484: Space Grayer


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   Unreal AFM, this is Upgrade, Episode 484 for October 31st, Halloween, the spookiest episode of the year.

00:00:20   This episode is brought to you by Lada, Delete Me Notion, and vitally I am the man previously known as Mike Hurley.

00:00:29   And I am joined by the spookiest co-host of all, Jason Snell.

00:00:34   484!

00:00:37   [Laughter]

00:00:40   Because it's spooky for no reason, as we have learned over the last 24 hours that there is absolutely zero point for it.

00:00:49   But we'll get to that shortly. This is your regularly scheduled program.

00:00:53   I have a Snell Talk question for you, Jason Snell, that comes from Jimmy, who wants to know Jason.

00:00:59   Did you write the Six Colors articles about the Apple event last night from your cold garage, or from Studio B?

00:01:06   And also, what tea were you drinking to be so caffeinated to write so much?

00:01:12   Well Jimmy, I got news for you. Neither.

00:01:17   I wrote my article about the Apple event last night, yesterday, at a hotel room in New York City.

00:01:28   And while waiting for my flight at the Newark Airport.

00:01:33   And at the Newark Airport, I was drinking a Diet Mountain Dew.

00:01:37   And then I flew home, and the event happened while I was on an airplane.

00:01:42   True story revealed here.

00:01:44   So you had the opportunity to go to a place in New York and have some conversations and take a look at some products.

00:01:53   Apple-type people.

00:01:55   The event that we're talking about. We had a selection of people ask questions along this line.

00:02:00   And it is also very important to work note, because people ask, this all happened after draft stuff.

00:02:06   There was no information known before the draft.

00:02:09   Yes, exactly.

00:02:11   There you go. So we will be talking, so when we talk about this stuff today,

00:02:15   understand that Jason has a bit more information than your average, because he's seen it.

00:02:19   He's actually been there, and you've actually seen, touched some aspect used.

00:02:25   I've actually tried to get my fingerprints on the thing that has the reduced fingerprints.

00:02:30   So you essentially had like a hands-on area, kind of vibey thing, right?

00:02:35   Is probably the best way to put it?

00:02:37   Well, I would say it's a briefing. I had a product briefing.

00:02:42   Yeah, even better.

00:02:44   We were shown the products and allowed to get our hands on them and talk to Apple representatives

00:02:50   in a couple of different locations in the venue and got the details.

00:02:56   Got to ask some questions, got to sometimes get some answers that were sometimes...

00:03:01   I asked some questions I got very satisfying answers from, and others that they're not going

00:03:06   to talk about, and I knew they were not going to talk about it, but sometimes you got to ask.

00:03:11   So this was actually a pretty big news. Oh, by the way, if you'd like to send in a

00:03:15   snow talk question of your own, it's very simple. Just go to upgradefeedback.com,

00:03:19   and you can send one in to help us start a future episode. Thank you, Jimmy, for your question.

00:03:23   You were set up, Jimmy. You were set up there by Mike.

00:03:26   So I was going to say it's been actually a pretty big news week,

00:03:31   and I just wanted to make a little programming note. So next week's episode, we'll be talking

00:03:36   about Apple's quarterly results. And my plan is that hopefully we'll be able to talk about all

00:03:40   the stuff that came out in the 17.2 beta, because there was actually quite a lot of stuff, including

00:03:45   the journaling app and tap backs, and I want to talk about all of that. But obviously we don't

00:03:50   have the space for that today, but that will hopefully form part of next week's episode.

00:03:55   We do have to talk about the draft results, though. That's pretty important.

00:04:02   We do. We did badly. You won on a tie break.

00:04:08   I was talking to Adina about this last night, because she wanted to know how I'd done in the

00:04:12   draft. And basically the way that I look at what happened in this draft is essentially the result

00:04:21   of the ideal, right? Like the ideal draft scenario is kind of what happened, which is that we were

00:04:31   operating on our own knowledge, our own guesses and rumors that have been occurring for a while.

00:04:41   And if we would have read Mark Gurman's report, half of the things that we picked would not have

00:04:45   been in the draft. And I would say there was still some mystery, but I would say if we had done

00:04:51   eight picks instead of four, we would have gotten a winner, right? Because we would have been forced

00:04:58   to pick more esoteric things, and some of those would have hit and missed. But it was a mini draft,

00:05:03   and so we didn't. And then the big moment, and I actually thought about it about a minute after

00:05:07   I made my selection, is you picked a 13-inch MacBook Pro thing. And I thought to myself,

00:05:12   "Oh, geez, I think there will be a 13." And so I picked also a 13-inch MacBook Pro thing. We,

00:05:17   in fact, got somebody on Mastodon who was like, "That doesn't seem fair to Jason." It's like,

00:05:20   "Look, I did it to myself, but I decided that I was going to try to block you, and that if you

00:05:26   got a point for the 13-inch MacBook Pro, I was going to too." And a minute later, I'm like,

00:05:31   "Why did I do that? I'm not sure there's going to be a 13-inch MacBook Pro." But it was too late.

00:05:35   - We were very excited about it. - And that was a fatal error.

00:05:38   Yeah, my bathroom, my shower thoughts. Yeah, yeah. Things you think of in the shower. Well,

00:05:43   I thought the next day in the shower, that was a bad idea.

00:05:45   - Well, we'll talk about it, but I actually think you were on the right lines, but just

00:05:49   in a way that seemed unrealistic. - They were more bold.

00:05:52   - Yes. - Yeah, they were more bold

00:05:53   than I expected. - Draft results are as follows. Jason

00:05:56   scored two points for the 24-inch iMac introduced and 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro models

00:06:01   introduced. There was no 13-inch MacBook Pro, so no longer has touch bar mag safe. There is no

00:06:08   product anymore. There is an element of a way that pic could have been written that could have

00:06:13   been correct, right? If you had just been like the entry-level MacBook Pro. Now we're getting into

00:06:18   Ricky's territory with working. - It's ridiculous, yeah.

00:06:24   - I did not score for peripherals updated of USB-C. I did not score for a new 13-inch MacBook Pro.

00:06:52   I did score for the iMacs have the same colors. I was frantically checking that while the video

00:06:57   was occurring last night. Neither of us scored picks for our game demo or Creative Professional

00:07:04   Testimonials. There were elements of these things, but not in the ways in which we had

00:07:10   picked for them. - They showed games,

00:07:12   but they didn't have a person from a game studio. - And they had an ad where people were showing,

00:07:20   using these things, but they were actors, I think, in a lot of instances.

00:07:24   - That doesn't count. - And so we ended up tied.

00:07:28   - Yeah, and the tiebreaker was, I set it a little too low. The event was just a few seconds,

00:07:34   I believe over 30 minutes long. So if I had set it at 30, which was my initial thought,

00:07:40   you still would have gotten it, but I set it even lower than that. So I would have had to set it at

00:07:44   31 for you to, and you still would have taken me over and I would have won, but it's fine.

00:07:49   A lot of our draft results, if you look back, have been ties. An awful lot of them.

00:07:54   - That's why we had the tiebreaker. - That's why we have to have the tiebreaker.

00:07:57   Anyway, congratulations again. This year's full sweep continues for Mike.

00:08:02   - So this has been the year of Mike when it comes to the draft.

00:08:07   - Yeah, that turns out that was your annual theme.

00:08:09   - Mm-hmm. The year of the draft, who could have known?

00:08:13   I wanted to do some kind of bigger thoughts about the event itself. I kind of alluded to it a little

00:08:21   bit in my weird opening. I feel like the result of the question of why are they doing this in

00:08:29   the evening was not answered, which I think was the most likely thing. There was no reason,

00:08:36   it seemed like. - Halloween.

00:08:37   - But even then, they didn't need to do the Halloween theme because they kind of didn't

00:08:43   really lean into it enough in my opinion. It was at night, there were bats, and Johnny

00:08:49   Suruji said, "Welcome to my lab." Outside of that, I feel like if you're gonna do this,

00:08:57   do it, and I don't really feel like they did. I know that when Tim was walking,

00:09:03   there was a werewolf sound that was like, "Oh, excellent." And then it was just Tim Cook,

00:09:07   and he was just excited to say, "Good evening," which he also didn't do in a voice.

00:09:12   If you're gonna do it, do it. Otherwise, don't ruin everybody's schedules.

00:09:17   - I don't know. I don't know. I had thought that maybe we would understand it all

00:09:22   in the cold light of day today. It didn't happen. I think the answer is that somebody sold them on

00:09:29   Halloween theme, and they said, "Okay," and then they put it into their regular content

00:09:34   engine and all the Halloween-y-ness got, almost all of it got ironed back out.

00:09:38   - Yes, that there were presenters. Every presenter had a costume, and then they're like,

00:09:42   "Right, I'm not wearing this." And then by the end of it, all we ended up with was,

00:09:48   "It happens at night." And the idea, like some people are saying in the Discord,

00:09:54   pro stuff happens at night, but they do this for the iPhone too. They just turn all the lights off,

00:10:00   and they have Greg Joswiak stand outside at night. It doesn't need to be at night.

00:10:07   I just want to petition. - He's on the night shift.

00:10:08   - I don't want that to happen again, but you know.

00:10:11   - That's my theory about Josw is Josw just works the night shift.

00:10:14   - He does. Someone has to.

00:10:15   - Tim signs out, and Josw signs in, and they meet in the lobby of Cafe Max, and Tim says,

00:10:22   "Even in Josw?" And Josw says, "Even in Tim?" And then they pass, and then Josw is in charge at

00:10:27   night for the night workers. - So while I don't agree with

00:10:31   the evening event, I do agree with this being an event. I was seeing a lot of people on Mastodon,

00:10:35   especially being like, "Oh, what was the point of it?" This felt like something to me,

00:10:40   the whole thing, we're going to talk about all of it, obviously, worthy of there being a video.

00:10:45   - I don't understand people sometimes, Mike. I mean, I think the truth is that people have

00:10:51   unreasonable expectations, and they complain that things aren't events. They complain that things

00:10:58   are events. They complain that events are too long and boring and padded. They complain that

00:11:03   events are too short and too packed with information and not long enough. People don't

00:11:07   know what they want. I'll tell you this. Apple introduced its entire M3 chip architecture.

00:11:14   That's not a press release. That's it. That's all you need to know. And if you're thinking about

00:11:20   the products, okay, MacBook Pro, super important product in certain product categories. But if you

00:11:25   don't want to think about that, and the iMac is nice, sure, think of it this way. Those products

00:11:30   are the vessels used to launch M3, M3 Pro, M3 Macs. And that's what this event was about. And that's

00:11:38   super important to Apple. It sets the stage for the next year plus of the Mac, which is also very

00:11:43   important. Let's them brag. Let's them boast about their three nanometer process. There's a lot of

00:11:48   stuff going on here. That's why this event exists. It's not a hard one at all. I did, at one point,

00:11:56   I think I put this in my story. At one point, the phrase came out that was, "It's the M3 Pro with

00:12:03   MacBook Pro." - Yeah, that was in your conclusion. Like you kind of mentioned that. - It's not quite

00:12:09   right, but yet it is kind of what this is, right? It's like, this is actually, it's the chips with

00:12:15   a computer attached. 'Cause that's, again, in the end, they're launching products, but what they're

00:12:20   really doing is launching their whole Mac chip line. And that's worth an event. Bottom line.

00:12:26   - I'm just absolutely gonna double back on something I meant to mention a second ago,

00:12:31   which in regards to the gaming, when we're talking about the draft, this is just a complete aside.

00:12:36   I was very surprised and kind of pleased with the fact that the game that they did choose to feature

00:12:44   was Baldur's Gate 3, which is one of the Game of the Year contenders this year. And it's just super

00:12:51   surprising, and maybe this is a sign of the times, that a current Game of the Year contender is

00:12:57   running on a Mac. Like, I've been playing it on my MacBook Air. Now it's nowhere near as good as when

00:13:03   I play it on my gaming PC, but it runs. And like, it would run even better on these new M3 machines,

00:13:09   obviously, especially on the bigger ones, so the bigger graphics chips. And I genuinely hope that

00:13:15   this is the start of that. And also, as James is pointing out, it's not in the absolute, this is

00:13:21   on Steam. So like, the way you get Baldur's Gate 3 is you need to get Steam first. And so I just

00:13:26   thought that that was, I'm always looking for these signs that Apple is paying attention to

00:13:31   gaming. And the fact that they chose Baldur's Gate 3 and not Resident Evil again, especially

00:13:38   because Resident Evil came out yesterday on the iPhone, right? So like, the fact that they chose

00:13:44   to show Baldur's Gate, that is a good sign for me of like, they're paying attention. So just a random

00:13:51   aside on gaming that I wanted to mention there, because we don't come up with it again. Alright,

00:13:55   but I agree with you. People, I think that the issue with this stuff is like, the people that

00:14:00   are complaining are probably not the same people all the time, so you just got each camp complaining.

00:14:05   But I just think this was the right way to do it. They spent time talking about it. Press release

00:14:08   wouldn't have given it the justice. Just go for it. Last thing I wanted to mention, I spotted this

00:14:13   at the end and then didn't really think much of it and then saw a lot of people talking about it,

00:14:18   that the event was shot on an iPhone and edited on a Mac. And I found a couple of posts on threads,

00:14:23   one from Tyler Stallman and then a couple from Halide, where I'm assuming that Apple PR gave

00:14:29   these creators and developers imagery that shows how they produced the event. And it is awesome and

00:14:38   hilarious to look at the size of the equipment that these iPhones were put into. Like these huge

00:14:46   camera arms and rigs and all this lighting and stuff. It's very funny. But I think that this is

00:14:53   kind of incredible that they did it, even though they did it with all of the help that they had.

00:15:00   The fact that they could shoot that event on an iPhone and you would not have noticed,

00:15:06   it's pretty cool. - Yeah, I think that's great. And the point is, look, the point is not,

00:15:12   hey, everybody, you can just hold an iPhone. Of course they're using professional everything.

00:15:18   And of course there's a lot of CGI going on here too. But the point is that they're using

00:15:23   the image capturing itself is on the iPhone and that is good enough to generate that output.

00:15:29   That's the point. And yeah, good for them. - Also one of the shots from the Halide thing,

00:15:35   which everybody sent to me in the Discord, apparently there was a video that now has

00:15:38   disappeared where this stuff came from, which is weird and interesting. It was on Apple's YouTube

00:15:43   channel, but not anymore. I don't know why they did that. But there's a shot of from behind Tim

00:15:50   Cook showing the crew, there is so many people, so many people there. There must be like 50 people,

00:15:58   60 people, maybe more that you can kind of make out in the, I don't know what you'd call it.

00:16:05   Watching Tim Cook do the thing, I guess this is from people from all over the place,

00:16:09   kind of fascinating. - Yeah, well, I don't know if you've seen it because it's in sports in America,

00:16:15   but there's the Apple ad with the Olivia Rodrigo video that is shot on iPhone 15.

00:16:22   And it's the same thing with the same kind of rigs. And it's like, I believe it's her real video,

00:16:29   but the version of it that's in the Apple ad also shows them shooting it using these similar kind of

00:16:36   rigs in an iPhone 15. And this is clearly part of their marketing messages. The iPhone 15, again,

00:16:41   yeah, you can use it to shoot a music video or an Apple thing, but the point is that even like this

00:16:49   level of professional video, you can't tell that it was shot on an iPhone because the iPhone

00:16:54   video is that good at this point. That's the point. - I hope that this little behind the scenes

00:16:59   video pops up again, because I would like to see more about it. I just think it's kind of cool

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00:18:51   So let's start by talking about the M3 family of chips. Apple will use the word family a lot in the

00:19:02   press releases and stuff like that. So I think that's like a good way to talk about them. The

00:19:08   majority of the family introduced at once, I guess all that is left would be the ultra chip, right?

00:19:14   Which is probably just two maxes connected. So fundamentally not really a new chip, just a new

00:19:21   I don't know, collection of a pair of chips, but it's gonna be two existing M3 maxes almost certainly.

00:19:28   Do you have any kind of feeling about why you think they chose to do it this way? Here's the whole

00:19:34   thing. Here's all the M3. It's a good question. I think that from a marketing standpoint, I think

00:19:42   it's actually stronger to go out with your whole line than to go out with your weakest product,

00:19:47   right? We've reached the point now where you can impress, like the M1 impressed us, but the pro

00:19:55   and the max are where you really see them at their best. And at this point you come out with the M3

00:20:01   and we're all gonna be like, okay, what's the pro and max. So I think there's a marketing argument

00:20:06   here, but I think the truth is they were already at the same time. I think the truth is they were

00:20:10   all going into production on this new three nanometer process and are all available now.

00:20:16   And so they're gonna launch them now. I do think it comes down to that, that they're ready now.

00:20:22   And so they're gonna launch them now. And seriously, I'm sure that they're deciding

00:20:27   what products they go in based on the volumes that they can manage. I think that the reason that it's

00:20:31   an iMac and a low-end MacBook Pro and not a MacBook Air is that the MacBook Air sells a lot

00:20:37   of volume. Although the low-end MacBook Pro may be too, but the way they've done it, and we'll get to

00:20:41   that, we'll move the volume around and won't be like the old 13-inch MacBook Pro, which was their

00:20:46   second best-selling computer. So I think they chose these vessels carefully in a way. Like the iMac,

00:20:56   it had gone a long time since an update, so why not? And then on the MacBook Pro side, clearly

00:21:02   their strategy is to use all three. This is the first time that Apple has sold what we will call

00:21:08   one computer that comes in different configurations using all three of the Apple Silicon chips.

00:21:13   No computer has had that before. Interesting. But to do that and have that strategy,

00:21:18   you kind of need to have all of them come out at once. So I think it worked out this way,

00:21:26   and it probably has something to do with chip production, that they were all available now,

00:21:29   rather than them sort of like, "Ah, finally we got the M3 off the assembly line. We can get to the

00:21:34   M3 Pro." I don't think that was how it worked this time. Yeah, I will say I personally,

00:21:40   I like this strategy of doing it in one go, rather than the way they've done it previously,

00:21:48   where it's like, "Here's the M3, and it's going to go in this." And then, you know,

00:21:53   just from our perspective of just working out what the ramifications are for any of these product

00:21:58   releases. I think it is, and it will be more helpful and interesting to see reviews and

00:22:04   benchmarks of all of them at the same time, rather than like, "We get the M3, and then we have to try

00:22:10   and extrapolate what we think that might mean for the M3 Pro a little later on down the line."

00:22:14   I'm happy that we will see the entire line all in one go. I also just think from a product release

00:22:21   standpoint, I think that there is just, it makes sense to do this, to have multiple products at

00:22:26   once that are receiving these chips. I also really do like the idea that, and I hope that we'll see

00:22:33   more of this in the future, way more flexibility for what chip can go inside of a machine, right?

00:22:40   Like that 14-inch MacBook Pro is very versatile. It's the most versatile machine that Apple has

00:22:47   shipped under Apple Silicon, right? That like, it can house all three, which when it comes down to

00:22:54   it are vastly different from each other from a power perspective. And this one machine has been

00:23:00   designed and built to be able to fit from the lowest to the nearly highest end. I would love

00:23:09   one day for there to be a laptop that will take all four, like that would be cool, right? They do

00:23:15   a MacBook Pro that could take an ultra, but I don't know if they would ever do that. That would

00:23:19   just be kind of fun. Do you think that this is likely to occur again in the future, that they

00:23:25   would do it this way? I mean, I do hope so, but do you think it's possible? Yeah, I think it's going

00:23:31   to come down to production and details of production, but I think that this is the way

00:23:36   I think they would prefer to do it, is do an unveiling of the new chip family.

00:23:39   And we'll just have to see how that goes. It tells a better story, I think, from their perspective.

00:23:45   It does, but again, if you're in a situation where you have the M4 and the M4 Pro and the M4

00:23:50   Macs are not going to be ready, I think they're not going to stop and not introduce an M4 Mac,

00:23:56   right? I think that they will still do it, but this feels like a better approach because it lets

00:24:03   them tell the whole story at once. So these are three nanometer chips. There was a lot of

00:24:08   questions. We were getting quite a lot of follow-up and people writing in to us because we were

00:24:13   assuming it was going to be three nanometers, but they were saying, "Oh, but it'll be based

00:24:17   on the previous, the A16 chip, not the A17 chip." Well, ha-ha, it was three nanometers.

00:24:23   Yeah, here's what you need to know is the A series is on an annual cycle and the M series is on an

00:24:29   18-month cycle and we're in number three, so your choice is either to go back a year or you have now

00:24:35   synced up again to the fourth chip. And so I think that's exactly what we've gotten is M1 was A14,

00:24:41   M2 was A15, M3 is A17, A16, forget about it. To me, it just seemed pretty simple. The fact that

00:24:48   they said the words three nanometer when they introduced the iPhone to me just said that was

00:24:52   what it was going to be for the Mac. Yeah. It wasn't necessary to talk about three nanometers

00:24:57   with the iPhone. Like it kind of just wasn't. And I feel like you wouldn't, I wouldn't, if I was them,

00:25:03   want to talk about that so specifically and then can't put it in my computers. It's also just

00:25:09   boasting. I mean, and it's bragging, right? We're like, we're the first, they said we're the first

00:25:14   three nanometer chip in a phone and now it's our first three nanometer chip in a computer. That's,

00:25:18   they get to brag about that because they've got their deal with TSMC and they feel like they are

00:25:22   out on the cutting edge of chip design for these devices and you know, you got to brag about that.

00:25:28   That's good, that's good marketing. So the three nanometer process allows for them to get more

00:25:34   speed increases. I'm really intrigued about how this continues over time because they keep making

00:25:41   these chips faster but like, is that something you can keep doing forever? Like I wonder when they're

00:25:48   going to start to hit some walls of that but they haven't this time. So I'm going to give you some

00:25:53   info here. Apple is saying that the efficiency cause on the M3 family of chips is 50% faster than

00:26:00   the M1 and 30% faster than the M2. The performance cores are 30% faster than the M1 and 15% faster

00:26:08   than the M2 and the neural engine is 60% faster than the M1 and 15% faster than the M2. And as you

00:26:16   put in your article, the proof will come in the testing, not the press releases. Those are stats

00:26:21   from the press release but basically that doesn't really tell you too much about what it's going to

00:26:26   do for your work load or your use case just to say that like the capability is there in these machines

00:26:33   to be faster. Right, I think a 15% increment over generation is pretty reasonable and that seems to

00:26:39   be what they've gone here. This is, and they're comparing it to M1 which adds some confusion but

00:26:44   at the same time, cause it's like right, as somebody chronicling sort of like what change

00:26:49   in the Apple chips you want to detail it based on like the last generation. But the truth is that in

00:26:58   terms of upgrades, people are coming more likely coming from M1 and Intel. And so you want to do

00:27:06   those comparisons, but it also makes bigger numbers which makes Apple feel better. Whereas we are all

00:27:11   kind of focused on M2 just because that tells a different, not for the purpose of upgraders of

00:27:17   products, but for the purpose of kind of telling the story of how this chip family progresses over

00:27:24   the previous one. So we'll have to see. Remember these are all up to whatever percent faster and

00:27:30   what is that up to means it's from what zero or slower to faster like, and it will entirely depend

00:27:36   on seeing these in real context and not in Apple's. I've said this before, I'll say it again. Apple's

00:27:44   performance marketing is based on real numbers. In fact, the performance marketing is people I know

00:27:48   who used to work in Mac world. They're in that group, like they're real numbers, but it is

00:27:54   marketing. And so they're going to pick the good numbers, but they're not fake numbers. They're

00:27:58   real numbers. It's just that you're taking their word for it and they're selling you something. So

00:28:03   you can't take their word for it. We have to check. And so we will. - As a community of testing,

00:28:08   people will get the numbers. I think from a presentation perspective, I agree that it is

00:28:13   best for Apple to talk about the M1 and Intel. I don't think it is that helpful for them when

00:28:19   marketing the product is to compare it to last year for the Mac. - Yeah, I'd say it's when you're

00:28:25   talking about chips, I care more about last year. When you're talking about products. - We do.

00:28:31   - Right. Well, yeah, but I'm saying regular consumers don't care about chips, right? When

00:28:36   you're marketing the product, your product claims compared to older models is a stronger argument.

00:28:42   But when you're just talking about the chips, I don't accept the argument that like, well,

00:28:46   regular people, because regular people don't care about the chips. - No, and it's good that we get,

00:28:49   if they give us information, we get the information. But I think that from a marketing

00:28:53   perspective, it would be confusing if they gave two different sets of speed increases during the

00:28:58   same presentation, right? Like if they want to compare the MacBook Pro to the M1 MacBook Pro,

00:29:05   that's going to be one set of statistics. And if they compare the M3 to the M2, it's another set

00:29:09   of statistics, and I think it's a little bit much. But they give us the information for as much as

00:29:13   they're going to give it, right? Like we have the numbers, but now it's about actually putting them

00:29:18   to the test. - Sure, and what they've chosen to do with the chips is put them in the context of M1

00:29:23   and M2, so it's the march of Apple Silicon progression. In the individual product areas,

00:29:28   they talk about Intel. - Yeah. - Because there you've got a bunch of upgraders coming from Intel,

00:29:33   and so the Intel numbers are relevant there. They didn't do that in the chip area because

00:29:37   that's not the story they're telling. They're really just telling about the Apple Silicon

00:29:40   chips getting faster. They leave the Intel comparisons to the individual product categories.

00:29:46   - So the GPU also got a bunch of time. They've put more features into Apple's graphics processing

00:29:54   pipeline, so they now have hardware accelerated mesh and ray tracing, so mesh shading and ray

00:30:00   tracing. - Right, both of which are in the iPhone Pro chip. - So we expected it here. This is like

00:30:05   an expectation that they were gonna do this, but they also introduced something called dynamic

00:30:09   caching. My simplified way of explaining this is it's all about how memory is being allocated

00:30:15   to the GPU from the system. - Yeah, you're simplifying something that I simplified from

00:30:19   somebody who's very smart who told me about this that I'm not supposed to talk about because it's

00:30:23   all on background, but somebody very smart who might work at Apple, explain to me a little bit

00:30:30   more about this. Anyway, so let me try to explain it again. Dynamic caching is, let's be honest here,

00:30:36   dynamic caching is a marketing term that Apple has come up with to try and explain why they're

00:30:42   getting more GPU bandwidth than just what you'd expect from the chip speed improvements themselves.

00:30:53   How do you get a real improvement in GPU performance and efficiency? And you have to be

00:31:04   really motivated, since this is something that no, according to Apple anyway, I mean, no chip

00:31:08   designers have done this before. They came up with this approach because they're really trying

00:31:16   to wring as much performance out of their GPUs as possible. So the way it was explained to me is,

00:31:23   and again, it's simplifying, but there are threads that are being used by the GPU to do tasks.

00:31:30   And there are a few ways that you can set up how much memory essentially you want to use for

00:31:36   a particular thread of a task. And there are a couple approaches you can take. So think about it

00:31:41   that way. Think about you're doing a game or whatever, but you've got lots and lots and lots

00:31:44   and lots of threads and you're pumping them into a GPU. The way traditionally it's done is generally

00:31:51   you either look at what the peak amount of memory that you're going to need for this thread is,

00:31:56   and you allocate that much memory to it because you don't want to run out of memory. Or,

00:32:02   alternately, you're careful about the memory you use and you set it to a specific amount,

00:32:08   but you know that if you use it all, it is going to create a bottleneck where you've used it all,

00:32:15   and so everything is going to back up and slow down because you can't allocate more memory to

00:32:20   that thread. The thread has to wait. That's the general idea. And if you think about it that way,

00:32:26   and they did their little graphic with the peak, there's inefficiency. On one side, on the kind of

00:32:33   bottleneck side, you get a bottleneck. That's not great. But on the other side, you have memory

00:32:39   reserved for this one thread all the time that's only used at the peak moment. And then it goes

00:32:46   down from there and that memory is sort of sitting there, allocated but unused. And if you think

00:32:51   about a GPU and about the whole pool of memory that the system has on a Mac, and you're doing

00:32:58   a really intensive task, one way you could be more efficient is to reclaim that space that's not being

00:33:06   used by that thread when it's not at peak. And similarly, if you've got a thread that's bottlenecked,

00:33:15   one way to make it move better would be to give it more memory. But it's bottlenecked. So what they

00:33:21   do is this thing, which they're calling dynamic caching, where essentially the system is looking

00:33:26   at the threads and is dynamically adjusting how much memory is allocated to them so that in a

00:33:32   bottleneck situation, the bottleneck can be opened, and that in a situation where memory is being

00:33:37   allocated for peak, when it's not at peak, they can take that memory back and give it to something

00:33:42   else. And so if you can imagine a bunch of threads hitting the GPU and they're all jostling, they all

00:33:50   need memory, and you've run out of memory, well, if a lot of them aren't at peak right now, you

00:33:56   actually do have memory if you can dynamically reassign that memory to a different thread.

00:34:01   That is the super simplified "don't ask me any questions" version of what this is. So it's an

00:34:09   idea where Apple's chip designers have worked really hard to squeeze out this extra memory

00:34:15   performance in order to make the GPU performance greater. And they're real proud of it. And again,

00:34:22   the impression I got is you wouldn't do this unless you were extremely motivated to increase

00:34:29   the efficiency of your GPU. And Apple is extremely motivated to do so. So it's an interesting idea.

00:34:35   So with all of that, the base chip still just supports one monitor.

00:34:40   I don't know if these things are related, but I know it's something that people find disappointing.

00:34:45   No, I mean, they're not related at all. Let me close the loop on the GPU thing and just say that

00:34:49   the big point here is that this is not an API. This is all at the system level. Developers of

00:34:56   software don't change anything. It just happens. So it's transparent, which is why in the end,

00:35:01   it's going to come out as being GPU speed or efficiency. That's how you're going to see it.

00:35:08   You're not going to see it as like, "Haha, we did this thing." It's going to be like, "Oh,

00:35:11   it is faster. It is more frames per second." Things like that. Okay. M3. So you said it.

00:35:19   One external monitor only, just like the M1 and the M2. And this is a story that now goes beyond

00:35:25   the M3 base model. Apple is, with this line, doing some really clear product differentiation. Like,

00:35:34   the M3, the M3 Pro, and the M3 Max are all getting even more distinct from one another.

00:35:41   I think it's most interesting in the M3 Pro. But the M3... So Intel has given everybody the idea

00:35:52   that low-end systems should support multiple external monitors, because Intel built their

00:35:57   chips that way. Now, Intel built their chips that way probably because they wanted them to be sold

00:36:03   to as many different companies for building into products as possible. And so they wanted the

00:36:07   flexibility there. Apple has decided, and it is a decision, Apple has decided that their low-end

00:36:13   chips don't... In order to save basically on money, but also to differentiate them from the other

00:36:21   chips, that it's going to have limited capabilities for video, and it's essentially only going to be

00:36:26   able to do two streams of video, which means that on a Mac Mini, you can run two displays,

00:36:30   but on an iMac, and presumably a MacBook Air, you can only run one external display because they've

00:36:34   got an internal display that is wired in. It's a decision that they make. I definitely... So here's

00:36:45   the hard thing. I think they should support two external displays on an M3. I think they should,

00:36:51   but they don't. I think they should... At the very least, they should engineer it so that if you're

00:36:55   on a laptop in lid closed, it can run two external displays. I get not three, right? Not the idea

00:37:03   that you have your laptop display and two external displays, but when the laptop screen is off or the

00:37:09   lid is closed, it sure would be nice if they had built that in, and they didn't again. So if you

00:37:14   want a MacBook Air, but you want to run two external displays, you can't do it.

00:37:18   And I feel for you, but at the same time, I understand what Apple is doing here.

00:37:22   Apple is doing market segmentation. Apple is saying, "If you are a sophisticated enough user

00:37:27   to require two external displays attached to your laptop, you should buy a pro chip." That's it.

00:37:35   That's what they're saying. We're not going to make it easy for you to buy a thousand dollar

00:37:41   laptop and have two external displays because you are a sophisticated enough user that you

00:37:45   should be giving us more money. That's what they're saying. Again, I don't hate that. I

00:37:51   understand it. That's business. What I hate is that they've made it so that even if the laptop

00:37:56   is closed, it can't drive two. That seems silly. And it's even sillier on the new, which we'll get

00:38:02   to in a little bit, the new 14-inch MacBook Pro base model, which still has an HDMI port on it,

00:38:09   but can still only drive one external display, not two. It's a little bit silly. I wish they

00:38:15   had done this. Maybe next time, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope because I feel like what

00:38:20   Apple's doing here is, and we can say artificially, but it's business. This is it. Apple has decided

00:38:25   to segment their products in this way. And I know that Intel is doing something different,

00:38:29   but until Apple feels like, "Oh no, we're losing MacBook Air sales to Intel or Qualcomm-based

00:38:38   laptops because so many people want to do two external displays," that's never going to happen.

00:38:44   I think they'll just keep doing it. - I mean, this is one of the things where I think it would

00:38:48   be nice if they did it for the people that want it, but I do agree with, like, I feel like this is

00:38:54   pretty niche for people that want this particular computer. Like, if you do want to do this that

00:39:02   badly, there are many computers that you can buy or can be provided that will do it. And

00:39:07   if it's that important for your work and your work is not providing it, then they need to change what

00:39:12   they're providing you. You know what I feel like? Why can't a MacBook Pro drive 15 displays?

00:39:18   Like, why not, right? - I feel for somebody who just wants a MacBook Air but also wants to run

00:39:23   three displays. But like, David in our chat just said, "It's a serious choice of Apple's at this

00:39:28   point. Three displays is pro feature and then a smiley that's not smiling." And I think the

00:39:34   implication that David is making there is, "Come on, Apple." I would say, if you're running three

00:39:39   displays, you're a pro user. Three displays is an uncommon, very, very, very uncommon use case.

00:39:48   And I know it's your use case, so 100% of you personally are using it that way. - And you may 100%

00:39:54   not want to buy the Pro machine, but this is kind of just the way it rolls. - But look, if Apple knew

00:39:59   that MacBook Airs were not being sold because everybody wants to hook them up to two external

00:40:04   displays, they would have changed it. But it's just not true. It's just not true. And it is like

00:40:09   saying, "Well, I want more ports. I want the newest Thunderbolt. I want the..." They're artificially

00:40:17   withholding the HDR, that XDR screen from the MacBook Air. It's like, they're not artificially

00:40:22   withholding it. It costs a lot of money. MacBook Air has a very specific price point. And if you

00:40:29   want the nicer thing, you got to pay more money for it. That's business. So there's a business

00:40:35   decision going on here. I think it's amplified by the fact that Intel made everybody believe that

00:40:40   that was a table stakes feature. And so it was in Apple's laptops when they were on Intel.

00:40:45   Apple clearly doesn't think it is. And it's saving... I will also say this. Apple is saving

00:40:50   money in the design of the low-end chip by not having it be capable of more external displays.

00:40:56   It's saving money. It is cutting corners there because that is, and I know it's not fun to hear

00:41:00   this, the budget chip. That's what it is. It's a budget chip. I know it's Apple, so budget is

00:41:05   bigger than it would be for other computer makers, but still it is their low-end model and it's

00:41:11   differentiated in that way. Like I said, I still think they should at the very least support two

00:41:16   displays in lid closed mode. I don't think that's too weird, but I understand it. - I think in lid

00:41:22   closed mode for sure. I agree with that. I think that that just makes logical sense to me.

00:41:27   Because it's complicated because people in the discord now are saying like,

00:41:31   "Oh, I think this chip does this, this chip does that." No, it's actually very complicated.

00:41:35   M3 supports one external display. That means two total displays. M3 Pro is two external displays

00:41:45   in some resolutions and one external display in other resolutions, but that can mean a total of

00:41:50   three total displays. The M3 Max can support four external displays and then again, a bunch of

00:41:59   different caveats for if different resolutions will be different amounts, but that means the

00:42:03   M3 Max can support a total of five displays because you include the internal display

00:42:09   because you can have the laptop open. Very confusing, but would be better if that M3 could do

00:42:16   two always. They always could be open or closed, all of them, and that either grants you the

00:42:23   ability to use it open or to use it closed and have a display take its place. That would be good

00:42:29   if they did that. - I get people saying, "Well, but I wish that the thing that I bought for less

00:42:33   did more." I get it, and I totally do get it, but the fact is that also I have to say, this is Apple

00:42:42   segmenting their market. There's talk in our Discord now about, "In corporate life, two

00:42:48   mediocre displays is a very common thing." It's like, "Okay, two mediocre displays hooked up to a

00:42:54   Mac is a very common thing." Well, if that's true, I think in corporate life, I think what Apple would

00:42:59   probably say is, "Hey, corporation, if that's your setup, you need to give us more money. If that's

00:43:06   the way you're doing it, give us more money." Because in the end, that's what they're saying is,

00:43:11   what people are saying is, "I wish they made this thing more capable than it is."

00:43:14   I get your wish, but I'm also trying to understand what Apple's doing here, which is saying, "No,

00:43:20   pay us." Look, we talk about rounding up and then going up higher with Apple stuff. Apple makes a

00:43:28   lot of money, and it has huge profit margins, and this is one of the reasons why. They're going to

00:43:35   differentiate their products, and the cheapest product is not going to be the most capable.

00:43:39   It's just not. I want to run through some stats, some statistics for you, if you don't mind,

00:43:47   about the different chips. All right, so the M3 still has an eight-core CPU, which is the same as

00:43:54   the M2. It has four performance, four efficiency. This is the same. Maximum of 10 GPU cores and a

00:44:01   maximum of 24 gigabytes of RAM. The M3 Pro still has a 12-core CPU, but it is now six performance,

00:44:11   six efficiency, shifting from eight and four in the M2. It has a maximum of 18 GPU cores,

00:44:18   which is down one, and a maximum of 36 gigabytes of RAM, up from 32 gigabytes of RAM. I've been

00:44:29   seeing a lot of people very upset about that number, 36, that it doesn't make sense to them,

00:44:34   which is interesting. The M3 Max has a 16-core CPU that is 12 performance, four efficiency,

00:44:42   up from eight and four. The maximum GPU spec is 40 cores, up from 38. The maximum RAM is 128

00:44:49   gigabytes, up from 96 gigabytes. It's just a bunch of numbers. - Thank you for the numbers.

00:44:57   - No problem. - It's more effective in a chart,

00:44:59   but this is a podcast, and so you get a verbal chart. - It's a verbal chart. You gotta draw it

00:45:04   in your brain. - It is. So here's what's going on. So M3, low-end, didn't change it. It's on the new

00:45:11   architecture, but pretty much the same idea, four performance, four efficiency. Now, we should note,

00:45:16   and Apple has talked about this, it's true, Apple's efficiency cores are pretty fast. The idea here

00:45:21   is that you're doing your day-to-day life, you may never even need the performance cores until you

00:45:25   really tax your computer, and the efficiency cores are super power efficient. So they're the ones

00:45:30   that give you the great battery life. But it's a very familiar setup. It's pretty much the M2.

00:45:36   We talked about the displays and all of that. They made the decision to really not do a lot

00:45:42   to the base model. They're kinda keeping it where it is, just on this new three-nanometer process,

00:45:48   and it's the new cores, and it's the new neural engine, and it's faster in all those ways,

00:45:51   according to Apple. But it's not a rethink of what an M3 should be. It is what we know.

00:46:00   The max is, to go jump up to the max, the max is really interesting because they are putting their,

00:46:07   I would say, foot to the floor on the high end. They're like, "No, no, no, here we go.

00:46:11   Eight performance cores? How about 12?" That's what they did. The same number of efficiencies,

00:46:18   four. But they went from eight to 12. So huge CPU boost there. This is why it's gonna be so

00:46:24   much faster than an M1 max. It is my poor little M1 max in my Mac Studio. They increased the GPU

00:46:30   cores a little bit. They increased the max RAM, which is gonna make a lot of people happy to go

00:46:33   128. They did a bunch of stuff. And as we know, the GPU cores are also, they should all be a lot

00:46:39   faster, and so that's gonna be a big boost. Now, also keep in mind, that's the maximum of the max

00:46:45   chip. You have to pay a lot of money to get up there. There are going to be other configurations

00:46:50   with fewer cores on GPU and CPU. And of course, you have to pay a lot of money for that much RAM.

00:46:56   That's Apple. But the edges of high performance are there, and they're further out than they used

00:47:03   to be, especially those 12 performance cores. That's gonna be like a CPU monster. Okay.

00:47:08   This leaves us with the Pro chip. And I think, and I knew, we've learned a little bit more since

00:47:15   my briefing, 'cause my briefing, I get what Apple gives me, but I don't get anything else. I don't

00:47:20   have the website. I'm not digging through all the details. I have the press release, and I have what

00:47:23   they told me. But even with that, I started to have an inkling while I was talking to them that

00:47:30   something's going on with the M3 Pro. The M3 Pro used to feel like a baby brother of the M3,

00:47:39   or the M2 Pro and the M1 Pro felt like they were lesser maxes. And this feels like it is detached

00:47:49   entirely from the max and is drifting toward the M3, in the sense that I think Apple is doing some

00:47:57   more, they're more confident with Apple Silicon. They're doing more chip differentiation. And the

00:48:03   M3 Max, and the way they position it in their marketing, and if you pay attention to that event,

00:48:08   you saw it. It's like the M3 Max is for the highest, most demanding professional user.

00:48:16   And they're coming up with new ways of describing the kind of work that goes into it, medical

00:48:22   imaging and all this stuff. And they're like, when you speak, hear Apple speak in the context

00:48:27   of the M3 Max, they are talking about the most demanding users. I think they're doing that for

00:48:33   a reason, which is that they have put their foot to the floor in terms of performance,

00:48:37   but that's gonna be a really expensive chip. And they anticipate that most people are gonna use

00:48:41   the Pro chip or the base chip, but those are the ones that are gonna get used, is the Pro and the

00:48:47   base chip, not the Max. And so what have they done with the Pro? It feels to me like what they've

00:48:54   done with the Pro is make it more affordable or more profitable or some combination thereof.

00:49:04   It feels like it's not, the foot is not on the floor with the Pro. The Pro is sort of like,

00:49:12   it's not even hanging where it was. It's sort of like drifting back a little bit away from the Max

00:49:18   toward the M3. And the best example of this is it only has six performance cores instead of eight,

00:49:26   which means that although I'm sure it will be faster than the M2 Pro,

00:49:30   going down to, trading two performance cores for two efficiency cores,

00:49:36   all else being equal, it would be a slower chip. I'm sure it's gonna not be because it's M3,

00:49:45   but that's a move that they made. And that is a move to make it more efficient

00:49:50   and less performative, bottom line, than a theoretical M3 Pro that had eight and four.

00:49:58   The GPU core is a weird one, 19, 18, whatever. Max RAM is up, that's good. The memory bandwidth

00:50:07   is down, which is really interesting. Also, by the way, the Max 36 gigs of RAM is divisible by three.

00:50:15   Apparently there are three RAM banks instead of two. So it's 12, 12, 12, and we're used to having

00:50:20   two, but now it's three. So your math changes. Anyway, I am fascinated by the M3 Pro because

00:50:26   it feels to me like what Apple is doing is like trying to position it in a way where they've got a

00:50:30   powerful chip that's going to appeal to most Pros, except those on the highest end.

00:50:37   And in doing so, they've changed the mixture a little bit to make it more,

00:50:42   again, so it can hit a price point. And you can say, is that to make it cheaper or is that to

00:50:49   make Apple have a bigger profit margin? My guess is it's a little of both, which is why I would say

00:50:53   to hit a price point. They think this is also probably, this one is gonna ship in way more

00:51:00   volume than the Max. And so there's probably something about that too, that this is a thing

00:51:06   they can make in volume, maybe in the Max is a little more special and specialized and expensive.

00:51:12   So I just think it's fascinating. I don't think it's necessarily fundamentally good or bad,

00:51:16   but now before I used to think of that Apple had a low-end chip and some different flavors of high-end

00:51:24   chip. And now I think Apple has a low chip, a mid-range chip, and a high-end chip. And that is

00:51:30   because the pro chip is not, to me, it doesn't feel like it did before. And I wonder if this goes back

00:51:37   to what we were talking about a minute ago with the external displays, which is like, we can cast

00:51:42   our eye on these things as much as we like and try and understand what they are, who they're meant

00:51:47   for, what they do, what the decisions are. Apple does have way more data and information than we

00:51:52   could ever imagine. This may be that we want to create the chip that most people buying this

00:52:02   product maybe are going to buy. And we think that it should be more balanced. That they're like,

00:52:09   most people are doing most of their work on the MacBook Pro, which I reckon is the case

00:52:13   on the pro chips, right? Like you were saying, they are using the efficiency cores for 90%

00:52:20   of their work. So let's have more of those to more evenly balance the load.

00:52:25   I would come at this as also as a different level, which is they know what people are buying.

00:52:28   And they look at this and they think, okay, think of it this way. Let's say, and I'm just making

00:52:34   this up, but let's say that the M2 Pro chip costs 10 QWATUs, and the M2 Max chip costs 15 QWATUs

00:52:50   to manufacture. And they look at it and they say, oh my God, everybody buys the M2 Pro chip,

00:52:55   but we have these customers who desperately want maximum performance and we have to have a high-end

00:53:00   chip for them. And it's the basis of the ultra, which is in our Mac Pro. And we have to have the

00:53:05   high-end chip for them. So we can't skimp on our high-end chip, but most people don't want the

00:53:11   high-end chip. They want this pro. And then you end up with a decision that looks like is what

00:53:15   they made here, which is, okay, here's what we're gonna do. The M3 Max is gonna cost 20 QWATUs.

00:53:21   And the M3 Pro, we're gonna keep it 10 or we're gonna make it eight or seven. And then we're gonna

00:53:29   keep our prices the same and we're gonna make more money on those. But whatever it is, sorry,

00:53:33   it's QWATUs, it's a "Star Trek" thing. Anyway. - I will say, you know how we were kind of poking

00:53:38   fun at me earlier for the amount of numbers that I said? - Yeah. - You made that so much more

00:53:43   complicated for me. - I just did the QWATUs. - But instead of just saying dollars. - Well,

00:53:48   but it doesn't 10 dollars. It doesn't cost 10 dollars. - Yeah, but it also is 10 QWATUs, Jason.

00:53:52   I can confirm that to you as well. - You don't know the QWATU dollar exchange rate, Mike. Fight me.

00:53:55   So this is my point is Apple's in a position where I think they analyze the sales of their products

00:54:02   in these days of Apple Silicon and say, "Ah, this is what we need to do." We need to take the Max

00:54:06   chip and continue to make it super awesome. And it's gonna be expensive, but the people who want

00:54:10   it are gonna pay for it. But this Pro chip, right? Like it's very popular, but they don't

00:54:17   really need all the stuff that's in the Max. So we gotta, let's back it off a little bit,

00:54:23   because that will allow us to either hold the prices the same or whatever, maintain our margins,

00:54:30   make more of them, whatever it is. And that seems to be what's going on here. I just think it's

00:54:34   really interesting. 'Cause like I said, my impression of the first couple of generations

00:54:37   was more that the Pro was just sort of a lesser Max. And that is not what's happening now. Like

00:54:42   the Pro is a mid range chip that I think is powerful enough for most Pros to be very happy

00:54:48   with it. And the Max is becoming like, you gotta be the most, like they said, the most demanding

00:54:54   users will pay up and get the Max. And then you're not buying a $2,000 laptop, right? Then you're

00:54:59   buying a $4,000 laptop. And that's the difference. We say that these are MacBook Pros and they're all

00:55:04   the same. But the truth is like the $2,000 laptop is a Pro chip. When you get to the Max chip,

00:55:13   you are now a three or $4,000 laptop. It's a very different proposition that the people for whom

00:55:19   it's worth spending that extra money, they'll do it. But a lot of people, most people will be like,

00:55:24   you know, that Pro chip is just fine. And in a laptop, like you said, more efficiency cores,

00:55:30   very powerful, but also perhaps will not burn through the battery as much.

00:55:35   - Some real time follow up Apple has now made public again, the behind the scenes shot on iPhone

00:55:41   video. So that'll be in the show notes. I will also now just note if you were one of the helpful

00:55:46   listeners who have sent this to us between the beginning and this part of the episode,

00:55:52   I would like to say thank you. And now you know why I didn't say thank you to you when you sent

00:55:58   it to me. 'Cause I'm just convinced that people will be sending it to us having heard the first

00:56:04   part of the show, right? And then we get to this part, but now they know that we know,

00:56:08   and we've got it in and I've got it in my watch later queue on YouTube now. I'm looking forward

00:56:12   to watching it later on. This episode is brought to you by Delete Me. Everyone wants to keep their

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00:58:42   their support of this show and Relay FM. Let's talk about the actual Mackintosh's

00:58:49   in a little bit more detail than just what the chips are that go inside them.

00:58:56   I know now that we've done the chips, we can now do... This is very Apple, right? It's like,

00:59:00   "Hey, chips, chips, chips." We structure it this way. Same as them. It makes sense.

00:59:03   So we did get the same year revision of the 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pro, right? They were revised to

00:59:09   the M2 in January, and then in October, here's the M3 versions. So they're late. I mean, more and more

00:59:17   now it's very clear, because we thought that at the time that they were late, they were supposed

00:59:20   to be in the fall and they didn't come until January. January, an unusual time for Apple to

00:59:24   release products, by the way. Well, here we are. They seem to be on an annual schedule.

00:59:30   Yeah, the M1s were in October, right? We spoke about this on last... I think on the draft,

00:59:35   or maybe in last week's episode. The original M1 were in October, and then this was January,

00:59:40   and then we're back to October again, which would suggest that ideally next October will be the next

00:59:45   time. "Hey, maybe they'll do it in January, Jason." Well, it's if they have got an M4, but in this

00:59:51   case, they didn't get that... I think clearly the M2 Pro chip wasn't ready until January, and now

00:59:55   here we are with the M3 Pro chip. So that generation got laggy at the very least. So here we are,

01:00:01   in the same calendar year, and they are largely the same, right? Like there are some changes

01:00:09   with the one particular thing that we're going to talk about, about the low-end model, but they

01:00:15   are basically... They already redesigned them. That display, the curved edges, the whole thing,

01:00:21   they are what you think they are with a new chip in them. And as Apple said, they have a new color

01:00:29   for Pros that is unmistakably Pro, and they were starting to show it off, and I'm like, "Oh, it

01:00:34   will be like the titanium color, right?" Because that's what makes it like unmistakably Pro,

01:00:40   because we just did all of this, right, with the iPhone. No, it's space black. Space black.

01:00:47   Space black. A quote from jasonsnile6colors.com, "A new color that features a new anodization

01:00:53   seal process designed to reduce the visibility of fingerprints. I got my greasy monkey paws on

01:00:58   a space black laptop and can report that Apple's as good as its word in the sense that it seems

01:01:04   generally more resistant to fingerprints than other smudges. But I don't want to exaggerate

01:01:08   this feature. You can still see fingerprints. They just aren't as prominent. This is a progressive

01:01:12   improvement of something like a midnight M2 MacBook Air, but it's not a cure-all, and space black is

01:01:18   not actually as black as space. It's dark gray." Yeah, so a lot of asterisk here. I'll point out,

01:01:23   by the way, it wasn't just my greasy monkey paws. It was just a little behind-the-scenes thing.

01:01:27   I was with Joanna Stern from the Wall Street Journal, and she and I both

01:01:30   pawed it as much as we could. And I'd love to say, "Oh, I pawed that thing, and you couldn't

01:01:38   see the fingerprints." You could see fingerprints on it. They were less visible, and it was harder

01:01:42   to leave them. My understanding is that they've done something chemical. Any sealing process of

01:01:47   the anodization that is creating something that is more repellent to liquids, including oil,

01:01:51   and the idea there is it's harder for things to stick, which means it's probably also easier

01:01:57   for you to wipe it off. But do not, again, I just have to say it, and Apple's not claiming that it

01:02:03   doesn't do fingerprints. Apple is claiming it is more resistant to fingerprints. It's a little bit

01:02:07   like how Apple gradually made iPhone and iPad screens more glare-resistant over time. It's not

01:02:15   like you can hold it with the sun behind you and not have a glare. There's still a glare there.

01:02:19   It's just less than it was. That is what is going on here. It's less fingerprinty. I love that

01:02:23   they're trying this, and I think it will be less fingerprinty. But just don't get your hopes up.

01:02:29   What I'm really saying is when they come out next week and there's that story that's like, "Gasp! I

01:02:35   can see fingerprints!" Of course you can see fingerprints. That's not the point. The point is

01:02:41   they tried to make some chemical changes to the anodization process to reduce fingerprints,

01:02:46   and I think they have reduced it, but they're still there. Then as for the color, and I know

01:02:51   it's upgrade. We love talking about color here. I saw so many people excited last night when this

01:02:57   event came out saying, "Oh, black MacBook! Blackbook! Yay! It's very exciting! I love it!

01:03:02   We're gonna get it!" You know what? You do you, but as somebody who has seen it in person,

01:03:09   let me tell you, it's just dark gray. It's not black. The Midnight MacBook Air is the

01:03:18   closest thing to a black laptop Apple has made in years. This is not that close. It is darker than

01:03:24   space gray on the last generation or the low-end laptops. It's darker than that one, but it's still

01:03:34   just dark metallic gray. It's not black. If you like dark gray, the darker the better.

01:03:38   Looking at the images on Apple's website, it doesn't look black anyway. You can tell me if

01:03:44   it looks like this, but I feel like if you just look, you can see it's dark gray. It seems pretty

01:03:48   obvious to me. Again, space black sends the message that it's black, and I think people

01:03:54   got a little too excited about it. I just want to put that warning out there. If you're expecting

01:03:59   this to be a black laptop, it's not. It is just a darker space gray, essentially. It is space grayer,

01:04:06   and that's okay, especially if you like your laptop, the darker the better. What could be more

01:04:12   pro than darker gray? I guess that says it all about Apple and color, but here we are. So just

01:04:18   be aware. Be aware. And if you want the darkest laptop possible, buy the MacBook Air in midnight,

01:04:25   because it's still the darkest laptop Apple makes. But more fingerprinty though, for sure.

01:04:30   For sure. I would just like to take this brief aside here to just ask, can we just put a moratorium

01:04:36   on Blackbook? Can we just stop that? Stop it. Can everyone just stop that? Just stop it. That's all

01:04:43   I want to say. I don't like the way it sounds. It's weird. Just stop it. Just stop it. It's a

01:04:50   black MacBook. That's what it is. We don't need to do that. That's my brief aside. That's that.

01:04:58   We have a new 14-inch MacBook Pro that replaces the 13-inch MacBook Pro. So the touch bar is gone,

01:05:05   by replacing that laptop completely. I wish I had one of those, you know, the New Year's like,

01:05:11   "Doo doo!" to celebrate the death of the 13-inch with touch bar. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. You

01:05:20   notice that that wasn't in the press release. I had to ask. I said, "Is the 13-inch gone?" And

01:05:24   they're like, "Yeah, it's gone. It's gone." Gone-er. So this now means that there was a $300

01:05:30   more expensive starting point for the MacBook Pro. So this puts further distance between it and the

01:05:38   MacBook Air. And I do feel like there is a warrant in its price increase because it has everything

01:05:46   that a 14-inch MacBook Pro has, right? Well, let me just, it's like everything in quotes, right?

01:05:53   Like it has the ports, it has the design, and it has... All right, go on then. If you're going to

01:05:59   keep doing that, just tell me why I'm wrong. Sorry. Well, yesterday I thought that it had

01:06:04   everything. It doesn't have everything, but it does have the most important feature of the MacBook Pro,

01:06:09   which is the screen. Yeah. Liquid Recna XDR ProMotion display is amazing. It's the best

01:06:16   screen Apple makes, and you can get it for not $2,000 now, for $1,600. It doesn't have all the

01:06:25   ports because it's got an M3 chip, and so it's missing a USB port. Oh, okay. On the... Dan Safert

01:06:33   from The Verge noticed this today, on the other side. So it only has the one side. So it's eight

01:06:38   gigs of RAM, which is not great, but again, you're just... It is the cheapest they've made this thing

01:06:43   with the great screen and all of that. And because it's an M3, it only supports the one external

01:06:47   display, and it doesn't have that extra port on the left side. Right. So it... Because... And this is

01:06:56   the same reason, right? Which is the M3 chip, like the M2 and the M1, have a limited number of lanes

01:07:03   for Thunderbolt and USB and for display. And that's why it doesn't do the external displays,

01:07:09   and it's why it's limited in the number of ports that it can have, just like the M1 and the M2. As

01:07:13   a result, while it's still a 14-inch MacBook Pro, it is a big asterisk because it doesn't even have

01:07:20   the same port configuration. It's slightly different. That all said... I wouldn't call that

01:07:25   a big asterisk. Like... Okay, it's a little asterisk. I mean... It's one USB-C port less.

01:07:32   When the ports change, it's a little bit different. But like, again, I just want to... I want to

01:07:36   disclaim all of that, but I want to say I agree with you. It is a real MacBook Pro because it's

01:07:43   got the most important stuff. Yes. Especially the screen, which I think is the most... And MagSafe.

01:07:50   And MagSafe, which the 13-inch MacBook Pro also didn't have, and not a touch bar, which is a very

01:07:56   important feature, I think, for a lot of people. Because if you would have told me that they were

01:07:59   going to do this, I would have assumed they would have changed the screen. Right? That it would not

01:08:04   have had the ProMotion, Liquid Retina, XS, the Oscar. That was our shower thought, right? Was

01:08:09   that it would be a 13-inch with a cheap screen, but it would look more like the 14-inch. And

01:08:13   they... Look, very clearly, first off, the 14-inch MacBook Pro has been out for a couple of years now,

01:08:19   for three years now. So it's come down in terms of the price that Apple... The cost of

01:08:27   manufacture has come down. So that lets Apple lower the price a little bit. And then they put

01:08:32   the cheaper chip in it. And they made the decision that they could bring it down to $1,599, but what

01:08:42   they weren't going to do is pull out the screen. And I think that's the right decision. So it

01:08:45   doesn't have a lot of RAM, it's missing a port. It's got the lesser chip in it. But you know what?

01:08:51   It's a MacBook Pro with an M3 chip, which will still be pretty fast for a lot of people, at a

01:08:57   much lower starting price. And it has that screen that is amazing. And I love this move on their

01:09:04   part because, first off, it's access to the modern MacBook Pro for under two grand, right? So it's

01:09:12   $1,599 you can get into a modern MacBook Pro. Up to now, it's been two grand to get into that. So

01:09:18   that's great. You mentioned it's $300 more expensive than that 13-inch that they took off

01:09:24   the line. If I had to theorize about this, and I do, I have a podcast there. I think Apple doesn't

01:09:35   expect all of those 13-inch MacBook Pro buyers, or doesn't want all those 13-inch MacBook Pro buyers

01:09:40   to buy the 14-inch. I think they would like as many of them as possible to buy the 14-inch,

01:09:46   right? Because I think that that's a more expensive product, more money goes to Apple.

01:09:50   It's great. But I had to guess, I would say they expect to maybe have that, keep in mind, second

01:09:58   best-selling Apple laptop after the 13-inch MacBook Air. Where do all those people go? I think

01:10:03   a bunch of them go to the 14-inch at $1,599, which while it is lesser in so many ways that we've

01:10:08   detailed, is such a better computer than that 13-inch was. Plus it's $300 in Apple's pocket.

01:10:15   And the rest of them, I think they hope they go to the 15 and the 13-inch Airs, especially that

01:10:20   15. And if they can sell some people on like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you just get the MacBook

01:10:24   Air." I think they would be very happy with that. Because I think the truth is that most of the

01:10:29   people who are buying that 13-inch MacBook Pro would have been much better off with a MacBook Air.

01:10:33   But we'll see, because sometimes Apple makes these decisions and it turns out that they don't know

01:10:38   the market and the market really resists them. And they might still have a problem here, but

01:10:42   they must feel like going up to 2,000 was a bridge too far, which is why they had that cheaper MacBook

01:10:49   Pro. They must feel like $1,599 is not too far. And if they lose some people, they've now got not just

01:10:59   the 13, but that 15-inch Air, which I think is a very appealing computer. And it's got a pretty

01:11:05   good price too. So there's lots of choices now. You can get the 15 Air, you can get the 14 Pro,

01:11:10   you can get the 13 Air. There's a lot of stuff going on there for people to choose,

01:11:15   but they're all good. And we'll have to see how it works. So even though this is very limited,

01:11:21   and I think there are a lot of nerds who are like MacBook Pro snobs who are gonna be like,

01:11:24   "This is not..." It's like, yeah, I know. I know it's not a MacBook Pro in certain ways,

01:11:32   but the old one wasn't either. This one's MacBook Pro in way more ways than the old one was while

01:11:38   still being under $2,000. So I think it's a great move on their part, even though it does mean that

01:11:44   there's basically a decontented 14-inch MacBook Pro that's available. Don't worry, MacBook Pro snobs,

01:11:52   they still make all of your computers too. They're all still available up for $2,000 and more.

01:11:58   And obviously, tech podcasters, we love nothing more than, Apple tech podcasts especially,

01:12:05   we learn nothing more than what we consider to be a product lineup that makes sense.

01:12:10   Clean, oh yes, the aesthetics of a product lineup.

01:12:13   I don't believe in the four quadrant idea. I think that that idea has long since passed,

01:12:20   was good for then, but not for now. I just like there to be, I can look at a product page

01:12:25   and I can see all the products and they make sense to me. And when I look at the all Mac,

01:12:33   compare all Macs page or whatever, and I see all the laptops, I'm like, "Yeah,

01:12:39   this makes sense to me that we have a 13-inch MacBook Air and we have a 15-inch MacBook Air

01:12:45   and we have a 14-inch MacBook Pro and we have a 16-inch MacBook Pro, and you can configure them

01:12:50   within themselves, but those four laptops, just it makes sense." And the old MacBook Pro just made

01:12:58   no sense. - Made no sense.

01:13:00   Yeah, it was from another era. One other note that I wanted to mention is color because the low end

01:13:10   MacBook Pro 14, the M3 MacBook Pro 14 doesn't come in space black. Oh, casp! It comes in silver and

01:13:20   the old space gray. I guess they had some old space gray laying around and if you want a pro,

01:13:25   the most pro color, you gotta spend two grand. - So basically it's like you're a fake pro, right?

01:13:29   - Yeah, it's the mark of shame. - Yeah, you're a fake pro.

01:13:32   - So just get it in silver because then nobody needs to know.

01:13:35   - You're a fake pro. - But if you get in space gray,

01:13:37   you're telling on yourself, I guess, or something. - It also, that 14-inch MacBook Pro,

01:13:44   as pointed out by friend of the show, Dan Seifert, a sort of some mastodon,

01:13:47   it starts at $1,600. It comes with eight gigabytes of RAM. That is bad. That is bad.

01:13:52   That is just bad. I think the iMac is the same. Like, stop doing that.

01:13:56   - I would love to see more at the same time. I think there's an argument to be made that

01:14:07   it's, well, okay, it's two things going on. There's an argument to be made that

01:14:10   we all overvalue RAM for a lot of regular normal people who don't care and it's fine.

01:14:15   - It's just a lot of money to spend on a computer with those specs.

01:14:20   - I agree. I think that the, what I would say is this is a case where Apple,

01:14:26   Apple's having us talk about $1,600 and the truth is, $1,599, whatever, they know that,

01:14:36   you know, I think the argument is, let me see if I can phrase this right.

01:14:39   The people who are just buying the base model probably don't care about the eight gigs of RAM

01:14:45   and the people who do care will give Apple more money.

01:14:48   I think Apple likes the way that works, right? Which is like, ah,

01:14:53   this price gets them in the door. Oh, MacBook Pro for $1,599, tell me more.

01:14:57   And they'd say, oh, it's eight gigs of RAM. And some percentage of buyers will be like,

01:15:01   great, whatever. And they'll buy it and they'll probably be fine with it, honestly,

01:15:04   because somebody who says great, whatever probably doesn't really need more RAM, honestly.

01:15:11   Do you really need more RAM? Some people do, but lots of people don't. And the people who do care

01:15:15   will give Apple more money at a great profit margin for Apple to upgrade the RAM. And now

01:15:21   they're not buying a $1,600 computer anymore. Like the goal of that base is to just make that

01:15:27   price as low as they feel like they can. And that's why it's a sad amount of RAM.

01:15:32   But I do think that computer nerds overestimate regular people's use of their computers.

01:15:40   But I feel for all the corporate people who will get the $1,599 MacBook Pro given to them

01:15:46   and they'll struggle with the eight gigs of RAM and they'll be sad. I do feel for them.

01:15:50   - Yeah, I know. - Up to 22 hours of battery life, which is wild.

01:15:56   - That's the same as the 16, but now it's also in the 14.

01:15:59   - That's the key. - They're claiming the 14 now too.

01:16:01   - Yeah. - Because when I saw that stat in the

01:16:03   keynote, it didn't surprise me. But then when I looked it up afterwards, was surprised that the

01:16:08   base 14 of M3 also gets 22 hours of battery life, which I think is like the perfect feature for that

01:16:14   laptop. Because what they're saying is it's like on video and this is like going back to like who

01:16:22   buy, who buys that laptop. And I think it's like a lot of people that they want to buy the pro

01:16:26   laptop. So they get the cheapest pro laptop and they're just using it for their life, right?

01:16:32   They're not using it to make videos and they're not using it to make music. They're like,

01:16:37   it's their laptop. So they're watching TV shows on it and they're doing the web browsing,

01:16:41   which is like a perfectly acceptable use of this computer. And now you get 22 hours of battery

01:16:46   life to do it. You can use it for longer than you can stay awake, which is just kind of awesome.

01:16:52   - The stat, oh, first of all, also the M3 chip has support for that, was it EV1?

01:16:59   The video codec that's on like, it's the not H264. That makes a difference in battery life because

01:17:08   they do a lot of battery life. It's like video streaming, AV1, thank you, Joe Steele. In the,

01:17:13   right? Like one of the reasons that they can have long battery life for a lot of stuff is that the

01:17:19   chips are like, you're not using software. The hardware is doing the decoding of video formats.

01:17:25   And that was a video format that they had to software decode and now they don't. And so

01:17:30   if you've got like Netflix movies and stuff, those all hardware decode now. So you're going

01:17:36   to actually get more battery life for stuff like that. That's how you can end up with those long

01:17:39   battery life things. - I always like it when Apple decides to do something that actually benefits

01:17:45   what people are doing rather than trying to get everybody to do the thing that they want them to

01:17:49   do. - Right, right. I mean, it's not their codec and they don't love it, but they realize that

01:17:55   people are streaming it. So they built it into their chip. So now that it benefits them. My

01:18:01   favorite little bit of marketing in this whole thing is when they said that the battery life on

01:18:09   the MacBook Pro compared, or let me say the MacBook Pro compared to the last Intel MacBook Pro.

01:18:18   They said, it's got 11 hours more battery life and it's 11 times faster. And that made me laugh.

01:18:24   I thought that was pretty good. Also, I'll use this moment to say, I know that there are a lot

01:18:31   of people out there who are like, come on, why are they going to compare it to Intel? I roll my eyes

01:18:35   out a little bit too. I had the thought of like, at some point you got to stop comparing it to Intel.

01:18:39   But I will say, I get the impression that Apple is well aware that some of their products

01:18:48   have very long buying cycles. And I know somebody who is only now going to upgrade to Apple Silicon

01:19:02   from an Intel MacBook Pro. Like I know somebody who's a friend of mine, who's like that. I know

01:19:09   people who have old Intel iMacs. Those buying cycles are often five years, six years, seven

01:19:17   years. And so Apple, yes, it makes a big difference to compare it to an old Intel Mac. But I understand

01:19:27   why they're doing it. Is they feel like there still is a big audience out there that they can

01:19:31   speak to that says, hey, you can really get a better computer if you upgrade. And maybe now is

01:19:37   the time. Hey, it's 11 times faster with 11 hours more battery life. Maybe it's finally time to let

01:19:42   go of that late model Intel MacBook. There is a just an obscene amount of people in the Discord

01:19:48   right now talking about the Intel MacBook Pros that they use. So there you go. Yeah.

01:19:53   Proving the point. Oh my God. I have multiple friends who have an Intel MacBook Pro. Everybody's

01:19:59   using Intel MacBook Pros. So this is my point is, and this is like a sub note to the whole idea of

01:20:04   what do you compare it to and comparing like a review. Like I did my iPhone review and I wrote

01:20:08   about how it was different from the 14 and the 13 and the 12, right? Like, and the 11, not just

01:20:14   from the 14 because regular people don't go in cycles like that. So while it is very beneficial

01:20:20   to Apple to compare to old Intel processors. Hey Jason, this isn't even regular people. This is

01:20:24   listeners of this show. I know. All right. All right. But let's also keep in mind the listeners

01:20:28   of the show are in an elite category compared to the rest of the world. So it benefits Apple

01:20:33   because they're comparing it to an old Intel processor, not a current Intel processor.

01:20:37   But what they're speaking to is their install base and saying, please, you know, make the move to

01:20:44   Apple Silicon. You need to get off of Intel, get off of it now. And it's just, it's very easy for

01:20:51   us to poo poo and be like Intel, come on old news, comparing it to a computer from 2019. But that's

01:20:57   what they're doing is saying, we know we still have a lot of people using computers from the 2010s

01:21:07   and they don't all switch every two years or three years. Sometimes it's four or five or six or seven.

01:21:13   My family, we had an iMac for like seven years before we updated it. And it was like a 2011,

01:21:23   2010 iMac. And when we had it for seven years, right? Like that's all like, again, just perspective,

01:21:30   I guess like that's one of the reasons Apple's doing it. Yes, the numbers look great,

01:21:34   but there's also a message to be sent to there saying, hey, if you're still hanging on to an

01:21:38   Intel MacBook Pro, you should know that the best one we ever made, this is 11 times faster with

01:21:45   essentially double the battery life. And that's why they do that. They're not just doing that to

01:21:51   boast. They're doing that because they're trying to reach people who are at toward the end of the

01:21:57   life of their Intel Mac, trying to induce them to make the move now. And I wonder how many more

01:22:03   versions of Mac OS will be made for Intel. I still think it's going to happen for a few years. I mean,

01:22:09   there's a lot of them out there and they want to keep them on security and all of that. I think so,

01:22:15   but I think the new features will be very few. One last thing on the MacBook Pro that I thought

01:22:22   was pretty cool is that they have increased the brightness of the display. So a standard definition,

01:22:29   it matches that of the studio display. And I just think that is right.

01:22:34   At standard dynamic range. That's what I meant.

01:22:36   It goes up to 600 nits now. It's in 480p. I don't know if you called that, Jason.

01:22:41   But it's bright. It's bright. That's all that matters, Mike. So yeah, the idea here is

01:22:46   you can't say that the screen is brighter because it's not brighter. Because it's this

01:22:51   XDR display and it does high dynamic range and it peak brightness. It blows your eyes out and

01:22:59   it's all great. But what they did do is most of the time you're not looking at HDR content,

01:23:04   you're looking at standard dynamic range content. And that can now get brighter by 30%.

01:23:11   So it's actually, if you think about like you living life in standard dynamic range,

01:23:18   these have brighter screens. Even though it's not technically true with HDR, most of us do not work

01:23:25   in HDR. We work in SDR and occasionally you open a photo and you're like, whoa, or a movie. You're

01:23:32   like, ah, it's so bright. Oh no. But most of the time not. So it's brighter and it matches the

01:23:37   studio display's max brightness. So that's good. It's a good thing.

01:23:40   Yeah, that's pretty cool. I like that. I like that feature. It's just like a nice little detail.

01:23:45   The iMac got an update. Yes, the iMac. It did.

01:23:49   Nothing really changed. It's the same iMac.

01:23:53   Same everything.

01:23:54   It's the same colors, same stand. So those late rumors that we saw of some kind of stand change,

01:24:01   that didn't happen. What it's done is moved to an M3, just the M3.

01:24:06   Yes, just the M3.

01:24:08   No other options.

01:24:09   No.

01:24:09   And in doing this, it just gains a bunch of additional features. So the maximum RAM you

01:24:16   can put in the machine is now being increased to 24 gigabytes. It gets Wi-Fi 6E and Bluetooth 5.3.

01:24:23   These are just things that come along with the chipset, but the previous version didn't have that.

01:24:27   It is exactly what you might expect, which is it's the M1 iMac, but now it's an M3.

01:24:33   Which means, by the way, that all of Apple's comparisons to the M1

01:24:36   make sense on the iMac because there wasn't an M2 iMac. So they can just say it's twice as fast.

01:24:42   Plus they can say it's two and a half times as fast as the fastest 27-inch Intel iMac,

01:24:51   and four times faster than the 21.5 fastest Intel iMac.

01:24:57   And the same price and same everything else. So again, I think those Intel iMac mentions,

01:25:04   like I said before, are good because there are a lot of Intel iMacs still in use. And so they

01:25:09   just want to make it clear these are way faster. And the M1 iMac was still good, because the M1,

01:25:16   we keep saying this, it's a good chip. It's a real good chip for regular people. It's really good.

01:25:21   But it did need a refresh. It was time for the iMac to get some love, and I'm glad it got it.

01:25:26   But it already got its big redesign, so there's nothing new here at all. They didn't even,

01:25:30   unless something comes out as we get them, it seems like they didn't even tweak it

01:25:35   like at all other than making the chip changes. But that's fine.

01:25:38   It's basically nothing. My feeling on the iMac, I think skipping a chip cycle

01:25:44   is a good kind of product revision cycle for this product.

01:25:49   It's fine. I think it's fine. My only disappointment here, you mentioned same stand,

01:25:54   there were those rumors about a different stand attachment. And I don't think this is true,

01:25:58   and it's too bad. I had another shower thought, Mike.

01:26:02   Good, good.

01:26:02   It was not a shower thought. It was actually a jog. It was a running thought. I was running.

01:26:06   And I had this thought, and I texted it to you while I was running.

01:26:09   Yeah, you sent me a very funny iMessage, which was talking about iMacs, I-M-A-X.

01:26:13   I-M-A-X, right, because Apple doesn't recognize its own product name. But I wanted to get it to

01:26:18   you. And my thought was the one change I wanted on the iMac that they didn't do was, why don't

01:26:24   they make the iMac like the studio display and sell it with the base foot stand or a vase amount

01:26:33   option or an adjustable stand like the studio display? And they didn't do that. And I think

01:26:39   it's too bad because although they would probably charge way too much for that adjustable stand,

01:26:45   wouldn't it be nice if the iMac at least could be sold with an adjustable stand like the

01:26:50   pro display or a studio display? That would be nice. But they didn't do it. So much for that

01:26:54   jogging thought, running thought. But I just think that this is a product that like kind of

01:26:59   fits this, I think. It's done. I mean, the truth is they just redesigned it. It's great. That design

01:27:07   is going to last a long time, and they're going to just keep updating the chip every couple of years,

01:27:11   a couple of three years. It's fine. It's a good computer. If you need an all-in-one,

01:27:15   the best world's best selling all-in-one. I don't know how many all-in-ones there are out there,

01:27:19   but this is one. And it's the best one. And I saw somebody complaining like, well, Halloween,

01:27:25   but there was not even an orange Mac. I'm like, yes, there was. Orange iMac, still there.

01:27:30   It's good looking. You can still get it. But what it didn't bring was USB-C accessories.

01:27:36   You get in the box, you get your lightning cable, your braided lightning cable for your

01:27:40   lightning accessories. Color matched for your color match lightning accessories. That is the surprise.

01:27:45   Okay. They need to update them at some point. There's no doubt about it. They clearly didn't

01:27:52   bother this time. Maybe they weren't ready. Maybe they're on a longer track. Maybe they got a bunch

01:27:57   of them in the factory and they need to sell them out before they replace them. Lots of answers here.

01:28:03   Maybe they so complicated the supply chain with all the color matched items for the iMac

01:28:11   that they can't change the color of the iMac because they've got all these keyboards and

01:28:14   mice and they got to keep moving them out until they run out of them. I don't know.

01:28:18   I'm going to say this is another one of those areas where tech podcasters and people who listen

01:28:25   to tech podcasts are more concerned with the neatness of Apple's product lineup than Apple is

01:28:32   because Apple is not just concerned with aesthetics. Apple is concerned with money.

01:28:37   I get the argument that like we're getting rid of lightning everywhere. Why is it not gone here? I

01:28:42   would like them to revise these products, change where the mouse charges, put USB-C on them. That

01:28:48   all said, these are not travel products that you take with you when you go on a trip and need to

01:28:56   charge. These are sitting on a table somewhere products. For me, the need for them to be updated

01:29:10   off of lightning is it just feels so much less. It's like, yeah, they need to do it. Do I think

01:29:17   they need to do it right now? Do I think it's embarrassing that they haven't done it yet? I

01:29:21   don't. They need to do it. They will do it at some point. I would have loved for them to do it now.

01:29:27   But again, does it kill me every day that I use a trackpad that's attached via lightning

01:29:34   or charged via lightning? It does not. It's fine. It's fine. I would like the keyboard to get

01:29:41   redesigned to have the inverted T, but they had a chance the last time and they didn't do it.

01:29:47   They may not care about that. I would love a Touch ID trackpad. I don't think they're going to make

01:29:52   one, but if they do, it's not now. I would love them to change the charger on the mouse.

01:29:57   It's clearly not a priority for them. I understand why is what I'm saying. In the end,

01:30:05   they know they need to do it eventually, but I don't think that every day that goes by that

01:30:09   there are lightning keyboards in iMac boxes that it's an embarrassment to Apple or that it makes

01:30:15   people's lives worse. I just don't. I think it's more that we all know that it's inevitable, but

01:30:21   Apple is, again, for complex reasons about the ability to redesign their accessories. We just

01:30:29   got the late pencil. Apple is obviously having some issues with its accessory design.

01:30:40   Having a pencil that works with your iPad and presumably having accessories that work with new

01:30:45   iPads next year is probably a higher priority than the thing you use to charge a keyboard that needs

01:30:52   charging once a month. I'm okay with it. I'm a little disappointed, but I think we can overreact

01:31:01   to the existence of a lightning keyboard or trackpad. I think it's fine. The world has

01:31:08   not shifted. It's fine. They will fix it eventually.

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01:33:50   Jason, I put a call out to the Upgradients and they have answered with questions. So the answer

01:33:57   is questions. And we have a lot of Ask Upgrade today to get through about the product. The first

01:34:03   question comes from Jeff. Jeff says, "It seems like there's a lot more configurations for the

01:34:09   new MacBook Pros, many different CPU and GPU configurations, a variety of memory options

01:34:14   exclusive to each configuration. Do you think this is just a downside of how Apple is binning

01:34:20   their chips or is there a strategic approach or user need that you think they're trying to solve?"

01:34:26   It's very complicated. So I'm on the page right now to customize a 14-inch MacBook Pro.

01:34:33   So I brought up that page and I can do the M3 Pro with 12 CPU, 18 GPU, or I can do 14 and 30

01:34:43   or 16 and 40. So at the moment, the top one is selected, 12-core CPU, 18-core GPU.

01:34:50   So then I look down to memory and there are six options for RAM, but only two of them are

01:34:55   available to me. And there are four options for storage, but only three of them are available to

01:35:01   me. And as I change the different CPU options, it then changes the amount of RAM that I'm able

01:35:08   to choose and the storage I'm able to choose. It is complicated now, way more than ever before,

01:35:14   I think. Yeah, so the reason is twofold. It's in part that they are differentiating,

01:35:26   right, the Macs and the Pro. So those configs are going to be real different.

01:35:31   And then the other part of it, I think, is that Apple, like the RAM is part of the chip,

01:35:39   right? It's not a BTO where they pop a different SIM module in, it's on the chip.

01:35:46   So I think they are making certain configs with certain RAM, I think is what they're doing.

01:35:56   And so this goes with that and this goes with that. So it is more complex. It will be interesting to

01:36:03   see how they do it over time. I don't know where the binning fits in and whether they are binning,

01:36:10   if it's just binning that's going on, or if they're literally building different configurations

01:36:15   and tying them to different amounts. Also, again, the difference between Pro and Macs is that Pro

01:36:20   has the three memory banks instead of two on the Macs. And so the numbers are just, the math is

01:36:26   different if you go from Pro to Macs. So it's more complex and we'll have to learn what it is.

01:36:31   But I think that probably there's binning going on here and there are some choices that they're

01:36:37   making about how they're manufacturing these. And we don't know the whole backstory here, but

01:36:40   this is that brand new three nanometer process from TSMC. So who knows, like under the covers,

01:36:47   what kind of weird complexities are going on in order for these things to ship.

01:36:51   That's going to be interesting. Maybe some of that will leak or people will get these and tear

01:36:57   them apart and we'll start to get a better idea. - Yeah, this is super weird. Like I'm clicking

01:37:00   around now, right? And then as you click to certain configurations, the minimum RAM changes,

01:37:06   and then there are also, so like if I choose the 14 CPU, 30 core GPU, I now have two RAM options,

01:37:14   but it's 36 and 96, like the ones in the middle I can't choose. And like, I can also feel the,

01:37:20   I can feel the meeting that went into a line, which is on this page that says,

01:37:28   select M3 Macs with 30 core GPU to add 96 gigabytes of memory. So like M3 Macs with 40

01:37:34   core GPU to add 48, 64 or 128. Like that's a little note underneath the chip section,

01:37:40   where like someone was like, guys, this is too confusing. We need to add a note here.

01:37:44   People won't understand. And it is really weird, right? Then you choose the main one,

01:37:48   sorry, the biggest one, the 16 core CPU, 40 core GPU. Then I can choose 48, 64 or 128. I can't get

01:37:56   96. Like it is odd when you start clicking through this. - It is. - And I don't, like for me, like if

01:38:03   I was designing this page, I would not have the grayed out RAM visible on this page. - So it makes

01:38:11   me think that maybe Apple isn't binning here and is actually just making some different configs.

01:38:20   - It feels like that. - Right? Right? That they are making a 40 core GPU Macs that has

01:38:26   those RAM configurations. And then they're making a 13 core one that has the different

01:38:32   RAM configurations. And that's just how they've decided to do it. - I hadn't clicked around on

01:38:38   this page and it is much more daunting, I think, than I thought before. - Little whack-a-mole game,

01:38:46   right? - Yes, it is like that. - No, I want this one. No, no, it moved. It changed. Now the memory

01:38:51   is different. Why is it different? - Don't be silly. 48 gigabytes feels like such a high

01:38:57   starting point, but I guess you're already in, you know, when you go into the M3 Macs,

01:39:01   you're already in. - You bought the Max Max, right? - Yeah, what do you want? - You bought the Max Max

01:39:05   at that point. So you should get it max. It's already maxed. - Max it out. They're helping you

01:39:10   out. They're helping you, well, it's not even maxed out, but it helps you max it a little bit.

01:39:13   - Yeah, I mean, at that point it's $36.99 to start. Like it's, yeah. - We've got about five or six

01:39:21   variations of the following question. Alex says, "With the M3's big focus on graphical performance,

01:39:27   it seems like the perfect fit for the Vision Pro with all the graphical computing that it has

01:39:31   to do. Do you think Apple might say, 'Just kidding, the Vision Pro is coming with the M3 chip rather

01:39:38   than the M2 chip.'" - I don't think so. I think they designed it like a year ago. I think that it's...

01:39:44   - I don't think it needs it. - It is what it is. - People, I've seen a lot of people, and again,

01:39:48   the questions and people online talking about it like, "Oh, surely it's going to be the M3. How

01:39:52   could they release it and say it has an M2?" Like, I just don't, they didn't build it for the M3.

01:39:58   Like also, do you know what? Like the Vision Pro has the R1 chip. Other computers don't have that,

01:40:03   right? Like there's two chips in this product that's powering it is what we know, right? And

01:40:12   I just feel like there's no need to desire a different chip in it than the one that it has.

01:40:18   Like they have made it with that in mind. And so... - And with the power envelope in mind and the

01:40:24   heat envelope in mind and all of those things about it, that's what it's for. Plus you're right,

01:40:27   it's got the R1 chip in there. And again, when the Vision Pro comes out, I doubt that people

01:40:32   are going to be like, "But M2." They're going to be like, "Oh, Vision Pro," right? Like that's,

01:40:37   it's, you know, that's what it's going to be. - But it's like, they also didn't put the M2 Max

01:40:42   in there, did they? You know, like, right? They had more power available to them if they wanted it,

01:40:49   but they decided to settle and build around a certain configuration. - About the M2. - Look,

01:40:53   they might do it. I doubt it. They might, but I doubt it. I just think that it's not,

01:40:59   I don't think it's worth worrying about, right? Like if, for example, if they'd never told you

01:41:05   that it had an M2 in it, then you wouldn't be worried, right? If they said like, it has an R1

01:41:10   and an F2 in it or whatever, you'd just be like, "Oh, well, they're the Vision Pro chips." Like,

01:41:15   you just wouldn't think about it. I don't have an M2 in my AirPods. You know, like it's like,

01:41:21   the products have what they have and they designed them for that. I wouldn't worry too much about one,

01:41:26   about it being where it is. 'Cause as well, like when the Vision Pro comes out,

01:41:31   there's still going to be a lot of computers that still have an M2 in them, including the Mac Pro.

01:41:36   So that's going to stick around for a while, I expect. Jordan says, "For the M3 series,

01:41:45   why do you think Apple emphasized the power, savings, and efficiency when seemingly the

01:41:50   same process received no power saving mention in the A17 Pro chip for the iPhone? Could it be

01:41:57   the efficiency gains are only apparent when scaled up to Mac performance level?

01:42:02   Perhaps it could be meaningful for the iPad?" I think Apple is focused on comparing itself to

01:42:09   PC laptops and especially PC laptops, but also past Apple laptops and showing off the fact that

01:42:17   they, this is the game, right? Like they may not, some laptops may be able to beat them in GPU

01:42:23   overall, but not at the power level. And that's the thing that they're trying to say,

01:42:29   it's for battery life and running it with not plugged in and being able to do it. And I think

01:42:35   it's just a key part of how they do Mac marketing is to do it that way. I think they're less

01:42:40   concerned about it for the iPhone than they are for the Mac. So I think it's, I do think it's

01:42:45   that simple. It is, you know, I've heard people say this and I think it is interesting that the

01:42:50   M3 process in the A17 Pro did not seem to change the efficiency of the iPhone. Like battery life

01:42:58   did not improve. But then also, you know, Ben Thompson's been talking about this a lot,

01:43:04   stuff that I don't completely understand, but that this M3, sorry, this three nanometer chip

01:43:11   in the Mac is not the same three nanometer process that the iPhone chip was made from.

01:43:16   - We don't know, but it sounds like it's possible that this is this new TSMC process that is going

01:43:22   to ship in the fall, which is now. It's possible that this is a different process than the A17

01:43:29   Pro chip. We don't know, but it is possible that that's the case.

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01:45:02   and Relay FM. Next question comes from Carter. Do you think that Apple not updating the iMac

01:45:09   accessories of USB-C means that we might see a more significant revision of these accessories

01:45:14   when they do update them? Uh, maybe? I think that's not a bad thing. Like the idea is,

01:45:20   why? And we should say a lot of people are like, but the EU banned Lightning. It's like,

01:45:25   that's not the case. Existing products can continue to be sold. It's new products

01:45:29   that they want to have USB-C. Um, so it doesn't, they can keep these for as long as they want.

01:45:35   I think there's something to Carter's question here, which is Apple seems to want to only update

01:45:40   these when they are motivated to. And if you're going to go through a cycle, especially since we

01:45:43   know when you redesign a keyboard trackpad or mouse on for Apple, it's for like a decade.

01:45:49   They don't update them very often at all. Um, I think there have essentially only been two

01:45:55   generations of magic trackpad, right? And that goes back like 15 years. Um, so maybe even longer,

01:46:02   uh, 20 years, it, they last for ever. So when you do it, it should matter. Now they did update the

01:46:10   magic keyboard because they wanted to do touch ID. And so they did that. So I guess that's the

01:46:16   question is if Apple's going to make a new mouse, are they going to just put the USB-C hole in where

01:46:23   the lightning hole is? Are they going to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no new mouse. Let's make this.

01:46:30   What do we know about people using max today who have a mouse and what can we do there? And,

01:46:35   and trackpad the same way, like what about the magic trackpad that's current could be better.

01:46:40   Uh, is it the Bluetooth in it? Is it the, uh, this touch sensor? Is there something to be done there?

01:46:46   Could there be an under glass touch ID? Um, all of these things are possible. I'm sure they have

01:46:51   those conversations and yeah, I think there's something to that idea, Carter, that you don't

01:46:59   need to change them. And when you do change them, you very rarely get the opportunity. So if you're

01:47:04   going to do it, make it last and have it be a real update. Otherwise, why are you even doing it? But

01:47:11   I think that that could be the answer is that if all they were going to do with slap USB-C

01:47:17   ports onto the existing ones, they maybe could have done that. But at that point, you're opening

01:47:23   the box and you're changing the equipment inside and that, and you should probably do a more

01:47:28   substantive update than that. And please touch ID, you know, touch ID trackpad. Maybe that's why

01:47:34   we can, we can dream, you know, I mean, that's my dream is, is that all these rumors about Apple

01:47:39   trying to get touch ID to be under a surface were not for the iPhone, but they're, they're,

01:47:44   they're going to use that. They're going to deploy it in the one place where it really should be,

01:47:47   which is on the external trackpad. They're not going to do it, but would dream dare to dream.

01:47:52   Wouldn't that be nice? Jeff asks, we didn't see a bigger iMac nor bigger iPad this year.

01:47:58   Which do you think will be released first? Which do you think could be more appealing to customers

01:48:03   and which would be more appealing to you? Bigger Mac, bigger iMac, bigger iPad. So we'll say iMac

01:48:09   Pro, bigger iPad Pro. I am a user of a big iPad Pro. I am intrigued by the idea of a bigger iPad

01:48:20   Pro, although I don't think I would get it. And iMac, I have bought big iMacs in the past.

01:48:26   At this point, I'm pretty much in the studio display with a Mac Studio lifestyle or studio

01:48:31   display with a MacBook Air lifestyle. So I, I think a bigger iPad is likely to happen sooner

01:48:40   because, you know, Mark Gurman wrote about like bigger iPad is something that they're thinking

01:48:45   about and bigger iMac is something that they've sort of set aside and they might think about doing

01:48:49   it, but it's not going to be for a couple of years at least. I've heard through the grapevine that

01:48:53   like they ran the numbers and they're like, it doesn't make sense to make this product and they've

01:48:57   set it aside. But Gurman says they're still sort of thinking about it, but it's more like a 2025

01:49:02   thing. So I think maybe bigger iPad is going to happen sooner. I think more appealing to most

01:49:11   consumers is going to be a bigger iPad because I think that a giant, I mean, is a big iMac because

01:49:16   I think a giant iPad is a very specific use case. I think it could be cool for artists and, and,

01:49:22   you know, other people who want that giant canvas. But for most people, I think, you know, the,

01:49:27   a big iMac sold well in the past and could sell well again in the future.

01:49:31   Neither of them is particularly appealing to me at this point.

01:49:33   Matt Walter,

01:49:57   I think that when it comes to Macs, people want laptops now, right? Primarily more than anything

01:50:06   else. And I think a big iPad could maybe be something that people would be excited about.

01:50:11   And it might be one of those things that I don't know, sells well at the beginning,

01:50:15   but probably wouldn't over time. Maybe it would taper off.

01:50:23   Swifty says, do you think we are finally starting to see hints of a regular update schedule for Macs

01:50:30   and M series chips? One can hope.

01:50:35   No.

01:50:36   One can hope.

01:50:38   I think it all comes down to the chip generations, right? So we had our,

01:50:43   you know, the chip generation seemed to be going in 18 months ish intervals.

01:50:51   Yeah, I don't know if, if everything is almost everything on an 18 month schedule or not,

01:50:56   like not the iMac, but everything else, maybe, maybe. But, uh, I, I think that the,

01:51:04   the MacBook pro coming out now less than a year is different. And the pro chips coming out now

01:51:13   and Macs chips instead of in the spring is different. We have more data, but I don't know if,

01:51:20   if we can sift through the noise to find out what Apple's ideal is.

01:51:23   Apple's ideal is probably every 18 months for the Mac and laptops on that 18 month cycle

01:51:31   and desktops on either an 18 month cycle or a 36 month cycle is my guess. Um, but I,

01:51:39   I'm still not sure, like, I'm still not sure. I thought the Mac studio wasn't going to get

01:51:44   updated in them too. And in fact they did, and they did the Mac pro. So is there an M three

01:51:49   pro and ultra or max and ultra max studio and Mac pro. I think I'm, I'm the kind of person

01:51:56   actually who believes that now that Apple has its own chips, Apple actually does want to update all

01:52:01   its computers with its new chips. I actually do believe that's the case. I think Apple wants,

01:52:06   if it's an 18 month cycle, Apple does want a new Mac pro every 18 months and does want a new

01:52:12   Mac studio every 18 months. I think that that's the ideal. And that when something like the iMac

01:52:17   goes a generation, I think it's because of timing reasons or because it's a lower priority and

01:52:22   something else came in front of it and the stuff that matters most to them, which is the Mac book

01:52:27   air and Mac book pro those are going to be in every single cycle. So we're starting to see it,

01:52:32   but there's still some noise in this. So, uh, but, but, but to answer, uh, Swifty's question

01:52:39   hints, I mean, we've seen hints of it, but like, I'm not positive, but it feels like Apple wants

01:52:46   this chip cycle to be 18 months and once all its major products updated within each cycle.

01:52:52   I hope, cause I just like it, but, and I, and I, and I'm confident that they would like it too,

01:52:59   but it doesn't seem like it's been smooth sailing, but the difference is when it isn't,

01:53:05   they have more levers they can pull than when it was with Intel, right? Like when Intel wasn't

01:53:09   smooth sailing, everything just came to a grinding halt for a long time. And at least Apple is able

01:53:15   to do whatever they're able to do, maybe have more leverage than they did in the Intel relationship

01:53:20   to make it work the way they want. But I think they'd be more than happy to just put their new

01:53:25   chip in, in every product in their line and every generation. I think that that is at least so far,

01:53:33   I think that's the goal that seems to be the goal and it may not always work out, but I think that's

01:53:38   the goal, right? It's hard not to look at the, all the accolades that they have thrown out there for

01:53:43   the M3 Max and not imagine that next year there will be an M3 Max Studio and an M3 Max Mac Pro,

01:53:51   like it's, or an M3 Ultra Mac Pro. It's just very hard to imagine that they would be like,

01:53:57   "No, no, no, no, we'll just wait for the M4." Like, I just, I don't think that's what they

01:54:02   want to do unless there's a problem, right? Something that comes up and I think that's what

01:54:07   happened with the iMac where they're like, "We just, you know, missed it." And now it's the

01:54:11   first of the next generation instead because we, that's where we are now. And finally, Tim wants

01:54:16   to know what we think the default laptop is going to be now for most people. Is it going to be this

01:54:21   M3 MacBook Pro or is it going to be the M2 MacBook Air? I think the default laptop is the MacBook Air

01:54:27   because of the price. I think it should be, like this is, I've been banging this drum for ages,

01:54:32   that I think the M2 MacBook Air is like the best computer ever and people should just use that.

01:54:37   I just don't know if corporate is going to change. Maybe the price will make them change, right?

01:54:43   But here's the thing, it's default laptop. Like the MacBook Air sells, sold better than the 13-inch

01:54:50   MacBook Pro did. The MacBook Air is the default laptop. I think there's nothing here in introducing

01:54:56   a more expensive MacBook Pro base model that will rest any, you know, championship built away from

01:55:07   the MacBook Air. It's still going to be the champion. In fact, I think it's going to be

01:55:11   more so the champion because some percentage of people who would have bought a 1399 or 1299 MacBook

01:55:18   Pro with a touch bar, some percentage of them are not going to buy that 1599 MacBook Pro 14-inch.

01:55:26   They're going to go to the MacBook Air and, you know, you've got 1299 for the 15-inch. So there's

01:55:36   your 1299 price point, right? It's the 15-inch Air and then there's the 13-inch Air at 1099.

01:55:44   And I realize there are going to be some buyers, people and corporations who don't want to buy a

01:55:47   MacBook Air and they're going to probably bite the bullet and go for that 1599 Pro. But like,

01:55:53   I think it's Apple's hope and I share this hope that some of those buyers look at that 15-inch

01:56:00   Air specifically because I think that there's, it's not just a bias against the Pro versus Air

01:56:04   name. I think it's a bias against small screens. So it's an Air but it's a 15-inch Air. I think

01:56:15   Apple's hoping that they will make some inroads into corporate sales with that product too.

01:56:20   - Yeah, that'd be funny, right? If this is how they sell the 15-inch Air is by introducing a

01:56:26   more expensive MacBook Pro. - Yeah, yeah. I would love to know the percentage of potential

01:56:31   MacBook Pro buyers at the low end who go to the more expensive Pro versus go to the 15-inch Air

01:56:38   versus go to the 13-inch Air. I wonder what that will be. But I do think that those buyers will

01:56:44   get scattered across those. I think that the Air is still the default and will in fact, yes, be

01:56:50   a higher percentage of Apple's total laptop sales than before because some of those MacBook Pro

01:56:57   buyers will fall out going from $1299 to $1599. They will fall out and go to the Air instead.

01:57:05   - If you would like to send us your questions for a future episode, please go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:57:11   You can also send in your follow-up for us there as well. You can check out Jason's articles about

01:57:17   these products and I'm sure more writing about them over the coming weeks over at sixcolors.com.

01:57:22   You can hear Jason's shows here on Relay FM and at the incomparable.com. You'll also find me here

01:57:27   on Relay FM and check out my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find us on Mastodon. Jason is at

01:57:33   jsnell on zeppelin.flights and I am at imike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social. The show is on Mastodon

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01:58:15   week it's Vitaly, Notion, Delete Me, and Ladda. We'll be back next week for some money money

01:58:22   money money talk because it's earnings time. Thank you for listening to this episode of Upgrade.

01:58:29   We'll be back next time. Until then, say a spooky goodbye Jason Snow. Ahhh goodbye! Ahhhhh!

01:58:36   [Music]