The Talk Show

391: ‘Error -37’, With John Siracusa


00:00:00   Here's the most disappointing part of the show. I'm so appreciative of you taking time in the

00:00:05   holiday season to do the show that I was going to get you a gift but the gift I was going to get you

00:00:12   was a new series 9 apple watch. Someone just said today in a slack they went to the apple store and

00:00:19   bought one. I guess you can get them in the brick and mortar retail stores. So that

00:00:29   I do want to talk about it because I think there is some poetic justice here right with the

00:00:35   and it's a perennial topic with you guys on ATP about your unanimous dislike of the US patent

00:00:45   system and long whatever the situation here is between apple and Massimo. I don't know how do

00:00:52   you think it's pronounced Massimo Massimo. Ultimately it comes down to patents right. It's

00:01:00   that Massimo has patents apples filed counter patents they both claim each other's products

00:01:05   are violating each other's patents and the international trade commission I forget what

00:01:11   ITC stands for has this whole injunction against apple selling apple watches in the US is about

00:01:19   a ruling that says yes you're violating Massimo's patent or patents and therefore the apple watch is

00:01:27   off the market and you can't I sympathize with anybody who still wants to buy an apple watch and

00:01:37   isn't going to be able to if this holds through Christmas and I wrote on my website today.

00:01:43   Overall it seems like well it's okay because they got the warning out so people could

00:01:48   people who were going to do a last minute watch gift that wasn't a joke like the one I was going

00:01:53   to buy for you had time to get one you could still go into the retail store and get one

00:01:59   but the after Christmas thing is real right like people who got silver but wanted midnight or

00:02:06   I guess you could even exchange sizes right if you pay the difference or I you know depending on the

00:02:11   size you might get money back if you got gifted a 44 millimeter and you wanted 41 you could do that

00:02:19   none of that's going to be possible and the big one to me is the gift money right and gift

00:02:23   certificates right everybody so anybody who is like just give me a gift certificate and I'll go

00:02:29   to the apple store after Christmas and buy myself an apple watch well you may not yeah plus all the

00:02:36   repairs like all the models that have the blood oxygenation uh sets around them that people

00:02:41   already have if they break them they don't repair apple watches they give you a new one but they

00:02:45   can't give you a new one if they don't have a new one to give you and you're like well it's I've got

00:02:48   apple care and it's under warranty you're supposed to replace it yeah we don't have it yeah and that's

00:02:53   another thing that's sort of coming back to bite apple like the basically unrepairability of apple

00:03:01   watches yeah and I maybe I don't who knows what they do with them but basically as far as I know

00:03:07   if you have any sort of physical problem with an apple watch they just take it in the back and then

00:03:13   come out with a different watch and give it to you and I guess it's supposed to match but I think

00:03:19   if you have an a still under warranty series eight and it breaks in a way that's covered by the

00:03:27   warranty or apple care and you take it in the store they just give you a series nine now I think

00:03:32   yeah yeah that's that but these are doing with max back in the day if you had a really old mac

00:03:36   and it was something was wrong with it and they couldn't repair it or they tried to repair it and

00:03:40   messed it up they'd give you a new one I think that happens to some people in my family a couple

00:03:42   times that's always an exciting surprise you're sad that your computer's broken you're excited

00:03:46   to get a better computer yeah so in some ways for a customer that's great as a ecological thing I

00:03:55   mean I don't know I don't know what they do with those watches I presume if possible they ship them

00:04:00   somewhere and if they can be repaired they do that's what refurb apple watches are is ones that

00:04:07   were taken in the store and they can't fix them in the store they ship them off to someone yeah it's

00:04:14   not can't it's how much would you have to pay someone of what level of skill for how much amount

00:04:19   of time to fix it and then how much money you're going to make selling the refurb you know what I

00:04:22   mean because I don't doubt that someone very skilled could make repairs on these things but

00:04:27   they're so small and so delicate you have to be so careful and it's just it's a skilled job and you

00:04:31   have to pay that person for the 15-20 minutes one hour two hours they spend and maybe you've just

00:04:37   burned all your profitability on that so I think giving it to the recycling robot that yanks all

00:04:40   the metals and everything might be better I guess I don't know and I also think it's a function of

00:04:46   how they're put together I and I know that over the years there have been iFixit I guess is the

00:04:53   premier gadfly publicly badgering apple over the repairability of iPhones but there are the iPhones

00:05:04   are fundamentally held together by screws that you can unscrew and take it apart and there is

00:05:09   glue involved and whenever there's glue it it gets messy I guess a huge issue with repaired iPhones

00:05:16   is to restore them to the same level of water and dust resistance not just oh it looks like

00:05:22   it's repaired but it actually yes you can still dunk it in a pool or whatever and it's safe but

00:05:27   the watch is there's no screws it's all glued together I mean yeah it's the same problem and

00:05:33   everything is smaller on the watch of course every little bit and piece in there is smaller the watch

00:05:37   itself is smaller there's not a lot of margin for error yeah so how do you how what was your guess

00:05:43   as this do you I mean and who knows we're recording this on December 22nd it'll be out

00:05:49   before Christmas so it'll be out but the show will be out before the deadline who knows by the time

00:05:54   the show's out there might be some resolution to this it feels like something that could be resolved

00:05:58   at any second right like it I mean it could have been resolved at any point in the past it's just

00:06:03   there was not a meeting of the minds in terms of how much money is going to exchange hands here and

00:06:08   they're playing a game of chicken and I feel like apple has sort of lost this round but it it's I've

00:06:15   always said I want to talk about atp I can't imagine that apple is going to allow themselves

00:06:20   not to be able to sell this watch for a long period of time so at a certain point in the semi

00:06:25   near future apple will make something happen that makes this go away yeah the other thing too is

00:06:33   german has reported and this seems like an obvious solution it's whether it would actually comply

00:06:41   legally I don't know but the idea of a software update that would disable the blood oximeter

00:06:49   sensors I guess only in the us I mean it wouldn't make sense I mean as usual masimo doesn't think

00:06:56   it's possible to do that apple thinks we can make a software update and we won't violate your

00:06:59   patents and masimo's no you'll totally still violate them and how will they settle that

00:07:03   disagreement courts lawyers blah it's just it could go on for a while especially if they

00:07:09   continue to have a disagreement about remedies and the only way to settle those is with further

00:07:13   court cases so I'm not quite sure how a software update would take time though because it's well

00:07:19   they have to figure out a way to do it do we have a way to change the software such that our lawyers

00:07:24   here at apple think that we technically are not violating the patent anymore well but you know

00:07:29   that all of the sensors or at least all the new ones as they get added are gated by country

00:07:36   because whenever they say hey this year's new apple watch has this new sensor like three years

00:07:41   ago when it was the blood oxygen readings it'll and then there's then you get to the part of the

00:07:46   keynote where it's like available in the us and canada and more countries to come later because

00:07:51   there's surely a nightmare of country by country bureaucracy to get these things legally allowed

00:07:59   even if they're not deemed medical class devices or whatever all of those sensors always seem to

00:08:04   roll out country by country I would think I guess it's not as simple as just saying take the us off

00:08:11   the list and now if you're in the us you don't get blood oxygen readings oh no I was well the software

00:08:17   update I'm thinking that I think apple wants to do is we still take blood oxygen readings we just

00:08:22   do it in a way that isn't exactly like that it says in the past that's the whole point that

00:08:27   masamo says no you have to make hardware changes like it's just it's part of the stupidity of

00:08:32   patents right they didn't patent the idea of a watch that gets your blood oxygen level they

00:08:37   patented some specific aspects of it and if they can accomplish that if apple can find a way to

00:08:42   accomplish that task to give you a reading but doing it differently enough that it doesn't

00:08:46   violate their patent then they're in the clear but masamo's like actually there's no way you can

00:08:50   do that with you can't just make a software app to do that we think you have to actually make

00:08:54   hardware changes but you're never going to do so please pay us some money and we'll figure it out

00:08:59   right because and I don't and I don't really feel like wading into the details and I can't I have

00:09:04   you ever I mean I'm sure you have because I know you're a critic of them but patent filings are

00:09:08   like the most obtuse purposely so I don't I'm not sure I've ever read a patent filing that was

00:09:14   cogent to a lay person maybe amazon's one click patent or maybe I'm just misremembering that there

00:09:22   was always sort of a lay person's explanation with it and the actual patent filing is just as obtuse

00:09:29   as everybody else it's got to be like this is a perfect job for chat gpt you feed in patentees

00:09:34   and it translates it to english and some embodiments the blah blah blah and it's just

00:09:37   find these phrases and translate them to the lay person's understanding and then at least you can

00:09:42   read it without your eyes glazing over yeah overall I am surprised that apple did not resolve this

00:09:48   beforehand it must be a mountain of money that masamo is asking for part of it is we've all noted

00:09:56   the fairly favorable to apple timing of all this where it's like the sales shut off just as

00:10:01   christmas arrives so you still get your haul your holiday sales and maybe they were just like look

00:10:05   let's play this game of chicken let's run it out if we have to pull them we'll pull them and then

00:10:09   in january we'll come back to the table and dump a dump truck of money onto masamo and make this go

00:10:14   yeah apple rolled this out in an unusual way too seemingly only with once with a a statement given

00:10:23   only to one outlet chance miller at nine to five mac which you know kudos to chance who i just met

00:10:32   uh i think the iphone event for the video i mean so first of all the content of it was just a

00:10:37   let's play the refs right it was a playing the refs letter right and the fact that it was sent to

00:10:42   by media standards an obscure outlet we don't it's not obscure to us but in the rest of the world

00:10:47   they have no idea what it is is a way of playing the refs while also not you don't give it to new

00:10:52   york times or wall street journal right and so it's just kind of like one of their essentially

00:10:57   their last move that they have hey biden maybe give us a break here but only released to nine

00:11:02   to five mac and so we'll all talk about it in the apple technosphere and new york times wall street

00:11:06   journal are all they're all on vacation right all right well and i guess the calculus is not just

00:11:12   it's it's some kind of mix of wanting to get word out so that last minute shoppers stop waiting right

00:11:19   and if you wanted to order online you had a couple days to do it before they cut you off now you know

00:11:24   you can do this uh one of the odd things and again lawyers right who knows but german reported that

00:11:31   apple store retail and store employees have been told that they can't tell customers that they can

00:11:38   go buy them at target and best buy and everywhere else that'll still have them in well if you're in

00:11:43   charge of apple stores especially if you're not an apple person but you're just a retail like i'm i

00:11:49   run retail stores of course you're going to tell your employees that yeah i wonder if that's the

00:11:54   lawyers or the people who run the stores and they're like no we i don't care it's not actually

00:11:59   like we're legally bound not yeah you don't tell the same reason they don't i mean we talked about

00:12:05   this in atp recently that the price match thing that apple stores do that they will essentially

00:12:09   match the price of any other authorized app dealer but they don't advertise that because that would

00:12:13   be admitting there are other places you can buy apple products or every single time you buy

00:12:16   anything major at an apple store if they told you hey just go over there look there's a macbook air

00:12:22   that's available see if you can hunt for a discount on this device that you're buying

00:12:26   and then come back here we'll give you the money and then we'll come back here no they don't they

00:12:31   don't encourage that yeah i don't know it's such a weird story and it's just i i have the most

00:12:38   sympathy for anybody who's going to get caught up at this after christmas who wants to exchange or

00:12:44   use a gift card or something like that i wonder how many people who otherwise were going to get

00:12:50   a series 9 watch are now going to get stuck with a se which isn't the worst it's a fine apple watch

00:12:57   but it's obviously the worst one i don't know it what a fun time to be a top level executive at

00:13:05   apple during the christmas week ruin your holidays i mean i do wonder how much of this is they have

00:13:10   they had a plan that was sketched out by the beginning of this and said here's the steps

00:13:13   we're going to go through and they're just running the plan right and part of the plan is we make our

00:13:18   last ditch uh plea to biden if it doesn't work we go on vacation we come back we finally settle this

00:13:24   again who knows biden could settle it i don't think that's going to happen

00:13:27   apple could tim cook could obviously like you always say there's just keep adding zeros to the

00:13:32   check and eventually masamo is going to be okay i don't know if there might be a number that is

00:13:37   so high that even just at a bean counting level they're like this isn't actually worth it this is

00:13:42   a major product of ours yeah we'll just pull the feature right apple always has that option of say

00:13:47   you know what we we tried to roll out this feature in our apple watches but the the people who

00:13:52   apparently control the only way to do this in the same manner will not accept a reasonable amount

00:13:56   of money so now apple watches cannot tell you your blood oxygenation anymore which is crappy

00:14:01   but it's who's more stubborn right who is more who feels more righteous and who can afford to be more

00:14:06   righteous and stubborn is masamo a public company that's another question yeah i don't know does it

00:14:10   matter anyway if they're a public company they will have similar pressures to apple and okay

00:14:15   well you can feel aggrieved and ask for a really big number but a certain point take the number

00:14:19   apple is offering you yeah so we shall see all right i'm going to take a break here while we have

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00:17:13   not to ruin your segue but before i moved on from the uh patent thing i think i've never really heard

00:17:18   your opinion on patents what do you think about patents as a concept i guess i've lived my whole

00:17:24   life so i i've never worked at a big company and so it's never really entered into it i think the

00:17:31   idea when the country was founded in the 18th century was probably pretty good and when you

00:17:40   read like the history of patents and the way they used to work i think it was a pretty good idea

00:17:46   and 250 years later i think it's a mess i i think that they only benefit the biggest companies well

00:17:57   setting aside how it's implemented like the patent system the the concept that if you come up with an

00:18:01   idea there should be some period of times that you legally have the exclusive rights to that idea i

00:18:07   think that's okay but i think that computers in i i think in general going back to the late 1700s

00:18:14   or the 19th century when things were mechanical devices if it was clever then i think a period

00:18:20   of exclusivity i i'm not offended by that it's hard because i i fundamentally believe in the

00:18:26   basic idea i think it was derek sivers i'll put a link to it many people have espoused the same idea

00:18:31   but that ideas are only a multiplier on execution right it's the idea is worth nothing by itself

00:18:40   a good idea multiplied by zero execution anything times zero is still zero right but if you came up

00:18:45   with the idea suddenly now you have the ability to stop anyone else from doing it unless they pay you

00:18:50   so kind of it all of a sudden the idea now has value because the government says it has value

00:18:55   so you don't even need to execute the idea yourself at all you just need to have the idea and then

00:19:00   find somebody else who's executing that idea and make them pay you because you have the exclusive

00:19:04   rights to that idea because you filed a patent before they did yeah i think on the whole it's

00:19:09   been a net negative because it's supposed to promote innovation and i think it only hinders it

00:19:14   and i think that's it sounds like a great system but in practice it is it's hard to defend it i i

00:19:21   think it's a disaster but it's also hard to see a way out of it yeah i mean we used to back in the

00:19:25   day when we used to talk about this there was a big deal i guess in the 90s on the internet where

00:19:29   people were real angry about software patents right because we were talking about how can you

00:19:33   patent software and what is software or whatever but that conversation was so focused on software

00:19:38   and the patent system and this new thing and never really no one ever wanted to revisit the idea yeah

00:19:43   but what about patents in general right right because we have this idea in our head of you're

00:19:47   going to invent the cotton gin right and you're going you're a genius inventor it's like it's part

00:19:50   of our ethos the american dream of come up with an idea you build a better mousetrap you patent it

00:19:55   and that's how you become rich and it seems just and fair because you came up with a good idea

00:20:00   therefore you should be rich and but that idealized version of patents people seem to be on

00:20:06   board with mostly because they haven't really thought about the consequences of it setting aside

00:20:09   does that ever happen in real life because of the patent system i mean as i've said many times and

00:20:13   i'm on the extreme end of this which is i don't think anything should be patentable ever for any

00:20:17   reason and that there is no way that this should work and i don't think you should for all the

00:20:21   reasons you just said like the idea is worth nothing it should not be there should not be a law

00:20:25   that something makes the idea more valuable than it actually is what you get out of having an idea

00:20:29   before somebody else is you get to make your product before somebody else you get to bring

00:20:32   it to market before somebody else you do get advantages but you don't get a 20-year monopoly

00:20:36   on that idea and that's before you start considering okay but what about the really bad

00:20:41   patents what about software patents i'm talking about baseline level patents but you know yeah

00:20:45   that's the type of thing that is so against the the popular notion of patents that it will probably

00:20:51   never get any traction right and the entrenched incumbents have so much at stake that it's hard

00:20:59   to see any sort of let's abolish the patent system getting any traction at all i don't i mean i don't

00:21:06   think that's what would stop it i think the big established companies are so weary of this because

00:21:10   it is essentially a tax on all of their operations right and like they build these patent portfolios

00:21:16   as a defensive mechanism it's mutually assured destruction i have a bunch of patents you have

00:21:19   a bunch of patents let's do patent cross licensing don't you sue me because i'll sue you because i

00:21:23   have patents on the most ridiculous things you can imagine but in the end i think if you get them all

00:21:28   the biggest companies in the in the world together and said what do you think abolish patents there'd

00:21:32   be one or two annoying people who say no but a lot of them would be like boy that would just make all

00:21:36   of our lives so much easier i mean maybe i'm being naive in that way but it just seems like everybody

00:21:40   is weary of it maybe i mean it it's but we can't even get rid of the penny john i know i'm saying

00:21:48   like yes america so yeah i'll send you some links for the show notes for this in case people want to

00:21:52   dig into this further my past couple of podcasts about this or my remember i did a couple hyper

00:21:58   three hypercritical podcasts about patents i do i do it was way back in the day and that that was

00:22:03   linking to a document by uh david k levine and michelle boldren it was called against intellectual

00:22:09   monopoly that tries to make the case that i've just alluded to which is that you should have

00:22:13   government mandated 20-year exclusive rights to an idea what do you think i guess one of the areas

00:22:20   where these things often come up is pharmaceuticals right and the idea is that merc or name your

00:22:28   favorite merc's local here in philly or at least part of the conglomerates local here but big giant

00:22:34   pharmaceuticals spends billions of dollars to create test authorize a new drug and then they

00:22:43   hold a patent for it for 20 years and until then they're the only ones who can make this drug on

00:22:50   the one hand i can see the argument in favor of the patent system there that they need to recoup

00:22:57   these enormous costs and there's no no other way to bring a major drug to market than to spend this

00:23:05   money and if there were no patent protection for the drug then there'd be no reason to spend the

00:23:11   billions of dollars to create the drugs you know that i i there's seemingly some truth to that

00:23:17   right but then on the other hand you're talking about things that save people's lives right and

00:23:24   what you're getting at is obvious people do worry about that because they can't see past the system

00:23:27   that we have but what you're getting at is well but should health care be a thing that is a profit

00:23:32   center and are there any negative consequences to health care being a for-profit industry and that's

00:23:37   even setting aside okay but how does it really work how it really works is these pharmaceutical

00:23:41   companies get billions of dollars for the u.s government to develop a like let's say a covid

00:23:45   vaccine and they develop it and then they get to sell it and make all the money and they jack up

00:23:50   the price to insane levels and that just brings you right back around to the idea of should health

00:23:54   care be a profit center i mean this against intellectual monopoly does talk about these

00:23:58   things and as i talked about in the past i fully believe that it is entirely possible for human

00:24:02   beings to come up with medicines without the patent system but it can't just be everything

00:24:07   exactly the same as it is now but then remove patents because obviously that wouldn't work

00:24:11   right but i am also against the idea of of health care being a for-profit enterprise because we see

00:24:17   how that works in this country we see how you know when someone has a monopoly on something how they

00:24:22   price gouge and how they don't care that they got billions of dollars for the government so they

00:24:25   don't act out of the goodness of their heart to distribute a few small people do like the person

00:24:29   who like gave away the patents for insulin and stuff like that but fast forward 2050 years and

00:24:34   a less scrupulous people come in and it's just bad for everybody i think the motivation to find life

00:24:39   saving drugs is that we're all human beings and we want them to exist and we should form a society

00:24:44   and government that allows that to happen in a way that doesn't just enrich a small number of people

00:24:48   but you know we are far from that as well right and the whole to me that the pharmaceutical

00:24:54   industry's sort of argument in favor of the patent system the hey should this be a profitable a

00:25:02   business that's for profit is above that right it's a higher level than that and there's no

00:25:07   better there's no better example than insulin which is no longer covered by patents or maybe

00:25:11   never was i don't know if that actually the person gave it away like the person came up with it said

00:25:15   i'm giving this patent away for everybody because it's you know i don't want i don't want this to be

00:25:19   a thing that somebody makes money from well then it's a perfect example because we're still fighting

00:25:23   over grossly inflated prices for insulin today right i mean that's what because when someone

00:25:29   needs something to live it turns out you can charge them as much money as they have for it

00:25:32   and if they're not giving you the money you can get the money from the insurance companies and

00:25:36   then you make sure the government can't negotiate drug prices for those insurance companies either

00:25:39   and it's just it's not a great system i don't know if you know that no it is it's heartbreaking

00:25:44   it is absolutely heartbreaking that there that there's a really serious disease diabetes that

00:25:50   has a medicine that really works well and lets people people need to live yeah and they can live

00:25:57   really normal great lives with it and that and it's incredibly inexpensive to manufacture

00:26:03   incredibly inexpensive right and yet somehow there are families who are have to worry are we

00:26:08   going to pay for the food we want or pay for yeah because because the industry is tuned to extract

00:26:14   as much money as it can to keep you alive but how much money do you have in your bank account just

00:26:20   give us all that can you eat a little less food this month can you move to a smaller apartment

00:26:24   because we know you need this to live sorry kids no more netflix yeah people want apple watch

00:26:31   series 9 so people need insulin to live yeah it is very different so i overall i'm not as adamant

00:26:38   as far out on it as you but i also don't think i've given it as much thought as you and yeah

00:26:43   that's the problem with these things people accept the status quo is that's just the way it's always

00:26:46   been and it seems reasonable and i've seen a couple tv movies about it and and you know

00:26:50   the more you learn about anything like this uh the more complicated it seems but you know if you

00:26:54   take small steps in the right direction uh it's the best we can do yeah you brought it up on either

00:27:00   the most recent atp or the second most recent because it was also in the context of this

00:27:04   masa mo apple watch fiasco and ben and i brought it up on dithering but like you brought up like

00:27:12   the sort of eli whitney who invented the cotton gin yeah yeah or edison or any of these prototypical

00:27:20   storybook inventors who like with the view of hindsight we know that even the stories that we

00:27:26   hear about them are obviously not going to be completely accurate right but the edison of our

00:27:31   times steve jobs obviously was very pro patent and it was part of his nature i mean he wore it

00:27:39   on his shirt sleeve that when his companies had a breakthrough and he knew it was a breakthrough like

00:27:49   he just knew it it's like darth vader looking at the screen when they were showing the base on hoth

00:27:53   that's it you know that i know it that's it don't give me any shit take the whole fleet of star

00:27:58   destroyers there that's where they are when they had the iphone he knew it he knew they had magic

00:28:05   in a bottle and he like literally said in the keynote and something to the effect of boy we

00:28:10   patented boy did we patented and the audience laughed because they were you know everybody's

00:28:15   it was like going into conniptions because of this thing that we couldn't believe was possible

00:28:20   was being unveiled to us and i think his whole career was sort of based on that and that whole

00:28:26   it's almost sad to think of how many how much time of the last few years of his life he spent

00:28:32   burned up over google stealing what he thought were patentable ideas from the iphone you know

00:28:40   it's very very very kind of like childlike notion of things like that yes you go to xerox park learn

00:28:46   about the gooey come back to apple make a gooey and think now this is my idea and anyone else who

00:28:49   makes a gooey they're stealing from us and it's like well what about you what you did xerox but

00:28:53   there's who was bad and ours is good and they're copying the good one and they invited us in right

00:28:59   anything like that like where did multi-touch come from yes he was not shy about saying when we make

00:29:04   something it's almost here's the thing i think in his mind it's rude for people to try to make

00:29:09   another phone that works like the iphone it's just not quite it's rude like no you shouldn't do that

00:29:13   and once you do that you're downgraded his book is bad manners right and it's just a very naive

00:29:18   view of the world but he just really like this we deserve this he was he would be very gung-ho and

00:29:23   he loves the patents and was like we came up with this idea it's ours no one can copy it and

00:29:27   the sad fact is they totally can copy it and they can find a way to copy it without technically

00:29:31   violating your patents and if you try to fight them out it'll just burn up time and money it's

00:29:34   a waste of everyone's time like the look and feel lawsuit that no one remembers anymore it's just

00:29:38   it's a it's a tar pit for everybody involved but his sense of justice is once i've done something

00:29:43   and i do the good one no one should have the nerve to copy us and that's not way the market works nor

00:29:49   should it be it is some sort of innate sense of justice that i think is at least in in jobs was

00:29:56   misguided yeah it's like a toddler's innate sense of justice little kids have the same sense of

00:30:00   justice that is just they think that things should be the way they are and it's not really a real

00:30:04   sense of justice yeah but i wonder how many people you know i don't think it's most people people who

00:30:09   work at apple i know many people who work at apple and i guess it's the nature of your and my

00:30:14   both our personalities and our work what we're known for what's gotten us introduced to people

00:30:21   at apple i don't know anybody at apple who would brag about patents and i know people who have

00:30:26   either are still at apple or were at apple who have their name on patents but they're never they

00:30:32   never like brag about it but then i'm sure they exist there are some people i mean well and the

00:30:36   thing is it's not like you should be ashamed of having a patent you should be proud for the work

00:30:41   that is represented by that patent because you did a thing and figured out a thing that's an

00:30:45   accomplishment and having a patent as much as i think they shouldn't exist if it's a reasonable

00:30:50   good patent and not something really stupid it is like an artifact of the work that you did and so

00:30:56   i can imagine being proud of that but i think the more contact people have with the patent system

00:31:01   the less proud they'll be of that particular artifact they still like we came up with this

00:31:05   clever idea we did this good thing and we think we're smart and we're proud of our work but the

00:31:09   patent i think the more you learn about it you're like and yeah i also have a bunch of patents but

00:31:13   a they belong to apple not you really and b you're just like it's kind of like starting to

00:31:18   be ashamed that you want to test the car didn't change it's the same car it always was but ancillary

00:31:22   factors that you now know make you feel differently about it i think as you learn about the patent

00:31:26   system the pride and the patent specifically reduces even if you are still proud of the work

00:31:31   it embodies yeah well on that is i i send a link in the our chat there i'll put i will put it in

00:31:38   the show notes but it's one of my favorite personal home pages i've ever seen in my life

00:31:42   imron chaudhry yeah famously humble yeah very humble he's the co-founder of humane the makers

00:31:50   of the now available for pre-order coming in march supposedly ai pin imron chaudhry.com and his entire

00:32:00   home page it is very attractive very minimal it's a white page with black low contrast light gray

00:32:06   text on a white background very apple medium gray helvetica very small text on a background and it

00:32:12   just says selected patented works volume one 1995 to 2017 and it is a list of i would estimate i

00:32:21   don't want to sit here and count uh i would guess this is about 500 patents yeah more than that i

00:32:27   would say maybe more than 500 patents and it's just the numbers that's all it is on the page

00:32:32   it's just a grid one two three four five six seven i don't know 15 rows a bunch of rows it's like a

00:32:39   huge spreadsheet but very pretty of just the patent numbers with a link to the google patent for that

00:32:46   patent at least 500 patents that he has his name on and then here's here's the part that makes it

00:32:51   my favorite personal home page it's not just that his home page is just a list of patents

00:32:57   it's the footnote at the bottom randomly selected us patents only so in other words he's got more

00:33:04   he's got more patents and maybe there's other ones in other countries who knows because this is us

00:33:08   patents yeah like for a certain kind of person it becomes a way to keep score you know i mean if you

00:33:13   decide your value is based on how many patents you file because you think each patent is a beautiful

00:33:17   wonderful idea and again we're talking about good patents and bad patents i think all patents are

00:33:21   bad but they're still with it within each one you can characterize it for example is this an idea

00:33:25   that works you can patent things that don't work right right is this is this a patent for something

00:33:31   that is a blindingly obvious and would be invalidated if any company wanted to spend 300

00:33:36   grand to invalidate it because apple for example invalidated a bunch of masumos patents because

00:33:40   there are tons of patents that are just stupid that could be invalidated but to do so costs

00:33:45   money and some companies to be motivated to do that so of all the patents here i wonder what

00:33:50   the ratio is of patents that are reasonable ideas patents that are remotely original patents that

00:33:54   weren't done years before by other people patents that actually work right it really narrows it down

00:33:59   if you have to do it to that filter but to make a home page like this makes you think every one of

00:34:03   these is gold i i highly doubt it all right what else is in the news oh the beeper mini the ongoing

00:34:11   saga of beeper mini which i think finally i can record a podcast and not be worried

00:34:18   that by the time the podcast airs the story will be different i mean i think you're mostly right

00:34:23   that the beeper part of it but i think it's gone to phase two now because now phase two is silly

00:34:28   government hearings that i think isn't going to last but and i well i don't know because you never

00:34:36   know with politicians yeah exactly it's not it's harder to harder to judge that one we could we

00:34:40   kind of know how it was going to work out between beeper and apple because that's a fight that we

00:34:43   understand but the government thing it's hard to even understand why it is exists other than

00:34:49   people want to showboat in front of a committee for a while so they can hopefully help their

00:34:52   reelection chances uh so the news is that beeper mini has they think they're the number one they've

00:35:00   said we're gonna stop playing cat and mouse after this so we'll see what they said in the statement

00:35:05   was paraphrasing we can't play cat and mouse with the biggest company in the world and as i just

00:35:09   said on the atp we just recorded yeah everybody knows that so sody it's presumably they knew it

00:35:15   too but you did it and pretended it was the thing you were gonna do and you're like you know what

00:35:18   we just can't play cat and mouse with a trillion dollar company we know of course you can't i

00:35:24   appreciate their fervor even though they are a real company i i mean and i think that eric

00:35:30   midget kofsky i hope i'm pronouncing his surname right he's the ceo of beeper he's best known or

00:35:37   previously best known as the ceo founder of the pebble smartwatch which was sort of the first

00:35:45   it certainly didn't break through to the mainstream but certainly broke through

00:35:49   to our audience probably everybody listening remembers the pebble smartwatches that you can

00:35:53   get so caught up in the fact that it does work and thinking it does work and it is extraordinarily

00:36:01   clever this kid the 16 year old i guess isn't pseudonymous anymore he goes by jj tech on github

00:36:07   but he was on cbs news i forget his name but i see clearly this 16 year old kid is super talented and

00:36:14   has a bright future ahead of him it's tremendous work to backwards engineer this but what they've

00:36:20   been doing is using let me see if i can paraphrase this right basically to be an i message client you

00:36:31   need an a registration key that's part of the cryptographic exchange and part of that is

00:36:37   verifying that you the client software are running on an actual legit apple device and for the last

00:36:47   week or two they've been using a bunch of max servers that beeper owns and runs for their

00:36:53   cloud-based messaging service and because there's only so many actual max that they can have and

00:37:00   share with hundreds or thousands of beeper users apple's been whack-a-mole them one by one because

00:37:09   it looks suspicious if a hundred different iMessage users all are using this the same

00:37:15   mac right like maybe you and your your spouse and your kids all have accounts on the same the family

00:37:21   iMac and all four or five of you send iMessages from a mac but there's very few families with a

00:37:28   500 different iCloud accounts that's why a lot of the coverage of this unfortunately calling it like

00:37:32   a hack or whatever makes it sound like they somehow broke the security and are like they're

00:37:36   in the system and they're controlling everything when all they're essentially doing is finding

00:37:40   various ways to masquerade as a legit device it's not like they have cracked the protocol and now

00:37:44   can register any device they want and be totally unseen by apple it wasn't that kind of hack it was

00:37:49   simply we've found various ways to masquerade as legit apple devices and those ways are slowly being

00:37:54   shut down for the reason you said because once you get more than one or two people using the same

00:37:58   device it starts to look hinky yeah so they've updated this now where the android client and i've

00:38:05   went through it before we recorded i went through it today and actually ran it the most ludicrous way

00:38:11   they have of still using beeper mini on an android device is to either have your own old iphone iphone

00:38:21   six seven eight or ten or success right but those eras because i guess there's jail breaks that

00:38:28   still work on those phones you need an old iphone iphone 10 or older you need to jailbreak it you

00:38:35   need to install some sort of beep serve damon that runs on the iphone and can therefore you know

00:38:44   because it's some kind of like server damon it obviously needs the that's why it needs the iphone

00:38:48   to be broken and leave the iphone running and connected to wi-fi 24 hours time yeah all the time

00:38:56   in other words you need to run a jailbroken iphone as a server in your home and then you get to go out

00:39:01   of the house with your android phone and your reward is you get to use iMessage yeah so you

00:39:06   could do it that way or if you are a beeper cloud user which is their older desktop thing that has

00:39:14   a bunch of things other than iMessage i think it does whatsapp and signal and other things although

00:39:19   some of those don't require reverse engineering i think they're open i think that you're sort of

00:39:24   allowed to have clients for i'm not sure but if you're there's a wait list for it though because

00:39:29   it has this tremendous overhead of them needing to partition an entire server or virtual server

00:39:36   for each user or something like that so there's this overhead and so they have a wait list

00:39:40   if you're already through the wait list you can run it on you run their other desktop app on your

00:39:47   mac and that will generate a code that you can use on your phone and if it's only your phone and your

00:39:55   mac using the same code that's not enough that's gonna hopefully probably not enough to for apple

00:40:02   to notice i don't know and then the easier way i'm surprised they don't mention it more prominently

00:40:08   they have a command line tool they wrote on github it's just a it looks like it's written in go

00:40:13   you can download it on github and run it from the terminal on your mac that's what i did and it just

00:40:19   generates a code that you can copy and paste into beeper on android and then share this and use it

00:40:25   but they also say with that route which you might think well then why would anybody possibly

00:40:30   run the jailbroken iphone as a server connected to wi-fi and powered 24 hours a day this other way

00:40:37   doesn't let you register a phone number with iMessage so people would have to address you

00:40:43   by your iCloud email address and therefore it also requires you to have an iCloud account

00:40:50   and you will need to regenerate the key and re-enter it every week every month they don't

00:40:58   know it's obviously it as soon as they said that we're not quite sure if you'll have to do it every

00:41:03   week or month i thought well this seems like something apple could turn a dial on and make

00:41:08   it like every day every 10 minutes and needless to say it's also kind of hard to copy and paste

00:41:13   a 16-digit code from mac to android because they don't have continuity it's all forget it i mean at

00:41:20   this point i'm not sure how much apple is going to care anymore because i can't imagine how many

00:41:24   beeper users there are going to be but they still might continue to turn the screws up on it

00:41:33   i that the other aspect you said the legislature so elizabeth warren from your fine state of

00:41:38   massachusetts started it with a tweet and then a bipartisan group of senators what's her name from

00:41:44   minnesota amy clobichar and mike lee from utah strange bedfellows just i don't know i'm writing

00:41:54   about it i don't know if it'll be out tomorrow i have a half-written piece for daring fireball

00:41:59   about other stuff but we're all related to beeper but their letter is hey this is anti-competitive

00:42:07   and apple's being mean and being anti-competitive and bullying a company and this is why we need

00:42:12   to crack down on big tech and to me it just has there's no grounding and it just belies

00:42:18   like a complete ignorance on their part of what i message is yeah i mean it's so hard to tell

00:42:23   politicians are they it's always the question the cynics dilemma are they ignorant or are they

00:42:27   malicious slash devious right because so here's the question right so we talked about we were

00:42:32   talking about this whole issue as it's been going on it's so clear that if the idea for your company

00:42:36   is to use apple service for free without their permission it's probably not a great business plan

00:42:41   there's this black and white that like what they're doing is not the right thing to do probably not

00:42:46   legal not a viable business so on and so forth right but the other angle on it that so far i

00:42:51   haven't seen anyone actually argue is okay but in certain circumstances when one company has

00:42:57   such dominance in a particular area we have decided they are monopoly and in those cases we

00:43:03   might decide that this thing is so big and so important and so dominant that they have to allow

00:43:10   other people to use it an example might be windows operating system for pcs in the 90s is that the

00:43:16   dominant operating system for pcs in fact so dominant that the rules for them should be

00:43:21   different and they should not be able to do certain things that that keep competition off

00:43:26   of pcs yes like that's the textbook case i remember that when they did the thing in the

00:43:30   hearing of like how many people in this room use windows on their pc and they all raise their hands

00:43:33   remember that one it was like yeah if you're going to argue in the 90s that the windows is not the

00:43:37   dominant operating system to a massive degree not like 60 40 right or 70 30 like it was just

00:43:44   they're massively dominant suddenly different rules apply right so in the case of apple like

00:43:50   the beeper thing is okay what they're doing is obviously illegal and wrong or whatever but what

00:43:54   if iMessage is so dominant that it's we that new rules apply and it's like apple you have to let

00:44:02   third parties put their clients on your network because you're so big and so dominant that's what

00:44:08   you have government hearings about but i don't hear anybody trying to make the argument that

00:44:13   iMessage has been is dominant in the way that windows was as pcs the operating system what

00:44:19   planet are you on iMessage is big but it is not 95% worldwide market share for messaging systems

00:44:27   about any planet china alone invalidates that idea even within the us they're not that big

00:44:32   so if you're going to come from this you can't come at it from saying they're being mean to

00:44:35   beeper you have to start from iMessage is a monopoly and it is dangerous for any one company

00:44:41   to have that control therefore apple must allow third parties to interface with its instant message

00:44:48   network that it runs and if they can successfully make that argument legally within our current

00:44:53   monopoly laws then it becomes an entirely different conversation but trying to say they're

00:44:58   being mean to a small company you can't start from that first convince me that apple is legally

00:45:03   obligated to open iMessage to third parties and then we don't have to talk about beeper because

00:45:09   then anybody can make a client for it because now legally they have to let them but that is a

00:45:13   difficult case to win and that case is not going to be won by a bunch of senators who either don't

00:45:18   understand or pretended not to understand this issue grandstanding while they grill apple employees

00:45:23   about stuff yeah you john are way too sensible to be a senator you you have no chance of taking

00:45:30   elizabeth warren's seat because i like elizabeth warren usually so i can't my guess is that she

00:45:35   actually doesn't understand i don't think so either i think the problem i think what you're

00:45:39   describing is based on a fundamental understanding of basically what iMessage is which is a very large

00:45:47   maybe not by apple standards but by your my standards or beeper standards extremely expensive

00:45:54   hard to run proprietary instant messaging service it's not just a protocol it's not just oh we have

00:46:03   a secret or like a file format right people think like when they send a message it goes directly to

00:46:08   other people's phone through magic tubes and there's nothing in between they don't see the

00:46:12   giant fleet of servers doing a billion requests a second all day every day in giant cooled buildings

00:46:17   that apple pays for right i think it's a testimony to how seamless iMessage is right and part of what

00:46:23   beeper backwards engineered is the fact that you don't even need an iCloud account to use it when

00:46:30   you're on an iPhone right that's the one difference between an iPhone and iPads and Macs that are

00:46:36   which are the other devices that can run iMessage i don't think apple watch counts because i don't

00:46:40   think you can do it with apple watch without going through the phone i think your watch well i don't

00:46:45   know i guess the watches do have their own phone numbers as far as like Verizon is concerned but

00:46:49   they they use your phone's number to call them it's right right they don't register as a you

00:46:54   can't address my watch's secret you don't even learn your secret phone i think it's just like

00:46:58   the account number and Verizon's account system or whatever right but it's so seamless to use

00:47:03   iMessage especially when you're using your phone number as your identifier i mean and it's how they

00:47:09   bootstrap this network off SMS in 2011 or whenever it was that it launched which always surprises me

00:47:16   when i look or did surprise me when i look back on it i thought iMessage came sooner i didn't

00:47:21   know because the messages app was part of the iPhone yeah one but it was an SMS app right and

00:47:27   it's just hey the messages app will now every time it goes to send an SMS or use it not an SMS

00:47:36   message to 212-123-5555 or whatever your phone number is right before it sends it as SMS it'll

00:47:45   check with a server say is this phone number registered for iMessage oh it is oh okay i'll

00:47:51   render the phone number in blue and i will send it over this other network that apple made not SMS

00:47:58   and you getting your number registered on the iPhone as an iMessage user it just happens

00:48:05   automatically so you have no password to remember there is no password you don't sign in you just

00:48:09   have an iPhone with a phone number which comes from your cellular carrier and you just get

00:48:16   iMessage and it will send iMessages to any other phone number that is also registered with iMessage

00:48:23   and beeper backwards engineered that it's so seamless though it's so invisible that i really

00:48:29   do think most people including Elizabeth Warren including Amy Klobuchar and Mike Lee that they

00:48:36   just see it as like you said it just this magic phone-to-phone thing so that when i text you

00:48:42   it just bits go off my phone and they go to your phone and they don't imagine that there's this

00:48:49   whole complicated infrastructure in between oh actually i mean to give them to be a slightly

00:48:54   more charitable the idea is that it is a yet another walled garden that people have it is

00:49:01   and then they should all they should all be able to talk to each other and and it seems unfair that

00:49:05   there is this one network that is just iPhones talking to each other and whenever they talk to

00:49:10   other people it is it is lesser and it's a setting aside obviously you can talk to other people using

00:49:16   other you can get whatsapp on your iPhone i swear you can and i Android people can get it on their

00:49:21   thing and you can talk to them so it's not even much of a wall it's just like choosing which little

00:49:25   playgrounds people are going to be in but the whole idea of technology is i don't care about

00:49:29   the technical deals i'm just a senator i think all phones should be able to talk to each other

00:49:34   and everything should be interoperable based on standards and it seems like there's something

00:49:38   preventing that because it's apple not wanting to play ball and it is it is not much to hang

00:49:43   anything on but my most charitable read is they just kind of wish everyone would all get along

00:49:49   and they don't want to hear about the technical details and i just it doesn't really make sense

00:49:53   to me it's like of all the problems of all technology big technology doing things the

00:49:57   inability of android users and iphone users to communicate to each other with their phones is

00:50:02   not a problem there is competition in this section in fact apple is losing across most of the world

00:50:06   because their message app isn't that great and isn't that popular right and china has one that

00:50:11   is essentially government mandated and they have a lot of people and it does a lot of things right

00:50:15   europe runs on whatsapp right and then all of europe and then sms is out there that everyone

00:50:21   is still using is sort of the lowest common denominator for this type of stuff and that's

00:50:24   being heard at rcs which still isn't even as i message which isn't as good as whatsapp which

00:50:29   doesn't do half the things that wechat does and then japan's online kids this is not an area where

00:50:34   there is the lack of competition is causing innovation to be stifled right it's just but

00:50:39   i think they're getting on that bandwagon it's like can we latch on to this as an opportunity

00:50:43   to grandstand about big tech not interoperating because there are problems of technology not

00:50:48   interoperating for competitive reasons that is worse for consumers but i don't think this is

00:50:52   one of them and that's why i think any hearings they have on this are going to be silly and mostly

00:50:56   ridiculous and hopefully not go anywhere yeah i will just well and it's you so i'm risking along

00:51:04   the side but i would argue against the notion that i message is worse than whatsapp it's better in

00:51:11   different ways right there's different priorities and you i hope you'll agree ben and i have always

00:51:16   just been it ben thinks i message is trash and whatsapp is well so here i'll say with that i

00:51:22   think we can all agree that whatsapp has more features yes right so it's so but that but apple

00:51:26   often does that the competitors have more features but apple's things better and i will say uh and on

00:51:30   the sort of simplicity and ease of use front the thing that hurts i message is the bugs uh we don't

00:51:36   kind of get into a bigger side about software quality but like you mentioned typing in a phone

00:51:39   number and having it turn blue how many times have you sent someone an iMessage and for whatever

00:51:46   reason it comes out as a green bubble i've been talking to this person at their apple id for six

00:51:50   months and you're sending them a green bubble how the hell does that happen i don't know either but

00:51:55   it that happens to me less and less but it has happened yeah and that's the thing where if you're

00:51:59   going to make a product that's simple and easy to use it should work 100 of the time and bs like that

00:52:03   and never setting aside the whole like oh and now you want to try to have a group conversation with

00:52:07   some people on sms and some people iMessage and half the messages don't appear and on your mac

00:52:10   the conversation is missing some of the messages that's where i'm going to ding apple it's okay

00:52:14   it's fine not to have as many features as whatsapp because you have different priorities but make the

00:52:18   features you have work i will say like where i think iMessage particularly shines is the the way

00:52:24   that it works on non-phone devices iPads and Macs especially for me the Mac because i care more

00:52:30   about it or the Mac is a first-class iMessage client and it's a catalyst app well but i think

00:52:36   it's a i think it's a better catalyst app i think it's a better mac app than the the the previous

00:52:40   mac yeah i just wish all the messages show up there in a timely manner in the correct order

00:52:44   all the time well and i wish i wish that it would well i have a lot of complaints i mean it does

00:52:51   have a sync button it had the sync button years before the ios version had it that sync button

00:52:55   doesn't always do something but i do feel better when i press it well my favorite part about the

00:53:00   sync button is once you press it it gets disabled oh yeah it didn't used to do that the old in

00:53:05   Sonoma gets disabled in Ventura it wouldn't get disabled you can hit it again it was like that

00:53:09   like the closed door button on the elevator to make you feel good it doesn't tell you what it's

00:53:12   doing no progress bar no progress bar no spinner not even in the indeterminate there is there is

00:53:18   some some very low contrast text at the bottom of the sidebar that says syncing messages from iCloud

00:53:23   all right if you can find that and if you can see it with your old eyes it's there but my problem

00:53:28   with whatsapp and signal which are the two i'm most familiar with i don't use line or some of

00:53:32   the other ones but they're so phone centric that you're always and the way you registered

00:53:38   their other clients is always your phone is your main account for signal or whatsapp and then brutal

00:53:43   i know signal is rolling out usernames and i know both of us probably use signal for the same reason

00:53:48   but i never want to give oh let someone communicate with you on signal that's such i have to give them

00:53:52   my real phone number because i use my real phone number with signal see that's why i use a google

00:53:56   voice number for signal and i have it i should have done that but it's too late it's too late

00:54:01   and it yeah you don't want to give out your phone but they are supposedly rolling out if that if

00:54:04   signal continues to exist now that all this government funding has been pulled from them

00:54:08   i can't wait until they roll out usernames because i will leap on that in a second right and i don't

00:54:13   want to complain about and i know signal takes the sort of privacy part more serious than anybody else

00:54:19   including like iMessage especially in terms of being a target like if you're a political dissident

00:54:27   or a journalist who takes really sensitive anonymous tips from like government employees

00:54:34   or whistleblowers or something and you want the utmost secrecy and privacy of these things that

00:54:42   therefore they they don't really have like online backups of like your message history like so for

00:54:47   the most part and i know they're working on that but for the most part like give it with whatsapp

00:54:51   and signal if you lose your phone you kind of lose your message history and your mac and your ipad are

00:54:56   always these sort of satellites to your phone that you register by shining a qr code from your phone

00:55:03   to this they don't even they don't even try to say oh we're going to keep all these in sync all

00:55:06   the time because doing that would be a security violation because like you're only allowed

00:55:10   it's like you get a message in both places if they're both registered at the time the message

00:55:14   arrives and i understand like that's a totally different focus right the way iMessage is

00:55:20   architected where and again i'm probably like right up there with like an apple employee who

00:55:27   tests a bunch of devices because i keep all these old iphones and i have review unit macbooks and

00:55:33   stuff so at any given time i'm like logged into iMessage on 10 different devices maybe at least

00:55:40   and so every time somebody sends me an iMessage it actually goes to 10 and and each device has

00:55:45   its own key pair and there's a lot of work going on there to make it look as seamless as possible

00:55:52   that my iMessages just show up everywhere all the time right at the same time and the other

00:55:58   platforms don't do that well at all and of course it makes sense that apple the company that sells

00:56:03   things like expensive five thousand dollar macbook pros would make it a more of a priority but it's

00:56:08   neither here nor there here's what i want to run by and i hope you like it because i've actually

00:56:13   spent most of my friday working on it but here's my analogy is that if you are an amex platinum

00:56:21   card holder and they run american express runs centurion lounges at a couple of dozen airports

00:56:29   around the world and so when i go to philadelphia i now go way early this is the best part about the

00:56:35   centurion lounge is it gets me to go to the airport early and so i'm never last minute for

00:56:41   a flight anymore i go early and all i have to do is i go to the centurion lounge show them my

00:56:48   platinum amex show them my boarding pass they make you have the boarding pass because it's

00:56:52   i guess they're worried that people will just go to the airport to get free food i don't know it

00:56:58   seems weird it always seems weird to me that they make you show a boarding pass but they do

00:57:02   but if you have a platinum amex and a boarding pass they say welcome mr grouper do you need the

00:57:08   wi-fi password and i don't because i've been there before but they have very good wi-fi very

00:57:14   comfortable chairs they have desks they have food that is actually really pretty good for free a

00:57:21   full service bar and you could just get alcoholic beverages for free they just give them to you

00:57:26   they've got really nice bathrooms they've even got like showers so that if you're on some kind

00:57:32   of extended trip or have a really long layover or something you can get a shower it's all quote

00:57:38   unquote free but it's not free it's something you get as a perk for paying i think i don't know i

00:57:45   don't know what my annual fee is it's i think three or five hundred dollars or something like that

00:57:50   i don't know you pay like three or four hundred dollars a year to have an atnam amex platinum card

00:57:55   and one of the perks is you get access to these centurion lounges i message is sort of like that

00:58:02   for apple device users it is free they just give it to you if you pay for an iphone an ipad or a mac

00:58:11   and you just get a very nice end-to-end encrypted high speed very reliable messaging service for all

00:58:20   of your devices it doesn't compress your images it lets you send video you can send big video

00:58:25   attachments doesn't recompress those but if you don't have an amex card you can't get in a lounge

00:58:31   you can just wait in the terminal right and pay for your food and that's like sms and beeper is

00:58:39   sort of like a way that you can come into the centurion lounge and show like a fake platinum

00:58:44   card and get in and get all the free food i i think the analogy kind of holds i mean but i think

00:58:50   a very a very john grubber analogy for sure and a long way to go to get to the idea that apple runs

00:58:55   servers you know how to use them without apple's permission i think the government case and this is

00:58:59   you know what everyone should have access to that centurion lounge if that came to pass like

00:59:03   centurion round is so important that you should not deny anyone access but the solution would be

00:59:07   very much you've talked about so many past shows all the degrees that say apple has to allow third

00:59:11   party processing if apple was ever forced to open the iMessage network they would say fine anyone

00:59:15   can go in the iMessage network you just pay us this license fee and show us the source code to

00:59:19   your app and the license fees would be so high we're like oh i'm not going to pay that to get on

00:59:23   that's not fair and it's well the government just said you need to have access and they didn't say

00:59:26   you needed to be able to build a profitable business by selling a client for giving i'm

00:59:31   going to give away the paper client for free i'm going to charge you two dollars a month

00:59:34   but wait apple wants how much money they want how much money per message because there's no

00:59:38   rules in the sort of you let me to allow access dictating the exact economics of how apple allows

00:59:43   you access so yeah you can use a third-party payment processor but you just pay apple

00:59:46   27 instead of 30 well and that holds with the analogy because i could take a if i'm traveling

00:59:53   with a companion who is not a platinum card holder i could take them into the centurion lounge by

01:00:01   paying 50 per adult it's 30 bucks for a kid and 50 bucks for an adult and you have to pay with

01:00:08   a platinum card nice apple doesn't have that option with iMessage but like you said if forced

01:00:16   to then they could say okay anybody can join iMessage it's 50 a year and try telling somebody

01:00:21   that they have to pay for a messaging service yeah or whatever it would cost and this is the

01:00:25   other factor that's why i mentioned them showing the source code is apple doesn't want clients that

01:00:30   it doesn't know about using its network even if they said iMessage is going to be open to

01:00:33   third-party clients they would have to be some sort of validation maybe a test suite they have

01:00:37   to pass maybe they have to see the source code because every new client you have on the network

01:00:41   is a potential security risk because you end and encrypt doesn't mean everything is safe forever

01:00:47   you have to trust the app you're using because the app in the end decrypts your messages to show them

01:00:50   on your phone screen so the app has access to all your messages in going and outgoing in plain text

01:00:56   and you hope the app isn't secretly sending them off somewhere right and storing them for later

01:01:02   but the only we trust apple not to do that but do you trust this third-party client or that one and

01:01:06   if there's any third-party client on the network that's essentially exfiltrating conversations in

01:01:10   plain text apple would want to know that because that changes the security like people say oh it's

01:01:15   the apple has no argument about security they have a great argument would you want a an unknown

01:01:20   third-party client that's able to exfiltrate messages in plain text on your network you can

01:01:24   no longer say the iMessage network is secure end to end because you don't control the ends anymore

01:01:29   so if they were forced to open the network they would have to have some system whereby they

01:01:33   validate okay this client app this binary say something like app review but actually sane and

01:01:38   working is not doing something nasty with the messages that it is receiving yeah i don't know

01:01:46   what they would in a hypothetical world where regulators do force them to quote unquote open

01:01:51   it up i don't know if that would mean that they would be forced to just have you know would they

01:01:55   comply by apple releasing its own iMessage app for android and say that that's not opening i mean

01:02:02   this will never happen because again i don't think if you want to pick something that apple needs to

01:02:05   open up let's start with the app store maybe and not the thing that actually has competition there

01:02:09   aren't a whole bunch of competing app stores and apples is not the most popular there are a bunch

01:02:13   of competing messaging clients and apples is right it's the most popular in the us but not worldwide

01:02:18   right and it the point i've made this too the other one of the other security points that

01:02:22   beeper keeps brushing past is and as they keep reimplementing the register your phone number

01:02:29   without an iCloud account to use it is as beeper mini first existed and as they keep trying to come

01:02:37   back to apple has lost control over user account creation on their own network yeah and that is a

01:02:43   security problem and beeper might have the best i i do actually believe that beeper has the best

01:02:48   of intentions and are and trustworthy intention yeah we don't think they are exfiltrating it but

01:02:54   how do you know and what about they're not exfiltrating now what if someone buys beeper

01:02:58   what if their client gets hacked what if their company gets hacked right how does apple know

01:03:02   that they're actually storing the messages on device like the cache or whatever's there in a

01:03:06   trustworthy way that other apps on the phone can't read them they don't know and they're like well

01:03:11   we'll show you our source code apple did they didn't want to do this you can't just say they

01:03:15   don't want they don't want to audit your source code it's hard enough for apple to keep its own

01:03:18   clients secure they're constantly bugs in apple's own clients they don't want to multiply that out

01:03:23   and so it's just right particularly iMessage right i it's a the number one source of zero days or it

01:03:29   had been in the past because people receive messages so it's taking years and years for

01:03:34   apple to to work on security problems to wall off the parts of the message app so they're less

01:03:39   exploitable and that's just that's the richest company in the world working on the one and only

01:03:44   ios message app over the course of a decade and a half right we want to open the door to to a

01:03:49   company of the size of beeper yeah sure you can write a client throw in the network it'll be fine

01:03:52   right with a lot of it being operating level operating system level security things like the

01:03:58   whole blast door thing is in the operating system not iMessage for security so that whenever

01:04:03   i long story short or layperson's explanation when an image comes in on iMessage it gets put in

01:04:11   behind a quote-unquote blast door and the image is rendered or read the bits the decoding part of it

01:04:19   is the dangerous part all right this series of bytes claims to be a jpeg let's decode it but

01:04:28   do it in a sandboxed process so that if it's a maliciously formed jpeg it's the code is running

01:04:35   in a process that has access to nothing else including the rest of imus did you hear about

01:04:39   the bios speaking of decoding images you're at the bios bug is uh yeah you don't remember this well

01:04:44   anymore because we have all these apples with a max remember uefi that like the firmware that was

01:04:49   on like efi firmware that was on intel max it was basically like the tiny bit of stuff that gets the

01:04:53   machine running in the beginning that kind of firmware you can put firmware passwords in anyway

01:04:57   there's a bios in the days of pcs some bios are uefi firmware on pcs and it had a feature where

01:05:05   pc makers could have it so it shows their logo when you turn it on oh yeah and the and of course

01:05:10   this tiny little firmware code and it's very simple and it's just it's not a full operating

01:05:14   it's just the firmware and the thing that decodes the vendor image to display on the screen had a

01:05:20   security exploit so you could basically route a machine by giving it a malicious vendor image

01:05:25   to the uefi bios and what can you do you can't like you can't patching the operating system's

01:05:30   gotta help the operating system hasn't come yet you just turn the machine on right the operating

01:05:34   system hasn't even been woken up yet yeah it's too late it's just that yeah so image decoding and why

01:05:39   didn't they make it a little an isolated thing and blast like it's firmware there's not even like a

01:05:44   full operating system running in there yet it's just you're just turning yeah anyway and it was

01:05:49   tricky and again most programmers even really clever ones aren't thinking like an asshole

01:05:58   right they're not thinking like a jerk they're just like oh wouldn't it be cool if instead of

01:06:03   showing all of this stupid terminal garbage you know auto exec bat it probably still shows that

01:06:08   but it shows the logo first yeah well wouldn't it be cool if it showed our logo first and they would

01:06:13   say yes anybody's logo because we're gonna sell this we're gonna sell this bios to lots of pc

01:06:17   makers so just put your logo file right there and you'll be fine right and it's yes that would be

01:06:22   a much cooler way a much cooler thing to see upon first booting your pc so yes let's ship it

01:06:29   and like you said there is no operating system it's just literally just the firmware that's

01:06:35   bootstrapping the computer so it can load an operating system so obviously it's probably very

01:06:41   tightly written possibly assembly code in a memory unsafe language like c probably

01:06:46   uh anyway i do not expect i i expect that this iMessage beeper thing will now settle down and go

01:06:53   away i don't know it's fascinating to me though i guess that to me the most fascinating thing is

01:06:58   the fact that people just people who should know better including i think even the people at beeper

01:07:03   just overlook what iMessage is it is a tremendously large proprietary messaging platform that it just

01:07:12   is sort of seen as invisible it's it must be frustrating to the people who work on like the

01:07:18   iMessage infrastructure because it's like hey what about us i'm busy all the time you know how hard

01:07:25   i work you're just a cost center all right let me take a break here and thank our next sponsor it is

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01:10:18   reads on any of your podcasts i do not do you think you could would you like to uh i would not

01:10:23   like to i could but i would do a terrible job i used to do a terrible job you know that because

01:10:29   i know you listen to my show no yeah you did a terrible job but you got better i think the same

01:10:32   thing would happen to me i would do a terrible job for a few years eventually i would get better but

01:10:36   it is not a thing i relish doing i will tell you that's one thing you cannot you can't practice it

01:10:41   or at least i couldn't i tried talking to myself without a microphone on tried doing it can't do it

01:10:47   you got to actually do it i don't know how did marco end up as the sponsored guy seems like casey

01:10:53   because casey's sort of like to do all the work yeah but marco does an amazing job on them he's

01:10:57   really good he was not as good at the beginning but he started off better than you and he got

01:11:02   better real fast and i think casey does a great job too casey is you're right casey is more

01:11:06   naturally inclined to do it he's casey's only done a few ads and i think he started off even better

01:11:09   than marco but he just hasn't done as many so he doesn't have the experience yeah it seemed it was

01:11:14   casey's job seems to be to do all the pre-show work he told he said on the last episode hey

01:11:20   what planet do you want to do all the pre-show work he he said the other day that on the days

01:11:25   you guys record he said yeah he sits down in the morning what he said was he sits down in the

01:11:30   morning and he goes over all the notes and all the links how do you think all those notes and

01:11:33   links get there that he's looking at in that morning who put them there that was me he sits

01:11:38   down in the morning of the show and looks at now what am i going to do today because i've already

01:11:42   put it all there don't get this wrong okay we all do our own we all pitch in and we all do our own

01:11:49   things but there are they're somewhat distinct and when marco does the post he does all the editing

01:11:55   and yes exactly actual publishing it's i don't know you should try it on one of your podcasts

01:12:00   too late for atp but no thanks what else do i have on the agenda here oh there's the ios passcode

01:12:07   story which is ongoing i don't have a lot more to add about this i know that you guys talked about

01:12:12   it but the are you gonna are you gonna turn your you're gonna turn on the stolen device protection

01:12:18   i am i'm gonna try it i i have mixed feelings about whether i want to or not because i kind

01:12:23   of feel like what happens am i going to be annoyed if i ever do but then i thought like i don't think

01:12:28   i've learned enough about it to think that i'm actually not going to be annoyed assuming there's

01:12:31   no bugs that are catastrophic and screw me over right i think it really won't impact my life at

01:12:38   all i think so too because i realized i never change i never change passwords right like the

01:12:44   idea that you don't tell people that on a podcast you change passwords constantly they're all very

01:12:49   unique and random and they're always changing i think it's i think a lot of my passwords including

01:12:54   i think my iCloud password are easily 10 years old like the idea that you're supposed to regularly

01:13:00   change your passwords as good password hygiene i think is not just nonsense but you shouldn't

01:13:07   change it every 90 days but you can change it once every few decades i mean your security practices

01:13:12   may not be the best yeah they're probably not but but then i think but if i don't change my iCloud

01:13:17   password and or if i do only change it once a decade why do i care if i have to wait an hour

01:13:22   and i guess i i don't have to wait an hour if i do it at home i know you changed your apple id

01:13:27   password at least once because you told me your apple id password remember when you reset your

01:13:30   apple id password to something so i could use it do you remember that it was ages ago before our

01:13:36   apple ids were email addresses and you wanted me to do something with your apple id so you changed

01:13:40   your password to some simple phrase that i could use and then i logged into your apple id and did

01:13:45   something and then you changed it back i don't i have no recollection of that whatsoever i i you

01:13:49   know why i know that because i was recently cleaning out my keychain and i found that iCloud

01:13:53   password for your old non-email apple id do you remember what the password was nope but i remember

01:13:59   the apple id was john space grouper yep and the the password was the other john ah there you go

01:14:06   the other john now that rings a bell yeah yeah remember that oh you changed your apple id password

01:14:11   at least once i'm hoping it's not still the other john you know what though that's a different apple

01:14:18   id yeah i know it's nice again we've all so much has changed since then no that's but the main

01:14:24   thing my takeaway about this whole saga since joanna and nicole when first started reporting on

01:14:29   it is you're okay as long as your device passcode is a secret and as long as you treat it as a holy

01:14:37   i saw you when you say that the pines like i'm just gonna be real careful and not let people see

01:14:43   my passcode who do you think you are i just hold it real close to my chest you don't you go to

01:14:48   casinos everyone can see everything i don't i but i i almost never need to enter my device

01:14:55   passcode all the time i don't think you're as as james bond as you think you are and hiding your

01:15:01   i wouldn't i if i were in a casino i wouldn't enter my device passcode on my phone i really

01:15:07   have three three drinks in you just want your phone unlocked face id fails for some reason you

01:15:11   get frustrated you type in no i wouldn't because i and i'd be super i would actually be extra

01:15:15   suspicious in a casino because there's shifty people about well i mean if you're in a casino

01:15:21   you got another problem because you got the what is it rubber hose encryption you know about that

01:15:24   one where they just put you in a chair and beat you with rubber hose until you right on the passcode

01:15:28   they don't even have to do that they're just going to grab your phone from you hold your arms behind

01:15:31   your back hold up to your face all right so i don't know maybe i should turn it on and and i

01:15:36   thought that uh talking to joanna like when apple announced the stolen device protection last week

01:15:42   she wouldn't tell me she didn't she did not spoil it she's a good wall street journal employee and

01:15:47   would not say what it was but she said i'm so annoyed because i've spent a ton of effort on

01:15:53   something coming next week and i'm worried that this spoils it and i was like oh i'll look forward

01:15:58   to it and then the the thing was she traveled all the way to minnesota to visit a guy in prison who

01:16:06   was part of a crime ring who had stolen police say at least 300 000 not just of phones but then

01:16:13   using this technique of get the passcode then go in the phone and change the icloud password and

01:16:20   turn off find my so the victim is can't do anything with the phone and is locked out of their icloud

01:16:27   and now you can get into their keychain and look for bank accounts look for paypal look for venmo

01:16:34   and start clearing the cash out of that and then start going to retail places and uh using apple

01:16:41   paid to buy what you can and he told her that while the police said that they stole 300 000

01:16:48   worth of stuff he thinks it was more like a million which i'm not quite sure it whether to believe him

01:16:53   and give him credit for honesty he had a ridiculous accounting i'm sure of everything he stole in a

01:16:59   notebook like in the style of the wire i also i do i i do think he was being honest at the end

01:17:06   where his regret was getting too greedy not that he had been living a life of crime there's a lesson

01:17:12   for the silicon valley people that he just had a lifestyle criminal business but no we have to try

01:17:16   to be as big as facebook but my my my favorite takeaway from the video and again and i i'll spoil

01:17:23   the detail she did not make public but she she actually went there to interview him on her

01:17:28   birthday so it was ruined the family fun of joanna stern's birthday but i thought one of the best

01:17:34   parts they actually got at the last minute some security footage from like some minneapolis bars

01:17:41   it where this guy she interviewed with him showing him like with his victims and it was way more

01:17:50   social engineering than even i was thinking and as soon as i saw it i was like you know what i should

01:17:55   you should all never underestimate how much of any of these hacks is social engineering like it

01:18:00   wasn't like surreptitious it wasn't oh we'll set up a guy with a camera to look at this thing it

01:18:06   was like he everybody had a couple of drinks and he's got his arm around the one guy they're like

01:18:11   friends and he would say it's like hey you should like join my snapchat account follow me on

01:18:17   instagram or something here give me your phone i'll give you my account and people would just

01:18:21   hand their phone over to this stranger and then he would squeeze the two buttons and say hey it's

01:18:25   locked oh and then they'd say and some of them he said would just give him the number it's one two

01:18:31   three four and he'd say one two three four and then he'd put them on his snapchat give him the

01:18:35   phone back and then later on steal their phone and now he knows their number and the game is over but

01:18:41   it's the willy-nillyness with that people were willing to share their device passcodes with a

01:18:47   stranger it surprised me and then i thought about it and i thought i don't think people have any

01:18:52   idea how i think that's the fundamental problem it's one of those things that you're never going

01:18:57   to think about until it happens to you and then the dawning real the series of cascading dawning

01:19:02   realizations of how much power someone has if they have your access to your phone yeah i mean

01:19:07   and then any in any security system humans are always the weakest link so it makes perfect sense

01:19:11   to go after them first don't try to crack the encryption just get the guy to get a few drinks

01:19:15   and tell you the number i think that most people think that it's just sort of that the passcode is

01:19:21   on your phone just to keep people from like nosing through your pictures or something you know right

01:19:27   going through all of your pictures reading all of your emails and and they think if i'm only going

01:19:33   to hand my phone to this guy for a minute while he pops types right i got the phone right back

01:19:37   i'm fine i got the phone right back i know that he wasn't going through my pictures or whatever

01:19:42   they think what's the difference they don't care it's almost like the sharing the bathroom code

01:19:48   with somebody right right oh what's the code to go to the bathroom oh it's four three two one

01:19:52   oh okay and then they go in there they don't think of it that way whereas they would never give a

01:19:58   stranger their atm pin code exactly but their device and the atm is way better protected because

01:20:05   you can't take out more than 200 or whatever and there's a camera right there in front of the thing

01:20:10   and your phone probably has access to the same bank account that your thing so your phone passcode

01:20:16   is like a superset of your atm pin code but nobody would just give their pin code to a stranger so i

01:20:22   think basically treating your device passcode as a secret at least as valuable as your atm code

01:20:28   gets you most of the way to not having to worry about this but like you said on the other hand

01:20:33   i don't even know what the downsides are to turning on the stolen device protection for me

01:20:37   you should turn it on and see if you even notice the downside because if you said share location

01:20:40   to your house that you never leave and given how often you change your passwords this will not

01:20:45   come up in your life i don't think you'll notice that it is there but and in fact i would suggest

01:20:49   as we talked about an atp they're like maybe have all the your family members turn it on as well

01:20:54   and see if it annoys them because you can always disable it after but like why not try it and see

01:20:59   if you turn it on and they don't even know get their consent obviously but if you say i'm going

01:21:03   to turn this on and if it ever annoys you in any way let me know and we can turn it off but i just

01:21:07   want to try it yeah i i kind of think that's probably true i've kind of coming around to that

01:21:12   because the worst case scenario oh okay i don't like having this on then the worst case scenario

01:21:18   is you have to when you decide i don't like having this you have to wait an hour before you turn it

01:21:23   don't have to wait an hour for you to trust the location right and i guess you don't i i'm still

01:21:27   not confused about that because i was but i i think part of the reason that my test device

01:21:34   didn't recognize my home is my home is that it's a test device using a spare apple id not my apple

01:21:41   id i just don't want to turn this on on a beta operating yeah yeah yeah i mean that's why is it

01:21:45   usually using your test apple id too but also i think the trust the location thing is going to be

01:21:49   configurable so it's not like it's just your home and your work i think you can set locations but

01:21:53   we'll i i definitely wouldn't use this in beta if you don't have to and don't use it on your real

01:21:57   apple id in beta but once it comes out we'll see yeah uh also in the news apple's journal app

01:22:03   shipped have you used it have you looked at it i launched it for the first time while you were

01:22:07   doing an ad read literally the first time ever launched it i have no interest in an app like this

01:22:12   but i do know that this type of app is popular and i think it is i think it has reached a level

01:22:17   popularity that it is reasonable for apple to ship a rudimentary one of these with their phone plus

01:22:23   the whole thing what they're doing with api so that third parties can contribute items that might

01:22:27   appear in the journal it's kind of one way it's not quite the way you'd want it to be kind of like a

01:22:32   calendar where third parties can make full-fledged calendar apps for example or photos apps where you

01:22:37   know but this is like the other direction where like well third-party apps can contribute stuff

01:22:41   that you might want to put into your apple journal in your apple journal app which is not

01:22:44   completely open but like i said i think it is a reasonable thing for there to be a default one

01:22:50   of these on every iphone i can't pass any judgment on the feature set of this app because i do not

01:22:55   use journaling apps but presumably it's a 1.0 and it will get better i have never kept a journal or

01:23:01   a diary really regularly but i've been playing with this app and so i am but i don't think i'm

01:23:09   going to keep it up but i'm doing it mostly just because i keep i'm really interested in the app

01:23:14   and at first i was so confused why this thing that they announced at wwdc in june

01:23:21   didn't ship until 17.2 in december and it's iphone only for the moment there's no ipad or mac app

01:23:31   and it is a really simple app it is just a list of entries there's a plus button at the bottom

01:23:38   to make a new entry and you make entries and then there's a list of them it doesn't have a search

01:23:44   feature yet so you can't search it again doesn't have ipad or mac clients i was like how could this

01:23:50   have not shipped on time and then the light bulb went off and i realized the app is very simple

01:23:57   and thin and iphone only but the work was all of these apis because the apis work two ways there's

01:24:05   the suggestions that the system gives to the app so like when you hit the plus button it'll say

01:24:11   oh you went on a walk yesterday do you want to use that as a journal entry for yesterday and there's

01:24:17   a map a little map insert that'll show you the course or wherever it was that you went or it'll

01:24:24   show you recent photos or something like that and those are apis that third-party journaling apps

01:24:30   can use so like day one to name the i guess the most popular long-standing ios journaling app can

01:24:38   and i guess is using those apis to get suggestions or prompts for entries and i guess it works

01:24:44   the other way too where those third-party apps can offer their own suggestions to the system

01:24:52   so that any journaling app that that subscribes to this can do it that's where all the work was

01:24:57   to do this to add these features and to cross every i or cross every t dot every i to make

01:25:06   sure that it's private because obviously journaling personal journaling information

01:25:10   is inherently needs to be private that's where all the work was and why it didn't ship till 17.2

01:25:17   but i find the app itself fascinating because i think most journaling apps i've looked at day one

01:25:23   over the years it never again i don't want to keep a journal so i'm not really in the target market

01:25:28   but it seems like most of them it gets to the design idea of what's like the atomic element of

01:25:34   your app and i think for most journaling apps they're sort of like calendars where the atomic

01:25:40   unit is a day where it's like okay here's a new day what happened today and the day is the unit

01:25:48   which i think kind of is like going from the skeuomorphic era of where you kept a diary in

01:25:56   an actual book right and if you can keep a diary in just a plain notebook but they sell diaries

01:26:02   that have like dates at the top already right so you just already it's like a page is a day

01:26:07   like it's like a combination calendar type thing apple has obviously a notes app that's been on the

01:26:16   iphone since the first version you could i'm sure there are probably with a billion plus users

01:26:23   there's probably millions of people who keep a journal or a diary in apple notes right you could

01:26:28   just say here's a new note or here's a folder in my notes that's my journal they have hashtags in

01:26:36   notes now so you could use a hashtag to keep your journal entries or something like that and notes

01:26:41   has a lock so that you can put like an extra layer of layer of security on certain notes or

01:26:47   like a whole folder at a time but the journal app used and this is where i was like i wonder what

01:26:53   apple's going to do why they're not making this part of the notes app and what fascinates me about

01:27:00   it is that the metaphor for the journal app to me is clearly inspired not by like a notes app

01:27:07   but instead by like social networking it's like your own personal one person social twitter just

01:27:13   for you and so instead you don't have days you just have entries so you could do three entries

01:27:19   on one day you could do none for a while and you don't need a title you just hit plus start typing

01:27:26   you can add pictures or a map or something and then you're done and then you just have this

01:27:31   one timeline of entries ordered chronologically i it's deceptively simple but i feel like

01:27:38   i've never seen that idea put forth in a personal app rather than a public social networking app

01:27:44   in my first 30 seconds with the app i just said i launched it for literally the first time ever

01:27:49   earlier and i also just tried to like hit the plus button to to make an entry and in the first run

01:27:56   experience it says as it has a sheet that explains what it's going to do and it says do you want to

01:28:00   allow me to do suggestions like the thing you just described so the other apps can suggest things to

01:28:04   it or whatever and i said yes allow suggestions and then it popped up an os dialog for allow

01:28:09   notifications just the regular notification dialog i said okay and then i'm when i hit okay i was

01:28:14   back to the same screen that i had seen previously but the one big button on the bottom that said

01:28:18   allow suggestions was grayed out because i had already hit it and i was like so what do i do now

01:28:23   and i wiggled the sheet a little bit and it wiggled up and down i'm like is this a bug is there

01:28:28   some button i should be able to hit do i swipe the sheet away no is there anything animating on the

01:28:34   screen can i get the thing behind it i tapped on the thing behind the sheet nothing happened and

01:28:40   then eventually the sheet slid down and what it revealed to me is that i had been working hard to

01:28:45   build up that big giant grid of memories and images and prompts and everything behind the scenes

01:28:50   right i know this isn't specifically about the journal app but i'm gonna say that it's another

01:28:55   one of those pieces of basic information about human interaction design that has somehow departed

01:29:00   the company of apple when your computer is doing anything that takes a little bit longer than

01:29:06   expected put up something on the screen so people know that the computer is busy and it will be done

01:29:11   in a little bit it could be a watch cursor it could be a progress bar it could be an

01:29:15   indeterminate spinner and i know you think it's not going to take a long time but i have 175,000

01:29:20   pictures on my phone and when it does take more than two seconds pop up a spinner very frustrated

01:29:26   i think it's another piece of the same mentality at apple that has gotten them away from showing

01:29:34   error messages when things go wrong yeah and i kind of understand that one as well but it's

01:29:39   this is fundamentals it's like fundamentals in basketball dribbling passing there there used to

01:29:45   be in the old days in the prehistoric days in the dinosaur era error messages from any software were

01:29:52   always just cryptic codes right error 128 or something like sometimes it was a negative number

01:29:58   yeah sometimes it was a negative number there i used to know what that meant what the hell did

01:30:01   that mean in classic mac negative meant something i think it was like i don't know but you'd get an

01:30:08   error number and there was no google there was no internet or are there but negative 37 with a bomb

01:30:15   icon would become your friend right and then you could duly report well if you had a way because

01:30:21   you remember a lot of the you know if you go back far enough and you and i both do where you didn't

01:30:26   even have emails reporting a bug to the developer might have meant writing a letter and putting it

01:30:31   into postal mail but you could tell them you've got error 37 and somebody somewhere has a list

01:30:38   of what the error codes are and what they actually mean and we all learned as user interface designers

01:30:44   or critics whichever side or both that we could be that's a bad way of doing errors and that your

01:30:49   error messages should be descriptive and give as much helpful information to the user describing

01:30:54   what went wrong and what what action you might take what actions you might take and i remember

01:31:00   it might even still be there somewhere in the remnants of the human interface guidelines of

01:31:05   what they are but when the human when the hig was really a book there was like a whole chapter i

01:31:10   think about like writing good error messages yeah exactly i mean and that one their heart's the

01:31:15   right place with that one but with the thing that i'm talking about is one of those things where

01:31:19   i think that's probably still in the hick which is look if you have an operation it's going to take

01:31:22   over a certain amount of time put something up so the user knows that they're waiting on the computer

01:31:26   but you know the people who made this program it's like when they hit that button we're going to be

01:31:30   so fast at composing the screen that sheet's going to slide down in a fraction of a second

01:31:35   there's no way this is ever going to take more than a fraction of a second and they don't test

01:31:39   with the photo library the size of mine and now i'm waiting long enough to be struggling to figure

01:31:43   out what the hell i'm supposed to press on the screen trying to tell if the app is frozen yeah

01:31:47   do you need to force quit no where i was going to with the error message to me in modern it like

01:31:51   apple took error messages in the right way long ago where they made them more descriptive and

01:31:56   tried to get third-party developers to get more descriptive but modern apple has said error

01:32:01   messages are bad and rather taking that to mean let's write even more reliable software that

01:32:07   doesn't generate errors they just don't show errors they errors occur and to me far worse

01:32:15   than just saying error negative 37 is not showing anything at all and not having anything because

01:32:22   what it does is it adds doubt to everyone's mind and when anything is happening they're like

01:32:27   is our errors silently occurring or is this normal operation because at least when you're

01:32:31   when you expect if anything goes wrong i'm going to see some stupid error message at least you know

01:32:35   if i don't see one of those nothing has gone wrong yet but you can't make that assumption once

01:32:39   they've trained you that hey something could be going wrong we're not going to tell you about it

01:32:42   right and so i think they're doing the same thing now with progress indicators where they're like

01:32:46   that's a bad experience and so instead of writing that in the next version instead of writing taking

01:32:51   that to heart and writing software that never takes more than a fraction of a second to do

01:32:57   anything they just don't show a progress i mean but that's not possible i know things scale like

01:33:02   they in the common case yes it's not going to take a while the app wasn't hung like i said i could

01:33:06   still move the sheet up and down like it's not it wasn't a hang right it was just simply they just

01:33:10   never expected this take a long period of time so there was no sort of they didn't think start a

01:33:15   timer and if the timer reaches three seconds throw show a spinner there's no place to show a spinner

01:33:19   they're never going to show a spinner no matter how long it takes and they just it's not a big

01:33:22   deal but and by the way speaking of error messages from from the gaming world your son may know this

01:33:27   but the gaming world has to tackle a similar problem because modern video games are fiendishly

01:33:31   complex the the one a popular game that i play destiny the way they handle this is not unique

01:33:36   to destiny many games do this but i'm very familiar with it in destiny is anytime there's an

01:33:40   error for the application for whatever the reason they will they essentially have that same

01:33:46   dictionary of numbers negative 9 57 whatever right but they don't put like an error code up on the

01:33:51   screen to make you report that error they map them all to words so you get weasel errors beaver

01:33:56   errors like they're all like animal like memorable names like that because gamers will all talk to

01:34:02   each other and say oh i got a weasel error it's memorable they remember it it's not like they have

01:34:06   to write it down when it happens or whatever how many beaver errors are happening to and on the

01:34:10   back end that means something to them but that mapping is such great social engineering because

01:34:16   it's not like people know it remember it and report it without having to write it down when

01:34:21   it happens error one h p q 974 that's actually pretty clever i like that i'm not familiar with

01:34:28   that but i will check anyway i just i i admire the design of the journal app as a social feed

01:34:34   that is anti-social because it's just for you i think it's a super clever design and i really do

01:34:40   i don't i mean i'm not the developer of day one so maybe they're not happy about it but i think

01:34:47   in terms of not sure locking the existent entrance in the market doing this ultra minimal version of

01:34:57   a journal that i find very appealing i find this to be that this is the closest i started using it

01:35:03   only to test and explore the app but it's the most inspired i've ever been to actually use it as a

01:35:09   journal because the metaphor is so simple and clicks for me and is so to me original it's just

01:35:18   so not overkill i really like it um i do and i agree i think like this type of thing where apple

01:35:24   when there's a common use case like this where a certain genre of app is popular apple should make

01:35:29   one and include it with the phone it makes the phone more valuable and i don't think if done

01:35:33   well that really hurts the market for third-party ones because what they're doing is introducing

01:35:37   people to the idea of journaling and if they want a better journaling app third-party apps are

01:35:40   available and especially if they take the approach again using calendars as an example there's a

01:35:45   thriving ecosystem for third-party calendar apps because the operating system calendar is accessible

01:35:51   to third-party apps you can make a calendar app that can do essentially everything that apple's

01:35:56   calendar app can do uh if they can do that with journaling as well they haven't quite gone that

01:36:01   far with journaling but if they can do it with journaling as well what it does is make a healthier

01:36:05   more thriving ecosystem for journaling apps instead of saying oh you've sherlocked me and now

01:36:09   i can't uh ship a commercial uh journaling app because you give everyone for free right the

01:36:14   other thing that journal app does that i think is a first for apple is the floating plus button at

01:36:18   the bottom that's a very google yeah yeah that's a androidy googly off the top of my head i can't

01:36:26   think i uh doesn't tweet bot or not tweet bot yeah a lot of a lot of third-party uh twitter

01:36:30   clients and uh and mastodon clients do have the flame i hate it i hate the floating button but

01:36:34   yeah it's there it covers up the content it does it does but it just emphasizes to me the fact that

01:36:43   it is like a personal social network feed right it's yeah yeah the plus button is sort of like

01:36:47   that so hats off to apple for doing that uh i there must be i actually did speak to somebody

01:36:54   at apple pr before journal came out they wanted to i had a 10-minute webex call before 17.2 shipped

01:37:01   because they wanted to sort of build the hype for it and build the awareness for it and of course

01:37:08   i all my none of my questions ever get answered for the most part like i asked is there going to

01:37:13   be an ipad or mac client and of course the answer was we we don't talk about our future products

01:37:19   yeah right but as it stands journal already does sync to icloud by i guess you could turn it off

01:37:27   the way that you can turn off any apps access to icloud but out of the box if you were signed into

01:37:32   icloud it does sync to icloud so if you lose your phone you won't lose your journal and if you have

01:37:39   two iphones yeah which of course you do which of course i do you can see that they stay in

01:37:45   sync with each other so they have built a sync system that would seemingly already work if if

01:37:51   and when there come ipad and mac clients oh yeah speaking of losing your stuff that's the other

01:37:56   thing that it gives me a little bit of pause about journal and why it would be better if it was well

01:38:01   i don't know if it was like calendar would be the same deal i suppose if you're going to spend weeks

01:38:07   months years of your life journaling in there putting your precious memories building up years

01:38:11   worth of content what you hope is that apple respects that and if apple decides that they

01:38:15   don't want to make the journaling app anymore they'll have some way for you to export that in

01:38:19   a reasonable format but even if that happens it's still disappointing oh man i use this app for my

01:38:23   kids childhood years and we put so many memories in it and now the app just is gone and can i get

01:38:28   an export or did i miss the thing and what i'm thinking of is something that i did with my kids

01:38:32   we had iwebsites remember iweb yes of course we had pictures of our kids and a blog about them

01:38:38   we would show to family members and a password-protected iwebsite and iweb was not a

01:38:43   great program it was kind of unwieldy but we filled it with years and years of stuff and iweb

01:38:47   of course is no longer a thing at apple and i have these giant iweb archive like the data file for

01:38:53   iweb but it's just sitting in my backups and i don't really have a good way to view it i did

01:38:58   do a bunch of html exports and stuff so you can kind of see it and i believe i still have it

01:39:01   online somewhere but iweb the application no longer exists or runs except for really old

01:39:06   versions of mac stuff and i always worried when apple does something like this is can they be

01:39:10   trusted with my memories when it comes to calendar and photos i think they probably can be trusted

01:39:15   but the journaling thing i'm not entirely sure they're so dedicated that this is worth putting

01:39:19   decades of your time into yeah there is no export feature no import feature i mean it's a 1.0 it is

01:39:26   a 1.0 like i said there's no search even yeah which is seems like there has to be a search

01:39:31   eventually but you would i would imagine you just pull down and a search box will come from the top

01:39:37   yeah search is missing as a day-to-day usability feature now and export is missing but also raises

01:39:44   questions about the privacy security again i think and there there ought to be eventually a way to

01:39:52   export i mean it seems criminal i mean as far as i can tell now if you really wanted to export you'd

01:39:56   have to go through one by one select all copy and paste yeah i mean this is another area where apple

01:40:03   could have a little bit more religion about this because the other example that i hear complaints

01:40:08   about a lot is iMessage believe it or not right people people think of iMessage as i mean maybe

01:40:14   this is like some people have it in their mind some people have in their mind that iMessage is

01:40:18   forever and so the conversation they had when they first met their wife five years ago before

01:40:23   they went on their first date and they iMessaged back and forth and they had cute flirting and

01:40:26   stuff they a apparently they think they can somehow get back to that by scrolling which

01:40:31   i don't know how they do that but b if that ever disappears they consider it like data loss you

01:40:36   remove pictures pictures from my wife and i just met if apple accidentally deleted them or they

01:40:40   scroll off the end or if they didn't think people would be furious but some people not all people

01:40:44   but some people view iMessage the same way and apple either doesn't view iMessages that way or

01:40:50   is not able to implement iMessage in a way that makes looking back at that old conversation

01:40:55   possible yeah that's one of my big complaints about iMessage just that it is really hard to go

01:41:01   back in time and search is better than it was but still better right uh that's a that that's

01:41:09   a perfect description yes better than it was but not great you ever try to scroll back on the mac

01:41:14   version it was awful before and it's still bad but it's just so weird like they really need to do like

01:41:18   a month years like they do in photos like where you can go in granular chunks but i just think

01:41:23   the sync system for messages and the way the service is designed is not meant to be a permanent

01:41:28   archive for of decades long conversations forever and ever which means that if you want that out of

01:41:33   it apple should implement an export feature of some kind to make some kind of offline archiver

01:41:38   i don't know or maybe they just have to be more clear that's not what iMessage is and

01:41:41   if you really care about messages i don't know take screenshots of them or something

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01:44:17   and you get a free trial 30 days no credit card required no watermarks on your site for the 30

01:44:23   day free trial just it's a real deal you get 30 days you got all the features you get everything

01:44:29   you want no marks and then when the 30 days up you can just go to squarespace.com/talk show

01:44:35   that's squarespace.com/talk show use that code talk show and you save 10% off your first purchase

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01:44:47   code so my thanks to Squarespace for their continuing support of this podcast and my

01:44:54   favorite podcast ATP over on the other side of this conversation so I guess it's getting close

01:45:00   to wrap it up but other things in the news infinite loop company store to close that's

01:45:06   that just happened this week or they're going to close it next month have you were you ever at the

01:45:10   infinite loop company store yeah I think I've been there a couple times I was only there once that I

01:45:16   can remember and it was recently because it was in the era when it looked like it didn't look it

01:45:21   it looks a little different than most apple stores but it looked mostly like yeah I was never there

01:45:26   back before apple retail because I heard it looked very different then did you see I I linked on on

01:45:32   daring fireball to a reddit thread that had some photos of what it looked like circa 1993-94

01:45:40   and then I later today I found scrolling down the same thread I guess it's the same user there was

01:45:48   apple made a quicktime vr of the store back in the day when that was a thing and so this industrious

01:45:55   and helpful reddit user made a screen recording of the quicktime vr which because the quicktime

01:46:02   vr doesn't really play anymore so he found I don't know if he was emulating or had an old mac

01:46:08   and used the quicktime vr and made a video and so you could kind of see what it was like to walk

01:46:13   through it is so apple 1993 and if you were an apple user back then or a mac user it can't help

01:46:22   but bring nostalgia but it also emphasized just how far apples come because it really just sort

01:46:29   of looked like a nice it was a nice egghead yeah yeah like a nice egghead exactly like if your

01:46:35   neighborhood mac reseller was really nice and had new shelves that's because that's what computer

01:46:41   stores look like they had box software right lined up on a bunch of shelves you have computers on a

01:46:46   little like a little table kitty corner to the end cap on some display and you had a bunch of it was

01:46:51   like that combined with the merch store at your kid's college right to have the sweatshirts you

01:46:55   could buy yeah it was just very like the the floor plan the layout of how all the racks are arranged

01:47:02   it was like a software retail store combined with the college store in 1990 yeah i have in fact have

01:47:09   been at my son's merch store at his university and it yes it's exactly laid out like the apple

01:47:15   company store was in 1994 drop ceilings apple has leveled up in production values in so many ways

01:47:24   but none more so than architecture yeah the current retail stores and they've always been are so much

01:47:31   more beautiful and elegant but also a little bit more kind of spare and impersonal and i still wish

01:47:38   they had checkout lines i've given up on that but i do i do still wish that they did and i still

01:47:45   i guess the reason i've i complain less is for the most part when i go to my local apple store

01:47:52   it's to buy something that you couldn't order online or that's the it's a little thing like

01:47:59   a battery pack or i did i actually did when they discontinued the apple iphone battery pack i went

01:48:07   and bought one while they still had them because i thought that's it's a really good battery pack

01:48:12   and i thought that's it's a good way to sort of have a iphone that could be charged either by

01:48:20   usb-c or lightning because then if you have usb-c you could plug it in the phone i don't know if that

01:48:26   was a smart move or not but like i wrote on the site the other day money runs through my hands

01:48:30   like water so i bought one i went last week i popped in and bought 12 south a third-party

01:48:37   peripheral maker has a new 130. it's they say it's meant for travel but it's it's uh

01:48:46   it's a little aluminum thing i'll put it i swear to god i will put it in the show notes but they

01:48:52   only are selling it it's made by 12 south but they're only selling it through apple stores

01:48:56   and i couldn't buy it online or if i went to buy it online it wouldn't ship till january but i could

01:49:02   go to my local apple store and pick it up right now so i went to the local apple store and picked

01:49:06   it up but i could just walk in pick it up the shelf and then just check myself out yeah check

01:49:11   out thing i still haven't done that yet i've gotten to the point now where i'm comfortable

01:49:15   with it i've i every time i've done it and in the philadelphia store they have actual police

01:49:21   officers at the front door every single time i did it for years i would think i'm gonna get stopped

01:49:27   i'm gonna get stopped and then i'm gonna have to talk show them my phone and nope i could just walk

01:49:32   right out i mean it's it breaks some part of my brain that says that i need to check out right

01:49:39   before walking out just wait until they implement that amazon technology where you just walk in and

01:49:43   pull it off the shelf and walk out and they figure out how much to charge you later the 12th south

01:49:48   thing is a little circular thing it's a little bit bigger than a pair of airpods pro case and it's

01:49:55   two parts and it breaks apart and on the one side it takes usb-c in and it's a charger so you can

01:50:01   put your phone on the one side and then on the other side is an apple watch charger that pops up

01:50:07   so that you could use the watch as a whatever they call it nightstand mode and the recent airpods

01:50:14   cases also charge on that same thing so for traveling it's super small super lightweight

01:50:20   charges your iphone at the high speed for magsafe charges your watch at the new high speed which is

01:50:26   a lot faster than the old speed and you could charge your airpods case on either side of it

01:50:32   and so apple used to make the same thing i forget what apple called theirs but it's you know it folds

01:50:37   yeah i remember that the apple one was like 150 bucks and the problem with the apple one well hey

01:50:41   now the problem is it was like lightning in and lightning is no longer something we talk about

01:50:47   but the other thing was that the size of it the iphones got so big that they kind of got too big

01:50:53   to fit comfortably on it the camera bump the camera bump pushed it off that's a problem with

01:50:57   a lot of the inductive charging things right so this one made by 12 south has a pleather

01:51:04   connector between the two circular halves and they made the pleather thing far enough apart that

01:51:12   i think iphones could get significantly bigger and you'd still have no problem fitting it side by

01:51:17   side so 130 bucks not cheap but it seems like a very good product there's my review just put it

01:51:22   on your christmas list why are you buying this stuff for yourself see that's i'm the worst you

01:51:26   talk to my wife i am the worst you know you're getting this here and i i had nothing charcoal

01:51:33   that's what you're getting because you're almost out i am i should get charcoal no i'm the worst

01:51:38   person to buy gifts for because even in december when the idea pops into my head you just demonstrated

01:51:46   it that i would like x i just i am meat and i i don't just go get it i get it the way that is the

01:51:53   fastest so whatever the fastest way for me to get whatever it is that just popped into my head that

01:51:59   i should buy i just do it as you're walking out the door your wife should have said where are you

01:52:03   going i'm going to the apple store to buy something she said what are you buying tell them tell it to

01:52:07   me i'll get it to you for christmas i want it now well and i bought it i don't know it's probably

01:52:11   four or five days ago i still i'm podcasting about it now but i keep thinking i'll at least link to

01:52:16   it and write some form of minimal review on daring fireball i'm obviously running out of time before

01:52:21   christmas so whatever i would have told you four days ago well i will definitely have written about

01:52:26   it before christmas so i couldn't wait until christmas to do this obviously at this point i'm

01:52:31   i easily could have gotten it as a stocking stuffer but i didn't are you are you like that

01:52:37   do you or are you more diligent and if you have stuff you want you'll suggest to your family it

01:52:42   would be nice if they bought you blank i mean i have the discipline now that around november

01:52:47   things that i would normally just buy for myself instead of buying them put them on a list see i

01:52:51   don't do it i have no discipline i am the absolute worst but you're going to keep that passcode secret

01:52:57   no one will ever see it nope nobody will ever see the person with no discipline is going to make

01:53:02   that happen you know what this feature would have been great for this feature would have been great

01:53:05   during covid when we had masks and the so at the time everybody was wearing masks everywhere

01:53:11   face id didn't yet even have the option to work with a mask and so yeah we were and i wanted to

01:53:20   at the time when we were worried that you know you could die if you touched covid germs contactless

01:53:26   payment seemed more important than ever so i was trying to use apple pay even more than i usually

01:53:31   do but i had to i always have to type my contactless payment even when it works well you still have to

01:53:37   press the button that says no thanks that you don't want to give them your telephone number and

01:53:40   all this other crap before you get to do the contactless payment part so yeah yeah it turns

01:53:45   a quote-unquote contactless but what else anything else on the main agenda oh i know what i wanted to

01:53:50   tell you i wanted to tell you we have a new we have a new pc in the house did i said if you look

01:53:55   at the shared note i sent you you could see a picture of it is this a christmas present it is

01:54:01   but we decided that because he's only got a limited amount of time before he has to head back

01:54:08   to college that he could set it up early it came it arrived yesterday and it is it was nice because

01:54:15   if we have we have an ero household and i got the alert when he set it up it is a curious company

01:54:21   name and i don't know how you'd pronounce it i don't know if they pronounce it n-z-x-t but it

01:54:25   reminds me of course of next right one letter off it is a big black rectangle but my son's gaming pc

01:54:35   i think we've bought him the i think it was 20 christmas 2017 or maybe 2018 but five years is

01:54:41   pretty long in pc gaming so that was that's jonas's big gift for the year you could have told them

01:54:47   your college tuition is your gaming pc now yeah that i would like many gaming pcs i would like to

01:54:55   when he got his first gaming pc i'm gonna say i'm gonna i'll say 2018 i don't know maybe but it was

01:55:02   five or six years ago but it was also a christmas gift and i wanted him to because i don't know shit

01:55:09   about pcs i really don't i mean i guess i i know them in terms of the way i just know how computers

01:55:14   work but i mean i haven't used windows since i don't know i think the last version of windows

01:55:21   i ever actually used was windows 2000 i don't know it's been a long time i just have no interest in

01:55:28   that universe so i wanted him to do all the research i was like we'll get you a good gaming pc

01:55:34   but you have to give me you know you do the research tell me all the comp everything you want

01:55:39   and why and justify it and he how much of that do you think he did yeah he's your kid so not a lot

01:55:46   not a lot and so i got involved and i steered him toward a small smaller case from the company

01:55:57   his msi which makes a bunch of components for pcs but i steered him towards a smaller one

01:56:03   a smaller you thought the small one might be quieter you didn't know about pcs yet no i didn't

01:56:09   i thought maybe it would be louder actually because i realized space makes cooling better but

01:56:14   it probably was a bad decision because i remember i think i actually got help from you about this

01:56:20   remember his video card went bad did you paint yourself into a thermal corner i we painted

01:56:24   ourselves into a thermal corner so his first video card went bad it was probably a 3080 i guess would

01:56:32   that be right from 2017 or 18. no uh was it maybe it was a maybe i don't know it was a good video

01:56:40   card but it was a variant of it that was meant to fit in a smaller case and i think that was the

01:56:47   problem anyway the he ended up the pc worked when the video card went bad but it wasn't it was

01:56:54   only using like the built-in video but it was very just typical pc experience it wouldn't just show

01:57:01   an error it says your video card is toast it was it seemed like something we could troubleshoot

01:57:07   and we wasted a lot of time on it and we just had to replace it and the replacement we got was the

01:57:13   exact same nvidia number whatever the number is 40 whatever or 30 whatever but it was a different

01:57:20   you could because we had to take the old one out and look at the new one and you could see the

01:57:24   differences and specifically there were a lot of a lot of differences with the heat sink this time

01:57:30   he actually did do the work though he did configure everything he configured what brand to buy what

01:57:37   video card he personally wanted amd not intel for the cpu which i think is probably a fine decision

01:57:44   i think seems like a lot of gamers sort of feel that way there's the current state of the art so

01:57:50   he did everything that i wanted him to do the first time but this time he did it but and i told him you

01:57:57   probably shouldn't get it shouldn't get a small case but i said this is going to be a lot bigger

01:58:02   and he was like all right all right he's astonished by how big it is he can't believe it i and i'm

01:58:09   i can't believe that he can't believe it but i guess he just hasn't seen a lot of gaming pcs

01:58:15   because most of the people you just play online you don't see the other people's pcs this is a

01:58:20   pc that he he literally thinks he can't fit on his dorm desk oh yeah that's right if he's going to

01:58:26   take this back to school with him that's you should have more mac pros now so let them know

01:58:30   how big real computers are but actually this form factor of a case it's a tower style case it looks

01:58:34   like i mean i would say like it's an at tower but people don't or xt whatever actually those aren't

01:58:38   the right terms for towers never mind but it's almost as big as a what we used to call a full

01:58:42   height tower back in the day do you remember you ever see a full height tower pc back in like the

01:58:46   windows 95 windows 3.1 days they were so tall so huge they had spaces for five and a quarter inch

01:58:53   hard drives in them they were just monstrous but these days there is a form factor that i've seen

01:58:58   of gaming pcs that is like this tower but take two of these and put them side by side it's like

01:59:03   a more of a cube shape it is like the least efficient most space hogging designed for a

01:59:08   computer either so it's like as big and tall as a tower but twice as wide it's just a giant

01:59:14   sometimes they're made of like transparent materials like a giant cube like a huge cube

01:59:18   and you're like who has room for that literally anywhere you can't even put it under your desk

01:59:22   by your feet because it doesn't leave room for your feet it's so big in a dorm room i don't know

01:59:26   what they're gonna do with this but i mean it'll keep them warm in the boston winters i guess well

01:59:30   so he did not come home he did not come home with his gaming pc so last year he took his freshman

01:59:36   year he took his playstation 5 this year he left the playstation 5 here and took his gaming pc to

01:59:44   college so and he didn't bring it home for christmas because he only took a carry-on for the flight so

01:59:50   his current plan is to stop worrying about shipping this to college and just leave it at home for a

01:59:57   semester and then worry about next year yeah you'll drive it up in the rental van right i'll have to

02:00:02   i may have to get a u-haul for this thing it is very big i mean it's not bigger than mac pro sizes

02:00:07   it looks about no i guess not no i think it's probably about that size hopefully it's lighter

02:00:11   than a mac pro i've i have only owned one big desktop computer in my entire life i i had fresh

02:00:20   out of college so it was probably the summer of 1996 i bought a power mac 9600 350 which i used

02:00:31   the hell out of for oh man probably six seven years a long time never got to at the time they

02:00:41   were talking i think maybe it was 97 when i bought it because maybe they were already promises maybe

02:00:47   the next thing had already happened but they said it would run mac os 10 before it was called mac

02:00:53   os 10. is that around rhapsody yeah yeah rhapsody would run but it never did i was well g3 i think

02:00:59   you had to have a g3 to run mac os 10 and the power mac 9600 was 604 or something yeah i believe

02:01:08   i love that computer though man that was that was a good computer but man you get that computer what

02:01:14   job did you have that gave you enough money to buy that thing it was expensive i i got it after

02:01:20   i think i got it after it was discontinued or after maybe after the g3s had come out

02:01:26   and so i didn't buy it when it was the top of the line and it just come out but i knew enough to

02:01:32   know that it was better than like i i got it and i think it was like mac connection one of those one

02:01:38   of the catalogs and they just they had like a fire sale on it and i was like holy shit this is an

02:01:43   amazing deal right so i whatever i paid for it was far less than the original retail yet it was still

02:01:50   utterly relevant performance wise and lasted me without uh any complaint for years because it was

02:01:58   such a beast of a machine but i never again bought a desktop that's where you and i share so many so

02:02:07   much that you like that i like and i like that you like but our preference for computers could not be

02:02:12   more you don't even have a mac studio in the house somewhere nope well unless i have a review unit i

02:02:17   forgot to send back which is possible but i don't have one that i use i should that's what i should

02:02:22   do for my podcast setup instead of this yeah i mean yes the laptop is silly although actually

02:02:27   though i don't studio would be overkill though for my podcast setup a mac mini would be fine

02:02:32   i mean there are many yeah either way i was just like desktops that are less obtrusive now

02:02:36   i got my wife on a studio i think she likes it yeah no and i think i i have owned a mac mini

02:02:42   i forget what i bought one years ago so i i say desktop meaning yeah yeah case but boy this pc is

02:02:50   a beast do you have any piece you you don't what's the gaming situation with your kids no no pc is in

02:02:56   this household i've never i came real close years and years ago came really close to getting a

02:03:00   shuttle pc you know that company no i don't think so they make very small form factor pcs i think

02:03:07   sff was the small form factor they're they're kind of like shoe boxes right the idea is you get a pc

02:03:13   into it i mean it was it was also the days before video cards were so massive and took so much power

02:03:19   but back when you could actually fit a gaming video card in a slim shoebox size case without exotic

02:03:24   cooling because they were neat looking it was oh it's like a mac mini kind of like you you cram all

02:03:29   these components there you just pick the ones that you want it doesn't take up too much room in your

02:03:32   desk i'm like you know what i can get a gaming pc shove it off to the corner and use my same desk

02:03:35   and have a kvm these are all things that were possible when briefly there was an overlap between

02:03:41   pc hardware and mac hardware like they were both using vga connectors and they were both using

02:03:46   similar buses or you could you could get a kvkvm they could switch between them right but that

02:03:51   fever passed i never did actually buy it and then the world's diverged again and so no no gaming pcs

02:03:57   so i've got my playstation 5 which is what i do most of my gaming on on a gaming monitor

02:04:01   and i do play games on my mac it is still an intel mac i do have a big apple ridiculously expensive

02:04:07   apple video card in there i do have windows 10 on an ssd that i boot from and i can play windows

02:04:13   games and if any mac games gets it i could play them as well yeah how much of a factor is that

02:04:19   in your i mean and longtime listeners of atp know you held on to your previous mac pro for a

02:04:25   ridiculously long time absurdly long time comically long time while waiting for them to come out with

02:04:31   the next generation mac pro and then bought a very nice one for yourself but how much of your

02:04:37   still using the intel mac pro is based on the fact that you can game on it i mean it is kind of like

02:04:42   i kind of like i'm feeling like i'm saying goodbye you know what i mean because i know this is not

02:04:46   going to be the case for the next one so might as well write that and also i don't really feel

02:04:50   pressure to make this decision because apple's going to make it for me when they stop supporting

02:04:54   intel with mac os like that'll happen and whatever that happens i'll get an m4 mac studio or something

02:05:00   like unless they do something very different with the mac pro i'm no longer interested in that

02:05:04   machine because it doesn't give me any of the things that i want out of a machine that size

02:05:07   and price and i do like the mac studio i just hope you know who knows what the game situation

02:05:13   will be like by then but yeah i'm kind of enjoying this one while i have it because i know this will

02:05:17   be this is the end of an era there could be a new era someday i'm always rooting for this there's

02:05:22   not a lot of signs that it's happening we're always rooting for you know what microsoft and windows

02:05:26   should also come over to arm so that max could once again natively boot windows on i know windows

02:05:30   and arm exists but it's the the hegemony of x86 is still such that it's all it's got a long way to go

02:05:37   before like quote-unquote pc games are binaries that run natively in arm windows right do you

02:05:45   think i'm optimistic i know that and i don't want to rehash deep speculation about the future of

02:05:52   apple silicon but the idea is that the current mac pro with apple silicon just is not all that pro

02:06:01   really i mean compared to the mac studio right it kind of is a mac studio in a bigger case much

02:06:06   bigger case and because it's apple silicon there's not as much stuff that you can put in a case that

02:06:13   you could do on the intel like you said you've got some kind of monster what kind of gpu do you have

02:06:19   what i have the the pro vega 2 mpx module that apple sells that's one of the one of the great

02:06:24   things about this computer is the horrendously expensive video cards that apple sells are giant

02:06:29   and cost way too much money no fans on them right no fans just the biggest heat sink you've ever

02:06:34   seen in your life but no fans so by i at one point i had multiple gpu's in there at various points

02:06:40   none of those gpu's had fans in them adding another gpu would not increase the fan noise

02:06:45   unless heated them up so i love this machine for that but that is yeah yeah i feel like it

02:06:50   even though it's the the smallest selling by quantity mac that apple makes by definition of

02:06:57   it being super expensive and really only optimized for pros it also really was sort of exemplified

02:07:03   apple's design ideals versus the rest of the x86 makers if you wanted to see what would a pc look

02:07:10   like if apple made one like this machine this i don't know if you've seen i mean you have probably

02:07:14   one that oh yeah see whatever like the inside of this machine is immaculate yeah there are no wires

02:07:20   no it's not like the no visible wires like they hid them behind things there are no wires it's

02:07:25   like a work of art in there it really is and they're even the cards are even pretty they're

02:07:30   blue not green no yeah everything is beautiful and color matched and that's why you buy the apple

02:07:35   video card for 20 times the real price and it's like it has no fans it comes in this huge module

02:07:40   and it snaps in and it's got this proprietary connector the mpx module that gives you the

02:07:44   extra power so you don't have to have the extra power leads yeah i love that stuff i just it

02:07:49   pushes all my buttons i'm going to be sad when i get this replaced with a max studio which is

02:07:55   its own in its own right a cute little machine but not the cathedral to personal computers that this

02:08:00   thing is now when that when your intel mac pro shipped and fulfilling the promise of okay we've

02:08:06   completely rethought our approach to the pro market where we're coming back with pro max

02:08:12   we'll have a pro imac for you by the end of this year and then the next year they came out with

02:08:17   this they went no pulled no stops to show off to we in the media the internals they were they're

02:08:24   super proud of it but it's it exemplifies apple's design ideals way better than their laptops do

02:08:30   because a an intel macbook looks so much like an hp laptop because all the other companies that

02:08:39   make these aluminum laptops just copy what macbook airs look like and you don't see the inside of the

02:08:44   inside no apple and the inside of the apple laptops are in general better looking than the insides of

02:08:49   pc laptops but they're still kind of ugly because you got to cram everything in there it's like the

02:08:53   inside of an iphone you can't afford to make it pretty but when you've got as much space as in a

02:08:57   tower computer like it's gaming pc's obviously do this those are like little cathedrals to rgb

02:09:01   lights with their hard cooling tubes carefully arranged and everything but that's a whole

02:09:06   different aesthetic this is the apple aesthetic for a tower personal computer and it's just so

02:09:12   expensive and so low volume and so needless quote unquote needless like it doesn't make the computer

02:09:18   any faster but it makes it nicer it makes it more beautiful it makes it like a work of art this is i

02:09:22   do love this machine i'll miss it it and it's probably one of the last johnny i-visms i mean

02:09:30   because it's certainly the tail end of his time but the way that they hollowed out those circles

02:09:37   around the case and trust me they spent a lot of time talking to us in the media about how much

02:09:42   how much time it takes to to make one of those cases and now they've that it's apple silicon

02:09:47   it's just like a mac studio running inside this beautiful with a bunch of card slots it's just

02:09:52   just a desert in there right and i get it i know it's it for people with tremendous i/o needs it is

02:10:01   more pro than a mac studio so for there's video certainly like video production type people who

02:10:06   are pushing around 4k or even 8k video footage in which is enormous and you want lots of storage

02:10:13   inside it so if i/o is your problem the mac pro actually is a legit upgrade but only because the

02:10:20   next best thing has zero slots right because like the pci the pc a number of pci lanes and the

02:10:26   bandwidth available in the current mac pro is actually less than it was i mean it's not less

02:10:31   because it's a newer version of pci but it's not decked out oh you'll just a huge amount of

02:10:36   bandwidth it's better than zero cards so you take what you can get and you can put big honking things

02:10:42   inside there that you couldn't connect to a thunderbolt connector for example but it's not

02:10:46   even like they said okay well it's just the mac studio but we really went overboard with the with

02:10:51   the pci they didn't they just did sort of the minimum possible to get pci slots plus an m2 ultra

02:10:58   and it's kind of disappointing so i do think though my my takeaway from the introduction of

02:11:04   the m3 a couple months ago and the way that they've clearly rethought what the pro and the max are

02:11:14   compared to the regular where the pro is not just half of a max anymore right the max is sort of a

02:11:22   totally different thing the pro used to not be half of max the per used to be a max with some gpu cores

02:11:27   chopped off and that was right right that was and now it is it's a totally different system on a chip

02:11:32   much much different than something simplistic like that and i know that sounds simplistic but it

02:11:37   really was it was just the max with some gpu cores bend out but then that chopped off like physically

02:11:44   physically yeah is that because like if you believe apple's die shots you could overlay the

02:11:49   pro onto the max and you would see you would cover up all of the max except for the bottom part where

02:11:53   there was more gpu cores there was a project so what the ultimate is right now is the m2 ultra

02:12:02   and what there was a rumor that there would be like an ultra plus i don't know who they're

02:12:08   running out of adjectives but something that would be like two ultras together well that was the

02:12:13   original rumor with the m1 that you would get the you get the m1 and then you would get the m1 max

02:12:17   and you get the m1 ultra and then you get something that was essentially two m1 ultras or four m1 maxes

02:12:23   together what do you what would the adjective be what's more than ultra i think the that was the

02:12:28   jade 4c die i think that thing was canned before marketing got a chance to name any of these so

02:12:34   marketing was probably never faced with the problem of what are you going to call all these

02:12:39   with the quad one in there i think maybe that would have been ultra right yeah or extreme or

02:12:45   who knows yeah extreme apple's names are terrible well they're terrible but they're also funny and

02:12:51   what comes around goes around right i mean who knows they might still make now that they've gone

02:12:56   back to just apple books there might be an iBook again who knows yeah seemingly done keep waiting

02:13:01   they're seemingly done with the i prefix but who knows if they'll bring it back so they've made

02:13:06   extreme products before i they could do it again but it is funny because the one that makes me

02:13:11   laugh is max because max means max it's the maximum well and it also rhymes with max it also

02:13:18   rhymes with max so it's actually like i've all as soon as they named it i've said all the time it is

02:13:23   the worst product name ever for podcasting it works perfectly fine when you're in print and it

02:13:30   is the worst the max with the max chip is really just horrible to speak but the way that they've

02:13:38   clearly rethought the relationship of the different tiers at least in the macbook pros gives me more

02:13:45   optimism that they're not giving up on your professed goal which i agree with to just

02:13:51   it's it's a worthy goal even if the market is tiny to just make the fastest computer that anybody can

02:13:59   buy on the market or at least try to the way i always characterize it is right now in apple

02:14:04   silicon apple has given up trying to even compete in that high end if you think of the highest npc

02:14:11   cpu the highest npc gpu apple has nothing that is even trying to compete with it which is a shame

02:14:18   because it's not like they don't have the technology to do it but they're just not interested

02:14:21   in that market and they always used to at least try to compete at any time in the past you look

02:14:26   at apple's lines of computers they're fielding and you would say if you get the most expensive one it

02:14:30   is in the conversation with the most expensive pc with the most expensive graphics card or whatever

02:14:36   is it always the fastest that's obviously usually not the the best bang for the buck or whatever but

02:14:40   they were in the conversation and now it's like the ultra compared to a single top end nvidia

02:14:46   video card it's not really in the conversation well my son's goofy gaming pc upstairs probably

02:14:52   right yeah for sure you get a 40 90 versus the ultra it's not a contest i mean and i say goofy

02:14:58   it was like four thousand dollars so it's so almost as much as a good mac laptop yeah

02:15:05   almost as much as mine right but i do i have optimism that they haven't given up on that goal

02:15:12   and we just it just sucks for us being on the outside without ever hearing of their plans because

02:15:20   it there's something going on there where they're not just phoning it in on the above or on the

02:15:29   pattern of what is an m3 compared to an m2 they clearly rethought that so whether the m3

02:15:36   generation will be the one where the whatever the maximum that they can stick in the mac pro chassis

02:15:42   is i don't i i wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the year but maybe the m4 series will be i don't

02:15:47   know it seems we're talking about this on atp if you look at the m3 max chip like the dive shots

02:15:53   that apple gives you it looks very much like the m2 max and the m1 max in terms of where the crap

02:15:59   is arranged and we know with the m1 max and the m2 max the stuff was arranged so you could stick

02:16:03   another one to it end to end and make an ultra out of it because that's where they connect with

02:16:07   the silicon interposer and if you look at how the m2 max is laid out it's laid out so that you could

02:16:13   take another m2 max stick at the end and make an ultra and what we know about the the the previous

02:16:18   ones the m1 and the m2 is that they didn't have a way to connect four of them right and i think the

02:16:24   m3 max being end to end with another m3 max to make an m3 ultra is going to happen it will be

02:16:30   available in the max studio uh and they have no way to connect four of them and so if there is

02:16:35   going to be there if they're going to take a run at this i think it's going to have to wait at least

02:16:40   until the m4 and some of the vague rumors that i heard from my vague sources was like forget about

02:16:45   anything that's four of these things connected until past the m7 because that's how long these

02:16:50   roadmaps are and they kind of gave up on it right and i kind of understand that because it's look

02:16:54   why do we need to do that for every application realm that we care about you get acceptable

02:16:59   performance from an ultra and who cares if it's not in the conversation with the fastest nva

02:17:03   gaming card we don't care about that market anyway and we the frame rates you get are acceptable

02:17:09   and we're not used to we're never on a computer same thing with the gpu's you can buy that amd

02:17:13   i think the reason your son was interested in amd well probably not for gaming but amd offers

02:17:17   cpu's that have huge numbers of cores so does intel for that matter more than you more cores

02:17:21   than you can get an ultra that have higher multi-core scores than the ultra but apple

02:17:27   sample we don't need that none of the applications we care about would take enough advantage of that

02:17:31   for it to be worth the cost it's the bargain apple got for itself now that they make their own socs

02:17:35   now they make their own chips they can make just the chips they want until it comes time to make

02:17:40   the one for their top of the line products and they're like how much is it going to cost us to

02:17:44   make that and how many of those do we sell oh and it was kind of easier when intel could sell their

02:17:48   xeons to every like server farm in the world and apple could benefit from that and yeah they would

02:17:53   pay through the teeth for the profit margins on those intel xeons but they didn't have to pay for

02:17:57   the r and d for those xeons and intel paid for the rnd for those xeons so they could sell a million

02:18:02   of them to data centers and also by the way sell them to apple with a huge margin on them and it's

02:18:06   not like okay well now that we don't have to do that we don't have to pay intel's margins we can

02:18:10   make our own xeons oh that costs way too much money that costs way too much money for the

02:18:14   number of mac pros that we sell so i don't know how they square this i think they should do it

02:18:17   and just suck it up as the r and d center for like pushing the envelope and mac performance but i'm

02:18:23   not optimistic about re-engaging with the high end for many more years if they've even decided they

02:18:28   want to do it but of course we don't know if they've even decided they want to do it it's just

02:18:32   what we're hearing and what we're seeing externally is don't hold your breath for a long time yeah i

02:18:36   often trot out the analogy that and i think you have too that it's like consumer car brands making

02:18:43   race cars honda has a race car team yeah mercedes is just a giant money pit it is a money pit but

02:18:49   the other thing that the race cars at least have is at least they can justify it on marketing

02:18:54   grounds where people actually there are millions of races see the millions and millions of yeah

02:18:58   millions and millions of people around the world love to watch f1 racing and and it's a you know

02:19:03   it's sensation on netflix and so there's some you know you could justify it marketing wise nobody

02:19:08   no there are no thousands of fans waiting to watch john syracuse with the the m4 extreme yeah although

02:19:17   i mean there is an equivalent version of that kind of there's esports right and people know about

02:19:22   nvidia and they know about famous gamers and they know about streamers and there is a place to put

02:19:26   your name out in front of people as a high performance brand it's not the same as formula one

02:19:31   but that like the marketing and the image behind nvidia because of their dominance in gaming and

02:19:36   because of how popular gaming is in the mainstream media that is a thing unfortunately nvidia is not

02:19:41   really a consumer company that's also trying to sell you like iphones or whatever but right

02:19:44   yeah i could definitely make the case for apple to try to do this but it would be a

02:19:49   a apple style argument which is like long-term big picture don't think about short-term roi

02:19:57   like all the sort of touchy feely things the same reason they do all the environmental stuff and all

02:20:00   the other things they do but you can't make the argument for it as in do this now and at the end

02:20:05   of the year you'll make x amount of dollars because you won't all right and even with the

02:20:09   environmental stuff i kind of feel like you can say this actually is good for business because

02:20:16   it's long term yeah right well i and i definitely long term and i think the younger people are the

02:20:22   more they actually make their buying decisions based on stuff like that so i don't really i

02:20:28   don't i didn't look at the emissions of my macbook pro when i bought it but younger people do and

02:20:34   they care about it and knowing apple's trustworthy and saying what's their promise 2030 they're going

02:20:38   to be carbon neutral across the board uh yeah and yet still they haven't cancelled the car project

02:20:44   somehow i don't i don't understand that i mean i think you guys again i think you guys mentioned

02:20:49   that on atp that it seemed that it seems like impossible i don't i it could be the most most

02:20:55   energy efficient cars ever made but i don't see how you build and ship cars in a carbon neutral

02:21:00   way i but i guess that's neither here nor there the other thing i'm hopeful i do think i think

02:21:07   apple is in the way that all companies take on the personality of their founders and in for better or

02:21:14   for worse apple is and always will be in some ways steve jobs's company and he's a very spiteful man

02:21:21   i do think the fact that apple everybody knows does not like nvidia it can only help right it's

02:21:31   man it must bother them in some ways that a company they do not get along with kicks their

02:21:38   ass on gpu and happened there there was the whole thermal corner with the trash can but the whole

02:21:45   thing it's the way that apple 10 years ago with the trash can mac pro underestimated the next

02:21:53   decade of the importance in size of gpu's physical size it the whole ai thing and gpu as the more

02:22:02   important processor processing unit of all your pus in your computer the way that the gpu is

02:22:10   preeminent over the cpu now i would have never guessed it 20 years ago you'd think apple should

02:22:18   have been a position to guess it but they're so they're in their own little world where they didn't

02:22:23   but it must bother them now right so here they are today and i think it's clear and i know you

02:22:28   called me out i know i misspoke on certain details when the m3 came out about like the single highest

02:22:36   single threaded performance that you can pay you can throw enough money at intel or amd and maybe

02:22:41   beat the m3 not maybe yes definitely well you can and and like you said with the multi-core you can

02:22:49   get things from them with so many cores that of course the multi-core performance is going to win

02:22:54   because it's it's ginormous it's closer than you would think it is that's the frustrating thing

02:22:58   same thing with the gpu that that if you look at what apple does even with the ai stuff like

02:23:02   that recently they have those new recompiling libraries to take advantage of apple silicon

02:23:06   and neural engine they yeah their performance first of all their performance for a while is

02:23:09   amazing second of all the overall performance they're punching way above their weight class

02:23:13   the problem is there's this hulking monster that is seven times as big and it's oh apple if you

02:23:18   just made one that was twice as big as you have now you could compete because what you're doing

02:23:23   with what you got is amazing but nvidia is like this takes 500 watts and fills it's bigger than

02:23:28   an entire max studio and costs 1500 and we're they're winning by brute force right it's like

02:23:35   they're an nvidia is asking you how close do you live to your power station right like it's we're

02:23:39   not you know you don't have to do things the nvidia way like and that must be frustrating

02:23:43   to people involved because they're like we have the technology we have if we just doubled the

02:23:48   number of gpu cores extrapolate linearly from our performance now but but no we don't have a way to

02:23:54   package that and in an soc right i i do think it's fair to say again i misspoke on certain technical

02:24:00   details and you were you as usual were correct on those details but i think apple can rightly say

02:24:06   can rightly hold itself up and say we are the preeminent cpu designers in the world today our

02:24:12   cpu's maybe our top single threaded score isn't the best it's not and maybe we can get beat on

02:24:19   multi-core for whatever but we're good on cpu's we feel they're good at it i don't know if they

02:24:24   could say the preeminent they're very good at it but based on their priorities they are the

02:24:28   best yeah whereas they even by their own priorities they cannot possibly say that they're the best gpu

02:24:34   makers well you have to ask what their priorities are because they're like well everything we need

02:24:37   to do with our gpu's we find that the m3 ultra will it was acceptable and everything is okay

02:24:43   but what if you want to play a high-end game with the maximum frame rate so we don't want to do that

02:24:47   we or they could be like rolls royce we think 60 frames per second is adequate

02:24:51   and gamers are like i need 240 frames per second now right it it's it's just you just know that

02:24:58   they're they're wrong they're behind on this when you're saying well it's the apple thing and the

02:25:04   most frames per second the frame rate doesn't matter we don't even sell displays that have

02:25:08   that refresh rate anyway that's that is not the apple way saying that frame rate doesn't matter

02:25:12   right the company that first went to retina for resolution the company that had the smooth still

02:25:19   has by far the smoothest scrolling on phones i don't know i'm sitting in front of a very

02:25:23   expensive apple monitor that refreshes 60 hertz so well it's you should just do all your computing

02:25:31   on a phone or a laptop screen only 120 like 240 hertz exists right well anyway they've and again

02:25:40   it's good for apple to be behind somewhere i think i mean i think one of the as a fan of the company

02:25:47   and a fan of their ideals and the priorities that they have it's been good to see them succeed but

02:25:54   when there's when the second place competitor in factor x that you care about is so far behind

02:26:01   it's easy to get lazy and it's so it's good to see them behind on gpu's but it is an open question

02:26:08   whether they care because the market for the number of people who who want to pay thousands

02:26:14   and thousands of dollars for the gpu to put in their mac pro is so small i don't know but i'm

02:26:22   at least talking to one of them right yeah no i mean so the thing is with the end of the intel

02:26:28   era the question is if you had an arm mac with an nvda class gpu what would you play on it what kind

02:26:34   of games would you play where would you get the games from that you play on that because if you're

02:26:38   thinking you're going to play windows games those don't run natively on arm right and so are you

02:26:43   going to play the the plethora of mac native games it's not really a lot of those out there either so

02:26:48   it's a difficult situation and that's i and that just it's a self-fulfilling prophecy if apple

02:26:53   doesn't serve this market it doesn't make computers to do it people won't make games

02:26:56   for it and it's a spiral that goes downward and that's kind of what we're caught in right now

02:26:59   do you i do think as a final point i do think apple is at a very high level more interested in

02:27:09   the fixing this question of mac gaming than they have been i think ever really now i don't know

02:27:16   that not ever don't you remember game sprockets and input sprockets oh yeah that was way they

02:27:21   were making libraries and quick draw 3d not sprite kit quickdraw 3d input sprockets like that whole

02:27:29   thing they had all these libraries where they're going to make it easier to make mac native games

02:27:32   and a whole department doing it it was also equally misguided and terrible but that showed

02:27:37   them that was the most interest i think they ever had i mean they made the pippin game console for

02:27:40   crying out loud also completely misguided but that was their peak of interest you're right that

02:27:47   currently they are more interested than they have been have been in the past i don't know decade or

02:27:52   so but they're not at input sprockets and quickdraw 3d level yet the argument i've heard from people

02:28:00   at apple which i can't quote but probably i'm not even supposed to paraphrase but in an off the

02:28:06   record briefings but the argument from them and i do find part of this true now whether this will

02:28:10   actually lead to anything or not but my question this was when the m3s came out a couple months

02:28:18   ago in the macbooks and they had stuff to talk they didn't spend a lot of time talking about

02:28:22   games but they mentioned it but i my question was framed along the lines of you guys are talking

02:28:29   about games and the game the future of this is better but isn't it counterintuitive that you're

02:28:34   saying gaming is better on apple silicon than when the mac was on x86 which is the platform

02:28:41   that all the games are written for and their answer was that they thought basically the one of

02:28:49   one of if not the single biggest problem mac gaming has faced is the size of the addressable

02:28:54   market and that when the mac was on intel that whole era the addressable market for serious

02:29:02   gaming on mac was just a tiny subset of the mac market because so many macs were running were

02:29:11   laptops running on the shitty intel integrated graphics which are just terrible and so that the

02:29:18   addressable market for max that might be reasonable to run a game at a pretty good resolution at a

02:29:26   really good frame rate is way bigger in the apple silicon era than it ever was going to be on the

02:29:31   intel era and that they think that will get the attention of game makers i mean they're right up

02:29:36   to the point where they have the conclusion and therefore we will now succeed where we've really

02:29:40   failed it is true that they have raised the bar but like gaming very much like we mentioned the

02:29:44   formula one gaming is very much a market where even if most people don't have the high-end card

02:29:49   because it's expensive and you can't even get them it is aspirational and so you have to have

02:29:54   you have to have the high-end card available even though most gamers are going to have the two steps

02:29:58   down last year's model in their gaming pcs and there's just so many other problems they need to

02:30:03   address like it is they have we've talked about this in atp the floor for gaming performance on

02:30:07   max is higher than it has ever been because even the cheapest crappiest exact you get has better

02:30:13   but that is that is just one tiny thing you need to address but there's so much more just so much

02:30:18   more i mean think of it this way if you could make 100 of the current mac installed base any cpu

02:30:25   intel max arm any mac that anyone is using anywhere on the planet suddenly those things

02:30:30   have adequate performance to play games still a that might not be enough people to make a dent

02:30:36   and b do the people who have those computers even think of the idea of playing a game on them

02:30:44   and then see if they had that thought where would they find that game because all their friends are

02:30:47   playing in certain name of game x would it occur to them to get it oh go you can play that on your

02:30:53   mac how do i get it on my mac where do i buy it from is it available for a mac and the answer is

02:30:56   no you can't it's not available for the mac for use from apple will show a keynote where you can

02:31:01   play a game that all your friends played four years ago running at reasonable frame rates on

02:31:05   your mac but that's not they're so far from success in this market and it's going to take

02:31:10   so much for them to get there i what they're doing is they're not wrong that they did a good thing

02:31:14   it is better than it was but this is such a huge mountain for them to climb and they're just really

02:31:21   taking baby steps up the foothills of it right and apple arcade is really a sort of iphone first yeah

02:31:29   that's a whole different thing for what it is apple arcade i think is doing what it has to do

02:31:33   and serving its purpose but that is very different than the quote-unquote pc gaming market right we're

02:31:37   not out here trying to convince apple they need to be interested in the pc gaming market they have

02:31:41   apparently convinced themselves that they're interested in the quote-unquote pc gaming market

02:31:45   they just have absolutely no idea how to get from where they are to be competitive in the pc gaming

02:31:51   market and so they're doing some things that are moves in the right direction but what a hill to

02:31:56   climb for them and a cultural more than technical really i mean ultimately yeah you can't you can't

02:32:03   really have i mean i always use microsoft as the example of this like surely there are people in

02:32:07   apple there that really are for this right just like it at microsoft there was a small group of

02:32:12   people who said we should totally make a game console and i'm sure there were tons of people

02:32:17   microsoft has said no we should not make a game console but the people who wanted to make xbox

02:32:22   eventually made a go of it and even if there are still naysayers inside the organization there is

02:32:28   no doubt within the xbox organization that those people who are working on the xbox are like this

02:32:33   is a thing we want to do and they microsoft spent billions of dollars in many years and worked so

02:32:39   hard to essentially be the second place or possibly third place in in that market but you can't no one

02:32:45   denies that microsoft is a player in the game console market right and that is a thing that

02:32:50   they made happen a small group of people happen despite an organization that was somewhat hostile

02:32:54   to them within apple i feel like the group of people who want to do this is smaller and so much

02:32:59   more of the organization is hostile either unknowingly hostile because they have bad ideas

02:33:03   about how to achieve it or knowingly hostile and they say we should not be doing this at all it's

02:33:07   stupid right and they're not going to it doesn't almost it's the person who maybe should be if they

02:33:13   wanted to most involved wouldn't be like suruji or turnis or somebody or even fedorigi don't say

02:33:20   any q i was gonna say eddie q i know you're gonna to to do for games what he did for video content

02:33:28   for shows i mean i get what you're getting at what you need is someone who knows how to make deals and

02:33:32   do business stuff and how to throw money around right yeah you need but you also need someone

02:33:36   who knows the gaming industry if you look at the people who made the xbox happen in microsoft they

02:33:40   all you have to have game industry inside kind of like when apple made tv shows they didn't hire

02:33:44   people who like they hired people who knew how to make tv shows they found hey who's who's good at

02:33:48   producing television and movie content right but they didn't say they report to eddie q so it

02:33:53   wouldn't be eddie you know it'd be eddie as in a way for content eddie q is sort of like a ceo

02:34:00   within apple right he's like ceo of the content services and i think he's very good at it and i

02:34:06   think in a very humble way i think in a very humble way they went out and they hired people

02:34:12   x hbo people to run to to have that expertise and he said it's like people never go back i do the

02:34:20   claim chowder bit but there were all this stuff before apple tv came out and their first two shows

02:34:27   like literally carpool karaoke and then there was the one that was planet of the apps planet of the

02:34:32   apps right it was like what's that shark shark tank yeah not an auspicious start right it was

02:34:37   well it was worse than carpool karaoke but those didn't exemplify what apple tv plus is all about

02:34:45   right and before tv plus came out there were a couple of stories that like hey apple is meddling

02:34:50   with these people they're telling them tim cook's telling them to take out the dirty words and they

02:34:55   didn't like the gang violence into one show and they want everything to be nice and they're

02:35:00   sending these awful notes and that people in hollywood hate it and this is going to be a

02:35:05   disaster and then it turned out not to be true their shows are great i mean i think pound for

02:35:11   pound arguably the highest quality of any streaming service and without question one of the highest

02:35:18   average qualities of original content and you don't see those stories anymore you actually i've

02:35:24   seen well you got the john stewart story right yeah but i had you heard you i talked about this

02:35:30   i guess with ben but yeah i mean so here's the thing i meddling with the content is not the thing

02:35:35   that we're worried about because think of nintendo nintendo famously it was like no no blood on our

02:35:40   consoles we don't want this type right it doesn't matter as long as you make good games right it

02:35:44   doesn't matter as long as you make good shows it's fine to have an ethos and enforce it and say this

02:35:49   is the kind of movies you want these are the kind of movies we don't there is room for you to be a

02:35:52   pixar pixar doesn't make every kind of movie in the world they make a certain kind of movie that

02:35:57   fits with their studio that's fine the problem is are you going to find the people who know how to

02:36:02   make a good movie period you can set the boundaries we want our movies to be this kind of movie for

02:36:06   these audiences with this kind of subject matter we don't want to anger china like whatever you

02:36:10   want to do fine there's plenty of people making entertainment you don't have to be all things to

02:36:13   all people but you do have to do and i guess you're right that eddie q did have the wisdom

02:36:17   to say hey you know who we should hire to make movies and tv shows people who know how to make

02:36:21   movies and tv shows yeah but they have thus far not done not said you know what we should do to

02:36:26   make the mac into a gaming platform and i this is an atp i think the big barrier is probably

02:36:31   that in order to make the mac into a good gaming platform not only do you need to hire people who

02:36:37   know the game industry to do all like the schmoozing and the deals and finding which

02:36:40   studio you're gonna buy which exclusives you're gonna get but unfortunately to make the mac a

02:36:45   good gaming platform you also have to talk to the people who run the mac and get them to do things

02:36:52   for you so you're going to come to c-fed or whoever else is controlling this internist or whatever and

02:36:56   say oh and by the way as part of this initiative way over here at eddie q's organization we need

02:37:01   you to do this to the hardware and this to the software and it's a top priority they're going

02:37:04   to be like whoa whoa whoa you don't control what goes into the mac you're over there in eddie's

02:37:09   org we decide what goes into the mac you're like but you don't understand for me to pull off my job

02:37:13   to do it with apple tv you don't have to have a lot of influence on the apple tv team you're just

02:37:17   gonna be able to show freaking video right right right but to do it on the mac suddenly now you're

02:37:21   interfacing with organizations in apple that are massively entrenched they do not want you telling

02:37:26   them what they need to do the silicon organization the mac the mac operating system and none of those

02:37:32   organizations want this fledgling gaming is apple tv came and told the mac team they had to change

02:37:38   everything about what they were doing to help the apple tv effort we don't even know if your thing

02:37:42   is to succeed i'm not changing the silicon we're planning seven years from now for this i'm not

02:37:46   changing i'm not putting open gl back into my operating system you don't make those decisions

02:37:50   and that is one of the many institutional barriers that's keeping apple away from being decent at

02:37:55   games yeah it's a good point that basically they could go all in with tv plus and needed no buy-in

02:38:04   from the software or hardware didn't have to tell them what to do just give us a streaming box it's

02:38:09   not too complicated can you play video it truly was a pure content play and doing that with gaming

02:38:15   would not be gaming it would require hardware and software and only apple but maybe that's the way

02:38:22   you sell it to convince tim cook that only apple could do it or tim apple as some people call him

02:38:28   anyway that's got to be about it it's getting close to christmas

02:38:32   john i do not have you on the show often enough because i work myself up and i think when

02:38:39   syracuse is on the show it's got it i got to bring i got to bring my a-game and then i get

02:38:43   too worked up about it and then all of a sudden years go by and you're not here well you should

02:38:47   bring your a-game well i need to you're you're because you know you're doing 15 minutes with

02:38:52   ben all the time you just gotta think of me like that i'm just like it's just like ben it's like

02:38:56   anytime you could just stop it and chat but yeah i do have my own tech podcast so you gotta fit me

02:39:01   into the schedule that way i do you've also got what else you have you want to pimp you've got

02:39:05   reconcilable differences with uh merlin you haven't had merlin on ages see that's another

02:39:11   one i gotta gear up i gotta gear up that's a different kind of show yeah it's a different

02:39:15   kind of show and it's a different kind of gearing up but i should have him on i mean you put in a

02:39:19   good word for me and see if you can get him to agree to it what else anything else robot or not

02:39:24   on the incomparable have you ever listened to robot or not you probably haven't i actually i

02:39:28   honestly have never listened to an episode of it's it's very it was very much like dithering before

02:39:32   dithering well it's not 15 minutes will you do like five minute two minute episodes three minute

02:39:36   episodes these little bite-sized thingies if you start from the beginning you'll get the idea of

02:39:41   the show but like super short like tiny nuggets and me being me occasionally we'd have a little

02:39:45   bit longer one that goes for 10 minutes or whatever but it's fun i know the problem i

02:39:49   know the problem yeah do that with jason snell over on the incomparable yeah and speaking of

02:39:54   jason snell you you subbed in for uh mr mike hurley and either the most recent or the most

02:40:00   recent episode that i listened to of upgrade which was a real treat yeah he's being he's becoming

02:40:04   like uh who is it um terry gross on fresh air that she's not there half the time mike yeah appears he

02:40:10   had a whole bunch of subguests coming in to to take up the mike slot he's backing up well that

02:40:15   was like uh carson at the end of his career on the yeah it doesn't come in on thursdays yeah you know

02:40:20   carson by the end was doing like three shows he was like doing like tuesday wednesday thursday

02:40:24   he had a guest host on monday and a rerun on fridays yeah i remember they were like inducting

02:40:29   him into the tv hall of fame or something and letterman gave the speech and he said

02:40:33   the backbreaking three day a week schedule and literally it was like people just died because

02:40:39   carson was like right next to him on the ds and nobody laughed harder than him but yeah that's

02:40:44   sort of snow that was really funny well you said there was something i wanted to say about that

02:40:48   upgrade but they made me do video that they're ruining the dream of podcasting just like you are

02:40:54   yeah maybe all i wrote down is consistency is key oh that's it that's it consistency is key you and

02:41:02   jason were talking and giving advice to like up and coming podcasters and about the importance of

02:41:08   a consistent publishing schedule and talking about the really staggering run atps had of one episode

02:41:17   a week every week for i i don't for over 10 years we do 52 shows a year for over 10 years haven't

02:41:23   missed one yet right they never haven't missed one yet and your bastards are sneaking in members only

02:41:29   episodes in addition that's right which is which i literally do consider to be a backbreaking schedule

02:41:35   which is it's not that bad whereas the talk show schedule is not quite as regimented no well that's

02:41:42   what i'm saying who knows how successful hey when you said you were gonna do dithering you do three

02:41:47   shows a week i'm like there's no way he's gonna be able to do that like how many talk shows but

02:41:49   you've been doing it i guess ben is a well we did switch to two episodes a week oh that's right

02:41:54   even so you're doing i'm proud i'm proud of you for and you can't pre-tape the dithering really

02:42:00   because they're like about current events and stuff so you're actually doing them like two

02:42:04   times a week it's not like you're banking seven of the episodes and then going off to vegas

02:42:07   nope and ben travels more than i do and when ben travels he has to travel literally around the

02:42:12   globe exactly he's going to work like a taiwan to wisconsin right so there are times where the

02:42:18   dithering schedule and again and ben is a very nice friend and gracious partner but you know he's

02:42:25   like can you do the morning on thursday and i'm like well where are you going to be and he's like

02:42:29   i'm going to be coming off a 17-hour flight from and i'm like oh yeah i'll wake up for this i'll do

02:42:34   it really guilt tripping you into waking up before noon right but he's recording from a hotel after a

02:42:40   17-hour flight he's recording from his like his is a covid lock there aren't even covid lockdown

02:42:45   and like oh yeah they're pushing his food under the door or whatever he's doing those are my

02:42:50   favorite episodes yeah he was in some kind of taiwanese prison for me exactly i came back into

02:42:55   the that's the show i want to be on i know dithering doesn't have guests but i'll be like

02:42:58   every email in your inbox and say you should have me as a guest on dithering even though it's a

02:43:02   podcast that doesn't have any guests because i just want to argue with ben about things you'd

02:43:05   be at the top of my list for a suggested substitute we don't even have to tell anybody really i don't

02:43:10   know that anybody would notice oh they would notice he could he'd just address you as john

02:43:15   and there'd be a lot more arguing anyway i will also i thank you for your time i thank you for

02:43:21   the excellent podcast you do that i do listen to and i will thank the sponsors of this episode

02:43:26   are good friends at squarespace nuts.com and trade coffee thank you john thank you