The Talk Show

387: ‘Are There Ever Too Many Love Songs?’, With Sebastiaan de With and Ben Sandofsky


00:00:00   I've got two special guests here. Welcome to the talk show. Ben Sandofsky and Sebastian DeWitt.

00:00:06   You two are the co-founders, co-partners, co-makers of Lux. Is that that's the company name?

00:00:12   Yeah, that's right. Or is it Lux Camera? I wasn't sure. It's lux.camera as the URL.

00:00:18   Lux Optics, incorporated legally in our filed paperwork. I love it. I love it. That's a little

00:00:27   bit like in the paperwork. My company is the Daring Fireball company. And when I filed the paperwork,

00:00:35   my accountant was like, "Why not just Daring Fireball? Doesn't that make more sense?" And

00:00:39   I was like, "Yeah, but I kind of want like the old timey feel." I wanted to sound like it's been

00:00:44   around since like 1907 or something like that. Best known for Halide, the professional camera app

00:00:53   for the iPhone. And you guys now have a second app, Orion, which we'll talk about later. But

00:00:58   welcome to the show. Before we talk about your work, we've got upcoming news. Apple has surprised

00:01:04   us with a evening online event next Monday, as we speak with the headline Scary Fast. And a pretty

00:01:15   obvious strong hint with the animation that turns into the Finder logo, which I guess is also the

00:01:21   unofficial Mac logo that this is a Mac-oriented event. What do you guys think? There was a lot of

00:01:28   speculation before this event that there'd be no new Macs this year, and now something, but nobody

00:01:34   really knows what, which I think is super exciting. I think so far, just like the rumor conflicts in

00:01:41   the last part of this year have been the most amusing to me, because there was that whole

00:01:45   iPad thing. I'm not sure if you follow that, but there were a bunch of people who said there was

00:01:49   going to be new iPads, and then we just got a new pencil. And now there are people saying,

00:01:56   no, there's going to be, suddenly there's a Mac event, and other people saying, no,

00:01:59   there's nothing coming anymore. And now we've got, we don't know what we're getting. I still

00:02:05   want to believe we're going to get something super out of left field, and it's going to be

00:02:09   this new, like a big iMac Pro that nobody ever saw coming. But what do you think, Ben?

00:02:15   I think that like, it's like that year when they were releasing iOS and they put out a

00:02:19   press release that Mac OS would be delayed because they had to pull off engineers, right?

00:02:24   So I imagine everyone in the company working on all the frameworks and everything is super focused

00:02:29   on getting a vision pro out. So we're going to see some speed bumps, but we're like, this wouldn't be

00:02:35   the year that you'd see something revolutionary. And it occurred to me, the one thing, if I had

00:02:40   to guess is they're probably going to give a release date for Resident Evil 4, just because

00:02:43   that ties into Halloween. And they kind of didn't announce that it would be coming to the Mac.

00:02:48   And if you go to the Capcom website, it says that they even say on the Capcom website,

00:02:52   the date in the app store is a placeholder of December 31st, because you always think of

00:02:57   Resident Evil when you think of new years, but they'll probably like either announce

00:03:01   Resident Evil the day of, and it'll, it'll, they'll, there'll probably be a narrative around

00:03:06   gaming on the Mac finally, because that's also what they were pushing over summer with the cross

00:03:10   compatibility stuff. And some people were able to hack it already using, I guess the SDKs to run PC

00:03:15   games on the Mac. So I'm guessing it'll be gaming focused in some, in some horror cutesy skits.

00:03:21   That's good. That's really good. Yeah. They're, I, I almost feel bad for them. I guess it's better

00:03:31   than nothing, but they they've been promoting the heck out of both of these Resident Evil titles

00:03:37   for, I don't know if it's even a full year, but you know, obviously a lot larger on iOS,

00:03:42   but you know, they, they came up at WWDC, they keep coming up, right. And it's like the,

00:03:47   it's fair to call it a dearth of AAA games for the Mac, right? The Mac is not in a great shape for

00:03:56   AAA games. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that. We can actually delve into them, but

00:04:05   the Resident Evil ones, I guess, are written to metal APIs, which is why they're able to like,

00:04:13   what, wasn't the demo at WWDC when they talked about the built-in ray tracing support and the

00:04:19   GPU and the A17 Pro, I think they showed the Resident Evil was the footage taking advantage

00:04:25   of it. They also had a demo that Apple itself wrote. It was sort of like a pretend game,

00:04:30   which sort of speaks to how few games there are that they had to sort of make, like, it was like

00:04:35   some kind of futuristic spaceship metal hallway type thing. And they're like, here it is running

00:04:41   at 12 frames per second on an older chip. And here it is with ray tracing running at a full 60 frames

00:04:46   per second, blah, blah, blah. But the Resident Evil games are the few, the handful of major

00:04:51   titles that, that actually could run great on the Mac. So I def and the Halloween tie-in. Yeah.

00:04:58   Right. Yeah. That seems like a really good shoe in. And there's a, so there's a certain irony in

00:05:04   Resident Evil 4 specifically, because this is the remake and the original version that came out for

00:05:09   GameCube in 2002 was announced was at a time when Nintendo was in trouble. Like they didn't have any

00:05:14   third-party devs building for GameCube. So there was a set of games called the Capcom 5, which were

00:05:20   all a sensibly at the time going to be GameCube exclusives. And it kind of injected new life in

00:05:25   the system and Resident Evil 4 was like the tent pole of that. And it ended up being like one of

00:05:30   the most influential games of that whole era. So there's something funny about now Apple partnering

00:05:35   with Capcom, although it wasn't a launch title. iOS wasn't the launch title for Resident Evil 4

00:05:41   this time, but there's just something funny that they're sort of playing that game to try to prove

00:05:44   to people we can do AAA gaming, just like with black magic design. There's just certain partners

00:05:49   that Apple loves to work with and be like, look what we can do with the system. If you really

00:05:53   like lean into it. Yeah. Ben, are you a long time Nintendo fan? I guess, yeah, I had a Nintendo set

00:05:59   of a Genesis, so I guess that that shows my divide. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I stopped gaming

00:06:05   right when I got a job at a school and then, so I missed that whole era. And then as I've gotten

00:06:10   older, I've been able to rediscover the games I couldn't afford when I was growing up. So,

00:06:14   so you're like more of a retro gamer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although I can't, I can't do that on my

00:06:20   iPhone, but yeah. Yeah. I'm sort of the same way. I grew up. I love it. It is. I would say one of

00:06:27   the most, if you could talk to my teenage or even college age self, I think the most surprising thing

00:06:37   my younger self would learn about my now 50 year old self is that I no longer really play video

00:06:43   games. I mean, honestly, I think my younger self would be like, Oh my God, did I have a stroke or

00:06:48   something? Is it, is something wrong with me? But for me and it's been, it sounds like something

00:06:54   similar sort of happened. It was like, once I started working, working, it's like something

00:07:02   had to give time wise. And for me, it was video games. It's like, I still watch lots of movies

00:07:09   late at night. Like, I guess that's the time I'd spend, but I just don't play games anymore,

00:07:12   but I appreciate it. But I'm the same way. Like we have a switch and we have two switches cause my

00:07:18   son took one to college, but the one that's hooked up in our living room, the games I'm most likely

00:07:23   to play are like classic arcade games that I got dig dug. It's just, just like the 1987 coin op dig

00:07:32   dug or something like that. And I got, they re they re-released my beloved golden eye for the

00:07:40   Nintendo 64. Oh yeah. So I play that, but I don't, I'm not, I'm not really up on the new games. I was

00:07:48   thinking about getting this new Mario game that came out. I feel like one of these days I got to

00:07:52   get one of these new games. I know I do not want to play. What's that one that everybody spends like

00:07:58   300 hours playing breath of the wild. Yeah. Zelda, the Zelda games. And I read about them. I enjoy

00:08:07   reading the reviews. I guess the game tracks how many hours you play. And I have friends who they're

00:08:12   like hundreds of hours in and I'm like, I don't know where that time would come from. Like that

00:08:17   game terrifies me because I'm afraid that I would like it. You know, I played an hour and a half

00:08:23   opening of it and it's a tutorial that shows you all the mechanics and like, it's supposed to be

00:08:29   a sandbox. I get it, but I'm like, I, if I can't get through the tutorial one sitting, I have a

00:08:33   list of games for like my retirement. Like I'm going to play through all the like a hundred hour

00:08:38   final fantasy games. So you know, as I'm getting ready to shuffle off my mortal coil, I can just

00:08:43   check off all of these experiences, but like now the Mario one what's remarkable also, and this

00:08:49   like speaks to Nintendo specifically is they were saying that there's like no game passes to it.

00:08:54   You don't have to buy the platinum to your game. It's like a $60 game. You plug it in and you just

00:08:59   start playing. There's no microtransactions. Doesn't even have to do like a 10 gigabyte

00:09:04   download when you plug it in, which is the worst experience for a kid on Christmas. They just love

00:09:09   a download screen and there's like no companies that make this anymore. Maybe that's why I like

00:09:13   the retro games is like I download I'm oh no, sorry. I buy these games. Of course. No, I download

00:09:18   like a one megabyte title and it's like 10 hours of entertainment without any of the BS that you

00:09:23   get right now. Sebastian, are you a game player, a gamer? Yeah, but I'm like generationally different.

00:09:30   My parents never bothered to get us a console or anything. My dad got into PCs. So I grew up with

00:09:37   a PC and was somewhat weary. I didn't love computers as a little kid. It's not very complicated

00:09:43   and confusing probably because they weren't Macs. I was later introduced to Macs. So I played PC

00:09:49   games. We did have like Sonic the Hedgehog, which was like at that point started coming out for the

00:09:53   PC. It was a brand new thing called the CD. So it was a game called Sonic CD and it came with a CD

00:10:00   you could put in your in your stereo to to play the soundtrack, which I was jamming on for a while.

00:10:05   Good stuff. So yeah, GTA one old like DOS games like Wolfenstein 3D. I have my memories of playing

00:10:11   that with with my buddies in elementary school on DOS. GTA one is probably the last like major

00:10:19   triple-a title that I played. I and I love that game. I was I'm still blown away by it. I'm it's

00:10:26   so good. It really was sort of the the type of game my friends and I would fantasize about like

00:10:35   as 12 year olds like wouldn't it be great if you like you could just have like a whole world you

00:10:39   could just go wherever you want and do whatever you want and just want to steal cars. You just

00:10:43   steal people's cars. It seems so alive to me honestly, I was actually just last week looking

00:10:48   into it too if you want to like quickly because I have a kid now so my only experience of video games

00:10:53   now is watching a speedrun which is very appropriate. It's like someone does the game in

00:10:56   three minutes. But it I just recall how incredibly alive it felt and like so open and free and because

00:11:03   of the lack of internet access I had there were just rumors of like oh there might be a tank there

00:11:08   or like a plane in the game or a boat you could find and there was the possibilities were endless

00:11:13   and and just there was a lot left to the imagination. I thought that was really cool.

00:11:17   But I actually kind of got my my start in quote unquote software design helping people make like

00:11:22   mods for Quake 3 and Half-Life so I would do like textures and yeah those kind of things and that was

00:11:29   fun. I was in junior high that was I think Quake 1 and I remember creating a Quake 1 level that

00:11:34   was based on my high school which now you would get a call and I swear it was just the architecture I

00:11:41   knew. But no that's the sort of thing that back then you you might even get like they'll they

00:11:48   might even set up like a little demo in the lobby of the school like look what our talented senior

00:11:52   Ben made it's a live 3D rendering of our high school whereas now yes that is a red flag knock

00:12:00   on the door I mean it's it's funny it's funny what what becomes controversial or or a red flag over

00:12:09   time. Let me say that I do know this and and I know like in broad strokes and I think it's worth

00:12:15   talking about for this speculating about this event next week and the gaming it's almost a

00:12:21   mystery and I think it is within Apple too how they just the Mac just can't gain traction with games

00:12:31   and it's not technical right for the Intel years maybe there was something there about well not

00:12:39   maybe definitely there's something there with Apple's sort of the fuck you stance towards Nvidia

00:12:46   like CPU wise Macs across the board were literally peer-to-peer with PCs because they're just using

00:12:54   Intel chipsets and stuff but on the GPU side the Macs sort of you're gonna use AMD video and and

00:13:03   like it stance was a setback but not not so much it's not like you can't game with the video cards

00:13:10   that you can get for the Intel Macs the game companies just didn't write to those APIs they

00:13:17   wrote to the the Windows gaming APIs you know and that was it things like Steam you could get Steam

00:13:23   on the Mac but it's right it it's missing so many of the games that you can get on all the other

00:13:30   platforms that Steam runs on. But it seems almost cyclical or something like yeah remember when

00:13:35   Steam came to the Mac and there seems like there's these moments in time where like it's like the Mac

00:13:39   is back in gaming and then you know if it's Apple like not like following through with it or people

00:13:44   seeing that the market is just smaller than they would like it to be or but there's these little

00:13:49   peaks and bumps and then there's this long valley afterwards in which we kind of forget about the

00:13:53   Mac as a gaming platform again. Here we are again with like now this time it's for real we're gonna

00:13:58   get some real AAA games everyone. My son who's a sophomore in college I got a gaming PC when he was

00:14:06   I don't know 13, 14 that's what he really wanted and I mentioned it here on the show at least maybe

00:14:11   I've written about it but somehow I've mentioned this and some people I don't have any kind of

00:14:15   religious attachment we're not religiously Apple users it's not a religion I use Apple stuff because

00:14:20   I like it the best and you know there there were there wasn't even like a moment of hesitation like

00:14:26   oh no PC is gonna enter our household internet no it's like that's what he wanted and I you know he

00:14:32   really you know he knew what he was talking about he did the research and I could you know that was

00:14:36   the rule is you explained to me what kind of system you want and why and what components and that

00:14:41   means you're serious about it but a couple years ago somebody at Apple like at an engineering level

00:14:46   reached out to me and just said that people within Apple noticed that if my son bought a gaming PC

00:14:53   what's going on and and just asked me questions about which games he plays and why why he didn't

00:15:00   want to do it on a Mac and and basically a typical Apple person but maybe said we're doubling back on

00:15:07   this whole aspect and taking a look at why the Mac isn't considered a top-tier platform for games

00:15:15   and we're just trying to re-evaluate it from the ground up which I thought was interesting but I

00:15:21   to me haven't seen much come out of it other than the fact that they do seem to have gaming segments

00:15:27   every keynote now no matter what it is right it's a it used to be sort of come and go like if they

00:15:33   really had something to show off on the video for the iPhone there'd be a gaming segment but now it's

00:15:37   like every time yeah I mean it's my thinking is sorry I was gonna say my thinking is that they

00:15:43   they don't they don't actually really care about gaming on the Mac at all it's just that their

00:15:47   future much like how they've been talking about AR and beating the AR drum for like years before

00:15:52   the vision pro is announced is that they need developers to be on board making really good

00:15:58   games for the vision pro to be like a very compelling experience and for the iPhone and

00:16:03   the iPad to be great gaming platforms maybe even the Apple TV but you know I doubt you know now

00:16:08   that we have one architecture you're building for that it's that much easier to just deploy it on

00:16:12   there and monetize that game but I feel like strategy wise I don't think there's a top exec

00:16:18   at Apple that was like we got to do something about this Mac gaming thing I think it's more

00:16:23   strategic than that right so I mean as far as third-party devs it's as simple as the number of

00:16:30   Mac users out there is a rounding error so there's some engineers like okay it'll cost us this amount

00:16:34   to port it and this how much we can make but Apple's solution if you look at what Sony's done

00:16:38   is they have their own studios that like made horizon zero west and it's part of the Activision

00:16:44   like the or all the stuff that leaked they spent something like 300 million dollars on one of these

00:16:51   games as like their tent pole for the PlayStation 5 and so if you look at how much Apple spends on

00:16:57   like Apple TV productions if they put a similar budget into a Mac exclusive triple-a or Mac iPhone

00:17:04   iPad exclusive triple-a title then they could change the narrative but clearly that isn't at

00:17:10   the top of their priorities yeah I think the Apple TV example is I can't think of a better analogy

00:17:16   where they they didn't have their own streaming channel they decided they were going to make one

00:17:23   and they put a lot of money into it and yes they knew they had to kind of bootstrap it and yes when

00:17:29   they launched there were only a handful of shows and that's why the price was $4.99 a month because

00:17:34   I would say right now today Apple TV plus is a fully has a full tank of original content I would

00:17:44   almost say they don't need more I mean I could always fit more sports in or something like that

00:17:48   but you know I feel like it's plenty of original shows maybe they don't have so many original

00:17:53   movies but they've got Martin Scorsese's Flowers of the Killer Moon which is getting all these

00:17:59   accolades from arguably the best living director on the planet and inarguably one of so it's hard

00:18:05   to say see how they could be more serious about TV and movies right they got a Scorsese movie

00:18:10   nothing like that on games like Apple Arcade is a real deal and yes they when they raised the

00:18:15   prices this week for all of this stuff but it's like Apple Arcade to me is so clearly

00:18:21   and I know I think it's the rule actually that all the Apple Arcade games are across all of

00:18:28   Apple's devices there might be some exceptions where they've got some that maybe need a gaming

00:18:34   controller and they're only for the Apple TV or the Mac or something I don't know but for the most

00:18:40   part they all run Mac Apple TV iPad and iPhone like that's part of the the deal to make arcade

00:18:48   Apple Arcade games but they're not the PC games that gamers want to play but this is gonna say

00:18:55   like the first wave of the Apple Arcade titles were a bunch of original titles that I don't know

00:19:00   if they co-financed to make so they were they were exclusives like Sayonara Wild Hearts which was

00:19:06   great it was right and a permanent interactive but so there's a bunch of original titles at first but

00:19:10   then they gradually moved over to convincing companies to take their freeware or the freemium

00:19:15   games that had like gem systems and take out the gems like the Castlevania game it was so

00:19:21   embarrassing it was the exact same game but they just gave you unlimited gems so it's the same

00:19:25   grind mechanic but someone just clicked a button that said like free play basically so I it could

00:19:31   also be that they recognize the type of people who are into arcade are way way more casual and

00:19:36   aren't interested in even indie level titles I don't know right right I mean and casual gaming

00:19:42   is a big deal but it's not what a scary fast event is about yeah yeah yeah yeah and it is it is it is

00:19:50   really to the point that like Apple TV plus is sort of like HBO in its attitude where you just

00:19:55   super high quality stuff they really don't there's no filler like Netflix is always kind of like

00:20:01   people are kind of laughing about how half the shows that come out seem to be some sort of like

00:20:05   crazy filler thing but it arcade I don't want to say it's filler there's tons of amazing games from

00:20:10   developers I know and respect a ton on there but it's it's not quite the same sort of imagine if

00:20:16   Apple had an in-house studio it would look quite a bit different right right that's I mean that

00:20:20   would be my idea if I were there would be like give because these these triple-a titles they do

00:20:25   have budgets very similar to the budgets for major motion pictures 100 200 million dollar budgets

00:20:32   let's put 500 million dollars to make three games and get name brand game designers the people that

00:20:42   gamers love and put the money into it and making make them exclusive and make the gaming get get

00:20:50   piss off all of reddit that this game is only available right oh man make the gamer brain

00:20:56   explode right go back turn the dial all the way back to when halo was going to be a mac exclusive

00:21:04   wow right and do it actually do it and make a mac exclusive or whatever whichever ones of the other

00:21:13   platforms apple silicon exclusive game that makes the gamers go nuts that they their gaming pc can't

00:21:21   play it this is what valve did with their with their headset right like they they added they

00:21:25   made the new sequel to half-life alex which actually I think some of the old firewatch

00:21:30   people worked on they made that exclusive to their their headset their vr thing or vr platform to to

00:21:37   sort of push that forward and I think that would behoove apple to to have titles like that like

00:21:42   absolute blowout huge like triple-a game title have a have an installment on the vision and

00:21:49   maybe on the other platforms I mean it's basically the nintendo playbook where nintendo releases

00:21:54   underpowered hardware like years behind the others but it's the only place you can get mario and

00:21:59   zelda and animal crossing and you don't even want any of the ports of the other stuff coming out

00:22:04   on the other platforms because they look dog ugly like so yeah just become like a nintendo and have

00:22:09   your own ip and just release it only on your devices and you will be able to sell more ipads

00:22:15   when you're saying this scary fast in this in this event pertains to their acquisition of nintendo

00:22:20   and it's actually about mario kart I don't know the colors don't quite job um I I would love for

00:22:29   them to acquire hadeo kajima and have this most bizarre post-modern like two hours of mads mikkelson

00:22:36   ranting about like nanomachines like we did it we have our ip here I guess that the the just to cycle

00:22:44   back to exactly what we expect is the is it going to be the m3 or not right and I I'm a little

00:22:51   confused I'm not a silicon expert and I think I miswrote a little bit this week when I was

00:22:55   speculating about the event when I even speculated that whenever the m3 might come that it would be

00:23:02   derived from the a17 pro hardware apparently the a17 pro is sort of a dead end in that way

00:23:11   the more I kind of knew that before I should know more because ben thompson from my other podcast

00:23:17   knows more and but and I listen to ATP where John Siracusa knows it's a stuff stone cold I guess it

00:23:24   comes down to all right forget if it's derived from the a17 pro or not I think that the big

00:23:28   question is are they is the m3 set for the three nanometer process at tsmc or not no matter which

00:23:36   a series thing it's most derived from let's just say there's going to obviously there will be an m3

00:23:43   chip family either coming next week starting or starting sometime next year I I don't even think

00:23:52   it seemed as far as I can tell though nobody really is even certain whether it's going to

00:23:56   be three nanometer and if it is I guess it's going to be this slightly different process than the one

00:24:01   like a sort of second generation three nanometer process from the a17 pro but I guess that's the

00:24:06   question is is can they hold an event that's worth holding an actual event where people are supposed

00:24:11   to watch and media are coming to new york for for briefings and stuff like that if they're only

00:24:19   announcing max that are still based on the m2 family yeah I'm guessing it has to be a like I

00:24:27   can't see them having a spec bump because they updated the macbook pros this year right like

00:24:32   and then having another update this year that is what would they say like now the screen is

00:24:37   brighter right the battery's better or it's screwed all we're doing the touch bar again

00:24:43   it's back well we went for years for so many years especially I don't know maybe like those

00:24:52   the teen years of the the 2000s leading up to that point where they had that mac round table to say

00:24:58   hey we're gonna we we really do care about pros and we really we know we backed ourselves into

00:25:02   a thermal corner with the trash can uh mac pro we're and practically said we're going they said

00:25:11   we're going to have a pro imac coming out later this year and we asked that will it be called the

00:25:17   imac pro and they were like we're gonna have a pro imac coming out later this year like that's

00:25:23   always how apple people are like they've been trained like we're not going to tell you what the

00:25:26   name is um but I don't know I kind of feel my gut feeling and I could be wrong like that they could

00:25:35   come out with some max that run the m3 like here's the introduction first m3 max my gut feeling says

00:25:43   no though and to me the big tell was that the 15-inch macbook air with the m2 only came out at

00:25:51   wwdc which is just a couple months ago like that to me is a sign was a really strong sign that the m2

00:26:00   is here for is going to be current for a bit and the m3 is sort of a next year's sort of thing

00:26:07   and I could see them especially I don't know if it would just be imax I don't know what else they

00:26:13   could speed bump but if they just say now the imac is on the m2 and we have an imac pro that has the

00:26:20   m2 pro or it's just like the the same chips in the 14 and 16 inch macbook pros could they justify

00:26:28   calling that scary fast I kind of feel like they'd sort of be spinning it because these are chips

00:26:33   we've seen before but if we're going to have to wait until next year for the beginning of the m3

00:26:40   series and then later to get to the higher end m3 hardware it seems like this is where product

00:26:50   marketers earn their keep and calling saying that the m2 and the m2 pro are still scary fast

00:26:57   at the end of 2023 carrying into 2024 is a way to sort of fill that gap with hey don't worry

00:27:05   these things are and they are they are they are really this is really fast hardware yeah I mean

00:27:11   you call it too that the vision pro is going to be shipping with the yeah two suppose right right

00:27:17   and I I keep thinking it would be slightly weird for them to introduce even if they're consumer

00:27:23   products the 1300 MacBook airs with the m3 but this 3500 headset that's coming in like I don't

00:27:33   know end of January or February or something for 3500 has the m2 is what it's it's they can do it

00:27:42   when I reread their hype from WWDC about the vision pro and they really really really emphasize

00:27:49   the r1 chip in that like like they're here's the thing that only apple can do here's what sets this

00:27:58   thing apart silicon wise from anybody else in the headset game it's the r1 that they're talking

00:28:05   about it's the r1 that enables this incredibly low latency from the cameras to what you see in

00:28:11   the headset it's they they I don't even know if they really talked about they're like it has

00:28:16   the blazingly fast m2 chip in it but they didn't really talk about that at all as having any sort of

00:28:23   major part to play and what's what makes vision pro special different low latency super engaging

00:28:31   etc etc it's all about the r1 so I think they could do it but I still feel like it's it's just

00:28:38   like one part of the song that would be like a discordant note yeah anything else what do you

00:28:46   say what do we think I that's what I I'm kind of guessing if you wanted me to guess I'm gonna guess

00:28:50   it's all about iMacs and that nothing else is gonna get updated because I just I see yeah I

00:28:55   suspect that too honestly it feels iMacy to me yeah when was the uh Mac Pro release oh

00:29:05   oh that was wasn't that wwc was it they did the the Mac studio yeah because they did the

00:29:10   Mac studio update you were right that was the studio update but yeah but that makes the Mac

00:29:17   Pro came after that because they were like and now we also finally are finishing the lineup

00:29:22   John Trenas famously got quoted over and over again that will return to the Mac Pro in a future

00:29:27   point in time which is the most concrete announcement on hardware plans Apple's ever made

00:29:32   right and then they finally did it but then the iMac is now I don't know how long it's

00:29:37   since the introduction of the m1 basically has been untouched right yeah definitely yeah it just

00:29:43   came out everybody was excited about the colors everybody was sort of had strong opinions about

00:29:47   the chin and colors on the chin and the fact that there still is a chin and yeah and everybody loved

00:29:55   the colored cables and and then what nothing since not a word and then no more fun colors in ed it's

00:30:02   the right the last time they shipped anything with fun colors right and I was like kind of sleuthing

00:30:08   on this online and I posted this on on all the twitter like social network twitter adjacent

00:30:13   social networks now that there was this weird leak happening around iphone release time where

00:30:18   there were supposedly going to be these color matched cables coming with every iphone which

00:30:23   never materialized because they were USB-C cables people thought they would go with the

00:30:26   iphones and they were all in funny colors right but I bet that would be that would go with because

00:30:31   the accessories on the iMac famously are color matched which is really cool to the actual iMacs

00:30:36   and those have color matching lightning cables now that's obviously not going to be a thing anymore

00:30:41   but the the little finder face yeah also the old the the the iMacs have these really cool

00:30:48   wallpapers that take a little bite out of the hello script yeah the first Macintosh yeah and

00:30:52   if anything screams first Macintosh it's the finder face right so maybe that'll be like

00:30:57   the the thing they remixed with the iMacs this time so maybe it'll be like m2 comes to iMac

00:31:03   maybe there'll be a tease or an introduction of a bigger iMac which is scary fast maybe they'll

00:31:08   put the m3 in that for the first time and maybe they'll spec bump the MacBook pros and showcase

00:31:14   how they're both great for gaming and for developing your vision pro game on it because

00:31:18   it's even more crazy bitchin fast also I think they're overdue for an XDR display update because

00:31:24   it still doesn't do promotion oh man be still my beating heart yes displays that would be great

00:31:29   yeah that that would be super fun I have to me I own the studio display not the XDR but uh maybe

00:31:39   if they came out with an XDR a new XDR I might upgrade find a new home for my studio display but

00:31:45   it the thing that would most excite me about it is even if I don't buy it it would just tell me

00:31:50   that Apple is definitely committed to staying in the display game yes yes like I was so mad for

00:31:57   so long that they weren't making displays and seemingly that they had sort of done the displays

00:32:02   what they long ago did with printers like screw this we're not making them anymore and I miss

00:32:08   Apple printers Apple printers were great and it like back in college at the newspaper at the

00:32:14   student newspaper we bought HP laser jets but Apple was still making a Apple's existence in

00:32:21   the game made HP compete in terms of oh it's it's great you just hook it up get it on your

00:32:27   get it on your ethernet and it just works Apple's absence from the printer game has helped the

00:32:33   printer industry devolve into hell yeah I'm honestly amazed that this is not something that

00:32:39   like some fancy direct-to-consumer startup has solved yet or I know it has because it if you

00:32:45   look back we're gonna be like living in this future right with these like amazing generative

00:32:49   AI tools where the future is truly here you're talking to a completely virtual human with

00:32:54   complete autonomous general intelligence and in the meantime your printer is still going to be

00:32:58   this piece of shit that doesn't work and you have to turn it on and off 20 times to print a piece of

00:33:03   paper yeah yeah so X XDR update with promotion man that would be great because that would to me

00:33:10   solidify yeah we're in this we're in this for the long run we're gonna keep making displays because

00:33:15   we we can't trust anybody else to make good ones Ben question so what what do you what's your

00:33:21   hardware as a as a the developer of the duo what Mac are you using so it's funny like the first

00:33:29   version of halide was built on the first macbook that was with a single USB it's like 2014 the the

00:33:38   13-inch one it was mostly an act of rebellion to see like if you don't really need a large mac

00:33:44   no it wasn't it the 12-inch there was 12-inch yeah I think yeah that's right that's right but it was

00:33:48   the sit it was the first single I still have the mac just as a goof but it's like yeah the single

00:33:53   USB port and then eventually I grew beyond that and for a while I was when it first came out the

00:34:00   M1 mac mini with an XDR display which I was amazed to see worked really well like you couldn't author

00:34:08   like 4k video and resolve on it but it was more than enough for what we needed and so now I'm on

00:34:15   the M1 macbook pro and then I have because of the apple design awards they give you this prize

00:34:21   package of like every item so I have the mac studio that they have with the ultra which I can't

00:34:27   use in the couch so so I end up still using the macbook pro but when it does involve something

00:34:32   like if you're training a machine learning model or you're having to push HDR video then yeah

00:34:37   I bring out the big guns yeah Sebastian what's your what's your hardware well I used to so I

00:34:44   do some 3d work and I used to I was lusting for this for a long time I was like an age-long mac pro

00:34:50   user back in the day the Xeon cheese grater and so when they came out with the 2019 mac pro I

00:34:57   actually used their our proceeds from the app we launched that year specter to buy one one of the

00:35:02   new intel ones and that thing aged like milk that was just incredible it's true I think it

00:35:09   outperformed like a macbook air basically by the moment apple silicon came out even for 3d stuff

00:35:14   it's actually kind of amazing and so nowadays my macbook pro m1 max does everything and it's it's

00:35:23   perfect so I have it hooked up to a pro display xer and I will say they they claimed that the

00:35:28   apple silicon like the mac studio would beat the mac pro in every respect but I did get the wheels

00:35:33   on the mac pro and on a slight incline I will tell you that the mac pro is still way faster than the

00:35:39   mac studio which hardly moves at all that's me I'm the I love just having one mac that I use

00:35:47   whether I'm on the road on the couch or at my desk that I can hook up to a display so me I've the

00:35:51   14 inch m1 macbook pro max literally maxed out max chip 64 gigs of ram and my terrible horrible

00:36:03   hoarder browser tab habit the only thing I'm jealous about with the m2 macbook pros is that

00:36:12   that you can get up to 96 gigs of ram but right I even with my horrible hundreds of safari tabs

00:36:19   open at a time habit I still it can go weeks and still have swap at zero so it's it's the first

00:36:28   first mac that I've had ever that never swaps because of my browser tab habit so maybe 64 is

00:36:35   good for me um all right I'm gonna guess iMac but we'll see there's no more we'll find out next week

00:36:41   let's take a break and let me thank our good friends at trade coffee I don't have any trade

00:36:47   coffee in front of me right now because we're recording in the afternoon but it's it's coursing

00:36:52   through my veins as we speak my caffeine for the day came from trade I love trade coffee here's

00:37:00   the deal it is a subscription service they are not a single roaster it's not like trade is

00:37:07   that got like a factory where they roast beans what trade is is sort of an umbrella on top of

00:37:13   like I think it's over 50 different independent independent roasters around the country with over

00:37:20   450 different coffees so all sorts of really small tiny independent roasters from around the

00:37:27   around the country trade works with them and your subscription they they keep sending you new and

00:37:33   original coffees from different roasters around the country I got one the last batch the batch I

00:37:39   drank today just had a nice little handwritten note on the bag thanks John from the name of the

00:37:45   roaster and it was great coffee it's really it's like really small roasters who just really sweat

00:37:51   the details over their beans and with trade overall when you sign up for an account you tell them as

00:37:58   the coffee comes hey I really like that or that one not so much and then they use that to algorithms

00:38:03   aren't bad all the time this is a great algorithm they use what you like what you dislike to adjust

00:38:09   which beans they send to you on your subscription and for me it only took a couple of rounds before

00:38:16   they zeroed in right on the bullseye of the type of coffees that I like to drink and make at home

00:38:23   it is absolutely terrific over 450 different coffees but again if you're overwhelmed by that

00:38:29   they've got a couple of questions up front that can help you get started it's not overwhelming to

00:38:33   get started even if you're not sure they will guide you through that process and the very best

00:38:38   thing about it in addition to the fact that these things come from small independent roasters is that

00:38:42   as I always say here coffee is produce it starts going bad as soon as it's roasted and you get your

00:38:50   trade coffee delivered to you three four five days after it was roasted it's that fresh it is as fresh

00:38:57   as it can possibly be nothing you buy on a supermarket shelf can possibly compete on

00:39:03   freshness alone let alone quality but the freshness angle alone you just cannot buy store-bought coffee

00:39:08   that competes with the stuff that you get from trade and it just makes such a huge difference

00:39:13   once you go to fresh coffee you just will never ever go back I am a super happy subscriber of

00:39:19   trade but I'm also very happy that they continue to sponsor the show what do you do to get started

00:39:24   it is so easy upgrade your morning routine with better coffee trade is offering talk show listeners

00:39:30   a free bag of coffee with any subscription go to drink trade.com slash the talk show that's drink

00:39:37   trade.com slash the talk show and you get a free bag of coffee with any subscription purchase

00:39:45   drink trade.com slash the talk show all right what do you what kind of grinder do you use

00:39:52   oh I have a it's like a big burr grinder encore nope oh wait yes the encore yeah that's it what's

00:40:01   the name of the company though baratza there we go what what is it it's baratza I think yes

00:40:07   baratza encore yes thank you you knew that's my grinder I've had it for years it runs like a champ

00:40:14   the only thing I could not stand about it all right I'm gonna have to make a note here I will

00:40:19   put it I will put it in the show note for this section I will make the album art a picture a

00:40:25   photo of my grinder I could not stand the font that the word on tour it's terrible it's like that

00:40:34   cino of words yes yes it is it is like like zap fino and it's right there on the front of the

00:40:41   grinder and I had it for years and every fucking morning because I make coffee for myself every

00:40:46   every morning I wake up I grind coffee and I mean it is every day I mean like unless I'm not home

00:40:52   or like I have like an early flight to the airport or something some kind of morning appointment I

00:40:57   make coffee and I had to stare at this ugly fucking logo and so I took my label maker I've got one of

00:41:02   those old old school ones that the the plastic you know what I mean the old school personal label

00:41:09   maker the ones that punch through basically right yeah that punch through to make the colored tape

00:41:13   turn white by the pressure of the plastic and just wrote the word encore with it and taped it over it

00:41:19   because I kind of like the look of that I love the industrial look of those old school labels

00:41:23   and every single morning I look at that little handmade label I put there and it makes me so

00:41:29   happy that it and it just fits perfectly over the encore look I will put it in the show notes

00:41:34   and I'll send you guys a picture I bought a shredder like a small shredder for my office

00:41:40   and it was the design itself I liked it it was kind of cute but it had a gigantic logo over the

00:41:45   top and I took some black gaffers tape and from a distance you can no longer see the logo

00:41:51   oh man I've done that too with the gaffer gaff tape is number one a merlin man taught me this

00:41:59   years ago that every household should have some black gaffer's tape because it's it's the greatest

00:42:03   tape in the world like the whole point of it is it comes from the gaffers in the movie industry

00:42:09   you have to tape like cables and lights and stuff like that but then they have to take the tape off

00:42:13   and move because they you know we need a new setup we need to move the lights so it's like sticky

00:42:17   enough to keep stuff in place but it's not like duct tape where like oh god as soon as you can't

00:42:23   peel it off and then there's residue behind it's like no residue like this perfect mid-ground of

00:42:29   sticky enough to stick and yet doesn't leave residue and it is perfect for covering up labels

00:42:36   shiny things annoying thing I I use gaff tape on one of my old kindles because I don't know at one

00:42:42   point amazon for reasons that I I cannot understand I mean there's a lot of things wrong with every

00:42:48   kindle but one of the kindles I bought had a shiny amazon logo on the front underneath the book

00:42:54   and I'm like it's bad enough you put it I mean this I have so many complaints about the buttons

00:42:59   and the lack of buttons and everything but it's like this goddamn shiny logo and then nice little

00:43:04   piece of gaff tape over it ah problem solved done yeah well even apple doesn't put the macbook pro

00:43:11   text on the front of the screen anymore so if they don't put their brand on it not as a company like

00:43:17   you really shouldn't be putting your logo prominently on your product like that like really

00:43:20   it's not necessary yeah they went back to the macbook logo at one point they it was like they

00:43:25   had it then they went away with it and I thought good it shouldn't be there and then it came back

00:43:30   I don't know if it was for the original m1 macbook air or maybe maybe when the macbook air went retina

00:43:38   remember there was that weird gap oh yeah where the macbook air was not retina and everything else

00:43:43   was and if I but maybe that was it but one of those things like let's just say it was the the

00:43:48   original retina macbook air they put the macbook air logo back under the screen I remember asking

00:43:52   I asked phil shiller I was like why did you do that and it is one of those non-answer answers

00:43:59   and I can tell I could just tell there there was a discussion about it yeah that's funny when you

00:44:07   get to kind of get that feeling well they stamp it into the bottom of the macbook pronoun yeah

00:44:11   it's really nice yeah which is really really nice I love it it makes me very happy every time I pick

00:44:17   it up from the desk and I'm reminded of it I'm like yeah that's nice stamped in there all right

00:44:23   let's talk halide I mean I think it's safe to say this that's the flagship app you guys make I forgot

00:44:28   to mention specter earlier at some basic level you're the halide company for now I mean things

00:44:34   can change your adapting where did the idea what you tell me tell the audience I mean I think

00:44:39   people have heard about it I've linked to it enough but what is halide halide is basically

00:44:45   a camera for your iphone that tries to find the middle ground between a full-fledged complicated

00:44:52   dslr and apple's camera app so it's an app that's easy enough to understand and to help you learn

00:44:58   photography and take better photos because you get more control over the process but not so

00:45:05   completely complicated that it's almost like stepping into an airplane cockpit and being

00:45:09   overwhelmed with all the knobs and switches ben what would your what would your one-line picture

00:45:13   be well it's funny because yeah it's changed over time and I mean that was the original idea is that

00:45:19   we wanted something that would be if we can't carry around a digital slr back when it first came out

00:45:24   all I wanted was manual shutter speed control iso and things like there weren't any iphone apps that

00:45:31   did focus peaking which is a pretty standard feature in cameras so this was before computational

00:45:38   photography was on everyone's lips and so after that then now what is the definition of manual has

00:45:46   changed so now especially we use it more because we give control over turning down some of the

00:45:53   processing that apple includes out of the box they give apis for it but just because they don't want

00:45:58   to turn the first party camera into a cockpit you have to expose on the api level and so it's also a

00:46:04   focus tool so again like the first party camera it would suck to work there because they have the

00:46:10   sisyphean task of having one app that does video and photography because you you see a camera on

00:46:16   you tap on it and so halide just does photography despite everyone's requests to add video and it

00:46:23   just does one tool really like this one specific thing that's a perfect description i agree that

00:46:31   i would i don't know if i would not want to work on apple's camera team because of what you just

00:46:36   said or if i would want to because it's such a challenge and i happen to think it's one of the

00:46:43   best apple ui teams that they have consistently like and it is it's a sisyphean task and and it

00:46:52   go back to like the original iphone camera like the early years the the skeuomorphic years that

00:46:58   steve jobs was still alive years and it really was just a shutter button right and and the

00:47:05   revolutionary breakthrough was pinch to zoom right i mean that you could pinch to zoom on

00:47:10   the viewfinder and like everything else in ios there's no lag when you pinch to zoom

00:47:18   right and that that was a huge feature but otherwise so i'm not downplaying this the

00:47:23   amount of software that went into it and of course i'm sure from the early years onward with the

00:47:28   super crappy sensors back then that the image processing to try to get a decent looking image

00:47:33   it was hard lots and lots of software not putting it down but ui wise man was it simple right i

00:47:39   mean it didn't even have video right this is the and then oh okay we'll shoot video then then they

00:47:43   added one little switch next to the shutter still or video that's it right yeah that was the

00:47:50   beginning of the end because we got the hdr toggle for a while right right and and i actually remember

00:47:55   them at some point at a keynote and i remember i think it was steve that introduced this maybe

00:47:58   was phil but he was talking about how they had patented this new thing where you tap to focus

00:48:04   and tap to tap to expose and tap to focus basically that this was this really revolutionary

00:48:09   new thing it's super universal now right it's everywhere and i'm sure it's more of a defensive

00:48:13   patent if they even can say exclusivity to that at all but it it belies how complicated or at least

00:48:21   different cameras were before then where i mean the first iphone had a fixed focus lens it didn't

00:48:26   even have autofocus it just everything that's in focus already wasn't and then they yeah they

00:48:30   started adding little things like video and autofocus and things we consider to be mvp

00:48:36   things now right it's probably if either of you can think of an example that even competes with it

00:48:43   tell me but i would say it's the most fiddly app apple ships with ios i mean

00:48:51   fiddly and i don't mean this in a disparaging way i i just mean that it really does have a lot of

00:48:57   stuff in it right i mean you get to pick which lens you get to drag up and pick aspect ratio

00:49:04   you you you could apply one of their filters in the viewfinder before you shoot if you want

00:49:12   what i'm looking at it right now as we speak you've got to be able to flip the camera around

00:49:17   turn the flash on and off turn in video you can turn action mode on and they've got to make all

00:49:23   these decisions like action mode isn't a separate mode that you swipe left to right on it's a toggle

00:49:31   on regular video you get to switch between 4k and hd you get to pick the frame rate 24 30 60

00:49:40   all these little that's a lot of stuff to pack on screen and yet still like you guys said

00:49:46   fundamentally it has to be for i would guess at least 95 of iphone owners tap the app icon frame

00:49:57   tap the shutter so like you were saying like picking lenses even beyond giving control it

00:50:02   needs to intuit what the user intended more so than what they actually get so like you can pick

00:50:09   a 3x or a 5x lens in the app and you think it's a lens but if the system detects that it's too low

00:50:15   of a light or if you're trying to focus on something closer than the minimum focus distance

00:50:18   it'll quietly switch over for the user so it has to deal with like these leaky abstractions when

00:50:24   when they had that year they had the macro mode and people were complaining about how shift snapped

00:50:28   from perspective well unless unless you have like a motor on the lens that's moving things around

00:50:34   like you just can't make it transparent so it has it's tasked with making it feel like it's this

00:50:40   magic box you press the zoom button you tap the button and it just works but then they have to go

00:50:45   against all these leaky abstractions yeah yeah i think i wrote about this in my review like briefly

00:50:52   but apple has always had this clear fundamental philosophy around their camera design where their

00:50:56   camera app is not just an app they see camera as a product that is just as big of a product as

00:51:02   iphone and the moment you're in that experience they might talk about different lenses and they

00:51:08   have different sensors and all these different specs or whatever but for you as a user it's just

00:51:12   one camera and it just happens to be able to zoom from 0.5x to 25x out and it just can do all these

00:51:20   things and they do insane stuff in the factory like matching up components to micron level stuff

00:51:25   right to make sure that this kind of like lens switching doesn't go all jarring like they go

00:51:30   through stuff like you wouldn't believe the kind of integration between hardware and software that

00:51:34   they do in that team to achieve what they do that's truly like some of the most amazing

00:51:38   engineering today that they do there yeah they spend less time on that in the keynotes anymore

00:51:44   and i think for good reasons they have plenty of other stuff to talk about but like i would say

00:51:50   like the last few years of phil shiller as head of product marketing and shiller being the like

00:51:58   in the spot where jaws is now talking about like focus pixels and stuff like that like they

00:52:04   they they were some of the most technical slides and segments of an apple keynote i think ever

00:52:13   uncharacteristically so yeah yeah definitely really and it really helps that shiller himself

00:52:22   is a pretty serious longtime prosumer photographer and knows it and therefore really wasn't like just

00:52:30   reading off a script like he really understands the actual and hardware engineering complexity

00:52:38   of of what they're doing and his and his enthusiasm for it i think helped carry through

00:52:44   those segments of those keynotes for the people out in the audience who really just want to point

00:52:47   and shoot but as like an explanation for what they're doing i and the other thing but like what

00:52:53   you said sebastian like that they're sort of see camera as its own product to me is also exemplified

00:53:00   and this is a theme i want to come back to with you guys but with the the ui theming of the camera

00:53:05   app right like post ios 7 apple really refocused the company on a sort of doesn't matter which app

00:53:18   it is we're all going to stick to this sort of ui aesthetic and do things like color hints so

00:53:27   okay notes gets yellow and camera get or a calendar gets red i think and so you can pick

00:53:34   a custom spot color but you're going to stick to this very very consistent look and and they've

00:53:41   it's 10 years now since iowa 7 or or uh right yeah i was 17 to iowa 7 if anything i think they've

00:53:50   not just stuck with it but have gotten more consistent and camera isn't foreign to that look

00:53:58   right it's it's like they've found a look for it that it doesn't look like it's out of place but

00:54:05   it's its own language right and again we'll come back to it with you guys like custom version of

00:54:10   uh san francisco font right like a sort of industrial cameras ask version of the font for

00:54:18   all the little bits of text like switching from photo to video to portrait like i'm looking at

00:54:23   that capital r and portrait right there and it doesn't look like they are in any other variant

00:54:29   of san francisco but it's perfect for this right but that's the type of details they sweat so on

00:54:34   the one hand it raises the bar and i think they do a great job but on the other hand

00:54:40   the quality of it in some ways makes it harder to be a third-party camera app oh yeah yeah i think

00:54:49   yeah even if you look back since iowa 7 it's the one that stayed the closest to that redesign too

00:54:55   back then they were the only ones who weren't using alvetica even in iowa 7 it was right didn't

00:54:59   like type in there right but the design still looks a lot like that and if you go to all these

00:55:03   android phones uh it's kind of this magical thing like since the iphone came out people look at the

00:55:08   hardware design like oh everything looks like a blackberry and then it looks like right looks like

00:55:12   an iphone but every camera app this is like amusing to me it's like no no end because i

00:55:18   designed camera app so like i know there's a lot of ways to like you know solve this problem but

00:55:23   somehow they all look exactly like the iphone camera with the same swipey thing at the bottom

00:55:27   to change between modes and the same little lens picker and and inevitably as apple changes a little

00:55:33   tiny fundamental thing it just somehow trickles out totally the android phones too it just shows

00:55:38   that they are really like in a place where they are a market leader on this because yeah yeah

00:55:42   it's really hard to find it it's hard to find an android phone that doesn't use black background

00:55:48   with yellow as the spot color as the color scheme of their camera app right which is exactly like

00:55:54   apples and the defenders of that are like well what other colors are you going to use and it's

00:55:59   like you can use any color you want ben i think i interrupted you oh no like it's kind of no better

00:56:08   illustration of the google approach and the apple approach is that google for a few years there was

00:56:12   ahead of like they did the night mode stuff and like if you read the research papers like mark

00:56:18   levoit and like all that team was doing was like revolutionary and you know it didn't take that

00:56:22   long to find an apple and apple did its own thing but google never set the design language or the

00:56:30   productization of a lot of these things they never wrapped it up in a way that you'd be like oh this

00:56:35   makes sense even when you get to like stuff like that weird mode now where you can cut out people's

00:56:41   faces from different photos yeah and like it's just like no i do not want this that's the worst

00:56:46   demo you you convinced me never to buy this camera this is awful i watch a lot of sports especially

00:56:53   in the fall so the and it's so this is the time of year and it i think it's helpful it's like

00:56:58   i watch football i watch playoff baseball i like to watch live and so it's like the only time of

00:57:03   the year where i watch normal tv commercials and then i go months and months where i only watch

00:57:07   stuff streaming or otherwise skip the commercials and so i'm seeing the google pixelate commercials

00:57:13   a lot and the more i see their commercials showing that feature the the best take feature

00:57:18   the more it it like rankles me it's like it's not like a subtle like oh we'll go back you you

00:57:28   half a second because it was better than when you hit the shutter it is like no this is completely

00:57:33   manipulated and they show all these faces being moved around and it's like this is not a photograph

00:57:39   this was not a moment in time it's funny is i actually so i've been for some reason been

00:57:45   re-watching a lot of the old keynotes where apple is introducing camera features and i think it's

00:57:49   phil shiller with the iphone 7 or maybe even earlier that introduced a feature where if you

00:57:54   take a burst with the iphone camera it'll intelligently go through the burst to see

00:57:58   where people blinked and or and or smiled and pick the frame with the fewest closed eyes basically

00:58:05   right and it's like there's a lot of ways like to ben's point where you can wrap this up as

00:58:09   a product where the marketing slash communication around it doesn't give you that icky feeling

00:58:15   but google is not the best positioned or right traditionally the best company at doing that

00:58:21   maybe facebook is slightly worse yet but like they just they're good at getting the ick yeah it

00:58:27   would be like if you took a burst of a dozen photos or still is i think you take a burst of

00:58:32   a dozen photos and they algorithmically think these two are the good ones and they'll put like

00:58:37   a dot in the corner and so like you you're welcome just to go through and pixel peep all 12 of them

00:58:43   but you get to the one with the dot and you're like yeah that does look like a good one okay

00:58:47   keep that one throw the rest away well if i were to design the products let's just put it this way

00:58:51   you would just take the photo and it would just automatically compose one where everybody looks

00:58:55   their best instead of like i think there's something rather inhuman about swapping people's

00:58:59   heads out yes it doesn't it'll never not feel weird right so like if we're going to keep this

00:59:05   into the halloween theme like great for halloween a little scary otherwise i'm going to take people's

00:59:10   heads and change them when did you guys start halide when was the first version i want to say

00:59:15   we well we we met in 2016 for coffee and we shipped we we put a line in the sand we're like we got to

00:59:21   finish this up before dub dub we're going to be busy so like the week before dub dub 2017 okay

00:59:26   that's right yeah yeah ben actually slid into my twitter dms back when it was twitter he was like

00:59:32   hey there's these new apis for manual controls for the camera app and he read i wrote a what was it a

00:59:38   review of the like m that you read yeah yeah your two year long review of the m8 yeah yeah yeah and

00:59:44   i'm not maybe it was the m240 or something but anyway one of the cameras i used to write camera

00:59:48   reviews and he was like this guy seems like a fun fun dude to design a camera with we kind of knew

00:59:53   each other a little bit but that's when we we started in earnest and we thought it would just be

00:59:57   like a a scratch around each kind of situation we thought everything out there was kind of bad

01:00:02   or at least not to our liking and then we just decided oh why don't we take a stab at this and

01:00:07   make a camera that we think is nice to use and then eventually i think we were kind of on and

01:00:12   off it was just a side project and then yeah i think you ben maybe were like we got to ship

01:00:16   this thing at some point let's like put in a little sprint and and just get it out and maybe

01:00:20   a couple people will download it and you know we'll move on it's funny like some of the stuff

01:00:24   that didn't make 1.0 we didn't have the volume button capture stuff built in because it required

01:00:29   a really hacky way to work so like 1.0 there was no way to press the volume button to capture

01:00:34   because it was like so hacky we we can take it like a week later yeah can i take a volume button

01:00:41   aside because we're gonna write a blog post about this so apple has announced nobody nobody's aware

01:00:45   of this but at wwc during state of union apple announced all these really amazing features like

01:00:49   zero shutter lag like so our app can now take a photo before you've even pressed the shutter

01:00:53   button it's like crazy rolling buffer stuff like really cool we've got that the one feature they

01:00:59   haven't released on ios yet is an api to take photos with the volume buttons and back in 2010

01:01:07   there was an app called camera plus yes they figured this out but they could just look at

01:01:12   the volume and then if you press the volume button you would take a photo and apple unceremoniously

01:01:17   kick them off the app store thing there's no way in hell you can do that and right then the next

01:01:23   year scott forestall is on stage showing off the iphone 4 or something or the 4s and he's like and

01:01:29   check it out you can just take a photo with the volume button and since then there's okay so camera

01:01:35   plus has reinstated the same year by the way after going to the press which they were explicitly told

01:01:40   that wouldn't help yeah it never works it never works never works never go to the prep and but we

01:01:46   still don't have an api for this so sometimes someone says like hey it's weird when i open

01:01:50   hell i my volume changes a little bit and we're like yeah so because you can only detect if the

01:01:55   volume changes but if you're at zero percent and someone presses down you don't get an event for it

01:01:59   it's a death by a thousand cuts of like okay if you should bring up the photo reviewer and you

01:02:06   don't want to be able it's it's like all these little stupid things and finally our long-standing

01:02:11   national nightmare is over whenever they release this they're finally fixing it this year possibly

01:02:16   13 years later we might get an api to do this but it's interesting too right because it makes you

01:02:20   think okay what if you're like suddenly something really loud plays like and then you want to change

01:02:25   the volume but there's an app that hijacks the volume button and you can't do that right i kind

01:02:29   of get that but yeah still it i just wanted to say like oh yeah i think we'll finally be able to

01:02:35   do this now so yeah it's funny and i remember the camera plus situation i remember it being and it

01:02:41   was it was a pretty big hit app i don't know if they're still doing well i mean you guys might be

01:02:45   more aware of i mean they're out if they are they're somewhat of a competitor but i know it

01:02:50   was a hit for a while and it did cool things with filters and stuff like that it had had a nice ui

01:02:55   i guess what i remember when that was controversial it it's like on the one hand it's a very obvious

01:03:02   feature right and it's like the way it's like you said like the way forestall presented it it's like

01:03:06   yeah isn't this obvious like all of a sudden like and it to me it goes back to the original

01:03:13   steve job's presentation of the original iphone where it's like why aren't we going to put buttons

01:03:18   because every app wants its own button so we'll just make them all in software right and it's

01:03:23   sort of like hey this little rectangle in your hand becomes these different things you open the

01:03:30   calculator app and you're just holding a calculator that's what it looks like it just looks like it's

01:03:34   a calculator you open the calendar app and it's like it's a it you have a pocket calendar in your

01:03:38   hand that's what it is it's not it you know and and that skeuomorphic look even emphasized that

01:03:46   more right it's like look it's a little calendar with leather at the top and stuff like that

01:03:50   that's what it is it's not a system running an app in the system the little device becomes this thing

01:03:58   and so yes when it becomes a camera it doesn't it make all the sense in the world that there's

01:04:03   an actual physical button to hit to take a picture it's like that's the way forestall presented it

01:04:08   but i i feel like conversely at that time there was sort of a philosophy at apple that the app

01:04:16   gets the screen right you go from corner to corner you get the whole screen but just the screen

01:04:24   the hardware was the systems right so like and obviously for example it it would literally be

01:04:31   disastrous if an app could take over the home button back then right because you needed the

01:04:36   home button to get out of the app right so the home button obviously had to be off limits api-wise

01:04:42   taps and i it's like volume though it's like oh yeah why not for a camera app let them take volume

01:04:49   but i feel like there is this philosophy of no no no those are actual volume buttons and the

01:04:54   user should be able to use them to change the volume at any at all times so you can't use them

01:04:59   for a camera shutter you can't use them as the buttons for a game you can't can't because i think

01:05:04   people tried the same thing back then with games like and obviously volume buttons aren't good for

01:05:09   twitchyness but you know i don't know you could do something in a game with a hardware button

01:05:14   yeah so it's almost like the same reason max ship with the right button disabled

01:05:19   so they don't want to allow developers to make the assumption you can build an experience around this

01:05:25   hardware component because who knows maybe apple in the future will change from clicky buttons to

01:05:30   like a swipey dial or something right and also just as far as like usability they don't want to

01:05:35   teach people to exit this canvas and start pressing buttons on the side as a core interaction right

01:05:40   right right and even now it's like it it i know some people get confused and it's actually kind

01:05:47   of clever but it's like the the they call it the side button it doesn't really have a name but the

01:05:53   the side button has to be off limits to apps for security reasons like that's why when you verify

01:06:01   that's why it's used for apple pay and it's like when you do an apple pay they're like you have to

01:06:05   double click this button and then they show on the screen on your phone this button right here you've

01:06:12   got to double click this to confirm because if it if the interaction for the payment was entirely on

01:06:18   screen there'd be nothing to prevent an app from putting up a fake confirmation button and all of a

01:06:24   sudden you're think you're paying one way and you're actually getting ripped off and paying

01:06:28   another but the fact that that hardware button is off limits to the software means that when you

01:06:34   double click it to confirm you can be the software can be assured yes the user an actual human being

01:06:41   actually double clicked that actual button right yeah there was a brief moment in time where the

01:06:46   subscription app craze started and the all the iphones had home buttons and your touch id sensor

01:06:52   was yeah there and these scummy apps would just throw out random pay walls and when people tried

01:06:56   to exit right sometimes it would just trigger them to purchase it and i was like this was something

01:07:01   that was this wasn't thought through very well and i wonder if like they saw a big dip in app store

01:07:06   revenue after that i don't know it was a real thing i know that that was a real problem and

01:07:10   i talked to somebody who's involved somebody who's on the team that made the original iphone 10

01:07:15   and they said like that was the biggest problem with the touch id sensor on the home button was

01:07:22   that they and and those type of things when you're an honest person like most people are and like

01:07:29   everybody most people at apple are it doesn't even pop into your head that you would give people a

01:07:34   reason to use the home button to exit and then time it so that you pop up a confirmation for

01:07:39   a payment at that time and then as their thumb hits the button you've just confirmed a payment

01:07:44   when all you wanted to do is get out of this app that has seemingly locked you in i remember

01:07:49   hearing a rumor that when the ipad first came out there were games you could download for your cat

01:07:54   and it was just like show this thing would run on screen and this so your cat would pop the screen

01:07:58   and you'd let the app run for 10 minutes and leave it with your cat and then 10 minutes later it

01:08:02   would show a pop-up buy a hundred gems for 20 dollars and the cat would be like yeah okay oh

01:08:07   yeah i like brilliant that's horrible but you know what right it is i always think that when

01:08:16   new scams come out it's like oftentimes i'm like i hate you and i don't know how you sleep at night

01:08:20   but i admired the cleverness of the hole you found in the system here that you're exploiting the other

01:08:27   part though just circling back to okay you're going to make a business out of a pro camera app

01:08:33   for the phone you've got apple's camera app on one side and so the built-in camera app that

01:08:38   everybody has and has all the first party advantages in addition to the fact that it's not just like

01:08:44   like all of apple's built-in apps have the first party advantage because they're built in

01:08:50   the camera app has the additional advantage of being marketing wise the primary thing that apple

01:08:59   sells phones about right like the the one thing that they've every single year for at least

01:09:06   i would say like the iphone 4 era onward has had entire marketing campaign campaigns

01:09:16   just about the camera right like shot on iphone is the longest running ad campaign the company has

01:09:22   ever had and i don't think it's going to stop i think it has at least another 10 years ahead of it

01:09:27   well they'll just keep running the exact same ad shot on iphone and just show really cool photos

01:09:34   blown up to billboard size so you're competing against this app that has the full attention of

01:09:39   the company a level talent within the company and then on the other side the app store has a lot of

01:09:46   camera apps yeah right it's a crowded field and so i feel like a lot of people let's go back to 2017

01:09:54   you're like hey maybe we should make this app and scratch our own itch would be like well you hope

01:09:59   you guys don't have any hopes of making a business out of it because you're getting squeezed on both

01:10:02   sides right that's how you said my actual mom said that my mom was aware of the fact there were so

01:10:08   many camera apps she's like well that seems like there's an awful lot of apps already doing camera

01:10:12   stuff in the app store and i was like well it's not really for about making money it's more about

01:10:16   like doing what we like to do i like design i like iphones i like cameras why not right and we were

01:10:23   very surprised to see it take off so much and like kind of resonate and i think it was because it was

01:10:28   so opinionated and we didn't we never and to this day don't make an illusion that we're trying to

01:10:33   compete with apple's camera right for one the silicon advantage is crazy they can literally

01:10:38   do all sorts of stuff we can never do and i don't really blame them for it if they want to stay on

01:10:41   the cutting edge they can't build an api for every single invention they do and all that sort of

01:10:47   thing and we don't want to i don't want to be on the design team that has to make a camera for every

01:10:51   single person under the sun like literally every person on this planet needs to be able to use their

01:10:56   camera app we have a luxury of designing for a niche and that's that's a really nice luxury to

01:11:01   have but we just went really overboard with that niche we were like okay let's we i think one of

01:11:07   the biggest things we saw which started our collaboration was just that cameras are delightful

01:11:12   objects they're super tactile if you give a camera to a child they play with the knobs and the dials

01:11:17   and the clickiness on the aperture ring and and a phone kind of by definition will have to lose that

01:11:24   you're tapping this pane of glass but what could we do to make it as tactile as possible and we kind

01:11:30   of we went a little overboard with it as we tend to do with our apps but we put like a little little

01:11:35   sort of virtual paper manual that you would kind of leave through that was styled after an old

01:11:39   polaroid manual and we made a custom typeface that was kind of looked like the before apple had one

01:11:44   i will add that that kind of looked like the sort of etched lettering you would see on like a like

01:11:49   a rez ice lens and those kind of little things some things didn't work and we dropped them and

01:11:53   some things worked and it just resonated with people and back then it was all about like now

01:11:57   you can take raw photos on your iphone too which the first party camera couldn't do and sometimes

01:12:02   you could get a nicer shot of it if you put some effort into into editing that and i think that's

01:12:06   kind of the the note we we hit yeah i think that on the apple side of things a healthy ecosystem

01:12:15   a healthy reason to build an sdk to begin with is that you want other companies to fill in the stuff

01:12:21   that is not your primary fields and like as much as i loved aperture for mac i think it makes sense

01:12:27   that this is not the fields or this is not an app that apple wanted to be in they want to build

01:12:31   products for the broadest possible market and so i think there's a lot to be said that like yeah we

01:12:36   don't want to compete with the first part of camera mind you you can you can like get an extra 10 of

01:12:41   extra features like you can know nothing about raw or white balance or any of that and you just want

01:12:46   manual focus and focus peaking and these little things and we have users who use the app just like

01:12:52   that because they just want that little extra something and that's cool but then once you start

01:12:56   getting into pro raw like we would actually so like last year we were able to ship something

01:13:01   that allowed you to say 48 megapixel jpegs when you could only do it with pro rock which i i didn't

01:13:05   realize was available in the first party camera until recently like so giving people who are a

01:13:11   little more sophisticated that extra whatever they want i think that's a lot of the bread and butter

01:13:17   now as far as other apps in the app store that could be doing the same thing

01:13:20   are there ever too many love songs no i'm i'm a jerk no i mean like there's more realistic is

01:13:29   like there's a market for a porsche a ferrari a mercedes right you don't need to dominate something

01:13:37   if we were building a social network yeah we'd be totally screwed because that's a zero-sum game but

01:13:42   as far as something where people want quality experience i think it's much fairer to compete

01:13:47   on quality and value add than worrying about one winner takes all yeah that's that's my take i mean

01:13:55   and i say this from the vaguely similar perspective of somebody who before halide worked on a notes app

01:14:03   right which had the same problem right we me and brent simmons and dave whiskas made vesper which

01:14:08   was sort of to notes app what halide is to camera apps apple makes a good notes app there's lots and

01:14:15   lots of notes apps in the app store and we didn't make it but i think i think we could have for other

01:14:20   reasons but i still think the our basic idea that our idea when we got started is if we're better

01:14:25   than everybody else we have a chance and i i think that's where halide has thrived is it's great

01:14:33   right it looks great it is fast it has you guys come up with cutting edge whatever is capable from

01:14:40   the hardware you guys can take advantage of it and do it technically impressive things in addition to

01:14:46   the fact that you've got the visually pleasant things like a commissioning a custom typeface

01:14:53   right which is i i love i love sebb calling it a little overboard i mean it's a lot overboard

01:14:59   but that right it is it's a lot overboard and we we talk a lot privately and we not privately but

01:15:07   personally on on chat and i've told you from like the beginning how much i love the shutter button

01:15:14   in halide it is the nicest i'm looking at it right now it is still it is like the nicest little

01:15:21   thing i can i press it even i'm not i there's nothing in the frame that's worth taking and i

01:15:25   just like pressing it it is a beautiful beautiful it is the nicest looking button on the entire

01:15:34   iphone in any app it is right all right i like to and we built a tiny physics engine for specter's

01:15:41   dial so when you flick it we didn't use any of the stuff they have just like yeah i want to this will

01:15:45   be fun and i think one of the difficult things especially if you're a two-person team is having

01:15:51   a taste of like you love apple products you love premium products but also recognizing like

01:15:56   the limitations and i think it's something we've worked on that we can't spend the same resources

01:16:02   apple does on one feature years getting something or you end up like well you end up like humane

01:16:10   but like right you end up never shipping anything right so like for us we end up we're getting

01:16:16   better now i think making fighting the right battles and knowing where most attention is

01:16:20   going to be going and like the analogy going back to games would be apple is a triple-a

01:16:24   gaming studio of apps and for us you can still build a polished and um authentic and

01:16:31   a cozy i don't know experience even if you're a two-person team as long as you pick the right

01:16:36   battles is one of the i feel like now that apple has got it's always been an issue with apple

01:16:43   apple's always had a a unique relationship with third-party developers in a way that let's say

01:16:50   their biggest long-term rival microsoft has always everybody mocks balmer for the developers

01:16:58   developers developers developers developers developers develop because he was all sweaty but

01:17:04   it's a funny thing but there is a truth to it though that microsoft has relationship to

01:17:10   third-party developers was like maybe we won't do everything you want but you will at least listen

01:17:15   to you and there's open channels and we'll tell you why and we'll tell you all sorts of things

01:17:20   and it's just everything i know about it it's way less of a black box than the third-party

01:17:25   developer relationship with apple right like just reporting bugs or getting progress on bugs

01:17:32   you've reported when in feedback i'm never going to not call it radar but yeah it it anybody's

01:17:40   listened to any podcasts with developers on it is going to find at some point find a developer

01:17:45   really really mad about a really good bug report like totally reproducible like three lines i have

01:17:53   an xcode project that is three lines of source code that reproduce the bug every time and it

01:17:58   doesn't get fixed and they don't hear anything and then a year later it's fixed and it's like what

01:18:04   oh what happened or whatever or never gets fixed but uh it did and it's just an overall large just

01:18:12   writ large even from the power user perspective the fear that apple is so focused on the consumer

01:18:18   and the just to stick to the camera they just hit the shutter button level of usability across the

01:18:25   system that they're losing their desire to appease power users but it seems to me that with the camera

01:18:35   in addition to the fact that they obviously spend an inordinate amount of attention on their own

01:18:40   camera app that they have provided and continue to provide additional apis for apps like halide

01:18:50   or like on the video side filmic for pros like pro type apps that they're serious about providing

01:18:56   in addition to their own app camera apis so ben like how where am i right to say that that that

01:19:05   they are pretty they seem pretty enthusiastic about providing apis for people like you yeah i

01:19:11   mean they're like when they launch pro raw that's a perfect example because we had just spent like 18

01:19:16   months building mark 2 and like we have features in there to make raw easier and like a month or

01:19:22   actually right before we launch it they announced and here's pro raw like wow i could have saved

01:19:26   three months of my life if i'd known that was coming well that's going up there so they're not

01:19:30   going to like compare that to again like a partner if you're if you're working with sony on the next

01:19:33   playstation they seed you hardware years in advance so that you can help them on launch day

01:19:38   sell the new thing and i get that because on the flip side look at all that stuff that's leaked

01:19:42   around the switch too right right but so on the that that all said like as soon as they launched

01:19:47   uh pro raw they said like and we're also going to be shipping an api at this before the end of the

01:19:51   year and they did and they even kind of explained like where it was coming from and what what the

01:19:56   intent of this is so sometimes like i would say most of the time they try to get something out as

01:20:03   as soon as after public launch as possible but then there's stuff like night mode which is our

01:20:08   we're asking users what do they miss most in the app and it's night mode and they just don't expose

01:20:13   that as an api to third-party devs and i kind of get why because there are certain features in the

01:20:17   first party camera like panorama mode where it's just like so niche and it would be kind of how do

01:20:23   you expose that to a third-party app without then hand holding them through the usability but that

01:20:29   said like we'd kill for night mode like it's the number one pain point yeah yeah and stuff just

01:20:36   randomly breaks right like like ben said like we don't get like advanced iphone hardware and they

01:20:41   speaking of a black box like they're obviously not going to put anything api wise ahead of time

01:20:47   being to the development versions of ios so by the time the new devices hit like clockwork usually

01:20:53   our app is super broken depending on what's going on the final version of ios or the final new

01:20:59   device and that can be kind of a scramble for us a lot of our users assume that we are buddy buddy

01:21:04   with apple and then we just get to play with the new iphones but like we're just in line with

01:21:07   everybody else in the morning trying to get a device so we can start troubleshooting it

01:21:12   and sometimes that also means that you can you don't get an answer to your bugs so when the 10s

01:21:16   came out and the 10r we had a new portrait depth mode in hallad and we were like there's a weird

01:21:22   issue with the depth thing going on and they just wouldn't they couldn't get an answer to us because

01:21:28   they were too busy being secretive about it and trying presumably to ship this and then we weren't

01:21:33   sure if it was going to be fixed or not in the final shipping version of ios so we just ended

01:21:36   up building our own portrait blur for it because yeah i mean it's also like there was an issue with

01:21:43   saving photos the camera roll that was a bug in one of the demons i learned way too much about

01:21:48   internals of ios and how photos are saved to an asset demon through this but for like a year it

01:21:53   was the number one bug and we ended up having to build like a feature we called rescue where before

01:21:58   we try to write the camera roll because sometimes photos would disappear like we would save you a

01:22:02   local copy and it involves like to sort of show apple and i kind of wonder like how much they

01:22:08   have as far as telemetry when they run these bugs but we showed them statistics based on how many

01:22:13   people are using this and it's almost like if you're in a large company as if it's almost as if

01:22:17   we're the we're the satellite office of apple reporting bugs sometimes where like you have a pm

01:22:22   at a large company and their priority is the next big thing and if you're at a large company you

01:22:26   have to make a case based on reason of like this is how many people are impacted it's not just me

01:22:31   insisting you fix this bug here's a concrete case if i had a keynote i'd show you it like and so

01:22:37   we've gotten better at that too and i think that over time as we've been better at reporting the

01:22:41   bugs i think that they've gotten better as soon as they see one from our company i think they're

01:22:46   better at getting it screening like oh it's those guys we better move that one to the top of the

01:22:50   line they're pretty good at this so all right i brought up video what about have you guys have

01:22:57   you guys considered adding video or is is still photography a big enough ongoing bite and

01:23:08   specialization for halide halide is not going to record video i love video right but i love video

01:23:17   right halides never i'm so happy to announce halide is never i love ever ever going to get

01:23:26   video and it will not get my mojis and uh yeah yeah yeah and there are apps like i said like

01:23:34   there's filmic i think is it black magic who just came out with a new app it's similar because the

01:23:40   video capabilities of these things are better and better and people really are it's i know when

01:23:45   soderberg shot his first the first like real feature steven soderberg film on an iphone

01:23:51   it kind of had it was like part of the the the aesthetic of the movie i forget what the title

01:23:56   of that first one was but then he shot another one and it's like this doesn't look like it was shot on

01:24:00   a phone it's not supposed to and it's they're not shooting with the built-in camera app they're

01:24:06   using filmic or one of those things there's there's i would i would the best analogy i have when we

01:24:12   built halide in 20s well we talked about in 2016 and that fall they released raw for iphone and

01:24:17   ios 10 and that was when sebastian and i were like we gotta do this and like i would say that with

01:24:22   log video uh on iphone that's its raw moment of like okay now now you can really treat this more

01:24:30   as a filmmaking device and like i'm excited like a lifetime ago i my my first career i wanted out

01:24:37   of school was to work in visual effects and i loved like turns out building for websites

01:24:43   one fraction is difficult like you can actually have you can actually have a life outside of work

01:24:48   but along the short is like i love i love video and i love what they're doing with it and it'd

01:24:53   be my dream to play around with it but it's you also have to realize like if you start adding a

01:24:58   bunch of features like to halide you don't end up with a horse you end up with a camel like yeah i

01:25:02   could use another hump there oh it should have a lot of water so you can walk right over a few days

01:25:06   and before you know it you end up with this like terrible product and so half of our struggle is

01:25:12   just like saying no to stuff that we really want to build like with with orion like that was

01:25:17   originally going to be we were looking at you could hook up webcams to your ipad and like okay

01:25:21   well maybe that'd be cool if you could get manual control over a webcam and halide for ipad and now

01:25:26   it sucked so we were like yeah let's not build that that isn't good enough and so it ended up

01:25:30   being like okay well then orion came about it like with just this one-off thing for that purpose yeah

01:25:35   yeah specter is also a good example we had a lot of people ask us with the first version of hell

01:25:39   that like why can't i take a long exposure your limit to one third of a second and we said well

01:25:44   that's the actual hardware limit on the api level for the camera you can't take a longer frame than

01:25:48   that and they said well there's these other apps that do long exposures and i would get some

01:25:52   somewhat upset being like well it's not real it's they just stitched together a bunch of photos it's

01:25:57   not a real long exposure and then i realized like i'm being a purist for the sake of it and it

01:26:01   doesn't make any sense what if what if we were to make this and like what would it look like so me

01:26:05   and ben we sit down and we we work on this long exposure thing and it looked really cool but we

01:26:10   had to make all these different decisions and and options and things that didn't really feel true to

01:26:14   something that would fit in hell it was starting to kind of look like homer simpson's car from

01:26:18   the simpsons we had like three different horns for different sounds so we thought what if we

01:26:22   spin it into an app on its own and that actually gave us the opportunity where halide is somewhat

01:26:26   for intermediate users if you graduate from the camera app maybe you want to you understand what

01:26:31   shutter speed is etc you know what raw files are what if we make it the long exposure you don't

01:26:35   have to think about anything like that we don't even use a single word from the photographic

01:26:39   lexicon and we just make it and we make things easier too so we just like build use ai to like

01:26:45   we're not required a tripod anymore we don't make it technical at all you just tap the button get a

01:26:49   long exposure if you don't even know what that is and that was a really good decision and and i think

01:26:54   we we really try to make sure we we fit everything within sort of the core of what

01:27:00   makes it a meaningful addition to the app rather than kind of try to shoehorn in more and more

01:27:04   features because we can yeah so yeah so we were talking about specter specter is an app that is

01:27:10   dedicated to long exposures i mean is that a simple way of putting it so like a water fountain

01:27:17   or a fountain or nighttime shot of cars driving fast by you or what are other examples that are

01:27:24   great for a long exposure my favorite example of it is was actually and this was a funny because

01:27:28   it was launched the year before the pandemic and then for a while our primary use case fell away

01:27:33   because ben was in this place in kyoto we have these beautiful orange gates and there's always

01:27:38   tons of tourists that are taking photos but tourists tend to take a photo and move on so

01:27:42   if you just set us exposure time of like five nine seconds they just disappear they just get averaged

01:27:47   out in a long exposure and so you can take pictures of super busy places and make all

01:27:51   the people disappear and normally that would take figuring out exposure logic so it doesn't end up

01:27:56   all blown out and the tripod and whatever now you just grab your iphone take a picture and then at

01:28:01   worst the people got super blurry and it kind of becomes a texture and that was a really really fun

01:28:06   use case for it like you said waterfall what's most fun about this and okay going back to like

01:28:12   emergent gameplay like the zelda games where you figure out a solution to a problem and that's half

01:28:17   the fun like what's amazing is building an app like specter we have users who are doing this

01:28:21   really abstract art with it where they're deliberately shaking things up and it looks

01:28:25   like these phantom so to speak images and so it's really fun to build things like that and see

01:28:31   people find uses for it that we couldn't have predicted yeah yeah i go back i i'm old enough

01:28:38   and enthusiastic enough that i my early years of photography were on film actual film and i it's

01:28:44   long long exposures were possible of course on especially like slr is you could set the exposure

01:28:50   for really long 10 seconds if you want but the need to keep the camera completely stable was so

01:28:59   important that you really if you really were into long exposures you'd get an external shutter

01:29:06   for the camera because even if the camera was on a firmly grounded tripod you're physically hitting

01:29:14   the shutter button on the camera would move the camera enough that like the initial opening second

01:29:20   or fractions of a second would screw it up and the whole for the whole photo would be a bit a bit

01:29:27   blurry you actually needed like a little clicker like uh they were like the clickers on jeopardy

01:29:32   that like a little pen that you hold in your hand and and click so that the camera wouldn't move at

01:29:38   all and i remember learning that even things like well if you're outside and it's windy you're kind

01:29:42   of screwed you're never going to get a good long exposure it's and then you'd see when you like

01:29:48   behind the scenes at national geographic and they show you i know which i always i'm sure you guys

01:29:52   do too it's like i almost love the behind the scenes stuff more than the actual footage and

01:29:57   you'd see that they'd build like a tent around the camera to keep the wind from moving the tripod like

01:30:02   not in the frame but it's like they built like a shed for the photographer to stand in to stay out

01:30:07   of the elements because any little fan meanwhile now you'd specter you're just holding your phone

01:30:12   in front of your face right yeah oh like look at night mode with your iphone where you keep in a

01:30:17   pitch black room and you don't even have like any limber so there's actually a little plus to make

01:30:21   sure you stay aligned because right and it'll just throw away the stuff we can't use it'll just sort

01:30:26   of auto align the images and it was kind of cool that year because i always thought it would be

01:30:30   kind of technical and niche but it it did really well when it launched and that year apple picked

01:30:35   it as the iphone app of the year as kind of a showcase thing and i always thought that was

01:30:40   funny because i kind of cynically assumed apple cares more about revenue with these things or

01:30:45   they could have nominated some easy some absolute money maker app and it just makes millions of

01:30:50   dollars but they just went with a pretty niche little thing and that was really cool to me

01:30:53   that that was like what happened all right let me take a break here and thank our second sponsor for

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01:33:59   let's go back and talk ui design trends oh boy it's funny and again i still i still have so much

01:34:09   affinity for vesper um but when we did vesper it was in i the ios 6 era i was five and i was i

01:34:18   think maybe it was i was five when we got started or i was six and you know everything had depth

01:34:23   and texture and stuff like that and it felt like the winds were blowing in the other direction and

01:34:31   our first version of vesper shipped before i forget what year but i guess it was 2013 when

01:34:37   i was seven came out we shipped like in may before we def like you guys we desperately wanted to ship

01:34:43   before wwdc and it had a look and feel surprisingly ios 7 like and i was seven dropped as a surprise

01:34:51   on everybody i mean that was a well-kept secret within apple it just was sort of we correctly

01:34:58   tell kind of felt a shift in trends flatter simpler sort of lack of depth i but i kind of

01:35:08   feel like with apple when they went with with where they went with iowa 7 was even further

01:35:13   and like the complete almost complete lack of button shapes for buttons anymore like vesper

01:35:19   still had buttons they just didn't have 3d depth there but they were outlined and they highlighted

01:35:23   when you tap them and iowa 7 introduced a sort of you know what we don't really need buttons we

01:35:28   for most things we could just use text and make it a certain color and you just tap the text which

01:35:34   to me made the whole system feel more websitey than appy which in a way that i i never really

01:35:41   liked and i feel like they've come back a little bit on some of those things and where they are

01:35:48   with the overall look i think it looks better than ever and they've gotten some more depth but

01:35:53   at this point i'm i i just feel like we're ready for someone for for apps to start

01:36:00   having like holy shit that looks lickable again right emma is it just me

01:36:05   yeah i think it's really what's really interesting is i don't think i know a single designer that

01:36:12   didn't feel like apple over corrected a little too hard with iowa 7 right and obviously there

01:36:17   was a lot of changes in like leadership structure and direction at that time and i will say this as

01:36:22   a disclaimer that i worked at apple on some of the most egregious cited examples of the pre iowa

01:36:29   seven days there might have might or may not have been some stitch leather with my name on it

01:36:33   involved rich karenthian rich karenthian but there was someone who really liked that back then at

01:36:40   apple and that person is not there anymore and i think what the coolest thing has been to see the

01:36:46   return of it some designers in my opinion some of myopically are looking at it and seeing like all

01:36:51   right i can use my layer effects again let's dust off photoshop but if you look at the way this sort

01:36:56   of i don't like to use the word skeuomorphism because a lot of these things don't look like

01:37:00   right if you look at the definition of skeuomorphic it's it's an object that is looking

01:37:04   like the thing it's trying to depict so a calendar if it looks like a physical paper calendar and be

01:37:08   paper on the digital interface even though it has no reason to be the the new sort of era of

01:37:13   tactile interfaces is like the dynamic island for instance where the the visual flare doesn't come

01:37:20   from being able to add layer effects and having these juicy retina displays that can display all

01:37:24   these gradients and colors it's being able to do motion blur and animation and seeing like the way

01:37:30   that shape can expand is almost liquid right you can see it kind of like sticking together and

01:37:34   popping apart you see this in all of apple's like latest and greatest stuff is that the fluidity of

01:37:39   the gesture-based interaction the iphone 10 having these incredibly supple fluid transformations of

01:37:46   vector shapes progressive gradient blurs these little things that are honestly our design tools

01:37:51   are not at all equipped to do we've had our design tools go more and more in that direction since ios

01:37:55   heaven of being able to make boxes with text on them and none of them do this kind of this is like

01:38:01   code your own stuff game engine stuff and apple increasingly is is showing that their direction

01:38:07   that the way they're looking at it is this evolution of having these beautiful layered

01:38:11   surfaces that are glassy and blurry and fluid and and that's really cool and i think that that's

01:38:17   kind of like the direction that ui is going into and it's it's way more subtle and interactive and

01:38:23   beautiful than we can comprehend right now right like it's it doesn't fit into that old aqua

01:38:30   framework anymore where it's just a bitmap that looks different it's actually the way things

01:38:34   behave to your finger with physics and that yeah it's super super cool yeah well i'll just say

01:38:43   lickable was probably the wrong thing for me to say because lickable applies specifically to

01:38:47   aqua where it looks like candy lozenge i i i just sort of mean like apps that when you just look at

01:38:54   them at first first look you're like whoa what's that right that and i feel like that's been

01:39:01   missing for a while there there's a certain sameness to everything and and to me i also think

01:39:12   a sort of hey it it's like there's a lot of super talented designers like you and and peers of you

01:39:25   and your friends who who know my friend brad ellis who know how to make extraordinarily good little

01:39:33   buttons or icons or something like that and there's this sort of ah who needs them will just

01:39:37   make all these icons just be completely flat if if it's completely flat with no lighting or texture

01:39:44   we don't need them right as opposed to when it felt like everything needed some depth and lighting

01:39:51   and texture if you didn't have a good designer your thing stood out because it looked like shit

01:39:56   right and and if nobody's trying it then yours can be made by untalented designers and it doesn't

01:40:02   really stick out like a sore thumb well it's unfortunate is i feel like there's been this

01:40:07   sort of like wave of fun police coming into the f world where people are just like why is it looking

01:40:12   like this and oh you shouldn't be spending time on that and even with orion we had this to a big

01:40:16   extent where there was some guy who was uh his forces was on twitter or x you want to call it

01:40:23   nowadays he's like well like how does this even meaningfully impact your conversion rates or

01:40:27   whatever nonsense like that it's like it's like the finance boys took over like something that

01:40:32   really was a group of enthusiasts making things for the sake of creating the art like there's art

01:40:37   to making apps just like video games and for some strange reason and i think it has something with

01:40:44   again the design tools as well it's harder to make things that are really overtly fun and it's much

01:40:49   harder for an organization which app organizations are much more serious and big now to justify

01:40:56   or quote unquote take the risk of being visually distinct and fitting that into their quote design

01:41:02   system or whatever it is nowadays to justify that kind of flair and i think every user notices and

01:41:09   appreciates it honestly like there is no end to the people actually i don't know like it doesn't

01:41:15   go unappreciated is what i'm trying to say and and i think we are seeing more and more people

01:41:20   especially on the web interestingly before apps people more using fun effects using more depth and

01:41:26   making things a bit more attractive and i really think we're hopefully going to see that in in apps

01:41:31   as well because i mean if we're any example of it like people really appreciate we get so many

01:41:36   messages from people saying like we we love that there's just fun and cool cool things going on in

01:41:42   here and there's it's it's a huge app store it's it's never been this big i think but there really

01:41:48   are still not very many apps where people go that far and they really get noticed when you put that

01:41:53   kind of love and care into something yeah ben yeah i i think that i get why iowa 7 was a response

01:42:01   like post-modernism it was a response to things had gone too far in one direction and i i

01:42:08   personally went through a period like an interior design where i loved modernism and super clean

01:42:12   lines and everything but then i don't know if it's a sign of my age but in interior design it turns

01:42:18   out there's this really cool aesthetic where if you take uh modern and contrast it with like

01:42:23   pre-war and ornate or nation orientation whatever you'd say like the two styles next to each other

01:42:30   play off each other really really well because when you see this flare it has something to

01:42:36   contrast against and so hopefully now you'll see it used tastefully and will actually be a stronger

01:42:42   look with like a sort of a baseline tabula rasa this is what the os level is and now people are

01:42:48   going to feel more comfortable sort of dipping their toes like with ios as it sort of reeled

01:42:52   itself back but yeah i want to see a baroque app i want to see gargoyles and a ridiculous flare

01:42:59   where it counts well and that brings us to o'ryan o'ryan is your guy's new app sort of a mini app

01:43:07   you guys even said you guys sort of built it in six weeks or no that might be too short but for

01:43:12   your sort of days 45 well six weeks right six times eight six yeah what is o'ryan

01:43:18   i can go for this one uh so we discovered when we were looking into the external camera api with uh

01:43:27   ipad that it kind of sucked as a camera api but it turned out that you could plug in these capture

01:43:34   dongles that you buy off amazon for 15 bucks and you can plug in an hdmi source and suddenly you

01:43:39   can use your ipad as an external monitor and so we're like okay what if we were to kind of like

01:43:44   specter do like a one-off app that does one thing particularly well it wouldn't be an ongoing

01:43:51   business and if you were to do this one thing how would you go over the top and have fun with it and

01:43:57   it was kind of like it it was more for us and having fun and just yeah if it made money cool

01:44:04   if it was an art project that's great and so it's useful if you're if you need to play a console

01:44:12   game on your ipad you don't have a monitor if you have a server in a closet like a mac mini that's

01:44:16   not hooked up to a screen and you just need to quickly log in and fix something you could use it

01:44:21   i have it hooked up to a dongle that does composite input and so i have it hooked up to my super

01:44:26   nintendo and i was able to get some rounds of street fighter 2 off so it's like a portable

01:44:30   monitor and we're able to layer on like crt effects oh and in the case of like nintendo

01:44:35   switch which only does 1080p we were able to do some stuff like upscale to 4k using metal effects

01:44:41   so it's like the old it's it's it's it's an overkill monitor uh for ipad right let you use

01:44:48   your ipad as an ad just as a display all right what's what's the path to get a super nintendo

01:44:53   hooked up to it though because super nintendo doesn't do hdmi out oh no so you buy a little

01:44:58   dongle i forgot whoever was like star tech or one of these companies makes a an s video and analog

01:45:04   input to usb-c all right and then you plug that into the ipad it shows up as a webcam i guess it

01:45:10   was for like if you had one of those little camcorders for home movies right and there's

01:45:14   like all these chinese companies like oh they're all the same chipsets so you can pick any of the

01:45:20   dozen off amazon and they all do the same thing but they're out there you only need one adapter

01:45:24   though i was thinking you might need like s video to hdmi and an hdmi to usb-c yeah i'm kind of

01:45:30   surprised that you don't have some daisy chain of like crazy dongles like sticking out now right

01:45:36   now it's right there s video right to usb-c right because at one point i had to do that with my

01:45:41   apple extended keyboard 2 which is adb out my beloved keyboard and it went i added old i mate

01:45:51   usb-a adapter so it went one adapter was all i needed but then once the machine stopped having

01:46:00   usb-a ports then i needed a usb-a to usb-c dongle and a dongle to a dongle you're starting to stretch

01:46:06   things but it's getting into some yeah absurd territory right but there's a guy over in hong

01:46:11   kong i forget his name jianni something but he goes by the name tinker boy but he makes a he like

01:46:16   3d prints a bunch of custom dongles and he's got a it's a much better adapter than the old i make

01:46:22   one but now it go he's got one and he sent me a prototype that goes right to usb-c and there's

01:46:28   just something in the back of my brain that is so much happier knowing that i've just got one

01:46:32   adapter than an adapter to an adapter but yeah but that's a cool the the the mac mini in a closet

01:46:40   type scenario i mean it's it's not just a toy right it's not just like sure playing your old

01:46:46   super nintendo games is all right now it's a toy it's you're playing video games but that's actually

01:46:50   a cool use case right because you don't want to if 99.8 percent of the time the the mac and the

01:46:57   little mac mini can run headless yeah why even waste money on the cheapest to cheap displays

01:47:04   to keep in there and if you can just walk in just walk around with the ipad you already have and

01:47:09   hook it up with one thing and now and all of a sudden that's super useful right it is actually

01:47:13   useful when i told my son about orion he was so happy he said i've been i've been wanting a wig

01:47:20   in his dorm room to play his switch on a bigger screen i mean is his ipad he has an ipad pro though

01:47:26   so 13 inch display is a lot for him in a and with the limited viewing distance you can get in a

01:47:33   college dorm room he was like oh my god he wants it just for that and you guys built there's so

01:47:38   much fun stuff in there again custom typeface right up to two custom typefaces because why not

01:47:45   but yeah we saw i just thought that it would be really neat to base it off of kind of the 80s

01:47:50   vhs crt tv vibes and they have those pixel it was the dawn of the pixel typeface the dawn of

01:47:59   like digital type so they had these pixel fonts and i work with my really good friend yelmar

01:48:04   here it's my did the type he's an amazing type designer in holland so we just had these late

01:48:08   night sessions with a couple bottles of bourbon and and a couple computers and we're sitting

01:48:14   together sketching up like making pixel fonts and doing all the styling after it so there's actually

01:48:19   a bit of a blue screen on this on-screen display almost vhsc screen if you don't have anything

01:48:24   connected and yeah all the menus we use we use we use the custom type in there we kind of just

01:48:29   went by granted with it we wanted to feel a little physical again so you you open the app for the

01:48:33   first time you get to unbox it there's a little tearaway strip and your cable sasser wrote a little

01:48:38   amazing tune for the retro logo made for it it's a little over the top again but we figured we

01:48:45   might as well it's it's a free app so you can actually check it out like we we don't charge any

01:48:48   money for just using using all the the the core functionality um but we want to just like make it

01:48:55   make it really fun without getting too much in a way of actually using it i would literally say to

01:49:00   the people listening i mean this sincerely that it even if you in the back your head think well

01:49:05   that's a neat idea for an app but i if you're thinking i literally have no place in my life

01:49:11   where i would like to use my ipad as an external display you should still download orion and unbox

01:49:18   it just to do the unboxing and see the little because it it's the sort of things that exemplify

01:49:25   what i'm talking about that i miss right that it really does look like a piece of cardboard strip

01:49:30   that you're peeling off as you open it up and it's that is it i would say that just that unboxing

01:49:39   animation alone exemplifies what i'm talking about it's it has no point no no no well no point other

01:49:47   than to bring joy right then to be fun to look cool and be fun and something that just looks

01:49:53   cool and is fun and is like pops into your head as i mean i guess we've spoiled it for everybody

01:49:59   but i'm using as a reason to get it but if you for all the people who've downloaded it or or in

01:50:03   the future we'll just go to the app store and stumble across it read the description and say

01:50:08   yes this is exactly what i've been saying i want to just plug hdmi into my ipad for for x situation

01:50:15   they get this all of a sudden a part of their brain will light up like what the hell is this

01:50:20   i have to peel off a piece of cardboard to open and it's like oh that's fun right but it's like

01:50:25   all of a sudden there's certain neurons in these people's brains that will get lit up with joy or

01:50:31   at worst i mean what's the worst that could happen is somebody who literally has the doesn't have the

01:50:37   gene to experience fun well then they've wasted one and a half seconds of their life peeling off

01:50:43   a thing they didn't need to otherwise peel off i do like the entertainment fantasy there's someone

01:50:47   out there that they'd actually really pissed off oh i do know they're through this you know there is

01:50:55   um but the other thing that you guys do and i'm guessing hearing from your use case ben and and

01:51:04   of course i think it's true i think you guys would both agree i mean you said it with halide

01:51:07   especially when you're an indie and the smaller it is it has to be true that you you're scratching

01:51:16   your own itch and that you love the thing you're making right like if rich siegel weren't himself

01:51:23   a heavy bb edit user bb edit wouldn't be going right it's the fact that rich siegel himself is

01:51:31   one of the biggest users of bb edit in the world and okay so it makes sense that he's been spent

01:51:38   30 years working on the same app but one of the fun things in orion is that you guys have modes

01:51:45   to simulate crts right and that is it that's got to come from you wanting to hook up your

01:51:52   super nintendo to it right yeah yeah well also i just wanted to learn could you is it possible

01:51:58   to build something that would emulate crts at a retina level on the display how would that look

01:52:04   and then like once i started watching videos about how crts actually worked when i was growing up

01:52:09   like okay well if we're gonna build one crt there are actually three popular types of crts

01:52:14   the trinitron which is like the cadillac of the crts and so once you go down that path why not

01:52:20   choke we'll just include three ones so if anything i don't care if you use the mode i just wanted to

01:52:24   see if i could build it you know but like which is which tends to be a precarious path but yeah so

01:52:31   i've been using it for that and it's been interesting just seeing like the preservation of

01:52:36   old games that are even if they're re-released by the companies they aren't displayed like they were

01:52:42   originally like the original artists who programmed it intended because displays today are razor sharp

01:52:48   and they don't blur the details right and and jesus can even tie back to like photography about like

01:52:53   having everything super sharp and invisible kind of takes away some of the magic of imagery right

01:53:00   right right yeah i know there's everybody out there listening who plays retro games through

01:53:07   emulators knows exactly what i'm talking about but if you're not this issue of hey when we first got

01:53:15   to like lcd led displays that are flat and they're so pixel perfect and sharp even not counting retina

01:53:22   right but it's just they're just so super sharp that when you play these retro games on these

01:53:28   modern screens through an emulator you see perfectly square sharp corner each pixel is

01:53:37   like that and so it's like you're seeing the art in a way that is the clearest as possible of what

01:53:46   it is pixel by pixel but the overall effect is nothing like what it looked like when you were

01:53:51   actually playing back in the day right like yeah like i'll just go back to pac-man pac-man looked

01:53:57   like a yellow circle a perfect circle it did not look like a little pixelate and as everybody has

01:54:05   ever tried to do pixel art knows making like a circle is hard when you've got square pixels

01:54:10   it pac-man just looked like a circle nobody thought that there were any kind of pixels or

01:54:14   jagginess involved there is sort of a it was like anti-aliasing without actually doing any

01:54:22   algorithmic anti-aliasing the actual nature of a crt display it has some of that blurring effect of

01:54:30   anti-aliasing so like if i think it was mega man 3 that did this where they deliberately drew the

01:54:37   graphics in such a way that the individual pixels would hit phosphors so that there's a sequence

01:54:43   with a stars in the background and as your character walks across the stars twinkle in

01:54:47   different colors but if you show it on a monitor display it's like oh they're white but yeah they

01:54:52   would they would hack that there were some and we haven't built it yet but in certain games they do

01:54:57   transparency effects by hacking the interlacing and it was like leaning into the limitations of

01:55:02   the hardware to to accomplish specific visual effects right it's super clever stuff yeah that

01:55:07   was like a half transparent waterfall in some game where it was only that effect the effect falls

01:55:12   apart on a lcd because there is no interlacing whatsoever right so it's a free app people can

01:55:20   download it and use it but you can upgrade right there's there's a pro because i know i did it

01:55:25   instantly because i thought well whatever it unlocks i want it i think it's the 4k upscaling

01:55:29   in the crt effects and we we have a few custom icons coming that we want to bundle in one one

01:55:34   use case been didn't cover that i use it for is a lot of modern cameras that you can use for vlogging

01:55:39   or or yeah video use you can hook it up as a monitor which usually costs a couple hundred bucks

01:55:44   at least so you can have a sort of screen that faces you so you don't have to look at the back

01:55:49   of your camera to see your framing and your exposure that that works pretty nicely too and we

01:55:53   we're going to add a few a few we want to add a few features for that to make that work a little

01:55:57   bit better yeah and that's another use case too where you might not want to even buy even just a

01:56:05   300 stand on a monitor for that purpose if you're not going to use it all the time and if you own

01:56:11   you're like well i'm not going to use it much so i'm going to go spend only a little bit of money

01:56:15   but then you're going to get a shitty display right whereas you've got an ipad you've got

01:56:19   an apple quality display and then you can just use it for that purpose when you want to use it

01:56:25   for that purpose and it's you know as better than any display at that size that you could get from

01:56:30   any company in the world and you can even screen record it right so let's say if you are like on us

01:56:34   location you want to just run a little sample shoot you can literally just screen record

01:56:38   the output and and use that you can take captures of your framing and quickly send it out it's it's

01:56:44   just really neat that you have this whole ipad it's almost like your camera's kind of like running ios

01:56:48   for the output that's funny like a dp i i shared some dms and he works on like actual real real

01:56:54   productions i think actually an apple tv show and he was saying like on set the most reliable

01:56:59   hardware are ipads like as far as like screens and so he's like yeah we're definitely going to give

01:57:04   this a run there's limitations because you start talking about sdi connections and everything

01:57:09   but an ipad as far as a device it's funny we think about it like it's for your grandparents but it's

01:57:14   like no it's a device that just works and if you're on a set that's gonna it's gonna cost us

01:57:18   a million dollars today we can't be futzing around with control alt delete to to get things running

01:57:23   because it's going to cost us money right or worrying that the display isn't capable of really

01:57:28   conveying the color and any meaningfully accurate sense or something like that yeah that's a big one

01:57:33   yeah right yeah right and and it and as opposed to apple who obsesses over the color accuracy of

01:57:42   of every display that leaves the factory well you this has been a great talk i appreciate the time

01:57:47   i don't think i have anything else to cover and unless you guys do all right no all right any

01:57:54   lost guesses for the event that's coming anything else that come to mind all right here's one

01:57:58   everybody wants to know uh how is it going to open i i think it's going to open with tim cook

01:58:05   saying good evening right right good morning good morning good morning good morning but i think he's

01:58:09   i think it has to open with him saying good evening i don't think there's anything magical

01:58:13   about him saying good morning like i've seen people on twitter saying he's still going to say

01:58:17   good morning and maybe because if it's filmed in the daytime or something like that it would make

01:58:23   sense but i'd know if they're going to air it at eight o'clock at night i think i think the whole

01:58:27   thing will be dark right like like the jaws sections of the iphone keynotes right the kyan

01:58:34   drance's sections where she does the non-pro phones are in the daytime i don't know how many

01:58:39   people notice this but ever since it's been kyan and jaws her sections are in the daytime for non-pro

01:58:45   phones and then it always shifts to nighttime for pro because i don't know in apple's mind pro is

01:58:50   dark i guess this whole event's going to be dark i don't know i never noticed that that's that's

01:58:54   a good catch if i had apple's budget i would do an hour and a half long video hosted by the crypt

01:59:01   keeper just like an hour and a half good evening boys and girls today we have an amazing just like

01:59:08   play it straight and i would yeah that's why i don't have their money no my last thought is

01:59:15   i was gonna my last thought is is is i'm super happy with my m1 max if the only thing that could

01:59:21   get me to upgrade if they suddenly came out with an m3 max macbook pro that's completely black like

01:59:28   actually beautiful black metal uh i would instantly want to buy that i would look at my laptop and be

01:59:37   like you terrible obsolete thing i would do that i would do the exact same thing because i have

01:59:44   more money than sense and would instantly try to trade in my perfectly good like i said i never

01:59:53   swap the only thing i'm really concerned about is ram it's got more ram than i need but i would

01:59:57   instantly upgrade just to get true black and it makes the worst thing furious the worst thing they

02:00:02   created was the trade-in program so now i have like oh i guess i have to upgrade now i have like

02:00:08   a thousand dollar credit for every i can buy so many gems in the app store now but like it's so

02:00:14   tempting like yeah i can just trade in my old mac and i get some credit yeah i feel like they haven't

02:00:20   flexed on mac hardware lust in a while right like just i don't even care what it does i just want a

02:00:30   box that looks like that right like the mac studio is not a sexy box right it's right it's not ugly

02:00:37   it is not i don't have any complaints about it but i don't look at a mac studio and think oh i need

02:00:44   that i need that on my desk right if they made a black laptop the way i'm in v i think you are too

02:00:51   i would just be like i don't even care what the specs are i just give it to me take my money

02:00:56   remember when they charged more remember when they charged more when to put the plastic macbooks they

02:01:00   weren't pro level but they had the black one was like 200 more i had it i paid it they should

02:01:07   do that again i would if i worked there and see that i should not work there i should i i have

02:01:13   the right job just telling them what to do not doing it but i would say yes let's charge more

02:01:18   let's charge more for the black version that has no other advantages other than being black because

02:01:23   idiots like me and you will give them the money

02:01:27   that's a very good prediction though i like that uh lux dot camera is your home

02:01:36   and you can go from there to all of the apps we mentioned halide being the big one but specter

02:01:41   which i should have mentioned up front and now the new one orion you guys and again i i always link i

02:01:47   love love love your camera review every year camera system review which people who listen to the show

02:01:53   probably remember it was just a few weeks ago i linked to it and you guys are both on social media

02:01:58   you can people can can look for you thank you for your time i'll also thank our sponsors we had

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02:02:08   coffee fresh coffee delivered right to your home all right thanks guys thanks thank you