Under the Radar

Pillar I: Acquisition


00:00:00   Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment.

00:00:05   And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is usually not longer than 30 minutes. So let's get started.

00:00:30   to be a bit more introspective to just sort of decide what you're going to do in the new

00:00:35   year. The calendar year is my accounting year and so while that doesn't mean anything, you

00:00:40   know meaningfully, it's also useful for me to look back at the last year in a more holistic

00:00:44   way, see what worked, what didn't, you know, where the business side, my income came from,

00:00:50   where it went up, where it went down. But as part of that, it seemed potentially a useful

00:00:55   time also to do kind of a like a back to basics series here on the show to talk about some

00:01:02   of the fundamental aspects of being a successful independent iOS developer. Like, you know,

00:01:07   in our little intro, we always talk about, you know, the aspects of independent iOS development.

00:01:12   And I think fundamentally, there's some aspects of that that are important to understand.

00:01:17   And I don't want to assume that everyone who listens to this show sort of knows these things

00:01:22   that I think I've been doing this long enough, you've been doing this long enough, Marco,

00:01:25   that we I think have a fairly reasonable handle on them, but they're like important. And then

00:01:29   also, the reason I this has been top of mind for me is the sense of, I need to make sure

00:01:34   that if I want to have a successful indie app business, that I'm continuing to execute

00:01:39   on these topics in a good way and not just assume that I am because I had in the past

00:01:44   or that the market hasn't changed, or whatever. And when I think about them, like the three

00:01:49   main pillars that I could come up with for having a successful app, our acquisition,

00:01:55   conversion and retention. And I think we're probably going to this is going to be like

00:01:59   a three part series where we unpack each of those over the course of a different episode.

00:02:03   But I think at its core, like having a successful app business is about acquiring customers,

00:02:10   converting those customers somehow in sort of some form of monetization, whether that's

00:02:15   making them subscribers, showing them ads, getting them to have an app, you know, buy

00:02:20   things inside your app, whatever that conversion means for you the actual like turning a customer's

00:02:25   time in your app into income. And then retention is having that then persist into the future.

00:02:31   And if you don't have those three things, if you can't acquire customers, if you can't

00:02:35   make money from the customers you have, and you can't keep the customers you have, you're

00:02:38   not going to have a successful business. And so I think kind of working through each of

00:02:42   those three aspects seems like a good place to start the year off, make sure we're all

00:02:46   kind of heading in a direction that will hopefully lead to a successful 2024.

00:02:49   Yeah, I think this is a good place for us to always your visit. Because if you haven't

00:02:55   put anything out there in the App Store before, you know, you haven't run a business like

00:02:58   this before, you might think that the more technical aspects of app development are the

00:03:05   most important in some way, like, oh, you know, what's the most important thing for

00:03:07   the app you're making? Oh, you're gonna, are you gonna write it in Swift UI? Like, that's

00:03:11   important to some things. But you can make the most amazing app technically, and it can

00:03:17   totally flop because you didn't have the business stuff, you know, right.

00:03:21   One of the things that can define whether you are financially successful as an indie

00:03:28   developer is how you choose what to work on, and then how you support it with these business

00:03:33   aspects, you know, around what you have built. You can write an app in the worst language

00:03:38   in the world using crappy UI frameworks and, you know, have it be like this whole non-native

00:03:44   whatever, all these things that we kind of frown upon as developers. And if you do have

00:03:49   the business chops around, you can make almost any technical pile of crap succeed, as you

00:03:54   can tell by looking around the App Store and seeing what succeeds. So anyway, so that's

00:03:59   why this stuff is so important, that ideally as developers we want the amount of work and

00:04:04   interest that we put into something, we want that to reflect, to be reflected in how well

00:04:09   it does financially for us. But that's often, so often not the case.

00:04:15   So anyway, acquisition. This is a great place to start because when you're talking about

00:04:19   customer acquisition, I think you first have to ask yourself, are you building something

00:04:24   that a non-trivial number of people will even want? You know, before you can even think

00:04:29   about how you're going to get them to discover it somehow, there's a huge question of like,

00:04:36   do people actually want this? Is this compelling to some group of people? And then you have

00:04:42   to worry about how you find them and how you get them to look at your thing and pick your

00:04:46   thing. But number one is like, what are you building? And is there a market for that?

00:04:51   And then how do you stack up in that market? And this is why I've told this story a million

00:04:56   times, but I think it's important. When I was making Overcast, the first thing I did

00:05:01   was make a giant note document of like, here's my biggest competitors in this market. Here

00:05:08   are why people choose them. And then here are the plans I have for the app I'm going

00:05:14   to make. Here's why people will choose my app over these other apps. And that was very

00:05:20   clarifying for me because that helped me like realize, okay, what am I up against? How are

00:05:25   people going to find me? And when they do find me, what would make them choose me over

00:05:31   my competitors? And those like, those are all huge topics. And hopefully we'll get to

00:05:37   some of those. But I think number one that you have to you have to consider first when

00:05:41   you're making an app is like, who is this for? And am I doing something that there will

00:05:47   be any demand for?

00:05:49   Yeah, because I think intrinsic in that question, it's like the classic thought of like, what's

00:05:53   the pitch, right? Like, what is, if you have to summarize your application in, you know,

00:05:59   one sentence, what is that? And a you need to understand what that is, which is important

00:06:04   for the technical and like knowing what you're building in the first place. But two is being

00:06:09   honest with yourself of based on that description. How meaningful of a differentiation is that

00:06:15   from other apps that exist? How likely is that to be an attractive hook as you're trying

00:06:20   to be, you know, you show that to a potential customer, how is that likely to be an attractive

00:06:27   thing to them. And the more niche your pitch is, the important thing to understand there

00:06:32   is that necessarily will make it harder to acquire more users. And conversely, the slightly

00:06:39   awkward thing is the more general your pitches to the harder it will be to acquire new customers

00:06:44   as well. Like there's a sweet spot in between very general and very niche, where you can

00:06:51   have sort of the best leverage for acquisition, I would say, where you have this, you have

00:06:57   a interesting hook that's different and unique. But it's you not unique in the sense of it's

00:07:02   narrow, it's unique in the sense of it's compelling to a large audience. But it isn't just some

00:07:08   like just to just another to do list, right? It's like, if you're making a to do list app,

00:07:12   you need to have some thing about what you're doing, that is broadly applicable and desirable,

00:07:18   but is not so specific that it cuts off lots of users. And so like, that is a challenging

00:07:25   thing. And I think it's great to start there, the acquisition sort of thinking there. Because

00:07:31   if you don't have a compelling product to sell, you will never be able to sell it. And

00:07:36   it's easy, I think, sometimes to focus on the interesting technical sides of developing

00:07:40   an app, or you think you're doing something very cool, and very cool can mean, like, awesome,

00:07:47   amazing, super technically interesting, or groundbreaking in lots of ways, doesn't necessarily

00:07:52   mean that there's a market for it doesn't necessarily mean that sort of just because

00:07:56   you build something amazing, lots of people are going to want to use it on a day to day

00:08:00   basis regularly, like that's just, you know, are you solving a problem that people have,

00:08:07   and that people are going to continue to have. And that is, you know, something that's important.

00:08:12   And obviously, like, there's so many specifics in this. And I mean, we've been doing under

00:08:16   the radar for years at this point, this is like Episode 284. So clearly, there's lots

00:08:21   of nuance to this, but just broadly, for whatever the circumstance that you are find yourself

00:08:26   in, it's like, understand, fundamentally, am I making a compelling product that will

00:08:31   be desirable to lots of people, and you need to refine your idea? Or even if you have an

00:08:39   existing product, it's like, how are you marketing it is going to be filtered through what are

00:08:44   the things about what are the aspects of this that are desirable to the broadest number

00:08:48   of people that you can then go and work on acquiring to be your users?

00:08:53   Yeah, because like, no one cares how you solve the problem. And no one cares how long it

00:09:00   took you. Which is, these are hard things to hear for a lot of people, especially, you

00:09:05   know, programmers like us, like, we take a lot of pride in how we do things. And it gives

00:09:09   us great satisfaction, like, that we can do things in certain ways, but your customers

00:09:14   won't care. And the amount of work you put into something is not necessarily, you know,

00:09:21   going to result in, you know, the amount of success you get out of it. So, you know, you

00:09:25   have to find markets that actually exist and that you can compete in. And that's why, again,

00:09:30   you look at the App Store. Look at what succeeds in the App Store. You know, there's all the

00:09:34   big company apps, they succeed for their own reasons. And then you look at what succeeds

00:09:38   from small developers, and a lot of times, it's like this thing that, you know, crops

00:09:42   photos for Instagram or whatever. Like, you know, it's something that does something that

00:09:46   is a fairly mundane thing that just happens to resonate with a huge number of people who

00:09:53   have a problem they want to be solved. And it doesn't really matter how it does it. It

00:09:56   doesn't really matter if it's like a crappily made app with a $3 a week subscription. Like,

00:10:01   you know, that stuff doesn't matter to success, largely. What matters is, are you making something

00:10:08   where there is a market? Can you then have the market find your app? So, that's where

00:10:14   acquisition comes in. But there has to be a market first. And if there is a lot of demand

00:10:19   for the kind of thing you are making, everything about acquisition becomes much easier and

00:10:25   possibly much cheaper for you. So, there's a huge upside to the business as well. Like,

00:10:30   you know, most, ideally, you don't have to do much marketing or advertising at all, because

00:10:35   those things are expensive and time consuming and complicated. And if there's a lot of demand

00:10:39   for your app, and there's not a lot of other things serving that demand, your app will

00:10:44   mostly market itself. You won't have to worry too much about this. But most of us aren't

00:10:47   that lucky. Most of us have to worry somewhat about how the heck we get people to learn

00:10:52   about our app. So, that's what we're talking about for the rest of this episode. But first,

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00:13:14   So, how do you acquire customers?

00:13:18   Yes, it's like that is the crux. And I think there are probably broadly, when I was thinking

00:13:23   about this, like three ways to get a customer. There's the sort of press/Apple featured

00:13:31   promotion, kind of the editorial, I guess you could say, an editorial acquisition where

00:13:37   there is someone who's writing an article in the App Store on a website somewhere in

00:13:41   the world that is sort of like sending that out and promoting your application or mentioning

00:13:46   it in some way. You can acquire customers that way. There's the kind of organic word

00:13:52   of mouth version of acquisition, which is one of your users is the person who is spreading

00:13:59   the word about your application to someone in their family, someone in their friends,

00:14:04   whatever that is. And then the last one is sort of the paid version of that. So that's

00:14:09   I'm the one who's promoting my application by spending money to have it show up in a

00:14:14   variety of places, like say something like search ads in the App Store or it could be

00:14:19   Facebook ads, it could be ads anywhere.

00:14:21   Podcast ads, hey.

00:14:22   Podcast ads, sure. I mean, anywhere that you're paying. So essentially acquisition, those

00:14:28   three different channels. The question is, who's the person who's doing the promotion?

00:14:33   Is it an editorial voice? Is it your customer voice? Is it your voice? Like one of those

00:14:39   three is going to be the person who's actually going to sort of understand that. And I think

00:14:44   the key thing that it took me a long time to understand is with each of those things,

00:14:49   there is a different like shelf life to the acquisition that it'll actually be sort of

00:14:56   relevant for and obviously a very different cost and sort of reliability that goes along

00:15:02   with it.

00:15:03   So in the first one, in the like the editorial version of acquisition, typically these only

00:15:07   happen around big updates to your application, certainly on the press side. And the impact

00:15:15   they can have is shockingly small. Like it's one of those things where you would like to

00:15:22   think that it would make a big deal to be mentioned in some big publication or on a

00:15:26   cool website or even be featured by Apple in the App Store. And in my experience, it

00:15:31   certainly is something. I'm not saying it's nothing, but it is short lived and often very

00:15:36   disproportionate to the size of the audience of that publication. Like I remember, this

00:15:43   is many years ago now, but I was one of my apps was like listed fairly prominently in

00:15:47   an article in the New York Times, which was amazing. Like I still have a copy of that,

00:15:52   you know, like that newspaper, you know, in a drawer in my desk, because it was an amazing,

00:15:56   super cool, like I've arrived moment. And as far as I could tell, it drove no downloads

00:16:01   to the application whatsoever. Like, as far as I could tell, like there was no bump in

00:16:06   if you look at my sales chart, versus the week before and the week after when that article

00:16:10   came out, like it didn't seem to do anything. And like, that's fine in some ways. But it's

00:16:15   also like, is was that was clarifying for me of just because someone who has some audience

00:16:22   is talking about your application doesn't mean they're speaking to the audience who

00:16:26   wants your application. And I think that was something that was very helpful for me to

00:16:32   understand because, like, if I you know, I make a step counting app, if some kind of

00:16:37   health and fitness influencer, journalist, whatever it is, talks about that app, it's

00:16:43   gonna have way more impact than if that app is mentioned, as part of just like a, you

00:16:50   know, a generic article on the front of the New York Times. Like, it's the specificity

00:16:56   of that and the ability for it then to reach the actual person who's going to be interested

00:17:01   in downloading your app is so important. And so I don't tend at this point, to put too

00:17:06   much weight into those kinds of kind of editorial things that are lovely when they're happy

00:17:11   with the application. You know, when people have the press reach out, I tend to be responsive

00:17:14   to them. But it's not something that you can really rely on, on actually making a big

00:17:19   deal. Like, it's useful, like, if you're launching a brand new app, reach out to all

00:17:22   the press, reach out as much as you can, because any exposure you can get is useful. But really,

00:17:28   from a sustainable perspective, this is not something that will create sort of a sustainable

00:17:33   source of downloads for your applications.

00:17:35   Jared Ranerex Yeah, that this has been my experience as

00:17:37   well that, you know, you have to, and you touched on this a little bit already, but

00:17:41   you have to consider the mode that people are in when they are like reading whatever

00:17:48   the press is, or consuming the press. Like, when's the last time you, as a person, were

00:17:54   reading a newspaper or website article about, you know, here's 15 productivity apps for

00:18:00   the help you in the new year or whatever. When's the last time you went and downloaded

00:18:03   all those apps? Like, that's, no one does that anymore, if they ever did. If you've

00:18:09   been published in some, you know, some publication, that's, it's more like winning an award.

00:18:13   It's an honor. It's nice. It can make you feel good. It can validate your work. It will

00:18:18   kind of put you on the map in the sense that some people will, over time, have a better

00:18:22   chance of recognizing your app's name or your name. That's all great stuff, but that

00:18:27   does not translate into very many sales directly. It's always a very, very small effect. If

00:18:33   any, and it's hard to even see it in the graphs, as you said, sometimes, unless it's

00:18:38   a very, very big publication, and even then, like, what percentage of these readers or

00:18:43   viewers or whatever are going to then go to the app store and get your, like, it's,

00:18:48   there's so many leaps there. Whereas, like, the mechanisms that will put your app in front

00:18:54   of people in a different context at a better time can be way more effective, even if it's

00:19:00   a smaller number of people coming in that, you know, officially being addressed by it.

00:19:04   So, for instance, an app store search ad or a Google search ad, like, those are way more

00:19:09   effective because those are capturing people who are actively looking for, hopefully, what

00:19:14   you are selling. You're going to get a more, a stronger response there. And then, the path

00:19:19   for them to convert, which we'll get to next episode, probably, but the path for them to

00:19:22   convert is much shorter. They don't have to put down their newspaper or switch out of

00:19:27   their browser, go to the app store, search for your app, like, all those steps are removed.

00:19:33   They can just, like, click a button and pay, and then they have your app. All that matters

00:19:37   so much to the effectiveness of all of these. So, yeah, press, it's a wonderful honor.

00:19:43   It can very slowly build brand recognition and reputation, but it is not great for direct

00:19:49   sales.

00:19:50   No, not at all. And I mean, I suppose, you were just leading into it, but I think probably

00:19:54   you're talking about paid acquisition, which is another, in many ways is a version of editorial

00:20:01   acquisition. But it's the version that you pay to be there. Like, you could be featured

00:20:06   in the app store, or you could pay to be on the feature page of the app store. Like, both

00:20:10   of those things are things that exist to us now that in many ways, they have the same

00:20:14   billing and the same prominence in the app store as it is structured right now. And it's

00:20:19   like the paid acquisition is, I would say it's one of those things of it works, but

00:20:25   it necessitates a certain business model to be financially viable. Like fundamental to

00:20:32   the concept of paid acquisition is that you need to make more money from a customer than

00:20:37   it costs to acquire them, or at least break even. Yeah, I mean, it's like make even

00:20:41   if you made a penny or if you lost a penny, like you're probably you know, it's one

00:20:45   of those, you those two things have to be in the same ballpark or close to each other.

00:20:52   Because if they aren't, you're just, you're just gonna run yourself into a hole. And there

00:20:56   are certainly apps and I see this regularly in the app store of certain apps that are

00:21:00   not balanced in that way. And it is clearly they are trying to do something different

00:21:05   than what a traditional indie app developer is trying to do. We're trying to make a sustainable

00:21:11   living for the long term. You very often I've seen these things, you know, it's like clearly

00:21:14   somebody is they have a certain budget that they are trying to burn through in search

00:21:20   ads to acquire customers, either it's because they're trying to turn them into like, it's

00:21:25   a accurate there. There's other things going on there. It's a brand play, they're

00:21:30   trying to knock out other competitors. There's things like that, or it's I mean, this sort

00:21:35   of the more sort of less desirable part is it's the version of someone is paying lots

00:21:41   of money to acquire customers that they then will eventually turn into some, you know,

00:21:46   like weekly $10 a month $10 a week subscription and try and sort of squeeze as much money

00:21:51   out of it as they can, which isn't great, obviously, as a as a health of the app store

00:21:56   kind of a thing. But broadly, if you want to do paid advertising, that's great, you

00:22:01   just need to balance it with your sort of lifetime value of a new of a customer to you.

00:22:09   And for many indie apps, based on the costs of search ads, for example, in the App Store,

00:22:15   it is I've found it very difficult to balance those two things in such a way that you come

00:22:20   out ahead, that the cost to acquire a user is so high that the value of that customer

00:22:26   has to be commensurately very high. And sometimes that can work and that works for you awesome.

00:22:32   Like once you have if you have a situation where, you know, you spend spend a dollar

00:22:37   to acquire a customer and make $1.10 back, like great, you have a money making machine

00:22:43   like crank that wheel forever. But I don't think that's the way it works for most customers,

00:22:48   most people where you're able to do that. And that's, you know, challenging and you

00:22:52   have to rely on other things then to acquire your customers or find other forms of paid

00:22:57   advertising that work, you know, where you may be able to it may be more productive to

00:23:03   take out an advertisement in a very specific publication than it would be to just have

00:23:07   a generic ad, you know, ad that you're showing for a keyword in the App Store. Like, I don't

00:23:12   know, maybe that's the case, like depends on how specialist your app is, or how specific

00:23:16   it is. But anyway, I paid advertising for me, I know you've had more experience than

00:23:21   I have on this Marco, but I found it to always be. It feels like I'm just throwing, you

00:23:26   know, good money after bad, like it never really is balanced out for me. And that's,

00:23:30   you know, in some ways a question of my, you know, my monetization. Like, if I monetize

00:23:35   better, maybe it would make more sense and that maybe that's on me. But that's the

00:23:40   reality of, you know, what I find.

00:23:41   No, unfortunately, I have exactly the same to report that I've done a lot of different

00:23:46   forms of paid advertising and paid promotion and everything for Overcast. And even Instapaper

00:23:52   before that, I think I've lost money on all of it. Maybe search ads in the App Store,

00:23:58   I might be kind of, sort of, maybe breaking even, but even then, not always. And I don't

00:24:03   think I actually, I think I'm actually slowly losing money on that too. The problem is,

00:24:08   as you said, with paid advertising, it is way more expensive per acquired customer than

00:24:14   most indies realize. And again, you mentioned all the reasons why, like, you know, because

00:24:19   there are businesses out there who stand to make more money from a lifetime customer than

00:24:24   your business. That's it. There's a reason why, when you listen to podcasts or you look

00:24:29   at App Store search ads, you don't see a lot of indie app businesses repeatedly advertising.

00:24:35   You know, I've bought individual ads here and there on lots of stuff, or like, you know,

00:24:38   little short runs of ads, but usually I've concluded that it wasn't worth it and I

00:24:43   was losing too much money on it and so I've stopped. And you look around and indies generally,

00:24:46   that's the same way. Like, you don't hear a lot of indie apps advertising on podcasts

00:24:50   more than once. There's a reason for that. It's just too expensive. And other companies

00:24:55   can make more money per customer. Like, if you're selling like web hosting, where someone's

00:24:59   going to be paying you, you know, 50 to 100 bucks a month at least, you know, for some

00:25:04   kind of web hosting arrangement, then you can afford to spend, you know, $50 to acquire

00:25:10   a customer, you know, because you'll make it up. But if you're selling an app that,

00:25:14   you know, that maybe it's a free app to download, maybe you want to sell someone an

00:25:17   optional in-app purchase that might monetize you to like 10 or 20 bucks a year, that's

00:25:22   going to be really hard to make money on with paid ads because there are just too many companies

00:25:28   that will outbid you. For any effective paid advertising, you will probably be outbid by

00:25:34   companies who can spend more than you because they will make more than you from each customer

00:25:40   they get. So if you have a business where that's true, that's great. Then, you know,

00:25:44   if you have a high profit per customer business, that's great. Most indie apps are not that.

00:25:49   So I would say for most indie apps, paid acquisition is generally not worth it.

00:25:54   Yeah. And I mean, that which is challenging because that leaves us with sort of the last

00:25:58   form of acquisition, which is sort of organic word of mouth advertising. And I say that's

00:26:04   challenging because honestly, I think this is a thing that has been very important to

00:26:09   my apps and is the thing that broadly is the most reliable. But the difficulty of it is

00:26:15   that it tends to be much less than you would think it is or how big you would want it to

00:26:23   be, maybe. Like I was doing a bit of analysis before the show and it's hard to tell exactly

00:26:28   like where people come from. So you don't really know if it's word of mouth. But for

00:26:32   the applications that I have, I don't do paid advertising. And so the primary source

00:26:37   I suspect of people coming to my apps, especially if they if I look in the app analytics and

00:26:41   do the, you know, they're coming from search, they're probably coming, you know, because

00:26:45   they've heard about the app from somewhere else. And it seems broadly, that you could

00:26:50   hope for like word of mouth advertising to generate 5% of your like monthly active users

00:26:56   as new users each month. Say that was sort of based on my apps, that was the number that

00:27:01   kind of seemed to be about the right rule of thumb. You know, so if say you had 100,000

00:27:07   monthly active users, you could expect that to generate about 5000 new downloads a month,

00:27:13   maybe, like as a rule of thumb, I think that's a reasonable place to start. And that's a

00:27:17   challenging place to start, because that's not bad, like it's that's isn't costing you

00:27:23   anything and is certainly useful. But it is hard to meaningfully grow at that rate, because

00:27:28   you also have a churn rate that is probably in the same ballpark, that you are losing

00:27:34   customers just as quickly as you are gaining them, if you know you, the best you can do

00:27:38   is 5% as a gain rate. And so it's tough. And I think, like, I don't know where that leaves,

00:27:46   it's one of those challenging things I found with acquisition is, I think it is fundamental

00:27:50   and the only apps I've ever had succeed, sort of either had some other some some hook where

00:27:57   acquisition happened, or got to this critical point of word of mouth, where they it was

00:28:04   enough to sustain the app, because the word of the 5% was of a big enough number that

00:28:09   it was meaningful, and it didn't just sort of die out. And I think as an indie developer,

00:28:14   retention, which we'll probably talk about sort of in the last part of the series, is

00:28:18   just as vital because each customer is so valuable to us because it is so hard for us

00:28:24   to acquire customers. So but it's reasonable for us to go into this with a clear eyed view

00:28:30   of that, that there's no easy way for small developers to acquire customers. And as a

00:28:35   result, it's going to be an uphill battle. It's going to be difficult. And I think it's

00:28:39   important that new developers coming into this are just me to be reminded that like,

00:28:43   that's difficult and is challenging. And I think will probably always be difficult and

00:28:47   challenging. But doesn't mean it's impossible, like you and I are both people who've made

00:28:50   this work. But it has never been easy of a thing to do.

00:28:53   But yeah, and you know, the organic, you know, word of mouth kind of acquisition, it is the

00:28:59   most elusive, it is the hardest to get, it is the hardest to measure, it is the hardest

00:29:04   to quantify or to control in or to influence in any way. But it's free. And it's very powerful.

00:29:13   You don't really know, like it's, it's so hard, but you're right. I mean, it is, it's

00:29:16   so important for us to get customers and to keep customers. And you're right, that basically

00:29:21   organic is is the only good way available to Indies. And it's really, really hard to

00:29:27   get. But the good thing is once you do find a way to get it, it is kind of automatic and

00:29:33   wonderful. But we will get into more of that down the road. In the meantime, thank you

00:29:38   everybody for listening. And we will talk to you in two weeks.

00:29:41   Bye.

00:29:42   Thank you.