495: Nothing Can Possibly Go Wrong


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Real AFM, this is Upgrade, Episode 495 for January 15th, 2024.

00:00:17   Today's show is brought to you by Notion and DeleteMe.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley, I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason.

00:00:25   Hi, Mike, I love the energy. Whoa, wow. I'm excited for today

00:00:29   because definitely nothing can go wrong. Uh, okay. Why is that?

00:00:36   Well, I mean, I'm just referencing last week's episodes, which was, uh...

00:00:39   Oh, well, I mean, first off, things could totally go wrong this week, too, but yes,

00:00:44   last week we recorded on a Sunday because I had to travel, and on Monday morning Apple

00:00:50   released their press release about the Vision Pro coming out, thereby requiring us to make the,

00:00:56   I think, unprecedented decision to remove things from the episode and record new information to

00:01:04   insert to explain what happened, which is ouch. That's, uh, I did offer on my way out the door

00:01:09   to the airplane to, like, hop on with you and do, like, a quick back and forth, and you're like,

00:01:12   "I got it, I got it taken care of, it's fine." We caught about, um, 25 minutes from the episode,

00:01:19   and I know that people might out there might be like, "Oh, but why?" because it was us trying to

00:01:25   guess when the pre-orders might go up, and we spoke about it for a long time, and so it really didn't

00:01:31   make any sense, but luckily, I will say luckily it did actually happen before we published. That's the

00:01:36   one good part. Yeah. Uh, you know, because the way I feel about it, if something happened Monday

00:01:40   night or Tuesday morning, well, there's nothing we can do about it. We're always recording Monday

00:01:44   release on Mondays, that's it, but it's so rare that we record in advance like that, um, but we

00:01:49   did, and it came back to bite us, as these things sometimes do, but we're going to talk all about

00:01:53   the Vision Pro today. Got a lot of stuff to cover. Uh, if anything, I'm actually happy that we've had

00:01:59   seven days to digest this information, rather than we would have, like, had 20 minutes

00:02:04   last week. But we will start out with a Snell Talk question, as we do. First one, the only one,

00:02:11   this week comes from Brian, who says, "Do you make an effort to complete your Apple Watch stand goal?"

00:02:17   I mean, this is definitely in the category of things I think we've talked about before,

00:02:22   but the answer is no, mostly no. Every now and then, I think I turned all these alerts off,

00:02:28   but there was a, there was a time when I would get an alert or I would be paying attention,

00:02:32   I would realize I was one hour away from the stand goal, and I would get up and walk around and move

00:02:37   my arms and stuff, trying to go over the edge. But you know, I don't, I turned all those off.

00:02:42   I don't even get alerts about making goals or that you're about close to your goal anymore.

00:02:48   I just don't do it. I have stopped, I've gotten, I don't know when I did that, I don't even remember,

00:02:53   but like, I got off the Apple Watch nagging. I'm, this may not be a surprise because what we learned,

00:03:00   what we've learned over the last year especially, and like, talking to Stephen Hackett when he was

00:03:06   here, I am apparently somebody who is trying to keep things minimal in a lot of ways, in my,

00:03:15   in my Mac interface, you know, and stuff like that. I think this is in line with that, the idea

00:03:20   that I don't want to get bugged by stuff. And the Apple Watch, as much as part of what it's trying

00:03:27   to do is bug you, prod you to do better and all of that, I think my life is improved by getting less

00:03:36   of the bugs. I just kind of don't want the noise in my life. In fact, I'm going to write this up.

00:03:42   I mentioned it here, I think, or on some podcast and I haven't, I don't think written about it in

00:03:47   six colors, but one of the things that I've done that I really am happy with, I know we talked

00:03:52   about some of this, when I'm curling, when I'm at the curling club, I'm in a focus mode that's

00:03:58   based on location. That means that when I'm out on the ice, I don't have random texts coming in

00:04:02   from people who think, you know, Jason will see this and respond whenever. And I would see them

00:04:07   and I would respond with like a pre-baked Apple Watch reply. And then they would be like, oh,

00:04:13   Jason's engaging. I'm going to continue this conversation. It's like, I don't want to talk

00:04:16   to you right now. So I just have the focus mode and I don't see it until I'm off the ice.

00:04:20   And similarly, I used to get notifications that would light up my phone that I can see through

00:04:26   the glass while I was in the shower. And now I have a thing, I have a, when it connects to my

00:04:31   Bluetooth speaker in the shower, it puts me in do not disturb. I want to turn off the speaker when

00:04:36   I leave the shower, it exits do not disturb. And my life is better for it because I don't need to be,

00:04:43   I just don't need to be bugged in these contexts. So I'm really kind of leaning into that idea that

00:04:48   there are times when it's okay for almost everybody. I mean, I've got my family that can

00:04:54   break through and stuff, but there are times when I just want to be unreachable. Like I don't, and

00:05:01   you know what? I think a lot of it is from people who expect, like when I text people or send people

00:05:05   messages and mention them in Slack or Discords, I'm expecting it to be asynchronous. I'm expecting

00:05:10   it to be like, when they see this, they can respond. And I don't think it's rude for people

00:05:16   to send me texts. I really don't. Or push notifications, which is the other thing in the

00:05:20   shower where it's like, oh, here's a headline from a news organization. It's so distracting to get

00:05:26   that the screen lights up. Sometimes there's an actual audio disconnect if I've set the

00:05:30   notification wrong. I don't need it. I don't want it. So I've really tried to do more of that.

00:05:36   I'll catch up with you when I'm done with what I'm doing. Similarly, when I'm running, I have it set

00:05:41   now that my fitness focus turns on when I'm in a workout and I've set the fitness focus to

00:05:50   similarly prevent almost everybody from breaking through other than my family. Because although

00:05:55   it's nice to hear from people, when I'm running, all it's going to do is distract me. And if I do

00:06:02   try to reply, I'm going to do a canned reply or I'm suddenly tapping out a reply on my Apple Watch.

00:06:06   You know what? They can wait. They don't need to know that I'm running. They can wait until

00:06:11   20 minutes later and it'll be fine. So it's a long way to go to talk about Brian's question.

00:06:17   But I mean, because the simple answer is no. But the more complicated answer is I'm trying to drop

00:06:22   the noise out of my life from these. Because I like their times. I mean, most of the time,

00:06:26   the Apple Watch pushes notifications to me. I do want that feature, but I don't want it all the

00:06:32   time. There are times when I don't want it. And so I'm happy that Apple has made these abilities,

00:06:37   these focus modes. That's how I use focus modes basically is there are moments when I do not want

00:06:42   to be bothered. What about recording when you're recording podcasts and stuff? Do you have any kind

00:06:48   of focus mode for that? Yeah, all my automations now fire off a recording focus mode that similarly

00:06:57   strips back my limits who can contact me. Same reason. Like, again, if their close family needs

00:07:05   to do it, but if it's some other person, they're not going to get my attention. Yeah. Right. So

00:07:13   like if I'm messaging you about upgrade, but you're recording the incomparable, you shouldn't

00:07:17   be notified about that. You're busy with something else and it can wait, right? Like that's, yeah,

00:07:21   I think that's great. I really hope that. There's very little that anybody is going to send me that

00:07:25   needs my reaction while I'm recording a podcast. And if it is, it's going to be when it's an

00:07:30   emergency. And I know the people who are going to send me something that it's actually an emergency

00:07:36   that I need to deal with immediately and stop what I'm doing. And it's basically my wife and kids and

00:07:41   mom, and that's it. Nobody else gets through. So if you really want to get through during a podcast,

00:07:47   I guess, um, see if Jamie can send me something. Yeah. Well now I know if I ever really need you,

00:07:53   I've got to get to Jamie. Get to Jamie or Lauren or Julian. I just picked Jamie cause I thought it

00:07:59   was funny. Anyway. Uh, yeah. So that's it. I'm just trying to reduce the noise. Like, like at the,

00:08:04   at the right times, right? I think context, I think that's the whole point is like,

00:08:07   how do our devices know that there are times when I'm happy to get a push notification about

00:08:12   a, you know, an alert or something and how, and when not to, and especially for things like texts

00:08:21   or mentions in Slack where it's like the right thing to do is send me the text, right? The right

00:08:27   thing to do is send me the text. But as a human being, I react to the text with, oh, I've got to

00:08:32   field this. Now I've got a thing weighing me down. I've got a to do item. I was like, oh no, somebody

00:08:36   sent me a text. I need to respond. I need to look at it. And I'm very happy to have the computer say,

00:08:41   you know, be, be like my receptionist basically. And be like, Nope, sorry, Jason can't be bothered

00:08:46   right now. He'll get back to you when he's done with what he's doing. I like that.

00:08:51   If you would like to send in a snow talk question to help us open a future episode of the show,

00:08:57   just go to upgrade feedback.com and tick snow talk and send it in. We'll appreciate it. And thank you

00:09:02   to everybody that does. I have a couple of follow-up items for you, Jason. This first one

00:09:09   comes from Matt who said, I heard you mentioning Massimo. This is the company who Apple are currently

00:09:14   fighting with over the blood oxygen sensor. Uh, I heard you mentioned them being based out of Irvine,

00:09:19   California on the last episode. I worked just down the road from their headquarters and thought it

00:09:24   was interesting that their headquarters was used as stock industries in the first Iron Man movie.

00:09:29   And I looked at a picture of it. They have this kind of like round glass area. And I think that

00:09:33   was where they had the press conference where he's like, I am Iron Man. I think it was nice. So

00:09:38   that's fun. Little tidbit. Shout out to Irvine. I, I, I have spent so much time in Irvine because

00:09:43   my in-laws live there and have lived there as long as I've known my wife that, um, I, I wish I could,

00:09:50   here's, here's the Irvine tidbit I'll leave, which is, uh, our friend David Sparks. I've,

00:09:55   I've had lunch with him in Irvine many, many times. Very close to there too.

00:09:58   Okay. The Sparky lunch was, uh, usually in Irvine, not always, but there's a right by

00:10:04   Massimo headquarters. In fact, the spectrum center has a lot of places to eat. Anyway,

00:10:07   shout out to Orange County. Speaking of Massimo, Apple's work around for the blood oxygen sensor,

00:10:14   uh, with the patents that are being, um, what is it accused to be infringing on? Disputed. Disputed.

00:10:21   Disputed. Well, whatever. Yes. That Apple, Apple is supposedly infringing on Massimo's patents. So

00:10:26   they, they need to find a way. There was all this big story about like, Apple's got a software

00:10:30   workaround here. Oh, can't wait to see how cleverly Apple has decided to work around Massimo's patents.

00:10:35   Drum roll. So the workaround in software is just disabling. They just, they just, they disabled it.

00:10:44   So any new watch in the US will have this device turned off. This has been accepted by the US

00:10:56   customs agency. And I'm going to read now from chance Miller at nine to five Mac, who's been like

00:11:01   friend of the show, the guy reporting on this, saying we're also, this is a quote from chance.

00:11:06   We're also still waiting on the decision from the US appeals court on Apple's request to pause

00:11:11   the Apple watch ban throughout the entire duration of the appeals process. That decision could come

00:11:16   as soon as today. The ITC has already voiced its opposition to Apple's request. So there you go.

00:11:24   Uh, the moment it looks like if you, there may, I don't know if it's how it's actually going to

00:11:29   roll out or not, but like, this is the work around the mystical work around that had been discussed

00:11:35   was get rid of the feature, which is not great. Can you tell me, I saw you talking about this on

00:11:43   Mastodon. Uh, there's going to be some, there's some improvements coming to Mac OS that will make

00:11:48   the installation of some applications a bit more smooth. Can you tell me about this?

00:11:54   Yeah. So Apple has a lot of security policies. We've established this and Apple Silicon has

00:12:00   brought some more security approaches to Mac OS and it has had some very weird fallout, including,

00:12:06   I think most notably that audio hijack tool we use all the time, uh, just to step you really quickly

00:12:13   for those who don't know how you install audio hijack the way the way you do it is you install

00:12:21   audio hijack and then it says, Hey, I need you to restart and hold down the power button

00:12:32   and then go into recovery mode and then go to a menu in recovery mode that is set secure.

00:12:44   It's like the security utility. And then in there you have to say allow, and it's scary,

00:12:49   allow security, uh, lower security levels, scary, like lower secure. Why would I want to be less

00:12:57   secure? All to allow audio hijacks extension to run. So then you reboot and you come back,

00:13:04   you know, finally our long nightmare is over and audio hijack says, great, now we're going to add

00:13:10   the extension and, and, and you need to approve the extension. And then after you approve the

00:13:17   extension, the system says, got a reboot. So you reboot again, a normal reboot this time.

00:13:28   And so we've rebooted into, into the security system then rebooted again to get back to the

00:13:35   level where it says to reboot a third time. So three reboots all in all to get you to functional

00:13:41   audio hijack. It's not great. Good news in Rogue Amoeba's end of the year wrap-up blog,

00:13:51   they dropped this tidbit, which is they have apparently, I don't think they said this,

00:13:58   it's clear they've been working with Apple about this because how could they not? Apple put in this

00:14:02   thing in 2020 that costs, costs, uh, three reboots and a scary security dialogue that has to be

00:14:10   lowered in order to get their product to work and multiple ones of their products. I think sound

00:14:16   sources like this too, like a bunch of their products are like this and not just, it's all

00:14:19   these Rogue Amoeba products. Um, the good news is if you install more than one, the work is done

00:14:24   and you can just install the rest and you don't have to reboot more times. Um, so clearly they've

00:14:29   been talking to Apple about this. And the other reason that I think that Apple is involved here

00:14:33   is because if Rogue Amoeba could fix this themselves, they would have fixed this in 2020

00:14:38   and it is now 2024. However, I have some other news, which is there is in Mac OS 14.2,

00:14:50   a new permission appeared in security and privacy. And I know what you're saying out there. Oh boy,

00:14:56   more permissions to grant on Mac OS. And yes, I, yeah, I know, I know, but it's the, uh,

00:15:04   the screen recording is now called screen recording and system audio. And there are two separate

00:15:09   things. And one of them is screen recording and system audio. Bartender uses that keyboard. Maestro

00:15:14   uses that. It's the thing that you use if you're trying to capture screens and shot users is going

00:15:20   to use this too. Like they're another developer that I saw that saying that they can get rid of

00:15:23   that permission now. Yeah, exactly. Cause it's like, you get to look at the screen, right?

00:15:28   Like keyboard, my starting to look at the screen. Cause I literally have macros where it looks at

00:15:31   something on the screen and then clicks on it. Right. Like, but there's new now in 14.2,

00:15:36   there's a new thing that says system audio recording only and nothing is in there.

00:15:42   None of my apps are using that, but spider sense tells me that that's what's going on here is that

00:15:51   apple has, and maybe, maybe it's buggy or something, you know, maybe they need to wait for an update

00:15:56   or something like that. And that's why this is not out, but it sure looks like apple has built

00:16:02   in a brand new permission that is, Hey, capture system audio, which does that sound familiar?

00:16:08   That sounds a lot like rogue Amoeba. So it sounds like there's a long way of saying it sounds like

00:16:14   something between apple doing stuff and rogue Amoeba being able to adapt it. And presumably

00:16:18   some other apps as well, that according to rogue Amoeba's blog post, you'll be able to install

00:16:24   audio hijack without even doing an administrator password. Apparently all you have to do is say,

00:16:30   allow amazing. And that a couple of their apps that do extra hinky stuff. So like sound source,

00:16:38   which is routing sounds around and loopback, which is creating like virtual inputs. Those apparently

00:16:44   you'll need to install a helper with an administrator password. They have a new helper

00:16:50   app that's replacing their old helper app. They had ACE and now, and this is arc, but it's no reboot

00:16:56   required. It's literally just, you have to install the helper and you move on. So, uh, the good news

00:17:04   is one of the worst user experiences for a set of apps on that go S will go away. And the bad news is

00:17:11   it took three or four years for this to happen, but at least it sounds like it's about to happen

00:17:17   from my perspective. I don't care how long it took. I'm just happy they did it. Like this was

00:17:21   not, I actually thought that we were more likely going to get to a point where this was, would not

00:17:25   be possible anymore because it seemed like it had gotten so complicated. Like I was nervous

00:17:30   that Apple would just like restrict him, restrict him, restricting right. Until it was like,

00:17:35   you know, the walls are closing in until they just closed completely. So I'm really happy that,

00:17:41   you know, we have a lot of criticism, especially for the, whoever is deciding on the way to

00:17:45   permissions work on Mac iOS these days. Um, but this is a triple thumbs up from me, right? Like,

00:17:53   great. Make this easier. It makes it easier for users. It makes it easier for the developers

00:17:58   because they don't feel like they're having to like try and find a way to prove to their users

00:18:03   that they're not actually a virus. Uh, and so like, you know, the steps in which they explain

00:18:09   to you like developers have to explain to you to do this, like especially with Rogamiba, they do

00:18:13   the best they can, but if you don't know the app, it sounds sketchy as hell, right? Right. It sounds

00:18:20   like something that a hacker would do to take over your computer. Now I need you to reboot and lower

00:18:24   your security systems. Wait a second. Yeah. I just want to recall something from YouTube. Why have I

00:18:30   got it? Yeah. Is this some sort of scam? Yeah. And the answer is no. So what the line that Paul

00:18:36   Kofasas, the CEO of Rogamiba put in his story is there's no doubt that this has deterred people

00:18:43   from using our products. And I think that's absolutely right. I, there's no doubt at all,

00:18:48   because it's scary. Like this is, we talk about this about Apple using the, um, the,

00:18:54   the app store communication thing in, uh, in the EU, which may be coming very soon, right? This

00:19:01   idea that they're going to allow sideloading and, and the line that I think I gave last year was

00:19:06   this app may kill you, right? Like the idea is you can turn it on, but you're going to have to get

00:19:11   through scare text that says, don't turn this on, right? Turning this on, you may die. So don't.

00:19:19   And then you go turn it on and it's like, are you sure you want to die? Yes. Okay. It's on right.

00:19:25   Well, this is that, this is that for the last four years for Rogamiba is, uh, we, we, we swear we're

00:19:33   honest here when we tell you that it lowers your security and it, it won't actually lower your

00:19:37   security. And we're not actually a, well, the other thing that it implies for technical people,

00:19:41   I've heard this from a bunch of very smart technical people is, well, they're, they're

00:19:44   doing a kernel extension and it's like, it's not, it's using the mechanism to install a kernel

00:19:49   extension, but the, but it's not, it's just the only mechanism that Apple allows that lets them

00:19:54   install their thing, even though it's not doing what the mechanism is designed for. Like, it's

00:20:00   just ridiculous. So anyway, this is, it's something that is, I think materially hurt their business

00:20:04   for three years. Uh, and it's bad for users. And this is a tool that I, a bunch of tools I

00:20:08   recommend to people, and then this gets inflicted on them. So I'm going to be very happy when, uh,

00:20:15   this era ends. Jason, as you know, Upgrade Plus listeners, they get this show ad free,

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00:21:22   I'm working on is an email newsletter for Cortex brand and one of the things I love about Notion

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00:22:44   support of this show and all of Relay FM. All right so we got to talk about the Vision Pro.

00:22:51   I want to do this in two chunks I want to talk about the nuts and bolts of the announcement

00:22:58   then I want to talk about the reaction that I've seen online that I'm sure you've seen too just

00:23:06   the wide reactions that have been going on in the past week so very quick it's February 2nd is when

00:23:13   the product will be available in Apple stores and online with pre-orders this Friday January 19th

00:23:19   so it was just a press release there was no event of any kind this is something we and you were

00:23:23   questioning a lot on the last episode no video or anything as of yet just a press release do you

00:23:29   have any further reflections on that approach? Well I know that it was in the spectrum of things

00:23:38   I thought were possible I know it was at the other end of the spectrum from what you expected

00:23:43   which is interesting because when we talked about this last week you were like it's going to be an

00:23:47   event and they're going to invite people and I was like I don't know because it's a you know

00:23:52   the reason you invite people is to try it out and trying it out is not something that you can do when

00:23:59   you invite a huge number of people to one place at one time because they we learned in June they have

00:24:04   to spread that out so I thought it would be a different kind of approach I didn't expect it to

00:24:09   be this minimal but it does go it is in line with what we talked about about the fact that the the

00:24:14   supply is so limited that Apple wants people to know that it's doing this I think to a certain

00:24:22   degree but it doesn't want to drive demand too much because they don't have supply so they don't

00:24:29   they don't want nobody they don't want to scare people off and say don't buy it but honestly if

00:24:33   they did nothing I think that they would people would buy this right because there's the whole

00:24:37   group of people who are really into this who know about it and want it so they so they didn't add

00:24:45   for example they didn't add during the national championship game the college football national

00:24:49   championship game Monday night they didn't add that was a reference to their that that hello

00:24:56   ad with the iPhone where it's clips from movies where people answering the phone that was at the

00:25:00   Oscars this was people putting goggles on basically or glasses and and that was an awareness ad right

00:25:08   that was really just like get ready in fact I think that was what it said get ready there's

00:25:13   a new thing coming from Apple and the fact is we all think oh but we've known about this since June

00:25:18   but one of the lessons I learned really early on in my journalism career my Apple journalism career

00:25:23   especially was nobody remembers anything especially people who don't care or don't care that much so

00:25:28   like people who subscribe to Macworld magazine didn't really care or know or or let it stick in

00:25:36   their mind what the features of Mac OS were going to be when they when they got announced in June

00:25:42   because you would tell them in September or October and they'd be like whoa new features

00:25:48   because until it's real until they can put it on their device it's it's just you know yeah whatever

00:25:54   and and they they either don't pay attention or even if they do that it just passes through their

00:25:58   mind so vision pro is the same way so Apple says ah get ready they're starting to re-engage it's

00:26:03   going to be interesting to see where it goes but in terms of the effort put into the press material

00:26:10   which going out to the press right the press is paying attention and the press does have a memory

00:26:15   it was not zero effort right like it's a new press release but it's a lot of stuff we knew

00:26:21   it's almost everything is from June there are some new tidbits in there they talk about games

00:26:28   they're more third-party details it's very funny because a lot of Apple's PR they just like to list

00:26:34   developers with software like you'll get it's like oh it's a new MacBook Pro and it will call out by

00:26:39   name certain games that they're pushing or certain apps it's a very it was Resident Evil now it's

00:26:46   Death Stranding and uh Liza P and like Fantastical is in the press release right like they they will

00:26:53   cherry pick some things that give the impression of third-party support and utility in ways that

00:26:59   they find valuable and so like there are some games mentioned in vision pro that where they

00:27:04   really didn't touch vision pro gaming other than to show like an iPad game before there are some

00:27:09   games that are mentioned but mostly it's the same stuff and media and what really got me is assets

00:27:15   like the pictures and stuff are I mean I didn't check I didn't do a like full-on conspiracy board

00:27:24   they may not be all exactly the same images from June but if not they're from the same sessions

00:27:29   they're literally of the same models in the same locations and that surprised me but maybe that's

00:27:36   just Apple's attitude is like we're just going to replay our introduction because we're still

00:27:40   introducing and there's no reason for us to do a second shoot obviously they like those materials

00:27:45   right they didn't look back six months ago and say you know I really didn't like that photo shoot

00:27:50   let's do another photo shoot that didn't happen they did that photo shoot and that's what we've

00:27:54   got it's the same imagery and all of that so that I find that really interesting you know obviously

00:28:01   there's going to be because we've seen it now with the that commercial there's going to be some

00:28:06   launch stuff presumably they are seating reviewers you know early embargo reviewers with this in fact

00:28:13   there was a report that they're like reviewers will get a demo and then a week later they'll

00:28:17   get another demo and only then will they be sent a review unit which is kind of wild but okay sign

00:28:23   me up by the way apple sign me up I'm ready so am I yeah yeah mike is too but me first but mike is

00:28:31   good too uh anyway well I I that's so there's gonna be hype and there's gonna be buzz but like it's

00:28:38   interesting to see apple like how the apple manages it and our first glimpse of it is this announcement

00:28:43   which was as low-key as it gets I've seen a lot of people say things along the lines of this

00:28:51   announcement means that apple is not confident in this product I'm not sure if I agree with that

00:29:00   sentiment I see how someone could get there but I I don't I don't draw the cause and effect there

00:29:08   because of something like the fact that this is supposedly so little which we'll talk about later

00:29:12   on in the episode some reports and that but it's the line they have to walk because they don't want

00:29:15   to not talk about it and they do want to show some level of confidence in it that's why they put it

00:29:20   in an ad that is a direct reference to the iphone ad and they put it in one of the most watched tv

00:29:26   events of the year the college national championship game as the debut they took a big like they did

00:29:32   with the oscars right they took a big stage and and debuted that ad at the same time this product

00:29:39   is not priced in a way that regular people are ever gonna buy it so if they create demand most of

00:29:44   most of the demand they create through marketing is immediately going to hit on the price and that's

00:29:48   going to be the end of the equation right that they hit on the price and they're like oh forget

00:29:51   it that's ridiculous I thought it would be 500 right and it's like well we all know that it's

00:29:55   not but remember all of our we went over it like years of trying to grapple with the reports on the

00:30:01   price and it was still higher than that like imagine experiencing that entire journey in one

00:30:06   second right that's what people who don't know about vision pro but are curious are going to

00:30:11   discover it's like it costs what and they're going to walk away so you kind of you know you're walking

00:30:16   this line where you want people to be aware of it but you kind of want to set the expectation that

00:30:20   it's for the future apple's working on the future and this is the first one and I think if your

00:30:25   apple ideally you want to create an attitude that is sort of like oh apple's doing this interesting

00:30:29   thing maybe this is the future maybe I'll buy one in a few years when it's cheaper and better

00:30:35   because you know technology that's always what it is I think that's what they're going for

00:30:39   I'll also say that those reactions are exactly what we said would be the reactions last year

00:30:46   which is the fact that this product is not available in volume is going to mean that it has a

00:30:53   rollout that is unusual for apple products and it is going to allow people to say uh-oh because

00:30:59   you could also say uh-oh apple didn't sell even a million of them in its first year and somebody

00:31:04   will write that story it's a flop and it's like apple couldn't make a million of them in its first

00:31:09   year right that that's the truth of this is is it's not it's an overpriced product for the market

00:31:14   because most people just don't want a 3500 thing but they're making so few of them that demand will

00:31:20   probably still outstrip supply so it's a weird it's just a weird place so I'm not surprised people are

00:31:26   having takes like that but I think that I think that those are people who want to have those takes

00:31:30   and the weird circumstances allow them to have them but it's entirely predictable. So the storage

00:31:37   starts at 256 gigabytes I've considered this a bit of a heartbreak that there are going to be more

00:31:43   expensive models I wish they would have just had one model we don't know any more about that yet

00:31:48   we don't we don't know any more about it I I'm surprised by this I'm surprised that they're

00:31:55   doing SKUs for storage because like how much more complexity does this product need if you don't

00:32:01   have many of them why are you splitting them up you know like the apple tv how do you communicate

00:32:07   why people need storage on this 256 gigabytes I mean is it you can load it full of movies is it

00:32:14   you can load it full of apps is there I mean I've always sort of assumed that this is a very cloud

00:32:19   focused product yeah you could use it on an airplane and and but you know apple's got a

00:32:23   whole system of caching cloud files and stuff like that I don't know I don't know like is it a

00:32:29   computer right like am I going to use it like a computer so therefore I need good storage on it

00:32:34   like I don't know now they've given me options I feel like I feel like I can't go with 256

00:32:40   about I need to see what the prices are and I don't know what they are uh there are questions

00:32:45   around prescriptions so like you know how the lenses are going to work if you have prescription

00:32:49   lenses you need to provide a prescription so after you if you place a pre-order you then upload a

00:32:55   prescription to apple yes I like that they're doing it that way around not making like the rush

00:33:00   for ordering that there will inevitably be like right you're right so you just place your order

00:33:06   and then deal with the stuff nor are they going to Zeiss and saying hey go over to Zeiss's website

00:33:12   because that's what happened with my my meta quest right is that I had to go to zenny optical

00:33:17   and then and they had a link to the product but then I'm on zenny optical and I have to order

00:33:21   through them and here apple sounds like they're going to be like we will take your prescription

00:33:26   and and then and then the Zeiss lenses and there must be some sort of hand out there because I

00:33:30   think Zeiss is licensed to do prescription eyewear right so they they use their partner but they've

00:33:34   they seem to have tried to streamline it as much as possible so that you don't have to make two

00:33:39   separate orders and all of that even though they may come as two separate orders you don't have to

00:33:43   make all of that maybe you do I mean we don't know but my imagining here is apple will do everything

00:33:50   within the law to make it that it's as smooth as possible to order the lenses that go in it

00:33:58   for prescription lenses and that may also be a reason by the way why international rollout is

00:34:04   more complicated is because in every market they need to deal with potentially limitations of

00:34:12   prescription eyewear and if they need a partner in that market and some markets they might not

00:34:16   but some markets they will and in the us you know you have to in prescription it's a prescription

00:34:23   you know prescription eyewear there is there is regulation around this so but that's why they're

00:34:28   using Zeiss as a partner when you're making your order you need a device around with face id

00:34:34   that you will use to assess which light shield that you're using I'm expecting that there's

00:34:39   some kind of thing where you could order on a mac and it will prompt you on your iphone to use the

00:34:44   updated apple store app intriguing so they're gonna have to have that around you maybe well

00:34:50   if you're on a mac you don't have a face id update so yeah they would they would just say order this

00:34:54   from your iphone this goes back to a thing that I was told in June at the tent when we were waiting

00:35:00   for or actually when I was getting my face scanned and I think afterward a pr person said to me

00:35:05   the apple store app will get updated to do the face scan yeah and that as apparently already

00:35:12   happened that there was just an app update yeah that enabled this so there you go I think that

00:35:18   you can order it on a mac though but like then it says it says have your iphone or ipad nearby so

00:35:24   like you can order on your phone of course but if you order on a different machine that you would

00:35:29   provide the scan on a separate device it's the way that I read it but hmm yes we'll find out uh I saw

00:35:36   Joanna Stern did a good post of just like detailing what's in the box so the solo knit band which is

00:35:41   the one that we know right the one that was on all the images with the frills and the little dial

00:35:46   then this one's called the dual loop band which is one that has a top strap now interestingly when

00:35:53   we tried it out we had a combo of the two so it was the solo knit band and then a dual loop that

00:35:59   went over the top and I'm hoping yeah that you we will be able to combine the two but we'll see

00:36:06   I don't know my understanding is that the solo knit band is more for shorter sessions 30 minutes

00:36:14   or whatever and that the dual loop band and is and is easily adjustable and the dual loop band is

00:36:20   more complicated to adjust you sort of have to slide things around and all that may like take

00:36:24   it off the solo knit band has the dial you can kind of like leave it on your head and just move

00:36:29   it around and do the dial to adjust it dual loop band more complicated but apparently better for

00:36:36   a long duration use if you're going to use this for two hours or four hours or whatever that the

00:36:40   dual loop band is a better choice for that because it will be provide more support and and I will

00:36:47   we'll see but that's what I've been hearing you also get your light seal light shield you get two

00:36:54   cushions for it I don't really know what that means I'm assuming maybe it's like the soft part

00:36:59   that you can take out and clean I guess the actual part that touches your face but I genuinely don't

00:37:04   know my understanding is the cushions too are a it's a like fit thing where it's like see how this

00:37:10   fits okay put on another cushion and now see how this fits that you're you're basically the

00:37:14   light seal is whatever large or or small and then there's like the the cushions are there to give

00:37:21   you other ways to fit it because they're they're concerned about fit and they know that some people

00:37:25   will need more cushion and some people will need less you get a cover for the front front of the

00:37:32   device a polishing cloth amazing oh boy I have some important breaking news about the polishing

00:37:38   cloth because I know the the sickos out there care about the polishing cloth I love it we

00:37:43   it's another space gray situation mike my understanding is that the polishing cloth

00:37:48   and the vision pro is a different polishing cloth than the one that people know and love

00:37:53   that you use for a display watch out for these things on ebay my sources this is why people

00:38:00   have recognized me as a universal inside source about apple which is not a thing they recognize

00:38:04   me for is I come with the knowledge I come with the deep knowledge that there are different

00:38:10   polishing cloths people so this is specific for this device this cloth I well I don't know that

00:38:18   it's possible that there have been different polishing cloths all along in history it's

00:38:25   possible that I don't know but um yes word has reached me from important sources very important

00:38:31   sources that the polishing cloth and the vision pro isn't the same polishing cloth as in some other

00:38:36   products yep can't reveal my sources mike but boy we're breaking the news here watch out for the

00:38:42   rumor blogs you know we're going to be all over them today they're going to reblog me and they're

00:38:46   going to be like jason snow has yeah that'll be a heck of a headline polishing cloth might be

00:38:50   different and then also the battery and all the cables that you need of course will be in the box

00:38:55   uh you mentioned media so apple of claim have said over 150 3d movies will be available along with

00:39:03   you mentioned games they they reference something I've not seen before spatial games so there will

00:39:08   be games on apple arcade that you play just like a window floating out there right but then there

00:39:13   are also games which are spatial games uh and they named game room what the golf and super fruit

00:39:19   ninja which is such a great name and that one I can imagine will be a lot of fun fruit ninja and

00:39:24   I'm intrigued about what the golf because the team who behind what the golf have a vr game called

00:39:30   what the bat which is on quest which is really fun or yeah meta quest which is really fun and

00:39:37   I thought that they would bring what the bat here but they didn't they've made a golf game it seems

00:39:40   called what the golf which is a special game see what that's all about yeah I mean what the golfs

00:39:45   the game that they've done but they're apparently doing a spatial version of what the golf which

00:39:48   yeah I mean they've done very good what the car what the car and then they did what the bat on

00:39:53   on meta quest so they've got some experience doing doing uh ar and vr games and I don't know whether

00:39:58   these spatial games are going to be like immersive games or are they like you have it scans your room

00:40:05   and it puts a golf hole somewhere and you have to do something I don't know I mean you got to assume

00:40:10   you can I think we can easily assume what super fruit ninja is right like you're swiping your

00:40:14   hands and you're cutting the fruit right like yes like chopping them yeah who knows I mean I'm

00:40:20   intrigued about these though because you know like these these are games that they can't really take

00:40:25   but they can't take advantage of a controller like I'm really intrigued to see what the specific

00:40:30   gaming story looks like on this device that that is an intrigue to me yeah and we saw a clip from

00:40:39   avatar the way of water we did on our in our demo so you know 3d movies is a thing that has been

00:40:44   obviously going to happen and uh so this is more kind of confirmation of that that apple is going

00:40:51   to be loading up you know 3d content in the store I imagine there'll be more over time because

00:40:55   there are so many 3d theatrical releases that could be put on the device as well and it's a

00:41:02   pretty nice experience um I think uh yeah like um the super mario's super mario brothers movie

00:41:10   which was a big hit I think is going to be the demo movie in stores so we'll see that'd be fun

00:41:16   it's a it's a me I would go with avatar but you know okay I've held off watching

00:41:22   the avatar movie until I can watch it on this device because I hadn't seen it and I saw that

00:41:29   clip and I was like yeah I'm not gonna watch that until yeah I can I can watch it in this way it's

00:41:35   gonna be amazing same so Minchi Quo's reported that there is by his estimate an availability

00:41:44   of 60 to 80 000 units for launch day so if you want to get a launch day unit you will be one of

00:41:52   somewhere between 60 to 80 000 and I see that number I don't know if that's enough I don't

00:41:58   know if it's too many it's impossible to know at this stage I think like is that a lot is that not

00:42:04   a lot we just we have no idea right that's almost 300 per retail store if they got evenly distributed

00:42:11   we know they're going to be a lot of online orders yeah like is that yeah I don't know this is going

00:42:16   to be the mystery it's like what's the volume like I feel pretty confident that they're going

00:42:20   to sell every one of these that they make if they're they will at least this year right but

00:42:24   but right I would imagine that there's an enormous amount of demand from people who want to be on the

00:42:29   cutting edge and developers alone that there will be enormous demand up front is enormous more than

00:42:36   80 000 I don't know that's the thing right like I agree with you my guess is yes my guess is yes

00:42:42   okay my guess is yes I believe that they will sell all of them on the first day I'm just not sure if

00:42:49   that's within two minutes or six hours yes I think that's a good question I would imagine that if you

00:42:56   hear about this the next day you won't be able to order one but and they may hold some back for

00:43:04   retail right like that might happen but we'll see I don't know but that might not include very say

00:43:12   this 80 000 the way that quote was said it's like that's that first day because then they've got two

00:43:17   weeks to send more in right they can keep making them they can and have them in for launch day

00:43:22   probably will yeah keep making them I think that's one of the benefits of the time period that

00:43:27   they've given themselves because from like when you can order them to win their um all right but

00:43:34   then also maybe not all of this 80 000 have even made it to the us yet right so that might be the

00:43:39   other thing that's true mark german has some details about the try on experience that people

00:43:44   will be able to book in for from launch day onwards so mark describes it as a 25 minute

00:43:49   long experience that begins with scanning your face for the seal with the phone as well as using

00:43:54   a device to check a prescription of glasses this is what we did this is how it worked for us yeah

00:43:59   we saw the drop you drop drop the glasses in and it checks and my understanding and you're like

00:44:05   well wait a second but I have to order my glasses from Zeiss no there will be a selection of uh

00:44:14   of glasses of optical inserts behind the scenes in the store and they will try to do the closest

00:44:23   match and there's apparently a limit where they'll be like we don't have a good match for you but

00:44:28   they will try and I think the way this is going to be interesting for people who are buying in

00:44:31   the store because if you want the experience you want to go out the door ready to go you're going

00:44:36   to need to take the the adjusters that are in the store and they may not be as close as what you get

00:44:42   from Zeiss because Zeiss is going to make it to your specific prescription so you might have to

00:44:47   decide do I want to walk out with a vision pro but not really use it for a week or whatever it is

00:44:54   until the Zeiss lenses come or do I want to take a prescription that's not quite right that's going

00:45:00   to be an interesting question but yeah that's how it works is they are going to stock I don't want

00:45:04   to know how hard this is going to be on Apple store employees to have a large number of uh

00:45:11   of different prescriptions behind the scenes but they're apparently going to do that so that's how

00:45:16   it's going to work in store they drop your glasses in they read the prescription and then they go and

00:45:21   find the closest match there's a slight detail from this uh Mark Gorman does say that like if

00:45:26   you buy online for in-store pickup and if you buy online too there is an element of like with the

00:45:32   Apple watches where they're like putting your pack together right so like they get your order and it's

00:45:37   like right you need this light seal you need these glasses so like even from like store assembly you

00:45:43   don't like what will be picked up in a store if you order it to a store it's not like your box is

00:45:47   sent right it's like there's a bunch of boxes that they're putting together and putting them in a bag

00:45:52   lots of vision pros lots of light seals lots of cushions and lots of lenses in the back so going

00:45:59   back to the demo experience it seems again like pretty close to the experience that we had in June

00:46:05   so there'll be like an onboarding and interface explanation and the person that you're doing it

00:46:09   with will have an ipad where they can see what you can see which we saw they kind of walk through the

00:46:14   eye tracking with people you'll look at images both regular ones panoramic ones and spatial images

00:46:20   then there's a demo of safari and the productivity apps then immersive video so this feels very much

00:46:25   like what we did yeah my understanding is it's it's a it's a version of what we did sort of

00:46:30   slimmed down to be 20-ish minutes in the headset yeah in a presumably 30-minute appointment and

00:46:38   mark says quote the goal of the demos is to give users an experience that's compelling but not

00:46:43   exhausting ideally leaving them itching for more yeah and we know we we went through that experience

00:46:48   and we were imagining slightly a slightly shorter experience than what we went through

00:46:53   but a very a very similar thing where they're getting you know they're getting some some

00:46:59   productivity and they're they're you know getting comfortable with the gestures

00:47:02   and then they have you know a movie and a panorama and a 3d you know a spatial photo right like all

00:47:11   the stuff that we saw i would say if you listen to this show book yourself in for one of these

00:47:17   you should do do yourself a favor it's great experience no no no money required right you

00:47:22   should book in for this 30 minutes it's gonna these are gonna be hard to come by because i don't know

00:47:26   how many of these slots they're gonna have available because keep in mind it's one customer

00:47:30   for 30 minutes it's literally one-to-one because it's a customer and an apple store employee with

00:47:36   an ipad to see you know like it was with us to see what you're looking at so that they can help you

00:47:42   and they guide you through the process it's pretty i mean we had two people right we had a

00:47:45   guider and also like a pr keeper and both of those people were were in the room with us but this will

00:47:50   be a one-to-one of a store person and you for half an hour so it's pretty this is pretty labor

00:47:56   intensive for apple for for those people arguing that apple uh isn't really behind this product

00:48:01   this is pretty serious stuff mark german also says the belkin are making a battery clip which i just

00:48:06   love we're gonna clip those things to our belts baby gonna be walking around but this is sensible

00:48:11   because like that thing needs to go somewhere and it can go in your pocket or if you don't want to

00:48:16   put it in your pocket you could maybe clip it to your belt or clip it to something clip it to a

00:48:20   belt even if you weren't planning on wearing one sure somebody else's belt if you want you could

00:48:25   but they just have to follow you around if you're going to move yeah yeah it'll be awkward this

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00:50:31   this show and relay fm so now i want to talk about the reactions and i've tried to pick out some

00:50:41   things that i've been seeing online pick out some things from places i ask people in our discord to

00:50:46   share me their hot takes and i took the kind of idea there because i've said this to a few people

00:50:50   privately i'm going to say on this show this press release i'm pretty sure people are losing their

00:50:56   minds over it and it is really interesting to me to see the variety of takes that i've been coming

00:51:04   across online i don't know if i have ever seen the amount of angst and doubt and anger so wide

00:51:12   in our community is i have from reactions to this product and it which is surprising to me because

00:51:18   it's not like we didn't know this was happening and so like it's weird to me now to see what i've

00:51:23   been seeing so much i've seen people say it's a 3500 dev kit like i've been seeing that so much

00:51:31   and we'll get into some of the reasons why people are saying that but i think for me personally like

00:51:36   a top line thing about this is like i'm seeing a lot of people saying oh i can't justify the cost

00:51:42   of this that's fine like just don't buy it like it's okay well to not buy this right yeah i mean

00:51:48   we've we've talked about this before there are people who get really mad when apple makes a

00:51:54   product that they don't want yeah like deeply offended like apple should only make products

00:52:00   and we've seen this in all sorts of ways right where where there's a a new mac laptop and people

00:52:05   get really mad because it's not the one that they want it's a different one it's like ah that macbook

00:52:09   here and it's like it's it's a very weird bit of psychology right of people who are upset that

00:52:15   apple also makes products that they don't want or even weirder that apple makes products they

00:52:20   actually do want but not in you know not in the way that they want or not for the price that they

00:52:26   want and i understand it like you should like what you like i don't always understand the the

00:52:31   the mindset behind being just mad like mad that i can't buy it like okay i mean i get it it's very

00:52:39   expensive but also if you don't want it like that's fine that's that's fine i get it this is a long

00:52:46   a lot of people wanted the first iphone it was too expensive a lot of people on the first mac and it

00:52:51   was too expensive like it it happens it still happens in this it will come down over time

00:52:57   but for now it is that as for the 3500 dev kit i mean i know i know the specific post that you're

00:53:04   referring to when you say that honestly jason i've i've seen lots more than once i've seen it

00:53:10   everywhere okay well i'm thinking of a specific post but here's what i would say it is true from

00:53:17   a certain point of view because a lot of the people who are going to buy this are going to be

00:53:22   developers who want in on this platform that's absolutely true however it's also not true

00:53:29   probably probably in the sense that there is going to be software for it and there are going to be

00:53:34   these other kind of experiences like movies for it and so i don't think that the early adopters

00:53:40   of this are going to feel like it's a completely barren wasteland that said will it appear barren

00:53:47   compared to where this platform will probably be in a couple of years sure i think that's true but

00:53:53   i think we don't really know what the third-party content and third-party app story is going to be

00:53:58   i think it's right to be apprehensive and say given that a lot of developers have never touched

00:54:02   the hardware at all most other developers have only touched it for a very short amount of time

00:54:07   in like a lab somewhere that a lot of developers are reluctant to put their software out for this

00:54:13   thing unseen and so when you if you get it week one you may find that a lot of software just isn't

00:54:20   there yet and does that make it kind of a developer kit where it's a product only of interest to

00:54:25   developers sort of but again i think there will be software out there i think that there's the

00:54:30   max screen sharing connectivity stuff and i think there's all the 3d content like especially movies

00:54:36   that it's not it's a little it's a little far-fetched to just say it's just a dev kit

00:54:42   but it will have some element of that of like i think a huge i said it earlier this is early

00:54:48   adopters and developers who are going to be the people who buy the first 500 000 of these things

00:54:52   i think and and that's like early adopters by i mean by definition they're early adopters but

00:54:57   you know what i mean it's the people who are like i can spend the money i want to live on the cutting

00:55:01   edge and bless those people i mean it's it's me like i'm one of those people like i've been saving

00:55:09   money aside putting money aside for six months to buy one of these things and i would have been that

00:55:12   person even if i wasn't doing what i do it's one of the reasons i do what i do is because i've been

00:55:16   that person right like it's something i care about i care about new technology i want to experience

00:55:21   new technology i think there might have even been an argument because we talked last year about

00:55:25   developer kit early like a year ago more than a year ago maybe about is this just going to be a

00:55:30   developer kit because i kept saying you know they could just ship this thing as a developer kit and

00:55:36   say we're going to spend the first year building it and then i think what the conversation ended

00:55:40   up being is well what if they ship it and they don't call it a developer kit but you know we

00:55:47   were like will people get the wrong idea i was like well you know what 3500 gives people the

00:55:51   right idea about it which is it's probably not for them and it lets the people who want to be out on

00:55:57   the cutting edge be out there and that's why it keeps reminding me of the early days of computers

00:56:02   because the early days of personal computers so i was like i grew up i'm born in 1970 so i grew up

00:56:07   as a kid when the first personal computers came to schools and stuff and i can and eventually to our

00:56:15   homes and i can tell you as a as a kid who lived through that era where it was like we got to get

00:56:23   these kids in front of computers because computers are the future and you know what they were right

00:56:27   they were totally right um it was like this in the sense that they were incredibly expensive

00:56:35   there wasn't a lot of software for them and everybody was asking what do i even do with

00:56:39   this it was like this is the future we got to get this in front of the kids and then there was like

00:56:43   the record scratch because there were records back then too and it's like wait a second what do we do

00:56:47   with this what what what do we actually do with it and they're like yeah you could balance your

00:56:52   checkbook it's like yeah i could do that in my checkbook there were checks back then too

00:56:56   boy that was a long time ago and then and they'd be like oh well how about recipes the history of

00:57:02   the computer industry is attempts to get people to put recipes into software like is this is not

00:57:08   like i use mela i was i was making stuff with mela um great app yesterday but like i had a mac app

00:57:15   before that i had apple 2 app before that probably had like a commodore pet app before that like

00:57:19   people have been trying to find ways um in fact the word that we all now use which is app

00:57:26   software application people were desperate in the early days to find any way you could apply

00:57:33   software to make a computer useful and for regular people in a home and it was hard i mean you see

00:57:42   the echoes of it now with imac sitting on kitchen islands but like it was a hard thing to do and

00:57:48   this time reminds me of that which is you can pay a lot of money to get a thing that nobody

00:57:54   really knows what it's going to be but it might be the future and nobody really knows what the

00:57:59   software is going to be there's no killer app yet like it's very similar and i'm oh that's why i'm

00:58:05   okay in principle with apple putting this thing out as a product because the way it's going to go

00:58:10   we know it's expensive we know there aren't that many of them at least and and it gives the

00:58:15   developers who are out there some people some customers to use their products by not making

00:58:22   a developer kit so instead of it being like door closed to non-developers it's more like an old

00:58:27   school tech product which is it's early days if you want to spend a lot of money to be one of the

00:58:33   first one on your block to have one of these things and we it's really cool what do you do

00:58:37   with it i don't know boy that's just that's just like the early personal computers and i'm not

00:58:43   saying this thing will have the trajectory of the early personal computer it's a very different time

00:58:46   and it's a very different kind of technology but i am saying like i'm okay with that being the

00:58:51   audience for this product in the beginning because i think it's better than it just being for

00:58:55   developers and there being nobody but developers developing for other developers like it's better

00:59:00   than that but it's still like you know we're not going to call it a beta but let's call it what it

00:59:05   is it's a 1.0 of a new product category and that's okay so like similarly i've been people who've

00:59:12   seen people say like oh they don't know what this device is for they're letting consumers be the

00:59:15   beta testers yeah but that is actually kind of the point i think like and it's why it's $3500

00:59:22   it's one of the many reasons why and this is brand new and they're going to see what people want to

00:59:28   do with it they've put in the basics right like to make it work i'm sure that you can make it work

00:59:36   with everything that's already on there even if you had no third-party software like you could use

00:59:40   it as a computer right you have a web browser you have notes you have messages right like you have

00:59:45   an email like calendar it's all in there like you can use what is in there and it can be a full

00:59:50   fledged computer and then you can work out exactly what it is that you want to do with it and it's

00:59:57   expensive like and the reason i say that is like if you would have made it just a dev kit they may

01:00:01   have not put all those things on it right like and be like oh you know it's got a web browser and you

01:00:07   can run your app but we're not going to build you the notes app because we don't think you need it

01:00:12   so like i prefer that isn't that developer you gotta ship it eventually right i mean a dev kit is

01:00:18   not you shipped it right it's not it's a hedge against it and they're like no we're gonna ship

01:00:24   it we're gonna treat it like a real product and we're gonna see where it goes and yeah a lot of

01:00:27   developers are gonna buy them at the beginning i mean i don't think that that 500 000 developers

01:00:32   are gonna buy it but i think between developers and early adopters and then something takes hold

01:00:36   where word gets around like i i fully expect that there's going to be a story at some point about

01:00:41   how some hollywood type or some you know financial type is like oh everybody's buying these for 3500

01:00:50   dollars and just using them to watch movies or watch movies on planes or whatever like i i and

01:00:55   is that a common use case of course not but it will be a use case and that'll sell a thousand

01:01:00   and then this other use case will sell a few thousand and and you know that that's how it's

01:01:04   gonna go at first i saw people referencing the fact that the apple was talking about apps like

01:01:10   fantastic how slack and microsoft office in the press release there's like a like a downside as

01:01:16   in like oh is this all you've got to talk about is these productivity apps and i feel like for me i

01:01:21   think it actually makes sense you'd focus on productivity because you're trying to enforce

01:01:25   that it's a computer like first like it's yes it's a computer for computer things it's their

01:01:30   whole their whole goal this is a place where they've been incredibly disciplined right when

01:01:34   we sat there in june it's like spatial computing it's a computer you're going to use it as a

01:01:39   computer and i think part of that is they're just trying to counterbalance the perception

01:01:42   that this is only for games because as a game machine it's a bad you know 3500 for a sort of

01:01:48   limited games machine it's not a great you know right like you got to go with with what your

01:01:53   device is capable of and try to make the case for it and they know that people are going to play

01:01:56   games on it and it's like so it's not the point the point is you can do all these other things

01:02:01   with it will i mean surely people inside apple have been doing this and so they must have at

01:02:06   least some confidence that this is a thing that people are going to do but it is it's part of

01:02:10   their story and it's okay for people to be skeptical of that talking about fantastical

01:02:17   slack and office in the press release i think is fine it's what they're trying to do is say this

01:02:21   is a computer you put on your face it's like an ipad and and it can work with your mac and like

01:02:25   it's a new way of computing and that may be 10 of use or 1 of use or 50 of use we don't know i think

01:02:32   it's okay to be skeptical of it but not to say that it's a bad sign that it's in the press release

01:02:37   i whether whether people use this for productivity it remains to be seen but it's consistent messaging

01:02:43   from apple that this is a computer so people talking about especially in relation to those

01:02:48   apps i just mentioned oh the most of these apps are just ipad apps and vision pro apps

01:02:53   let me just say right like if somebody takes our existing app and compiles it for vision pro that's

01:03:00   actually great like having used it one of the great things about this device is you can take

01:03:08   an app and you can make it as small or as big as you want and you can have loads of them everywhere

01:03:14   like we're not this isn't stage manager right where we've got like four apps and they can only

01:03:21   be in a certain way and they're all going to overlap each other it's like if you took ipad

01:03:27   kind of app style design and gave it closer to mac window management but in an almost infinite canvas

01:03:35   size like not everything has to be like like i don't want to do my calendar in vr right like

01:03:42   i don't need to be in an immersive environment to grab and move my calendar appointments around

01:03:47   right like i just need the fantastic help ipad app but i can scale it as big or as small as i want

01:03:54   and i can take it and i can put it behind me and that's just where it lives and i always know it's

01:04:00   over there hence the spatial part of the spatial computer thing like them looking and acting like

01:04:04   ipad apps in some instances will be what you want but it is a i don't think is going to be a vastly

01:04:11   better experience than using that app on an ipad some of it i think is going to be i mean i do think

01:04:17   that there's probably a case for i mean federico our friend federico who has spent so much time

01:04:24   with ipads and so much time with stage manager what is vision pro but a 3d stage manager i mean

01:04:32   seriously so the idea that if you really want to get productivity done on an ipad if you can run

01:04:38   all those apps on a vision pro instead of having like an ipad screen or an external display with

01:04:44   some apps on it that you have to manage using various management techniques imagine all those

01:04:49   apps being floating windows that you actually can just use your hands to move around in place

01:04:53   in space in different places and look around and move them and resize them like i i think there

01:05:00   maybe is an argument that the vision pro is going to be the best productivity ipad ever which is

01:05:06   wild but it may be it may not be right we don't know i think you got to use it for a few hours

01:05:11   and find out if it's like even remotely reasonable to use this thing for that time but maybe and then

01:05:16   the other thing is to use things as utilities as ancillary utilities so let's say and and i don't

01:05:22   i'm not thrilled with their facetime implementation right i'm surprised that they're not doing

01:05:26   something like what meta has done where you you put multiple people in the same virtual space

01:05:34   with them even if they're just meemojis i think that that you know i'm sure they tried it and

01:05:41   didn't like it or couldn't build it or whatever but like having people in a facetime window i'm

01:05:46   not as impressed by but let's just say for collaboration whatever it might be the idea

01:05:52   that you're collaborating with remote people using this device and they're on screen in some way

01:05:57   you're going to need to refer to documents and maybe slack messages and your calendar and so

01:06:04   the idea of using it potentially as a collaboration and communication tool but you still need to look

01:06:11   at the document maybe you're editing the document together right maybe you are talking about your

01:06:17   next meeting and you can pull up fantastical and say oh yeah i'm free at this time like there are

01:06:21   lots of secondary reasons where it's like i'm not i'm not gonna probably put on this thing and say

01:06:28   let's get busy with fantastical i'm gonna do a lot of calendar stuff now right it's that's not

01:06:33   what it's for it's for the the thing being on the side while you're doing the main thing you're doing

01:06:37   which is probably collaboration i would think i don't know people want this to be a productivity

01:06:44   device but it will have all the limitations of ios and ipad os productivity so disappointment looms

01:06:50   um i don't know i don't know what to say about that one i think we i think we sort of covered it

01:06:56   the idea is it will have it will probably okay will the apps have limitations that are bound by

01:07:03   ios and ipad os yes probably but i just said it about stage manager it's a different paradigm

01:07:11   right because you've got these floating items and part of the disappointment that i have with ipad

01:07:16   os is in the lack of like uh getting your multitasking and getting your different apps in

01:07:24   different places and all set up right like stage manager is okay for that but like i think that

01:07:28   this is going to be different because you're going to have the different apps in different places

01:07:31   it doesn't necessarily mean if you're like oh but the ipad app isn't good and the mac app is

01:07:35   yeah that's going to be a limitation i i i i use a lot of ipad apps yeah and they're all they're

01:07:44   pretty good but sure um there is a whole mac story here too right the idea that you could travel with

01:07:50   a small mac a macbook air and flip it open in a hotel room and have a giant display because you're

01:07:57   now controlling using that ultra fast screen sharing technology that they put in sonoma for

01:08:02   a reason for this reason you are now using your mac it's not mac running on device but you are

01:08:07   using a mac whatever that mac is like there are other stories here well the mac the mac becomes

01:08:12   a window right it's like the thing that we've wanted on ipad for a while for a long time which

01:08:17   is like just give me the macintosh like escape hatch right like yeah i'm doing things with my

01:08:24   apps but i need to do this one thing and this device can't do it it's like the idea of having

01:08:29   like my mac is there and it's doing what it's doing and then around it are all the other

01:08:33   windows that i'm using and they're it's all kind of working together like i think it has that hatch

01:08:41   to jump to jump out of but i also i feel like apple's got to know right that like if this is

01:08:50   going to be a new platform they have to to take the learnings of ipad os right that would be my

01:08:58   hope and that like it does what it does do you want this to do more my hope is they do and they

01:09:07   will as we move into vision os 2 and 3 they might open it up more and more i don't know what that's

01:09:15   going to look like but at this point i'm choosing to have faith in it rather than assuming that it's

01:09:21   going to be disappointing now your quote here i'm going to take it wrong but for good reason which

01:09:29   is all the limitations for productivity so disappointment looms i know what they mean

01:09:34   right i think they mean the software limitations yep but i'm going to tell you the number one

01:09:41   limitation of ios and ipad os is screen size yeah and that won't be on the vision pro no because

01:09:50   you'll be able to open multiple apps in multiple windows at huge sizes that they've never been in

01:09:56   before or at small sizes and so i would that would be part of my counter is that there is one

01:10:03   huge limitation of ios and ipad os that the vision pro won't have which is screen space and screen

01:10:08   space is very important like very important it's the main reason that i don't use uh my ipad to get

01:10:15   my general work done now it's not the apps it's how many of them i can look at at any one point

01:10:21   like and stage manager doesn't do it for me personally like it really doesn't like i don't

01:10:26   feel like i get anything out of stage manager that a mac doesn't give me better right where like what

01:10:32   i plug an ipad into a display i might as well just plug a mac into a display because stage manager on

01:10:37   the mac i prefer or at least just don't even use it i can have as many windows open as i want and i

01:10:41   can freeform size them there like and i get that with this on a scale which i have never seen before

01:10:50   right i do wonder this is sort of a tangent but i do wonder how

01:10:59   many how much productivity on this device might involve

01:11:06   accessories put it that way but like i'm wondering if we're going to be here in three months saying

01:11:14   okay first thing you should do with vision pro is get a keyboard and pair it to it that is actually

01:11:20   one of my uh one of my criticisms here that i picked up the virtual keyboard looks terrible

01:11:25   to use if i need a keyboard with me to get work done why not just have my laptop

01:11:29   well i mean the screen's going to be way bigger than your laptop because it's going to be the

01:11:32   whole room or the whole virtual environment that's the reason but the keyboard yeah that that that

01:11:37   poke at the keys keyboard it it totally looks bad but here's something i said about last week that

01:11:42   i got a sort of through the grapevine general nod to which is we didn't get to use voice commands

01:11:49   but they're there and they're very useful so the idea that you can just say um lady open fantastic

01:11:57   cow and it opens and you can and this is important and then you can be in a text window and if it's

01:12:03   just a short amount of text you can just use dictation right like all those features that

01:12:07   are already there but as opposed to using like if your hands are on your ipad or on your iphone and

01:12:14   the screen slide uh keyboard slides up and you go to to do on a vision pro you might be like uh i

01:12:19   don't really want to use that dumb keyboard you might be more inclined to actually use the

01:12:23   dictation which is pretty good right apple's dictation has come a long way it's real-time

01:12:27   dictation now and you can edit as you go um and so i think there's going to be more voice

01:12:34   but yeah i also think that if you're doing something in vr and you actually want to do

01:12:38   text input at a larger scale you probably will want a keyboard you might want a keyboard and

01:12:42   a trackpad depending on you know if you're controlling a mac i imagine the mac use case

01:12:47   is going to be a laptop where you're actually using the keyboard and the trackpad on the laptop

01:12:51   but it's controlling the screen that you're seeing but i don't know we don't know any of this some

01:12:55   people at apple probably know but we don't know the last thing i have is about apps again but

01:13:01   giving the developers the ability to opt out of having their apps show on the vision pro will mean

01:13:06   that the app store will be a bit of a wasteland and that was a mistake i've heard that lots of

01:13:13   opt-outs are happening and i think that there's a balance here which is on the one hand apple

01:13:23   wants as many of those apps in the store as possible and they're going to really try to push

01:13:27   the idea that they're in there on the other hand i totally understand that if i'm a developer

01:13:34   and i've never seen my app run on that platform that i would be really reluctant to allow it to

01:13:41   run because the support burden falls on me and i don't even have one yeah so i think apple would

01:13:49   be making a lot of developers angry if they didn't give them the opportunity to opt out yep and so

01:13:54   they have to do it but i do i have heard through the grapevine that there have been lots of opt-outs

01:13:59   like there were running apps on apple silicon max right which is a huge to this day a huge frustration

01:14:05   because there are lots of very useful apps that i would like to use on my mac then again i talk

01:14:10   to the developers and and they say things like well yeah but i use like i talked to a developer

01:14:15   who uses a utility connected to the music app and and i said where's the mac version and his response

01:14:20   was well we connect to the music app on ios using this system but on the mac we have to connect

01:14:26   using a different system because we have to connect to the mac music app which is a different

01:14:31   app and it works differently and it doesn't work right i'm like okay all right like i get it i see

01:14:38   it but i hate it i want to finish out today jason with some ask upgrade questions also about the

01:14:44   vision problem oh yay so for as much as we can answer these questions for people we will try our

01:14:49   best so oh thank you i didn't give you the typical lead in there so no i wasn't sure were you we

01:14:56   talking in general terms about ask upgrade or are we rolling right into we can roll right in the

01:15:01   what lasers are signed now so they're gone off so we're in ian says i have three prescriptions

01:15:07   for my eyes one for reading another for medium distance and one for long distance which one

01:15:13   should i upload during the vision pro purchase now i will preface this by saying we cannot give you

01:15:20   the answer to this question for sure right and i hope apple will give you the answer to that

01:15:24   question yes but video editor chip hi chip our video editor here pointed uh me to an faq from

01:15:32   a company that makes lenses for the quest and i'll put a link to those can be called vr wave like

01:15:37   they make this is what they do they make this stuff and this is what chip used for his quest

01:15:41   this company recommended distance lenses for vr so maybe that's what you'll need but ultimately

01:15:50   you're gonna have to try and get that answer from apple but distance makes sense to me but yeah i

01:15:58   don't know yeah my understanding is that most vr stuff and i assume vision pro works like this more

01:16:03   or less um you're thinking oh they'll they're right up in front of my eyes so it's i need to

01:16:08   do near adjustment but that's not actually how it works because they they bend the light they change

01:16:12   the light and your your eyes feel like it's coming from and i believe it's a fixed focal distance it

01:16:18   may be more dynamic than that but uh usually with vr it's like a fixed focal distance of what um

01:16:24   three meters nine feet away and so you do want distance i hope apple will say this because i

01:16:31   also have i have computer glasses which are are near glasses they're for like three feet

01:16:37   away from me two three feet away from me and they are what they are is a much reduced version of my

01:16:43   prescription and then i've got my regular glasses which are progressive so it's distance viewing at

01:16:48   the top and reading at the bottom um and and so like what do i do well i my understanding is that

01:16:57   what i will use is my main prescription that's what i used on the meta quest and it works fine

01:17:02   yeah and not the computer glasses because what they want what they're trying to do is get a fixed

01:17:06   distance and this is one of the things that they haven't figured out i think in vr yet which is how

01:17:11   do you make it so that the thing right in front of your face feels like it's right in front of your

01:17:15   face and the thing that's way far away feels way far away in terms of your vision that's not really

01:17:20   how it works it's all everything is sort of at a similar focus plane so it should probably be your

01:17:25   main prescription but i'm sure apple will communicate this because they have to they haven't i wish they

01:17:32   would they haven't but they have to not on sale yet right they haven't actually asked any member

01:17:36   of the public for their prescription yet i can tell you that they read my standard glasses when

01:17:41   i went in right and and it looked fine so that's my guess is that they're going to want your regular

01:17:47   glasses and not your computer glasses nick asks do you think apple could be waiting to ship new

01:17:54   peripherals keyboards mice that kind of thing until after the vision pro ships maybe they

01:17:58   include some updates that are more tailored to it it seems like a keyboard and trackpad would

01:18:02   be crucial for vision pro productivity i don't know i mean i i do wonder about like if you're

01:18:10   being productive in places without a tabletop if if apple will finally make like a magic keyboard

01:18:16   trackpad combo but like that like that utility that they're that little accessory that's out there

01:18:22   well i would honestly hope they could have maybe that they do some switching between devices right

01:18:29   because you mentioned that would be nice how does it work with the mac is the keyboard and trackpad

01:18:34   attached to the mac or can it be attached to the headset and it uses the mac right like

01:18:39   which how does that work and if they are separate i would really like to have one keyboard and i can

01:18:45   use it on either device depending on what i'm doing so maybe there could be some fun stuff in

01:18:51   there but they could have done that at any point like maybe this is some i do detect some like

01:18:56   sometimes ask upgrade questions or wishes i think this is a wish from nick that there's a good

01:19:03   reason they haven't done this yet we all would like updated peripherals uh this is probably i

01:19:09   mean i think this is probably on apple's list of reasons to update their peripherals but

01:19:14   i i think that's it doesn't strike me as being enough to ship a new product right but i mean

01:19:21   we're we're way past time that i expected new keyboards and trackpads to ship so i feel like

01:19:27   any moment they could ship i'm not sure that vision pro shipping is the reason you ship them

01:19:33   and matthew asks do you think that the vision pro could bring back skeuomorphic design and

01:19:38   that we could see a resurgence over the next few years to make devices feel more lifelike

01:19:44   i mean skeuomorphism i feel like is going to come back because everything comes back

01:19:50   right it's like fashion everything will come back and i think maybe that the the ios designs that

01:19:56   beat skeuomorphic design out of the equation it was probably extreme and there's going to be a

01:20:03   bounce back if there isn't already yeah it would vision pro is interesting though because i think

01:20:07   vision pro in a lot of cases skeuomorphism is what you should do right like there are a lot of

01:20:13   things that you're going to be placing in scenes especially the the like the volumes part of the

01:20:19   the way you can make a little 3d thing that you can put around that should look like the thing

01:20:23   that you're making it look like yeah if you're creating a 3d software object it has got to be

01:20:29   skeuomorphism right like that's what it is is skeuomorphism if it's a piece of software that's

01:20:33   now being turned into a 3d object i keep thinking of things like if it's something that emits audio

01:20:39   so like overcast or broadcasts something some app like that i'd like to be able to have like

01:20:46   a little radio or speaker or something and set it somewhere and then have the audio you know come

01:20:52   from that point in space right like that would be really cool that's as skeuomorphic as it gets and

01:20:58   i wonder if that takes off and there's a lot of skeuomorphic stuff happening in the system if there

01:21:03   is some follow-on behavior to that that runs on other platforms but maybe maybe maybe not but i

01:21:11   feel like vision pro is a place where skeuomorphism actually does make sense in a lot of cases i'm

01:21:16   going to include a link in the show notes to a youtube video it's made by a relay fm member

01:21:22   damion who posted this in discord the other day and damion makes an app called voice in a can

01:21:28   which is a third-party app for the amazon echo assistant and damion has made a version for the

01:21:36   vision pro and it effectively puts a something that looks like an echo dot in your room and you

01:21:45   look at it and you talk to it and that's how it works which i just think is like super cool and

01:21:51   what does it respond with either by voice or it can show you pieces of ui like if you ask it for

01:21:57   a timer it puts up like a little timer window oh so you're you're essentially talking to the app

01:22:02   and giving the app input by talking to it correct the app is responding yeah i like it it's an idea

01:22:08   of this little uh and it's using the amazon echo system like it talks to the amazon echo api that

01:22:15   exists like oh i see so it is actually using the the alexa system yeah interesting interesting and

01:22:23   i just think it's a really cute little idea of like combining the stuff so you just look at it

01:22:28   so you look at it you do like the finger gesture and then you speak and then you let go and it

01:22:33   takes the order and presents you with something maybe it's a shopping list maybe it's a timer or

01:22:38   an answer to a question i like it that's a nice idea i think that there's i mean we know that our

01:22:44   friend david smith is working on some you know widget smithy kind of things for this and there's

01:22:49   a lot of potential we talked about there's no widgets on vision os but like the idea that you

01:22:53   could going back to how we started the show when i talked about being a minimalist one of the things

01:22:58   that i love is ambient information right it's around and i can look at it and i feel like this

01:23:04   fits with my minimalism i don't want it in my face i want to be able to like look at it and say oh

01:23:08   yeah and then look away and that's i think about software and vision pro like that too the idea

01:23:13   that you could take again because you've got unlimited sort of screen space take an item that

01:23:19   you might want to see every now and then like hanging a picture or a clock in your office and

01:23:25   put it somewhere put on the wall put it on a table or whatever and just put this widget-like thing

01:23:30   there so that it's there and it's doing its thing and i can look over at it and get something out of

01:23:37   it the weather the time whatever it is and then look back to what i'm doing i think that that's

01:23:43   got a lot of potential i think that's really interesting so i'm gonna put a link in the

01:23:46   show notes to a poster masterland that david uh put up the other day when he was like playing

01:23:51   around with clocks and he says after three years of spending much of my working life designing

01:23:55   rounded rectangle widgets it's a delight to be able to now make free free free to make widgets

01:24:00   in whatever shape makes sense for the content because so he's there aren't actually widgets

01:24:05   right but he can make windows and the windows act like he's widgets and so he and also what i like

01:24:13   is like he don't he no longer needs to worry about like building a a preview because you just build

01:24:18   the widget like you're just building it and you're seeing it and it runs from your app yeah so great

01:24:24   this is the kind of stuff that makes me excited right like these things we're talking about here

01:24:29   of like these are people they are poking at the edges of what it's been like to make apps right

01:24:36   where like now like these are two developers who make ios apps and they have made versions of these

01:24:44   that exist in space differently like i don't understand how you can't if you listen to the

01:24:50   show you look at that you can't be excited about that right like i'm not saying that you need to be

01:24:54   so excited about it you should drop four thousand dollars but with apple but you should be so

01:24:59   excited about it that you're like i can't wait for when i want to buy this you know that that's

01:25:05   how i right or i can't or even like i can't wait to i would say i made a pitch like this on on uh

01:25:11   twit last week or on mac break weekly which is you don't have to want it you could even think it's

01:25:17   dumb but like i think this is going to be a great year because of this apple one of our most powerful

01:25:25   technology companies has built a product that is packed with cutting edge technology it is it is

01:25:30   so far beyond if you hold one of these you're like oh my god it's unbelievable what this thing has

01:25:35   and yeah it's a high price tag but like just go with me here it is one of our most powerful

01:25:41   companies and a company that we all sort of recognize i think is being really making some

01:25:46   of the best products in the technology industry put doing a multi-year maybe even like decade long

01:25:52   billions of dollars spent effort to build a brand new apple platform that has a completely different

01:25:59   interaction model that is largely untested there have been again you know it's not like there

01:26:05   aren't vr headsets out there but it's like it's a pretty green space pretty empty space

01:26:10   and a whole bunch of incredibly creative innovative people who are ios developers and

01:26:15   mac developers who are running into this space this year it's hard not to be interested in what's

01:26:22   going to happen and what's what we're all going to learn and it might be that we learn that nobody

01:26:29   wants this but it might be that we learn that people do want this for certain things and what

01:26:33   are those things we don't know we have to learn and and things like clever software developers as

01:26:38   you said kind of pushing the envelope and exploring the edges that's my favorite stuff in the

01:26:44   technology industry because we are watching and that moment where you're like oh i see and i'll

01:26:50   tell you i'm sure that a lot of this stuff has been anticipated by people at apple but i will say

01:26:56   there's going to be a lot of stuff that has not been anticipated by people at apple and then when

01:26:59   you mentioned the amazon echo app i thought well gee it really ought to be you really ought to have

01:27:06   the option when you're in that mode of having siri actually be you know they have the little color

01:27:11   orb that comes up when you trigger siri to have siri be an actual orb that you can set somewhere

01:27:16   and that when you talk to it it lights up and you hear the audio coming from it instead of like from

01:27:22   the voice of god so that i can put my siri blob where i want it in this room and have it be a

01:27:30   physical object or the idea that when they do widgets or something like it for vision os

01:27:35   that that what david has learned will inform what they do because they're like oh that's how that

01:27:42   works right and that is a thing we learned about a particular kind of computing environment that

01:27:46   we didn't know before now is might this all be academic and and do you still not want to buy

01:27:51   one or see you ever yourself ever buying one that's okay if that's the case but like i i just

01:27:57   think for anybody who's interested in technology seeing how this plays out and seeing what people

01:28:01   learn and don't learn and and do and don't do i just think that's going to be a fascinating thing

01:28:06   bottom line if you would like to send in any feedback follow-up or questions of your own for

01:28:12   this week's episode you can always go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send that in

01:28:18   until next week's episode you can check out jason's work online at sixcolors.com you can

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01:28:29   relay fm and check out my work at cortexbrand.com we're also on social media if you want to find us

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01:28:53   we're on threads i am at imike and jason is at j snell thank you to our members who support us

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01:29:10   of all thank you for listening until next time say goodbye jason snow goodbye mike hurley

01:29:22   You