489: The Future Is on CompuServe


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade.

00:00:11   It is December 4th, 2023.

00:00:14   This is episode 489.

00:00:16   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,

00:00:19   Memberfall, Backblaze and Vitaly.

00:00:22   My name is Mike Hurley.

00:00:23   I have returned and with me as always and with you as always, Jason Snell.

00:00:28   Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:29   Hi, Mike Hurley.

00:00:30   You have returned.

00:00:31   It's good to have you back.

00:00:32   I missed you last.

00:00:33   I had a great time talking to James Thompson, but I missed you.

00:00:35   You were, you were gone, gone, gone, gone.

00:00:38   Gone, gone, gone.

00:00:39   I have some follow up about that later on.

00:00:41   You did a good job of not being around too.

00:00:43   I didn't hear much from you while you were gone either.

00:00:46   No, I was trying my very best to be away from the internet as much as possible,

00:00:51   uh, during my vacation.

00:00:52   And I feel very refreshed from my vacation, even though I only arrived home yesterday afternoon.

00:00:57   So, oh, wow.

00:00:59   I've got a good night's sleep though.

00:01:00   So, but, uh, I'm starting to get into that phase right now.

00:01:04   Like I can feel it.

00:01:04   I can feel I'm getting a little bit like airheaded, you know, like my body's not really sure where it is right now.

00:01:11   So we'll see where we go over the next hour or so.

00:01:13   I have a snow talk question for you though, Jason, as they always do.

00:01:17   Now that I'm back, we can return to snow talk.

00:01:19   And his question comes from Michael who wants to know, do you keep expired passes in your wallet app?

00:01:24   And is there anything specific in there that jumps out to you?

00:01:28   I do keep some expired passes in the wallet app, not too many, but some.

00:01:33   And the one that I treasure the most is I have my ticket from game five of the 2014 world series.

00:01:43   Very cool.

00:01:44   Which was a, you know, people have souvenir tickets and things like that.

00:01:48   And I don't, I, my ticket was an electronic ticket, so I don't have a souvenir of going to that world series game.

00:01:54   And so my souvenir is my wallet pass.

00:01:56   So it's still in there.

00:01:58   I have taken it at some point.

00:01:58   I took a screenshot of it because I kept being concerned that Apple will destroy it at some point, but instead Apple created a whole sort of like expired archive that you can.

00:02:07   They don't all go in there though.

00:02:09   I feel like, which is a weird thing.

00:02:11   Yeah.

00:02:11   I have in my expired passes.

00:02:13   I have the giant's game that we went to.

00:02:16   But my most treasured pass is won't go into expired.

00:02:21   It just sits there forever.

00:02:22   And it is my past to WWDC 2023.

00:02:25   Ah, very good.

00:02:26   Very nice.

00:02:26   So that just sits there.

00:02:27   That's my, that's my little treasure.

00:02:29   It's good.

00:02:30   I like that they let you do that and not, don't just coldly, uh, destroy all older passes after a while.

00:02:36   I wish that they would let you archive them to the expired though.

00:02:40   Right?

00:02:40   Like if something doesn't have an expiration date, that you could move it into there.

00:02:47   But right now you can't do that.

00:02:49   If something doesn't expire, it just sits there forever.

00:02:51   Uh, but to be honest, I like seeing that WWDC won't ever open.

00:02:55   What will I ask?

00:02:56   You remember the shredder?

00:02:57   Yes, it was amazing.

00:02:59   The shredding animation.

00:03:00   That's a little bit of whimsy that, that, that was lost.

00:03:03   It was, it was like the whole thing shakes and the thing gets put through the shredder.

00:03:07   It goes into the little pieces.

00:03:08   It was fantastic.

00:03:10   That was fantastic UI design.

00:03:11   If you would like to send in a question of your own to help us start and open a future episode of Upgrade, just go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send in a Snill Talk question.

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00:03:51   So if you want to hear our longer ad free episodes of the show each and every week with tons of bonus content, you can go to getupgradeplus.com.

00:04:00   Use the code holidays2024 at checkout and you can get 20% off an annual plan, but this could also be if you want to gift it to somebody in your life, you can do that.

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00:04:21   But the main thing that you should be thinking about as a listener of this show is longer ad free versions each and every week.

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00:04:29   And thank you to everybody that has signed up as well.

00:04:32   We appreciate it.

00:04:32   Let's do some follow up.

00:04:35   I have a couple of follow up items about last week's episode.

00:04:38   Okay.

00:04:40   So this is actually kind of fun for me because like I said, I posted about this on Mastodon.

00:04:45   When I'm on vacation, I like that I get to be a listener of the shows that I'm usually on.

00:04:52   I think that's really good because I really like the shows that I'm on, right?

00:04:56   That's like why I like to make them is I think they're good podcasts.

00:04:59   And so I like it when I get to listen to those shows and I don't know what's going to happen to them.

00:05:05   So I had a great time listening to you and James talk last week.

00:05:08   So you were talking about spatial video quite a bit.

00:05:10   Yep.

00:05:11   I took a bunch of spatial video clips on my vacation, which is not really a thing that I would do.

00:05:18   And it wasn't like, I liked what you said about like, if it's an important moment, maybe you don't want to do that because the video quality isn't as good.

00:05:25   Like it's really noticeable now when you see an SDR video on an iPhone, like it looks wrong.

00:05:32   Ah yes.

00:05:32   Yeah.

00:05:33   But I thought I would tell, what I was doing is in moments that I was enjoying myself, you know, was at Disneyland.

00:05:39   I took a bunch of video clips at Disneyland because I thought that they might be pretty interesting for a lot of things going on, right?

00:05:47   Which I think would probably be pretty interesting.

00:05:49   But also like I was looking for what could be good memories and like, and these would be like quite evocative of good memories.

00:05:59   So I'm still really not sure what I think about the spatial video stuff.

00:06:04   Like there is something in me that's like, I think that these clips will just make me feel sad more than anything.

00:06:12   But I'm not sure.

00:06:13   Sort of melancholy about the past being the past.

00:06:17   So it's a good question.

00:06:19   I Apple keeps talking about how it evokes emotion and it feels like a memory and those can be good and those can be bad.

00:06:26   And I, I, I wonder about that too.

00:06:27   I keep thinking, I think in the end it will be great to capture things this way.

00:06:31   But, um, like I said, I think to James last week, ultimately what you really, the goal is that it should be full quality, right?

00:06:39   It should be 4k HDR.

00:06:42   Uh, maybe even 60 frames a second.

00:06:45   Right.

00:06:45   And it's just, they can't do it right now.

00:06:47   So this is better than nothing.

00:06:48   Um, but it is, you know, I wouldn't start shooting everything in there, but I like the idea.

00:06:54   And this is what I've been trying to do too, is I like the idea of capturing a few things that feel like one it's, it's a memory that I might want to keep.

00:07:02   And two has a reason why depth is going to be.

00:07:07   Uh, more evocative, right?

00:07:10   Like the idea that you've got stuff in the foreground and stuff in the background and kind of the composition of the shot is going to make it more evocative.

00:07:16   Because as you know, the analysis of the video shows, if, if everything's in the distance or, you know, it, you lose the 3d effect and then all you're getting is a low quality video.

00:07:27   Because like, what I was thinking about for this trip specifically was not necessarily moments, but environments.

00:07:37   So like one of my favorite places at Disneyland is the, uh, like the, with my, one of my favorite places to eat is like the Hank Pym restaurant lab.

00:07:47   Oh, I love that place.

00:07:48   Right.

00:07:49   Cause they do such great food, but also you're in the Avengers world and the Avengers themed music is playing.

00:07:54   And I love being in that environment because I love Marvel movies so much.

00:07:58   And so there's one moment I just took a video clip of me with one of the huge, like just me sitting on a table.

00:08:03   Um, and you know, had gone to get food.

00:08:05   And so it was just me and I had the big pretzel, which I love.

00:08:08   And the Avengers theme was playing and Spiderman was walking by and it was like, I feel like if I want to live that moment again, could be very interesting because I enjoy being in that environment.

00:08:21   But I do wonder like if it provides something which feels like the environment, is it not just going to make me sad that I'm not actually there?

00:08:28   Like, I, this is one, I don't know what it's going to feel like, but I tried to take like.

00:08:33   Video clips of things that made me feel good in the moment and I'm going to see how they make me feel sometime next year when I look at them on a headset.

00:08:41   All right.

00:08:42   I also just wanted to say that I love James's optimism about a 40th anniversary Mac.

00:08:46   Right.

00:08:47   The whole time I was sitting again, James, I love you, but that ain't going to happen.

00:08:51   No, the only, my best idea, I don't know if I mentioned this last week or not, but my best idea was what if for the 40th anniversary of the Mac, they do the new iPad pro that has a, that has the Mac OS mode.

00:09:02   Which would be great, but that's also like the worst way to celebrate the Mac.

00:09:06   Happy birthday Mac, you're inside a different product now.

00:09:08   When, for what reason did they make that special Mac font?

00:09:13   Do you remember that?

00:09:14   Like they had like a website and it had, they created like a font that people could download that had all of the Macs in it that you could like use it as like a text font.

00:09:25   Do you remember that?

00:09:26   No, I don't.

00:09:27   It was like a special, it was for Apple's 40th.

00:09:29   Right.

00:09:30   Which is what I said to James is the 20th anniversary Mac was for Apple's 20th, not the Mac's 20th.

00:09:35   This is going to be a 40th anniversary of the Mac.

00:09:37   I've spent a year wondering what I would do for the 40th anniversary of the Mac.

00:09:42   And my answer is nothing.

00:09:43   I have nothing.

00:09:44   I got nothing.

00:09:46   I mean, you kind of did the biggest thing you could do, right?

00:09:49   20 Macs for 2020.

00:09:50   And I can't do 40 Macs for 40th anniversary.

00:09:53   That's not going to happen.

00:09:54   So maybe I'll, maybe there'll be here, here, this is what I'll say.

00:09:57   Maybe we'll do a special episode of upgrade where like we get Steven Hackett on and we pick, we draft 40 Macs for 40th anniversary.

00:10:05   Oh, that's a good idea, right?

00:10:06   That went down.

00:10:06   Uh, anyway, but that's about it.

00:10:08   I don't, I don't know what else to do for that.

00:10:10   And also when we were on my bachelor week, week in Austin, something happened then.

00:10:17   What was that?

00:10:17   It was like an, it was a, an anniversary of something.

00:10:20   Oh, I don't remember that at all.

00:10:22   There was some kind of Mac anniversary then.

00:10:24   So that would have been like May 27, wait, what year did I get married in?

00:10:30   Uh, 20, uh oh.

00:10:32   It's happening to me right now.

00:10:33   You're hearing it live on the show.

00:10:34   2018, right?

00:10:35   I got married in 2018.

00:10:36   Okay.

00:10:37   Uh, there was something going on then.

00:10:40   Cause I remember we recorded a show and I was very hesitant to record.

00:10:44   I didn't want to record anything, but there was, cause I remember also we were sitting in a hotel room and you and Steven were furiously working on something because there was some kind of a anniversary.

00:10:54   Going on then.

00:10:55   Uh, but yeah, this is another thing I was remembering.

00:10:58   Oh, it's Mac OS X became as old as classic Mac OS when it was, uh, replaced that happened to that month.

00:11:08   I don't know.

00:11:08   I don't know.

00:11:10   There was something going on that week and everyone was working and I didn't want to work, but all of this is to say, I don't think Apple's going to do anything product related for the 40th anniversary Mac.

00:11:21   No, it doesn't.

00:11:23   It doesn't sound like them at all.

00:11:26   No, let's move on to different follow up.

00:11:30   Apple has announced a partnership of us company Amcor to package its Apple Silicon chips that will be produced in TSMC's Arizona plant.

00:11:39   So Amcor is an American company.

00:11:42   They're based in Arizona and they're opening a new facility to package the chips that were coming from TSMC.

00:11:47   My understanding is that the original plan was going to be that TSMC, any chips that were fabbed at the TSMC fab were going to be sent to Taiwan for packaging.

00:11:57   So this is a definite improvement.

00:11:59   I remember Ben Thompson talking about this, that like, this is one of the ridiculous things about the TSMC fab is they didn't have the facilities.

00:12:06   TSMC did not have the facilities for packaging a chip.

00:12:09   I did some reading today to understand what packaging a chip actually meant because until now I genuinely thought it just meant putting it inside of a plastic box.

00:12:17   But it actually is.

00:12:18   You get the silicon from the fab, right?

00:12:20   The actual silicon on the chip itself.

00:12:22   You can't put that silicon directly into a computer.

00:12:24   It needs to be protected.

00:12:26   And so the packaging facilities will put it inside of something and maybe along with some other chips that aren't necessarily on that chip itself to be installed into a device.

00:12:37   Like say it's in glass or in plastic or something.

00:12:40   But that needs to be done.

00:12:41   And TSMC's Arizona plant is just a fab.

00:12:45   It's not a packaging facility, but Amcor are building a packaging facility.

00:12:49   And so Apple are going to be, from the chips that are made in Arizona, they will now stay in Arizona, which is definitely beneficial to shipping them all the way across the globe to be repackaged up again.

00:13:03   So the packaging material, it looks like plastic, metal or ceramic.

00:13:07   And the idea there is that they've got all these little parts and sometimes they got chiplets and all of that.

00:13:11   And they're all, you could build it so that each of them is installed on like a circuit board, but that's not what you want.

00:13:19   What you want is for the whole package, since it is a system, you know, on a chip basically, to be one thing.

00:13:26   Because then you've got units of the one thing that can be plugged in.

00:13:30   And that's less complicated for assembly.

00:13:35   So you put them all, they're all meant to be together.

00:13:38   And so you package them together in one unit and then the units get installed in the devices instead of all the little bits.

00:13:43   Yeah, I think that's the idea.

00:13:45   Yep.

00:13:45   And this is a quote from Apple.

00:13:47   "Apple and Amcor have worked together for more than a decade packaging chips used extensively in Apple products.

00:13:54   With a shared desire to manufacture in the US, Apple and Amcor developed plans to build the largest outsourced advanced packaging facility in America.

00:14:02   Amcor will invest approximately $2 billion into the project.

00:14:06   And upon completion, it will employ more than 2,000 people."

00:14:09   And I think I read that Amcor got some money from the CHIPS Act to help them do this.

00:14:15   I'm sure they did.

00:14:16   Yeah.

00:14:16   This is really interesting though.

00:14:18   And like genuinely, like I see something like this and I was like, yes, this is, in my opinion, this is exactly the kind of thing that government should be doing.

00:14:25   I think, right?

00:14:27   You want to increase the capabilities, the technological capabilities of the country.

00:14:34   You need to incentivize that.

00:14:35   And they are now doing that in such a way that they are incentivizing all of these companies to make stuff in America, which is like not really a thing that happens anymore for technology.

00:14:45   So.

00:14:46   Right.

00:14:46   There's a debate to be had about whether it puts down roots or whether it's just artificial.

00:14:53   But if the goal is, and I think you could say either the goal is to make things in America because Apple's an American company and they feel pressure from politicians to show that they're putting jobs in America.

00:15:06   Which is why Apple talks about the number of app jobs and things like that.

00:15:10   But it's also why Apple does demonstrations about, we're going to build this plant here and we're going to do this and CHIPS has become a big thing.

00:15:17   So the CHIPS Act comes out and says, we want Silicon chip things to happen in America.

00:15:22   And Amcor is a, is an Arizona based company, I believe.

00:15:26   So the idea here that Apple, you know, is working with TSMC to build that plant and I know people are like, well, but it's not for the cutting edge chips.

00:15:33   And it's like, that's all true.

00:15:34   But you could see either way, either it's an investment that the government and these companies are making in America that will put money in the economy or, and they're hoping that it will have some follow on benefits where over time there's more chip manufacturing.

00:15:52   It doesn't always go that way, but I think that that's part of the goal here is, well, how, if the whole supply chain is somewhere else, how do you ever get a, you know, try to react to that?

00:16:01   And one way is we put some money in and see what happens.

00:16:04   You can't start at a hundred percent.

00:16:05   You can't just be like, oh, I'm just going to make all the Apple Silicon chips there.

00:16:07   Yeah.

00:16:08   You just, you just can't do it.

00:16:08   You have to start somewhere.

00:16:10   This is a start.

00:16:11   And from my opinion, this kind of thing makes more sense than just putting like, uh, restrictions on the chips to and from China.

00:16:20   Like from my, in my opinion, like actually having an in, in like encouraging manufacture.

00:16:26   That is a good thing to do in your country if you can do it.

00:16:30   And so I think that this is an interesting idea.

00:16:33   I also like the idea that this is a, a thing that instead of doing that, well, we make the chips here, but then we send them to Taiwan and then we bring them back.

00:16:40   That it's one of these things is like, no, no, no.

00:16:42   Now we can package chips in America.

00:16:44   And it makes me wonder, cause I was thinking about, they have talked about other portions of their global supply chain and assembly and like the glass from Corning and all of that, that if you have a good.

00:16:57   It's a packager partner in America, you have the option of not only packaging your chips in America, but even like taking chips made elsewhere and bringing them to America and having them packaged here and being able to say, look what we did.

00:17:09   This chip was put together in America, even though it's not all from made in America parts.

00:17:14   So it is, you know, it, is it, is it political?

00:17:19   Yeah.

00:17:20   In a way it is, but Apple is so huge now that Apple is a Apple impacts the economies of most countries, many countries in the world.

00:17:29   And this is an example of in their, in their home territory, how they're trying to, to thread the needle.

00:17:35   And I guess we'll see what happens, right?

00:17:37   I mean, there's no way to tell whether this will be successful or not.

00:17:39   Uh, even the people who are well versed in, in the chip industry, uh, you know, I think don't know for sure, although they probably have opinions, but it's an interesting wrinkle that Apple now has a packaging partner.

00:17:50   To go with their, uh, fab partner in Arizona.

00:17:53   Even from a political perspective, this feels better to me than what I consider to be the ridiculous show of the Mac Pro being made in America.

00:18:00   Right.

00:18:01   Yeah.

00:18:02   Which was, which was pretty artificial and it was only a small volume and the rest of them were still being made elsewhere, but it allowed for a photo op with the president.

00:18:08   Donald Trump.

00:18:08   Right.

00:18:09   This is like, that was stupid.

00:18:10   Like this feels like an actual inve, like a continued investment.

00:18:13   It feels like it.

00:18:14   In other companies, which can employ more people.

00:18:18   And then those like this kind of investment could allow for M-core to increase their growth, right?

00:18:24   In America and employ even more people rather than just like, we're going to create this one factory for show and build some Mac Pros in it.

00:18:29   I think this is good.

00:18:30   And again, I'm sure somebody out there will say, Oh, well, yeah, but the chips, the stuff that they're getting out of here is not going to be the stuff that's cutting edge.

00:18:36   It's going to be in sort of secondary products.

00:18:38   It's going to be in home pods and Apple TVs and things like that.

00:18:40   It's like, that's the case.

00:18:41   So be it right.

00:18:42   Like, so be it that it's, it's, it's a start.

00:18:45   It'll be interesting to see what happens.

00:18:46   Yeah.

00:18:48   Okay.

00:18:48   We'll see.

00:18:49   I also saw some, uh, odd, I think odd, but then maybe not surprising news.

00:18:56   Uh, before we started recording today, Killers of the Flower Moon will be available to rent or buy this week, tomorrow actually, as we're recording, but there's still no word.

00:19:06   And when it comes to TV plus, and this includes other platforms, not just on iTunes, like you can buy it on Prime Video.

00:19:14   Uh,

00:19:15   so I guess they got to make some of the money back before they want to put on TV plus, I assume.

00:19:20   Right.

00:19:21   And they, they have a distributor.

00:19:24   It feels like this is, yeah.

00:19:27   So I, it feels to me like what, what they're doing here is they, they have either with Paramount or with Martin Scorsese or whatever, they have agreed that they're doing a standard film rollout.

00:19:37   So Apple's bankrolling it and it will ultimately live on Apple TV plus for free for everybody.

00:19:44   Who's a subscriber, but they're going to do the full on movie theaters, digital rollout, probably expedited, but digital rollout, this first round of video on demand where you pay to rent or buy.

00:19:57   And then it will go to TV plus and, and that, that will still happen, presumably, you know, early next year, I would guess, but there, um, it is in contrast to Napoleon, right?

00:20:08   Which is still in theaters.

00:20:09   And isn't that already on TV plus.

00:20:13   I think no Napoleon is no, it's not, it's not yet Napoleon's not yet.

00:20:18   It's just, I think Napoleon's probably going to be a similar thing.

00:20:22   Yeah, it might be, it might be, this might be what they're going to do when they put things in theaters.

00:20:28   Ah, yeah.

00:20:29   Napoleon, what they've done is they put it at the top of the TV app and said, add it to your list and it will come in a bit.

00:20:35   So, so yeah, they're, they're doing a, they're doing a film rollout.

00:20:38   And then at the backend, they're, they're, they're doing what Netflix does not do because Netflix does the.

00:20:45   Like obligatory release because some artists wants it or for awards reasons and Apple with these movies is doing a real theatrical release, including all the steps, even the digital step, uh, of sale and rental.

00:21:01   And then it will show up on TV plus at some point.

00:21:04   I do feel like, cause they did what they did with the, what you mentioned, they did with Napoleon, they also do with Killers of the Flower Moon.

00:21:10   I think you can't have everything.

00:21:11   Like don't tell me about the movie in the TV app if it's like months until it's on TV plus.

00:21:17   My guess is that it's not.

00:21:18   My guess is that this timeline is really shortened and that by.

00:21:22   They did a 45 day window for the movie to now this.

00:21:25   Yeah.

00:21:26   Which is pretty, pretty standard.

00:21:27   But yeah, I guess how long is this spot?

00:21:29   We don't know.

00:21:30   Is it going to be another 30 days or is it going to be.

00:21:32   Yeah, that's that's my guess is that this would be on TV plus in January, but I don't know.

00:21:37   It's interesting though, right?

00:21:39   Cause they could choose to say no, no, no, once it's out of theaters, it's just on TV plus and that's a thing that they, they haven't done.

00:21:45   I wonder if there's some psychology here that I wonder about sometimes cause Disney, I feel like Disney's really gotten beaten down with this now that during the pandemic, they put like all the Pixar movies direct on Disney plus.

00:21:59   And they put a black widow on Disney plus.

00:22:02   And I think one of the reasons that the Pixar movies and other Disney animation and that Marvel movies do not do as well in theaters as they did before the pandemic is that Disney has trained a lot of people to just wait for it to show up on Disney plus that's why we're paying for Disney plus apparently is you wait a little bit and your Marvel movies and your Pixar movies will just show up there.

00:22:24   And it removes some of the impetus to get out and get to the theater.

00:22:28   And I wonder if this is one of the ways you try to counter that is to say, we're going to treat Napoleon and killers of the flower moon as movies.

00:22:38   We funded them and we know where they're going to go eventually, which is TV plus, but what we're not going to do is say, Oh, if you see Apple's logo on an ad for a movie, don't go see it because it'll just show up on your Apple TV later.

00:22:53   They, I think they don't want that necessarily.

00:22:56   So it's a cut. I mean, and also yes, and your relationship with the directors and your distributors theatrically and all of those things are, are in the mix too.

00:23:03   Regardless, it's, it's a much more traditional film release then.

00:23:07   Cause Disney changed too, right?

00:23:08   Where now they do this too.

00:23:10   So movie comes out, goes to rent and buy, and then it comes to Disney plus.

00:23:15   It's just that a lot of people have been trained to not go see those movies.

00:23:19   I did that with what quantum mania.

00:23:22   I think I just, I never got around to seeing it and I did not feel the desperate need to catch a Marvel movie because I knew it would show up in my Disney plus app.

00:23:31   And I've seen the others, but that one, I just let it go by.

00:23:34   And that's just the one to let go by, to be honest, probably so right.

00:23:39   But still, but still, yeah.

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00:25:47   I have a couple of Rumour Roundup items for you, Jason, that are kind of follow-up-y.

00:25:55   The things we've spoken about in the past.

00:25:57   So really the first one is just a thing that I wanted to just mention just to kind of follow the thread line through a little bit.

00:26:03   So there were a bunch of reports last week that Apple is winding down its modem development project due to the poor results that they've seen so far.

00:26:11   So these were some reports that were coming through from the supply chain and I saw them in a bunch of places.

00:26:17   Well, in Power On this week, Mark Gurman's email newsletter, he said the following.

00:26:23   "I have zero reason to believe Apple has abandoned this effort.

00:26:26   The team is still functioning.

00:26:27   If the work was shuttered, that would mean Apple would waste billions of dollars and would probably need to lay off hundreds of people."

00:26:33   Yeah, I feel like they would have, we would know.

00:26:36   Right.

00:26:37   Yeah.

00:26:37   Right.

00:26:37   We would have heard if it was a bigger, because this would be catastrophic, right?

00:26:40   Yes.

00:26:40   Of them throwing away and they'd probably shut down their operations in San Diego.

00:26:46   And I mean, maybe there's somebody out there who's got some intelligence that this is happening.

00:26:50   But my guess, based on what Mark says here too, and based on where those rumors were coming from, is that this is more Apple retrenching.

00:26:57   And saying that project we were, we said we were going to do next year, we're not going to do now because of the delays that we had already heard about.

00:27:03   That makes a lot of sense.

00:27:05   Like it's more likely that if it's like a supply chain thing of like, oh, we're hauling production on this, but it doesn't mean it's done.

00:27:10   Right.

00:27:11   It's just that they're not going to continue it for the time being or like in a sense of like, we're not going to go into production on that thing, but it doesn't mean that they're not going to do it at all.

00:27:21   It's just maybe they've missed their timeline again, which is the thing that we already kind of knew, right?

00:27:25   They kept missing their timeline for this project.

00:27:28   And also the Apple card.

00:27:29   So a month or so ago, I think we spoke about, there was a big report that, uh, the Apple card relationship with Goldman Sachs was in jeopardy and it kind of seemed like everybody wanted out of the deal.

00:27:43   And that Goldman Sachs was trying to find somebody to give the business to.

00:27:47   Well, the Wall Street Journal is saying that Apple is ending its partnership with Goldman Sachs within the next 12 to 15 months that they have kind of gone to Goldman Sachs.

00:27:56   So we'd like to get out of this.

00:27:58   And now there'll be a conversation about how and when that's going to happen.

00:28:02   This not only is the Apple card, but also the Apple savings account.

00:28:06   Uh, Mark Gorman also wrote about this in his newsletter and he thinks they're going to be, they will move to chase.

00:28:12   It seems like the best home for them, but it actually is unknown at this point, it seems where the company will land.

00:28:18   Yeah.

00:28:19   And there was some talk about MX, but the problem with that is that you're converting Mastercards into MXs, which is going to be a problem for a lot of customers.

00:28:26   Who don't want an MX, they want a, a Mastercard that MX isn't taken as many places and all of those things.

00:28:32   And, uh, so chase is not a bad, I mean, I don't know whether that's Mark having some behind the scenes skinny or whether that's even, it didn't feel like it with the way that he wrote it, but I don't know.

00:28:44   Well, definitely.

00:28:45   Or if it's a plant, but yeah, I mean, I wonder if it's maybe wish casting a little bit of sort of like somebody saying, you know, who would be good as chase, like somebody inside Apple saying, you know, chase might be good.

00:28:54   Like alert Bloomberg mentioned this so that chase pays attention because businesses pay attention to what is on Bloomberg.

00:29:00   Let me tell you.

00:29:01   And, uh, so maybe something like that is happening there where, um, there's someone somewhere who's kind of hoping that the chase Apple thing is the right partnership.

00:29:10   I would also, you said Apple, everybody wants out of it and Apple wants out of it.

00:29:14   It sounds to me like Apple's got a deal with.

00:29:17   Uh, Goldman Sachs and it's a pretty sweet deal that Goldman Sachs wants out of.

00:29:22   And I think Apple doesn't want to have a partner who desperately wants out of the deal, but I read this as being that Apple has decided to let Goldman Sachs off the hook.

00:29:32   It does feel that way, but because of the way that the deal is written, like Apple have to ask Goldman Sachs if they can leave, even though Goldman Sachs wants them to leave.

00:29:44   There's like this grace period point where they can ask to go and if they do, there's like a, I think like a 12 month kind of winding down of the project, but because the deal was extended, they kind of need to, to around each other a little bit.

00:29:59   But yeah, I guess from Apple knows, I'm sure knows that Goldman doesn't want them, but they're locked into an arrangement.

00:30:06   And so I guess this is kind of like moving through the process and they're just like, I guess they found someone else or they're going to try and at some point they're going to do it themselves, which I think is the more complicated thing.

00:30:17   I would expect Apple probably didn't want to move to someone else unless they had to, because eventually I'm sure they're going to try and just like work this out on their own.

00:30:26   Um, but they need a partner for now.

00:30:28   Well, you don't want to spin up a whole bank of your own if you don't need to and you don't, you're not sure that you are going to need it in the long run.

00:30:35   I think that typical Apple doctrine of we'll do it ourselves.

00:30:39   It, uh, only it, it's only sensible once you decide that it's a key thing that you want to control, it's much better in a highly regulated environment to have a partner.

00:30:50   Yeah.

00:30:51   Uh, and so, yeah, I'm sure that they would prefer a partner and an engaged partner, right?

00:30:55   And the problem is that this isn't a bad business.

00:30:57   It's the Goldman Sachs doesn't want to be in this business.

00:31:00   Because, um, this was a like experiment for them to take on consumer banking and they seem to have almost immediately regretted it.

00:31:07   And I don't get the sense that this is something where no one will touch it because nobody wants to do business with Apple in the banking sector.

00:31:16   I don't think that's the case.

00:31:17   And, and so, yeah, so I guess we'll watch it, but as somebody with an Apple card, I'm kind of curious about what happens, uh, down the road because at some point they're going to have to say, Hmm, you're this just happened with us.

00:31:30   Our, our mortgage got taken over.

00:31:31   We got a, a letter that was like, Hey, we sold your mortgage to this totally other group that will now be contacting you.

00:31:39   And, uh, and then you'll need to give them your payment information.

00:31:42   And there was a whole like legal chain that had to happen to pass that through.

00:31:46   And I imagine it's been a long time since my bank was acquired.

00:31:50   I had, I, I had a bank that got acquired by another bank and it was the same thing where you have to kind of go through these steps and it's a little bit weird because of the regulation.

00:31:58   So, um, I guess all the Apple card holders will have to deal with that.

00:32:02   Yeah.

00:32:03   And interesting note on this, I saw some people talking about this in discord.

00:32:07   So Apple pay later.

00:32:08   That's something that Goldman helps with, but there is a company called Apple financing LLC that is responsible for it, which is different to the Apple card where Goldman Sachs is responsible.

00:32:20   So I don't know if they're going to continue trying to scale what that company can do, but I'm sure they would like to.

00:32:28   At some point.

00:32:29   And there are those savings accounts that are like, I think that is Goldman.

00:32:32   That's cool.

00:32:33   Is that Goldman?

00:32:34   So, okay.

00:32:34   So there's, this is confusing the Apple savings is Goldman, but you know, they have like the Apple pay kind of card thing, like Apple pay cash thing.

00:32:44   There's like a card for it that you can use, right?

00:32:47   Your Apple cash.

00:32:48   You can pay for stuff that is from a company called, I think green dot.

00:32:53   So Apple cash.

00:32:55   I'm looking at the, the, the, the T's and C's.

00:32:58   Apple cash services are provided by green dot bank.

00:33:01   Now I had read in my kind of research about this topic today that green dot is not like particularly reliable apparently.

00:33:08   And so Apple would actually quite like to have that whatever partner they find.

00:33:13   Move this to that partner as well, which is one of the reasons that Mark Gurman said that chase could work because chase offer debit card stuff.

00:33:22   Where Goldman doesn't.

00:33:25   So if they were to move to chase, they could use move the debit stuff, which is Apple cash and the credit stuff, which is Apple card.

00:33:31   Huh?

00:33:33   Interesting.

00:33:34   But we'll see.

00:33:35   Guess so.

00:33:36   Software applications incorporated.

00:33:40   Which is an incredible name.

00:33:42   Mysterious engineering business.

00:33:44   Uh, a report from an interview from Alex Heath at the verge with workflow founders, Ari Weinstein and Conrad Kramer.

00:33:54   They have joined up with X Apple product manager, Kim beverage to launch a new company focused on bringing AI tools to the desktop.

00:34:02   They all left Apple this year and have embarked on this new venture together.

00:34:05   Obviously Ari and Conrad, they were founders of workflow, became shortcuts.

00:34:10   They moved to Apple.

00:34:11   They have both since left Apple and beverage has gone with them.

00:34:14   Uh, I want to read a quote from the interview.

00:34:18   Uh, cause I just think this is kind of fascinating what they're looking to do.

00:34:22   So the ultimate goal, according to Weinstein is to, is to recreate the magic that you felt when you use computers in the eighties and nineties, if you turned on an Apple two or an Atari, you'd get this basic console where you could type in basic code as a user and program the computer to do whatever you wanted.

00:34:39   Nowadays, it's sort of the exact opposite.

00:34:42   Everybody spends time in very optimized operating systems of pieces of software that are designed to be extremely easy to use, but are not flexible.

00:34:50   Sometimes you've got a browser window open with a schedule on it and you just want to say, add this to my Canada, but there's no way to do that.

00:34:56   We think that language models and AI give us the ingredients to make a new kind of software that can unlock this fundamental power of computing and make everyday people able to use computers to actually solve their problems.

00:35:08   So this is what Ari and the team are thinking about.

00:35:10   I guess they're looking at bringing large language models to the desktop, the website, which incredible domain name software.

00:35:20   Inc is basically just Mac OS eight is their website is like the theme of their website.

00:35:25   What, what's your feeling on all this?

00:35:28   It's, it's not just a theme of their website.

00:35:30   Like literally it's an emulator running and all the information is inside the apps running in the emulator, which is hilarious.

00:35:37   I mean, first off, if you are leaving a big company after having sold it, which is what happened with workflow.

00:35:45   Then, uh, you stay for awhile and you vest and then you get out of there and that's what they did, which is sad for, for shortcuts, but, and then you're trying to do another company and get investment.

00:35:57   And AI is a thing that you should probably say for your startup.

00:36:02   So there's some of that going on here too, but I like the idea a little less cynically.

00:36:06   I like the idea as well.

00:36:08   That what they're saying here is the, you know, these are people who've thought about user automation and customization for a long time, right?

00:36:14   And we, when we talk about it, like nerdy computer people, uh, do, and I count myself in there, do automation and things.

00:36:24   But the challenge, I think that they may be faced with shortcuts is that most people, even with something as friendly as the little shortcuts blocks, where it's not code that you're writing, it's still super intimidating.

00:36:37   And so their premise here, I really like the idea.

00:36:41   The premise is why don't I just tell the computer what I want to do?

00:36:46   And it knows what that is.

00:36:49   And it's this idea that like there is, and I don't want to say necessarily intelligence, but like there's an awareness of the context of what you're doing on your computer.

00:37:01   That currently doesn't exist.

00:37:04   And the example is so great, which is you've got a browser window open with a schedule on it.

00:37:09   And you want to say, add this to my calendar.

00:37:12   And the idea there is that your agent knows what that window is that you're looking at and knows what's in it and understands what it is and understands what about it would get added to a calendar and is capable of asking questions.

00:37:27   If it isn't quite sure what you mean and like, yeah, that is powerful, right?

00:37:33   Because even though computers save us time in so many different ways, the fact is you get in a situation where what you have to do is look at data that's in a window that's understandable, that says, how about we meet at this time or, you know, look at this schedule for what we're going to do tomorrow.

00:37:48   And you end up going like, okay, I'm going to move that window over to the left and I'm going to open my calendar to the right, and I'm going to make a bunch of entries and enter all the events back in.

00:37:59   And like, you know, that should, you shouldn't have to do that, but it's also not something where you could, even if you're an automation person, you could look at it and say, ah, I can automate this because how do you automate random emails that say, here's some stuff, right?

00:38:13   You, you need something like a language model that's aware of what's going on in the system and the context of it to sit there and parse it and sort of like understand what that context is.

00:38:23   It's a, it's a cool idea.

00:38:25   I'm not quite sure like the Apple two or Atari thing.

00:38:28   It's very much like that was a hobbyist.

00:38:31   You could get the computer to do whatever you wanted.

00:38:32   I don't agree that nowadays it's the exact opposite.

00:38:35   I feel like you can still get the computer to do a lot of things and I don't think their company is here to say, aha, we're going to let people now all of a sudden program the computer to do whatever you wanted in a way that is like locked down.

00:38:48   Like I don't, I don't entirely agree with that premise because the whole idea of the second part seems to be that you can get the computer to do what you want it to do by asking because it understands it.

00:39:01   And that's a little bit like, I'd say turning on an Apple two or an Atari was super intimidating and that's not what they're going for here.

00:39:08   But I like the idea that there's stuff that, that, um, you know, can you create not user automations, but like an assistant that will help solve the problem because this is taking it back to user automation.

00:39:24   Like the number one reason that I started using Apple script is that I had different apps that I wanted to talk to each other and they don't talk to each other.

00:39:32   Like my email program didn't know what this database knew.

00:39:35   And what my calendar knew.

00:39:37   They didn't know.

00:39:38   And the, and they weren't built to know that.

00:39:41   So I had to write scripts that looked over there and grab this and put it over here and all of that.

00:39:47   And that's still sort of true, right?

00:39:49   Like a lot of the stuff we do is in a silo and the only entity that is looking at your screen and all the windows in it and knows about what you're doing is you the user.

00:40:01   And from this statement, um, from Ari, what I get is the idea that.

00:40:07   Wouldn't it be nice if your computer also understood the context of all the different things that you were doing and could do something with it.

00:40:16   And that's really hard.

00:40:17   That's a real challenge, but that is one of those frontiers of computing, which is we're still on this app model where there's not a lot of information shared and everything has to be done explicitly.

00:40:28   And, you know, you, you know, your calendar doesn't look at your email unless the calendar app and the email app have been written to talk to each other.

00:40:35   That otherwise it just doesn't happen.

00:40:36   That's up to you human.

00:40:38   You need to be the one who's operating us apps and do what you want.

00:40:43   And what Ari is saying is, you know, what if the computer.

00:40:46   Knew what was in your apps and could do things from, take things from one app and put it in another app.

00:40:51   And that's, that's, uh, it's not quite the same as what we think of as user automation, but, um, it gets to, I think, uh, an important point about, uh, a weakness with how we use computers.

00:41:03   Yeah, I wouldn't even, I don't see where you're going with your automation, right?

00:41:06   Cause this is where they come from, but like this just, it, to me, it feels like the logical way that a computer should be able to work, right.

00:41:11   That you should be able to make, give it instruction.

00:41:14   And I will say this kind of idea is giving me hope because I've had this like bubbling concern about Apple and advanced Siri AI.

00:41:25   So let's imagine that cause we've heard that they're going to do this right.

00:41:29   That Apple's gonna create their own advanced large language model that can interact with your email, your notes, your calendar.

00:41:37   Are they going to do this for just their apps?

00:41:41   Like for me on my iPhone, will I only be able to get my calendar and my email to talk together if I use mail.app and calendar.app?

00:41:49   Like I use Spark and Fantastic Al.

00:41:51   Am I going to be able to use this advanced Siri to get these things to communicate?

00:41:54   And like, I'm worried that these, that the operating system versions of these types of tools are going to become even stronger platform lock-ins for operating system developers.

00:42:10   I would say not even necessarily, nefariously, but more like it's so hard to do this stuff that they say, well, we're just gonna, you know, we're going to build it into our apps first because that's what we're doing.

00:42:22   And I believe an API could be built, right?

00:42:25   Like I do believe that it could be, but I don't know if that's the route they're going to go.

00:42:29   And so I see tools like this and the Mac as like the savior of that because a tool on the Mac has way more ability.

00:42:39   So I think the issue is going to be closed platform systems like the iPhone and the iPad.

00:42:43   You're not going to be able to have an app like this from Software Applications Incorporated, but it will work on the Mac.

00:42:49   Right.

00:42:50   And this is just a concern that I have that like, if Apple are going to do this, I want them to create an API that developers can write to.

00:42:58   And then of course you have the problem with big platform companies, Microsoft, Google, maybe not working very well with Apple's APIs, but at least want them to try, right?

00:43:09   That like it would be possible to plug in to whatever system they're building, but I'm concerned that it won't be the case.

00:43:14   Let me back out for a second though, because I think that there's another way of viewing this and I don't know if Apple is doing this.

00:43:21   I suspect that this group is doing this, which is what if you didn't have to rely on all of those APIs?

00:43:32   And it's a challenge, right?

00:43:34   Because you've got things in the cloud, you've got an email database in the cloud and all of that.

00:43:37   But I was thinking like one of the great advantages of an, of a large language model and the system trained to understand how to use a Mac, let's say, is, and you, and apps can do this now, right?

00:43:49   With accessibility settings, you can, you can ask for a UI control and you can ask to see the screen.

00:43:56   And so the power of, of a piece of software being able to understand by looking at your windows and what apps are open and what apps are on your system from that understanding.

00:44:13   How to use your computer and what's in it and what the data is without having to be like, Oh, you're trained on fantastic.

00:44:22   How you can use fantastic Cal now, but have it be like, Oh, there's a calendar app here.

00:44:26   I understand what that is.

00:44:28   Um, that, that is potentially really powerful, right?

00:44:32   To just, to back it out a layer and just say, what we're training is an AI system that understands how to use your Mac and what's on it so that you can just say.

00:44:44   Take, you know, the stuff that's in my browser and put it in my calendar and it knows what your calendar is.

00:44:48   And it, it can, you know, basically you can figure out how to make a new thing.

00:44:51   It doesn't necessarily need to know that it's fantastic Cal versus calendar.

00:44:54   The challenge with that is what you said before.

00:44:57   And, and it came up when I was thinking about that humane AI pin, which is for this stuff to be really powerful.

00:45:02   What you want is for it to have access to your personal data so that it knows, you know, it, it knows everything that's on your calendar and can write directly to your calendar.

00:45:11   Uh, wherever your calendar is being served and it, it knows your whole email archive.

00:45:15   And so it knows all sorts of contexts and all of that, but even something that just knew how to use your computer.

00:45:22   Could be a real winner just in the sense of being able to, you know, it, it, right.

00:45:28   Like it knows my apps and it knows what all the windows are and it knows what all my bookmarks are.

00:45:32   And it knows what my email is.

00:45:33   That's in my email app.

00:45:35   And from that, if I tell it to do a thing on my computer, it could just do it instead of me having to make like 15 clicks and dragging things and moving windows around.

00:45:43   There's some power in there.

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00:48:49   We had an interesting Ask upgrade question that I wanted to maybe turn into a little bit of a story time with the two of us.

00:48:58   Oh, story time.

00:49:00   Maybe for people that don't know necessarily our history, if maybe I don't know how long people have been listening to the show.

00:49:06   But Braden wrote in to say, how did the two of you become Apple reporters/content creators?

00:49:13   Do you have any advice for how someone could get into the same line of work?

00:49:17   So just kind of two things here.

00:49:18   Maybe we could talk about our histories first and then talk about some advice.

00:49:21   What do you think?

00:49:22   Sure.

00:49:23   Sounds good.

00:49:23   I will ask you to go first.

00:49:25   I will also ask you from those two.

00:49:26   How do you define yourself?

00:49:27   Apple reporter, Apple content creator?

00:49:29   I don't, I don't think I define myself as either of those, but.

00:49:33   What would you define yourself as then?

00:49:34   I don't, I don't know.

00:49:35   Journalist?

00:49:36   What am I?

00:49:36   You a journalist?

00:49:38   I mean, if I, if I was asked to give my occupation, I would say technology journalist and podcaster, probably that would be the, how would I be introduced on Jeopardy?

00:49:48   Mike, a technology journalist and podcaster from Mill Valley, California, Jason Snell.

00:49:55   That's what it would be.

00:49:56   There you go.

00:49:57   There you go.

00:49:58   Although I have sometimes in conversation with people when they ask what I do said, I'm, I guess I'm a content creator on the internet now.

00:50:05   I guess that's what we call that.

00:50:07   But, uh, I would say, look, I don't want to take your journalism away from you.

00:50:10   I would say you're a content creator now.

00:50:13   Cause I just think that that's the definition of what you do.

00:50:16   That's the word we use now.

00:50:17   Yeah.

00:50:18   But I wouldn't say that on Jeopardy, right?

00:50:20   I would say technology because it gets across what I do and what area I do it in, uh, better than content creator does.

00:50:27   Do you think the typical Jeopardy audience would more easily take journalists over content creator?

00:50:33   Yes, I do.

00:50:34   Okay.

00:50:34   I think so.

00:50:35   Content creator doesn't say anything.

00:50:37   A person who does things on the internet.

00:50:38   It's true, but it doesn't, it doesn't do, it doesn't say anything.

00:50:41   Technology journalist gives you some flavor of what I actually do.

00:50:45   And podcaster.

00:50:46   What does podcast that mean?

00:50:48   You know what I mean?

00:50:48   No.

00:50:49   Anyway, what's your story, Jason?

00:50:51   Um, so I was a, uh, uh, my, how far back can I go?

00:51:00   My elementary school teachers got two's and, and I got super excited about computers.

00:51:05   Cause it was an era where the personal computer was just starting.

00:51:08   And in college, I went, worked in my college newspaper and they had just switched to all max.

00:51:17   Um, and by the end of my college time, I was the editor in chief of the college newspaper and the person who was, um, like updating the software and running the network so that we could all print to the printer at once.

00:51:29   Instead of having to move our files to the computer attached to the printer, it was a whole thing.

00:51:33   So I was in always interested in both of those things.

00:51:37   The job market was really bad when I graduated from college.

00:51:41   So I went to grad school.

00:51:43   Thinking that that would be a way for me to stall having to get a job and maybe get a better paying job, which did happen.

00:51:50   I don't necessarily endorse the idea of journalism school, but, um, and, and I learned everything I, I really needed at that point by my college newspaper.

00:51:58   I didn't really need the journalism instruction, but I did learn some things including like that.

00:52:02   I didn't really want to do TV and I wanted to write.

00:52:06   And that I also met, uh, one of the instructors there worked at a computer magazine.

00:52:11   And, uh, she worked at Mac user and I was a huge Mac fan and a Mac user reader actually.

00:52:17   And so I got, I badgered her into letting me be a summer intern and then they hired me essentially.

00:52:23   And, uh, that's how I, that's how it happened.

00:52:26   And then everything else is just sort of my career ride, but that was that moment where I was like, I would love to do that because it was literally a thing that I loved that.

00:52:34   Um, because I, I poured over those issues of, of computer magazines back in the day.

00:52:38   And, um, on top of that, it was working in publishing and in journalism and also about a subject that I truly loved.

00:52:48   And what I found later.

00:52:50   As a Mac user crew, they all pretty much loved it.

00:52:55   Um, what I found out later is that, um, when they merged Mac world and Mac user, that a lot of the Mac world people did not love it.

00:53:01   Some of them did, but a lot of them were in it because they wanted to be in magazines and not because they wanted to, they cared as much about computers.

00:53:07   That was just the subject matter.

00:53:09   And there were a few people like that at Mac user too, where, you know, they went from, from Mac user to vanity fair or something like that.

00:53:15   I don't know, like that, that did happen actually.

00:53:18   Um, it's kind of weird and I never got it because I was, I was committed to the subject matter.

00:53:23   I really was.

00:53:23   And so from there, I just, you know, we came over from Mac user to Mac world and I rose through the ranks and ended up as the editor in chief and the editorial director.

00:53:31   And then didn't got promoted again and hated my job and quit and, and went off and decided to do my own thing because I had been working and seeing my friends and peers doing things on their own for a while and really wanting to do that.

00:53:44   So like, you know, I got John Gruber, his first bylines in Mac world, originally writing how tos and then eventually writing some, some columns.

00:53:56   And, you know, all the while I'm thinking I really loves John's site.

00:54:01   What would it be like to do what John does?

00:54:03   And, you know, eventually I was worried that it had been a little late, but eventually that's what I did is between that and, and all the podcasts that started to come up that I also really appreciated.

00:54:14   Thinking this is what I want to do.

00:54:15   And so, um, and now that's, that leads me to now, but it really was, I mean, the number one reason I did, uh, I did journalism in school and worked at college newspaper and did a, you know, summer internship at a daily newspaper and all those things.

00:54:30   I, so I, I learned the fundamentals and then, uh, had an opportunity that I then.

00:54:36   Focused on and kind of pushed on, didn't let slip by to go to a place that was doing stuff that I was interested in.

00:54:43   And once I was in there, I made myself indispensable, I guess enough that I made myself hireable so that they, they, they hired me after being an intern.

00:54:51   And then from there I just worked at it.

00:54:53   So it's a scene from one direction, from one perspective, it's sort of a straight line.

00:54:58   I had this conversation with, um, with Lauren a lot where, you know, it took her a very long time to figure out that she wanted to be a librarian.

00:55:04   Um, like essentially a mid, a mid career change to being a librarian.

00:55:10   Um, and for me, it was always pretty clear, like I wanted to do media stuff and also I love computers.

00:55:17   So doing this for a living is pretty much.

00:55:20   It's funny.

00:55:21   I went to a high school reunion.

00:55:22   This was a while ago now, 10, 15 years ago.

00:55:26   And I expected everybody to say, oh yeah, of course you are.

00:55:30   Of course you're a technology journalist and podcaster, right?

00:55:33   Of course you are.

00:55:34   And what I found is that most of the people there thought of me as a, uh, as a media person.

00:55:43   Very few of them thought of me as a computer person, which I think is interesting.

00:55:48   And then other people were just like, well, you were a good student.

00:55:51   I thought you'd be like a professor or something like that.

00:55:53   It was, it was surprised me because I feel like at least in my inner life, I, what I'm doing now is not surprising at all from even when I was like eight.

00:56:02   It's not surprising.

00:56:04   In, in general, right?

00:56:05   Oh, is this kid going to be doing things with computers?

00:56:08   Yes.

00:56:08   Is he going to be doing things with media?

00:56:11   Yes.

00:56:11   And that was, yeah, I am.

00:56:14   I think of everybody that I work with, you're the person who has done the thing they've wanted maybe for the longest.

00:56:24   Right?

00:56:26   Like if I think about pretty much everyone else that I work with, the thing that they're doing now, podcasting or writing was the thing that they started doing.

00:56:34   On the side of a thing that they were doing in their lives.

00:56:39   Like whether that other thing was originally a dream or just a career that they moved into.

00:56:44   But you just sat like very early on was like, I want to write about Apple, right?

00:56:49   Like that was, you're still doing it, right?

00:56:51   Yeah.

00:56:51   I'd say the, the, the place that I have a similarity with those other people, all of our colleagues doing this is when I was in college.

00:57:02   And this is the thing, like, cause it's like, Oh, I'm in my fifties.

00:57:05   It was, it was the nineties and people were like, I, every now and then I get this little, like, Oh yeah, the guy from magazines.

00:57:10   When I was in college, I started an online.

00:57:13   Magazine.

00:57:14   Okay.

00:57:15   Just, I had to distribute it via like a listserv in text format.

00:57:19   And there was a postscript version that I laid out in page maker that you could print from anywhere in the world.

00:57:23   And we took submissions, it was short stories, took submissions from all over the world.

00:57:27   They were not very good.

00:57:28   We, we picked the best ones that we could.

00:57:31   But like, that was a thing that I, I was so excited about the potential for the internet for publishing.

00:57:38   This predates the web.

00:57:39   I didn't get the web until I was in grad school.

00:57:43   And I remember when I could finally get the web.

00:57:46   And so the one thing I would say is, and I've told this story a million times, but like, I went to Mac user and I was like, we need a website.

00:57:52   And I was told the future was on CompuServe and we were not going to do a website because CompuServe was a service where they paid to be online.

00:57:59   Imagine that. And they paid us because we had a special thing where we got money because people didn't just sign up for CompuServe.

00:58:07   They signed up for our publishers, sort of like in it's like CompuServe Plus essentially is what it was.

00:58:12   And that was a revenue stream.

00:58:14   And so I learned that important lesson that never, that companies are very bad at looking at new revenue streams when they have existing revenue streams.

00:58:22   And so what I would say is, and then we, we embrace podcasts really early, really early at Mac world.

00:58:29   Because I wanted to, because I thought it was interesting.

00:58:32   And I set up, we had a blog in the nineties before the blog was a word called tv.org, where my friends from college and I wrote reviews of television shows in an era where if you were on the internet writing things about television, the people who made the TV shows would just email you.

00:58:49   Because nobody was doing it except us and a handful of other people.

00:58:55   So like JJ Abrams sent me an email when I wrote about Alias.

00:59:00   The guy who did Everybody Loves Raymond wrote us an email asking if we had seen it because we hadn't written about it yet.

00:59:07   And he was clearly wanting us to write about it.

00:59:10   Phil Rosenthal?

00:59:10   He was reading our site.

00:59:11   Hmm? Phil Rosenthal.

00:59:13   Oh my gosh.

00:59:14   No way.

00:59:15   I love that guy.

00:59:16   I mean, I know him from Somebody Feeds Phil.

00:59:18   Sure.

00:59:19   And I just remember that because it's like, Hey, what do you think about Everybody Loves Raymond, which show, which I liked, but at that point I hadn't, I hadn't been watching it and I did watch it.

00:59:29   And then I liked it.

00:59:30   But like, he was obviously a little needy where it's like, why did the, why did these guys not write about that?

00:59:34   Oh, that's so adorable.

00:59:36   And what's the, what's the other one?

00:59:37   Oh, and Paul Sims, who now is the exec producer of What We Do in the Shadows.

00:59:42   But when he was doing news radio, we wrote about how much we love news radio.

00:59:45   And he was like, come watch the show live.

00:59:48   We would love to have you.

00:59:49   And afterward we'll hang out and play video games.

00:59:51   Uh, which didn't work out.

00:59:54   I mean, we did go see the show live.

00:59:55   We didn't get to hang out afterward, but like those were the, those are the days.

00:59:58   My point being that with Intertext, the magazine, with TV, I was always doing side projects and they were always about trying things on the internet and the podcasts ultimately were incomparable.

01:00:10   Because my paying job was a corporate media job.

01:00:13   And the reason is when I got out of college, I couldn't get a job in internet anything.

01:00:20   Right.

01:00:20   Like it didn't exist yet.

01:00:22   The only paying media jobs for a very long time were magazines and newspapers in that era.

01:00:29   And so, um, that was my paying job.

01:00:32   And then I spent all of my time on the side doing experimentation online because I knew where it was going, but I was trapped.

01:00:40   So, so I just, that, that's part of my story that I always want to mention is, is even though it seems like a straight line in that way, there is a sense in which I'm like other people we know who had this thing going on the side because I had a media job, but it wasn't doing the right stuff.

01:00:55   So I did that on the side and now I get to do it as my job.

01:00:58   It finally, finally, my side project, maybe this is the curse.

01:01:02   It's like, finally, my hobbies have become my job.

01:01:04   Oh no, I've ruined my hobbies by turning them into jobs.

01:01:09   That's a, that's like a whole different story.

01:01:11   It's a different story.

01:01:12   Yeah.

01:01:13   So my story is more like everybody else's story, I suppose, than yours.

01:01:21   Um, so I got interested in Apple when I was like 17, which was kind of around 2005.

01:01:29   I got an iPod mini and that like sent me through the everything, you know, I was frequently reading all the blogs and websites.

01:01:38   I could find including Mac world.

01:01:40   Uh, but like thinking about iPods, remember iPod lounge.

01:01:44   Oh yeah.

01:01:45   Remember that website, like things like that, uh, that kind of got me on to then like watching keynotes and stuff like that where like I, like I fell down the rabbit hole, became obsessed with read all the rumor sites.

01:01:55   Um, keep watching all of this stuff.

01:01:57   Got me my first Mac, which was the first Intel iMac.

01:02:00   That was my first Mac.

01:02:01   Um, then the iPhone came along a couple of years later.

01:02:05   I was there day one at that point, um, completely in forever.

01:02:08   Right.

01:02:09   Um, my interest continued, you know, getting new products, that kind of stuff and apps and reading blogs, listening to podcasts to the point where in 2010 when talking with a friend, we used to talk on the phone all the time and we would talk about like Apple and technology and stuff like that.

01:02:26   We're like, well, we'd like listening to podcasts.

01:02:28   Why don't we make our own?

01:02:30   And so I did that in 2010, uh, as the way that many people go, one podcast became many podcasts covering all of my various interests.

01:02:40   Uh, I started a network of podcasts to collect.

01:02:44   So basically I needed a website to collect up to like five different shows I was doing within a year.

01:02:48   Uh, Apple stuff remained the core of it.

01:02:51   Um, but I, you know, had various things like the pen addict started in 2012, for example.

01:02:57   Um, so then in 2013, uh, the network that I founded, which was called 70 decibels, I started in 2011.

01:03:07   Then in 2013, we merged a five by five.

01:03:10   We started producing shows there.

01:03:12   Um, it was that, that I feel like leading up to that point, I'd started to get a bit of a foothold in the community and people were aware of me.

01:03:21   Um, and the show that I did, uh, which I very rarely, I very seldom say its name, but I might as well now.

01:03:29   It was a different time.

01:03:30   It was called the bro show.

01:03:32   It was me and my friend, Terry.

01:03:33   We were like, we were basic, we were best friends, but basically like brothers and that's where it came from.

01:03:38   Plus there was assonance in the name.

01:03:40   So it sounded good.

01:03:41   Obviously I would not start a podcast called the bro show in 2023, but nevertheless I did.

01:03:48   And that was what it was called and I, it was, it started just as me and Terry, but then we, we got guests on the show that like became a thing.

01:03:57   Um, and we would invite people from the community, including my cohost right now, Jason was on the bro show and all my other shows over the time.

01:04:04   Uh, we would invite people on and this was like a great idea back in the day of like, well, we can have people on, we'll get to know them and then they'll promote the show and we'll find new listeners.

01:04:15   In 2010, that was a thing you could do and it would work today.

01:04:19   That does not work.

01:04:20   Like that is not really a viable way of growing an audience.

01:04:23   Um, I've heard people say this before and I think it makes sense that like, then the thing was like people like Jason, people, uh, like, like say John Syracuse, all these, but didn't have podcasts of their own or hadn't been doing podcasts for very long.

01:04:40   So if you were a fan of that person, you follow them on Twitter, you follow their blog or whatever.

01:04:45   You would listen to the guest episode or something they did because you never really got to hear them very much.

01:04:50   And so I think that's the reason.

01:04:51   I think Marco said that, um, at some point.

01:04:55   And so like, I really stuck in my brain is like, this is a reason why it worked then, but maybe it doesn't work now because like if Jason's a guest on a show, you might not feel that so much of a need to listen to it because you hear him every week on this show, for example.

01:05:09   I don't know that's the case.

01:05:11   And sometimes maybe people just want to hear the interviews, like if someone's enjoying this into this conversation, this is kind of probably what a lot of interview shows would be like, how did you get started?

01:05:18   You took through your story, but it made a lot of sense back then.

01:05:21   Uh, then, so I was in 2013, was it five by five?

01:05:26   I kind of moved some of the shows I was doing and changed some of the theming of them a little bit.

01:05:33   Uh, then in 2014, Steven and I decided that we wanted to be in charge of our own destiny because we wanted to actually take a proper run at making our side thing our main thing.

01:05:44   And we felt like the best way to do this was to own the company, be in charge of the direction.

01:05:49   So we started relay FM.

01:05:51   And then just a couple of months later, I was like, we started in August and I think in October or November of 2014 was when I quit my job and this is what I did.

01:06:03   And it's been that way ever since.

01:06:05   So then I think like one of the key things I'm thinking of today, it took 13 years for me to go to an Apple event, 13 years of producing content to attend my first Apple event.

01:06:18   And I was also like working as this being my side thing for like four or five years before it could actually be my main thing.

01:06:26   So that was a long time of like having doing something on the side, which if you don't mind me pivoting straight into the advice, Jason, I would actually like to do it now.

01:06:36   So my story is to say it's a tough road.

01:06:40   Like if you want to become a content creator in any way.

01:06:44   I hate to use this phrase, but I don't think there's a better one.

01:06:47   The grind is the thing you have to think about because it's a grind.

01:06:50   Like it takes a long time of hard work for no money and no audience to make something successful.

01:06:57   Like you have to be prepared for that.

01:06:59   If like if you want to do this, Braden or anybody else listening to the show, if you want to be a podcaster, a YouTuber, a blogger, you want to be a TikToker.

01:07:08   Like you have to I mean, I guess it's different with TikTok because they like to throw views at you in the start.

01:07:13   So you get that initial peak and then the crash when the algorithm stops recommending you.

01:07:17   That's like a whole other problem.

01:07:19   But you have to be prepared.

01:07:22   And basically you have to go in to this project because you want to create something.

01:07:29   And for the love of creating, expecting a paycheck or expecting an audience, if that's what you're how you're going into this, you're already starting badly and I'd recommend you don't.

01:07:36   Like if you're like, oh, I'm going to start a side business as a podcast and then I want to get advertisers.

01:07:42   No, no.

01:07:44   Do not think about that, because if you go into it expecting to make money, you'll just be sad until the day you may eventually make money and then you'll probably won't get there because it's a hard road of many years.

01:07:57   Like I did it.

01:07:58   It took four years for me to get there.

01:08:01   And that was when it was easy compared to today.

01:08:03   And like it's hard, this stuff.

01:08:05   So if you want to do it, if you want to create a thing of your own, you should like start a thing of your own.

01:08:10   Share your thoughts, but don't consider it as like an outlet, a creative project.

01:08:15   Don't think of it as a business and then, you know, start sharing with people online.

01:08:20   Maybe you're in a community.

01:08:21   Like for me, when I started out, I kind of got to know people on Twitter because people were like, it was smaller then.

01:08:29   I actually think Mastodon is kind of great for this because Mastodon feels like what Twitter used to feel.

01:08:34   You could actually meet people because Mastodon is smaller and more like focused around technology by and large.

01:08:41   And I guess we have a lot of the federated feeds that you can maybe because back in the day, right?

01:08:49   One of the ways that I found people on Twitter is it was kind of possible in a bunch of apps to just like view all the tweets, like all of them.

01:08:56   I know that seems kind of wild, right?

01:08:59   But like you could just view tweets from everyone.

01:09:03   Or like you could look at a hashtag and you'd be able to like or topic and you'd be able to read stuff.

01:09:10   It wasn't like a fire hose.

01:09:11   And I feel like the federated feeds and something like Mastodon is more like that now, right?

01:09:15   You're on a server that's maybe more tech focused.

01:09:18   You can just read stuff and you can find new people and you can build up like conversations with them.

01:09:23   That's what I did.

01:09:24   That's what like me.

01:09:25   That's how I met Steven.

01:09:26   Right.

01:09:27   That's how I met Federico.

01:09:28   Like we kind of got to know each other because we were doing the same thing at the same time.

01:09:33   And then there was kind of like a crew of people that kind of moved up at the same time.

01:09:37   And I think that Mastodon allows for that today.

01:09:39   But then if you start writing stuff, you know, maybe share them with people that you, their content you create, maybe get some thoughts on them.

01:09:47   That's how people can kind of get to know you.

01:09:49   Don't overshare.

01:09:50   You got to kind of play it chill.

01:09:51   Like don't go overboard.

01:09:52   But yeah, you have to get good, right?

01:09:56   And getting good takes time and practice and effort.

01:09:58   I actually think there is a beat kind of having no audience is a great way to get good, right?

01:10:04   Because you can be bad in private, which is perfect.

01:10:07   And so that's how I started.

01:10:09   That's how everybody should start.

01:10:11   So yeah, that's my advice.

01:10:12   I don't know if you have anything more to add, Jason.

01:10:14   Yeah, just a few things.

01:10:15   I think that was all good advice.

01:10:17   Um, side projects came up earlier.

01:10:20   And I think that this is dovetailing with what you're saying here, which is this idea.

01:10:24   Do not quit your job and say, I'm going to start being a creator now.

01:10:29   Ready?

01:10:29   Go.

01:10:29   Like, like you said, um, the, there's a reason why so many of us in this little sphere talk about starting something as a side project and then a turning into something.

01:10:41   It not only does that say something about how it's not going to blossom immediately and it takes time.

01:10:48   It goes with Mike's statement about needing to get good and doing that maybe in private.

01:10:55   I think there's something to that.

01:10:56   I was also thinking about like the phrase side hustle has always hit me wrong.

01:11:02   And here's why.

01:11:04   The word hustle I always felt like meant you're, you're, you're, you're hustling for money.

01:11:13   You're hustling for another job.

01:11:15   It's another thing you're doing.

01:11:17   And I don't think that fits my experience and the experience of most of the people I know.

01:11:23   Because the advice I'm going to give is it's gotta be something you love.

01:11:26   It's got, you can't just, I know I have seen people who are very clearly hustling on the side because they think there's an opportunity, you know, to be, to be had there.

01:11:37   There's gold in them, their Hills.

01:11:39   Yeah.

01:11:40   And what you said about it being a grind is so true.

01:11:42   It's like those people don't make it because they don't love it and it's a grind and it's not a gold rush.

01:11:48   So you're doing it because you love it.

01:11:51   And maybe you want it to be a thing, but you got to do it cause you love it.

01:11:54   I think that's part of it.

01:11:56   And I would go further and say, you got to do a thing that you're comfortable with, that you understand and that you love and then also learn from it.

01:12:04   And the reason I say that is if you get Tik TOK, and that's like the way you think you can express yourself the best.

01:12:11   Do Tik TOK.

01:12:12   If you get Instagram, do Instagram.

01:12:16   If you get like writing articles on a blog, do that.

01:12:20   If you get podcasts, do that.

01:12:22   But what, but this, this advice against the hustle also goes for that.

01:12:26   If you're like, Oh, I feel like I should do Tik TOK because that's where the kids are, but I don't get it.

01:12:33   Don't do it.

01:12:35   I would say for me, that was right.

01:12:37   Right?

01:12:38   Like everybody that I followed and enjoyed had a blog and they all wrote about their opinions for Apple.

01:12:44   And I tried that and that ain't me.

01:12:46   I can't do it.

01:12:46   It's just not me.

01:12:47   I found podcasting.

01:12:49   That was what worked for me.

01:12:50   That was it.

01:12:51   And I'm not saying don't like try Tik TOK and learn about it and maybe you'll love it, but don't do it because you feel like that's the thing you need to tactically do.

01:12:58   You need to find the thing that you understand and can do and are good at.

01:13:03   And, and that's different.

01:13:04   And, and yes, it is exactly Mike.

01:13:07   I was thinking of you when I gave this example, which is you would think in that context back in that era, that maybe the solution was I will also start a blog and that's how I will get into this.

01:13:16   And for you, that was the wrong medium and you found your right medium.

01:13:21   So I'd say, but in the end, like you gotta be motivated by loving this stuff.

01:13:26   I think, uh, that's, that's the, or at least that's the advice I've given because I love it.

01:13:30   And I, I, and, and you have to do that because not just because, oh, people are going to know if you don't love it.

01:13:38   I mean, they will, but also because of what Mike said about the grind, it's hard.

01:13:43   And, and I would say one of my top pieces of advice for people who want to do like podcasts or blogs or, or any kind of content is the number one thing you got to do is be consistent.

01:13:53   And, and that goes for an audience.

01:13:56   Like how many podcasts do four episodes?

01:13:59   And it's like episode one and then a week later, episode two, and then two weeks later, episode three, and then two months later, episode four, where they apologize for not being around for two months, but now they're back.

01:14:09   And then they never do another episode.

01:14:11   That happens all the time because it's hard to be, you know, this, this is, we're coming up for 500 episodes of upgrade pretty soon, right?

01:14:21   In about 500 weeks, I think a little less than 500 weeks.

01:14:25   Cause we've had some emergency episodes and things like that.

01:14:28   It's a grind.

01:14:29   It's every week I have to sit here and on Monday morning, every Monday morning at 9 AM and Mike has to sit there every Monday evening at five ish.

01:14:39   Yep.

01:14:40   5 PM.

01:14:41   Every time.

01:14:43   And it's a lot.

01:14:44   And, and the fact is you're sending a signal to your listeners or your audience more broadly, that you're going to be dependable.

01:14:52   And that matters to audiences.

01:14:54   I'd say anybody who wants to work with you, you're sending a message that you're diligent and you'll stick with it and you're reliable.

01:15:02   And somebody used to hire people.

01:15:04   Let me tell you, it matters a lot.

01:15:08   So you, which takes me back to you got to love it, right?

01:15:12   You got to love it.

01:15:13   You got to care about it and it's gotta be a good fit for you to even get started.

01:15:17   I feel like those have to be the base cases and then there's no guarantee.

01:15:21   Right.

01:15:21   And I do think that it's still possible that you rub up against somebody.

01:15:25   Uh, you know, I find that this is very open.

01:15:29   Like if somebody does something really cool and we call it out, we may not know who they are, but we just say, here's this person.

01:15:35   And there are so many cases where there was somebody who was seemingly random and we mentioned that they did a cool thing or whatever.

01:15:41   And then over time they ended up being somebody who is a friend or at the very least a friend of the show.

01:15:48   Right.

01:15:48   Yep.

01:15:49   It happens all the time.

01:15:49   So it can happen.

01:15:52   Uh, but, but being, make no mistakes that it is hard and that there's no one path, but what you really need to do is the, uh, look inside yourself and find like, what are the things that you love and you want to do?

01:16:04   And, uh, do those things in a, in a place and in a medium that makes sense that you get and that you understand and that you love and you should know that.

01:16:12   Um, and you could try things out.

01:16:13   Cause like Mike said, it's great.

01:16:15   You try things out and you'll learn, even if it's a medium that you understand or you think you understand and you love, you're going to learn a lot about, oh, that doesn't work.

01:16:22   And that's a bad Tik TOK post or whatever, or that's a bad YouTube video or whatever it literally, whatever it is, you're going to learn a lot, but you should start being grounded on it being something that you're doing because you

01:16:33   love it and you get it and you want to make it.

01:16:35   And not because it's some sort of a calculation, sorry to all the business people out there.

01:16:40   Like, what do you mean you make a cold business calculation, but for stuff like this, I don't think you can, cause you can't fake it.

01:16:45   If you've got lots of money, you could fake it, but if you don't have a lot of money and you're just doing it, you gotta, you just gotta do the work.

01:16:51   You gotta, you gotta learn and grow and improve and show your commitment.

01:16:55   And it, and because of all of that, it needs to be something that you care about.

01:17:01   This episode of upgrade is brought to you by Vitally.

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01:18:12   That's vitally.io/upgrade for a free pair of AirPods Pro when you schedule a qualified meeting. Our thanks to vitally for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:18:21   Now last week, Jason, you didn't do any Ask Upgrade questions, so I have a backlog for you.

01:18:28   So it's time for Ask Upgrade.

01:18:30   Lachlan wants to know, how are you feeling about spatial audio two years in?

01:18:38   Ah, so I have a 5.1 setup, so not full Dolby Atmos, but I have a 5.1 setup in my living room.

01:18:46   And I was just listening to some spatial audio there.

01:18:49   I, there are times when I will put on music really loud in the living room.

01:18:53   And I really love the spatial audio because just like with old DVD audio stuff before, like having being inside the music is really cool.

01:19:04   Pierre Gabriel put out a new album for the first time in like two decades last week.

01:19:10   And there is one of the mixes for it is the Dolby Atmos mix.

01:19:14   And I was listening to that really loud yesterday and, oh, it sounds great.

01:19:18   So like in that context, I really like spatial audio.

01:19:21   In the AirPods context, I feel like it's kind of a nothing.

01:19:25   And in fact, I often, sometimes it can sound interesting, but a lot of times it makes the albums that I know really well from listening to them in stereo at my desk.

01:19:34   Sound weird because the mix is the mix down is different and I don't, I don't necessarily, I mean, I don't hate them, but I don't, I don't go, oh yeah, give me the spatial audio on the, on the AirPods as much.

01:19:47   What about you?

01:19:48   I love spatial audio music personally.

01:19:52   Uh, I think it adds something a lot of the time.

01:19:54   Like there's many songs that I've listened to a spatial audio where I can hear something in the song that I hadn't heard before.

01:20:01   And I think that's very special.

01:20:03   I like that experience.

01:20:05   Um, some mixes aren't great.

01:20:07   Of course, but I feel like that's gotten better now.

01:20:10   I've, I feel like anything that comes out now, the mix is really well done and I've gone back and listened to some music that I'd originally listened to and wasn't sure of.

01:20:18   And the mix has clearly been updated.

01:20:20   I think this is a thing that producers are learning a lot from and it can be done well.

01:20:25   And when it's done well, it's really incredible.

01:20:27   I turned off the head tracking stuff a while ago with movies, especially I don't like that.

01:20:34   Yeah.

01:20:34   Uh, I hate spatialized stereo.

01:20:36   That is terrible in my opinion.

01:20:38   Um, so I'm not into that, but generally spatial audio is good.

01:20:42   And, uh, I feel like with, with watching movies on an iPad, that kind of thing, it can be a bit weird.

01:20:50   Uh, you think you've left the, you think like sometimes, you know, I've seen this.

01:20:55   I remember we were on a flight recently, uh, and I didn't press play on her iPad and then like immediately jumped her iPad and I knew exactly what was going on, which she thought the sound was coming out of the iPad because of the spatial audio stuff.

01:21:07   But yeah, the music I'm a fan of.

01:21:10   Uh, I will also say Jason, I am a convert of, uh, the adaptive mode on, uh, AirPods Pro.

01:21:16   Hey, yeah.

01:21:18   You told me to try out more and I tried it out more and I really like it.

01:21:21   I think it is a very good mix and I'm able to leave it on that now most of the time.

01:21:26   And I'm a fan.

01:21:26   I will also say that I continue to like conversational awareness.

01:21:30   I know that not everybody likes that.

01:21:32   Um, I like that I can just talk to someone real quick and it, and it just pauses my music or the podcast.

01:21:38   Well, all I say is it's good for podcasts, bad for music.

01:21:41   Cause if I start singing pauses it, that is, I feel like they should do something about that.

01:21:47   I don't know how, but like you, if you use conversational awareness and you have AirPods, you can't sing along.

01:21:52   And so like sometimes I'm in the studio, I start singing along and then my music stops.

01:21:56   That's not great.

01:21:57   But for podcasts, I love it.

01:21:59   Yeah.

01:22:00   Adaptive mode is really good because it, I don't use transparency mode anymore.

01:22:04   Cause I use adaptive mode, which allows me to still hear things, but, uh, it's less noisy.

01:22:10   And I am mostly in that when I'm not actively trying to block sound like on an airplane.

01:22:15   Yeah.

01:22:16   I do still use, uh, like noise cancellation.

01:22:19   Like, so I switched between noise canceling and transparency.

01:22:22   Cause there are times where I'm in a quiet environment.

01:22:25   If I'm cooking say, right, I'm in a quiet environment, but I don't want to hear the sounds of the cooking.

01:22:30   So I'll put noise cancellation on so I can hear my podcast more clearly without the sounds of pots and pans or whatever.

01:22:36   Yeah.

01:22:36   So I toggle between adaptive and full noise canceling.

01:22:40   Yeah.

01:22:40   And those are my two settings.

01:22:41   Instead of using transparency, I use adaptive and then I also absolutely yeah.

01:22:46   It's or if I'm running and I'm on a, on a path and there's somebody working, you know, blowing leaves or hammering things or whatever, like, and I'm not going to get run over by a car.

01:22:56   I will often toggle it on there, but most of the time I'm running on a street and I have the, I have the adaptive mode on and works great.

01:23:03   Having just taken a long plane journey, a couple of them.

01:23:07   Apple, please don't drop AirPods.

01:23:11   Max, like.

01:23:14   Apple's pro the noise canceling is really good, but just the natural seal that the AirPods max provide with the noise canceling is fantastic.

01:23:24   Like that pairing.

01:23:25   It's so good on a plane.

01:23:27   It just, it just drops everything out.

01:23:29   Like Apple's pro have gotten better and better, but there's always going to be a natural amount of like soundly could ship will come through.

01:23:35   Cause it just in your ears, but over the ears.

01:23:37   So good.

01:23:39   And like, I really love the pairing that they have because they have the two buttons.

01:23:43   Right.

01:23:43   And so like, if someone wants to ask me something, I press both buttons at once.

01:23:46   It pauses what I'm watching and turns on transparency.

01:23:51   Like that kind of, I just, yeah, that I'm a big AirPods max fan and I really only use them when I'm flying.

01:23:58   And they're just like, for me, the absolute best airplane headphones.

01:24:02   They're probably, no, they are not worth the price for just that.

01:24:05   But when I bought them, I didn't know that was all I was going to use them for.

01:24:08   But I've had them for a long time now.

01:24:09   So I think they probably worked out their value for me.

01:24:12   Yeah.

01:24:13   I hate, I hated over ear headphones, but I did at one point buy a pair of Sony noise canceling headphones.

01:24:19   This is like five years ago now and it makes my ears sweaty and I don't like it, but they absolutely do such a great job.

01:24:26   That whole kind of over ear headphones do such a great job.

01:24:29   If you power, if you do that and then do noise canceling, you've got the seal and the noise canceling, and it really is going to be your optimal experience.

01:24:38   Liam wants to know, how do you feel about on-device processing of face data?

01:24:42   I find myself frustrated that my phone and my Mac don't always have the same information when doing searches for people in photos.

01:24:50   So here's the, here's the challenge.

01:24:53   It's tricky cause on-device processing, I don't mind the on-device processing.

01:25:00   I think the challenge is syncing, syncing data.

01:25:05   Um, I don't want Apple processing my photos in the cloud.

01:25:10   I don't want that because they would have to look at my photos and analyze them.

01:25:15   And so you do that on device.

01:25:16   I think the challenge and Apple's been working on it is, um, syncing data.

01:25:22   So when you, now, when you say to Apple, yes, this is a picture of this person.

01:25:28   When you do training, I believe that data now gets synced across your devices, which is a hint to all of the devices about who these people are.

01:25:40   But what they don't do is sync all the machine learning analysis info from every photo into the cloud, which they could do.

01:25:54   My guess is they don't do it because the, the data is weird, right?

01:25:58   Because then you've got different devices with their individual machine learning models, trying to analyze every photo when you take it.

01:26:08   And if they're not analyzing your photo database because it's gotten records pushed, pushed to it from another device, is it going to be as accurate?

01:26:19   Um, I I'm sure there's a lot of complexity there.

01:26:22   You can see this idea.

01:26:23   So they're trying to do it where if you say, yes, this is this person, that data, I believe sinks now.

01:26:29   And so there's a way for it to be sort of more consistent across devices.

01:26:34   But yeah, the only other way to do it would be to say, no, no, no, we're doing all of our analysis in the cloud.

01:26:40   And that would require Apple to, um, not have your photos be encrypted and that they would do lots of cloud processing.

01:26:46   And I don't think Apple wants to do that anyway.

01:26:48   So I think their heart's in the right place and they're trying to make this, this situation better.

01:26:53   But I agree it would be great if there were even more of this.

01:26:57   And I don't know whether the answer is one device scans it and then all the other devices just get the metadata.

01:27:04   I don't know if that works or not is the, is the reason.

01:27:07   Cause I think they, they could do it if they wanted to.

01:27:09   And there's probably a reason that they don't.

01:27:11   Yeah.

01:27:12   I want the best of both worlds, but I think realistically it just can't happen.

01:27:15   Like I want to have it all processed locally, but I also want it to be accurate across every device.

01:27:22   And I do find it frustrating with things on, but there's kind of no way around it.

01:27:28   And I think I prefer the trade-off of things not being completely accurate than all of my stuff living somewhere that I don't want it to.

01:27:37   Right.

01:27:39   necessarily.

01:27:39   Right.

01:27:39   But they are trying, I mean, it's very clear that they're trying to make it.

01:27:43   Yeah.

01:27:43   And that's because all the, you know, anytime you as a user, as a human being say, this is this person, I believe that gets tagged on the photo

01:27:52   and sent out as metadata to all other devices.

01:27:55   And then they know that that's that person too, which is helpful.

01:27:58   Um, but the underlying.

01:28:01   Recognition algorithm is happening on all those devices.

01:28:05   And is it wasteful?

01:28:06   I mean, it is, you get a new iPhone and it reskins your library.

01:28:08   I mean, there, there is, there is waste happening there.

01:28:11   Um, again, if Apple can find a way to do it where it doesn't have to do that and that they're all kind of like sharing one brain.

01:28:20   Great.

01:28:20   But I'm not sure that's how their ML algorithms for photos actually work.

01:28:25   So there it is.

01:28:26   Otto wants to know which Apple watch complications do you use the most?

01:28:32   Um, for me, it's weather, which is mostly carrot.

01:28:36   And sometimes as Apple weather, I have an overcast one because I run and play podcasts on my Apple watch using overcast to air pods.

01:28:47   That's how I run.

01:28:49   Um, I have activity and works at workouts for their activity so I can see my rings.

01:28:53   It's less important workouts so that I can also trigger my running workout when I go out running with my Apple watch.

01:28:59   And when I'm traveling, I use the, um, much anticipated and finally here flighty Apple watch complication.

01:29:07   So for me, I'm using carrot weather.

01:29:12   Do you fantastic?

01:29:14   Cal activity medications and time are there on my like average watch face.

01:29:19   I use the.

01:29:20   Oh, the new Apple watch ultra one.

01:29:23   What does it called modular ultra?

01:29:25   So I have fantastic.

01:29:27   Cal is like the big one in the middle, which tells me what my next event is going to be.

01:29:31   The rest of them are all the little circle ones.

01:29:33   And depending on the app, that's either information or it just launches the app.

01:29:38   Right.

01:29:38   So like with Kara, I have the temperature one.

01:29:41   So it's telling me that, um, I have a date one for.

01:29:44   Fantastic.

01:29:44   Cal because I was just want to have the day on my watch.

01:29:46   I'm happy that I have that.

01:29:47   So I have two fantastic.

01:29:48   Cal, uh, complications.

01:29:50   I do kind of wish that I could have the date on the large one as well.

01:29:54   So I didn't need to have two, but nevertheless, I do want that information.

01:29:57   Uh, the activity one shows me the progress of the rings, which I like.

01:30:01   Timery.

01:30:02   I have showing the current amount of time that's actively been tracking and then medications and do kind of just open their application.

01:30:11   Um, but that's just because I use those all the time on my Apple watch.

01:30:15   Like that's effectively all the apps that I use on my Apple watch as well.

01:30:18   Realistically, I have like a couple of widgets, right?

01:30:22   So I have like, um, I also have carrot for more information.

01:30:26   I have time for more information.

01:30:28   I have pedometer in there as well.

01:30:30   Um, and also fitness.

01:30:31   Like, so if I want to get like a little bit more than what the little widgets given me, I can, sorry, what the complications given me, I can go to the widgets.

01:30:38   Um, and I'll also say when I'm traveling as well, I changed to a traveling watch face, which has Flyte is the big one in the middle because again, super useful when I'm traveling.

01:30:47   What watch face do you use now?

01:30:49   Uh, most of the time it is, um, California cause I can make it look like utility, but it has the more modern complications.

01:30:58   It kills me that utility still doesn't have modern corner complications.

01:31:03   I hate it because I like utility.

01:31:05   Uh, it's my favorite watch face.

01:31:07   And then when I'm, um, traveling and stuff, I will often flip over into modular.

01:31:11   Right.

01:31:12   It's just, this is the thing where I tried for a long time.

01:31:15   I spoke about it a lot on the show, right?

01:31:17   That I wanted my Apple watch to look good with the Apple watch ultra.

01:31:20   I just decided to give in and just like, just get as much data and information as possible.

01:31:25   I've given in, yeah, it's like, it looks like a computer watch and it is a computer watch now.

01:31:30   And I've given up the fight and I've actually been very happy with this setup that I've got because it is making my watch more useful to me.

01:31:37   So fine.

01:31:38   I'm going to be happy with that.

01:31:39   You know?

01:31:39   Yeah.

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01:33:44   Back to Ask Upgrade, can we get more lasers?

01:33:49   Oh, fantastic.

01:33:52   Love more lasers, more lasers all the time.

01:33:55   This question comes from Nathan.

01:33:56   If you had an iOS or MacOS developer at your disposal to build an app just for you, what would it be?

01:34:04   I think Nathan sent this in for, um, for last week when James was on and I was going to spring it on him, but we ended up not doing it.

01:34:12   In theory, James is the developer who could build things for himself though, right?

01:34:16   In theory.

01:34:17   Mm hmm.

01:34:18   Uh, I don't know if I have a serious answer here.

01:34:23   I have told James that he needs to work with me on building a curling stopwatch app for the Apple watch.

01:34:29   But that's it though.

01:34:30   That is your serious answer.

01:34:31   You want that.

01:34:31   So, you know, don't be nice.

01:34:34   That'd be nice.

01:34:35   I have an app idea.

01:34:37   I wanted to make this app idea once.

01:34:39   Uh, I don't think I ever spoke about it, but this is my idea.

01:34:42   People can do what they want.

01:34:43   It's called instant checklist.

01:34:45   I just, and I've used apps to like, kind of like fake this for me.

01:34:50   Just like it is, you have a bunch of templates, like checklist templates and you just press a button and then they become active.

01:34:56   So you're packing checklist, your grocery list, like things that are typically the same, but then you just tap a button and you then just get them all to check off very easily.

01:35:08   So like they just are stored.

01:35:10   Now I've kind of hacked this in a way we're using things.

01:35:13   So I have like a shortcut that I can run and then things would duplicate like a template project that sits in, but it's like, it's not perfect.

01:35:20   It's not exactly the way that I would want it, but so that that's my idea.

01:35:24   If I had an iOS developer at my disposal, they would build my app idea instant checklist.

01:35:28   That is now a free idea for the world.

01:35:30   So whoever wants to make instant checklist, go forth.

01:35:34   You know, that that's my, my gift to you.

01:35:35   I actually did, I think ask Rosemary Orchard about this.

01:35:40   And I think she told me that it's not possible.

01:35:42   But the other, the other thought that I had is I would like an cross-platform app, ideally, but certainly a Mac app that lets me write automation.

01:35:54   Either, I mean, not necessarily using shortcuts, but like using Python or JavaScript or whatever, and have those show up in shortcuts as actions.

01:36:07   So basically like letting me write subroutines that I can store away and then use as actions.

01:36:13   And, and I think that you're not able to dynamically add actions to the shortcuts library, but this is one of my frustrations with shortcuts that I thought it's really like, can I use a developer to do an end around around Apple?

01:36:27   And I'm sure if there were some very specific ones, that would be my other answer would be, I want an app that contributes these functions to shortcuts so I can use them inside shortcuts.

01:36:37   But wouldn't it be great if you could write your own shortcut actions instead of having to like make a shortcut that does all those things and then refer to it.

01:36:45   And then when you want to share it, you've got to like, I just, it would be fun to be able to build that in a different way.

01:36:51   And probably the answer is shortcuts should just get better and solve this problem for me.

01:36:56   I guess what you're saying is that you would have a library of scripts that you've written, but then in shortcuts, they just show us like the name of the thing.

01:37:03   You'd have to worry about the fact that it's a script.

01:37:05   Show us a block like that does the thing.

01:37:07   And I built that block.

01:37:09   And then ideally, then another thing that would be, would require shortcuts is ideally then when you share that shortcut, having the ability to pick up it's the custom blocks that came along with it and include them in the shortcut.

01:37:22   So you don't have to share because sometimes you share a shortcut and you're like, I actually need to share three shortcuts with you because they're all interrelated.

01:37:28   And that's not great either.

01:37:29   I mean, you have stuff where I wish I wish it was better.

01:37:32   I wish I wish it was better.

01:37:34   The world needs to know that Jason Snell is very helpful to me when it comes to shortcuts.

01:37:42   Like you're very helpful.

01:37:43   Jason writes shortcuts and he shares them with me and then I don't know how to make it work.

01:37:48   He's very patient and he helps me walk through it together.

01:37:51   Because I want you to benefit from the goodness of it and you don't need to become a shortcuts expert.

01:37:54   I just need you get to get you up and running so that you can do the great stuff that the shortcuts enable.

01:38:00   So I'm happy to help my friends with that.

01:38:04   It gives me a little taste of what tech support would be like.

01:38:06   And I'm okay not getting that taste because it's a bitter taste.

01:38:10   It's very bitter.

01:38:11   Jackson writes in and says, I've noticed and I noticed this too.

01:38:15   So I'm pleased that Jackson asked, I've noticed that some of Jason's recent Macworld columns have been translated into Spanish.

01:38:22   How did this come about?

01:38:23   Has the potential of a new audience changed how he chooses what to write about and how has working with presumably a translator changed the process?

01:38:31   Have either of you knowingly had work published in another language in the past?

01:38:35   That's a question I guess to both of us.

01:38:37   All right.

01:38:37   I, my former employer, publisher of Macworld used to be called International Data Group, IDG.

01:38:44   Because they, the whole, the whole philosophy was, build these magazines and have them be everywhere all over the world.

01:38:51   And so at its height, Macworld had additions in all sorts of different countries.

01:38:57   Including the UK and Spain and Germany and Italy and Turkey and Japan.

01:39:07   I don't know if we were in Korea anyway, a bunch of places.

01:39:12   And the way it worked was as the flagship Macworld in the US, we gave our stories, you know, our files away.

01:39:18   There was a, like a FTP server basically with all of our files on it.

01:39:21   And the licensees, some of them were licensees, some of them were owned and operated by IDG, but the licensees is what we called them.

01:39:29   They could take them and do what they want with them.

01:39:31   And it really varied.

01:39:33   Because the idea is they know their market and we don't.

01:39:36   And so it was not a top down.

01:39:37   This is a Pat McGovern, the guy who founded IDG.

01:39:39   It was his philosophy was people in the country know what the people in the country care about and we don't.

01:39:44   And so you're not going to have a like a brand manager in the US who's telling Macworld Italia what to do, right?

01:39:49   That doesn't make any sense.

01:39:51   Macworld Turkey knows the Turkish market and they know whether it's more consumer or more professional and they, and they adjust accordingly.

01:39:57   And they can take all our content if they wanted it.

01:39:59   So like the Macworld UK had a whole staff and didn't take anything from us, basically.

01:40:04   Macworld Turkey took a lot of stuff from us and so the experience of seeing your work in another language, the ones that I remember the most are Macworld Turkey, where I don't understand a single thing about Turkish.

01:40:17   And it's got lots of weird characters in the language that I don't understand.

01:40:20   And there's my name.

01:40:21   And I'm like, Oh, that's me.

01:40:23   I'm in there.

01:40:23   So that's the backstory.

01:40:25   IDG isn't what it was before.

01:40:29   And it doesn't even have that name anymore.

01:40:30   I think they're called Foundry now.

01:40:32   They did what they did, and this is, you know, is it counter to the original IDG philosophy or not?

01:40:38   I don't know, discuss, but they unified on one CMS.

01:40:42   They're using WordPress and they built it out for everybody in the world and all their different brands.

01:40:46   And so what used to be entirely separate groups now has one CMS where they publish all their websites that are still being published by Foundry.

01:40:53   And at one point that, so Macworld UK and US now are, have the same editorial operation actually, and they share content.

01:41:01   It's fascinating.

01:41:02   That they've done that and they brought in Macworld Spain.

01:41:07   And what ended up happening was they would pick some of the articles and translate them.

01:41:12   So a few things about this one.

01:41:15   I don't work for Macworld Spain and my editor at Macworld does not care about Macworld Spain.

01:41:22   So we write about, you know, I write about what I want to write about.

01:41:27   There is a thing in the CMS that now says, the way it affected me is there's a thing in the CMS that says, where is this going and what language is it in?

01:41:34   And I have to say English and, and you know, English global and not Spanish.

01:41:39   But other than that, hasn't changed a single thing about what I do.

01:41:43   On top of that, the bad news is I believe they shut it down.

01:41:47   So I don't think this is going to be happening anymore.

01:41:50   But in terms of like dealing with the international implications of my writing being translated, it was very much like old school IDG in that I just didn't pay attention to it.

01:42:01   And it was up to them.

01:42:02   If they liked my article and wanted to translate it into Spanish, go right ahead.

01:42:06   I don't have any approval.

01:42:07   I don't have any knowledge.

01:42:08   It just happens or it doesn't happen.

01:42:10   So it was fun because the bylines in the CMS are tied to your users.

01:42:16   So I would go into the, my little dashboard and WordPress for, for foundry, and it's supposed to be a list of my articles.

01:42:23   And suddenly there are articles in it that are in Spanish.

01:42:26   I'm like, okay.

01:42:28   But other than that, it's had no effect on me.

01:42:30   It is kind of fun though, to see your articles translated into another language, because that moment where you see the byline and all the other words make no sense.

01:42:38   It's kind of great.

01:42:39   Actually.

01:42:40   Do you think it could potentially open up a bit at a different audience?

01:42:46   I don't know.

01:42:47   I mean, I, I, I do wonder, so here's here, let me re spin that for you.

01:42:53   Um, I wonder if as AI translation gets better, as machine learning translation gets better, we are going to end up in a situation where every language, every website is available to everyone everywhere, assuming they can get to it.

01:43:09   And that it will be readable in a way that it isn't right.

01:43:12   Like we got translation in Safari right now.

01:43:14   It's okay, but it's not great.

01:43:15   But I do wonder in the long run, if whether it's in browser or it's on the sites, that that stuff gets translated so well that there are people like Federico had to work so hard on his English and it's excellent.

01:43:31   Yep.

01:43:32   Right.

01:43:33   But he's a native Italian speaker.

01:43:34   Yep.

01:43:34   But I do wonder in the long run, if that won't even be necessary, maybe for podcasts, right?

01:43:39   But for writing, if it won't even really be necessary, because if you're writing something and you have very something very perceptive to say, and you're in Taiwan or you're in Spain, uh, everybody just reads it and they're reading their native language and they all understand it.

01:43:53   That would be, that would be really interesting, but I don't know.

01:43:57   I, I still fall on the Pat McGovern side a little bit, which is I'm writing about the markets that I know and the field that I know.

01:44:06   And what I write, cause what this happens right with, with us where we'll say something and somebody will say, well, actually in this country, that's not true.

01:44:13   And you know, yeah, I'm from the United States.

01:44:18   I I'm not writing about every country and what is true in every country.

01:44:22   I can't.

01:44:23   And even if I wanted to, the amount of effort that would be required would be enormous and wouldn't it would not.

01:44:29   Would not be worth it.

01:44:31   So, um, I, I do think that there's some truth in, in having the value of the people who actually understand what's going on in those countries, right?

01:44:41   Like presumably somebody is writing about specific issues that are happening in France and they're doing it in French and maybe they're linking to English language articles too.

01:44:52   But I would imagine that they are talking about the issues that matter to people in France about like that.

01:44:56   They don't have to have an iPhone in a box in a box anymore and stuff like that that happens in France.

01:45:01   Or there are people in the Netherlands writing in Dutch about dating apps, uh, with different, you know, ways to buy them now.

01:45:08   Right?

01:45:09   Like I imagine that stuff is happening and that's great because there's, there's only so much of that that I can do cause I'm not there and I'm not, I'm not living it day to day.

01:45:16   Something that Spotify is trialing is very interesting to me.

01:45:21   They're doing it just a few shows right now and very limited episode numbers, but I think could be cool if they can make it work, which is they are doing translations with AI using a version of the podcast as voice.

01:45:36   Uh huh.

01:45:38   Sure.

01:45:38   Right?

01:45:38   So like somebody just translating this show, even like speaking it doesn't is, oh, it's fine, but not as appealing to me.

01:45:48   But the idea that it would be me, my voice and your voice talking in French, that is cool to me because it's like if it can actually learn my intonation and can kind of sound like me, but it's a different language.

01:46:01   Like I would do that.

01:46:02   I think that that is a cool thing and could allow for more people around the world to more easily like consume the content.

01:46:07   I think the problem is the quality of the transcripts right now isn't good enough because we, we, there's so much idiom that's going on and so much of the, the nature of, of having a

01:46:17   conversation, a hard job to do this.

01:46:20   Right.

01:46:21   But, but do I, do I think that that will happen?

01:46:23   Yeah, I do.

01:46:24   I think even with podcasts, you're going to, you're going to get to the point where the transcription is really accurate and you can on the fly translate it and text to speech it back out in a voice that matches the original speaker.

01:46:41   Yeah, that's totally going to happen.

01:46:42   That's four bizarre things that all have to become really, really good.

01:46:48   But I don't think they're like, you know, step one, we want this step two question marks, step three profit.

01:46:55   Like I don't see the question marks in a cloud, like in step two, I think it's pretty straightforward that all those things are happening and will continue to happen and will connect at some point.

01:47:04   Even though, like for me, I actually think the biggest challenge is not taking somebody's voice and putting it in another language.

01:47:11   And it's not translating, although translating can have issues and needs to get better.

01:47:16   They all need to get better.

01:47:17   I think my concern is that they get our, um, idiomatic conversation style translated, transcribed in a way that actually makes sense because that's, that's hard.

01:47:32   Not impossible, but I think that's going to be really hard.

01:47:35   And anonymous writes in says, I enjoy reading six colors on both the website and via Apple news, but I know Jason is not Apple news's greatest fan.

01:47:43   I'd like to ensure I support publications I enjoy.

01:47:47   So is there a downside or upside for independent website owners to make their content available on Apple news?

01:47:52   For example, do you still get page counts if I read an Apple news?

01:47:55   It's going to be different for everybody.

01:47:58   I only supply my RSS feed to Apple news, which I think means you get the sponsor messages as well.

01:48:05   Right.

01:48:05   So it's the equivalent of being an RSS subscriber, which I'm fine with.

01:48:09   We have lots of them.

01:48:10   That's why the sponsors go in the RSS feed, right?

01:48:12   Exactly.

01:48:13   And I don't charge sponsors by the page view.

01:48:15   That's not how I do it.

01:48:17   I can supply page view numbers and I can supply RSS feed numbers to them, but in the end, our sponsors are mostly there to get our audience in wherever they find it.

01:48:27   So if you read on the site, you'll see it and you're not a member, you'll see a text ad, but there's also a sponsor.

01:48:32   In the RSS feed and there's a sponsor, thank you on the site and it's all part of the package and that stuff goes to Apple news.

01:48:39   So it's, and it goes into RSS.

01:48:41   So I'm trying to make it as, as a neutral as possible because I understand that people, uh, consume content in different ways.

01:48:50   And if you remember, you can get it all wrapped up in an email at the end of the week.

01:48:53   That's the thing we do too, is there's a, there's a newsletter at the end of the week with the content of the week.

01:48:58   So I'm trying to reach people wherever they want to be. Um, and beyond that, I mean, if I had a page view model, then I would, I would do RSS summaries and force people to go to the site to read it.

01:49:09   But I don't, and I don't want to do that.

01:49:11   So I've got a way to put RSS, put the ads, the ads do go in the RSS.

01:49:16   Um, and I, you know, I think it's good enough.

01:49:20   I don't want to, I'm happy to be in a position where I don't feel like I need to do stuff like leave content out of the feed.

01:49:27   And in order to drive people to the site, cause that's not a thing they actually want to do.

01:49:31   Um, I'm an RSS reader.

01:49:33   I don't like it when I have to tap through.

01:49:36   Um, so, so yeah, it's not a big deal that people are in Apple news.

01:49:40   That said, I also never supported Apple's news markup thing.

01:49:45   Right.

01:49:45   And probably never will.

01:49:47   And I'm unclear on exactly how much, like, I would be happy to, for my stuff to be better in Apple news, but the amount.

01:49:54   It, every time I've looked at it, it's like, you're turning a rock over and there's all sorts of creepy crawlies underneath.

01:49:59   And I just kind of don't want to go there.

01:50:00   So for now I'm just kind of content to, they've got a, an RSS feed to munch on and that's, that's what it is.

01:50:06   That's where it is.

01:50:07   You can send us your feedback, your followup and questions for ask upgrade and snow talk by going to upgrade feedback.com.

01:50:15   Thank you so much to everybody who does.

01:50:17   You can check out Jason's work over at six colors.com.

01:50:21   You can hear his shows at the incomparable.com and here on relay FM, where you hear me as well.

01:50:25   You can also check out my work at cortex brand.com.

01:50:28   You can find us on Mastodon.

01:50:30   Jason is at J Snell on zeppelin.flights.

01:50:33   I am at iMike.

01:50:34   I am Y K E on Mike.social.

01:50:36   You can also find the show as upgrade at relay FM.social.

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01:50:45   But we are upgrade relay at upgrade relay and all of those.

01:50:48   Uh, I am on threads.

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01:50:50   I am Y K E.

01:50:52   Jason says he isn't, but he is at J Snell.

01:50:54   J S N E double L.

01:50:56   I listened to the outro last week.

01:50:57   Thank you to our members who support us of upgrade plus.

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01:51:07   Uh, thank you to our sponsors of this week.

01:51:10   That is member for vitally back plays and Squarespace, but most of all, as always, thank you for listening.

01:51:17   We'll be back next time.

01:51:18   Although actually I won't be I'm away again.

01:51:20   No, I'll explain it later on, but we've got a great guest lined up.

01:51:23   Jason's going to be taking the reins with one of the all time guests of the show.

01:51:28   Thanks so much for listening until then say goodbye.

01:51:30   Just now everybody get ready.

01:51:33   John.

01:51:33   Syracuse is coming back.

01:51:34   See you next week.

01:51:35   Okay.

01:51:35   Yeah.

01:51:35   Yeah.

01:51:35   Mm.

01:51:36   Yeah.

01:51:36   Yeah.

01:51:36   Yeah.

01:51:41   Thank you for watching!