487: Under the Thumb of Qualcomm


00:00:00   (music)

00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 487 for November 20th, 2023.

00:00:16   My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow but I'll introduce him in a moment.

00:00:20   Because first, I must thank FitBod, Electric, TextExpander and Vitaly for their support

00:00:26   of this episode.

00:00:28   Hello Jason.

00:00:30   That was a weird intro, wasn't it?

00:00:31   Sometimes you get up ahead of yourself, you know, and you're just, you know.

00:00:35   I often refer to this a lot in business and life.

00:00:40   You're familiar with the Wallace and Gromit meme where Gromit is putting the tracks down

00:00:45   when he's on the train.

00:00:46   You've probably seen this meme, right?

00:00:48   So he's just like laying them down.

00:00:49   Sometimes when I'm recording a show, that's what it's like.

00:00:51   Like I'm just saying things, I don't know what I'm going to say.

00:00:54   I don't know if there is that much thought in my brain before I say it but I'm just talking

00:00:59   and that's sometimes where I end up with.

00:01:01   I have a Snultalk question for you.

00:01:04   Comes from Jason, another one, called, "What kind of uniform does Jason wear for curling?"

00:01:09   Oh, I don't wear a uniform.

00:01:12   There's no team jersey?

00:01:16   No, no.

00:01:17   Okay.

00:01:18   I don't have anything like that.

00:01:21   The club does have like jackets that you can get.

00:01:26   I am getting one of those.

00:01:27   See?

00:01:28   See?

00:01:29   There's a uniform.

00:01:30   It's a club jacket.

00:01:31   It's not a uniform.

00:01:32   Some people get them and they keep them warm and they wear them sometimes, but it's not

00:01:35   a uniform.

00:01:36   Okay.

00:01:37   No, the key things you have to know about clothing for curling is you can't, you need

00:01:40   to wear something that sort of works with ice.

00:01:43   So like blue jeans are not good for that.

00:01:50   And so I wear some of those, you know those Mack Weldon sweatpants that you like, Mike?

00:01:57   The ace sweatpants.

00:02:00   That's my part of my curling uniform, I guess.

00:02:04   And then I actually have, so there's a lot of Mack Weldon in there.

00:02:06   I actually have a thermal that Mack Weldon makes, a little thin thermal layer.

00:02:11   It's like a shirt, like a long sleeve shirt.

00:02:15   And I wear that.

00:02:16   And then over that, I wear something else.

00:02:19   Usually a uniform of some sort, but not a curling uniform.

00:02:23   See, there's so many uniforms.

00:02:25   A sports jersey of some sort.

00:02:28   Let's go Giants.

00:02:29   That's usually what I wear over that.

00:02:30   So I have a Giants.

00:02:31   Let's go Giants.

00:02:32   I have some Cal stuff and I have a beautiful throwback San Jose Sharks jersey that looks

00:02:38   like the California Golden Seals that they wore last season, the retro remix sweater

00:02:45   for the Sharks.

00:02:46   And I wear that.

00:02:47   I'm about to enter the season where I will wear that because I do sort of like cycle

00:02:51   through based on Giants, Cal and the hockey season.

00:02:54   I care very little for hockey, but wearing a hockey jersey on ice seems like a good idea.

00:03:00   And that jersey is beautiful.

00:03:01   So I wear that one.

00:03:02   You said no uniforms, but by my account, you have three distinct uniforms.

00:03:05   What uniforms do I not wear?

00:03:07   Yeah.

00:03:08   If anything, you are too uniformed.

00:03:10   But they're not uniforms because they're only the jerseys.

00:03:14   Then there's just Mack Weldon sweatpants.

00:03:16   Well, it depends, right?

00:03:17   So the jerseys are a uniform, just not the uniform of your team.

00:03:21   You wear the same clothes.

00:03:22   No, they're not.

00:03:23   They're part of a uniform.

00:03:24   Part of a uniform.

00:03:25   Yeah.

00:03:26   Okay.

00:03:27   So it's part of the uniform for a different sport that you're not a part of.

00:03:30   You wear specific clothing every single time, which I would consider to be a uniform.

00:03:35   And then you're also buying a team jacket.

00:03:37   This sounds like very uniform.

00:03:38   Not a team jacket, a club jacket.

00:03:40   What difference does that make?

00:03:43   Because you play on teams of four and our team doesn't have a jacket or a uniform.

00:03:47   There's just people who are members of the club can wear the jacket that says I'm a member

00:03:51   of the club.

00:03:52   Shirts like a bowling team gets.

00:03:56   We're not that competitive, honestly.

00:03:57   We're not competitive enough to do that.

00:04:00   Yeah.

00:04:01   So anyway, that's my non-answer answer for not Jason, Jason.

00:04:05   If you would like to send in a question where Jason says no and then answers for 15 minutes

00:04:10   about the actual answer, which is yes, you could send in your question to Snell Talk

00:04:15   over upgrade feedback.com and you could help us start a show.

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00:05:00   been generated and is incredible.

00:05:03   I'm very happy with the theme that we've gone through this year.

00:05:07   We have a very good, a very good episode that I'm excited to share with people when the

00:05:11   10th annual upgrade ease will be published on December 18th.

00:05:16   It's nearly that time.

00:05:17   Jason, I'm very excited.

00:05:18   We're coming through close to that time.

00:05:20   I know, right?

00:05:21   I get very excited to upgrade his time, but we're nearly there.

00:05:25   Looking forward.

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00:05:33   boy do we have a deal for you.

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00:05:38   I mean it is a black Friday in the sense that black Friday now extends for multiple weeks

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00:06:45   This is the perfect time to jump in.

00:06:47   I'm very excited for today's upgrade plus where Jason has a bunch of questions about

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00:07:31   Jason, we've got a lot of follow up now a lot of follow up got a lot of follow up where

00:07:39   people were angry at you.

00:07:41   That's fine.

00:07:42   I've picked out some of that and we're going to talk about that later on.

00:07:44   Okay most of it people were just mad and so it didn't really feel like I wanted to bring

00:07:49   that to the show but there's some where people have got some points about the M3 Pro before

00:07:54   we have some fun stuff and follow up today.

00:07:56   The first is very interesting comes from Dr. Warren.

00:07:59   Dr. Warren writes in and says I am an auditory neuroscientist and I have a quick comment

00:08:05   on hearing aids for you and why a lot of people resist wearing them which is something we

00:08:10   were talking about last time.

00:08:11   It is not just people being stubborn.

00:08:14   It can take several weeks for your brain to get used to a hearing aid as your brain now

00:08:18   has different input and needs to adapt to its responses.

00:08:22   My dad, says Dr. Warren, expected them to be like glasses, an instant fix, but they

00:08:27   are not.

00:08:28   You have to wear them every day for 6 to 16 weeks.

00:08:32   There are other reasons but I insist to my family stick with it.

00:08:35   It eventually helps.

00:08:37   I appreciate that.

00:08:39   I think what we were talking about is more the initial resistance which is people resist

00:08:44   even the process of getting them but it's interesting to hear that that's not even the

00:08:50   only hurdle because once you get them you still have to stick with them.

00:08:54   Interesting.

00:08:55   I had no idea about that but I guess it kind of makes sense but I would have just assumed

00:09:00   it was just like glasses.

00:09:04   There can be adaptations for glasses too but it doesn't take 16 weeks for your eyes to

00:09:09   adapt to glasses.

00:09:11   Maybe just get some headaches for a little bit.

00:09:14   We mentioned on the last episode that, and I specifically mentioned it, I was surprised

00:09:20   that I feel like we haven't heard about a lot of developer kits going out into the wild.

00:09:25   We put a call out for some anonymous feedback to be given and we have three pieces of anonymous

00:09:29   feedback.

00:09:31   From person number one says, I was talking to somebody off the record about a week ago

00:09:35   who told me that they had a developer kit for the vision pro.

00:09:38   This is a developer whose app and themselves personally has been featured in several iPad

00:09:44   related promotional videos and even live demo events since the launch of the iPad pro.

00:09:50   I'll just say if they were talking to you off the record you're not supposed to share

00:09:53   that with a podcast but thank you for the information anonymous person.

00:09:57   Yep.

00:09:58   Well you know they shared it off the record with me but I put it on the record you know

00:10:02   because I can't be trusted.

00:10:04   No that's not true.

00:10:05   That's just how they shared it.

00:10:06   That's not it.

00:10:07   That's not it.

00:10:08   They sent this in and then reported they're the ones who are reporting something that

00:10:11   was off the record.

00:10:12   Yep.

00:10:13   It's now on the record.

00:10:15   Another person says, dev kits are in devs hands can confirm as I work an organization

00:10:20   that has one.

00:10:22   Now this is the kind of thing I'd expected big companies but that first one was even

00:10:25   more interesting to me because it's like oh that as an individual it sounds like right

00:10:28   like like a very small team.

00:10:30   The last one says I can confirm that vision pro development kits have gone out at least

00:10:34   the large companies in some cases apple is working with some of these companies to get

00:10:38   more feedback on the software stack than we are used to in the community from what I've

00:10:43   heard from those who have used it the hardware is pretty finalized but there are software

00:10:47   rough edges.

00:10:48   Sounds about right.

00:10:49   Yep.

00:10:50   I heard the hardware was pretty finalized a long time ago.

00:10:54   Long long time ago.

00:10:55   And it's just getting the software together.

00:10:57   It's not going to get your favorite chip the M3 you know.

00:11:00   All right.

00:11:01   But our friend James says he still doesn't have one so James did not pass the audition

00:11:06   I guess.

00:11:07   On the M3 Pro so this is the feedback where people were angry about you talking about

00:11:13   pro last week.

00:11:15   That's fine.

00:11:16   I was I was given some tough love I was given some cold water I figured the people wouldn't

00:11:20   appreciate it.

00:11:22   That's fine.

00:11:23   Sometimes you know what we can get on the show is Jason's going to hold the mirror up

00:11:27   you know you're going to take a look at yourself.

00:11:28   That's what you get around here sometimes you know you just you're just going to have

00:11:32   to take a long hard look at yourself.

00:11:34   I'm not always here to agree with you.

00:11:36   Indeed.

00:11:37   And James says I don't think the complainers are idealists.

00:11:40   They just think that Apple is trading reputation for a 38 percent margin.

00:11:44   A computer that literally crashes doing basic multimedia tasks is not a good look especially

00:11:49   when the 16 gigabyte model handles those tasks with ease.

00:11:52   Also consumers don't need to be geeks to price compare other brands.

00:11:56   I mean I don't I don't agree but you know.

00:12:00   I think Drew is taking some leaps here.

00:12:01   I don't know what this crash is doing.

00:12:04   Literally crashes.

00:12:05   Basic multimedia tasks.

00:12:06   I don't know where this is coming from.

00:12:07   If every base model MacBook Pro literally crashed doing basic multimedia tasks I think

00:12:11   that would be a gate right.

00:12:14   What I get is a lot of arguments of but if you have a lot of chrome tabs on it's it gets

00:12:18   slower which is true.

00:12:20   Not quite the same.

00:12:21   And then Apple trading reputation for margin.

00:12:24   I don't know what to tell you first off reputation with whom and secondly Apple always is going

00:12:28   to get its margins and that hasn't that's been the case forever.

00:12:31   I'll just say because I have a lot of perspective on this that's a nice way of saying I've been

00:12:37   doing this a very long time.

00:12:39   People have been complaining about Apple space models being not what they think they should

00:12:43   be for decades now.

00:12:48   It doesn't mean that it's not frustrating but the I do think sometimes saying trading

00:12:53   reputation for margin is overwrought because Apple's reputation is still pretty good.

00:12:59   But I get it.

00:13:00   I get what they're saying.

00:13:01   People don't.

00:13:03   I get it.

00:13:06   Drew's statement also consumers don't need to be geeks to price compare with other brands.

00:13:11   Everybody price compares.

00:13:14   Apple's laptops are more expensive compared to other brands.

00:13:17   Apple's been playing that game for a long time too.

00:13:20   If the argument is well people aren't going to buy the MacBook Pro base model because

00:13:24   they're going to see 8 gigs of RAM and price compare it with a Dell and buy a Dell it's

00:13:28   like okay were they going to buy Dell anyway?

00:13:30   I don't know what to tell you.

00:13:34   I get what you're saying but some of these examples seem a little bit of a stretch for

00:13:39   me and are missing the point.

00:13:41   Justin says Apple is hurting their reputation.

00:13:44   With Apple sticking two 8 gigabytes of RAM and 256 gigabytes of storage in the low end

00:13:49   it's hurting their brand.

00:13:50   Look at places like Costco and Amazon.

00:13:52   They usually only carry the low end SKU.

00:13:56   For those that buy a Mac from those places they're probably not having the best experience.

00:14:00   Okay, Amazon carries all the SKUs so that's not right.

00:14:03   In terms of Costco you buy a Mac at Costco you expect to have the best experience and

00:14:08   Apple's reputation is tarnished because the Costco Mac that's on sale for cheap isn't

00:14:13   the best experience.

00:14:14   It's an experience.

00:14:15   It's probably a good experience for the buyer who's buying a Mac at Costco that they would

00:14:20   because they're getting a deal on it.

00:14:22   Again, I'm not surprised by these arguments.

00:14:28   I don't agree and I think that they're stretching it in order to try to make this more of a

00:14:32   dramatic thing than it is which is there are people who think that Apple should stock their

00:14:37   computers with more stuff at the base model and those prices would then, I'm telling you,

00:14:42   you don't want to hear it, would be higher then.

00:14:45   They're not going to keep the same price.

00:14:46   They're going to raise the price because of the cost of doubling the RAM inside of them

00:14:51   and what happens then is those prices are higher and some people will not buy them.

00:14:56   But you'll be able to say, "Haha."

00:14:57   Well, they may not have a new computer but at least they didn't buy a computer that runs

00:15:01   slow when a lot of Chrome tabs are open.

00:15:03   So okay, that's as fiery as I'm going to get today.

00:15:07   Yeah, you know, hey look, as I said, there was some other stuff.

00:15:12   It's just gone now.

00:15:13   It's gone into the ether forever.

00:15:16   I appreciate that a lot of people are really enjoying being up in arms about this and righteous

00:15:21   about this and my role is to look at that and say, "No."

00:15:26   And people who want to be really angry and righteous about this are going to be mad about

00:15:31   that and that's fine but like I don't owe you hot takes.

00:15:36   I don't and this is not a hot take.

00:15:37   This is an ice cold take and you can take it or leave it.

00:15:42   The US Congress has demanded answers from Apple for why they canceled the problem with

00:15:46   John Stewart.

00:15:48   From a letter to Apple from a bipartisan committee, "While companies have the right to determine

00:15:55   what content is appropriate for their streaming service, the coercive tactics of a foreign

00:16:00   power should not be directly or indirectly influencing these determinations."

00:16:07   Members of Congress can write as many letters as they want and they can bring people in

00:16:11   to testify.

00:16:12   It's great for grandstanding.

00:16:13   It's great for getting people to write and talk about you as a person who is defending

00:16:21   the American way from the Chinese Communist Party.

00:16:24   So are we surprised?

00:16:25   I'm not.

00:16:26   But there was just something when I saw this headline on 9to5Mac which just made me chuckle.

00:16:32   Just like, "Oh, here's another problem."

00:16:35   This is the new problem with the problem with John Stewart.

00:16:38   Now Congress is mad.

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00:18:44   Rumour round up time.

00:18:45   Yeehaw.

00:18:46   Ming-Chi Kuo is expecting Apple to release a low cost MacBook in 2024 intended to compete

00:18:53   with Chromebooks on pricing and placement in the market.

00:18:56   This was from a couple of weeks ago and I'll read a quote from Tim Hardwick at MacRumors.

00:19:01   He says "According to the original report out of Taiwan, Apple's more affordable MacBooks

00:19:06   will adopt some design changes to enable them to achieve the low price, while the outer

00:19:12   appearance will still use a metal casing to maintain a distinctive Apple Mac aesthetic,

00:19:17   it could be made of different materials."

00:19:19   Bloomberg's Mark Gurman was first to spark serious rumours about reintroducing a 12-inch

00:19:24   MacBook model of Apple Silicon, saying last year that the device would come at the end

00:19:30   of '23 or in '24.

00:19:32   In January of 2023, Gurman said that a 12-inch MacBook was no longer on the company's near-term

00:19:37   roadmap but stopped short of ruling the device out completely, meaning that it being pushed

00:19:43   into 2024 or later may still be possible.

00:19:45   I know this is something you wanted to talk about a little bit on today's episode.

00:19:49   Yeah, I mean, it is, I'm really just tapping the sign and saying, I wrote about this in

00:19:57   September, this is it again, right, which is a lot of supply chain things come from

00:20:06   Ming Chi Kuo and it's like, "Oh, let's compete with Chromebooks and all that, like, is it

00:20:12   really going to compete with Chromebooks?"

00:20:13   Everybody jumps in and they're like, "Oh, but Chromebooks cost this and Apple's going

00:20:16   to make it."

00:20:19   The ball starts rolling and it leads to very weird places that I think are not likely to

00:20:24   happen.

00:20:25   My best guess is that these reports are all about Apple trying to create a lower priced

00:20:31   entry-level MacBook or MacBook Air because as we enter the M3 generation, the M1 MacBook

00:20:39   Air, it can keep hanging around but you do have to wonder at some point, is there an

00:20:45   alternative to just keeping the M1 Air around?

00:20:48   That might be a bunch of things, might be more appealing in that it would be designed

00:20:53   specifically instead of just starting and then rolling down.

00:20:56   Remember, it's the old design language because they didn't rev the design language until

00:20:59   M2.

00:21:00   So, is there something a little bit different that feels a little bit more modern?

00:21:04   Separately, did they design the MacBook Air with parts that are not as cheap, I'll put

00:21:15   it that way, right now as other parts that are available?

00:21:18   Is there an opportunity for them to build something that starts at a fairly low price

00:21:23   and then can stay there and then get price cuts and drop down into, like those base-level

00:21:29   iPads, drop down into a space after a few years that they really like, that is maybe

00:21:34   a place that a Mac laptop hasn't gone?

00:21:38   And so, I put those things together and that's what I keep thinking here, is that this is

00:21:41   sort of a, if you think about the iPhone SE, maybe a little bit like that, this idea of

00:21:45   can we take something using kind of existing pieces that does not cost that much for Apple

00:21:52   to build, can we take that and position it in the place where the M1 Air lives right

00:21:58   now?

00:22:01   Because I don't know if the M2 Air is enough, because it's a newer generation, like can

00:22:08   the M2 Air eventually hit the M1 Air's price?

00:22:12   Sure, I have a couple of problems with that.

00:22:14   One is, are they going to do that?

00:22:17   Or are they going to just replace the M2 Air with an M3 Air and then keep the M1 Air at

00:22:20   the bottom, right?

00:22:21   Because it's got that nice new design and they're going to want people to buy the new

00:22:27   design with the new chip in it.

00:22:29   So that's one question I would have.

00:22:31   And then, just more broadly, like how long can you keep the M1 Air around?

00:22:34   Because the M1 Air is great, it is great, but it is also going to start feeling older

00:22:40   and older and older.

00:22:41   And I just wonder if this rumor, when I saw this rumor, I thought, I wonder if they're

00:22:45   just trying to engineer the bottom of the MacBook line, because they really like having

00:22:51   a laptop down there, but it cannot be the M1 Air forever.

00:22:56   And that maybe there's another way that it can engineer something that will give them

00:22:59   the margins they want at that price point.

00:23:02   But I leave aside this Chromebook thing.

00:23:04   I mean, first off, Apple's strategy in schools is mostly iPad-based at this point.

00:23:09   And I don't think that a Mac laptop, I can't conceive of a Mac laptop ever really competing

00:23:14   with Chromebook pricing.

00:23:15   I don't think that actually makes sense.

00:23:17   Chromebooks are like a couple of hundred dollars.

00:23:19   A couple hundred bucks.

00:23:20   Apple's not going to do that.

00:23:21   They're just not going to do it.

00:23:22   No, no.

00:23:23   It's just like a computer that might start at $9.99 with education price at $8.99.

00:23:27   And then after a year, it's down a hundred bucks or 150 bucks.

00:23:32   And then they are able to sell that iteration for three or four years and then three or

00:23:36   four years down the line, they just leave it alone, but replace the chip in it and keep

00:23:40   it rolling as a small, cheap laptop, like cheap for Apple.

00:23:46   I should say again, referring to angry commenters from earlier, like cheap for Apple, which

00:23:50   is not necessarily cheap at all, but it's cheap for Apple.

00:23:54   That sounds like what this is to me.

00:23:55   I don't know.

00:23:56   Does that seem, I mean, I know Gurman also has reported about this idea of a 12 inch

00:24:02   MacBook.

00:24:04   I know we're all sort of like grasping for, it's like the, it's the men and the elephant

00:24:09   again, right?

00:24:10   The blind men and the elephant.

00:24:11   It's like, what is this?

00:24:13   What would this be?

00:24:14   And trying to like use the information and let go of the narrative and then try to figure

00:24:18   out what it might actually be that makes sense.

00:24:21   That's my best take in it is that it's got, is that it feels like that, which is M1 Air

00:24:25   is good for a while, but it's not good for the longterm.

00:24:28   What is that low end laptop?

00:24:30   And is it really just like a very old M2 Air three or four years into its lifespan?

00:24:35   I don't know.

00:24:36   I mean, the M2 Air maybe could get there eventually, but it's really nice and it's of a new generation

00:24:42   of design.

00:24:43   And I wonder if they can really get those margins down and if they want the confusion

00:24:47   since the M3 Air would presumably look exactly like the M2 Air, is that as good a place to

00:24:53   build a product as it is to build something that's essentially an M1 Air replacement for

00:24:59   down at the bottom of the price list?

00:25:01   I'm entirely unconvinced about the idea of a new Mac brought in to be a cheap Mac.

00:25:08   Like just that doesn't make sense to me.

00:25:11   I mean, I don't even think it really makes sense to me to engineer a new laptop, like

00:25:16   a 12 inch laptop.

00:25:18   Like I don't, it doesn't make sense to me like that you would take the 13 and replace

00:25:23   it with a 12.

00:25:25   Well that's at the bottom, right?

00:25:27   It's the bottom of the line though.

00:25:28   So you still have your 13.

00:25:29   It's an M3 13 that starts at like 1099 and then you replace the MacBook Air M1 with this

00:25:39   new thing and it's 99.

00:25:41   I mean, maybe it's a thin and light MacBook like the old one, but that's not the vibe

00:25:46   I get.

00:25:47   The vibe I get is that Apple's trying to make a cheaper base model.

00:25:50   Well no, because then you've introduced another more expensive laptop again.

00:25:56   That's not going to do anything.

00:25:58   And what does Apple want?

00:25:59   Apple really does want, I just keep coming, the reason I keep coming back to the M1 Air,

00:26:03   and maybe they just keep selling the M1 Air.

00:26:05   I mean, it is great for most people.

00:26:07   I just worry that it's going to feel a little creaky after a while, but I look at that and

00:26:11   like, it's a great computer at a great price.

00:26:14   I'm sure that people will write in and tell me that it's not suitable.

00:26:17   It's unsuitable and shouldn't be sold because it's not good enough.

00:26:19   But I think a lot of people really like that base model MacBook Air and it is the cheapest

00:26:25   MacBook Air you can buy.

00:26:26   You can get into a Mac laptop at that price.

00:26:29   It's very successful, very successful in lots of places.

00:26:32   But would Apple want to try to engineer?

00:26:34   I should say Apple's history here is not great with engineering cheap products.

00:26:38   It's proven, and I think Tim Cook knows this, Apple's much better at engineering products

00:26:42   and then letting them get cheaper over time than it is under engineering cheap products.

00:26:47   But I do wonder when this rumor is out there, if that's what the goal here is to just build

00:26:53   the low-end MacBook that they can keep, like the iPhone SE, that they can maybe vary it

00:26:59   over time or the, I mean, or maybe something like the iPad mini.

00:27:04   I'm trying to come up with parallels here, but imagine a product that gets designed to

00:27:08   be as cheap to make as Apple is willing to make it and built so that they can every few

00:27:15   years swap in some modern processors at the low end, but not do anything else to it.

00:27:20   And it allows them to have that product at the bottom of the price list.

00:27:24   We've been, all these debates about the MacBook Pro in the middle of the price list, but like

00:27:29   this is really playing out at the bottom of the price list because it matters.

00:27:33   Why is that weird iPad still being sold?

00:27:36   It's the same story because I'm sure a lot of people who complain about MacBook Pro would

00:27:40   probably say that, why is that weird dumb iPad still around?

00:27:44   It's got all the old tech and uses the old pencil and all these things.

00:27:48   And the reason is the same actually, which is there's a market that refuses to pay more

00:27:52   than that price.

00:27:53   And so Apple's going to hit that price.

00:27:54   And I wonder if that's the goal here for the MacBook Air or the low-end MacBook Mac laptop

00:28:00   line.

00:28:01   You mentioned the iPad mini, which is like a funny thing to mention, because I think

00:28:05   it kind of exemplifies where I'm coming from with this, which is like the iPad mini is

00:28:08   smaller and it's an original design and it's more expensive than the bigger one.

00:28:14   And I feel like that for me is why I can't imagine them creating a new chassis for the

00:28:20   cheap laptop.

00:28:21   I can just see them more likely giving it another year or two and then they sell an

00:28:27   M2 MacBook Air, which is like in the new style for cheaper than the M4 or M5 MacBook Air.

00:28:35   That is the current, like, here's the thing.

00:28:38   To me, that makes the most sense than creating a brand new product and making it the cheap

00:28:44   one.

00:28:45   Because I don't think that they're very good at that.

00:28:50   What they're better at is what you mentioned, right?

00:28:51   So like, look at the iPhone SE or whatever.

00:28:54   It's just a really old design, right?

00:28:56   Or like, look at the ninth generation iPad is the cheapest one because it's a really

00:29:00   old design.

00:29:01   And I think to me, it feels more likely that they would just use what they've already

00:29:06   gotten that they make up volume and they've understood how to make it as cheap as possible

00:29:10   and then make it cheaper by putting in older guts and just sell it forever, which I think

00:29:15   is the Tim Cook way we've seen that.

00:29:17   And every time they've tried to introduce this, like, hey, here's a new thing in the

00:29:21   lineup.

00:29:22   It's always more expensive.

00:29:23   And so it doesn't make sense.

00:29:25   This rumor doesn't make sense to me from any of the ways in which people are trying to

00:29:30   position it as a thing.

00:29:33   Well, this is the thing that gives me pause, right?

00:29:36   Because they generally are not good at doing a brand new, like, it's just not what they

00:29:42   do, right?

00:29:43   They're like, ah, we're going to build this product.

00:29:44   It's going to be real good.

00:29:45   And then somebody has to be the one inside Apple to say, no, no, no, it can't be real

00:29:49   good.

00:29:50   It can't be.

00:29:52   It's got to be cheap.

00:29:53   And they just, it's real hard.

00:29:55   It's just not what they're made.

00:29:56   It's not how they're wired.

00:29:58   Right.

00:29:59   So I do wonder with this, like, yeah, one path is that it's going to be like that 12

00:30:06   inch MacBook was, which was way too expensive.

00:30:08   Right.

00:30:09   That was the number one thing wrong with it is that it didn't really match the MacBook

00:30:12   Air.

00:30:13   Um, and I mean, it had, it was underpowered one port, all those things too, but also like

00:30:18   it costs too much.

00:30:19   It costs too much.

00:30:20   So can they do it?

00:30:23   Do they need to do it?

00:30:26   The right answer here is what if they took the M1 MacBook Air and just, you know, kept

00:30:31   it around or eventually put an M2 in it, but it's literally just that M1 MacBook Air.

00:30:38   And I wonder if that is either too confusing or they decided, well, no, no, if we're going

00:30:42   to do this in the long run and we want something down here, the right way to do it is to build

00:30:46   this smaller laptop for cheaper and get it in the price list.

00:30:50   I think there's a real good chance that what happens is this product does come out and

00:30:54   it is, it is not cheap.

00:30:57   Right.

00:30:58   I think, I think there's a real good chance that comes out and it's $999 or it's $1099.

00:31:01   And people are like, well, wait a second.

00:31:02   I thought this was the cheap MacBook that was going to be down there with a Chromebook.

00:31:05   And the answer is again, it would not be surprising if the answer is, well, no, it's $999 and

00:31:10   next year it'll be $899.

00:31:12   And the year after that, it'll be $799.

00:31:15   And that's just how they get it down there.

00:31:19   And then eventually they get it down there and they can keep it down there, or they can

00:31:23   rev the chip on it and keep it close to down in that price point.

00:31:26   Anyway, that's my guess.

00:31:28   I don't have any inside information here about this.

00:31:30   I just, I'm trying to guess why would they, why would there even be rumors of a product

00:31:35   like this?

00:31:36   And that's my best guess.

00:31:37   I don't think it's going to be a plastic crappy Chromebook competitor.

00:31:41   I feel like it's pretty clear that they want a laptop that's sub a thousand and the only

00:31:47   way that they have reliably gotten there is by having it be an old laptop.

00:31:53   So is this a new old laptop?

00:31:54   We don't need a thin and light anymore because they already make it.

00:31:57   It's called the MacBook Air, right?

00:32:00   That is about, I can't imagine, I can't imagine a MacBook getting thinner than that one, honestly.

00:32:05   Like I don't know how you could do it without some kind of breakthrough in technology.

00:32:08   Like it just feels like it's about as thin as you could make something like that and

00:32:13   still be able to do all of the things that you want the thing to do.

00:32:18   You can't have any ports, so where's the USB-C going to go?

00:32:22   The little MacBook I think could be done as an Apple Silicon Mac and would be thinner

00:32:30   and lighter.

00:32:31   My concern is not one edge though.

00:32:33   You know, like it's the teardrop shapes.

00:32:34   It's kind of true.

00:32:35   True.

00:32:36   It's true.

00:32:38   My big thing that gives me pause about all these rumors is 12 inch.

00:32:40   Now we don't know what 12 inch means.

00:32:42   12.5 inches and only a little bit smaller than the 13 inch or what?

00:32:46   Because Apple has been designing Mac OS for larger screens over time.

00:32:51   Trust me, as somebody who's an 11 inch MacBook Air for a while, it was very clear that Apple

00:32:55   was like, I would literally get dialogue boxes that I couldn't, that couldn't fit on the

00:33:00   screen, right?

00:33:03   So Apple has been kind of assuming that the average user is using a 13 inch MacBook Air

00:33:08   at this point, right?

00:33:09   That's the most popular or maybe a little larger, but that was the smallest.

00:33:13   So to have it be a smaller screen, I actually, I think that's the part that gives me the

00:33:17   most pause is I'm not sure Mac OS wants it to be smaller than the 13, but we'll see,

00:33:23   or we won't if this doesn't happen.

00:33:25   I don't know.

00:33:27   Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple's plans to build cell modems into MacBooks could take

00:33:31   into at least 2028.

00:33:35   The timelines that Apple have been working on for shipping their own iPhone modems, which

00:33:39   have come first, has continuously slipped.

00:33:42   We've mentioned this in the past.

00:33:44   Current estimates would be the 2026 iPhone at the earliest to get Apple's own modem chips.

00:33:51   Once they've done this, Gurman says that Apple would need multiple years from then on to

00:33:56   get their other products up and running, which would be the watch, the iPad and the Mac.

00:34:00   The Mac probably being the last in 2028 at the earliest.

00:34:04   The plan will be to obviously integrate this technology into the Apple Silicon system on

00:34:09   a chip.

00:34:10   Eventually, but not initially, right?

00:34:13   That is part of the report here is that the ultimate goal would be that all the cellular

00:34:17   stuff would just be built into the package like everything else, into the M series chips

00:34:24   and the A series chips and all of that.

00:34:26   This is, his report's great.

00:34:31   It includes somebody saying something like, "I'm not sure how they thought that buying

00:34:38   a failed business, Intel's modem business, would succeed," which is brutal.

00:34:46   But it's true though, right?

00:34:48   They bought it because Intel couldn't do it.

00:34:50   So Intel sold it to them, I'm assuming, basically for parts.

00:34:54   And that only happened because Apple was trying to get Qualcomm to blink and Qualcomm wouldn't

00:34:58   blink.

00:34:59   And they had to do something on their own.

00:35:02   And I totally get this.

00:35:03   I think it's obviously a hard problem and Qualcomm has spent a lot of time.

00:35:08   This is so core to the Qualcomm's identity.

00:35:12   And Apple has to catch up with decades of Qualcomm knowledge here.

00:35:21   The article makes the point too that part of Qualcomm's knowledge base is they've had

00:35:26   their parts out all over the world.

00:35:30   And so they've encountered all the quirks and weirdnesses and have learned from them.

00:35:36   And Apple's problem is Apple can't surreptitiously license their modems to phones that are being

00:35:44   sold in random places around the world and learn from them.

00:35:47   The way Apple's gonna roll this out is it's gonna put it in an Apple product and sell

00:35:51   it everywhere in the world.

00:35:52   And so it doesn't have that advantage that Qualcomm has had about being everywhere and

00:35:57   learning everything.

00:35:59   So they have to do it sort of artificially, which is really difficult.

00:36:02   So it's difficult and it's also mission critical for Apple.

00:36:09   These products, the iPhone is like, they can't screw up cellular on an iPhone.

00:36:12   They just can't do it.

00:36:14   The one thing that surprises me here is I started to think maybe this would be better

00:36:18   if you tried it on the Mac or the iPad, because if the cellular didn't work very well on the

00:36:23   Mac or the iPad, the recommendation would be, well, just don't buy the cellular model.

00:36:28   And it's not that big a deal, but with an iPhone, you can't do that.

00:36:32   It has to work.

00:36:34   So this is pushing back because Qualcomm, they extended their deal right through 26,

00:36:40   I think.

00:36:41   - Yeah, it keeps getting kicked on as Apple continues to not be able to do what they want.

00:36:45   But it's gonna get kicked on further because if they're gonna start in 26, remember the

00:36:50   whole story was they're gonna start with a low volume product like the iPhone SE and

00:36:53   try it out before giving it to the crown jewels of the main line iPhones.

00:37:00   So if it's 26, is that 26 for the iPhone SE?

00:37:04   And then the iPhone proper, assuming it all works okay, will come later.

00:37:09   And then they roll it out to watch an iPad and Mac.

00:37:12   And so I saw some articles over the weekend that said something like, "Big news, Apple's

00:37:16   gonna put its own cellular technology into Macs."

00:37:18   And I'm like, I really admire the person who read that story and took that away from it,

00:37:24   because it is a fact that is stated that the goal is ultimately to get them in the Mac.

00:37:28   But it's literally after they do everything with everything else as a standalone thing,

00:37:35   eventually they will integrate it with their chips at which point the Mac will get it.

00:37:41   So like, I don't know, I'm getting closer to saying that the Mac isn't gonna have Apple

00:37:49   cellular in it.

00:37:51   Mac laptops aren't gonna have Apple cellular in it until like the 2030s at this point,

00:37:56   a date beginning with 203.

00:37:58   I could see this genuinely like I have a lot of faith in Apple obviously as a company.

00:38:03   And you know, they've done incredible things.

00:38:06   It would not surprise me if they just never make this work.

00:38:09   But the reason I think about it is if imagine taking Antennagate and Apple Maps and smooshing

00:38:16   them together, right?

00:38:19   Because if you ship an iPhone and it can't connect to the internet.

00:38:27   Remember when they shipped the iPhone with two different chips?

00:38:29   There was like the Intel one and the Qualcomm one and people were like, "Oh, you don't want

00:38:32   the Intel one."

00:38:33   That was just unreliable, right?

00:38:35   So like, if like, you know, as we were saying, right, imagine if the iPhone just doesn't

00:38:41   work in France and Spain.

00:38:43   Just doesn't work.

00:38:44   Because as you said, like Qualcomm have this knowledge, right?

00:38:47   Like this is a monumental effort that has catastrophic outcome.

00:38:54   This feels so hard to do because it is absolutely core to the experience of using this device,

00:39:03   right?

00:39:04   - You can't get it wrong because it's half your revenue.

00:39:06   You can't get it wrong.

00:39:07   You're gonna kill.

00:39:08   - Yes.

00:39:09   - Like it's never, let's look at it from another perspective.

00:39:13   It will never win the argument that it's more worth taking the risk than paying Qualcomm.

00:39:21   It will never win that argument, right?

00:39:23   As long as there's risk, it will never win that argument because you would be like, which

00:39:28   would you prefer rolling the dice with our stuff that may fail and kill the iPhone or

00:39:34   paying Qualcomm?

00:39:35   The answer is simple, pay Qualcomm.

00:39:36   - Especially Qualcomm's never gonna say no to the money.

00:39:39   The only person making that decision is Apple, right?

00:39:42   Like Qualcomm will take that money from Apple for as long as it is given.

00:39:46   Like it has to be someone at Apple says, "We should do this."

00:39:51   - Let me put out, this is probably not true, but I'm gonna put it out there as a little

00:39:56   conspiracy theory.

00:39:57   I wanna throw it out there.

00:39:58   - I love it.

00:39:59   - Apple's whole, the doctrine here is, and this comes from Steve Jobs.

00:40:04   It's always, sometimes people will talk about Tim Cook, but it's from Steve Jobs.

00:40:08   Never allow a third party to be in control of a thing that is key and core to your business,

00:40:15   right?

00:40:17   And this goes back, my memory of the best example of this from the early days was Safari

00:40:25   because Macs were getting raked over the coals as being inferior to PCs at web browsing in

00:40:30   the '90s and early 2000s because the default browser was Internet Explorer on the Mac and

00:40:36   it wasn't very good.

00:40:38   And yes, that meant that Apple was being unfavorably compared to Microsoft because Microsoft's

00:40:45   browser on the Mac was bad.

00:40:47   And you're Steve Jobs and you're like, "We can't allow this to happen."

00:40:51   How is it that people's judgment about whether our computer is good or not is based on the

00:40:55   quality of the resources being put at the Mac browser inside Microsoft?

00:41:02   And IE for Mac started out good and then it got bad.

00:41:06   Anyway, it happens with a lot of Microsoft products on the Mac, maybe in general.

00:41:11   So what if though Apple's not quite doing that this time?

00:41:18   This is my conspiracy theory.

00:41:20   What if this is a hedge?

00:41:23   What if it's a little like Apple working on its own search engine and putting it in a

00:41:30   few places in Siri, but not doing its own search engine because it's got its deal with

00:41:35   Google?

00:41:36   And this is not quite the same, but what if the whole reason Apple bought the Intel business

00:41:40   and is working on this, maybe it is ultimately to build those cellular chips, but maybe it's

00:41:49   more as a hedge against Qualcomm acting badly.

00:41:55   And what if Apple is okay pushing back the launch of their chips with cellular capabilities

00:42:03   to 22 and 24 and 26 and beyond?

00:42:09   What if Apple's okay with it because its deal that it just made with Qualcomm is fine and

00:42:15   they don't want to be beholden to Qualcomm forever because that would affect their relationship

00:42:21   with Qualcomm?

00:42:23   Or at least they don't want Qualcomm to think that they're beholden to them.

00:42:27   Exactly.

00:42:28   So what if this is not Apple's crash course to replace Qualcomm and by gum they're going

00:42:33   to do it, by hook or by crook, because they got to get out from under the thumb of Qualcomm.

00:42:37   And it is instead Apple's going to keep puttering away on this and maybe at some point they'll

00:42:42   replace Qualcomm and they're also going to replace like the rumors are the Bluetooth

00:42:48   and Wi-Fi stuff like Broadcom and some other stuff that's in there.

00:42:51   They also want to replace those.

00:42:53   But again, I'm not sure there's a ticking clock here, right?

00:42:56   I mean, I know they're spending money on it, but like there is value in just working on

00:43:01   it until it's ready and having your supplier know that if they screw up or displease you

00:43:09   or overcharge you, they're making it more likely that they'll lose your business.

00:43:14   Because trust me, I know that Apple and Qualcomm don't get along very well.

00:43:17   They had those lawsuits, although it's all settled now, but like Qualcomm wants Apple's

00:43:21   business, right?

00:43:23   Qualcomm wants to never lose Apple as a customer.

00:43:27   One of their executives was quoted as saying, "If it lasts longer than this deal, it's all

00:43:32   upside."

00:43:33   Right?

00:43:34   Like they're happy for the upside.

00:43:35   If they're walking out the door, so be it.

00:43:37   But if they stay, that's just more money for us.

00:43:40   We like it.

00:43:41   So I do wonder if maybe it's not a conspiracy and Apple doesn't actually intend to ship

00:43:46   cellular chips.

00:43:47   I don't think that's true, but I do wonder if it's a continuum where it's sort of like,

00:43:51   "It's okay.

00:43:52   We'll put it off some more."

00:43:54   And that maybe we should all be viewing this as part of a kind of grander game and not

00:43:59   just Apple's moonshot is getting delayed further and further.

00:44:03   Speaking of delays, Mark Gorman is also reporting that the Vision Pro is now being targeted

00:44:09   for a March release as Apple continues to finalize the OS.

00:44:13   They have planned for January 2024 at one point, but are moving the date to further

00:44:18   improve the user experience.

00:44:20   And I also saw recently on MacRumors, they posted some onboarding videos that were found

00:44:25   in Vision OS Beta 6.

00:44:27   This made me think that it was coming very soon because the onboarding videos are in

00:44:32   the beta all of a sudden, but it seems like now maybe it's still a couple of extra months

00:44:37   than we may have assumed.

00:44:39   Well if you think it's a holiday week this week in America and Christmas is coming up

00:44:44   next month and the amount of effort to launch a product in January, Gorman always points

00:44:49   out that they don't love launching products in January.

00:44:52   One reason they don't love it, this is one of the reasons they didn't want to do MacWorld

00:44:55   Expo anymore because that was in early January, they don't love it is that Apple likes to

00:45:00   announce and release products, which means the products need to be ready, which means

00:45:02   they need to be locked down and you start to back it up and now you're in Christmas

00:45:06   and you're in the holidays and all the way back to Thanksgiving and it's not ideal.

00:45:13   So it wouldn't surprise me that, I mean this report doesn't surprise me too much.

00:45:17   I said last week, I felt like it was going to be soon and in winter and not like, I didn't

00:45:21   think it would be in May.

00:45:23   March is not unreasonable.

00:45:27   It's a little later than I thought but I wasn't really expecting it at a particular date.

00:45:30   I just thought it would be sooner rather than later because it just seemed like they were

00:45:36   getting there but I guess they're not getting there quite as quickly as they would like.

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00:47:51   Our thanks to electric for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:47:55   Friend of the show, Chance Miller at 9to5mac got a HUGE scoop from Apple that in 2024 they

00:48:07   will be adopting the RCS messaging standard and integrating it into the messages app.

00:48:13   I will give you some background in case you are unfamiliar.

00:48:16   RCS, also known as Rich Communication Services is essentially a replacement for SMS and MMS

00:48:22   messaging.

00:48:23   It is widely used on Android as a way to ensure high quality media is shared with messages.

00:48:30   It supports read receipts, has typing indicators and can also support encryption in some cases

00:48:36   depending on the version of RCS adopted.

00:48:39   There has been a wide push from Android device makers including Google and Samsung for Apple

00:48:44   to adopt RCS to allow Android users to reach parity with iMessage and stop the green bubbles.

00:48:52   This is the statement Apple gave to 9to5mac.

00:48:55   Later next year we will be adding support for RCS Universal Profile.

00:49:00   The standard is currently published by the GSM Association.

00:49:04   We believe RCS Universal Profile will offer a better interoperability experience when

00:49:10   compared to SMS or MMS.

00:49:13   This will work alongside iMessage which will continue to be the best and most secure messaging

00:49:17   experience for Apple users.

00:49:20   The most likely benefits that Apple will be integrating from RCS into messages will be

00:49:25   high quality media, read receipts and typing indicators, location sharing and of course

00:49:32   working over data or wifi, not needing cell reception necessarily or you wouldn't have

00:49:39   to think about message allowances with your carrier.

00:49:47   Apple confirmed additionally they will still be classing these messages as green bubbles

00:49:52   so not going to be a different bubble and it's not going to be like a different app

00:49:56   or whatever it will sit alongside iMessage in the messages app the same way that SMS

00:50:00   does it will not integrate fully with iMessage it will not replace anything specifically.

00:50:08   Apple has also said that it will work with the GSMA to further enhance the RCS standard.

00:50:13   They want to work on end to end encryption as well like being a thing in the standard.

00:50:20   So if you may think hey but RCS does do encryption.

00:50:23   Device makers, OS or manufacturers can put end to end encryption on top of RCS but it's

00:50:29   not part of the standard.

00:50:31   So it's on the Google Pixel for example it has end to end encryption for messages using

00:50:36   RCS but that's Google putting that on top it's not actually in the standard.

00:50:41   What is your take on this?

00:50:42   This is very much well I think it's great on last week's MacBreak Weekly I actually

00:50:47   got in an argument about this where I said Apple should just do this it feels like spite

00:50:51   that they're only supporting SMS and MMS to Android.

00:50:55   This is not about blue bubbles versus green bubbles it's about making the experience of

00:50:59   talking to your green bubble Android friends not stink and it's an iPhone user experience

00:51:05   issue it's not just an Android user experience issue and just saying by your grandma on iPhone

00:51:10   is not a good enough answer.

00:51:12   People have Android phones we have to deal with this it should be better it should be

00:51:16   better and they did it right or they said they would do it in the future that's great.

00:51:21   I do think and I'm sure there's a is it the boyfriend meme I'm not sure which meme is

00:51:25   going to be most appropriate here but I have been pondering it because what's happened

00:51:28   is Google is out there going Apple stop the blue bubble hysteria RCS is great join us

00:51:36   join us join us and they do that for years and then finally they're like Apple look it's

00:51:40   a standard GSM Association endorses it join us and Apple starts walking toward them and

00:51:49   Google's like oh my god they're picking me they're picking me they're coming over they're

00:51:52   coming over and they walk over to the GSMA and shake their hands and say we're happy

00:51:58   to be working with the GSMA and in the future we'll work with them on more stuff like encryption

00:52:03   and Google's like we're yay Apple came over here yay but they're not with Apple in the

00:52:11   GSMA they're like off to the side that seems right it's like an Apple will not look at

00:52:17   them Apple will not meet their eyes right Apple is very focused on the GSMA as Google

00:52:23   stands are going like but me right like you're gonna look at me right and Apple Apple's never

00:52:29   gonna look at you that's what's going on here I think it's kind of fascinating right Apple's

00:52:34   just like hey GSMA has this thing called RCS we're gonna work with them on security and

00:52:41   and Google's like oh I did security and Apple's like is there a buzzing sound anyway we're

00:52:46   gonna work with the GSMA on security it's amazing amazing this is I mean this is so

00:52:53   like okay in talking about this yeah we're not like this is the right thing to do Apple

00:53:00   should and like it would be great if Apple kept blue bubbles and green bubbles forever

00:53:06   like obviously as a human being in the world I think it would be great if this all just

00:53:11   worked and people didn't have to make those distinctions right but we also need to when

00:53:16   we're talking about this be realistic right in understanding that Apple use iMessage as

00:53:22   a competitive advantage and a lock-in for their platform like we must take that as a

00:53:28   thing and also be like okay this is what you get blue bubbles means something yes blue

00:53:34   bubbles means something it means and the people who argue about the blue and green bubbles

00:53:38   don't get it or don't want to get it blue bubble means it's end-to-end encrypted going

00:53:44   through iMessage it it means something and green bubbles mean it doesn't have that and

00:53:50   Apple would be wrong to conflate them right it would be wrong because you wouldn't be

00:53:57   able to tell whether your message was secure or not and that's not great yeah but so let's

00:54:02   be real though if they are able to get end-to-end encryption on RCS they're still not gonna

00:54:06   make a blue well yeah okay all right that may be the case but that's theoretical right

00:54:12   because we're nowhere near there at this point we're nowhere near there and you do need to

00:54:16   indicate this I mean I guess you could do it with something other than color but like

00:54:19   they chose color to differentiate initially because they built this whole new system that

00:54:22   uses IP you know instead of using the carriers and that is encrypted and that has all these

00:54:29   other features and they used blue to differentiate it now with this they're gonna get something

00:54:33   that is not SMS and MMS which is great but it's also not iMessage so they could have

00:54:38   chosen another color they've chosen not to I think that's interesting in the long run

00:54:43   like if it does have security would you not want to indicate security regardless but like

00:54:47   there's a reason why but again why why would Apple Mike why would Apple announce a feature

00:54:56   that doesn't exist that will be implemented quote later next year why would Apple on a

00:55:06   on a on a random week in November announce that like surely there must be or was there

00:55:15   a big like GSMA event no no that didn't happen we cast our eyes over to our friends little

00:55:22   least of here in the European Union yeah Apple is trying to prove that it is not a gatekeeper

00:55:30   to stop the EU telling them they need to fully open up and make everything interoperable

00:55:35   this is all a part of the DMA this and if you remember in last week's rumor roundup

00:55:42   we made reference to something Mark Gurman said about changes to iMessage this right

00:55:49   that so Apple I think a couple of days ago so a couple of days after the RCS thing filed

00:55:58   their legal challenge to the European Union so to try and say we are not a gatekeeper

00:56:05   and this is one of the things that they will have put into that challenge and like exactly

00:56:10   hey we're interoperable and open we're integrating with RCS so people like they and this is also

00:56:16   a lot of stuff like if they're going to do the side loading that's what that's for too

00:56:20   in the whole way of like we have these list of things that we are doing and are willing

00:56:25   to do you know I'm sure the USBC they can lump in there to be like look sure look we

00:56:32   are very willing to see the new iPhones yeah to do you know we are very willing to be a

00:56:37   part of this and make things easier because what they don't want the European Union to

00:56:40   do is say you are a gatekeeper we demand that you open up this this and this and make this

00:56:47   interoperable so they will give an inch so they don't have to give a mile like that's

00:56:52   what's going on here yeah it is part of their argument my guess is going to be that that

00:57:01   trying to first off I think it's impractical to force a company that has built a secure

00:57:08   system for their users to make it open or make it insecure or make them build new software

00:57:18   to run on other platforms because it's like a common carrier it seems this is one of those

00:57:24   things where I think the idea that the EU could just say oh we will like iMessage and

00:57:29   we want to have it everywhere so you just have to do that now is I think kind of ludicrous

00:57:36   but in order to make their counter argument what they're saying is look look look there

00:57:41   they got their arm around their buddy GSMA and they're like look we're going to support

00:57:45   this standard and we're going to work with them to make it more secure on a broad level

00:57:50   I guess okay whatever and that's that's the what they're trying to do is make a contrast

00:57:56   right and say here is a public standard that we are now supporting for doing this sort

00:58:01   of thing yay and then we're also going to do our own thing for our customers and that's

00:58:06   our business and get out of our business but we will also support this more broadly yeah

00:58:12   and that argument doesn't work if you're like yeah you know there are other things out there

00:58:16   they offer potentially in the future security and functionality to other users but we don't

00:58:20   care we're going to refuse to support them and only do iMessage it's a weaker argument

00:58:24   so here they are they're going to be able to make a stronger argument for a thing that

00:58:27   again I'll point out doesn't exist and won't exist until later next year which who knows

00:58:31   what that means like is that iOS 18 is that next November iOS 18.2 is is it a late iOS

00:58:39   17 feature who knows who knows what that is but they need to they need to get it out there

00:58:44   now as a statement as a policy statement so that they can make the argument that they

00:58:50   have an alternative to iMessage that they also support that as an open standard they

00:58:55   could also you know the European Union could say that's fine make an iMessage app for Android

00:58:59   they could I I would be interested to see the legal argument there right and this goes

00:59:07   back to something we talked about way back when about the US government talking to Apple

00:59:11   where the US government at one point basically said or part of the government the FBI or

00:59:17   whatever said we want Apple to build a special version of iOS for us to use for hacking the

00:59:25   phones of suspects in crimes and what I felt then I feel now which is seems awfully weird

00:59:34   for regulators and governments to demand that companies build certain kinds of software

00:59:43   in certain places seems awfully strong intervention right doesn't mean they can't do it I don't

00:59:49   know the legal legal deals of it but that's what the DMA is for right like this is this

00:59:56   is the European Union create trying to create a new law to say if you are deemed a gatekeeper

01:00:03   and this is like a new thing that they're going to start to determine in European law

01:00:07   sure you have new rules yeah but it's the difference between saying is do we if the

01:00:16   bouncer at the club entrance has to let everybody in or the subway has to let everybody in right

01:00:24   it's and that's what that gatekeeper is trying to do is say like it becomes de facto kind

01:00:28   of a common carrier everybody's using it I feel like with iMessage and this is the I

01:00:33   think there's a real strong argument especially since iMessage isn't particularly popular

01:00:37   in Europe that Apple is going to be able to get away with it because it's not it's not

01:00:43   a common anything in Europe it's just not that thing but I do find it I personally I

01:00:49   find it deeply offensive that you could build a product for your customers that's so good

01:00:55   that everybody else wishes they had it so a government or entity comes in and says it's

01:01:00   the law that you have to make it for everybody else now like that's bananas well okay so

01:01:06   here's here's I think I straddle these lines sometimes at a certain point does something

01:01:15   not become so large it's like a utility and if something becomes like a utility shouldn't

01:01:24   there be rules about how it can operate like we're entering monopoly discussion right in

01:01:30   this way right and that's that that's the question and that's what I'm that's what I'm

01:01:33   saying is at what point is your club so large that the bouncer has to let everybody in that's

01:01:39   the question I guess you go from like nightclub to park right at that point yeah yeah yeah

01:01:47   park is even better than subway right it's a public it's a public space and you built

01:01:51   it but there's a question like if you if does Apple Park have to let everybody in because

01:01:55   it's really nice like I this is the question public versus private and controlling these

01:02:00   powerful private entities and telling them what to do and it's it's a difficult question

01:02:04   I I think somebody in the the discord is saying well what about demanding rot not in demanding

01:02:10   that they make I message for Android but demanding that I message be opened up to be interoperable

01:02:15   in some way and that the challenge there is you start to say well do we lose all our security

01:02:19   if we do that is this a a a way for them to say you actually have to break a bunch of

01:02:24   things in your product in order to open them up to the rest of the world and then it's

01:02:29   not the product anymore right it's not that product are they just outlawing I message

01:02:34   at that point I I don't know but look I I don't like Apple's complete control over its

01:02:43   platforms but at the same time I'm not sure I believe that the that anybody should say

01:02:56   Apple can't have the App Store and that's not quite what they're saying they're saying there

01:03:01   have to be others and there has to be competition on Apple's platforms I see that's where I

01:03:07   sort of straddle it which is like well first off they're not a monopoly they're a monopoly

01:03:11   on their products which are not a monopoly therefore they're not a monopoly at the same

01:03:16   time they exert so much control and the user choice is so limited especially since it is

01:03:22   a monopsony it's really just Apple and the Play Store controlling most of this that you

01:03:28   do need to provide alternative access because they've gotten too much power over their customers

01:03:33   because it's like they they you could I feel like you can make an argument it's hard that

01:03:38   like they are a monopoly on mobile software but but here's the thing I message of all

01:03:51   the things to talk about it's it's just like the I message thing it feels just like kind

01:03:58   of like FOMO to me like it's irrelevant it's irrelevant there are so many different messaging

01:04:04   apps there's so much competition in messaging I'm what does I message lock anybody into

01:04:11   really right especially in Europe like there are so many different chat alternatives to

01:04:17   do that are encrypted that have better features that don't have stupid tap back emoji stickers

01:04:23   but real emoji reactions sorry got off track there there's just so much that of all the

01:04:29   like what problem is that trying to solve people feel bad about green bubbles well it

01:04:34   might not even solve that problem like it's irrelevant there are bigger fish to fry something

01:04:39   like the App Store is certainly a better target than I message of all things I say the hero

01:04:44   of the story chance Miller is saying on a disk or one of Apple's arguments in the EU

01:04:48   is that I message is not big enough in the EU to be a gatekeeper the threshold is 45

01:04:52   million users so Apple saying it has under that and look that's one thing but this isn't

01:04:57   the whole thing right like they are the EU is not just going off the I message it is

01:05:03   also the App Store and like this is the shoe that hasn't dropped they are obviously over

01:05:07   the gatekeeper threshold is set by the EU but like I also like let's look at the EU

01:05:16   as a proxy here right and then like imagine this conversation in the US right about gatekeeper

01:05:23   and like I I do believe that I message is a lock-in product a hundred percent in my

01:05:30   opinion it is there will be lots of people that would not I'm sure I feel anyway would

01:05:35   not switch to Android because then they won't have I message anymore okay so what I would

01:05:42   say about that is I think that I think that it is true it is one of the reasons that people

01:05:46   stay on iPhone but I would say I don't think making your product be one that people want

01:05:55   to keep is fundamentally wrong I don't I think it's like saying it's like saying oh Apple

01:06:03   you make these nice aluminum chassis for your computers you can't do that you're people

01:06:11   like them too much we got we got a you can't you can't you got to stop but in software

01:06:17   they can say oh no no people like people like to use I message in America so we need to

01:06:21   stop it like there are other message apps you can use but but no but people like yours

01:06:25   so everybody needs to be able to use it that's such a strange way to take it and again I

01:06:30   this is why I'm saying I think the App Store there are much better arguments for that I

01:06:34   message it just seems stupid to me like there are so many other options there's no issue

01:06:39   of competitiveness with I message there's issue of lock-in but lock-in is about the

01:06:44   advantage of I message people want to use it they want to stay because it has value

01:06:49   to them in some way that's not the same that's just not the same if we look at the whole

01:06:57   look at the bigger picture on this right which is where I feel more strongly is like I message

01:07:03   on its own whatever but like it's it's to me the thing where I feel like I think they

01:07:09   need to soften is that it's when you get when you create a product which people want to

01:07:16   use so much that it becomes so successful it's then what you choose to do with that

01:07:22   success and what Apple chose to do with that success was take every single penny they could

01:07:29   right like they sure we talk about right looks like the way in which they lock things down

01:07:35   with developers and then they don't let them link out of the App Store and then when they

01:07:40   you know and that's like oh we're gonna create this whole method for you to use your own

01:07:45   purchasing but then we're gonna audit you for 30% it's like create this incredible product

01:07:52   that people want to use get loads of customers have tons of success but then there are all

01:07:59   these other parts around it where I feel like for me I can't argue for them because I don't

01:08:06   think that they use their whole suite of levers in a way that always sits with me I feel like

01:08:16   their answer is turn every lever to on on the money machine and I feel like they maybe

01:08:23   could do less that sometimes this is the even back to I message for a second like that was

01:08:29   why I made the argument about Apple supporting RCS last week before they said they would yeah

01:08:34   is it's one thing to say people like I message and another thing to say although this form

01:08:40   other format has been out there for a long time we're gonna not support it and and just

01:08:46   keep the thing that we built into the iPhone in 2007 that is really bad compared to the

01:08:52   other things that are out there because we want to squeeze it we want it to hurt so that

01:08:56   you have to stay on I message because if you go this other way it's gonna be painful because

01:09:02   we've withheld things that would make it less painful and on the app store side there are

01:09:08   plenty of examples of that that that over the years you and I have detailed like what

01:09:11   bothers me like I'm not sure I really like this idea that maybe it's gonna be alternate

01:09:16   app stores because it just means alternate gatekeepers I hate that I hate that idea but

01:09:22   it it does have the effect of yeah your apps are worse you can't buy a you can't buy a

01:09:27   book in the Kindle app it's so stupid but you can in the iBooks app because Apple has

01:09:33   preferred its own store and because it acts as its own middleman that's so anti-competitive

01:09:38   and ridiculous and I hate it you can't link out to things on the web other than like now

01:09:44   one thing somewhere and not really anything useful it's ridiculous and for me the biggest

01:09:50   killer is if you're somebody who's built all of your skills in using Apple's platforms

01:09:56   and you have an idea for an app and on on an iPhone or an iPad and Apple for whatever

01:10:03   reason doesn't like your idea or doesn't like you or doesn't like your app you can't ever

01:10:10   release it you can't ever release it on iPhone and iPad because at the the place where you

01:10:15   ply your trade because Apple is the only path I hate that too so there's lots of things

01:10:20   to hate here I just I roll my eyes at iMessage in Europe especially because like for Pete's

01:10:25   sake I realize it's part of a larger conversation and I actually think that's why the RCS move

01:10:31   is such a great move because it is Apple finally saying all right we will not aggressively

01:10:37   degrade the non iMessage experience in our default app right like I get it that that

01:10:43   is it's a pretty good move it should have happened years ago but it's a pretty good

01:10:46   move but like there are so many other places where I feel like Apple as you say has all

01:10:51   the levers switched in one direction and the question is just how do you stop that and

01:10:55   the answers are I guess switch to Android but even there there's a lot of problems and

01:11:01   that that's not a great answer

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01:12:56   thanks to text expander for their support of this show and relay FM. So it is the 20th

01:13:03   of November 2023 and the entire world of technology has been raptured over the weekend by the

01:13:13   goings on open AI and I give the date because probably about a time with the way that this

01:13:20   news has unfurled the last four days by the time this episode comes out I expect things

01:13:26   to have changed again I don't know but it's impossible to at least I there will be developments

01:13:32   I'm sure certainly there's gonna be a lot more detail happening although I feel like

01:13:36   we've gotten to a point where we actually can talk about it now which was not the case

01:13:39   the last four days so effectively the summary is on November 17th open AI's board kind of

01:13:50   out of nowhere announced that co-founder and CEO Sam Altman had been removed as CEO effective

01:13:57   immediately the board said that after review it quote concluded that he was not consistently

01:14:04   candid in his communications of the board hindering its ability to exercise its responsibilities

01:14:11   there is kind of been no more information given from the open AI board since then to

01:14:15   really talk about anything that's been rumored has been conjecture but nothing else then

01:14:20   there were talks over the weekend which was even I think the most bizarre thing of this

01:14:25   where then open AI's board were having talks with Sam Altman about bringing him back kind

01:14:30   of within 24 hours and this seems to be in response to the fact that many employees of

01:14:37   open AI voiced that they would not want to continue being employed by the company if

01:14:42   he was gone they installed a interim CEO Mira Murati I believe was who they put in as the

01:14:52   CEO if I'm remembering correctly there's been so many interim there's another interim CEO

01:14:57   now so it's hard to now yeah to as Emmett Shear who was the former boss of Twitch which

01:15:02   I can't even get my head around that one maybe I don't know enough about Emmett Shear then

01:15:10   when it the the talks fell apart and Shear was announced as CEO Satya Nadella came out

01:15:16   of nowhere and said we love open AI we're going to continue working with open AI and

01:15:22   oh by the way we're creating our own new division and Sam Altman's going to be CEO of it and

01:15:27   then I think earlier today I saw that I think there is a there is a letter circulating within

01:15:34   open AI that 500 current employees have said they will go to Microsoft unless Altman comes

01:15:44   back that's kind of where we are now and he's not coming back he ain't coming back now this

01:15:49   is okay so yes this is real a lot of drama a lot of tech industry drama I want to look

01:15:56   at this from a couple of different angles that maybe are not as as prominent I think

01:16:01   fundamentally what's going on here is that the how mean do I want to be I'm not going

01:16:11   to say open AI was built on a lie because I don't think it was built on a lie but I

01:16:15   think it was built on a premise that was rapidly it's a premise that Silicon Valley can't handle

01:16:22   right because it was built as a nonprofit that was going to build artificial intelligence

01:16:27   things for the benefit of humanity and over time it became clear that what was really

01:16:34   happening is that they had a for-profit entity that they were managing that was because they

01:16:40   were not getting a lot of funding for their for their nonprofit but they were getting

01:16:43   a lot of funding from like Microsoft in and they needed money you need money to build

01:16:47   AI stuff right so they they needed funding for Microsoft and other places and they built

01:16:54   this for-profit entity and that was what Sam Altman was running and he's a VC guy he's

01:16:59   a he's a Silicon Valley guy and that's how he works right and so you ended up in the

01:17:04   situation where open AI and and with their partner Microsoft was being run as a business

01:17:10   it's like a business of of like a startup except he doesn't actually own the stock because

01:17:17   it's a nonprofit like it's and it's broken that's a broken set of a set of characteristics

01:17:25   right there there are cross purposes in a lot of ways so I would argue that maybe open

01:17:29   AI was broken from the start or at least broken at the point where they realized that they

01:17:33   needed to have this other entity I would say it it broke at the point that chant GPT exploded

01:17:39   because then it just couldn't it's its fundamental structure could not support where it was going

01:17:45   and like on that like I would say what they should have done was find a new structure

01:17:50   rather than do what they have done which yes the bad which is bad because now they probably

01:17:55   torpedoed the company at this point right so two things two reasons one is it's a having

01:18:00   a nonprofit that's about humanity is a good fig leaf over your thing it's like no no no

01:18:06   we're all for the good but but the truth is it was misaligned priorities and and it was

01:18:14   it was all probably going to come apart and the number one reason is exactly what happened

01:18:18   people I find it funny people are like oh this is weird it's like it's only weird if

01:18:22   you're thinking of it as a typical Silicon Valley company where the investors are on

01:18:26   the board but it was an independent board for a nonprofit who got tired apparently of

01:18:31   Sam Altman telling them things that they didn't believe were true because and I don't know

01:18:36   those allegations we don't know have a lot of details about that but but it's not hard

01:18:40   to look at it and say what Sam Altman wanted to do with open AI was very different from

01:18:45   what the board thought they were getting into board of a nonprofit I've been on a board

01:18:49   of a nonprofit it's a very different kind of responsibility you have on a board of a

01:18:53   nonprofit versus people on a board of a big profit-seeking company yeah and so that structure

01:18:59   was broken it's not surprising in that way that he got fired because they're that board

01:19:05   is not like their job is not to prop up Sam Altman's business goals it's not it really

01:19:14   it believe it or not it's not because it's a nonprofit organization it that is not why

01:19:19   they're there and what makes me feel a little bit uneasy is the the suggestion at a few

01:19:26   points that the way that this should have worked and maybe did work for a while is let's

01:19:31   pretend that we're a nonprofit and cloak ourselves in the nonprofitness but we all know what

01:19:36   it really is and finally the board apparently some members of the board enough a majority

01:19:41   of the board was like no it's like okay so that's over so I think that's fascinating

01:19:48   because it really is like Silicon Valley mindset but inside a thing that is not built to match

01:19:52   Silicon Valley mindset and then on top so so from a nonprofit board perspective I'm

01:19:58   like okay I get it but then I think about like Microsoft and Microsoft's whole business

01:20:03   strategy is based on their partnership with open AI and and and that's a problem because

01:20:08   they're a big for-profit business entity and this is a nonprofit but the idea that Satya

01:20:14   Nadella was told minutes before the announcement went on and it was happening one minute yeah

01:20:19   great that's right in 60 seconds this this company will self-destruct first off my first

01:20:27   thought was I would be furious if I were him yeah and my second one thought was I know

01:20:31   they're talking about like Sam Altman wants to do a startup or something else and I thought

01:20:35   surely such a Nadella has either going to is it going to fund that startup or just or

01:20:42   just buy it or just be it and just set up a company inside Microsoft which is what he

01:20:46   ended up doing and so the net result is Ben Thompson wrote about this in Stretachery today

01:20:53   and he he said it perfectly and I was sort of thinking about this but he crystallized

01:20:57   it perfectly which is Microsoft just bought open AI for nothing they won it obviously

01:21:05   I believe they wanted to buy them when they invested yeah but they knew that they wouldn't

01:21:10   be able to I mean I just feel like because they were already with the Blizzard thing

01:21:16   like I think Microsoft just felt they were not allowed to buy companies so they effectively

01:21:22   bought everything except the company structure right like because they have the license to

01:21:27   everything all the code yes of open AI so they own the intellectual property of open

01:21:32   AI as much as open AI does and now they're going to have probably most of the employees

01:21:38   of open AI some but I saw someone in chat I don't have this verified but said apparently

01:21:43   like open AI is like 770 employees and the count online is now saying it's up to 700

01:21:49   said that they'll move there you go and Satya Nadella has already said we have a space for

01:21:54   everyone yep so what they're effectively doing like is Trojan horsing open AI into co-pilot

01:22:03   right which is the new brand oh what if the board wanted this all along let's spread that

01:22:08   conspiracy what if this was the plan all along I've said this for a while right Satya Nadella

01:22:13   he is a stone cold killer right yes I it's just business I find him absolutely fascinating

01:22:21   he seems like a nice guy right like he seems like a nice guy and is doing super interesting

01:22:26   things with Microsoft rebuilding this company and make and as you know been slowly and steadily

01:22:32   making them back into the superpower of old right but just in a new way and they focus

01:22:37   on new things and he is now going to position co-pilot back to on like he's going to come

01:22:47   position it on top again like which is where he wanted it but chat GPT kind of yeah had

01:22:51   it but now that's probably gonna go away wasn't always weird though that Microsoft's like

01:22:56   key thing that they're doing in AI was always like well we've got a partnership with the

01:23:02   best which is open AI yeah but it's a partnership it's like well yeah your core everything is

01:23:06   open is co-pilot which is your branding but it's like their technology isn't that a little

01:23:11   weird and the answer is not weird now right now by the way point pointed out in our discord

01:23:17   that the the random person in the chat who said it's up to 700 is chance Miller who was

01:23:22   friend of the show in the previous segment I could remember who said it I just know I

01:23:26   saw I just I enjoy life that life comes at you fast yeah in one segment your friend of

01:23:29   the show the next you're just a random person just a guy that's just how life is just a

01:23:33   guy in the chat sometimes sometimes you get exclusive huge news and sometimes you're just

01:23:40   a person in the discord you know it's a guy in the chat look you've got to be humbled

01:23:44   sometimes Jason all right you know like yeah it's true you just gotta be it's because it

01:23:48   also also kind of funny that like you know this the RCS news was huge for like a few

01:23:53   hours and this happened then then said moment happened and it was all so yeah Microsoft

01:23:58   gets gets to walk away with this stuff like lock stock and barrel which seems pretty amazing

01:24:02   they've got the license I do wonder what will happen to open AI as a nonprofit and will

01:24:06   it become some sort of other AI entity I didn't we didn't even mention the other part of the

01:24:11   AI story which is that the anthropic was created a separate company by a bunch of people who

01:24:18   were unhappy with where open AI was going and they left to form another company so I

01:24:23   think the bottom line is that this is bill Microsoft benefits from this early on sort

01:24:30   of fantasy by a bunch of galaxy brains Silicon Valley types that oh AI what it really needs

01:24:37   is a nonprofit that can guide toward positivity in humanity and we saw that immediately that

01:24:44   started falling apart because the people who are doing it are still thinking like Silicon

01:24:49   Valley VC type people and it's all you know it's all business it's it's it's strictly

01:24:53   business and the nonprofit was like no no we have a vision nonprofit vision they're

01:24:58   like yeah we can use that to our advantage you're like no you're not supposed to use

01:25:02   it to your advantage it's supposed to be what the business is like and I always I mean over

01:25:06   the last couple of years I thought to myself it is funny that that this is open AI but

01:25:12   it like makes it seem like it's just a mom-and-pop open source whatever but it's being run like

01:25:19   a serious business Silicon Valley business and yeah it was weird and it was a misfit

01:25:27   and it feels like this is kind of something that was inevitable in fact there are those

01:25:31   rumors about how Sam Altman was trying to build a startup to do a bunch of stuff like

01:25:36   building hardware for AI processing and I wonder if part of the friction with the board

01:25:41   was them thinking that he was basically going to go do a startup and take all his all his

01:25:48   people with him and leave nothing left but this is way better right because Microsoft

01:25:52   has a license right no matter what the situation is that the board thought was going on or

01:25:58   what they wanted to get what they are ending up with is what they wanted right like Sam

01:26:02   Altman's gone they're gonna go back to being a company about any products because there's

01:26:08   not gonna be any product people left yeah yeah and they'll be the you know they'll they'll

01:26:13   they'll make an announcement that they are shifting strategies to being the keeper of

01:26:16   the license for the open AI core technology and which will last which will be important

01:26:23   for as long as it's important because like you know I was talking to a few friends about

01:26:26   this earlier today as everyone's been talking about it yeah the there is absolutely no way

01:26:33   that Microsoft wasn't also building its own LLM and yeah oh and they can base it on open

01:26:39   AI because it doesn't matter because they have they have a I think a an eternal license

01:26:43   to all the open AI work so they're only gonna prop up open AI for as long as they need to

01:26:49   until the co-pilot LLM is you know is everything they need but but the thing is now they don't

01:26:54   even necessarily need to do that because now they've got open AI's whole presumably entire

01:27:00   staff and because you you always would say oh but the intellectual property but it's

01:27:04   like but they have the license to the intellectual property it is a robbery it is a straight

01:27:09   up robbery it is wow quite a thing so yeah so they've got their own tech and they've

01:27:16   got the open AI tech and it's just gonna be yeah to be Satya Nadella right now like to

01:27:21   have because how so how exciting would it be for this to happen if you're here and just

01:27:25   be like oh it's like Christmas I could just I'll just take it I'll have it fantastic I

01:27:32   wanted to buy it but I couldn't now I don't need to well you know the power move is gonna

01:27:36   be this week Satya Nadella is gonna gonna contact he's gonna have his people contact

01:27:40   the open AI board and say so we're looking to sublet some office space do you have any

01:27:50   available? We just take everything take the plants the chairs got it all wouldn't that

01:27:56   be amazing if they're like yeah why don't you just let us assume your your office space

01:28:02   and your chairs and your plants and all and all of that and we'll just because we have

01:28:07   all these new employees who are currently sitting in your space and and we don't want

01:28:13   them to move it's so interesting how Microsoft is now building all of these like sub companies

01:28:21   with its own CEOs right because like Microsoft gaming has its own CEO like they're doing

01:28:28   this now a lot too they're kind of doing this thing that like like what Google did with

01:28:33   alphabet right but without actually doing the name change. And so counter to the Balmer

01:28:38   era where everybody was subservient to Windows it's now Satya Nadella is just like nope we

01:28:43   got a business here we got a business here it's like a holding company for all sorts

01:28:46   of businesses. Windows is an app now right you saw this that Windows is an app. It's

01:28:51   just an app. It's just an app. Incredible. Nobody likes. Incredible just incredible.

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01:30:26   Our thanks to Vitaly for their support of this show and Relay FM. We'll finish out today's

01:30:32   episode with some ask upgrade questions. First one comes from Dan who says there's been a

01:30:42   lot of talk about a 27 inch iMac but what I'd love to see is the opposite, a 24 inch

01:30:50   standalone display. Do you think there are any odds Apple would come out with this product?

01:30:55   No. Neither do I. I appreciate your optimism there Dan. I don't dislike the idea. They

01:31:04   already built the iMac but I think the thing is the iMac is that it doesn't stand alone

01:31:10   but that's it. That's what it is. It's a pretty good price and it has a computer in it and

01:31:16   I think they're happy with that and I don't think they are interested in making a thinner,

01:31:23   cheaper version. I don't think that's where their focus is. I think that making a better

01:31:28   studio display will be their ultimate goal, not making a display that undercuts the studio

01:31:33   display. Diggery asks how long will it be until we see an Apple Event video in spatial

01:31:40   video? I am really torn about this because on one hand I can see them wanting to boast

01:31:47   about it but on the other hand it's a whole lot more production work to do a spatial.

01:31:56   So my guess is it'll be a long time but that there will be some special spatial video content

01:32:03   made for Apple product announcements going forward. There'll be a place you can go in

01:32:08   the Vision Pro to get a spatial look at the new products but I don't think it's necessarily

01:32:14   the Event video if that makes sense. I can't make a decision on this one. Like, I can imagine

01:32:22   they're doing it, I can imagine they're not doing it. But they're gonna wanna have stuff

01:32:28   to show off the technology and one of the things that they make are these videos but

01:32:33   they also make a lot of content. It's true, I guess that's the question, do you go to

01:32:39   the trouble of either shooting in 3D or doing a 3D process of your Event video? Movies do

01:32:46   it, they could totally do it and make it available. I wonder, my thought there, and you're right,

01:32:52   I don't really know, this is a tough one, my thought is that they're probably having

01:32:57   that conversation inside and saying "what's better?" Spending the money on a 3D conversion

01:33:03   of our Event video so that if you look at it in spatial video or on the Vision Pro you'll

01:33:08   see it in 3D or make some custom content for Vision Pro that is gonna blow them away. Or

01:33:20   maybe we shoot this product showcase or we have an immersive thing where you're in the

01:33:25   Steve Jobs Theater lobby and can get an angle on all the new Apple products or something

01:33:30   like that. So that's the question, do you just spiff up this video or do you do something

01:33:37   special? Because I'll tell you, I think doing something special is gonna show off the hardware

01:33:43   more than just spiffing up the regular video.

01:33:47   Francois asks "With Apple's eye on services growth and the recent rumors around AI features

01:33:52   in future iOS updates, do you think that an advanced Siri could be a service they launch

01:33:57   to give additional features on top of Siri? It could be standalone but also rolled into

01:34:02   Apple One to make the bundle even more enticing."

01:34:04   Maybe?

01:34:08   It's an interesting idea that I have not thought of. Off the top of my head I don't like it

01:34:11   because I feel like you need to make Siri better fundamentally. But I do wonder if there

01:34:18   are, once you do that, is there a service or is it part of other services that allow

01:34:27   you to extend the intelligence of Siri in some way? But you gotta get, job one is to

01:34:32   just fix it. And then Siri Plus or whatever they want to call it. I don't know if they

01:34:39   do Siri Plus, I think it might be more like they add other services or other AI features

01:34:46   that are tied into Siri to their existing services. But I don't know.

01:34:50   The overall base is increased but it can do more things now but you need to be an Apple

01:34:56   One subscriber to get those features.

01:34:59   But fundamentally, Apple doing machine learning voice assistant on the iPhone well is job

01:35:07   one because it reflects on the iPhone. And so it's gotta be good. And if you're perceived

01:35:12   as withholding some of that goodness behind a paywall, I think that's dangerous for Apple.

01:35:18   I think they're playing with fire there. So my guess is that that won't be something that

01:35:21   they do initially. But it wouldn't shock me if there was a advanced, you know, if you're

01:35:25   a news plus subscriber, the voice assistant is gonna do a better job and offer you other

01:35:31   stuff because it's in this service that you pay for.

01:35:36   I could also imagine there being some features that are behind the subscription because they

01:35:40   are just expensive to compute.

01:35:43   Could be.

01:35:46   I could also see maybe if they did it as like a beta at first and it was only available

01:35:53   to subscribers. That also sucks too.

01:35:57   Steve wrote in the essay, "I really enjoyed Mike's breakdown of the meaning of pro, which

01:36:01   I have personally dubbed the Mike Hurley Pro mentality scale." Go back to Steve. Says,

01:36:07   "existing on a sliding scale from mentality to branding." I'm curious though, you left

01:36:11   the Vision Pro out of the lineup. So for the both of you, where do you think the Vision

01:36:16   Pro lands on this scale from a pro, like, you know, pro being just a thing people want

01:36:23   to actually a thing that people use? How do you think it will land?

01:36:26   From AirPods Pro to Mac Pro.

01:36:28   Yep. And I have been thinking about this question all day and I am really struggling.

01:36:35   I got a solution for you. We don't know because we don't know how the Vision Pro will be used.

01:36:41   That's my answer right now is we don't know. It's possible that the Vision Pro will find

01:36:46   its niche in high-end, you know, it's computer people who can put up big screens and work

01:36:52   at it all day and they're doing a bunch of high-end stuff and there's 3D models and they're

01:36:57   doing all sorts of stuff with that and it's about visualization and it's like very pro

01:37:02   or it's our friend programmers who are like able to do all sorts of things in that development

01:37:06   environment. It's also possible that it turns out like the most amazing things about this

01:37:11   product are games and 3D movies and immersive experiences and that the using it as a computer

01:37:22   is less impressive than those. At which point if it falls that way, pro will be about the

01:37:31   price and the fact that you can afford it and that it's cutting edge. But I think we

01:37:36   won't know and I think Apple doesn't even know. Right now Apple is sure that it means

01:37:41   the price and that you can afford it because it's going to be very expensive. But as how

01:37:46   people end up in the real world using it, it may be a while before we find that out.

01:37:52   Okay. Does that help? No. The price. That's my non-answer answer? The price is an interesting

01:38:01   factor to this. It's so expensive that it should only be bought by people that are really

01:38:08   going to want to put it through its paces. I would also say, again without it being available,

01:38:15   without even knowing what kinds of software are available, the fact that, let's compare

01:38:20   the Vision Pro and the Quest. The Quest is marketed mostly for games, right? Like games

01:38:28   and fun things. Apple is saying we have built a spatial computer, which is very different

01:38:35   to saying this thing is for games. So if they are able to land the "this is a computer",

01:38:43   I think that shifts the equation. Especially because I'm still unconvinced about what games

01:38:48   are going to look like on the thing. Sure. Because we really don't know what that's going

01:38:51   to be like yet. You're right, it's being positioned as over on the actual Pro scale, right? The

01:39:02   mentality scale more than the branding scale. Right now, that's where Apple is trying very

01:39:06   hard to position it. That's true. But we just, we won't truly know until the thing is shipped

01:39:13   and we see what it can do. And like, how capable is it? And all these kinds of things. And

01:39:19   I continue to be very excited about that. Because it's still not impossible that it's

01:39:23   going to be, "Oh well, if you're an NBA fan and you've got the means, you should just

01:39:28   buy one of these Apple things because they have this NBA content and you're sitting right

01:39:32   there and it's amazing and you just have to do it." And that would be on the other end,

01:39:36   which is what's Pro about it is it's nice and expensive and really good. And not like

01:39:42   I need it for my work, but more like if you can afford it, it's a great experience. That's

01:39:46   a place it could end up. But I agree, that's not where Apple's trying to take it right

01:39:52   now.

01:39:53   No. If you would like to send us in a question for a future episode of the show, just go

01:39:59   to upgradefeedback.com and you could send in and ask upgrade question. You can send

01:40:05   in a snow talk question. You can also send us in feedback and follow up, even if it is

01:40:09   just to disagree.

01:40:10   Be mad at me. Go ahead.

01:40:11   With what Pro means and what it doesn't. We're always happy to take that feedback.

01:40:16   And all of it gets read. So thank you to those of you that just sent it in.

01:40:20   Well said.

01:40:21   Well, it does. I read it.

01:40:23   I know.

01:40:24   I don't read it out. That would be the entire show. I would just sit here reading follow

01:40:29   up to you all day. I don't want to do that.

01:40:31   I don't want that. No.

01:40:32   You can check out Jason's work over at sixcolors.com and you can hear his shows here on Relay

01:40:37   FM and at the incomparable.com. You can listen to my podcast here on Relay FM and check out

01:40:42   my work at cortexbrand.com. You can find us online. We're on Mastodon. Jason is at Jason

01:40:48   now on zeppelin.flights. I am at iMike, I M Y K E on mike.social. You can find the show's

01:40:54   upgrade at relayfm.social. You can find video clips of the show on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube.

01:41:01   We are at upgrade relay. There. You can also find a full video episodes when the recording

01:41:07   successfully records.

01:41:09   We are also on threads. I am at iMike. Jason is at Jason now. Thank you to our members

01:41:14   who support us with Upgrade Plus. Don't forget you can get 20% off an Upgrade Plus subscription

01:41:22   from now until December 15th. Go to giverelay.com to learn more. Thank you to those of you that

01:41:28   do. This can be a gift for you, for your loved ones. Even if you're already a subscriber

01:41:33   to another show on Relay FM, you can take advantage of this deal.

01:41:37   Thank you to our sponsors of this week's episode, Vitaly, TextExpander, Electric, and Fitbod.

01:41:42   But thank you for listening. I won't be here next week. I'm going to be on vacation. We

01:41:47   have a wonderful guest taking my seat. Jason will be your host for the week.

01:41:52   Yes. James Thompson will be joining us next week.

01:41:55   Very nice. Very good. Looking forward to it. So listen, I'll be listening while I'm on

01:41:59   vacation as I always do. Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:42:05   Goodbye, Mike. Have a good vacation.

01:42:07   Thank you.

01:42:07   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:42:10   [MUSIC ENDS]

01:42:12   (upbeat music)