The Talk Show

388: ‘What the Actual’, With Christina Warren


00:00:00   Well, we finally got space black Christina.

00:00:02   I, I mean, I'm, I'm both really excited and I'm also very upset for my wallet

00:00:07   because I've made comments on Twitter and Mastodon I was like, if they come out

00:00:11   with another black laptop, I'm going to buy it no matter what.

00:00:15   And now I feel compelled even though my two year old 14 inch in one max with

00:00:21   64 gigs of Ram has an abysmal resale value and no real need to upgrade.

00:00:27   Wait.

00:00:29   Wait, I have the exact same machine.

00:00:31   I have an M one 14 inch MacBook pro that is maxed out at 64 gigs of Ram,

00:00:38   which now sounds terribly piddly.

00:00:41   Right.

00:00:42   And you're saying we get, we we're going to get terrible resale value for it.

00:00:46   Is that what you're saying?

00:00:47   Yes.

00:00:48   Yes.

00:00:48   Yeah.

00:00:49   So, so Apple is offering a whopping $1,300 for trade-in and I'm, I'm guessing

00:00:54   that I can probably maybe max out at 16, 17 and then the 128 gigabyte model.

00:01:00   With tax and Apple care and tax in my state is 10% is six grand.

00:01:05   So congratulations, Apple.

00:01:07   You're probably going to get a ton of money out of me for a fricking color.

00:01:11   You, you, you have my number.

00:01:12   So I never had to leave the Northeast corridor.

00:01:18   I'm not, it is very strange.

00:01:21   I had a meta level here.

00:01:23   I'm not quite sure what the rules are.

00:01:25   There's off the record and I know what that means.

00:01:27   And it's just sort of like a friendly handshake that we're not supposed to

00:01:32   talk about the details of it, but a bunch of media people were invited to New York

00:01:36   this morning.

00:01:37   Yeah.

00:01:38   So I do have literal actual hands-on experience with these devices, which is

00:01:44   important when we get to the fingerprint stuff, but they're like, but we want to

00:01:48   focus on the news, so don't talk about the venue and say, all right, all right.

00:01:51   You're supposed to, I forget, they have like a suggested phrasing.

00:01:54   It's like, I've, I've had early access to something, something, blah, blah, blah.

00:01:59   But was it at the addition?

00:02:02   Uh, no.

00:02:03   Okay.

00:02:04   It was at the usual place, but we're not supposed to talk about, but I will say

00:02:10   this, I came back and I checked with my son who's now a sophomore in college,

00:02:15   has a touch bar M one Mac pro.

00:02:20   And I'm like, would you like a hand me down M one?

00:02:24   No, that this is the thing he's going to get a huge upgrade because he'll be able

00:02:29   to use it with more than one monitor.

00:02:30   He'll have like actual Ram in it.

00:02:32   Like it'll actually perform well.

00:02:34   That's the, that's the interesting thing.

00:02:37   Now at your briefing that we're not supposed to talk about at the usual place

00:02:40   in the lower East side, we're where, yeah, I know that they met with some people

00:02:44   and they're having briefings tomorrow as well, I guess Tuesday, from what I

00:02:48   understand as well.

00:02:49   I'm not beholden to any of these rules so I can talk about it.

00:02:51   Did they confirm that the 13 inch touch bar is dead?

00:02:55   The, the, the complete piece of shit garbage machine that we all hated.

00:02:58   Is that, is that dead now?

00:03:00   Yes, but it was in, in the most awkward way possible, which is to me very funny

00:03:08   because, and I will say this too.

00:03:10   They did not show us the video.

00:03:13   That the broadcast video of the keynote beforehand.

00:03:17   Instead, we got a sort of bespoke in-person keynote, which I'm not complaining

00:03:24   because I got two presentations.

00:03:27   I got an old fashioned live one live keynote slide presentation, and then got

00:03:33   to watch this with everybody else from the comfort of my living room at 8 PM

00:03:36   Eastern five Pacific, but they didn't mention it in the presentation.

00:03:42   They didn't say this, that, that 13 inch touch bar thing is gone.

00:03:46   But I did note when they said the new M three, no adjective, MacBook pro starts

00:03:55   at 15 99, it put, I was like, I think this kills that machine that cursed, that

00:04:02   cursed machine awful machine, but that cursed machine started at 12 99.

00:04:07   And then it, in, in question, when they started taking questions from people,

00:04:11   somebody else in the media asked, and I think they answered poorly.

00:04:17   I'll answer the way they, that I think they should have answered, which is that

00:04:21   machine is no longer for sale as of today.

00:04:23   It was a good machine for these reasons, blah, blah, blah, and people loved it.

00:04:28   But instead they answered by starting by talking about how great a machine that

00:04:34   was and I thought, Oh God, Oh God, it's still here.

00:04:38   Right.

00:04:39   Right.

00:04:39   And it's, it's, it's so dumb because you're right.

00:04:41   They could have said this no longer for sale because you guys like you have a 15

00:04:45   inch MacBook air and 13 inch MacBook air, which are superior in basically every way.

00:04:50   Like for years, we've been talking about why that machine didn't need to exist.

00:04:54   Granted, this is starting out with.

00:04:56   We can talk about the fact that I think it's insulting that, that the base

00:05:00   model still has eight gigs of RAM.

00:05:02   Yes.

00:05:02   Yes.

00:05:03   You're, you're hitting key points that I want to bring up.

00:05:06   That is, I would say the one of the very few, this is a very good news day for Mac fans.

00:05:13   I think it is a super good overall, but as always, there's something we can find to

00:05:18   complain about, I would say base models starting at eight.

00:05:22   I I'll even forgive the 24 inch iMac, although given the way they make Apple

00:05:28   Silicon, I guess if the base M three chip has eight gigabytes, they're going to put

00:05:35   it in some of the laptops.

00:05:36   I kind of feel though that should not be in a machine called MacBook pro.

00:05:40   If it has the word pro in it at in 2023, there's absolutely no reason.

00:05:45   Now, does that mean if they had followed your, your, and my advice.

00:05:51   And they should not sell a MacBook pro with only eight gigabytes of Ram at the

00:05:57   end of 2023, that the starting price would be higher again, now we're spending Tim

00:06:01   Cook's money, but still that, that should not happen.

00:06:05   Yeah.

00:06:05   And look, Tim Cook has plenty of money.

00:06:07   Like, like we can be, we can be honest about that.

00:06:11   And it's also, I mean, we put them in a weird position, but I'm just, yeah,

00:06:15   starting with eight gigabytes, especially $1,600.

00:06:18   That's that feels egregious.

00:06:20   Yeah.

00:06:20   I friend of the show, friend of everybody's friend of the internet,

00:06:24   Jason Snell was, I saw him today.

00:06:26   He was here from California and we had lunch and I said to him as we were

00:06:30   lunching, I was so glad that both he and I spent some finger energy last week

00:06:36   complaining about the incoherence of the iPad lineup overall in the context of

00:06:43   this new Apple pencil, which you and I don't have to talk about it is what it is.

00:06:47   Now there's three pencils.

00:06:48   Yeah.

00:06:49   But now you've got this complicated conspiracy theorist, cork board,

00:06:55   strings of yarn and thumb tacks all over the place to figure out which pencil.

00:07:02   Uh, works with which iPad, but I'm glad we complained about the incoherence of the

00:07:07   iPad lineup last week, because I feel like now we can praise Apple for the, in my

00:07:13   opinion, complete coherence of the Mac book lineup.

00:07:17   So that would be my number one takeaway of the day is now that the M three is

00:07:22   here and the touch bar quote unquote Mac book pro is gone.

00:07:28   It is very coherent.

00:07:30   Nine 99, eight 99 for education.

00:07:33   You, you get the old M one, which is old.

00:07:35   Now it's three years old industrial design from the Intel era Mac book air.

00:07:40   And yes, that is the worst Mac book you can buy, but it's pretty good.

00:07:45   It's sub and everybody knows why it only has the M one and why it has the old

00:07:50   industrial design, it is there to be lower, the lowest price Mac book fair.

00:07:55   Then M two Mac book airs, which the integer two is less than three.

00:08:02   So they're older than the pros.

00:08:05   Right.

00:08:05   And they're, they're very compelling machines.

00:08:08   The 15 inch is only what five months old, four months old from WWDC.

00:08:13   Very nice form factor, great performance, nice screens for consumer laptops.

00:08:20   And they fill these price ranges up to around 1500 and then starting at 1600.

00:08:25   Now there's the M three 14 inch Mac book pro and onward from there.

00:08:31   And despite as everybody knows significant inflation worldwide over the last few

00:08:36   years, the starting point for the ones with the 14 inch and the 16 inch are

00:08:43   still for the ones with the M three pro chip and the only one with that are 16

00:08:49   inch and up or 16 inch size prices stay the same 1999 for 14 inch and 24 99 for

00:08:57   16 inch.

00:08:57   So if anything, when you consider inflation prices have come down.

00:09:01   Yeah.

00:09:02   Which I mean is fair, I think, because look, we can, they, Apple can talk all

00:09:08   they want about how much better these chips are than the past chips.

00:09:11   But the fact of the matter is, is that typically prices do come down regardless

00:09:17   of inflation, right?

00:09:18   Like you get better yields, you're able to do this more.

00:09:21   They're reusing the bulk of the chassis, the keyboard the, the heating pipes.

00:09:26   I mean, the chips are new, but everything else is something that they already have

00:09:29   had in there.

00:09:30   What should we call it?

00:09:31   Not supply chain, their assembly lines.

00:09:33   Right.

00:09:33   So it's not as if like they've amortized the costs of so much of this machine.

00:09:38   So other than the new color, but everything else they've, they've

00:09:41   amortized the cost.

00:09:42   So I, I, I will give them a little bit of kudos for that, but I'm not going to like

00:09:46   go out of my way just because I feel like that's, you know, I'm glad the price didn't

00:09:51   go up.

00:09:51   If the price had gone up, I would be angry, but, but I'm, I'm happy that it didn't.

00:09:56   So there still is a black tax.

00:10:00   Yes.

00:10:01   I love this.

00:10:02   The sort of replacement for the touch bar 13 inch Mac book pro is this 1599, no pro

00:10:10   in the name, regular M three chip Mac book pro.

00:10:14   And it, it does have this, and I think it's a great machine and it's such a better

00:10:19   replacement to sort of fill that halfway between a thousand and $2,000 price range.

00:10:25   And I'm like, as certain as I can be without even off the record, no one from

00:10:30   Apple is ever going to say to me, yes, that's why we kept that damn machine

00:10:34   around.

00:10:34   But nobody ever told me I'm wrong.

00:10:37   It's basically because there's some number of people, right?

00:10:40   Either they are consumers and let's face it.

00:10:42   They're probably men.

00:10:44   I mean, let's face it.

00:10:45   Definitely men.

00:10:46   They are absolutely men.

00:10:47   And, and, or.

00:10:48   I T departments buying for a fleet.

00:10:51   And again, probably men who are like our people or me personally, me, tough guy.

00:10:56   We need a pro.

00:10:57   I need a pro.

00:10:58   I need a machine with pro and they're like, okay, if you really want one with pro and

00:11:02   you don't want to spend $2,000 or up, here you go.

00:11:05   Here's the thing.

00:11:06   And that was it.

00:11:07   Now there's a really, that's a, it's a credible, good, cool machine now, but you

00:11:14   can't get it in space.

00:11:15   Black, silver or space gray, which are, which are the unchanged colors from

00:11:21   previous generations.

00:11:22   If you want space black, then you've got to upgrade to the $2,000 and up models.

00:11:28   Right.

00:11:28   No, what is interesting is that the base model 14 inch only has two Thunderbolt

00:11:33   three ports rather than three, but of course it does still have like the HDMI

00:11:38   and the SDXC, so it is similar.

00:11:41   Most people, I would argue if you're looking at a Mac book air, a 15 inch

00:11:47   Mac book air, I think if you were to price that out to be the $1,600, I think

00:11:51   is probably going to give you more bang for your buck in my opinion, than what

00:11:55   you would get with that base level M3.

00:11:57   In my opinion, but just because you're going to be able to get more Ram in it,

00:12:01   which I think is going to matter more than the chip difference, just, just

00:12:05   candidly, but to your point, I do think that this is going to go after that

00:12:10   segment of people who wanted the pro for whatever reason.

00:12:14   And I think that when we look at like what they do with the line going forward,

00:12:18   I think that this is a really good place for them to have kind of that tiered

00:12:22   system of saying, okay, this is what we have for the Mac book, airs the 13 and

00:12:25   the 15, and then we have these three models for people who, for whatever

00:12:30   reason, want some of those differences.

00:12:32   And so I feel like before, and I think I said this in the last two or three

00:12:36   years of Jason Snell's Apple report card, I'd complained about the Touch Bar

00:12:41   Mac still existing, because it just made no sense to me, it was like one of

00:12:45   those things I was like, you either need to just spend the money and get a 14

00:12:48   inch or you are going to be completely very, very well off with the Mac book

00:12:53   air, especially with the redesigned Mac book airs that came out in 2022.

00:12:58   And of course, then now the new 15 inch, but I feel like at this point, there

00:13:01   is enough of a differentiation where you could make that argument for some

00:13:06   people if they wanted that 14 inch for whatever reason, that I feel like the

00:13:10   line makes sense in a way that that it didn't before and certainly in a way

00:13:14   that the iPad does not.

00:13:16   And so hopefully the iPad, maybe in a year, we'll finally be there with the iPad.

00:13:21   I do think you're right that for most people buying for themselves, your, and

00:13:26   your budget is around 1600.

00:13:29   I think you're probably better off getting an M two Mac book air and

00:13:34   upgrading to 1600 then starting with the baseline MacBook Pro.

00:13:39   But if that's what you want, you're getting it.

00:13:42   You, I, you can't say I would not recommend that machine in the way that

00:13:48   anybody like I'm sure every single person who listens to my podcast has is

00:13:53   the sort of person who's informed enough to know that if somebody they know was

00:13:57   tempted to buy the touch bar MacBook Pro, they would try to talk that person out

00:14:02   of it and say, no, buy something else, buy the Mac, but you, you should get the M

00:14:06   two air.

00:14:07   It is great.

00:14:08   No, it's air, not pro, but seriously, it's awesome.

00:14:11   Yeah, you should get it.

00:14:12   I did not know about the ports.

00:14:14   It's all I'm still figuring out some of these details.

00:14:17   That's kind of interesting.

00:14:18   And it, it it's kind of interesting to me because it says to me, they did some

00:14:22   errors, a fair amount of custom engineering just to make this machine.

00:14:26   Yeah, no, that's a good point.

00:14:28   And I think to me, what it also kind of screams to me is it's going, okay, they

00:14:31   very clearly wanted to still have the differentiation between the $2,000 model

00:14:38   for the pro, which I think is really what they consider the MacBook pro, which is

00:14:42   fine.

00:14:43   And in kind of this kind of like havesy, this, this, this foe, I guess we can call

00:14:49   it this, this bow pro, but, but I mean, cause it still has, it has 200 volt ports,

00:14:54   but it still has the HDMI, which the air doesn't have.

00:14:56   It has the XC, XC, it has the mag safe.

00:14:59   And so it has the great speaker system, which really is impressive.

00:15:04   It is, it really, it has the same display with the same number of nits for both

00:15:09   SDR content and which is up from 500 to 600 nits.

00:15:13   So significant 21.2 X brighter.

00:15:17   Yeah, the same 16, it's the same display, which is great.

00:15:20   Great.

00:15:21   I think that's neat.

00:15:23   I didn't think of it, but that it has the same brightness capabilities as the

00:15:28   studio displays.

00:15:30   So if you're going to run it side by side with the studio display, you're going to

00:15:34   get same levels of brightness on both of them.

00:15:37   That's great.

00:15:39   I, and I will say that before I forget, before we move on, I got to talk about

00:15:44   the fingerprint thing.

00:15:44   Yes.

00:15:45   Yes. I want to hear your impressions on this because this is very important.

00:15:48   I think this is going to make or break it for the, for the color.

00:15:51   I think it's no, no bullshit.

00:15:53   I think they've invented some kind of, I think when they say that they've got some

00:15:57   blah, blah, blah industry first coding.

00:16:01   Yes, I think so.

00:16:03   Because when I was there, it was, it was not a particularly warm day, but it was

00:16:08   like humid in New York and I have sort of vaguely sweaty hands, not enough.

00:16:14   That would be great.

00:16:14   It's ever grew.

00:16:15   I think, I hope never gross to shake my hand, but you know, I tend to just moist

00:16:21   hands.

00:16:21   I, I was there touching it, trying to put fingerprints on it and couldn't do it.

00:16:28   I there's something I think I'm pretty in a way that I know would have left a

00:16:32   fingerprint on the midnight M two Mac book air.

00:16:36   And then I closed the lid and put my index finger on the glossy Apple logo and it

00:16:41   immediately left a crystal clear fingerprint.

00:16:44   And of course, like anytime you're in Apple's presence for a media event, there's

00:16:49   people watching.

00:16:50   And as soon as I did it, somebody was there to say, there's no coding on the

00:16:54   glossy Apple logo because we want it to look polished.

00:16:57   So you will be able to leave fingerprints on the Apple logo if you want.

00:17:02   But I do think that they are, they really do have something going on with the

00:17:08   anti-fingerprint coding.

00:17:09   It was funny.

00:17:11   I don't think I'm supposed to say this, but it's a podcast, not an article.

00:17:14   So screw it.

00:17:14   I'll say it.

00:17:15   Somebody else in my media group asked, have you heard complaints from people with the

00:17:20   midnight M two Mac book era about fingerprints?

00:17:24   And the answer was, we're very happy with the new coding on the space M three Mac

00:17:33   book pros.

00:17:34   That's a great answer that, and that tells you if you've ever, you know this, you

00:17:39   know it, but it is that if you're ever curious what it's like talking to people in

00:17:43   Apple product marketing, that question and answer was absolutely positively

00:17:49   exemplary as this is how they answer questions they don't want to answer.

00:17:52   Yes.

00:17:53   And that is also like a great answer because as you said, that is the perfect

00:17:57   Apple product marketing answer.

00:17:58   And it is also affirmatively saying, yes, we have definitely been hearing

00:18:02   complaints.

00:18:02   No, we will not comment on it, but we are very happy with this new one, which great

00:18:07   answer.

00:18:07   Like I, so that's, that's really good to know my, probably my favorite laptop ever

00:18:14   up until the current 14 inch laptops and the 16 is too, but I really love the 14

00:18:19   inch form factor was that original Intel black Mac book.

00:18:23   I, for whatever reason, I love, love, love that laptop.

00:18:28   And so I'm very happy that we have, like, it feels like an adult version of that,

00:18:34   like years later.

00:18:35   And, and so like, I, I still have my, my, my 2007 black book that I named Simon

00:18:40   because it was inadvertently paid for by Simon Cowell.

00:18:43   So, and, and he wore a black t-shirt, so it, the whole thing fit, but I loved that

00:18:48   laptop and I'm very glad that we have.

00:18:50   I don't, I don't think I can let that slide without asking for a follow up

00:18:54   question.

00:18:55   Yeah.

00:18:55   So I was in college and I want to, because of being a blog commenter of all things, I

00:19:02   would comment on the then music editor of USA today's music blog.

00:19:06   And he also had an American idol blog, and that was like my secret shame slash

00:19:09   guilty pleasure.

00:19:10   And I would comment on both of those blogs and he really liked my remarks.

00:19:14   And so they asked me to contribute to the print and the online section of the paper

00:19:19   about American idol.

00:19:20   It was me and like three people that actually knew what they were talking about

00:19:23   giving advice to the contestants each week.

00:19:25   They paid me $1,500 and I used that to buy that black Mac book.

00:19:31   Yeah.

00:19:31   So unlike that one, which I think as if I recall correctly, you got nothing except

00:19:37   the better color for $200.

00:19:39   It was that, and it was, it was a $50 difference if you got the right amount of

00:19:44   hard disk size.

00:19:46   So I think that the base or, so it was like the, it was the faster processor and it

00:19:51   had 160 gigabyte hard drive, whereas the white one was 120 gigabytes.

00:19:56   But if you custom ordered the white one and like you gave it the faster processor

00:20:00   and gave it the bigger hard drive, it was a $50 black tax, which, you know,

00:20:05   like it, which is where we're back.

00:20:08   And, and it was for me, I remember like convincing my mom because she had to help

00:20:11   me with a little bit of it.

00:20:13   And, and I was like, no, I have to have the black one.

00:20:15   Yeah.

00:20:16   I was like, this is very important to me.

00:20:17   I have to have the black Mac book.

00:20:18   So finally on that, I have to admit I I'm amused by the fact, I guess if my budget

00:20:25   were $1,600, I'd be.

00:20:27   Well, actually, I think I agree with you.

00:20:29   If my budget capped at 1600, I would just get the midnight M2 MacBook Air.

00:20:35   I'm very happy about this color.

00:20:38   I'm very unhappy about the fact that I'm so upset.

00:20:42   I've just spent, I mean, let me look at the time here.

00:20:45   I first saw it, I guess 11 hours ago.

00:20:50   So I've spent 11 hours thinking, don't, I don't need this.

00:20:52   I don't need this.

00:20:53   I don't need this.

00:20:54   And I really, I'm going to have to buy it.

00:20:56   You have to buy it, but also it's going to be great for your son because he

00:20:59   really does need, he really doesn't need an upgraded machine, right?

00:21:01   Like he's in his sophomore year of college.

00:21:03   He needs this because it's not as if everything he does isn't web based.

00:21:07   No, not at all.

00:21:09   No, he doesn't need a glorified Chromebook.

00:21:11   He needs a really powerful machine with 32 cores and 64 gigs of RAM.

00:21:15   I can't, I feel bad too.

00:21:17   Cause when they talk about the reasons for each step up in the line, why you

00:21:22   might need this and they're like, this would be great for video pros.

00:21:25   And this is great for people who work in 3d and this is great for and then you get

00:21:28   to say AI and blah, blah, blah.

00:21:30   And it's like, what about web browser tab hoarders?

00:21:33   Like me.

00:21:35   Exactly.

00:21:35   Same.

00:21:36   I mean, I do, I do some video work and I do do a certain amount of kind of AI stuff.

00:21:41   Unfortunately.

00:21:42   I mean the AI thing, that's an interesting conversation because most of the models

00:21:47   are still primarily made for Nvidia GPUs and they work better that way.

00:21:52   So it's one of those weird things where like I have my gaming PC that I built a

00:21:55   few years ago that like that actually works considerably better for running any

00:21:59   of the stable diffusion or any of the other kind of open source AI models than

00:22:05   my Mac book.

00:22:05   But I will say Apple, they have their own forks of some of those things they've

00:22:09   been optimizing for those things.

00:22:12   And with any luck, I'm sure that Apple has its own LLM with any luck they will

00:22:18   in the next year or so have something that people can, can run themselves too.

00:22:23   And this is by all accounts, I mean, it's not going to be as good as a standalone

00:22:27   machine with a discrete GPU, but the graphs looks good.

00:22:31   I don't know.

00:22:32   I mean, you will have to wait for the actual full reviews, but the graphs

00:22:35   certainly looked good.

00:22:36   And so I'm not, I'm, I'm not mad at it, but I'm also going to be completely

00:22:40   candid.

00:22:40   Like my whole thing is I'm the tab hoarder web browser person.

00:22:44   And I'm like, no, but it's black and it looks really good.

00:22:47   And I want it.

00:22:48   I really have to say, I have to admit this was.

00:22:51   It, it was true for me before I got this one.

00:22:55   It was, it's been true for me throughout the Apple Silicon era.

00:22:58   Once we got to Apple Silicon for what I do with a Mac

00:23:03   performance wise, I can't notice a difference with anything.

00:23:07   Really.

00:23:08   Ram matters to me.

00:23:10   And the Ram is mostly about my, the fact that I love to keep all my apps open at

00:23:14   once.

00:23:14   And the one that really takes up all the Ram is Safari because I have, and I'm not

00:23:19   exaggerating, usually hundreds of tabs open across two dozen windows until I once a

00:23:25   month do like a, okay, bookmark anything, work bookmarking and start all over.

00:23:30   And then by the end of the next month, I'm back up to 400 and some open tabs.

00:23:33   But you know, that's the way I like to work.

00:23:35   I do.

00:23:36   And I love having them all open.

00:23:37   I need the Ram for it.

00:23:39   But at this point now I'm worried because the other thing about my M one MacBook pro

00:23:45   with 64 gigs of Ram exactly like yours is I check every once in a while and I never

00:23:51   have almost ever, I think in the, I don't know how long I've been using this machine.

00:23:55   Oh, well over a year, well over a year at this point, I think I've only noticed a swap

00:24:00   virtual memory one time ever, you know, that I've gone past.

00:24:04   So I can't really justify 128 gigabytes of Ram.

00:24:09   But yeah.

00:24:10   But if you're going to buy it, you have to like, to me, I'm going to like, I'm in a

00:24:15   similar situation where I'm like, okay, I don't actually, cause I have my, my work

00:24:19   machine has only 32 gigs of Ram.

00:24:22   And that is only because those were the only ones that we could get.

00:24:25   Like they were so supply constrained that I could only get like a 16 inch M one pro

00:24:30   with 32 gigs of Ram.

00:24:31   And I was lucky to get that when I was able to get it because some people had to wait

00:24:35   like months to get laptops and had to like make do with MacBook Airs, like animals.

00:24:40   And even on that machine, which I do a lot of stuff on, like I

00:24:45   very rarely run into any sort of swap at all.

00:24:48   And I have to be honest with myself.

00:24:50   I'm like, I really don't notice any difference between the performance between the two at

00:24:53   all.

00:24:53   But if I'm going to spend the money, like I'm, I'm, I'm a Ram whore

00:24:59   and I'm, you can call me a size queen, whatever, but like, I'm going to need the

00:25:03   128 gigs of Ram.

00:25:04   Like that's what I'm going to need on that machine, whether I'm going to use it or not.

00:25:07   Well, and the other reason I feel like you and I can both justify it is if we buy now,

00:25:12   I think that I think it was like 18 months from M one to M two and

00:25:18   it was like 16 months from the beginning of M two now to M three, but it's roughly a

00:25:23   year and a half.

00:25:24   Let's say they keep it going.

00:25:25   It's going to be close to a year and a half before M four is even right

00:25:29   bird by now.

00:25:31   And I would say within a year, most websites will be coded worse, take up

00:25:36   more memory.

00:25:38   No, no, you're right.

00:25:40   And, and with any luck, I mean, I don't know what the architecture looks like yet.

00:25:44   I'm hoping that the virtual that will finally get nested virtualization support,

00:25:48   because if that happens, then that would make it easier for things like Docker and

00:25:52   other containerized tools, which is one of the reasons I still have an Intel.

00:25:56   Right.

00:25:57   iMac is for a lot of the Docker stuff I have to do is just runs better on Intel or

00:26:01   I use a cloud machine and I would love to not have to do that.

00:26:05   And in that case, honestly, like putting aside the AI of it all, like that's where

00:26:10   area where I could, if I had can have a bunch of VMs running, shoot, like I can, I

00:26:15   can go through 128 gigs of Ram like quick and, and be very happy to.

00:26:20   So, so I think you're right.

00:26:22   A, the websites will be coded worse, so we'll have that going for us, but B for

00:26:27   some of the nerdier pursuits that we will usually take on, there will be, I think to

00:26:32   your point, like this is one of those things where I was really glad that I bought the

00:26:35   M1 basically like the max, like as soon as it was released.

00:26:39   And even though I'm mad at my, my resale value, I'm also not that mad.

00:26:44   Cause it's, this is, this is like a luxury that I can talk about replacing a laptop.

00:26:50   I don't need to replace because it's been a great laptop and I'm like, you know what?

00:26:54   I'm not at all mad if I buy and go all in on like the highest end one again.

00:27:00   And, and if it's only two more years, then I can sell still like, be like, well, this

00:27:04   was a really great laptop for two years.

00:27:06   Yeah.

00:27:06   Before we leave the point, I do think though, it exemplifies the fact that you can now buy

00:27:11   a Mac book pro that goes up to 128 gigabytes of Ram.

00:27:16   Insane.

00:27:16   Is insane, but it really is a frustrating contrast to the fact that the base models

00:27:25   only have eight.

00:27:25   Yes.

00:27:26   Right.

00:27:26   No, I agree.

00:27:27   Yeah.

00:27:28   I mean, honestly, like the more, the more I think about that, I'm bothered by that,

00:27:31   but that's just, that's such a cheap move because if anything, I'm thinking it costs

00:27:35   them since like, like since like, like tens of cents for a difference for them to have

00:27:40   the 16 gig diode versus eight, they're, they're integrating the whole thing.

00:27:44   I'm like, if anything, I'm like, Is this leftover stuff?

00:27:47   Like what, how are you inviting eight gigabyte shifts with any of the M three max

00:27:52   configs, which I think start, I haven't written it starts at 18 or the post

00:27:57   starts at 18.

00:27:58   It starts at 18 and the Mac starts at 36.

00:28:01   All right.

00:28:02   So forget not the 36, but once you get to like 48, you could have eight gigs of Ram

00:28:06   go bad and you might not notice.

00:28:08   Right.

00:28:09   That's true.

00:28:10   That's a very good point.

00:28:11   It is an incredible amount of Ram for a laptop and Intel.

00:28:16   The Intel machines never even came close to it.

00:28:18   What was the, I think the most 64.

00:28:21   Was it, you could get an Intel Mac book with the last four for the last gen.

00:28:26   I nine 16 inches.

00:28:27   Yes.

00:28:28   And it was only those.

00:28:30   And of course those machines ran hot and it was not a great ship and they were,

00:28:35   they were struggling.

00:28:35   But yeah, that final model you could do 64.

00:28:38   I remember because I looked at potentially getting one of those and I'm so glad I

00:28:42   didn't, but yeah, I mean at this point, even PC laptops, even some of the higher

00:28:47   end one 64 is usually as high as you can go.

00:28:49   So having 128 and a laptop that it runs the same speed plugged in or, or not,

00:28:55   that's a flex and that's a real flex when you're talking about having like this

00:29:00   much power in these machines.

00:29:01   And when we look at it back that we're basically just three years into this

00:29:04   transition, like that's really incredible.

00:29:06   Yeah.

00:29:07   And on the on the PC side, and I'm no expert on PC hardware, but I follow along

00:29:11   enough.

00:29:12   I mean, it really is on the laptop side, almost like two modes, right?

00:29:16   There's plugged in mode where you've kind of got what, what laptops started as 30

00:29:23   years ago, desktop PCs that somehow you could pick up and take away from the desk

00:29:29   without restarting, but definitely run the right way only when they're plugged in.

00:29:35   And when they're not plugged in switch to almost an entirely different mode of

00:29:40   performance, you know, brightness, everything kind of drops down, certainly

00:29:45   in terms of graphics performance and stuff like that.

00:29:48   Not nothing, you know, stays the same as when it's plugged in and you don't get,

00:29:52   and even so you don't get good battery life.

00:29:54   No, some of the Ryzen machines do better than some of the Intel ones.

00:29:58   And but if you're talking about anything that has any sort of GPU associated with

00:30:03   it at all, no, the battery life is abysmal.

00:30:05   And so, and certainly the integrated GPUs are not as good as the Apple GPUs.

00:30:13   The Apple GPUs are not as good as the discrete graphics cards.

00:30:16   And they're not as good as the laptops that have 3090s or 4090s or whatever are

00:30:21   in them.

00:30:21   They're not, but the integrated ones from Intel or AMD or whoever are definitely

00:30:27   better on the Mac.

00:30:28   And that's a really interesting place to be because I, you know, don't think that a

00:30:33   lot of us would have thought that, well, that certainly wasn't the case even four

00:30:36   years ago.

00:30:37   And I think even three years ago, a lot of us, myself most definitely were a little

00:30:41   bit cautious, but a little bit suspect, like, okay, is this really going to be able

00:30:44   to compete with the best PC laptops?

00:30:47   Like putting the battery life aside performance wise, will this be able to

00:30:49   compete? And I think the answer is to your point, unless you have one that is

00:30:52   literally designed just to be plugged in and is essentially a desktop that happens

00:30:57   to have a fixed screen.

00:30:59   Yeah, there it's, it must be very specific needs, like you want to play games or

00:31:04   you're wanting to do certain AI workloads.

00:31:06   I can't think of any reason why anybody would not buy a Mac laptop right now.

00:31:11   Yeah, definitely.

00:31:12   All right, let's take a break.

00:31:13   I'm gonna thank our first sponsor and it is a brand new sponsor for the show.

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00:32:05   And it was exactly what I wanted it to be.

00:32:08   They call it half popped popcorn.

00:32:10   I love popcorn.

00:32:12   I also love corn nuts, which is sort of like roasted corn kernels.

00:32:16   Half popped popcorn is like exactly halfway between corn nuts and popcorn.

00:32:23   And it is if I always as a kid always loved, I don't like eating the unpopped

00:32:30   kernels, but I like the half popped ones when you make popcorn.

00:32:34   But there's only ever like three of them when you make popcorn.

00:32:37   This is like a whole bag of just half popped popcorn.

00:32:41   And I absolutely love it.

00:32:43   If this appeals to you, if you and I'm telling you, buy the half popped popcorn

00:32:47   and pick some other stuff.

00:32:49   But I'm telling you, it was exactly what I wanted.

00:32:52   I love it.

00:32:52   I've already eaten almost all of it that they sent me.

00:32:55   They've got all sorts of other stuff.

00:32:57   I got stuff.

00:32:58   I got like these little sort of stuff.

00:33:00   I don't know.

00:33:00   I guess you could send it if you have kids who pack a lunch, it's like little

00:33:04   individual bags, but I love them.

00:33:06   They're like little single serving bags of trail mix.

00:33:09   They've got these things they call peanut butter and jelly, but

00:33:12   it's really like a peanut butter and raisin mix.

00:33:15   Stuff like that.

00:33:17   They've got these honey roasted sesame sticks, which I also am sort of addicted

00:33:23   to already.

00:33:24   Really, really good.

00:33:25   The snacky stuff is right up my alley.

00:33:27   It's stuff that I just sit there and eat all night while I'm watching TV on the

00:33:30   couch, but they've got all sorts of other stuff.

00:33:33   And this sort at a company called nuts.com, they've got all the standard stuff that

00:33:37   you would think that they would have like cashews and almonds and do you want it

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00:33:44   Do you want it unsalted?

00:33:45   Do you just want it raw?

00:33:46   I don't know.

00:33:47   I don't know what kind of animal eats raw almonds, but some people do.

00:33:51   I like them salty and roasted, but they got them all.

00:33:53   Peanut, pecan, brittle, butter, toffee, pecans, all of this stuff.

00:33:58   I mean, just like literally hundreds of products.

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00:35:19   All right, before I forget, Christina, I got another complaint.

00:35:23   I want to knock off the complaints first because it's overall very good news day.

00:35:26   Definitely.

00:35:27   I got, I have another complaint and I think it might be the single most surprising news of the day.

00:35:33   And I mean this sincerely.

00:35:34   It is a, it's a small thing.

00:35:36   It's not big.

00:35:37   It's not a deal stopper, but I think it is the thing that is the most, what the hell?

00:35:42   And that is the fact that the keyboard, mouse and trackpad with the iMac are still, they're

00:35:50   still lightning.

00:35:51   Yes.

00:35:51   But what, what the actual, like, tell me you don't care about the 24 inch iMac without telling

00:35:56   me you don't care about the 24 inch iMac.

00:35:58   What?

00:35:58   I don't get it.

00:35:59   And this has nothing to do with any kind of compliance with EU regulations.

00:36:02   I don't think I, and I, I've been writing about the fact that that, that those regulations

00:36:07   don't kick in until the end of next year.

00:36:08   So Apple did not have to move the iPhone to USB-C this year.

00:36:13   They could have waited until next year.

00:36:15   I think next year they kind of did have a mandate that they kind of had to do it next

00:36:19   year.

00:36:19   They didn't have to, but I just think it's sort of, okay, well, there's that.

00:36:24   And the fact that it just is nice having everything USB-C and then you can just have, like with

00:36:29   my studio display, I can have one USB-C cable coming out.

00:36:33   That's just there to charge products, you know, like, oh, that's how I have it now.

00:36:38   Yeah.

00:36:38   Right.

00:36:38   It was very nice.

00:36:39   One of the cables connects to the Mac and I've got one for my keyboard and, but then

00:36:45   just one dedicated cable that just sits there and I can put my AirPods case in now with

00:36:49   the new AirPods Pro because they upgraded that to USB-C.

00:36:53   What the actual.

00:36:55   No, I agree.

00:36:56   It's ridiculous.

00:36:57   And it's funny you say that because I'm like literally grabbing from my studio display

00:37:01   my lightning cable to plug in my Magic Trackpad because I just realized that like the battery

00:37:06   on that was getting low.

00:37:07   But I do, I have like two things coming from that, like one, you know, for USB-C and one

00:37:11   with lightning coming off of it.

00:37:13   Yeah, this makes no sense.

00:37:16   Like it would be such an easy to me kind of like retooling thing to do.

00:37:22   It would also make sense because they can still sell those accessories separately and

00:37:25   it would be a good thing for anybody who's buying them to use with a Mac Studio or a

00:37:30   Mac Mini or even a MacBook Pro because, hey, I can just use a straight USB cable.

00:37:36   I don't have to worry about having the USB-C to lightning cable in a bag, right?

00:37:41   Because that's increasingly going to become less common.

00:37:44   Like I'm annoyed that they haven't updated the AirPods Max because that's like my last

00:37:50   real piece of like day-to-day gear that uses lightning.

00:37:55   I found an excuse to buy the new AirPod Pros, second gens with USB-C.

00:38:02   My rationalization there because I'd lost a pair like six weeks before and so I had to

00:38:06   buy another pair and I was like, man, this is unfortunate that I literally just bought

00:38:10   another pair.

00:38:11   And then I realized I was in Washington, D.C. with a friend of mine and I realized, oh,

00:38:15   Aaron doesn't have a pair of AirPods.

00:38:17   So Aaron needs a pair of AirPods, so I'm going to give these to her and then that's my excuse

00:38:21   to buy the ones with USB-C.

00:38:23   But like it's annoying to me that they just make the move because it's not like they can't

00:38:29   use those accessories in future products.

00:38:31   Eventually, they have to change eventually.

00:38:34   Right.

00:38:34   Yeah.

00:38:34   So why not now?

00:38:36   It just seems very strange and with the iPhone moving from lightning to USB-C is the flagship

00:38:42   lightning to USB-C transition, right?

00:38:46   Lightning was literally invented for the iPhone.

00:38:49   Absolutely.

00:38:50   So that's the big one.

00:38:51   And then doing it alongside the AirPods Pro 2 with USB-C, right?

00:38:58   You have to because there's also the AirPods Pro 2 with lightning.

00:39:02   But like I said, it's like version 2.5 or 2.1 or something.

00:39:06   Exactly.

00:39:07   Because they also, those AirPods Pro also uniquely have the upcoming ability to do lossless

00:39:15   audio quality with the Vision Pro.

00:39:20   Yeah.

00:39:20   Which again, it's annoying if you've got the lightning ones.

00:39:24   But again, I'm telling you, I really do not believe.

00:39:27   I think there's like one tenth of one percent of human beings who could hear the difference

00:39:32   between high quality.

00:39:33   Oh, yeah.

00:39:34   And compressed audio and lossless audio.

00:39:39   So it's not, but it is mildly annoying, right?

00:39:42   In the same way that I just have to have space black for my laptop.

00:39:46   It's like I can kind of, I get it.

00:39:48   You kind of want, if you spent 250 bucks on your wireless AirPods Pro, you kind of want

00:39:53   the best ones.

00:39:55   And it's like, yeah, it's kind of annoying.

00:39:56   But they moved those.

00:39:57   I can't believe that this is not the debut of the Magic Keyboard, Magic Trackpad, Magic

00:40:03   Mouse with USB-C.

00:40:07   I just jaw dropped.

00:40:09   And it was so funny me getting this morning briefing today and getting the news under

00:40:17   NDA eight hours ahead of the video coming out.

00:40:20   And then being on the train coming back to Philly from New York and browsing Mastodon

00:40:27   and seeing people's predictions and everybody's prediction included new peripherals with USB-C.

00:40:33   Because it just makes sense.

00:40:34   You're thinking, okay, that's what they're going to do.

00:40:36   And it's annoying because presumably there will hopefully, hopefully one day be a larger

00:40:42   screened iMac that will actually have a powerful processor and a decent amount of RAM.

00:40:48   And that will of course have USB-C accessories.

00:40:52   So it just, I don't know.

00:40:54   To me, just like I said, it makes me feel like they just really do not care about the

00:40:56   24 inch iMac at all.

00:40:58   Like this is a spec bump.

00:40:59   This is not a big seller.

00:41:01   I don't think they push a lot of units.

00:41:04   This is just one of those things that they have to say, we still sell an iMac.

00:41:07   And it is the only Mac that skipped the M2 generation.

00:41:12   Right.

00:41:12   Even the Mac mini, which I say even not to disparage it, but because...

00:41:17   They ignored that for forever.

00:41:20   Right.

00:41:20   For a while it was ignored.

00:41:22   Right.

00:41:23   And then it was, they kind of came back and it was one of those, it wasn't quite as big

00:41:28   as the Mac Pro, mea culpa, but they kind of did like a, hey, we took, you know, as close

00:41:34   as Apple's ever going to come to saying, we kind of took our eye off the Mac mini for

00:41:37   a while, but we found out that lots of pros use this for really pro scenarios.

00:41:43   I remember hearing about like people who do the audio for concerts who love the Mac mini

00:41:48   because it's small and because they, you know, they need to tear down the whole thing

00:41:54   every night because it's a concert tour and they're going different places.

00:41:58   And so, you know, smaller is better, but they don't want a laptop.

00:42:02   They want something that they're going to plug in.

00:42:04   It's, you know, pro audio gear.

00:42:06   They say, you know, the iMac is, you know, they, and I believe it, what else would be

00:42:11   the best selling all-in-one in the world.

00:42:13   But it's so it's like on the one hand, they're bragging.

00:42:17   It's the best selling all-in-one.

00:42:19   They're still selling it.

00:42:20   The iMac is obviously near and dear to Apple's heart because, you know, we just sell them,

00:42:24   right?

00:42:25   We just celebrated the 25th anniversary of the original iMac.

00:42:28   It harks back to the original Mac from 1984, which was an all-in-one.

00:42:34   So some, it's obviously worth still making, but it was also not worth having an M2 generation.

00:42:43   These, they are, they're the identical colors.

00:42:46   Everybody's happy because it is the most colorful product left in Apple's entire lineup of all

00:42:53   products.

00:42:53   So thank God they didn't bleed the color out of them.

00:42:56   Yeah, that's true.

00:42:58   We'd be very upset if that happened.

00:42:59   And I'm glad that they did go ahead and get this more juiced and that these are M3s.

00:43:04   Although I will say it is kind of a little bit annoying that it is just the base level

00:43:07   M3 that they don't have an option even for, I'm not, I wouldn't expect a Max, but you

00:43:11   know, but the Pro would be nice.

00:43:14   Like again, the Mac mini, which is at this point a great machine.

00:43:18   And I think that a lot of people, you can get an M2 Pro or a regular M2.

00:43:22   Look, I still think that for a lot of people, like you would, it's similar to the MacBook

00:43:27   Air, like depending on what you need, you'd probably be better off getting a well-specced

00:43:30   M2 Pro Mac mini than getting a Mac Studio.

00:43:33   If that's what you're after in terms of that form factor, right?

00:43:36   And you're absolutely better off getting a Mac Studio Ultra than getting a Mac Pro.

00:43:41   Like that's not even a conversation.

00:43:44   So yeah, it's frustrating.

00:43:45   I know they care about the iMac, but I'm really, really hoping, because I love the iMac.

00:43:51   I will always have a special place in my heart for the iMac.

00:43:53   I really want like the 32 inch 6K iMac at some point that is like a proper powerful

00:44:01   machine.

00:44:02   Like maybe it doesn't have a huge market, but I would definitely buy one.

00:44:05   I do think, and this is something that just came in while we were recording, a friend

00:44:10   texted me who's trying to configure this for somebody.

00:44:13   No, see, this is not true.

00:44:14   Somebody texted me, this is not true.

00:44:16   It would have been shocking.

00:44:18   So I'm glad I double checked and didn't just take their word.

00:44:20   You can customize the iMac.

00:44:22   The base models are eight, but you can get 16 or 24 gigabytes.

00:44:27   Yes, yes.

00:44:28   You can go all the way up to 24 gigs.

00:44:29   Yeah, but the only thing is that it's not a pro or a max because that's still the maximum

00:44:34   amount of RAM.

00:44:35   Like for that M3, it is basically the same as like what it was for the base level, like

00:44:39   M1 and M2.

00:44:40   So yes, you can go up to 24 gigs of RAM, which is nice.

00:44:44   And you can go up to a, I'm looking at it now, a two terabyte SSD.

00:44:48   And if you do those, both of those things, then you're looking at a $2,700 computer,

00:44:54   which at that point, I don't know.

00:44:57   I think you're better off maybe again, looking at this, which I think is what they want,

00:45:01   getting a studio display and a Mac Mini.

00:45:05   But I don't know.

00:45:07   Well, and the one thing they reiterated in person and then in the broadcast, the half

00:45:13   hour broadcast tonight, I think they mentioned it.

00:45:15   They only gave the iMac a couple of minutes.

00:45:18   I think like three minutes.

00:45:20   Yeah.

00:45:20   Yeah.

00:45:21   In those three minutes, I think they mentioned at least three times that 24 inches is the

00:45:28   perfect size, both for people coming from a 21 inch Intel iMac, which is true because

00:45:36   this is definitely bigger and better, but also for people coming from a 27 inch iMac.

00:45:43   And that, that, that makes no sense.

00:45:47   That's a lie.

00:45:48   That's a lie.

00:45:49   I'm talking to you from a 27 inch iMac right now where I have a 27 inch studio display

00:45:53   right next to it.

00:45:55   No.

00:45:55   If you told me, Oh yeah, you can lose 20% of your screen real estate and a chunk of

00:46:02   your resolution.

00:46:03   No.

00:46:03   Everybody knows, everybody who's ever bought a computer knows that, okay, once you're talking

00:46:08   about diagonals, three inches is a big difference.

00:46:11   It is.

00:46:12   Yeah.

00:46:12   Like I said, I said 20%, it might be more than that, but it's the fact that it's four

00:46:17   and a half K and not five K that says it all right there.

00:46:19   If you're, if your current iMac, Intel iMac is so old that it's a 27 inch, not retina

00:46:29   iMac.

00:46:30   Okay.

00:46:31   Okay.

00:46:31   Yes.

00:46:31   This display is a, is an upgrade even though it's smaller.

00:46:34   Right.

00:46:35   If you had a 27 inch retina iMac, 24 inch, I don't care about the brightness or nits

00:46:40   or anything.

00:46:41   That's a downgrade.

00:46:43   It's a downgrade.

00:46:44   Stop telling me that this is a better deal.

00:46:46   But I do feel that putting on my translator hat from Cupertino Ease to English is the

00:46:53   point of their repeated insistence that this is a great display, no matter which old iMac

00:47:00   you're upgrading from.

00:47:00   The translation is we are not going to make a big iMac.

00:47:05   Yeah.

00:47:06   I mean.

00:47:06   So that's the translation.

00:47:08   That's probably true.

00:47:09   That's, that's how I interpret it.

00:47:11   I interpret it as meaning if you want an all-in-one iMac, I hope you like 24 inches because that's

00:47:18   all we're going to make.

00:47:19   And if you want a bigger display, we'll be happy to sell you a Mac mini or Mac studio

00:47:26   if you need the performance and a studio display.

00:47:29   And my personal opinion as a nerd who loves to offer my opinion solicited or unsolicited

00:47:37   is a better way to spend your money because these displays last a long time.

00:47:43   That's true.

00:47:43   There's not, we've already done the move from non-retina to retina.

00:47:48   They're not going to move to 3x retina or 4x retina.

00:47:51   There's no point to it, right?

00:47:53   And the brightness is what it is.

00:47:55   So getting a studio display now, even though the studio display has been out for a while,

00:48:00   it's still, in my opinion, is a good buy.

00:48:01   I know it's expensive.

00:48:02   You can, or if you want to buy a third party, I know there's more 5k options out there.

00:48:07   That are retina quality.

00:48:08   I'm a big fan of the studio display.

00:48:10   I love mine.

00:48:10   I love the nano texture thing, which is expensive, but it solves all of these incredibly harsh

00:48:18   sunlight glare angles I have or lighting issues I have in my home office.

00:48:22   And I don't care about the camera.

00:48:25   I mean, I do care about the camera.

00:48:26   I wish the camera were better.

00:48:27   Yes, for the price.

00:48:28   That's my only real hit.

00:48:30   So I bought the VESA model, which is typically what I buy for these things.

00:48:34   And then I have an expensive monitor arm because I prefer that because that way I can actually

00:48:38   rotate it and I don't have to deal with that BS.

00:48:42   That is annoying to me that for the price they charge, that you have to make your decision

00:48:45   when you buy it, if you actually want to be able to rotate it or not.

00:48:49   And I had the LG 5k display before.

00:48:52   And what's it called?

00:48:53   The very fine, the very fine.

00:48:55   Yeah, the super fine, whatever it is.

00:48:56   Yeah.

00:48:56   The not so fine.

00:48:58   The ultra fine.

00:48:59   That's what it was.

00:49:00   The ultra fine.

00:49:01   And that was fine.

00:49:02   The slightly disappointment thing I think for me, I was like, I'd wanted it to be, and

00:49:06   if the camera had been better, I'd been like, oh, okay, well then this is worth a 50%

00:49:09   premium on what it used to cost.

00:49:12   And, or 40% or whatever it was.

00:49:14   And the camera is garbage.

00:49:15   And I don't like that it doesn't have a power button.

00:49:17   I use the trick that you use where I got the smart plug so that I can actually power cycle

00:49:23   it.

00:49:23   But I have come around in my like year and a half or however long it's been, close to

00:49:28   two years now since I've bought the thing, cause I got it like literally I pre-ordered

00:49:32   it the day that it was announced.

00:49:33   I have come around and I've gone, okay, I think it's expensive, but if you are someone

00:49:39   like you and I who will not be happy with anything other than 2x, right?

00:49:43   Like, and I can't, I can't use a 4k on a Mac.

00:49:46   I just can't.

00:49:46   No, me neither.

00:49:48   Unless it's a 24 inch size, in which case then it actually would be 2x, but I can't

00:49:52   use a 27 inch or a 32 inch 4k monitor on a Mac.

00:49:55   I just can't.

00:49:56   I need that pixel doubling.

00:49:58   And that's the case.

00:49:59   I mean, your, your option is basically the studio display.

00:50:03   Yeah.

00:50:03   So I do think that's a better buy.

00:50:06   I think if you were waiting for 27 inch or bigger consumer prosumer level way of doing

00:50:14   Apple Silicon on your desktop, if you had bought the studio display as soon as it came

00:50:19   out and just bought whatever the then current, I don't know if they were still in the M1

00:50:25   or if the M2 Mac minis were, I think the M2s had just come out.

00:50:28   You, that display will be fine.

00:50:31   And then you could, I know M3 Mac minis aren't out yet, but you could upgrade next year when

00:50:37   it happens.

00:50:38   You could wait for the M4 in a year and a half or two years, whenever that's going to

00:50:42   happen.

00:50:42   Oh yeah, no, cause this thing's going to last a decade at least, right?

00:50:45   Like already it's, it's seven years old, the technology anyway.

00:50:49   And that was the one thing we lost when we went from the regular to the retina IMAX was

00:50:55   that the way that they could do the doubling, they had to get rid of target display mode.

00:50:58   And that had been great with the previous IMAX because you could use them like as a, as a

00:51:03   standalone display, you can't do that anymore.

00:51:06   And so I think that is a great point from a, just a value perspective, having them separate.

00:51:11   I think you're right.

00:51:11   That's a better deal.

00:51:13   I still love having like a proper all-in-one, but you're not wrong.

00:51:17   Like if I were to do it tomorrow, like if I were actually going to replace the completely

00:51:22   maxed out Intel iMac that I have that I bought in 2020, even though I knew when I bought

00:51:27   it, like they'd already announced Apple Silicon, but I bought it for a reason.

00:51:30   I knew that it was going to be a while for some of the stuff that I do to be M1 ready.

00:51:35   And I was like, just go all out, spend all the money on it and, and upgrade the hell

00:51:41   out of the thing.

00:51:41   And, and it's three years later, it's still a very capable machine.

00:51:45   But if I were to do that again, I would absolutely have either like a Mac studio or Mac mini

00:51:50   pro paired with the studio display.

00:51:52   Like that's what I would be doing.

00:51:53   Yeah.

00:51:54   I do think that is better for more people, but I totally, I do get it.

00:51:59   You're right though.

00:51:59   There's some people that, and whether it's logical or just affection, people want an

00:52:04   all-in-one.

00:52:05   And if I ruled Apple, I would make a bigger iMac too.

00:52:09   Yeah.

00:52:09   I like this size.

00:52:11   I love that they're colorful.

00:52:12   I think they look great.

00:52:14   I think they look fantastic.

00:52:15   Like I've almost bought one a few times that I have no need for and that I can't even justify

00:52:20   it that way.

00:52:20   They would just be like, Oh, it's a secondary machine.

00:52:22   I'm like, you have so many computers.

00:52:24   And that's where I will, like, I can convince myself to buy a black laptop, but I can't

00:52:28   convince myself to have like a superfluous pink iMac as much as I would love it.

00:52:33   But I wish they made a bigger one.

00:52:34   Me too.

00:52:35   Me too.

00:52:35   That'd be lovely.

00:52:36   I don't have much more to say about the iMac though.

00:52:38   We can go back to the Mac pro.

00:52:40   Yeah.

00:52:40   Let's go back to the Mac pro.

00:52:41   Yeah.

00:52:41   I don't have much.

00:52:42   I will say this.

00:52:43   I was in the Apple store last week.

00:52:44   I needed to buy, I'll explain.

00:52:46   Yeah.

00:52:46   Everybody knows I have a very old car.

00:52:48   My car is 2006 accurate.

00:52:51   I need to buy a new car, but I don't drive that much.

00:52:53   And so my car is so old that when we bought it, the option, the upgrade option was to

00:52:59   get a built in 30 pin adapter and I had the wisdom and I thought, ah, that's not here

00:53:06   for long.

00:53:06   So I didn't get it.

00:53:08   But so we, our car has no way of no Bluetooth.

00:53:12   There's no way there's no car player or anything like that.

00:53:14   And because I really should have years ago replaced it and lease something new.

00:53:19   So I'm not going to spend the money to put like a car play system in.

00:53:23   So anyway, I've got a, I'm one of those tape players.

00:53:27   That's a cassette tape.

00:53:28   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:28   Yeah.

00:53:29   For the Bluetooth, right?

00:53:30   Yeah.

00:53:30   Well, no, no, I could buy Bluetooth, but instead I have the headphone jack one.

00:53:34   Oh, okay, cool.

00:53:35   So I know they make them, I probably, I should look into the Bluetooth, but I have a cassette

00:53:40   tape that you put in the tape deck and then there's a wire that comes out of it and you

00:53:44   plug it in.

00:53:45   But I realized only when I had to drive somewhere like a week and a half ago, oh shit, I have

00:53:51   a new iPhone and I can't plug in lightning.

00:53:53   And it was like one of the few times I was like, oh, I thought I got rid of all the lightning

00:53:58   I needed to.

00:53:58   And I didn't.

00:53:59   So I needed to buy Apple's $9 headphone jack to USB-C adapter.

00:54:05   Right.

00:54:05   I live near the Apple store here in Philadelphia.

00:54:07   And so I just, when I was walking by, went in to get it.

00:54:11   And I went in to buy this $9 little thing and the self-checkout was nice.

00:54:16   I didn't have to talk to anybody, but it literally caught my eye.

00:54:20   And I just thought, man, those iMacs look cool.

00:54:24   Yeah, they do.

00:54:24   They look great.

00:54:26   It's like the only color in the whole store.

00:54:28   I know.

00:54:28   I know.

00:54:29   I hope and look, although to go back to MacBook Pro, like we got black, which I realized is

00:54:34   not as bright as I would like, but this is a real black.

00:54:37   This isn't the weird, very shades of black that we got on the phone this year.

00:54:41   It's good in person.

00:54:42   It's not black.

00:54:43   It's not black.

00:54:44   It really is space.

00:54:45   Very, very dark gray.

00:54:47   I almost feel like maybe black wouldn't be right.

00:54:50   I actually think maybe this is as dark as it should go.

00:54:53   Yeah.

00:54:54   I mean, for aluminum, that's probably, they're probably getting as dark as they can get because

00:54:59   with plastic, you can obviously go completely black, but aluminum, you can't.

00:55:04   So, I mean, I can't wait to see it in person.

00:55:06   Well, but what about the iPhone 7, right?

00:55:10   That was the year where they had...

00:55:11   Yeah, but the, oh, that was beautiful.

00:55:14   They had two, they had two black iPhone 7s.

00:55:16   They had the matte black.

00:55:18   And then they had the shiny one.

00:55:19   The shiny jet black.

00:55:20   I love the jet black.

00:55:21   Jet black.

00:55:22   That thing was great, but that thing, speak, talk about things that like developed kind

00:55:26   of a patina and that didn't hold up super well.

00:55:28   Like, I think there's a reason why that was only one year that they had that.

00:55:32   Yeah.

00:55:32   Because...

00:55:33   You could scratch it by looking at it.

00:55:35   Yes, and I did.

00:55:36   It was funny because I got one of those.

00:55:38   That was the last year that I was part of the review program because after that, I switched

00:55:42   careers and one of my colleagues broke it and I was so annoyed.

00:55:46   And so we had to like pay to get it repaired and whatnot because I was like, this is checked

00:55:49   out under me.

00:55:50   I was like, yeah, I was like, you, I don't care how it gets paid for, but you have to

00:55:54   get this thing repaired.

00:55:55   But even before that, yeah, it was one of those things.

00:55:58   Like I just had it on my desk.

00:56:00   Like literally, I just come back from my briefing with Apple.

00:56:02   I had on my desk, I think for half an hour and it got like the first like scratch on

00:56:06   it.

00:56:06   I was like, I didn't even touch this, but it was beautiful.

00:56:09   All right.

00:56:10   This is, this is kind of weird.

00:56:13   Here's a technical detail.

00:56:15   And again, reading a chart on a podcast, I realized this is difficult, but all right.

00:56:21   The regular M3, not pro, but the regular M3, this has eight CPU cores, four performance,

00:56:30   four efficiency, four and four.

00:56:32   OK, the M3 pro has 12, six and six, six high performance cores, six efficiency.

00:56:41   OK, that sounds like an upgrade over regular, right?

00:56:43   You go from four and four to six and six.

00:56:45   The M3 Max has 16 cores, but it's 12 high performance and only four efficiency.

00:56:56   So you actually lose two of the efficiency cores.

00:57:01   I find that to be a very strange configuration matrix.

00:57:06   I guess the idea is if you're in the market for Max, you really are hunting high performance,

00:57:16   not long battery life, not efficiency.

00:57:19   And so that's the reason you're spending all this money.

00:57:22   But again, maybe I'm biased by my desire to get the Max just for the RAM.

00:57:29   And I'd kind of rather if I were only going to have only going to have 16 CPU cores,

00:57:35   I'd rather have 10 performance and still have six efficiency.

00:57:40   I think.

00:57:41   I don't know.

00:57:42   It seems weird that you lose two efficiency cores.

00:57:45   I don't know.

00:57:45   I don't get it.

00:57:47   Yeah, that is interesting.

00:57:48   Again, I'm curious to go back to what it was like with the M2 Max and M1 Max to see if

00:57:54   the breakdown was that different.

00:57:56   And I don't think it was, but yeah, to your point, I mean, this is one thing that I've

00:58:00   noticed kind of anecdotally having both the Pro and the Max machines, granted one is a

00:58:05   16 inch and one is a 14.

00:58:07   So battery life is going to be better on the 16 regardless.

00:58:09   But I have noticed like even taking out that sort of thing, I did have to say like my anecdotal

00:58:15   opinion over the last two years or so has been that the Pro did have better battery

00:58:21   life if you don't need all that RAM and if you really think that the Max is, I think,

00:58:26   yeah, I think they're optimizing for the power there.

00:58:29   Not to say that the battery life is bad on the Max at all, because it's not.

00:58:33   But the battery life on the Pro is better, at least from my experience.

00:58:36   Yeah, I think it's going to be.

00:58:38   And I kind of asked about that and it's like, again, you don't get a square answer from

00:58:43   Apple, but the up to 22 hours of battery life is with the lower end configs.

00:58:48   They're actually more power efficient or maybe the M3.

00:58:53   I don't know.

00:58:53   They don't want to answer.

00:58:55   I think because the more money you spend, you actually lose some battery life because

00:58:59   you're lighting up more RAM and more CPU cores like the sweet spot for battery life

00:59:07   is somewhere in the middle.

00:59:08   But I just find these numbers unusual.

00:59:11   And the other thing that's unusual.

00:59:13   So the base model, the regular M3 chip has three options for RAM.

00:59:19   And again, like I just reiterated, this is true for the iMac too.

00:59:22   You can go 8, 16 or 24.

00:59:27   Well, those to me are very normal computer numbers.

00:59:29   8, 16 and 24.

00:59:31   8, 16, 32 would be a little more normal because it's always sort of like a doubling.

00:59:36   But I get it.

00:59:37   You just keep adding eight.

00:59:38   But with the M3 Pro, the two RAM options are 18 gigabytes and 36 gigabytes.

00:59:45   Yeah, that's weird.

00:59:46   Those are weird computer numbers, right?

00:59:49   18 is not a, I don't know how else to say it because it's not a power of two.

00:59:52   It's not a computer number.

00:59:54   I mean, it's better, right?

00:59:55   I'd rather have 18 than 16.

00:59:58   I agree.

00:59:59   And then to make things weirder too, then at the first level of M3 Max, if you do the 14

01:00:04   core, 30 GPU.

01:00:06   So the 14 core CPU, 30 core GPU, that one is 36 and 96 are your two options.

01:00:11   So, okay, you're tripling or whatever, but like you're tripling.

01:00:15   But you're back to computer numbers.

01:00:18   Exactly.

01:00:18   You are.

01:00:18   But although it is now doubled, like the 18 or whatever, but it's 36 and 96.

01:00:25   And then once you go up to that 16 core, that's when you can go 48, 64 or 128.

01:00:31   That is the interesting thing there too, is that if you want to get the 96 gigabytes of

01:00:35   unified memory, you have to get the lower level M3 Max.

01:00:39   So your options, really, if you're going to get the high end M3 Max, for all intents and

01:00:45   purposes, you can get a 48 gigabytes, but no one's going to do that.

01:00:49   It's going to be 64 or 128.

01:00:50   Right.

01:00:51   I don't get it.

01:00:53   I'm sure it all makes sense.

01:00:55   But somehow I would need to get Johnny Suruji on the podcast, or maybe Ternus would explain

01:01:02   it.

01:01:02   But I don't think that they would explain it.

01:01:04   They're just like, "Yeah, 18 is better than 16."

01:01:07   Yeah, it has to be something I'm assuming with how their cores are working and whether

01:01:13   their maximum, like since it's their unified memory or whatever.

01:01:15   And that's the only thing I can gather is that they want to be able to dedicate a certain

01:01:18   amount of RAM to the GPU.

01:01:20   But I don't know.

01:01:21   That's just me completely guessing.

01:01:24   Yeah.

01:01:24   It does seem overall like they're putting more of a gap between the M3 Pro and the M3

01:01:32   Max.

01:01:33   Right.

01:01:33   It's like, and I think the M3 Pro, those are the systems for most people to get.

01:01:38   And I know you and I have just spent half the podcast talking about how we love to load

01:01:42   up on thousands of dollars of extra RAM for our browser tabs.

01:01:46   But the truth is, Apple Silicon machines do swap so fast because of the SSD performance

01:01:53   and everything being integrated in a tight way that even if you are a browser hoarder

01:01:59   like we are, the 36 or even 24 gigs of RAM is really pretty good.

01:02:07   It's not like your machine's going to bog down because you have a bunch of tabs.

01:02:11   But it just seems like that's the sweet spot for most users.

01:02:14   And you can go up to 36.

01:02:16   That's plenty of RAM for most people.

01:02:18   Yeah.

01:02:18   And it's an improvement over the last gen, which was 32, which was where you could max

01:02:23   out on the Pro.

01:02:23   So you're getting more RAM.

01:02:24   And I will say it's a $2,000 price difference if you're going to go for like the, so an

01:02:30   M3 Pro with 12 core, 36 gigs of RAM and a two terabyte SSD.

01:02:34   That is like $3,200.

01:02:37   And if you get one that is like the model that can go up to 128 gigs of RAM and a two

01:02:43   terabyte SSD, that's $5,100.

01:02:46   So you're talking about like literally $2,000 difference to have that RAM increase.

01:02:52   And if you go from 36 to 64 gigs, that's still like $1,000, $1,200.

01:02:58   So it's, I think you're right.

01:03:02   I think they're making a much bigger differentiation between the kind of the Pro and the Max.

01:03:06   And that's very evident in the pricing, frankly.

01:03:09   Yeah.

01:03:09   The sweet spot for most people is the M3 Pro chip and those configurations.

01:03:16   And there's this almost a chasm pricing wise once you go beyond that.

01:03:23   And so if you've either got the money and like me have more money than cents and want

01:03:27   to spend it anyway.

01:03:28   But for most people when they hear, oh, that's $1,000 or $2,000 difference, they're like,

01:03:33   oh, not for me.

01:03:34   I'll take the other ones.

01:03:35   Forget it.

01:03:35   You know, it's not like, oh, it's only a $200 more.

01:03:39   And then they're like, oh, I wasn't going to spend that much.

01:03:41   Right.

01:03:41   No, I'll get it.

01:03:42   Yeah, no, they're making it very clear because it's basically like you could get an

01:03:46   other laptop.

01:03:46   And that's honestly not even a bad way to look at it.

01:03:49   Honestly.

01:03:49   I know.

01:03:50   That's honestly a way you go, okay, you know what?

01:03:52   You might want to just get like a well configured like MacBook Air as well as this thing if

01:03:58   you really, you know, you could do that for the same prices getting the Max.

01:04:03   And so if you don't need all of that, yeah, honestly, now that I'm thinking about that,

01:04:08   I'm still going to size queen, but I'm still going to do that.

01:04:13   But I think better for other people if you're like, okay, you could get two laptops.

01:04:17   Right.

01:04:18   For the same price.

01:04:18   I guess basically it's like, okay, M3, that's our consumer chip.

01:04:24   Yep.

01:04:24   Now we put this chip into a pro body at $1600.

01:04:29   And what's the upgrade to go from eight to 16 with that machine?

01:04:34   Probably $200.

01:04:35   Yeah, right.

01:04:37   So what is it?

01:04:39   $1800, right?

01:04:40   $1799.

01:04:41   That's a really good laptop, though.

01:04:43   It is.

01:04:43   Once you bump that up to 16 gigs of RAM.

01:04:46   And actually when you do that, yeah, it's $200 to go to 16 gigs of RAM.

01:04:50   And it's $400 to go to 24.

01:04:52   So depending, although again, I still think if you're really looking at that point,

01:04:58   get a MacBook Air.

01:05:00   But yeah, but it's a good deal.

01:05:02   The M3 Pro is a great chip for most people who are looking for a pro budgeted laptop.

01:05:08   And then the M3 Max is really where they're like flexing.

01:05:13   They're just like this.

01:05:15   There is no comparable laptop hardware like this on the Intel side of the fence.

01:05:20   There is no competition and or there's competition, but there's nothing that's in the same ballpark.

01:05:26   This is a total flex.

01:05:27   It is where Apple is strongest with laptops, right?

01:05:32   Everybody knows that with the desktops, their high-end pro level money is no object graphics

01:05:41   performance is just not in the same ballpark as Nvidia yet, right?

01:05:46   It might be another generation or two.

01:05:50   Maybe never.

01:05:50   Who knows if they're going to catch up, but they're not.

01:05:52   So that's not Apple's strength, but laptop performance is Apple's strength.

01:05:59   And they're flexing really, really well.

01:06:02   And again, there were so many.

01:06:04   I just want to say before we move past this whole segment, I was predicting I wrote a

01:06:10   whole column last week saying maybe they're just going to have M2s.

01:06:13   And this is they're calling it scary fast because they just want to keep, you know,

01:06:18   because if the M3 isn't coming till next year, they just want to spin the M2 as still pretty

01:06:25   good, which it would be.

01:06:26   And it is if you're buying like a MacBook Air, it's fine.

01:06:29   It's really, really good.

01:06:31   It is really, really impressive.

01:06:33   I just I feel like maybe I haven't taken enough time in this show to just say this is really

01:06:39   impressive that they're not just launching the M3 and three nanometer for Apple Silicon

01:06:44   in 2023.

01:06:45   They're doing it with the pro and the max chips too.

01:06:49   Yeah.

01:06:49   And it's really they're execution wise, operationally, whatever you want to say, they are

01:06:55   firing on all cylinders.

01:06:57   Yeah.

01:06:57   I did want to ask you about that because in that column, one of the best arguments I thought

01:07:01   you made about why we might not see an M3 pro and three max this time was the vision

01:07:08   pro, which is supposed to be M2.

01:07:10   Now, my question for you is, do you think they change that?

01:07:14   That's I have gotten so many I have friends who are hitting me up now I've got a guest

01:07:20   on the show hitting me up with this question people I'm asked about it is a super good

01:07:23   question.

01:07:24   Would they say okay, yes, we told you back in June attempt to but surprise, it's going

01:07:30   to have an M3.

01:07:30   I guess it's possible, right?

01:07:34   I mean, it's certain nobody's going to be disappointed if they said that right now.

01:07:37   It's not like and the way that Apple Silicon works developer wise, I don't think it would

01:07:49   cause any like a line of code change to anybody, any developer who's like gone all in on developing

01:07:59   for vision pro trying to be there on day one with either an all new app or some app that

01:08:06   they want to bring to the vision pro quote unquote early next year.

01:08:10   And they've spent every day since WWDC working on it and they've gone to the lab and maybe

01:08:19   maybe they've qualified for the secretive program where they can get pre release hardware.

01:08:27   I don't think saying okay, we're going to ship it with the M3 instead of the M2 is going

01:08:32   to cause any problems.

01:08:34   It's not like oh, I'd optimize for the M2.

01:08:36   No, that's not the way Swift UI works or nothing works like that.

01:08:41   It's all just better.

01:08:42   So I guess it's possible and if that was their plan all along, of course, they weren't

01:08:49   going to say that back in June.

01:08:52   But there is a tiny little credibility issue with doing that, right?

01:08:59   It's like, I don't know how to say it.

01:09:05   There's a part of that that would rub me the wrong way where Apple says blank.

01:09:10   They do blank, right?

01:09:12   They and it doesn't matter what blank is, they follow through.

01:09:15   But I don't see how else they could if the plan all along was to have an M3 and the vision

01:09:19   pro quote unquote early next year, I don't know how else they could have done it because

01:09:23   they couldn't say well they could they I shouldn't say can't but they wouldn't say it's

01:09:28   going to have the M3 when nothing else is shipping with the M3 ad and it wasn't going

01:09:32   to be announced till the end of October.

01:09:34   And I also don't think they could have not mentioned what chip it has right, right?

01:09:40   They can't say it's going to ship with a great Apple Silicon chip and the revolutionary R1

01:09:46   chip for the low latency camera to all the stuff the R1 does because if they hadn't said

01:09:52   if they just said it's going to have Apple Silicon everybody would have guessed oh it's

01:09:57   the M3, right?

01:09:58   So I guess they could but I kind of think it's still going to be the M2.

01:10:03   I really wouldn't want to bet on this, Christina.

01:10:06   To me, I'm like 50/50 on this.

01:10:08   I kind of am too and I get your perspective about like feeling maybe sort of misled and

01:10:13   whatnot at the same time I feel like if they could swap this out with an M3 I feel like

01:10:19   that would just be a win especially since the price of the Vision Pro being what it

01:10:24   is and the fact that it's a niche device.

01:10:26   I will say as someone who is unclear whether I'm going to be getting one or not and actually

01:10:32   if I'm buying this laptop that's probably more in favor of the me not getting a Vision

01:10:38   Pro at least at the offset.

01:10:41   We'll have to wait to see but I would say that it would be something that would annoy

01:10:44   me if I'm looking at okay I'm spending $3,700 on this thing and I don't even have the

01:10:49   latest chip.

01:10:50   It starts at $3,500.

01:10:53   Right, right, right.

01:10:54   So I'm starting at this and I don't even have the latest chip and I feel like that

01:10:57   would be honestly I think that would annoy me more than whatever disingenuous or oscification

01:11:04   they said about the chip when it came out.

01:11:06   It's also possible and we don't know, TSMC had delays and they had their own issues and

01:11:13   I wonder too given the fact that this event that they did this on a Monday night the whole

01:11:18   way this was done this is coming in really hot at least it seems like it.

01:11:22   Obviously they've had these things ready to go for weeks because they hasn't produced

01:11:26   them all but it does strike me as this was something that didn't and even the various

01:11:32   rumors being conflicted I think shows that this was not kind of a guaranteed thing that

01:11:37   they were going to hit November to launch these chips so potentially it's one of those

01:11:43   things where they were kind of hedging and like okay we don't want to pre-announce or

01:11:46   pre-do anything because we don't know if these will be out by the time Vision Pro is

01:11:52   out.

01:11:52   I sort of think it comes down to and this is far way complete I would say completely

01:11:58   outside my area of expertise hard computer hardware engineering.

01:12:02   I think it I think maybe it ultimately comes down to like I just said a couple of minutes

01:12:09   ago from a software developer side you really don't need to worry about which M series

01:12:16   chip and this is true for all of Apple silicon it's true for iPhone chips too right you

01:12:19   don't have to target the A17 Pro or the A16 or A15 you just right compile for Apple

01:12:25   silicon and it runs great the newer faster the chip the faster your software runs great

01:12:30   but for hardware engineering like the hardware engineers making the Vision Pro this is what

01:12:38   I just don't know like maybe it's the case that to eke out all of the battery life and

01:12:45   the thermals of this thing that's on your face right so the thermals are super super

01:12:51   important right there's some kind of fans like what they call it they don't call them

01:12:55   fans but a active cooling system or whatever they call it right right right it needs to

01:13:00   be cool and so it and if it's all packed into this tiny little thing in front of your

01:13:06   face maybe the lead time on eking out every single ounce of performance is such that they

01:13:13   kind of needed to design this thing for the known M2 chip 18 months ago yeah and there's

01:13:23   they can't they can't just say okay now we can just take that out like a Lego break and

01:13:29   put the M3 in there like hardware I think maybe doesn't work like that so if you really

01:13:35   made me bet right now I think the Vision Pro will ship with the M2 as they promised I because

01:13:41   I I kind of think that it has that kind of lead time no I mean that that's a really good

01:13:46   point because as much as these as similar these chips are like you said from a software perspective

01:13:51   I don't know anything about the cooling I don't know especially since the the nanometer size

01:13:56   is different that would negate it from being a plug and play sort of thing and so if they're

01:13:59   going to have to go back and and do significant retooling which again they might have already

01:14:04   been in the process of doing who knows but if they weren't then I would I would tend

01:14:08   to agree with you it would make it difficult for them to make a switch like that and I think

01:14:15   that if you're if we look at the base level performance as much as Apple loves to show

01:14:20   their graphs and talk about how much better performance is and and use a big you know

01:14:23   two and a half times 40 percent better this and that I don't think that it's going to

01:14:29   be that significant for again like from from a user perspective right especially if the

01:14:34   hardware is being or the software is being used the way that it is and so yeah I think

01:14:39   that's probably a good point. Speculating on exactly this point with readers and mastodon

01:14:45   followers and everybody asking me do you think that if they do go to M3 for the Mac they'll

01:14:50   upgrade the vision pro to M3 automatically or whatever you want to say it I went back

01:14:56   and reread the vision pro marketing page on the website and went down to the performance

01:15:01   section and as and it also matches what I remember from the the spiel during the WWDC

01:15:09   keynote that and and I also I don't think it's spin I think it's true that the performance

01:15:18   story for vision pro is more about the R1 than the M chip whatever M chip it is and

01:15:25   it is still the CPU and it is the GPU and so it's not like CPU and GPU don't matter

01:15:32   on the vision pro but it's the R1 yeah that really sets it apart they don't brag like they

01:15:39   like Steve Jobs nobody can brag like Steve Jobs did but Steve Jobs when they announced the

01:15:44   original iPhone and said we're five years ahead of the nobody else is within five years of the iPhone

01:15:50   which kind of turned out to be true I don't know I think that the best Android phone that was

01:15:56   comparable it wasn't quite five years I remember kind of doing ballpark math for yeah performance

01:16:02   and specs and stuff it was probably two and a half three or three or four three four it depends

01:16:06   which Android phone you want I was gonna say I think that by the time they got to the their own

01:16:10   chips once they got to the iPhone 4 I don't think it was a competition anymore I think that once

01:16:16   it was but why but the the first iPhone they were so far ahead from the user experience and the

01:16:22   passive screen and everything else and then Android ships a year later it is not in a place

01:16:28   where it could really compete then so you're really at two years I think probably before

01:16:33   Android could could even be quasi in the same conversation but I think that once Apple started

01:16:38   doing its own chips like that that was a completely different ball game but I yeah I get I just get

01:16:44   the feeling like if you pose that question to Rockwell or Jaws or or Tim Cook or whoever you

01:16:52   thought would give a good answer where where do you think Vision Pro is the furthest ahead

01:16:56   of any other company in the headset space I think the R1 chip would be their answer as to where

01:17:03   they're the furthest ahead and it combines with the displays but they're not making the displays

01:17:08   they're buying the displays from Sony and they might be buying all of them you know sort of like

01:17:13   the way they've sort of like the way they've effectively bought up all of TSMC's three nanometer

01:17:19   production for the near term so it is so those displays inside the Vision Pro are sort of an

01:17:27   Apple exclusive but because they're not the ones who make them whereas the R1 is their design and

01:17:33   it's all theirs mine mine mine nobody else has the R1 but I kind of feel like that's the performance

01:17:39   story and that's how they'll well how are they going to debut this thing with an M2 it's $3,500

01:17:44   and by the the earliest they're going to do it is January right and so it'll already be three

01:17:52   months not the the latest and greatest and that's if it is January you know February or March totally

01:17:59   I think you make a great point I think the thing there too I mean like I said this is just me

01:18:04   is more like being annoyed from like a looking at as a as a consumer who's all about speeds and feeds

01:18:09   although that shouldn't really necessarily be what we judge it on but to your point look even though

01:18:13   they don't make the the screens Sony does that R1 is why you have the low latency and why you have

01:18:20   the refresh rate I haven't experienced the Vision Pro but everybody who I've talked to who has has

01:18:24   been blown away and and the fact that the clarity is what it is the responsiveness is what it is

01:18:30   that's what sells it the same way that the Apple didn't make the the first chip in in the iPhone

01:18:36   right but it was the responsiveness of the UI it was the fact that you could reach to Zoom

01:18:40   it was that whole fluid thing even though you didn't have multitasking and you couldn't

01:18:44   send an MMS or or like like if there were I forgot about that there were deficiencies

01:18:51   but it didn't matter because the interface I mean it was just such a didn't have apps but it was

01:18:56   such a huge step forward that I think that the only company that is is conceivably even in the

01:19:03   conversation is meta and what they're doing with like the Quest Pro 3 and and and and all that

01:19:09   stuff is like not even it's again it's not even in the same conversation like it's like it's like

01:19:14   it's like okay well this is cute this is the one that was actually going to go forward and that's

01:19:19   because they've got the entire experience there so maybe it doesn't really matter like the

01:19:23   technicalities of what chip is in it as long as they can get all those things working together

01:19:27   to deliver that experience because that's what's going to make or break the Vision Pro is is that

01:19:32   experience yeah and I I just kind of and I'd be happy if I'm wrong that if they can make them as

01:19:37   fast as they want but I just kind of feel from it it's largely based on on the supply chain rumors

01:19:46   about these displays right but the displays will be the constraining element of this whole thing

01:19:53   and I kind of feel like there will be enough demand I you know for this first generation one

01:19:59   that I I think it's going to be back ordered all year oh yeah and maybe we'll loosen up by the time

01:20:06   Christmas rolls around but then by that time it'll be 10 months old and it's questionable whether

01:20:11   people should be buying it or waiting for right vision pro 2 or the of course non-pro version

01:20:19   of the thing which Gurman's already got some reports about that one of the ways they're

01:20:22   going to save money is not having the front-facing eyesight display but I really think that they're

01:20:29   going to be they're going to sell them as fast as they can make them at 3500 all year long whether

01:20:35   it has the m2 or not they could actually I honestly think that they could say you know what

01:20:40   we actually downgraded it to the m1 I think you're right I think you're right and in fact I'm sure

01:20:44   that early iterations of it probably were using an m1 right like I mean right I guess yeah I mean

01:20:49   they had that then right because as long as they've been working on this so they I think I

01:20:53   think to your point yeah especially if the supply constraint is going to be those Sony displays and

01:20:58   and I'm sure they're buying every single one that Sony can make but you know just just as for many

01:21:03   years they bought every single sensor that Sony could make for the smartphone cameras and they

01:21:08   still buy the majority of the ones that Sony makes there but yeah I mean I think I think that's

01:21:14   yeah I think that they're not gonna have any problem being sold out on this thing and again

01:21:18   I don't as much as again like it would be you feel in some way a little bit of a slight at the other

01:21:24   end if you're buying this product which starts at 3500 that is very niche and is going to have a very

01:21:30   kind of specific kind of market at least in the beginning I think that it I still stand by the

01:21:35   fact that this is as cool as this looks this is still a product that is going to be searching for

01:21:41   that product market fit for quite some time I don't know how much it matters with that first

01:21:47   gen it's kind of like the first gen iPad where a lot of us bought it and we loved it and we knew

01:21:52   what it represented but it was that iPad 2 that was really the one that everybody got into that

01:21:58   was thinner that had the better battery life that was was a just leaps and bounds better but you

01:22:05   have to you have to start somewhere and so it doesn't really matter I'm so glad you thought

01:22:09   to bring it up though because if we would have ended this show without without talking about

01:22:13   the vision pro what are they going to do about the M chip and the vision pro I would have I would

01:22:17   have lost my mind I would have like I would have been like calling you at four in the morning like

01:22:21   you can get to talk about it no can you hop back on and well no because because that was one of the

01:22:25   reasons why I was kind of on team I don't know if they're going to release an M3 I know right me too

01:22:31   because you made a really compelling case I was like well it definitely threw me off yeah I'm

01:22:35   happy to say I'm wrong I'm I'm all I'm so glad to be wrong because this this M3 lineup is great and

01:22:41   I'm glad I'm glad the pros and the max are out already and it's all seems too good to be true

01:22:47   and again so much for the supply chain stuff like that supply chain rumor was that the A17 pro

01:22:55   alone was going to max out TSMC's three nanometer production it at least at scale yeah apparently

01:23:02   not for this while I mentioned that for the super nerds out there in terms of which three

01:23:08   nanometer production process they're on they they would not say so I don't know and you know

01:23:14   will I guess we'll find out somehow soon ish I guess when people start buying them or somebody

01:23:20   takes them apart but I I don't know the answer to that and quite frankly I I don't care I was gonna

01:23:26   say I don't care either I'm just glad we're three nanometer which is incredibly impressive that's

01:23:30   what ATP is for yeah I was gonna say ATP can get into that and and yeah I fix it other people can

01:23:36   can buy them and delib them and and go through that process of figuring that stuff out which

01:23:40   would be very interesting I'd love to learn about it but I also I'm with you I kind of don't care I

01:23:46   mean like I care in terms of like it's interesting but it's not going to make any difference to me

01:23:50   about the fact that I want this black laptop all right let me take a break here and thank our

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01:26:57   continuing support of the show what were we talking about before I took that break

01:27:02   I guess we finished up with some of the three nanometer stuff oh that's right that's right

01:27:08   oh here's I know what I wanted to ask you sorry keep on this vision pro what are they going to do

01:27:15   again stick with the m2 as they promised or are they going to surprise us with an m3 here's my

01:27:20   question on that front and a lot of people like I said a lot a lot of listeners and readers have

01:27:26   been asking me about this all week I'm not at all surprised that they didn't mention it in the event

01:27:33   right and if they're not going to change it of course they didn't but let's just say they are

01:27:38   let's say it is going they are going to happily surprise us and upgrade the original first gen

01:27:44   vision pro to the m3 there's no way that they were going to mention it during the event tonight

01:27:50   because the event was focused on things you could buy and it was all mac all mac and all stuff that's

01:27:56   on sale as you and I speak right now by the time anybody listens to this you can already buy it

01:28:01   everything except the m3 max is shipping next week and they they told me when they said sometime in

01:28:08   november and apparently not even that late in november I don't know like middle of the month

01:28:12   that the m3 max configurations aren't going to be that far behind but they wouldn't say exactly but

01:28:19   uh I there's no way they were going to mention that in the in the in the show it's too distracting

01:28:24   right because it's the big shiny thing on the horizon it's it's it's like looking into the sun

01:28:30   and then trying to look at something else you're once they mention vision pro even at the end

01:28:34   everybody's going to forget about all this great new max stuff but here's my question would

01:28:38   would they wait until the second the the launch event of the vision pro and surprise us right

01:28:46   there on stage or would they make like a press release announcement later this month and just say

01:28:54   oh by the way customers love the m3 is when our new macbook pros and the new imax and we're happy

01:29:01   to say it's going to be in the vision pro in a press release to sort of take that just not not

01:29:08   to take it off the table but to sort of uh reduce the enthusiasm for vision pro I think that they

01:29:18   would say it at like the main event like I think that it would be one of those like special like

01:29:24   and and one more thing and guess what it's even better than we promised right because then then

01:29:29   I feel like that would be like it would make people even more exuberant like not only are we

01:29:33   bringing this out within the time frame we said we were going to and it's going to have all this

01:29:37   stuff but we made it even better when we started this out we said that it was going to be the m2

01:29:42   but now we've actually been able to get the latest processors latest and greatest in in these

01:29:47   headsets so it's going to be even more powerful blah blah blah blah blah that was my first

01:29:54   thought but then I thought but but they're all pre-recorded now so they can't do it they're not

01:29:59   going to be able to play for applause right yeah that's true so I've kind of my my first thought

01:30:06   was that they'll save it for the event because I know they're going to have another event and

01:30:10   people have even asked me do you think they're going to have another event and of course they

01:30:13   will right it's it's the the the playbook is the apple watch playbook you announce the product

01:30:20   one year and say it's coming next year and then when it comes the next year then you have a

01:30:26   dedicated event just for that product that's exactly what they did with apple watch in 2014

01:30:32   introductions slash 15 when it shipped or what or 13 and 4 whatever two years it was and they're

01:30:40   going to do that again they're going to have a special event is surely at steve jobs theater for

01:30:45   the media just for the vision pro quote unquote early next year I could see them waiting for it

01:30:51   but I kind of wonder I kind of feel like they're sneaky that way where they they'd love to have

01:30:59   like a little hey you know the the vision pro which is going to be awesome which was going to

01:31:05   be awesome just the way we promised it is going to be awesomer I don't know yeah but just just after

01:31:16   the enthusiasm for these m3 mac announcements cools off that would be the time that I would

01:31:23   expect something like that that's true I mean and I think you bring up a good point that these are

01:31:27   no longer live events which is sad to me because that would be it would be a great mic drop moment

01:31:32   right like these are things would be great with with an actual audience I hope that we can get

01:31:37   back to that point someday like I like that they can do these highly produced things I also do miss

01:31:42   the the experience of live to be honest right so but but that's a good point without having that

01:31:49   benefit of live I do think that you do lose a tremendous amount of the but wait there's more

01:31:55   aspect so yeah I think that's true I think that maybe when things are tapered down that would be

01:32:01   good almost like what we call like a second day story we like to juice the cycle once more so I

01:32:08   don't know I say stay tuned but it's exciting because we don't know yeah it is exciting I kind

01:32:13   of thought this whole event was kind of fun because we didn't know what was coming and people were all

01:32:18   over the map I was going to say that was the fun thing about this is that this is first time in a

01:32:22   really long time where there was a lot of just there were conflicting reports and we didn't know

01:32:27   what it was going to be and we knew it was gonna be max I mean they made that clear and by showing

01:32:32   the the black finder I was like okay are we going to get a black mac book like that was my deepest

01:32:37   like like want but but I still to be completely honest like I was like well I really want a black

01:32:44   mac book but I did not I I was like they're probably just going to give us like another

01:32:47   colored iMac or something right right and I was pleasantly surprised but yeah this was nice this

01:32:52   was one of those nice things that a it kind of came out of nowhere b it was a last minute

01:32:56   sort of thing c okay we we can talk about the fact that it was a little bit weird to do this

01:33:01   on a Monday night but yeah I'll also say they did it in half an hour like it was very tight

01:33:07   30 minutes which I very much applaud them for as somebody who's worked on events both pre-recorded

01:33:13   and not like to get that in into a 30 minute like tight like way that it was done was good it flowed

01:33:19   well and it was it was a nice surprise like it was a not something we were expecting because usually

01:33:26   we know well in advance they're going to be doing these mac events and this was this was a nice

01:33:31   surprise especially the fact that we got so much right like I I I was kind of expecting just kind

01:33:36   of like a mediocre kind of traditional like spec bump and it wasn't that I think that the fact that

01:33:42   we killed the touch bar finally rest in hell die in a fire never come back god I hate the touch bar

01:33:49   I don't hate the touch bar itself I don't but I also don't love it I'm like the only person who's

01:33:54   like ambivalent and I've been I've felt the same way about it ever since they first launched yeah

01:33:58   it's like I tried with it I really tried to make it work the only good thing about the touch bar

01:34:02   there were two good things one was the fingerprint sensor which was obviously like amazing and two was

01:34:08   I did really appreciate it was a very easy way to raise the brightness or the volume on your laptop

01:34:13   like that was I would use those sliders for that everything else I was like yeah this is going to

01:34:18   get in my way but you know like they but they gave us with this event like it looks like there's some

01:34:24   real performance improvements but also like this was a really solid lineup of of I think making the

01:34:30   mac lineup finally unified I'm a little disappointed that they never took like a second

01:34:35   crack at the at the touch bar yeah right that they just sort of like ah well forget it I don't know I

01:34:41   and I wonder like did they have like I'm sure they had ideas oh yeah far how far did they take them

01:34:48   for like okay okay the first one wasn't that great but but what if but what if and reimagined I

01:34:54   wonder I wonder if the touch bar was so associated with the butterfly keyboard that you know what I

01:34:59   mean even though they were separate but I wonder what was so associated with that that it was like

01:35:03   okay we need to just get away from this as quickly as possible the one thing weird about the touch

01:35:08   part of me always and this actually was the case I remember when apple showed it to me

01:35:11   at like the event because I had to fly out to to see it um I think I I um I could have gone locally

01:35:18   but I think I flew out to to look at the mac event I remember this because Microsoft had an event the

01:35:22   day before and then I had to get on an airplane and like fly across the country to go see the

01:35:26   laptops was that the touch bar more than any other laptop experience I'd ever had made me for the

01:35:33   first time actually touch the screen of my macbook which is not a mistake I've ever made but there

01:35:39   was this weird kind of disconnector I was like okay you're trying to do this but if you to me

01:35:44   it's like shit or get off the pot like either put a touch screen on the mac which I think is inevitable

01:35:50   at some at a certain point or don't but it felt like it was again kind of like this half-seized

01:35:57   thing that they they didn't really succeed either way but I did appreciate being able to raise the

01:36:01   volume or the the brightness on my laptop and obviously having the fingerprints and so it was

01:36:06   great what else did you think about the broadcast whatever you want to call the keynote what about

01:36:11   the halloween spooky framing that was cute that was cute it was a little bit distracting at some

01:36:17   points that they had like the background like the halloween like background music going on like

01:36:22   throughout the entire time I was like okay that that is a choice but I did appreciate that I

01:36:28   thought that with the whole black thing like that that fit the time of year the way they kind of

01:36:33   swooped in on on Tim I wish he'd been wearing like a Dracula costume or something like I think that

01:36:38   would really really you really would have no if you were there you would have no I mean I mean

01:36:42   yes but but but no Tim Cook is never going to do that I'm just saying like I appreciate like

01:36:47   if they leaned into the camp a little bit more I wouldn't have been mad but I also wouldn't expect

01:36:52   them to right because it's Apple but no I thought I thought was well so I did something interesting

01:36:57   this year I did not this event rather I did not watch it on like the official Apple website or the

01:37:04   app the TV app I watched it on YouTube and I found that to be a better experience and have

01:37:10   less of the latency issues that sometimes happens from the official apps because they struggle with

01:37:16   their CDN stuff to be able to get it out to as many people and so you will have an instance where

01:37:21   I will have it up on three different devices and it'll be at different points on every single

01:37:26   device with however much of a buffer there might be and and I tried it this time I was like let's

01:37:31   see what the YouTube thing is like and look you can make a lot of criticisms about YouTube and

01:37:36   I definitely have but the one thing they know how to do correctly is like video and especially live

01:37:41   streams and so I do it I did appreciate that they've started to simulcast these things because

01:37:48   frankly like yeah use Google servers I mean have your own do your own thing but but use somebody

01:37:53   who's like this is literally what they're the best in the world at I think it's telling that

01:37:58   unless I'm missing somebody everybody puts their stuff on YouTube oh yeah I mean Apple the fact

01:38:05   that Apple live streams it on YouTube I know Microsoft puts all of their stuff on YouTube

01:38:12   you know and that was a fight keynotes that was a fight it that I think meta does meta does

01:38:17   everybody does yeah and I have to say I can speak for the Microsoft part of it because when I worked

01:38:22   there there was a contention of executives who did not want to do anything on YouTube because

01:38:27   competitor and I very I didn't know what I was getting into this was for Microsoft build the

01:38:33   first year that I was involved in and stuff with that so this was 2018 I was very like loud and

01:38:39   like vociferous I was like we have to be on YouTube this is where everyone goes this is the number two

01:38:43   search engine in the world I don't we can use our own player and whatnot but we have to have this

01:38:48   content there and we have to simulcast because this is literally where everyone is and not only

01:38:53   that but our own platform at the time that Microsoft owned they had a mixer which was like

01:38:58   their take on Twitch didn't actually fit the accessibility requirements that the company had

01:39:03   so that was how I was able to win was I was they were like oh we have to we should live stream on

01:39:08   mixer and I was like okay so are we going to burn the captions like what are we going to do because

01:39:12   it doesn't match our our company's accessibility requirements so we could just use YouTube one but

01:39:19   but that was that was a hard thing to get over but although now like six years later no one would

01:39:25   question it right and I think even that says a lot about Apple the fact that they will live stream

01:39:29   their events there because I think you just at a certain point have to recognize how important the

01:39:34   destination is and I don't I don't think anybody at Apple is happy about it I'm sure they're not

01:39:38   but I think they also I don't think there's any real debate anymore I don't know when there was

01:39:43   I'm sure there was I'm sure there was like because none of those companies like each other I don't

01:39:47   know draw connections between them and there's some where there's sort of detente right like

01:39:56   Apple and Amazon I don't know they're not really enemies but they're also not really partners I

01:40:01   guess app supposedly maybe still uses AWS for some of the back end but I don't think you know I think

01:40:06   that's less and less it's less and less from what I understand they still use AWS and they still use

01:40:11   GCP for some things but more and more of it I'm sure is their own but no I mean those those are

01:40:16   things that are always like I work at GitHub where we are like we have to be agnostic kind of to

01:40:22   everyone although I'm sure that plenty of companies hate that they put their source code on us but

01:40:26   they're also kind of like okay well what else are we going to do with it like if we want people to

01:40:31   actually be able to access this and and share about it like it's kind of a similar situation

01:40:35   to YouTube like you kind of have to be there and it is is yeah so yeah GitHub is to source code

01:40:42   what YouTube is to video basically yeah I enjoy it because I can be like kind of I feel like I'm

01:40:48   Switzerland right like I don't have to pick a side I'm like hey we want everybody we don't care who

01:40:53   you are just push your code you host your code with us but yeah I was I watched on YouTube and

01:40:59   I was very happy with that experience and I'm glad that they are now simulcasting that like I

01:41:05   I'm sure they're not happy about it but again like good that's the better user experience decision

01:41:10   is it just me I kind of feel like maybe one of the bits it's not quite campiness and it certainly

01:41:17   wasn't a costume but I kind of feel like in my opinion Johnny Suruji is a bit of a scary dude

01:41:22   he always always and I kind of feel like they he played it up on this he was like welcome to my lab

01:41:30   yes yeah and I almost feel like it sort of played up his Israeli accent as sort of Transylvanian you

01:41:37   know actually that's a good point welcome to my underground laboratory and it's like I he has an

01:41:44   intensity always has every time he's in a keynote there's a certain intensity to him that I'm like

01:41:49   whoa dude chill out but I'm glad you're there because maybe that intensity is what's driving

01:41:56   their silicon forward I'm sure it is insane pace but it it his intensity matched the Halloween

01:42:04   spooky theme of this in a way and and his counterpart on hardware John Ternus yeah comes

01:42:09   across as like ah what a nice guy I'd love to put my arm around him and have a beer with John Ternus

01:42:14   what a swell guy I was gonna say it was a nice dichotomy there it really was kind of a great

01:42:18   trick-or-treat thing and I do have to give them credit like if you're gonna do the event

01:42:22   on a Monday night if you're gonna like lean into the dark theme like I you know like well done

01:42:28   again I think this is about as campy as Apple could go which is fine but I I didn't hate it I

01:42:35   I still think it's so weird for them to do a night event yeah I do too I I guess I I think

01:42:41   ultimately it just came down to well if we're gonna play into the Halloween theme why don't

01:42:45   we broadcast it at night too right yeah the only other thing was sorry go ahead no go ahead we're

01:42:51   at the timing like 8 p.m eastern that's one thing but I'm thinking like okay this is like

01:42:56   two o'clock three o'clock in the morning in Europe right that's the that was the only part of it that

01:43:00   was weird for me was like okay yeah it's because I'm on the west coast so for me it was fine

01:43:06   but on the east coast prime time whatever but and then I'm thinking okay so to me it really did kind

01:43:12   of strike me as okay this is a very US centric event maybe more than even any of their others

01:43:17   just because the timing was definitely not European friendly yeah yeah but on the other hand

01:43:23   Apple is so worldwide now that they can never win right so when they have when they have a 10 a.m

01:43:28   pacific uh keynote that's one eastern and that means and I just know this because I

01:43:37   do dithering with Ben Thompson it's like seven Taiwan no Taiwan is exactly 12 hours apart from

01:43:43   from the east coast right so from right except for the four months of the year when we're in

01:43:51   not in daylight savings time then it's 11 hours difference I forget I already forget which way it

01:43:56   goes but close enough it's 12 hours difference so like Ben and I usually record dithering at 8 pm

01:44:03   my time he wakes up takes his kids to school and it's 8 a.m his time but it's it's such an easy way

01:44:10   for me I'm not good at time zones I even just going from east coast to west coast I'm always

01:44:14   confused like it's like I I've done it for so many times so many years it's just three time zones it

01:44:22   or or four time zones in the U.S but I've still after all these years I'll like get a phone call

01:44:28   from my wife and I'm like you're still up and it's like yeah she'll be like it's you know it's like

01:44:33   five o'clock in California she's like it's eight o'clock I don't go to bed I'm like oh yeah that's

01:44:37   right I I still get confused but you can't win because those those keynotes aren't a good time

01:44:43   for Asia you're right to market yeah yeah you're right the year our European friends were the the

01:44:50   the people who had to suffer for this one though no for sure because it was midnight in in the UK

01:44:54   and and in 1 am in Paris so one other thing I I've mentioned this a few times recently and it seems

01:45:02   like a lot of other people haven't noticed it and for some reason it just sticks out to me but

01:45:05   at least for the the entire run of the modern pre-recorded Apple keynote for iPhones every

01:45:17   single one of them when they do the iPhone event uh Kyan Drance introduces the non-pro models

01:45:25   and it's brightly lit daytime and then and she goes first because you save the best for last

01:45:31   and then Jaws introduces the pro models and every time in those keynotes they go to nighttime and

01:45:39   they pretend it's nighttime at Apple Park and it's dark right and we're and even if Jaws is standing

01:45:46   in front of the same screen or fake screen at CGI den or green screened in in Steve Jobs theater

01:45:52   anti-rumor whatever you call that chamber up top it's dark and it's nighttime because dark is pro

01:45:59   and light is not so we've seen Apple Park at in these keynotes at nighttime before but it's only

01:46:06   and always only for the iPhone pro models so the whole having the whole event pretend to be

01:46:12   nighttime at Apple Park was new I just kind of feel like they just wanted to shake it up yeah

01:46:17   yeah I think that I think they did and I liked it I thought that it was good it was one of those

01:46:21   things that made me happy because I was like okay you know what like we've seen how you do this the

01:46:27   normal way this is actually really nice to see it done a little bit differently just because like I

01:46:32   said I miss the live events there is I really respect what they do with their pre-records

01:46:38   and I think that they do a really nice job they obviously are very highly produced

01:46:41   very exacting I do miss the the live aspect because I think there's a certain fun that

01:46:47   comes with live that you an energy that you miss but I did appreciate they're like okay

01:46:51   they're experimenting more they're able to kind of have fun I felt like the team who edited it

01:46:56   had fun like that came through and and I think that came through even like with that that lifted

01:47:01   up the entire experience here's something did you notice this or did you close your youtube

01:47:06   stream before the end I I don't even know why I was still watching but I was going waited for

01:47:11   the they don't have a lot of credits but at the end it said shot on iphone edited on mac so they

01:47:19   shot they shot that whole thing on iphones oh I missed that that's actually that's fantastic

01:47:24   it's I would not have guessed by looking at it it's like damn no I would not have guessed that

01:47:30   either that's really great actually yeah really kind of amazing and I wonder it does shooting at

01:47:37   night time help with that because you don't have to worry so much about depth of field and stuff

01:47:41   like is that going to be true going forward I wonder but it was I mean they're they're in a

01:47:46   studio environment for I'm sure a lot of that they have even when they're outdoors they've got massive

01:47:50   lights and stuff set up so I don't know how much that matters to be honest with you but but it

01:47:54   looked good it looked great yeah but that is actually amazing that it was shot on I mean that's

01:47:58   that's a big flex shot on iphone edited on mac like obviously the way that they're going to shoot

01:48:03   on an iphone is going to be different in the way most people can because again they're going to

01:48:06   have lights out the wazoo I will say one of the things sorry go on well I'm just I want to make

01:48:13   a joke shot on studio display yes there we go okay see that would be a horror film truly oh my god

01:48:20   definitely like the Blair Witch right yeah like that okay that that's good that's good yeah shout

01:48:24   out to you that's the real horror story no what I was going to say though is I don't know how much

01:48:28   video like poor case if you've done on your iphone 15 pro max but like you have to basically connect

01:48:36   like a external SSD to it if you want to get like the best frames and it's been funny because I've

01:48:42   been seeing people do that and I'm like yep this is basically the same as with any good actual

01:48:49   camera system which is a similar sort of scenario so I'm just picturing them on these mounts with

01:48:54   maybe I don't know if they had extra lenses on top or what they were doing and just you know SSDs

01:48:58   hanging off and things plugged into power and all kinds of stuff I haven't shot like that because I

01:49:04   don't do serious video so I mean I've shot video with my iphone 15 pro but I don't shoot pro raw

01:49:10   you know yeah I did it just to test it and it was good because for me it's one of those things I was

01:49:15   like I'm thinking about when I do like remote video setup stuff for youtube's things that I do

01:49:21   like actually I think the camera is now good enough that I don't have to travel with my micro

01:49:27   four thirds or whatever the format is my sony camera I don't have to travel without anymore

01:49:33   and so which is which is great I'll bet though now that you bring that up though I'll bet that

01:49:38   explains why I think this is the first keynote that they've said that about and I'll bet that's

01:49:44   why yeah because this is the first time they have iphones yeah it's yeah it's not so much that the

01:49:50   camera system and sensor is better even though they are right incrementally better it's that

01:49:54   they can shoot and I linked to stew match which is good pro lost I was like thank you for explaining

01:50:01   this to me because I had no idea but that whole explanation about shooting in that log which looks

01:50:06   off the can't off the phone looks so desaturated but that's because you're it's got all this data

01:50:13   that you can use to color it the way you want so I'll bet that's the explanation for why this is

01:50:18   the first one that they've shot on iphone because they could shoot it with the iphone 15 pro

01:50:23   with the SSD shooting and it's pro raw right or yeah or no it was pro res it's it's yeah pro res

01:50:33   pro res yeah pro raw is the still format but yeah the the pro res format and then they can color it

01:50:41   perfectly the coloring is the big deal I think honestly I think that's the biggest reason why

01:50:45   because you would previously be able to use tools like thulmuk and there are some other third-party

01:50:49   apps that would be really good but the fact that you could have it in pro res which means you could

01:50:54   natively bring it into final cut and then with the s log be able to color match it to fit what their

01:51:00   requirements would be but it's still really impressive that they did that on the iphone

01:51:04   because I had no idea I would not have expected that like I would I would have assumed that they

01:51:07   used their red systems or whatever they usually use are so one last little postscript to the

01:51:13   episode that you and I were chatting about before a little bit bittersweet matt matthew perry died

01:51:20   what two days ago as we record gut punch ran and of all things it was the first person to tell me

01:51:27   it was my son he texted the group he was like matthew perry died and it's like oh man and it's

01:51:31   like that I think it's the first time my son ever broke bad news to me and he's at college but it's

01:51:36   like he I don't know somehow you know he's he's 19 so he's obviously on his phone right all the

01:51:42   time somehow got the news like instantly but man what a gut punch I love that guy um I'd always so

01:51:49   funny link to a couple of remembrances friends was a great it's the reason people still watch it it

01:51:57   really is just a fantastic show and it's so hard to say oh well matthew perry now that he's the

01:52:02   first one to die it's like oh well he was the the linchpin of the whole show they were every single

01:52:08   one of the six characters right they were all essential yeah and you couldn't take any one of

01:52:12   them out without the the balance falling apart there was a certain that was it's part of the

01:52:18   genius of the show is they got it all the way up to six lead characters who were all essential

01:52:24   but I will say that the thing for me was that matthew perry's chandler felt the most like I

01:52:32   identified with him you know sarcasm you know he was so funny no and he really did make that role

01:52:40   his own I mean I think that it was alan stephen well who you linked to his remembrance and he did

01:52:44   point out like he didn't have a lot of lines in the pilot but some of the ones he did he nailed

01:52:49   it and that first season which is the first half of that first season I think it really the show

01:52:53   came into its own completely by the time that first season ended but the first probably like

01:52:58   six or seven episodes they're all figuring things out and all of them except for courtney cox were

01:53:03   really green like she had tons of experience and she was cast first and and I think if you were

01:53:09   going to argue like who was sort of like especially the earlier sort of the linchpin it probably would

01:53:13   be her but I think that the way that he played his role which could have been this kind of

01:53:18   douchebag kind of asshole guy who you don't really like that much he brought like a sense of

01:53:26   vulnerability and and humor and just like he was really really good I always loved chandler chandler

01:53:32   was always one of my favorite characters and and he was just you could you got the sense that a lot

01:53:37   of the humor really was not from the script but was from him and which especially that first season

01:53:43   like poor matt leblanc was not great at at first which is completely okay he got very very good

01:53:50   but like matthew perry like he seemed like a lot of his humor really was completely injected into

01:53:56   that script and it it came across that way and it was did your son watch friends because I know

01:54:01   yes yeah no he did he did the very now completely stereotypical like thing where like I don't know

01:54:08   six or seven years ago like as when he was like 13 or so yeah just binge the whole thing yeah start

01:54:14   to finish and did the did the thing that everybody my age is like oh my god I'm gonna right I'm gonna

01:54:20   kill you before you're out of the house he was like did you guys ever hear the show friends and you're

01:54:23   like I swear to god and you're like okay you're dead like I'm absolutely like like I'm giving you

01:54:27   up for the adoption even though you're 13 did we hear friends it's like on the one hand I'm so glad

01:54:33   he watched it and loved it because my wife and I both liked it I would never say it was my all-time

01:54:37   favorite show but I watched it you know everybody watched it yeah I mean how can you who didn't

01:54:42   watch it and it's like so it's so cool that it's another show yeah that we could talk about but

01:54:47   it's like did you guys ever hear of friends I think what do you tell her well no that's the thing I

01:54:51   mean it's hard to explain to people who weren't because I was I think I was like 10 or 11 when it

01:54:55   premiered and so it was my my adolescence like that it was on basically like like and then it's

01:55:01   never not been on the air right it's it's unfortunately the big bang theory is the last

01:55:06   great american sitcom in terms of the traditional sense and that's not even a great sitcom but it is

01:55:09   the last real one but friends I think is the last one that will like live on forever in in the same

01:55:15   way that things like I Love Lucy and All in the Family and things like that like lived on forever

01:55:20   like Friends is one of those that you just generationally people just discovered and just

01:55:24   doesn't matter that it was 30 years ago like it still works yeah Seinfeld is up there too and they

01:55:30   were they were on part they were almost like paired together they were part of this Thursday

01:55:33   night juggernaut on NBC but in some I liked Seinfeld better I did too I did too but but

01:55:41   but it's Friends has the heart yeah and it seems like Friends has more legs yes 25 years later

01:55:47   20 years later yeah it does well because it's more approachable I mean Seinfeld had the critical

01:55:54   acclaim and obviously it's very funny and very good and my favorite show but like but Friends

01:55:58   which came out a few years later I think is just it's a more accessible show it's a more mainstream

01:56:02   show and I think that it was a real testament to like those actors frankly and for all negotiating

01:56:09   together so right it was huge news at the time but that they stuck together and I guess by the end of

01:56:17   it I think it was pretty I think it was pretty clear by the time they got to like the we're

01:56:25   going to negotiate every year for 20 million dollars each yeah per season or whatever that

01:56:30   it was very clear I think by that time that Jennifer Aniston was the one who's to start yeah

01:56:36   I mean hindsight's 20/20 but I think it was clear at the time that she had the best

01:56:40   chance of becoming like a movie star right and did but the fact that they were just like you know

01:56:46   we're all going to take the same amount we're not going to note not one of the six of us is going to

01:56:50   nickel and dime over 20 versus 25 million or over and we're all just going to do it together

01:56:55   you're either going to sign us all for the same amount or rolled out which which worked is

01:56:59   honestly what they were going to do that for seasons they were going to cut Matt LeBlanc

01:57:03   and and David Schwimmer who had come from theater and who I think also probably recognized that

01:57:08   even though Ross and Rachel was a great through line I think he probably was smart enough to

01:57:13   recognize I don't have the same appeal like on camera or anything else as these other two guys

01:57:19   so it behooves me for basically he was the one who convinced them all to negotiate together because

01:57:24   they had different contracts that first season but after the show blew up they all worked together and

01:57:30   like they I think they even had like a strike or something like where they refused to go in and

01:57:34   Warner Brothers was pissed but I mean Warner Brothers has made more money off of that show

01:57:39   than probably any show in its entire history and he was a huge part of that and when you talk about

01:57:44   like movie success obviously Jennifer Aniston you're right like she's had a big career but

01:57:48   he was in some hits like the last nine yards and like a couple other things like he was in were

01:57:54   really really big films and very funny but you and I we were talking about Studio 60 which was

01:58:01   our favorite show it was yeah yeah and I I it warmed my heart how many people wrote to me and

01:58:07   said yes I love that show too so many people but and I do think it was so weird I won't like well

01:58:13   I will I was gonna say I'm not gonna rehash what I wrote but I will I'll just say that it was such

01:58:17   a weird show it was a like a Romana Clef about a a Saturday Night Live like show except it was in

01:58:24   LA not New York right but it's the oddest thing is it debuted the exact same year as 30 Rock which

01:58:32   was also about a Saturday Night Live like show except was a zany sitcom instead of an Aaron

01:58:39   Sorkin drama right same year on the same network NBC and I I've never never stopped thinking that

01:58:49   there wasn't room for both wasn't there wasn't and and they both hated that the other was was

01:58:55   right like Aaron Sorkin was very shitty frankly about 30 Rock like he was he was like he and the

01:59:01   press the time like he kind of like thought that they were under beneath him and and I think

01:59:07   everybody at the time because you know this is obviously coming off the success of of the West

01:59:10   Wing and this is his big kind of comeback because he was let go of the West Wing because it was

01:59:15   getting caught in the airport with drugs and so this was kind of his comeback thing and the West

01:59:19   Wing was obviously this massive amazing show and huge hit for NBC and all we knew about Tina Fey

01:59:25   was she was a head writer on SNL and and she was funny in those sketches but this is 2006 so like

01:59:30   she hasn't done the Sarah Palin thing yet right like so it was well and and the other thing about

01:59:35   30 Rock I don't think there was I don't I can't recall a show that was like 30 Rock no had it had

01:59:41   such a different it did I mean it was a little bit like I would say it got a lot of its inspiration

01:59:48   from Larry Sanders but it was oh yeah right right and faster that we asked him yeah that's the thing

01:59:54   that's insane about 30 I mean again we're talking about Matthew Perry in the studio but the thing

01:59:58   about 30 Rock is the jokes per minute so is so much sane it's just it's even to pack that many

02:00:06   bad jokes that tightly would be difficult let alone good jokes and it was funny but they just

02:00:12   and it took off and it resonated and I kind of feel like it squeezed studio 60 and then

02:00:18   and then my other thought is and again this is truly with the benefit of hindsight but

02:00:24   22 episodes in a year of an hour-long drama which used to be the standard standard it isn't

02:00:31   sustainable when you're aiming at a much more cinematic writing quality you just that there's

02:00:39   a reason why none of today's prestige hour-long dramas do 20 episodes 10 is a lot most of them

02:00:47   like eight and even most of the ones that are eight my number one complaint about almost every

02:00:53   single series I watch these days is I get to the end of the eight series eight series season and

02:00:59   I think that could have been like four episodes right like it just it would have been tighter and

02:01:04   it just better at four 22 was a lot and there were there were some some dead spots in the middle of

02:01:10   that well and I know and and they the hard thing they had to work with too and they dropped a

02:01:15   little bit of it but they were trying to be topical and they were trying to infuse the parts

02:01:18   of the show itself into it which again with 22 episodes like that's hard 30 rock had that same

02:01:24   issue a little bit and they quickly dropped that where they were like we're just going to be a

02:01:28   cartoon which was the perfect approach right trying to kind of make it topical but they'd

02:01:33   come off of the the people behind it obviously Aaron Sorkin but Thomas Schlame he did the West

02:01:37   Wing and he's also on ER which both of those were shows that did I mean ER some some seasons had 26

02:01:43   episodes and ER was a really insane show because the amount of like steady cam and other stuff

02:01:50   yeah like talk about fast-paced show like I don't even know how they did that I really don't but

02:01:55   Studio 60 I think that I mean I it's one of those that's it was funny I was talking about this on

02:02:01   Twitter a couple weeks ago with my friend Ben Dreyfus who was making some sort of comment

02:02:07   about it and and I I contend like I I thought Matt Perry was great I still think the problem

02:02:13   with that show in addition to going up against 30 rock and probably trying to do all that it did

02:02:18   I think if they'd made the emotional center not Matthew Perry and Sarah Paulson but if they'd

02:02:24   really focused on the the two stars who actually had chemistry which were Bradley Whitford and

02:02:28   Amanda Peet I think it would have maybe been a little bit better but I watched the pilot today

02:02:34   in advance of this yeah it holds up it's one of those things that mean way too many network

02:02:39   references which I remember at the time I was like yes congratulations you've seen network and you

02:02:44   and you've mentioned patty shayevsky 500 times and I was like in film school so for me to read

02:02:49   as hell and I'm not going to take exactly exactly it was very much reminiscent of that but you know

02:02:54   they had what's-his-face Judd Hirsch as as the mad as hell kind of thing but I re-watched that pilot

02:03:00   and it was good and Matthew Perry was very very good in it yeah and and that was a show that it's

02:03:06   it's frustrating that it was shot on film the broadcast is is in letterbox but it's only

02:03:13   available in SD like yeah it's very frustrating everywhere yeah it's it's it you can buy it on

02:03:19   itunes you can buy it from amazon but it's only an sd and it I that's what's so it get you're

02:03:24   exactly right it's shot on film so they could remaster it if they had to oh yeah it wouldn't

02:03:29   even be hard like they have the master right there and let's just be that like you and I and a number

02:03:34   of your readers who emailed you in about it like were the only people who watched it it's one of

02:03:39   those shows actually it's amazing they got 22 episodes because they'd given it a full order

02:03:43   from what I recall really early on but the ratings were not there and I think it aired on Tuesdays I

02:03:48   want to say I don't remember what day it aired now maybe it was 30 maybe it was 30 rock it was on

02:03:51   Tuesdays but they were on different nights and I watched it I watched it the whole time like I

02:03:57   watched the entire thing because I'm a huge Aaron Sorkin fan but he was really good on that and and

02:04:02   it was all the Friends actors had a hard time transitioning into other tv roles after Friends

02:04:11   but although I pointed this out to you in our text message earlier today what's interesting to me when

02:04:17   I think about 30 rock 30 rock studio 60 is that the modern corollary for it is the morning show on

02:04:25   Apple TV yeah and and and this season it's gone full soap which I love I love everything they've

02:04:31   done with it I'm like yes embrace the soap of it all but it is one of those things where I was kind

02:04:35   of thinking about it especially after I watched the pilot I was like yeah this is completely this

02:04:39   was 15 16 years ahead of its time for what the morning show and which also stars as Friends star

02:04:46   yeah it's kind of trying to do comes full circle I have to say I never thought of that until you said

02:04:51   it in our text message when we were setting up this broadcast but I was like as soon as you said

02:04:55   it I was like oh my god yeah it feels like the same cinematic universe absolutely feels like

02:04:59   they could mention studio 60 is they could yeah they're both the same network right like it's like

02:05:05   like they're they're both in it and both of them are it's funny are sort of being a riff on on NBC

02:05:10   I always I always think and I've noticed this for a long time I think people underestimate comedy in

02:05:15   every regard I think because they think ah comedy means jokes jokes aren't serious so it's all just

02:05:20   fluff and it's like all comedy is the equivalent of I don't know the Kathy comic strip right or

02:05:27   Garfield right it's not but I think comedy it is so difficult to do well and I think there are so

02:05:37   many cases of actors and actresses who become known for a comedic role and then they do something

02:05:45   dramatic and everybody's like wow this person who I only thought was an idiot clown who did jokes is

02:05:53   actually a good actor Robin Williams is oh yeah example right maybe the canonical example but

02:05:58   you know like when Steve Martin does a serious yeah role he's he's so good and I thought Matthew

02:06:04   Perry had that going and it to me it's like comedy is so hard and timing is so essential right the

02:06:10   exact same actor with the same camera angle and the same lighting and if you deliver the line with

02:06:16   the wrong timing it's not funny at all and if you deliver it with the perfect timing it's hilarious

02:06:22   and that timing even though it has nothing to do with jokes you translate it to drama and it's

02:06:29   like man that is acting and Matthew Perry had it and it's very sad and I we should definitely

02:06:35   mention you know he obviously struggled with addiction to all sorts of stuff really good his

02:06:40   book booze yeah everything from booze to pills to everything in between I didn't read anything about

02:06:47   it but I mean I guess drowning in his pool probably was on something I don't know they

02:06:52   they don't know what they think apparently he'd been playing pickleball and he came back and then

02:06:56   he got in like the jacuzzi so corner hasn't come back with a report yet but it would make sense

02:07:02   they didn't find any like illicit substances there but it would make sense that potentially because

02:07:07   of other stuff you've done to his body and whatnot that he had a heart attack that's what yeah maybe

02:07:11   it's possible too right so even if he wasn't on something when he died if he wasn't drunk or on

02:07:15   pills or something it's just the ravaging of his body I mean and to be to be honest I mean you

02:07:21   could see it on his face yeah he looked older than 54 I mean he did but man oh man the guy was so

02:07:27   generous I did not read his book Amy did my wife did it's a really good book the audible version

02:07:32   which he reads is also good and and I I encourage people to listen to that it's it's I've upped it

02:07:39   to near I want to now I want to read it I'm sorry Matthew Perry's memory that now I want to read your

02:07:46   book because you died but I just I can't say enough good things about his and so many people

02:07:51   now that he's dead have said all these surprising stories about his his remarkable generosity and he

02:07:57   set up like I used his wealth to create like a halfway house for for just complete strangers to

02:08:03   help them get through their own struggles with whatever addictions they had just genuine

02:08:08   heartfelt nothing but trying to help other people with similar problems just seemed like

02:08:12   you can't find a single person saying anything other than that that he was just a

02:08:17   remarkably good talented person who just struggled with this problem his whole life

02:08:24   shame for sure anyway glad to hear you glad but also not surprised at all to hear you were a big

02:08:32   fan I was yeah I was a big huge studio 60 fan and because I loved Aaron Sorkin I mean look it

02:08:38   first night was the better show like that's and and of the two Keith O'Rourke men shows that

02:08:42   Aaron Sorkin has just made that's also the best one although I I didn't hate the newsroom a lot

02:08:47   of people did but I I didn't but but I'd say I can watch it I could watch Aaron Sorkin right about

02:08:53   I agree watching paint dry on the wall no watch it totally I just say ah this is a crummy Aaron

02:08:58   Sorkin show when's the next episode right exactly exactly but no but studio 60 like I said I was

02:09:03   really glad that I watched the pilot earlier today and and I was it was nice to see him it was also

02:09:08   really weird to see some of the people who were in it like most notably Sarah Paulson who yeah yeah

02:09:13   really yeah who's like like massive massive new success now but I think for a lot of people like

02:09:20   that was that was certainly my first exposure to her I think but yeah people people who've been on

02:09:25   like Lucy Davis who was on studio 60 wrote like a really nice kind of moments of him on

02:09:32   Instagram which and you shared some of the funny things that that with me I think like

02:09:37   him telling a story on Graham Norton but he's just a really good actor really funny and and

02:09:42   somebody that I think because he was our friend right like that's why I think this is weird this

02:09:46   is one of those weird moments where it in it hits like every generation but it's like this felt like

02:09:52   when Kobe died this was like one of those moments for me I was like that that like I texted my

02:09:56   friends the same way I did when when Kobe Bryant died like it was the exact same sort of thing and

02:10:01   through those rare people that you don't know anything about them other than their personal

02:10:05   struggles and whatnot and what you see on screen but that are just I don't know they're they're

02:10:10   people that we all they were in our homes every day yeah well thank you for joining me on short

02:10:17   notice for a quick turnaround show always good to hear from you Christina I will what should we

02:10:23   shout out where should we point to people oh so go to githubuniverse.com because that's taking

02:10:28   place next week and I'm going to be one of the hosts of that event and so you can check that

02:10:33   out that's going to be on the 8th and the 9th next week and actually there is going to be some

02:10:37   Mac stuff that we talk about that if people are interested in how we do things like doing our our

02:10:43   Mac OS hosted runners there's a there's a little video that's going to happen on one of those days

02:10:49   I think on day two that features yours truly and some very cool data center stuff with Macs that's

02:10:54   that's me giving just a little bit of a well then I'm I am really glad I asked you I will also thank

02:11:02   our sponsors Squarespace our good friends and our new sponsor nuts.com where you can get all sorts

02:11:10   of good snack foods thanks to them and break a leg next week I look forward to seeing it yeah thank