,

00:03:42   to the point where I now have two drawers of my dresser

00:03:44   full of t-shirts,

00:03:45   and I have a drawer out here in the garage

00:03:48   of other t-shirts that I rotate in, because...

00:03:50   - Do you mean t-shirts, like the wonderful wares available

00:03:53   at upgradeyourwardrobe.com for like one more day,

00:03:57   if you're listening to this,

00:03:57   but then we also have the Undermind t-shirts

00:03:59   that are always available?

00:04:01   - Well, what I was going to say is,

00:04:02   if you'd like to be like me and be a t-shirt maximalist,

00:04:05   a podcast t-shirt maximalist, upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:04:08   Right now, for some, always for others.

00:04:12   But if you're with a hoodie, now, right now.

00:04:14   - Thank you to Mark for sending in that question.

00:04:19   If you would like to help us open a future episode

00:04:21   of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com

00:04:25   and send in your own Snow Talk question.

00:04:28   We have a variety of follow-up today, Jason Snow.

00:04:31   There's a bit of a grab bag of follow-up here.

00:04:34   First, it says, "Jason went to a concert last week

00:04:37   "and used AirPods Pro as earplugs.

00:04:39   "I think you, along with about 50% of the people

00:04:43   "I follow on Instagram, went to see Death Cab for Cutie

00:04:46   "this weekend in one of the various places

00:04:48   "that they were playing."

00:04:49   - Yep, I saw them at the Greek Theater

00:04:51   in Berkeley on Wednesday.

00:04:53   Fantastic, just fantastic.

00:04:56   I've been to, I think, four different shows now

00:05:00   where a band has played their album.

00:05:03   This is a thing now, right?

00:05:05   - Yep, classic album. - Where a band just plays

00:05:06   an album front to back.

00:05:10   And I have two thoughts about this.

00:05:12   One is everybody stop.

00:05:16   Death Cab for Cutie and the Postal Service did it.

00:05:17   It's not gonna get much better than that, so stop.

00:05:20   - Oh, interesting. - Because otherwise,

00:05:23   some of the other concerts I've been to,

00:05:25   there was one where the realization partway through was,

00:05:29   oh, I skip a lot of tracks on this album.

00:05:31   It's a classic album with a lot of great hits,

00:05:33   but there's also a lot of songs that aren't very good.

00:05:35   And I wondered if the band thought that too,

00:05:37   but they said they would play it, so they played it all.

00:05:40   And then I had another one where it was almost like

00:05:42   the artist had been held hostage by his bad decision

00:05:45   that was suggested by his manager.

00:05:47   And you could tell, he'd be like,

00:05:48   "Oh yeah, my manager suggested

00:05:49   "that I play this whole album."

00:05:50   And then later in the show, he's like,

00:05:52   "Okay guys, we gotta get through this."

00:05:54   And I realized, oh no. - Oh no.

00:05:56   - He also has decided that this is not a great show

00:05:59   playing an album straight through.

00:06:00   That said, I've also been to a good album show before.

00:06:03   And then this one, which was great,

00:06:06   legitimately just great.

00:06:07   It was "Transatlanticism" and "Give Up."

00:06:10   And it was wonderful.

00:06:12   And I didn't, I thought, what am I gonna do for earplugs?

00:06:16   I have in the past taken literally my in-ear monitors

00:06:21   and put them in my ears without just, you know,

00:06:25   not plugged in.

00:06:26   I thought, you know, AirPods, let's try the AirPods Pro.

00:06:29   Let's see how those work.

00:06:30   And it's funny 'cause then I listened to Marco

00:06:33   talk about this on ATP and I was like,

00:06:34   "Ah, Marco, did you wait for the week

00:06:36   "that I actually got to try this out

00:06:38   "and then talk about your experience at a Phish concert?"

00:06:40   Although he tried it in an iOS 16 era.

00:06:43   So I got to try out adaptive transparency as well.

00:06:46   I'm here to report that for my money,

00:06:48   transparency mode is the best mode.

00:06:50   With the reduced loud sounds turned on,

00:06:54   it sounds really good without blowing out your eardrums.

00:06:58   Adaptive transparency, it's trying to filter out

00:07:02   certain kinds of sounds, it sounds weird.

00:07:04   - I don't think that would be good for a concert,

00:07:06   I don't think.

00:07:07   - No, and noise canceling's worse.

00:07:09   Noise canceling is like, it's like what it's filtering

00:07:12   and what it's not, it's a very distorted, strange view

00:07:14   of what's going on in the outside world.

00:07:16   But I had pretty good luck with transparency mode.

00:07:19   It sounded pretty good.

00:07:20   I did not bring standard earplugs like Marco did

00:07:24   to compare it to, but I was actually pretty happy with that.

00:07:27   And the bottom line is if you're somewhere

00:07:29   and you don't have earplugs and you do have AirPods Pro

00:07:32   and you're worried about hearing protection,

00:07:34   you should use them because it will afford you

00:07:36   some degree of protection from it.

00:07:38   And the Death Cab set in particular was real loud

00:07:42   and I was able to put those in my ears and it was quieter.

00:07:47   And then I took them out for quieter songs,

00:07:50   but for the real loud songs, I popped them back in.

00:07:52   - Probably would need them for postal service.

00:07:54   I'm gonna guess.

00:07:55   - Postal service was loud, but not that loud.

00:07:58   And I in fact took them out for postal service

00:08:01   'cause it was fine.

00:08:01   I had them out for the Beths and postal service,

00:08:04   but for Death Cab, I had to put them in

00:08:06   for a lot of the songs 'cause they were super loud.

00:08:08   - Do you not feel socially awkward

00:08:11   wearing AirPods at a concert?

00:08:13   - No.

00:08:14   - See, I think I would. - I don't care.

00:08:16   I don't know any of those people other than Lauren

00:08:18   and she had hers in too.

00:08:19   I just don't-- - You have a healthier view

00:08:21   of the world-- - I don't care.

00:08:21   - And of yourself, but I think I would feel strange

00:08:24   wearing AirPods at a concert.

00:08:27   - No, I just don't, I don't care.

00:08:29   I mean, ultimately I don't know any of those people.

00:08:32   Actually, somebody did come up to me in between the breaks.

00:08:34   Dan Wood of Karelia Software,

00:08:37   a developer and local area resident,

00:08:40   spotted me apparently and came over and said hi.

00:08:43   He was working the event.

00:08:45   He had a windbreaker on.

00:08:47   He said, "Yeah, I get to guard the VIP area

00:08:50   "and see a lot of free shows."

00:08:52   I'm like, actually that's kind of cool.

00:08:55   So, but yeah, it doesn't bother me.

00:08:57   Like again, I'm not, you can't hear anybody anyway.

00:09:01   So you're like, it's not gonna block you out.

00:09:03   It's really just that there are AirPods in your ears

00:09:04   and like everybody's already making decisions

00:09:06   about if they have headphones in their ears or not.

00:09:09   I just didn't care.

00:09:11   I just wanted to protect my ears.

00:09:12   And so I did.

00:09:13   It was fun.

00:09:15   - I've made a concerted effort

00:09:17   to use the adaptive transparency mode.

00:09:21   - Mm-hmm, I love it.

00:09:23   - Because I tried it and didn't like it.

00:09:25   But that was just one day.

00:09:28   And I was like, no.

00:09:29   Like they've obviously done this for a reason.

00:09:31   Let me try it.

00:09:32   So I've been using it every day since I was 17 came out.

00:09:37   And it's not perfect,

00:09:41   but I think it's good for like my daily usage.

00:09:44   Depending on where I am

00:09:47   depends on how much I notice it or not.

00:09:49   You know, like when I'm in louder environments,

00:09:52   I notice that it's happening, right?

00:09:53   Because it feels like I'm in noise cancellation mode.

00:09:58   For me at least,

00:10:01   noise cancellation mode has a certain feeling

00:10:03   and adaptive transparency mode

00:10:06   has a little bit of that feeling sometimes.

00:10:08   But I do figure like I am at least in areas there

00:10:11   where there is loud stuff happening.

00:10:14   And I've been putting it through certain tests just myself.

00:10:18   Like if I'm walking around

00:10:19   and it's filtering out traffic noise,

00:10:21   I'm like focusing on what's around me

00:10:22   and like can I hear these other things?

00:10:25   I would say it does a surprisingly good job for me of,

00:10:28   I don't feel like the world is drowned out completely,

00:10:33   which is what would worry me.

00:10:34   So I've decided I'm gonna keep it in this mode.

00:10:38   Like it's an interesting idea.

00:10:39   It's one of these things

00:10:40   that I think will get better with time too.

00:10:43   But overall, like what I would say is if you tried it

00:10:49   and then immediately stopped using it,

00:10:51   I think it might be worth a little bit of a longer try

00:10:54   in like different environments.

00:10:56   Like one of the places that I really like is like,

00:10:58   if I'm not listening to a podcast in my studio,

00:11:03   in the bathrooms they have like their hand dryers, right?

00:11:06   And if I'm drying my hands, it like shuts that sound out,

00:11:11   which I just think is pretty cool.

00:11:12   It's like not massive of a thing to do for my life.

00:11:17   But I like that it's doing that.

00:11:18   It's being pretty smart.

00:11:21   But the thing I've actually come to value more

00:11:23   is conversational awareness.

00:11:24   I know you don't like it for the reason you don't like it.

00:11:27   - Yes, talking to animals. - When you're talking

00:11:28   to your dogs.

00:11:29   But I don't have that problem.

00:11:30   And I would say it is very, very good, right?

00:11:33   Like I'm listening to something

00:11:35   and I wanna say something to my wife

00:11:37   or I'll go to a coffee shop and I'll make an order.

00:11:39   I just start talking and I know that my AirPods

00:11:42   are gonna take care of everything else.

00:11:44   It will first lower things, then it will pause it

00:11:46   and then it will wait and play again.

00:11:48   Like I think it's pretty good.

00:11:49   - So note to Apple, if there's anybody who works

00:11:52   on this team who's listening,

00:11:54   I'd love to be able to assign conversational awareness

00:11:57   on off to a gesture on the AirPods,

00:12:00   like left AirPod squeeze.

00:12:02   So I could do right AirPod squeeze

00:12:04   for toggling the sound modes

00:12:05   and left conversational awareness,

00:12:07   because I'm about to go on an airplane.

00:12:10   Conversational awareness is great on an airplane

00:12:12   because the flight attendant comes up to you and says,

00:12:15   "Do you want something to drink?"

00:12:17   And I used it on a plane flight a while ago

00:12:21   and was like, "Oh yeah, this is really nice."

00:12:23   And then I got home and I tried to talk to my dog

00:12:25   and I was like, "Oh God, I gotta..."

00:12:26   And you gotta go into the settings to turn it off.

00:12:27   It's not convenient to do so.

00:12:29   So I would like that.

00:12:31   Adaptive mode, I love it.

00:12:33   What I try to describe it to people is

00:12:37   it is adaptive transparency.

00:12:39   So it's like a better transparency mode.

00:12:42   The idea with transparency is I'm gonna pipe everything

00:12:45   through to you as if you're not wearing these.

00:12:47   And then noise cancellation is

00:12:50   I'm gonna try to block everything I can

00:12:52   so that you're in this vacuum,

00:12:53   which leads some people like you to feel like

00:12:56   a weird kind of feeling

00:12:58   'cause it's that vacuum feeling, right?

00:13:02   And this feature is trying to split the difference

00:13:04   and I think it does a great job.

00:13:06   I don't use transparency mode anymore,

00:13:09   except at a rock concert where I turned it on.

00:13:12   But normally I toggle between adaptive and noise canceling

00:13:16   because adaptive, like when I'm out on a run,

00:13:20   adaptive works for me.

00:13:21   It is, I can hear everything that's going on around me,

00:13:26   but it's like I live near a freeway.

00:13:32   There is broadband freeway noise in the background,

00:13:35   especially on my run

00:13:36   when I run right up to next to the freeway.

00:13:38   It filters some of that stuff out,

00:13:41   making it easier to hear what I'm listening to,

00:13:42   but I can still hear the world around me.

00:13:44   I still know when cars are coming

00:13:46   and where they're coming from and all of those things,

00:13:47   which is really great.

00:13:49   In certain public spaces at an airport, something like that,

00:13:53   I might wanna be more aware of announcements

00:13:56   or something like that.

00:13:57   I don't wanna go full noise canceling necessarily,

00:14:00   but having it dampen it down a little bit is nice.

00:14:04   So I'm a big fan of it

00:14:05   and I'm using it now instead of standard transparency.

00:14:08   I think that's a really good feature.

00:14:09   Conversational awareness, yeah, I just like to turn it on

00:14:11   and off more quickly because there are modes when I want it

00:14:15   and modes when I don't.

00:14:16   - I had a question from Tim who wants to know

00:14:22   what photo slide scanning service did Jason use

00:14:26   for his mother-in-law's slide photos

00:14:28   in the 1960s as mentioned last week?

00:14:31   - Right, I specifically didn't mention it only

00:14:33   because I always am reluctant to mention something

00:14:35   when I literally tried it once,

00:14:37   everybody's results will vary

00:14:39   and I didn't compare it to anybody else's, right?

00:14:41   So all you're getting is a word of mouth like,

00:14:43   I tried Scan Cafe, it worked fine.

00:14:46   I don't know if it's better or worse

00:14:47   than any other service that's out there.

00:14:50   All I can tell you is I tried it and it worked fine.

00:14:53   So Scan Cafe is the answer.

00:14:54   - Sometimes that's all people need.

00:14:56   - I just wanna do that caveat.

00:14:57   Yeah, I know, it's just, again, it's not-

00:14:59   - I know what you mean.

00:15:00   - 'Cause it makes it sound like an endorsement

00:15:01   and the only thing I can endorse is I did it once

00:15:03   and they properly scanned the things that were in there

00:15:06   and now I have them.

00:15:07   - Yeah, you don't wanna be responsible

00:15:10   for someone's family photos being melted.

00:15:12   - I can't believe you recommended Scan Cafe

00:15:14   because they did a terrible thing to me

00:15:16   and I'm like, guys, I can't believe

00:15:19   you recommended Scan Cafe.

00:15:20   Didn't you know they're owned by vampires?

00:15:22   I'm like, look, I just looked on.

00:15:25   It was, they did the mesh.

00:15:28   Anyway, I didn't do that.

00:15:29   I looked at a bunch of sites and what their policies were

00:15:33   and what their prices were and tried them out

00:15:35   and here's what I will recommend,

00:15:38   just doubling back on this whole topic.

00:15:40   If you have stuff locked away

00:15:43   or you have relatives with stuff locked away,

00:15:45   Lauren's mom gave us these slides.

00:15:47   These are from her first marriage.

00:15:49   So she got them in the divorce basically

00:15:54   and yet they were from an unhappy time in her life

00:15:56   and they've mostly sat completely unused.

00:15:59   I mean, they're slide carousels.

00:16:01   When was the last time they pulled out

00:16:02   a slide carousel at all?

00:16:03   Probably never.

00:16:05   And she gave them to us

00:16:08   'cause they were cleaning out the garage

00:16:09   and she was basically like, this is when you were a baby.

00:16:12   You might want these and Lauren took them

00:16:15   and they sat in our garage taking up lots of space.

00:16:19   I delayed this forever.

00:16:21   I could not be happier to have gone through this process,

00:16:24   whether you use Scan Cafe or something else.

00:16:27   Literally the way it worked is they sent you,

00:16:30   part of your price includes the shipping

00:16:33   which I think is a really nice touch.

00:16:35   So you just get air bills.

00:16:36   You just get things to stick on a box

00:16:38   and take it to, in our case, the UPS store

00:16:40   which is right around the corner and just hand them in.

00:16:45   And they do have a drop-off place in some places.

00:16:48   If you're afraid they'll get lost in the mail.

00:16:50   But for me, it was just like, no, get them out of here.

00:16:52   I don't want them back.

00:16:53   I want them gone and then in digital form

00:16:56   because then we can actually look at them.

00:16:58   And there are some amazing pictures in there

00:17:00   that were lost forever until they got unearthed in this way.

00:17:05   So I'm a real proponent of the idea

00:17:07   of scanning in old negatives or even prints.

00:17:11   It's better if you've got a backup, if those exist.

00:17:14   Some of them exist as prints

00:17:15   'cause then you're taking a risk.

00:17:17   But boy, in the end, we live in an era

00:17:20   where if they're not in your photo library, they don't exist.

00:17:23   So your digital photo library.

00:17:25   So I was very happy to do it.

00:17:27   And at one point here, I'm gonna round up all of our

00:17:31   negatives and send them all in too from the film era.

00:17:33   - Matt wrote in to say,

00:17:35   Jason's story about user forums hits home.

00:17:38   I just wanted to say that not all of Adobe's forums

00:17:41   are the same, it varies by product.

00:17:43   I work on the Premiere Pro engineering team

00:17:46   and every new forum post goes directly

00:17:47   to a Slack channel that we monitor.

00:17:49   We can't reply to all of them.

00:17:51   We won't be spot one where we know we can help.

00:17:52   We jump in and do so.

00:17:54   I wanted to give Adobe the opportunity

00:17:56   to speak for themselves.

00:17:57   - I appreciate this, the idea that maybe it varies by product

00:18:00   and I was really, my biggest user forum complaints

00:18:03   were about Apple's forums.

00:18:05   I was looking up something else over the weekend.

00:18:07   I heard from somebody who said they just do a,

00:18:09   in Google, they do minus site colon discussions.apple.com.

00:18:13   Like search Apple, but not that Apple.

00:18:15   I don't want those.

00:18:16   - I mean, really these days, I think realistically

00:18:20   what you're looking for is the subreddits.

00:18:22   It seems to be where that is,

00:18:24   where the majority of useful stuff,

00:18:26   even though it's also a lot of that nonsense,

00:18:28   but the upvoting, downvoting system

00:18:30   can deal with a lot of that.

00:18:32   - Yeah, there are, yeah, I think you're right.

00:18:35   But here's the thing, this is why I did that,

00:18:37   I did that rant about those user forums is,

00:18:40   they had this veneer of being official

00:18:42   and they allow the actual companies to link to them

00:18:46   and say, oh yes, we'll use our forums.

00:18:48   And I don't think, like I said last week,

00:18:51   I actually think that that's kind of giving up

00:18:54   and you're right, there are better places

00:18:55   to discuss this stuff than the official forums.

00:18:58   And you end up with these people who have 20,000 points

00:19:01   and seem super official, but they're not,

00:19:04   and they're not always particularly helpful.

00:19:06   And I did hear from a bunch of people who were like,

00:19:08   oh boy, I know what you're talking about and it's terrible.

00:19:11   So anyway, yes.

00:19:13   Oh yeah, yeah, we did some,

00:19:16   I did a couple of rants last week.

00:19:20   I saw somebody complain, they're like,

00:19:22   oh, every week they're just ranting about stuff.

00:19:24   And I'm like, what?

00:19:25   Did it once.

00:19:27   Anyway, a lot of positivity about it.

00:19:28   - Maybe they think every episode's a rant.

00:19:31   - I'm not gonna do a rant every week and that's fine,

00:19:33   but it just worked out that way.

00:19:36   I don't know, I don't know why.

00:19:37   - I've never liked the word rant, I don't like it.

00:19:40   - Yeah. - I don't like it.

00:19:42   It's not one of my favorites.

00:19:44   Sonoma video reactions, so the camera,

00:19:47   little video reaction things that you can do with Sonoma.

00:19:51   They're being frowned upon by online therapy company,

00:19:53   Simple Practice, who now shows an interstitial warning

00:19:57   before calls.

00:19:58   So we saw this in a Slack that we're in

00:20:01   and it was actually from Matt Howey, who is--

00:20:04   - Matt Howey, he posted it on Mastodon too.

00:20:06   This is in my to write list for six colors,

00:20:09   'cause it's such a fascinating idea of a,

00:20:12   I think maybe misguided or misunderstood choice by Apple

00:20:17   in building this feature where they didn't really think

00:20:20   about all of the details

00:20:22   when they created a new feature

00:20:23   and then turned it on by default

00:20:25   without a lot of warnings about it, yeah.

00:20:28   - Because Matt was mentioning it,

00:20:31   he posted it on Mastodon and led to The Verge

00:20:33   writing this up where someone was on a call

00:20:36   with their therapist and the therapist gave a thumbs up

00:20:39   and fireworks started exploding behind them

00:20:41   during a very awkward moment

00:20:45   and I wanted to just jump in and say

00:20:46   I had the exact same thing happen to me.

00:20:49   I was on a call with my therapist and all of a sudden

00:20:52   balloons started appearing behind me.

00:20:53   - Balloons!

00:20:54   - And he said--

00:20:55   - Was it the happiest therapy session ever?

00:20:57   - No, no.

00:20:59   And so I think, I don't even know what causes balloons

00:21:03   by the way, like I couldn't work it out.

00:21:05   - That is, what is that?

00:21:08   Two thumbs up?

00:21:10   Or is that fireworks?

00:21:11   - I think that's fireworks.

00:21:13   I think it might be the peace sign, I think,

00:21:15   or something like that.

00:21:16   But nevertheless, look, this is a good feature

00:21:19   and it is a fun feature and I will say,

00:21:21   someone in the discourse, isn't it relatively easy

00:21:23   to disable, that is really not a great,

00:21:26   it's just not a helpful thing to say

00:21:28   if you were in a therapy session and you weren't,

00:21:31   and me, person who cares about this stuff,

00:21:35   one, it's turned on automatically, right?

00:21:38   When you upgrade to Sonoma.

00:21:40   It was, I think, I've been using Sonoma for two days

00:21:43   and I do want it on sometimes,

00:21:45   so I do want the feature on 'cause I think it's funny,

00:21:48   but the idea that you could,

00:21:50   it's just not context aware, it's a good feature,

00:21:54   but it's just like, it's also an awkward feature.

00:21:57   I think it would maybe be better to have it as like,

00:22:01   opt in, opt out on certain apps and services,

00:22:04   which I don't know if it's possible to do,

00:22:07   but I just don't really, this is an interesting feature,

00:22:11   it's a cool thing that it does,

00:22:13   but it also is a little bit weird.

00:22:17   - Yeah, I think there's a reactions pop-up that happens

00:22:22   when you first connect a camera your first time in Sonoma,

00:22:25   but we also know that everybody ignores those

00:22:29   and clicks through them, right?

00:22:30   They're like, 'cause you're in the act of doing something,

00:22:32   get me to my thing, right?

00:22:34   But we also know that if you don't turn on the feature,

00:22:37   it is unlikely to ever be turned on

00:22:39   because people don't go past the defaults very often.

00:22:43   Also saying, yes, as you said,

00:22:44   saying it can be turned off is one thing,

00:22:46   but knowing how to turn it off is an entirely other thing.

00:22:50   And the moment happened regardless, right?

00:22:53   So I think this is interesting.

00:22:56   I agree that there should probably be an API

00:22:59   that tells Apple, 'cause remember,

00:23:00   this is happening in the video subsystem,

00:23:02   it's not happening in the apps.

00:23:03   The apps are just getting camera

00:23:05   and the camera has been processed by the system.

00:23:08   So giving app developers an API to control this

00:23:11   or turn it off so that, for example,

00:23:14   a teletherapy app could say, no, right?

00:23:19   Just no.

00:23:22   Or a Zoom or something like that

00:23:24   could have it be in Zoom preferences

00:23:26   where you might look for it,

00:23:27   even though it's actually up in the menu bar.

00:23:29   There are, and you could maybe set it per account

00:23:33   or something like that.

00:23:33   There's probably more controls

00:23:35   that could be done here about this.

00:23:37   I'm fascinated 'cause I imagine Apple was like,

00:23:40   "No, this is great, we'll just turn it on."

00:23:42   And wasn't thinking about people

00:23:45   having intense therapy sessions

00:23:46   and then random animations are happening in the background.

00:23:50   So yeah, it's fascinating.

00:23:54   Again, I don't think this is one of those like,

00:23:55   "Oh, how dare Apple?"

00:23:57   But it's like, this is the challenge, right?

00:23:58   'Cause they want the people to use the new feature,

00:24:00   they think it's fun, they turned it on.

00:24:04   I think for reasons, I think there's a warning,

00:24:06   but the truth is people are still gonna be caught unawares

00:24:10   and some of those contexts are not great.

00:24:12   - Yeah, because I do want the feature.

00:24:14   I do want the feature, but I'm not necessarily thinking

00:24:19   when I'm accepting it as like in my mind during FaceTime

00:24:23   that when I'm having my Google Meet calls with my therapist

00:24:27   that I could, 'cause here's the thing,

00:24:30   you don't necessarily think about the fact

00:24:33   that you might just hold your hand to your face

00:24:36   and then the balloons go off,

00:24:37   which I think is what happened to me, right?

00:24:39   Because I just put my hand to my face

00:24:41   and then all of a sudden there were balloons

00:24:43   or something like that.

00:24:44   - I thought there were balloons for some, it was a right,

00:24:47   it was not now computer, not now.

00:24:49   Again, I think letting the individual apps

00:24:55   kind of make their decisions might be good.

00:24:58   I don't know, I'm sure they had the question of like,

00:25:02   the first time this is gonna be triggered,

00:25:03   do we not trigger it and then put up a dialogue?

00:25:05   And you're like, "Yeah, but you're in the middle

00:25:07   "of a video meeting right then."

00:25:09   So people aren't gonna wanna pay attention.

00:25:12   Do you wait until after it's triggered for the first time?

00:25:16   Do you wait in a delay

00:25:18   after they're in their first usage of video

00:25:20   but it's done to say, "Hey, we've got this new feature."

00:25:24   It's not an easy answer, but it leads to instances

00:25:28   like what you experienced or what Matt experienced,

00:25:30   which I just, yeah,

00:25:31   I think it's a tough decision-making chain.

00:25:34   - Yeah, and it's a good feature.

00:25:35   It's a fun thing to have.

00:25:37   It's just like, and I don't think this should mean

00:25:40   that they do or don't make it,

00:25:42   but this is the result of making a decision like that.

00:25:46   'Cause Ramon in the Discord is like,

00:25:49   "It should just be limited to FaceTime."

00:25:51   I wouldn't want it to be the case.

00:25:52   I actually am happier

00:25:53   that they've baked it into the camera system,

00:25:56   but this is the downside of doing that.

00:25:59   - Right, and also talk about having

00:26:01   a challenging decision to make.

00:26:04   I believe that the settings on it are,

00:26:08   are they global or are they per app?

00:26:11   And that's part of the challenge too, is if you think,

00:26:14   I think they're per app,

00:26:16   which means you think you turned it off

00:26:19   and then you're in a different app and it does it again

00:26:21   and you're like, "What?"

00:26:22   The good thing is if it's per app,

00:26:24   you can have it on in FaceTime and Zoom

00:26:26   and not have it on in Chrome or whatever, right?

00:26:29   And that would work.

00:26:30   For the record, if you're using Sonoma,

00:26:32   when a webcam is in use, a blue camera icon

00:26:35   appears in your menu bar.

00:26:37   And if you click on it,

00:26:38   you can see all of your camera controls.

00:26:41   And there are lots of them.

00:26:42   There's some really great stuff in there.

00:26:43   It's a new feature.

00:26:44   You can like zoom and not use center stage,

00:26:47   but instead have it center you one time, click to center.

00:26:50   And then there's reactions and you can turn them off.

00:26:55   You can turn them off.

00:26:56   And if they're on and you don't wanna make the gestures,

00:26:58   you can also trigger them without making the gestures

00:27:01   from that same menu.

00:27:02   There's lots of stuff in there,

00:27:04   but you have to know that there's the blue menu

00:27:06   with the camera icon and that there are controls under it.

00:27:11   But I do think it's per app, which means that,

00:27:14   if you turn it off once, you haven't turned it off forever.

00:27:18   You've only turned it off forever for that app.

00:27:20   And you need to keep that in mind too.

00:27:21   So if you do all your family stuff on FaceTime

00:27:23   and that's great, and you do all your corporate stuff

00:27:25   on Zoom and that's not great,

00:27:26   you can, I believe it's per app and you can do that.

00:27:31   We're not on video now, so we don't know.

00:27:33   (upbeat music)

00:27:35   - Good is brought to you by Electric.

00:27:38   When you are leading a small business,

00:27:41   it's not all glitz and glamor.

00:27:42   In fact, sometimes it's a matter of spending hours

00:27:45   onboarding your employees,

00:27:46   which are well equipped to deal with,

00:27:48   but maybe you don't have all of the time to deal with it.

00:27:52   Because building a business takes work.

00:27:54   You wanna make sure that you're focused

00:27:56   on what's coming next for you and your employees,

00:27:59   so you can take your business to the next level.

00:28:01   And sometimes just keep it going from day to day.

00:28:03   Your attention is pulled in different directions.

00:28:05   That is the reality of leading a business.

00:28:08   The team over at Electric,

00:28:09   they know that small businesses like yours

00:28:12   face these challenges.

00:28:13   And that's why they're on hand to help

00:28:15   with all of the time consuming parts of your business,

00:28:18   like standardized device security setup

00:28:21   with best in class device management software.

00:28:23   So you're able to implement best practices across the board

00:28:26   and be ready to scale.

00:28:27   They have employee onboarding and off boarding solutions

00:28:30   done for you,

00:28:32   which will save you an average of eight hours per request.

00:28:34   Electric will also help you keep a single point

00:28:37   of visibility into your IT environment

00:28:39   so you can control your devices, network and applications

00:28:42   with simplified reporting to allow you to achieve

00:28:45   and maintain compliance, which is important stuff.

00:28:49   Electric also has proactive IT recommendations

00:28:52   and automated workflows to make your IT easy to manage,

00:28:55   even for non-technical users.

00:28:57   If you're hearing this and you think that your company

00:28:59   could use some of these services,

00:29:00   but you're not sure how to get started,

00:29:02   Electric also have experts on hand to guide you

00:29:05   through the process of establishing standardized IT processes

00:29:09   for your organization.

00:29:10   Maybe you don't know how to get,

00:29:13   I mean, honestly, I wouldn't know how to do this.

00:29:16   I'm a very technical user.

00:29:18   I don't know how would be best to set up

00:29:20   a standardized IT process for my business

00:29:22   and all the people within it and all the devices.

00:29:25   I don't know how to do that.

00:29:26   I wouldn't wanna take the time to learn

00:29:28   'cause that's gonna take my attention away

00:29:29   from other places.

00:29:30   This is why Electric is great.

00:29:32   They do all of this hard stuff for you,

00:29:34   so you don't have to.

00:29:35   You don't have to take the time to learn it.

00:29:36   You don't have to take the time to manage it.

00:29:38   All you need to do is go to electric.ai/upgrade.

00:29:43   That's where you can sign up.

00:29:44   And for upgrade listeners,

00:29:46   Electric is offering a free pair of Beats Solo 3 headphones

00:29:48   for taking a qualified meeting.

00:29:50   That's electric.ai/upgrade.

00:29:53   Go there now to get your free pair

00:29:55   of Beats Solo 3 headphones today for scheduling a meeting.

00:29:58   A thanks to Electric for their support of this show

00:30:00   and Relay FM.

00:30:01   I have a room around up Jason Snow.

00:30:05   There's some spicy stuff in here today.

00:30:07   - Ooh, yee-haw.

00:30:09   - So we're gonna start off by talking about an article

00:30:14   written by Jeff Poo, who is,

00:30:17   well, there's an analyst, Jeff Poo,

00:30:18   who's predicting that the first Apple product

00:30:21   to get a micro LED display

00:30:23   is still going to be the Apple Watch,

00:30:25   but it may not be until 2025.

00:30:28   The reason I wanted to mention this

00:30:30   is 'cause I'm thinking maybe over the next few months or so,

00:30:33   or next 12 months, to be looking out for things

00:30:36   that may or may not be in that rumored Apple Watch X

00:30:40   that Mark Gorman was talking about.

00:30:42   And one of the things that we were wondering

00:30:44   is if it was going to get this new display technology

00:30:47   and it looks like, no, that it would miss that.

00:30:50   And what I wanted to ask you is,

00:30:51   do you think that a new display,

00:30:53   some kind of micro LED display,

00:30:55   which would be better clarity, better color,

00:31:00   and probably a better battery,

00:31:02   do you think we would see this come to the Apple Watch Ultra

00:31:06   or the regular Apple Watch first?

00:31:08   What do you think makes the most sense?

00:31:10   - I don't know.

00:31:13   I mean, it depends on a lot of things.

00:31:14   It depends on availability.

00:31:15   It depends on how much it costs, if it's expensive.

00:31:18   Ultra seems to be a great place to introduce these features

00:31:22   'cause it's more expensive, right?

00:31:24   Unless they've got a fancy,

00:31:26   the Apple Watch X 10 whatever rumor is interesting

00:31:30   because the idea there is there's like

00:31:32   a next gen Apple Watch coming

00:31:33   and would they do it like the iPhone 10

00:31:35   where they'd keep the series around,

00:31:36   but then they'd have this new watch

00:31:38   that was like the future watch and it was expensive.

00:31:41   And that's different from the Ultra, I guess.

00:31:44   I don't know.

00:31:45   I guess.

00:31:46   - The Apple Watch X, which I'm calling it for now,

00:31:48   just because it's easier in my brain,

00:31:50   that is a terrifying prospect for me, honestly,

00:31:52   'cause I'm really loving my Apple Watch Ultra

00:31:55   for the battery life, especially.

00:31:58   And I'm wondering if they bring out this Apple Watch X

00:32:01   with these new features,

00:32:02   will I have to go away from the Ultra

00:32:04   to get the best Apple Watch again?

00:32:06   - I would hope not.

00:32:08   - Well, I mean, but what about the battery life, right?

00:32:10   Like I feel like that's gonna be a thing,

00:32:11   which is because this thing is big

00:32:14   is why it's got the biggest battery life.

00:32:17   And so if they made like a new one in the regular line,

00:32:20   which is this new next gen one,

00:32:22   I can't imagine it would necessarily

00:32:23   have the biggest battery.

00:32:25   I mean, it reminds me of the iPhone X

00:32:28   where I had to go down in screen size.

00:32:30   - Right, right, exactly.

00:32:32   It's also possible that they will try

00:32:34   some of this stuff out in the Ultra

00:32:36   and then bring it to a next gen Apple Watch base model

00:32:41   either simultaneously or at the next cycle.

00:32:45   But you're right, it's possible it'll happen a year before.

00:32:51   Even Mark Gurman who talked about this Apple Watch 10 thing,

00:32:54   it seems like everybody's sort of like,

00:32:56   "Yeah, maybe not next year," right?

00:33:00   Like this seems like,

00:33:02   I read this as being a kind of a corroboration

00:33:04   of the idea that next gen Apple Watch,

00:33:08   whatever they wanna call it,

00:33:09   may not happen until 25 at this point, right?

00:33:13   Like there's the tech that they wanna have in it,

00:33:16   that it's their real kind of like redesign of the concept

00:33:19   for the first time since the beginning.

00:33:21   I mean, the Ultra is that too, right?

00:33:24   But like for the regular watch

00:33:26   to do a different version of it.

00:33:28   And I don't know, I mean,

00:33:31   I think this is a fascinating story

00:33:33   because there's the question too of,

00:33:35   is this a replacement for the Apple Watch series

00:33:38   or is it another model, right?

00:33:41   Because we saw that Apple really varied the iPhone models,

00:33:48   that there's lots of different iPhone models now.

00:33:50   Would they do that with the Apple Watch

00:33:52   or would it be more like a replacement for series,

00:33:54   but they'll also keep series around for a little while

00:33:57   because they can get that one cheaper

00:34:00   and then they've got the sort of a spread going on

00:34:03   between the cheaper watch and then the nice watch

00:34:06   and then the nice big watch.

00:34:08   I don't know, they've got a lot of decisions to make here,

00:34:10   but I look at a rumor like this

00:34:14   and I think maybe this dream of theirs

00:34:16   of reinvigorating the base model series

00:34:20   is not gonna happen next year.

00:34:22   - All right, so we're recording on Monday.

00:34:26   - Yep, October 16th. - Which I think is helpful

00:34:28   to note again for this topic

00:34:31   because there are lots and lots of conflicting rumors

00:34:34   as to whether we will be getting new Apple products

00:34:37   this week, namely iPads.

00:34:39   So Mark Gurman says no.

00:34:43   9to5Mac says yes and not only yes,

00:34:46   but it will be on Tuesday, so tomorrow, the 17th.

00:34:50   - Huh.

00:34:51   - So Filipe Esposito at 9to5Mac had a report

00:34:54   that with the next set of iPad,

00:34:57   this rumor came slightly before the date rumor,

00:34:59   but this is setting the stage for then what comes next.

00:35:02   So Esposito says that a refresh to the iPad Mini

00:35:06   will happen of an A16 chip.

00:35:09   We'll likely see the same thing for the base model iPad

00:35:12   and then at some point over the coming months,

00:35:14   we may see a bit of a refresh to the iPad Air,

00:35:17   a quote from 9to5Mac, "Details are vague at this point,

00:35:20   "but it suggests that Apple may be considering

00:35:23   "introducing a larger version of the iPad Air

00:35:26   "or a more expensive model with better specs."

00:35:28   So this is something that apparently Apple is testing,

00:35:32   but that's not necessarily expected for this week.

00:35:34   If there is gonna be an update to the iPad Air,

00:35:36   it will be giving the M2 chip to the iPad Air.

00:35:41   Then Chance Miller at 9to5Mac reports on a post from Weibo

00:35:45   that suggests that changes may be made

00:35:47   to the upcoming iPad Mini to fix the jelly scrolling issue.

00:35:51   Apparently to fix this,

00:35:52   they will change the screen assembly direction.

00:35:55   So Chance says, "For those unfamiliar,

00:35:58   "jelly scrolling is when half of the device's display

00:36:00   "refreshes noticeably slower than the other half.

00:36:03   "This results in a sort of wobble effect,

00:36:05   "hence the jelly scrolling name."

00:36:07   So I have this on my iPad Mini,

00:36:08   so sometimes if I'm scrolling a list of things,

00:36:11   the display kind of down the middle

00:36:14   looks like it's catching up with itself.

00:36:16   - Yeah, it's a little jagged kind of thing.

00:36:18   - Now I just, in general, in the iPad Mini,

00:36:21   want a higher quality panel.

00:36:22   Now I'm not talking about micro LED

00:36:27   or OLED or anything like that.

00:36:29   I just think that the screen on the iPad Mini

00:36:32   is not as crisp as other iPads.

00:36:35   I think it is a lower quality panel,

00:36:37   at least it is to my eyes.

00:36:38   So I would like to see them,

00:36:40   and hopefully this would improve that.

00:36:43   I am aware that for anything more serious,

00:36:46   I'll be waiting some time.

00:36:47   Apparently OLED panels have been rumored for 2026

00:36:51   for anything other than the 2024 iPad Pro.

00:36:54   So that could take a while.

00:36:56   But there's more.

00:36:58   But wait, there's more. - There's more.

00:36:59   - According to Joe Rossignol at MacRumors,

00:37:01   Mac Otakara is reporting that, quote,

00:37:04   "Rather than an update to the iPad itself,

00:37:07   the Apple Pencil 3 will be launched,

00:37:09   which will come with a replaceable magnetic tip."

00:37:12   So we got rumors all over the place, which is rare.

00:37:15   - Yeah, so it's, Gurman's like, mm-mm,

00:37:18   not gonna happen next year.

00:37:19   - Mark Gurman says that Apple does not have enough stuff

00:37:23   to bother, like to warrant doing anything.

00:37:24   - Right, right, which is funny because, I mean,

00:37:27   if you've got new iPads and you can sell them

00:37:30   in the holiday quarter, I think you'd want to,

00:37:32   because those are good holiday purchases, I feel like.

00:37:35   A new iPad Mini or an iPad Air,

00:37:38   I could see the argument there,

00:37:41   but maybe they're like, no, you know, we're okay.

00:37:43   We're gonna wait on those and do them next year

00:37:45   and we'll build up stock and we're gonna be fine with it.

00:37:49   But then there's the other report that it is gonna happen

00:37:52   tomorrow as we're recording this.

00:37:54   And then in comes, in slides the Apple Pencil to say,

00:37:57   "Not so fast, what if it's just me?"

00:38:00   Which is, doesn't it strike you as weird,

00:38:03   the idea that you do an Apple Pencil announcement

00:38:07   without iPads, that doesn't,

00:38:09   I don't understand that at all.

00:38:10   - Honestly, I think that this might be a translation error.

00:38:14   Or something's going on there, because like,

00:38:18   why would you just have an Apple Pencil 3?

00:38:22   Like that's the, and you know iPads?

00:38:24   That seems weird. - What is the pressing issue

00:38:26   that you would release an Apple Pencil 3 now,

00:38:29   but no iPads, right?

00:38:31   - With replaceable magnetic tips, okay.

00:38:35   - Yeah, no, I wanna also say the Apple Pencil 3 would work.

00:38:40   Is somebody saying that the new base model iPad

00:38:49   would be updated?

00:38:50   'Cause that's the one that I don't think makes any sense,

00:38:52   right, because--

00:38:54   - So 9to5Mac, this was, okay, so this was slightly before,

00:38:57   but they were sticking with, I believe,

00:39:00   Chance Miller, who's in a discord,

00:39:01   can tell me wrong if I'm wrong.

00:39:03   - Yeah, friend of the show.

00:39:05   - The base model iPad would get an A16 chip in it.

00:39:08   - Yeah, well, the question with the base model iPad is,

00:39:11   is it really gonna stay with the old Apple Pencil?

00:39:15   Right, right?

00:39:18   And would you announce that with the new Apple Pencil?

00:39:21   - My word, I forgot about that.

00:39:22   - The base model iPad, remember, it's got the adapter.

00:39:24   - It doesn't have the charging thing on the side, does it?

00:39:26   - It's got the weird adapter

00:39:29   that takes the original pencil with lightning

00:39:32   and puts it in a little janky adapter

00:39:34   so it can attach to the USB-C port, right?

00:39:37   So yeah, I feel like, I don't know.

00:39:44   I'm fascinated to watch that

00:39:46   'cause like, why is that still a thing?

00:39:47   Why, why is that still a thing?

00:39:50   Maybe they have, one thing you could do

00:39:54   from an Apple Pencil 3 might be to engineer

00:39:56   something in it that, if the iPad doesn't support charging

00:40:01   via the standard charging method,

00:40:06   maybe there's an alternate charging and pairing method

00:40:09   that's built into the Pencil 3

00:40:10   that lets them get rid of the Pencil 1.

00:40:13   I don't know what that would be,

00:40:15   but something like a little charge dock or something?

00:40:18   - Well, I think it would just be better

00:40:20   if they just put the magnetic charging thing on the iPad.

00:40:22   Like that's the way to go, right?

00:40:25   Just put the magnetic conduction charging.

00:40:27   If it's on the iPad Mini, I mean,

00:40:28   I know the iPad Mini is a relatively expensive product,

00:40:31   but I think that that's gotta happen at some point,

00:40:34   and so I would hope that it would happen now.

00:40:36   - Also, my question is, if they,

00:40:39   so it's fascinating that this may or may not happen,

00:40:41   but iPad Air and iPad Mini support the Pencil 2

00:40:43   with the magnetic charging on the side.

00:40:46   The iPad low version, right,

00:40:51   had a whole different system

00:40:53   where it moved the camera to the other orientation,

00:40:58   but the speculation is that that prevented it

00:41:01   from having the magnetic charging and there's all that.

00:41:03   So that's one of the things for the iPad.

00:41:05   We gotta get the iPad back in our brains

00:41:07   'cause this has been a year

00:41:08   without iPad announcements at all.

00:41:10   But there's a question of like,

00:41:11   where is this whole thing going?

00:41:13   If there is a new iPad Air and a new iPad Mini,

00:41:16   do the camera positions change?

00:41:19   If there's a new Pencil, does the charging situation change?

00:41:22   It's not a given that Pencil 3 will charge

00:41:25   by the same method as Pencil 2, right?

00:41:28   Like they could engineer that thing out

00:41:31   and have some other way that you charge it,

00:41:33   which would then get rid of the issue

00:41:37   on the low-end iPad as well.

00:41:39   So it's all really fascinating,

00:41:40   but then you throw in the idea

00:41:42   that somebody's out there going, no, no, nothing.

00:41:46   Germin is saying that.

00:41:48   I wonder what the source of all this is.

00:41:50   I hope there are new iPads

00:41:51   just because it's fun to have new iPads

00:41:53   and to talk about them.

00:41:54   But I am fascinated by the idea

00:41:55   that some people think it's gonna happen

00:41:57   and some people think it's not gonna happen.

00:41:59   But that's what everybody should keep in mind

00:42:01   if some announcement does happen

00:42:02   is like, how does the Pencil charge?

00:42:04   How does it attach?

00:42:05   Is that different if there's a new Pencil?

00:42:08   And did they move the camera, right?

00:42:11   'Cause that's a thing they did.

00:42:12   'Cause that iPad has the weird thing

00:42:16   where it's got like a kickstand back case

00:42:18   plus a thing that you attach that does the keyboard.

00:42:21   It's a really unusual product.

00:42:23   So I guess we'll keep an eye.

00:42:27   But I also saw a rumor that said no base level iPad,

00:42:30   only the two that actually need,

00:42:32   that are the oldest and need the most help,

00:42:34   which is the Mini and the Air.

00:42:36   - I think realistically- - So you get an M2 Air

00:42:37   and a A16 Mini.

00:42:39   - What we can say at this point is

00:42:41   everyone's saying everything.

00:42:43   - Except iPad Pro, which isn't gonna happen till next year.

00:42:47   - Correct.

00:42:48   I have another report from Mako Takara,

00:42:50   which is about the iMac.

00:42:53   They have said that the next revision of the iMac

00:42:56   will "likely be available with M2 and M2 Pro chip options,

00:43:01   Thunderbolt 4 ports, Wi-Fi 6E support,

00:43:05   and Bluetooth 5.3 support."

00:43:07   As Joe Rossino at MacRumors notes,

00:43:09   this conflicts with Mark Gurman's reporting

00:43:11   that the next iMac would feature an M3 chip.

00:43:14   No matter what though,

00:43:14   it seems unlikely that these would arrive in October.

00:43:18   No one's suggesting that for the iMac.

00:43:20   - It's interesting 'cause the iMac this fall

00:43:23   has been discussed.

00:43:24   It makes sense in one way.

00:43:30   The M2 rumor is fascinating

00:43:32   because they've not done an M2 iMac.

00:43:36   And I wonder about the status of the M3.

00:43:39   I wonder if one of the things that's going on

00:43:42   is that the M3, you didn't even mention this,

00:43:45   but there was also a discussion.

00:43:47   I saw a report.

00:43:49   It might've been in Mark Gurman's report

00:43:51   that MacBook Pro with M3

00:43:55   is going to precede MacBook Air with M3

00:43:59   and is gonna come early next year,

00:44:02   but the MacBook Air with M3 won't come until summer,

00:44:07   which is a wild thought, right?

00:44:09   That there would be a,

00:44:10   that the Pro chips would ship

00:44:12   before the Air with the base chip would ship.

00:44:16   That's a wild idea too.

00:44:17   I don't know what's going on with that,

00:44:20   but let's talk about the M3

00:44:22   and the three nanometer process

00:44:24   and whatever's going on with that

00:44:25   'cause we haven't seen that.

00:44:27   One scenario for the M3 getting a delay

00:44:32   might be to do an M2 iMac, right?

00:44:37   Like that might be one scenario is look,

00:44:41   M3 and the iMac, like, oh boy, that's gonna take forever,

00:44:46   but instead an M2 iMac, which would be fine.

00:44:48   I mean, that would be a nice update for the iMac,

00:44:51   especially if there's a Pro option,

00:44:53   but I don't know, it's just something,

00:44:57   it feels to me like something's going on here

00:44:58   and we can't really see it now,

00:45:00   but I suspect that it's Apple rejiggering

00:45:02   what it's gonna do with M3.

00:45:05   And I don't know whether that has to do

00:45:06   with something going on,

00:45:07   literally with the making of the M3 chip

00:45:10   or availability or volume of the M3 chip,

00:45:14   but I wonder, 'cause for a while it sounded like

00:45:17   the reports were M3 this fall.

00:45:19   And now it seems like, no M3 this fall.

00:45:25   And maybe even potentially higher end M3 chips

00:45:29   before the base M3 chips,

00:45:30   which is not something that they've done in the past

00:45:32   and makes me wonder about, again, chip yields and volumes

00:45:36   and how much is going into the iPhone production line

00:45:40   and the rest.

00:45:41   I don't know, it's a real mystery here.

00:45:44   And will there be products announced in October at all?

00:45:47   I think at the low end, there's none,

00:45:49   followed by just the pencil.

00:45:50   And then the high end, you've got multiple iPads

00:45:54   plus a Mac of some sort, maybe an iMac.

00:45:57   But no event per se, but they can, again,

00:46:01   they can release these things with videos

00:46:03   and press releases and they can do them.

00:46:05   They don't have to do them in one go.

00:46:06   They could do iPads one week and Macs the next week

00:46:08   and that wouldn't be unprecedented at all.

00:46:12   - We take a left turn now

00:46:13   and visit the sheriff.

00:46:16   Mark Gurman said that Apple's focus

00:46:18   for the next version of the Vision Pro,

00:46:21   while very early on in the process, of course,

00:46:24   is to focus on reducing the weight of the device overall.

00:46:27   Apple is also investigating how a version two

00:46:30   could have integrated prescription lenses

00:46:32   rather than snap-in lenses.

00:46:35   Apparently from an operational perspective,

00:46:37   having the many, many, many lens options available

00:46:41   in numbers for shipping is very complicated.

00:46:44   So they are investigating what a build to order process

00:46:47   could look like.

00:46:48   So you would submit your prescription

00:46:49   and they would make you a lens and install it and ship it.

00:46:52   However, this causes more problems

00:46:55   with prescription changes because then how would somebody,

00:47:00   would they send their device in to get the lens changed

00:47:03   and also device sharing becomes basically not possible

00:47:07   at that point. - Right.

00:47:09   It's hard.

00:47:10   - I just took, I got a Quest 3.

00:47:15   - Oh, okay.

00:47:16   - Very exciting.

00:47:17   Maybe we can do a Horizon Workrooms meeting sometime.

00:47:20   - Maybe we can.

00:47:21   - Maybe, I don't know.

00:47:22   - You have a better hardware than me apparently, so.

00:47:25   - Sorry.

00:47:26   No eye tracking though.

00:47:27   So, and I pre-ordered it and it arrived and I was like, oh,

00:47:32   and I realized I had to go online to Zenni Optical

00:47:35   and order my lenses for it because otherwise

00:47:39   I have to wear my glasses while I'm wearing it.

00:47:40   And that's not as fun.

00:47:42   I learned my lesson with the Quest 2.

00:47:44   And I had that thought about Apple, which is, you know,

00:47:46   Apple, typical Apple wants to kind of control the process.

00:47:49   So they got like, oh, there's Zeiss lenses,

00:47:51   but it sounds like what they want to do is sort of have it

00:47:53   be all in the Apple process.

00:47:55   Whereas what Meta has done is basically said,

00:47:57   do you want prescription lenses?

00:47:59   Use our partner.

00:48:00   And that's like, someone else is doing it.

00:48:02   Someone else is making those.

00:48:04   They've worked with a partner.

00:48:06   And this is one of those cases where maybe,

00:48:09   I mean, given the volumes, I mean, who knows, right?

00:48:12   Like if they're intending for this to be a high volume

00:48:15   product eventually, they're going to have to deal with this.

00:48:17   Do they want to control the whole thing?

00:48:19   Do they want to use a partner?

00:48:20   It's certainly nicer to just,

00:48:22   if I could have put in my prescription and placed my order

00:48:24   with Meta right upfront and gotten shipped with the lenses,

00:48:27   that would have been better,

00:48:29   even if they were snap-in lenses.

00:48:31   I'm not sure,

00:48:33   I'm not sure why this is better than just allowing you

00:48:36   to order the lenses and have them pre-snapped in

00:48:39   or included in the box,

00:48:41   rather than having it be like a part

00:48:44   that you have to replace.

00:48:45   That seems complicated, but it's an operations issue.

00:48:49   You know, this is, it's just going to be,

00:48:52   it's fascinating, right?

00:48:53   Like how does, Apple has a way of doing things

00:48:56   and then a product like this challenges

00:48:57   some of those preconceptions, I think.

00:48:59   - And to make a future cheaper version,

00:49:03   Mark Gurman is saying in the 1500 to 2000 range,

00:49:06   this is separate from version two of the Vision Pro,

00:49:09   this is to make the Vision product.

00:49:11   Apple would look to try and remove the external display

00:49:16   and reduce the overall sensors and cameras on the system

00:49:19   as a possibility.

00:49:21   A quote from Mark Gurman,

00:49:22   "Apple is prioritizing the development of a cheaper model,

00:49:24   even at the expense of other initiatives

00:49:27   like the AR glasses project."

00:49:28   Which I mean, obviously, right?

00:49:31   - Yeah, he had another line in there

00:49:32   about the AR glasses project,

00:49:33   which is basically like the AR glasses project,

00:49:36   which doesn't have things that will exist anytime soon,

00:49:39   like it's just not going to happen.

00:49:40   - Of course you would prioritize this.

00:49:43   - Of course you would.

00:49:44   Now, the big change here, right?

00:49:46   Is that we had an earlier report a few months ago

00:49:48   where they were talking about like,

00:49:49   what are the fundamentals of Vision Pro

00:49:51   that we wouldn't change?

00:49:52   And one of them was the external display.

00:49:55   We're like, oh no, no, no,

00:49:56   that's part of the whole value of the Vision Pro.

00:49:58   We got to keep that.

00:49:59   And all of us at the time were like, really?

00:50:01   That's gotta be real expensive for something

00:50:03   that is not necessary for the user

00:50:07   and is more part of your story

00:50:08   about how wonderful this product is.

00:50:11   And based on this report,

00:50:13   it sounds like maybe they caved on that.

00:50:15   Like whoever was like insisting on that was told,

00:50:20   "No, we have to ship a cheaper version.

00:50:22   If we're ever gonna ship this thing in volume,

00:50:25   you're gonna have to give up

00:50:26   your precious external display."

00:50:28   And Mike, it makes me wonder

00:50:30   if the external display is gonna be a one and done

00:50:34   for the Vision Pro.

00:50:35   - I don't know.

00:50:35   Here's the thing.

00:50:36   My feeling on this is,

00:50:38   like I'm seeing a lot of people online being like,

00:50:40   "Oh, so it wasn't core to the product."

00:50:43   I don't think it,

00:50:44   I think it's too soon for people to like,

00:50:46   claim that this was a bad part of the device.

00:50:49   Like I feel like a lot of people,

00:50:51   'cause we were talking about like,

00:50:52   oh, it seems like it's core to the product.

00:50:55   And like from everything Apple was saying,

00:50:57   it feels core to the product, right?

00:50:59   Like everything they're showing,

00:51:01   everything they're saying,

00:51:02   this seems like an important part

00:51:03   of the overall proposition for them.

00:51:05   So like, I just think it's too soon one way or another

00:51:08   to talk about like,

00:51:09   whether this thing is important or not,

00:51:12   because no one's even seen it.

00:51:14   - Well, it's true.

00:51:15   We don't know.

00:51:16   What this does sound like though,

00:51:18   is that in the battle between,

00:51:21   philosophically you've gotta have the ability

00:51:23   to see somebody using this product

00:51:25   and see into them,

00:51:27   and therefore you need to have a display on the outside.

00:51:31   That versus,

00:51:32   we gotta get the price down, right?

00:51:35   We gotta make a model that doesn't cost $3,500.

00:51:37   How, and going to the product manager basically and saying,

00:51:40   how are you going to make a $1,500 headset?

00:51:43   Which for the record is very expensive still.

00:51:46   Their cheap headset,

00:51:47   which is gonna be maybe half the price of the Vision Pro,

00:51:50   is still very expensive, okay?

00:51:54   And you look at that display on the outside

00:51:58   and you're like, well,

00:51:59   I mean, I can think of one thing

00:52:00   that will drop the price of building this thing

00:52:02   by hundreds of dollars,

00:52:05   and it's that display.

00:52:06   So, you know, you make the choice and you're right.

00:52:10   I don't think it means,

00:52:12   aha, I guess it wasn't core to the product

00:52:14   because it's probably feels like an enormous sacrifice.

00:52:16   And you know, it's Apple maybe,

00:52:19   I'm sure it would be replaced by a less expensive

00:52:23   presence awareness indicator, right?

00:52:27   Something that indicates that they can see out

00:52:30   so that you know that they can see out,

00:52:31   even if it's not a display,

00:52:33   it's a light or I don't know what, something else.

00:52:38   But what it does say is that Apple's serious

00:52:42   about getting that price down

00:52:43   if they're gonna do a cheaper product.

00:52:45   Like, 'cause our initial reaction was in part,

00:52:49   how do you make a cheaper product

00:52:50   and keep that external display?

00:52:51   It seems like one of the easiest decisions to cut it

00:52:55   because it doesn't affect the user experience, right?

00:52:58   It affects the experience of the people around the user,

00:53:00   but it doesn't affect the user experience.

00:53:02   So it does sound like there's a shift here a little bit.

00:53:05   - We'll see.

00:53:06   - Right, 'cause you're, presumably,

00:53:07   if you're building a Vision One,

00:53:10   you are looking at every single decision.

00:53:13   I was thinking about this actually,

00:53:15   as I got the Quest 3 out,

00:53:17   is like, okay, Quest 3 versus Quest Pro,

00:53:20   what are the nice features of the Quest Pro

00:53:25   that they're like, hmm, no, let's make it worse, right?

00:53:30   And Apple is bad at that.

00:53:31   I mean, Apple struggles with that.

00:53:32   That's, I think, one of the reasons Apple is so successful

00:53:34   with their use last year's product kind of approach

00:53:38   is that Apple's better at giving you

00:53:40   last year's cutting edge product

00:53:41   than they are at giving you a middling product, right?

00:53:43   They don't wanna design a middling product.

00:53:45   They wanna design a really good product.

00:53:47   But for Vision Pro or for Vision OS to have a life,

00:53:51   it needs to get cheaper.

00:53:53   So imagine that conversation of,

00:53:55   we chose this really nice woven material for the headband.

00:53:58   You're like, guys, it's gotta be plastic, right?

00:54:03   Like it just has to be.

00:54:04   I'm sorry, 'cause it costs so much money

00:54:07   and we need to get the cost of this thing down.

00:54:09   Again, I've said this before,

00:54:11   to be a fly on the wall for those discussions, right?

00:54:13   How do we compromise our product

00:54:17   in order to make it affordable is a very, I think,

00:54:20   very hard thing for Apple to do.

00:54:23   But with the cost of Vision Pro,

00:54:27   if they wanna ship this in volume,

00:54:28   they really have to do that.

00:54:29   So, well, we'll keep an eye on it, Mike.

00:54:34   - We most certainly will.

00:54:37   At least one, but probably two eyes.

00:54:40   - Probably two.

00:54:41   - Or eyesight, in fact.

00:54:43   We'll keep it in focus, assuming we have the right lenses.

00:54:46   - This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc.

00:54:51   You know that feeling when you finally find the thing

00:54:54   that you've been searching for online,

00:54:56   that exact piece of hardware you were looking for,

00:54:58   or the one, you know,

00:55:00   maybe the one that all those great reviews

00:55:01   are telling you about?

00:55:02   You found those reviews, you found the product, you have it.

00:55:04   It's available in your country.

00:55:05   Get it on Next Day Delivery.

00:55:07   You're a happy person.

00:55:08   So why is it that you can get the most random niche thing

00:55:12   from around the world in two days?

00:55:13   But if you wanna see a good doctor,

00:55:15   it can take forever to get an appointment.

00:55:17   Not to mention, how do you actually know

00:55:19   if they're a good doctor?

00:55:20   Thankfully, there's Zocdoc,

00:55:22   a place to find and book great doctors

00:55:24   who actually have amazing reviews,

00:55:26   many of appointments available within 24 hours.

00:55:29   Zocdoc is a free app where you can find amazing doctors

00:55:33   and book appointments online.

00:55:34   We're talking about appointments with doctors

00:55:36   with thousands of top-rated patient review doctors

00:55:39   and specialists available to you.

00:55:41   You can filter specifically for ones who take your insurance

00:55:43   that are located near you

00:55:45   and treat almost any condition you're searching for.

00:55:47   These doctors have verified reviews

00:55:49   from actual real patients, not bots.

00:55:51   The average wait time to see a doctor booked on Zocdoc

00:55:54   is between just 24 and 48 hours.

00:55:56   That's it.

00:55:57   You can even get same-day appointments.

00:55:59   Once you find the doctor you want,

00:56:01   you can book them immediately with just a few taps in an app,

00:56:04   no more waiting awkwardly on hold of a receptionist.

00:56:07   This is all the ideal world.

00:56:10   Book in an app, see them the next day, perfect.

00:56:14   I hate having to try and call a doctor's surgery

00:56:17   on the phone and then they'll be like,

00:56:18   oh yeah, they can see you in three weeks from now.

00:56:20   Well, the thing that I want to talk to them about

00:56:22   might not even be a problem in three weeks from now.

00:56:24   I want to speak to a doctor now.

00:56:26   That's why Zocdoc is awesome.

00:56:27   Just go to Zocdoc.com/upgradefm

00:56:30   and download the Zocdoc app for free,

00:56:32   then find and book a top-rated doctor today.

00:56:35   That is Z-O-C-D-O-C.com/upgradefm.

00:56:40   Zocdoc.com/upgradefm.

00:56:43   Our thanks to Zocdoc for their support of this show

00:56:46   and all of Relay FM.

00:56:47   So, some time ago before the hubbub of the new iPhone,

00:56:53   before the iPhone event even,

00:56:55   Jason, you wrote a post about your current feelings

00:56:58   of trying to use the iPad as your only computer

00:57:01   when traveling and I've had this in my show notes for ages

00:57:04   and finally we're gonna talk about it today.

00:57:07   It is you giving up the iPad only travel dream.

00:57:11   I would like to read a quote from your article

00:57:14   as a lead in for this.

00:57:16   You say, "For many years, I've tried very hard

00:57:19   "to travel with only an iPad.

00:57:21   "Why bring two devices?

00:57:22   "And I'm not leaving my iPad at home.

00:57:24   "Since the arrival of Apple Silicon, however,

00:57:26   "I've gone back to traveling with both an iPad

00:57:28   "and a MacBook Air."

00:57:30   So what were you doing when you were bringing the iPad?

00:57:33   How did you make that work?

00:57:34   Why has it changed again?

00:57:36   - Well, it's funny 'cause I wrote this

00:57:38   the last time I was visiting my mom in Phoenix

00:57:40   and now I'm about to go back there again

00:57:41   and the same thing, I'll bring the iPad and the MacBook Air.

00:57:44   Well, listen to the show, may remember, may not.

00:57:46   I also wrote about it on six colors.

00:57:49   I tried to just travel with the iPad Pro.

00:57:52   The challenge for me is

00:57:55   a lot of it is podcasting related.

00:57:59   I do podcasts every week

00:58:01   and the iPad OS functionality just isn't there

00:58:06   to do podcasting.

00:58:07   So you end up having to work around it.

00:58:09   The sound system is not particularly sophisticated,

00:58:11   access to it by apps is not particularly powerful.

00:58:13   And so I ended up doing a bunch of things

00:58:16   that were hacks on the podcasting part of my life.

00:58:21   So I brought an external recording device, right?

00:58:26   And wired it in so that I could be on the iPad

00:58:28   talking on Skype,

00:58:30   but also recording to an external recording device.

00:58:34   Which works, but then I don't get

00:58:36   the other person's recording,

00:58:37   which means that there's a backup that's missing.

00:58:39   In the later days, I tried when we were using Zoom

00:58:45   to use Zoom's recording feature,

00:58:46   but Zoom's recording feature,

00:58:48   if you look at their documentation,

00:58:49   there's a little asterisk that says,

00:58:51   "None of this works on the iPad or iPhone."

00:58:53   They just didn't build it,

00:58:55   which is too bad 'cause they could build it to work

00:58:57   'cause they're literally running as the only app.

00:59:00   They could record your local audio on your microphone

00:59:02   and they don't do it.

00:59:04   And so I had all these different things.

00:59:07   I drew a little chart of what gets connected to what

00:59:10   in order for it to work.

00:59:12   And I ended up,

00:59:16   especially when I got the first Apple Silicon MacBook Air,

00:59:20   I had this thought, which is like, I was taking a trip,

00:59:22   I don't even remember where, and I thought,

00:59:24   am I going to go through all that trouble

00:59:26   or am I just gonna bring the MacBook Air 2

00:59:29   because it's lighter?

00:59:30   And it led to a situation where back in August

00:59:33   when I wrote this post, I had just been on a trip

00:59:36   to Colorado with Lauren's family

00:59:39   and I had to do one podcast while I was there.

00:59:42   And I brought the MacBook Air, I took it out one time,

00:59:45   which was to do that one podcast,

00:59:47   and then I put it away again.

00:59:49   And I thought, well, I mean,

00:59:51   I had to carry this thing around, that's true,

00:59:54   but I really only brought it for the one podcast.

00:59:57   But the truth is though, it's not quite that simple

01:00:01   because the other part of this is the rest of my job.

01:00:04   And while I could do a lot of the rest of my job

01:00:07   with the iPad, in certain circumstances

01:00:10   there was extra effort, right?

01:00:11   Like there's, I don't sit in an iPad all day,

01:00:14   I sit on a Mac.

01:00:15   So I build up work structures based on being on a Mac

01:00:19   and then they're gone on the iPad.

01:00:21   Now I can build up new structures.

01:00:22   So like on that trip to Colorado,

01:00:24   I had to do the charts for the Apple results.

01:00:27   I used the MacBook Air for that too.

01:00:28   So I opened it twice on that trip actually.

01:00:30   And the reason I did use the MacBook Air

01:00:32   is not that I couldn't have done it on the iPad

01:00:34   because I could have,

01:00:35   I built a shortcut that would do it on the iPad,

01:00:37   but that it would be a much slower process.

01:00:40   And since I had the MacBook Air,

01:00:42   I could just use my more streamlined macOS process.

01:00:47   So it just, the story was not,

01:00:50   and it was, it got on Hacker News and stuff.

01:00:53   What the story wasn't is I hate the iPad

01:00:57   and I'm not using it anymore.

01:00:58   I love the iPad.

01:00:59   I use it most of the time, even when I'm traveling.

01:01:02   But I did have that moment where I thought,

01:01:05   I am a happier traveler

01:01:09   and it's not that much extra space in my bag

01:01:12   to just bring the MacBook Air 2.

01:01:14   And if I've got it, use it for what it was intended

01:01:17   and stop because of the fundamental limitations of iOS

01:01:20   or iPad OS that Apple is just not addressing.

01:01:23   I have given up trying to

01:01:29   make the iPad do stuff that it is not,

01:01:33   that its maker doesn't want me to do with it,

01:01:35   if that makes sense.

01:01:36   That sort of is where I ended up is

01:01:38   I'm no longer gonna be kind of like a daredevil,

01:01:40   like trying to jump a canyon on an iPad.

01:01:45   I'm like, ah, it must be done because it can be done

01:01:48   and we must see if it can be done.

01:01:50   And I'm over that.

01:01:51   Like I would love for the iPad to progress to the point

01:01:55   where I could not bring the MacBook Air with me and be fine,

01:01:58   but it's not there and I'm kind of tired of fighting it

01:02:02   because Apple's not enabling this stuff.

01:02:07   So why should I beat my head against this brick wall?

01:02:10   Why not just bring the MacBook Air,

01:02:11   which is perfectly suited for some of these tasks?

01:02:14   - Yeah, I wanna read again from the article

01:02:17   'cause you're kind of getting close to the thing

01:02:20   that you were talking about and I wanna talk about it

01:02:22   based on what you said.

01:02:23   So this is a longer quote, so bear with me a second.

01:02:27   The beauty of the Mac as a platform

01:02:28   is that Apple doesn't have to think of every use case

01:02:31   and doesn't have to build out every single esoteric detail

01:02:34   in order to enable new features.

01:02:36   On the iPad, advancement doesn't work like that.

01:02:38   Instead, it's decided in various meetings inside Apple

01:02:41   where specific features will get prioritized

01:02:43   or deprioritized for the next operating system cycle.

01:02:47   Once every year or two, we will hear about

01:02:48   some legitimately exciting new features

01:02:51   that will extend the usability of the platform

01:02:53   and that will basically be it.

01:02:55   The waiting begins again.

01:02:56   Apple will determine what I can do with my iPad

01:02:59   and when that changes.

01:03:00   I'm sure they'll let me know.

01:03:01   Until then, all any of us can do is wait.

01:03:04   So of course there are, it doesn't work exactly this way,

01:03:09   but I know you're not saying it,

01:03:11   but people can make things for the Mac

01:03:14   that are outside of the App Store and do stuff.

01:03:18   And so you can find some truly weird and wonderful things

01:03:21   on the Mac because the platform will allow for it.

01:03:24   To a wide extent, Apple with the Mac,

01:03:28   Apple, you can make things for the Mac

01:03:29   that Apple has never intended the Mac to do.

01:03:32   And that go way beyond what Apple

01:03:34   would ever have thought of.

01:03:36   And it's fine.

01:03:38   And I feel like on the iPad, Apple has to have meetings

01:03:42   where they discuss whether they will allow a thing

01:03:45   to be on the iPad.

01:03:46   And then that gets added and we go, yay, but like, that's it.

01:03:50   Like it's a limited space of possibility

01:03:53   that is incrementally expanded by Apple.

01:03:56   Whereas the Mac, while not technically

01:03:58   a completely wide open space,

01:04:01   is pretty much a wide open space, right?

01:04:03   Like you could do almost anything on the Mac

01:04:07   and Apple will, you know, is not standing in your way.

01:04:10   It's just providing a platform

01:04:13   and maybe they'll clamp down on some stuff,

01:04:15   but it's starting open

01:04:17   and then some restrictions are placed on it.

01:04:20   Whereas the iPad is a closed set

01:04:22   that gradually expands.

01:04:24   - And you mean not even just what the platform can do

01:04:29   on the iPad, even if you can do something

01:04:32   weird and wonderful, will it get through app review?

01:04:35   - Well, yeah, I mean, that's always been one

01:04:37   of the arguments about the app store only model

01:04:40   is it has that chilling effect too,

01:04:42   which is some wild ideas that might even be approved

01:04:46   are never done because you would have to build it

01:04:49   and there's no pre-approval process.

01:04:51   You'd have to build it.

01:04:52   And then is it ever gonna get approved?

01:04:54   And then you're left with like a jailbreak and all that.

01:04:57   I don't know.

01:04:59   I mean, I'm at the point now where I think

01:05:00   that it's more likely that at some point

01:05:03   Apple will allow you to run a virtualized version

01:05:06   of Mac OS on an iPad,

01:05:08   than that Apple will allow something like Audio Hijack

01:05:11   to run an iPad OS.

01:05:13   I actually think that the former is more likely

01:05:15   that you've got an M1 or an M2 iPad.

01:05:17   It's fully capable of this stuff.

01:05:19   If you attach a keyboard, the magic keyboard

01:05:22   and you click on the virtual Mac thing

01:05:26   and it just runs Mac OS Sonoma

01:05:29   and you do that for a while and then you leave it

01:05:32   and it shuts itself off, like that why not?

01:05:36   First off, why not?

01:05:37   You could do that.

01:05:38   And second, does that solve your problem?

01:05:41   Maybe, but like the actual iPad OS

01:05:46   and it's not like it's bad.

01:05:47   It's just that Apple's got its priorities with it.

01:05:49   And you can't extend beyond it, not really.

01:05:52   And that's just where it is.

01:05:54   And we all were pushing, I think psychologically,

01:05:59   why people like me and Federico and David Sparks

01:06:04   and all sorts of other people were pushing the iPad

01:06:07   past its limits in that period.

01:06:09   There's two things.

01:06:10   One is the Mac was sort of a drag.

01:06:12   It was a bad time for the Mac.

01:06:14   And the iPad was legitimately exciting and new.

01:06:16   And we've talked about this in another context

01:06:18   where it feels like there was a period

01:06:20   where Apple thought the iPad was the future

01:06:22   and that the Mac was a legacy product

01:06:24   that was gonna go off and sort of like just exist.

01:06:27   And so those of us who felt like that was where it was going

01:06:30   were embracing this new exciting thing that was the future

01:06:33   because we thought as we pushed forward,

01:06:35   we were learning what everyone else would learn

01:06:37   in a few years as the platform expanded.

01:06:40   We were out there on the edge

01:06:42   and this is a thing with tech writers that happens.

01:06:45   You see things like I saw an ad the other day

01:06:48   about those making fun of the fact

01:06:50   that people have to know that like all caps

01:06:52   in a social media post is like you're yelling.

01:06:55   And I thought I learned that lesson in 1985, right?

01:06:59   That's an extreme example,

01:07:00   but like being on the cutting edge of tech,

01:07:02   one of the things you're doing is coming back and reporting

01:07:05   like this is how it's gonna be for you

01:07:06   in two or three years.

01:07:07   So with the iPad, that's what we all thought we were doing.

01:07:10   And I don't know if we misread it or if Apple swerved,

01:07:14   I think Apple swerved,

01:07:15   but regardless all of us look up after a while and say,

01:07:19   you know what, this platform isn't the future

01:07:21   in the way we thought and Apple is not moving it forward

01:07:25   at the pace that we thought they would.

01:07:27   And the Mac meanwhile has become reinvigorated

01:07:30   and Apple Silicon has really sort of like transformed

01:07:32   how awesome the Mac is and is moving it forward

01:07:35   and the laptops are better and they more fun to use

01:07:38   and all of those things.

01:07:40   And that's when we all step off to some degree

01:07:43   and sort of say, okay,

01:07:44   like and that this piece was me not saying that iPad sucks

01:07:48   'cause it doesn't.

01:07:49   Again, it is me saying,

01:07:52   I am not interested in being a trailblazer

01:07:54   and trying to force it to do things it can't do

01:07:56   because I no longer have faith

01:07:58   that it will ever be able to do them.

01:08:00   And there's another tool that's better for this

01:08:02   and it's the Mac and I can stick,

01:08:05   my backpack is old and it was built

01:08:08   for a much larger universe of laptops than currently exist.

01:08:12   And as a result, the laptop case and my backpack

01:08:15   fits a MacBook Air and an iPad Pro just fine.

01:08:18   I can put them both in there.

01:08:20   And so that's what I do now.

01:08:21   - For me, it was really the thing that David Sparks said,

01:08:26   I think it was in like the 2021 or 2022 report card

01:08:31   where he was saying that like,

01:08:32   I stopped trying to make the iPad be something it isn't.

01:08:35   Like it was a very much a crystallizing thing for me

01:08:38   because the combination of my Apple Silicon MacBook Air

01:08:43   and my iPad mini just changed my relationship to the iPad

01:08:46   because it drew a much stronger line for me

01:08:50   between what these products are for.

01:08:52   When like a Mac could be as portable as my iPad Pro,

01:08:57   changed things a lot, right?

01:09:00   Because the Apple Silicon laptops could be the portability

01:09:03   along with the battery life and the power.

01:09:06   And then the iPad mini gave me enough of an iPad experience

01:09:11   in a truly tiny size,

01:09:13   which I found very good for me at home.

01:09:15   But it helped to them make me realize

01:09:17   what the iPad for me is best at,

01:09:19   which is content, video, social media, reading,

01:09:24   and dealing with light, very light work.

01:09:26   Like that for me was just the best combination.

01:09:29   And like what this conversation isn't

01:09:31   is like the iPad sucks.

01:09:33   No, the iPad is awesome.

01:09:34   It's the computer I use most at home,

01:09:37   but it's not what I get work done on anymore.

01:09:42   Like I don't open spreadsheets on an iPad anymore

01:09:45   like I used to for years, right?

01:09:47   I don't do my show prep on an iPad anymore

01:09:49   like I used to for years.

01:09:51   I don't do all my email on an iPad.

01:09:52   Like I just do that on my Mac now

01:09:55   and I leave my iPad for the things that it is best at.

01:09:59   - Right, I'm fascinated.

01:10:01   So when I was in Memphis,

01:10:02   I got to see you and Steven with iPad minis.

01:10:04   - Yeah.

01:10:06   - I think that's really interesting.

01:10:07   I have something that we're gonna talk about in a minute.

01:10:10   I have spent the last couple of years

01:10:14   sort of dabbling with these weird

01:10:17   Android based E Ink devices.

01:10:20   - We'll be talking about that after the break.

01:10:23   - After the break, yeah.

01:10:24   See, I'm forward promoting here.

01:10:25   This is how it works.

01:10:27   Tune in to upgrade to hear the hosts

01:10:29   explain what they're doing while they're doing it.

01:10:31   But, and that's the idea there is giving me iPad

01:10:36   like multitasking where I can choose apps,

01:10:39   but in a Kindle kind of context with E Ink

01:10:44   and not like I'm not watching videos and stuff like that.

01:10:47   And I really like E Ink as is obvious

01:10:49   'cause I keep writing about it.

01:10:50   I really like E Ink as a display technology.

01:10:53   I think it gets me in,

01:10:54   I think it makes my brain work differently.

01:10:56   I think it allows me to focus on the words on the page

01:10:59   in a way that I don't if I have notifications on my iPad

01:11:02   and all of those things.

01:11:03   And like, I can always swipe to some app

01:11:06   that I know is there.

01:11:07   And it's like, no, I'm just using this device.

01:11:10   That said, I look at the iPad mini that you guys are using

01:11:12   and I think, and I've tried it.

01:11:15   Every time an iPad mini comes out,

01:11:16   I get a review unit, I try it out.

01:11:18   The latest iPad mini is really great.

01:11:20   And I think about like, could I do this instead?

01:11:25   And I could, I prefer not to, but I could.

01:11:29   It's trying to scratch that same edge.

01:11:33   And yes, the iPad is really good at that.

01:11:36   I think to your larger point, it's really good at that.

01:11:39   You were able to sort of take the pro out of the equation

01:11:42   because you now are just using the iPad mini

01:11:46   for what it's really great at.

01:11:48   I still use my iPad for more stuff,

01:11:50   but I feel like I am also constantly reevaluating

01:11:55   that part of it, which is,

01:11:56   am I willing to like get an iPad mini instead?

01:12:01   What does that mean?

01:12:02   It probably means that I'm gonna either try to do some work

01:12:04   on the iPad mini, which is probably not great,

01:12:07   but it's possible. - But it's not a great

01:12:07   experience to really do work on the iPad mini.

01:12:09   - But it means then that I'm using my MacBook Air

01:12:13   to do that, and do I wanna do that?

01:12:15   I'm very happy to very rarely use my MacBook Air

01:12:19   sitting on my couch or in bed, right?

01:12:22   Like I only do that when I absolutely must do it.

01:12:27   And I like that when I'm not traveling.

01:12:32   But I think about it, right?

01:12:36   I definitely do think about it.

01:12:38   - I mean, it was also for me as a way to try

01:12:40   and stop myself from doing like work at home as well.

01:12:45   Right, so like now I do have to grab my laptop

01:12:50   to do something work-related that's serious.

01:12:52   - So you built a barrier.

01:12:53   - So I built a barrier.

01:12:54   I mean, all the work apps are on my iPad

01:12:55   the same way as they're on my iPhone,

01:12:57   but it's more like checking in on stuff

01:13:00   as opposed to like getting active in a thing,

01:13:02   you know, in those devices.

01:13:04   But I'm not home anyway. - Right, and for me,

01:13:06   the barrier has been more, yeah, I could open my MacBook Air,

01:13:09   but the barrier has often been like,

01:13:11   if I'm gonna do that, I might as well just come out

01:13:13   into the office and turn on the computer

01:13:14   and use it out here.

01:13:16   And that's enough of a barrier that sometimes it prevents me

01:13:18   from working when I'm not supposed to be working.

01:13:21   And that's a good thing.

01:13:23   Yeah, and having a MacBook Air attached to a studio display

01:13:26   like in my house in another room is a interesting,

01:13:31   like it's a lower barrier.

01:13:33   So that's kind of interesting of like,

01:13:34   do I just pop into the back room where the MacBook Air

01:13:37   is attached to a keyboard and a monitor

01:13:40   and like wake it up and go on a computer

01:13:42   and then go back to sleep?

01:13:44   I don't know.

01:13:46   But yeah, the iPad, to wrap this up, like the iPad,

01:13:51   I only wrote this article and I think it came across

01:13:55   given the hacker news and stuff like that,

01:13:57   like it was like, oh, trying to get attention.

01:13:58   It was like, literally it was Friday morning,

01:14:01   I was at my mom's house, I was flying back that night

01:14:03   and I thought, I'm gonna sit down and do some work.

01:14:06   What am I gonna write about?

01:14:07   And I had just been thinking in the shower

01:14:09   about the fact that I brought these two computers

01:14:12   and was using them.

01:14:13   And once I had my MacBook Air,

01:14:16   I did my work on the MacBook Air instead of on the iPad Pro

01:14:20   because I had it, I had it, so why not use it to do work

01:14:24   that I would normally do on the Mac?

01:14:26   And I thought, well, I'll just write that up.

01:14:27   And that was literally my point in doing it.

01:14:29   It's just noticing that a thing about myself

01:14:32   that I hadn't really recognized,

01:14:34   or I recognized but I hadn't thought through

01:14:36   and written about, which is that that's where the iPad

01:14:39   is shifted for me, is I'm no longer willing

01:14:42   to be an iPad astronaut, right?

01:14:44   And push the boundaries and go out there

01:14:46   where no one has gone before and say,

01:14:48   did you know this thing?

01:14:50   Like a daredevil, like I said before,

01:14:51   because it's there, I have to do it.

01:14:54   And I feel like lots of us are at that point

01:14:57   where it's sort of like, I like the iPad,

01:14:59   but I'm not gonna try to make it into what it's not

01:15:03   because Apple seems to have an idea of what it's not.

01:15:06   And even if I wish it was that thing, Apple says it's not.

01:15:11   So it's not, and that's okay.

01:15:13   (upbeat music)

01:15:16   - This code is brought to you by DeleteMe.

01:15:19   Everybody wants to keep their personal information personal,

01:15:23   their private information private, right?

01:15:26   That's why it can be uncomfortable to think about the fact

01:15:29   that data brokers can be out there who might make,

01:15:33   who do in fact make a business selling people's data,

01:15:36   especially if they're selling your data.

01:15:39   The good news is you do have the right to stay private

01:15:43   and protect your privacy.

01:15:45   All you have to do, simple,

01:15:48   is contact all of the potential data brokers

01:15:50   out there in the world that might have your information

01:15:52   to check that you're not on their system

01:15:54   and then submit requests to be removed if you are.

01:15:58   Now, I don't know about you,

01:15:59   but I don't have the time to hunt down

01:16:01   all the various data brokers that might exist in the world

01:16:03   that may or may not be selling my personal information.

01:16:06   Well, that is where DeleteMe comes in

01:16:08   because they do it all for you.

01:16:10   DeleteMe helps you purge personal information

01:16:12   that has been captured by data brokers

01:16:14   like your name, address, age, phone numbers,

01:16:17   email addresses, and more,

01:16:19   and it does this by removing them from the source.

01:16:22   You submit the information that you'd like them to search for

01:16:25   and they'll do the rest.

01:16:28   My personal information is important to me.

01:16:30   I like an element of privacy online,

01:16:33   even though I'm a public person online.

01:16:35   I feel like this is the same for all of us these days.

01:16:37   You want to be open with the world

01:16:40   with the things you want to be open about,

01:16:41   but you also want to keep

01:16:42   your personal information private and sphere.

01:16:45   I've gone through and signed up for DeleteMe

01:16:48   and I found this process to be very simple.

01:16:49   They make it very clear what they're asking you for

01:16:51   and why they want it,

01:16:53   and you can just put in as much as you want.

01:16:54   Like I was able to put in all the information

01:16:57   that I wanted to check for,

01:16:58   the information that I wasn't interested

01:17:00   in having them search for, I just didn't provide it.

01:17:02   And then they go out there into the internet

01:17:04   and find out who has that information,

01:17:06   and then they're going to help me get rid of it,

01:17:09   which I'm excited about.

01:17:10   You can now get 20% off your DeleteMe plan

01:17:13   when you go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20

01:17:17   and use the promo code upgrade20.

01:17:20   The only way to get 20% off

01:17:22   is to go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20

01:17:26   and enter the promo code upgrade20 at checkout.

01:17:29   That is J-O-I-N-D-E-L-E-T-E-M-E.com/upgrade20

01:17:34   with the promo code upgrade20 for 20% off.

01:17:39   Our thanks to DeleteMe for their support of this show

01:17:41   and Relay FM.

01:17:43   The books, books.

01:17:48   - Books?

01:17:49   - Books, B-O-O-X.

01:17:50   - Books.

01:17:51   - Palmer.

01:17:52   Like the palm of your hand with an A on the end.

01:17:55   - Yeah.

01:17:56   - What on earth, Jason, is the books Palmer?

01:17:59   - I want to turn this around and say,

01:18:00   Mike, I showed this to you in Memphis.

01:18:02   What was your reaction when I showed this thing to you?

01:18:04   Because I remembered being something like, what is that?

01:18:07   - That was my reaction.

01:18:09   I could not believe this thing that you were showing me,

01:18:11   which was an e-ink phone.

01:18:16   - Yeah.

01:18:17   Yeah, so for a couple of years now, this company,

01:18:21   this Chinese company, Books,

01:18:23   has been sending me these Android-based e-readers

01:18:26   because I really, like I said in the last segment,

01:18:28   I really liked the idea that could I expand,

01:18:32   like what frustrates me about the Kindle and the Kobo

01:18:34   is that they are dedicated readers

01:18:37   and yet I end up reading all morning on my iPad

01:18:39   when I'm waking up and having my tea and eating my breakfast,

01:18:44   I'm reading on my iPad and I like my iPad,

01:18:46   but like I have this whole other device for reading.

01:18:48   Why am I not reading on that?

01:18:49   And the answer is because the Kindle and the Kobo,

01:18:52   they don't run apps.

01:18:53   They only run, Kobo has Pocket.

01:18:56   So that's something you can read articles on the Kobo,

01:19:00   but like they don't run apps.

01:19:02   So can I read my RSS feeds on a Kindle or a Kobo?

01:19:07   I cannot.

01:19:07   Can I read newspapers or magazines that have websites?

01:19:12   There is an experimental web browser, still experimental,

01:19:15   but like it's terrible and not e-ink optimized

01:19:18   and forget it, but they have like, there are apps for those

01:19:20   and I enjoy using those apps on my iPad.

01:19:23   So if you built a Kindle out of Android,

01:19:28   it would have apps on it.

01:19:31   And this company has been trying this.

01:19:33   The problem is that every Android app,

01:19:35   there's two problems, big problems.

01:19:36   One is every Android app is made for a phone screen

01:19:41   with high refresh rate and color.

01:19:43   The e-ink, there is color e-ink now,

01:19:45   and they do have a product that is color e-ink

01:19:48   and color e-ink is surprisingly better than it.

01:19:51   It's not bad.

01:19:53   You can't watch video on it, but it's actually not bad.

01:19:56   And the refresh rates are getting better for e-ink,

01:19:58   but the fact is e-ink doesn't do color 60 frames a second,

01:20:02   let alone 120, right?

01:20:04   It just doesn't do it.

01:20:05   Problem number two, by the way,

01:20:06   is all of these are Kindle sized.

01:20:09   So they're all tablet sized in terms of Android.

01:20:12   And you're not gonna believe this.

01:20:13   You may not have heard this before, Mike,

01:20:15   but Android tablet apps suck.

01:20:19   - No way. - They're bad.

01:20:21   There are some that are okay,

01:20:22   but like they're not very good.

01:20:26   They're just not very good.

01:20:28   They do weird things when confronted with a larger screen

01:20:31   because most Android users by far, 99%.

01:20:34   I mean, the percentage of iPhone to iPad,

01:20:38   it's mostly iPhones,

01:20:39   but the percentage of Android phones to Android tablets,

01:20:43   it might as well be 100%.

01:20:45   Really.

01:20:46   So when things get big, things get weird on Android.

01:20:51   So I get this company is so eager.

01:20:56   They're like, "Yeah, we'll send you, we got a new one."

01:20:59   They sent me the first one and I was like, "I'll try it, sure."

01:21:01   And I wrote it and I basically was like,

01:21:02   "You know what, this hardware is pretty good,

01:21:04   but the software is a mess and it doesn't work very well."

01:21:07   And the apps aren't optimized for E Ink,

01:21:09   so they smudge or they're like all gray scale and weird

01:21:12   and the experience is bad and you can't,

01:21:14   you turn a page and other than the apps that are included,

01:21:17   that nothing happens.

01:21:18   And so you end up having to do like a finger scroll

01:21:20   on E Ink, which is real bad, right?

01:21:23   Because it's just slow refresh rate and smudging as it goes.

01:21:28   It's bad.

01:21:31   And I wrote about it.

01:21:32   And I thought, well, I'm never hearing from those guys again.

01:21:35   And I actually said, "Here's the link to the story

01:21:37   and let me know, I'll send back your product

01:21:39   and there you go."

01:21:41   And instead they're like, "Great, thanks.

01:21:43   We'll send you more."

01:21:44   I'm like, "Okay."

01:21:45   They're like up for it.

01:21:46   - This is just what we wanted.

01:21:48   - But the truth is, I mean, they're looking for coverage

01:21:50   and it wasn't the most positive coverage,

01:21:52   but it gets their name out there.

01:21:53   And the truth is they have improved it a lot.

01:21:55   They have done a lot of things to Android

01:21:57   to try and make it so that you can tap and hold on an app

01:22:00   and tap on optimize.

01:22:02   And it is trying to hack that app to be more contrast

01:22:07   and to use volume buttons as page up, page down buttons

01:22:13   whenever possible.

01:22:14   And that gets you something that is more appropriate

01:22:17   for an E Ink reader.

01:22:18   So they've been improving it as they go.

01:22:21   Their tablet that does color had pretty good software.

01:22:25   The color was weird, but okay, but it was heavy and big.

01:22:29   And I didn't really like it because of that.

01:22:31   And I was thinking, "How am I gonna write about this one?"

01:22:33   And all of a sudden they're like,

01:22:35   "We'd like to send you this thing."

01:22:37   And it's a phone with an E Ink screen.

01:22:40   And it's not a phone.

01:22:41   It doesn't have cellular capability,

01:22:42   but otherwise it's a phone with an E Ink screen.

01:22:45   It's got a side button on one side

01:22:47   and it's got volume up and down,

01:22:48   and then another button, a power button on the other side.

01:22:51   It's got a camera in the back, which is the most,

01:22:53   they have an app called the document scanner,

01:22:55   but it's very clear they're using

01:22:56   an Android phone reference platform here, right?

01:22:58   And then putting an E Ink screen on it.

01:23:00   So they've collected all these,

01:23:01   like would they have chosen to put a camera on it?

01:23:04   Like maybe, but it's really there

01:23:07   because they inherited a camera

01:23:08   from whatever phone platform they're using

01:23:11   as the basis of this thing.

01:23:12   And so they've got document scanner app,

01:23:14   which is just the camera app.

01:23:16   It does by default, it scans it into like a PDF

01:23:19   or something like that.

01:23:20   But I took a picture of you with it.

01:23:22   - It was fun.

01:23:24   - Yeah, and it shows you as a dithered black and white

01:23:28   on the mic. - Maniac, honestly.

01:23:30   - Yeah, so it's a, you know, it's weird

01:23:34   because it is a phone, like the headline says,

01:23:37   it's a phone shaped e-reader.

01:23:39   It's a 6.13 diagonal E Ink screen running Android 11.

01:23:44   And I took it with me on my trip to Memphis

01:23:49   'cause I wanted it to be like, and I took my Kobo too.

01:23:52   And I was like, well, we'll see how it goes.

01:23:53   And I never used my Kobo the entire trip.

01:23:58   Even sitting in the Salt Lake City Airport

01:24:00   for 10 hours or whatever, I just used the Boox Palma.

01:24:04   I should also mention that the early Boox tablets,

01:24:08   their energy settings were all messed up too.

01:24:11   So they would lose battery life, like they would hemorrhage

01:24:14   it, whereas this thing, I put it in airplane mode,

01:24:16   turned off the wifi and it would last, you know, days off.

01:24:21   It would last weeks basically.

01:24:24   So it just was much better.

01:24:28   And I used it the whole time and I never got frustrated.

01:24:30   Some apps are better than others.

01:24:32   I found a really good EPUB reading app called Moon Plus

01:24:35   on Android that I use that was pretty good.

01:24:39   It turns out the Kindle app on Android is pretty good

01:24:42   and has all the settings.

01:24:43   I couldn't see them all at first,

01:24:45   but because of the way the black and white screen works,

01:24:48   like I didn't know that I could scroll down

01:24:50   and that there were even more settings

01:24:51   in each of the settings windows,

01:24:52   but it actually works pretty well.

01:24:54   The Kobo app isn't very good on Android.

01:24:56   The Libby app for library books is not that great

01:24:58   on Android either, but the Kindle app is pretty good.

01:25:00   And I found an RSS app that's okay.

01:25:03   And I'm sure if I looked harder, I would find more.

01:25:06   And then of course, every like news company

01:25:11   that's got an app, like the Athletic has an app on Android

01:25:15   and it's fine.

01:25:17   And so I could probably replicate my morning reading

01:25:20   experience on the books Palma pretty well.

01:25:24   And it would just be using a thing that's shaped

01:25:26   like a phone rather than shaped like a Kindle.

01:25:28   - Well, would you or have you?

01:25:30   Like you could, but would you?

01:25:33   - I think bottom line is that I don't like it ergonomically.

01:25:37   I have really come to appreciate the Kindle

01:25:41   and the Kobo having a, whatever it is,

01:25:45   six or seven inch diagonal screen and it's really thin

01:25:48   and it's got one edge that I can hold onto

01:25:50   when it's got page turn buttons on it.

01:25:52   And I can just sit there and go click, click, click, click,

01:25:54   click, and it's really convenient.

01:25:56   Holding this thing, I end up holding it in my left hand

01:26:00   and I have to have my fingers wrapped around

01:26:02   so that they're on the page turn button.

01:26:04   And every page turn is like I'm squeezing the phone

01:26:06   'cause I got to squeeze that button.

01:26:07   - Right, right.

01:26:09   - Or I could tap, but it would be,

01:26:11   then it's a two-handed experience, which I don't want.

01:26:14   And I don't think that ergonomic configuration

01:26:17   doesn't work for me.

01:26:18   It might work for other people.

01:26:19   The advantage of it, and I've talked to a couple of people

01:26:21   who've used it now.

01:26:23   Advantage of it is a real small,

01:26:24   like it fits in a pocket in a way that a Kindle or a Kobo

01:26:27   doesn't and gives you that kind of experience

01:26:31   of a really pleasant kind of E Ink experience

01:26:34   without, you know, that you can take with you.

01:26:38   Also, you had to take your phone 'cause it's not a phone,

01:26:41   but you could do it that way.

01:26:43   It's come a long way.

01:26:45   And for the most part, right, there's the power button,

01:26:47   there's the up and down, which are the page turn buttons

01:26:49   and the button on the other side,

01:26:51   I have set to refresh the E Ink screen

01:26:55   because every now and then you get an Android app

01:26:57   and it's drawing things or it's scrolling or whatever,

01:27:00   and everything gets smudgy.

01:27:02   And the way that this works on modern E Ink devices

01:27:05   is every fifth page turn or whatever,

01:27:07   it does the full-on sort of like flash refresh

01:27:10   of the screen.

01:27:12   And Boox's software tries to do that,

01:27:15   but some apps misbehave.

01:27:16   And you just press the button on the side and it goes bloop,

01:27:18   and then it looks good again.

01:27:21   So I found myself really liking this device, Mike, honestly,

01:27:25   I found myself liking it.

01:27:27   I mean, it is so not for everyone,

01:27:29   but I think if you're somebody who's either comfortable

01:27:30   with Android or willing to experiment with Android,

01:27:33   like it comes the first device they sent me

01:27:36   didn't even work with Google Play.

01:27:38   You had to like do this whole process.

01:27:39   It felt like you were essentially violating the terms

01:27:42   of Google's licensing agreement

01:27:43   in order to enable Google Play.

01:27:45   I think so.

01:27:48   Now it's Play Store is right on there,

01:27:50   very easy to do.

01:27:51   Like it's all above board.

01:27:53   It actually works really well.

01:27:55   So it's come a long way and it's not perfect.

01:27:58   I really wish a device like this,

01:28:00   and maybe Boox is pushing it this way.

01:28:02   I really wish devices like this were popular enough

01:28:05   that the good Android software,

01:28:08   the best Android software for these devices

01:28:11   supported it better.

01:28:14   Because if you could get a core set of apps

01:28:17   to support it well,

01:28:20   and maybe that's on Boox to try to find partners

01:28:25   who have a like a freemium model

01:28:27   where you could put the free version on there

01:28:29   and then everyone would use it and say, this is great.

01:28:33   And then they would pay an upgrade price or something,

01:28:35   or maybe they could bundle.

01:28:37   I don't know what the economics are that are right.

01:28:39   But like, if you could get a really good RSS reader

01:28:42   and put it on there and they include an EPUB reader

01:28:45   that's not very good,

01:28:46   but there are other EPUB readers that are very good.

01:28:49   You can get this thing to be pretty cool.

01:28:52   I think the question that I have left is

01:28:55   if they applied all of this technology

01:28:57   to a Kindle shaped device,

01:29:00   would it be good enough?

01:29:02   Or would the fact that it's now a tablet

01:29:04   kind of make all the software worse?

01:29:06   I don't know the answer to that question.

01:29:08   But I really, I like that this product exists.

01:29:13   And I think that it's what $280.

01:29:15   It's not cheap,

01:29:16   but I think that there's an audience

01:29:20   for a product like this really,

01:29:22   who really loves E Ink and a reader

01:29:24   and is going to be comfortable enough using Android.

01:29:28   - It's a very interesting product in general.

01:29:33   And it was super funny.

01:29:33   Like I was listening to App Stories today

01:29:36   and John Voorhees bought one of the tablet ones.

01:29:39   - Yeah, yeah.

01:29:40   Oh, he and I had a text chain this weekend about that.

01:29:43   I was like, what?

01:29:44   You got the huge tablet and are using it with a keyboard.

01:29:48   Wow, okay.

01:29:49   - Basically the core idea,

01:29:52   irrespective of the form factor that you go for,

01:29:54   of Android device with E Ink is really cool.

01:29:59   And I think it's one of the great things

01:30:01   in general about Android, right?

01:30:03   That like, this is a device

01:30:05   that could not exist about Android

01:30:06   'cause there'd be no point in doing it.

01:30:08   - Right.

01:30:09   - Right, especially the phone one.

01:30:11   And I know that Remarkable

01:30:13   have made a decent business for themselves,

01:30:14   but they've been around for a really long time now.

01:30:17   But the idea of having the ability to get,

01:30:20   you know, like John was having Obsidian

01:30:22   or you would have that athletic app or whatever, right?

01:30:24   You could put any app that you want on it

01:30:26   and they're gonna work how they're gonna work.

01:30:28   Like, you know, when you were showing me the device,

01:30:30   some apps were better than others,

01:30:32   but also books build in a bunch of really smart features

01:30:35   into the operating system

01:30:37   to try and account for some of that stuff.

01:30:38   Like you can end up with something really interesting

01:30:41   that maybe if you, you know,

01:30:42   I have a commute every day and you're holding your phone

01:30:44   and reading every day,

01:30:45   maybe it would be nicer to pick up this $280,

01:30:47   which I think feels like a pretty decent price

01:30:49   for something like this device

01:30:52   to just read your art calls on an E Ink screen.

01:30:55   I think that's kind of cool.

01:30:57   I liked it a lot.

01:30:58   - If you like the E Ink feel,

01:31:01   which is really nice 'cause it's reflective

01:31:02   and it does have a, it's not a backlight, it's a side light.

01:31:06   That's what they all do now

01:31:07   is they have LEDs around the edges that light it up.

01:31:09   But the idea is that like also the sun hits it

01:31:11   and the lights in your room hit it and reflect back.

01:31:14   And so it feels like paper in a way that our glowing,

01:31:16   our glowing screens are glowing screens.

01:31:18   This is not a glowing screen.

01:31:20   And it is, it just feels different.

01:31:24   It feels more like paper.

01:31:26   I agree, this is one of the great things

01:31:29   about having something like Android out there,

01:31:30   because not only is it an operating system they can use

01:31:33   and they can pull reference hardware platforms off,

01:31:35   obviously like they've done here with a camera.

01:31:37   And then there's software.

01:31:39   There's a software library that exists for it.

01:31:41   And it's not, there's a lot of crap on the Android

01:31:46   on the Play Store, but there are also good apps.

01:31:50   And you can find them in most categories.

01:31:53   There's somebody like Moon Plus,

01:31:56   somebody who's making a living building a good app.

01:31:58   And they know that they're getting,

01:31:59   'cause they have a pro version

01:32:01   that they want you to pay for it.

01:32:02   Like they're getting a fraction of a fraction of a fraction,

01:32:04   but it's still a pretty big audience

01:32:06   of people who wanna read eBooks on Android

01:32:09   and they can make a business out of it, which is great.

01:32:11   'Cause that app is good.

01:32:12   So I'm all, I'm happy about it.

01:32:16   Like I said, I'm troubled by the fact

01:32:18   that the tablet stuff is just not an emphasis on Android.

01:32:21   And therefore I was saying this to John,

01:32:24   'cause John's using the big boy, right?

01:32:25   Like I said, Android tablet apps aren't very good.

01:32:28   And he's like, no, they're not.

01:32:30   You can find good ones, but it's harder to do that.

01:32:34   - John's really seeming to get just a good use

01:32:37   out of just having a web browser, like a full web browser.

01:32:39   - Web browser and there is an ink browser too,

01:32:43   but there's like browsers that are better in ink,

01:32:45   which is nice.

01:32:47   That and what is better in ink mean?

01:32:49   It basically means things like reducing the contrast

01:32:52   so that you don't have a lot of like a gray background

01:32:55   when it's better with a white background

01:32:57   and doing paging instead of scrolling.

01:33:00   Like, so that you say you hit the space bar

01:33:02   or you tap the volume bar and it draws the next page

01:33:06   instead of doing an animation that slides it all up.

01:33:09   'Cause that slide messes up the ink screen

01:33:12   and it's not meant to work like that,

01:33:13   to be animated in that way.

01:33:14   And so there are browsers that do that.

01:33:18   And then he, and he's got Obsidian running

01:33:20   and that runs fine.

01:33:22   And I think that unlocked a lot for him

01:33:24   was that he can run Obsidian and he can run a browser.

01:33:28   And that's sort of all he needs on that device.

01:33:31   It's an interesting idea.

01:33:33   So, I continue to say,

01:33:38   (laughing)

01:33:39   especially Amazon,

01:33:42   which has an Android based infrastructure

01:33:45   for other products and has an app store.

01:33:48   I really am disappointed that after all this time,

01:33:54   Amazon hasn't, for example,

01:33:58   made a partnership with

01:34:01   certain app developers on Android

01:34:06   and made those apps available.

01:34:08   I don't even know if the Kindle runs Android,

01:34:10   but they could do it, right?

01:34:11   They could just build a Kindle that runs Android

01:34:13   underneath that you wouldn't see it.

01:34:16   And then what I'm saying is,

01:34:18   Amazon could make the Kindle run a select number of apps

01:34:23   and they choose not to.

01:34:26   And I can see the advantage of saying,

01:34:28   no, Kindle is for books.

01:34:30   Okay, I can see it.

01:34:31   But like, I would love it if I could do RSS

01:34:34   and a select number of news sources on my Kindle.

01:34:39   I would love that.

01:34:39   That would make it a much more valuable device to me

01:34:42   because it's a beautiful E-Ink screen

01:34:44   and presumably the software would be tweaked

01:34:46   to actually work right on Kindle.

01:34:49   Wouldn't that be something?

01:34:50   But that ain't happening.

01:34:51   So instead, this is what we're left with is,

01:34:55   Android devices and a company that's trying to build

01:34:58   sort of like software that adapts existing Android apps

01:35:02   to be better on E-Ink.

01:35:03   And for all I know, they're also probably talking

01:35:05   in the background to some of the apps

01:35:07   that people are using on these devices and saying,

01:35:10   can you do this thing so it works better on our device?

01:35:14   That's probably also going on.

01:35:16   But like, yeah, it's fun to take a spin in this.

01:35:21   In the end, I don't know.

01:35:24   In the end, if they made something

01:35:25   that was the size of a Kindle or a Kobo

01:35:27   that did otherwise software,

01:35:29   felt exactly like the Books Palma,

01:35:32   I would definitely try it out.

01:35:35   The current readers that are that size

01:35:37   are using an older version of the software

01:35:41   that doesn't work as well.

01:35:43   One of the challenges there is also getting

01:35:45   a hardware page turn button, which is harder

01:35:48   because lots of tablets don't have physical buttons for that

01:35:54   and I really want physical buttons for that.

01:35:56   Advantage of the Palma is it's a phone.

01:35:58   And so, not a phone, but you know, it's shaped like a phone,

01:36:01   which means it has volume up and down buttons,

01:36:02   which are page turn buttons, which is really great.

01:36:04   I don't know.

01:36:05   I love showing it to you because it's so weird, right?

01:36:09   - It's such a fun thing. - That's one of the best

01:36:10   things about it is you look at it and you're like,

01:36:11   what is it?

01:36:12   Yeah, that's what it is.

01:36:14   - This episode is brought to you by Notion.

01:36:19   There are many AI tools out there

01:36:20   that can be fun to play around with,

01:36:22   but when it comes to something that you actually want

01:36:25   to plug into your workflow and use regularly,

01:36:27   Notion AI is the one that will really help you save time

01:36:31   in your day to day work.

01:36:33   You can leverage the power of AI right inside of Notion

01:36:36   across all of your notes and documents

01:36:37   without the need to jump between your work

01:36:39   and a separate AI powered tool.

01:36:41   Notion AI is designed to help you with your work

01:36:44   right in the place where you're doing your work.

01:36:49   Notion AI helps you to automate the tedious tasks

01:36:52   like summarizing meeting notes or finding next steps.

01:36:55   You're free to do the deep work you're best at

01:36:58   and leave the rest to Notion AI.

01:37:01   Whatever you're working on,

01:37:02   Notion AI lets you skip to the good part,

01:37:04   save time and write faster by letting Notion AI

01:37:06   handle the brainstorm and first draft

01:37:09   or turn your messy notes into something more polished.

01:37:11   You just tell Notion AI what you want to do.

01:37:14   The more details, the better,

01:37:15   or start a prompt and go from there.

01:37:17   Have it write a post for you, make an outline,

01:37:19   brainstorm some ideas or summarize a bunch of documents.

01:37:22   You can use Notion AI to improve writing,

01:37:25   summarize pages, find action items,

01:37:26   translate into other languages and more.

01:37:28   Simply select the text, click Ask AI

01:37:31   and increase your productivity like never before.

01:37:34   Over the last few months,

01:37:35   I've been going pretty heavy into Notion

01:37:37   with Cortex brand stuff.

01:37:38   So we're keeping it as like our knowledge base

01:37:40   and then project planning and all this kind of stuff.

01:37:42   Like this is where we're keeping all of this

01:37:44   and collaborating on it as a team.

01:37:46   And I've been using Notion AI with our meeting notes.

01:37:50   So me and Grey will have a meeting every month

01:37:52   and we'll talk through the things that we're working on.

01:37:54   And I will write, make notes about that,

01:37:57   make notes about the whole meeting.

01:37:59   But then what I want at the end is some action items.

01:38:02   And so what I've been doing is firing up Notion AI

01:38:05   and saying, can you give me the action items

01:38:07   for this meeting?

01:38:08   And it goes through and does it.

01:38:10   And it is honestly unbelievable how good a job it does

01:38:15   at taking the notes that I'm writing

01:38:17   and making a bunch of action items

01:38:19   at the end of the meeting that I can then use

01:38:22   to go over in the future and tick off what I'm doing

01:38:24   and what I'm not doing.

01:38:25   It really is incredible.

01:38:26   I've been blown away by it.

01:38:28   I think these AI tools are most helpful

01:38:30   when they're working on the things

01:38:33   that we're already working on.

01:38:34   It's kind of like it's there with you alongside you.

01:38:37   And it's there to take your work and break it down

01:38:41   in a way that makes it easier for you to manage.

01:38:43   Try Notion AI for free.

01:38:45   When you go to notion.com/upgrade,

01:38:47   that is N-O-T-I-O-N.com/upgrade

01:38:50   to try out the incredible power of Notion AI today.

01:38:54   All of those letters, of course,

01:38:55   lowercase in the URL, that is important.

01:38:58   When you use our link, you're supporting the show.

01:39:00   Try Notion AI for free right now at notion.com/upgrade.

01:39:04   Our thanks to Notion for their support of this show

01:39:06   and Relay FM.

01:39:08   Let's finish out with some ask upgrade questions

01:39:12   for today's episode.

01:39:15   Dave asks, after listening to the Quad Box discussion

01:39:19   last week-- - Quad Box!

01:39:20   - Quad Box!

01:39:21   I wonder what you think a multi-stream interface

01:39:24   could be like on the Vision Pro.

01:39:26   With what seems to be an open canvas,

01:39:27   the potential number of visible feeds

01:39:29   and the methods to move, bring into focus and arrange

01:39:32   could result in quite the experience.

01:39:34   - Oh, I agree.

01:39:35   I hadn't really thought about it, but it's true.

01:39:37   The challenge is bandwidth, right?

01:39:39   Although, depending on what the scale is,

01:39:42   I think you downscale,

01:39:44   you offer lower quality feeds and all of that.

01:39:46   And there's this question of like multiple apps,

01:39:48   although wouldn't that be nice

01:39:49   if you could take a video from one app

01:39:51   and put it over here and a video from another app

01:39:53   and put it over here.

01:39:54   I will just say that while a TV OS is good at this

01:39:57   or capable of this,

01:39:58   iOS and iPad OS are not as good at this.

01:40:01   So I think that's the question is,

01:40:05   will Vision OS be good at this?

01:40:07   But this would be really great, right?

01:40:09   To be able, I'm sure Apple will do it.

01:40:11   Will anybody else do it?

01:40:13   I don't know, right?

01:40:14   Like if you have to use the YouTube TV app

01:40:16   and it's just gonna show you a rectangle

01:40:20   with four things in it, that's a quad box,

01:40:23   but like what you really want is to be able

01:40:25   to put those four things out of the quad box

01:40:27   and just have quad boxes floating in the world instead.

01:40:31   But I love the idea that you can position

01:40:34   a bunch of different screens in different places

01:40:36   if you wanna get that Adrian Veidt

01:40:39   at the end of Watchmen kind of feel going on.

01:40:42   I got 40 TVs on right now and I'm watching them all at once.

01:40:47   - It's pretty great, right?

01:40:49   I love that.

01:40:49   I genuinely love that idea.

01:40:51   I think that could be super fun.

01:40:51   - It is.

01:40:52   I was, quad box is good, but we don't have to stop there.

01:40:56   Some people will get a quad box and they're satisfied.

01:40:59   Others look at the quad box and say, what if Octobox?

01:41:02   - What about Quintuple box?

01:41:03   You know, let's, sky's the limit.

01:41:06   - That's right.

01:41:07   - Why even put a number on it?

01:41:08   Ultibox, Omnibox, Infobox.

01:41:11   Anyway, Dean asks, Jason, you have mentioned

01:41:14   that you mount your Mac under your desk.

01:41:16   Where under the desk?

01:41:17   Towards the front?

01:41:18   So that's accessible for plugging things in to the front IO

01:41:21   and pressing the power button?

01:41:23   Or towards the rear to be closer

01:41:26   to the permanently connected items like monitors and power?

01:41:30   - It is closer to the front,

01:41:34   partly because I do have to press the power button

01:41:36   by reaching all the way around to the back,

01:41:40   which is not ideal.

01:41:41   And also my Mac studio has ports on the front.

01:41:44   So it's nice to be able to plug things

01:41:45   into the ports on the front.

01:41:47   And then on the underside of the desk,

01:41:50   yes, I need some longer cables

01:41:52   to run all the way back around to the monitor.

01:41:54   I have power on the underside of the desk.

01:41:58   I have a USB hub on the underside of the desk.

01:42:00   So the underside of the desk is doing a lot of work.

01:42:02   There's a lot going on there.

01:42:04   So that's the answer.

01:42:04   So it is toward the front.

01:42:05   I'm still using a thing that was designed

01:42:07   for like a Mac mini and an external hard drive or something.

01:42:11   Now you can get like on Etsy,

01:42:14   you can get Mac studio specific shapes.

01:42:18   I think Steven has one of those,

01:42:20   but I've got an older one, but it's great.

01:42:25   And since I have the M1 Mac studio,

01:42:26   it also means that I don't hear the fans.

01:42:28   So that's nice.

01:42:29   - That is nice.

01:42:30   Tim asks, since the iPhone 15 can take portrait photos

01:42:35   about explicitly selecting portrait mode,

01:42:38   does that mean it's now possible to capture live photos

01:42:41   of portrait mode or do you still have to choose

01:42:43   one or the other?

01:42:44   Well, Mr. Photos.

01:42:46   - Yeah, well, you have the answer here, so just give it.

01:42:48   - I do, I wanted to give you the opportunity

01:42:51   because you were of course the writer of,

01:42:53   does it take control of photos?

01:42:54   - Take control of photos, yes.

01:42:56   But I would have to think about it

01:42:58   or check it on my phone.

01:42:59   - All right, I had checked it.

01:43:00   I wanted to just give you a cross promo opportunity here,

01:43:03   but no, you have to choose.

01:43:04   So it's in the same menu.

01:43:06   So you know, like up at the top left,

01:43:07   or you'd have the options on a live photo

01:43:09   to change it to like bounce and loop and stuff like that.

01:43:12   Portrait is now in that menu.

01:43:15   It's like where you can choose to turn on the portrait.

01:43:17   So if you turn on the portrait,

01:43:19   you'll lose the live photo feature.

01:43:21   - Right.

01:43:22   - I hope they find a way to do that one day.

01:43:24   That would be super cool, right?

01:43:26   - I mean, it's basically cinematic live photos, right?

01:43:28   That's, it seems like a definite future opportunity for them.

01:43:32   And I feel like you just named it, you know?

01:43:36   Cinematic live photos.

01:43:38   - Yep. - Let's do it.

01:43:39   - That's what it is, 'cause it's cinematic mode.

01:43:41   It already does what portrait mode does.

01:43:43   So you do cinematic live photos.

01:43:45   - Because now the little menu where it used to just say live

01:43:50   now says like F live.

01:43:53   - Ah, yes.

01:43:55   - So I have just done it to one.

01:43:57   And what you do, you still have a live photo,

01:44:01   but it isn't portrait mode.

01:44:03   So you-- - Right.

01:44:04   - Right?

01:44:05   - You have portrait mode still

01:44:06   and a live photo that's not portrait mode.

01:44:08   - It's not portrait live photo.

01:44:09   - Right.

01:44:11   - Yeah.

01:44:12   - The live photo itself is not portrait.

01:44:13   - Which would be fun.

01:44:15   I think they could do that,

01:44:16   but it's if they wanna do it or not.

01:44:18   But also she say, cinematic live photos

01:44:20   is like a whole feature all of its own

01:44:22   for the next iPhone, you know?

01:44:24   - Yeah.

01:44:25   - And Adrian asks, I'm trying out the no case club.

01:44:27   Assuming you put your phone down screen up,

01:44:30   I'm worried that the cameras would get scratched

01:44:33   if you did that.

01:44:34   But screen side down, the screen will get scratched.

01:44:36   What do you do?

01:44:37   Now you use a case, right?

01:44:39   Or do you not?

01:44:40   I don't remember anymore. - No.

01:44:41   - All right, so-- - No case.

01:44:41   - Do you think about this?

01:44:43   - No.

01:44:44   - Neither do I.

01:44:45   This is the, okay, here's the thing.

01:44:46   If you wanna go no case club,

01:44:48   you have to not think about things like this.

01:44:50   If you think about things like this,

01:44:51   you should put a case on your phone.

01:44:52   - Yeah.

01:44:53   - I just live on my phone.

01:44:54   Like I just live with it.

01:44:56   Like I've noticed, I already have like a slight scratch

01:44:59   kind of around the edge of the camera lens,

01:45:02   but like that's the part that's supposed to get scratched,

01:45:05   not the camera lens, you know?

01:45:06   'Cause it's just like you're putting it down or whatever.

01:45:08   - Camera side down, I have never experienced

01:45:11   having a scratch on a camera lens

01:45:13   and I have been caseless since the iPhone 10, I think.

01:45:18   - Yeah, if you really, if this worry,

01:45:22   like if that like kind of stuff you think about it,

01:45:24   it worries you or makes you feel anxious,

01:45:25   then I really recommend not doing it.

01:45:27   Like it's not worth it for that.

01:45:31   Like you've kind of got to go with it.

01:45:34   And as David said in the chat and it's true,

01:45:35   like the camera lenses, they are actually Sapphire glass.

01:45:39   Like that is the strong stuff.

01:45:41   I wished.

01:45:42   - You're meant to lay your phone down like that.

01:45:45   - Yeah.

01:45:46   - By Apple, right?

01:45:46   'Cause Apple, although they sell cases,

01:45:48   the iPhone does not come with a case.

01:45:51   That's because it is meant to be used.

01:45:53   Like Apple's philosophy here is it's meant to be used

01:45:57   without a case, but also there's a case if you want it.

01:46:00   And it's meant to be laid down camera side down

01:46:03   and it's not meant to be scratched and it is fine.

01:46:07   So yes, you're right, Mike,

01:46:09   you got to kind of like just let go.

01:46:10   Be one being in no case club, be one with the phone,

01:46:15   put it down, use it.

01:46:17   Is it going to be affected by the world around it?

01:46:19   Yeah, it is, but it's okay.

01:46:22   I think it's going to be okay.

01:46:23   - I think it's going to be okay too.

01:46:25   In fact, I know it's okay

01:46:26   because I've done it for so many years.

01:46:28   - Me too.

01:46:29   - If you would like to get in touch with us

01:46:32   and ask a question of your own,

01:46:33   or if you have any feedback or follow up,

01:46:35   just go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:46:37   That is where you can submit it.

01:46:39   Until next week's episode,

01:46:40   if you want to see what Jason's up to,

01:46:42   you can read his writing over at sixcolors.com

01:46:44   and hear his shows here on Relay FM

01:46:46   and at the incomparable.com.

01:46:48   And can listen to me on many podcasts here on Relay FM.

01:46:51   You can check out my work at cortexbrand.com as well.

01:46:54   We're on the social media places too.

01:46:56   You can find us on Mastodon.

01:46:58   Jason is at Jason now on zeppelin.flights.

01:47:00   And I am at iMike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social.

01:47:04   You can also find the show as upgrade@relayfm.social.

01:47:09   You can watch video clips of the show posted to Mastodon,

01:47:11   but also in their natural places

01:47:14   like TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube,

01:47:16   where we are @upgraderelay on all of those.

01:47:19   And you can find our experimental full video episodes

01:47:22   of the show on YouTube.

01:47:24   We're also on threads.

01:47:25   I am at iMike.

01:47:26   Jason is at Jason now.

01:47:27   Thank you to our members, the supporters of Upgrade Plus.

01:47:30   You can go to getupgradeplus.com

01:47:32   and get longer ad-free versions of the show

01:47:35   each and every week.

01:47:36   Thank you to Notion, Delete Me, ZocDoc, and Elektrik

01:47:40   for their support of this week's episode.

01:47:42   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:47:44   We'll be back next time.

01:47:46   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:47:48   - Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

01:47:49   (upbeat music)

01:47:51   (upbeat music)

01:47:54   (upbeat music)