485: A Mobile Hamburger Menu Three Feet Wide


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to episode 485 of the connected podcast from relay FM.

00:00:13   This show is brought to you by NetSuite and Nom Nom.

00:00:17   My name is Mike Hurley and I have the pleasure of being joined by Federico Vittucci.

00:00:20   Ciao Federico.

00:00:21   Hello Mike and thank you for having me on the connected podcast.

00:00:25   Anytime, thanks for joining me.

00:00:26   Episode 485.

00:00:28   It's a pleasure and it's my pleasure to also introduce Mr. Stephen Hackett to the connected podcast.

00:00:33   Hello Stephen.

00:00:35   Thank you Federico, thank you Mike, thank you for having me on the connected podcast.

00:00:39   Yeah, let's do the connected podcast together.

00:00:43   I have some connected podcast follow-up.

00:00:45   Okay.

00:00:46   An anonymous connected podcast listener wrote in to say,

00:00:49   okay, this takes some turns, all right, you just got to bear with me.

00:00:52   It really does.

00:00:52   Like it starts and then it takes a, this just takes a bunch of turns, all right.

00:00:56   We're going to take some harsh lefts, some harsh rights.

00:00:59   Yeah.

00:01:00   So this listener wrote in to say, I recently went to a very tragic funeral of a friend who suddenly passed away.

00:01:05   That's turn number one.

00:01:07   Then we continue.

00:01:08   Attendance was so large there was a spillover room where we watched the funeral service via zoom on a projector screen.

00:01:15   Okay.

00:01:15   This feels like a real tragedy, right?

00:01:18   Okay.

00:01:18   Well, obviously this person was very beloved and there were a lot of people.

00:01:21   Okay.

00:01:23   This resulted in the Mac OS reactions feature interrupting the funeral several times.

00:01:28   As people gave remarks, including the priest, it kept interpreting their gestures, sending big thumbs up and balloons behind them.

00:01:36   It even did it during the slideshow of photos of the deceased, just random balloons and emoji appearing over treasured images set to sad music.

00:01:49   While horribly embarrassing for the venue, it gave my colleagues and I something to look at each other and laugh about during one of the saddest days of our lives.

00:01:57   I will tell you right now, we have made reference to the fact that this is a bad feature in some of these kinds of instances.

00:02:05   I would say this was good.

00:02:07   Like that was obviously a horrible day.

00:02:11   No.

00:02:11   The people in that room were having the best time they could have had in that environment.

00:02:18   This is not what that feature should be for, right?

00:02:21   But if you were in that room, you would not have been able to help yourself, but start laughing, right?

00:02:29   Like I feel like it would have lightened the mood a little bit, at least for these people.

00:02:34   Yeah.

00:02:34   I honestly don't know what to say here.

00:02:37   This sounds, it's one of those like dark humor type situations.

00:02:43   Like this.

00:02:44   Yeah.

00:02:45   I mean, the slideshow of photos and the balloons and the Moji popular.

00:02:49   I mean, I think that's where it would have gotten me, right?

00:02:51   Like if I'm in this scenario, it like would have been like, oh no.

00:02:56   And then like it would have kept happening.

00:02:58   It'd be like, oh, this is so bad.

00:02:59   But then if it starts on a slideshow, I mean, I've lost it at that point, you know?

00:03:03   Yeah.

00:03:04   What a terrible, but maybe brilliant thing to have happened.

00:03:09   This reminds me of one time when I was in high school and we went to the funeral of a grandparent, of a friend of ours, and the dad of a classmate went to say, he wanted to say my condolences to the relatives.

00:03:27   And so the dad of one of my friends just walks up there and shakes the hand of the wife, I believe.

00:03:34   And for whatever reason, instead of saying my condolences, he says, congratulations.

00:03:39   Oh no.

00:03:41   It's like, have a good flight.

00:03:44   You do.

00:03:45   That kind of thing, you know, when you're boarding a flight.

00:03:48   And I remember we looked at each other, but our friends were like, what?

00:03:53   It's so terrible, right?

00:03:56   Yeah.

00:03:57   So bad.

00:03:58   I did that.

00:03:59   I don't think I told y'all, but after my car accident last year, you know, I went to the emergency room, got checked out.

00:04:05   And as I was leaving, the nurse who had kind of been helping me was like, I hope you feel better.

00:04:10   And I was like, you too.

00:04:13   Maybe for her it was very traumatic to take care of you, you know?

00:04:16   So she maybe could feel better after.

00:04:18   Probably.

00:04:18   I kept trying to talk to her about X-Serves.

00:04:21   Yeah.

00:04:21   I mean.

00:04:23   A couple of weeks ago, I was watching a YouTube live stream of this creator that I like, and they kept having this happen.

00:04:31   The Mac OS reactions, like he was just talking and gesturing, right?

00:04:35   And they were going off and he got like mad at it.

00:04:37   And so in the chat, I was like, hey, go to the camera icon in your menu bar and you can turn them off.

00:04:41   And he did it and was very, very happy.

00:04:43   So that feel good for you, right?

00:04:46   It did.

00:04:46   A tech tip, you know?

00:04:48   No, but it's also like, look, we're creators, but we're also fans of creators.

00:04:52   And if you have a creator that you like and you do something to help them, or they acknowledge you in some way, like it's always a good feeling.

00:04:57   Yes.

00:04:58   Yeah.

00:04:59   This feature, I mean.

00:05:01   It's a good feature.

00:05:03   It's just it being good, like the way in which it is good is also incredibly problematic, right?

00:05:11   Like.

00:05:11   It's a good feature that doesn't account for the unpredictability of life, I think.

00:05:17   Like this is something that, to me, I can only believe.

00:05:22   They just, they knew this was going to happen, but decided to ship it anyway.

00:05:26   Because I cannot bring myself to believe that you would not assume that these kinds of weird things could happen.

00:05:32   You know what I mean?

00:05:33   Yeah.

00:05:34   Like, even if you're, even if you never imagine someone using a zoom call to have an overflow room at a funeral, you must assume that like sometimes someone might be having a FaceTime call with a friend that is some about something sad.

00:05:49   And then making a gesture could set it off, right?

00:05:52   Like you, I can only imagine you have to have run through that scenario, but they decided to ship it anyway.

00:05:59   Like that, that's, it feels to me like it's the ugly scenario I can accept in my mind.

00:06:03   And I would do it too, by the way.

00:06:06   Like if I was in that scenario and like had this feature, I would run through, you know, like what are the ways in which this could go wrong?

00:06:15   What is the one thing that you could do to one person that would upset them?

00:06:18   Like that kind of thing.

00:06:19   And I would say like, this is a feature that's worth shipping because it is a fun thing, but yeah, it's going to go weird.

00:06:26   But that's just the way that these things go.

00:06:29   I don't know if you two would do anything different.

00:06:32   I mean, I'd have it off by default.

00:06:34   Oh, is it? Is it on by default?

00:06:38   It is on by default, I think.

00:06:39   Okay.

00:06:40   Yeah.

00:06:42   But again, I mean, what would you do though?

00:06:46   Like how, how would anyone ever use it or find it at that point?

00:06:49   Well, they've got tip kit, right?

00:06:51   Just, just tip kit it up.

00:06:53   I've seen people use, like in my life, use their computers and they just ignore everything that the thing tells them, right?

00:07:01   Like if, if you put up like a little splash screen or whatever, people just don't even read it, you know?

00:07:09   I had a thing today, we can move on a second, but just about that.

00:07:12   I was getting off the train and just as I was walking, like I was waiting to get off, like I just turned to the left and I could see somebody, they were on their iPhone and they were like really studying a subscription splash screen, like really reading it all.

00:07:27   And there was just something about that interaction where I was like, hmm.

00:07:31   It was just very interesting to me, like that, you know, somebody put together, like this is whatever this app was and these are all the features it has, like this person was like really reading it.

00:07:43   I was like, oh, maybe people do read those, maybe that's why they exist.

00:07:44   People actually want to know what they're going to get.

00:07:46   Yeah.

00:07:47   You know, if the text was just enormous, it'd be easier to understand what was happening, but we'll get to that later.

00:07:53   That, by the way, like big text is like, you know, everyone does it in design. I do designers that I work with, I know it must drive them at. Can we just make the text a little bit bigger? Like this is one of those.

00:08:05   Yeah.

00:08:06   Listener Mark R wrote in, we were just watching a YouTube video where there was a sketch involving a police officer. Suddenly our HomePod mini called out. Would you like me to call emergency services? Luckily it listened when we hastily said no, no. But I'm curious if you know what would prompt this. I couldn't find anything quite like this online.

00:08:29   The closest thing I found was Apple support document called use HomePod for phone calls. And so it says, if you call emergency services.

00:08:41   And then it gives the phrase, you know, Hey thing, I'm going to say like, Steven, are you like, no violence today? Like where is he going? Is he going to say, Hey, say, Hey, hey, thing.

00:08:55   Call 911.

00:09:00   People all over the world are pulling over in their cars right now, just in case you're about to do this.

00:09:05   Hey thing, call emergency services. Then the HomePod will attempt to place a telephone call using the iPhone. If you've set it up to make personal requests. I don't have personal requests on any of my HomePods.

00:09:18   Because they're all in shared spaces except for the ones in my office. And if I'm in my office, I'm at my computer, so I don't need to talk to it to do anything. But yeah, what a, what a situation. I mean, I think we've all had.

00:09:31   I think that it could even be something like emergency, like, you know, like, I feel like if there are, there are more words that you could say to it where it would ask, do you want me to do this rather than just do it? Because I feel like in some of these, it should just make the call. Right. It shouldn't just ask you if you want to make the call.

00:09:52   I mean, if you're, if you're watching a thing about a police officer, like it's very easy to understand how the words like emergency services could be. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The problem is that it picked up the activation phrase from the video. Yeah, I mean, I think the issue. Well, honestly, are we surprised?

00:10:12   Sometimes it's not related to Siri, but I've noticed that my LG TV just randomly activates its built in assistant, which I don't even know what it's called. LG bot, whatever. I honestly don't know. LG Q. I don't know. And I got to get to the bottom of it because now it's happening every few days and my TV also replies in British English for some reason.

00:10:34   Yeah, I cannot do it, but it's like it's got a very thick British accent to the LG assistant and I got to figure out what's, what's triggering it. But yeah, this is season's man. They're done. Not that strong, but yeah, yeah.

00:10:51   The telly. We got a little bit of follow up about the Ricky's episode last week. First of all, it's not the document, but, um, we're going to get to it. Mike already has a point, which is upsetting. A lot of people wrote in saying they missed the humming and the bell. So I think we made a mistake by getting rid of that.

00:11:13   I think the humming, our humming error is over. Wow. To be honest, I feel like we were losing steam on it. I feel like we weren't enjoying it the same and it was just becoming a thing we did. I think like, I feel like we're past our humming error.

00:11:27   Okay.

00:11:29   I mean, I have also seen feedback in the past where people ask us to please, please stop doing it. So I think, you know,

00:11:37   The anti humming alliance?

00:11:40   Maybe I'm, maybe I'm anti hum now. I don't know.

00:11:44   I think our humming error is over.

00:11:51   We also have just a mountain of blue shell ideas to spice up the game and we will get to those in a future episode. Not today. There's a lot of stuff.

00:12:13   We're going to be creating the rule set around allowing what someone can and can't do with their temporary rule change. That's the thing we need to work out. Maybe we'll wait until there's an episode where there's nothing going on and then we'll talk, we'll try and hammer this one out.

00:12:28   Exactly.

00:12:30   Boys, do not follow this link to the world. Whatever you do, don't buy anything online. Everybody knows you cannot use your credit card online because you will be frauded.

00:12:47   It's too late now. I've been frauded.

00:12:49   Everybody knows. No, you're going to be frauded. Don't use your credit card on the internet.

00:12:55   Well, I clicked a link on an Instagram ad and I purchased a product so I guess now they're going to take my family now.

00:13:01   Federico, you made the pact with the dev. Okay.

00:13:05   Just from 9to5Mac, Apple is updating its app store guidelines to allow developers to link to alternative payment methods, providing that the app also offers purchases through Apple's own in-app purchase system.

00:13:19   So this is around what is called the anti-steering rules. This is one of the things that fell out of the Apple Epic case. It went all the way up to the US Supreme Court and the US Supreme Court was like, "No, you have to give people the option to go and sign up on the web and you can't tell developers that they can't tell their customers to do it."

00:13:40   Well, technically, one true John will tell you the Supreme Court decided not to decide, therefore the previous ruling stands.

00:13:49   Federico, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just trying to do my best.

00:13:52   But John is. Well, he was.

00:13:54   Yeah, well, bring John on the show then and have him sum it up.

00:13:58   Anyway, this is all the same. All of the rules, all of the processes, everything is the same as what Apple has done currently in the Netherlands and in South Korea.

00:14:10   So if you want to, as a developer, opt into this system, you have to basically apply to get an entitlement to allow you to do it.

00:14:18   You are allowed one link where you can tell people that they can go and sign up for your service outside the App Store.

00:14:28   When somebody clicks that one link, which cannot take people to an in-app browser, it has to take them to Safari. I don't understand that part of it.

00:14:35   They don't even like Safari View Controller themselves.

00:14:38   It's very strange that they are making people do that. It shows this big splash screen with huge text which says, "You're about to go to an external website.

00:14:51   Apple is not responsible for the privacy or security of purchases made on the web.

00:14:55   Any accounts or purchases made outside of this app will be managed by the developer.

00:15:00   Your App Store account, store payment and related features such as subscription management or refund requests will not be available.

00:15:05   Apple can't verify any pricing or promotions offered by the developer."

00:15:09   To which everyone in the world would say, "I wasn't expecting that."

00:15:14   Maybe I'm being naive.

00:15:16   So people see that splash screen. The original text of this splash screen when they were working on it in South Korea, the Netherlands first, I don't remember which one.

00:15:27   It was so much harsher.

00:15:29   The Netherlands courts made them change it. The original text was basically saying what I was making a joke about before.

00:15:38   Like, "Buying something on, using your card, we cannot verify the security of your bank card." It was pretty insane.

00:15:45   They should have just written, "You're going to get hacked, son."

00:15:49   Honestly, it felt like that.

00:15:51   There is an episode of Upgrade that we just referenced on last week's show where it's like the title was something like "This App May Kill You."

00:15:59   And that was a joke about the text of this prompt.

00:16:03   If you opt into this, do the whole thing.

00:16:07   Apple wants the commission they would have otherwise received.

00:16:11   So either 30 or 15 percent depending on what it is and where you are in their programs.

00:16:16   Minus 3 percent, which is what they are saying is the fees for card processing.

00:16:23   Apple also expects you as the developer, the company, to do all of the accounting for this and then provide that to them along with the money that you are collecting for them.

00:16:34   And Apple reserves the right to audit those reports and your financial statements.

00:16:40   At any time.

00:16:42   You mean they are not going to believe that Spotify gives them one dollar?

00:16:46   Well, obviously Apple have no real way of policing this.

00:16:51   They can say that they are going to audit you or whatever.

00:16:54   Again, they are not a law enforcement.

00:16:58   They are not the IRS.

00:17:01   There is only so much that they are able to do.

00:17:04   And I think Apple are hoping that the threat of being removed from the App Store will make people comply.

00:17:09   But they did give this quote.

00:17:12   It says either they gave this quote to 9to5 or it was in some documents I'm not sure about but it's a 9to5 Mac.

00:17:17   Apple said although developers are contractually obligated to pay the commission, as a practical matter with hundreds of thousands of developers with apps on the US storefronts for the iOS and iPadOS app stores, collection and enforcement will be exceedingly difficult and in many cases impossible.

00:17:33   I do feel a little bit like...

00:17:36   Boo hoo?

00:17:38   You know what I mean?

00:17:40   And Apple's whole thing about this is the 27 or 12% is what is to pay for all of the things they give you as a developer.

00:17:52   Namely the SDKs.

00:17:56   I have my views on this and other people have their views on this and Apple have their views on this.

00:18:03   I think the whole thing is ridiculous personally.

00:18:06   9to5 Mac, I also got this from them, Apple has provided templates that developers can use for communicating with customers about alternative in-app payment systems.

00:18:16   You can say, and this is actually much more lenient, like the wording that they would like you to use than I expected.

00:18:22   You can say for special offers go to this link. Lower prices offered at this link.

00:18:27   To get X percent off go to this link. Buy for blank at this link.

00:18:32   That is surprising to me that Apple is fine with you saying to get 27% off this price, go here.

00:18:40   But I guess from Apple's perspective they expect to then get that 27% anyway so what do they care?

00:18:45   They do. Now those links can only be plain text links.

00:18:50   They cannot be on a pop-up or interstitial screen.

00:18:54   So you can't have a screen for your in-app purchase and then you tap it and then you see this.

00:19:03   And it can only be in one place in your app.

00:19:06   So while they provide some templates, if you look at the entitlement documentation, they are still really picky about where these links can go.

00:19:16   And this isn't new, like you mentioned, this has been in other markets.

00:19:20   These restrictions were there as well. It's not a free-for-all in terms of design.

00:19:25   Apple is saying you can do this but if you look at their layouts it's very clearly a downplayed option versus what the standard app store checkout screen flow looks like.

00:19:40   Yeah, they're being very prescriptive and I will be fascinated to see who actually takes them up on this.

00:19:52   Like what developers actually do this.

00:19:55   I think large companies would still be inclined to do it because they're going to get more customer data this way.

00:20:04   And they're also going to have people's cards on file. So you think of a Spotify and Netflix, whatever.

00:20:11   I think they would even be happy to do the whole, provided they already do it in-app purchase, right?

00:20:17   I think they would be happy to give Apple their money because they will get something that they're not currently getting.

00:20:23   It is a benefit to them, right? They are now getting information.

00:20:27   They have people's cards, they have their emails, whatever. Stuff that they may not have depending on the way that the person signs up for an in-app purchase.

00:20:36   I just think the whole thing is like, I think it's, honestly I think it's, this just shows the, it kind of like lays it all bare what Apple think.

00:20:51   And I think it's pretty ugly to be honest.

00:20:55   Yeah. They are complying with what they're supposed to do, but they're doing it through as gridded teeth as possible.

00:21:04   And it's a reminder that like this revenue to them is really important.

00:21:11   And, you know, you mentioned earlier that 27 percent or 12 percent, if you're in the small business program after the year, blah, blah, blah.

00:21:18   They view that as a service fee to get to use their platform and they view it as their platform, their tools, and you are paying for access to it.

00:21:31   And that's the part that I think rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

00:21:34   I mean, it is, yes, technically you can go now outside the App Store for these purchases, but Apple has done every single thing they can to disincentivize developers and users, honestly, to do it.

00:21:51   And I agree with you. I think if anyone does it, it would be big companies.

00:21:54   I know, you know, our friends who are indie developers, I don't think any of them are interested in this.

00:21:59   And I really don't blame them.

00:22:01   Because the amount of work you would have to do to do the accounting, because you will be too scared that Apple is going to kick you out of the App Store, right?

00:22:10   But I just, the whole thing is, it's just madness to me.

00:22:15   Like, I just think it's like, yeah.

00:22:20   It's funny to me that it is called an entitlement.

00:22:26   Like, yeah, oh, you feel entitled to do this?

00:22:29   That's an old word, though. I mean, they've used that forever.

00:22:33   No, no, no, no, no.

00:22:35   No, I'm saying the irony of it being called an entitlement is what is funny to me.

00:22:39   Like, I know what it means in, like, what Apple's saying, but this entitlement is their entitlement for that money.

00:22:49   Which I think, I think I've said this for years, I think they've gone too far, and I think they're continuing to do it too far.

00:22:57   And I think the next 12 months, we're just going to see more and more and more of this.

00:23:01   And like, how much they are willing to give, and what they are willing to give up to get what they believe they're entitled to.

00:23:09   I just think it just gets like, messy.

00:23:13   And I'm just not sure that Apple deserves all the money that they think that they should get.

00:23:22   Actually, no, I'm not sure. They don't deserve all the money that they think they should get, in my opinion.

00:23:26   I mean, obviously, there is value in Apple providing you with the platform and the SDKs.

00:23:31   And the question is, and I agree with you, Mike, the question is, is that worth 27% of someone else's work?

00:23:41   And especially, and you get this problem, which I think it's impossible to separate the context of like,

00:23:48   the trillion dollar company wants 27% off of your work because of fees, and that just doesn't sit right with me personally.

00:24:00   Like, would 10% be better? Sure. Would 15% be better? Yeah.

00:24:05   And I mean, my personal opinion is just pick a lower number and stick to that without all these exceptions

00:24:10   and all these screens and entitlements that just make you look petty.

00:24:15   Even though I do understand that there is a cost involved with Apple building the platform, and I agree with that.

00:24:21   But the cost seems too high, in my opinion.

00:24:25   It's not the only place that they're making money. They're making the actual money from the sale of the iPhone.

00:24:31   And like, part of the reason the iPhone is so successful is because there's apps on it.

00:24:35   Now, I'm going to pick on Underscore for a second, right, in a good way.

00:24:40   He is someone who I know is happy to pay the 30% because it benefits him, right?

00:24:47   Like, he has built a business on what Apple has provided, right?

00:24:51   And like, I think that that makes sense. Fine.

00:24:54   But if you look at Spotify, right? Spotify doesn't like, need Apple to be successful, right?

00:25:03   People want Spotify, right? So like, for Widgetsmith, Widgetsmith needs Apple to have done what Apple did to make Widgetsmith a success, right?

00:25:13   Spotify was already successful. People already wanted it.

00:25:18   Like, there is a thing to me where I'm not sure why Apple believes that because they have an iPhone, they should have 30% of Spotify's revenue.

00:25:26   That doesn't make sense to me.

00:25:28   There's an argument to be made in favor of the opposite scenario in which there are some cases in which Apple should go to certain companies and give them money to say, "Hey, please bring your app to my platform."

00:25:41   You know? Like, yeah.

00:25:44   Well, like, cut some kind of deal, right? Like, that is, I mean, I know that you can get in weirdness with that.

00:25:50   I know Google is, they're in trouble right now because they cut a bunch of deals.

00:25:53   But they cut them in secret and said that there were rules for everybody else.

00:25:57   Like, if the rules were we make deals, like, it would be fine. But that's not what they said that they did.

00:26:02   But anyway, maybe I'm simplifying it. We've already established I'm not a lawyer.

00:26:06   But I just, you know, it's funny to me that, like, for Apple, because they make the SDK for, so there are apps for the iPhones and people want to buy an iPhone because they sell the iPhone.

00:26:19   But then they also think that people should want to pay them to make software for the iPhone. It's very weird to me.

00:26:29   It continues to be weird and this is just completely barefaced in my opinion of, like, what they are, what they think.

00:26:37   And I just don't agree with it.

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00:29:04   Our thanks to NetSuite for the support of the show and Relay FM.

00:29:08   Vision Pro pre-orders start this Friday. We'll get to our plans in a second.

00:29:16   Oh boy, do they. I wasn't aware.

00:29:20   There's a lot of stuff. Apple's turning up the press cycle.

00:29:26   It started with a newsroom article earlier this week outlining some of the entertainment opportunities that await us on the Vision Pro headset.

00:29:36   Including Avatar Way of Water being one of the 150 3D movies that will be ready at launch.

00:29:43   That means Mike gets a flexi.

00:29:45   Good job, Mike.

00:29:48   So look, this is the year. I'm going to win it and it's fine.

00:29:53   It's already started the way in which it will continue. I'm the winner right now. I will continue to be the winner into the future.

00:29:59   Cool. Sure.

00:30:01   Cool.

00:30:04   Cool.

00:30:05   I like the early boldness.

00:30:07   Well, I mean, I already won again. Like this is already my second year, so.

00:30:12   Yeah.

00:30:15   It's easy to be bold.

00:30:16   I guess so.

00:30:17   A couple of noticeable absences in Apple's press release about entertainment. No mention of YouTube or Netflix. Have y'all heard of those services? Are they important to you personally?

00:30:28   It's almost like Apple should have a better relationship with these important partners other than just Disney.

00:30:38   Yeah.

00:30:40   My man Bob Iger is a friend of the show.

00:30:46   The Disney thing sounds awesome though, right?

00:30:49   It does.

00:30:51   Yes.

00:30:52   Like the environments that they've made.

00:30:54   The different environments.

00:30:55   That sounds really good fun.

00:30:56   Yeah, I'm pumped about that.

00:30:57   I want to watch like Avengers Endgame from inside of Stark Tower. You know, like the Avengers Tower. Like I'm there for that big time. I'm going to have a good day with that one.

00:31:07   They should honestly do environments based on their own properties. Like let me watch and hear me out. Let me watch For All Mankind while sitting in the chair in Jamestown or Happy Valley Base. Like let me do that.

00:31:21   They should do that.

00:31:22   Yeah.

00:31:23   They should do that. They might, right? Like I think if the Disney one gets such a good reaction, maybe they would want to do that too, you know?

00:31:31   Yeah.

00:31:32   But the thing about YouTube and Netflix. So I was thinking about this a few days ago. And when I, when, you know, obviously we were sort of feeling that these two companies were not going to be available at launch with native apps.

00:31:44   And I started thinking, well, maybe I should be able to add a PWA, like a save them as a web app with Safari on the Vision Pro. But there's no support for saving web apps from Safari on the Vision Pro.

00:31:54   How do you know this?

00:31:56   Well, I know this because I've been talking to a developer who's been working on this third party app to stream NVIDIA GeForce Now on the Vision Pro.

00:32:08   Oh, sick.

00:32:09   Yeah. Yeah. 4K 6C. Yeah. It's a whole thing. We'll get into it when we have the Vision Pro.

00:32:14   And so this developer told me there's no support for PWAs. You cannot save a web app with the Vision Pro. So they actually made like a custom app to stream GeForce Now, VI third party VisionOS app.

00:32:28   So if you want to watch YouTube and Netflix, I guess you will have to use, you will have to open those websites in the regular Safari browser for the Vision Pro.

00:32:36   And assuming that those are going to work, and I assume so.

00:32:40   Apple says they could try and head this off in the press release. They're very aware of what they have and haven't got, where they specifically say that you can watch others, that users can also watch popular online and streaming video using Safari and other browsers.

00:32:59   Yeah. Okay.

00:33:00   Which is one of the most hilarious lines in a press release. You know those other popular online streaming video things?

00:33:07   Yeah. Don't give them your payment details directly, but they're awesome.

00:33:11   I'm assuming that the, and I would love for some developers to confirm this with me. I'm assuming that Safari on the Vision Pro presents itself with a macOS user agent or an iPad user agent to websites.

00:33:25   In that case, any website that works on an iPad or Mac should work just fine on the Vision Pro.

00:33:31   Doesn't the iPad present as a Mac now? Wasn't that a thing that they did?

00:33:35   Yeah. The desktop mode is enabled by default. If you disable it, it presents itself as a tablet browser, which is the old user agent.

00:33:46   Again, trying to set your mind back. I know that when we did it, it was looking at a website and that looked like a desktop version of a news website.

00:33:54   Yeah.

00:33:55   It didn't look to me like an iPad. I mean, surely it isn't, right? If I go 100 inches on this screen as a mobile view.

00:34:02   Yeah, exactly.

00:34:04   Yeah, that's the only potentially interesting thing for web developers. Like if you have this person opening your website from a Vision Pro and he presents itself as a Mac and then it becomes this giant, like a 180 degree viewport.

00:34:19   How do you account for that in your web design? I guess you don't at this point.

00:34:24   I mean, ultra-wides? Like if you're doing...

00:34:27   Yeah. Kind of.

00:34:28   I mean, so like what you'll end up with a lot of the time is just a really big window with a column of text in the middle.

00:34:34   Yes.

00:34:35   It's kind of what an ultra-wide monitor looks like sometimes.

00:34:37   Yeah. And like a mobile hamburger menu that's three feet wide.

00:34:41   Yep.

00:34:42   Just go and smash it.

00:34:43   Whole palm, smash it.

00:34:45   Smash that button, fam.

00:34:48   Yeah, I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing.

00:34:59   Yeah, I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing. I think that's a really good thing.

00:35:05   Well, you referenced you were excited that the Alicia Keys one was going to be on there. It just reminded me of like how personal this experience is for people because for me, that was the one in the reel that I didn't like.

00:35:18   Oh, no. That was my favorite.

00:35:20   It felt weird to me. There is no world in which Alicia Keys would look into my face and sing at me. So it felt very strange. And I liked all of the other ones because they felt like natural things that a person could experience where like I don't really know if I believe that Alicia Keys would sing at me.

00:35:38   Plus it was like weird because she's like gesturing to you. So like, you know, it's odd. To me it was odd. I liked more like the other stuff, including the typewrote walking, which made me feel upset, but it was a fun thing.

00:35:52   The guest user mode is going to be exceptionally welcome because I was already told by all my friends and neighbors that they will want to check out the Vision Pro. And so I mean, this is obviously the kind of device where you know, those brave enough are going to buy one.

00:36:08   They're going to have, you know, family and friends, you know, just looking at it and wanting to try it. And so having a native guest user mode built in from the start is going to be very, very useful.

00:36:19   Yeah. So very happy to see this.

00:36:22   I do wonder how that's going to work. This thing is such a personalized device with like the face shield and like what if you have your prescription lenses in there? Like I appreciate that it's there, but I just wonder how good of a experience it will be.

00:36:37   Yeah, I mean, lenses should be easy enough to remove. They are magnetically attached. So you remove those. And I'm just going to do what I do whenever like I have friends over who want to try the PSVR or the MetaQuest.

00:36:50   I just keep a polishing cloth nearby and like sanitizer, you know, just because it's gross to get something off of your face and put it on someone else's face with direct skin contact.

00:36:59   So, you know, clean that thing, have a polishing cloth nearby, remove the prescription lenses and have them try it. And if the face shield is too tight or not big enough, well, so be it.

00:37:09   I'm still like wondering, could you wear your glasses under this if you didn't tighten it up too much? Like that's the thing that I am going to try.

00:37:19   I don't know what the inside is like, right, which might preclude it, but I feel like it's doable. Like I've worn my glasses. I wear my glasses inside of my MetaQuest.

00:37:32   You can fit them in there. And especially that top strap version means you won't have to tighten up the back strap so much. It might be possible.

00:37:43   It might.

00:37:44   Could be.

00:37:45   Just for a demo for someone, like not for all the time, like it's better to have prescription lenses if you can do it, but for like a demo, you know, for a loved one to try it on, you might be able to squeeze a pair of glasses inside of there.

00:37:59   And speaking of all of this, like hardware related aspects of the Vision Pro, you know what I cannot wait for? Third party accessories and replacements. Like I cannot wait for other companies.

00:38:12   Oh, we know. We know you want to accessorize this thing. We get it.

00:38:16   Yes. I'm going to put antennas on top of it.

00:38:25   The one thing this makes me again come back to is like so many of Apple's devices are just single user. Really the Mac's the only one. Right. Or if you have an iPad managed by an education organization. But I don't know. More things that have guest user modes.

00:38:43   I guess the Apple TV has multiple users, but I don't know who is using that. I don't know. I wish more of these products were more easily used by more people.

00:38:51   I know it's like take the price out of it for a minute, but like of all of the products I have that Apple make, this is the one I would least likely want to have other people use.

00:38:59   But they're going to ask you.

00:39:01   No, but like I mean on the regular, right? Like as like a one time, like, you know, one time, but like.

00:39:07   Oh yeah, I'm going to let you try it one time and then that's enough.

00:39:10   No, but like the idea of there being a device in my house and like everyone's just picking it up and using it, like of all of the things that I could own, this would be the one that I would least likely want someone to use because every time I pick it up, then I have to reset it to my head shape.

00:39:23   Like this is the experience I had to have a Quest. Like every single time it required new setup because it had been, you know, it's been shared by me and my wife. So like, but with an iPad, it's not like I changed the physical shape of the iPad every time one of us uses it.

00:39:37   And I know people want it to have multiple users because it costs three and a half thousand dollars, but like it's not always going to be that way.

00:39:44   And I know that like, oh, everyone's going to have to have one if you want to want to use one. But like, I don't know. I struggle to see a world in which somebody needs four of these in their house. Like they have to have them.

00:39:57   Also, that'd be like $13,000 worth of hardware.

00:40:01   That's what I'm saying. Like that time isn't now, right? Like that time might be in the future, maybe, but it's also, I also can't personally imagine a scenario where there are three people, four people in a home, right?

00:40:14   So you're like two parents, two kids, and you want to watch something like a piece of media. I don't think I imagine everybody picking up their headset and putting it on.

00:40:22   Like TVs exist and they're good and people like TVs and it's fine. You know, this is going to be its own experience. It's going to be its own thing.

00:40:31   It's going to be fun and cool and it's going to do what it's going to do. But I can't imagine it's going to be like watching a movie on this thing.

00:40:37   It's like, well, now I can never use my television ever again.

00:40:40   We did see those comments from people back in June and be like, I'm going to sell my 4K OLED TV and get rid of it and just use the Vision Pro.

00:40:47   Not like, I mean, if you live on your own. Yeah, exactly. Sure. Maybe you would want to do that. But like, I just, I don't imagine this scenario for a really long time. So like, I think it's okay.

00:41:01   Yeah, I mean, even if you live on your own and maybe you have the expectation that you're never going to have someone over and if you do, what are you going to do? Like, you're going to be like, well, let's watch a movie. I'm going to put on the Vision Pro. You will watch it on your iPhone.

00:41:21   They also gave like the travel, it says like a travel mode, right? Which is quite interesting. I'd love to know a little bit more about this. I haven't given more information yet, but I think it's cool. Like if you want to watch a movie on a plane, say that you turn on this mode and it increases the stabilization for visuals.

00:41:37   So the movie's not going to be bouncing around or whatever. I really want to know more about that. Like how and why is this different to normal? Like that's going to be an interesting thing to get more details on.

00:41:49   It's like your body becomes the gimbal for the Vision Pro.

00:41:53   It's strange. So a couple of weeks ago, Mark Gurman reported on social media that the reviewer experience for the Vision Pro was going to be quite different and that it would include two sessions with Apple, then hardware given over.

00:42:14   So like you'll go in this week and they'll give you a demo and then go in next week and you get another demo. Then you get the hardware and you publish the review. I expect, you know, the week of it going on sale.

00:42:27   Like I think normal, right? Like to my memory, reviews never go up before preorder. They go in between the preorder buy window. But that's my memory of products.

00:42:37   But I don't know if it's true. It looks like that has started because also for the first time, Apple has allowed people to have photos of them wearing the units. Although Apple is taking the photos. I understand why they're doing this.

00:42:52   They want them to look as good as they possibly can. And so, you know, there seems to be some Apple photographer who's been taking pictures and a bunch of people have been posting them over the last 24 hours.

00:43:03   And also given some early impressions, it seems like there is no embargo for these at all, which is the same as for WWDC. Like for the, there wasn't an embargo on people's experiences.

00:43:15   I'm sure there'll be an embargo on a review, but Apple's crafting this hour long, what looks like, or I think I heard someone say like an hour long experience, which is a little bit longer than what was at WWDC.

00:43:26   And then next week or whatever, maybe they go for another one. But so there's a bunch of reporting about it now. These aren't reviews. These, I think are barely first impressions, right?

00:43:36   It's just a little bit more information. More people have got to see it than they got to see before. Some people got to see it multiple times and, you know, therefore there are more takes.

00:43:46   Yeah, I think that's cool. I mean, in lieu of a keynote, which clearly they're not doing, I think having people come in and then be able to talk freely about it, like a bunch of people in the tech press and sort of the creator space have just been answering open questions on like Mastodon and Twitter and Threads over the last couple of days as they've experienced this.

00:44:07   And that's kind of like a low key, interesting way of doing it.

00:44:12   Well, you're speaking to the enthusiasts, right? Because they're the people that are going to buy this if anyone. It's enthusiasts and developers. And so like this rollout is pretty smart. They know who's going to be buying this. They know who they're talking to.

00:44:23   And they're finding a way to get to them, which isn't necessarily drawing the intention of the entire planet right now. Because there kind of isn't really any point in doing that now. It seems like where they're going with this.

00:44:39   There's a lot of conversation about the weight of this thing.

00:44:42   Yeah, that was interesting.

00:44:44   So there's an Engadget, the Engadget Roundup, they talk about it. Marcus Brownlee talks about it too. I don't know what to think about this.

00:44:53   Did it feel heavy to you back in June, Mike?

00:44:57   The way that I thought about it at the time, I don't really remember now, but I remember saying at the time, it reminded me of the AirPods Max. It was heavier than any headset I'd used.

00:45:12   But it didn't feel to me, again, with a 30 minute experience, like it was so bad, it was going to cause me a problem. Like, it wasn't the most comfortable thing that I'd worn.

00:45:23   But none of these things, they're not comfortable, like inherently they are not comfortable, but there is a level in which you are okay with it.

00:45:30   And I think that, I mean, I don't know, probably it will be that way. We'll see.

00:45:34   Like, there are a bunch of people that say they can't use AirPods Max because they're too heavy. But I use my AirPods Max fine.

00:45:40   I use my AirPods Max for nine hours at a time, right, that they are my airplane headphones.

00:45:46   And so I expect that there is an element of that. It's going to be everybody's own individual experiences, but that's the same again for like every product.

00:45:55   Like, I use a mouse that other people can't use. Stephen, do you use the mouse that I use now? You changed, right?

00:46:02   I'm using the MX Master 3S.

00:46:06   Yep. Yeah, but there was a time where you didn't want to use that mouse because you'd use something similar and it hurt your hands.

00:46:11   Yeah, the original MX Master didn't really work for me, but this one's pretty good. I've been using it, I don't know, six months.

00:46:17   But like this product will cause neck pain for some people. Like that is just inevitable.

00:46:23   Probably.

00:46:24   Different people will be able to experience it differently. Like, it being heavy doesn't mean that it's going to be bad.

00:46:30   It just, it's, look at the thing. You can see it's heavier than a Quest, right? Like we all knew this.

00:46:36   It also looks way nicer than a Quest.

00:46:39   Exactly. Like, you know, there's been a lot of people making fun of this and whatever, like it looks weird. Federico's post on threads was the very best one.

00:46:47   Where it was like, as if you were choosing a Fire from a video game. Very good. But like, I think of all of the devices that have existed, this is the best looking one.

00:46:57   Like, it doesn't mean it looks good, but I actually think it's handsomely designed. Like, I think the thing looks pretty cool. It's very futuristic.

00:47:06   It looks premium. It looks like something that costs three and a half thousand dollars, in my opinion.

00:47:10   Yeah.

00:47:11   It does.

00:47:12   Notably, one part of the design we haven't seen though is the eyesight feature. People who went in for these demos apparently got to see it, but no pictures of it and no video of it.

00:47:24   And so all we have is that press release photo.

00:47:28   I think the fact that it hasn't been panned by these people is actually pretty positive. Because I think it is the thing that has drawn the most criticism, right? Visually, I think, is the eyes.

00:47:45   And I think the fact that I have, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't come across anyone that said it was terrible, but it was just like a little bit weird or like a bit, you know, just strange.

00:47:57   Nobody said I was looking into the eyes of a monster.

00:48:01   Or that it was broken. Because there's been a lot of people, a lot of people have a lot of theories about this device.

00:48:07   And I've heard a lot of people saying, "Clearly the eyesight thing is not working and they've taken it out." Like, I don't know, you know, whatever.

00:48:15   We all draw our conspiracy theories from the way that we build our business on talking about what we think Apple might be doing.

00:48:22   But there's like a lot of conspiracy theories for a second.

00:48:25   I was like, "No, we don't."

00:48:26   I mean, it's not not, right? Sometimes it's not not that.

00:48:29   And I think that this is just a thing where it seems like it takes a lot of setup to do because it's related to creating your persona.

00:48:37   And I think they just like with everything, they want to control this part of the experience, the whole thing for as long as they possibly can before it gets out there.

00:48:44   But like, I think it was in the Engadget review, I think, where they said like, they saw somebody blink and it blinked.

00:48:51   Like, that's cool, man. Like, this is cool. You might not like it, but it seems to work.

00:48:58   Yeah. I do wonder if, and other people have said this too, it's not super original, like, is the eyesight something that they would lose if they try to make a cheaper version of it?

00:49:09   Because it's like a whole set of screens and sensors and stuff just for this.

00:49:15   And I'll be curious, I mean, in their initial talking about it, it seems very important to them that people around you know what sort of mode you're in, because if they can see your eyes, then they can see you.

00:49:29   And if they're in an immersive mode, it kind of has that blue screensaver thing.

00:49:34   And I wonder how important that really is to people in the real world, or if people even know the difference between them, right? If I'm using this and my wife can see my eyes, does she know that I can see her or is she going to be, you know, she's going to want me to take it off to have a conversation with her.

00:49:53   Like, so I just want to correct myself, it was Victoria's song in The Verge, and she said it's a bit goofy, but you can see the wearer's eyes, part of what Apple calls the persona. When Apple's Vision Pro demo person blinked, we saw a virtual version of their eyes blink.

00:50:07   Like, I believe that they believe this is an important part of the product. And so I would be surprised to see it go. And like, so in a scenario, Steven, where you are at home and you're using this thing, and Mary asks you a question, and you look at her and she can see your eyes, once the initial shock of that goes away, like, I think that is key that you can see her because we understand what that means.

00:50:36   Like, I think the idea is sound, right? That like, if you don't see the eyes, I can't see you. When you can see my eyes, I can see you. And the reason that works is because that's what life is like. Right? Like, if you can't see my eyes, I can't see you. If you see my eyes, I see you.

00:50:57   And like, and I think that that idea is interesting. And I would, I think people will get used to what that means. And I think I'm bullish on this idea, even though I know it's going to be strange, and it's going to be weird, and it is a bit dystopian. But if we're going to have to cover our faces, this at least feels like the best compromise.

00:51:21   Yeah, and I think that's what Apple's going for. I think that they are leaning on the fact that this is lifelike. I think you said it really well. I think even some of that came up when, oh, I forget his name, but the Apple executive who Gruber interviewed at the talk show this year, who was heavily involved.

00:51:36   Mike Rockwell?

00:51:37   Yes, Mike Rockwell. I think that was a lot of, I think he talked a lot about that too. I think it is important to them because they keep saying like, this is the first one of these devices that keeps you connected with people around you. And all, you know, kind of inherent or unsaid in that conversation is the meta quest has a piece of plastic over your eyes and you're completely cut off. And I do think there's an idea there that's good.

00:52:02   I just, I wonder how people are going to respond to the execution of it. Because if it's Uncanny Valley, like some of the persona stuff, which I think is labeled data and when this rolls out, is it going to turn people off to the whole thing? I just don't know. We're going to see how people respond to it.

00:52:20   It has to be Uncanny Valley. There's no world in which this couldn't be an Uncanny Valley because they're not actually your eyes. They're the best technology company in the world. They can't make it look like it's really your eyes. Like they can't do that. It's like they can't do that. That's madness, right? There's no way. But the thing about the eyesight, what happens on the other side is also interesting, right? That when someone can see my eyes, they've broken through my VR environment.

00:52:49   And that is also, these two things go together and I think it makes for a compelling part of the product. As goofy as it looks. And it does look goofy, but that's okay.

00:53:02   Maybe there's something about the goofiness that makes it endearing to some people. Maybe looking at it now, yeah, it's kind of strange and maybe even a little off-putting, but maybe that's okay because it makes it less threatening in a way? I don't know. I haven't used it. No one's really seen this. It's been able to talk about it. I guess we'll find out.

00:53:28   The less threatening is a really good way of putting it.

00:53:31   Yeah. I will say, during the announcement and stuff at WBC and afterwards, kind of showing Mary some of this stuff and talking about it with her, the eye thing kind of freaks her out.

00:53:48   I have no doubt it's going to freak a lot of people out. It's going to. But what I mean is I think that there will be a tailing off of that. There is the initial reaction and then you just kind of get used to it. Because if you think about the time that we've been in technology, these kinds of things have happened lots of times. Just look how mainstream those Ray-Bans have become.

00:54:12   Like the meta Ray-Bans with the camera. What people didn't like about Google Glass is it had a camera on it. But now the meta Ray-Bans are a mainstream product that people are just buying because it's cool and tech talk and you take fun videos.

00:54:27   And people aren't really asking that question anymore about, "Oh, but you've got a camera on me." Because we've moved so far from that point because there are cameras everywhere all the time in our faces and we just don't care about it the same.

00:54:41   Stuff moves on, right? This will be weird at first.

00:54:46   So what are our plans? What are our plans?

00:54:49   What are our plans? What are our plans? We are running a spectrum on this podcast of effort. There's all kinds of efforts going on. Do you want to start with Steven? Least effort?

00:55:04   Mine's the lowest effort. It's got to be up at 7 a.m. to order this thing. Apple rolled out some of those details about ordering and you're going to need a face ID equipped device to scan your face.

00:55:20   My plan is to be in my office, do the thing where I can have my laptop open and have my phone with me and see which one comes up first. It seems like if you start on the web, then it kicks you to the Apple Store app or maybe later you go in there and scan your face with face ID.

00:55:37   My plan is to pre-order because as we get to y'all's plans, I think I have the most likely chance of having one on day one. I spoke about this on more power users, but my interest in this is 75% professional talk about what Apple is doing with their new platform and only about 25% personal.

00:56:00   I don't know where this fits into my life or my work or whatever, but here we are. So yeah, my plan is to get up and drop a bunch of money on Friday morning.

00:56:11   Well, we all have the same chance of getting one, right? We all have the same chance of getting one. It's then just about like the way in which it is collected.

00:56:24   Yes.

00:56:26   I'm going to put Federico second on the effort scale.

00:56:30   Yeah. I created this whole system with John. I'm using a spare iPhone and a secondary Apple ID that belongs to John, that John was kind enough to set up for me.

00:56:46   So I will log into the Apple Store app with a VPN, pretending that I'm in the United States and that I am John Voorhees, purchasing a Vision Pro.

00:56:56   I am going to use that and I got to do it myself because of the face scan, right?

00:57:02   So I'm going to do it and put in the order using this VPN and an Apple ID that belongs to John method.

00:57:09   We have already tested this method and I, in fact, I bought a 30 pin dock connector for John from the Apple Store because he needed it for his revived iPod.

00:57:20   So the system works.

00:57:23   That was your test. What's the oldest thing in the App Store?

00:57:27   That was my test. That was my test. John should get it tomorrow.

00:57:31   Also, because I need the prescription, but Apple said that in order to get the prescription lenses, you're going to have to upload a valid prescription issued by a US eye care professional.

00:57:46   So I found a way to get one of those. I have a US prescription for my glasses, for my lenses.

00:57:53   I have a PDF ready to be uploaded to Apple's website.

00:57:57   So I will put in the order and I will upload the prescription.

00:58:01   I will also purchase the Belkin clip for the battery because why not?

00:58:08   And I'll have the Vision Pro delivered to John.

00:58:11   Then John will overnight it to me and I'm going to pay a very, very large amount of money on shipping and taxes for Italian customs.

00:58:22   Assuming that Italian customs will not block my Vision Pro, fingers crossed there.

00:58:28   And then hopefully I'll get it after a couple of days at home in Italy.

00:58:33   So that's my system.

00:58:35   As someone who has mailed three calendars to you and a bunch of other stuff over the years, I'm always jealous that John has a much higher success rate than I do.

00:58:47   Well, enter the beautiful world of DHL. That's the best shipping company in the world.

00:58:53   You can pay taxes online for customs.

00:58:56   Yeah, I buy so many things and I use DHL with so many of my purchases.

00:59:01   A few days ago, the DHL delivery guy that delivers packages in my area saw me and was like, "Hey, you're Federico."

00:59:09   And he said, "Yeah, I basically work for you." He told me.

00:59:12   So I don't know what to make of that.

00:59:15   I like that you bond with your shipping people wherever you live.

00:59:20   I don't know why. I don't know why. I don't know why.

00:59:22   Well, you do know why.

00:59:23   You do? It's this?

00:59:24   It's constant deliveries. That's why.

00:59:27   Yes, yes.

00:59:28   Constant weird deliveries.

00:59:29   I feel like we can't allow this to go past without just acknowledging John Voorhees.

00:59:36   Yes, thank you, John.

00:59:38   The lengths that that man is willing to go to to help you is incredible.

00:59:43   Put up with me also.

00:59:44   It's incredible.

00:59:45   Yeah.

00:59:46   It's incredible.

00:59:47   Yeah.

00:59:48   So effort.

00:59:49   I'm going to do all of what Federico did, right? I'm going to order one.

00:59:54   With John?

00:59:55   With John. No, I'm going to be at home trying to order one.

01:00:00   I am going to try and order from home and we'll see how that goes.

01:00:04   I can buy from Apple.com.

01:00:06   It's a thing that I can do.

01:00:08   So with all of my information, I've done it before, so that's going to be my thing.

01:00:14   I'm not setting up a second iCloud account or anything like that.

01:00:17   And so if they say, "Hey, you can't do this." Well, that's me out of the game.

01:00:20   But I'm going to be attempting to buy one.

01:00:23   If I place an order, I will select it to go somewhere in the US,

01:00:30   depending on, I don't know, what availability is or whatever.

01:00:33   Then I'm going to go get it.

01:00:34   In person.

01:00:36   In person.

01:00:37   In person. I'm going to go pick it up.

01:00:38   Like with an airplane and stuff.

01:00:39   Yep. I'm going to fly and go get it.

01:00:42   My thing is, if I'm doing this, if I'm really going for this,

01:00:46   if I'm putting the effort in to try and buy one of these things,

01:00:50   I'm not leaving anything to chance.

01:00:53   That's my approach.

01:00:55   That dude can't be trusted.

01:00:56   No, it's just like…

01:00:57   I was literally about to make the same joke and then I thought,

01:01:00   "Well, that's bad." And then Steven did, so yeah.

01:01:03   Of course.

01:01:04   But the chance is that…

01:01:07   What if it gets blocked at customs?

01:01:10   And also, if I'm going to do this thing, I want it on day one.

01:01:13   I don't want to wait.

01:01:15   The whole point is having it as soon as possible.

01:01:18   I'll meet you overnight, man. Two days.

01:01:20   Two days.

01:01:21   But also it's like…

01:01:22   Yeah, but I'll be there.

01:01:24   I'll be there getting it.

01:01:25   That's immediate.

01:01:26   That's not even waiting any days.

01:01:28   But yeah, that's my plan.

01:01:29   And it's been my plan for six months.

01:01:32   So I have prepared for this.

01:01:35   That is what I'm going to attempt to do.

01:01:39   And then I'll be in America recording podcasts and using a headset for a few days or whatever.

01:01:45   And that's when I'm going to try and we'll see how it goes.

01:01:48   But I'm kind of…

01:01:51   At the moment, I'm very much like,

01:01:53   "I'm going to do everything I can to try and do this.

01:01:55   If it doesn't work out for me, then it's just not meant to be."

01:01:58   And I'll pick it up down the line.

01:02:01   I also have a prescription. Federico helped me out.

01:02:04   I want to ask questions about that, but maybe not on the air.

01:02:08   Maybe it's best not to.

01:02:10   Did you just make it up in pages? Tell me the truth.

01:02:12   No, no, no. It's real. There's a doctor.

01:02:14   There's a doctor's signature.

01:02:16   This was one of those times where I'm glad I save everything.

01:02:19   I was like, "Oh, gosh. Where is my vision prescription?"

01:02:21   And then I remembered, "Oh, yeah.

01:02:23   I just have it scanned as a PDF in Apple Notes."

01:02:26   So I'm good to go.

01:02:28   Good to go.

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01:04:28   All right, so can we talk about these things that are done?

01:04:31   [ Laughter ]

01:04:35   -Probably we should, yes. -Just, you know, just quickly,

01:04:38   because, I mean, I recognize that it's a very peculiar thing

01:04:42   that I've done to my iPad Pro.

01:04:44   -Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. -So I published a story

01:04:46   on Mac stories about these mods that I've done to my iPad Pro

01:04:51   and specifically to the Magic Keyboard.

01:04:53   And, I mean, one of them is kind of pretty regular stuff.

01:04:58   I'm using the Paperlike screen protector,

01:05:01   and the other two are sort of somewhere

01:05:04   in the weird spectrum of things, especially the third one.

01:05:11   So I'm using a Paperlike because I wanted to get rid of,

01:05:16   you know, direct sunlight, reflections, smudges.

01:05:19   Even though that wasn't my top priority,

01:05:21   I really wanted to have a better way to work with the iPad Pro

01:05:24   while I'm waiting in my car

01:05:26   or just when I want to work outside on my balcony.

01:05:28   The second mod is --

01:05:31   I've been using these magnetic mounting clips

01:05:35   made by a company called Rolling Square.

01:05:38   I'm sure if you are into tech and iPads and MagSafe,

01:05:42   you must have seen these on Instagram as advertisements.

01:05:45   They've been everywhere.

01:05:47   So this is a magnetic clip that I attached

01:05:50   to the back of the Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro

01:05:52   and allows me to mount the iPhone next to my iPad Pro.

01:05:57   Usually this product is used to mount smartphones

01:06:00   or small tablets next to a laptop display

01:06:03   or next to something like a studio display, for example,

01:06:06   an external monitor.

01:06:08   And the third and weirder mod

01:06:12   is the two additional Rolling Square mounting clips.

01:06:18   They are called the Edge Pro mounting clips

01:06:21   to put two portable, very small speakers in stereo mode

01:06:28   next to the sides, like on the sides of the iPad Pro.

01:06:33   Any questions?

01:06:35   Yeah.

01:06:38   Are you familiar with the SNL skit with David S. Pumpkins?

01:06:44   No.

01:06:46   It was Tom Hanks and he was dressed as a pumpkin guy

01:06:49   and he's dancing and then he does this whole weird dance.

01:06:52   He goes, "Any questions?"

01:06:54   You just reminded me of that.

01:06:56   You will have seen this at the time.

01:06:57   It was one of those things that became a meme for a while.

01:07:00   Anyway.

01:07:01   Does the iPad want to topple back

01:07:03   with all this extra weight on it?

01:07:04   No, no, no.

01:07:05   It's still heavier than the small speakers.

01:07:09   They're made by a company called, how do you pronounce it?

01:07:12   Skoshy?

01:07:13   Skoshy?

01:07:14   Skosh?

01:07:15   I have no idea how it's pronounced.

01:07:17   But no, the iPad doesn't topple over.

01:07:19   It's still heavier than all of that.

01:07:22   The mounting clips are pretty thin.

01:07:24   They're like 2.5 millimeters thin.

01:07:27   There's a photo in the story

01:07:29   where you can see the thickness from the sides.

01:07:32   And yeah, no, the iPad stays pretty stable

01:07:36   and even when the iPhone is mounted,

01:07:39   so for example, let's say that I'm typing

01:07:41   with the iPad on my lap

01:07:43   and the iPhone is resting on the magnetic mount

01:07:46   kind of like floating there on the left side of the iPad.

01:07:50   It doesn't wobble.

01:07:51   It doesn't detach because of the MagSafe connection

01:07:54   that there is in the back.

01:07:56   Obviously there is no actual MagSafe.

01:07:58   It's just magnets.

01:07:59   But yeah, it's using the magnets of MagSafe.

01:08:03   Is this like a transformer?

01:08:05   Yes.

01:08:06   It's like so many people on Mastodon and Threads

01:08:08   have sent me pictures of the,

01:08:10   do you guys remember the Handy Boy?

01:08:12   Yeah.

01:08:13   Like in the '90s,

01:08:15   those Game Boy mods with extra controls

01:08:18   and a magnifying glass on top of it,

01:08:20   extra buttons and these wings on the side.

01:08:24   That's the idea.

01:08:25   Yeah.

01:08:26   I don't know.

01:08:27   Look, sometimes I do things just for the chaos

01:08:32   of doing those things, like for the meme of it,

01:08:34   but there is a meme component to this,

01:08:37   but actually I am using these things in real life every day.

01:08:41   Like I was using the speakers this morning.

01:08:43   I use them every time I'm in the car, I'm using them.

01:08:47   Yeah, it's not just chaos for the sake of chaos.

01:08:53   It's I'm actually using them.

01:08:55   I will say Chris Lawley one up to you

01:08:57   doing it with an iPad Mini on the side.

01:08:59   Yes.

01:09:00   So Rolling Square, they also advertise the tablet mount,

01:09:04   which should work if you use two mounting clips

01:09:08   instead of just one.

01:09:10   I may try the iPad Mini one because it looks fun.

01:09:14   You have referenced this in your article about,

01:09:18   they also say about sticking an iPad onto a laptop.

01:09:22   It just feels like a quick way to break both things.

01:09:25   Yeah, it makes me uneasy compared to just putting an iPhone there.

01:09:30   I would love some follow up from Chris Lawley

01:09:34   if he listens to the show.

01:09:35   Like if he taps that iPad,

01:09:37   does it not the whole thing just not like fly off his lap?

01:09:40   Like I don't understand how the balance of this is working.

01:09:44   Because it's like very strange to put the laptop on here.

01:09:50   I'm obviously very intrigued about what you've done

01:09:53   because you do incredible things, Federico.

01:09:56   You live your life for the content, you know,

01:09:59   and I appreciate that about you.

01:10:01   I have some questions though if you'll indulge me.

01:10:04   I really recommend, we can't explain this to you,

01:10:07   you have to go look at the images.

01:10:09   It really doesn't make sense until you see what he's done.

01:10:12   So there will be a link in the show notes,

01:10:14   you've got to go check it out.

01:10:16   You really seem to dig the new Paperlike

01:10:19   and you reference a bunch of times about image clarity.

01:10:22   And I remember when we tried it before,

01:10:24   one of the things I didn't like about the Paperlike

01:10:27   is I felt like it was affecting the vibrancy of the color of my screen.

01:10:30   Is that still the case?

01:10:32   I think they've done a much better job.

01:10:34   So they have this new version, the Paperlike 2.1.

01:10:37   They switched to a different material

01:10:40   compared to the Paperlike 2 or even the first gen Paperlike.

01:10:43   So this version 2.1, they're using this Swiss product or something.

01:10:47   They have a web page with the details.

01:10:50   I was a Paperlike 1 user, so many, many years ago.

01:10:55   And I really disliked it because I felt like it toned down

01:11:00   all the colors and the vibrancy and it made the small text blurry.

01:11:03   I really didn't like it.

01:11:05   I think obviously there is always going to be some image degradation

01:11:11   when you apply these films.

01:11:13   They're not completely transparent,

01:11:15   especially the ones that want to make your iPad a matte display.

01:11:19   But I guess there's a threshold of degradation.

01:11:23   And for the Paperlike 2.1, I'm fine with it.

01:11:27   But I also know, and I wrote this in the article,

01:11:29   as soon as I have an OLED iPad, I'm not going to apply the Paperlike.

01:11:33   Because pure OLED maybe, I mean, you know, go OLED all the way.

01:11:38   This is like the typical swan song for this iPad,

01:11:45   just living the last days of its life, this M2 iPad Pro,

01:11:49   just before the M3 OLED iPad launched with a new design.

01:11:54   And they're living their final days in the land of the weird with all these things.

01:12:00   And it's fun.

01:12:01   But yeah, to answer your question, I think it's much better than it used to be,

01:12:05   to the point where it doesn't bother me.

01:12:08   I just want to make a statement as somebody who's…

01:12:10   I don't know if you noticed, but I like pens and paper.

01:12:13   Weird.

01:12:14   It's like a thing for me.

01:12:16   Nothing will make an iPad and Apple Pencil feel like pen and paper.

01:12:22   It's just not going to happen.

01:12:24   The Apple Pencil cannot…

01:12:26   What you feel with paper is like a toothiness because there's fibers, right?

01:12:30   And when you run a pen along a piece of paper,

01:12:33   the pen is interacting with the fibers.

01:12:37   This is just not going to happen on an… anyway.

01:12:40   What benefits does this provide to you than just using apps in Stage Manager?

01:12:46   What is the iPhone on the side doing that that couldn't do?

01:12:51   It's useful to keep a permanent thing always there,

01:12:57   like timers or music lyrics, so that it's one last window to manage.

01:13:04   I guess would be a nice way to put it.

01:13:07   It's like having a mini physical dashboard always there.

01:13:11   Like either the home screen with the widgets or the music lyrics.

01:13:16   Just keep it always there so that I don't have to…

01:13:21   Because if I'm working with Stage Manager,

01:13:23   but I also want to keep those lyrics always on the side,

01:13:26   that becomes a window that I always need to pull along to manage.

01:13:31   And this way, I don't have to do that.

01:13:34   I have one final question for you.

01:13:36   Are you leaving your iPhone unlocked and like screen on all the time?

01:13:40   Oh, yeah.

01:13:41   Because I feel like it's the only way this works, right?

01:13:43   Oh, yeah. I should have clarified that. Yes, I do.

01:13:47   I lock my phone. I'm a control freak. You know me.

01:13:49   So I lock my phone when I decide to lock my phone.

01:13:52   We've had this conversation before.

01:13:54   I remember now you don't have auto lock turned on, do you?

01:13:58   I do now. Life is too short to have settings change stuff for you.

01:14:01   Yes, life is too short.

01:14:04   What about auto brightness? Is that off too?

01:14:07   No, it's on. It's on.

01:14:09   Wow, you're just letting the man control you.

01:14:12   I remember this. I remember this.

01:14:14   I lived for many years with manual brightness.

01:14:17   I remember.

01:14:18   And then I gave up. So, you know, I'm...

01:14:21   These phones got too bright at a certain point, in my opinion, to try and live that way.

01:14:24   Exactly. And I can be flexible. I can be flexible.

01:14:28   [laughs]

01:14:30   Just slap some magnets on it.

01:14:32   You're very flexible.

01:14:33   Mm-hmm.

01:14:35   Well, I think that does it for this week.

01:14:37   If you want to find links to the stuff we spoke about,

01:14:39   including Federico's iPad monstrosity, check out the show notes.

01:14:43   They're in your podcast player. They're also on the web at relay.fm/connected/485.

01:14:49   While you're there, you can send us feedback or follow-up.

01:14:52   There's a form on the website to do so. The link is in the show notes.

01:14:55   And you can also find the link to become a member.

01:14:57   Connected Pro members get longer ad-free episodes each and every week.

01:15:02   Members also get access to the Relay Members Discord, newsletter, a couple of members-only podcasts.

01:15:07   It's a whole lot of fun starting at just $5 a month.

01:15:10   If you want more of us, for some reason, you can find us online.

01:15:13   Mike is the host of a bunch of other shows here on relay.fm,

01:15:17   and you can check out his work at cortexbrand.com.

01:15:20   Federico is the editor-in-chief of MacStories.net.

01:15:23   We didn't get time to talk about it today, but you've added a bunch of people to the staff.

01:15:26   A lot of fun stuff going on over at MacStories.

01:15:29   So go check that out.

01:15:30   You can find me at 512pixels.net, and I co-host MacPower users each and every Sunday.

01:15:36   Here on relay.fm.

01:15:38   You can find us on Macedon and Threads.

01:15:42   There's a lot of... just search us.

01:15:44   There's too much to read this week.

01:15:45   You can just find us there.

01:15:46   We're out there.

01:15:47   You know who we are.

01:15:48   You know who we are.

01:15:49   And if you don't, why are you still here?

01:15:51   You know what I'm saying?

01:15:52   Get out.

01:15:53   Wow.

01:15:54   Wow.

01:15:55   You can...

01:15:57   I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, NetSuite and Nom Nom.

01:16:01   And until next time, guys, say goodbye.

01:16:04   Adios, dete chí.

01:16:05   at you cheerio bye y'all