485: Best Witch and Beast Feature


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 485 for November 6th, 2023.

00:00:16   Today's show is brought to you by Wild Grain, Squarespace and Ooni Pizza Ovens.

00:00:21   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell!

00:00:25   Hi, Mike Hurley. How was it November? How did that happen?

00:00:27   Isn't that an incredible thing, you know? The holidays will be here before you know it.

00:00:33   Yeah, really, really. The holiday upgrade episode planning has already begun.

00:00:38   It has already begun. I actually have some information about something before the holidays,

00:00:42   a little bit later on in the show, but that's not what we're doing right now. Right now,

00:00:45   we're doing Snell talk. This question comes from Paul from the 508 and they say,

00:00:51   "Mr. Snell talked a bunch about inviting Mr. Cook from Apple to a cow football game.

00:00:57   We never heard if Mr. Cook accepted the offer, politely declined or never responded.

00:01:01   Love to your mothers." Okay, he's doing a TV talk machine.

00:01:04   Oh, I know. I kept that all in there. He's from Massachusetts. Love to your mothers.

00:01:08   I know it. That goes back to the old TV talk machine days, one of my favorite podcasts of all

00:01:14   time. Paul, it was a bit. I was doing a bit there. Tim Cook doesn't listen to this podcast and

00:01:23   apparently his people don't listen or if they do listen, they don't care. I don't know. I was just

00:01:28   doing a bit because Cal was playing Auburn. I thought that was fun. I know you were doing a bit.

00:01:31   Stranger things have happened, right? I think I said something on the episode afterward

00:01:39   about just in passing about Tim not being there. But regardless, Tim, I don't know if Tim was

00:01:45   there. I never saw any pictures of Tim attending the game, which is really kind of a bummer. I know

00:01:49   it was right before the iPhone event, but it's his beloved Auburn Tigers and they were in

00:01:53   the Bay Area where he lives now. Maybe if it doesn't matter, he would rather just see them

00:01:58   at home because he can just get a, I don't know what, a private jet to take him there.

00:02:05   But they were right in his backyard basically. I didn't see any pictures of whether he was there

00:02:10   or not, but I didn't see the game on TV because I was there. It was a game that Cal should have won

00:02:14   and yet they managed to not, which is Cal in a nutshell. Anyway, that's the answer, Paul,

00:02:19   from the 508 Massachusetts. Love to your mothers. It's Cal lost. Brutal. Oh, just to get all the

00:02:27   TVTM stuff in there. It was terrible. That's all. If you would like to send in a question to help us

00:02:33   open a future episode of the show, you could write in over upgradefeedback.com and submit your own

00:02:40   Snow Talk question. Thank you to Paul for doing so. I mentioned the end of the year. One of the

00:02:46   things that happens at the end of the year is the upgradees. They're coming back. The 10th annual

00:02:54   upgradees. If you can believe such a thing. I can't believe it. 10th annual upgradees. Remember when

00:03:01   we didn't do the first annual because you don't do a first annual? Well, no. Now we're at the 10th.

00:03:06   Well, one of us said it. The other one refused it. But look at us now, Jason. Look at us now.

00:03:12   Look at us now. The 10th annual upgradees. It is one of those things where I'm like, hang on,

00:03:17   I'm confused. How are we at 10? How can that be? Because you forget that we've been going for nine

00:03:24   years, but you count at one. But we started very soon. The first upgradees, we had only been doing

00:03:32   the show for three months. So the 10th annual upgrade precedes the 10th anniversary of upgrade.

00:03:37   It's true. True story. It seems to me honestly, a little bit weird that we or me had the bravado

00:03:46   of an award show for a show that had been going for three months or something. I think you were

00:03:51   trying to make me feel at home in my new world by harnessing the energy that I used to have over the

00:03:58   years for the Eddie Awards and pouring it into the upgradey awards. That would make sense why I did

00:04:04   that. I think so. But now, Eddie's who? Right? It's all about the upgradees now. Yeah. How long

00:04:12   were the Eddie's going for? Oh, for, I mean, forever. No, I'm just wondering how long do we

00:04:17   have to go for? Because this is never going to end. I think it's a long time. I think that from the

00:04:21   80s to when I left, so a long time. I mean, even if me and you retire, somebody else can pick up

00:04:27   the upgradees. Okay. All right. We'll get there. We'll get there. There can be a second generation

00:04:33   of upgrade. You know, like we could have other people take over one day. Anyway, upgradees.vote.

00:04:40   You can send in your nominations now until December 5th. We're going to be releasing the

00:04:47   episode on December 18th this year for the 10th annual upgradees. So please go to upgradees.vote.

00:04:54   You can see previous winners at upgradees.com if you would like to go and peruse the previous

00:05:00   winners of the upgradees. We are doing the same format as last year where we combined

00:05:08   some nominations and we added in TV last year, I believe, because we had favorite

00:05:15   movies. Did we have TV before? Anyway, we have favorite movies, favorite TV, and we've added a

00:05:19   new category. So Jason suggested a best widget category, which I thought was a good idea. Which

00:05:25   I sent to you from a run using Siri and so it came across as a witch category. Best Witch.

00:05:32   My favorite is Agatha. Agatha is my favorite witch. Best Witch. Oh, I'm gonna go with Samantha

00:05:39   Stevens from Bewitched. Classic sitcom. Actually, maybe Sabrina the Teenage. Oh, that's a good one.

00:05:46   A lot of great nominees for Best Witch. Maybe we'll do Best Witch this year, you know. Maybe

00:05:51   we're going to do that. So, but my concern was that maybe next year there won't be a lot of

00:05:56   excitement in widgets. So we're adding a new category. I'm sorry, Jason. I opened the form

00:06:05   and I wrote Beast Feature. The form. Maybe it could be. So Best Witch and Beast Feature

00:06:13   are two new categories. Please enjoy the Beast Feature. Yeah, so I wanted it to be a widget and

00:06:20   Mike said, no, no, no. Why don't we make it a feature? Because then it can be broader.

00:06:25   Although this year will probably be a widget. Yeah, no. What I have to say, we'll do Best

00:06:28   Feature. Widgets is going to be the thing that we're asking for this year and then next year

00:06:33   there's something else. So it might be something else. Right. Yeah. I've changed it back now to

00:06:38   Best Feature. So we're looking for your favorite widget and then next year maybe it will be like a

00:06:44   Vision OS kind of thing. Who knows, right? What we're going to be looking at as our best feature.

00:06:48   Oh man, yeah, you're right. It could be. So I thought it might be something where we can say.

00:06:52   Best immersive experience or something. Could be, right? So this is a good addition because

00:06:57   what I like about this is it will allow us to award apps that may have otherwise not been,

00:07:05   maybe a best overall app or something, but maybe have like a really cool new feature. So,

00:07:11   and hey, maybe brings in the ability for some lifetime achievement award winners to get another

00:07:18   nod. You know, maybe so. Yeah. So please go to upgradees.vote and cast your vote.

00:07:26   If you enjoy this show, by the way, you'd like more of it. Who wouldn't? Go to getupgradeplus.com

00:07:34   and you can subscribe for $5 a month or $50 a year. Thank you so much to those of you that do.

00:07:39   If you do subscribe to Upgrade Plus, then you will get a longer version of the show every week. And

00:07:46   And this week, Jason, I want to talk to you about audio hijacks, transcription block,

00:07:51   we just added, so thought we could talk about that a little bit and Upgrade Plus, because

00:07:55   today is such an action packed episode that we wouldn't have space for otherwise.

00:07:59   No, that's true. It's a big one. Big episode.

00:08:04   Money, money, money, money, money money, money, money, money money. It's that time again,

00:08:10   Apple's Q4 results, we have some headline numbers and we'll dig into a few of them.

00:08:16   So, OK. Revenue, 89.5 billion dollars down 1% year over year. The iPhone brought in 43.8

00:08:25   billion up 3%. The Mac, 7.6 billion down 34%. iPad, 6.4 billion down 10%. Services, 22.3

00:08:38   billion up 16%. Wearables and home, 9.3 billion dollars down 3%. What jumps out at you specifically,

00:08:47   Jason? Is there anything particular in here that you wanted to touch on?

00:08:52   Well, part of it is expectations, which is the idea that like Wall Street, like Apple

00:09:00   set expectations and Wall Street had expectations and down 1%, which is essentially flat. While

00:09:07   that's sort of like another down quarter, I think they've had four or five in a row

00:09:12   where the revenue is lower than a year ago quarter, it is sort of in line with expectations.

00:09:18   It's a weird year for some things like the iPad didn't get any updates at all. And Apple

00:09:23   is coming off of a high in terms of Mac sales that I want to talk about in a second. And

00:09:28   so as a result, you're going to get some things that are down. Services is way up. There's

00:09:31   a lot of sort of speculation about that because the services number is up and the services

00:09:36   margin seems to be up. And there's a lot of theorizing because Apple didn't actually cite

00:09:41   any reason why. And I definitely saw, I think, Dunne Thompson speculated, is it possible

00:09:46   that they renegotiated their deal with Google that's under fire and it's even more profitable

00:09:51   than it was before? You wouldn't want to talk about that if that's the case. So it's unclear

00:09:55   about that. But generally, Apple is in one of these kind of flat periods. And the question

00:10:00   is, is Apple going to stay flat or is Apple going to go down or is it going to go up?

00:10:05   That's the story from here because it's very profitable. It actually is up year over year

00:10:09   in profits, which is interesting, but investors don't care about that. It's funny because

00:10:15   there are the people who are running the business and the people who are using the products

00:10:19   and then they're sort of like the investors. And it's a publicly held company, so you want

00:10:23   to please the investors. But as a user of the products, I don't care about what the

00:10:28   investors care about. However, what the investors care about can carry the day in terms of what

00:10:32   the goals of the company are. So it's interesting to watch this in the long run. Like there was

00:10:37   a, I would say, asinine story over the weekend in the information that basically said, "Hey,

00:10:42   Tim Cook's in his mid 60s and Apple's been flat for a year, so they should get rid of

00:10:47   Tim Cook." As if somehow age would equate to that. Well, yes. And he's going to have

00:10:53   to wait 10 years until he's in his mid 70s to run for president, I guess. So, zing. Anyway,

00:10:59   that one took a little second to simmer on my brain. My point is that, yes, he's dramatically

00:11:07   younger than people who are president and who have run for president and who have been

00:11:11   president recently. Like he's dramatically younger. But anyway, oh yes, yeah, Tim Cook,

00:11:15   a vibrant mid 60s man with gray hair. Yeah, I mean, get him out. Honestly, probably fitter

00:11:23   than me. I mean, he's fitter than most. Not to say, I mean, they were basically saying

00:11:30   succession plan and all that, but like, come on. I think there are succession plans and

00:11:35   that they've been reported on. Mark Ehrman has talked about it. It's a little bit silly

00:11:39   anyway. But hey, what I would say is that shows you what happens when one of the world's

00:11:46   biggest, most valuable and most profitable companies has four or five quarters where

00:11:51   their revenue is slightly down year over year is the knives start to come out just for that.

00:11:55   And that is just the way it works. So, I want to note that in the down 1% and the improvement

00:12:02   in profit that Apple, where does it go from here? And is it a growth stock anymore? Is

00:12:07   it a growth enterprise or is it more maintaining their profitability and investors will react

00:12:13   accordingly? I want to mention iPhone being up because iPhone even being up a little is

00:12:17   good because that's the crown jewels and if it's down, it really hurts them. But the one

00:12:21   I want to zero in on the most is Mac. So, Mac down 34% year over year, right? And if

00:12:29   you look at the transcript, I did the transcript again of the analyst call, they have lots

00:12:39   of reasons why it's down year over year. They have lots of excuses, right? They're like,

00:12:43   well, it's a tough compare. I always say that. We had the shortage like in the two quarters

00:12:49   ago year ago quarter where there were the factory shutdowns and that pent up demand

00:12:52   and then we sold a lot the next two quarters, not just the next one quarter, but the next

00:12:56   two quarters, which made it a tougher compare. And also the product didn't come out in the

00:13:01   same cycle because they don't tend to come out once every 12 months. They tend to be

00:13:06   a little off for that. And so that's why the Mac is down, but don't worry about it. The

00:13:10   Mac will be okay. It won't be as bad next time. It's sort of what they said, except

00:13:14   no, they're wrong. I don't agree.

00:13:20   There are times when I really do believe the tough compare because when you're comparing

00:13:23   against the year ago quarter and things don't align right, it does happen, right? Where

00:13:27   it's like, oh, our big product launch last year was in June and this year it was in September.

00:13:33   And so, you know, our June quarter doesn't match because we didn't do the big product

00:13:39   launch this year. Like that's reasonable, but to say that the Mac, oh no, no, no, it's

00:13:44   just those factory shutdowns in the Mac, like pull the other one. Is that how they say it

00:13:49   in, in, in, in England? Pull the other one. Something like that. So if you look, so this

00:13:56   also, and I'm going to do a story about this. This also closed the fiscal year for Apple,

00:14:00   which means you can roll up those fiscal year charts. And if you look at Apple's last four

00:14:04   fiscal years of Mac sales, or let's say last five, what you get is in billions, 26 for

00:14:13   the whole year, 26, 29, 35, 40, 29. That's not because of factory shutdowns last year,

00:14:25   right? What happened is the pandemic happened and, and Apple Silicon happened and Mac sales

00:14:31   shot up and now they're back down where they were in 2020, which is, I would say essentially

00:14:38   an all time high for the Mac. Other than these two pandemic years, it's the 2023 at 29 billion

00:14:44   is believe it or not the third biggest year in the Mac's history, only 21 and 22 were

00:14:48   bigger. So there's, the story is probably that Apple pulled a bunch of sales forward

00:14:56   and yet still managed to have a, uh, what before the last two years would have been

00:15:02   a banner year, which suggests to me that there's a, an expansion of the, of the Mac market

00:15:09   that went on in that time. I think it's also fair to say that the introduction of Apple

00:15:14   Silicon was the perfect time to write where then people that were going to buy a new laptop

00:15:20   during the pandemic may have more favorably looked at Apple than they would have otherwise,

00:15:25   because all of the reports and headlines and reviews were like, these things are incredible,

00:15:29   right? So it not only brought for it, the entire industry was seeing, seeing like the

00:15:35   bringing forward of purchases, right? And that maybe people would have more favorably

00:15:39   looked towards Apple than if they weren't necessarily in one camp or another. Yeah.

00:15:45   And it's the, um, the pulling forward and also expanding the ecosystem. I do, I do think

00:15:51   that probably what happened here, cause they talk about record numbers in the ecosystem

00:15:54   and record numbers for Mac install base, that that is one of the things that also happened.

00:15:59   It's not all pull forward. Cause if it was all pull forward, I would say that number

00:16:02   wouldn't be 29 billion in FY 23, it would be less. And the fact that they managed to

00:16:08   beat their FY 20 number, which is also 29 billion, but it was, it was less. That's I'm

00:16:13   rounding here. Uh, so I think two things can be true here, right? One is I think the Mac

00:16:19   is down because it's down, not because of the weird things in the supply chain last

00:16:25   year. I think it's down because it's down and, but it's not down in the way of like,

00:16:29   well, people stop buying max. That's not it. It's more like you're dealing with, you're

00:16:33   dealing with, uh, an industry or a, you know, a financial industry that looks at growth

00:16:40   rates and you're trying to explain why you're way down year over year. But I think if you

00:16:46   look at the bigger picture, you can see that they seem to have returned to the high point

00:16:52   before the spike. And I think that's positive for Apple in Mac sales because it means that

00:16:58   the Mac will probably still sales will probably still continue to grow. Plus they netted that

00:17:03   big spike for a couple of years. Yeah. It's like what happened to the iPhone, right? Like

00:17:08   right around the iPhone six time of like, there is a boost, you made a bunch of money

00:17:13   from that boost and then you're just going to go back down to what would have been a

00:17:20   growth that you were on otherwise. Right. And they, that, that was just like a one thing

00:17:24   for you that you profited from. And then you have to kind of deal with the, Hey, why is

00:17:28   it not like this all the time thing for a little bit. But, but if, if there were any,

00:17:33   if an investors were out there, and again, the Mac is a small portion of the business,

00:17:35   but investors are out there saying, Oh yeah, now like we, we had this conversation I think

00:17:39   a year or two ago, which was okay. The Mac was in the single digits until the iPhone

00:17:45   came out and then it just started growing. And then it spent most of the 2010s in the

00:17:50   twenties, not the teens, the teens were only very briefly, it shot into the 20 billion

00:17:56   a year business. And it was in the 20 billion a year business for 10 years in the 2011 to

00:18:03   2020. And then it shot up to 35 and 40. And we all had that conversation. Like is the

00:18:09   Mac a thirties. Billion a year business, or is it a forties billion a year business or

00:18:15   where is it? And this year at 29 billion, what I would say is the Mac is probably more

00:18:21   like a $30 billion a year business. Maybe growing into the thirties over the next few

00:18:28   years, what it's not is a $40 billion a year business or a $35 billion a year business.

00:18:34   And I will say it also didn't go down to in the low twenties because everybody bought

00:18:39   a Mac and now they're not going to buy Macs for the next few years. That didn't seem to

00:18:43   happen which is good for, for the Mac, I think. So anyway, that, that is, but I do have to

00:18:50   call Apple's reasoning out because I know that they're dealing with a lot of financial

00:18:53   analysts whose memory only goes back to the year ago quarter, right? Like they don't even

00:18:58   think about big picture stuff. Cause it's all about now, now, now, now, now, but I don't

00:19:02   think it's a reasonable explanation for the Mac performance because it is the down 34%.

00:19:08   It really is kind of, of a piece with the rest of Mac performance over the last year.

00:19:12   They had a down year compared to those two great years. You can think about it in context

00:19:17   and it makes a lot more sense.

00:19:19   It's also like, um, the, if they were to say that the iPad is a tough compare, right? Cause

00:19:25   like the iPad is down 10% and it's like, well, tough compare is you didn't release any products.

00:19:31   No new iPads for the, for a whole year. So it's down. So really the tough compare is

00:19:37   you didn't do it. And it's not like they didn't sell iPads. They sold $6.4 billion with iPads,

00:19:42   which is a lot of iPads. It's a lot of iPads, but they didn't have, you know, you do a new

00:19:46   model and then there's a sales spike cause people are like waiting and then they buy.

00:19:52   And otherwise it's just people kind of drifting in like a friend of mine just bought an iPad

00:19:56   and it was his first iPad in, uh, in several years. And you know, he thought about it and

00:20:02   thought about it and he said, Jason, are they coming? I was like, don't think they're coming

00:20:05   this year. And he's like, all right, I'm going to go to the Apple store and get an iPad. And

00:20:09   that's that, that happens, right? There is this kind of like underlying kind of sales

00:20:14   of, of products that are just out there, but new products change things.

00:20:20   And $6 billion in a quarter where there is still no new products is that is impressive.

00:20:26   Right. Right. But the, you know, if you're trying to talk about it in terms of growth,

00:20:31   you're like, well, it didn't grow. And the answer is it didn't grow because there was

00:20:34   nothing new. It's completely explainable in a way I accept that I don't accept about the

00:20:39   Mac. I mean, I don't doubt that it was a tough compare, but it doesn't matter because in

00:20:44   the end the Mac was down like for the whole year, the Mac was down from a peak and that's

00:20:50   just how it was. So I wish they would have owned that and spun that a little differently

00:20:56   that, you know, we, we saw a bunch of uptake. We think it really expanded our install base

00:21:00   and they didn't, they just went with the sort of laziest, uh, kind of like, oh, well tough

00:21:04   compare, you know, and okay. It's like they launched a new Mac Mac that's never existed

00:21:09   before, right? The 15 inch MacBook air. And it seems to have kind of just like been a

00:21:13   bit of a wet blanket. Yeah. And so, you know, and so the question is, well, you had a new

00:21:18   product that why didn't I do well for you, right? Like there was something new that didn't

00:21:23   exist before. You should have been able to capture more money and it didn't happen. And

00:21:26   instead they were like, oh, but we're really excited about the new products that we introduced

00:21:29   a couple of days ago. It was like, okay, all right, that's fine. I think in that Macbook

00:21:34   air, you know, I think we all know the reasons why it maybe hasn't sold as well as they had

00:21:38   hoped. It was out of cycle. A lot of the people who were going to buy a Mac book air already

00:21:43   bought a Mac book air. I still think the 15 inch air is going to be a hit over time, but

00:21:49   a late in the M2 cycle, larger version of an existing laptop that had already been out

00:21:55   for a year. You know, it's, it's, that is not going to spike sales, right? That's going

00:22:01   to sell with people who just wander into the Apple store, but it was weirdly timed. And

00:22:07   so, I mean, we'll watch it. Maybe it is a, a not successful product, but I ha I still

00:22:12   think it's going to be pretty popular down the road, but it obviously didn't light things

00:22:18   on fire because the Mac was down 34% and they didn't even highlight it as, Oh, but the Macbook

00:22:22   air sales were good. They didn't say a word. So, Hey Apple, I've got an idea for you. You

00:22:26   want to sell a bunch of Macbook airs? You know that iMac comes in a bunch of colors,

00:22:30   Macbook air, a bunch of colors. Easy. Done. Job done. Interesting. I think it's interesting.

00:22:34   If I see someone's going to get me on these analysts calls, you know, are they still making

00:22:38   the iMac mic? Are they still making that? They are, Jason. Oh, okay. We're going to

00:22:42   talk about that a little later on in the episode. Uh, but yeah, the only other thing that stuck

00:22:47   out to me was that there was a 16% increase year over year in services and doesn't really

00:22:54   seem to be necessarily accounted for, you know, like on the earnings call that we have

00:22:59   new, new games and new content. And it's like, yeah, but it wasn't like you had some breakout

00:23:03   hit in the quarter. Um, and yeah, that we don't know what that is and we probably never

00:23:10   will. Yeah. What, what is it exactly? And is it perhaps, um, the, again, the Google

00:23:16   deal, you can see why they wouldn't want to talk about that. Yeah. Especially right now.

00:23:20   Yeah. And he got asked about, about AI, right? And they did, they did a version of their

00:23:25   same answer, which is we use AI everywhere. Although he did, he did say, you know, we're

00:23:30   still, we're still working on stuff. We got, let me read the quote. We got stuff. Okay.

00:23:35   Tim said in terms of generative AI, obviously we have work going on. We're investing quite

00:23:40   a bit. We're going to do it responsibly and you will see product advancements over time

00:23:44   where those technologies are at the heart of them. What I find interesting about the

00:23:49   wording of this quote is it, it reeks of you dummy in a way that this kind of stuff tends

00:23:57   not to, whereas like, obviously we have work going on. It's like the way I read that,

00:24:02   which is like, I don't know, they don't, it's just like a different kind of vibe there,

00:24:07   which is just like, well, we're not sleeping on our hands here. Like we know what the rest

00:24:11   of the industry is doing. We are also doing things, you know, it has a different tone.

00:24:18   I wanted to mention the vision pro quote because I just think it's interesting because they're

00:24:24   trying to calibrate vision pro for the financial industry and to kind of like talk about where

00:24:28   they're going. So they talk about, they talked up, it's nothing new to upgrade listeners,

00:24:32   right? We talked about the developer labs and he characterized those as like he said,

00:24:39   they're classic Apple speak. There's some real blow away kind of things that are coming

00:24:44   out of the developer labs. But still what he's saying is he's saying, Hey, remember,

00:24:50   we've got this amazing developer, third party developer story and app store and all of that.

00:24:56   And let me tell you, they're working on vision pro and it's great, right? Is that self-serving?

00:24:59   Of course it is. Right. But like, that's what he's trying to get across there is we've done

00:25:03   these developer things and we're being blown away by what we see there. And then they said,

00:25:08   the question was, is this going to ramp up sales like AirPods or Apple watch? And he

00:25:13   said, no, there's never been a product like vision pro. We also know that they don't have

00:25:17   enough of them to sell like that. But he says, we're purposely bringing out in our stores

00:25:21   only so we can put a great deal of attention on the last mile of it. We'll be offering

00:25:25   demos in the stores and it will be a very different process than a normal grab and go

00:25:28   kind of process. And I think you and I talked about last week that like they're getting,

00:25:33   they're recruiting people from retail to come and get trained on the vision pro kind of

00:25:38   like experience. And they're, they're setting up places in identifying places in the retail

00:25:44   stores where they can do that. Like it's, it's going to be a hands-on process. And while

00:25:50   you may be able to finagle one without spending, you know, a lot of time in the store, maybe,

00:25:56   although they're going to want to match your, your face to the light seal. And they're going

00:26:01   to want to get your information about glasses or things like that. But the truth is also,

00:26:05   um, they're going to be hard to come by. And so they're erecting a barrier that's going

00:26:10   to create a, you know, supposedly a superior user experience for buying. Um, but they're

00:26:15   also, it limits how many they can sell, which is fine because they, there are only so many

00:26:19   of them that they can sell. Anyway, this episode is brought to you by wild grain, the first

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00:26:51   Uh, we had three loaves. There was some dessert that we haven't had yet. And then there were

00:26:57   some pasta, some fresh pasta that was frozen. Uh, and I can, Mike, I can exclusively report

00:27:01   on this episode of upgrade that we had our last of the, of the frozen, uh, bread loaves,

00:27:08   which you just pop in the oven. And so it's always, it's like, it's not dough. It's, it's

00:27:13   like baked, but I think it's not baked all the way. So you, you put it in straight out

00:27:19   of the freezer and it obviously warms up and then it browns on the outside and then you

00:27:23   take it out and it is indistinguishable from fresh baked bread from dough. So we had that

00:27:28   our last one of those really great. And, uh, our pasta last night was, uh, was the frozen

00:27:34   fresh pasta. And as opposed to dry pasta, fresh pasta just has a different texture.

00:27:41   It's really soft and, and nice. And that was really great. We had some spaghetti with the,

00:27:46   with our, our preferred red sauce and that we make, uh, and the, the fresh pasta and

00:27:53   they were the wide, they were wide long noodles, like fettuccine kind of noodles. And then

00:27:57   we had, um, and we had, uh, the bread. So it was, it was real great. And, and it's just,

00:28:03   it's, it's remarkable because, um, it happens pretty fast and yeah, you would never know

00:28:08   that it wasn't a bread loaf that you had hand crafted yourself from dough, but you don't

00:28:14   have to do that. You just take it out of the bag and pop it into the oven. You can fully

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00:28:49   to do is go to wild grain.com/upgrade. That is W I L D G R A I N.com/upgrade. Or you could

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00:29:05   show and relay FM. It is reviews day around here over on the upgrade program and of course

00:29:13   over at six colors.com. We're going to be talking about two different products. We're

00:29:19   going to start with your review of the M3 MacBook pro. What configuration did you have?

00:29:28   It is the big boy. 16 inch M3 max. That is indeed a big boy. Yeah. The definitive expensive

00:29:43   big boy. So I should say for people who are wondering, 16 processor cores of course, CPU

00:29:52   cores and 40 GPU cores. So yeah, you know, whatever. All of them. All the cores. You

00:29:56   had the 16 before, right? Like I think of the M2. Yeah. They're trolling me at this

00:30:01   point, right? Cause they know that I like little laptops and they're like, send him

00:30:05   the largest laptop possible. Cause it seems like different outlets get different computers.

00:30:10   Gruber got a 14 inch, but I got a 16 inch one. The verge got the M3, 14 inch MacBook

00:30:18   pro. They got the M3 and apparently they got a max or a pro. I don't know that Dan Seyfried

00:30:23   said he was going to review, but they also got the base model, which I find fascinating.

00:30:26   I got an iMac though, which we'll talk about later. Not everybody got an iMac. So, you

00:30:31   know, it was a, it was an assortment. So what also means is I haven't tried out the pro

00:30:37   chip, which is actually, I think in some ways the most interesting of the three, although

00:30:40   in some ways the max is the most interesting of the three cause that's where they really

00:30:43   pushed their performance to the limit. So, uh, okay. I'm wondering where to start with

00:30:51   this. Do you have any like big takeaways from it beforehand before I kind of dive into some

00:30:56   little details like, Oh, big takeaways. And this can be about either the machine or the

00:31:01   chip inside of the machine. I'd say my, let's see, my biggest takeaway is probably that

00:31:08   if you are running a M an M1 or M2 pro MacBook pro, you're fine. If you're running an M2

00:31:18   max MacBook pro, you're, you're probably fine. If you're running Intel or you're running

00:31:27   a, like an M1 max, like, cause, cause, and I say that because if like, if you're running

00:31:37   a pro chip, you're probably just going to get the pro chip and the pro chip is going

00:31:40   to be fine, but I don't think it's going to be, it's going to be a little faster, but

00:31:44   the big leap is what I'm trying to say is the big leap is the M3 max really is a lot

00:31:48   faster than previous maxes. It's faster in some ways than previous ultras. It is super

00:31:54   fast. So if you're one of those people who spent a lot of money on a very powerful computer,

00:32:00   the Mac pro in your backpack, essentially the one that starts at 3,500 and just goes

00:32:04   up from there, right? The, the most expensive, uh, laptop. If you're that person and you've

00:32:10   got the M1, you probably are going to want to sell that and get the M3 max because it

00:32:16   is a big leap. Um, and then coming from Intel, you know, again, it's like, there's never

00:32:22   been a better time other than the last two times, I guess, to get off of that Intel system.

00:32:25   And I've heard from a lot of people who are hanging on to late model Intel MacBook pros

00:32:30   who are obviously looking for that moment to jump. Um, and now is a, now is a, a perfectly

00:32:36   good time because it's the start of a new generation and this design that they is unchanged

00:32:41   really from the M1 MacBook pro, uh, with that great screen and the extra ports and the nice

00:32:47   keyboard and all of that stuff is still, uh, it's still a great design and unchanged for

00:32:52   that reason. You said in your review when testing the M3 max, a lot of my concerns are

00:32:58   alleviated by the fact that it just seems faster in every conceivable dimension than

00:33:04   its predecessors, usually by quite a lot. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. This is the way we

00:33:10   talked about this last week when we just talked about the chips, but like the M3 max is the

00:33:15   place where Apple poured on the performance. That's where they did it. They chose to take

00:33:20   the pro and differentiate it and make it more of a mid range chip, but the max they did

00:33:24   not. So the pro is sort of incrementally faster than the previous pro. The max is, is more

00:33:30   than incrementally faster than the previous max, right? The max is very impressive, which

00:33:34   also means that the M3 ultra should have arrived next year will be amazing, right? In, in those

00:33:38   high end systems. But, uh, for a laptop to have this kind of performance, it's, that

00:33:43   was the big leap. So again, most people don't need anything approaching that level of performance,

00:33:48   but if you are one of those people and we know those people, right? We know those people,

00:33:53   those are your, your Marcos, your, your David Smith's, you may, you know, maybe your James

00:33:59   Thompson. I don't know. Underscore was the first person that text and I was like, you're

00:34:03   going to get one. And he's like, I saw the numbers I'm going to get already ordered it.

00:34:08   Yeah. So those, you know, who you are, if you're one of those people who's like, I will

00:34:13   spend money for performance. I just want a laptop with performance. You should spend

00:34:17   the money because if, if your work can go 15% faster every year, why would you exactly,

00:34:24   exactly. If you're, if you are, um, doing X code or you're doing 3d renders or you're

00:34:30   doing video and codes or you're doing like anything, you know, it, if it's you and for

00:34:35   everyone, and this is why that Apple has positioned the M3 pro chip where it is, is like, you

00:34:39   know, if it's you and you will pay the premium because it's worth it for you. Most people

00:34:43   won't, most people don't need to. And the M3 pro is a more appropriate chip for them.

00:34:49   And we mentioned the M3 pro and we mentioned that it doesn't seem to be a lot of them out

00:34:53   there. Um, but there have been some benchmarks that leaked out and I think have been confirmed

00:35:00   at this point, um, that they, the M2, so the M3 pro is coming in at 14% increased performance

00:35:10   in single core over the M2 pro and 6% in multi-core, which makes sense, right? Because there are

00:35:16   fewer, is it fewer performance cores and more efficiency cores, right? In the M3 pro. So

00:35:23   I guess it makes sense. Um, I don't really know what to think of all of this about the

00:35:30   M3 pro chip realistically. Um, I don't really know where I land on it myself now. Like I

00:35:40   said, I mean, we'll see how people react to it, but I think the M2 pro, the whole idea

00:35:44   there is it's a, it's a mid range chip and there are a lot of people who are not going

00:35:48   to want the base model and they're going to want the extra features of the M2 pro and

00:35:51   it's going to be faster, but what it's not is M2 max mini anymore. It was before kind

00:35:57   of like M2 max mini. They, it came along for the ride and they're like, no, like it's,

00:36:02   it's really separate. Now the CPU configuration is totally different. Um, more, fewer, fewer,

00:36:09   uh, e-cores and more p-cores. I mean, in the end, the cores are faster and it's still faster.

00:36:14   It's just not taking the big leap because what they've decided is this is the super

00:36:18   expensive max chip. We will spend the money there on expensive features, but on the pro,

00:36:23   which is more popular, we're not going to spend the money on more expensive features

00:36:26   and make it because, because this is a volume chip and most people don't want to spend right.

00:36:31   They want it to be available at $2,000, not 3,500 and that's kind of a big part of the

00:36:37   difference there. So, uh, we'll see how people react, but I, I like the idea of it and I

00:36:43   think it's probably going to be very successful because most people just want the pro chip

00:36:46   and I think this pro chip will be, it feels to me looking at the numbers that I've seen

00:36:51   that it's, it's incremental in the same way the M2 pro is incremental. It's faster and

00:36:55   it's a very fast chip, but if you want the foot to the floor performance, that's the

00:37:01   max and you'll know if you want it because you're going to pay for it. You're going to

00:37:05   pay a lot for it. And the really the pro chip more than its raw power enables functionality

00:37:13   that is found to be important by many people as we keep hearing from about more than one

00:37:19   display, uh, more than one external display, right? So compare a couple of external displays

00:37:25   as well as the internal, um, and has different RAM and storage options of course. Right.

00:37:30   While we broke the seal on the display, I will say one thing that I thought of as I

00:37:34   was writing this review and I mentioned it in the review is I like that they start at

00:37:38   1599 with a MacBook pro. Now, instead of having that weird 13 inch model, you get the best

00:37:44   feature, which is the, the, the screen. Um, you lose a port, right? You lose the opposite

00:37:49   side port because the M3 like the M1 and the M2 just can't support that many ports. It's

00:37:54   kind of sad, but it's true. Doesn't have the second external display out only one external

00:37:59   display out because again, M3 like M2 and M1 Apple has chosen to not make that feature

00:38:05   a priority. However, and eight gigs of RAM, which I will make the argument, I think eight

00:38:09   gigs of RAM for lots of people is fine, but I think that what Apple's really doing is

00:38:13   assuming that, um, that a lot of people will configure it up and that, uh, corporate buyers

00:38:19   are already going to be bulking at it being 1599 and they weren't comfortable with the

00:38:23   cut margins. If they put 16 gigs at 1599 and they know most people who care are going to

00:38:28   configure it up and add $200 to the price immediately to get it to 16 gigs of RAM. And

00:38:33   that is a lot of margin for Apple. So that's kind of why they're doing it. I don't love

00:38:37   that. I will say this though, after looking at the store options and pondering it a little

00:38:41   bit more, I think if you care enough to upgrade the configuration in the Apple online store,

00:38:50   you should probably get the base model M3 Pro instead for 1999. Cause you're adding,

00:39:00   you're taking 1599 up to 1799 just for the RAM. You're so close to 1999, which comes

00:39:08   with 18 gigs of RAM. So, uh, unless you've got, unless the $200 is just not in your price

00:39:14   range. Like I think for a lot of discerning buyers that that low end model is still, even

00:39:19   though it's doesn't have a touch bar and stuff anymore. Right. And it's, it's a 14, it's

00:39:22   got the screen and all of that. It's still not that great. Like it's still sort of design.

00:39:28   Who is it designed for? And the answer is corporate buyers who have to have a MacBook

00:39:31   Pro, but do not want to spend more money and do not care that it's got eight gigs of RAM.

00:39:36   Uh, like people who will only buy a MacBook Pro, um, just won't buy a MacBook Air. I think

00:39:43   that it's still there for that. But as a, if you care at all, if you're discerning at

00:39:47   all, I feel like you should really consider still going up to that 1999 base model, um,

00:39:55   M2 pro laptop instead. So it's a, it's a peculiar, I mean, so con true connoisseurs of computers,

00:40:03   which are our audience and a bunch of the people on that I see on Mastodon and all of

00:40:07   that. Like I think they're going to turn their nose up at that low end macro pro and that's

00:40:11   fine because I think I would really argue it's not, it's not made for you. It's made

00:40:14   for the people who won't turn their nose up at it and we'll just say 1599 great. And what

00:40:20   they'll get is a slower processor and not a lot of RAM and, uh, but functional and a

00:40:27   beautiful screen.

00:40:28   The M3, this is a quote from you, the M3 max is so much faster that it's making me, even

00:40:34   me question my upgrade cycle. Can you dig into that a little more?

00:40:39   Uh, well I'm using, I'm speaking to you from an M1 max, max studio, right? I bought it

00:40:46   when the max studio came out and I look at the M3 max numbers and I think, uh, right?

00:40:54   Like cause it is, it is a lot faster. And I had a moment where I was running tests and

00:41:00   doing various things. Like I did a whisper transcription and I did a bunch of stuff on

00:41:04   the, on the MacBook pro and then I came and I was doing something else. I came to my desk

00:41:09   and I was working on stuff and I did another thing that was like another whisper, uh, transcription

00:41:14   or something like that. And I thought to myself, why is it so slow? Why is it running? So it

00:41:21   was just running fast. And then I thought, Oh, it wasn't running fast on this computer.

00:41:24   It was running fast on the laptop. That's the M3 max. Right. I just had that moment

00:41:29   where I thought, Oh yeah, if I really want the, you know, heavy duty stuff, the, um,

00:41:36   the video encodes, the audio processing and the transcriptions and other stuff like that.

00:41:41   If I, if I wanted to give them a, a real kick, uh, when there's an M3 max max studio, that

00:41:49   would be an upgrade that I could do. I'm not saying I will do it, but like it's given me

00:41:53   pause about it because this is a lot faster than the M1 max is that this is where you

00:41:59   really see the separation in the apple Silicon line in a way that I don't know if we've seen

00:42:04   this level of separation from a previous apple Silicon chip. Um, I think this might be the

00:42:09   first sort of big spread where you're like, Oh, you might even want to update from apple

00:42:14   Silicon to apple Silicon, which up to now you sort of haven't needed to do, but from

00:42:18   M1 max to M3 max. Yeah. There's, there's big gains, big gains happening there.

00:42:24   And I guess, um, if we're talking like M1 to M3, like a couple of years, I think a lot

00:42:32   of professionals would make that kind of jump. Like I think it is kind of good that the year

00:42:38   over year, uh, is good, but not like bananas good, right. For most people. So like you're

00:42:44   not tempted, but although you have started to become tempted, um, and maybe it's just

00:42:48   going to be in that max and ultra chip. Yeah. Just a little tingle, but, um, but it's coming,

00:42:54   right. The fact is if not this generation, then for a lot of people in the next generation,

00:42:58   you're going to get that moment where you're like, Oh, I've got an M1 and now they're at

00:43:01   M4. We're maybe not there necessarily. Like I have an M2 MacBook air and upgraded from

00:43:06   an M1, but I did that because I, because of the new design of it. And then I handed down

00:43:11   the M1. Um, that wasn't because of the chip. It was because of the design. And that's,

00:43:17   that's what I'm, um, thinking like for this is like the chip. If you are somebody like

00:43:23   David Smith, right. Um, or Marco, uh, if you've got, especially like an M1 and you're one

00:43:30   of those max people, you just, you're, you got the max chip, you pay the money, you want

00:43:34   the best. This difference is probably enough to make you jump. And you know, if you're

00:43:40   that person for everybody else, it's not, I think for everybody else, it's more, this

00:43:44   is why Apple keeps talking about Intel is they know how many people are still using

00:43:46   Intel max and it's a lot and they're trying to get them over. And this is a great opportunity

00:43:51   for them to bring people over. Yeah. I have an M1 max MacBook pro. Like that's what I'm

00:43:57   talking to you now from it's like my recording machine, my editing machine production machine

00:44:01   as they call it in the biz. Um, and I was wondering what I would do. I thought I would

00:44:08   go to a max studio and I was planning on doing it and now I'm going to wait for the M3 max

00:44:17   max studio cause that is going to be great for me. Like that's what I want. Um, and now

00:44:22   that now I've made my mind up, like when that comes, that's what I will buy and I'm going

00:44:26   to wait now until that, because I was planning on getting and uh, I just hadn't done it yet,

00:44:32   but I was planning on getting an M2 max max studio. But now I'm like, no, no, no. For

00:44:39   those who are, are, are, uh, unclear on the, the, the spread of processors and Apple's product

00:44:44   line, the MacBook pro well now it's M3, M3 pro and M3 max, but I would say kind of the

00:44:50   default is M3 pro it's the pro chip is the default and then you can spend a lot of money

00:44:55   for max max studio. The default is max and then you can spend a lot of money for ultra.

00:45:03   So the base model studio presumably will be with this same chip, that max chip M3 max

00:45:11   chip. And that'll be spectacular because they, you don't need the size of the studio for

00:45:14   the, for the, the, the slower chips. So that's what the Mac mini is for. I mean, they really

00:45:19   have just differentiated it. Mac mini is M and M pro and max studio is M max and M ultra.

00:45:26   So so yeah, I would, I would hang on if I were you and, and wait for that M3 max Mac

00:45:32   mini cause it'll, it'll be coming next year and that'll be impressive.

00:45:36   What are your thoughts on the, um, the, the finish, the space black finish that you got?

00:45:43   Oh yeah. Um, space black is, it's what I said last time. It is finger is print resistant,

00:45:49   but not fingerprint proof. You can leave fingerprints if you want to. I had, somebody was like,

00:45:53   maybe you should wipe your hands before you use it. You filthy animals. And I was like,

00:45:57   guys, do you not know that your skin exudes oil? You can have the cleanest hands in the

00:46:03   world. You will still say if, if, now I'm just going to put this out there, right? If

00:46:09   you are the kind of person that wipes their hands before their lap, use their laptop for

00:46:13   this reason, I don't know what to tell you. Like I was thinking of like what an insight

00:46:18   that is. If only all the great murderers and burglars of history had wiped the grease off

00:46:24   their hands before they committed crimes, they wouldn't have left fingerprints behind.

00:46:28   That's not how it works. Anyway, it is better. They did a good job. They wipe off better

00:46:33   too, right? Because it's this, in the anodization seal, they have put a different chemical process

00:46:40   that they say repels liquids. So sure. But you know, can you get smears on it and with

00:46:46   your fingerprints? Yeah, you can. They are harder to see and they're easier to wipe off

00:46:50   and it's hooray. Like, but again, I'm just trying to temper people's responses here.

00:46:55   It's not fingerprint proof. It's just better. And then in terms of the color, I put a bunch

00:47:00   of pictures in my review. You can see them. It is absolutely the darkest pro laptop Apple

00:47:06   has made ever. I think. Absolutely. And in some light it does look black in contrast

00:47:16   to other laptops. It's clearly very dark. Although I would argue that the midnight MacBook

00:47:21   air looks darker to me, certainly in the vicinity, but it has the dark blue sheen, which this

00:47:27   one doesn't have. Although it's got kind of a goldie metallic sheen of its own. It's not,

00:47:31   it's not pure black. It is a dark gray. So, so yeah, I, I'd say the most important thing

00:47:37   is first off, don't get your hopes up that it's super dark gray cause or super black.

00:47:41   Cause it's not, it's dark gray. And two, if, if you're asking like if my laptop is hanging

00:47:46   around somewhere in an office somewhere and you're like, where's my laptop? I have the

00:47:50   black one. You will probably be able to spot it, right? It is a lot darker than space gray.

00:47:56   And I have, I have the pictures to prove it, but I also have a picture where I put my midnight

00:48:00   MacBook air, this, the space black MacBook pro and at like a Samsung SSD, that's actually

00:48:05   black anodized aluminum all next to each other. And yeah, one of these objects is black and

00:48:13   it's not the space black MacBook. It just isn't. So, you know, it's dark gray and that's

00:48:20   fine. It is, it is the darkest one they've made in a pro laptop. It absolutely is. It's

00:48:25   what space gray. In fact, I will say this, Mike, it's what space gray auto have been all

00:48:29   along. Cause this is the real space gray, but they already had a space gray, like dozens

00:48:35   of them. And so they've differentiated by calling it space black, but it's just a nice

00:48:38   dark gray. But if you're, if you're one of those people who was like, I want the darkest

00:48:42   MacBook pro on the, on the market, uh, yeah, get it, go get it. This will do that. If that's

00:48:47   what you're looking for, if that's the deciding factor for you, this is the one that will

00:48:50   get you that. Yeah. Yeah. If you want the darkest MacBook on the market, um, I suggest

00:48:56   midnight MacBook Air, but Hey, you do you. There was one thing I wanted to touch on before

00:49:01   we move on to the iMac. Uh, you say in your review, Apple's Mac laptop line, which makes

00:49:07   up the vast bulk of new Mac sales offers what might be the best array of options in the

00:49:14   history of the Mac. Now I'm assuming you're adjusting for time and space in this argument,

00:49:21   right? Because like these things are always better if they've been going on, you know,

00:49:28   there was always better now than the previous ones because of the way that time works and

00:49:31   performance, right? Like if you put the iBook and the power book next to these things, it's

00:49:38   like they're being destroyed, but you can look at them for like where they are in, in

00:49:44   their place at that time. Is that what you're talking about? What I'm saying here, and you

00:49:49   know, people can argue with me if you want, cause whenever you're talking about in the

00:49:52   history, but like there are three consumer laptops, if you count the M1 MacBook Air,

00:50:01   you've got the, the excellent M2 MacBook Air in both a 13 and a 15, and you've got a Pro

00:50:08   MacBook Pro with a great screen that now spans three different processor levels and will

00:50:14   take you from 1599 all the way up to, you know, three, four, five grand. So you've got

00:50:20   a very clear single model MacBook Pro that spans a huge gamut. And then you, if you just

00:50:26   take the M2 Airs, you've got two options for that excellent computer down at the lower

00:50:32   price point. And then you've got that M1 Air, which is a fantastic computer even now that's

00:50:38   even lower than that. I feel like that is a spread of options and clarity that is rare,

00:50:46   if not non-existent when you think about Apple laptops. That's my argument, right? Because

00:50:52   in the past, you know, you could, you have your PowerBook, you know, 160, 180, 140, or

00:50:59   you've got an iBook and a PowerBook, or you've got the polycarbonate MacBook with some variations

00:51:06   and pay more for black. And then you've got a MacBook Pro up here that comes in some different

00:51:10   sizes and shapes and all that. And there may be a sweet spot in there in 2010 or something

00:51:15   like that. But like, it feels to me like, bottom line here, we can debate the history,

00:51:19   but it's like, I feel like the laptop story is clear. And it's been a while since the

00:51:23   laptop story has been this clear. And that there have been this many good options all

00:51:29   the way from the bottom of the product line up to the top.

00:51:32   Pretty cool time. Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's good. And, and, um, I can't wait for

00:51:38   the M3 MacBook Airs because I love the MacBook Air too, but the Mac, these MacBook Pros,

00:51:43   it's a good design. These chips are, continue to improve. The Macs is going to blow people

00:51:48   away at the high end who need that. And we're all still celebrating the 13 inch going away

00:51:54   too. So even though, even though, just as I, ironically, just as I said, don't buy that

00:51:59   13 inch MacBook Pro, I would caution people against buying the, the M3 MacBook Pro. Just

00:52:05   because again, unless, unless you have to scratch to get to 1599 and even there, I would

00:52:13   say maybe you should just get the MacBook Air. You get the better screen. It's true,

00:52:17   but like you can save money and get the 13 or the 15 MacBook Air. And if you're going

00:52:21   to go up to the MacBook Pro, really try to get to the M3 Pro because it's just a much

00:52:27   better computer with much more base Ram, which makes it a, uh, you know, a less of a stretch

00:52:32   to get there. If you care about something like Ram or storage,

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00:54:52   for the continued support of this show and all of Relay FM. We now turn our attention

00:54:58   to the M3 iMac. There is a piece of information that we will omit until the end of this conversation

00:55:05   because I think it's a whole separate conversation. Let's just talk about the 24-inch M3 iMac.

00:55:11   Yes. Still a great looking computer, right? You know that M1 iMac that you have? It's

00:55:17   like that except with an M3. Then it looks great and I'm sure it's nice and fast. It

00:55:21   looks great. Exactly, right? M3 is faster than M1. The advantage of not making an M2

00:55:28   iMac is you can say, well, it's way faster than the previous iMac for sure. Although

00:55:32   again, I don't think people with an M1 iMac need to update. I think it's more for people

00:55:36   who have an Intel iMac who want a new iMac. The iMac used to be the center of the Mac

00:55:43   universe and it's not anymore. It's a niche player. We live in a time of laptops and other

00:55:48   mobile devices and having an iMac that's a big all-in-one that you set somewhere is a

00:55:53   lot less popular than it used to be, but I still get the sense that it makes a huge amount

00:55:58   of money for Apple even though it's a fraction of a fraction of Apple's overall business.

00:56:02   It's still a big seller and they need to keep it up to date and it's great. I mean, every

00:56:07   time I try one, I think, oh, where in my life could I fit this? I can't come up with an

00:56:14   answer. Even when I was doing my Studio B project, getting a second workspace, which

00:56:18   is where I wrote most of my reviews actually, on the iMac, I thought I could get an iMac

00:56:26   and put it here, but then I thought, yeah, but I've already got a Mac Studio and a MacBook

00:56:29   Air. I don't want a third computer, right? I don't. But every time I use it, I think,

00:56:38   how can I find a way? Surely there's a way that I could have one of these in my life

00:56:42   because I love the colors and I love all the things about it, but it's not, yeah, yeah,

00:56:50   it doesn't fit. But if it fits for you, it's a great computer and now it's faster. That's

00:56:55   the bottom line.

00:56:56   So, third computer, it's a shame they didn't do anything with the stand. I think that is

00:57:00   the biggest miss for me that they didn't allow for more flexibility with the stand and also

00:57:05   didn't change the fixed stand.

00:57:07   Exactly. Since the iMac came out, they did the Studio Display, which had, in addition

00:57:11   to the VESA and the fixed stand that just tilts, they had the more expensive tilt and

00:57:17   height adjustable Studio Display. And I'm so disappointed that they didn't put that

00:57:24   option on the iMac and maybe they just didn't want to anodize those stands and would they

00:57:30   sell or not. It adds too much to the price and they figured nobody would buy them.

00:57:36   Maybe this would be considered heresy inside of Apple's industrial design lab, but I would

00:57:41   have just liked it if they could have made it possible for me to put an iMac on the adjustable

00:57:45   Studio Display stand. I know it's going to be mixed colors, right? I'm going to have

00:57:49   like yellow on silver, but I wished I could just do that.

00:57:54   It was like only available in silver, so you have to buy a silver. Yeah, most of my complaints,

00:57:57   it's funny, most of my complaints about the iMac this time are actually just my complaints

00:58:02   about the iMac last time. So if I have one overall M3 iMac complaint is that you went

00:58:07   two chip generations and you changed nothing. Like they literally, they changed nothing

00:58:13   on the outside. They don't want to change it. They already did the work. Why would we

00:58:17   alter it? And so you see it in the stand, which like, you know, there should be an adjustable

00:58:23   stand. If not the default, just let people buy a nice Apple adjustable stand for this

00:58:28   thing, because I think the stand is too low. I think most people are going to need to put

00:58:33   it on a box or a riser or something. And I think it's a mistake. And so that really bugs

00:58:41   me. And the webcam bugs me because it's the, yes, it's a 1080 webcam and there's image

00:58:47   cycle processing in the M3 chip and it looks great and all that. That's true. But like,

00:58:52   I really think the iMac is a perfect place for something like center stage. Now, my guess

00:58:57   is that they were going to put the studio display camera in it and they got so much

00:59:01   criticism for it. They just decided not to bother. But I want them to take another shot

00:59:06   at it because center stage is great. Center stage is really appropriate for an iMac. You

00:59:11   just need to have a better camera in there. And they decided that that was too expensive,

00:59:16   I guess. And so they're just going to keep the 1080 webcam, but for a brand new model

00:59:20   to still not have center stage in it, it's like, come on, like it's the perfect place

00:59:23   for center stage. What are you doing here? But they don't. And then, um, and then I decided

00:59:29   to finally have my moment about target display mode. Yes. Which is Apple hasn't done target

00:59:36   display mode in a long time. This is the mode where you can basically take an iMac and say,

00:59:39   I'm now an external display and you plug something else into it and you don't boot into Mac OS

00:59:43   and run fancy software that is just you boot into target display mode and it becomes a

00:59:49   display. And with retina displays, they took that out because the technology at the time

00:59:53   certainly didn't exist to drive a retina display via a Thunderbolt cable. So they, they punted

00:59:59   on it. But I, I, I'm at the point now where I kind of come back around to the fact that

01:00:04   it's a feature that should exist. And here's my approach to it, which is I don't think all

01:00:10   in ones are a good, a goodbye in general because screens last way longer than computers do

01:00:18   in terms of being current. You can use a very, very old screen and still, you know, yeah,

01:00:25   they're newer, fancier screens, but like old screens are fine. They last a long time. I

01:00:31   am using the same panel with my studio display that was in the second 5k iMac. So that was

01:00:38   a long time ago now. So, okay, but it's an iMac and therefore the computer is going to

01:00:45   age faster than the display is. There's going to come a time where you're going to get rid

01:00:50   of it instead of putting it into use as another display. And I think that that's not great.

01:00:57   And I think that it's, and this is follow me here, counter to Apple's stated beliefs

01:01:04   against waste and for environmental, you know, impact being reduced for their products. I

01:01:12   think target display mode is a green tech feature and a reduce of waste feature. And

01:01:24   I think they need to make an effort to bring it back because I'll tell you, it would be

01:01:29   a lot easier for me to buy an all-in-one down the road. If I knew that when I was done with

01:01:33   it, I could use it as a display. And I say that as somebody who just bought an Apple

01:01:37   studio display, even though I have a perfectly good 27 inch 5k iMac pro display, and I don't

01:01:46   want to use that computer anymore, but the display is still great and there's no target

01:01:51   display mode. So I can't. So I think that that's another disappointment I have about

01:01:55   all in once in general, which is this iMac in particular is I think that Apple, I don't

01:01:59   like how disposable they are in the sense that the displays are great and the computers

01:02:04   will age faster than the displays. And this has been true of all in once for a long time,

01:02:08   but like, I feel like this is an opportunity. Apple should step up here and create a mode

01:02:14   that allows it to be used as a display. How is this different to a laptop though? Like

01:02:19   a laptop is all fixed in one package. I'd say it's the necessity of it because you can

01:02:26   just buy an external display and a computer. Right. But you can't do that with a laptop,

01:02:32   right? The display has to come along with because it's a mobile device, but this is

01:02:35   not a mobile device. It is the same design as an external display, but it also has a

01:02:41   computer inside. It's like, yeah, but I want to use it now as an external display. It happens

01:02:44   all the time. It's how people save money. It's how it could sell, you know, sell Mac

01:02:48   minis to people who have iMacs and it would be less wasteful because you end up having

01:02:52   these screens that they get handed down maybe for a little while, but in the end the screen

01:02:56   is great and the computer's not, and that's the end of it. And I just think, I don't know

01:03:00   how hard it would be to do this. Perhaps it is so hard to do that it's just not worth

01:03:04   it. But my feeling is that it's probably more that it's just never been a priority and it's

01:03:08   feel, it just feels a little wasteful to me on, on an all in one desktop. You're right.

01:03:13   Laptops face this issue too. And you know, maybe they should make that for laptops too,

01:03:18   but the problem is a laptop, the screen is attached to a whole laptop. It, it ha you

01:03:23   can't buy a separate laptop screen and laptop base and walk off with them like you can with

01:03:29   this. So it's a different category as a mobile device versus this thing. Just a little thing.

01:03:34   It's not like, I mean, I love the iMac. I think it's great, but this is, this is part

01:03:37   of my, what gives me pause about it. And one of the reasons why I probably will never go

01:03:42   back to buying an iMac, even though I love my time with the iMac because Apple makes

01:03:47   a very nice external display and then I can swap out the computers every few years.

01:03:51   David: Someone wrote in, I don't have the name right now and asked if like the high

01:03:56   performance screen sharing mode could be used in places something like target display mode.

01:04:01   It, well, it requires not, I think not because it's about remote control in that scenario.

01:04:09   And it requires you're controlling the other computer, not your computer. So it doesn't

01:04:19   go that way. I do, I, yes, I do wonder if the, if they could build a mode like that.

01:04:23   The problem with that is that you're still running, it has only on Apple Silicon and

01:04:27   you're still running in booted into Mac OS when you do that. But sure, that's kind of

01:04:33   technology might be the way to do it. Although the best way to do it is to plug a Thunderbolt

01:04:38   cable into that Mac and have it be a monitor. That's the best way to do it and a webcam potentially

01:04:42   too.

01:04:43   I wanted to just read something specs wise, I just, cause I just think it's funny for

01:04:49   the M3 part. So in multicore performance, the iMac was 37% faster than an M1 system.

01:04:55   It was also 18% faster than an M2 Mac with care in the same tests. In single core tests,

01:05:00   the M3 was about 18% faster than the M2 and 32% faster than the M1. So that's all great.

01:05:06   The 10 core GPU iMac was only about 4% faster than a 10 core GPU M2 MacBook Air on a Geekbench

01:05:14   6.1 metal test, but an eye watery 234% faster than an eight core GPU M2 MacBook Air on the

01:05:22   new Cinebench 2024 GPU test. What is going on with that statistic?

01:05:28   Cinebench test, my guess is uses ray tracing and mesh shading and possibly even fills the

01:05:36   GPU cores where they're reclaiming memory. But my guess is that it's a ray tracing and

01:05:40   mesh shading thing happening with the Cinebench.

01:05:42   That particular test is tailored very nicely to this new GPU architecture.

01:05:48   And I've used Cinebench for a long time, but there's a new version of Cinebench and it

01:05:52   is, yes, I think it is perfectly designed for these systems. It's not, right. And so

01:06:02   I also ran the Geekbench metal test, which is a different kind of test, but Cinebench

01:06:06   is a rendering test and it is rendering a scene as many times as it can in 10 minutes

01:06:11   essentially. And yeah, it clearly is using like ray tracing and metal or mesh shading

01:06:18   and that's why. And so will most cases be 234% faster? No, but sometimes.

01:06:27   Sometimes in those areas. It's also showing gaming too, like it's showing

01:06:30   gaming. I read in the Ars Technica review, they were talking about how they played the

01:06:35   game that Apple showed off, Baldur's Gate, and they said like, you know, is it incredible?

01:06:41   No, but it plays better than other Macs have tried to play this kind of game on. And that

01:06:44   is a good thing, right? Like it is making it a comparable gaming machine more than before.

01:06:51   And I'm very happy to hear that. That's really great.

01:06:54   I think Apple's goal with Apple Silicon is to have all of their M, you know, all their

01:06:59   Apple Silicon based chips be good enough that you can play games on them. They're not going

01:07:05   to be the best gaming whatever, but remember, low-end Macs used to not be good enough to

01:07:09   play games on. And they are now. To get games on the systems, the systems have to first

01:07:15   be capable of playing games. Right? It's true. Because people are like, oh, there's no games

01:07:20   on a Mac. You couldn't play them, right? Or you could only play them on the $5,000 professional

01:07:26   Mac that nobody buys, which is like, well, why would you do that when you could get a

01:07:30   PC that plays this game for way cheaper? And you're John Sirkusa, the answer presents itself,

01:07:35   but otherwise you wouldn't. So, so yeah, we're at that point now. And now with this, yeah,

01:07:41   these are, it's funny too, cause this is a feature that is a 3d artist and rendering

01:07:47   feature, but come on, it's, it's a game feature. Like they built better game rendering into

01:07:54   their chips now, into even the base model. And, and that's where they're going to get

01:07:58   a lot of benefit from, you know, in the games that use ray tracing and mesh shading.

01:08:03   All right, let's move on to the part that I'm sure Apple would really prefer not to

01:08:08   be the story of the iMac, but I think in our circles, it is going to be the story of the

01:08:15   iMac today. Um, I'm going to read from your wonderful review again. Quote, Apple told

01:08:21   me that it has no plans to develop a 27 inch iMac again, if the company changes its mind

01:08:27   one day and decides to make a bigger iMac, I'll cheer, but I don't think I'd go back

01:08:31   to an iMac now that I'm able to work with studio display at Mac studio. So the quote

01:08:37   specifically is that there is not going to be a 27 inch iMac, right? Like that's what

01:08:42   they told you. Apple has, Apple has no plans to develop a 27 inch iMac. Right. And it's,

01:08:48   it's funny because Mark Gurman has talked about for a while that they, they have worked

01:08:50   on and off on the idea of a larger iMac, but it would be like a 30 or a 32 inch iMac. It

01:08:55   would be huge. And I, and we scratch our heads a little bit for the reasons discussed earlier

01:08:59   and say, well, why would you not just make that as a display? What's the market for a

01:09:03   very large pro iMac versus a nice big display that you can attach whatever pro or you know,

01:09:10   whatever level of computer you would choose to, to attach to it. And maybe they think

01:09:15   there's a market there and I'm sure we'll hear from people who are like, I would buy

01:09:17   one, but like, I'm not sure it's necessary to have a computer like that. And if they

01:09:22   also made that screen available as a screen, I think a lot of people wouldn't buy it. And

01:09:26   it would be frustrating if they made it as an amazing new screen. And the only way you

01:09:30   could get it as an iMac, that's sort of how we got to professional level iMacs in the

01:09:33   past. But so Gurman's got all those reports out there. They're not addressed by this statement.

01:09:38   This statement is just about the 27 inch iMac. And I'll just say, it's unusual for Apple

01:09:42   to make a statement like this. I know what's happening here. It is a, it's a marketing

01:09:47   statement. I would say it's completely self-serving because it's a marketing statement. That's

01:09:50   what they're for. What it's trying to do is tell people, if you've got a 27 inch iMac

01:09:56   on Intel and are waiting for the 27 inch version of the iMac on Apple Silicon to arrive, stop,

01:10:04   stop waiting. And in fact, this is just more explicit to what they said last week in their

01:10:08   presentation, which was, it's the perfect size and resolution to replace both the 4K

01:10:14   and 5K Intel based models, whichever model you're coming from, you will appreciate the

01:10:19   enormous amount of screen real estate on the new iMac display. And Turner said, said that

01:10:24   in the video, that's what we were told in our, in our briefings, the exact same wording.

01:10:28   And it was very clear at that point that they were saying, this is the answer for all previous

01:10:33   iMacs. That is what they said. So I thought it was already clear, but apparently Apple

01:10:41   feels like they need to make it extra clear. I missed that completely by the way that John

01:10:47   Turner said that, like it went over my head. I don't know why, but maybe it was too late

01:10:51   at night for me. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, maybe so. But no, it's basically like this

01:10:55   is it's typical Apple PR where it's like, well, the products that we sell are great

01:10:59   choices. The products that we don't sell aren't like that is that's like sales 101. Right?

01:11:04   And so that's what they're doing here is they're saying, um, they, they are concerned that

01:11:09   there are, is a group out there that is like, we are going to wait for the 27 inch iMac

01:11:15   to come back. And with the M3 iMac, Apple has broken enough of just enough of its rule

01:11:22   about talking about what it's doing inside the black box to say, no, there's no 27 inch

01:11:28   don't stop waiting. But really what they're saying is stop waiting and just buy either

01:11:33   the 24 inch iMac or a studio display and a computer. But you know, the solution is of

01:11:39   course buy a new Apple product because it's marketing. That's what they're trying to do.

01:11:43   But but they clearly think that there is some sort of a, uh, an issue out there where people

01:11:48   are holding out for that 27 inch model. And I think a lot of us were in that. I don't

01:11:53   feel like I'm there now. I mean, I bought a studio display, I moved on, but like when

01:11:56   the M1 iMac, I read my old M1 iMac review while I was writing the new one. And, and

01:12:01   like I, at the end, I sort of assumed that there would be a bigger iMac and there never

01:12:06   was. And I've come around to that now. But like, I think obviously Apple is concerned

01:12:12   that they're losing sales from a group that's holding onto the big iMac, hoping for a new

01:12:19   one. So they say, no, no, no, there isn't going to be a new one. Either choose a 27

01:12:23   inch studio display or 24 inch iMac. I think for a lot of people, the 24 inch screen is

01:12:28   actually enough. It's enough for me for almost everything I do. Video streaming, video editing,

01:12:34   there are a few places where it will, it would be really unfortunate, but I could, I could

01:12:39   manage and, and in those moments I would probably go up to, you know, show more on a display

01:12:43   setting and shrink everything down. But, uh, but if you, if it's not enough, you know,

01:12:49   other larger screens are available and you can attach a laptop or a desktop to them and

01:12:54   they work great. So that's what they're trying to do here is, is like, please leave Intel,

01:12:59   please buy a new something. Don't wait around for this computer that we don't intend to

01:13:02   make again. Even if in 2025, like Gurman's reports are like 25, maybe they might do a

01:13:09   mega iMac and they might not. And I definitely have heard that like when they were planning

01:13:14   the M1 iMac, there was talk about doing a larger iMac and they killed it. And Gurman's

01:13:18   reported that too, that they stopped. So if they're back talking about it, it sounds like

01:13:23   it's talk and it may not go anywhere. So while Apple's being a little disingenuous here and

01:13:28   saying no plans and 27 inch, right, they could totally have plans to develop a 30 inch iMac.

01:13:34   It's not addressed in this statement, but you know, I think realistically, even if you

01:13:39   decide you want to buy into all of those kinds of like conspiracies and hope, no, no, no,

01:13:43   big iMac is really is going to happen. I mean, two or three years from now, maybe like the,

01:13:50   the, I don't disagree with the point of Apple statement here, which is look, if you're holding

01:13:55   out hope that there's an iMac around the corner for you, there's not, maybe someday I'll add,

01:14:03   but not now. And if you're like, no, no, I'm going to, I'm going to use this i7 iMac until

01:14:09   there's a new one. I'm just going to hold onto this one and I'm going to not do Apple

01:14:13   Silicon because I just, it's gotta be an iMac. I would encourage those people to let go and

01:14:18   either go with the 24 inch iMac or a studio display with an external, you know, Apple

01:14:23   Silicon Mac of some sort. So I think from hearing this and thinking about it, the iMac

01:14:28   Pro is dead. Like the idea of the iMac Pro is dead, like bigger iMac, pro iMac, I just

01:14:34   don't think it's going to happen. And I was kind of thinking about like, well, why did

01:14:39   we want it? Because like, I was also thinking about this of like, when reading your review

01:14:43   of like, is there even really a market for all in ones in general? And then like, out

01:14:48   of that market, what is there left for a professional powerful one? And it kind of started making

01:14:54   me think about like, the iMac Pro, right? The 27 inch iMac Pro that we all had. And

01:15:01   I was kind of thinking like, why did we all buy that machine? Like, why did we buy it?

01:15:05   Why did we love it? And it was because it was the only really powerful Mac that existed

01:15:12   in a time of bad Macs. Like it was a bad time. And like, here was this machine.

01:15:18   And with a big retina display.

01:15:19   Yeah, it is like, yeah, here's this machine at a time when Apple doesn't make external

01:15:24   displays and there were no good displays. And Apple only made one good professional

01:15:31   machine and it was this one because the Mac Pro was really bad. And so we all bought it

01:15:36   because it was like, this is like the the Oasis in the desert at the time we needed

01:15:42   it. So we have such fond memories of this computer.

01:15:47   $5,000. It's the most I've ever spent on a computer.

01:15:51   But it was what we needed at the time to be happy with the Mac.

01:15:57   And it was great. It was, you know, legitimately great. Funny story. They wouldn't give review

01:16:03   units of that out to almost anybody because it was a pro system and Mac world ended up

01:16:07   paying me for my review of it because I had bought one for myself. And one way that you

01:16:12   get your money back for buying an expensive computer is having somebody pay you to review

01:16:16   it. That was hilarious. And then it's the it's like literally the only time that one

01:16:20   of my articles has been tweeted by Phil Schiller. And I'm like, you guys didn't even want to

01:16:24   give Mac world one. I bought it myself and now you're tweeting my review of it. It was

01:16:28   just an amazing moment. Well, I mean, because they made the money and got the press. It's

01:16:32   like, yeah, I guess so money, money, money anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It's the, that display

01:16:37   was great. And that's why I had a 5k. I got the first IK 5k iMac when I went out on my

01:16:43   own, that was my, I had like a double display and a Mac book air. And then that 5k iMac

01:16:47   got announced. I was like, that is it. I'm going to buy it because again, getting a display

01:16:51   like that was so rare and it came with the computer and you're like, great, well, it's

01:16:54   a perfectly reasonable, powerful computer. And then that iMac pro came out. It's like,

01:16:58   Oh, that display, the Xeon processor, it's going to let me do all my isotope audio stuff

01:17:03   and all that. It was great in a moment that Stephen Hackett wrote a great piece called

01:17:07   the great iMac realignment. That was about this. And he called back to that moment. That

01:17:11   was like the parallel universe, right? Where they were, they were taking the Mac in a different

01:17:15   direction and then they did the you know, they did the thing where they brought in the

01:17:19   press and they said, Oh no, no, no, we're recommitting to pro users and there'll be

01:17:22   a new Mac pro. But the story was that the iMac pro was originally, that was the future

01:17:27   of the Mac pro. So the Mac pro was dead. That was it. Like, so we, the iMac became this

01:17:32   vessel. I'm using the vessel into which a lot these days, but let's just go with it.

01:17:36   The Mac pro became the, the vessel that Apple was going to use for high end systems. Cause

01:17:41   they had their whole high end system, a non laptop high end system. A product line was

01:17:47   a disaster. And so people just flock to the iMac. And what we're seeing is Apple unwinding

01:17:52   that and saying, no, no, no, you can get that display externally. Plus we make this other

01:17:56   super expensive, fantastic display. And we've got all these different modular desktops more

01:18:00   than ever before that take you from the low end to the high end. And then the Mac pro

01:18:03   is on top of that. We have so many different choices for you. You don't have to have an

01:18:07   iMac again. The iMac, this new, and they designed the new iMac with that in mind, right? They

01:18:12   designed it knowing that they didn't need the iMac to hold up the pros anymore. And

01:18:17   so it's this super thin, light, cute, adorable, uh, not very well. I mean, it's got cooling

01:18:22   in it, but like, I'm not sure it would take a pro processor if you put one in it maybe,

01:18:26   but like it's not for that. And, and, and it's got the colors and it's like, it's fine.

01:18:31   The iMac pro again, we're a different, we talk about this on this show all the time.

01:18:34   It was a different timeline. Like the iMac pro existed in a parallel universe that we

01:18:39   ended up moving away from, right? Like it was going to exist probably as the replacement

01:18:44   for the Mac pro and it was going to be the Mac pro, but then they had to change course

01:18:48   because they realized they were going in a different time. We're still going to get the

01:18:52   iMac pro, but it was one and done because then by the time that Apple had made the decision

01:18:56   they were going to make, they decided to go to Apple Silicon and then everything changed.

01:19:01   And the iMac pro was still in development and they needed something to try and make

01:19:04   people feel better in the meantime until they could develop the, like the forget that the

01:19:11   trash can ever happened Mac pro. Right. And like, and now we're back on to course again.

01:19:16   But then the iMac pro just sits out there as like this vestige from a different time.

01:19:21   And so it was only ever done once and it will never happen again, I think.

01:19:26   Right. So I'd say pro pro level users fled to the iMac in part because Apple's the Mac

01:19:33   was in a sad place right then. Yep. And Apple's choices had led them to that place. And I

01:19:39   would argue it was a rational thing for users to do to have a pro iMac and to go there or

01:19:44   a high-end iMac, even if you didn't buy the iMac pro, like at the end there, you could

01:19:48   get a really stacked. I remember that the last generation iMac, remember we did, we

01:19:53   had Colleen on the, on the podcast. I think that was the last generation Intel iMac and

01:19:58   like I seven, the high end of that was faster than my iMac pro was, as I recall for most

01:20:05   tasks, like they were really powerful. And I think it was a rational thing for pro level

01:20:16   users to use an iMac in that era. But with Apple Silicon, another one of the decisions

01:20:22   Apple made in addition to things like that, the M one, two and three don't support two

01:20:26   external monitors. One of their decisions was that's not what the iMac is going to be

01:20:30   anymore. We're going to do a studio display and we got, we got our pro display and we've

01:20:36   got a Mac studio in addition to the Mac mini plus all our laptops can drive those 5k displays

01:20:43   and we don't need to make a pro iMac anymore. It was a distortion in the iMac for a bad

01:20:49   time that we don't want to talk about anymore. And I just, I think that's the truth of it.

01:20:55   Now if they, that's why I'm so baffled about, about the rumors that they keep tinkering

01:20:58   with the idea of an iMac that is, that is huge. And the only, I'm going to throw out

01:21:04   a wacky idea here. This is not quite a shower thought, but it's close to that. Which is

01:21:09   I do having used that Samsung monitor, that's basically a TV. I wonder if maybe the discussion

01:21:15   about like a big iMac is something like what if we did a big monitor that had embedded,

01:21:21   an embedded computer in it? Because once you have a studio display with an A chip in it,

01:21:26   right? Like could we just do a big monitor and put an M3 in it and, or an M4 in it and

01:21:32   you could run Mac OS on it or you could boot TV OS on it or you could just use it as a

01:21:36   TV and you know, is there a, like a weird kind of multifunction big display that you

01:21:42   could do? Probably not. That sounds like a toaster fridge to me, but, but anyway, I start

01:21:51   thinking about weird stuff like that because I don't think it makes sense based on where

01:21:56   Apple is right now to do something like a really big pro iMac. I feel like their direction

01:22:03   is keep iterating Mac Studio, keep iterating Mac mini and keep building great laptops that

01:22:08   you can hook up to these big displays and make, continue to make a line of really nice

01:22:13   displays because clearly nobody else is going to. So Apple, Mac users are going to have

01:22:18   to rely on Apple to make those external displays good. I expect that there is a big display

01:22:23   come in and it's really powerful and it has some kind of chip inside of it, right? Because

01:22:26   it needs to and it's not an iMac. It's just the next studio display. My, yeah, my other

01:22:32   experience of using the Samsung is, although I didn't like it because like you turn off

01:22:37   your computer and a blue screen comes up and says, I'm going to sleep in 30 seconds. It's

01:22:40   very bad. Apple would never do that, I think. But, but yeah, I'll tell you if you've got

01:22:46   an A series chip in your studio display, you know what would be really nice in your, or

01:22:50   your big beautiful display is tvOS at the very least, right? Like can I repurpose that

01:22:55   not as a Mac necessarily, but as an Apple TV when I'm not using it in a, in a small

01:23:00   environment somewhere that why not? Like I actually am a little offended that the, the,

01:23:04   that my studio display can't do that given the chip that's inside of it, but it can't.

01:23:08   It's you know, it's running iOS, but it can't do that. But yeah, I wouldn't, I don't want

01:23:13   them to make a bigger Mac, bigger iMac. It doesn't make sense to me. I realize if you're

01:23:20   somebody who just loves using an all-in-one, but you know, I, I, my, my computing life

01:23:25   has not changed at all. I now have a studio display on a monitor arm instead of an iMac

01:23:32   and I have the Mac studio under my desk and it's the same experience, right? I like, I,

01:23:40   it yeah, it's, it's a, it's two pieces instead of one, but it's basically the exact same

01:23:44   experience as before. And it's fine. Yeah. The, the $5,000 iMac Pro exists today. It

01:23:54   is a Mac studio and a studio display. You just add them together and you've gotten to

01:23:59   where you need to go, you know? And for our friends, we have some friends like Marco and

01:24:05   Steven both do this. Like the, the laptop you attach to a studio display life, I used

01:24:13   a MacBook Air for years in the Intel era where I had an external display at work and I would

01:24:17   bring that MacBook Air back and forth in my backpack every day. And I would plug it into

01:24:21   the external display and keyboard and mouse at my desk at Mac world. And let me tell you,

01:24:28   it was a buggy. Like sometimes it wouldn't go to sleep when I disconnected it and it

01:24:34   would be hot in my backpack when I got home. Sometimes the video connection wouldn't work

01:24:39   right. Like there was lots of things about it. Today, it's not like that at all. My,

01:24:42   my studio B, you know, other room where I have a studio display, I just use my MacBook

01:24:47   Air back there and I could not like it. I'll say specifically, that is an Apple Silicon

01:24:53   and Studio Display. Like if you use non-Apple Silicon and a display, it doesn't work so

01:24:58   well. If you use Apple Silicon and an LG display, it doesn't work so well. Specifically those

01:25:06   two products together, it's like perfect, right? The Studio Display and an Apple Silicon

01:25:10   Mac. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the magic of it. So, so yes, I agree. The Apple solution

01:25:14   to the 5K iMac being gone is the Studio Display and literally pick your product from the,

01:25:23   from the M2 Air all the way up. That is better than an iMac Pro. That is a better product.

01:25:30   And in three years when you're ready to upgrade your computer, you won't have to get rid of

01:25:34   your display. Keep the display and you'll be good to go. I, before we move on, you mentioned

01:25:40   the episode of Colleen and I want to put it in the show notes and I looked at the description

01:25:44   and this might be the weirdest episode of upgrade. All right, listen to this description.

01:25:51   The new iMacs are here and Jason has an exclusive interview with the iMac product manager. We

01:25:56   also discussed the new iPads and then Jason and Mike draft what they think will happen

01:26:02   at next week's Apple event. Yeah. Isn't that weird? There were new products. We had an

01:26:10   interview about with someone about one of them. There was a whole other set of new products.

01:26:15   Then there was an event the next week. It was the services event. It was the services

01:26:19   event. Good memory. Honestly, it sounds like a description written by chatgpt because it's

01:26:29   like we're just going to pick a bunch of things that upgrade has in it. Also like episode

01:26:36   237 new Macs, iPads and the 2019 March event draft. That is so weird, right? It is. Well,

01:26:46   it's like our clip show episode. It's like all the things we do in one. Yeah, that was

01:26:51   and that was my interview with Colleen. So I assume that was the one where I actually

01:26:54   I flew to New York and interviewed her at Apple's place. And then I was recording from

01:27:03   a hotel room floor in Romania. In Romania and then so I did the interview with Colleen

01:27:09   and then I believe went back to my hotel around the corner in New York and then we did the

01:27:14   rest of upgrade and the files. I sent the files to you overnight and it was a whole

01:27:19   whole thing. Just thing. Yeah. All those good times. Good times. March 2019. Yeah. Wild

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01:30:36   of this show and Relay FM. Let's finish out with some ask upgrade questions.

01:30:42   Today's show. First question comes from Mike who asks, "As a 13 inch M1 MacBook Pro user,

01:30:52   how long do you think Apple will support the touch bar? I use Keynote every day in my classroom

01:30:58   and I actually love the touch bar to jump around in a slideshow without scrolling through

01:31:02   the slides on screen." That's actually a very good use of the touch bar. It's like, oh,

01:31:08   that technology sounds great. So I think, okay, let me start by just saying

01:31:16   something that is, I'm going to be mean. I'm going to speak ill of the dead. I'm going

01:31:20   to be mean to the touch bar. Mike, you shouldn't have any trouble because Apple has done no,

01:31:24   made no effort to update the touch bar in any way since they launched it essentially.

01:31:29   So essentially I think it will just continue being what it was forever and never change.

01:31:36   And so I think it will be supported until the last touch bar laptop dies, but it will

01:31:41   never be changed. It will never be updated in any way. It'll just keep being what it

01:31:45   was from the beginning. And I guess it's one of these things where

01:31:48   you have to hope that no bugs get introduced, right? Cause like if they do, yeah, no, I

01:31:54   think they'll support it. I think as long as they're supporting the M2 processor, they

01:31:59   will support the touch bar because it's in that Macbook Pro. So I think it'll just be

01:32:03   out there. It just won't do anything new, but I think it'll let you jump around in your

01:32:08   slideshow without any trouble. And Zach in the chat room points out that, yeah, side

01:32:13   car still says like, oh, you want to see the touch bar? So the touch bar is in sidecar.

01:32:17   Whenever you use that, you can just, you know, make your iPad a touch bar if you need to.

01:32:22   Touch bar in the sidecar, touch car in the sidebar.

01:32:25   Touch car in the sidebar.

01:32:27   I don't know what that means, but I like the way it sounds. Brent wants to know, why do

01:32:34   you think Apple does not offer cloud backup for Macs?

01:32:37   Whoa, um, because it's hard.

01:32:40   Something to add into services, right? You want to do another service?

01:32:43   I agree. I agree. I think the answer is cause it's hard.

01:32:46   And takes a lot of space, I guess, right?

01:32:49   Well, but they could charge for it. This is the thing. I'm sure they've done the math

01:32:53   and maybe they've realized that what they would need to charge for Mac cloud backup

01:32:58   is more than the market is willing to pay or that their margins could accept. But I

01:33:03   agree, as somebody who uses online backup, wouldn't it be great? Now they do desktop

01:33:10   and document sync is a thing in iCloud, and that will get you all your documents folder

01:33:15   and your desktop files.

01:33:17   And photos, right? There are little components that you can have backed up.

01:33:23   But what they have, and I think part of it is just the technical challenge of how do

01:33:27   you do that? You know, time machine is not really built to be, to work over a connection

01:33:33   that slow, you know, an internet connection versus even on a network, it's kind of slow.

01:33:39   Even on a USB drive attached to your computer, it's kind of slow. And now imagine doing it

01:33:43   over the network. So they would have to re architect time machine. I wonder if they've

01:33:46   talked about it or have even planned to do that down the road. Because I agree, it would

01:33:49   make a lot of sense and they would charge you extra. So it's more services revenue.

01:33:54   They could probably theoretically mark it up. But again, there's a question of what

01:33:58   the margin is and does it help their margins or not? Because what would that price be and

01:34:02   do they think they could sell it? Maybe that they pencil it out, like I said, and we're

01:34:06   like, it's not profitable enough for us to do this. But I agree. I even wonder if they

01:34:11   could just extend desktop and document iCloud sync to be also your preferences or something

01:34:18   so that there was like an enhanced migration from the cloud in case you didn't have a time

01:34:24   machine backup where they could pull stuff off of the cloud that would make it a little

01:34:28   bit better, right? Like not a full, like, restorable time machine backup, but like a

01:34:34   light version, a mini version where you're still going to have to go get your apps and

01:34:38   stuff, but they'll do your preferences and things like that. I don't think it's impossible

01:34:44   that they will eventually do this. I think it's telling that they have still not done

01:34:49   it because that suggests there is a roadblock there.

01:34:53   It's probably not a very attractive service on the potential list of things they could

01:34:58   offer, right? Because it's messy. Right. And it's messy. I would also say it's potentially

01:35:05   messy in terms of, although they love messy, he's great. But the, wait for it. Anyway,

01:35:16   it is like, how do you, do you track this? Is all this data going into your iCloud storage

01:35:24   allotment? And if that's true, like now they do have, you can buy more storage, but like,

01:35:28   cause it's going to be a lot of storage for some people, maybe too much. And then are

01:35:31   you going to do versioning? And like, there's a, there's a lot that goes into that. My guess

01:35:36   is that they've thought about it. They've walked through all these things. They've looked

01:35:39   at how much they would need to do to change like time machine, essentially to do something

01:35:43   like this and how much they would have to do on the backend and how long it would take

01:35:48   for people to back up the first time. And could they, could they limit it to certain

01:35:53   areas of the computer? So it wouldn't be a full backup, but it would get most everything

01:35:57   optionally done. And then like how much storage is this going to take up and bandwidth on

01:36:02   our, in our server farms and what's that going to cost us? And then looking at all of that,

01:36:06   now let's put in our traditional, my guess is our traditional markup for services and

01:36:11   it's going to cost what? Nobody's going to buy that. Forget it. That's my guess is they're

01:36:16   going to, that they've, that they've looked all that. But I do think it's an opportunity.

01:36:20   And in the meantime, you know, it's an opportunity for backblaze and companies like that. And

01:36:24   I use backblaze and it's great, but it's not the same as having it be like Apple holding

01:36:29   your hand and saying, Hey, you got a new Mac. That's great. Would you like to back it up?

01:36:34   Because they do that with our iPads and our iPhones, but not our Macs. So I think it's

01:36:40   a great opportunity, but that's my guess is that it doesn't pencil out technically and

01:36:45   or financially.

01:36:46   Zach asks, how long do you think Apple will keep the MacBook Air on M2? I wonder if they're

01:36:55   willing to keep it there for longer to differentiate it more from the Pro, like how the base and

01:37:00   Pro iPhones are now distinguished by chip generation.

01:37:04   It's a good question. I like the way you think. Um, I think Apple will keep the MacBook Air

01:37:08   on M2 until they ship the M3 MacBook Air sometime next year. I don't think it's going to be,

01:37:14   I don't think it's going to stay behind. It's the most important laptop. I don't think they're

01:37:18   going to keep it behind. I just don't.

01:37:20   And I guess the question is like, which is the most important iPhone? Like if we're overlaying

01:37:26   those two things together, right?

01:37:28   Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I don't think Apple's like, Oh man, let's, let's, let's,

01:37:34   uh, artificially limit our most popular laptops. So more people buy the weirdly limited low

01:37:40   end MacBook Pro. I don't think so. I just don't. I think that, that the MacBook Air

01:37:46   being M3, in fact, I think they're burned. Like I said earlier on this show from releasing

01:37:51   that 15 inch model late in the M2 cycle and that it didn't sell as well. I think you really

01:37:56   want your popular laptop to be on the current generation as quickly as possible. So I don't

01:38:02   think it'll be very long at all. And then I suspect that update will be very similar

01:38:05   to what we saw with the iMac and the MacBook Pro, which is that MacBook Air has already

01:38:09   been redesigned. It's a relatively fresh design. It will be, I suspect, indistinguishable from

01:38:14   the current models, except with an M3 processor.

01:38:17   To overlap it though, do you think, do we know, do you reckon the iPhone Pro sells more

01:38:23   than the iPhone?

01:38:25   I think so.

01:38:26   I reckon so too.

01:38:28   Yeah.

01:38:29   If you would like to send in a question of your own for us to answer on the show, just

01:38:33   go to upgradefeedback.com. You can also send in your followup and your Snell Talk questions

01:38:38   there. Don't forget to go to upgradees.vote to put your nominations in for the 10th annual

01:38:45   upgradees awards. If you would like to read Jason's reviews that we mentioned today, there's

01:38:50   lots more in them than we covered. Please go to sixcolors.com where you can do that.

01:38:55   You can hear Jason's podcasts on the incomparable.com and here on Relay FM where you'll find me

01:39:00   too. You can check out my work as well at cortexbrand.com. You can find us on Mastodon.

01:39:06   Jason is at J Snell on zeppelin.flights and I am at iMike, i-m-y-k-e on mike.social. You

01:39:13   can find the show on Mastodon as well as upgrade@relayfm.social. You can watch video clips of the show there,

01:39:22   but also on our dedicated video platforms like TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube where

01:39:26   we are upgrade relay on all of those platforms. We're on threads as well. I am iMike, i-m-y-k-e.

01:39:33   And as always, thanks for watching.

01:39:48   [Music]

01:39:54   (upbeat music)