The Talk Show

392: ‘Halos and Harps’, With Casey Liss


00:00:00   I cannot believe the work that you put into the show notes. This is clearly why you're on ATP,

00:00:05   because now I've seen the power of the Casey list. Well, truth be told, I did get to listen to Sir

00:00:11   Cusis' episode, which was very good, as expected, and he was not lying. Generally speaking, my

00:00:16   Wednesday mornings are about trying to make sure I've read all the links that, generally speaking,

00:00:22   he has added. Now, of course, I add stuff, Marco adds stuff from time to time. You can tell who's

00:00:26   who, because John has copious notes, exactly as you would expect John to have. I'll have enough

00:00:32   that I can jog my piss-poor memory, and then Marco will have something like "Marco's stuff here,"

00:00:37   which I think is on-brand for all three of us. So anyway, so yeah, so John's characterization was

00:00:45   not unfair. He does add the lion's share of stuff, but like I said to you via text, if I didn't go

00:00:51   through ATP and during Fireball, I would have forgotten every damn thing, and I figured,

00:00:55   worst case, we ignore it. It's not going to hurt anything if we ignore it, as long as something's

00:00:59   down and I've jogged my memory, then mission accomplished. Well, the idea is this is the

00:01:03   talk show year in review for Apple, and you compounded, I would consider it, so it's more

00:01:10   than just like a list of stuff. It's like the index to a book, the book of 2023, which is excellent.

00:01:15   It blows my notes. We have competing show notes and Apple notes. We're not competing, but two

00:01:22   sets. Before we get started, I just wanted to say, while we're talking about the Syracuse episode of

00:01:27   the show, I'm glad you listened, but there was a funny thing that I cut from it. It was sort of,

00:01:34   would have been the equivalent of an after show, which was John brought up the segment on the most

00:01:41   recent ATP where he asked you and Marco, "Do you guys remember the code names for all of the Mac

00:01:48   OS X releases?" And so I guess what had happened, I guess you guys do 52 episodes a year, but you

00:01:56   don't record 52 weeks a year. So you guys recorded this 52nd show of 2023 a week early. It was this

00:02:05   past Thursday. A week ago yesterday, I believe. I think that's right. So, and then I recorded with

00:02:12   John a week ago from today. So I did better than you and Marco. So he quizzed you as well?

00:02:20   Yeah. So it's me trying to name those releases. And, but I didn't want to include it in the show

00:02:28   because I didn't feel it would, you know, he didn't say don't do it, but it was clearly

00:02:31   the after show. I'd already thanked the sponsors and I didn't want to spoil the segment on ATP,

00:02:36   which he told me was going to be very funny. And I agree was very funny. So I didn't.

00:02:42   But I've always, I said to John when I was doing it, I've never been a fan of Apple's use of these

00:02:48   names for the Mac OS X releases. I know it was, his blog is gone, so I don't have a link to it, but

00:02:54   remember Wolf Wrench? He had the blog was like Red Shed Software or something like that. Or at least

00:03:02   I don't know, I forget where his blog was, but I remember at one point he blogged that he hated the

00:03:06   name and this was like, I don't know, 2006, 2007, maybe 2008. I don't know. But it was like Obama's

00:03:13   presidency still or like first term or like maybe Obama had just been elected. I don't know. But he

00:03:19   said he couldn't, he hates those names because he can't keep them in order. So he always uses the

00:03:24   numbers and I always do too. It's like my daring fireball style is to say Mac OS 14 Sonoma. So I'll

00:03:30   use the name, but I always include the number too. Cause if I don't include the number, then

00:03:36   if I go back and look at the article one year from now, I'll be like, I don't remember.

00:03:41   Why does Apple name Mac OS releases, but not any of the others?

00:03:45   I don't know. I would assume it's momentum more than anything else. I mean, it seems,

00:03:50   cause remember that I came to the Mac in, I want to say it was Tiger? It would have been 2008 ish.

00:03:58   And as we learned on ATP, I really have no idea what version.

00:04:01   No, that's 2008 is way too late. That's way, that's like Lion or something.

00:04:05   Is it? Okay. Maybe it was Lion. I don't remember. No, I think you are right. I think it might've

00:04:08   been Lion. Whatever it was, whatever big cat it was. My point is I wasn't there early enough for

00:04:13   like 10-0 or anything like that. So I don't have any particular recollection or knowledge as to

00:04:18   how that went, but I think it was just a bunch of momentum. And then, when was it? I guess it was

00:04:23   when they switched to California names. I feel like they were in the peak or valley, depending

00:04:28   on your perspective of dad jokes at Apple, particularly Apple keynotes. And if you remember,

00:04:33   Craig leaned way into our crack sleuths or whatever he called them. And implied if not said,

00:04:39   yeah, crack marketing team and implied if not said that they were all getting high and getting

00:04:42   into Volkswagen bus and driving around California, which I mean, I thought it was funny, but I could

00:04:47   understand the argument that it was garbage. Anyways, I think this was like the peak of them

00:04:51   leaning into the dad joke. And so how could you not have the dad joke of us all getting high and

00:04:56   going on a Volkswagen bus or what have you, but it is odd. I know there's internal code names for

00:05:01   everything, obviously, but it does seem a little weird to me that nothing but Mac OS gets public

00:05:08   marketing names that there are at least nothing that I can think of. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you

00:05:14   said momentum, I guess I'm thinking the same thing. It's tradition and they don't want to

00:05:18   break it. And it seems like there's a little nostalgia for the Steve jobs years. And it was

00:05:27   probably like a Steve thing to give the Mac OS and the cat names and they kind of don't want to break

00:05:33   it. But it is a little weird because it's the Mac. And clearly the crown jewel of their operating

00:05:38   systems is iOS, not Mac OS by nature of the iPhone being so absurdly, ridiculously billion user

00:05:46   popular around the world. But it gets just gets numbers. I don't know the names. I don't know. I'd

00:05:52   rather skip them. But well, if I was the most popular now, but we've got what two months until

00:05:57   vision pro takes over. That's what we're being told, right? Possible. I can't imagine any

00:06:02   scenario where vision OS anything I can't imagine where anything would be as popular as iOS because

00:06:07   but then again, I just lack the imagination to imagine a world post phone, right where the phone

00:06:13   isn't. Well, you use a laptop or an iPad or a laptop and an iPad and a headset and whatever,

00:06:22   and a watch and you have a TV box hooked up to your TV. But everybody has a phone, right? I just

00:06:28   can't imagine moving past that with the names. I do remember the one I remembered. I got tripped up

00:06:34   already by Jaguar, which was 10.2. But the thing I remember and I guess because it was new. I

00:06:42   remember cheetah and panther being the first two. But the reason cheetah really stuck out is it

00:06:49   seemed so clear and obvious that the reason they named 10.0 cheetah was some combination of

00:06:59   wishful thinking, projection, and Steve Jobs attempt at the Jedi mind trick.

00:07:06   Because the single biggest problem with Mac OS 10.0 was it was absurdly profoundly slow

00:07:16   because it was so skating to where what's the Gretzky's getting to where the puck is going,

00:07:24   not where it's right. Yeah, not where it is or where it's been and the graphic system with the

00:07:30   shadows and the transparency layers and everything was so far ahead of the hardware that everything

00:07:37   was slow. It was slow just to drop down a menu from the menu bar. I mean, you could just feel

00:07:42   it and those machines all dual booted in the Mac OS classic, which say what you will about it.

00:07:49   The problem with classic was it had all of these computer science, architectural problems,

00:07:56   because it wasn't a modern quote unquote modern at the time operating system. But one of the nice

00:08:03   things about it was because it had its roots going back to the 80s when it was had to be to even

00:08:10   function so close to the hardware. It was extremely fast at things like updating, you'd click the mouse

00:08:17   and the menu would just draw instantly. I mean, it was fast even by today's standards. You could

00:08:22   boot up like Steven Hackett or something, boot up an old Mac that's 25 years old and certain

00:08:30   things like that are super duper fast. And so the same machine that would feel so slow running Mac

00:08:35   OS 10, you could just reboot and I forget what it was like, hold down option or something like that,

00:08:41   boot into classic instead and it would be super fast. Or you could run the classic apps in Mac OS

00:08:48   10 and these apps that looked old because they weren't anti-alias, didn't use the modern aqua

00:08:54   graphics. Everything was super fast. So of course they named it Cheetah naturally. How could you not?

00:09:00   Right. What was it? Cheetah, then Panther, then Jaguar. I've already forgotten them.

00:09:06   Tiger 10, no, but I'm forgetting 10.3. I don't know. I've already, I did better when

00:09:14   Syracuse was on. And then there's certain TikTok things that I remember over the years. Like once

00:09:19   you know which one's lion, you can remember the next one was mountain lion. Leopard and

00:09:25   snow leopard and stuff like that. But the California ones forget it. I honest to God,

00:09:31   and it's like, I've been writing about this stuff nonstop over the years, completely. Not that I

00:09:36   didn't recognize the name, but I could have sat there for an hour and not come up with Sierra and

00:09:42   High Sierra, even though there's that's two years where they were sort of a TikTok pair. I could have

00:09:49   90 minutes to give me two hours all day. I never would have thought of Sierra and High Sierra.

00:09:53   Yeah, I was totally riding on Marco's efforts for that because I couldn't remember a darn thing. And

00:09:59   I think the way John had put it in the show notes was John's question as the third Ask ATP. And that

00:10:05   is literally all we knew. And I had seen this question come by via email and I, you know,

00:10:09   chuckled and thought to myself, oh, there's no way I could do that. And then I moved on with my life.

00:10:13   But John being John, and this is why I love him, he just said, John's question and sprung it on us.

00:10:18   And Marco and I were such a train wreck. It made for a hilarious segment. And so I am glad that

00:10:24   John handled it that way and that we did it and that everyone was a good sport about it,

00:10:27   especially John. But it was a total train wreck. I would say maybe as a New Year's gift to your

00:10:31   listeners or something like that, maybe you could put somewhere your segment with Syracuse and see

00:10:37   it as like a little bonus or something like that, because I think it'll be quite funny.

00:10:40   JS I'll have to see if we kept it. I don't know. I'm not in charge of keeping.

00:10:46   The other thing I want to do a little differently is ordinarily,

00:10:49   like you've got something I want to mention, I should have had you on when Call Sheet came out,

00:10:53   but you released an app this year. And ordinarily when I do this show, there's not a lot of

00:10:58   structure to the talk show. But like the sort of self promotion of the thing from the guest would

00:11:04   come at the end. But if we're going to do a year in review, I definitely don't want to save Call

00:11:08   Sheet to the end. I want to do Call Sheet upfront, because year in review can go way too long.

00:11:13   JS With us, surely not.

00:11:16   JS Well, so I don't want to try to squeeze

00:11:18   Call Sheet into 30 seconds. JS

00:11:21   Oh, yeah, you did the thing, right? Oh, yeah, it was great. Okay, we'll see you later.

00:11:24   JS Yeah. So tell for people who don't know,

00:11:26   tell people right now, let's get it to do it. What is Call Sheet? Where did the idea come from?

00:11:31   JS Yeah. So Call Sheet in short is my take on how to search for actors, directors, movies, TV shows,

00:11:39   stuff like that, all the things you would use the IMDb app for, but done by somebody who actually

00:11:44   respects their users. And so the IMDb app, while an absolute treasure trove of information, and I

00:11:50   say that without sarcasm, like the amount of information they have is bananas. But using the

00:11:55   app is just terrible. It's just an exercise in frustration, because there's banners everywhere,

00:12:01   there's autoplay videos, every time you load the darn thing, it asks you if you want to log in.

00:12:05   And it's just a mess. And for those of us who are not in the industry, and perhaps don't have

00:12:10   a login for IMDb, or don't see any need to associate your Amazon login with IMDb,

00:12:15   or what have you, it's just not a fun app to use. It's valuable, but it's not fun.

00:12:21   And it was early this year, I think it was in January, maybe it was December of this past year,

00:12:27   one way or another, at the beginning of the year, I thought to myself, you know what,

00:12:29   I know that there's a thing called the Movie Database, which is a completely Wikipedia-style,

00:12:36   you know, all the contributions are from regular people. And it's really cheap, if not free,

00:12:40   to use, because I know a lot of open source projects use it. I wonder if I could put

00:12:44   together like my own take on IMDb, and what would that look like? And of course, I started by doing

00:12:50   the nerdy stuff, like seeing if I could talk to the Movie Database and see if that worked. And I

00:12:54   started building a UI over time, and fast forward to August, and I released CallSheet, is what it's

00:13:01   now called, after going through a truly terrible codename. What was the code? Wait, what? I forget

00:13:06   it already. It was a portmanteau of film lookup, so it ended up as Flookup, which was, in true Casey

00:13:12   fashion, a truly terrible codename. But yeah, so it eventually landed on CallSheet. And yeah,

00:13:17   so I released it in August, and it's free to try, you get a week for free, and you also get,

00:13:23   well, I'm getting ahead of myself, you get 20 searches for free, then once you subscribe,

00:13:26   you get a week for free, and then after that you can go either monthly or yearly.

00:13:30   And I like to think it's a pretty solid app. It has a lot of touches that I think are unique.

00:13:35   It's more of a playground than I expected it to be. When I started writing the app,

00:13:38   I thought it would be a very vanilla replacement for IMDb that, again, is respectable of your time

00:13:43   and of my users. But as I got using it, I realized there's some fun things you can do here. And I

00:13:49   don't mean like animations and stuff like that, which I have a little bit of, and they're fine.

00:13:52   But what I really mean is you can do some fun things like, I remember when I watched

00:13:57   the absolutely incredible David--what is it--David Lindelof miniseries Watchmen,

00:14:01   which would have been about two years ago now, if I remember correctly, I got spoiled--I won't

00:14:05   spoil it now--but I got spoiled that one of the main characters in the show had a double identity

00:14:09   that you don't know until episode, you know, five or six or something like that, halfway through

00:14:13   the run of the miniseries. And I got spoiled on that because on IMDb, it said Joe Smith,

00:14:20   it plays character A/character B, and I was very upset by this. I'm still a bit triggered by it.

00:14:26   And so it occurred to me what I can do is, particularly for TV shows where there's more

00:14:31   of a progression over time, I can have affordances to hide spoilers. So you could hide episode

00:14:37   thumbnails if you want, you can hide episode titles if you want, you can hide character names,

00:14:41   you can hide how many episodes of characters in. So if you have an occasion where, I don't know,

00:14:45   some superstar is on some show, but they're only on for one episode, then clearly they're

00:14:49   just trying to get attention or whatever, and you obviously know that character was just killed off

00:14:53   immediately or whatever the case may be. And so that became a lot of fun trying to figure out the

00:14:57   right way to handle spoilers and things like that. And then after it was released, one of my other

00:15:02   favorite features of Call Sheet is that--and I don't think I'm a weirdo, maybe I'm a weirdo,

00:15:07   but I've heard a lot of people do the same thing--when I'm looking at, particularly a film,

00:15:11   I often want to know how old were these actors when this was filmed? So, I'm trying to think

00:15:18   of a great example, but say Dark Knight, how old was Gary Oldman when this was filmed? How old

00:15:22   was Heath Ledger when this was filmed? And it occurred to me, well, holy cow, I've got a really

00:15:28   fast computer that this is running on, and I know when the film was released, and I know when all

00:15:33   these people were born, so I can just compute that and just drop it right there on the cast list.

00:15:37   And so if you look through The Dark Knight, you'll see Heath Ledger was such and such years old,

00:15:40   and Gary Oldman was such and such years old, and so on and so forth. And little things like that,

00:15:44   I found, have become far more of an interesting playground than I ever would have expected,

00:15:48   kind of in the spirit of to-do apps or Twitter or, well, now Mastodon clients, what have you,

00:15:52   not to the same degree, but still in a similar spirit. And that's been super-duper fun. And

00:15:58   I'm still--obviously I've been slowed down over the last couple of weeks on account of the holidays,

00:16:02   but I've been dabbling with doing other sorts of things along those lines. And I think that's,

00:16:07   to me, the real selling point to Call Sheet. Not only is it incredibly fast, not only does it not

00:16:12   have ads or pop-ups or anything like that, but it has a lot of these features that someone who

00:16:18   really, really, really cares about this sort of experience would have. And that, to me, is kind

00:16:23   of the selling point. And is it better--is it worth it to you, the listener, to pay money for

00:16:28   something that you could get for free with IMDb? I don't know, but I presume that the people who

00:16:32   listen to this program, they're probably going to want a better experience than the IMDb app.

00:16:37   So that's the tip. Keep selling them, Casey. I mean, I think it's worth it. I really do.

00:16:42   But you need it to be a discerning kind of individual, and not everyone is.

00:16:45   I think you need two things, though. You need to be discerning. But that qualifies sort of the

00:16:51   nice app version of all these things, right? And you mentioned the Twitter and Mastodon clients

00:16:57   and stuff like that. And even if you don't pay for it, even if it's not like Ivory, I know there's a

00:17:01   couple of good third-party Mastodon clients that are free, but it's just to go through the effort

00:17:06   to try something that's not named Mastodon in the app store. And in Mastodon's particular case,

00:17:14   the actual Mastodon is pretty good, right? It's actually definitely not garbage. It's actually

00:17:21   pretty good. So you have to be discerning. But clearly, that's my audience. It's ATP's audience.

00:17:26   Exactly. But then the other thing is you also have to be the sort of person who, when you're

00:17:30   watching TV shows and movies, think of things like, "Oh my God, where did I see this actress

00:17:37   before? I know her, but God, I can't think of where." I need to get the answer to that.

00:17:43   So I've had, and I told you this when I was beta testing CallSheet, but I've had,

00:17:49   I forget when, I don't know, but at some point fairly recently before CallSheet, within the last,

00:17:57   I'm going to say 18 months before CallSheet was usable at beta and I stopped. But I've had,

00:18:04   on my main favorites on my phone, I had a link to the movie database. And prior to that,

00:18:12   it was a link to IMDb. So some point a year, year and a half before CallSheet, I did the same,

00:18:19   at least as a website, I was like, "Hey, they've got the same information and it's way better

00:18:24   lower noise experience." So I had it on my phone. And CallSheet is better than the movie database

00:18:32   website. It just is. It's nicer. I forget if you already had, maybe you had it under a different

00:18:37   name. I know that one of my contributions, A, was telling you Fluke Up was terrible as a name,

00:18:42   which I guess you didn't mean. And I think, didn't I suggest either renaming the feature

00:18:49   or something about the pinning feature? I was like, I want to be able to-

00:18:52   Yes. Yes. Your two major contributions to my recollection were both search history,

00:18:56   which you can see in the upper right-hand corner, which I believe I lifted from

00:19:01   Catoba. Do I have that right? Is that right? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. The dictionary app

00:19:06   that I do with Hockenberry and Will Haynes. So I lifted search history at your suggestion from

00:19:12   there. And yeah, you had, I'm pretty sure it was you, had suggested moving from hearts or favorites

00:19:16   or what have you to pins. And I think that that was a very clever idea in what I ended up doing.

00:19:22   And one of the things on the docket for 2024 is to build that out to be more than just a single

00:19:28   list of pinned items. And maybe there'll be a queue of things you want to watch or your

00:19:32   favorites or whatever. I haven't started that yet, but it's on the list. And another thing that's on

00:19:37   the list that I have started is a lot of people have asked for, and I had also the same idea.

00:19:43   Well, I know that there was a movie that had Heath Ledger and Gary Oldman. What was that?

00:19:50   And there should be a way and there will be a way to plug into people and say, okay,

00:19:55   what properties or what films and TV shows were these two people in together? And I think that'll

00:20:01   be super duper useful. That's on the docket for hopefully early this coming year as we record this

00:20:06   anyway. So that, that I think will be really powerful. Yeah. The use case for pinning isn't

00:20:11   so important to me for movies. Sometimes I'll just pin a movie to know that I want to watch it going

00:20:17   forward. I have a couple here, but for the most part, I just use pinning for the shows I'm

00:20:22   currently watching. So literally as I'm talking to you right now, I'm looking at it here on my iPad.

00:20:27   I'm going to unpin slow horses because I just finished season three. And then I will add it

00:20:32   again when season four comes out. But for the shows you're watching, either you're just,

00:20:37   if it's Netflix or if it's like an old show, that's already all the episodes are out,

00:20:42   but you're still not. Binging all of them at once, but for shows that are like, oh,

00:20:47   it's one episode a week, like the, for all mankind and what else I have here, a monarch,

00:20:52   which isn't bad. That's the Godzilla show. Apple TV has it's about as good as a Godzilla show could

00:20:57   be, but I just pin those. And then I know that I can go back to them and it, I mean, it's not

00:21:04   just cause you're on the show. It's an app I use almost every day because I all I always watch TV

00:21:10   late at night. And I always think of stupid things like who is this? Where else have I seen them?

00:21:16   What else have they been in or how old are they? Or I don't know, something like that. And I love

00:21:21   having it on my phone. Used to do it on the web and now I've got it in an app and it's, it's

00:21:27   terrific. And it seems from your recent discussion on ATP that it's doing pretty well. Yeah. Yeah,

00:21:32   I mean, certainly my most successful app and admittedly the stuff that predated it a couple,

00:21:38   there were a couple of kind of toy apps and then there was one called vignette that was pretty

00:21:42   popular, but it was a flash in the pan because it relied on a bunch of social networks to not close

00:21:47   down some publicly facing data, which as I expected, they pretty much immediately did.

00:21:52   I don't think it was because of me, but it was concurrent. But yeah, I mean, I think

00:21:55   call sheets done is at least as well, if not better than I had hoped. Obviously more is always

00:22:00   better when it comes to these sorts of things, but it's been doing really, really well. I've been

00:22:04   very thankful for it. And if call sheet is kind of funny, cause it's one of those apps that if I've

00:22:07   done my job right, you spend very little time within it. You go in, you figure out what you

00:22:12   want to figure out, and then you bounce right back out. And that means I've done my job well.

00:22:17   And my interest is doing exactly that as opposed to an IMDB where Amazon just wants to sell you

00:22:23   junk, be it streaming stuff or DVDs or Blu-rays or what have you. I don't think that Amazon's

00:22:29   interests and most of their users' interests are aligned. Whereas I like to think that

00:22:33   my interests and my users' interests are very much aligned. Another great example of something

00:22:37   that I get to do that I don't think Amazon would ever do is it's not really possible with the just

00:22:42   basic Apple TV stuff. But if you're watching something within Plex or within another app

00:22:48   that I really love called Channels, which is kind of a computer-based DVR, you can optionally in

00:22:52   call sheet turn on like a sync with them such that you don't have to log into anything. It will ask

00:22:59   on your network, "Hey, are there any Plex players or any Channels players playing things right now?"

00:23:04   And if any of them respond, it'll drop those properties right there on that first screen

00:23:09   peer to your pinned items. And so if you're watching, I don't know, For All Mankind on,

00:23:14   it wouldn't be on Channels, but for the, I don't know, or maybe like Hollywood Squares or something

00:23:18   like that, Jeopardy. It could wind up on Plex eventually. It could. One could figure out a way

00:23:25   to put it on Plex. That is a good point. But yeah, so it would pop up right there and you would even

00:23:30   need to bother pinning those things if you didn't want to. And it's those touches that

00:23:34   as an indie developer or a small team, and this is the same story with Ivory,

00:23:38   with Ice Cubes, with a bunch of note-taking apps. It was true of Vesper, you know, RIP. You get to

00:23:44   do these sorts of fun things that a bigger corporation will never ever tackle. That to me

00:23:48   is where the fun is, both for users and for me. Right. Because there's no way. I'm glad to hear

00:23:54   CallSheet is pretty popular and there's obviously room to grow, right? Oh yeah, definitely. You

00:24:00   know, there's more people who haven't heard of it than have heard of it yet. And you've got tons of

00:24:06   runway for features you want to add, right? It's always a good sign. But it's clearly never going

00:24:12   to be an app with a billion users, right? It's just not. And it's so much of our whole racket,

00:24:21   I think, over the last, maybe the iPhone era, I don't know. I don't think indie development

00:24:28   is dying, but I don't think indie development is as thriving as it once was. Even though there's

00:24:34   more people using more devices and it's like, I just a sort of too many people thinking only about

00:24:42   billion user ideas as opposed to just how well you can do as a very smaller one person operation with

00:24:51   tens of thousands of users or something on several orders of magnitude lower scale. And

00:24:58   Apple's not going to do this, right? They're not going to make something this integrated.

00:25:02   And it is kind of, if they were, right? Like to me, one of the danger zones for you would be,

00:25:10   and I don't think it's ever going to happen because everything is spread across so many apps.

00:25:14   And I just complained this week about what a terrible app Prime Video is overall.

00:25:20   I don't know. Do you subscribe to Prime?

00:25:22   We do have it, but I can't think of anything that I've ever watched within Prime Video or

00:25:28   oh, no, that's not true. There was the three guys that did Top Gear did a show called the Grand Tour

00:25:32   some of us back. I love that show. Yep. And I did watch that, but that was the only thing I

00:25:37   think I've ever watched on Prime Video. I know that there's, I don't want to go off on a tangent

00:25:41   on it, but I, my son and I love the Grand Tour. I know that there's a lot of people who think that

00:25:46   their best shows were behind them. And what was the, I even forget the Top Gear era, but I, we,

00:25:54   my son and I absolutely loved, or still do, because they do specials. Like they sort of

00:26:00   stopped doing the regular thing, but they do specials. And I kind of, in addition to the fact

00:26:04   that I just liked it myself, it actually occupies a special place in my heart because it's like from

00:26:09   Jonas's teenage years, it's one of our favorite shared shows that just the two of us watch. Amy

00:26:16   has zero interest in that show. I had a friend, you remember the park 55 in San Francisco, which

00:26:23   I forget if that closed or not. I don't know. I believe it was bought. I don't remember what

00:26:28   it's called now, but I think it was bought and it was somebody else. Park 55 is such a hilarious,

00:26:32   I mean, speaking of tangents, it was such a hilarious situation because it was where all

00:26:36   of our kind of crowd ended up staying for the San Franciscan WWDCs. And it was one of those things

00:26:41   where like it was the best balance of hilariously, but not exorbitantly expensive and yet sort of

00:26:48   nice and sort of proximal to or close to Moscone, but any other, in any other scenario, it would be

00:26:56   a total crap hole for way too much money. And yet somehow we all kind of converged onto it.

00:27:00   And it had a giant lobby slash extended bar area. So in those scenarios, like at a Mac world or WWDC

00:27:13   where somebody could put on Twitter, Hey, we're all hanging out at the park 55. And all of a

00:27:18   sudden 15 more people come in. There was room and you could just, you know, there was room for

00:27:23   something like that. And very, very few hotels had anything like that. But our friend Scott Simpson,

00:27:29   I'll never forget it. His description of it was like, it was the nicest hotel in communist Poland.

00:27:36   Trenton Larkin Sounds like something Scott would say.

00:27:41   Scott Simpson Like, architecturally,

00:27:44   it was this concrete or it is this concrete brutalist exterior. It's like the communist era's

00:27:53   idea of a nice Western hotel, but they've never been to one. So they get lots of little things

00:27:58   wrong, but they actually do try. And so it is nice. But it's just so weird. It was just so weird.

00:28:05   That's what the Prime Video app is like. It's like the nicest streaming app in Russia right now. And

00:28:10   they have no access to the actual good apps like Netflix and Macs and TV Plus. They hear about how

00:28:18   they're arranged and how they put elements on screen. But it's all flat. And it all looks like

00:28:25   placeholder elements like the developer, even to the splash screen when you just launch the app,

00:28:31   it doesn't look like it was made by a graphic designer. It looks like something that was just

00:28:35   the developer just stubbed in. And you can practically see how the file name would be like

00:28:43   realarttocome.png. But the one thing that the Prime app does that nobody else even tries to do is,

00:28:52   and it's the same sort of thing Amazon does with the Kindle, I think, where they have,

00:28:56   I forget what they call it, it's called X-ray or something like that. And you can pause a show or

00:29:03   a movie and they make it so hard on Apple TV. It's like you have to go up and into a thing, but you

00:29:10   can just pause a movie and the X-ray will tell you which actors are in the frame you just paused on.

00:29:17   C.J.P. Which is incredible. It's absolutely incredible.

00:29:19   B.B. And I guess, because does Amazon still own the internet movie database?

00:29:23   C.J.P. As far as I know, yeah.

00:29:24   B.B. I know they bought it way back in the '90s or prehistory of the internet, but they have this

00:29:31   data source for this stuff. It's sort of like an accessibility feature, making sure you have closed

00:29:36   captions for everything and in a bunch of languages and somebody goes through and marks every scene

00:29:44   with, I got them, maybe it's not the frame, but the scene, so that if there's like a two-shot

00:29:49   that's cutting between people, it'll still have both actors listed. It's a nice idea,

00:29:55   which scratches the same itch as call sheet. Like, who is this? Who are these people? But the

00:30:00   interface is so bad that it actually, even when I'm watching something on Prime Video, it is way

00:30:05   easier to just take my phone off. Because of call sheet and for this, I don't even put my phone back

00:30:11   in my pocket watching TV. I just keep it next to me on the couch. It's so much easier to just pick

00:30:15   up my phone and look it up there than to actually go through and try to do it in Prime. That would

00:30:21   be the place to do it, would be in app. But also, it would add clutter. I don't think Apple's going

00:30:28   to do that with TV+ and add an X-ray feature to it. So I feel like it's a good idea, but also

00:30:36   sort of Sherlock-proof. You know? I hope so. Don't jinx me. Well, I hope not to jinx you. But anyway,

00:30:42   so what's the price again? It's very, very reasonable price. I wasn't, oh gosh, I didn't

00:30:46   even think about this in months. I think it's nine, I don't even know. I think it's $9 a year

00:30:51   or something like that. And a dollar a month, I believe, if memory serves. It's been so long

00:30:56   since I've thought about any of this. So I think that's really, extremely reasonably priced. I

00:31:01   would say it's a steal. So yeah, well, for the record, if one of your listeners is just,

00:31:06   their socks are blown off by how good CallSheet is, which should be every one of your listeners.

00:31:10   But nevertheless, you can, there's an option in there labeled more purchase options. And as you're

00:31:16   going through the purchasing flow, and you can optionally give me more than $9 a year, and you

00:31:21   can choose to give me, I think it's $20 or $50 a year, which buys you nothing but my undying love.

00:31:27   And that is the only thing you get. You get no other perks. That's it. But a surprising number,

00:31:31   I don't have numbers in front of me, but a surprising number of people have actually

00:31:34   opted into doing that. It's kind of sort of like a recurring tip jar. And it's the same thing,

00:31:38   we were exploring something similar in ATP with our membership there. People ask us,

00:31:42   can I pay you more? And it's extraordinarily kind, just impossibly kind of these people. And

00:31:48   who am I to stand in the way? So there's that option as well, if you're so inclined. But yeah,

00:31:52   CallSheet's a pretty darn good app. I think I feel comfortable saying so now, an award winning app,

00:31:57   I just won an upgradey. Sorry if I'm spoiling, but I won the upgradey this year for best newcomer iOS

00:32:02   app, which I was extremely flattered by. So it is an award winning iOS app. Thank you very much.

00:32:07   So you can check that out. I also think one last thing about it that I think makes it really

00:32:11   suitable as an idea for you as a one person development operation is there's really no need

00:32:19   for it to become a Mac app, or like an Apple TV app or a watch app, right? You've got the iPhone

00:32:26   version, which to me is primary, because it's an idea that you most want to use on your phone.

00:32:31   And I don't think you've done a lot of work for the iPad layout. It's sort of just scaled up,

00:32:37   but it's almost none at first. Now I've done more than none, but your characterization of

00:32:42   not a lot is pretty good. But the concept suits what you've done for the iPad. If I had my iPad

00:32:51   next to me because my phone ran out of batteries or wasn't with me or whatever, I'm looking at the

00:32:56   iPad app right now as I speak to you. And it's great. It really is, the idea is suitable to a

00:33:03   not much work to fit the iPad instead of the phone layout. There's so many ideas where you really,

00:33:09   I mean, Vesper is a perfect example where one of the reasons the app failed was it really needed

00:33:14   a great Mac app alongside the iPhone app and syncing between all of them. And we just ran out

00:33:21   of time before we ran out of money before we got to it. And this is an app that it's just great as

00:33:30   an iPhone and iPad app. And you've got syncing, I guess you use cloud kit or something.

00:33:34   JS And it's actually so far, knock on wood, it's been pretty reliable for me. So yeah,

00:33:40   your spoiler settings should sync, your pins should sync. I forget what I think some basic

00:33:45   other settings should sync.

00:33:46   JS History, search history syncs. Because I've never conducted, I've never done a search on my

00:33:51   iPad and call sheet before. And yet here's my whole searches history.

00:33:54   JS Yep. So it turns out maybe I kind of know what I'm talking about. So yeah,

00:33:58   it's, I tried, I've tried real hard to make it fit for all the sorts of use cases that I can think

00:34:04   of. And yeah, I think it's primarily to me a phone app, because typically I'm on the couch. And yeah,

00:34:09   I'll often have an iPad next to me. But typically I'm watching my TV, I have my phone in my hand,

00:34:12   and it's an iPhone app first. There's the iPad version, like you said, I did flip on

00:34:16   Apple Silicon support, I don't know, a month or two after it had come out. And that's fine. Like,

00:34:22   I personally don't see it as a particularly great Mac app. But a lot of people have asked for it,

00:34:26   and a lot of people seem pleased with it. So hey, if you want it, it's there.

00:34:29   Dave Yeah, maybe like people who watch lots of

00:34:31   TV shows on their Macs. Yeah, fair enough. If you're watching it on your laptop, as you're

00:34:36   watching device in a dorm or for whatever reason, then yeah, you want it on the Mac. But it's and

00:34:41   again, it's fine for that, like a, it's just the iPad app running auto, or just flipping the bit

00:34:47   that says you're allowed to do it. It really is a concept where you don't really need the stuff that

00:34:51   makes a true Mac app. Mac asked to use. Yeah, I mean, it is not a Mac asked Mac app, but I don't

00:34:57   think it's but it doesn't need to be. Right? No, and I say this as a staunch a proponent of Mac

00:35:03   asked Mac apps as there is, but it to me, it's exactly the sort of concept that catalyst was made

00:35:09   for right. And it's better than a website. I think that's why you're getting requests for it. Yep,

00:35:14   exactly. I mean, over time, I will probably make you know, iPad better and Mac better. And you

00:35:19   certainly have started work on the vision pro thing, because I can envision a world where you've

00:35:24   got your screen within the vision pro and you have this like hanging off to the side or whatever the

00:35:29   case may be. And I think it does suit itself to that. And I've done a bit of work with that

00:35:34   against the simulator and so on and so forth. But we'll see it's the good news is I have enough

00:35:39   ideas in enough different things I want to do with the app that I'm kind of nervous about figuring out

00:35:45   the correct order of operations and being able to land all of it in the time I want. I mean,

00:35:49   that's a wonderful problem to have. But it's still a problem. I got to figure out what's

00:35:54   number one priority and when how quickly can I get all this done? Because it is just me,

00:35:58   I can. And I know that I, it's funny, I didn't think about vision. But it makes sense. Because

00:36:02   obviously, out of the gate next year, one of the primary things people are going to do with vision

00:36:09   pro is watch TV and movies. I mean, it's I've never watched a full show. I'm because I've never

00:36:15   had enough time to do it in the demos. But it is super, super compelling as a movie and TV thing.

00:36:21   It's, I mean, it's you can imagine anybody who even somebody who's never tried any of these

00:36:27   headsets can imagine how having a virtual movie theater size screen in front of you,

00:36:32   that blows away any TV you could possibly buy or fit in the house would be super compelling.

00:36:40   But it's also the case that I think once you're in it, you're not it'd be like you can I know from my

00:36:48   demo time, you can look down and read your watch and you can look at your phone. But it seems like

00:36:54   the immersiveness of vision OS is that such that if you are watching a movie and you'd want to do

00:37:00   something like look up something in call sheet, having call sheet in the virtual environment would

00:37:04   be important. So I would say it's probably the second most important platform for you going

00:37:09   forward. I know you said you know this and you've been working. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of

00:37:14   questions to whether or not you can put a third party app in an immersive environment because

00:37:19   the way the API's are set. And I haven't looked at this in a couple of months. But my recollection is

00:37:24   there's basically 2d stuff where it's all shared and you have this virtual world of 2d things all

00:37:29   around you. There's 3d stuff, which is still in the virtual world. And there's terms that Apple has

00:37:35   for these. I think it's I forget what the 2d stuff is. And it's volumes, I believe is what they call

00:37:40   the 3d stuff. And then there's immersive experiences, which is the way I suspect they've

00:37:45   implemented watching TV and stuff like that. And I don't know if I can put vision pro or excuse me,

00:37:51   I don't know if I can put a call sheet in an immersive experience, because generally speaking,

00:37:54   immersive experiences are kind of Singleton's, if you will, in that that is the only thing you're

00:38:00   doing at the time, but it's worth investigating. And even if that's true, you would want to be

00:38:04   able to just hop down out of your pretend movie theater and have call sheet waiting and look good

00:38:09   right then and there. Yeah. I also it occurred to me thinking about this as we wrap it up that

00:38:16   it is everybody. It's like the Louis C.K. bit about complaining about air airplane Wi Fi. And

00:38:28   it's you're flying across the country at 400 miles an hour, 40,000 feet up with a computer in your

00:38:36   hand and you're getting the internet in your hand. And yet you want to complain about how bad things

00:38:42   are. And it's like, I, I'm old enough, you're younger than me, but you I'm sure you remember

00:38:47   from childhood where if you wanted to know who an actor was tough luck, if you didn't know, right?

00:38:53   What were you going to do? Right? You there weren't even books, you know, like I remember

00:38:58   I have I still love it. I don't really refer to it, but it was a great book. But Roger Ebert had

00:39:04   Roger Ebert's great movies and he'd updated I don't know if it was every year, but every

00:39:08   couple years. And it was like super thick, hundreds and hundreds of pages with like short versions of

00:39:15   his reviews from all of these movies. And when you had like a decades long movie reviewing career,

00:39:22   just Roger E one, one critic whose taste I mostly agreed with his reviews of, I guess,

00:39:29   thousands of movies, but even there, it didn't list it would list like the stars,

00:39:33   right? Cary Grant and Ingrid Berg. But that didn't list like who played the bartender.

00:39:40   You know what I mean? You'd have to fast forward to the credits and ask your parents, but

00:39:44   that means you'd have to sit there and listen to the tape. You'd have to figure out how to get

00:39:49   back to where you were. Yeah. Never just jump ahead to the credits with the tape. No, it was

00:39:53   impossible. You you're just out of luck. You'd never know. Yep. And then the funny thing is my

00:39:58   dad was an audio file or is an audio file and he was a very technical technologically forward guy.

00:40:03   And we had a laser disc player in the house and that's all well and good because then you could

00:40:08   skip forward unless you're on the first half of the movie and the read head had to go and flip

00:40:14   over to the other side of the laser disc, which literally took 30 seconds. So you're watching a

00:40:18   movie halfway through the movie. It says the switching sides and the whole read apparatus

00:40:23   internal to the laser disc player has to go from the bottom to the top. It was a completely cockamamie

00:40:28   technology, but it was amazing. My uncle Jack, my mom's brother was, or it is, I should, again,

00:40:33   I shouldn't put him in the past yet, but he was the gadget head had, I forget what it was. It was

00:40:38   like a video game. I was so young. I mean, this would be like 1976 or seven or something. It was

00:40:44   before Atari 2,600 came out, but he had a video game that just played Pong, but you could play a

00:40:50   video game on my uncle Jack's TV. I was blown away. I mean, I'm like, Oh my God, how is this

00:40:55   possible? I'm controlling a rectangle on the TV. He had a laser disc player and I of course was

00:41:03   blown away by the quality, but it was so frustrating because my uncle Jack did not live

00:41:10   like he lived like, I don't know, an hour and a half away or something. So I'd see him a couple

00:41:14   times a year, but it wasn't like I got to live with his gadgetry. So I would get a taste of this

00:41:20   amazing stuff, video games on your TV, laser disc quality movies, and then go back home. And we

00:41:25   didn't even have a VCR yet. It was so funny with lasers player too, because it was such an unusual

00:41:31   gadget. And so my dad's favorite thing would, you know, when people would come over would be to hand

00:41:35   them the remote control and the remote control, the top three quarters of it looked like any other

00:41:40   remote control you'd find in the mid nineties or whatever it was early to mid nineties. But the

00:41:43   bottom had a full jog wheel on it, like a whole, almost like iPod style wheel. One of the cool

00:41:49   things about lasers, yeah, you could go frame by frame. So you could like seek forward and back,

00:41:55   and it would just blow people's minds when that happened. And I remember he always used to like

00:42:00   zoom to one of the fight scenes in Top Gun where the plane comes from behind and comes over you.

00:42:05   And you would hear the surround sound. This was like the world's crappiest surround sound in our

00:42:09   setup was not terribly remarkable, but nobody had their first round sound set up in the early 90s.

00:42:13   And so you would hear this plane come over your head and then you would go and like freeze frame

00:42:18   it. And it was such a dorky thing to do, but you know, this is how I come by and I come by it very

00:42:22   honestly. Yeah. My taste for the latest in technology began at birth, but I, my budget

00:42:29   didn't start until I got out of college. Right. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our

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00:45:13   All right, here we are 40 minutes in. Time to get to the year in review. I told you we should do,

00:45:17   told you I was right. Good thing we did. Good thing that we did call sheet first. I don't know

00:45:24   which way to do it. I don't know if we should go chronologically. I guess we usually go by month,

00:45:30   but I was thinking we could go by product. I guess it makes the most sense to just go through

00:45:33   the year and just mostly sticking to Apple stuff just because there's enough to cover.

00:45:41   Well, let me ask you sitting here now, not having gone through the litany of links that you and I

00:45:46   have pulled together, what is your overall like vibe check on 2023 for Apple? Like,

00:45:51   do you think this was a good year for them or do you think it was kind of meh? Where do you sit?

00:45:55   But then actually maybe we should revisit this at the end of the episode and see if you change your

00:45:59   mind. But where are you sitting now? That's a good question. I would say thumbs up. Let me say this.

00:46:07   I thought about this too. I mentioned Ebert in his book and I just read an article the other day. I

00:46:12   guess I should try to find it and put it in show notes, but it was something about how we collectively

00:46:17   miss Siskel and Ebert. Can you name any movie critics right now? No, absolutely not. I can't

00:46:24   off the top of my head either. And it's not to besmirch any working film critics. It's just that

00:46:31   Siskel and Ebert were so exceptional and just so famous. I mean, they were on like the Carson

00:46:38   show and Letterman all the time. Supposedly, I mean, I don't know if it's apocryphal or not,

00:46:42   but it's supposedly it's because of Siskel and Ebert that the Letterman set had two chairs next

00:46:47   to the desk instead of just one. Carson had a couch because Ed McMahon was always at the end

00:46:53   of the couch. And in his show, in the earlier years, the guests would stay on for the whole,

00:46:58   like the first guest would stay and you just slide down the couch and the new guests would come out.

00:47:02   But Letterman show didn't work like that. But supposedly he had two chairs because Siskel and

00:47:07   Ebert were on all the time. So they just- I did not know that. I don't know if that's true or not,

00:47:10   but it's a fun story. But unquestionably, they were an institution. If there was ever a use case

00:47:15   or case study in that turn of phrase that somebody is an in-s- or a group is an institution, I think

00:47:20   it's Siskel and Ebert 100%. I mean, they were an institution for sure. And they had the gist of the

00:47:26   article I'm thinking about. Again, I'm jotting this down to put it in the show notes. But that

00:47:31   they took movies seriously and they were astute film critics, but they also were not highfalutin

00:47:38   or literary. They knew why Steven Spielberg's movies were incredibly popular. And they weren't

00:47:45   to compare and contrast with Pauline Kael, who was the famed New Yorker film critic of the '70s. This

00:47:53   era when the Coppola and Scorsese and I guess Spielberg and Lucas first were in their 20s,

00:47:59   but becoming a name. I've read some of her reviews going back. And I guess Quentin Tarantino's a huge

00:48:06   fan. Supposedly his next, supposedly last movie, the film critic is sort of a Romana clef about her.

00:48:13   But it's- and I like the New Yorker. I subscribed to the New Yorker. But her approach to film

00:48:22   criticism was a little New Yorkery. If you know what I mean. Whereas Siskel and Ebert were like,

00:48:27   "Get some popcorn. Let's get some popcorn and a soda and watch Raiders of the Lost Ark. Not,

00:48:32   let's watch a Scandinavian art film that's black and white." Well, Das Boot is a pretty good action

00:48:40   movie. Did you say that? Is that what you said? Yeah, that is what I said. I actually haven't seen

00:48:44   it, which is funny because I'm such a complete dedicated fan of Hunt for October. And I actually

00:48:49   really like Crimson Tide as well. But I've never seen Das Boot. I think I watched a bit of it when

00:48:53   I was way too young to be able to put up with the subtitles and whatnot. I should give it another

00:48:57   shot. I used that. That should be your homework. I just tried. I just told you. I just was- I haven't

00:49:01   seen it in a long time. But Jonas was talking to me about the movie where Harrison Ford's the

00:49:07   president- Air Force One. Yes. Well, there's also Harrison Ford's sub movie. Was it like K19,

00:49:12   The Widowmaker or something like that? I forget what it was called. But yes, Air Force One was

00:49:15   actually with Gary Oldman that we were talking about earlier. Yes. But the director is Wolfgang

00:49:19   Peterson. And Jonas was like, "That movie was so much better than I thought it would be." And I

00:49:24   say, "It is a good movie." I haven't seen that one in a while either. I said, "Wolfgang Peterson's

00:49:29   masterpiece is Das Boot." I didn't realize it was him. Okay, fair enough. It is in German,

00:49:35   so you have to be able to put up with subtitles. And I love the- You've got the Hunt for Red October

00:49:40   as an Easter egg on the icon for Call Sheet. I'm a huge fan of that movie too. But I think Das Boot

00:49:45   is the submarine. That's fair. I think most people would agree with you. Yeah. But I don't know. But

00:49:50   where I'm going with the Cisco and the Ebert thing though is I think one under remarked upon aspect

00:49:58   of their phenomenal success with their TV show was their thumbs up, thumbs down system. Not five

00:50:07   stars, four stars, three stars, or letter grades like A, B, C, D. Just thumbs up, thumbs down. And

00:50:16   they didn't even have a thing in the middle like a wishy washy. It was okay. There was no okay.

00:50:22   They forced themselves to just say thumbs up or thumbs down. And then the best a movie could do

00:50:28   was if both of them gave it a thumbs up, it was two thumbs up. But if they disagreed,

00:50:34   the one who liked it couldn't overrule and say, "Well, I'm giving it both of my thumbs." So,

00:50:39   right? So, that's what I was thinking with Apple's year is instead of giving letter grades,

00:50:47   which I'll save for Jason Snell's report card. There's a place for that too for fine-grained,

00:50:52   pretty good, but not great. We just do thumbs up, thumbs down. I would say overall for Apple,

00:50:58   I would give it a thumbs up for the year, but I don't know why. So, it's funny. I'm looking at

00:51:04   the list of links that you had amassed and looking at it, I feel like I agree that the year is a

00:51:11   thumbs up. And I would probably say this without reservation, but I would have to think about it.

00:51:17   But what I will say is I think it becomes an emphatic thumbs up in the bottom half of the

00:51:22   year for me. Come iPhone 15, come a new MacBook Pros, M3 processor. I think I was still leaning

00:51:29   thumbs up even before all that, but particularly the bottom half to third or third to half of the

00:51:35   year is where it becomes an emphatic thumbs up. And I think it was a great year for Apple.

00:51:39   But up until, I think the first half of the year was kind of a snooze and we'll convince ourselves

00:51:44   we're wrong in the next few minutes. But I'm not that impressed with the beginning of the year.

00:51:48   And then WWDC and the Vision Pro announcement, okay, now we're starting to get somewhere. And

00:51:52   then the hardware that actually did launch in the tail end of the year, I think was excellent. I

00:51:55   mean, I'm talking to you on a M3 MacBook Pro and I am in love with this computer. I freaking adore

00:52:00   it. And same story with my iPhone. It's a great phone. And so I think bottom half of the year gets

00:52:04   me comfortably into a thumbs up, but I'd probably still do it even for the top half of the year too.

00:52:09   Ted

00:52:25   Except that the M2 MacBook Pros shipped in January. So technically, and I think that,

00:52:32   so we can just start in January and say Apple's January started with the M2 Pro and Mac's MacBook

00:52:40   Pros and what the Mac mini, I think, which I guess is still the current Mac mini. I believe

00:52:45   that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That was Apple's January. And I think in hindsight, I think we can just

00:52:54   sort of say, well, it's sort of downwind effects of COVID really and the lockdown and everything

00:53:01   else. Like in hindsight, it doesn't make any sense at all that they introduced M2 MacBook Pros in

00:53:11   January and then M3 MacBook Pros a full generation ahead in October, except that to think that those

00:53:20   M2 models were supposed to ship at least three or four months earlier, and it should have been a

00:53:26   2022 thing, not a 2023 thing, but they weren't going to scrap them. Right. Surely once Apple knew

00:53:35   that those machines weren't going to ship at the end of last year, they were going to ship early

00:53:42   2023. They also surely by that time knew that the M3 models were on scheduled to ship later this

00:53:50   year. And all things considered, it kind of sucks to buy a brand new MacBook Pro in January and have

00:53:58   it be a generation behind 10 months later. That almost harks back to the '80s and '90s of the PC

00:54:06   era, right? It was like infamous. And it was one thing that was true on the Mac and PC side. It

00:54:13   didn't matter which computer you bought. Six months later, it was slow. Right?

00:54:18   It's 100% accurate. I mean, that was when I was cutting my teeth and all this, and it was

00:54:22   absolutely true. It was instant. The moment you bought something, it was out of date and a piece

00:54:26   of crap. And it was exciting. It was a phenomenal time to be a fan of this sort of thing, but it was

00:54:32   also somewhat depressing because no matter what, you feel like a little bit of buyer's remorse

00:54:36   within a month of buying whatever it is you just bought. Yeah. You break the bank to get a computer

00:54:41   with a 40 megabyte hard disk. And six months later, it was cheaper to get an 80 megabyte hard

00:54:48   disk. And even 80 was so little. You can laugh, especially if you're younger, and think that

00:54:56   megabytes is a ridiculous number for a drive size. But it was all of us, everybody who was a computer

00:55:03   enthusiast, didn't matter which size drive you had, your drive was always 98% full because you

00:55:11   wished you'd have like today's size drives that are measured in terabytes instead of just skip

00:55:17   the gigabytes, just go right to terabyte. But it sort of harks back to that where it's like,

00:55:22   oh, you'd like to think you get a full year of being on the king of the hill. But I think those

00:55:29   M2 MacBook Pros were just downwind of delays from COVID and they weren't going to skip the whole

00:55:35   generation, but they wound up because they were late and the M3s, I guess, arrived on time,

00:55:41   they didn't have all that long in the sun. But the only other hardware Apple released in the first

00:55:48   half of the year were the yellow iPhone 14s. I mean, that's it, I think. It was slow. I can't

00:55:53   hope to go back a step just for a moment. I can't help but wonder, and this is based on no inside or

00:55:59   anything. If I were in Apple shoes and I'm looking at the three nanometer process for the M3 and

00:56:04   thinking, is this really going to land, especially since I'm beholden to TSMC to land it, I can't

00:56:11   help but wonder if they were looking in January and said, well, we could wait and just skip the

00:56:16   M2 for the MacBook Pro and roll the dice and just see how it works out for the M3. But knowing what

00:56:22   seems to have bled out from the supply chain, particularly around three nanometer, it seemed

00:56:27   like it was a very dodgy, not at all guarantee to land in this year, especially land not only for

00:56:33   Macs, but for iPhones too. So it wouldn't surprise me if they were like, well, let's get this out the

00:56:37   door just to play it safe, even though in a perfect world where we know exactly without a doubt when

00:56:41   the M3 lands, maybe we would just shelve it and wait. I don't know. It's just a guess, but it's

00:56:46   the end of reason. And maybe the other thing that the whole COVID experience taught all of us is

00:56:54   reminded us that unexpected things can always happen. And you know that it's all true. It's

00:57:00   the reason you buy life insurance is the reason you buy car insurance, reason you have homeowners

00:57:04   insurance or renters insurance. Everybody knows, well, bad things can happen. There could be

00:57:09   anything from weather to pandemic or war or something. I mean, people who listen to the show

00:57:15   in Ukraine, I'm sure, who four years ago did not expect to be where they are today.

00:57:21   Unexpected things happen. So you ship when you can, right? You don't do things like skip a

00:57:27   generation because, well, it's going to be late and we'll probably have these three nanometer ones,

00:57:31   which are actually, it's kind of a really significant update, right? It's an M2 to M3

00:57:36   is a bigger update than M2 was from M1. But it's not worth skipping, but sort of a dry first half

00:57:43   of the year. I mean, what else? Well, you know what? I think we both forgot something probably

00:57:47   because I've never owned one. And because you might actually be one of the few people left that

00:57:51   care. And I don't mean that to be a turd. I'm just saying the HomePod, the second gen HomePod was

00:57:56   end of January. I completely forgot about that, but that was also a thing.

00:57:59   I did not get to, I do own them. I ran out of time before we started recording, before I got to

00:58:07   other. All right. HomePod 2. So that's actually pretty good. I'll give that a thumbs up, right?

00:58:13   They're better than HomePod 1 in every single way. And resolved. It is funny that I did forget

00:58:23   about it. Because until then we were living in a sort of mystery world of did Apple abandon the

00:58:31   regular HomePods, right? There was the pretty long stretch when they discontinued the originals.

00:58:36   But then they did have a HomePod mini, but there was nothing, the only HomePods. So that alone

00:58:45   seemed to suggest that they would bring back the HomePod. But on the other hand,

00:58:51   they did introduce the HomePod mini before they canceled the regular HomePod. And so what were

00:58:57   they going to do? Rename it? Even if their plan actually was, we're never going to make a full

00:59:02   size HomePod again, it's these minis all the way. I still, there's no way they were going to rename

00:59:08   the product in the middle of the generation. I'm glad they're still making HomePods. I think

00:59:13   they're very good under underrated products. Then the second generation is nothing but better than

00:59:19   the first in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I've never actually owned any of them.

00:59:24   And my exposure and experience to them is mostly through Marco and he has gone back and forth on

00:59:30   loving them, hating and loving them, hating them. I think we're currently in a hate valley if you

00:59:34   will, for him at the moment. But yeah, cause he just bought like thousands of dollars worth of

00:59:40   Sonos shit. Yeah. That's my people. That's where I am now is I'm all in on the Sonos ecosystem.

00:59:45   But no, I mean, I agree with you though, even if it's not for me, I still think it's a cool and

00:59:50   good product for Apple to have. And I like when they have these sort of hobby products. And I

00:59:56   think even though I don't personally want them to think of the Apple TV that way, I think maybe they

01:00:00   do, but I think it's nice for them to kind of experiment a little bit in a responsible way,

01:00:05   as opposed to Google experiments in a very irresponsible way.

01:00:09   Yeah. I still, I have them as my home theater hooked up to my TV. I care much more about the

01:00:16   picture quality. I'm more of, I don't know. I don't think I have garbage ears. I like,

01:00:21   and whenever I take hearing tests at my annual physical, I do fine. I hear all the beeps and I

01:00:27   hate those tests. Oh my God. Those, you know what I mean? Like where they put the headset on you and

01:00:31   they're like raise the hand of the ear. You hear it in I'm like, was there a beep there? I don't

01:00:35   know. Oh, geez. Well, and I've still, I was always the type of student who never did any studying

01:00:46   and never tried to do as little homework as possible. But yet also once the test started,

01:00:54   wanted to get the highest score in the class, right? So a very strange combination of

01:01:01   factors, but I feel that same way with things like eye exams and hearing tests, whereas I want to

01:01:08   score a hundred, not because I I'm going to get a sticker or something, but I don't know. I don't

01:01:13   want to lose. I don't want to lose my hearing, but you give me a test. I want to ACE it. I don't

01:01:18   care what the test is. It doesn't matter. It's like an instinctual. I hate that, but we've got

01:01:24   the home pods and it's a very, I think they sound very good to me. And I'm sure that even I could

01:01:30   hear much better sound from a bigger, more speaker system, but they absolutely sound like more than

01:01:38   two speakers. It's pretty good. And anything truly exorbitant isn't going to fly with the designer

01:01:48   in chief of our living room. Right? And so the visual minimalism of two white home pods in our

01:01:57   mostly white and light gray living room gets a two thumbs up from the designer in chief

01:02:04   of our living room. Anything more, probably not. And a lot more like I remember asking

01:02:11   when we first got our living room designed and did all this, I was, I asked Marco for some

01:02:18   suggestions on speakers and didn't, the price wasn't the factor. It was what they looked like

01:02:25   was like, no, no way. He sent me like something four feet tall and it's no, that's yeah. I mean,

01:02:31   my wife thought that I was joking and I was like, no, Marco, Marco says it sounds awesome. So

01:02:37   anyway, the home pods, I liked them as, and I know some people have terrible problems keeping them

01:02:42   from falling out of pair or whatever. For me, they really do just work knock on wood,

01:02:50   but it's been great. And it's also the fact that I watch TV pretty late. I mean,

01:02:57   it's almost all of my TV watching is later at night and Amy typically our routine is that she

01:03:03   falls asleep on the couch next to me. So there's a maximum limit to the volume that I can use and

01:03:08   the base, right? Like I'm not going to be able to get away with kick ass movie theater, THX quality

01:03:16   base rumbling. So for what I do, it's pretty good. So I'm, I was very happy that they did that. I'm

01:03:21   glad you remembered that, that they announced it. I give them a thumbs up for sticking with it.

01:03:25   Now there's rumors as we look ahead, there's rumors that they're going to do like a screen

01:03:30   or something. That has no appeal. I get it because why not have a screen and so, you know, like in a

01:03:40   kitchen or something. And we have them in our kitchen too, but I don't know. I never look at

01:03:44   it. That to me seems like it has to be a brand new product because there are certain cases where you

01:03:50   want a home pod, a screen would be a complete waste of money. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I've never

01:03:55   had any of like the echo shows or I forget what the Google equivalent is, but it's never been for

01:04:01   me. And I'm not to say that, I mean, I can fathom why it would be nice, but I don't think I personally

01:04:08   want a glowing screen in my kitchen always on all the time. That's just not my cup of tea. I

01:04:14   obviously, I think Apple would do a good job of it. And I think that they could be very clever

01:04:18   about it, but it's just, I agree with you. That's not a, that's solving a problem I don't think I

01:04:23   have, but then again, Apple often solves problems that I didn't realize I had. So we'll see. But

01:04:29   yeah, I agree with you. I don't really have much else from the pre WWDC. Do you?

01:04:34   It was in March when who was it? Was it Joanna and Nicole? They dropped the shoulder surfing

01:04:43   passcode stealing phones thing that happened in March and 10 years of ATP was in March just to

01:04:49   plug us for a moment. So that was a big accomplishment, but yeah, other than that,

01:04:53   so the announcement of final cut pro and logic pro for our new, I still think of ATP is your new

01:04:58   podcast. I know. Right. Isn't that wild? It's 10 years. I mean, I had zero children when ATP

01:05:03   started. Now I have two, but anyways, final cut pro and logic pro for iPad were announced in May.

01:05:09   So there's that. So that's a good one. And right. I mean, that's worth taking a pause to talk about

01:05:15   because to me, it's not because I use either app. I don't edit the show, so I don't use logic and I

01:05:23   don't edit videos. So I don't use final cut, but it's symbolic in terms of those two apps really

01:05:31   stuck out as the canonical examples of the whole debate is it does that is Apple doing right by the

01:05:41   iPad as a serious platform for professionals to use as their main computer. One of the arguments

01:05:48   against it was, well, for God's sake, even Apple doesn't put their pro apps on the iPad. Right. I

01:05:53   mean, it really was. It was how is this a pro computer if even Apple doesn't make pro apps for

01:05:59   it? Well, now they do. And by all accounts of people who do use them and know what the hell

01:06:03   they're talking about, they're pretty good. Yeah. Everything I've understood is that they

01:06:08   are pretty good. I think I've never used logic. I don't edit any of the shows I'm on,

01:06:12   but I've used final cut pro reasonable amount on the desktop. I've never, I never played with it

01:06:17   on the iPad because it's not really a need. I have to me, if I'm going to do any sort of video

01:06:22   editing, I'm going to be on a computer. I'm going to be with as much screen real estate as I can get.

01:06:27   That being said, I really appreciate the fact that they finally clipped off this low hanging fruit.

01:06:33   They've muted all of these arguments. Like you were saying that, Oh, well,

01:06:36   Apple clearly doesn't care because they're not even doing their own stuff.

01:06:38   And I've understood that final cut pro is good. It's certainly not full featured. It's not a one

01:06:44   to one equivalent. I forget which way you can go, but you can go like from the, from the iPad to the

01:06:49   desktop, but you can't go desktop to iPad, I think, or something along those lines, which is

01:06:53   a bit of a bummer, but I can understand it, especially when you start talking plugins and

01:06:56   this and that and the other thing, but just the fact that it's there does to your point show a

01:07:01   renewed or perhaps new found interest from Apple in trying to show that the iPad can be more than

01:07:08   just a toy. And I, I, I love my iPad, but I do personally consider it more toy than not.

01:07:15   And I would really love, especially with vision pro coming down the line and vision pro to my eyes,

01:07:20   being very much based on iPadOS. I would love to see them take iPad more seriously. And this

01:07:26   is a step in the right direction for sure. Yeah. I don't think they, I don't think it was easy.

01:07:31   Right. It's it's not, I mean, I know it wasn't right. There's no way that it was easy to take

01:07:36   two Mac apps because there is no, there's no reverse catalyst. Right. There's no,

01:07:41   you know, but in theory, you know, some kind of, you know, in theory, Apple could do some kind of

01:07:48   app kit on iPadOS, but they're not going to for reasons. I don't think anybody expects them to,

01:07:56   I think more people are worried that app kit has a long-term future, even on the Mac then vice versa.

01:08:03   So there was no porting toolkit. There wasn't any kind of, Oh, they, they made a new version of X

01:08:10   code that could take a serious long-standing professional app kit, Mac app, and get it onto

01:08:17   the iPad. It was all work, actual work. Jonas uses final cut because he he's into video as I would be

01:08:25   if I were his age. I, when I was his age, I thought maybe I would make movies or something.

01:08:30   I was very interested in filmmaking in college. So I don't blame him. They are not done that. They

01:08:35   don't blame him, but I see his interest, but he uses it on both and I've asked him. And so for him

01:08:42   and his use of final cut, I don't think he runs into the superset. Like he can go back and forth

01:08:49   between his iPad pro and his MacBook pro and doesn't run into whatever the limits are where

01:08:56   the Mac is a superset. But yeah, I would say that honestly, the other thing we might as well just

01:09:03   say it's the highlight of the iPad for the year. Right? I mean, cause the only other thing there,

01:09:09   oddly there was no iPad hardware, right? Yeah, that's true. Not even the mini or anything like

01:09:14   that. I don't know. Nothing. Nope, nothing. Everything. Hold on, John. Let's not besmirch

01:09:20   the Apple pencil with USB-C. I mean, come on, man. That is the exception is yet another Apple pencil

01:09:26   with USB-C, which I'm making fun of in tone, but I understand, I guess the only thing I don't

01:09:34   understand is why last year's 10th generation iPad was that what's the one that used the Apple

01:09:44   pencil one and they had to make a new, they had to make a new adapter for it. So they didn't make

01:09:50   a new pencil. They made a new adapter because the iPad had USB-C built for the future, but the Apple

01:09:57   pencil one charges and pairs as a lightning that you just stick into the side of the iPad,

01:10:05   sort of like a popsicle stick. I understand why it is that way, but I don't understand why they,

01:10:10   how they painted themselves. It clearly painted themselves into a pencil corner. Right? I mean,

01:10:16   it's so true. Anyway, I've been ahead of ourselves though, cause that was like October or something

01:10:21   like that. So yeah, well, just to go by product category though, there wasn't really much else

01:10:26   for iPad for the year. I mean, that was it. Anything else from your list for the pre June

01:10:32   WWDC? This was in April GM said, Oh, we're not going to do carplay anymore. And we're still

01:10:38   seeing a little bit of the ripples from that now. That was that long ago. Geez. Yeah, I know. I

01:10:43   didn't realize either. I think this is bananas. I think this is utterly bananas and I'm a devout car

01:10:48   play person for me. I would not buy a car without carplay because no matter how great, and I think

01:10:55   there are some exceptions here, like modern electric cars, like Teslas and Rivians, you

01:11:00   could make an argument that they'll continue to be updated and continually get better and so on and

01:11:05   so forth. But the thing that you run into is even if the software gets better, the hardware is the

01:11:09   hardware in a car, right? My wife's car, she's a Volvo SUV. And I like actually like her infotainment

01:11:16   leaving aside the car play parts. Her infotainment is good, but the processor in her car is clearly

01:11:21   underpowered and it's never going to get better. It's never ever going to get better. And one of

01:11:26   the great things about carplay is not only does the software get better, but as you change phones,

01:11:31   the hardware gets better too. And so for me, I wouldn't even consider a car without carplay.

01:11:36   I mean, I didn't when we bought our cars in the late tens because we bought hers in 17,

01:11:40   mine in 18. And I still wouldn't consider a car without carplay. I personally, for me,

01:11:45   that's bananas. And so for GM to say, we're not going to support carplay anymore. Well,

01:11:49   guess what? I'm not supporting GM. Well, I mean, I wasn't already, but you know what I mean? Like,

01:11:53   I'm not supporting GM anymore. Cause even though like my parents have a Chevy Bolt EV,

01:11:57   which is great. It's genuinely a very great car. It's not fancy, but it's a great car.

01:12:01   And if I needed an EV right now, I would think about it, except they just canceled it. But even

01:12:06   still, I wouldn't get one without carplay. The whole thing sort of exemplifies like the weird

01:12:11   current status of GM, right? Like the Bolt, I I've never driven one either, but I have heard

01:12:18   nothing but good things about the Bolt. Right. It is. And GM is overall ahead of most car brands on

01:12:28   electric vehicles, which is clearly the future, right? I mean, isn't it the case that like even

01:12:33   Honda who I love as a company, I, my beloved 2006 Accurate TL does not have carplay being from 2006,

01:12:43   but Honda had to go to GM to like get electric vehicles. So there's rebranded GM vehicles with

01:12:49   the Honda badge, but like a GM interior, Syracuse was talking about it on ATP reasons. Yeah. Maybe

01:12:55   all the Japanese marks. I don't think because Lexus is in a similar boat. Right. And no Nissan

01:13:00   did the leaf. So Nissan complete disaster, but Subaru, same story. I think that's a re rebranded

01:13:06   something else. It's utterly bananas to me that the Japanese were caught. So flat or the Japanese

01:13:10   car companies were caught so flat footed with EVs and they don't seem to be catching up that

01:13:15   quickly. It's great. And they had Toyota had the Prius, which was ahead of its time. It's like,

01:13:20   but also really was kind of goofy looking. Right. I mean, it was like very much so. I don't know.

01:13:27   And I honestly, in a way that in the sort of in the inverse of the way that Tesla moved electric

01:13:34   vehicles forward. I mean, say what you want about the owner of the company. There's no doubt that

01:13:39   the existence of and success and popularity of Tesla and the fact that the people who buy them

01:13:45   overall seem very happy with them, even though they're like, ah, who cares about the panel gaps?

01:13:49   It's blank. There's other things that they love about them. I think the Prius set electric vehicles

01:13:54   back because people who were skeptical were like thinking that they were like little putt putt

01:14:01   golf cars. Well, then here's the one, the most famous one. It kind of was a putt putt golf car.

01:14:07   Right. And it's no, the truth is electric vehicles go like hell, like the entry model Tesla, you put

01:14:14   the pedal down and it, you know, it's bananas. It's bananas. They're crazy how fast they go.

01:14:19   So like if you're sort of a red meat and beer American, you know, I want my car to go real fast,

01:14:27   which I am. I love driving fast. Same, same electric vehicles are what you want,

01:14:31   but the Prius kind of set it back. I don't know. But then you hear GM has this car that was renowned

01:14:36   the bolt and then they canceled it. Yep. It's just bananas. And the bolt actually from zero to

01:14:41   30 miles an hour is fairly quick to your point. Now, once you get above 30, it's real slow,

01:14:46   real fast, but, but, but you know, that buying a bolt, right? It's zero to 30 is more important

01:14:51   than 30 to 60. Exactly. Exactly. I agree. I agree. So yeah, I don't know. We don't need to

01:14:57   persevere on it, but it's just, it's bananas to me that this is the direction GM is going. And to

01:15:00   your point, they were doing pretty well and had a lead over a lot of these other, especially foreign

01:15:07   manufacturers. And I feel like they're just shooting themselves in the foot left and right.

01:15:10   It's just bananas. I do. I don't know. I think the most telling aspect and again, Joanna Stern,

01:15:16   she had the, I forget his name, the CEO of Ford and she asked him and it was so,

01:15:20   it made me like the guy. Cause you just don't see CEOs do stuff like this. He laughed.

01:15:25   And he was like, yeah, we're not getting rid of CarPlay. Our, our owners love CarPlay. And

01:15:30   you know, this, I know this, everybody knows it. And I'm sure GM is hearing it right. Like the

01:15:34   nature, the nature of everybody other than Tesla who sells direct is that the real customers for

01:15:40   GM are their dealers and the dealers sell to the customers. And it's the dealers who know how many

01:15:47   people come in. And as Apple loves to quote the percentage of new car buyers in the U S who

01:15:53   consider CarPlay a must have is astonishing. It's I don't know, it's 80% or something like that.

01:15:59   And it's bananas compared to iPhone ownership, which is like 51% because it's new car buyers

01:16:06   and new cars are more expensive and iPhone owners tend to have more money. And so yes,

01:16:10   there's 80% of new car buyers consider CarPlay a must have. I saw, I still wouldn't be surprised.

01:16:17   I wouldn't be surprised if GM backtracks on this. Cause it's not like they're not Apple,

01:16:21   right? Apple would just start shipping cars without X. They wouldn't pre-announce it.

01:16:27   GM announced it. I wouldn't be surprised if this never actually comes to pass.

01:16:30   Trenton Larkin No, I agree. And I mean,

01:16:32   I think the thing of it is, is that it could work for GM if they become a software company

01:16:36   really freaking fast. Cause there's an argument that Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, they're just software

01:16:41   companies that happen to have a car to run their software. And I don't see a company as old as GM

01:16:48   being to pivot that quickly to becoming a software company. I mean, anything is possible, but man,

01:16:53   I'd eat my shoe cause I don't think it's going to happen.

01:16:55   Trenton Larkin Anything else from before WWDC?

01:16:59   Trenton Larkin One final thing that means nothing to me,

01:17:01   and I don't mean that to be snarky, but I suspect will mean something to you. A marathon was

01:17:05   announced in May. And I presume that that means something for you because this is way before my

01:17:10   Mac time. Trenton Larkin

01:17:12   Yeah, but it's like a new marathon and I don't play games anymore, but I'm glad the franchise still

01:17:17   is being resuscitated because I do love the franchise. I would consider as an old school

01:17:23   Mac user, consider it the marathon cinematic universe, not the Halo cinematic universe.

01:17:31   But I, and I had an Xbox, this is where Syracuse and I overlap in so many ways, but then when we

01:17:39   depart significantly. So like I bought the first generation Xbox cause I was still playing video

01:17:45   games like in the very late nineties, early two thousands and liked it a lot. And you know, one

01:17:51   of the deciding factors for me to buy the Xbox instead of whatever the PlayStation of that era

01:17:56   was, was knowing that I wanted to play Halo because I liked marathon so much. And at the

01:18:04   time it was a recent memory and I was exactly right. I, you know, and I've since gotten out

01:18:09   of all games, so I don't know how much the modern versions of Halo still feel the same, but as a

01:18:14   diehard marathon user from the mid to end of the nineties on the Mac, Halo on Xbox was like, Oh,

01:18:21   I understand all of this. And it sorta takes place in the same universe. I forget if it's like in a

01:18:26   different century or it's definitely a different planet and I maybe destiny is, I don't know. I

01:18:31   don't, I that's again, this is where Syracuse and I diverge. He still plays video games seriously and

01:18:38   I don't. So I don't know, but the new marathon is sort of different, I guess. I don't know,

01:18:42   but it's not out yet. So it was only announced. Yeah. I don't even know if it's like a 2024 thing.

01:18:47   I think it was like Grand Theft Auto where whatever the date was, it was far. Yeah. I

01:18:51   saw that too recently where the Grand Theft Auto is, man, this looks amazing. And then at the end,

01:18:55   they're like coming in 2029 or something. I'm like, what are you talking about? It was nuts.

01:19:01   All right. Then WWDC time. All right. So hardware is the 15 inch M2 MacBook Air.

01:19:09   I guess that was the only hardware of WWDC. Well, in vision pro ish. I mean, obviously

01:19:14   right now launch launch, but in right one released one announced, do we get, do we get a finally on

01:19:19   either of those? I ask kind of snarkily snarky kind of not, I would say definitely a finally on

01:19:26   the big consumer laptop, right? It was as big, I guess it doesn't appeal to as many people,

01:19:32   but it was the two things Apple never made were big screen laptops in the consumer range and a

01:19:40   big screen phone in the consumer range, right? The big screen and the iPhone pro era was always

01:19:47   the max models are only at, and they're super expensive. They start at like $1,100.

01:19:51   You don't have to look at the spreadsheets in front of Tim Cook's desk to guess why, right? It

01:19:58   was because they knew some people would buy the biggest screen because people, some people love

01:20:04   big devices and having the Mac book with big screen start at $2,500 was good for Apple. But

01:20:13   it's kind of crazy comparing the Mac market to the PC market in that regard, where if your budget is

01:20:21   lower and you don't, you know, or even if it's not about budget, but just your needs, if you're like,

01:20:25   I'm not a professional Mac user, I just need something good and reliable. The fact that you

01:20:32   could only get 13 inch laptops in the non-pro Mac books was conspicuous. So I would say finally,

01:20:39   yeah, I think they should have done it long ago. I don't, and the only explanation for it

01:20:44   is that they thought they made more money by keeping them as pro models, but there's rumors,

01:20:51   you know, we never know how much each particular model sells. I guess the consensus is that the M2

01:20:57   Mac book air isn't that big a seller, but I don't know. I find that hard. I don't think it's going

01:21:04   to be like the iPhone mini where they try it for a year or two and they're like, ah, this didn't sell

01:21:09   that well. We're going to abandon the form factor. I think it's here to stay. And I don't think it's

01:21:14   surprising that it doesn't sell as well as the 13 inch models. Cause I think that's what most

01:21:19   consumers want in a laptop is value, the portability, the weight, the backpack size,

01:21:25   but I can't help but think it might do, it might be doing better than the general consensus thinks

01:21:30   it is. Yeah, I agree with you top to bottom. And this to me feels like very much in the spirit of

01:21:35   Final Cut Pro and Logic for the iPad where whether or not this is a real profit center for Apple,

01:21:41   it makes sense as a product to have. And even though I think a lot of their products,

01:21:45   like the pencil, like the iPad have gotten a little bit too diverse at this point. I still

01:21:50   think having a big consumer laptop that is reasonably affordable just makes sense. And

01:21:56   there's so many people like my dad, as we spoke about earlier, still kicking, still with it,

01:22:01   still likes technology. And he recently, instead of getting a MacBook pro, he recently got a MacBook

01:22:07   Air. And although he did get the 13 inch, he is the kind of buyer that I think this would be good

01:22:13   for, especially as his eyes get worse at 70 plus years old, that he doesn't need a MacBook Pro. He

01:22:18   used to get it because the consumer laptops were fairly well neutered, particularly in the Intel

01:22:22   era. At this point, he doesn't have any need for a MacBook Pro, but there may come a time he might

01:22:28   want a bigger screen if nothing else. So he can crank the font size on everything up a little bit.

01:22:32   And so on account of that, I could totally see him the next time he gets a laptop getting a,

01:22:36   you know, 15 inch MacBook Air. And I think that's just one of many different examples that prove the

01:22:40   same thing that, yeah, maybe it isn't selling gangbusters, but I think it definitely has a

01:22:45   place in the lineup. And I think it makes sense more so, I would argue, than the iPhone mini. And

01:22:50   I know that will offend a lot of iPhone mini people, but I think it makes a lot more sense

01:22:53   than the mini. Yeah, and I didn't buy a mini, but I was so close. And that was the year,

01:23:00   I regret that I didn't buy one because I bought the non-pro iPhone. I bought the iPhone 12

01:23:06   regular size in black because I thought it looked better. I just, I still think it looked better.

01:23:11   And I liked the glossy backside. And it was the year when buying the iPhone was mid lockdown

01:23:20   and vaccines weren't out. And I thought, well, if there's ever a year where I place less value

01:23:26   on the quality of the camera system, it's this year when for the rest-

01:23:31   I've been staring at his four walls.

01:23:33   Right.

01:23:33   Four walls all year long.

01:23:34   You know, and I was hopeful and I was correct that by the next summertime,

01:23:39   vacations and travel would be a thing again. I thought, well, but by that time, I'll only have

01:23:46   months to go before next year's models. And it was true. So I didn't regret it, but I wish I would

01:23:50   have bought the mini just so I could say I had one. But I agree if Apple, well, they are going

01:23:57   to do this. There's no if about it, but their whole- we're the only company that makes the

01:24:02   products for our platforms. All of our OSs only run on our hardware and our hardware

01:24:08   only runs our OSs. We make the whole shebang. I think they're sort of obligated to sort of

01:24:15   fill in the gaps. I think it was a failure of some sorts that they never offered consumer level

01:24:22   MacBooks in a bigger than 13 inch size. And every time I say that, somebody will say that there was

01:24:27   a 14 inch iBook back in the day. But that didn't really qualify as a big laptop. I guess it's the

01:24:36   closest they came though. So there was, it was like a 12 inch iBook and a 14 inch iBook. So there

01:24:41   was a brief stretch where the iBooks came in two sizes, but they never had one 15 or 16 inches

01:24:47   before. And now they do. And I think they should, if they're going to be the only company that makes

01:24:51   Mac laptops, there should be more than one size. I mean, I don't think that's too much to ask.

01:24:56   - Nope, I completely agree. - What else? Vision Pro and WWDC.

01:25:02   - Before we get to Vision Pro, was the M2 Max and Ultra, that was June, but was that WWDC?

01:25:08   - Oh yeah, that was WWDC too. So what am I talking about? Yeah, that was the other hardware WWDC. I'm

01:25:13   sure that there are people listening to this who've been going nuts for the last five minutes that I

01:25:18   insinuated that there was no other hardware. No, speaking of finalies, we finally got the Mac Pro.

01:25:24   Yeah, here we go, June. So the M2 Max and Ultra, Mac Studio and Mac Pro, finally. So that's even

01:25:32   more of a finally than a 15 inch. Well, no, maybe not, because they did make Mac Pros.

01:25:37   They never made a 15 inch MacBook Air. Kind of a disappointment, right? I mean,

01:25:43   I know you guys covered this to extraordinary length, to your everlasting pleasure on ATP.

01:25:49   - Yes, yes, that's it. No, it is a disappointment. I don't know. It's funny because I don't

01:25:54   care. I don't ever see myself as a buyer of a Mac Pro, but I do subscribe to Syracuse's

01:26:03   Halo car point of view that it makes sense for Apple to have this Halo car that they can point

01:26:11   to and say, "Look what we can do." And you guys were talking about this actually on the episode

01:26:15   that you recorded, that the Mac Pro today, I don't think they're really flexing all their muscles.

01:26:22   And I think if they let themselves really go hog wild, it could and would be a truly competitive

01:26:29   computer. And it's just not right now. It's a Mac Studio with a bunch of space for IO, which,

01:26:34   sure, for a small group of people, that's important, perhaps do or die sort of scenario,

01:26:39   but it's not a lot of people. And although I'm in support of them having done the whole lineup,

01:26:43   and I'm glad they did it so Jon can stop fretting constantly about what's going to happen,

01:26:47   it was a disappointment, I think, even to me. And I'm never going to buy one of these.

01:26:52   Yeah, I don't want to rehash it because Syracuse and I talked about it last week, but it really is,

01:26:56   I mean, there's no denying it. It's the same because the system on a chip so defines the modern

01:27:01   Apple Silicon Macs that having the exact same systems on a chip as the Mac Studio,

01:27:05   I don't think it's unfair at all to say that it is exactly what you just said. It is a Mac Studio

01:27:11   in a 10 times bigger case that really that extra space is really only used for IO. So if your needs

01:27:18   are IO and the Mac Studio, you're bursting at the seams on a Mac Studio with IO needs, then yes,

01:27:27   you're happy. But that's the whole Mac Pro market, let's say, like from the last generation Intel

01:27:34   ones, or a hypothetical future Mac Pro that really does far exceed the Mac Studio in numerous ways.

01:27:43   That market is always going to be a niche, right? But based on price, based on how many people really

01:27:51   need the Halo car of computers, it's a small segment of the Mac user base. And then to say

01:27:58   that this one really only exceeds the Mac Studio in the one regard of IO is a niche within a niche,

01:28:05   right? The fact that they still released it though, to me, is a sign that it's like putting a

01:28:15   flag in the ground and they're saying, they weren't going to say, okay, yeah, this is a

01:28:20   disappointment. But to me, my Cupertino-ology reading between the lines is we had to ship

01:28:29   something just to show that the Mac Pro isn't dead and we're serious about it.

01:28:34   Standby for future generations. Whether that's going to be this next year or the year after,

01:28:39   who knows? But assuming they plan to have a Mac Pro that's worthy of the name,

01:28:48   meaning it far exceeds the capabilities in more than one direction than a Mac Studio,

01:28:53   it was untenable to keep selling the last generation Intel one, right? So what were they

01:29:00   going to do? Keep selling the Intel one? Take it off the market? Get rid of the Mac Pro for

01:29:05   a gap of a few years? This to me is the best way forward to at least make some users happy.

01:29:11   And again, for the serious video pros who are pushing enormous amounts of 8K video around and

01:29:18   need the IO, they're happy, right? So make somebody happy. I think the best case scenario is a bespoke

01:29:25   chip for it. But if that is not in the cards and not on the table, then yes, I agree with you. At

01:29:29   least showing you care enough to do something is a good sign. Yeah, I think that's it other than

01:29:34   Vision Pro. So I mean, you've got way more time with the Vision Pro than me. So what do you think?

01:29:39   Tom Scott (01:01): I'm still excited, but at this point, it's like,

01:29:44   let's get on with it, right? You, you are actually, you are just talked before that you're already

01:29:50   working on call sheet for Vision OS and you and Marco together went to the developer labs. I know

01:29:56   you and I both have a bunch of developer friends. I know others who've done it. When it's a new

01:30:01   platform like the watch or whatever, there is no Osborne effect to worry about. Apple can

01:30:07   pre-announce a headset and the only sales they might hurt because people are waiting for it are

01:30:12   from companies like Meta, who I'm sure it breaks Apple's heart if Meta sold fewer Quest 3s than

01:30:20   they would have otherwise, even though it's, you know, price-wise it's sort of by definition,

01:30:25   a different market, but it's sort of like, how much can we say? I don't know. I think Apple,

01:30:28   by calling it spatial computing and sort of presenting it as being on the level

01:30:36   to this new concept of spatial computing, what the 1984 Mac was to GUI, graphical user interface

01:30:46   computing or desktop computing. I don't know what meant, what they would call it. That's

01:30:50   where they're positioning it and the way that they would position at the time in 2007. And I think in

01:30:57   hindsight, the iPhone is the first modern cell phone. They're presenting this as that level of

01:31:04   platform, right? It is not like the HomePod or AirPods. It's not an other, like a wearable.

01:31:11   It is a, in their mind, a computing platform for the future. And this is only the first one.

01:31:20   Having used it three times, WWDC and then two demos in New York in recent months for the spatial

01:31:27   video where I got to see some of theirs, and then I went back up and got to see my own video

01:31:32   that I shot over Thanksgiving and in the weeks afterwards. The demos I've gotten have been more

01:31:39   like entertainment oriented, right? Using it as an entertainment device. They haven't let me do

01:31:44   things like work, right? Which would be weird to do in a controlled demo anyway.

01:31:49   Sure.

01:31:50   But I see the potential. I really, really do. But it's just hard to speculate going at this point,

01:31:56   how serious it would be and whether can I personally envision going to WWDC 2027 and

01:32:03   only taking my Vision Pro and a keyboard instead of my MacBook? Probably not, but I could imagine

01:32:11   some people would, right? It's sort of in a way that I don't, I can't imagine only using my iPad

01:32:18   or taking my iPad on a trip like that where I plan to work just because my personal workflow is so

01:32:25   Mac specific. But I could imagine that for the many millions of people who do use their iPads

01:32:30   like that, I think the Vision Pro could be super compelling in that way.

01:32:35   Yeah, I agree. And I mean, we were under extraordinarily strict NDAs, not to discuss

01:32:40   the time that we spent in lab, but even before that event, I can tell you that as someone who

01:32:47   likes going to like a library or a cafe or what have you in order to get work done from time to

01:32:52   time, the thought of having a 4K screen that is physically the size of a headset, that's extremely

01:33:00   compelling. And if I can suck my Mac into the Vision Pro, and then perhaps I'm using the Vision

01:33:06   Pro or effectively iPadOS versions of Slack and Safari and whatnot, and all this is scattered

01:33:11   around my laptop screen, leaving aside the fact that it'll look like a total doofus being at the

01:33:15   library with this thing on my face. I can see how it would be extremely cooler in a plane.

01:33:20   I got to imagine that if you were able to watch a movie in relative isolation between your AirPods

01:33:28   and the Vision Pro, I mean, what better way to pass the time on a plane if you're not going to

01:33:33   get work done than watching a 400-foot or whatever screen with spatial audio in your ears and noise

01:33:39   canceling? I mean, I can imagine how it would be extremely compelling, but my word is it expensive.

01:33:44   I mean, starting at $3,500, oof. That's a lot of money.

01:33:46   Yeah. Do you think it's going to be the sort of product where they're going to have good,

01:33:52   better, and best? They've only said... The only thing they've said is starting at $3,500. And

01:33:58   they haven't talked about anything like storage, because that's how Apple typically tears pricing.

01:34:06   There's, "Oh, entry level as 256 gigabytes of storage or five... I don't know. For $3,500,

01:34:13   I better have more than 256." But it's Apple, right? I say that, but would you be shocked if

01:34:19   it was actually only 128? No, I would not.

01:34:22   You had to pay $4,000 to get it a terabyte? I would not.

01:34:27   My gut reaction is that it'll be like the Apple TV where there's two or maybe three storage tiers

01:34:34   and they call it a day. My brain, as I reason through it intellectually, I think it would be

01:34:39   more akin to an iPad where... Not to say that it'll have cellular, but maybe you have a couple of

01:34:45   different storage tiers. Maybe not the first generation, but at some point maybe you have

01:34:51   an M3 Pro or M3 Max. I mean, if this really is going to be a work computer, it could stand to

01:34:59   reason that you would want to delineate and differentiate the different processors. I

01:35:03   certainly don't think that'll be the case in a couple of months or whenever it is it comes out.

01:35:06   But I could see a future where that's a thing. I could also imagine them maybe doing not a bundle,

01:35:13   because that seems beneath Apple, but I can't think of a better word for it. But maybe you get

01:35:17   a Vision Pro or you can get a Vision Pro and a couple of battery packs or what have you,

01:35:20   or something like that. Or a couple of light shields if... I don't know. I guess I don't know

01:35:24   why you would need more than one. But maybe some sort of bundle-like thing where you get a small

01:35:30   deal. I don't know. I guess it's not really Apple's shtick giving a deal for anything.

01:35:35   But... No, it's not.

01:35:36   No. So I take that all back, I guess. But I don't know. I do think some sort of good, better, best,

01:35:41   or better, best, perfect, or what have you. I do think that will be in the future. I think they're

01:35:46   certainly leaving the space for it now. But it also would not surprise me at all if they said,

01:35:50   "Hey, it's $3,500. You get a terabyte of space and that's that. Be happy."

01:35:54   Yeah. I kind of hope they do. I think that would be neat for the first generation and let that

01:35:59   different price ranges for different models happen as they expand. I mean,

01:36:03   calling it Vision Pro... Again, you don't even have to be an expert Cupertino-ologist to read

01:36:09   between the lines that they're saying, "In the future, there will be non-Pro Vision headsets."

01:36:15   Right? It's Apple's way of saying just in the name of the product alone, "We know this is crazy

01:36:20   expensive, but this is the first one. And in the future, there will be non-Pro ones at obviously

01:36:28   lower prices." And I think the other things... I mean, it's an exciting time and I'm super excited

01:36:36   for it to come out and to see more. And I do think it's interesting. My whole spiel about,

01:36:43   "Well, my workflow is so Mac-centric," ties into the fact that you can, and you said,

01:36:50   get a virtual 4K display in the Vision headset with your Mac. When I travel though, and I use

01:36:58   my MacBook Pro as a laptop with the screen open, I kind of miss my studio display, but I don't miss

01:37:06   it so much that I'd want to put a headset on. But I have talked to people at Apple,

01:37:12   little birdies who've used it that way, who say it really is compelling. I mean, and there's a reason

01:37:17   they added the feature and that engineers at Apple who've had access to it really do use it and enjoy

01:37:23   using the virtual Mac screen within the headset. So it is a weird place that the iPhone and the iPad

01:37:31   have never had anything like that. So if you miss, "Oh, there's this certain app that only works on

01:37:36   the Mac. I do stuff at the terminal command line that I need." And you don't have that on iPad or

01:37:43   iPhone. Vision with this integration of a virtual Mac screen pairs with a Mac in a way that nothing

01:37:49   else ever has before. So I'm interested to see how that plays out. But the other things I'm interested

01:37:54   to see how they play out are sort of at the meta level, not capital M, the company. But there's so

01:38:02   many people who are skeptical that, "Well, at $3,500, nobody's going to buy this thing." But

01:38:09   I think it's going to be back ordered the whole year because I think they're not going to be...

01:38:15   And again, I could be wrong. I'm just going by the rumor mill, but the rumor mill says that these

01:38:22   Sony displays of which you need one in front of both eyes in each headset, Sony can only make

01:38:30   two million of them a year. So there's like a cap of like a million of these things that Apple can

01:38:36   theoretically make in the next year. And all other components aside that if they can't get more than

01:38:41   two million displays from Sony, they literally can't make more than a million Vision Pro headsets.

01:38:47   And by Apple's scale today, that's not that much, right? They sold a million iPhones in the first

01:38:53   year in 2007. The goal, Steve Jobs' goal was to get to 10 million like in the first 18 months,

01:38:59   which they hit. So the iPhone was much more of Apple was such a smaller company then with so

01:39:06   many fewer customers because the iPhone is the product that turned them from having millions

01:39:13   of users or tens of millions of users to a billion plus users. So if they can only make a million of

01:39:20   them, I honestly think it'll be back ordered all year. I mean, because developers are going to want

01:39:25   to buy them. I think for business travelers, the first class of airplanes is always filled up. I

01:39:31   mean, and I know some people get upgrades and I know that like business travelers who get first

01:39:36   class seats, the company pays for it, but the company might buy their Vision Pro headset too.

01:39:41   But if you have the sort of job where you travel all the time, buying fancy headphones has always

01:39:49   been a thing, right? Noise canceling headphones used to be considered super expensive too,

01:39:54   but who bought them? Business travelers. Being able to watch an immersive big screen movie

01:40:00   while you're flying it, that alone put aside all the computing parts, it just as an entertainment

01:40:07   device, there's plenty of people who would spend $3,500 for it if it's compelling.

01:40:11   - No, I couldn't agree more. And the other thing bringing up business travelers is what if you work

01:40:16   in something that is of high secrecy or confidential or whatever. A lot of people do

01:40:21   those things where they put the screen on top of your screen so you can only see it directly ahead.

01:40:26   It's going to be hard for somebody to see something that's literally attached to your face,

01:40:30   right? So I could see from like a privacy point of view, a corporate secrecy point of view,

01:40:35   how you can make a compelling argument for, well, my computer screen will be literally black,

01:40:41   or maybe it'll say I'm being used in the Vision Pro or what have you. And the screen that you're

01:40:45   actually looking at is touching your face. There's no one going to be shoulder surfing you if that's

01:40:50   the case. - Yeah. So maybe your work requires it, or maybe you're just that private/facial.

01:40:56   - Yeah. - I mean, I've seen it when traveling where there's... And I think there's all sorts

01:41:00   of different ways people can do it. There's like screen protectors you can put over the laptop.

01:41:04   - Right, right, right. - Sort of make it so you can only see it from a perfect angle.

01:41:08   I'm nosy. And when I go to the bathroom on a plane, I like to see... Not that I'm trying to

01:41:14   read their stuff, but I'm curious which devices people use, who's using a laptop, how many Macs

01:41:20   are there, how many people are still using Windows laptops, who's using an iPad for work, who's using

01:41:24   an iPad... And sometimes you walk past somebody's laptop and it's like, it looks like they're typing

01:41:29   on a black screen and you're like, "What the hell is... What are they doing?" Pretending to compute

01:41:33   and you realize, "Oh, they've got one of those screens that keeps people from looking at it."

01:41:37   Again, large scale, like the iPhone or just Macs in general, no, that's not a huge market,

01:41:45   but it is a market and that's the sort of people who have the budget to buy it.

01:41:48   But I'm also curious if I'm right that it's going to be backordered all year.

01:41:53   That means there'll be a secondary market on eBay and I'm curious how expensive they'll get.

01:41:58   If Apple says, "You don't place your order in the first five minutes after they go on sale in

01:42:06   January or February or whenever it's going to be." And in March, you've read the reviews, you're like,

01:42:12   "I want to get one of these." And you go to apple.com and it says, "12 weeks. What's the

01:42:16   price on eBay going to be?" And is that even going to be possible with the light shields and stuff?

01:42:22   That's exactly what I was going to say.

01:42:23   Right. I think my impression is that the light shields are sort of more like

01:42:29   Apple Watch bands where there's only a couple of sizes, but when I've asked them in my demos,

01:42:36   they're very cagey about it. How many of these are there? How many will be included?

01:42:41   You probably did this. I don't want to put you on the spot because I know you're not supposed to

01:42:45   talk about any of it, but I can say, I'm allowed to say that you use an iPhone when you first get

01:42:51   started to use a vision pro. I guess it's going to be an app or maybe it'll be in settings. I don't

01:42:58   know. They also don't tell me where this app was, but it's like setting up face ID though. You just

01:43:03   look at the phone in front of your face and it says, "Move your face in a circle," just like

01:43:08   setting up face ID. And it's them scanning your face or the phone scanning your face to get a

01:43:14   light shield guess. And how many of them are there? I don't know. And are you going to have

01:43:19   to pay for extras? And how's the whole thing going to work with a husband and wife or a family?

01:43:25   Oh, that's a very interesting point too. Yeah.

01:43:26   Right. Like you buy one for $3,500 and you get one light shield that doesn't fit your spouse or your

01:43:33   kids. And with the corrective lenses, how many... Are we just going to show up to the Apple store

01:43:41   with a piece of paper from your eye doctor that says plus four in this eye plus three,

01:43:46   seven, five in the other eye, "Here, give me these things." That's what it was like for me the last

01:43:52   two times in New York when I tried the vision where I just gave them my prescription from my

01:44:00   eye doctor. And then they had one set up for me with the right lenses in there. But back in June,

01:44:07   I actually visit... When there was like a guy who almost like going to the eye doctor,

01:44:14   which I think is more the experience you'll have in the store. They're saying nobody knows yet,

01:44:18   but it's going to be a process to buy one of these. And I think you'll buy... I don't even

01:44:24   know. Are they just going to sell them to people online and let you enter your prescription on

01:44:28   apple.com? I have so many questions like this. Yeah, I agree. I think the rollout is going to be

01:44:32   absolutely fascinating, particularly for talking heads like you and me. But I think it'll be

01:44:36   fascinating in general because they've all but said without actually saying that it's going to be

01:44:41   in store only. And that's all well and good, but I know that Apple stores are in population centers.

01:44:48   But looking at Virginia, Virginia definitely has some rural spots, no argument about it. But

01:44:52   a lot of Virginia, like the closest Apple store to a lot of Virginia, parts of Virginia that are

01:44:59   two or three, four hours by car, here in Richmond, I have the closest Apple store to areas in

01:45:05   Southwest Virginia that are like three hours by car. They're choosing between going to Raleigh,

01:45:09   North Carolina, or Richmond. And how's that going to work? You're going to drive three hours to pick

01:45:14   up your Vision Pro? That's not a particularly enjoyable first run experience. But I get it.

01:45:19   On the other side of the token is you need to be able to scan your face and pick out what

01:45:23   light shield you need. You need to be able to get the Zeiss prescription lenses and so on and so

01:45:27   forth. So I don't know. It's going to be very interesting. And like you were saying earlier,

01:45:31   the secondhand market will be fascinating too, because what are you going to do? You're going to

01:45:34   go, you're going to get the light shield for your face, and maybe you'll get the prescription lenses

01:45:38   for your face. And then you go to put that on eBay, and I guess you just hope for the best if

01:45:42   you buy it. You hope that light shield isn't a piece of garbage on your face. I mean, I am very

01:45:46   well endowed in the nose section, so I might need a very different light shield than someone who has

01:45:51   a little pixie nose. So I mean, it's just, I don't know how it's going to work. And obviously,

01:45:55   Apple doesn't care about the secondhand market. But even still, it's a fascinating thing to think

01:46:00   about. And also they've said the rollout is US only. So are people going to be coming flying into

01:46:05   the States and going to like the Times Square store or something like that in order to pick

01:46:08   up a vision pro? Could be, you never know, especially if you're a developer from overseas,

01:46:12   like look at James Thompson with Pecan. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he comes to New York.

01:46:17   Tom Scott It's easy for us, we Americans, to overlook it. But it was a huge thing for

01:46:21   the first few years of the iPhone, where it was debuted, not just US only, but on one carrier in

01:46:28   the US. But there was a huge gray market for iPhones around the globe, especially once they had

01:46:35   the version. Oh, no, I guess it was the other way around where Verizon was the weird one on CBMA.

01:46:41   So yeah, so actually, it was because it was GSM, you put SIM cards in around the world and just,

01:46:47   how big is the gray market going to be? It's weird. I don't know. It's exciting. But that's

01:46:53   all next year. So let's get back to this year. What else? Anything else from WWDC? I mean,

01:47:00   I guess we could save talk about the operating systems for when they actually shipped. But

01:47:04   Yeah, I think that was it. I mean, obviously talk show live, which was live for the first time. Is

01:47:10   that right? It was no, it was COVID. No, no, no second because I had the weird one on campus

01:47:18   in the development center. Right, right, right, right, right, right. The sort of one step in

01:47:23   COVID land, one step back to the real world. Yeah, boy, that seems like a long time.

01:47:28   I was just, I just watched it here at home and it seems like forever ago for me as well.

01:47:34   But yeah, I think that's it for June. Holy cow, does that seem like a long time. The summer months

01:47:38   were bare as usual for news while Apple was heads down on the operating systems. We did get threads

01:47:44   for what it's worth. That was in July. I know that's not Apple specific, but threads were long.

01:47:50   And Twitter continued to fall apart. Indeed. Oh, and now Apple almost bought

01:47:56   Disney for five minutes. No, what was the story there? Somebody-

01:48:00   I don't remember. It was Disney's, I forget what it was. Was that Iger coming back or what was it?

01:48:06   Disney was trying to load half their streaming services. I don't know. You have a post about it

01:48:09   in August, Disney and Apple sitting in a tree. I forget the specifics behind it, but there was,

01:48:14   if you squinted just right, it looked like there was a vague possibility that Apple would do it.

01:48:19   And if you looked with your eyes open, it was pretty clear it would never happen. But if you

01:48:22   squinted just properly, you could almost see it. It was, now that I think about it, it was more or

01:48:27   less prompted by Disney stock continuing to slide and grumpy investors wanting somebody,

01:48:35   if you want- If you want to save the day.

01:48:37   Well, and the only way to fix a depressed stock price immediately is for somebody to come in with

01:48:45   an acquisition offer at current price times 1.2. Right. And so boom, instant 20% gain in the stock.

01:48:53   It worked out very well for Elon and Twitter with his goofy, what was it? What's the joke? I always

01:49:01   forget the number. He was going to buy it at like 420 or something like that.

01:49:05   Yeah, whatever. 42, whatever. But you don't use threads much. I looked before.

01:49:12   It seems clear to me, it was always kind of, it was always apparent that this is quickly becoming

01:49:18   what we all thought of as Twitter. Maybe not in our little nerd circle, but broadly, like societally,

01:49:23   what was once Twitter to my eyes seems to be moving to threads. And in the last couple of

01:49:29   weeks to my eyes, it seems clear that's where it is. And actually I was thinking about this

01:49:34   just a few days ago, that after tweetbot died, my wife Erin who would browse Twitter and use it for

01:49:42   news, but not ever really post or anything like that. Well, when tweetbot died, she didn't enjoy

01:49:48   the official app. And I don't know many people that do to be honest with you. And so she just

01:49:52   stopped looking at Twitter, but she said to me many times, you know, Oh, this news that I used

01:49:55   to get via Twitter. I don't really have a source for that anymore. And a couple of days ago,

01:49:59   I thought to myself, you know what? I think threads has got that critical mass now that if one,

01:50:04   like Erin is looking for a Twitter replacement that isn't the garbage fire that Twitter is,

01:50:10   I think threads is there. And so I've been telling myself recently, I need to start paying more

01:50:15   attention and really ramping up my usage because I think that's where the people are these days. And

01:50:19   not to say that I have a whole lot that I need or want to broadcast, but certainly I want to be

01:50:25   a part of the conversation or privy to aware of the conversation if nothing else. And so

01:50:29   yeah, I think threads is certainly where it seems to be. And I think that from what I can tell you

01:50:33   and I treat threads and mastodon kind of inversely in that I am way in on mastodon. I occasionally

01:50:39   look at threads and it seems to me, don't let me put words in your mouth, but it seems to me that

01:50:42   you're kind of the opposite. Maybe a little, but I don't know. It's hard. I do. I find it far harder

01:50:51   than I would have even expected to try to split my time across even more than one, let alone three

01:50:57   or four of these things. And it's unfortunately, even though I like the product very much,

01:51:02   blue sky has been as the fourth one has fallen through the cracks for me. Like I still have it

01:51:08   on my second home screen. I still look at it once in a while. And, but it's like, I just don't have

01:51:14   time for it. It's debatable whether I should spend any time on any of these things, to be honest. I

01:51:20   think everybody has thought the same thing about Twitter over the years, but it's in hindsight,

01:51:26   now that I've sort of spent time across three of them. Twitter is a legacy product, which I don't

01:51:32   avoid. And I understand the people who are like, fuck this guy. I'm just, I'm out. I'm never posting

01:51:38   her again. I totally get it. I don't sort of suspect that all things considered, they're

01:51:44   probably more right than me to act that way. I'm sort of more, well, I'll go where the audience is.

01:51:51   And I still do have a lot of people who use Twitter. And I get it. So I check in and I check

01:51:58   my mentions, but it's like the app is so broken. Forget about the fact that Tweetbot and third-party

01:52:02   clients don't work anymore. It's been true all year. My, when I go to twitter.com or use the

01:52:09   Twitter app on my phone and I go to notifications, my mentions aren't there. They're just broken.

01:52:17   This has been true for, I think a full year at this point here. Let me look. So I have to,

01:52:21   I can like search for my name and then they all come up, but it's like, oh, it's a pain in the

01:52:26   ass. So I do, I check in, I check the Daring Fireball account. My bot has been broke. My

01:52:31   Daring Fireball bot has been broken for months. I'm going to fix, I hope I'm going to fix it over

01:52:35   the holiday break, but it's, that's sort of my little protest politically. It's in years past,

01:52:42   I would have, if my auto posting bot to the Daring Fireball account broke for some reason,

01:52:48   my fault or an API change or whatever, that would be like, ah, I better drop everything and fix it

01:52:54   in the next day. Whereas my little protest has been letting it sit broken for months.

01:52:59   But here, if I go to notifications and Twitter, yeah, it mentions my mentions. I have one December

01:53:06   27th, December 18, 18, 18, but they're all from the same guy.

01:53:11   Trenton Larkin Hard to believe. I would suspect that you're missing a bunch.

01:53:13   Dave Asprey They're all from the same guy. Yeah. And then it goes to December 6th, December 5th,

01:53:18   and that's Ben Thompson. So somehow some of the people who you might think algorithmically would

01:53:23   be promoted. So I've only got like, I don't know, 15 mentions in all of December. That's not

01:53:28   accurate at all. It's just broken. I find it very hard to split my attention between, but-

01:53:34   Trenton Larkin I do too.

01:53:34   Dave Asprey The two, but with Mastodon and Threads are so different that I actually find if I could

01:53:40   just abandon Twitter completely, only using Mastodon and Threads to me, pairs in a very

01:53:48   different way. Sort of like having a bicycle and a car where I use them for totally different

01:53:53   purposes. And I'm never confused which one is which as opposed to like a motorcycle and a car.

01:53:59   Right? It's like, well, then you're both sort of motor vehicles as you know, it's very clear.

01:54:04   And Mastodon to me is much more like Twitter of the original years, no algorithmic timeline.

01:54:11   And I'm there to follow people. And even when it's just my mentions and I get feedback from random

01:54:20   daring fireball readers, I know I'm seeing all my mentions in chronological order. And I can

01:54:26   just scroll down, see it and oh, there's one that I remember seeing yesterday or the day before. So

01:54:31   I'm done. I'm caught up and I'm done. Whereas the Reds is more like tuning into TV, right? It's like,

01:54:38   ah, I've got I'm bored. Let me see what's on Threads. And I know that you can tap a button and

01:54:43   get the following timeline where it shows you a chronological timeline of the people you follow.

01:54:49   I never even use it. It's not even the fact that it's a tap or two away and they sort of like

01:54:54   Instagram stubbornly insist on going back to the algorithmic timeline when you relaunch the app.

01:55:01   It's just a pure time waster or or like catching up on news, right? Something happens in the news

01:55:08   and I'll go and they do a good job of surfacing that. And my timeline in Threads is and I did

01:55:15   funny because it seems like since the EU joined a couple of weeks ago, there's a bunch of new users

01:55:21   and it seems like some people suddenly or within the last week or two have started getting more

01:55:29   stuff that makes them angry in their Threads timeline. I'm not seeing that at all.

01:55:34   I'm seeing like halos and harps playing like it's all dead. I don't see any right wing nuts

01:55:42   and there's no fights. It's just, you know, it's pretty nice, but it is sort of just like,

01:55:48   let me go there, scroll for a while, see if I see anything new. I often find stuff that's worth it

01:55:53   and I'll go to my mentions there, but it's different than Mastodon. So it pairs well where

01:55:58   to me it's almost like two different experiences. Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think I don't

01:56:04   know that I would recommend Mastodon as like a mass market social network. If you're a nerd or

01:56:09   enjoy nerdy things, then yeah, it makes sense. But you know, the cost of entry, not in a financial

01:56:15   sense, but like I know they've made it easier to understand what an instance is and what one you

01:56:20   would want to choose and so on, but it's just not designed for regular people. Whereas Threads,

01:56:26   I think very much is, and you see a lot more regular people on Threads and that comes with

01:56:31   some bad, but I think it's mostly a good thing. And so yeah, I don't use Threads much at the moment,

01:56:36   but I plan to do my best to increase my usage, even though Mastodon I think will forever be my

01:56:41   primary, well, maybe not forever, I shouldn't say that, but it will be my primary social network.

01:56:47   But I think more and more over time, I'll be paying attention to Threads and it wouldn't

01:56:50   surprise me if it ends up that I just stopped paying quite as much attention to Mastodon.

01:56:54   Right now it's 90/10, I think eventually it'll be 60/40 or something like that,

01:56:59   but it wouldn't surprise me if that 90/10 ends up floating the other way so that it's 10/90,

01:57:03   if you will. But we'll see what happens. But anyway, that was July. We got off on a little

01:57:06   bit of a tangent there, but that was July. Yeah, but it's worth it. I do think it's significant

01:57:10   and it is fascinating and it is kind of, I've said this, I think to Ben on dithering, but

01:57:17   I do see it. Threads has single-handedly changed my mind about Meta as a company in ways that I've

01:57:24   had to backtrack on certain assumptions. It is a much better product at a design and engineering

01:57:30   level than I'd given them credit for their abilities and their taste. And I get it,

01:57:36   my eyes are wide open. I know Instagram used to be like that back when Instagram debuted,

01:57:41   and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 10 years from now Threads is as convoluted as

01:57:48   Instagram is today. Instagram is still extremely popular and I still do check in on Instagram,

01:57:55   but I don't use Instagram nearly as much as I used to just because I don't enjoy it.

01:57:59   But I get why more people do, right? It's become more of a mass market product and the things

01:58:04   they've added to Instagram that I don't really care about. I get it that like Reels and the

01:58:10   thing at the top, whatever they call it, are what other people like and spend more time with. And

01:58:17   God knows they measure it all, so they know what's engaging. It's just not engaging to me, right?

01:58:23   Instagram of 2011 was way more engaging to me. So I get it. Threads might get junked up and

01:58:30   Zuckerberg's been pretty clear, you know, like they have no ads now. Again, that was true for

01:58:34   Instagram for years. And for some reason, my account was blessed and I got ads. I was like

01:58:40   the last person on Instagram to get ads. And now I get ads like everybody else, every three posts

01:58:46   as I scroll the timeline. And I'm sure Threads might be like that someday too, but maybe not,

01:58:52   right? Because it is. Do you watch Curb Your Enthusiasm? No, I don't. But you know the general

01:58:57   premise and you know Larry David's thing. Is that right? Yeah. He plays himself in the show.

01:59:04   And so he is like in the show, he's the Larry David who co-created Seinfeld back in the 90s

01:59:12   and is a mega millionaire because of it and is famous because he was a creator of Seinfeld.

01:59:17   The difference is he doesn't have Curb Your Enthusiasm in the Curb Your Enthusiasm world,

01:59:21   but he's rich. But he's rich and he's spiteful. And two seasons ago, he was in a coffee shop and

01:59:31   he likes his coffee piping hot. And he thought the coffee he was served was not hot enough. And

01:59:37   the owner came over and said, "Ah, that's hot as everybody else gets it. It's plenty hot."

01:59:41   And he says, "If it was so hot, if it's hot, why could I can do this?" And he puts his nose into

01:59:46   the coffee and he's like, "It didn't burn me. Now, if this was hot coffee, my nose, I'd have

01:59:50   to take it out." And the guy, he gets in a fight with the coffee shop owner about whether the

01:59:54   coffee, just one cup of coffee is hot enough. And so what does he do? He finds out that right next

01:59:59   to the coffee shop, it's like in a strip mall in LA, there's a vacancy. And so he leases the

02:00:04   building and opens a coffee shop just to spite the guy right next to it and undercut his prices,

02:00:10   a spite store. That's incredible. That is incredible. It's like a season-long plot.

02:00:16   It's not an episode. It's like sort of like a 10 season-long story of him offering opening a spite

02:00:22   store. That's what Threads is, right? Threads doesn't exist if Elon doesn't buy Twitter and

02:00:30   Zuckerberg doesn't hate Elon. I don't know that they're in it to make money. I feel like they're

02:00:35   sort of like, "We make all the money we need from Instagram and the blue app and whatever else.

02:00:41   We're just going to build a spite network just to spite Twitter." I find that fascinating because I

02:00:49   don't like Elon Musk at a personal level. I actually don't. And so it's nice to root against

02:00:55   him and to see a rich company do this. I mean, I guess the difference from Curb Your Enthusiasm is

02:01:03   in the show, you kind of think Larry David's being a dick about the whole thing and the coffee shop

02:01:07   owner, maybe he was having a bad day. You got one cup of lukewarm coffee. In this case, it's nice to

02:01:13   root against Twitter, right? And it's really interesting to me as somebody who's been a

02:01:20   Twitter user since the very, very early days to see Meta flex their engineering muscles on this and go

02:01:27   from zero to 100 million users and not have the thing fall down overnight and to open up to the

02:01:33   whole EU and it just works. And they're adding features and improving it at like an indie

02:01:40   developer pace. They really are. It's astonishing. It really is interesting to just sort of observe

02:01:46   as a sports fan, right? No, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. And I think what's also fun

02:01:53   and fascinating is that when you're Elon Musk and you have effectively infinite money, who's really

02:01:59   going to stop you in any capacity? Like, yes, there are laws, kind of. And so there are ways

02:02:04   that you can be stopped. But the only person that will really stop him is someone with also infinite

02:02:11   money and a team of clearly very talented engineers that who knew can do things other than

02:02:15   sell ads. Like they actually, to your point, they brought this from nothing to an incredibly popular

02:02:22   social network in the span of effectively zero time. It's utterly fascinating. And

02:02:26   and Zuckerberg has said, we'll worry about making money when we get to a billion users.

02:02:32   I think he means it. That's sort of what they did with Instagram. It's sort of his formula is,

02:02:37   build a thing that you think has the room to grow to a billion users, stick with it. And this to me

02:02:45   is where I do see a similarity to Apple, right? Where they're like, yeah, we'll ship this headset

02:02:51   that we know is going to sell in very low quantities. And we're just, we have a 10 year

02:02:55   plan for this, right? They had a 10. They're so good at the long game, like Apple pay, right?

02:03:00   I remember like when Apple pay first came out and it was like, oh, there's only like 13% of

02:03:05   US retail places even accept Apple pay. It's a failure or whatever. Now it's everywhere, right?

02:03:10   And it's the iPhone. It's like, it's one phone on one carrier in one country. It's not going to be

02:03:14   a big hit. Look at it now, right? Meta has sort of has that discipline with threads where they're

02:03:20   just like, we're just going to stick with this. And I I'm here for it. That's amazing. Yeah.

02:03:26   I, and as you said earlier, it's really changed my opinion of meta for the better. You know, I was

02:03:30   snarking a moment ago that they can do things other than sell ads, but that kind of was my

02:03:34   opinion for a long time was that's all they really did. That was all the real innovation they ever

02:03:38   did leaving aside the Oculus, Oculus is and things of that nature, but the traditional like Facebook,

02:03:42   as we always knew it, all they seem to do is sell ads and in shitify Instagram, because to your

02:03:48   point, Instagram was amazing in the late aughts and now it's, or maybe it was the early tens. I

02:03:54   don't know. I think it was, I think it did be debuted in 2010. Lord only knows how I remember

02:04:00   that, but it was, but now it's such a mess using Instagram and I still do like Instagram even

02:04:05   despite Instagram, but yeah, I'm very curious to see what the next few months and few years of

02:04:10   threads looks like, because I think there's a lot of potential there. I absolutely am here for Elon

02:04:16   getting his ass handed to him. I am here for that in any capacity. So I think I'm grabbing my

02:04:21   popcorn and I'm watching what's going down to tie it with Apple. The interesting thing is to watch

02:04:26   Apple sort of pretend threads isn't there. Right. And there's, there's the whole controversy that's

02:04:33   seemingly ended a few weeks or months ago at this point with the I forget what I have at this point,

02:04:42   I forget what line Elon Musk crossed that, that had everybody. What was it? It was something like

02:04:48   retweet something deeply anti-Semitic or something. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. It was like

02:04:52   something like somebody tweeted something about the terribly anti-Semitic great replacement theory

02:04:57   and he was like, interesting, whatever. And everybody was like, yeah. And like Disney and

02:05:01   GM and Procter and Gamble and all these Coca-Cola and Apple and Nike, it all just stopped advertising

02:05:08   on Twitter. But Tim Cook will still post on Twitter for Martin Luther King day or wish

02:05:15   everybody had Merry Christmas. I don't know if he did. I don't check Twitter enough to see it

02:05:18   anymore, but Tim Cook's not on threads. Every other major CEO is Andy Jassy from Amazon and

02:05:26   Satya Nadella and Sundar Puchai from Google. All the other CEOs are on threads and they're like,

02:05:33   hey, nice to be here. And you kind of read between them. Apple's not. Only Phil Schiller personally

02:05:38   is pretty active on threads, but now Schiller's in a weird sort of half in half out. Well,

02:05:45   it's like, yeah, he's not really half in or half out. He's just Phil Schiller now. Right?

02:05:50   Right. He's still very much engaged at Apple, I know, but he's unique. Right. And there's

02:06:00   Apple accounts for certain things, but they're not very active. You don't have to wonder why that is.

02:06:05   Apple and Meta have a very contentious relationship. Right? Very much so. Yeah.

02:06:10   Actually of the rank and file Apple employees that I know, the regular engineers, there seems to be a

02:06:18   fairly deep, hatred is a strong word, but a very deep dislike of Meta in most of the things they

02:06:25   stand for. And this is just rank and file. I'm not even talking about the C-suite. Just the rank and

02:06:28   file engineers seem to really dislike Meta a lot. And conversely, now that I'm a little

02:06:35   more in touch with Meta and their engineering and stuff, you can see that Meta has resentment

02:06:40   towards Apple with the whole app tracking transparency and sort of, I think taking it

02:06:45   personally, the whole sort of, I forget, there was a question about something with Zuckerberg

02:06:51   and they asked him cook what he would do. And he was like, I've never would have gotten in that

02:06:55   problem in the first place. It's definitely personal, even at the rank and file level,

02:07:00   not just the executive level. I would say there's more animosity between Meta and Apple than between

02:07:06   any of the other, the diagram of all the other big five companies. They all are suspicious of

02:07:13   each other in certain ways, but the two that seem to have the most personal dislike is Apple and

02:07:19   Meta. Which is funny because you would think it would be Google and Apple. And I think early on,

02:07:23   you could make an argument that maybe there was, when Android was pivoted from what it was.

02:07:28   It was like more black. Well, I mean, yeah, it was the end of Steve Jobs's life was him declaring

02:07:33   they're going to go to war over Android copying iPhone. On the other hand, I think Apple was a

02:07:39   little late to embrace YouTube and eventually came around. And now the Apple channel on YouTube has

02:07:46   everything you'd think. They put their keynotes on it live because they know that there's, for however

02:07:53   many of us watch it, you know, the keynotes remotely on Apple TV or on apple.com, there's

02:07:58   a lot of people who are going to watch on YouTube and they put their commercials on YouTube and they

02:08:03   put the behind the scenes thing on YouTube for the iPhone. So I would guess that they'll do the same

02:08:10   with Threads, but it's sort of a wait and see. We'll be the last company to embrace Threads the

02:08:15   way that they were active on Twitter. But I think they're going to eventually because I think it's

02:08:20   sort of inevitable in a way that putting your stuff on YouTube was inevitable. I mean, and even

02:08:26   Microsoft who again, doesn't really have animosity towards Google, but Microsoft, you know, is very

02:08:32   much like Apple sort of a do our own thing. We don't use other people's stack. Microsoft puts

02:08:38   everything on YouTube. Everybody, if you have like a keynote and it's not on YouTube, it might as

02:08:42   well not exist to some segment of the population. No, it's true. It really is. I mean, I tried it

02:08:47   with, you know, even my own goofy live shows. I used to have them on Vimeo. I'd rather in theory,

02:08:53   put them on Vimeo than YouTube because I don't need YouTube's ads. I don't want their ads. I mean,

02:08:58   I have my own sponsors, but when I had my live talk shows on Vimeo, it was constant whack-a-mole

02:09:05   with people putting them on YouTube. All right. I was irritated, but when they'd show up on YouTube,

02:09:12   it was always people who liked my show. There's a great, great live show from WWDC. Here it is

02:09:17   on YouTube. I couldn't find it on YouTube. So here it is. And it's at some point you got to stop

02:09:23   trying to get water to run uphill. Yep. It's very true. Oh, all right. We're halfway through the

02:09:28   year. We're going to have to cut it short. We spent so much time on the half of the year where

02:09:33   Apple didn't release stuff that I know. God, yeah, this is big ATP energy right now. Well,

02:09:37   let me, let me just take a break here. I thank our second and final sponsor of the show, our final

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02:10:54   to doing the actual payment processing. When you do the payment processing, they've got all the

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02:11:19   I always say, Marco always says on the other show, you, the listener of this show, you're the nerd in

02:11:25   your friend circle and your family when people come with technical questions and somebody who

02:11:31   isn't technically minded, doesn't know the difference between HTML and CSS and JavaScript,

02:11:36   doesn't even know which is which, comes to you and says, what should I do with a new website?

02:11:41   Send them to Squarespace. It'll make them happy. It'll keep them out of your hair. They'll be able

02:11:45   to do it themselves. That's how approachable it is to the lay person. And give them my URL.

02:11:51   Send them to squarespace.com/talkshow. Or if you prefer, if you want to, I'll be magnanimous. You

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02:12:29   Indeed. All right. Speed run.

02:12:32   I mean, at this point, do we just go for broke? I mean, where are we at this point?

02:12:37   It's pretty long.

02:12:38   So iPhone event in September?

02:12:40   Yeah. So what do we think in hindsight? I would say the thumbs up if we go thumbs up,

02:12:45   thumbs down. iPhone 15, I think, are super successful. I just picked up, I dropped in

02:12:52   my bathroom, my uncased iPhone 15 Pro. Didn't break anything, didn't shatter anything, but it

02:12:59   has the tiniest little, it's like a dent in the titanium. It's the right kind of damage where it's

02:13:07   sort of personalized. It's all counted as patina rather than a damage.

02:13:12   Yeah. It's patina more than... And it landed face down. So I had that moment where I was like,

02:13:18   oh God. And I turned it around and it's nothing. And I was like, ooh. And I didn't even notice

02:13:23   the little dent until like the next day. So I've got one more. Titanium total win, action button,

02:13:29   total win.

02:13:31   Let me ask, are you using the action button a lot? And what do you have it set to?

02:13:36   I still have it set to the shortcut I wrote about when I've customized a shortcut where

02:13:42   if the phone is face down or pointing down, like in my pocket, it toggles mute on and off

02:13:50   and otherwise launches the camera app. I do use it, but I honestly, I thought I

02:13:57   toggled the mute switch more than when it was a switch, more than I turn out doing.

02:14:01   And so I've sort of been leaning towards just changing it back to just launching the camera app

02:14:09   because some, but I know overall it, it mostly just works for me. My shortcut where I just sort

02:14:16   of point it like I'm going to point a camera. And when I hold the button down, it launches the camera

02:14:20   app. So pretty happy with it. Yeah. I have mine set for camera and I definitely like having it.

02:14:26   And I know that you can do the little swipe from right to left to get to the camera, but

02:14:31   I don't know what my deal is, but I feel like half the time I go to do that,

02:14:33   it doesn't freaking work. And it's probably, I'm not saying it's Apple. I think it's me not

02:14:36   swiping accurately or something like that, but having a physical button in order to just grab

02:14:41   the phone, mash down on it, and then you're in the camera. And then certainly if you leave it

02:14:45   set to the stock camera position, if you will, then you can also use it as a shutter, which is

02:14:50   super great. And I, I really enjoy having it. It's not make or break, do or die, but especially

02:14:56   since I, as an Apple watch person, my phone hasn't been off silent in, since 2014 when I got my first

02:15:02   Apple watch. And so the ring silent switch was the world's most expensive and worst idea of a

02:15:08   fidget spinner that I ever had, but that's what I used it for. I would just click it incessantly

02:15:11   and it's a miracle and never broke any of them. But having the action button is way better in

02:15:15   my opinion. And I'm glad that it's there, even though I don't think it's the sort of thing

02:15:21   that I would buy a new phone just to get that. No, I, I, I, I would never recommend somebody

02:15:26   buy it just for that, but it's nice overall. And I, I get it, I guess. And I loved the mute switch

02:15:34   and I still sometimes miss it. I forget what app I was using the other day. It was, I don't know

02:15:40   what it was, but I was watching video. Maybe it was threads. I don't know, but I wasn't getting

02:15:44   any audio in the video I was playing. And it turns out the problem is it was on silent mode. And I,

02:15:50   most of the time video bursts through that or sometimes it does. I'm always a little confused,

02:15:56   but in the old days, when it was a switch, I wouldn't even have to look, I would just

02:16:00   guess that's the problem and just move the mute switch while I'm still playing the video. And then

02:16:06   if the sound kicks in, I'm like, Oh, that was the problem. And you don't get to do that anymore.

02:16:11   I guess I would, if I set the action button to only always toggle mute, but it's not enough

02:16:17   that I miss it. You know, and the other thing is I'm the sicko who loves the key click sounds.

02:16:22   Oh, that's right. It's been so long since we've been around each other. I completely forgot about

02:16:27   that. I do like the key click sounds, but I like them, or I think I like them a little bit less now

02:16:34   that the iPhone finally has haptic feedback on the keyboard, which is very subtle, but that's what I

02:16:40   like and still do like about the key clicks is it is a form. It's like you're getting, it's not haptic,

02:16:47   but you're involving more of your senses. And I can't, I think I type better with my thumbs when

02:16:53   the clicks are on, but you know, there are times when I know it's inappropriate to do it. And one

02:16:59   of them is certainly when I'm in bed with my wife, that is an instant I might get shoved out of the

02:17:06   bed. And so I have found with this phone, I just, I kind of becoming more like most normal people

02:17:14   where my phone is in silent mode all the time and okay, fine. There's the rumor. I just wrote about

02:17:20   it today. In fact, that the next year's iPhones are going to add another button, a dedicated,

02:17:25   they're calling it a capture button, which I can't help but think will be, and Gurman has said,

02:17:30   it'll be for capturing video, but I have heard no little birdies talk about this button at all. So I

02:17:35   don't know, but just knowing Apple, somebody at Apple who blabbed to Gurman said that it maybe by

02:17:41   default it goes to video, but surely if they add that button, you'll be able to configure it. Even

02:17:47   if it only does camera related things, you'll be able to say, oh, always go to video, go to still

02:17:54   photos, use it to take still, you know, you'll be able to do more than one thing, shoot video with

02:17:59   it. I'm sure that would be kind of, it would almost be silly to add a button that only shoots video

02:18:04   or that only shoots stills, but I'm here for that. I've, as a dedicated hardware camera fan over the

02:18:11   decades, I do miss having a hardware shutter button and it would, that would then free up

02:18:17   my action button to just go back to toggling silent mode. That's true. Yeah. I'm holding my

02:18:22   phone now and it occurs to me like in principle, if you hold it in such a way that the action

02:18:28   button is on top, there's no, you know, the shutter is the action is where a shutter button would be.

02:18:34   But then my natural inclination is to put my finger in front of the lenses and that's no good.

02:18:39   So if you flip it the other way, such that you have a button on the other side, on the same side

02:18:44   as the lock switch or lock button or whatever they call it, then it makes a lot more sense because

02:18:49   your natural place to put your finger is no longer in the way of the lens array. So I get it. I mean,

02:18:54   it does make sense. And again, I do have a micro four thirds camera and although I use it increasingly

02:18:59   rarely these days, I still do love having a physical camera. And I agree with you having a

02:19:03   physical shutter button is pretty great. I just told you I like it with the action button and it

02:19:06   would be even better positioned more like a physical shutter in a big camera. Yeah. And I

02:19:12   will also say, I think year in year out for years now, a very long stretch ever since the camera app

02:19:21   became more than utterly simplistic, right? Like the original first few years of the iPhone,

02:19:26   it was, I mean, it didn't even have video originally. It was really just a button,

02:19:29   right? It was like a shutter button. I think the camera UI team at Apple is their

02:19:34   number one A team of interface designers. I think it is, if I had to do like a lecture on

02:19:42   interface user interface design, I could imagine doing an entire lecture just on the interface

02:19:48   design of the iPhone camera app. It is so good. I think it looks good. I think it's got such an

02:19:55   incredible attention to detail. And a truly immense amount of complexity that has to be hidden. I mean,

02:20:01   if you look at the camera app by default, there's a few buttons across the top and the slider of

02:20:06   video, photo, et cetera, et cetera, and the lens selector, but there's not a lot of stuff here.

02:20:11   And you can do the little dropy downy thing when that's when you get a lot more controls, but

02:20:15   it is surprising how basic and safe it looks unless you want to go digging. And that's really important

02:20:24   because you got to cater to everyone and a more amateur or perhaps even a professional photographer

02:20:29   can get a lot of what they want in the camera app. But someone who doesn't really care about that

02:20:34   stuff, they just have the big white button that's always been there and they can point and shoot and

02:20:37   be fairly confident that it's going to work. Yeah. So I, with that team, I just anticipate,

02:20:43   I guess it's wishful thinking, but I just think that team will think of clever ways to use a

02:20:48   dedicated hardware button that I can't even imagine. And I can't wait to see it. And supposedly

02:20:53   it's a force, you know, won't actually move button. It'll be like the old touch ID button

02:20:58   that's that uses haptic feedback. My idiot idea is to just make it like a dedicated hardware camera

02:21:05   where you half press to focus and like exposure lock and then full press to shoot. But I wouldn't

02:21:11   be surprised if that camera team thinks of even more clever ways to just one simple button with

02:21:16   force sensitivity, do really clever things. I can't wait. Yeah. I don't have much more to say

02:21:22   though about the iPhones. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I really like them. I went big phone for

02:21:27   the first time this year because I really wanted that five X camera. And I do like,

02:21:30   I think for the most part, I do like it. I've turned into one of those dorks that has a pop

02:21:35   socket on the back because this is not a one hand phone. It's just not, I mean, maybe if you have

02:21:39   freakishly large, large hands, but I have normal person hands and it's just not a one handed phone.

02:21:44   So I've seen that there are some rumblings that maybe next year, the pro, but not pro max would

02:21:50   get the same zoom lens that the only the pro max got for the iPhone 15. And although I do love the

02:21:56   real estates of the 15 pro max, I would probably think real hard and perhaps would even go back to

02:22:04   the 15 pro because it's just so much nicer to have a phone that you can easily use in one hand.

02:22:09   I stand by the decision I made. I think I would make it again today given the iPhone 15 lineup.

02:22:14   But if the 16 gives me the option of having the big, deep zoom,

02:22:18   even in the regular size phone, I'll probably go and do that.

02:22:22   That was always the pattern. I mean, it's always a pattern until Apple breaks it, but in the

02:22:26   like iPhone 6, 7, 8 era, or maybe not 8, there would be years when the plus camera would have

02:22:34   features that the regular one like optical image stabilization debuted in, I don't know,

02:22:40   like the 6s plus or I don't know what it is. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I don't remember.

02:22:47   I know optical image stabilization was because it was physical, right? It's the ones.

02:22:51   I'm thinking portrait mode wasn't it's it was always, it was always things that made sense

02:22:57   would take some extra physical space in the actual hardware. But every time they did it,

02:23:04   and back then I never once to come to buying the plus phone, even though every time it hurt me that

02:23:09   I was no longer having the best camera on my iPhone. Same, but every time they did it the next

02:23:14   year, that feature would come to the regular sized iPhone. And that would, you know, if the rumor is

02:23:20   true, and it's not just people speculating, it seems to be coming from the supply chain,

02:23:24   that's going to happen with the 5x zoom next year. So I guess that's good. I say I guess because

02:23:31   I get and I just today was shooting something outside our window across the street,

02:23:35   I sort of wanted to zoom in. Amy has a Pro Max and I was looking for her phone. I was going to

02:23:41   use her phone to shoot the picture, but I couldn't find her phone. She had it like upstairs or

02:23:46   something. So I, you know, I guess more often than I want 3x, I do want as much reach as possible,

02:23:54   right? The conundrum is if you do want like a 3x zoom for the framing purposes, the Pro Max is

02:24:03   worse because it has to upscale the 2x camera to the 3x range or 4x range. But that trade-off

02:24:11   overall, I think you want the most reach possible more often than you really want the highest

02:24:17   possible 3x accuracy. Yeah, it could be more, especially in my point in life when we have two

02:24:22   kids in elementary school and elementary school performances are a thing and things of that nature.

02:24:27   And so reach matters. Reach matters. Reach matters big time. I'm surprised if you were looking for

02:24:33   Amy's phone, you didn't do the find my friends thing with the ultra wide band. You know what

02:24:37   I'm talking about? Because I've tried that a handful of times with Aaron and I in like a store

02:24:41   or whatever, and it isn't perfect, but my goodness, when it works, it is magic. I've not used that yet

02:24:49   because we just don't go out that much. But it wasn't important enough to spend more than 10

02:24:56   seconds looking for the phone. And it wasn't a fleeting moment per se. It was a guy on a cherry

02:25:03   picker across the street doing something on the roof of somebody's building. He was going to be

02:25:06   in the cherry picker for a while, but I didn't feel like hunting for the phone. But what else?

02:25:10   iOS 17, I guess that's, I'd give it part of my overall thumbs up for the year is a general idea

02:25:18   that Apple has, as all of their platforms have stabilized, they've taken a sort of, if it ain't

02:25:25   broke, don't fix it approach. I don't have, it's not just that we're two hours and 40 minutes into

02:25:32   this and I want to rush, but I don't have much to say about iOS 17 other than overall, then pretty

02:25:39   solid year. And it was, there were no, ooh, don't upgrade yet moments. They sort of have done a good

02:25:46   job. I think they've done an ever better job each year taking not fully cooked features and just

02:25:53   waiting to put them in 17.2 or 17.3 or something like that. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

02:26:00   Although it occurs to me, I think iOS 17 could have alone gotten a thumbs up from me for the rest,

02:26:08   even if the rest of the year was trash, iOS 17 could have gotten a thumbs up strictly because

02:26:13   they finally fixed the fucking autocorrect that was driving me bananas on the last like three or

02:26:19   four versions of iOS. And 17, every great once in a while, I'll have like a weird capitalization or

02:26:25   it'll go from two words that genuinely belong together and then it'll go off into La La Land

02:26:32   and replace with some other words. But that was happening always in iOS 16. And now it happens

02:26:38   once a week at most. I mean, maybe your experience is different, but mine has been so much better.

02:26:43   And that alone has made it okay to type on my phone again, because it was the worst in iOS 16.

02:26:49   It was so bad and it was so infuriating. It's argued, I would put it up there as one of the most

02:26:56   invisible features when it works, right? You really don't, it's good of you to call it out

02:27:00   and think about it. But my, I have to think back, I'm like rolling my eyes in my head and thinking,

02:27:06   yeah, I haven't had a complaint about autocorrect in a long time. So yeah, kudos to them. And it's

02:27:12   sort of, to me, emblematic of Apple's approach to AI and machine learning and stuff where they're not

02:27:19   doing, and I don't think it's just out of character for them to do wow, holy crap things like

02:27:28   chat GPTs or the image generation things. They're just sort of make things nicer and do it in an

02:27:36   invisible way that doesn't really stick out, right? It's pretty good. Although on the other hand,

02:27:42   I guess the other thing in September, we can just roll right into Apple Watch discussion.

02:27:46   WatchOS 10 is a huge upgrade, right? And I still, I kind of have mixed feelings about it.

02:27:55   They did bring back in the last update, like a couple weeks ago, the swipe between watch faces

02:28:02   thing, which to me was baffling that they got rid of. I say that, but I mean, cause I use it all the

02:28:08   time. That's like the way I use my Apple Watch is I have like three faces that I swipe between

02:28:13   with varying amounts of complications. But like my main one is just, it's very simple version of the

02:28:20   utility face with the weather in the top left. I've got the date in that three o'clock marker

02:28:26   inside the watch face on utility. And that's it. It's just a simple analog watch with hour,

02:28:32   minute, second hands, no numbers, just a simple face, very minimal. But then, you know, like I

02:28:38   swipe to the side and I have the exact same watch face, but with fantastic call underneath. So if I

02:28:43   know I have events coming up, but then if I know I have nothing coming up, I just swipe over to the

02:28:48   side and instead of saying no more events or something down there, just nothing, just blank.

02:28:53   I thought it was crazy that they got rid of that, but they really sort of rejiggered the whole

02:28:59   watchOS interface, right? Like notification center. They added this smart dock that comes

02:29:05   up from the bottom, but that's where control center used to be. And now to get to control

02:29:10   center, you have to hit the side button, but hitting the side button used to bring it to

02:29:13   the app switcher. It's, I don't know. I don't, I just don't love Apple watch enough to really

02:29:19   care that much. I don't know. I mean, I, but it is weird Apple watch, but I agree with you that

02:29:25   it's not a platform that is so integral to my life that changes like this. I mean, some of them

02:29:30   are weird. Some of them are not, but it doesn't totally shatter my world one way or the other.

02:29:35   It did shatter Aaron's world when they killed swipe to change faces, which like you said,

02:29:40   they brought back, but she uses a album face as her watch face, it's an album with the kids,

02:29:45   and it has the time on it and basically nothing else. I think that's all they allow you to put

02:29:48   on it. But then she would swipe over one to get to the complications for like fitness and stuff

02:29:53   like that. She looks at several times a day, and now you can presumably swipe up and do that widget

02:29:59   kind of like the Siri watch face used to be, but it was certainly a period of much consternation

02:30:05   from her that she couldn't just swipe laterally like she was used to doing. But no, I think all

02:30:10   in all, the changes are good. It looks good. Like Carrot Weather, although I don't typically

02:30:13   use it outside of a complication on my watch face, on the occasions that I tap into Carrot Weather,

02:30:18   it looks beautiful. The, what is it? Brian Muller, I believe, really did a good job embracing the new

02:30:24   design paradigms and obviously Underscore has been doing a lot of great work with what he's got in on

02:30:28   the watch. But yeah, I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was like a nothing burger because

02:30:33   there was a lot of improvements, but nothing that I can look at and say, yep, that's the thing that

02:30:37   really changed my life for the better. Yeah, it's, I guess I've just sort of procrastinated on

02:30:43   reviewing watchOS 10 and there's just not much to say about the hardware, right? I mean, really,

02:30:49   they just added the double tap feature. And I know it's a new system on a chip and they'd actually

02:30:54   gone a couple of years without revving that. And with my review unit, the main thing I noticed was

02:31:01   I do think the significantly increased battery life, which for a daily product is great. It's

02:31:08   a big difference to go to day and a half battery life from day long battery life.

02:31:12   Day long battery life, you're always going to be a little stressed about it, right? And day and a

02:31:16   half, you're still going to need to charge it every night, but you don't need to stress about

02:31:20   it. You never need to top it up in the middle of the day or anything like that.

02:31:23   Right. But you can do something like if you're going on a two hour long walk, sure,

02:31:28   I'll just say okay to letting you track it as a fitness event, even though you know that those

02:31:34   fitness events really do drain the battery. Increasing battery life is great, but literally

02:31:39   otherwise, like from the outside, indistinguishable from series eight and ultra one. It's the OS that

02:31:45   changed. There's a rumor again, I think Gurman's on it. Other people have too, that next year they

02:31:51   might even call it series 10 with an X like they did with iPhone 10 and finally change the strap

02:31:59   adapters. You guys talked about it at length on ATP. No, I don't see how anybody can complain. I

02:32:04   mean, people will complain because the watch straps are expensive, but 10 years is a long run. So

02:32:10   if they do change it, that'd be interesting. But to me, the interesting difference is when they

02:32:16   totally changed how the iPhone paradigm worked and got rid of the home button, went to a full screen,

02:32:21   they had to change the OS to accommodate that, right? They went hand in hand. The weird thing,

02:32:30   maybe not weird, but different is that this was the year with watchOS 10 where they rejiggered

02:32:35   all of the way the interface works. So the side button does a different thing. You swipe up for

02:32:39   a different thing. You swipe, you do this for a different thing. The navigation is totally

02:32:45   different. They added the whole smart stack thing with the widgets, which was all new,

02:32:50   with a watch that looked exactly like last year's, right? And if they change next year's watch to

02:32:56   look different, like, oh, I can just tell at a glance on your wrist, you've got the new Apple

02:33:01   Watch X. I don't think there's going to be any OS change accordingly, right? Because they already

02:33:08   did that this year. But yeah, I think you're right. And with regard to the bands, just briefly,

02:33:14   it'll bum me out if we lose compatibility because over the years, especially once

02:33:18   Aaron and I landed on the same watch size, because early on I was on the bigger size,

02:33:23   she was on the smaller, now I'm on the smaller size. It'll bum me out to lose our collection.

02:33:28   Not that we have anything fancy or expensive. We're not rocking a black link bracelet or

02:33:32   anything like that. But nevertheless- I still have mine, but it's from the Series Zero.

02:33:36   Right, exactly. Oh, God, I coveted that so badly. I wanted one so bad, but I was

02:33:41   too cheap to do it. But nevertheless, it'll bum me out if we do switch sizes. But to your point,

02:33:46   I mean, 10 years is perfectly reasonable. And actually, just very briefly, not that we have

02:33:50   any need to go on any longer, but I am surprised, speaking of nothing burgers, the USB-C transition

02:33:57   in terms of complaining, that was a nothing burger. Like, I can't think of a single person

02:34:01   that I heard, not even like a friend of a friend of a friend, that complained about it. Everyone

02:34:05   seems completely copacetic with it, and nobody had any problems, which is good. I mean, I'm glad.

02:34:10   I think that Apple- you could make an argument that Apple did it at the right time,

02:34:14   specifically because nobody is complaining about it, and everyone seems happy with it.

02:34:18   Yeah, Amy complained a little bit because of- oh, I know what it was. She still had AirPods Pro 1,

02:34:31   so she had this one thing that required a lightning adapter. But because her phone

02:34:36   was upgraded to this, I changed the little spare kitchen adapters to all be USB-C.

02:34:42   But I fixed that at Christmas by getting her Apple AirPods Pro 2 with a USB-C case. So

02:34:48   the complaint's gone. But that wasn't really a complaint about the iPhone switching to USB-C.

02:34:54   It was the complaint about still having this one thing that still required lightning.

02:34:58   I agree with you, though. It really was a nothing burger.

02:35:02   With the exception of people were a little grumpy, and I do understand it, about track

02:35:06   pads and keyboards still being lightning. And that doesn't bother me as much, since it's like

02:35:10   a once a month or once every couple of weeks kind of situation. But it did strike me as a little

02:35:15   weird that Apple couldn't find the time to update their peripherals. I mean, they even did- it took

02:35:20   a few months, but they even did the case only for the AirPods Pro. You can get an AirPods Pro USB-C

02:35:27   case without the actual earbuds, but we still haven't gotten new keyboards or track pads or

02:35:32   mice or anything like that. Yeah, I think it kind of speaks to how important the iMac is.

02:35:37   Well, really. But you're honest. Yeah, yeah.

02:35:41   You know, I mean, is it a big deal that they just ship the exact same keyboards and track

02:35:46   pads and mouse? No, but you know, surely that upgrade is coming. But you know, so what? It

02:35:52   didn't come yet. I guess that leads us into October, which was the M3 series MacBook Pros.

02:36:01   And I'm so glad I've got you on the show. I want to tell you that this is the one area where I feel

02:36:08   most aligned with you on ATP, especially with Marco giving you shit about picking a 14-inch

02:36:14   over a 16-inch, right? So for people who don't listen to ATP, Casey has a 14-inch new space

02:36:20   black, right? You're not an animal. Marco got the 16-inch and the 16-inch basically has more thermal

02:36:29   headroom for sustained performance. And Marco gives you a lot of grief about it. But I think

02:36:34   that's ridiculous. I'm a 14-inch man myself. And I think your explanation that you don't run into

02:36:42   the thermal limits of the 14, so why would you care? I honestly don't get it. I feel like it's

02:36:48   sort of he doth protest too much. And I think Marco ribs you about it because he's the one

02:36:54   lugging around a heavier, bigger laptop that he probably doesn't really need.

02:37:00   That's very true. And I mean, obviously part of the shtick of ATP is to just give each other

02:37:05   stick. But the only time it ever bothers me is when I'm doing some sort of transcode of some

02:37:10   sort of video file, which honestly, 98% of the time I'm doing that when the computer's sitting

02:37:16   at my desk and I'm somewhere else. I'll take it off and then I'll walk away.

02:37:19   You're not doing it on an airplane on the train.

02:37:22   Generally speaking, that is absolutely correct. I can't think of a time I did do it on an airplane.

02:37:26   But either way, in one breath, I'll tell you that the M3 versus the M1, I have an M3 max and I had

02:37:32   an M1 max. I wouldn't say that they're night and day different in terms of speed. I mean,

02:37:36   this one feels faster, but it's not earth-shattering. Then again, I look at the

02:37:41   speeds in which I can transcode stuff using FFmpeg on the command line and it is considerably faster

02:37:47   from what I can tell. Like at the frame rate, it's not a frame rate, I'm doing like 10 to 15

02:37:51   X sometimes doing an HEVC in code and that is pretty great. And additionally, I love that M1

02:37:57   max to death. Like that computer was probably my favorite computer I've ever owned in my life.

02:38:02   It was all of the great stuff from my iMac Pro, which I also adored, but I could take it up and

02:38:07   bring it anywhere I wanted. And there was no compromise other than screen real estate.

02:38:11   This one is that cranked to 11 and oh my, I am such a sucker for the space black. I am such a

02:38:18   sucker for it. It looks so good. And I probably would have bought anything they sold me as long

02:38:25   as it had that color because I'm a complete sucker. So what is Christina Warren has the

02:38:29   rose gold? I think that's her like kryptonite. Well, for me, it's space black, just a blackish

02:38:34   laptop. Get me more black if you can, I'll do it every time. Yeah. So I'm sticking with my M1 max

02:38:41   14 inch MacBook Pro, which I bought when it was new two plus years ago and maxed out. I have the

02:38:47   most storage I think is four terabytes. I have the most RAM you can get, which is 64 gigabytes. It

02:38:54   was like $5,000. And when I was reviewing the M3 14 inch, I mean, the Apple sent me like literally

02:39:04   the laptop I would buy, I guess it has less storage, but you know, I don't need storage on a

02:39:10   review unit. Right. But it was maxed out at RAM, which is what is the max now? Is it 96 or 128?

02:39:16   120. They gave me one with 120. I was so in there. I still think I think it's phenomenal.

02:39:21   And I thought as I was using it for a week and a half to write my review, I'm like, I'm going to

02:39:27   buy one of these because I just want it so bad. And it's like, I could just, I'll either say, I

02:39:32   often don't sell my old stuff, but it's like, well, with an M1 max, you know, that I paid $5,000

02:39:38   for I'll sell it. Or maybe, you know, I just like testing Jonas. Do you need a new laptop? How's

02:39:44   your MacBook Air holding up? Please say yes. But then ultimately I went back to my M1 max,

02:39:52   my personal one that's two years old. And I didn't notice a single thing different. I mean, like

02:39:58   where the way I use a Mac and I don't even do anything like the transcoding things you do with

02:40:03   that, I even think I'd run into it. I always notice going backwards to a slightly slower device more

02:40:11   than I noticed getting the new review unit with the latest and greatest. But I mean, I literally

02:40:17   could not tell anything was any, that's how fast my M1 max. So I was like, you know what, I'll just,

02:40:22   I'm good. I'll just, I'm going to be a big boy. And I put that beautiful, beautiful space black

02:40:28   thing back in the box so I wouldn't be able to see it. And I'm back to space gray and I'm like,

02:40:34   I'll at least wait till the M4s. I just can't. It was a momentary bout of sensibility.

02:40:40   I was going to say the world is turned upside down where I'm the one spending money like it's going

02:40:44   out of style. And you're the one saying, no, no, no, no. I'll pause on this one.

02:40:48   A momentary bout of sensibility. And I thought I can live with space gray. It's just,

02:40:52   I just literally couldn't notice anything. It's that good. And for my needs, I have this terrible,

02:40:59   terrible browser tab, have hundreds of browser tabs open. But I was 64 gigabytes in the 18 months

02:41:08   to two years of all the times I've ever looked in activity monitor. I've only seen swap used once.

02:41:14   And it was like two megabytes. I don't know. It was like ridiculous. It was like the tiniest amount

02:41:19   of swap. And then I went over and typed uptime and it was like uptime 27 days. And I'm like,

02:41:24   oh, I could just restart. Yep. That's why with this one, I did get more storage because I

02:41:31   apparently really hate money, but you want to keep it for years, right? Well, that's the theory,

02:41:36   but I upgraded in two years, Marco as well, kind of Marco style. But nevertheless, I stuck with 64

02:41:41   gigs. I could have, like, I had told myself that, hey, you know, if you want to go all in on this,

02:41:47   like I did with the prior one with the M1, then just go all in. It'll be fine. But I was in a

02:41:52   similar boat where when it comes to RAM, especially since I'm not doing heavy GPU stuff, it just didn't

02:41:57   seem worth it. And so I stuck with 64 gigs. I went eight terabytes because I don't ever want to have

02:42:01   to think about running out of storage. And we were talking about this earlier. I'm long since done

02:42:05   worrying about storage, but I stuck with 64 gigs because I don't think I need more than that. I

02:42:10   mean, remind me of this in a year when I buy the M4 with 3000 gigs or three terabytes of RAM, but

02:42:16   you know, sitting here now, I don't think I need it. Yeah. Going back to my personal M1 and

02:42:22   realizing, you know, of course I'm not noticing any slowdowns because I never swap with 64.

02:42:27   The last spec that I always thought I was enough of a power user that I could never get enough of

02:42:34   was RAM. And I have to admit that even my browser habit, 64 gigabytes is good enough for me for now.

02:42:41   Some paraphrasing of the Bill Gates, 640 kilobytes of memory should be enough for anyone. 64 gigabytes

02:42:48   of RAM, at least in 2023 remains enough for me, which again is ridiculous. Syracuse and I,

02:42:57   so we were talking about my old Power Mac 9600 350 desktop thing. And I was looking up the specs and

02:43:04   honest to God, I was like confused. I got totally confused about megabytes and gigabytes. I was like,

02:43:09   wait, I remember thinking, cause when I bought it, I remember thinking, oh my God, it has so

02:43:15   much RAM. This is glorious. And it was like, I don't know, 64 megabytes of RAM. I mean,

02:43:21   it's like ridiculous at the time it seemed luxurious, but then it very quickly it's only,

02:43:27   this is the first, my M1 Macs MacBook Pro is the first time in my entire life where I feel like I

02:43:33   have more RAM than I need. Yep. Yeah. I think that's probably true. I don't remember how much

02:43:37   I had in my iMac Pro cause I think I had quite a bit, but I don't know. I think it was, I had 64

02:43:42   gigs in the iMac Pro and that's why I went 64 in the M1 is cause I didn't want to go backwards,

02:43:47   even though I knew it wasn't, you know, apples weren't exactly apples in this situation,

02:43:50   but I didn't want to go backwards. And yeah, I think once I hit Apple Silicon, it's been

02:43:55   plenty for me and I'm doing, you know, a fair bit with Xcode. I occasionally run Final Cut Pro

02:43:59   and I never run into a problem. I'm now rocking three 5k screens and it's still not an issue.

02:44:05   I will say, I think it's worth commenting on. I have it in the notes here, but I thought really

02:44:10   interesting and worth commemorating in the year in review thing is the fact that Apple shot the

02:44:16   scary fast event that announced these M3 MacBook Pros with iPhones as the camera.

02:44:23   Yep. Yep. Yep. And I know that they announced it and the first reaction everybody had was,

02:44:28   wow, they shot that with iPhone. I had no idea. And then the half a second later was, yeah,

02:44:33   with a crew of 60 professional cinematographers and a drone and a crane and all of this stuff.

02:44:41   And of course they did that. It's still though, both things can be true. They, yes, they still

02:44:47   had a probably millions plus dollar budget to shoot the damn thing and used world-class crew,

02:44:55   right? But they did. They shot the damn thing with iPhones. And I find that incredibly inspiring.

02:45:02   And it's in the same way that I love iPhone photography contests, or I know this year he

02:45:09   didn't do it, but a friend of the show, do you ever meet Austin Mann? If you know, I know who

02:45:14   you're talking about, but I've never met him. I've met him a couple of times. You'd love him. He's

02:45:18   just a genuinely aces person, but like for several years in a row, he would go to exotic places like

02:45:27   shoot silverback gorillas in Africa or lions on the planes and test the new iPhone camera.

02:45:33   And of course I can't shoot photographs a fraction as good as Austin Mann or anybody who's won

02:45:41   iPhone photography contests or had their photos chosen by Apple for the decade plus long shot with

02:45:49   iPhone billboard campaign. But I love them because they're inspiring to me. There's what I know is

02:45:56   the bar for shooting with this camera that's right in my pocket right now. Somebody did that.

02:46:02   It's like a stretch goal. I really admire them for doing it. And I think it's a genuine feather

02:46:09   in their cap. And I think kind of shows, I know everybody wants to chalk up the switch to USB-C

02:46:16   as being entirely forced by the EU regulations, but talking to people at Apple, and of course,

02:46:22   some people at Apple are going to be prone to resist admitting that the EU forced their hand.

02:46:28   But I really do think that even absent that regulation that the iPhone might've switched to

02:46:33   US, the iPhone pro models, at least maybe they wouldn't have switched the non-pro ones, but

02:46:38   they didn't just change the charging port. They added legitimately pro features where you can

02:46:44   do these incredibly pro things and shoot your high-res video to an external SSD. In fact,

02:46:50   you can shoot, I think 4K pro res, you can only shoot to an external storage device. It's a

02:46:58   genuinely professional feature. And there's no way, I mean, I know from talking to people at

02:47:03   Apple, that's the reason this was the first time they shot an event with iPhone cameras,

02:47:08   because they needed that. They actually, it's not, I think optically they could have done it before.

02:47:14   I think the video was good enough optical quality in some ways, but the actual technical reasons

02:47:20   that they want USB-C out at a high speed to shoot to a storage device, I think it's tremendous and

02:47:28   just inspiring. And sure, student filmmakers aren't going to have a budget like Apple does for this,

02:47:35   but never underestimate how clever, talented young filmmakers can be. And the cameras right there,

02:47:43   they already have it. Yep. Yeah. I don't know if you, are you familiar with Tyler Stahlman?

02:47:47   Has he ever been on the show? I don't recall. Okay. No, he's not been on the show, but I

02:47:51   am trying to think if I met him. I might've been introduced to him through Whiskas, I forget,

02:47:54   but I know his work. It seems awful that I don't remember whether I met him in person.

02:48:00   I mean, it's been a while since we've been around people, but he just-

02:48:03   YouTuber extraordinaire.

02:48:04   ... for 48 hours. Yes, exactly. And he's a professional photographer,

02:48:08   just really tremendous work. And just in the last 24 or 48 hours, he announced the Stahlman Clamp,

02:48:15   which is a pro-level iPhone clamp that's designed for vertical video, which admittedly vertical

02:48:23   video is not my thing because I'm an old, but the point is that it is, I think that this is

02:48:29   indicative of kind of the ripple effect of the shot on iPhone thing from the keynote, because

02:48:35   I think Tyler is smart enough that he would have landed here regardless, but it's proof that you

02:48:42   can use an iPhone in a truly professional capacity. And I don't think Tyler would be

02:48:47   designing and building the Stahlman Clamp to use in a professional context unless he wanted to use

02:48:53   it, right? And so the fact that the iPhone can be used for real honest to goodness professional work,

02:48:58   I mean, it's used for an Apple keynote for goodness sakes. Like, it's clear that it has

02:49:03   arrived in that capacity, and I think that's incredibly cool. And as you said, deeply,

02:49:08   deeply inspiring. Now, it will never look as good as an Apple keynote without having, you know,

02:49:12   Tyler's experience and Apple's budget, but it can look pretty darn good. And knowing that you can

02:49:19   get that quality from the phone that's already in your pocket is incredibly, incredibly inspiring.

02:49:24   Pete: Yeah. Do you think they're going to keep shooting future keynotes always with iPhones?

02:49:29   Jared. That's a great question. I would say, I would think they will. I'm not super convinced,

02:49:40   but I think they will. Pete. I sort of, but I wonder, like with this one, because they wanted

02:49:47   to be able to say it was entirely shot with iPhone, every single shot was shot with iPhone.

02:49:51   I wonder if there'll be that dogmatic about it. Like if there are certain shots that it's like,

02:49:58   oh, we could do this, but man, it would really be better if we used like a red camera,

02:50:02   depth of focus or something. And then they could put in the credits,

02:50:06   shot with iPhone and red cameras or something like that. But I kind of think they will. And I know

02:50:14   that some people, it might have even been Tyler who did it. I know that there were some people

02:50:18   who deconstructed that video after it came out. And sort of showed some of the telltale signs in

02:50:25   hindsight. I mean, a big one is depth of field, where with a bigger sensor and bigger glass,

02:50:32   you can get that natural bokeh effect. And because of the nature of a tiny little camera,

02:50:39   you don't get that optical bokeh. And so you could see that in some of the shots in the keynote where

02:50:45   everything's in focus from the foreground to the background or more in focus than it would have

02:50:50   been with other ones. But I also think that's sort of the look of these keynote shows Apple

02:50:56   produces anyway. They don't really go for a blurry background. You can kind of see it. So I kind of

02:51:04   think they'll keep doing it. Because I think it's just literally going back like 20, 25 years where

02:51:10   they made like little badges you could put on your website made on a Mac. It was like a thing. Apple

02:51:15   had it on their website. It used to be a thing Mac users who made websites would do, made on a Mac.

02:51:21   I think it is. It kind of lets them sort of advertise the iPhone in keynotes for anything.

02:51:30   Yeah, absolutely.

02:51:31   So it's like they've probably already shot it, I'm guessing, the Vision Pro keynote, or at least

02:51:36   have shot much of it. So it can be this keynote that's all about the Vision Pro coming in a month

02:51:42   or six weeks or something supposedly. But then it serves as an iPhone ad at the very end shot

02:51:47   on iPhone.

02:51:48   Yep. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it wouldn't surprise me if they were, I don't know if "negged"

02:51:52   is really the word I'm looking for, but if they were "negged" on it. But like you said,

02:51:55   a moment ago, it's a feather in the cap. So it is pretty cool to be able to say, "Look,

02:52:00   this is why you get the latest and greatest Apple stuff. Because look what you can do with it,"

02:52:03   leaving aside the $50,000 in lighting and the 15 people that are working in it. But nonetheless,

02:52:07   it can be done. And you know how much they love shot on iPhone, how much they love talking about

02:52:12   music videos and films that were shot on the iPhone. So yeah, I think they'll probably at

02:52:17   least try. Or and certainly I think even if it's not every single one, I would suspect it's at

02:52:23   least one every year is shot on iPhone.

02:52:26   Yeah, but I kind of think it makes more sense to just do them all. Because then if they have one

02:52:30   that doesn't have that credit, then everybody will be like, "Well, why?" And everybody will be like,

02:52:35   "Deconstructing it." It's sort of a measure twice cut once sort of thing, I think, where they're

02:52:43   like, "If we really are going to do this, we're going to have to commit to doing it henceforth."

02:52:46   And I kind of think they did. Speaking of, we're getting towards the end, there's not much left

02:52:52   to talk about. But speaking of shooting on iPhone, one of the new things that came out after October

02:52:58   was the spatial video feature. Have you been shooting spatial video now that the feature's out?

02:53:04   Yeah, multiple times. You know, Christmas just happened and it didn't even occur to me because

02:53:08   I'm just not programmed for it yet. It didn't even occur to me to shoot any spatial video.

02:53:12   I noticed I'm a really bad videographer in the sense that I don't think to take video often. And

02:53:18   I have little kids and I should be taking way more video, but I just don't think about it. I think

02:53:22   more in stills than I do in video. And I need to fix that. Aaron is much better at taking video

02:53:27   than I am. And so I definitely need to take more video, period. And I think while the spatial video

02:53:35   is kind of neutered a little bit, insofar as it's 1080 only, and I think it's what, 30 frames per

02:53:39   second? I think what I'll probably do is try to alternate back and forth, or every second or third

02:53:44   video I'll try to remember to do spatially. Because I suspect there will come a time that there will

02:53:48   be some hardware in my life that can show me a spatial video. And I can only imagine how cool it

02:53:54   would be, and I mean, jump in when you're ready, but how cool it would be to relive a moment like

02:53:58   Christmas or something like that in 3D. That's got to be just mind-explodingly cool.

02:54:03   Ted

02:54:24   It was a beautiful day, Thanksgiving here, and the kids were all out in the yard playing,

02:54:31   and it was just perfect. It was almost like an Apple commercial. It was a beautiful sunny day.

02:54:36   So I shot tons of video knowing... I didn't know I was going to get to preview it at the time,

02:54:42   but I knew that the headset's coming, so I figured, you know, and it was on my mind.

02:54:46   And then I got to use those clips and see them. And it wasn't... I mean, maybe I'm too cold. I

02:54:53   don't know. It didn't make me cry. But on the other hand, at the time, it was three weeks old,

02:54:59   right? And so come back to me in 10 years when I look at those same clips. Maybe the

02:55:05   waterworks will fire up. It's too fresh to be nostalgic, but it is immersive in a way that a

02:55:15   regular video isn't. It's not super 3D. It is 3D. It is definitely not flat. But the other thing,

02:55:25   the thing that made it very difficult to judge in detail is that I only got to see one video that

02:55:33   was shot with the Vision Pro headset. And it was the same one that they've been showing to us in

02:55:39   the media since June of a bunch of like 20-something young kids, what I call them kids,

02:55:46   but 20-year-olds hanging out by a campfire. Right?

02:55:49   Oh, yeah. I think I've seen a flat version of this.

02:55:52   Yeah. The flat version is public somewhere. And that does look more 3D, but they didn't have any

02:55:59   other clips with it for me to see other than that one again. And it makes sense that it's...

02:56:03   You never saw the birthday cake one or whatever?

02:56:05   I did, but only back in June. I haven't seen the birthday cake one since WWDC.

02:56:11   And it makes sense that it would be more effective 3D because the cameras on the Vision headset are

02:56:18   exactly eye-width apart, which is the most natural distance for the lenses to be apart to fake your

02:56:24   brain into thinking you're seeing 3D. And the two cameras on the iPhone, obviously, even the most

02:56:30   beady-eyed mofo out there doesn't have eyes that close to each other. But it's worth it enough for

02:56:37   me that I did shoot more video at Christmas. It's like, yeah, I'm glad I shot that Thanksgiving video

02:56:43   Spatial, even though it's only 1080, 30 frames per second. It's worth it. And I do think,

02:56:49   man, that the 10 years down the line is just going to be wow.

02:56:54   COREY I can also imagine that today's technology for spatial video... What is the thing that Disney

02:57:00   came up with where it's layers of different pieces of animation and they kind of move? You know what

02:57:05   I'm thinking of? They move like parallax? It wouldn't surprise me if today's technology

02:57:09   of spatial video is sort of like that, where you do have some amount of depth, but it's not

02:57:13   like a full z-axis, if you will. It's more there's a couple of stages or a couple of steps where you

02:57:19   can tell that there's depth. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the way it is.

02:57:23   And maybe in the future, it would be more like a true infinite z-axis where it's clearer

02:57:28   what is close and what isn't. But I mean, I don't know. We'll see how it lands when it comes out in

02:57:33   the next couple of months. JOE ICONIS Right. It's fascinating. And it's been,

02:57:36   it's true for me. I mean, my son is older than your kids are, but it's being a parent that really

02:57:43   makes you think about the technology of cameras. And so I remember thinking when Jonas was a

02:57:49   toddler, he was born in 2004, so like 2005, 2006. I remember there was a period, maybe it was around

02:57:56   three or four when the flip cameras were the rage. And I had one. And there's like a two-year stretch

02:58:02   where we've got way more video of Jonas than any other years, because it was the years where I had

02:58:08   the flip with me all the time. And every time we'd go to the playground, I'd have it with me.

02:58:12   And then the iPhone came out and I stopped carrying a flip camera, even though the iPhone

02:58:17   didn't have a video feature at all. So there's like this burst of video and it's 640 by 480,

02:58:25   I think. Flip was not HD even, I don't think. I don't know.

02:58:29   JOE ICONIS I never had one. I thought there were some that were 720,

02:58:32   but I don't think it ever got me better than that.

02:58:33   JOE Yeah. Or maybe it was 720. I don't know. And they were so cheap at the time. It was a very fun

02:58:38   little fad. And in hindsight, we look at them now and they look so crude. I mean, low light is

02:58:46   garbage. The resolution is garbage. The optical quality isn't that great. And they do. They bring

02:58:51   tears to me and Amy's eyes. And even Jonas enjoys them. And I'm so glad I have them. But it is such

02:58:57   crude video. It's always going to, for the entire digital era, it has been so true that every four

02:59:06   or five years you look back and you're like, I can't believe that's what we lived with then.

02:59:10   And I'm sure it'll be the case with spatial video, right? Where the spatial video people like us are

02:59:15   shooting now with iPhone 15 Pro, we'll be so glad to have it 10 years from now. But at that point,

02:59:23   we'll have these devices that shoot 8K, 120 frames per second.

02:59:28   JOE Right. In stereo.

02:59:28   JOE Right. And looks like it has a refresh rate that's faster than your eye can track, right?

02:59:35   In a way that a retina screen, you can't see pixels. There's a certain frame rate you can

02:59:40   reach where it's indistinguishable from real life. And we'll be shooting video like that. And

02:59:45   we'll still be so glad we have it, but it'll look so crude. But it's a great feature. I'm so glad

02:59:52   Apple added it. And I'm happy to start shooting it. But it kind of breaks my heart. More than

02:59:58   any other thing, going to 1080, going to better low light, going to 4K, all of those things have

03:00:06   made me think, boy, I wish I had a camera that could do this when Jonas was little. Boy, I can

03:00:10   wish it. But this is the one where I'm like, oh! [laughter]

03:00:15   JOE I totally hear that. Very briefly, when you were there, you said you made mention of looking

03:00:20   at panoramas. How was that? Because I can imagine a panorama when looked at on a phone screen is

03:00:25   very high fidelity. But if you're looking at it on an effective 20-foot tall screen that's going

03:00:30   all the way around your face, did that blow up okay? Or did that look like garbage?

03:00:35   PAUL I don't think, well, you know I've got… JOE Well, you both have garbage eyes for different

03:00:41   reasons. PAUL Yeah, but when I take an eye test, I can, with corrective lenses, I still get a 20/20.

03:00:48   So my eyes aren't that bad. But I hesitate to criticize the detail that much. But I don't mind

03:00:55   a little graininess. I mean, for example, 1080 video when you're in Vision Pro definitely looks

03:01:02   grainy because 1080 isn't nearly enough resolution for how big videos look. And spatial video in

03:01:09   particular is bigger in your field of view in the headset. But I find the graininess to be

03:01:15   film-like in nature. I think Apple's doing something, and I asked if they are, and then

03:01:19   I got like a sort of a smirk as an answer, like, you know, no comment. But I do think they're

03:01:26   making the upscaling. They're doing… it's not just dumb upscaling. They're trying to make it

03:01:31   look good. But to me it's like film grain, like looking at The Godfather or some movie from the

03:01:36   '70s where the movies look different from the '70s and '80s, but the ones that are beautiful then,

03:01:42   I find the grain to be beautiful. And I get it why modern movies don't go for that look,

03:01:47   although I think this movie, The Holdovers, that's a Paul Giamatti movie that's new. But it takes

03:01:53   place in the '80s, and apparently they've tried to make it look like it was shot in the '80s in

03:01:57   ways. I don't know. I thought panoramic photos, I thought they were fantastic in the headset.

03:02:02   It's astonishing to me that this feature that was created with iPhones long before the Vision Pro

03:02:11   was even in their mind and certainly didn't know it. And when they… and they've… Jaws told me,

03:02:16   I think, I forget if it was on stage or maybe off behind the scenes, but I don't think I'm betraying

03:02:21   any off-the-record type thing. They… when they had the idea during the development of Vision Pro,

03:02:28   and they knew they wanted to do the 3D video thing, and then somebody had the idea, "Well,

03:02:33   what about panoramic photos? Can we do something with those?" And they're like, "Huh, maybe."

03:02:37   And it was somebody just had this spitball idea, and they thought, "Well, let's see." And then

03:02:43   they did it, and they were like, "Wow, this is amazing." And for me it is. The weird thing about

03:02:49   it is it's been a feature in the iPhone since… I just was talking about it with somebody. I think

03:02:54   the iPhone 5 or 5S. In fact, I know it was one of the two. It was either 5 or 5S introduced

03:03:00   panoramic photos. And… or maybe I'm wrong, and it was a 4S. All right, 4S, 5, or 5S, but roughly

03:03:07   10 years ago. I found them so… when am I ever going to look at these that I've shot a ridiculously

03:03:14   few number of them in the decades since? Almost none, because they look terrible. I don't under…

03:03:20   I was like, "It's a neat gimmick, but they look so weird and squished and unrealistic."

03:03:27   And yet when I had this demo and I fished out a handful, most of them I shot when the feature was

03:03:34   new. It was like with the first iPhone that did it. They're super compelling in the headset.

03:03:40   And it's really, really good. I mean, do they look like they're lower resolution than the size? Yes,

03:03:47   but I don't find the graininess… Off-putting.

03:03:50   Off-putting, right. It doesn't look like you're really there. You can tell it's not real,

03:03:55   but it is very compelling and engaging. And I don't know, until very recently, this is the sort

03:04:02   of experience you'd expect at a Disney theme park that you paid $200 to get a ticket and waited in

03:04:08   line for 45 minutes to get into the ride to see something like this. As a basic rule of thumb,

03:04:15   if you're shooting people shoot spatial video and if you're trying to remember a place,

03:04:21   shoot panoramic photos. I anticipate shooting panoramic photos a hundred times more often now

03:04:28   than I did before, knowing that there's this remarkable way to view them. It really is super

03:04:33   compelling. That's awesome. No, I'm glad to hear it, because I was a little worried that it would be

03:04:38   off-puttingly grainy when blown up. No, it's not too off-puttingly grainy. And the stitching

03:04:43   together or the decompressing of it into an actual panorama, it's just remarkable. It's just

03:04:48   absolutely astonishing. It's really, really engaging. It just, it really, it seems like

03:04:54   you're in like a multi $20 million Disney attraction. In some ways, because they're bigger

03:05:00   and further from you than the spatial video. In some ways, it's more wow than the spatial video.

03:05:07   The spatial video is like intimate and it's like very personal. And the panoramic photos are like,

03:05:14   wow, this is a thing. I can't believe I shot this with my 10-year-old iPhone.

03:05:18   Yep. I totally get that.

03:05:20   What else? Was there one more thing that we had for the year? There was the spatial video,

03:05:24   oh, journal, the journal app. That's the last news from Apple of the year. Are you using the

03:05:29   journal app? Syracuse is not. No. So I am not using it, but I am on the beta for day one. And

03:05:37   I don't know if I'm supposed to be discussing this, but here we are. In the beta there,

03:05:43   no, I don't see it, but somewhere in the beta, there was a basically

03:05:45   call up the thing that the journal app ends to app developers.

03:05:51   Yeah. Well, because as far as I can tell, and I think you and John might've gotten this wrong,

03:05:56   you and Syracuse might've gotten this wrong. I might be the one that's wrong. I'm not sure.

03:05:59   But my understanding is you can't, as an app developer,

03:06:02   vend events into the journaling app or not specifically anyway. I think it's just like

03:06:08   general activities that you would have for like handoff and things like that. I think the

03:06:12   journaling app picks up, but I don't think there's any explicit way to say to the journaling or

03:06:16   journal app, here's something you should consider for the user later on. But what you can do,

03:06:22   and now I can't find it in day one, but I swear it was in the beta for at least a minute,

03:06:26   is you can call up a list of things that the journal app has pulled together as ways to start

03:06:35   an entry in day one. Does that make sense? So you're looking at, you're looking at, here's all

03:06:40   the things that the journal app thinks is interesting, or any of these things you want

03:06:44   to put in day one. And I haven't used it, but a couple of times, and honestly, a lot of the

03:06:49   things that came up with so far, I'm not that interested in, oh, I just did a walk around the

03:06:52   neighborhood. Do you want to add that to day one? Like for me, no. But I like the principle of where

03:06:57   this is going. I think it would be better if it was both directions, if I, as an app developer,

03:07:02   could say, oh, this person just looked up The Dark Knight 15 times over a two-hour span. Perhaps they

03:07:07   just watched The Dark Knight and then that into the journal system. But either way, I hope that

03:07:14   this is a 1.0, both from the app perspective, because I think you and Sirkisa covered that

03:07:18   well. The app is all right. But more importantly, I think, I hope the API is a 1.0 and that we see

03:07:24   more of this over time. Yeah, I think it's more than all right. I think it's, I think it's really

03:07:29   interesting to do it as a social media timeline that's just for yourself. But I also think that

03:07:35   simplicity makes it one of the most gracious Sherlockings in Apple history, where like a

03:07:44   full-featured 15-year and counting or however long, I mean, day one is, might have been around

03:07:51   since like day one of the app store. It's a very long-standing app. I mean, I know you're a

03:07:55   dedicated user. I mean, how long, you've probably got like over a decade in there, right?

03:08:00   Well, I think actually, coincidentally, I'm pretty sure I landed on day one because of the trip that

03:08:05   we went on with the armaments to Germany. And I wanted to be able to log what we were doing,

03:08:10   where we were going, but I wasn't interested in blasting that out to the internet. And I think

03:08:13   that's how I landed on day one originally, and that was 2013. So that was a decade ago to your point.

03:08:18   Yeah. It's just a much richer full-featured app. I don't see, to me, that's like sort of

03:08:25   Sherlocking at its best. And sometimes you can't avoid it, right? It's like, knock on wood,

03:08:30   Overcast seems to be holding its own against Apple Podcasts, but Apple Podcasts has gained features

03:08:37   and it's not trying to kill other apps, but it's podcasting. There's only so many features, right?

03:08:43   I don't think it's surprising that the overall podcast market has shaken out and there's

03:08:48   fewer actively developed podcast players than there used to be. It's just the nature of it.

03:08:54   But Journal, to me, doesn't seem like it's going to kill day one or any of the other popular

03:09:03   journaling apps. If anything, I almost feel like the benefit sometimes to Apple getting into

03:09:07   something like this with a very basic simple app is it introduces more people to the basic idea of,

03:09:14   "Oh, I kind of like entering my thoughts in whatever's every day or every couple days."

03:09:19   But boy, I wish it had X, Y, and Z, and then you find out there's these long-standing,

03:09:24   award-winning apps in the App Store that are meant for journaling that have X, Y, and Z, and then,

03:09:29   "Oh, I'll try that." So I don't know. Kudos to them. I think it's pretty good. And the other thing,

03:09:35   though, I think about Journal, and I wonder, I might be reading too much into it, but

03:09:40   that instead of having a date-based interface, it's just this timeline of entries, and the entries

03:09:47   can be anything. It's sort of, to me, just like a chronological timeline of things hints to a future

03:09:56   where your iPhone can present to you a log of everything you've done in a private, on-device,

03:10:03   not-creepy-at-all way. But man, I don't know, fast-forward 10, 20 years, do you want to have

03:10:09   devices that can just remember everything you've done and seen? Kind of, right? It sounds creepy

03:10:14   in a way, but I feel like once we have it, everybody will be like, "I can't believe I ever

03:10:18   had to remember who people were." Whereas now I've got this device that, as soon as I see a face,

03:10:24   tells me, "Oh, that's so-and-so. You last saw them at this place on this date."

03:10:29   I have a truly terrible memory, and so part of the reason I'm so invested in day one is because

03:10:34   it helps me remember the kind of minutiae of day-to-day stuff, and I try to put at least

03:10:40   one entry in every single day. And most of these are pretty unremarkable, and they're not that

03:10:48   interesting in and of themselves. But one of my favorite things to do when I do it first thing in

03:10:51   the morning is I pick up my phone and I look at, "Okay, what did I do in today—what is today,

03:10:55   the 28th, 29th? What did I do on the 29th in 2022, 2021, 2020?" And when you've got 10 years-ish of

03:11:03   entries, it's such an incredible and wonderful walk down memory lane. And actually, to kind of

03:11:08   bring this full circle, imagine if I had a whole bunch of spatial video in there going back 10

03:11:12   years, you know, or whatever the case may be. So yeah, that's why I like it so much. And yeah,

03:11:16   even though it would be a little creepy having my phone record everything, if I was convinced that

03:11:20   it was a privacy-forward, privacy-first way, I think that'd be kind of nice.

03:11:25   Yeah, I kind of feel like it's both horrifying and I can't wait to have it.

03:11:32   Yeah, I agree. I agree on both counts.

03:11:33   All right, that brings us to the end of the year, and I guess the end of the show. Boy,

03:11:37   this is a good one. This might break some kind of record.

03:11:40   I feel like you and Marco have some very long ones, but I think we're at least in the running now.

03:11:44   Yeah, well, we've all developed our long podcast muscles. I don't have many muscles, but—

03:11:49   [Laughter]

03:11:50   That's the one that's strongest, right?

03:11:52   That's the one that's strongest. Happy New Year, happy holidays.

03:11:55   Happy New Year as well.

03:11:56   I was just a lot of fun talking to you, Casey.

03:11:59   Of course. Likewise. I am always happy to come on and spend three hours with you.

03:12:04   Yeah.

03:12:05   You tell me when.

03:12:07   I will thank our sponsors, our good friends at Memberful, where you can monetize your passion

03:12:11   with membership, and Squarespace, where you or anyone you know can build a website. And one last

03:12:16   call out to CallSheet, Casey's excellent, excellent movie database app. And TV shows,

03:12:24   and TV shows. All right. Happy New Year. All right. Finally, we're done. Thank you.