0:00:00Hello Upgradians, I have a note before we get started today.
0:00:03We had hoped that this was going to be our first regular episode,
0:00:07but there was one slight wrinkle that we didn't think was going to be a problem.
0:00:11Jason is travelling today as we usually record on Monday the 8th,
0:00:15so we recorded Sunday the 7th. We came in on our weekend like, "We'll do the show,
0:00:19we'll make sure everybody has a new episode of Upgrade for them." However,
0:00:23we now have Vision Pro pre-order information. So, beginning on January 19th is when you'll
0:00:30be able to order this thing. It's on sale from February 2nd. Apple says they're going to be
0:00:34available in all US Apple stores starting at $3499 for a 256GB model. It will come with two
0:00:42head straps, the one we've seen and another with a top strap that me and Jason got to use when we
0:00:46tried them on in June. The Zeiss lenses will start at $99 for readers and $199 for prescription.
0:00:53Why am I telling you this? Well, as you can imagine, big chunks of today's episode are us
0:00:57pontificating on when and how the Vision Pro would be announced and put on sale.
0:01:02So we had to pre-record this segment. We hope that you will be able to enjoy it. There's still
0:01:06a bunch of stuff in there that's post the launch frame and talking about what will happen for the
0:01:11rest of the year. So, still tons of stuff in there. But you will get to be able to enjoy and maybe
0:01:17grade us on just how right or how wrong we are and how we thought this thing was going to be
0:01:23announced. I will say from my perspective, big surprise that they announced it with a press
0:01:27release and when this thing is going to be going on sale. No more information than that as of right
0:01:31now. We'll be back to normal next week to break down all of this news. Please enjoy today's episode.
0:01:46From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 494 for January 8,
0:01:532024. Today's show is brought to you by Factor, Vitaly, and Nom Nom. My name is Mike Hurley,
0:02:00I'm joined by Jason Snow and welcome to the January upgrade-ies. That's what we're doing.
0:02:06It's all upgrade-ies all the time. All the time? All the time. No. Let's shorten it to just like
0:02:11upgrade. We'll call it just upgrade. All right, that's good. Well, we'll just award every piece of
0:02:16news. That's what we're going to do now. We're back to normal now. Thank you to everybody who
0:02:23checked out our December episodes. We had the weirdest scheduling of over Christmas day and
0:02:28New Year's Day episode and I think we did a good job. People seem to really enjoy the episodes and
0:02:34I'm very happy that we made it all work. Yeah, I mean as a Monday show we had multiple holidays
0:02:39plus travel. There was a lot going on there and so we... it was weird though because we did
0:02:45essentially record two and a half episodes in a two-day period. Yep. So that was... there was a lot
0:02:51and then there was nothing. Yep. We have definitely part of my... recorded since December 18th which is
0:02:56very strange for us. It is. It's very weird but we're back now. We are indeed. Just like that. We're back
0:03:04with all of the trimmings that you expect including a Snell Talk question. This Snell Talk comes from
0:03:10Ryan who wants to know, "Jason, how do you keep track of the books that you want to read?"
0:03:15Oh, books that I want to read. Oh, I wish I could say I have a system. My system is
0:03:24generally one of two things. I start with Libby which is a fantastic iOS app that works with
0:03:34OverDrive which basically if you have a library card and if you don't you should get one for
0:03:40your local library you can do ebooks from your library and Libby is the interface for that and
0:03:47if you have multiple libraries and you may find that there are multiple libraries that you're
0:03:50allowed to... you don't... you're not limited. It's not like voting where you can only vote in one place.
0:03:55You can actually sign up for multiple libraries and sometimes there are even reciprocal
0:03:59library agreements. I actually am logged into four different library systems in my Libby
0:04:03which is a little confusing but I'm eligible for all four so I have all four. Anyway, so great thing
0:04:10about that is that I hear about a book and I can search for it and if they've got it I can either
0:04:16borrow it right then and read it on any device I want or I can... if it's not ready I can wishlist it
0:04:23and if I'm not ready to read it right now but I want to remember it I tag it in Libby. Libby has
0:04:29a tagging feature and I have a "I want this book" tag that I'll put on it and that allows me to look
0:04:34later and say oh here are books... here are library books that I wanted to read at some point and
0:04:40you know then I can put myself... like if they're available right then I can be like oh I'll just
0:04:44check it out right now and read it and so that's really great. If it's not available in the library
0:04:50or I want to read it right now and it's not available in the library for months then I will
0:04:56usually just go to Kobo since my primary reader is a Kobo. I'll just go to kobo.com generally and buy
0:05:05it and then it's on my device so I sort of have two places to look for books when I'm deciding
0:05:09what I want to read. I have my e-reader itself and I have Libby on my iPad or iPhone and those
0:05:15are the places that I get my books. Libby is never not weird to me. Like I understand it but I still
0:05:21don't... can't fully get my head around the idea of like library ebooks. Yeah it's... I mean it's really
0:05:30kind of amazing. So if you have a Kindle you check out the book and you choose send to
0:05:34Kindle and it opens a web page and you basically say okay you log in if you're not logged into Amazon
0:05:40and say okay and it just shows up on your Kindle. With Kobo, my Kobo is logged into one of the
0:05:47libraries so with Kobo I just check it out and sync the Kobo and it just shows up on I mean on
0:05:54next sync whether I sync it or not. So that's... and it's just there and then it's got an expiration date
0:05:59it will take it you know 21 days later it will it will take it away from you if you haven't
0:06:04finished it and on the Kobo when you get to the end it actually says would you like to return the
0:06:07book now and you say yes and it connects to Libby and it boop or overdrive and it and it checks it
0:06:13back in for you and then you can even download it to your computer using Adobe Digital Editions
0:06:22which is a very bad piece of software but it will sync with e-readers too. So the other way to do
0:06:28it is you can download the file on your computer and then sync it that way and that also works. So
0:06:32there's lots of different ways to do it. It's actually not that more complicated than
0:06:37checking out than buying a book somewhere. Yeah overdrive is a weird name for a library app. Libby
0:06:42is a good name. Overdrive that doesn't tell me what it is at all. Yeah you know so the service
0:06:48the service is called overdrive and they're sort of I think stuck with it but and they used to have
0:06:53an overdrive app but they created Libby as an app and I think for the reason that you just suggested
0:06:58which is it's actually for a library branded friendly consumer facing library thing Libby is a
0:07:05good name for an app. What's the name for that library book app? Overdrive. Yeah okay yeah yeah
0:07:13just because you might you know need to go into overdrive I don't I don't know why it's like
0:07:18you know some brand names don't make are not the best like there's the the library also offers a
0:07:25bunch of video stuff including movies and things you can get from your local library that are
0:07:29digital and that's usually on Hoopla which is a thing that is a name that doesn't say anything
0:07:36about anything so Libby in the grand scheme of things. You know what I here's the thing it would
0:07:41not surprise me if getting streaming video from the library is a bit of a Hoopla you know. Ah it
0:07:47is in fact it is 100 Hoopla. There you go so maybe that one they actually chose the name correctly.
0:07:53But Libby and Hoopla I think you have like a limited number of movies you can check out in a
0:07:58month or something like that but Libby it's just like you know you just read the book and then turn
0:08:01it back in and then read another book it's once I got in the habit and as I realized just the yeah
0:08:06the support that the e-readers have I highly recommend it if you or even if you're reading on
0:08:10like a on your iPhone I mean you can actually read in the Libby app or you can send it to the
0:08:15Kindle and read in the Kindle app there's lots of different options it's pretty amazing so check in
0:08:21with your local and regional libraries find out where you can get a card and see who's got
0:08:25overdrive. I highly recommend this episode brought to you by libraries. Libraries they're your friends.
0:08:30Thank you to Ryan for that snow talk question if you would like to send in a question to help
0:08:36us open a future episode of the show go to upgradefeedback.com where you can submit one.
0:08:45I have some follow-up for you Jason Snow. I will say today is lots of followed where I think by
0:08:51and large we are going to be covering what has been going on over the last few weeks while we've been
0:08:58doing we giving out awards. It's been a month yeah since we addressed current events. I also wasn't on
0:09:05the last regular episode so which is right because that was John Siracusa. Yeah was I no I came back
0:09:13one never it doesn't matter anyway follow up killers of the flower moon is debuting on Apple
0:09:18TV plus on January 12th so we have a date you decided to wait like I did just in the end I was
0:09:26just procrastinating now I'll be able to watch this movie for quote unquote free next weekend
0:09:31which I'm looking forward to in two installments probably we're going to do the same it's gonna
0:09:36it's it's gonna get lots of Oscar nominations everybody I I'll watch it in one go but we've
0:09:41three and a half hours yeah well okay that will that will also work right so I did with the Irishman
0:09:46you know or it's like take a break we just did our our annual well it's not annual we just did our
0:09:53recurring family event when Jamie was visiting us too we were all here and we did the six nights of
0:09:59the Lord of the Rings where we watched the extended editions oh boy which on disc and we I actually
0:10:06have the 4k h you know HDR ultra HD whatever is the blu-ray that I bought after we went to New Zealand
0:10:13yeah the it's great so you watch those extended editions they're super long but they they break
0:10:19in the middle and you watch one half a night for six nights and it was a lot of fun so I the
0:10:27intermission they don't make movies with intermissions anymore but that was a good kind of
0:10:31like set by the filmmakers intermission process and I you know sometimes I wonder if if for
0:10:37something like Killers of the Flower Moon if Martin Scorsese could like offer it in two forms like
0:10:41with an intermission and without an intermission but I guess for most people the pause button
0:10:45is the intermission I just I like I kind of like the idea of the filmmaker saying
0:10:49actually this would be a good time to go to the bathroom if you want you pause it here this is an
0:10:55appropriate because sometimes I pause it thinking like oh man another two hours I gotta go to the
0:11:00bathroom now and then I come back and I and I unpause it and like the scene ends and then
0:11:04there's like a a huge like story break and I'm like oh why did I save those last 30 seconds but
0:11:10you don't know if you're watching it for the first time anyway didn't Martin Scorsese do the exact
0:11:14opposite of this where some places were putting intermissions in and he got really mad about it
0:11:19and like made made the theaters stop doing it I don't know if I know that story but but this is
0:11:25the thing is like I you shouldn't do it without the filmmaker's permission but the fact is home
0:11:32video gives everybody permission and so you know the counter argument would be you know what if
0:11:38filmmakers who are making very long films actually built in an intermission either in theaters or for
0:11:45even home video would what would that look like could you do an intermission in software where
0:11:48it's sort of like there was a fade out and then it was like take a break or continue I somebody
0:11:53should experiment with that yep there were two cinema chains one in the uk and one in amsterdam
0:11:59where they put intermissions in and they got in trouble with paramount that's not allowed
0:12:03you're doing it it's not allowed well talking about not allowed the japanese fair trade
0:12:09commission is working on a law similar to the digital markets act in the eu that could force
0:12:15companies like apple to allow well not to allow to force companies like apple to allow I should
0:12:21say sideloading I said allow three times yeah but I knew what I meant you said it out loud did yeah
0:12:26so japanese fair trade commission they were the organization that had the first ruling for links
0:12:37being put in to sign up for a service remember that a very long time ago now good times and they
0:12:44are now looking to go down the same routes as the eu have when it comes to sideloading and also like
0:12:52dominant browsers and all that kind of stuff this is for google and apple and anyone else
0:12:56so I'm just putting that on the radar because I think it's going to be a thing we're going to be
0:13:00talking a lot about again this year yep apple have announced the first vehicles or at least
0:13:06the first vehicles to get the new carplay have been announced this includes the Aston Martin
0:13:12db12 coming in 2024 hello governor you're gonna get one of those no and Porsche have said that they
0:13:20will be adding the new carplay to their cars but gave zero details other than saying that they would
0:13:27adopt it I've got a link in the show notes to a macrumors article where they have images from
0:13:32Aston Martin showing how they are actually going to implement it into db12 and then there was a
0:13:39there was like a mock-up image from Porsche or something that they might want to do so this is
0:13:44you know the new carplay where apple is controlling your uh odometers and all that fun stuff so you
0:13:51get your speed and like I know you're not gonna buy an Aston Martin but like you should contact
0:13:57you're you're a British person you should contact Aston Martin pr okay and see if in somewhere in
0:14:03swinging London uh-huh they might have a demo of the new Aston Martin with carplay do you think that
0:14:10my lack of a driving license could be a problem I think carplay is is perfectly fine from the
0:14:19well I mean you do need to be in the okay you got me get up step one get it because because they're
0:14:24going to be right in front of you too because you're actually controlling it it's not just on
0:14:27the screen yeah could be yeah well they're not going to they're probably not going to trust you
0:14:32to drive that fancy car anyway so you just sit in the they'll just sit in the showroom and they'll
0:14:36let you look at it there how about that how about that I'll do what I can on that one no promises
0:14:41just tell them that you can drive and see what happens what they say I mean would they really
0:14:46check you know you're a fully licensed media professional that's all that really matters
0:14:51that's true I do have my license from the media professional agency that's right on that the
0:14:58apple store apple's infinite loop campus will be closing on january 20th pull one out for the the
0:15:03company store I've been there this was the apple store before there was an apple store this was the
0:15:08apple store and they always sold stuff that you couldn't get anywhere else we got a onesie for our
0:15:13baby yep company store at one point in the in the uh what 2002 era um the for our baby who is a
0:15:23college graduate now that that baby so um it is you know it's kind of been surpassed they built a
0:15:29whole store at apple park right a store slash visitor center and it also sells unique stuff
0:15:35like merchandise that is just not available in any other apple retail store and it's about five times
0:15:40the size of the infinite loop store yeah it is it is also I mean the infinite loop store has sold I
0:15:47don't know I haven't been there in years now um they did used to sell like there were computers
0:15:51there and there were there were um peripherals there and stuff like that it was um always you
0:15:59know right it predated the retail store and then at some point they put it into retail but it wasn't
0:16:03quite the same as a real retail store the apple store at apple park is a real apple retail store
0:16:07with extra stuff and the company store uh the infinite loop store never really felt quite like
0:16:13that so small so it's I think the writing was on the wall I honestly am surprised that it is still
0:16:20there but it will shortly not be there anymore my understanding is they did sell some unique items
0:16:24because they sold some infinite loop specific items not apple there's a lot of apple park
0:16:28branded apple merchandise at apple park as well as but like that's where I've got a t-shirt with
0:16:35a rainbow apple logo on it I'm like where do you buy that and the answer is you buy it at one of
0:16:40these stores that's that's the the only place they don't sell those it's a funny quirk of apple
0:16:45retail that apple does not spend any money on buy a t-shirt with the apple logo on it in any
0:16:51place other than when you make a pilgrimage to cupertino it's pretty funny I went there um the
0:16:57last wwc so wwc last year because I wanted to take it in there and it was closed uh they were
0:17:04they were doing set up for a developer event there or something like that and so it was very hot and
0:17:09we had to then stand and wait for an uber to take us away again which was very sad yeah but she got
0:17:14her picture in front of the sign which is really the real reason to go there yeah what's rapidly
0:17:20becoming a nostalgia trip since there's a I mean it's not the center of the universe anymore at
0:17:27apple although it used to be and it's uh I mean it's they built a replacement for it oh and it's
0:17:35like a thousand times better like the visitor center apple park is fantastic right that like
0:17:41it's a store and like an exhibition space and a cafe and seating area and like there's also
0:17:48something to look at because no offense to infinite loop not much to look at but you can look at apple
0:17:53park you can see some hints of it from the from that little viewing area at the top like there was
0:17:58a world in which they did none of that and I'm happy that they ended up doing all of it sure the
0:18:02people that well I think they knew they knew that people were going to come because people come to
0:18:06the infinite loop and they're like okay how do we deflect them right it's like we don't want them in
0:18:11the ring because like literally infinite loop you can just drive around it yeah you can walk up to
0:18:17you can walk inside I mean they'll stop you but like you can you can drive and park you can drive
0:18:21all the way around you can power do some power sliding as you drive around the loop you can you
0:18:25can and then you can park anywhere which is also where the employees park although you're not
0:18:30supposed to I think you're supposed to park only by the store and then you can walk you can walk in
0:18:34or walk up to pretty much any of the buildings and then they will stop you because you don't just you
0:18:39know you don't deserve to be there you don't belong there you don't have a pass you're not
0:18:42seeing anybody you're get out get out and stay out they very rarely said that to me but you know
0:18:49occasionally and you know I don't know whether they plan on like gating that entrance but they
0:18:56on mariani avenue but they could because it was always a little bit weird so when they built the
0:19:00new one they're like no no uh parking and everything is completely separate but across the street from
0:19:07the security gates we've made a little place for the general public to go and you can you can stay
0:19:13there if you want and the apple watch series 9 and apple watch ultra 2 are currently back on sale so
0:19:21now in upgrade continuity we have to be clear we never covered them going off sale okay because
0:19:29as we recorded our last episode they had just uh said that they were going to go off sale and we
0:19:35we were like well let's not even break the seal on that one because who knows how it's going to
0:19:40change between now and uh and and beginning of january which is where we are now so they went
0:19:45off sale and then they came back on sale i'm gonna not give all the details but basically they're in
0:19:50a patent battle of a company called massimo over the block oxygen sensor if you do not know about
0:19:57this right now there'll be some links in the show notes you can read up but the point thank you for
0:20:01only listening to upgrade and no other tech podcast i guess if you've never heard about it
0:20:05you never know i mean surely with at least one person's only source of apple news right
0:20:10no i'm sure i've heard i've had people say that the upgrade is their uh their apple or tech
0:20:15podcast which we appreciate very much there's an apple watch kerfuffle involving patents and it was
0:20:20briefly off sale and then when the biden administration declined to uh overrule the patent
0:20:28organization which they did for apple's benefit in a dispute with samsung but samsung not an american
0:20:35company massimo is an american company and despite the name which makes it sound like it's done by
0:20:41italian spies i keep thinking it's italian check with federico on that one but it's not it's an
0:20:46american company it's based in irvine it's like a mile from where my in-laws live massimo so i
0:20:50could check it out i could reconnoiter at some point in irvine in orange county so uh they the
0:20:57biden administration said nope we're not going to do it apple immediately appealed the appeals court
0:21:01immediately basically said okay it can go back on sale while we consider the case because it is
0:21:05taking a product off sale is harm and generally courts are like let's not do harm while we're
0:21:12waiting to process what's going to happen and uh and as a result apple has appealed and can keep
0:21:18appealing and until it's all wrapped up um it will still be on sale and presumably apple and massimo
0:21:25i don't know are they talking there it feels like this is all jockeying for leverage yeah yeah the
0:21:30u.s customs and border protection have to make a decision on january 12th as to whether software
0:21:38changes that apple wants to make would be deemed acceptable of massimo's patents right the appeals
0:21:44court that apple went to that put like a stop to the the ban or a stay as it's called i was also
0:21:50asked the itc the international trade commission to consider whether they would be willing to just
0:21:55stay the ban completely until the full appeals process has been completed one way or another so
0:22:02they could potentially be ruled against and have to take it back off sale or they could be told
0:22:07and again i feel like in general courts and and other organizations you kind of want to not
0:22:16that's what stays are for is you kind of want to not do harm i mean i guess massimo would argue
0:22:21that the existence of the apple watch is doing them harm yeah but um if there's a penalty that
0:22:27could potentially come uh you know if it's in dispute about whether an appeal is likely to be
0:22:33one or not i mean i don't know we'll see i i feel like that apple's got a real shot here for them to
0:22:38say you can keep selling it while this processes but this this may also be apple just kind of
0:22:42running out the clock yeah the itc happens on january 10th to confirm what they think about that
0:22:48that like you know obviously if the customs and border protection say it's okay then that's going
0:22:53to help them but if they don't then the appeals court has asked the itc if it can still be sold
0:22:58but failing all of this apple has another hearing on january 15th for the us court of appeals to try
0:23:03and get everything overturned entirely this is very messy this is very messy this is massimo
0:23:09i think some would probably call it okay they've got a something's gonna get done about this
0:23:15because it's kind of i will say i'm very happy we've not covered this week to week
0:23:20that like it's been happening while we've been mostly on break because this story is kind of
0:23:25exhausting to me to be honest and uh you calling it messy mode does not make it better so it does
0:23:32it makes everything what if what if there was like a big apple story and we just didn't cover it on
0:23:36upgrade we're like nope i mean we haven't not done that you know there are things that are going on
0:23:41where we just don't bother because it's like not really like you know that there are people talking
0:23:47about it but it's kind of for us there's not really much to add so we just don't but this one
0:23:52is big enough that we would have and are now so like you know we'll probably give follow-up in
0:23:58the next couple of weeks as to exactly what's happening with this because it is a big story
0:24:02the idea of a product just being taken off sale which it was yeah wild it's also just a lot of
0:24:09court stuff which realistically is not really super interesting when all you can do is say
0:24:16what we've just said like there was an appeal that appeal was said yes appeal was said no two things
0:24:22um more that i wanted to say about this one is buying psychology which is i don't know about you
0:24:30i mean you you have a you have a an ultra 2 i do when it was right before christmas and they're
0:24:36like oh it's gonna go off sale because of this part of my brain was like jason just buy an ultra 2
0:24:41right now okay like why and the answer was because it's going away so maybe you should get it now and
0:24:51i'm like i don't think i really even want an ultra 2 i'm very happy with my previous generation
0:24:56titanium watch it's black it's titanium it's beautiful um i find it funny that apple has sold
0:25:02this titanium watch because it's i don't know if you could even tell that it's not an aluminum
0:25:07watch but i know right i know that it's titanium but and it's and it's it fits my wrist and it's
0:25:12fine i don't need an ultra 2 but part of my brain was like jason but the ultra 2 it's going away
0:25:17maybe you should get it now before it goes away because what if at some point in the future you
0:25:21decide you do want an ultra 2 and it's not available in any store what will you do then
0:25:26and i didn't buy it but i just i thought about it and i thought that was a really funny bit of
0:25:30buying psychology right like oh we're gonna take it off sale and part of my brain was like oh buy
0:25:35it now then before it goes away even if you don't want it you gotta buy it now anyway my other thing
0:25:41is just that if they really wanted to make this uh perfect confluence it would be uh leonel messimo
0:25:50love it uh i don't know why you think that was acceptable but mine wasn't um no i'm just going
0:25:55further into the into the garbage dump there so you're welcome to me this whole thing is hilarious
0:26:00because of the feature that is the problem which is like realistically a useless feature of the
0:26:05apple watch because of how it's been implemented which is the blood oxygen reading compared to the
0:26:11other health stuff it's you know i know right like if this was the heart rate sensor it's like okay
0:26:19fight this i mean it will it will do some warning and i do wonder if like the sleep apnea detection
0:26:25that they're rumored to be working on if part of what that is going to include is an oxygen monitor
0:26:30and like do they how they but there's all the the fda approvals and things like that and as a result
0:26:36there are some alerts but mostly it's just you go to the app and it gives you a number and we know
0:26:41that the number isn't like as accurate as some other equipment would make it but it is something
0:26:48uh but yeah it's it's very funny this is this is hardly a honestly if if the ruling came down and
0:26:54they said look just turn the feature off on new hardware or even new and existing hardware until
0:27:00we rule on this would it really be a material destruction of functionality of the apple watch
0:27:05to have the blood oxygen sensor shut off for a while yeah because it's just a feature that
0:27:09they've never really even when it's never felt core yeah well they just never did a good job
0:27:16of explaining what you could use it for and and i don't even think it's the case of like oh it's not
0:27:21fda approved because like the temperature sensors are not as good as they could possibly be but it's
0:27:27actually implemented into a useful part of the product right right although very specific part
0:27:33of the product and there's potential yes but other potential uses it they have shied away from sure
0:27:39so i don't know but the blood oxygen sensor is it doesn't even ever really feel like to me it
0:27:45even had that one thing that it was doing that was super beneficial yeah i am a blood oxygen sensor
0:27:53hater yeah i know you are you you could the knives are out for the blood oxygen sensor
0:27:58i am massimo that's what you are are you are you mike massimo is that you are you from italy or
0:28:07from southern california which is it answer the question this episode is brought to you by factor
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0:29:14to cook a factor meal uh disruptive is not a word i would ever even use it's super easy but what i
0:29:22i mean you can see in the microwave and it takes two two three minutes and that's it and then it
0:29:27comes out and it tastes good and i'll just say again i think i've said this here before um they
0:29:32sent us another box and lauren just would steal them and take them to work with her yep i mean
0:29:38like i i said hey wait a second they our very nice sponsor sent those to me so that i can talk about
0:29:43it on a podcast and uh she was not really interested in hearing that and just took them to
0:29:48work with her and the comment she also gave me as she stole my lunches away to take to work for to
0:29:54use as her lunches was i don't know how they make microwave chicken taste good which i agree with
0:30:03that you you might think about it like reheating a microwave meal and you can heat them up in a
0:30:06toaster oven or an oven too if you want to but um but it's easy in three minutes in a microwave
0:30:11um if you've reheated microwave food before or frozen food in the microwave you know sometimes
0:30:16especially with like meat you're like this isn't quite right there's stuff and that's just not the
0:30:22case i don't know what they're doing uh some of it is the high quality ingredients but um it's just
0:30:26good and and uh and and all of it that's that's what impresses me it's in three minutes you've
0:30:32got something that does not feel like it came out of a you know lab somewhere and was extruded from
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0:30:42i can't tell you much more personally because most of them were stolen by my wife that's the
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0:31:30saddle up partner it's time for a round up uh the horse is happy to get out in the back 50 again
0:31:38the new york times is reporting that apple is in talks with various publishers to license their
0:31:43content to be used for training their large language model at apple the times is reporting
0:31:50that apple is offering quote multi-year deals worth at least 50 million dollars and has made
0:31:56these deals to publications like condonist and nbc news and i wonder maybe the new york times
0:32:02could it be you know i find that to be very funny uh like how did you get this information new york
0:32:09times well you know certainly the reporters don't know but um but it is always funny when they're
0:32:16like we're reporting on something that's happening inside the building that's always pretty hilarious
0:32:22so this is in contrast to i guess what open ai is doing where they are doing some of these deals but
0:32:29they are reportedly very small and i think and the new york times has taken has taken open ai to court
0:32:37and open ai said hey we were talking to them we were trying to arrange something and my
0:32:41expectation is open ai was like that's not enough money see you in court right so uh a couple
0:32:47thoughts here one is there is this ongoing debate about whether you know training a model on
0:32:56copyrighted material is allowed if that's legal and also if if it is legal what is legal in
0:33:07terms of how it gets presented because that lawsuit that was filed which is i think the
0:33:12new york times filed against microsoft and open ai they said basically we can we can make a prompt
0:33:18that gets gets your model to spit out a paragraph that is verbatim from our source and i know it was
0:33:27a complex it was like literally pasting the first two graphs of the story and saying write the next
0:33:31graph but that's not the point the point is if you can coerce an ai model to output copyrighted
0:33:39material that i i'm fascinated by this argument because i i'm moved by the idea that google
0:33:46indexing the web is not copyright infringement but google republishing your article is copyright
0:33:51infringement and there's a gray area in between where it's sort of like are they stealing your
0:33:58you know ability to make a business on it by summarizing it in a way that devalues it and
0:34:02they're using it as raw material and and uh but leaving that aside i feel like the big problem
0:34:08with a lot of these models is that is not necessarily that they're trained on copyrighted
0:34:13material i do think that's a problem but that there's no control over what they output and
0:34:19and they will frequently output something that contains portions of somebody's work
0:34:26and so it's like a copyright violation machine right in some ways like if you think about it
0:34:34like let's say it's legal to train on everything that's owned by everybody but it's still not legal
0:34:40to reproduce copyrighted material and i start if i'm a lawyer especially i start to look at uh
0:34:47at these llms and think wait a second what's stopping the llm from generating something that
0:34:53will get us sued for copyright infringement and the answer is as far as i know absolutely nothing
0:34:59and i think a lot of the controversy is about that which is these things don't know what their
0:35:07sources are and because you're feeding the copyrighted material in you will get it back out
0:35:12and there's two solutions to that one is only uh you know it's either you you do a filter at the
0:35:18end that says does this look like something that actually exists oh it does and don't do that or
0:35:23some sort of licensing agreement that says it's okay not necessarily just to train but like it's
0:35:29okay to train and that the output might contain some of my content because we've got a license
0:35:34for that and i don't know what the nature of this deal is that's being reported that they're talking
0:35:38about with apple i would imagine that apple is thinking of both those things apple is thinking
0:35:43on one hand we want to do a license a content license because that's going to put us in opposition
0:35:47to microsoft and open ai and we like that and it also is giving us a business relationship with the
0:35:53people who are generating the content so when the content comes out it is okay because we all are on
0:36:00the same page about this i also though wonder if it's more than that if it's also that apple
0:36:04is then apple's llms are then allowed to summarize or quote from the material because it's licensed
0:36:12and that would be one way to get better quality output right in some ways is having the confidence
0:36:17to say when you build your model that if they're you know if you can find a good source you could
0:36:24actually say here's what the new york's times said about it and it would be all cool because
0:36:29they're or here's what these wired magazines said about it i don't know it's an interesting approach
0:36:34i mean apple has a history of this right so they're the the machine learning algorithms that
0:36:40they built photo recognition on was on licensed imagery because i remember the question at the
0:36:47time of like you're using our images to train your algorithm and it was like no i remember
0:36:53craig vidry i think he said on the talk show said we have we are using licensed imagery so you
0:36:58imagine they must have spent millions like just buying up all this imagery so they could train it
0:37:04on and i guess what is one of the best ways to get this kind of text information is like to go to
0:37:10an institution with as much information as something like the new york times and just be
0:37:14like we'll just take all of that please just check out yeah and conde nast and nbc news and you build
0:37:19a sort of a licensed engine that is going to be distinct in some ways from some of the other
0:37:25models and i again this llm stuff and all the machine learning stuff it's really interesting
0:37:33i have no doubt that apple misjudged the public's interest in the in the llm chatbot kind of thing
0:37:40i still am kind of amazed when i see some articles that are like oh apple's like mark german's
0:37:47newsletter this week said apple's years behind on this and i'm like okay i can believe that
0:37:52apple is years behind that apple you know that people have been working on this for years and
0:37:56that apple really only kicked it into gear last year okay i'll accept that but then his examples
0:38:00are like because because google barred and the thing in bing are out there and it's like those
0:38:07things are embarrassing experiments they're not real apple doesn't do embarrassing experiments
0:38:11in public and it feels like a version of that same argument which is oh apple's late to the
0:38:17apple watch because apple waited until it was ready to release the apple watch and even arguably
0:38:23they should have waited another year but the pressure was pretty intense it feels a little
0:38:26like that to me which is like well wait a second barred and the the gpt inside bing and what was
0:38:34the other thing that he he said he said uh oh there was another ai thing where it's like oh
0:38:39apple's way back oh amazon announced a new version of alexa like i mean did they even ship that or is
0:38:46it just sort of like a it's just an announcement that they're gonna do it like to compare that to
0:38:50what apple's doing like i'm sorry you i'm inclined to believe that apple's a few years behind on ai
0:38:57these are not great examples because they're not things apple would do right apple is not going to
0:39:02put out uh something like the the barred experiment where it's sort of like i don't know the results
0:39:08aren't very good but you could try it out and they're not going to do something like pre-announce
0:39:12that syria is going to be better eventually in two years or whatever right like they they famously
0:39:17they don't do that so i need more evidence here about all of this stuff but um and i'm inclined
0:39:24to believe that yeah they're late to the party but what's interesting about this report is it
0:39:28suggests that they also got a different approach to this than some of their competitors and maybe
0:39:33that is born out of the fact that they're late to the party um maybe it's born out of the fact that
0:39:39their ml people are really skeptical about where all the ai stuff is has been going and is going
0:39:46and are are trying to approach it and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a better approach but they're
0:39:50approaching it differently i don't know but this is another data point i mean also though there's
0:39:56there's i think there's just a difference in the companies i think apple is well aware that there
0:40:01is no world in which anyone would accept apple taking this data without paying them like people
0:40:08are asking questions about open ai like i think right so but if apple did it we're in a whole
0:40:13different scenario no one's going to accept that right so so like that they're going about it the
0:40:17right way i mean google's doing it amazon's doing it so but i think you're right in the sense that
0:40:22apple wants to differentiate and there are lawsuits going on and like it let me tell you
0:40:27it is no coincidence that the lawsuit and the apple is going to pay stories happened within a
0:40:34day of each other right that is not a coincidence yeah that is the whole message is here's the right
0:40:39way to do it here's the wrong way to do it from somebody perhaps the new york times i don't know
0:40:43but like it's yeah it's it's interesting i don't know again i'm not trying to say oh apple i i've
0:40:52got the inside scoop apple really is killing this like i don't know they they probably were behind
0:40:57they were caught flat-footed but they're also their attitude to machine learning has always
0:41:01been different they've been shipping machine learning based products for years they have
0:41:05different standards and they're again there's an argument that maybe their standards are a little
0:41:09too high but time and again what we've seen is apple gets criticized for being late to the party
0:41:15because everybody else is pre-announcing things or doing experimental things and then apple comes in
0:41:21at a moment when it's a it's a product that apple would actually be proud of and all of what what is
0:41:30surprising when you're in it is that all that stuff fades away like do we really remember now
0:41:37really unless unless we do this for a living maybe that like that first apple watch when it was
0:41:44coming out when it was uh like six months before it was even introduced let alone shipped people
0:41:50were writing stories about how apple desperately needed a new product and tim cook needed something
0:41:57to justify him being the ceo those were ridiculous then but there was a lot of it there was a lot of
0:42:02heat because people are you know people are people and they're impatient and they want to be
0:42:07entertained and it doesn't necessarily mean that you know apple has to exercise discipline to be
0:42:12like i know people want to be entertained people want us to the hot thing is chatbots we need to
0:42:17launch a chatbot but we need to do it right now that could lead to complacency and it could lead
0:42:21to apple missing the boat it absolutely could but i just i keep thinking about things like the apple
0:42:26watch where it was the most important thing ever and yes a lot of us looked at it then we're like
0:42:32guys the iphone is the most important thing and it's going to remain the most important thing the
0:42:36apple watch is a nice thing if it happens but it's it's never going to be more important than the
0:42:41than the iphone and yet that was the case and then the apple watch shipped and it was what it was
0:42:47and six months or a year later it blew over and everybody was kind of over it and and like i said
0:42:54earlier i think we could all agree thinking back on that original apple watch it was kind of too
0:42:58early right like it was running everything on the phone and projecting it onto the watch it was like
0:43:02it was a little it was a little early if anything but they shipped it because they were under
0:43:06intense pressure to do it so i think about the with the ai stuff is that we're comparing apples
0:43:10to oranges here we're talking about companies that can afford to put up experimental things and have
0:43:17them be terrible and have like horrible output that misleads people and makes people file like
0:43:22legal briefs that are citing cases that don't exist and they're like eh what you're gonna do
0:43:27it's all an experiment and apple couldn't get away with that but it also is possible and i think
0:43:33actually likely that apple's vision of where machine learning tech was going to be applied
0:43:41in its products maybe maybe lacked a little bit in terms of where the technology was going to take
0:43:51great leaps and capture people's imagination and i think both of those things can be true so i'm
0:43:56interested this is going to be a great year to answer this question of like well what can they
0:43:59get in a product this summer what can they get in the os is um but uh this story this this story
0:44:06about the licensing says it again right which is like if you're expecting apple to just jump in and
0:44:11play the exact same game as everybody else they're not gonna i'm like what part of apple do you not
0:44:16understand they're not gonna do it they're just it's just not how they're wired um and they may
0:44:22succeed they may fail but they're not playing the same game they're just not main qi quo is
0:44:28reporting that the ultra wide camera on the iphone 16 pro will feature a 48 megapixel sensor this
0:44:35would allow it to capture much more light and generate higher quality images uh i would love
0:44:41this because i have been unhappy for the last couple of years of how frequently the iphone
0:44:46switches to like the ultra wide macro setting when you're close to stuff because it produces
0:44:52a worst looking image like they can be like definitely not as good in low light so my hope
0:44:57would be that this would help make that better if they had a lens with that sensor behind it that
0:45:01could take things from closer um instances to get that benefit so that would be good if they do it
0:45:08a lot of good bits here um remember ultra wide gives you even more area like you could use this
0:45:17for um for center stage um you could use this uh for macro and i think one of the big motivators
0:45:26here is if you use this with the main camera to do um stereo videos um 3d videos for the for the
0:45:36vision pro it's cropping from a much higher sensor because it's you know what it's going to be one of
0:45:43the eyes along with the main camera that's how they do that but the current one that's implemented
0:45:48on the 15 it's cropping a low megapixel sensor in order to get the same field of view as the main
0:45:56camera which means that's why it's like a 1080 picture is because the quality just isn't as good
0:46:02so if they put it at 48 not only yeah your ultra wides are going to look good and you can you can
0:46:11zoom in like center stage like you can zoom into parts of it and it's actually going to be good
0:46:15macro is good stereo capture is good it's funny because in a normal world apple probably looks
0:46:21at the ultra wide and it's like why does this need to be higher quality uh but then you start
0:46:26to tick off oh but we use the ultra wide it's like a utility camera we use it for a lot of other stuff
0:46:30okay like i think they use the main for center stage when you use continuity camera but like
0:46:36the ultra wide has more coverage so i could see a scenario where you even used it for that
0:46:40and said if you need to go outside the frame switch to the ultra wide and then you can go
0:46:44even further to the left or the right and get everybody in there like there there are a bunch
0:46:49of uses for it right to having that ultra wide and so we've reached the point now where they
0:46:52look at the ultra wide camera and they're like oh yeah i guess it should be better which is great i
0:46:57love this report the idea that apple's not sleeping on its other cameras that you know
0:47:03because they they all should keep getting better and mark german is reporting that the iphone 16
0:47:09lineup will include a new dedicated button that you can press for taking video i'm assuming also
0:47:15photos but mark has just said video it will be a signable i don't know it will be a capacitive
0:47:21button on the bottom right side of the phone where the millimeter wave antenna is if you have a us
0:47:26model the button will not physically move but it will feature haptic feedback and force sensitivity
0:47:32so it'd be an area that you'll you'll press apple did this with the uh the home button for many
0:47:37years when it moved to touch id this is very interesting and weird to me it's like it's just
0:47:45like a button like why now like i know right now but also ours emerged from their tomb after many
0:47:50years it's this is odd this is an odd one um i would like it like why not but it's like it's
0:47:57one of those things where like you know we were just talking about the the 3d video like you know
0:48:04like spatial videos this might be part of the reason but it is just like a funny thing to after
0:48:09all these years you now put a physical quote unquote button on the phone for capturing media
0:48:17of two new buttons and two new buttons in two years yeah two new buttons in two years the iphone
0:48:2320 the entire rail of the phone will be all buttons just all buttons it's all buttons yeah i
0:48:29mean it puts one it puts an action button on the other side that's part of it we know that they
0:48:34were trying to do capacitive pressure sensitive you know fake button buttons with the action
0:48:40button and the report is they couldn't get it to work so they or with the volume buttons i think
0:48:44it was right like and they couldn't it was it was the volume and the the action button was supposed
0:48:50to be action but that's what the rumors said anyway initially anyway and that they had to back
0:48:54out of that so this is on the other side it's on the other end i think it maybe addresses the issue
0:48:58of having it be held upright for um you know held for 3d captures that you put a more natural place
0:49:07for your finger to go i i mean as i'm speaking to you now i'm capturing video on my iphone using a
0:49:14amount that's like the the studio neat glyph so it's a it's like a clip and i keep you know it's
0:49:19halfway down the phone because above it there are buttons and you can't press the buttons now this
0:49:24if it's capacitive actually i think the any kind of mount will not affect it because it's being
0:49:30touched by not a human not human skin but i do have that moment of like how am i going to even
0:49:36mount my phone anymore but that all said like i love it this is i'm just going to replay we
0:49:41could just go to the clip uh what i said about the action button which is there is something amazing
0:49:46about having tactile it's it's like uh physical interfaces in cars instead of touch screens it's
0:49:52the same thing like having to deal with software and like how do you get there well you tap on this
0:49:57and then you scroll here and you swipe down and then you tap and then you open the glove
0:50:01compartment in a tesla right it's like or you set the setting on your iphone like it's so much better
0:50:08to turn on the air conditioning with a with a button or a switch it's so much better to start
0:50:15capturing video or take a photo by pressing a button or doing whatever with the action button
0:50:20but i think the the goal of the action button initially was literally i want a shutter button
0:50:25and this sounds like the primary goal is i want a let's start doing video button and i think that
0:50:30that is i think what it shows is that apple is really analyzing how people how regular people
0:50:37use their iphones and that one of the complaints about using their iphones is a camera which is
0:50:42probably the number one thing that people use their iphone for or certainly top three
0:50:47is is oh i got it like do i unlock it and i have to go and i find the app and then by the time that
0:50:53i do all that the moment has passed and i know there are shortcuts and stuff you can swipe in
0:50:57this direction and do that but like there's nothing like the the smooth physical action
0:51:01of pulling your phone out of your pocket it's in your hands you press the button you don't even
0:51:05need to look you press the button and know that the capture is starting i think that's the key
0:51:10part and you're capturing video you can get it going before you've even looked at the display
0:51:15just with your hands feeling the phone that is powerful because and because you don't have to
0:51:22interact with software at all it is like a physical like camera from the old days right
0:51:28where if you're a photographer if you ever had a camera you probably know that you can just go like
0:51:34turn in the old days like turn it on and then put your finger where the shutter is and then halfway
0:51:40down and click and you know you're and you're taking pictures there's no like okay well first
0:51:44you gotta turn on the camera and then you've gotta tap on the on the on the back of it in order to
0:51:50like that no it's muscle memory it's it's physical and there's great power in that especially for
0:51:55something like capturing video or stills where your eyes are not really on the phone and you
0:52:00don't want them to be on the phone you want them to be on the subject so i you know i don't know
0:52:04where this comes from that apple is just suddenly adding buttons everywhere but i love it like bring
0:52:10it on bring on the all button phone fine let's we'll figure it out uh well you know but like a
0:52:16few discrete buttons you don't want to overwhelm people with buttons then it's like the apollo
0:52:20lunar lander right like it's like this is maybe too many buttons but surely a few more buttons
0:52:26would be welcome for things like capture this is great i love this rumor i look forward to
0:52:31the disasters of cases again oh man yeah yeah well you know case making is a lucrative business
0:52:39and nobody said it would be easy you gotta you gotta toughen up case makers
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0:54:10thanks to vitally for their support of this show and relay fm so let's look ahead a little bit to
0:54:17the rest of this year and the vision pro specifically so here's my kind of imagination
0:54:24for how this thing plays out roughly right okay we're going to start the year with an announcement
0:54:29of some kind right however that happens doesn't really make too much of a difference for the fact
0:54:34that it will happen then units will start going out to reviewers presumably there would then be
0:54:40reviews before customers buy them customers will buy them apps will be released then wwdc rolls
0:54:47around presumably for operating system improvements i expect we'll see some wwdc then later on in the
0:54:54year a new version of the os and moving forward i doubt would i cannot imagine any more hardware
0:55:01this year but by the end of the year more countries right would start to potentially be
0:55:06receiving the ability to buy this product so this year no matter what is the story right like we are
0:55:15going to be talking about the vision pro throughout all of 2024 like with the product actually
0:55:22existing not just the way we've been doing it for the last couple of years where we've been talking
0:55:27about what it might be and then talking about our experiences and then wondering more about it but
0:55:31like we should see it in january probably some this is when this stuff will start to kick off
0:55:36and then it is the entire year right yeah the whole year yeah for sure are you excited about
0:55:43that prospect um yeah this is this is this is it right like whenever we were talking about like
0:55:51looking forward to 2024 what i keep saying is it's going to be a great year i know i heard you guys
0:55:56talking about this uh on connected last week that it doesn't matter how it goes i was trying to tell
0:56:06this to leo leport who's a real skeptic on mac break weekly a real skeptic about the vision pro
0:56:11and my point is it's okay to be a skeptic it's a weird product in a weird category that apple's
0:56:17never done before and they're trying a bunch of stuff but the point is first off they are trying
0:56:23a lot of stuff this is not a half-baked product this is cutting edge you and i both used it it is
0:56:32amazing technically it is an amazing piece of hardware so this is the world's number one
0:56:40technology company spending years building a product that is basically the best product
0:56:46money can buy to do this thing that people think many people think is going to be the future of
0:56:50computing and that's why they're doing it is because they think this is a future direction now
0:56:54are they wrong what are the it's a 1.0 product it's guaranteed because it's a 1.0 product that
0:57:00you're going to look back in five years and go boy right like because just even if it's successful
0:57:05because you learn things and the tech march is on but you got to start somewhere so regardless like
0:57:12look i i'm not an apple investor right and i'm not an apple employee so i don't have that kind
0:57:19of investment in it where i oh it needs to work because i need my stock to go up i i i'm not
0:57:26coming from that perspective but like as somebody who is enthusiastic about the kind of march of
0:57:32technology what a story this is succeed or fail because like start with what are the decisions
0:57:41they made we've got now a clue about that with the june announcements and with our 30 minutes each
0:57:46on it and they were very impressive but like it was a constrained environment extremely constrained
0:57:52we were told what to do for 30 minutes it was not free form so what what is that broader experience
0:58:00like what are the choices they made where do they fall down where do they succeed again regardless
0:58:05of whether it's a success or a flop because i don't think we're gonna know right like even if
0:58:10it's got a lot of of limitations it's a 1.0 product and i think they're in this for the long
0:58:16haul so they're going to be a lot of hot takes right that that's going to happen but like the
0:58:21big story here is it's an entirely new apple platform where they've spent a huge amount of
0:58:26time building incredibly cutting edge not just hardware but like software user interactions
0:58:32like the eye tracking based stuff i can't wait to see it and dig into it and see where it takes us
0:58:40and that's why 2024 is going to be i think is going to be great because i'm not saying the
0:58:46product is going to be great but i'm going to say the product it's impossible to look at that product
0:58:51and conceive that product and not think of how interesting and particular and peculiar that it's
0:58:59going to be and i don't think even apple understands because you never know until it's out there how
0:59:05people are going to use it how software developers are going to dive into it the ones that do like
0:59:12all of that is you can't even conceive of it until you start the clock and start shipping it
0:59:17like there are just fundamental questions that we don't have the answers to like what is it like
0:59:23to use it for one hour is it uncomfortable 30 say what is it like to use it for 32 minutes right like
0:59:32we don't know we don't know like what is it truly like to watch a movie on this thing like is it
0:59:37actually a nice experience like it looks like it would be but we don't know what is it like to
0:59:42write an email you know like what does the keyboard like to use on this thing like there are just all
0:59:48the things that we that are fundamental to the product that we do not understand yet and like
0:59:55just this whole idea this this this idea of spatial computing that apple is trying to bring
1:00:01to the world here right where this thing isn't just a media entertainment device it is a full-on
1:00:08computer computer you can use it like what is that world truly like right an ipad you put on your
1:00:16face what is that what is that like do you want to spend your afternoon moving your head left right
1:00:20up and down like is it nice or is it not no we don't know these things that is one of the
1:00:25questions that i really am curious about is if i sit at this this desk and instead of using
1:00:33the display the 27 inch display that's here i use a big display or a great use case for me is if i go
1:00:39visit my mom in phoenix and i sit at her dining room table with my macbook air but hovering above
1:00:46it now is a giant screen that is my mac in vision pro would i you know could i do that could i could
1:00:54i use it that way they say you can but like they say a lot of things right that's that's when
1:01:00reality meets pr is that that's when we we get in there and we're like okay well here's here what
1:01:05the issues are and i don't even i can't even make up what those issues are i don't know is there a
1:01:10is there an amazing workflow where there's like i was thinking about like the fact that it runs
1:01:14a lot of common apple apps i thought you know i i can do stuff on the ipad without having a mac
1:01:23around i can do a lot of stuff not everything but a lot of stuff and i thought i haven't even
1:01:26considered like what's it going to be like if i can put slack over here and calendar over here
1:01:32and mail up here and like do my working on the ipad but i'm on vision pro instead like
1:01:39theoretically i can do that but we don't know whether we you know you do that for half an hour
1:01:47and you're like nope forget about it or whether it's something you could do for all day or half
1:01:52a day or a couple of hours like yeah and and watching a movie and relaxing and doing playing
1:02:01a game like we don't know we just don't know about about that because all we've people inside apple
1:02:07know and maybe some people developers know a little bit more in the developer labs but really
1:02:12nobody on the outside is going to know until we set these things up and use it for minute 31 on
1:02:21we like what are the apps going to be like right like people have been dreaming this stuff up in
1:02:26their minds for a while like what they're working in the simulator there is the opportunity for
1:02:32experiences and applications that truly open our minds to what this world can be like i've said
1:02:41this in a few places now so i'm apologizing for repeating myself but i am kind of coming to this
1:02:46is this is probably the most important thing that apple has done in my time covering them
1:02:56professionally because it is a brand new thing with large ramifications like the apple watch is
1:03:06the only other thing that was brand new but it was never positioned as being a computer like that's a
1:03:15different that's a different thing right right it's an iphone accessory and and also that was
1:03:2010 years ago 10 years 10 years ago it was a very different time this is a computing platform yeah
1:03:26it's a new apple computing platform completely new well i mean completely within asterisk i guess i
1:03:31would say the last time that there was anything even remotely like this was the ipad introduction
1:03:35and although the ipad was a lot like the phone the vision os has a lot in common but it's also
1:03:4110 years on so i would say you could make a very easy argument that this is the biggest apple
1:03:45hardware introduction since the original iphone and like the way that i have been thinking about
1:03:50this in my mind is like it is adding the third input mechanism right so we had the mouse we have
1:03:59touch we have eye tracking eye tracking which yeah i was over christmas when we were in Bucharest
1:04:06there was some some of our friends were asking me about it and i kind of hit on a thing which is how
1:04:11i remember it being and again as i said to them i have not dined out so much on half an hour in my
1:04:17entire career as i have on that one 30-minute experience that i got right but as i've reflected
1:04:21on it for the last six months one of the things that i remembered is like the move the eye
1:04:28tracking almost when you get into the flow of it feels a little bit like mind reading it does
1:04:34because you naturally naturally look where you want to interact with so the fact that you are
1:04:42like oh i want to look at discord right now and your eyes will just go to discord and then discord
1:04:49is ready for you to interact yeah there is so little delay between these things happening in
1:04:54your brain it just feels like it felt like the device was just ready and working with me and and
1:04:59that is very cool well it's reading your mind and the reason that it feels like it's reading your
1:05:04mind is because like you're i mean people can look at your vision look at your eyes and and
1:05:13intuit things from it but at a very gross level right like oh you're looking you're looking over
1:05:19to the i'm talking to you and you're looking over to the left and you know you're bored or distracted
1:05:23or whatever this isn't like that this is like nobody knows exactly what i'm looking at exactly
1:05:29right it's only me because i i can see like it's it's a private like our gaze is at least i think
1:05:38most of us categorize our gaze at least specifically as a private like internal thing
1:05:44and the vision pro is like no i know i know where you're looking it knows what word you're looking
1:05:49at in a sentence yeah that's next level which is why which is why the privacy stuff is so
1:05:54important right because you can imagine bad apps and things building a profile of you based on
1:06:01where your eyes go and that's gross that's really gross because they're trying to read your mind
1:06:06but at a system level what it's doing is it's making the whole landscape around you in the
1:06:12vision pro you know augmented reality space it is it is like your companion who knows exactly what
1:06:20you're thinking at that at that moment and and i it's i don't want to overstate it but you are
1:06:25exactly right that like you it's like you think about doing something and tap your fingers
1:06:30together and the thing happens now what you're actually doing is you're looking at it and tapping
1:06:34your fingers and the thing happens but there is a leap i think that our brains make of you know
1:06:40thought to sight to action and by vision pro being able to take that that jump to sight it's like it's
1:06:48connecting thought to action directly and i think that that is going to be the thing that surprises
1:06:54people the most like i think that will be the thing that when people use it they will be kind
1:06:59of blown away why is is the accuracy again if it truly is as accurate as our experience was
1:07:05right and it does need to be for it to to have that effect um but it was very good when we used
1:07:12it and it was that part in the demo where they kind of stopped telling you what to do
1:07:16and it's a very clever trick that they play really well like at first like look over here and do that
1:07:21and then eventually it's like just click photos for me and like you just go and do it like there
1:07:25is a because it ends up becoming quite intuitive that's what i expect will be quite startling to
1:07:32people how kind of how good it is um but yeah i i'm i'm very excited for this year i think that the
1:07:43opportunities for content are massive like for us like i am so excited for what we will be able to
1:07:51talk about like i am very excited about it i mean we do okay when nothing's going on but it's great
1:07:56when stuff is going on and it's like even yes it's like even better yeah and you know my only thing
1:08:01that was just like how long until i get one i'm like trying trying to plan this out in in my year
1:08:07is the most complicated part but i will try everything possible in within my power time for
1:08:15another visitor to to uh the united states i guess i mean that is my plan right like my plan is yeah
1:08:23order one and then book a flight schedule a pickup book a flight yeah yeah the um i wanted to say the
1:08:30one thing that um i'm most interested in seeing i'm sure there are going to be a lot of things
1:08:35that are in the shipping version of the vision pro that surprise us that apple has withheld
1:08:39that they perhaps will even mention i'd be actually a little disappointed if they're like nope
1:08:43everything we showed in june is all that there is and the rest of it we took out i would be a little
1:08:48disappointed i want there to be some more stuff that they withheld but the one thing that i'm
1:08:53sure they withheld that i'm really curious about is is voice control because we didn't see any
1:09:03indication of siri or anything like that and and when you start to think about stuff especially
1:09:10what i think about is text input right but also you know more abstract commands in general i can
1:09:17see how you can go really fast with vision pro with your eyes and with your hands but i wonder
1:09:25if you can really take a leap production wise productivity wise if you can add your voice to
1:09:32the mix yeah because they said it was possible but they they never showed it they never showed
1:09:37anything right and tapping on a keyboard like if i want to answer somebody's text uh who sent me a
1:09:43message i i will see but like i have a hard time imagining that my preference is going to be to tap
1:09:50on a virtual keyboard instead of being able to dictate the answer yeah and and i i just will that
1:09:57be iphone level or will there be some quirks and interesting things that may that elevated a little
1:10:03bit because if you okay this is a little unfair but like if you have to break out the keyboard
1:10:10and the trackpad they blew it right like that you you shouldn't have to do that like if you want to
1:10:15be like oh i need to type a lot i'm going to bring out a bluetooth keyboard and go and i'm typing
1:10:20into something and it shows up in the vision pro great great do that if you need to do that but
1:10:24like i i if i'm tapping things out on the little virtual keyboard inside uh like there needs to be
1:10:32some more so i i'm anyway i'm curious about how well that integrates and if it's just iphone level
1:10:36siri or if there's some extra stuff going on there i'm digging around on the page and again this is
1:10:42nothing wild but they're like to dictate you just look at the microphone button and start speaking
1:10:47is one of the things on the page yeah baby see see and we weren't we didn't get to use that but like
1:10:52that's the that's that that's that um mind reading thing again right which is you look at the
1:10:56microphone and you give a command and then you look away and it's not it's not i don't know it
1:11:02feels that feels different to me than having to sort of take a deep breath and call the assistant
1:11:08to you ahoy telephone i give you a command now right and instead it's sort of like you just look
1:11:16and go this thing and then you move to the next thing and it's just it it becomes part of the
1:11:20user interface that's really interesting depending on how they execute it it's probably not long now
1:11:27not long now not long now not long no it's uh i love that we don't really understand how the
1:11:33rollout's gonna go that's also exciting but uh but like this month like weeks away if not days now
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1:13:56fm it is time for some ask upgrade questions i was worried that there could have been a backfiring you
1:14:08know because well they had to power up yeah it's they haven't been used in a little while so they
1:14:11get shut off to save some power we shut them off at the end of the year but now they're back yep
1:14:16back for a new year powered up the carbon neutral so we turn them off when they're not needed oh
1:14:21yeah they're recycled 100 recycled lasers yeah they just fire around the container we just
1:14:26they use them yeah yeah it's like uh yeah well it's solar power so we get the light from there
1:14:31and then we generate the lasers connor asks i'm looking to upgrade my intel macbook air and i'm
1:14:37looking at either the m2 macbook air or the m3 pro macbook pro cost is a factor but i also don't want
1:14:45to hit a ceiling in a few years i'm on zoom all day for work with an external display then i use
1:14:51xcode at night for my side project i travel about once a month on average so weight is a consideration
1:14:57but not a huge one i'm mostly worried about performance what do you think connor should go
1:15:02with jason well the key phrases i zoom into here are i use xcode and i travel about once a month
1:15:13so weight is not a huge consideration and i put those two things together and i say especially
1:15:19since you were coming from an intel macbook air you could look you could get an m2 air and you're
1:15:23going to be fine you're going to be happy but you also are concerned about hitting a ceiling in a few
1:15:28years and you're using xcode and you don't travel every week you're traveling once a month and you're
1:15:33not desperately concerned about weight and so i'm going to say macbook pro i think xcode your the
1:15:40performance is a concern for you and xcode means that you're actually using it pretty intensely so
1:15:47that's where i come down is i think you could get an air and it would be fine but i think you're
1:15:52going to be happier in the long run with the pro because of that xcode use and because the weight
1:15:58isn't super sensitive for you yeah while i am definitely a team macbook air i do think in this
1:16:05particular circumstance like if you can stretch to the m3 pro macbook pro you'll probably get more
1:16:10out of it yeah the xcode was the flag for me if he hadn't said xcode i've been like you know the air
1:16:15is going to be fine it's going to be good enough for performance and battery and it's nice and
1:16:18light and it's fine x kind of like okay yeah probably you should try to get a macbook pro
1:16:23but pro m3 pro like he said yeah i do i i do still pause a little bit on and i am one of these people
1:16:31just because how my circumstances ended out which is using the macbook pro with an external display
1:16:37because the display on the macbook pro is so good it's almost like you're robbing yourself or
1:16:41something which is fresh it's frustrating i can i am still frustrated that apple have not released
1:16:48a standalone display with the same uh specs as the macbook pro display right with pro version
1:16:54and stuff like that i think it's you're you're taking this beautiful display and closing it and
1:16:58then plugging it into an inferior display which is what i do and so many people do it and i think
1:17:03it's a shame but when you do use it uh as a laptop when you're traveling you'll have a great time
1:17:08with that display yeah darian writes in and says what do you guys think of my prediction
1:17:15given the max 40th anniversary on january 24th and accordingly the anniversary of the famous 1984 big
1:17:24brother ad at the super bowl combined to the launch of the vision pro early early this year
1:17:29what if we combine all of these things together apple will revisit that history of another super
1:17:35bowl ad that introduces the largest audience on earth to the new vision of spatial computing
1:17:40while calling back to the big brother ad and honoring the 40th anniversary all in one shot
1:17:45well okay largest audience on earth doesn't see the ads they only see the game so that's the first
1:17:49thing um it is the highest rated i think thing i mean the olympics are this year so i mean pretty
1:17:55close in endurance uh defense the ads of the super bowl are are like an event they are an audience
1:18:04unto themselves that's true i think that apple super bowl ad i think yes probably tied to the
1:18:0840th anniversary and the big brother ad with vision pro uh i mean it's not impossible that
1:18:13they'll do something like that i i would have a hard time imagining the vision pro will i don't
1:18:18know i think there'll be an apple super bowl ad vision pro may be involved it may not be they may
1:18:23just be like iphone we gotta sell more iphones because the iphone is where they're gonna make
1:18:26their money but it wouldn't i my answer to darren is maybe like i wouldn't bet against it
1:18:33but it's a very specific prediction right i will eat a hat you'll eat a hat i will eat a hat if
1:18:40they do a big brother ad are you kidding me they are big brother now they are big brother don't
1:18:47nobody mentioned big brother anymore like that is nobody mentioned they can't do that like the last
1:18:52time we saw the big brother ad and what i think more people living today referencing to is when
1:18:59fortnight ripped it off about apple about apple yep and i i don't i i i don't pro vision pro
1:19:10i mean who knows but i would say uh remember the apple did the thing where they where they put the
1:19:16ipod and the head earbuds in her ears you remember that where apple t faced their own ad no i don't
1:19:24remember that oh yeah they did it in the ipod era they did it they did a version of the ad where
1:19:29she's wearing the white earbuds yeah but that was still pre iphone right yeah yeah no i'm just saying
1:19:36that they've they've tried that i don't i don't i don't think i think there will be an apple ad in
1:19:40the super bowl and it might be for vision pro but that's about all as far as i would be willing to go
1:19:44brandon asks what do you think the storage tiers will be for the vision pro i hope there are none
1:19:53i hope it's yeah one configuration please don't make me choose right like it should have a lot
1:20:00more than enough it costs three and a half thousand dollars don't make me choose like the
1:20:05only things that should add expense to this are my prescription lenses and any accessories i want to
1:20:11buy yes there should not be multiple storage tiers i think when it starts at 34.99 i agree i think
1:20:17probably not storage tiers and instead you you got to pay for the lenses you got to pay for the cover
1:20:23you got to pay for an extra battery or an extra cable like there are there are accessory issues
1:20:30that you'll pay extra for but i i agree with you i hope i and i can't even conceive of what the
1:20:36tiers would be but like the idea of like well for 34.99 you only get 512 but if you're really going
1:20:43to use the storage the disc on the headset then we'll bump it up to a terabyte so i have no idea
1:20:53why i what am i doing with it you know what like why would i need storage downloading a movie but
1:20:58you probably just stream it right so yeah i i i hope not i i'm with you i hope not and kevin asks
1:21:06my current television is a 50 inch 1080p plasma instead of dropping thousands on the latest
1:21:11greatest television do you think i should just wait and get a vision bro i live alone so family
1:21:15use is not involved oh kevin buy a television kevin yeah i think so like i think so because
1:21:24then it's just all you can you can have it when you're cooking dinner when you're you know you're
1:21:29not gonna have a play video games right like you know yeah you buy television honestly if you're
1:21:35really concerned um and you've got a plasma now like you you get an oled for fairly reasonable
1:21:42you can get a enormous uh regular non-oled backlit display that does hdr and has local dimming for
1:21:50under a thousand dollars that's way larger than your current tv so you could also just get a nice
1:21:564k hdr tv and save the rest of your money for a few more years until this all gets shaken out but
1:22:02i would even if you want to buy a a pricey oled i would buy a pricey old lead buy it just buy it
1:22:09nice just just treat by tv television and like maybe yo self there will be used for a vision but
1:22:15i i really don't think it's going to be the only way you'd want to watch stuff was with that i
1:22:21can't conceive of i can't conceive of that no no and we also don't know the story about like what
1:22:26apps are going to be there because like it's disney bob eiger says disney plus will be there but like
1:22:31great point is your tv provider going to be there is netflix going to be there like what's going to
1:22:34be there and are those going to be good and and that you get you're going to be tethered because
1:22:40the battery only lasts so long like don't don't do it don't do it's too early there may come a day
1:22:45where we all say you know what single people who never watch media with other people don't even
1:22:50need a tv anymore because of the vision pro i don't think we're there yet and i don't think this
1:22:53new version this first version is going to bring us oh they'll even be like oh there's it's it's
1:22:57cheap enough that everyone in the house has one like a phone and we can share play and just watch
1:23:01it like you know like there is a world in which that happens but sure years away anytime soon
1:23:07yeah right if you would like to send us in your feedback follow-up and questions for ask upgrade
1:23:13you can always go to upgrade feedback.com until next week you can check out jason's work over at
1:23:19six colors.com and you can hear him on podcast here on relay fm and at the incomparable next
1:23:24week does my am i am i getting fired from six colors next week well i have to wait and see
1:23:28we're on a we're on a seven day rolling contract right now talk to my talk to my boss talk to your
1:23:33agent you can listen to me here on relay fm and check out my work at cortexbrand.com you can find
1:23:39this week until next week but maybe and i have to talk to look it has been known over the last
1:23:44future has promised to know i just real quick aside it was one of the weirdest experiences
1:23:50that i've had while listening to a podcast which was at the end of the episode of the talk show
1:23:55where john sirocusa was on they were talking about me not being on upgrade much in december
1:24:01and that was a very weird thing to hear people talk about was like referring to the fact that
1:24:09john stepped in for me and also i was like i think they compared me to johnny carston
1:24:14which was funny it was very funny to me but yeah that was like a strange thing but yes
1:24:20i'm here now you can find us on mastodon jason is that j snell on zeppelin flights i am at i mike
1:24:26i m y k e on mike.social you can find the show as upgrade at relay fm social you can watch video
1:24:32clips of the show there that we produce every week we have loads of really fun clips the best
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1:24:45where we are at upgrade relay i am on threads is that i mike i m y k e jason is at j snell
1:24:52j s n e double l thank you to our members who support us with upgrade plus thank you to our
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1:25:06say goodbye jason snow happy new year everybody