00:00:00 ◼ ► I cannot believe the work that you put into the show notes. This is clearly why you're on ATP,
00:00:05 ◼ ► because now I've seen the power of the Casey list. Well, truth be told, I did get to listen to Sir
00:00:11 ◼ ► Cusis' episode, which was very good, as expected, and he was not lying. Generally speaking, my
00:00:16 ◼ ► Wednesday mornings are about trying to make sure I've read all the links that, generally speaking,
00:00:22 ◼ ► he has added. Now, of course, I add stuff, Marco adds stuff from time to time. You can tell who's
00:00:26 ◼ ► who, because John has copious notes, exactly as you would expect John to have. I'll have enough
00:00:32 ◼ ► that I can jog my piss-poor memory, and then Marco will have something like "Marco's stuff here,"
00:00:37 ◼ ► which I think is on-brand for all three of us. So anyway, so yeah, so John's characterization was
00:00:45 ◼ ► not unfair. He does add the lion's share of stuff, but like I said to you via text, if I didn't go
00:00:51 ◼ ► through ATP and during Fireball, I would have forgotten every damn thing, and I figured,
00:00:55 ◼ ► worst case, we ignore it. It's not going to hurt anything if we ignore it, as long as something's
00:00:59 ◼ ► down and I've jogged my memory, then mission accomplished. Well, the idea is this is the
00:01:03 ◼ ► talk show year in review for Apple, and you compounded, I would consider it, so it's more
00:01:10 ◼ ► than just like a list of stuff. It's like the index to a book, the book of 2023, which is excellent.
00:01:15 ◼ ► It blows my notes. We have competing show notes and Apple notes. We're not competing, but two
00:01:22 ◼ ► sets. Before we get started, I just wanted to say, while we're talking about the Syracuse episode of
00:01:27 ◼ ► the show, I'm glad you listened, but there was a funny thing that I cut from it. It was sort of,
00:01:34 ◼ ► would have been the equivalent of an after show, which was John brought up the segment on the most
00:01:41 ◼ ► recent ATP where he asked you and Marco, "Do you guys remember the code names for all of the Mac
00:01:48 ◼ ► OS X releases?" And so I guess what had happened, I guess you guys do 52 episodes a year, but you
00:01:56 ◼ ► don't record 52 weeks a year. So you guys recorded this 52nd show of 2023 a week early. It was this
00:02:05 ◼ ► past Thursday. A week ago yesterday, I believe. I think that's right. So, and then I recorded with
00:02:12 ◼ ► John a week ago from today. So I did better than you and Marco. So he quizzed you as well?
00:02:20 ◼ ► Yeah. So it's me trying to name those releases. And, but I didn't want to include it in the show
00:02:28 ◼ ► because I didn't feel it would, you know, he didn't say don't do it, but it was clearly
00:02:31 ◼ ► the after show. I'd already thanked the sponsors and I didn't want to spoil the segment on ATP,
00:02:42 ◼ ► But I've always, I said to John when I was doing it, I've never been a fan of Apple's use of these
00:02:48 ◼ ► names for the Mac OS X releases. I know it was, his blog is gone, so I don't have a link to it, but
00:02:54 ◼ ► remember Wolf Wrench? He had the blog was like Red Shed Software or something like that. Or at least
00:03:02 ◼ ► I don't know, I forget where his blog was, but I remember at one point he blogged that he hated the
00:03:06 ◼ ► name and this was like, I don't know, 2006, 2007, maybe 2008. I don't know. But it was like Obama's
00:03:13 ◼ ► presidency still or like first term or like maybe Obama had just been elected. I don't know. But he
00:03:19 ◼ ► said he couldn't, he hates those names because he can't keep them in order. So he always uses the
00:03:24 ◼ ► numbers and I always do too. It's like my daring fireball style is to say Mac OS 14 Sonoma. So I'll
00:03:30 ◼ ► use the name, but I always include the number too. Cause if I don't include the number, then
00:03:36 ◼ ► if I go back and look at the article one year from now, I'll be like, I don't remember.
00:03:50 ◼ ► cause remember that I came to the Mac in, I want to say it was Tiger? It would have been 2008 ish.
00:04:05 ◼ ► Is it? Okay. Maybe it was Lion. I don't remember. No, I think you are right. I think it might've
00:04:08 ◼ ► been Lion. Whatever it was, whatever big cat it was. My point is I wasn't there early enough for
00:04:13 ◼ ► like 10-0 or anything like that. So I don't have any particular recollection or knowledge as to
00:04:18 ◼ ► how that went, but I think it was just a bunch of momentum. And then, when was it? I guess it was
00:04:23 ◼ ► when they switched to California names. I feel like they were in the peak or valley, depending
00:04:28 ◼ ► on your perspective of dad jokes at Apple, particularly Apple keynotes. And if you remember,
00:04:33 ◼ ► Craig leaned way into our crack sleuths or whatever he called them. And implied if not said,
00:04:39 ◼ ► yeah, crack marketing team and implied if not said that they were all getting high and getting
00:04:42 ◼ ► into Volkswagen bus and driving around California, which I mean, I thought it was funny, but I could
00:04:47 ◼ ► understand the argument that it was garbage. Anyways, I think this was like the peak of them
00:04:51 ◼ ► leaning into the dad joke. And so how could you not have the dad joke of us all getting high and
00:04:56 ◼ ► going on a Volkswagen bus or what have you, but it is odd. I know there's internal code names for
00:05:01 ◼ ► everything, obviously, but it does seem a little weird to me that nothing but Mac OS gets public
00:05:08 ◼ ► marketing names that there are at least nothing that I can think of. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you
00:05:14 ◼ ► said momentum, I guess I'm thinking the same thing. It's tradition and they don't want to
00:05:18 ◼ ► break it. And it seems like there's a little nostalgia for the Steve jobs years. And it was
00:05:27 ◼ ► probably like a Steve thing to give the Mac OS and the cat names and they kind of don't want to break
00:05:33 ◼ ► it. But it is a little weird because it's the Mac. And clearly the crown jewel of their operating
00:05:38 ◼ ► systems is iOS, not Mac OS by nature of the iPhone being so absurdly, ridiculously billion user
00:05:46 ◼ ► popular around the world. But it gets just gets numbers. I don't know the names. I don't know. I'd
00:05:52 ◼ ► rather skip them. But well, if I was the most popular now, but we've got what two months until
00:05:57 ◼ ► vision pro takes over. That's what we're being told, right? Possible. I can't imagine any
00:06:02 ◼ ► scenario where vision OS anything I can't imagine where anything would be as popular as iOS because
00:06:07 ◼ ► but then again, I just lack the imagination to imagine a world post phone, right where the phone
00:06:13 ◼ ► isn't. Well, you use a laptop or an iPad or a laptop and an iPad and a headset and whatever,
00:06:22 ◼ ► and a watch and you have a TV box hooked up to your TV. But everybody has a phone, right? I just
00:06:28 ◼ ► can't imagine moving past that with the names. I do remember the one I remembered. I got tripped up
00:06:34 ◼ ► already by Jaguar, which was 10.2. But the thing I remember and I guess because it was new. I
00:06:42 ◼ ► remember cheetah and panther being the first two. But the reason cheetah really stuck out is it
00:06:49 ◼ ► seemed so clear and obvious that the reason they named 10.0 cheetah was some combination of
00:07:06 ◼ ► Because the single biggest problem with Mac OS 10.0 was it was absurdly profoundly slow
00:07:16 ◼ ► because it was so skating to where what's the Gretzky's getting to where the puck is going,
00:07:24 ◼ ► not where it's right. Yeah, not where it is or where it's been and the graphic system with the
00:07:30 ◼ ► shadows and the transparency layers and everything was so far ahead of the hardware that everything
00:07:37 ◼ ► was slow. It was slow just to drop down a menu from the menu bar. I mean, you could just feel
00:07:42 ◼ ► it and those machines all dual booted in the Mac OS classic, which say what you will about it.
00:07:49 ◼ ► The problem with classic was it had all of these computer science, architectural problems,
00:07:56 ◼ ► because it wasn't a modern quote unquote modern at the time operating system. But one of the nice
00:08:03 ◼ ► things about it was because it had its roots going back to the 80s when it was had to be to even
00:08:10 ◼ ► function so close to the hardware. It was extremely fast at things like updating, you'd click the mouse
00:08:17 ◼ ► and the menu would just draw instantly. I mean, it was fast even by today's standards. You could
00:08:22 ◼ ► boot up like Steven Hackett or something, boot up an old Mac that's 25 years old and certain
00:08:30 ◼ ► things like that are super duper fast. And so the same machine that would feel so slow running Mac
00:08:35 ◼ ► OS 10, you could just reboot and I forget what it was like, hold down option or something like that,
00:08:41 ◼ ► boot into classic instead and it would be super fast. Or you could run the classic apps in Mac OS
00:08:48 ◼ ► 10 and these apps that looked old because they weren't anti-alias, didn't use the modern aqua
00:08:54 ◼ ► graphics. Everything was super fast. So of course they named it Cheetah naturally. How could you not?
00:09:14 ◼ ► Syracuse was on. And then there's certain TikTok things that I remember over the years. Like once
00:09:19 ◼ ► you know which one's lion, you can remember the next one was mountain lion. Leopard and
00:09:31 ◼ ► and it's like, I've been writing about this stuff nonstop over the years, completely. Not that I
00:09:36 ◼ ► didn't recognize the name, but I could have sat there for an hour and not come up with Sierra and
00:09:42 ◼ ► High Sierra, even though there's that's two years where they were sort of a TikTok pair. I could have
00:09:49 ◼ ► 90 minutes to give me two hours all day. I never would have thought of Sierra and High Sierra.
00:09:53 ◼ ► Yeah, I was totally riding on Marco's efforts for that because I couldn't remember a darn thing. And
00:09:59 ◼ ► I think the way John had put it in the show notes was John's question as the third Ask ATP. And that
00:10:05 ◼ ► is literally all we knew. And I had seen this question come by via email and I, you know,
00:10:09 ◼ ► chuckled and thought to myself, oh, there's no way I could do that. And then I moved on with my life.
00:10:13 ◼ ► But John being John, and this is why I love him, he just said, John's question and sprung it on us.
00:10:18 ◼ ► And Marco and I were such a train wreck. It made for a hilarious segment. And so I am glad that
00:10:24 ◼ ► John handled it that way and that we did it and that everyone was a good sport about it,
00:10:27 ◼ ► especially John. But it was a total train wreck. I would say maybe as a New Year's gift to your
00:10:31 ◼ ► listeners or something like that, maybe you could put somewhere your segment with Syracuse and see
00:10:37 ◼ ► it as like a little bonus or something like that, because I think it'll be quite funny.
00:10:49 ◼ ► like you've got something I want to mention, I should have had you on when Call Sheet came out,
00:10:53 ◼ ► but you released an app this year. And ordinarily when I do this show, there's not a lot of
00:10:58 ◼ ► structure to the talk show. But like the sort of self promotion of the thing from the guest would
00:11:04 ◼ ► come at the end. But if we're going to do a year in review, I definitely don't want to save Call
00:11:08 ◼ ► Sheet to the end. I want to do Call Sheet upfront, because year in review can go way too long.
00:11:26 ◼ ► tell people right now, let's get it to do it. What is Call Sheet? Where did the idea come from?
00:11:31 ◼ ► JS Yeah. So Call Sheet in short is my take on how to search for actors, directors, movies, TV shows,
00:11:39 ◼ ► stuff like that, all the things you would use the IMDb app for, but done by somebody who actually
00:11:44 ◼ ► respects their users. And so the IMDb app, while an absolute treasure trove of information, and I
00:11:50 ◼ ► say that without sarcasm, like the amount of information they have is bananas. But using the
00:11:55 ◼ ► app is just terrible. It's just an exercise in frustration, because there's banners everywhere,
00:12:01 ◼ ► there's autoplay videos, every time you load the darn thing, it asks you if you want to log in.
00:12:05 ◼ ► And it's just a mess. And for those of us who are not in the industry, and perhaps don't have
00:12:21 ◼ ► And it was early this year, I think it was in January, maybe it was December of this past year,
00:12:29 ◼ ► I know that there's a thing called the Movie Database, which is a completely Wikipedia-style,
00:12:36 ◼ ► you know, all the contributions are from regular people. And it's really cheap, if not free,
00:12:44 ◼ ► together like my own take on IMDb, and what would that look like? And of course, I started by doing
00:12:50 ◼ ► the nerdy stuff, like seeing if I could talk to the Movie Database and see if that worked. And I
00:12:54 ◼ ► started building a UI over time, and fast forward to August, and I released CallSheet, is what it's
00:13:01 ◼ ► now called, after going through a truly terrible codename. What was the code? Wait, what? I forget
00:13:06 ◼ ► it already. It was a portmanteau of film lookup, so it ended up as Flookup, which was, in true Casey
00:13:12 ◼ ► fashion, a truly terrible codename. But yeah, so it eventually landed on CallSheet. And yeah,
00:13:17 ◼ ► so I released it in August, and it's free to try, you get a week for free, and you also get,
00:13:23 ◼ ► well, I'm getting ahead of myself, you get 20 searches for free, then once you subscribe,
00:13:30 ◼ ► And I like to think it's a pretty solid app. It has a lot of touches that I think are unique.
00:13:38 ◼ ► I thought it would be a very vanilla replacement for IMDb that, again, is respectable of your time
00:13:43 ◼ ► and of my users. But as I got using it, I realized there's some fun things you can do here. And I
00:13:49 ◼ ► don't mean like animations and stuff like that, which I have a little bit of, and they're fine.
00:14:01 ◼ ► which would have been about two years ago now, if I remember correctly, I got spoiled--I won't
00:14:05 ◼ ► spoil it now--but I got spoiled that one of the main characters in the show had a double identity
00:14:09 ◼ ► that you don't know until episode, you know, five or six or something like that, halfway through
00:14:13 ◼ ► the run of the miniseries. And I got spoiled on that because on IMDb, it said Joe Smith,
00:14:20 ◼ ► it plays character A/character B, and I was very upset by this. I'm still a bit triggered by it.
00:14:26 ◼ ► And so it occurred to me what I can do is, particularly for TV shows where there's more
00:14:31 ◼ ► of a progression over time, I can have affordances to hide spoilers. So you could hide episode
00:14:37 ◼ ► thumbnails if you want, you can hide episode titles if you want, you can hide character names,
00:14:41 ◼ ► you can hide how many episodes of characters in. So if you have an occasion where, I don't know,
00:14:45 ◼ ► some superstar is on some show, but they're only on for one episode, then clearly they're
00:14:49 ◼ ► just trying to get attention or whatever, and you obviously know that character was just killed off
00:14:53 ◼ ► immediately or whatever the case may be. And so that became a lot of fun trying to figure out the
00:14:57 ◼ ► right way to handle spoilers and things like that. And then after it was released, one of my other
00:15:02 ◼ ► favorite features of Call Sheet is that--and I don't think I'm a weirdo, maybe I'm a weirdo,
00:15:07 ◼ ► but I've heard a lot of people do the same thing--when I'm looking at, particularly a film,
00:15:11 ◼ ► I often want to know how old were these actors when this was filmed? So, I'm trying to think
00:15:18 ◼ ► of a great example, but say Dark Knight, how old was Gary Oldman when this was filmed? How old
00:15:22 ◼ ► was Heath Ledger when this was filmed? And it occurred to me, well, holy cow, I've got a really
00:15:28 ◼ ► fast computer that this is running on, and I know when the film was released, and I know when all
00:15:33 ◼ ► these people were born, so I can just compute that and just drop it right there on the cast list.
00:15:37 ◼ ► And so if you look through The Dark Knight, you'll see Heath Ledger was such and such years old,
00:15:40 ◼ ► and Gary Oldman was such and such years old, and so on and so forth. And little things like that,
00:15:44 ◼ ► I found, have become far more of an interesting playground than I ever would have expected,
00:15:48 ◼ ► kind of in the spirit of to-do apps or Twitter or, well, now Mastodon clients, what have you,
00:15:52 ◼ ► not to the same degree, but still in a similar spirit. And that's been super-duper fun. And
00:15:58 ◼ ► I'm still--obviously I've been slowed down over the last couple of weeks on account of the holidays,
00:16:02 ◼ ► but I've been dabbling with doing other sorts of things along those lines. And I think that's,
00:16:07 ◼ ► to me, the real selling point to Call Sheet. Not only is it incredibly fast, not only does it not
00:16:12 ◼ ► have ads or pop-ups or anything like that, but it has a lot of these features that someone who
00:16:18 ◼ ► really, really, really cares about this sort of experience would have. And that, to me, is kind
00:16:23 ◼ ► of the selling point. And is it better--is it worth it to you, the listener, to pay money for
00:16:28 ◼ ► something that you could get for free with IMDb? I don't know, but I presume that the people who
00:16:32 ◼ ► listen to this program, they're probably going to want a better experience than the IMDb app.
00:16:37 ◼ ► So that's the tip. Keep selling them, Casey. I mean, I think it's worth it. I really do.
00:16:45 ◼ ► I think you need two things, though. You need to be discerning. But that qualifies sort of the
00:16:51 ◼ ► nice app version of all these things, right? And you mentioned the Twitter and Mastodon clients
00:16:57 ◼ ► and stuff like that. And even if you don't pay for it, even if it's not like Ivory, I know there's a
00:17:01 ◼ ► couple of good third-party Mastodon clients that are free, but it's just to go through the effort
00:17:06 ◼ ► to try something that's not named Mastodon in the app store. And in Mastodon's particular case,
00:17:14 ◼ ► the actual Mastodon is pretty good, right? It's actually definitely not garbage. It's actually
00:17:21 ◼ ► pretty good. So you have to be discerning. But clearly, that's my audience. It's ATP's audience.
00:17:26 ◼ ► Exactly. But then the other thing is you also have to be the sort of person who, when you're
00:17:30 ◼ ► watching TV shows and movies, think of things like, "Oh my God, where did I see this actress
00:17:37 ◼ ► before? I know her, but God, I can't think of where." I need to get the answer to that.
00:17:49 ◼ ► I forget when, I don't know, but at some point fairly recently before CallSheet, within the last,
00:17:57 ◼ ► I'm going to say 18 months before CallSheet was usable at beta and I stopped. But I've had,
00:18:04 ◼ ► on my main favorites on my phone, I had a link to the movie database. And prior to that,
00:18:12 ◼ ► it was a link to IMDb. So some point a year, year and a half before CallSheet, I did the same,
00:18:19 ◼ ► at least as a website, I was like, "Hey, they've got the same information and it's way better
00:18:24 ◼ ► lower noise experience." So I had it on my phone. And CallSheet is better than the movie database
00:18:32 ◼ ► website. It just is. It's nicer. I forget if you already had, maybe you had it under a different
00:18:37 ◼ ► name. I know that one of my contributions, A, was telling you Fluke Up was terrible as a name,
00:18:42 ◼ ► which I guess you didn't mean. And I think, didn't I suggest either renaming the feature
00:19:01 ◼ ► Catoba. Do I have that right? Is that right? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. The dictionary app
00:19:06 ◼ ► that I do with Hockenberry and Will Haynes. So I lifted search history at your suggestion from
00:19:12 ◼ ► there. And yeah, you had, I'm pretty sure it was you, had suggested moving from hearts or favorites
00:19:16 ◼ ► or what have you to pins. And I think that that was a very clever idea in what I ended up doing.
00:19:22 ◼ ► And one of the things on the docket for 2024 is to build that out to be more than just a single
00:19:28 ◼ ► list of pinned items. And maybe there'll be a queue of things you want to watch or your
00:19:32 ◼ ► favorites or whatever. I haven't started that yet, but it's on the list. And another thing that's on
00:19:37 ◼ ► the list that I have started is a lot of people have asked for, and I had also the same idea.
00:19:43 ◼ ► Well, I know that there was a movie that had Heath Ledger and Gary Oldman. What was that?
00:19:55 ◼ ► what properties or what films and TV shows were these two people in together? And I think that'll
00:20:01 ◼ ► be super duper useful. That's on the docket for hopefully early this coming year as we record this
00:20:06 ◼ ► anyway. So that, that I think will be really powerful. Yeah. The use case for pinning isn't
00:20:11 ◼ ► so important to me for movies. Sometimes I'll just pin a movie to know that I want to watch it going
00:20:17 ◼ ► forward. I have a couple here, but for the most part, I just use pinning for the shows I'm
00:20:22 ◼ ► currently watching. So literally as I'm talking to you right now, I'm looking at it here on my iPad.
00:20:27 ◼ ► I'm going to unpin slow horses because I just finished season three. And then I will add it
00:20:32 ◼ ► again when season four comes out. But for the shows you're watching, either you're just,
00:20:47 ◼ ► it's one episode a week, like the, for all mankind and what else I have here, a monarch,
00:20:52 ◼ ► which isn't bad. That's the Godzilla show. Apple TV has it's about as good as a Godzilla show could
00:20:57 ◼ ► be, but I just pin those. And then I know that I can go back to them and it, I mean, it's not
00:21:04 ◼ ► just cause you're on the show. It's an app I use almost every day because I all I always watch TV
00:21:10 ◼ ► late at night. And I always think of stupid things like who is this? Where else have I seen them?
00:21:16 ◼ ► What else have they been in or how old are they? Or I don't know, something like that. And I love
00:21:21 ◼ ► having it on my phone. Used to do it on the web and now I've got it in an app and it's, it's
00:21:27 ◼ ► terrific. And it seems from your recent discussion on ATP that it's doing pretty well. Yeah. Yeah,
00:21:32 ◼ ► I mean, certainly my most successful app and admittedly the stuff that predated it a couple,
00:21:38 ◼ ► there were a couple of kind of toy apps and then there was one called vignette that was pretty
00:21:42 ◼ ► popular, but it was a flash in the pan because it relied on a bunch of social networks to not close
00:21:55 ◼ ► call sheets done is at least as well, if not better than I had hoped. Obviously more is always
00:22:00 ◼ ► better when it comes to these sorts of things, but it's been doing really, really well. I've been
00:22:04 ◼ ► very thankful for it. And if call sheet is kind of funny, cause it's one of those apps that if I've
00:22:07 ◼ ► done my job right, you spend very little time within it. You go in, you figure out what you
00:22:12 ◼ ► want to figure out, and then you bounce right back out. And that means I've done my job well.
00:22:17 ◼ ► And my interest is doing exactly that as opposed to an IMDB where Amazon just wants to sell you
00:22:23 ◼ ► junk, be it streaming stuff or DVDs or Blu-rays or what have you. I don't think that Amazon's
00:22:33 ◼ ► my interests and my users' interests are very much aligned. Another great example of something
00:22:37 ◼ ► that I get to do that I don't think Amazon would ever do is it's not really possible with the just
00:22:42 ◼ ► basic Apple TV stuff. But if you're watching something within Plex or within another app
00:22:48 ◼ ► that I really love called Channels, which is kind of a computer-based DVR, you can optionally in
00:22:52 ◼ ► call sheet turn on like a sync with them such that you don't have to log into anything. It will ask
00:22:59 ◼ ► on your network, "Hey, are there any Plex players or any Channels players playing things right now?"
00:23:04 ◼ ► And if any of them respond, it'll drop those properties right there on that first screen
00:23:09 ◼ ► peer to your pinned items. And so if you're watching, I don't know, For All Mankind on,
00:23:14 ◼ ► it wouldn't be on Channels, but for the, I don't know, or maybe like Hollywood Squares or something
00:23:18 ◼ ► like that, Jeopardy. It could wind up on Plex eventually. It could. One could figure out a way
00:23:25 ◼ ► to put it on Plex. That is a good point. But yeah, so it would pop up right there and you would even
00:23:38 ◼ ► with Ice Cubes, with a bunch of note-taking apps. It was true of Vesper, you know, RIP. You get to
00:23:44 ◼ ► do these sorts of fun things that a bigger corporation will never ever tackle. That to me
00:23:48 ◼ ► is where the fun is, both for users and for me. Right. Because there's no way. I'm glad to hear
00:23:54 ◼ ► CallSheet is pretty popular and there's obviously room to grow, right? Oh yeah, definitely. You
00:24:00 ◼ ► know, there's more people who haven't heard of it than have heard of it yet. And you've got tons of
00:24:06 ◼ ► runway for features you want to add, right? It's always a good sign. But it's clearly never going
00:24:12 ◼ ► to be an app with a billion users, right? It's just not. And it's so much of our whole racket,
00:24:21 ◼ ► I think, over the last, maybe the iPhone era, I don't know. I don't think indie development
00:24:28 ◼ ► is dying, but I don't think indie development is as thriving as it once was. Even though there's
00:24:34 ◼ ► more people using more devices and it's like, I just a sort of too many people thinking only about
00:24:42 ◼ ► billion user ideas as opposed to just how well you can do as a very smaller one person operation with
00:24:51 ◼ ► tens of thousands of users or something on several orders of magnitude lower scale. And
00:24:58 ◼ ► Apple's not going to do this, right? They're not going to make something this integrated.
00:25:02 ◼ ► And it is kind of, if they were, right? Like to me, one of the danger zones for you would be,
00:25:10 ◼ ► and I don't think it's ever going to happen because everything is spread across so many apps.
00:25:22 ◼ ► We do have it, but I can't think of anything that I've ever watched within Prime Video or
00:25:28 ◼ ► oh, no, that's not true. There was the three guys that did Top Gear did a show called the Grand Tour
00:25:32 ◼ ► some of us back. I love that show. Yep. And I did watch that, but that was the only thing I
00:25:37 ◼ ► think I've ever watched on Prime Video. I know that there's, I don't want to go off on a tangent
00:25:41 ◼ ► on it, but I, my son and I love the Grand Tour. I know that there's a lot of people who think that
00:25:46 ◼ ► their best shows were behind them. And what was the, I even forget the Top Gear era, but I, we,
00:25:54 ◼ ► my son and I absolutely loved, or still do, because they do specials. Like they sort of
00:26:00 ◼ ► stopped doing the regular thing, but they do specials. And I kind of, in addition to the fact
00:26:04 ◼ ► that I just liked it myself, it actually occupies a special place in my heart because it's like from
00:26:09 ◼ ► Jonas's teenage years, it's one of our favorite shared shows that just the two of us watch. Amy
00:26:16 ◼ ► has zero interest in that show. I had a friend, you remember the park 55 in San Francisco, which
00:26:23 ◼ ► I forget if that closed or not. I don't know. I believe it was bought. I don't remember what
00:26:28 ◼ ► it's called now, but I think it was bought and it was somebody else. Park 55 is such a hilarious,
00:26:32 ◼ ► I mean, speaking of tangents, it was such a hilarious situation because it was where all
00:26:36 ◼ ► of our kind of crowd ended up staying for the San Franciscan WWDCs. And it was one of those things
00:26:41 ◼ ► where like it was the best balance of hilariously, but not exorbitantly expensive and yet sort of
00:26:48 ◼ ► nice and sort of proximal to or close to Moscone, but any other, in any other scenario, it would be
00:26:56 ◼ ► a total crap hole for way too much money. And yet somehow we all kind of converged onto it.
00:27:00 ◼ ► And it had a giant lobby slash extended bar area. So in those scenarios, like at a Mac world or WWDC
00:27:13 ◼ ► where somebody could put on Twitter, Hey, we're all hanging out at the park 55. And all of a
00:27:18 ◼ ► sudden 15 more people come in. There was room and you could just, you know, there was room for
00:27:23 ◼ ► something like that. And very, very few hotels had anything like that. But our friend Scott Simpson,
00:27:29 ◼ ► I'll never forget it. His description of it was like, it was the nicest hotel in communist Poland.
00:27:44 ◼ ► it was this concrete or it is this concrete brutalist exterior. It's like the communist era's
00:27:53 ◼ ► idea of a nice Western hotel, but they've never been to one. So they get lots of little things
00:27:58 ◼ ► wrong, but they actually do try. And so it is nice. But it's just so weird. It was just so weird.
00:28:05 ◼ ► That's what the Prime Video app is like. It's like the nicest streaming app in Russia right now. And
00:28:10 ◼ ► they have no access to the actual good apps like Netflix and Macs and TV Plus. They hear about how
00:28:18 ◼ ► they're arranged and how they put elements on screen. But it's all flat. And it all looks like
00:28:25 ◼ ► placeholder elements like the developer, even to the splash screen when you just launch the app,
00:28:31 ◼ ► it doesn't look like it was made by a graphic designer. It looks like something that was just
00:28:35 ◼ ► the developer just stubbed in. And you can practically see how the file name would be like
00:28:43 ◼ ► realarttocome.png. But the one thing that the Prime app does that nobody else even tries to do is,
00:28:56 ◼ ► I forget what they call it, it's called X-ray or something like that. And you can pause a show or
00:29:03 ◼ ► a movie and they make it so hard on Apple TV. It's like you have to go up and into a thing, but you
00:29:10 ◼ ► can just pause a movie and the X-ray will tell you which actors are in the frame you just paused on.
00:29:24 ◼ ► B.B. I know they bought it way back in the '90s or prehistory of the internet, but they have this
00:29:31 ◼ ► data source for this stuff. It's sort of like an accessibility feature, making sure you have closed
00:29:36 ◼ ► captions for everything and in a bunch of languages and somebody goes through and marks every scene
00:29:44 ◼ ► with, I got them, maybe it's not the frame, but the scene, so that if there's like a two-shot
00:29:55 ◼ ► which scratches the same itch as call sheet. Like, who is this? Who are these people? But the
00:30:00 ◼ ► interface is so bad that it actually, even when I'm watching something on Prime Video, it is way
00:30:05 ◼ ► easier to just take my phone off. Because of call sheet and for this, I don't even put my phone back
00:30:11 ◼ ► in my pocket watching TV. I just keep it next to me on the couch. It's so much easier to just pick
00:30:15 ◼ ► up my phone and look it up there than to actually go through and try to do it in Prime. That would
00:30:21 ◼ ► be the place to do it, would be in app. But also, it would add clutter. I don't think Apple's going
00:30:28 ◼ ► to do that with TV+ and add an X-ray feature to it. So I feel like it's a good idea, but also
00:30:36 ◼ ► sort of Sherlock-proof. You know? I hope so. Don't jinx me. Well, I hope not to jinx you. But anyway,
00:30:42 ◼ ► so what's the price again? It's very, very reasonable price. I wasn't, oh gosh, I didn't
00:30:46 ◼ ► even think about this in months. I think it's nine, I don't even know. I think it's $9 a year
00:30:51 ◼ ► or something like that. And a dollar a month, I believe, if memory serves. It's been so long
00:30:56 ◼ ► since I've thought about any of this. So I think that's really, extremely reasonably priced. I
00:31:01 ◼ ► would say it's a steal. So yeah, well, for the record, if one of your listeners is just,
00:31:06 ◼ ► their socks are blown off by how good CallSheet is, which should be every one of your listeners.
00:31:10 ◼ ► But nevertheless, you can, there's an option in there labeled more purchase options. And as you're
00:31:16 ◼ ► going through the purchasing flow, and you can optionally give me more than $9 a year, and you
00:31:21 ◼ ► can choose to give me, I think it's $20 or $50 a year, which buys you nothing but my undying love.
00:31:27 ◼ ► And that is the only thing you get. You get no other perks. That's it. But a surprising number,
00:31:34 ◼ ► opted into doing that. It's kind of sort of like a recurring tip jar. And it's the same thing,
00:31:42 ◼ ► can I pay you more? And it's extraordinarily kind, just impossibly kind of these people. And
00:31:48 ◼ ► who am I to stand in the way? So there's that option as well, if you're so inclined. But yeah,
00:31:52 ◼ ► CallSheet's a pretty darn good app. I think I feel comfortable saying so now, an award winning app,
00:31:57 ◼ ► I just won an upgradey. Sorry if I'm spoiling, but I won the upgradey this year for best newcomer iOS
00:32:02 ◼ ► app, which I was extremely flattered by. So it is an award winning iOS app. Thank you very much.
00:32:07 ◼ ► So you can check that out. I also think one last thing about it that I think makes it really
00:32:11 ◼ ► suitable as an idea for you as a one person development operation is there's really no need
00:32:19 ◼ ► for it to become a Mac app, or like an Apple TV app or a watch app, right? You've got the iPhone
00:32:26 ◼ ► version, which to me is primary, because it's an idea that you most want to use on your phone.
00:32:31 ◼ ► And I don't think you've done a lot of work for the iPad layout. It's sort of just scaled up,
00:32:37 ◼ ► but it's almost none at first. Now I've done more than none, but your characterization of
00:32:42 ◼ ► not a lot is pretty good. But the concept suits what you've done for the iPad. If I had my iPad
00:32:51 ◼ ► next to me because my phone ran out of batteries or wasn't with me or whatever, I'm looking at the
00:32:56 ◼ ► iPad app right now as I speak to you. And it's great. It really is, the idea is suitable to a
00:33:03 ◼ ► not much work to fit the iPad instead of the phone layout. There's so many ideas where you really,
00:33:09 ◼ ► I mean, Vesper is a perfect example where one of the reasons the app failed was it really needed
00:33:14 ◼ ► a great Mac app alongside the iPhone app and syncing between all of them. And we just ran out
00:33:21 ◼ ► of time before we ran out of money before we got to it. And this is an app that it's just great as
00:33:30 ◼ ► an iPhone and iPad app. And you've got syncing, I guess you use cloud kit or something.
00:33:40 ◼ ► your spoiler settings should sync, your pins should sync. I forget what I think some basic
00:33:46 ◼ ► JS History, search history syncs. Because I've never conducted, I've never done a search on my
00:33:58 ◼ ► it's, I tried, I've tried real hard to make it fit for all the sorts of use cases that I can think
00:34:04 ◼ ► of. And yeah, I think it's primarily to me a phone app, because typically I'm on the couch. And yeah,
00:34:09 ◼ ► I'll often have an iPad next to me. But typically I'm watching my TV, I have my phone in my hand,
00:34:16 ◼ ► Apple Silicon support, I don't know, a month or two after it had come out. And that's fine. Like,
00:34:22 ◼ ► I personally don't see it as a particularly great Mac app. But a lot of people have asked for it,
00:34:31 ◼ ► TV shows on their Macs. Yeah, fair enough. If you're watching it on your laptop, as you're
00:34:36 ◼ ► watching device in a dorm or for whatever reason, then yeah, you want it on the Mac. But it's and
00:34:41 ◼ ► again, it's fine for that, like a, it's just the iPad app running auto, or just flipping the bit
00:34:47 ◼ ► that says you're allowed to do it. It really is a concept where you don't really need the stuff that
00:34:51 ◼ ► makes a true Mac app. Mac asked to use. Yeah, I mean, it is not a Mac asked Mac app, but I don't
00:34:57 ◼ ► think it's but it doesn't need to be. Right? No, and I say this as a staunch a proponent of Mac
00:35:03 ◼ ► asked Mac apps as there is, but it to me, it's exactly the sort of concept that catalyst was made
00:35:09 ◼ ► for right. And it's better than a website. I think that's why you're getting requests for it. Yep,
00:35:14 ◼ ► exactly. I mean, over time, I will probably make you know, iPad better and Mac better. And you
00:35:19 ◼ ► certainly have started work on the vision pro thing, because I can envision a world where you've
00:35:24 ◼ ► got your screen within the vision pro and you have this like hanging off to the side or whatever the
00:35:29 ◼ ► case may be. And I think it does suit itself to that. And I've done a bit of work with that
00:35:34 ◼ ► against the simulator and so on and so forth. But we'll see it's the good news is I have enough
00:35:39 ◼ ► ideas in enough different things I want to do with the app that I'm kind of nervous about figuring out
00:35:45 ◼ ► the correct order of operations and being able to land all of it in the time I want. I mean,
00:35:49 ◼ ► that's a wonderful problem to have. But it's still a problem. I got to figure out what's
00:35:54 ◼ ► number one priority and when how quickly can I get all this done? Because it is just me,
00:35:58 ◼ ► I can. And I know that I, it's funny, I didn't think about vision. But it makes sense. Because
00:36:02 ◼ ► obviously, out of the gate next year, one of the primary things people are going to do with vision
00:36:09 ◼ ► pro is watch TV and movies. I mean, it's I've never watched a full show. I'm because I've never
00:36:15 ◼ ► had enough time to do it in the demos. But it is super, super compelling as a movie and TV thing.
00:36:21 ◼ ► It's, I mean, it's you can imagine anybody who even somebody who's never tried any of these
00:36:32 ◼ ► that blows away any TV you could possibly buy or fit in the house would be super compelling.
00:36:40 ◼ ► But it's also the case that I think once you're in it, you're not it'd be like you can I know from my
00:36:48 ◼ ► demo time, you can look down and read your watch and you can look at your phone. But it seems like
00:36:54 ◼ ► the immersiveness of vision OS is that such that if you are watching a movie and you'd want to do
00:37:00 ◼ ► something like look up something in call sheet, having call sheet in the virtual environment would
00:37:04 ◼ ► be important. So I would say it's probably the second most important platform for you going
00:37:09 ◼ ► forward. I know you said you know this and you've been working. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of
00:37:14 ◼ ► questions to whether or not you can put a third party app in an immersive environment because
00:37:19 ◼ ► the way the API's are set. And I haven't looked at this in a couple of months. But my recollection is
00:37:24 ◼ ► there's basically 2d stuff where it's all shared and you have this virtual world of 2d things all
00:37:29 ◼ ► around you. There's 3d stuff, which is still in the virtual world. And there's terms that Apple has
00:37:35 ◼ ► for these. I think it's I forget what the 2d stuff is. And it's volumes, I believe is what they call
00:37:40 ◼ ► the 3d stuff. And then there's immersive experiences, which is the way I suspect they've
00:37:45 ◼ ► implemented watching TV and stuff like that. And I don't know if I can put vision pro or excuse me,
00:37:51 ◼ ► I don't know if I can put a call sheet in an immersive experience, because generally speaking,
00:37:54 ◼ ► immersive experiences are kind of Singleton's, if you will, in that that is the only thing you're
00:38:00 ◼ ► doing at the time, but it's worth investigating. And even if that's true, you would want to be
00:38:04 ◼ ► able to just hop down out of your pretend movie theater and have call sheet waiting and look good
00:38:09 ◼ ► right then and there. Yeah. I also it occurred to me thinking about this as we wrap it up that
00:38:16 ◼ ► it is everybody. It's like the Louis C.K. bit about complaining about air airplane Wi Fi. And
00:38:28 ◼ ► it's you're flying across the country at 400 miles an hour, 40,000 feet up with a computer in your
00:38:36 ◼ ► hand and you're getting the internet in your hand. And yet you want to complain about how bad things
00:38:42 ◼ ► are. And it's like, I, I'm old enough, you're younger than me, but you I'm sure you remember
00:38:47 ◼ ► from childhood where if you wanted to know who an actor was tough luck, if you didn't know, right?
00:38:53 ◼ ► What were you going to do? Right? You there weren't even books, you know, like I remember
00:38:58 ◼ ► I have I still love it. I don't really refer to it, but it was a great book. But Roger Ebert had
00:39:04 ◼ ► Roger Ebert's great movies and he'd updated I don't know if it was every year, but every
00:39:08 ◼ ► couple years. And it was like super thick, hundreds and hundreds of pages with like short versions of
00:39:15 ◼ ► his reviews from all of these movies. And when you had like a decades long movie reviewing career,
00:39:40 ◼ ► You know what I mean? You'd have to fast forward to the credits and ask your parents, but
00:39:44 ◼ ► that means you'd have to sit there and listen to the tape. You'd have to figure out how to get
00:39:49 ◼ ► back to where you were. Yeah. Never just jump ahead to the credits with the tape. No, it was
00:39:53 ◼ ► impossible. You you're just out of luck. You'd never know. Yep. And then the funny thing is my
00:39:58 ◼ ► dad was an audio file or is an audio file and he was a very technical technologically forward guy.
00:40:03 ◼ ► And we had a laser disc player in the house and that's all well and good because then you could
00:40:08 ◼ ► skip forward unless you're on the first half of the movie and the read head had to go and flip
00:40:14 ◼ ► over to the other side of the laser disc, which literally took 30 seconds. So you're watching a
00:40:18 ◼ ► movie halfway through the movie. It says the switching sides and the whole read apparatus
00:40:23 ◼ ► internal to the laser disc player has to go from the bottom to the top. It was a completely cockamamie
00:40:28 ◼ ► technology, but it was amazing. My uncle Jack, my mom's brother was, or it is, I should, again,
00:40:33 ◼ ► I shouldn't put him in the past yet, but he was the gadget head had, I forget what it was. It was
00:40:38 ◼ ► like a video game. I was so young. I mean, this would be like 1976 or seven or something. It was
00:40:44 ◼ ► before Atari 2,600 came out, but he had a video game that just played Pong, but you could play a
00:40:50 ◼ ► video game on my uncle Jack's TV. I was blown away. I mean, I'm like, Oh my God, how is this
00:40:55 ◼ ► possible? I'm controlling a rectangle on the TV. He had a laser disc player and I of course was
00:41:03 ◼ ► blown away by the quality, but it was so frustrating because my uncle Jack did not live
00:41:10 ◼ ► like he lived like, I don't know, an hour and a half away or something. So I'd see him a couple
00:41:14 ◼ ► times a year, but it wasn't like I got to live with his gadgetry. So I would get a taste of this
00:41:20 ◼ ► amazing stuff, video games on your TV, laser disc quality movies, and then go back home. And we
00:41:25 ◼ ► didn't even have a VCR yet. It was so funny with lasers player too, because it was such an unusual
00:41:31 ◼ ► gadget. And so my dad's favorite thing would, you know, when people would come over would be to hand
00:41:35 ◼ ► them the remote control and the remote control, the top three quarters of it looked like any other
00:41:40 ◼ ► remote control you'd find in the mid nineties or whatever it was early to mid nineties. But the
00:41:43 ◼ ► bottom had a full jog wheel on it, like a whole, almost like iPod style wheel. One of the cool
00:41:49 ◼ ► things about lasers, yeah, you could go frame by frame. So you could like seek forward and back,
00:41:55 ◼ ► and it would just blow people's minds when that happened. And I remember he always used to like
00:42:00 ◼ ► zoom to one of the fight scenes in Top Gun where the plane comes from behind and comes over you.
00:42:05 ◼ ► And you would hear the surround sound. This was like the world's crappiest surround sound in our
00:42:09 ◼ ► setup was not terribly remarkable, but nobody had their first round sound set up in the early 90s.
00:42:13 ◼ ► And so you would hear this plane come over your head and then you would go and like freeze frame
00:42:18 ◼ ► it. And it was such a dorky thing to do, but you know, this is how I come by and I come by it very
00:42:29 ◼ ► didn't start until I got out of college. Right. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our
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00:42:39 ◼ ► you can go if you have an audience or if you want to build an audience and you can monetize
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00:45:13 ◼ ► All right, here we are 40 minutes in. Time to get to the year in review. I told you we should do,
00:45:17 ◼ ► told you I was right. Good thing we did. Good thing that we did call sheet first. I don't know
00:45:24 ◼ ► which way to do it. I don't know if we should go chronologically. I guess we usually go by month,
00:45:30 ◼ ► but I was thinking we could go by product. I guess it makes the most sense to just go through
00:45:41 ◼ ► Well, let me ask you sitting here now, not having gone through the litany of links that you and I
00:45:51 ◼ ► do you think this was a good year for them or do you think it was kind of meh? Where do you sit?
00:45:55 ◼ ► But then actually maybe we should revisit this at the end of the episode and see if you change your
00:45:59 ◼ ► mind. But where are you sitting now? That's a good question. I would say thumbs up. Let me say this.
00:46:07 ◼ ► I thought about this too. I mentioned Ebert in his book and I just read an article the other day. I
00:46:12 ◼ ► guess I should try to find it and put it in show notes, but it was something about how we collectively
00:46:17 ◼ ► miss Siskel and Ebert. Can you name any movie critics right now? No, absolutely not. I can't
00:46:24 ◼ ► off the top of my head either. And it's not to besmirch any working film critics. It's just that
00:46:31 ◼ ► Siskel and Ebert were so exceptional and just so famous. I mean, they were on like the Carson
00:46:38 ◼ ► show and Letterman all the time. Supposedly, I mean, I don't know if it's apocryphal or not,
00:46:42 ◼ ► but it's supposedly it's because of Siskel and Ebert that the Letterman set had two chairs next
00:46:47 ◼ ► to the desk instead of just one. Carson had a couch because Ed McMahon was always at the end
00:46:53 ◼ ► of the couch. And in his show, in the earlier years, the guests would stay on for the whole,
00:46:58 ◼ ► like the first guest would stay and you just slide down the couch and the new guests would come out.
00:47:02 ◼ ► But Letterman show didn't work like that. But supposedly he had two chairs because Siskel and
00:47:07 ◼ ► Ebert were on all the time. So they just- I did not know that. I don't know if that's true or not,
00:47:10 ◼ ► but it's a fun story. But unquestionably, they were an institution. If there was ever a use case
00:47:15 ◼ ► or case study in that turn of phrase that somebody is an in-s- or a group is an institution, I think
00:47:20 ◼ ► it's Siskel and Ebert 100%. I mean, they were an institution for sure. And they had the gist of the
00:47:26 ◼ ► article I'm thinking about. Again, I'm jotting this down to put it in the show notes. But that
00:47:31 ◼ ► they took movies seriously and they were astute film critics, but they also were not highfalutin
00:47:38 ◼ ► or literary. They knew why Steven Spielberg's movies were incredibly popular. And they weren't
00:47:45 ◼ ► to compare and contrast with Pauline Kael, who was the famed New Yorker film critic of the '70s. This
00:47:53 ◼ ► era when the Coppola and Scorsese and I guess Spielberg and Lucas first were in their 20s,
00:47:59 ◼ ► but becoming a name. I've read some of her reviews going back. And I guess Quentin Tarantino's a huge
00:48:06 ◼ ► fan. Supposedly his next, supposedly last movie, the film critic is sort of a Romana clef about her.
00:48:13 ◼ ► But it's- and I like the New Yorker. I subscribed to the New Yorker. But her approach to film
00:48:22 ◼ ► criticism was a little New Yorkery. If you know what I mean. Whereas Siskel and Ebert were like,
00:48:27 ◼ ► "Get some popcorn. Let's get some popcorn and a soda and watch Raiders of the Lost Ark. Not,
00:48:32 ◼ ► let's watch a Scandinavian art film that's black and white." Well, Das Boot is a pretty good action
00:48:40 ◼ ► movie. Did you say that? Is that what you said? Yeah, that is what I said. I actually haven't seen
00:48:44 ◼ ► it, which is funny because I'm such a complete dedicated fan of Hunt for October. And I actually
00:48:49 ◼ ► really like Crimson Tide as well. But I've never seen Das Boot. I think I watched a bit of it when
00:48:53 ◼ ► I was way too young to be able to put up with the subtitles and whatnot. I should give it another
00:48:57 ◼ ► shot. I used that. That should be your homework. I just tried. I just told you. I just was- I haven't
00:49:01 ◼ ► seen it in a long time. But Jonas was talking to me about the movie where Harrison Ford's the
00:49:07 ◼ ► president- Air Force One. Yes. Well, there's also Harrison Ford's sub movie. Was it like K19,
00:49:12 ◼ ► The Widowmaker or something like that? I forget what it was called. But yes, Air Force One was
00:49:15 ◼ ► actually with Gary Oldman that we were talking about earlier. Yes. But the director is Wolfgang
00:49:19 ◼ ► Peterson. And Jonas was like, "That movie was so much better than I thought it would be." And I
00:49:24 ◼ ► say, "It is a good movie." I haven't seen that one in a while either. I said, "Wolfgang Peterson's
00:49:29 ◼ ► masterpiece is Das Boot." I didn't realize it was him. Okay, fair enough. It is in German,
00:49:35 ◼ ► so you have to be able to put up with subtitles. And I love the- You've got the Hunt for Red October
00:49:40 ◼ ► as an Easter egg on the icon for Call Sheet. I'm a huge fan of that movie too. But I think Das Boot
00:49:45 ◼ ► is the submarine. That's fair. I think most people would agree with you. Yeah. But I don't know. But
00:49:50 ◼ ► where I'm going with the Cisco and the Ebert thing though is I think one under remarked upon aspect
00:49:58 ◼ ► of their phenomenal success with their TV show was their thumbs up, thumbs down system. Not five
00:50:07 ◼ ► stars, four stars, three stars, or letter grades like A, B, C, D. Just thumbs up, thumbs down. And
00:50:16 ◼ ► they didn't even have a thing in the middle like a wishy washy. It was okay. There was no okay.
00:50:22 ◼ ► They forced themselves to just say thumbs up or thumbs down. And then the best a movie could do
00:50:34 ◼ ► the one who liked it couldn't overrule and say, "Well, I'm giving it both of my thumbs." So,
00:50:39 ◼ ► right? So, that's what I was thinking with Apple's year is instead of giving letter grades,
00:50:47 ◼ ► which I'll save for Jason Snell's report card. There's a place for that too for fine-grained,
00:50:52 ◼ ► pretty good, but not great. We just do thumbs up, thumbs down. I would say overall for Apple,
00:50:58 ◼ ► I would give it a thumbs up for the year, but I don't know why. So, it's funny. I'm looking at
00:51:04 ◼ ► the list of links that you had amassed and looking at it, I feel like I agree that the year is a
00:51:11 ◼ ► thumbs up. And I would probably say this without reservation, but I would have to think about it.
00:51:17 ◼ ► But what I will say is I think it becomes an emphatic thumbs up in the bottom half of the
00:51:22 ◼ ► year for me. Come iPhone 15, come a new MacBook Pros, M3 processor. I think I was still leaning
00:51:29 ◼ ► thumbs up even before all that, but particularly the bottom half to third or third to half of the
00:51:35 ◼ ► year is where it becomes an emphatic thumbs up. And I think it was a great year for Apple.
00:51:39 ◼ ► But up until, I think the first half of the year was kind of a snooze and we'll convince ourselves
00:51:44 ◼ ► we're wrong in the next few minutes. But I'm not that impressed with the beginning of the year.
00:51:48 ◼ ► And then WWDC and the Vision Pro announcement, okay, now we're starting to get somewhere. And
00:51:52 ◼ ► then the hardware that actually did launch in the tail end of the year, I think was excellent. I
00:51:55 ◼ ► mean, I'm talking to you on a M3 MacBook Pro and I am in love with this computer. I freaking adore
00:52:00 ◼ ► it. And same story with my iPhone. It's a great phone. And so I think bottom half of the year gets
00:52:04 ◼ ► me comfortably into a thumbs up, but I'd probably still do it even for the top half of the year too.
00:52:32 ◼ ► so we can just start in January and say Apple's January started with the M2 Pro and Mac's MacBook
00:52:40 ◼ ► Pros and what the Mac mini, I think, which I guess is still the current Mac mini. I believe
00:52:45 ◼ ► that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That was Apple's January. And I think in hindsight, I think we can just
00:52:54 ◼ ► sort of say, well, it's sort of downwind effects of COVID really and the lockdown and everything
00:53:01 ◼ ► else. Like in hindsight, it doesn't make any sense at all that they introduced M2 MacBook Pros in
00:53:11 ◼ ► January and then M3 MacBook Pros a full generation ahead in October, except that to think that those
00:53:20 ◼ ► M2 models were supposed to ship at least three or four months earlier, and it should have been a
00:53:26 ◼ ► 2022 thing, not a 2023 thing, but they weren't going to scrap them. Right. Surely once Apple knew
00:53:35 ◼ ► that those machines weren't going to ship at the end of last year, they were going to ship early
00:53:42 ◼ ► 2023. They also surely by that time knew that the M3 models were on scheduled to ship later this
00:53:50 ◼ ► year. And all things considered, it kind of sucks to buy a brand new MacBook Pro in January and have
00:53:58 ◼ ► it be a generation behind 10 months later. That almost harks back to the '80s and '90s of the PC
00:54:06 ◼ ► era, right? It was like infamous. And it was one thing that was true on the Mac and PC side. It
00:54:18 ◼ ► It's 100% accurate. I mean, that was when I was cutting my teeth and all this, and it was
00:54:22 ◼ ► absolutely true. It was instant. The moment you bought something, it was out of date and a piece
00:54:26 ◼ ► of crap. And it was exciting. It was a phenomenal time to be a fan of this sort of thing, but it was
00:54:32 ◼ ► also somewhat depressing because no matter what, you feel like a little bit of buyer's remorse
00:54:36 ◼ ► within a month of buying whatever it is you just bought. Yeah. You break the bank to get a computer
00:54:41 ◼ ► with a 40 megabyte hard disk. And six months later, it was cheaper to get an 80 megabyte hard
00:54:48 ◼ ► disk. And even 80 was so little. You can laugh, especially if you're younger, and think that
00:54:56 ◼ ► megabytes is a ridiculous number for a drive size. But it was all of us, everybody who was a computer
00:55:03 ◼ ► enthusiast, didn't matter which size drive you had, your drive was always 98% full because you
00:55:11 ◼ ► wished you'd have like today's size drives that are measured in terabytes instead of just skip
00:55:17 ◼ ► the gigabytes, just go right to terabyte. But it sort of harks back to that where it's like,
00:55:22 ◼ ► oh, you'd like to think you get a full year of being on the king of the hill. But I think those
00:55:29 ◼ ► M2 MacBook Pros were just downwind of delays from COVID and they weren't going to skip the whole
00:55:35 ◼ ► generation, but they wound up because they were late and the M3s, I guess, arrived on time,
00:55:41 ◼ ► they didn't have all that long in the sun. But the only other hardware Apple released in the first
00:55:48 ◼ ► half of the year were the yellow iPhone 14s. I mean, that's it, I think. It was slow. I can't
00:55:53 ◼ ► hope to go back a step just for a moment. I can't help but wonder, and this is based on no inside or
00:55:59 ◼ ► anything. If I were in Apple shoes and I'm looking at the three nanometer process for the M3 and
00:56:04 ◼ ► thinking, is this really going to land, especially since I'm beholden to TSMC to land it, I can't
00:56:11 ◼ ► help but wonder if they were looking in January and said, well, we could wait and just skip the
00:56:16 ◼ ► M2 for the MacBook Pro and roll the dice and just see how it works out for the M3. But knowing what
00:56:22 ◼ ► seems to have bled out from the supply chain, particularly around three nanometer, it seemed
00:56:27 ◼ ► like it was a very dodgy, not at all guarantee to land in this year, especially land not only for
00:56:33 ◼ ► Macs, but for iPhones too. So it wouldn't surprise me if they were like, well, let's get this out the
00:56:37 ◼ ► door just to play it safe, even though in a perfect world where we know exactly without a doubt when
00:56:41 ◼ ► the M3 lands, maybe we would just shelve it and wait. I don't know. It's just a guess, but it's
00:56:46 ◼ ► the end of reason. And maybe the other thing that the whole COVID experience taught all of us is
00:56:54 ◼ ► reminded us that unexpected things can always happen. And you know that it's all true. It's
00:57:00 ◼ ► the reason you buy life insurance is the reason you buy car insurance, reason you have homeowners
00:57:04 ◼ ► insurance or renters insurance. Everybody knows, well, bad things can happen. There could be
00:57:09 ◼ ► anything from weather to pandemic or war or something. I mean, people who listen to the show
00:57:21 ◼ ► Unexpected things happen. So you ship when you can, right? You don't do things like skip a
00:57:27 ◼ ► generation because, well, it's going to be late and we'll probably have these three nanometer ones,
00:57:36 ◼ ► is a bigger update than M2 was from M1. But it's not worth skipping, but sort of a dry first half
00:57:43 ◼ ► of the year. I mean, what else? Well, you know what? I think we both forgot something probably
00:57:47 ◼ ► because I've never owned one. And because you might actually be one of the few people left that
00:57:51 ◼ ► care. And I don't mean that to be a turd. I'm just saying the HomePod, the second gen HomePod was
00:57:59 ◼ ► I did not get to, I do own them. I ran out of time before we started recording, before I got to
00:58:07 ◼ ► other. All right. HomePod 2. So that's actually pretty good. I'll give that a thumbs up, right?
00:58:13 ◼ ► They're better than HomePod 1 in every single way. And resolved. It is funny that I did forget
00:58:23 ◼ ► about it. Because until then we were living in a sort of mystery world of did Apple abandon the
00:58:31 ◼ ► regular HomePods, right? There was the pretty long stretch when they discontinued the originals.
00:58:36 ◼ ► But then they did have a HomePod mini, but there was nothing, the only HomePods. So that alone
00:58:51 ◼ ► they did introduce the HomePod mini before they canceled the regular HomePod. And so what were
00:58:57 ◼ ► they going to do? Rename it? Even if their plan actually was, we're never going to make a full
00:59:02 ◼ ► size HomePod again, it's these minis all the way. I still, there's no way they were going to rename
00:59:08 ◼ ► the product in the middle of the generation. I'm glad they're still making HomePods. I think
00:59:13 ◼ ► they're very good under underrated products. Then the second generation is nothing but better than
00:59:19 ◼ ► the first in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I've never actually owned any of them.
00:59:24 ◼ ► And my exposure and experience to them is mostly through Marco and he has gone back and forth on
00:59:30 ◼ ► loving them, hating and loving them, hating them. I think we're currently in a hate valley if you
00:59:34 ◼ ► will, for him at the moment. But yeah, cause he just bought like thousands of dollars worth of
00:59:40 ◼ ► Sonos shit. Yeah. That's my people. That's where I am now is I'm all in on the Sonos ecosystem.
00:59:45 ◼ ► But no, I mean, I agree with you though, even if it's not for me, I still think it's a cool and
00:59:50 ◼ ► good product for Apple to have. And I like when they have these sort of hobby products. And I
00:59:56 ◼ ► think even though I don't personally want them to think of the Apple TV that way, I think maybe they
01:00:00 ◼ ► do, but I think it's nice for them to kind of experiment a little bit in a responsible way,
01:00:09 ◼ ► Yeah. I still, I have them as my home theater hooked up to my TV. I care much more about the
01:00:21 ◼ ► and whenever I take hearing tests at my annual physical, I do fine. I hear all the beeps and I
01:00:27 ◼ ► hate those tests. Oh my God. Those, you know what I mean? Like where they put the headset on you and
01:00:31 ◼ ► they're like raise the hand of the ear. You hear it in I'm like, was there a beep there? I don't
01:00:35 ◼ ► know. Oh, geez. Well, and I've still, I was always the type of student who never did any studying
01:00:46 ◼ ► and never tried to do as little homework as possible. But yet also once the test started,
01:01:01 ◼ ► factors, but I feel that same way with things like eye exams and hearing tests, whereas I want to
01:01:08 ◼ ► score a hundred, not because I I'm going to get a sticker or something, but I don't know. I don't
01:01:13 ◼ ► want to lose. I don't want to lose my hearing, but you give me a test. I want to ACE it. I don't
01:01:18 ◼ ► care what the test is. It doesn't matter. It's like an instinctual. I hate that, but we've got
01:01:24 ◼ ► the home pods and it's a very, I think they sound very good to me. And I'm sure that even I could
01:01:30 ◼ ► hear much better sound from a bigger, more speaker system, but they absolutely sound like more than
01:01:38 ◼ ► two speakers. It's pretty good. And anything truly exorbitant isn't going to fly with the designer
01:01:48 ◼ ► in chief of our living room. Right? And so the visual minimalism of two white home pods in our
01:01:57 ◼ ► mostly white and light gray living room gets a two thumbs up from the designer in chief
01:02:11 ◼ ► when we first got our living room designed and did all this, I was, I asked Marco for some
01:02:18 ◼ ► suggestions on speakers and didn't, the price wasn't the factor. It was what they looked like
01:02:25 ◼ ► was like, no, no way. He sent me like something four feet tall and it's no, that's yeah. I mean,
01:02:31 ◼ ► my wife thought that I was joking and I was like, no, Marco, Marco says it sounds awesome. So
01:02:37 ◼ ► anyway, the home pods, I liked them as, and I know some people have terrible problems keeping them
01:02:57 ◼ ► it's almost all of my TV watching is later at night and Amy typically our routine is that she
01:03:03 ◼ ► falls asleep on the couch next to me. So there's a maximum limit to the volume that I can use and
01:03:08 ◼ ► the base, right? Like I'm not going to be able to get away with kick ass movie theater, THX quality
01:03:16 ◼ ► base rumbling. So for what I do, it's pretty good. So I'm, I was very happy that they did that. I'm
01:03:21 ◼ ► glad you remembered that, that they announced it. I give them a thumbs up for sticking with it.
01:03:25 ◼ ► Now there's rumors as we look ahead, there's rumors that they're going to do like a screen
01:03:30 ◼ ► or something. That has no appeal. I get it because why not have a screen and so, you know, like in a
01:03:40 ◼ ► kitchen or something. And we have them in our kitchen too, but I don't know. I never look at
01:03:44 ◼ ► it. That to me seems like it has to be a brand new product because there are certain cases where you
01:03:50 ◼ ► want a home pod, a screen would be a complete waste of money. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I've never
01:03:55 ◼ ► had any of like the echo shows or I forget what the Google equivalent is, but it's never been for
01:04:01 ◼ ► me. And I'm not to say that, I mean, I can fathom why it would be nice, but I don't think I personally
01:04:08 ◼ ► want a glowing screen in my kitchen always on all the time. That's just not my cup of tea. I
01:04:14 ◼ ► obviously, I think Apple would do a good job of it. And I think that they could be very clever
01:04:18 ◼ ► about it, but it's just, I agree with you. That's not a, that's solving a problem I don't think I
01:04:23 ◼ ► have, but then again, Apple often solves problems that I didn't realize I had. So we'll see. But
01:04:34 ◼ ► It was in March when who was it? Was it Joanna and Nicole? They dropped the shoulder surfing
01:04:43 ◼ ► passcode stealing phones thing that happened in March and 10 years of ATP was in March just to
01:04:53 ◼ ► so the announcement of final cut pro and logic pro for our new, I still think of ATP is your new
01:04:58 ◼ ► podcast. I know. Right. Isn't that wild? It's 10 years. I mean, I had zero children when ATP
01:05:03 ◼ ► started. Now I have two, but anyways, final cut pro and logic pro for iPad were announced in May.
01:05:09 ◼ ► So there's that. So that's a good one. And right. I mean, that's worth taking a pause to talk about
01:05:15 ◼ ► because to me, it's not because I use either app. I don't edit the show, so I don't use logic and I
01:05:23 ◼ ► don't edit videos. So I don't use final cut, but it's symbolic in terms of those two apps really
01:05:31 ◼ ► stuck out as the canonical examples of the whole debate is it does that is Apple doing right by the
01:05:41 ◼ ► iPad as a serious platform for professionals to use as their main computer. One of the arguments
01:05:48 ◼ ► against it was, well, for God's sake, even Apple doesn't put their pro apps on the iPad. Right. I
01:05:53 ◼ ► mean, it really was. It was how is this a pro computer if even Apple doesn't make pro apps for
01:05:59 ◼ ► it? Well, now they do. And by all accounts of people who do use them and know what the hell
01:06:03 ◼ ► they're talking about, they're pretty good. Yeah. Everything I've understood is that they
01:06:12 ◼ ► but I've used final cut pro reasonable amount on the desktop. I've never, I never played with it
01:06:17 ◼ ► on the iPad because it's not really a need. I have to me, if I'm going to do any sort of video
01:06:22 ◼ ► editing, I'm going to be on a computer. I'm going to be with as much screen real estate as I can get.
01:06:27 ◼ ► That being said, I really appreciate the fact that they finally clipped off this low hanging fruit.
01:06:38 ◼ ► And I've understood that final cut pro is good. It's certainly not full featured. It's not a one
01:06:44 ◼ ► to one equivalent. I forget which way you can go, but you can go like from the, from the iPad to the
01:06:49 ◼ ► desktop, but you can't go desktop to iPad, I think, or something along those lines, which is
01:06:53 ◼ ► a bit of a bummer, but I can understand it, especially when you start talking plugins and
01:06:56 ◼ ► this and that and the other thing, but just the fact that it's there does to your point show a
01:07:01 ◼ ► renewed or perhaps new found interest from Apple in trying to show that the iPad can be more than
01:07:08 ◼ ► just a toy. And I, I, I love my iPad, but I do personally consider it more toy than not.
01:07:15 ◼ ► And I would really love, especially with vision pro coming down the line and vision pro to my eyes,
01:07:20 ◼ ► being very much based on iPadOS. I would love to see them take iPad more seriously. And this
01:07:26 ◼ ► is a step in the right direction for sure. Yeah. I don't think they, I don't think it was easy.
01:07:31 ◼ ► Right. It's it's not, I mean, I know it wasn't right. There's no way that it was easy to take
01:07:41 ◼ ► you know, but in theory, you know, some kind of, you know, in theory, Apple could do some kind of
01:07:48 ◼ ► app kit on iPadOS, but they're not going to for reasons. I don't think anybody expects them to,
01:07:56 ◼ ► I think more people are worried that app kit has a long-term future, even on the Mac then vice versa.
01:08:03 ◼ ► So there was no porting toolkit. There wasn't any kind of, Oh, they, they made a new version of X
01:08:10 ◼ ► code that could take a serious long-standing professional app kit, Mac app, and get it onto
01:08:17 ◼ ► the iPad. It was all work, actual work. Jonas uses final cut because he he's into video as I would be
01:08:25 ◼ ► if I were his age. I, when I was his age, I thought maybe I would make movies or something.
01:08:30 ◼ ► I was very interested in filmmaking in college. So I don't blame him. They are not done that. They
01:08:35 ◼ ► don't blame him, but I see his interest, but he uses it on both and I've asked him. And so for him
01:08:42 ◼ ► and his use of final cut, I don't think he runs into the superset. Like he can go back and forth
01:08:49 ◼ ► between his iPad pro and his MacBook pro and doesn't run into whatever the limits are where
01:08:56 ◼ ► the Mac is a superset. But yeah, I would say that honestly, the other thing we might as well just
01:09:03 ◼ ► say it's the highlight of the iPad for the year. Right? I mean, cause the only other thing there,
01:09:09 ◼ ► oddly there was no iPad hardware, right? Yeah, that's true. Not even the mini or anything like
01:09:14 ◼ ► that. I don't know. Nothing. Nope, nothing. Everything. Hold on, John. Let's not besmirch
01:09:20 ◼ ► the Apple pencil with USB-C. I mean, come on, man. That is the exception is yet another Apple pencil
01:09:26 ◼ ► with USB-C, which I'm making fun of in tone, but I understand, I guess the only thing I don't
01:09:34 ◼ ► understand is why last year's 10th generation iPad was that what's the one that used the Apple
01:09:44 ◼ ► pencil one and they had to make a new, they had to make a new adapter for it. So they didn't make
01:09:50 ◼ ► a new pencil. They made a new adapter because the iPad had USB-C built for the future, but the Apple
01:09:57 ◼ ► pencil one charges and pairs as a lightning that you just stick into the side of the iPad,
01:10:05 ◼ ► sort of like a popsicle stick. I understand why it is that way, but I don't understand why they,
01:10:10 ◼ ► how they painted themselves. It clearly painted themselves into a pencil corner. Right? I mean,
01:10:16 ◼ ► it's so true. Anyway, I've been ahead of ourselves though, cause that was like October or something
01:10:21 ◼ ► like that. So yeah, well, just to go by product category though, there wasn't really much else
01:10:26 ◼ ► for iPad for the year. I mean, that was it. Anything else from your list for the pre June
01:10:32 ◼ ► WWDC? This was in April GM said, Oh, we're not going to do carplay anymore. And we're still
01:10:38 ◼ ► seeing a little bit of the ripples from that now. That was that long ago. Geez. Yeah, I know. I
01:10:43 ◼ ► didn't realize either. I think this is bananas. I think this is utterly bananas and I'm a devout car
01:10:48 ◼ ► play person for me. I would not buy a car without carplay because no matter how great, and I think
01:10:55 ◼ ► there are some exceptions here, like modern electric cars, like Teslas and Rivians, you
01:11:00 ◼ ► could make an argument that they'll continue to be updated and continually get better and so on and
01:11:05 ◼ ► so forth. But the thing that you run into is even if the software gets better, the hardware is the
01:11:09 ◼ ► hardware in a car, right? My wife's car, she's a Volvo SUV. And I like actually like her infotainment
01:11:16 ◼ ► leaving aside the car play parts. Her infotainment is good, but the processor in her car is clearly
01:11:21 ◼ ► underpowered and it's never going to get better. It's never ever going to get better. And one of
01:11:26 ◼ ► the great things about carplay is not only does the software get better, but as you change phones,
01:11:31 ◼ ► the hardware gets better too. And so for me, I wouldn't even consider a car without carplay.
01:11:36 ◼ ► I mean, I didn't when we bought our cars in the late tens because we bought hers in 17,
01:11:45 ◼ ► that's bananas. And so for GM to say, we're not going to support carplay anymore. Well,
01:11:49 ◼ ► guess what? I'm not supporting GM. Well, I mean, I wasn't already, but you know what I mean? Like,
01:12:01 ◼ ► And if I needed an EV right now, I would think about it, except they just canceled it. But even
01:12:06 ◼ ► still, I wouldn't get one without carplay. The whole thing sort of exemplifies like the weird
01:12:11 ◼ ► current status of GM, right? Like the Bolt, I I've never driven one either, but I have heard
01:12:18 ◼ ► nothing but good things about the Bolt. Right. It is. And GM is overall ahead of most car brands on
01:12:28 ◼ ► electric vehicles, which is clearly the future, right? I mean, isn't it the case that like even
01:12:33 ◼ ► Honda who I love as a company, I, my beloved 2006 Accurate TL does not have carplay being from 2006,
01:12:43 ◼ ► but Honda had to go to GM to like get electric vehicles. So there's rebranded GM vehicles with
01:12:49 ◼ ► the Honda badge, but like a GM interior, Syracuse was talking about it on ATP reasons. Yeah. Maybe
01:12:55 ◼ ► all the Japanese marks. I don't think because Lexus is in a similar boat. Right. And no Nissan
01:13:00 ◼ ► did the leaf. So Nissan complete disaster, but Subaru, same story. I think that's a re rebranded
01:13:06 ◼ ► something else. It's utterly bananas to me that the Japanese were caught. So flat or the Japanese
01:13:10 ◼ ► car companies were caught so flat footed with EVs and they don't seem to be catching up that
01:13:15 ◼ ► quickly. It's great. And they had Toyota had the Prius, which was ahead of its time. It's like,
01:13:20 ◼ ► but also really was kind of goofy looking. Right. I mean, it was like very much so. I don't know.
01:13:27 ◼ ► And I honestly, in a way that in the sort of in the inverse of the way that Tesla moved electric
01:13:34 ◼ ► vehicles forward. I mean, say what you want about the owner of the company. There's no doubt that
01:13:39 ◼ ► the existence of and success and popularity of Tesla and the fact that the people who buy them
01:13:45 ◼ ► overall seem very happy with them, even though they're like, ah, who cares about the panel gaps?
01:13:49 ◼ ► It's blank. There's other things that they love about them. I think the Prius set electric vehicles
01:13:54 ◼ ► back because people who were skeptical were like thinking that they were like little putt putt
01:14:01 ◼ ► golf cars. Well, then here's the one, the most famous one. It kind of was a putt putt golf car.
01:14:07 ◼ ► Right. And it's no, the truth is electric vehicles go like hell, like the entry model Tesla, you put
01:14:14 ◼ ► the pedal down and it, you know, it's bananas. It's bananas. They're crazy how fast they go.
01:14:19 ◼ ► So like if you're sort of a red meat and beer American, you know, I want my car to go real fast,
01:14:31 ◼ ► but the Prius kind of set it back. I don't know. But then you hear GM has this car that was renowned
01:14:36 ◼ ► the bolt and then they canceled it. Yep. It's just bananas. And the bolt actually from zero to
01:14:41 ◼ ► 30 miles an hour is fairly quick to your point. Now, once you get above 30, it's real slow,
01:14:46 ◼ ► real fast, but, but, but you know, that buying a bolt, right? It's zero to 30 is more important
01:14:51 ◼ ► than 30 to 60. Exactly. Exactly. I agree. I agree. So yeah, I don't know. We don't need to
01:14:57 ◼ ► persevere on it, but it's just, it's bananas to me that this is the direction GM is going. And to
01:15:00 ◼ ► your point, they were doing pretty well and had a lead over a lot of these other, especially foreign
01:15:07 ◼ ► manufacturers. And I feel like they're just shooting themselves in the foot left and right.
01:15:10 ◼ ► It's just bananas. I do. I don't know. I think the most telling aspect and again, Joanna Stern,
01:15:25 ◼ ► And he was like, yeah, we're not getting rid of CarPlay. Our, our owners love CarPlay. And
01:15:30 ◼ ► you know, this, I know this, everybody knows it. And I'm sure GM is hearing it right. Like the
01:15:34 ◼ ► nature, the nature of everybody other than Tesla who sells direct is that the real customers for
01:15:40 ◼ ► GM are their dealers and the dealers sell to the customers. And it's the dealers who know how many
01:15:47 ◼ ► people come in. And as Apple loves to quote the percentage of new car buyers in the U S who
01:15:53 ◼ ► consider CarPlay a must have is astonishing. It's I don't know, it's 80% or something like that.
01:15:59 ◼ ► And it's bananas compared to iPhone ownership, which is like 51% because it's new car buyers
01:16:10 ◼ ► there's 80% of new car buyers consider CarPlay a must have. I saw, I still wouldn't be surprised.
01:16:17 ◼ ► I wouldn't be surprised if GM backtracks on this. Cause it's not like they're not Apple,
01:16:32 ◼ ► I think the thing of it is, is that it could work for GM if they become a software company
01:16:36 ◼ ► really freaking fast. Cause there's an argument that Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, they're just software
01:16:41 ◼ ► companies that happen to have a car to run their software. And I don't see a company as old as GM
01:16:48 ◼ ► being to pivot that quickly to becoming a software company. I mean, anything is possible, but man,
01:17:01 ◼ ► and I don't mean that to be snarky, but I suspect will mean something to you. A marathon was
01:17:05 ◼ ► announced in May. And I presume that that means something for you because this is way before my
01:17:12 ◼ ► Yeah, but it's like a new marathon and I don't play games anymore, but I'm glad the franchise still
01:17:17 ◼ ► is being resuscitated because I do love the franchise. I would consider as an old school
01:17:23 ◼ ► Mac user, consider it the marathon cinematic universe, not the Halo cinematic universe.
01:17:31 ◼ ► But I, and I had an Xbox, this is where Syracuse and I overlap in so many ways, but then when we
01:17:39 ◼ ► depart significantly. So like I bought the first generation Xbox cause I was still playing video
01:17:45 ◼ ► games like in the very late nineties, early two thousands and liked it a lot. And you know, one
01:17:51 ◼ ► of the deciding factors for me to buy the Xbox instead of whatever the PlayStation of that era
01:17:56 ◼ ► was, was knowing that I wanted to play Halo because I liked marathon so much. And at the
01:18:04 ◼ ► time it was a recent memory and I was exactly right. I, you know, and I've since gotten out
01:18:09 ◼ ► of all games, so I don't know how much the modern versions of Halo still feel the same, but as a
01:18:14 ◼ ► diehard marathon user from the mid to end of the nineties on the Mac, Halo on Xbox was like, Oh,
01:18:21 ◼ ► I understand all of this. And it sorta takes place in the same universe. I forget if it's like in a
01:18:26 ◼ ► different century or it's definitely a different planet and I maybe destiny is, I don't know. I
01:18:31 ◼ ► don't, I that's again, this is where Syracuse and I diverge. He still plays video games seriously and
01:18:38 ◼ ► I don't. So I don't know, but the new marathon is sort of different, I guess. I don't know,
01:18:42 ◼ ► but it's not out yet. So it was only announced. Yeah. I don't even know if it's like a 2024 thing.
01:18:51 ◼ ► saw that too recently where the Grand Theft Auto is, man, this looks amazing. And then at the end,
01:18:55 ◼ ► they're like coming in 2029 or something. I'm like, what are you talking about? It was nuts.
01:19:14 ◼ ► right now launch launch, but in right one released one announced, do we get, do we get a finally on
01:19:19 ◼ ► either of those? I ask kind of snarkily snarky kind of not, I would say definitely a finally on
01:19:26 ◼ ► the big consumer laptop, right? It was as big, I guess it doesn't appeal to as many people,
01:19:32 ◼ ► but it was the two things Apple never made were big screen laptops in the consumer range and a
01:19:40 ◼ ► big screen phone in the consumer range, right? The big screen and the iPhone pro era was always
01:19:51 ◼ ► You don't have to look at the spreadsheets in front of Tim Cook's desk to guess why, right? It
01:19:58 ◼ ► was because they knew some people would buy the biggest screen because people, some people love
01:20:04 ◼ ► big devices and having the Mac book with big screen start at $2,500 was good for Apple. But
01:20:13 ◼ ► it's kind of crazy comparing the Mac market to the PC market in that regard, where if your budget is
01:20:21 ◼ ► lower and you don't, you know, or even if it's not about budget, but just your needs, if you're like,
01:20:25 ◼ ► I'm not a professional Mac user, I just need something good and reliable. The fact that you
01:20:32 ◼ ► could only get 13 inch laptops in the non-pro Mac books was conspicuous. So I would say finally,
01:20:39 ◼ ► yeah, I think they should have done it long ago. I don't, and the only explanation for it
01:20:44 ◼ ► is that they thought they made more money by keeping them as pro models, but there's rumors,
01:20:51 ◼ ► you know, we never know how much each particular model sells. I guess the consensus is that the M2
01:20:57 ◼ ► Mac book air isn't that big a seller, but I don't know. I find that hard. I don't think it's going
01:21:04 ◼ ► to be like the iPhone mini where they try it for a year or two and they're like, ah, this didn't sell
01:21:09 ◼ ► that well. We're going to abandon the form factor. I think it's here to stay. And I don't think it's
01:21:14 ◼ ► surprising that it doesn't sell as well as the 13 inch models. Cause I think that's what most
01:21:25 ◼ ► but I can't help but think it might do, it might be doing better than the general consensus thinks
01:21:30 ◼ ► it is. Yeah, I agree with you top to bottom. And this to me feels like very much in the spirit of
01:21:35 ◼ ► Final Cut Pro and Logic for the iPad where whether or not this is a real profit center for Apple,
01:21:45 ◼ ► like the pencil, like the iPad have gotten a little bit too diverse at this point. I still
01:21:56 ◼ ► there's so many people like my dad, as we spoke about earlier, still kicking, still with it,
01:22:01 ◼ ► still likes technology. And he recently, instead of getting a MacBook pro, he recently got a MacBook
01:22:07 ◼ ► Air. And although he did get the 13 inch, he is the kind of buyer that I think this would be good
01:22:13 ◼ ► for, especially as his eyes get worse at 70 plus years old, that he doesn't need a MacBook Pro. He
01:22:18 ◼ ► used to get it because the consumer laptops were fairly well neutered, particularly in the Intel
01:22:22 ◼ ► era. At this point, he doesn't have any need for a MacBook Pro, but there may come a time he might
01:22:28 ◼ ► want a bigger screen if nothing else. So he can crank the font size on everything up a little bit.
01:22:32 ◼ ► And so on account of that, I could totally see him the next time he gets a laptop getting a,
01:22:36 ◼ ► you know, 15 inch MacBook Air. And I think that's just one of many different examples that prove the
01:22:40 ◼ ► same thing that, yeah, maybe it isn't selling gangbusters, but I think it definitely has a
01:22:45 ◼ ► place in the lineup. And I think it makes sense more so, I would argue, than the iPhone mini. And
01:22:50 ◼ ► I know that will offend a lot of iPhone mini people, but I think it makes a lot more sense
01:22:53 ◼ ► than the mini. Yeah, and I didn't buy a mini, but I was so close. And that was the year,
01:23:00 ◼ ► I regret that I didn't buy one because I bought the non-pro iPhone. I bought the iPhone 12
01:23:06 ◼ ► regular size in black because I thought it looked better. I just, I still think it looked better.
01:23:11 ◼ ► And I liked the glossy backside. And it was the year when buying the iPhone was mid lockdown
01:23:20 ◼ ► and vaccines weren't out. And I thought, well, if there's ever a year where I place less value
01:23:39 ◼ ► vacations and travel would be a thing again. I thought, well, but by that time, I'll only have
01:23:46 ◼ ► months to go before next year's models. And it was true. So I didn't regret it, but I wish I would
01:23:50 ◼ ► have bought the mini just so I could say I had one. But I agree if Apple, well, they are going
01:23:57 ◼ ► to do this. There's no if about it, but their whole- we're the only company that makes the
01:24:08 ◼ ► only runs our OSs. We make the whole shebang. I think they're sort of obligated to sort of
01:24:15 ◼ ► fill in the gaps. I think it was a failure of some sorts that they never offered consumer level
01:24:22 ◼ ► MacBooks in a bigger than 13 inch size. And every time I say that, somebody will say that there was
01:24:27 ◼ ► a 14 inch iBook back in the day. But that didn't really qualify as a big laptop. I guess it's the
01:24:36 ◼ ► closest they came though. So there was, it was like a 12 inch iBook and a 14 inch iBook. So there
01:24:41 ◼ ► was a brief stretch where the iBooks came in two sizes, but they never had one 15 or 16 inches
01:24:47 ◼ ► before. And now they do. And I think they should, if they're going to be the only company that makes
01:24:51 ◼ ► Mac laptops, there should be more than one size. I mean, I don't think that's too much to ask.
01:25:02 ◼ ► - Before we get to Vision Pro, was the M2 Max and Ultra, that was June, but was that WWDC?
01:25:08 ◼ ► - Oh yeah, that was WWDC too. So what am I talking about? Yeah, that was the other hardware WWDC. I'm
01:25:13 ◼ ► sure that there are people listening to this who've been going nuts for the last five minutes that I
01:25:18 ◼ ► insinuated that there was no other hardware. No, speaking of finalies, we finally got the Mac Pro.
01:25:24 ◼ ► Yeah, here we go, June. So the M2 Max and Ultra, Mac Studio and Mac Pro, finally. So that's even
01:25:43 ◼ ► I know you guys covered this to extraordinary length, to your everlasting pleasure on ATP.
01:25:49 ◼ ► - Yes, yes, that's it. No, it is a disappointment. I don't know. It's funny because I don't
01:25:54 ◼ ► care. I don't ever see myself as a buyer of a Mac Pro, but I do subscribe to Syracuse's
01:26:03 ◼ ► Halo car point of view that it makes sense for Apple to have this Halo car that they can point
01:26:11 ◼ ► to and say, "Look what we can do." And you guys were talking about this actually on the episode
01:26:15 ◼ ► that you recorded, that the Mac Pro today, I don't think they're really flexing all their muscles.
01:26:22 ◼ ► And I think if they let themselves really go hog wild, it could and would be a truly competitive
01:26:29 ◼ ► computer. And it's just not right now. It's a Mac Studio with a bunch of space for IO, which,
01:26:34 ◼ ► sure, for a small group of people, that's important, perhaps do or die sort of scenario,
01:26:39 ◼ ► but it's not a lot of people. And although I'm in support of them having done the whole lineup,
01:26:43 ◼ ► and I'm glad they did it so Jon can stop fretting constantly about what's going to happen,
01:26:52 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't want to rehash it because Syracuse and I talked about it last week, but it really is,
01:26:56 ◼ ► I mean, there's no denying it. It's the same because the system on a chip so defines the modern
01:27:05 ◼ ► I don't think it's unfair at all to say that it is exactly what you just said. It is a Mac Studio
01:27:11 ◼ ► in a 10 times bigger case that really that extra space is really only used for IO. So if your needs
01:27:18 ◼ ► are IO and the Mac Studio, you're bursting at the seams on a Mac Studio with IO needs, then yes,
01:27:27 ◼ ► you're happy. But that's the whole Mac Pro market, let's say, like from the last generation Intel
01:27:34 ◼ ► ones, or a hypothetical future Mac Pro that really does far exceed the Mac Studio in numerous ways.
01:27:43 ◼ ► That market is always going to be a niche, right? But based on price, based on how many people really
01:27:51 ◼ ► need the Halo car of computers, it's a small segment of the Mac user base. And then to say
01:27:58 ◼ ► that this one really only exceeds the Mac Studio in the one regard of IO is a niche within a niche,
01:28:05 ◼ ► right? The fact that they still released it though, to me, is a sign that it's like putting a
01:28:15 ◼ ► flag in the ground and they're saying, they weren't going to say, okay, yeah, this is a
01:28:20 ◼ ► disappointment. But to me, my Cupertino-ology reading between the lines is we had to ship
01:28:34 ◼ ► Standby for future generations. Whether that's going to be this next year or the year after,
01:28:53 ◼ ► it was untenable to keep selling the last generation Intel one, right? So what were they
01:29:00 ◼ ► going to do? Keep selling the Intel one? Take it off the market? Get rid of the Mac Pro for
01:29:05 ◼ ► a gap of a few years? This to me is the best way forward to at least make some users happy.
01:29:11 ◼ ► And again, for the serious video pros who are pushing enormous amounts of 8K video around and
01:29:18 ◼ ► need the IO, they're happy, right? So make somebody happy. I think the best case scenario is a bespoke
01:29:25 ◼ ► chip for it. But if that is not in the cards and not on the table, then yes, I agree with you. At
01:29:29 ◼ ► least showing you care enough to do something is a good sign. Yeah, I think that's it other than
01:29:34 ◼ ► Vision Pro. So I mean, you've got way more time with the Vision Pro than me. So what do you think?
01:29:44 ◼ ► let's get on with it, right? You, you are actually, you are just talked before that you're already
01:29:50 ◼ ► working on call sheet for Vision OS and you and Marco together went to the developer labs. I know
01:29:56 ◼ ► you and I both have a bunch of developer friends. I know others who've done it. When it's a new
01:30:01 ◼ ► platform like the watch or whatever, there is no Osborne effect to worry about. Apple can
01:30:07 ◼ ► pre-announce a headset and the only sales they might hurt because people are waiting for it are
01:30:12 ◼ ► from companies like Meta, who I'm sure it breaks Apple's heart if Meta sold fewer Quest 3s than
01:30:20 ◼ ► they would have otherwise, even though it's, you know, price-wise it's sort of by definition,
01:30:25 ◼ ► a different market, but it's sort of like, how much can we say? I don't know. I think Apple,
01:30:36 ◼ ► to this new concept of spatial computing, what the 1984 Mac was to GUI, graphical user interface
01:30:46 ◼ ► computing or desktop computing. I don't know what meant, what they would call it. That's
01:30:50 ◼ ► where they're positioning it and the way that they would position at the time in 2007. And I think in
01:30:57 ◼ ► hindsight, the iPhone is the first modern cell phone. They're presenting this as that level of
01:31:04 ◼ ► platform, right? It is not like the HomePod or AirPods. It's not an other, like a wearable.
01:31:11 ◼ ► It is a, in their mind, a computing platform for the future. And this is only the first one.
01:31:20 ◼ ► Having used it three times, WWDC and then two demos in New York in recent months for the spatial
01:31:27 ◼ ► video where I got to see some of theirs, and then I went back up and got to see my own video
01:31:32 ◼ ► that I shot over Thanksgiving and in the weeks afterwards. The demos I've gotten have been more
01:31:39 ◼ ► like entertainment oriented, right? Using it as an entertainment device. They haven't let me do
01:31:50 ◼ ► But I see the potential. I really, really do. But it's just hard to speculate going at this point,
01:32:03 ◼ ► only taking my Vision Pro and a keyboard instead of my MacBook? Probably not, but I could imagine
01:32:11 ◼ ► some people would, right? It's sort of in a way that I don't, I can't imagine only using my iPad
01:32:18 ◼ ► or taking my iPad on a trip like that where I plan to work just because my personal workflow is so
01:32:25 ◼ ► Mac specific. But I could imagine that for the many millions of people who do use their iPads
01:32:40 ◼ ► the time that we spent in lab, but even before that event, I can tell you that as someone who
01:32:47 ◼ ► likes going to like a library or a cafe or what have you in order to get work done from time to
01:32:52 ◼ ► time, the thought of having a 4K screen that is physically the size of a headset, that's extremely
01:33:00 ◼ ► compelling. And if I can suck my Mac into the Vision Pro, and then perhaps I'm using the Vision
01:33:06 ◼ ► Pro or effectively iPadOS versions of Slack and Safari and whatnot, and all this is scattered
01:33:11 ◼ ► around my laptop screen, leaving aside the fact that it'll look like a total doofus being at the
01:33:15 ◼ ► library with this thing on my face. I can see how it would be extremely cooler in a plane.
01:33:20 ◼ ► I got to imagine that if you were able to watch a movie in relative isolation between your AirPods
01:33:28 ◼ ► and the Vision Pro, I mean, what better way to pass the time on a plane if you're not going to
01:33:33 ◼ ► get work done than watching a 400-foot or whatever screen with spatial audio in your ears and noise
01:33:39 ◼ ► canceling? I mean, I can imagine how it would be extremely compelling, but my word is it expensive.
01:33:46 ◼ ► Yeah. Do you think it's going to be the sort of product where they're going to have good,
01:33:52 ◼ ► better, and best? They've only said... The only thing they've said is starting at $3,500. And
01:33:58 ◼ ► they haven't talked about anything like storage, because that's how Apple typically tears pricing.
01:34:06 ◼ ► There's, "Oh, entry level as 256 gigabytes of storage or five... I don't know. For $3,500,
01:34:13 ◼ ► I better have more than 256." But it's Apple, right? I say that, but would you be shocked if
01:34:27 ◼ ► My gut reaction is that it'll be like the Apple TV where there's two or maybe three storage tiers
01:34:34 ◼ ► and they call it a day. My brain, as I reason through it intellectually, I think it would be
01:34:39 ◼ ► more akin to an iPad where... Not to say that it'll have cellular, but maybe you have a couple of
01:34:45 ◼ ► different storage tiers. Maybe not the first generation, but at some point maybe you have
01:34:51 ◼ ► an M3 Pro or M3 Max. I mean, if this really is going to be a work computer, it could stand to
01:35:03 ◼ ► certainly don't think that'll be the case in a couple of months or whenever it is it comes out.
01:35:06 ◼ ► But I could see a future where that's a thing. I could also imagine them maybe doing not a bundle,
01:35:13 ◼ ► because that seems beneath Apple, but I can't think of a better word for it. But maybe you get
01:35:17 ◼ ► a Vision Pro or you can get a Vision Pro and a couple of battery packs or what have you,
01:35:20 ◼ ► or something like that. Or a couple of light shields if... I don't know. I guess I don't know
01:35:24 ◼ ► why you would need more than one. But maybe some sort of bundle-like thing where you get a small
01:35:36 ◼ ► No. So I take that all back, I guess. But I don't know. I do think some sort of good, better, best,
01:35:41 ◼ ► or better, best, perfect, or what have you. I do think that will be in the future. I think they're
01:35:46 ◼ ► certainly leaving the space for it now. But it also would not surprise me at all if they said,
01:35:54 ◼ ► Yeah. I kind of hope they do. I think that would be neat for the first generation and let that
01:36:03 ◼ ► calling it Vision Pro... Again, you don't even have to be an expert Cupertino-ologist to read
01:36:09 ◼ ► between the lines that they're saying, "In the future, there will be non-Pro Vision headsets."
01:36:15 ◼ ► Right? It's Apple's way of saying just in the name of the product alone, "We know this is crazy
01:36:20 ◼ ► expensive, but this is the first one. And in the future, there will be non-Pro ones at obviously
01:36:28 ◼ ► lower prices." And I think the other things... I mean, it's an exciting time and I'm super excited
01:36:36 ◼ ► for it to come out and to see more. And I do think it's interesting. My whole spiel about,
01:36:50 ◼ ► get a virtual 4K display in the Vision headset with your Mac. When I travel though, and I use
01:36:58 ◼ ► my MacBook Pro as a laptop with the screen open, I kind of miss my studio display, but I don't miss
01:37:12 ◼ ► little birdies who've used it that way, who say it really is compelling. I mean, and there's a reason
01:37:17 ◼ ► they added the feature and that engineers at Apple who've had access to it really do use it and enjoy
01:37:23 ◼ ► using the virtual Mac screen within the headset. So it is a weird place that the iPhone and the iPad
01:37:31 ◼ ► have never had anything like that. So if you miss, "Oh, there's this certain app that only works on
01:37:36 ◼ ► the Mac. I do stuff at the terminal command line that I need." And you don't have that on iPad or
01:37:43 ◼ ► iPhone. Vision with this integration of a virtual Mac screen pairs with a Mac in a way that nothing
01:37:49 ◼ ► else ever has before. So I'm interested to see how that plays out. But the other things I'm interested
01:37:54 ◼ ► to see how they play out are sort of at the meta level, not capital M, the company. But there's so
01:38:02 ◼ ► many people who are skeptical that, "Well, at $3,500, nobody's going to buy this thing." But
01:38:09 ◼ ► I think it's going to be back ordered the whole year because I think they're not going to be...
01:38:15 ◼ ► And again, I could be wrong. I'm just going by the rumor mill, but the rumor mill says that these
01:38:22 ◼ ► Sony displays of which you need one in front of both eyes in each headset, Sony can only make
01:38:30 ◼ ► two million of them a year. So there's like a cap of like a million of these things that Apple can
01:38:36 ◼ ► theoretically make in the next year. And all other components aside that if they can't get more than
01:38:41 ◼ ► two million displays from Sony, they literally can't make more than a million Vision Pro headsets.
01:38:47 ◼ ► And by Apple's scale today, that's not that much, right? They sold a million iPhones in the first
01:38:53 ◼ ► year in 2007. The goal, Steve Jobs' goal was to get to 10 million like in the first 18 months,
01:38:59 ◼ ► which they hit. So the iPhone was much more of Apple was such a smaller company then with so
01:39:06 ◼ ► many fewer customers because the iPhone is the product that turned them from having millions
01:39:13 ◼ ► of users or tens of millions of users to a billion plus users. So if they can only make a million of
01:39:20 ◼ ► them, I honestly think it'll be back ordered all year. I mean, because developers are going to want
01:39:25 ◼ ► to buy them. I think for business travelers, the first class of airplanes is always filled up. I
01:39:31 ◼ ► mean, and I know some people get upgrades and I know that like business travelers who get first
01:39:36 ◼ ► class seats, the company pays for it, but the company might buy their Vision Pro headset too.
01:39:41 ◼ ► But if you have the sort of job where you travel all the time, buying fancy headphones has always
01:39:49 ◼ ► been a thing, right? Noise canceling headphones used to be considered super expensive too,
01:39:54 ◼ ► but who bought them? Business travelers. Being able to watch an immersive big screen movie
01:40:00 ◼ ► while you're flying it, that alone put aside all the computing parts, it just as an entertainment
01:40:11 ◼ ► - No, I couldn't agree more. And the other thing bringing up business travelers is what if you work
01:40:21 ◼ ► those things where they put the screen on top of your screen so you can only see it directly ahead.
01:40:26 ◼ ► It's going to be hard for somebody to see something that's literally attached to your face,
01:40:30 ◼ ► right? So I could see from like a privacy point of view, a corporate secrecy point of view,
01:40:35 ◼ ► how you can make a compelling argument for, well, my computer screen will be literally black,
01:40:41 ◼ ► or maybe it'll say I'm being used in the Vision Pro or what have you. And the screen that you're
01:40:45 ◼ ► actually looking at is touching your face. There's no one going to be shoulder surfing you if that's
01:40:50 ◼ ► the case. - Yeah. So maybe your work requires it, or maybe you're just that private/facial.
01:40:56 ◼ ► - Yeah. - I mean, I've seen it when traveling where there's... And I think there's all sorts
01:41:00 ◼ ► of different ways people can do it. There's like screen protectors you can put over the laptop.
01:41:08 ◼ ► I'm nosy. And when I go to the bathroom on a plane, I like to see... Not that I'm trying to
01:41:14 ◼ ► read their stuff, but I'm curious which devices people use, who's using a laptop, how many Macs
01:41:20 ◼ ► are there, how many people are still using Windows laptops, who's using an iPad for work, who's using
01:41:24 ◼ ► an iPad... And sometimes you walk past somebody's laptop and it's like, it looks like they're typing
01:41:29 ◼ ► on a black screen and you're like, "What the hell is... What are they doing?" Pretending to compute
01:41:33 ◼ ► and you realize, "Oh, they've got one of those screens that keeps people from looking at it."
01:41:37 ◼ ► Again, large scale, like the iPhone or just Macs in general, no, that's not a huge market,
01:41:53 ◼ ► That means there'll be a secondary market on eBay and I'm curious how expensive they'll get.
01:41:58 ◼ ► If Apple says, "You don't place your order in the first five minutes after they go on sale in
01:42:06 ◼ ► January or February or whenever it's going to be." And in March, you've read the reviews, you're like,
01:42:12 ◼ ► "I want to get one of these." And you go to apple.com and it says, "12 weeks. What's the
01:42:16 ◼ ► price on eBay going to be?" And is that even going to be possible with the light shields and stuff?
01:42:29 ◼ ► Apple Watch bands where there's only a couple of sizes, but when I've asked them in my demos,
01:42:41 ◼ ► You probably did this. I don't want to put you on the spot because I know you're not supposed to
01:42:45 ◼ ► talk about any of it, but I can say, I'm allowed to say that you use an iPhone when you first get
01:42:51 ◼ ► started to use a vision pro. I guess it's going to be an app or maybe it'll be in settings. I don't
01:42:58 ◼ ► know. They also don't tell me where this app was, but it's like setting up face ID though. You just
01:43:03 ◼ ► look at the phone in front of your face and it says, "Move your face in a circle," just like
01:43:08 ◼ ► setting up face ID. And it's them scanning your face or the phone scanning your face to get a
01:43:14 ◼ ► light shield guess. And how many of them are there? I don't know. And are you going to have
01:43:19 ◼ ► to pay for extras? And how's the whole thing going to work with a husband and wife or a family?
01:43:26 ◼ ► Right. Like you buy one for $3,500 and you get one light shield that doesn't fit your spouse or your
01:43:33 ◼ ► kids. And with the corrective lenses, how many... Are we just going to show up to the Apple store
01:43:46 ◼ ► seven, five in the other eye, "Here, give me these things." That's what it was like for me the last
01:43:52 ◼ ► two times in New York when I tried the vision where I just gave them my prescription from my
01:44:00 ◼ ► eye doctor. And then they had one set up for me with the right lenses in there. But back in June,
01:44:14 ◼ ► which I think is more the experience you'll have in the store. They're saying nobody knows yet,
01:44:18 ◼ ► but it's going to be a process to buy one of these. And I think you'll buy... I don't even
01:44:24 ◼ ► know. Are they just going to sell them to people online and let you enter your prescription on
01:44:28 ◼ ► apple.com? I have so many questions like this. Yeah, I agree. I think the rollout is going to be
01:44:32 ◼ ► absolutely fascinating, particularly for talking heads like you and me. But I think it'll be
01:44:36 ◼ ► fascinating in general because they've all but said without actually saying that it's going to be
01:44:41 ◼ ► in store only. And that's all well and good, but I know that Apple stores are in population centers.
01:44:48 ◼ ► But looking at Virginia, Virginia definitely has some rural spots, no argument about it. But
01:44:52 ◼ ► a lot of Virginia, like the closest Apple store to a lot of Virginia, parts of Virginia that are
01:44:59 ◼ ► two or three, four hours by car, here in Richmond, I have the closest Apple store to areas in
01:45:05 ◼ ► Southwest Virginia that are like three hours by car. They're choosing between going to Raleigh,
01:45:09 ◼ ► North Carolina, or Richmond. And how's that going to work? You're going to drive three hours to pick
01:45:14 ◼ ► up your Vision Pro? That's not a particularly enjoyable first run experience. But I get it.
01:45:19 ◼ ► On the other side of the token is you need to be able to scan your face and pick out what
01:45:23 ◼ ► light shield you need. You need to be able to get the Zeiss prescription lenses and so on and so
01:45:27 ◼ ► forth. So I don't know. It's going to be very interesting. And like you were saying earlier,
01:45:31 ◼ ► the secondhand market will be fascinating too, because what are you going to do? You're going to
01:45:34 ◼ ► go, you're going to get the light shield for your face, and maybe you'll get the prescription lenses
01:45:38 ◼ ► for your face. And then you go to put that on eBay, and I guess you just hope for the best if
01:45:42 ◼ ► you buy it. You hope that light shield isn't a piece of garbage on your face. I mean, I am very
01:45:46 ◼ ► well endowed in the nose section, so I might need a very different light shield than someone who has
01:45:51 ◼ ► a little pixie nose. So I mean, it's just, I don't know how it's going to work. And obviously,
01:45:55 ◼ ► Apple doesn't care about the secondhand market. But even still, it's a fascinating thing to think
01:46:00 ◼ ► about. And also they've said the rollout is US only. So are people going to be coming flying into
01:46:05 ◼ ► the States and going to like the Times Square store or something like that in order to pick
01:46:08 ◼ ► up a vision pro? Could be, you never know, especially if you're a developer from overseas,
01:46:12 ◼ ► like look at James Thompson with Pecan. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he comes to New York.
01:46:21 ◼ ► the first few years of the iPhone, where it was debuted, not just US only, but on one carrier in
01:46:28 ◼ ► the US. But there was a huge gray market for iPhones around the globe, especially once they had
01:46:35 ◼ ► the version. Oh, no, I guess it was the other way around where Verizon was the weird one on CBMA.
01:46:41 ◼ ► So yeah, so actually, it was because it was GSM, you put SIM cards in around the world and just,
01:46:47 ◼ ► how big is the gray market going to be? It's weird. I don't know. It's exciting. But that's
01:46:53 ◼ ► all next year. So let's get back to this year. What else? Anything else from WWDC? I mean,
01:47:00 ◼ ► I guess we could save talk about the operating systems for when they actually shipped. But
01:47:04 ◼ ► Yeah, I think that was it. I mean, obviously talk show live, which was live for the first time. Is
01:47:10 ◼ ► that right? It was no, it was COVID. No, no, no second because I had the weird one on campus
01:47:18 ◼ ► in the development center. Right, right, right, right, right, right. The sort of one step in
01:47:28 ◼ ► I was just, I just watched it here at home and it seems like forever ago for me as well.
01:47:34 ◼ ► But yeah, I think that's it for June. Holy cow, does that seem like a long time. The summer months
01:47:38 ◼ ► were bare as usual for news while Apple was heads down on the operating systems. We did get threads
01:47:44 ◼ ► for what it's worth. That was in July. I know that's not Apple specific, but threads were long.
01:48:00 ◼ ► I don't remember. It was Disney's, I forget what it was. Was that Iger coming back or what was it?
01:48:06 ◼ ► Disney was trying to load half their streaming services. I don't know. You have a post about it
01:48:09 ◼ ► in August, Disney and Apple sitting in a tree. I forget the specifics behind it, but there was,
01:48:14 ◼ ► if you squinted just right, it looked like there was a vague possibility that Apple would do it.
01:48:19 ◼ ► And if you looked with your eyes open, it was pretty clear it would never happen. But if you
01:48:22 ◼ ► squinted just properly, you could almost see it. It was, now that I think about it, it was more or
01:48:27 ◼ ► less prompted by Disney stock continuing to slide and grumpy investors wanting somebody,
01:48:37 ◼ ► Well, and the only way to fix a depressed stock price immediately is for somebody to come in with
01:48:45 ◼ ► an acquisition offer at current price times 1.2. Right. And so boom, instant 20% gain in the stock.
01:48:53 ◼ ► It worked out very well for Elon and Twitter with his goofy, what was it? What's the joke? I always
01:49:12 ◼ ► It seems clear to me, it was always kind of, it was always apparent that this is quickly becoming
01:49:18 ◼ ► what we all thought of as Twitter. Maybe not in our little nerd circle, but broadly, like societally,
01:49:23 ◼ ► what was once Twitter to my eyes seems to be moving to threads. And in the last couple of
01:49:29 ◼ ► weeks to my eyes, it seems clear that's where it is. And actually I was thinking about this
01:49:34 ◼ ► just a few days ago, that after tweetbot died, my wife Erin who would browse Twitter and use it for
01:49:42 ◼ ► news, but not ever really post or anything like that. Well, when tweetbot died, she didn't enjoy
01:49:48 ◼ ► the official app. And I don't know many people that do to be honest with you. And so she just
01:49:52 ◼ ► stopped looking at Twitter, but she said to me many times, you know, Oh, this news that I used
01:49:55 ◼ ► to get via Twitter. I don't really have a source for that anymore. And a couple of days ago,
01:49:59 ◼ ► I thought to myself, you know what? I think threads has got that critical mass now that if one,
01:50:04 ◼ ► like Erin is looking for a Twitter replacement that isn't the garbage fire that Twitter is,
01:50:10 ◼ ► I think threads is there. And so I've been telling myself recently, I need to start paying more
01:50:15 ◼ ► attention and really ramping up my usage because I think that's where the people are these days. And
01:50:19 ◼ ► not to say that I have a whole lot that I need or want to broadcast, but certainly I want to be
01:50:25 ◼ ► a part of the conversation or privy to aware of the conversation if nothing else. And so
01:50:29 ◼ ► yeah, I think threads is certainly where it seems to be. And I think that from what I can tell you
01:50:33 ◼ ► and I treat threads and mastodon kind of inversely in that I am way in on mastodon. I occasionally
01:50:39 ◼ ► look at threads and it seems to me, don't let me put words in your mouth, but it seems to me that
01:50:42 ◼ ► you're kind of the opposite. Maybe a little, but I don't know. It's hard. I do. I find it far harder
01:50:51 ◼ ► than I would have even expected to try to split my time across even more than one, let alone three
01:50:57 ◼ ► or four of these things. And it's unfortunately, even though I like the product very much,
01:51:02 ◼ ► blue sky has been as the fourth one has fallen through the cracks for me. Like I still have it
01:51:08 ◼ ► on my second home screen. I still look at it once in a while. And, but it's like, I just don't have
01:51:14 ◼ ► time for it. It's debatable whether I should spend any time on any of these things, to be honest. I
01:51:20 ◼ ► think everybody has thought the same thing about Twitter over the years, but it's in hindsight,
01:51:26 ◼ ► now that I've sort of spent time across three of them. Twitter is a legacy product, which I don't
01:51:32 ◼ ► avoid. And I understand the people who are like, fuck this guy. I'm just, I'm out. I'm never posting
01:51:38 ◼ ► her again. I totally get it. I don't sort of suspect that all things considered, they're
01:51:44 ◼ ► probably more right than me to act that way. I'm sort of more, well, I'll go where the audience is.
01:51:51 ◼ ► And I still do have a lot of people who use Twitter. And I get it. So I check in and I check
01:51:58 ◼ ► my mentions, but it's like the app is so broken. Forget about the fact that Tweetbot and third-party
01:52:02 ◼ ► clients don't work anymore. It's been true all year. My, when I go to twitter.com or use the
01:52:09 ◼ ► Twitter app on my phone and I go to notifications, my mentions aren't there. They're just broken.
01:52:17 ◼ ► This has been true for, I think a full year at this point here. Let me look. So I have to,
01:52:21 ◼ ► I can like search for my name and then they all come up, but it's like, oh, it's a pain in the
01:52:26 ◼ ► ass. So I do, I check in, I check the Daring Fireball account. My bot has been broke. My
01:52:31 ◼ ► Daring Fireball bot has been broken for months. I'm going to fix, I hope I'm going to fix it over
01:52:35 ◼ ► the holiday break, but it's, that's sort of my little protest politically. It's in years past,
01:52:42 ◼ ► I would have, if my auto posting bot to the Daring Fireball account broke for some reason,
01:52:48 ◼ ► my fault or an API change or whatever, that would be like, ah, I better drop everything and fix it
01:52:59 ◼ ► But here, if I go to notifications and Twitter, yeah, it mentions my mentions. I have one December
01:53:13 ◼ ► Dave Asprey They're all from the same guy. Yeah. And then it goes to December 6th, December 5th,
01:53:18 ◼ ► and that's Ben Thompson. So somehow some of the people who you might think algorithmically would
01:53:23 ◼ ► be promoted. So I've only got like, I don't know, 15 mentions in all of December. That's not
01:53:28 ◼ ► accurate at all. It's just broken. I find it very hard to split my attention between, but-
01:53:34 ◼ ► Dave Asprey The two, but with Mastodon and Threads are so different that I actually find if I could
01:53:40 ◼ ► just abandon Twitter completely, only using Mastodon and Threads to me, pairs in a very
01:53:48 ◼ ► different way. Sort of like having a bicycle and a car where I use them for totally different
01:53:53 ◼ ► purposes. And I'm never confused which one is which as opposed to like a motorcycle and a car.
01:53:59 ◼ ► Right? It's like, well, then you're both sort of motor vehicles as you know, it's very clear.
01:54:04 ◼ ► And Mastodon to me is much more like Twitter of the original years, no algorithmic timeline.
01:54:11 ◼ ► And I'm there to follow people. And even when it's just my mentions and I get feedback from random
01:54:20 ◼ ► daring fireball readers, I know I'm seeing all my mentions in chronological order. And I can
01:54:26 ◼ ► just scroll down, see it and oh, there's one that I remember seeing yesterday or the day before. So
01:54:31 ◼ ► I'm done. I'm caught up and I'm done. Whereas the Reds is more like tuning into TV, right? It's like,
01:54:38 ◼ ► ah, I've got I'm bored. Let me see what's on Threads. And I know that you can tap a button and
01:54:43 ◼ ► get the following timeline where it shows you a chronological timeline of the people you follow.
01:54:49 ◼ ► I never even use it. It's not even the fact that it's a tap or two away and they sort of like
01:54:54 ◼ ► Instagram stubbornly insist on going back to the algorithmic timeline when you relaunch the app.
01:55:01 ◼ ► It's just a pure time waster or or like catching up on news, right? Something happens in the news
01:55:08 ◼ ► and I'll go and they do a good job of surfacing that. And my timeline in Threads is and I did
01:55:15 ◼ ► funny because it seems like since the EU joined a couple of weeks ago, there's a bunch of new users
01:55:21 ◼ ► and it seems like some people suddenly or within the last week or two have started getting more
01:55:34 ◼ ► I'm seeing like halos and harps playing like it's all dead. I don't see any right wing nuts
01:55:42 ◼ ► and there's no fights. It's just, you know, it's pretty nice, but it is sort of just like,
01:55:48 ◼ ► let me go there, scroll for a while, see if I see anything new. I often find stuff that's worth it
01:55:53 ◼ ► and I'll go to my mentions there, but it's different than Mastodon. So it pairs well where
01:55:58 ◼ ► to me it's almost like two different experiences. Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think I don't
01:56:04 ◼ ► know that I would recommend Mastodon as like a mass market social network. If you're a nerd or
01:56:09 ◼ ► enjoy nerdy things, then yeah, it makes sense. But you know, the cost of entry, not in a financial
01:56:15 ◼ ► sense, but like I know they've made it easier to understand what an instance is and what one you
01:56:20 ◼ ► would want to choose and so on, but it's just not designed for regular people. Whereas Threads,
01:56:26 ◼ ► I think very much is, and you see a lot more regular people on Threads and that comes with
01:56:31 ◼ ► some bad, but I think it's mostly a good thing. And so yeah, I don't use Threads much at the moment,
01:56:36 ◼ ► but I plan to do my best to increase my usage, even though Mastodon I think will forever be my
01:56:41 ◼ ► primary, well, maybe not forever, I shouldn't say that, but it will be my primary social network.
01:56:47 ◼ ► But I think more and more over time, I'll be paying attention to Threads and it wouldn't
01:56:50 ◼ ► surprise me if it ends up that I just stopped paying quite as much attention to Mastodon.
01:56:59 ◼ ► but it wouldn't surprise me if that 90/10 ends up floating the other way so that it's 10/90,
01:57:03 ◼ ► if you will. But we'll see what happens. But anyway, that was July. We got off on a little
01:57:06 ◼ ► bit of a tangent there, but that was July. Yeah, but it's worth it. I do think it's significant
01:57:10 ◼ ► and it is fascinating and it is kind of, I've said this, I think to Ben on dithering, but
01:57:17 ◼ ► I do see it. Threads has single-handedly changed my mind about Meta as a company in ways that I've
01:57:24 ◼ ► had to backtrack on certain assumptions. It is a much better product at a design and engineering
01:57:36 ◼ ► my eyes are wide open. I know Instagram used to be like that back when Instagram debuted,
01:57:41 ◼ ► and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 10 years from now Threads is as convoluted as
01:57:48 ◼ ► Instagram is today. Instagram is still extremely popular and I still do check in on Instagram,
01:57:59 ◼ ► But I get why more people do, right? It's become more of a mass market product and the things
01:58:04 ◼ ► they've added to Instagram that I don't really care about. I get it that like Reels and the
01:58:10 ◼ ► thing at the top, whatever they call it, are what other people like and spend more time with. And
01:58:17 ◼ ► God knows they measure it all, so they know what's engaging. It's just not engaging to me, right?
01:58:23 ◼ ► Instagram of 2011 was way more engaging to me. So I get it. Threads might get junked up and
01:58:30 ◼ ► Zuckerberg's been pretty clear, you know, like they have no ads now. Again, that was true for
01:58:34 ◼ ► Instagram for years. And for some reason, my account was blessed and I got ads. I was like
01:58:40 ◼ ► the last person on Instagram to get ads. And now I get ads like everybody else, every three posts
01:58:46 ◼ ► as I scroll the timeline. And I'm sure Threads might be like that someday too, but maybe not,
01:58:52 ◼ ► right? Because it is. Do you watch Curb Your Enthusiasm? No, I don't. But you know the general
01:58:57 ◼ ► premise and you know Larry David's thing. Is that right? Yeah. He plays himself in the show.
01:59:04 ◼ ► And so he is like in the show, he's the Larry David who co-created Seinfeld back in the 90s
01:59:12 ◼ ► and is a mega millionaire because of it and is famous because he was a creator of Seinfeld.
01:59:17 ◼ ► The difference is he doesn't have Curb Your Enthusiasm in the Curb Your Enthusiasm world,
01:59:21 ◼ ► but he's rich. But he's rich and he's spiteful. And two seasons ago, he was in a coffee shop and
01:59:31 ◼ ► he likes his coffee piping hot. And he thought the coffee he was served was not hot enough. And
01:59:37 ◼ ► the owner came over and said, "Ah, that's hot as everybody else gets it. It's plenty hot."
01:59:41 ◼ ► And he says, "If it was so hot, if it's hot, why could I can do this?" And he puts his nose into
01:59:46 ◼ ► the coffee and he's like, "It didn't burn me. Now, if this was hot coffee, my nose, I'd have
01:59:50 ◼ ► to take it out." And the guy, he gets in a fight with the coffee shop owner about whether the
01:59:54 ◼ ► coffee, just one cup of coffee is hot enough. And so what does he do? He finds out that right next
01:59:59 ◼ ► to the coffee shop, it's like in a strip mall in LA, there's a vacancy. And so he leases the
02:00:04 ◼ ► building and opens a coffee shop just to spite the guy right next to it and undercut his prices,
02:00:16 ◼ ► It's not an episode. It's like sort of like a 10 season-long story of him offering opening a spite
02:00:22 ◼ ► store. That's what Threads is, right? Threads doesn't exist if Elon doesn't buy Twitter and
02:00:30 ◼ ► Zuckerberg doesn't hate Elon. I don't know that they're in it to make money. I feel like they're
02:00:35 ◼ ► sort of like, "We make all the money we need from Instagram and the blue app and whatever else.
02:00:41 ◼ ► We're just going to build a spite network just to spite Twitter." I find that fascinating because I
02:00:49 ◼ ► don't like Elon Musk at a personal level. I actually don't. And so it's nice to root against
02:00:55 ◼ ► him and to see a rich company do this. I mean, I guess the difference from Curb Your Enthusiasm is
02:01:03 ◼ ► in the show, you kind of think Larry David's being a dick about the whole thing and the coffee shop
02:01:07 ◼ ► owner, maybe he was having a bad day. You got one cup of lukewarm coffee. In this case, it's nice to
02:01:13 ◼ ► root against Twitter, right? And it's really interesting to me as somebody who's been a
02:01:20 ◼ ► Twitter user since the very, very early days to see Meta flex their engineering muscles on this and go
02:01:27 ◼ ► from zero to 100 million users and not have the thing fall down overnight and to open up to the
02:01:33 ◼ ► whole EU and it just works. And they're adding features and improving it at like an indie
02:01:40 ◼ ► developer pace. They really are. It's astonishing. It really is interesting to just sort of observe
02:01:46 ◼ ► as a sports fan, right? No, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. And I think what's also fun
02:01:53 ◼ ► and fascinating is that when you're Elon Musk and you have effectively infinite money, who's really
02:01:59 ◼ ► going to stop you in any capacity? Like, yes, there are laws, kind of. And so there are ways
02:02:04 ◼ ► that you can be stopped. But the only person that will really stop him is someone with also infinite
02:02:11 ◼ ► money and a team of clearly very talented engineers that who knew can do things other than
02:02:15 ◼ ► sell ads. Like they actually, to your point, they brought this from nothing to an incredibly popular
02:02:26 ◼ ► and Zuckerberg has said, we'll worry about making money when we get to a billion users.
02:02:32 ◼ ► I think he means it. That's sort of what they did with Instagram. It's sort of his formula is,
02:02:37 ◼ ► build a thing that you think has the room to grow to a billion users, stick with it. And this to me
02:02:45 ◼ ► is where I do see a similarity to Apple, right? Where they're like, yeah, we'll ship this headset
02:02:51 ◼ ► that we know is going to sell in very low quantities. And we're just, we have a 10 year
02:02:55 ◼ ► plan for this, right? They had a 10. They're so good at the long game, like Apple pay, right?
02:03:00 ◼ ► I remember like when Apple pay first came out and it was like, oh, there's only like 13% of
02:03:05 ◼ ► US retail places even accept Apple pay. It's a failure or whatever. Now it's everywhere, right?
02:03:10 ◼ ► And it's the iPhone. It's like, it's one phone on one carrier in one country. It's not going to be
02:03:14 ◼ ► a big hit. Look at it now, right? Meta has sort of has that discipline with threads where they're
02:03:20 ◼ ► just like, we're just going to stick with this. And I I'm here for it. That's amazing. Yeah.
02:03:26 ◼ ► I, and as you said earlier, it's really changed my opinion of meta for the better. You know, I was
02:03:30 ◼ ► snarking a moment ago that they can do things other than sell ads, but that kind of was my
02:03:34 ◼ ► opinion for a long time was that's all they really did. That was all the real innovation they ever
02:03:38 ◼ ► did leaving aside the Oculus, Oculus is and things of that nature, but the traditional like Facebook,
02:03:42 ◼ ► as we always knew it, all they seem to do is sell ads and in shitify Instagram, because to your
02:03:48 ◼ ► point, Instagram was amazing in the late aughts and now it's, or maybe it was the early tens. I
02:03:54 ◼ ► don't know. I think it was, I think it did be debuted in 2010. Lord only knows how I remember
02:04:00 ◼ ► that, but it was, but now it's such a mess using Instagram and I still do like Instagram even
02:04:05 ◼ ► despite Instagram, but yeah, I'm very curious to see what the next few months and few years of
02:04:10 ◼ ► threads looks like, because I think there's a lot of potential there. I absolutely am here for Elon
02:04:16 ◼ ► getting his ass handed to him. I am here for that in any capacity. So I think I'm grabbing my
02:04:21 ◼ ► popcorn and I'm watching what's going down to tie it with Apple. The interesting thing is to watch
02:04:26 ◼ ► Apple sort of pretend threads isn't there. Right. And there's, there's the whole controversy that's
02:04:33 ◼ ► seemingly ended a few weeks or months ago at this point with the I forget what I have at this point,
02:04:42 ◼ ► I forget what line Elon Musk crossed that, that had everybody. What was it? It was something like
02:04:48 ◼ ► retweet something deeply anti-Semitic or something. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. It was like
02:04:52 ◼ ► something like somebody tweeted something about the terribly anti-Semitic great replacement theory
02:04:57 ◼ ► and he was like, interesting, whatever. And everybody was like, yeah. And like Disney and
02:05:01 ◼ ► GM and Procter and Gamble and all these Coca-Cola and Apple and Nike, it all just stopped advertising
02:05:15 ◼ ► everybody had Merry Christmas. I don't know if he did. I don't check Twitter enough to see it
02:05:18 ◼ ► anymore, but Tim Cook's not on threads. Every other major CEO is Andy Jassy from Amazon and
02:05:26 ◼ ► Satya Nadella and Sundar Puchai from Google. All the other CEOs are on threads and they're like,
02:05:33 ◼ ► hey, nice to be here. And you kind of read between them. Apple's not. Only Phil Schiller personally
02:05:38 ◼ ► is pretty active on threads, but now Schiller's in a weird sort of half in half out. Well,
02:05:45 ◼ ► it's like, yeah, he's not really half in or half out. He's just Phil Schiller now. Right?
02:05:50 ◼ ► Right. He's still very much engaged at Apple, I know, but he's unique. Right. And there's
02:06:00 ◼ ► Apple accounts for certain things, but they're not very active. You don't have to wonder why that is.
02:06:10 ◼ ► Actually of the rank and file Apple employees that I know, the regular engineers, there seems to be a
02:06:18 ◼ ► fairly deep, hatred is a strong word, but a very deep dislike of Meta in most of the things they
02:06:25 ◼ ► stand for. And this is just rank and file. I'm not even talking about the C-suite. Just the rank and
02:06:28 ◼ ► file engineers seem to really dislike Meta a lot. And conversely, now that I'm a little
02:06:35 ◼ ► more in touch with Meta and their engineering and stuff, you can see that Meta has resentment
02:06:45 ◼ ► personally, the whole sort of, I forget, there was a question about something with Zuckerberg
02:06:51 ◼ ► and they asked him cook what he would do. And he was like, I've never would have gotten in that
02:07:00 ◼ ► not just the executive level. I would say there's more animosity between Meta and Apple than between
02:07:06 ◼ ► any of the other, the diagram of all the other big five companies. They all are suspicious of
02:07:13 ◼ ► each other in certain ways, but the two that seem to have the most personal dislike is Apple and
02:07:19 ◼ ► Meta. Which is funny because you would think it would be Google and Apple. And I think early on,
02:07:23 ◼ ► you could make an argument that maybe there was, when Android was pivoted from what it was.
02:07:28 ◼ ► It was like more black. Well, I mean, yeah, it was the end of Steve Jobs's life was him declaring
02:07:33 ◼ ► they're going to go to war over Android copying iPhone. On the other hand, I think Apple was a
02:07:39 ◼ ► little late to embrace YouTube and eventually came around. And now the Apple channel on YouTube has
02:07:46 ◼ ► everything you'd think. They put their keynotes on it live because they know that there's, for however
02:07:53 ◼ ► many of us watch it, you know, the keynotes remotely on Apple TV or on apple.com, there's
02:07:58 ◼ ► a lot of people who are going to watch on YouTube and they put their commercials on YouTube and they
02:08:03 ◼ ► put the behind the scenes thing on YouTube for the iPhone. So I would guess that they'll do the same
02:08:10 ◼ ► with Threads, but it's sort of a wait and see. We'll be the last company to embrace Threads the
02:08:15 ◼ ► way that they were active on Twitter. But I think they're going to eventually because I think it's
02:08:20 ◼ ► sort of inevitable in a way that putting your stuff on YouTube was inevitable. I mean, and even
02:08:26 ◼ ► Microsoft who again, doesn't really have animosity towards Google, but Microsoft, you know, is very
02:08:32 ◼ ► much like Apple sort of a do our own thing. We don't use other people's stack. Microsoft puts
02:08:38 ◼ ► everything on YouTube. Everybody, if you have like a keynote and it's not on YouTube, it might as
02:08:42 ◼ ► well not exist to some segment of the population. No, it's true. It really is. I mean, I tried it
02:08:47 ◼ ► with, you know, even my own goofy live shows. I used to have them on Vimeo. I'd rather in theory,
02:08:53 ◼ ► put them on Vimeo than YouTube because I don't need YouTube's ads. I don't want their ads. I mean,
02:08:58 ◼ ► I have my own sponsors, but when I had my live talk shows on Vimeo, it was constant whack-a-mole
02:09:05 ◼ ► with people putting them on YouTube. All right. I was irritated, but when they'd show up on YouTube,
02:09:12 ◼ ► it was always people who liked my show. There's a great, great live show from WWDC. Here it is
02:09:17 ◼ ► on YouTube. I couldn't find it on YouTube. So here it is. And it's at some point you got to stop
02:09:23 ◼ ► trying to get water to run uphill. Yep. It's very true. Oh, all right. We're halfway through the
02:09:28 ◼ ► year. We're going to have to cut it short. We spent so much time on the half of the year where
02:09:33 ◼ ► Apple didn't release stuff that I know. God, yeah, this is big ATP energy right now. Well,
02:09:37 ◼ ► let me, let me just take a break here. I thank our second and final sponsor of the show, our final
02:09:41 ◼ ► sponsor of the year. Who better to wrap up sponsorships on this podcast than for the year
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02:09:52 ◼ ► website building platform. You can build your own brand online at Squarespace. Everything from
02:09:59 ◼ ► domain name registration to picking from one of dozens, hundreds of award-winning templates that
02:10:07 ◼ ► you can start with for the look of your site that you can customize to your heart's desire.
02:10:17 ◼ ► or you can do it completely in a WYSIWYG fashion right in your browser. They've got their new fluid
02:10:24 ◼ ► engine, which is what they call their next generation, or now it's the current generation
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02:10:35 ◼ ► So you can either tweak your website using your phone on Squarespace, or just build the whole
02:10:42 ◼ ► thing and design it from scratch on your phone, which I wouldn't do, but you might do. I mean,
02:10:46 ◼ ► that's what the kids are doing. They've got online stores. You can do everything from have a catalog
02:10:54 ◼ ► to doing the actual payment processing. When you do the payment processing, they've got all the
02:10:59 ◼ ► features you'd want, everything PayPal, Apple Pay support, even the newfangled stuff like Afterpay
02:11:04 ◼ ► and Clearpay, stuff like that. They integrate directly. Analytics, great analytics. You could
02:11:10 ◼ ► see who's coming to your website, how many people are coming, where are they coming from, which parts
02:11:14 ◼ ► of the website are trafficked, which ones aren't. You name it, you can do it in Squarespace.
02:11:19 ◼ ► I always say, Marco always says on the other show, you, the listener of this show, you're the nerd in
02:11:25 ◼ ► your friend circle and your family when people come with technical questions and somebody who
02:11:31 ◼ ► isn't technically minded, doesn't know the difference between HTML and CSS and JavaScript,
02:11:36 ◼ ► doesn't even know which is which, comes to you and says, what should I do with a new website?
02:11:41 ◼ ► Send them to Squarespace. It'll make them happy. It'll keep them out of your hair. They'll be able
02:11:45 ◼ ► to do it themselves. That's how approachable it is to the lay person. And give them my URL.
02:11:51 ◼ ► Send them to squarespace.com/talkshow. Or if you prefer, if you want to, I'll be magnanimous. You
02:12:03 ◼ ► If you're here for Casey, go to squarespace.com/ATP. But if you want to send them from this show,
02:12:09 ◼ ► it's squarespace.com/talkshow. Go there and using either of those codes, I believe, I know with mine,
02:12:16 ◼ ► you'll save 10% off your first purchase, which can be for like a whole year in advance. So
02:12:52 ◼ ► my bathroom, my uncased iPhone 15 Pro. Didn't break anything, didn't shatter anything, but it
02:12:59 ◼ ► has the tiniest little, it's like a dent in the titanium. It's the right kind of damage where it's
02:13:12 ◼ ► Yeah. It's patina more than... And it landed face down. So I had that moment where I was like,
02:13:18 ◼ ► oh God. And I turned it around and it's nothing. And I was like, ooh. And I didn't even notice
02:13:23 ◼ ► the little dent until like the next day. So I've got one more. Titanium total win, action button,
02:13:36 ◼ ► I still have it set to the shortcut I wrote about when I've customized a shortcut where
02:13:42 ◼ ► if the phone is face down or pointing down, like in my pocket, it toggles mute on and off
02:14:01 ◼ ► And so I've sort of been leaning towards just changing it back to just launching the camera app
02:14:09 ◼ ► because some, but I know overall it, it mostly just works for me. My shortcut where I just sort
02:14:16 ◼ ► of point it like I'm going to point a camera. And when I hold the button down, it launches the camera
02:14:20 ◼ ► app. So pretty happy with it. Yeah. I have mine set for camera and I definitely like having it.
02:14:26 ◼ ► And I know that you can do the little swipe from right to left to get to the camera, but
02:14:33 ◼ ► it doesn't freaking work. And it's probably, I'm not saying it's Apple. I think it's me not
02:14:36 ◼ ► swiping accurately or something like that, but having a physical button in order to just grab
02:14:41 ◼ ► the phone, mash down on it, and then you're in the camera. And then certainly if you leave it
02:14:45 ◼ ► set to the stock camera position, if you will, then you can also use it as a shutter, which is
02:14:50 ◼ ► super great. And I, I really enjoy having it. It's not make or break, do or die, but especially
02:14:56 ◼ ► since I, as an Apple watch person, my phone hasn't been off silent in, since 2014 when I got my first
02:15:02 ◼ ► Apple watch. And so the ring silent switch was the world's most expensive and worst idea of a
02:15:08 ◼ ► fidget spinner that I ever had, but that's what I used it for. I would just click it incessantly
02:15:11 ◼ ► and it's a miracle and never broke any of them. But having the action button is way better in
02:15:15 ◼ ► my opinion. And I'm glad that it's there, even though I don't think it's the sort of thing
02:15:21 ◼ ► that I would buy a new phone just to get that. No, I, I, I, I would never recommend somebody
02:15:26 ◼ ► buy it just for that, but it's nice overall. And I, I get it, I guess. And I loved the mute switch
02:15:34 ◼ ► and I still sometimes miss it. I forget what app I was using the other day. It was, I don't know
02:15:40 ◼ ► what it was, but I was watching video. Maybe it was threads. I don't know, but I wasn't getting
02:15:44 ◼ ► any audio in the video I was playing. And it turns out the problem is it was on silent mode. And I,
02:15:50 ◼ ► most of the time video bursts through that or sometimes it does. I'm always a little confused,
02:16:00 ◼ ► guess that's the problem and just move the mute switch while I'm still playing the video. And then
02:16:06 ◼ ► if the sound kicks in, I'm like, Oh, that was the problem. And you don't get to do that anymore.
02:16:11 ◼ ► I guess I would, if I set the action button to only always toggle mute, but it's not enough
02:16:17 ◼ ► that I miss it. You know, and the other thing is I'm the sicko who loves the key click sounds.
02:16:22 ◼ ► Oh, that's right. It's been so long since we've been around each other. I completely forgot about
02:16:27 ◼ ► that. I do like the key click sounds, but I like them, or I think I like them a little bit less now
02:16:34 ◼ ► that the iPhone finally has haptic feedback on the keyboard, which is very subtle, but that's what I
02:16:40 ◼ ► like and still do like about the key clicks is it is a form. It's like you're getting, it's not haptic,
02:16:47 ◼ ► but you're involving more of your senses. And I can't, I think I type better with my thumbs when
02:16:53 ◼ ► the clicks are on, but you know, there are times when I know it's inappropriate to do it. And one
02:16:59 ◼ ► of them is certainly when I'm in bed with my wife, that is an instant I might get shoved out of the
02:17:06 ◼ ► bed. And so I have found with this phone, I just, I kind of becoming more like most normal people
02:17:14 ◼ ► where my phone is in silent mode all the time and okay, fine. There's the rumor. I just wrote about
02:17:20 ◼ ► it today. In fact, that the next year's iPhones are going to add another button, a dedicated,
02:17:25 ◼ ► they're calling it a capture button, which I can't help but think will be, and Gurman has said,
02:17:30 ◼ ► it'll be for capturing video, but I have heard no little birdies talk about this button at all. So I
02:17:35 ◼ ► don't know, but just knowing Apple, somebody at Apple who blabbed to Gurman said that it maybe by
02:17:41 ◼ ► default it goes to video, but surely if they add that button, you'll be able to configure it. Even
02:17:47 ◼ ► if it only does camera related things, you'll be able to say, oh, always go to video, go to still
02:17:54 ◼ ► photos, use it to take still, you know, you'll be able to do more than one thing, shoot video with
02:17:59 ◼ ► it. I'm sure that would be kind of, it would almost be silly to add a button that only shoots video
02:18:04 ◼ ► or that only shoots stills, but I'm here for that. I've, as a dedicated hardware camera fan over the
02:18:11 ◼ ► decades, I do miss having a hardware shutter button and it would, that would then free up
02:18:17 ◼ ► my action button to just go back to toggling silent mode. That's true. Yeah. I'm holding my
02:18:22 ◼ ► phone now and it occurs to me like in principle, if you hold it in such a way that the action
02:18:28 ◼ ► button is on top, there's no, you know, the shutter is the action is where a shutter button would be.
02:18:34 ◼ ► But then my natural inclination is to put my finger in front of the lenses and that's no good.
02:18:39 ◼ ► So if you flip it the other way, such that you have a button on the other side, on the same side
02:18:44 ◼ ► as the lock switch or lock button or whatever they call it, then it makes a lot more sense because
02:18:49 ◼ ► your natural place to put your finger is no longer in the way of the lens array. So I get it. I mean,
02:18:54 ◼ ► it does make sense. And again, I do have a micro four thirds camera and although I use it increasingly
02:18:59 ◼ ► rarely these days, I still do love having a physical camera. And I agree with you having a
02:19:03 ◼ ► physical shutter button is pretty great. I just told you I like it with the action button and it
02:19:06 ◼ ► would be even better positioned more like a physical shutter in a big camera. Yeah. And I
02:19:12 ◼ ► will also say, I think year in year out for years now, a very long stretch ever since the camera app
02:19:21 ◼ ► became more than utterly simplistic, right? Like the original first few years of the iPhone,
02:19:34 ◼ ► number one A team of interface designers. I think it is, if I had to do like a lecture on
02:19:42 ◼ ► interface user interface design, I could imagine doing an entire lecture just on the interface
02:19:48 ◼ ► design of the iPhone camera app. It is so good. I think it looks good. I think it's got such an
02:19:55 ◼ ► incredible attention to detail. And a truly immense amount of complexity that has to be hidden. I mean,
02:20:01 ◼ ► if you look at the camera app by default, there's a few buttons across the top and the slider of
02:20:06 ◼ ► video, photo, et cetera, et cetera, and the lens selector, but there's not a lot of stuff here.
02:20:11 ◼ ► And you can do the little dropy downy thing when that's when you get a lot more controls, but
02:20:15 ◼ ► it is surprising how basic and safe it looks unless you want to go digging. And that's really important
02:20:24 ◼ ► because you got to cater to everyone and a more amateur or perhaps even a professional photographer
02:20:29 ◼ ► can get a lot of what they want in the camera app. But someone who doesn't really care about that
02:20:34 ◼ ► stuff, they just have the big white button that's always been there and they can point and shoot and
02:20:37 ◼ ► be fairly confident that it's going to work. Yeah. So I, with that team, I just anticipate,
02:20:43 ◼ ► I guess it's wishful thinking, but I just think that team will think of clever ways to use a
02:20:48 ◼ ► dedicated hardware button that I can't even imagine. And I can't wait to see it. And supposedly
02:20:53 ◼ ► it's a force, you know, won't actually move button. It'll be like the old touch ID button
02:20:58 ◼ ► that's that uses haptic feedback. My idiot idea is to just make it like a dedicated hardware camera
02:21:05 ◼ ► where you half press to focus and like exposure lock and then full press to shoot. But I wouldn't
02:21:11 ◼ ► be surprised if that camera team thinks of even more clever ways to just one simple button with
02:21:16 ◼ ► force sensitivity, do really clever things. I can't wait. Yeah. I don't have much more to say
02:21:22 ◼ ► though about the iPhones. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I really like them. I went big phone for
02:21:30 ◼ ► I think for the most part, I do like it. I've turned into one of those dorks that has a pop
02:21:35 ◼ ► socket on the back because this is not a one hand phone. It's just not, I mean, maybe if you have
02:21:39 ◼ ► freakishly large, large hands, but I have normal person hands and it's just not a one handed phone.
02:21:44 ◼ ► So I've seen that there are some rumblings that maybe next year, the pro, but not pro max would
02:21:50 ◼ ► get the same zoom lens that the only the pro max got for the iPhone 15. And although I do love the
02:21:56 ◼ ► real estates of the 15 pro max, I would probably think real hard and perhaps would even go back to
02:22:04 ◼ ► the 15 pro because it's just so much nicer to have a phone that you can easily use in one hand.
02:22:09 ◼ ► I stand by the decision I made. I think I would make it again today given the iPhone 15 lineup.
02:22:22 ◼ ► That was always the pattern. I mean, it's always a pattern until Apple breaks it, but in the
02:22:26 ◼ ► like iPhone 6, 7, 8 era, or maybe not 8, there would be years when the plus camera would have
02:22:34 ◼ ► features that the regular one like optical image stabilization debuted in, I don't know,
02:22:51 ◼ ► I'm thinking portrait mode wasn't it's it was always, it was always things that made sense
02:22:57 ◼ ► would take some extra physical space in the actual hardware. But every time they did it,
02:23:04 ◼ ► and back then I never once to come to buying the plus phone, even though every time it hurt me that
02:23:09 ◼ ► I was no longer having the best camera on my iPhone. Same, but every time they did it the next
02:23:14 ◼ ► year, that feature would come to the regular sized iPhone. And that would, you know, if the rumor is
02:23:20 ◼ ► true, and it's not just people speculating, it seems to be coming from the supply chain,
02:23:24 ◼ ► that's going to happen with the 5x zoom next year. So I guess that's good. I say I guess because
02:23:35 ◼ ► I sort of wanted to zoom in. Amy has a Pro Max and I was looking for her phone. I was going to
02:23:41 ◼ ► use her phone to shoot the picture, but I couldn't find her phone. She had it like upstairs or
02:23:46 ◼ ► something. So I, you know, I guess more often than I want 3x, I do want as much reach as possible,
02:23:54 ◼ ► right? The conundrum is if you do want like a 3x zoom for the framing purposes, the Pro Max is
02:24:03 ◼ ► worse because it has to upscale the 2x camera to the 3x range or 4x range. But that trade-off
02:24:11 ◼ ► overall, I think you want the most reach possible more often than you really want the highest
02:24:17 ◼ ► possible 3x accuracy. Yeah, it could be more, especially in my point in life when we have two
02:24:22 ◼ ► kids in elementary school and elementary school performances are a thing and things of that nature.
02:24:27 ◼ ► And so reach matters. Reach matters. Reach matters big time. I'm surprised if you were looking for
02:24:33 ◼ ► Amy's phone, you didn't do the find my friends thing with the ultra wide band. You know what
02:24:37 ◼ ► I'm talking about? Because I've tried that a handful of times with Aaron and I in like a store
02:24:41 ◼ ► or whatever, and it isn't perfect, but my goodness, when it works, it is magic. I've not used that yet
02:24:49 ◼ ► because we just don't go out that much. But it wasn't important enough to spend more than 10
02:24:56 ◼ ► seconds looking for the phone. And it wasn't a fleeting moment per se. It was a guy on a cherry
02:25:03 ◼ ► picker across the street doing something on the roof of somebody's building. He was going to be
02:25:06 ◼ ► in the cherry picker for a while, but I didn't feel like hunting for the phone. But what else?
02:25:10 ◼ ► iOS 17, I guess that's, I'd give it part of my overall thumbs up for the year is a general idea
02:25:18 ◼ ► that Apple has, as all of their platforms have stabilized, they've taken a sort of, if it ain't
02:25:25 ◼ ► broke, don't fix it approach. I don't have, it's not just that we're two hours and 40 minutes into
02:25:32 ◼ ► this and I want to rush, but I don't have much to say about iOS 17 other than overall, then pretty
02:25:39 ◼ ► solid year. And it was, there were no, ooh, don't upgrade yet moments. They sort of have done a good
02:25:46 ◼ ► job. I think they've done an ever better job each year taking not fully cooked features and just
02:25:53 ◼ ► waiting to put them in 17.2 or 17.3 or something like that. Yeah, I totally agree with you.
02:26:00 ◼ ► Although it occurs to me, I think iOS 17 could have alone gotten a thumbs up from me for the rest,
02:26:08 ◼ ► even if the rest of the year was trash, iOS 17 could have gotten a thumbs up strictly because
02:26:13 ◼ ► they finally fixed the fucking autocorrect that was driving me bananas on the last like three or
02:26:19 ◼ ► four versions of iOS. And 17, every great once in a while, I'll have like a weird capitalization or
02:26:25 ◼ ► it'll go from two words that genuinely belong together and then it'll go off into La La Land
02:26:32 ◼ ► and replace with some other words. But that was happening always in iOS 16. And now it happens
02:26:38 ◼ ► once a week at most. I mean, maybe your experience is different, but mine has been so much better.
02:26:43 ◼ ► And that alone has made it okay to type on my phone again, because it was the worst in iOS 16.
02:26:49 ◼ ► It was so bad and it was so infuriating. It's argued, I would put it up there as one of the most
02:26:56 ◼ ► invisible features when it works, right? You really don't, it's good of you to call it out
02:27:00 ◼ ► and think about it. But my, I have to think back, I'm like rolling my eyes in my head and thinking,
02:27:06 ◼ ► yeah, I haven't had a complaint about autocorrect in a long time. So yeah, kudos to them. And it's
02:27:12 ◼ ► sort of, to me, emblematic of Apple's approach to AI and machine learning and stuff where they're not
02:27:19 ◼ ► doing, and I don't think it's just out of character for them to do wow, holy crap things like
02:27:28 ◼ ► chat GPTs or the image generation things. They're just sort of make things nicer and do it in an
02:27:36 ◼ ► invisible way that doesn't really stick out, right? It's pretty good. Although on the other hand,
02:27:42 ◼ ► I guess the other thing in September, we can just roll right into Apple Watch discussion.
02:27:46 ◼ ► WatchOS 10 is a huge upgrade, right? And I still, I kind of have mixed feelings about it.
02:27:55 ◼ ► They did bring back in the last update, like a couple weeks ago, the swipe between watch faces
02:28:02 ◼ ► thing, which to me was baffling that they got rid of. I say that, but I mean, cause I use it all the
02:28:08 ◼ ► time. That's like the way I use my Apple Watch is I have like three faces that I swipe between
02:28:13 ◼ ► with varying amounts of complications. But like my main one is just, it's very simple version of the
02:28:20 ◼ ► utility face with the weather in the top left. I've got the date in that three o'clock marker
02:28:26 ◼ ► inside the watch face on utility. And that's it. It's just a simple analog watch with hour,
02:28:32 ◼ ► minute, second hands, no numbers, just a simple face, very minimal. But then, you know, like I
02:28:38 ◼ ► swipe to the side and I have the exact same watch face, but with fantastic call underneath. So if I
02:28:43 ◼ ► know I have events coming up, but then if I know I have nothing coming up, I just swipe over to the
02:28:48 ◼ ► side and instead of saying no more events or something down there, just nothing, just blank.
02:28:53 ◼ ► I thought it was crazy that they got rid of that, but they really sort of rejiggered the whole
02:28:59 ◼ ► watchOS interface, right? Like notification center. They added this smart dock that comes
02:29:05 ◼ ► up from the bottom, but that's where control center used to be. And now to get to control
02:29:10 ◼ ► center, you have to hit the side button, but hitting the side button used to bring it to
02:29:13 ◼ ► the app switcher. It's, I don't know. I don't, I just don't love Apple watch enough to really
02:29:19 ◼ ► care that much. I don't know. I mean, I, but it is weird Apple watch, but I agree with you that
02:29:25 ◼ ► it's not a platform that is so integral to my life that changes like this. I mean, some of them
02:29:30 ◼ ► are weird. Some of them are not, but it doesn't totally shatter my world one way or the other.
02:29:35 ◼ ► It did shatter Aaron's world when they killed swipe to change faces, which like you said,
02:29:40 ◼ ► they brought back, but she uses a album face as her watch face, it's an album with the kids,
02:29:45 ◼ ► and it has the time on it and basically nothing else. I think that's all they allow you to put
02:29:48 ◼ ► on it. But then she would swipe over one to get to the complications for like fitness and stuff
02:29:53 ◼ ► like that. She looks at several times a day, and now you can presumably swipe up and do that widget
02:29:59 ◼ ► kind of like the Siri watch face used to be, but it was certainly a period of much consternation
02:30:05 ◼ ► from her that she couldn't just swipe laterally like she was used to doing. But no, I think all
02:30:10 ◼ ► in all, the changes are good. It looks good. Like Carrot Weather, although I don't typically
02:30:13 ◼ ► use it outside of a complication on my watch face, on the occasions that I tap into Carrot Weather,
02:30:18 ◼ ► it looks beautiful. The, what is it? Brian Muller, I believe, really did a good job embracing the new
02:30:24 ◼ ► design paradigms and obviously Underscore has been doing a lot of great work with what he's got in on
02:30:28 ◼ ► the watch. But yeah, I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was like a nothing burger because
02:30:33 ◼ ► there was a lot of improvements, but nothing that I can look at and say, yep, that's the thing that
02:30:37 ◼ ► really changed my life for the better. Yeah, it's, I guess I've just sort of procrastinated on
02:30:43 ◼ ► reviewing watchOS 10 and there's just not much to say about the hardware, right? I mean, really,
02:30:49 ◼ ► they just added the double tap feature. And I know it's a new system on a chip and they'd actually
02:30:54 ◼ ► gone a couple of years without revving that. And with my review unit, the main thing I noticed was
02:31:01 ◼ ► I do think the significantly increased battery life, which for a daily product is great. It's
02:31:12 ◼ ► Day long battery life, you're always going to be a little stressed about it, right? And day and a
02:31:16 ◼ ► half, you're still going to need to charge it every night, but you don't need to stress about
02:31:28 ◼ ► I'll just say okay to letting you track it as a fitness event, even though you know that those
02:31:34 ◼ ► fitness events really do drain the battery. Increasing battery life is great, but literally
02:31:39 ◼ ► otherwise, like from the outside, indistinguishable from series eight and ultra one. It's the OS that
02:31:45 ◼ ► changed. There's a rumor again, I think Gurman's on it. Other people have too, that next year they
02:31:51 ◼ ► might even call it series 10 with an X like they did with iPhone 10 and finally change the strap
02:31:59 ◼ ► adapters. You guys talked about it at length on ATP. No, I don't see how anybody can complain. I
02:32:04 ◼ ► mean, people will complain because the watch straps are expensive, but 10 years is a long run. So
02:32:10 ◼ ► if they do change it, that'd be interesting. But to me, the interesting difference is when they
02:32:16 ◼ ► totally changed how the iPhone paradigm worked and got rid of the home button, went to a full screen,
02:32:21 ◼ ► they had to change the OS to accommodate that, right? They went hand in hand. The weird thing,
02:32:30 ◼ ► maybe not weird, but different is that this was the year with watchOS 10 where they rejiggered
02:32:35 ◼ ► all of the way the interface works. So the side button does a different thing. You swipe up for
02:32:39 ◼ ► a different thing. You swipe, you do this for a different thing. The navigation is totally
02:32:50 ◼ ► with a watch that looked exactly like last year's, right? And if they change next year's watch to
02:32:56 ◼ ► look different, like, oh, I can just tell at a glance on your wrist, you've got the new Apple
02:33:01 ◼ ► Watch X. I don't think there's going to be any OS change accordingly, right? Because they already
02:33:08 ◼ ► did that this year. But yeah, I think you're right. And with regard to the bands, just briefly,
02:33:23 ◼ ► she was on the smaller, now I'm on the smaller size. It'll bum me out to lose our collection.
02:33:28 ◼ ► Not that we have anything fancy or expensive. We're not rocking a black link bracelet or
02:33:32 ◼ ► anything like that. But nevertheless- I still have mine, but it's from the Series Zero.
02:33:41 ◼ ► too cheap to do it. But nevertheless, it'll bum me out if we do switch sizes. But to your point,
02:33:46 ◼ ► I mean, 10 years is perfectly reasonable. And actually, just very briefly, not that we have
02:33:50 ◼ ► any need to go on any longer, but I am surprised, speaking of nothing burgers, the USB-C transition
02:33:57 ◼ ► in terms of complaining, that was a nothing burger. Like, I can't think of a single person
02:34:01 ◼ ► that I heard, not even like a friend of a friend of a friend, that complained about it. Everyone
02:34:05 ◼ ► seems completely copacetic with it, and nobody had any problems, which is good. I mean, I'm glad.
02:34:18 ◼ ► Yeah, Amy complained a little bit because of- oh, I know what it was. She still had AirPods Pro 1,
02:34:48 ◼ ► the complaint's gone. But that wasn't really a complaint about the iPhone switching to USB-C.
02:35:06 ◼ ► pads and keyboards still being lightning. And that doesn't bother me as much, since it's like
02:35:10 ◼ ► a once a month or once every couple of weeks kind of situation. But it did strike me as a little
02:35:15 ◼ ► weird that Apple couldn't find the time to update their peripherals. I mean, they even did- it took
02:35:20 ◼ ► a few months, but they even did the case only for the AirPods Pro. You can get an AirPods Pro USB-C
02:35:27 ◼ ► case without the actual earbuds, but we still haven't gotten new keyboards or track pads or
02:35:32 ◼ ► mice or anything like that. Yeah, I think it kind of speaks to how important the iMac is.
02:35:41 ◼ ► You know, I mean, is it a big deal that they just ship the exact same keyboards and track
02:35:46 ◼ ► pads and mouse? No, but you know, surely that upgrade is coming. But you know, so what? It
02:35:52 ◼ ► didn't come yet. I guess that leads us into October, which was the M3 series MacBook Pros.
02:36:01 ◼ ► And I'm so glad I've got you on the show. I want to tell you that this is the one area where I feel
02:36:08 ◼ ► most aligned with you on ATP, especially with Marco giving you shit about picking a 14-inch
02:36:14 ◼ ► over a 16-inch, right? So for people who don't listen to ATP, Casey has a 14-inch new space
02:36:20 ◼ ► black, right? You're not an animal. Marco got the 16-inch and the 16-inch basically has more thermal
02:36:29 ◼ ► headroom for sustained performance. And Marco gives you a lot of grief about it. But I think
02:36:34 ◼ ► that's ridiculous. I'm a 14-inch man myself. And I think your explanation that you don't run into
02:36:42 ◼ ► the thermal limits of the 14, so why would you care? I honestly don't get it. I feel like it's
02:36:48 ◼ ► sort of he doth protest too much. And I think Marco ribs you about it because he's the one
02:37:00 ◼ ► That's very true. And I mean, obviously part of the shtick of ATP is to just give each other
02:37:05 ◼ ► stick. But the only time it ever bothers me is when I'm doing some sort of transcode of some
02:37:10 ◼ ► sort of video file, which honestly, 98% of the time I'm doing that when the computer's sitting
02:37:22 ◼ ► Generally speaking, that is absolutely correct. I can't think of a time I did do it on an airplane.
02:37:26 ◼ ► But either way, in one breath, I'll tell you that the M3 versus the M1, I have an M3 max and I had
02:37:32 ◼ ► an M1 max. I wouldn't say that they're night and day different in terms of speed. I mean,
02:37:41 ◼ ► speeds in which I can transcode stuff using FFmpeg on the command line and it is considerably faster
02:37:47 ◼ ► from what I can tell. Like at the frame rate, it's not a frame rate, I'm doing like 10 to 15
02:37:51 ◼ ► X sometimes doing an HEVC in code and that is pretty great. And additionally, I love that M1
02:37:57 ◼ ► max to death. Like that computer was probably my favorite computer I've ever owned in my life.
02:38:02 ◼ ► It was all of the great stuff from my iMac Pro, which I also adored, but I could take it up and
02:38:11 ◼ ► This one is that cranked to 11 and oh my, I am such a sucker for the space black. I am such a
02:38:18 ◼ ► sucker for it. It looks so good. And I probably would have bought anything they sold me as long
02:38:25 ◼ ► as it had that color because I'm a complete sucker. So what is Christina Warren has the
02:38:29 ◼ ► rose gold? I think that's her like kryptonite. Well, for me, it's space black, just a blackish
02:38:34 ◼ ► laptop. Get me more black if you can, I'll do it every time. Yeah. So I'm sticking with my M1 max
02:38:41 ◼ ► 14 inch MacBook Pro, which I bought when it was new two plus years ago and maxed out. I have the
02:38:47 ◼ ► most storage I think is four terabytes. I have the most RAM you can get, which is 64 gigabytes. It
02:38:54 ◼ ► was like $5,000. And when I was reviewing the M3 14 inch, I mean, the Apple sent me like literally
02:39:04 ◼ ► the laptop I would buy, I guess it has less storage, but you know, I don't need storage on a
02:39:10 ◼ ► review unit. Right. But it was maxed out at RAM, which is what is the max now? Is it 96 or 128?
02:39:16 ◼ ► 120. They gave me one with 120. I was so in there. I still think I think it's phenomenal.
02:39:21 ◼ ► And I thought as I was using it for a week and a half to write my review, I'm like, I'm going to
02:39:27 ◼ ► buy one of these because I just want it so bad. And it's like, I could just, I'll either say, I
02:39:32 ◼ ► often don't sell my old stuff, but it's like, well, with an M1 max, you know, that I paid $5,000
02:39:38 ◼ ► for I'll sell it. Or maybe, you know, I just like testing Jonas. Do you need a new laptop? How's
02:39:44 ◼ ► your MacBook Air holding up? Please say yes. But then ultimately I went back to my M1 max,
02:39:52 ◼ ► my personal one that's two years old. And I didn't notice a single thing different. I mean, like
02:39:58 ◼ ► where the way I use a Mac and I don't even do anything like the transcoding things you do with
02:40:03 ◼ ► that, I even think I'd run into it. I always notice going backwards to a slightly slower device more
02:40:11 ◼ ► than I noticed getting the new review unit with the latest and greatest. But I mean, I literally
02:40:17 ◼ ► could not tell anything was any, that's how fast my M1 max. So I was like, you know what, I'll just,
02:40:22 ◼ ► I'm good. I'll just, I'm going to be a big boy. And I put that beautiful, beautiful space black
02:40:28 ◼ ► thing back in the box so I wouldn't be able to see it. And I'm back to space gray and I'm like,
02:40:40 ◼ ► I was going to say the world is turned upside down where I'm the one spending money like it's going
02:40:52 ◼ ► I just literally couldn't notice anything. It's that good. And for my needs, I have this terrible,
02:40:59 ◼ ► terrible browser tab, have hundreds of browser tabs open. But I was 64 gigabytes in the 18 months
02:41:08 ◼ ► to two years of all the times I've ever looked in activity monitor. I've only seen swap used once.
02:41:14 ◼ ► And it was like two megabytes. I don't know. It was like ridiculous. It was like the tiniest amount
02:41:19 ◼ ► of swap. And then I went over and typed uptime and it was like uptime 27 days. And I'm like,
02:41:24 ◼ ► oh, I could just restart. Yep. That's why with this one, I did get more storage because I
02:41:31 ◼ ► apparently really hate money, but you want to keep it for years, right? Well, that's the theory,
02:41:36 ◼ ► but I upgraded in two years, Marco as well, kind of Marco style. But nevertheless, I stuck with 64
02:41:41 ◼ ► gigs. I could have, like, I had told myself that, hey, you know, if you want to go all in on this,
02:41:47 ◼ ► like I did with the prior one with the M1, then just go all in. It'll be fine. But I was in a
02:41:52 ◼ ► similar boat where when it comes to RAM, especially since I'm not doing heavy GPU stuff, it just didn't
02:41:57 ◼ ► seem worth it. And so I stuck with 64 gigs. I went eight terabytes because I don't ever want to have
02:42:01 ◼ ► to think about running out of storage. And we were talking about this earlier. I'm long since done
02:42:05 ◼ ► worrying about storage, but I stuck with 64 gigs because I don't think I need more than that. I
02:42:10 ◼ ► mean, remind me of this in a year when I buy the M4 with 3000 gigs or three terabytes of RAM, but
02:42:16 ◼ ► you know, sitting here now, I don't think I need it. Yeah. Going back to my personal M1 and
02:42:22 ◼ ► realizing, you know, of course I'm not noticing any slowdowns because I never swap with 64.
02:42:27 ◼ ► The last spec that I always thought I was enough of a power user that I could never get enough of
02:42:34 ◼ ► was RAM. And I have to admit that even my browser habit, 64 gigabytes is good enough for me for now.
02:42:41 ◼ ► Some paraphrasing of the Bill Gates, 640 kilobytes of memory should be enough for anyone. 64 gigabytes
02:42:48 ◼ ► of RAM, at least in 2023 remains enough for me, which again is ridiculous. Syracuse and I,
02:42:57 ◼ ► so we were talking about my old Power Mac 9600 350 desktop thing. And I was looking up the specs and
02:43:04 ◼ ► honest to God, I was like confused. I got totally confused about megabytes and gigabytes. I was like,
02:43:09 ◼ ► wait, I remember thinking, cause when I bought it, I remember thinking, oh my God, it has so
02:43:15 ◼ ► much RAM. This is glorious. And it was like, I don't know, 64 megabytes of RAM. I mean,
02:43:21 ◼ ► it's like ridiculous at the time it seemed luxurious, but then it very quickly it's only,
02:43:27 ◼ ► this is the first, my M1 Macs MacBook Pro is the first time in my entire life where I feel like I
02:43:33 ◼ ► have more RAM than I need. Yep. Yeah. I think that's probably true. I don't remember how much
02:43:37 ◼ ► I had in my iMac Pro cause I think I had quite a bit, but I don't know. I think it was, I had 64
02:43:42 ◼ ► gigs in the iMac Pro and that's why I went 64 in the M1 is cause I didn't want to go backwards,
02:43:47 ◼ ► even though I knew it wasn't, you know, apples weren't exactly apples in this situation,
02:43:50 ◼ ► but I didn't want to go backwards. And yeah, I think once I hit Apple Silicon, it's been
02:43:55 ◼ ► plenty for me and I'm doing, you know, a fair bit with Xcode. I occasionally run Final Cut Pro
02:43:59 ◼ ► and I never run into a problem. I'm now rocking three 5k screens and it's still not an issue.
02:44:05 ◼ ► I will say, I think it's worth commenting on. I have it in the notes here, but I thought really
02:44:10 ◼ ► interesting and worth commemorating in the year in review thing is the fact that Apple shot the
02:44:23 ◼ ► Yep. Yep. Yep. And I know that they announced it and the first reaction everybody had was,
02:44:28 ◼ ► wow, they shot that with iPhone. I had no idea. And then the half a second later was, yeah,
02:44:33 ◼ ► with a crew of 60 professional cinematographers and a drone and a crane and all of this stuff.
02:44:41 ◼ ► And of course they did that. It's still though, both things can be true. They, yes, they still
02:44:47 ◼ ► had a probably millions plus dollar budget to shoot the damn thing and used world-class crew,
02:44:55 ◼ ► right? But they did. They shot the damn thing with iPhones. And I find that incredibly inspiring.
02:45:02 ◼ ► And it's in the same way that I love iPhone photography contests, or I know this year he
02:45:09 ◼ ► didn't do it, but a friend of the show, do you ever meet Austin Mann? If you know, I know who
02:45:14 ◼ ► you're talking about, but I've never met him. I've met him a couple of times. You'd love him. He's
02:45:18 ◼ ► just a genuinely aces person, but like for several years in a row, he would go to exotic places like
02:45:27 ◼ ► shoot silverback gorillas in Africa or lions on the planes and test the new iPhone camera.
02:45:33 ◼ ► And of course I can't shoot photographs a fraction as good as Austin Mann or anybody who's won
02:45:41 ◼ ► iPhone photography contests or had their photos chosen by Apple for the decade plus long shot with
02:45:49 ◼ ► iPhone billboard campaign. But I love them because they're inspiring to me. There's what I know is
02:45:56 ◼ ► the bar for shooting with this camera that's right in my pocket right now. Somebody did that.
02:46:02 ◼ ► It's like a stretch goal. I really admire them for doing it. And I think it's a genuine feather
02:46:09 ◼ ► in their cap. And I think kind of shows, I know everybody wants to chalk up the switch to USB-C
02:46:16 ◼ ► as being entirely forced by the EU regulations, but talking to people at Apple, and of course,
02:46:22 ◼ ► some people at Apple are going to be prone to resist admitting that the EU forced their hand.
02:46:28 ◼ ► But I really do think that even absent that regulation that the iPhone might've switched to
02:46:33 ◼ ► US, the iPhone pro models, at least maybe they wouldn't have switched the non-pro ones, but
02:46:38 ◼ ► they didn't just change the charging port. They added legitimately pro features where you can
02:46:44 ◼ ► do these incredibly pro things and shoot your high-res video to an external SSD. In fact,
02:46:50 ◼ ► you can shoot, I think 4K pro res, you can only shoot to an external storage device. It's a
02:46:58 ◼ ► genuinely professional feature. And there's no way, I mean, I know from talking to people at
02:47:03 ◼ ► Apple, that's the reason this was the first time they shot an event with iPhone cameras,
02:47:08 ◼ ► because they needed that. They actually, it's not, I think optically they could have done it before.
02:47:14 ◼ ► I think the video was good enough optical quality in some ways, but the actual technical reasons
02:47:20 ◼ ► that they want USB-C out at a high speed to shoot to a storage device, I think it's tremendous and
02:47:28 ◼ ► just inspiring. And sure, student filmmakers aren't going to have a budget like Apple does for this,
02:47:35 ◼ ► but never underestimate how clever, talented young filmmakers can be. And the cameras right there,
02:47:43 ◼ ► they already have it. Yep. Yeah. I don't know if you, are you familiar with Tyler Stahlman?
02:47:47 ◼ ► Has he ever been on the show? I don't recall. Okay. No, he's not been on the show, but I
02:47:51 ◼ ► am trying to think if I met him. I might've been introduced to him through Whiskas, I forget,
02:48:08 ◼ ► just really tremendous work. And just in the last 24 or 48 hours, he announced the Stahlman Clamp,
02:48:15 ◼ ► which is a pro-level iPhone clamp that's designed for vertical video, which admittedly vertical
02:48:23 ◼ ► video is not my thing because I'm an old, but the point is that it is, I think that this is
02:48:29 ◼ ► indicative of kind of the ripple effect of the shot on iPhone thing from the keynote, because
02:48:35 ◼ ► I think Tyler is smart enough that he would have landed here regardless, but it's proof that you
02:48:47 ◼ ► designing and building the Stahlman Clamp to use in a professional context unless he wanted to use
02:48:53 ◼ ► it, right? And so the fact that the iPhone can be used for real honest to goodness professional work,
02:48:58 ◼ ► I mean, it's used for an Apple keynote for goodness sakes. Like, it's clear that it has
02:49:08 ◼ ► deeply inspiring. Now, it will never look as good as an Apple keynote without having, you know,
02:49:12 ◼ ► Tyler's experience and Apple's budget, but it can look pretty darn good. And knowing that you can
02:49:19 ◼ ► get that quality from the phone that's already in your pocket is incredibly, incredibly inspiring.
02:49:24 ◼ ► Pete: Yeah. Do you think they're going to keep shooting future keynotes always with iPhones?
02:49:29 ◼ ► Jared. That's a great question. I would say, I would think they will. I'm not super convinced,
02:49:40 ◼ ► but I think they will. Pete. I sort of, but I wonder, like with this one, because they wanted
02:49:47 ◼ ► to be able to say it was entirely shot with iPhone, every single shot was shot with iPhone.
02:49:51 ◼ ► I wonder if there'll be that dogmatic about it. Like if there are certain shots that it's like,
02:50:06 ◼ ► shot with iPhone and red cameras or something like that. But I kind of think they will. And I know
02:50:14 ◼ ► that some people, it might have even been Tyler who did it. I know that there were some people
02:50:18 ◼ ► who deconstructed that video after it came out. And sort of showed some of the telltale signs in
02:50:25 ◼ ► hindsight. I mean, a big one is depth of field, where with a bigger sensor and bigger glass,
02:50:32 ◼ ► you can get that natural bokeh effect. And because of the nature of a tiny little camera,
02:50:39 ◼ ► you don't get that optical bokeh. And so you could see that in some of the shots in the keynote where
02:50:45 ◼ ► everything's in focus from the foreground to the background or more in focus than it would have
02:50:50 ◼ ► been with other ones. But I also think that's sort of the look of these keynote shows Apple
02:50:56 ◼ ► produces anyway. They don't really go for a blurry background. You can kind of see it. So I kind of
02:51:04 ◼ ► think they'll keep doing it. Because I think it's just literally going back like 20, 25 years where
02:51:10 ◼ ► they made like little badges you could put on your website made on a Mac. It was like a thing. Apple
02:51:15 ◼ ► had it on their website. It used to be a thing Mac users who made websites would do, made on a Mac.
02:51:21 ◼ ► I think it is. It kind of lets them sort of advertise the iPhone in keynotes for anything.
02:51:31 ◼ ► So it's like they've probably already shot it, I'm guessing, the Vision Pro keynote, or at least
02:51:36 ◼ ► have shot much of it. So it can be this keynote that's all about the Vision Pro coming in a month
02:51:42 ◼ ► or six weeks or something supposedly. But then it serves as an iPhone ad at the very end shot
02:51:48 ◼ ► Yep. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it wouldn't surprise me if they were, I don't know if "negged"
02:51:52 ◼ ► is really the word I'm looking for, but if they were "negged" on it. But like you said,
02:51:55 ◼ ► a moment ago, it's a feather in the cap. So it is pretty cool to be able to say, "Look,
02:52:00 ◼ ► this is why you get the latest and greatest Apple stuff. Because look what you can do with it,"
02:52:03 ◼ ► leaving aside the $50,000 in lighting and the 15 people that are working in it. But nonetheless,
02:52:07 ◼ ► it can be done. And you know how much they love shot on iPhone, how much they love talking about
02:52:12 ◼ ► music videos and films that were shot on the iPhone. So yeah, I think they'll probably at
02:52:17 ◼ ► least try. Or and certainly I think even if it's not every single one, I would suspect it's at
02:52:26 ◼ ► Yeah, but I kind of think it makes more sense to just do them all. Because then if they have one
02:52:30 ◼ ► that doesn't have that credit, then everybody will be like, "Well, why?" And everybody will be like,
02:52:35 ◼ ► "Deconstructing it." It's sort of a measure twice cut once sort of thing, I think, where they're
02:52:43 ◼ ► like, "If we really are going to do this, we're going to have to commit to doing it henceforth."
02:52:46 ◼ ► And I kind of think they did. Speaking of, we're getting towards the end, there's not much left
02:52:52 ◼ ► to talk about. But speaking of shooting on iPhone, one of the new things that came out after October
02:52:58 ◼ ► was the spatial video feature. Have you been shooting spatial video now that the feature's out?
02:53:04 ◼ ► Yeah, multiple times. You know, Christmas just happened and it didn't even occur to me because
02:53:08 ◼ ► I'm just not programmed for it yet. It didn't even occur to me to shoot any spatial video.
02:53:12 ◼ ► I noticed I'm a really bad videographer in the sense that I don't think to take video often. And
02:53:18 ◼ ► I have little kids and I should be taking way more video, but I just don't think about it. I think
02:53:22 ◼ ► more in stills than I do in video. And I need to fix that. Aaron is much better at taking video
02:53:27 ◼ ► than I am. And so I definitely need to take more video, period. And I think while the spatial video
02:53:35 ◼ ► is kind of neutered a little bit, insofar as it's 1080 only, and I think it's what, 30 frames per
02:53:39 ◼ ► second? I think what I'll probably do is try to alternate back and forth, or every second or third
02:53:44 ◼ ► video I'll try to remember to do spatially. Because I suspect there will come a time that there will
02:53:48 ◼ ► be some hardware in my life that can show me a spatial video. And I can only imagine how cool it
02:53:54 ◼ ► would be, and I mean, jump in when you're ready, but how cool it would be to relive a moment like
02:54:24 ◼ ► It was a beautiful day, Thanksgiving here, and the kids were all out in the yard playing,
02:54:31 ◼ ► and it was just perfect. It was almost like an Apple commercial. It was a beautiful sunny day.
02:54:36 ◼ ► So I shot tons of video knowing... I didn't know I was going to get to preview it at the time,
02:54:46 ◼ ► And then I got to use those clips and see them. And it wasn't... I mean, maybe I'm too cold. I
02:54:53 ◼ ► don't know. It didn't make me cry. But on the other hand, at the time, it was three weeks old,
02:55:05 ◼ ► waterworks will fire up. It's too fresh to be nostalgic, but it is immersive in a way that a
02:55:15 ◼ ► regular video isn't. It's not super 3D. It is 3D. It is definitely not flat. But the other thing,
02:55:25 ◼ ► the thing that made it very difficult to judge in detail is that I only got to see one video that
02:55:33 ◼ ► was shot with the Vision Pro headset. And it was the same one that they've been showing to us in
02:55:39 ◼ ► the media since June of a bunch of like 20-something young kids, what I call them kids,
02:55:52 ◼ ► Yeah. The flat version is public somewhere. And that does look more 3D, but they didn't have any
02:55:59 ◼ ► other clips with it for me to see other than that one again. And it makes sense that it's...
02:56:11 ◼ ► And it makes sense that it would be more effective 3D because the cameras on the Vision headset are
02:56:18 ◼ ► exactly eye-width apart, which is the most natural distance for the lenses to be apart to fake your
02:56:24 ◼ ► brain into thinking you're seeing 3D. And the two cameras on the iPhone, obviously, even the most
02:56:30 ◼ ► beady-eyed mofo out there doesn't have eyes that close to each other. But it's worth it enough for
02:56:37 ◼ ► me that I did shoot more video at Christmas. It's like, yeah, I'm glad I shot that Thanksgiving video
02:56:43 ◼ ► Spatial, even though it's only 1080, 30 frames per second. It's worth it. And I do think,
02:56:54 ◼ ► COREY I can also imagine that today's technology for spatial video... What is the thing that Disney
02:57:00 ◼ ► came up with where it's layers of different pieces of animation and they kind of move? You know what
02:57:05 ◼ ► I'm thinking of? They move like parallax? It wouldn't surprise me if today's technology
02:57:09 ◼ ► of spatial video is sort of like that, where you do have some amount of depth, but it's not
02:57:13 ◼ ► like a full z-axis, if you will. It's more there's a couple of stages or a couple of steps where you
02:57:19 ◼ ► can tell that there's depth. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the way it is.
02:57:23 ◼ ► And maybe in the future, it would be more like a true infinite z-axis where it's clearer
02:57:28 ◼ ► what is close and what isn't. But I mean, I don't know. We'll see how it lands when it comes out in
02:57:36 ◼ ► it's true for me. I mean, my son is older than your kids are, but it's being a parent that really
02:57:43 ◼ ► makes you think about the technology of cameras. And so I remember thinking when Jonas was a
02:57:49 ◼ ► toddler, he was born in 2004, so like 2005, 2006. I remember there was a period, maybe it was around
02:57:56 ◼ ► three or four when the flip cameras were the rage. And I had one. And there's like a two-year stretch
02:58:02 ◼ ► where we've got way more video of Jonas than any other years, because it was the years where I had
02:58:08 ◼ ► the flip with me all the time. And every time we'd go to the playground, I'd have it with me.
02:58:12 ◼ ► And then the iPhone came out and I stopped carrying a flip camera, even though the iPhone
02:58:17 ◼ ► didn't have a video feature at all. So there's like this burst of video and it's 640 by 480,
02:58:33 ◼ ► JOE Yeah. Or maybe it was 720. I don't know. And they were so cheap at the time. It was a very fun
02:58:38 ◼ ► little fad. And in hindsight, we look at them now and they look so crude. I mean, low light is
02:58:46 ◼ ► garbage. The resolution is garbage. The optical quality isn't that great. And they do. They bring
02:58:51 ◼ ► tears to me and Amy's eyes. And even Jonas enjoys them. And I'm so glad I have them. But it is such
02:58:57 ◼ ► crude video. It's always going to, for the entire digital era, it has been so true that every four
02:59:06 ◼ ► or five years you look back and you're like, I can't believe that's what we lived with then.
02:59:10 ◼ ► And I'm sure it'll be the case with spatial video, right? Where the spatial video people like us are
02:59:15 ◼ ► shooting now with iPhone 15 Pro, we'll be so glad to have it 10 years from now. But at that point,
02:59:28 ◼ ► JOE Right. And looks like it has a refresh rate that's faster than your eye can track, right?
02:59:35 ◼ ► In a way that a retina screen, you can't see pixels. There's a certain frame rate you can
02:59:40 ◼ ► reach where it's indistinguishable from real life. And we'll be shooting video like that. And
02:59:45 ◼ ► we'll still be so glad we have it, but it'll look so crude. But it's a great feature. I'm so glad
02:59:52 ◼ ► Apple added it. And I'm happy to start shooting it. But it kind of breaks my heart. More than
02:59:58 ◼ ► any other thing, going to 1080, going to better low light, going to 4K, all of those things have
03:00:06 ◼ ► made me think, boy, I wish I had a camera that could do this when Jonas was little. Boy, I can
03:00:15 ◼ ► JOE I totally hear that. Very briefly, when you were there, you said you made mention of looking
03:00:20 ◼ ► at panoramas. How was that? Because I can imagine a panorama when looked at on a phone screen is
03:00:25 ◼ ► very high fidelity. But if you're looking at it on an effective 20-foot tall screen that's going
03:00:35 ◼ ► PAUL I don't think, well, you know I've got… JOE Well, you both have garbage eyes for different
03:00:41 ◼ ► reasons. PAUL Yeah, but when I take an eye test, I can, with corrective lenses, I still get a 20/20.
03:00:48 ◼ ► So my eyes aren't that bad. But I hesitate to criticize the detail that much. But I don't mind
03:00:55 ◼ ► a little graininess. I mean, for example, 1080 video when you're in Vision Pro definitely looks
03:01:02 ◼ ► grainy because 1080 isn't nearly enough resolution for how big videos look. And spatial video in
03:01:09 ◼ ► particular is bigger in your field of view in the headset. But I find the graininess to be
03:01:15 ◼ ► film-like in nature. I think Apple's doing something, and I asked if they are, and then
03:01:19 ◼ ► I got like a sort of a smirk as an answer, like, you know, no comment. But I do think they're
03:01:26 ◼ ► making the upscaling. They're doing… it's not just dumb upscaling. They're trying to make it
03:01:31 ◼ ► look good. But to me it's like film grain, like looking at The Godfather or some movie from the
03:01:36 ◼ ► '70s where the movies look different from the '70s and '80s, but the ones that are beautiful then,
03:01:42 ◼ ► I find the grain to be beautiful. And I get it why modern movies don't go for that look,
03:01:47 ◼ ► although I think this movie, The Holdovers, that's a Paul Giamatti movie that's new. But it takes
03:01:53 ◼ ► place in the '80s, and apparently they've tried to make it look like it was shot in the '80s in
03:01:57 ◼ ► ways. I don't know. I thought panoramic photos, I thought they were fantastic in the headset.
03:02:02 ◼ ► It's astonishing to me that this feature that was created with iPhones long before the Vision Pro
03:02:11 ◼ ► was even in their mind and certainly didn't know it. And when they… and they've… Jaws told me,
03:02:16 ◼ ► I think, I forget if it was on stage or maybe off behind the scenes, but I don't think I'm betraying
03:02:21 ◼ ► any off-the-record type thing. They… when they had the idea during the development of Vision Pro,
03:02:28 ◼ ► and they knew they wanted to do the 3D video thing, and then somebody had the idea, "Well,
03:02:33 ◼ ► what about panoramic photos? Can we do something with those?" And they're like, "Huh, maybe."
03:02:37 ◼ ► And it was somebody just had this spitball idea, and they thought, "Well, let's see." And then
03:02:43 ◼ ► they did it, and they were like, "Wow, this is amazing." And for me it is. The weird thing about
03:02:49 ◼ ► it is it's been a feature in the iPhone since… I just was talking about it with somebody. I think
03:02:54 ◼ ► the iPhone 5 or 5S. In fact, I know it was one of the two. It was either 5 or 5S introduced
03:03:00 ◼ ► panoramic photos. And… or maybe I'm wrong, and it was a 4S. All right, 4S, 5, or 5S, but roughly
03:03:07 ◼ ► 10 years ago. I found them so… when am I ever going to look at these that I've shot a ridiculously
03:03:14 ◼ ► few number of them in the decades since? Almost none, because they look terrible. I don't under…
03:03:20 ◼ ► I was like, "It's a neat gimmick, but they look so weird and squished and unrealistic."
03:03:27 ◼ ► And yet when I had this demo and I fished out a handful, most of them I shot when the feature was
03:03:34 ◼ ► new. It was like with the first iPhone that did it. They're super compelling in the headset.
03:03:40 ◼ ► And it's really, really good. I mean, do they look like they're lower resolution than the size? Yes,
03:03:50 ◼ ► Off-putting, right. It doesn't look like you're really there. You can tell it's not real,
03:03:55 ◼ ► but it is very compelling and engaging. And I don't know, until very recently, this is the sort
03:04:02 ◼ ► of experience you'd expect at a Disney theme park that you paid $200 to get a ticket and waited in
03:04:08 ◼ ► line for 45 minutes to get into the ride to see something like this. As a basic rule of thumb,
03:04:15 ◼ ► if you're shooting people shoot spatial video and if you're trying to remember a place,
03:04:21 ◼ ► shoot panoramic photos. I anticipate shooting panoramic photos a hundred times more often now
03:04:28 ◼ ► than I did before, knowing that there's this remarkable way to view them. It really is super
03:04:33 ◼ ► compelling. That's awesome. No, I'm glad to hear it, because I was a little worried that it would be
03:04:38 ◼ ► off-puttingly grainy when blown up. No, it's not too off-puttingly grainy. And the stitching
03:04:43 ◼ ► together or the decompressing of it into an actual panorama, it's just remarkable. It's just
03:04:48 ◼ ► absolutely astonishing. It's really, really engaging. It just, it really, it seems like
03:04:54 ◼ ► you're in like a multi $20 million Disney attraction. In some ways, because they're bigger
03:05:00 ◼ ► and further from you than the spatial video. In some ways, it's more wow than the spatial video.
03:05:07 ◼ ► The spatial video is like intimate and it's like very personal. And the panoramic photos are like,
03:05:20 ◼ ► What else? Was there one more thing that we had for the year? There was the spatial video,
03:05:24 ◼ ► oh, journal, the journal app. That's the last news from Apple of the year. Are you using the
03:05:29 ◼ ► journal app? Syracuse is not. No. So I am not using it, but I am on the beta for day one. And
03:05:37 ◼ ► I don't know if I'm supposed to be discussing this, but here we are. In the beta there,
03:05:51 ◼ ► Yeah. Well, because as far as I can tell, and I think you and John might've gotten this wrong,
03:05:56 ◼ ► you and Syracuse might've gotten this wrong. I might be the one that's wrong. I'm not sure.
03:06:08 ◼ ► general activities that you would have for like handoff and things like that. I think the
03:06:12 ◼ ► journaling app picks up, but I don't think there's any explicit way to say to the journaling or
03:06:16 ◼ ► journal app, here's something you should consider for the user later on. But what you can do,
03:06:22 ◼ ► and now I can't find it in day one, but I swear it was in the beta for at least a minute,
03:06:26 ◼ ► is you can call up a list of things that the journal app has pulled together as ways to start
03:06:35 ◼ ► an entry in day one. Does that make sense? So you're looking at, you're looking at, here's all
03:06:44 ◼ ► to put in day one. And I haven't used it, but a couple of times, and honestly, a lot of the
03:06:49 ◼ ► things that came up with so far, I'm not that interested in, oh, I just did a walk around the
03:06:52 ◼ ► neighborhood. Do you want to add that to day one? Like for me, no. But I like the principle of where
03:06:57 ◼ ► this is going. I think it would be better if it was both directions, if I, as an app developer,
03:07:02 ◼ ► could say, oh, this person just looked up The Dark Knight 15 times over a two-hour span. Perhaps they
03:07:07 ◼ ► just watched The Dark Knight and then that into the journal system. But either way, I hope that
03:07:14 ◼ ► this is a 1.0, both from the app perspective, because I think you and Sirkisa covered that
03:07:18 ◼ ► well. The app is all right. But more importantly, I think, I hope the API is a 1.0 and that we see
03:07:24 ◼ ► more of this over time. Yeah, I think it's more than all right. I think it's, I think it's really
03:07:29 ◼ ► interesting to do it as a social media timeline that's just for yourself. But I also think that
03:07:35 ◼ ► simplicity makes it one of the most gracious Sherlockings in Apple history, where like a
03:07:44 ◼ ► full-featured 15-year and counting or however long, I mean, day one is, might have been around
03:07:51 ◼ ► since like day one of the app store. It's a very long-standing app. I mean, I know you're a
03:07:55 ◼ ► dedicated user. I mean, how long, you've probably got like over a decade in there, right?
03:08:00 ◼ ► Well, I think actually, coincidentally, I'm pretty sure I landed on day one because of the trip that
03:08:05 ◼ ► we went on with the armaments to Germany. And I wanted to be able to log what we were doing,
03:08:10 ◼ ► where we were going, but I wasn't interested in blasting that out to the internet. And I think
03:08:13 ◼ ► that's how I landed on day one originally, and that was 2013. So that was a decade ago to your point.
03:08:18 ◼ ► Yeah. It's just a much richer full-featured app. I don't see, to me, that's like sort of
03:08:25 ◼ ► Sherlocking at its best. And sometimes you can't avoid it, right? It's like, knock on wood,
03:08:30 ◼ ► Overcast seems to be holding its own against Apple Podcasts, but Apple Podcasts has gained features
03:08:37 ◼ ► and it's not trying to kill other apps, but it's podcasting. There's only so many features, right?
03:08:43 ◼ ► I don't think it's surprising that the overall podcast market has shaken out and there's
03:08:48 ◼ ► fewer actively developed podcast players than there used to be. It's just the nature of it.
03:08:54 ◼ ► But Journal, to me, doesn't seem like it's going to kill day one or any of the other popular
03:09:03 ◼ ► journaling apps. If anything, I almost feel like the benefit sometimes to Apple getting into
03:09:07 ◼ ► something like this with a very basic simple app is it introduces more people to the basic idea of,
03:09:14 ◼ ► "Oh, I kind of like entering my thoughts in whatever's every day or every couple days."
03:09:24 ◼ ► award-winning apps in the App Store that are meant for journaling that have X, Y, and Z, and then,
03:09:29 ◼ ► "Oh, I'll try that." So I don't know. Kudos to them. I think it's pretty good. And the other thing,
03:09:40 ◼ ► that instead of having a date-based interface, it's just this timeline of entries, and the entries
03:09:47 ◼ ► can be anything. It's sort of, to me, just like a chronological timeline of things hints to a future
03:09:56 ◼ ► where your iPhone can present to you a log of everything you've done in a private, on-device,
03:10:03 ◼ ► not-creepy-at-all way. But man, I don't know, fast-forward 10, 20 years, do you want to have
03:10:09 ◼ ► devices that can just remember everything you've done and seen? Kind of, right? It sounds creepy
03:10:14 ◼ ► in a way, but I feel like once we have it, everybody will be like, "I can't believe I ever
03:10:18 ◼ ► had to remember who people were." Whereas now I've got this device that, as soon as I see a face,
03:10:29 ◼ ► I have a truly terrible memory, and so part of the reason I'm so invested in day one is because
03:10:34 ◼ ► it helps me remember the kind of minutiae of day-to-day stuff, and I try to put at least
03:10:40 ◼ ► one entry in every single day. And most of these are pretty unremarkable, and they're not that
03:10:48 ◼ ► interesting in and of themselves. But one of my favorite things to do when I do it first thing in
03:10:51 ◼ ► the morning is I pick up my phone and I look at, "Okay, what did I do in today—what is today,
03:10:55 ◼ ► the 28th, 29th? What did I do on the 29th in 2022, 2021, 2020?" And when you've got 10 years-ish of
03:11:03 ◼ ► entries, it's such an incredible and wonderful walk down memory lane. And actually, to kind of
03:11:08 ◼ ► bring this full circle, imagine if I had a whole bunch of spatial video in there going back 10
03:11:12 ◼ ► years, you know, or whatever the case may be. So yeah, that's why I like it so much. And yeah,
03:11:16 ◼ ► even though it would be a little creepy having my phone record everything, if I was convinced that
03:11:33 ◼ ► All right, that brings us to the end of the year, and I guess the end of the show. Boy,
03:11:40 ◼ ► I feel like you and Marco have some very long ones, but I think we're at least in the running now.
03:11:44 ◼ ► Yeah, well, we've all developed our long podcast muscles. I don't have many muscles, but—
03:12:07 ◼ ► I will thank our sponsors, our good friends at Memberful, where you can monetize your passion