00:00:31 ◼ ► It's a, it's a mind bender of, of like of a type that I've never, ever experienced before.
00:00:38 ◼ ► We're capturing ourselves in like eight different ways and also simultaneously viewing ourselves and listening to ourselves in eight different ways.
00:00:47 ◼ ► And we've had to figure out how they all connect to each other and what it's all going to turn into for the listener.
00:00:55 ◼ ► And that is the most mind bending exercise in cognition that I worry I'm not able to compute.
00:01:05 ◼ ► Let me also put up front too, that if all goes well, knock on wood, we're going to have a YouTube version of this, which is our personas looking at each other talking.
00:01:15 ◼ ► And so you might want to, if you're in your podcast player, just listening to the audio, if you're thinking, huh, maybe I'd rather do the YouTube version.
00:01:27 ◼ ► I simply ordered it because I know enough now that I don't have to wait in line for the thing.
00:01:38 ◼ ► Definitely spent the night, you know, in front of the Apple store when iPhone one came out, but I, I really just enjoy the convenience of it being shipped.
00:01:46 ◼ ► Now it was getting later in the afternoon on ship day and my, my few friends who had ordered it, theirs had arrived already and I was getting impatient.
00:02:04 ◼ ► That's what you always say, which is a very, my dad thing to say, can I save you a trip?
00:02:16 ◼ ► I do remember there was one time in the early years, I don't know if it was an iPhone or what, where I.
00:02:30 ◼ ► My buying experience is obviously always different than everybody's because I don't necessarily need to buy it because I've had the review unit since beforehand, but I did buy one.
00:02:53 ◼ ► Because I feel like with this product, it's different and I don't need to do that with a iPhone or certainly not a Mac.
00:03:06 ◼ ► So the second day and the weirdest part about it was that I got a different light seal size in person at the store than I did when I measured myself.
00:03:18 ◼ ► And when I was out in Cupertino before getting my review unit with Apple, you know, we did the face measuring thing and for privacy sake there, you know, I've done this.
00:03:32 ◼ ► And every single time I would do the face scan over a because I guess the software was evolving and they wanted me to use the latest version of the measure your head with the phone thing.
00:03:41 ◼ ► And then B for privacy reasons, even if I said, just go ahead and keep my eyesight prescription and keep my face size, they wouldn't keep it for privacy.
00:03:51 ◼ ► But like two weeks ago before I got the review unit, I was out in Cupertino for the final briefings before this thing came out and did the face scan again.
00:04:09 ◼ ► And so both in Cupertino for my review unit and at home when I scanned it myself for the one I bought both times it came up as a 25W.
00:04:21 ◼ ► You know how these things there's I think they go from 18 to 33 for sizes and they're all either N or W.
00:04:38 ◼ ► It wasn't like, oh, in Cupertino I got a 24 and then at home I got a 25 or something like that.
00:04:44 ◼ ► But then on Saturday night when I went to pick up the one I ordered at the Apple store, they were very nice.
00:04:56 ◼ ► They did kind of know who I was a couple or one of the guy who kind of gave me the guided tour had no idea, which is kind of the way I wanted it.
00:05:37 ◼ ► So it was like a nice little party there with like a guy, a couple of guys from the Apple store, me and Amy.
00:05:42 ◼ ► But then after my guided tour, it seemed like a real dilemma and it seemed like it was an unusual situation.
00:05:50 ◼ ► It seemed like most customers who had pre ordered if they got size 25W then in the store, they got it again, just like I did in Cupertino and at home.
00:06:16 ◼ ► But two weeks earlier at home and in Cupertino, I got a 25W and this totally triggers my sort of OCD that I have the exact right size.
00:06:42 ◼ ► I said, I guess and again, it was helpful that, you know, it was all out in the open who I was and what I do.
00:06:48 ◼ ► I said, well, because I have the 25W from the review unit at home, why don't I just swap it out, do the swap out here and I'll take the 33 that I'm measuring with here.
00:06:58 ◼ ► And so now I have two vision pros, my review unit and my the one I own and I have two different size light shields, 25W and 33W.
00:07:40 ◼ ► And again, if I look at them side by side as closely as I can, just take both of them off and just look at the light seals on their own.
00:07:48 ◼ ► And they're, you know, for those of you who don't have one yet, they're super easy to attach and detach.
00:07:53 ◼ ► In fact, they're so easy to attach and detach that it's like the number one thing you have to learn is not to pick up the whole device by the light seal because it just magnetically pops right off.
00:08:01 ◼ ► If I look at the two light seals on their own side by side, I with my eyes, I can't see what the difference is.
00:08:07 ◼ ► It doesn't look like one if I stack them on a table, it's like, oh, this one's a half a centimeter taller or something like that.
00:08:25 ◼ ► So in other words, exactly at the spot on my face where now that I'm getting older, I'm developing crows feet, right?
00:08:36 ◼ ► The 33 just feels like a wider set of goggles, even though when I look at them side by side, I can't see that it's wider and it just feels a little wider.
00:08:45 ◼ ► And it I'm not used to it because I spent so much time during my review process with that 25.
00:08:57 ◼ ► Well, wider seems like what you would want because it's just it's giving you a wider birth.
00:09:03 ◼ ► The one thing I know from early use is you don't want to scrunch your face because that actually has an impact on your facial expression in your in your digital persona.
00:09:12 ◼ ► The first time I put mine on and got on a face call, I realized that it was like sitting weird against my forehead.
00:09:23 ◼ ► I just think you want more comfort in that realm, like a little bit of a looser fit, you know, a dad gene of a
00:09:30 ◼ ► So I that's and so if you told me right now you have to pack up your vision pro and leave your house for a month and you can only take one of them with you.
00:09:50 ◼ ► And I've seen some people speculate that these sizes aren't really is that the N and W are more size, you know, now or wide and that the numbers relate more to curvature types and that some are for flatter faces and some are for rounder faces.
00:10:07 ◼ ► And it's not necessarily a size per se, but this maybe feels Yeah, maybe it's just a vibe.
00:10:30 ◼ ► And I know that my experience might be like two degrees different with the light seal that Tim chose for me.
00:10:52 ◼ ► But I think I'm just going to go with the 33 and it just it feels like it disappears on my face more than the other one, which I think can only be a good thing.
00:11:02 ◼ ► It's because this is at the end of the day, this is hardware that you don't want to feel.
00:11:09 ◼ ► That's part of this conversation is we have to sort of like define what this thing is and what it isn't.
00:11:22 ◼ ► But I mean, you know, like having used it for a week now, that's my single greatest takeaway is that when you've been using it all day or for hours or whatever it is, it's supposed to disappear.
00:11:40 ◼ ► And it should be so stark that when you get up to pee and you go and pass by yourself in the mirror, you're like, oh, oh, that's right.
00:11:52 ◼ ► And you're supposed to forget about it in the way that you are never going to forget that you're using a laptop or an iPhone.
00:12:01 ◼ ► Yeah. And it's so hard to explain that because it's both simultaneously true for me and not true that I never quite forget that I've got a very face heavy thing on my head.
00:12:16 ◼ ► When it's doing the job of immersing you in the digital experience in front of you, then you've kind of forgotten about it.
00:12:23 ◼ ► But that's kind of a rare thing to happen because for the most part, you are being reminded of the physicality of the thing, whether it's tethered to your pocket or whether somebody walks into the room and they're like, ha ha idiot.
00:12:45 ◼ ► So I, I don't know if I should have saved this for the end or just get it out of the way at the beginning, but I feel like I want to get it out of the way.
00:12:57 ◼ ► And I find myself losing time in this device in a way that I haven't lost time with a device in decades.
00:13:08 ◼ ► I think I had the same sort of experience with the iPhone in 2007 when it was brand new, but because that device was so small, it didn't quite feel.
00:13:27 ◼ ► What to me it goes back to is when I first got my first Mac in college in 1991 as a freshman, I was in college for such an interesting period of years because in 1991 the dorms at Drexel didn't even have Ethernet, let alone Wi-Fi.
00:14:00 ◼ ► It was, would have been ridiculous to just in the period from my freshman to senior year of college, it went from nobody has Internet and almost nobody has email to everybody's on the Internet all the time.
00:14:18 ◼ ► But I, in my freshman year in particular, like I just spent all of my free time on my computer in my dorm room, even though we didn't have the Internet.
00:14:31 ◼ ► I wasn't a partier, you know, hardly ever went to like fraternity parties or whatever else freshmen would do.
00:14:47 ◼ ► Wasn't like I was a total shut in, you know, and I had a bunch of friends who I kept for the rest of college.
00:14:56 ◼ ► But for the most part, what I how I remember my entire freshman year of college was just spending lots and lots of time on my Mac in my dorm room, not even networked.
00:15:09 ◼ ► And then by the end of the year, I've told this story on the podcast before we set up the what was it called the Apple Talk network.
00:15:16 ◼ ► It was just like stereo cable, like just copper wire that we hung through the drop ceiling through the floor and then dropped into everybody's room so we could play the game Specter together.
00:15:35 ◼ ► Like in my roommate, my freshman year did pledge a fraternity and he would, you know, Friday and Saturday nights was off and out.
00:15:54 ◼ ► It wasn't like I was like looking at porn or anything like that wasn't that I wanted to be alone for privacy sake.
00:16:06 ◼ ► And it's the same answer as what we're doing right now and why we want to spend time in it.
00:16:11 ◼ ► Because you want to be immersed in that world because you've never been there before and it's super exciting and it's almost euphoric because you're doing stuff that you've never felt before.
00:16:20 ◼ ► And it's exactly the same for the first Mac experience or whatever it was that transformed you into a person that wanted to live and work in technology for the rest of your life.
00:16:32 ◼ ► There were some weekends where maybe I was playing Leisure Suit Larry or whatever the hot games were of 1991 for the Mac.
00:16:46 ◼ ► But a lot of times I was just like in ResEdit just taking apart like an application and remaking the icons, you know, in the icon editor inside ResEdit.
00:17:04 ◼ ► My roommate would leave, say he's going to a party and next thing I know it's 2 30 in the morning and he's coming back in the room and I'm still sitting there.
00:17:18 ◼ ► And then I look up in the corner of my Mac and see that five hours have gone by and I'm finding myself having that sort of, I can't believe this.
00:17:29 ◼ ► And the way it manifests itself with this device in particular is I know it's fully charged.
00:17:39 ◼ ► I've been saving up a couple of these YouTube videos that I wanted to watch on the device about the device.
00:18:10 ◼ ► Also, you should just jack into your power when you're not moving around, up, walking around.
00:18:15 ◼ ► It's just good hygiene, good practice to just connect it to power because it is going to run out.
00:18:46 ◼ ► I think the one thing that is less often talked about among early vision pro users is that there
00:19:11 ◼ ► Like if you move the mouse around, then the arrow on the screen moves and you can go up.
00:19:15 ◼ ► You move your hand forward, it goes up and you select a word and then it drops down a list of words.
00:19:26 ◼ ► And I think that that's actually where we kind of are with the vision pro is we're still learning
00:19:55 ◼ ► You know, I heard Marco on ATP saying that he discovered that he would look at a thing.
00:20:01 ◼ ► And before his fingers had tapped it, he was already looking away because he's looking at
00:20:18 ◼ ► And in the same way that like that Mac LC had a 12 inch display on a cramped dorm desk.
00:20:25 ◼ ► And it's like, well, how can you get fully immersed in a 12 inch display on a, by today's
00:20:31 ◼ ► standards, incredibly slow computer that had no connection to the outside world other than
00:20:40 ◼ ► And so in a sense, I would fully immerse myself and just be lost for five, six hours back
00:20:58 ◼ ► Everybody sort of learned that I think when they brought computers in their house where
00:21:02 ◼ ► it's like, or at least if somebody was enthusiastic about it, it's like you kind of need to make
00:21:18 ◼ ► reminders that you're wearing a thing on your head that weighs you down and that there's
00:21:37 ◼ ► that's projected onto screens in front of your eyes and you do pass in front of a mirror
00:21:46 ◼ ► There's a part of your brain that forgets you're wearing it and another part that can't
00:22:34 ◼ ► So who knows when we get to the equivalent of the version four where it really does start
00:23:06 ◼ ► I tried to get at this in my review, but like eventually we will look at this set of Vision Pro
00:23:31 ◼ ► hit me until afterwards and sort of picking it up from other people's reviews and like,
00:23:49 ◼ ► I don't feel lonely being in that week period where I have a review unit and most of the
00:24:32 ◼ ► I couldn't wait for everybody else to start getting them because it's like, I need other
00:24:48 ◼ ► that one of the weirdest things about this product is fake reality that you immerse yourself
00:25:14 ◼ ► They've either photographed or I guess with the moon rendered this stuff at the highest
00:25:24 ◼ ► And when you encounter dinosaurs, right, it's all 3D rendered at the highest possible fidelity.
00:25:29 ◼ ► Or you look at the documentary they have of the woman on the tight rope up on top of the
00:25:35 ◼ ► Well, that was shot with crazy expensive like 8K cameras or something like multiple 8K cameras
00:25:50 ◼ ► sort of effectively like cell phone quality cameras that have to go do the pipeline processing
00:26:05 ◼ ► You would just expect, well, reality surely is the easy part and virtual reality is the
00:26:24 ◼ ► I don't think that I have the same experience and it might just be because of my own knowledge
00:26:45 ◼ ► Like high, really high res with depth mapping so that everything parallaxes when you move
00:27:01 ◼ ► I thought that we were all kind of like this is that we're so used to observing the world
00:27:11 ◼ ► That we're comfortable with the degradation of the re of, of, you know, it's all mediated
00:27:26 ◼ ► And so I, I, I don't think I value necessarily the synthetic environments as much as just
00:28:02 ◼ ► It's really important to be able to communicate and share these experiences with the device
00:28:10 ◼ ► or with the tech early on with other people who are in there and feeling what you feel.
00:28:22 ◼ ► He got, he got one on the same day and we're just like spending all day and in it and like
00:28:36 ◼ ► And so that we could see the same thing because if we're going to be rendering CG models for
00:29:04 ◼ ► And on the one hand, and she was really worried about it because she has like the way her
00:29:51 ◼ ► And that was with my corrective lens inserts, which I think are a little too strong for
00:30:21 ◼ ► And for the most part, if somebody just picks up your vision pro and tries to put it on,
00:31:51 ◼ ► And unfortunately there's that friction because it needs to calibrate to their eyes in order
00:32:02 ◼ ► To me, I've had a good experience with it so far, except for the one time that mirroring
00:32:12 ◼ ► And then there's like the uncomfortableness of handing over your unlocked device to somebody,
00:32:38 ◼ ► So because, so Roxanna, my partner, it was a few days that I had the vision pro at home
00:33:44 ◼ ► moment where it actually did click for her, other than moving windows around and seeing
00:33:48 ◼ ► in stereo, it's showing her a spatial video that I shot from Christmas morning with our
00:34:02 ◼ ► And do you find yourself, I find myself continuously and poor Amy is my victim because Jonas is
00:34:43 ◼ ► It comes back to this level of immersiveness and not the immersiveness in a fake world,
00:34:47 ◼ ► like the mountain tops or the surface of the moon, but the immersiveness of these windows
00:35:17 ◼ ► Like there's this sense of a shared experience that is really important to this device.
00:35:23 ◼ ► And I think that the device really takes flight or this platform really takes flight when
00:35:32 ◼ ► You know, what Apple calls the shared space right now is in Vision OS when multiple apps
00:36:12 ◼ ► But man, is that going to be sweet when we can look at the same windows in the same space,
00:36:34 ◼ ► One is if you and your colleague are literally in the same room together, like you could
00:36:41 ◼ ► And then you'd want to have a shared window that you both see in the shared space as appearing
00:36:54 ◼ ► And then there's what if you're in Los Angeles and your pal Gruber's in Philadelphia and
00:37:26 ◼ ► But I think that that kind of thing is something like, again, that's just like a UI pattern
00:37:42 ◼ ► And I guess one of the apps that I've spent, I like opened it up and poked around a little,
00:38:20 ◼ ► And they were like, well, let's build it for the phone and Mac and iPad first, and then
00:38:28 ◼ ► And there's all kinds of like handoff stuff and universal control stuff that the concept
00:39:01 ◼ ► But the fact that we can just figure it out and that's, again, that's just mind-blowing
00:39:08 ◼ ► Not only are all these windows able to exist in the same space, and that is literally spatial
00:39:14 ◼ ► computing, but we're actually bringing our devices from outside of this space and inviting
00:39:24 ◼ ► All right, let me take a break here and bring this back to a normal episode of the show
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00:41:40 ◼ ► There's so much to talk about with this thing, and I've made a lot of notes, but I think.
00:41:53 ◼ ► One thing that I've noticed now after a week is the space that you're using it in makes
00:42:14 ◼ ► It's secret until launch, but it's in the media video space and it's and it's fun, but.
00:42:33 ◼ ► So when I went to the developer lab and don't talk about developer lab, the one thing I
00:42:38 ◼ ► can say is that when they put you in a cubicle, basically, you're sitting there and you're
00:43:14 ◼ ► And it was, you need to be able to throw windows into the distance and prioritize them based
00:43:19 ◼ ► on the closeness to you and to be able to scale them up and down based on what you need
00:43:27 ◼ ► But then a couple of days ago, I took it to the office so that we could do some like TikTok
00:43:34 ◼ ► And our office is a big open loft space and it was an entirely different experience using
00:44:41 ◼ ► I almost feel like maybe that's part of the point of making the virtual environment such
00:44:45 ◼ ► a top level part of the system is that, okay, if you are in a physical, your real room is
00:44:59 ◼ ► I think what we really want, this is an elemental thing that what humans really want is the
00:45:10 ◼ ► Is when we can look up into the sky and sort of like know that we exist as part of this
00:45:17 ◼ ► I know that like, if I can look out over the lake, the virtual lake and put a screen out
00:46:05 ◼ ► But now it's, it's, it's mostly transparent because it doesn't want me to put that window
00:46:19 ◼ ► The fade doesn't happen if you're in a giant room or if you're actually looking out into
00:46:32 ◼ ► Another thing, just talking about space and scale and windows and stuff, what you would
00:46:58 ◼ ► But what they're actually doing is they're scaling it down to compensate for the distance
00:47:03 ◼ ► So it's actually doing this as you push it out, it's scaling up as it gets further from
00:47:24 ◼ ► And that's actually a very enjoyable experience to have things feel like they're more physical
00:47:40 ◼ ► I can't say it better than you, but it's not what I expected, but I see why they did it
00:47:48 ◼ ► It's got this dolly zoom effect or like in the show, Severance, when he goes up and down
00:47:59 ◼ ► he gets to work, it does a dolly zoom effect where the focal length of the lens changes
00:48:08 ◼ ► And it just has this weird sort of like time warpy effect for you when you move a window.
00:48:30 ◼ ► Like, I feel like this is, I don't know that I want to do this every week or every episode
00:48:44 ◼ ► But on the one hand, it does feel and sound like the most intimate episode of this show
00:49:06 ◼ ► It's a totally different experience recording a podcast with somebody and looking at each
00:50:05 ◼ ► It's like somehow by far more infinite than any remote episode of the show I've ever done.
00:50:30 ◼ ► I have been playing around with, while we're talking, I've been playing around with moving
00:51:42 ◼ ► they could figure out how to route the sound back to the Vision instead of just playing
00:51:57 ◼ ► the sound effects in the OS are like really rich and deep and sci-fi and cool sounding.
00:52:03 ◼ ► But the one that is not is when you send a text message to someone and it goes, is that
00:52:12 ◼ ► And I don't know why, I don't know why they thinned that out so much, but it feels like
00:52:30 ◼ ► And I also realized that for anybody watching the personas on the YouTube, the video version,
00:52:45 ◼ ► Right, but I know that you're looking around your environment, so I don't think it's weird.
00:52:53 ◼ ► the video, but it doesn't seem unnatural to me that you're not holding my gaze for over
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00:55:29 ◼ ► >> If we're sort of like coming to the final act of the episode, I want to talk about the
00:55:46 ◼ ► devices that there are and see if we can come to some sort of conclusion of meaning of where
00:56:06 ◼ ► you know, the way it moves, the way it feels, the constraints of it, what it doesn't have,
00:56:42 ◼ ► And then everything else you install just gets sorted in alphabetical order after that.
00:56:47 ◼ ► >> Which is kind of crap because sometimes your favorite apps are later in the alphabet.
00:56:53 ◼ ► My app starts with a T, so that's a problem. But I think reordering is probably coming.
00:56:58 ◼ ► I also sort of wonder whether, similar to the watch, you know, it's been years and years,
00:57:03 ◼ ► I think it hasn't been since the first watch that I actually had the grid view of the app
00:57:15 ◼ ► apps or remove some of the icons or whatever, or just take apps off of your watch. So I
00:57:20 ◼ ► wonder if there's maybe like an intermediary solve is whether there's like an app on the
00:57:25 ◼ ► iPhone or something that allows you to reorder or manage your vision of OS apps. Might be
00:57:33 ◼ ► >> Yeah, maybe. I don't know. What do you think about it so far? I guess the other thing
00:57:55 ◼ ► it's kind of, it's a little bit of friction to navigate over in the home screen and, you
00:58:05 ◼ ► again are like Slack and Calendar and things that things aren't native in vision yet, but
00:58:24 ◼ ► >> Right, yeah. I don't know what's coming there. The other thing, I mean, I don't mind
00:58:44 ◼ ► you can just like keep a lot of windows open at the same time and then just turn your head
00:58:55 ◼ ► that way that it's the only other device that has multi-app, like this kind of multi-app
00:59:06 ◼ ► >> Yeah. I like it. Visually, I didn't realize this until a few days in, but spiritually,
00:59:13 ◼ ► it's the most similar to the watch home screen, right? In the way that it looks, the iconic
00:59:33 ◼ ► and they sort of like de-focus on the edges. It's really interesting in that way. I don't
00:59:44 ◼ ► >> I think it's interesting and I keep calling it a home screen too, but they call it the
00:59:58 ◼ ► the whole home view sort of is the dock. It's just a dock with everything. I don't know.
01:00:04 ◼ ► Again, it's just one of those things where it is like our biggest complaint, or at least
01:00:09 ◼ ► the most obvious complaint is that you can't reorder the apps or customize the order. And
01:00:14 ◼ ► I don't know what the answer is to that. Presumably, I would think it would just be like the iPhone
01:00:33 ◼ ► losing half an hour of time just thinking about. And I'll just sit there and play with it and
01:00:38 ◼ ► slide it back and forth. I don't want to do it right now. I just don't want to screw up
01:00:45 ◼ ► this call. You know what I mean? Because I do find myself occasionally screwing things up
01:00:55 ◼ ► to activate them because the tab is relatively small and the button is part of the tab. And so
01:01:03 ◼ ► it's pretty easy to be looking at the close button when you want to close the tab or when you just
01:01:08 ◼ ► want to activate the tab. And there's a couple of other things. And it gets back to your point
01:01:12 ◼ ► that Marco mentioned where it's almost like I feel so comfortable basically with the look at it with
01:01:21 ◼ ► my eyes, tap it with my index finger and thumb that I went from feeling, "Oh, this is weird and novel.
01:01:30 ◼ ► I better go slow." That only lasted like a minute back in June when I had my first demo at WWDC.
01:01:39 ◼ ► And every experience since, I feel like I want to, I feel like a precocious child who wants to
01:01:46 ◼ ► impress the teacher by racing ahead and zipping through this interface as fast as I can.
01:01:52 ◼ ► But the truth is I can think faster than my eyes can stay on the same target while my fingers tap.
01:02:03 ◼ ► Right? And so that thing Marco said, and I've seen other people in their reviews mention it,
01:02:08 ◼ ► is you look at the button and you know you want to tap it and you see that it's highlighted and
01:02:15 ◼ ► your fingers start to do the tap and your eyes are already moving on to the next thing you want to do
01:02:20 ◼ ► and then your eye, by the time your fingers actually tap, your eyes are somewhere else.
01:02:26 ◼ ► And so it is, I guess that's, I don't know why I'm bringing it up in the context of the home screen
01:02:34 ◼ ► or home view. No, no, it's all right. It's all in the same category of just like how do we manage
01:02:40 ◼ ► all this stuff and move around in it. And to me it connects to the home screen because,
01:02:45 ◼ ► or the home view, because something that I'm doing in the Mac and the iPhone, iPad, whatever,
01:02:51 ◼ ► is constantly switching between apps. And I find that without a keyboard, there's just no great
01:02:58 ◼ ► way to do that, to do app switching. Like I'm command tabbing and that's probably the thing I
01:03:04 ◼ ► do most in the Mac is command tab. And there's not any, or in the iPhone, you're doing the bottom up
01:03:10 ◼ ► gesture to switch between apps, doing that constantly. So there's not a good gesture yet
01:03:16 ◼ ► for doing that, for doing app switching like that. Apparently it's coming in the next, or it's in the
01:03:21 ◼ ► next, the beta of the next OS update, but to just automatically bring the app that you've just
01:03:28 ◼ ► selected back into the foreground, that's a pretty important thing to do in terms of app switching.
01:03:33 ◼ ► The thing that changes the game for me, and I think it's almost like important for anybody to
01:03:38 ◼ ► know this who's thinking about using a vision pro is like getting a, like a small magic keyboard
01:03:44 ◼ ► is a game changer, especially for Safari. I find like for closing tabs, for opening new ones, for
01:03:50 ◼ ► going directly to the URL bar is just going to be at least three times faster to do all that stuff
01:03:57 ◼ ► than doing it with your eyes and your fingertips. Right. And as big and bulky as this headset is in
01:04:13 ◼ ► meta quest and I kind of know that just like to fit all of it in there, it's gotta be that big
01:04:19 ◼ ► for the configuration. It is very nice though, right? Yeah. It's super nice, such high quality.
01:04:25 ◼ ► And feels sort of futuristic. I mean, and again, I haven't taken it out of the house yet,
01:04:35 ◼ ► seemingly means it's going to get scuffed up and dirty by sticking it underneath airplane seats.
01:04:45 ◼ ► Maybe. I don't know. It kind of, I always joke. Do you ever see that picture of the Pope? It was
01:05:01 ◼ ► But it looks like it's made out of what I imagine that imaginary white puffy coat fabric to be made
01:05:08 ◼ ► out of. Yeah. It's so NASA. It's super spacey. Yeah. NASA, right. It seems astronaut-y as we're
01:05:14 ◼ ► talking here on the surface of the moon. Yeah. I love it. And I came back out into my room
01:05:18 ◼ ► because I didn't, I was getting bored of the moon. Like I'm a real world man. But I do wish that the
01:05:29 ◼ ► Bluetooth, like HTPC thumb keyboards, but it just wasn't, wasn't doing it for me. You really,
01:05:39 ◼ ► But a small, like I feel the magic keyboard is tiny in size. It's lightweight and it's got a
01:05:47 ◼ ► full configuration of the keyboard layout and you can hide windows and close tabs and type way,
01:05:56 ◼ ► way, way easier than with the virtual keyboard. You know, I love my mechanical keyboards and it's
01:06:02 ◼ ► funny cause I have an old key cron one. I don't want to spend time bitching about it, but I,
01:06:06 ◼ ► I spent a surprisingly it's Bluetooth, which is why most mechanical keyboards require a wire.
01:06:13 ◼ ► But I guess the they're sort of catching up to the world where most of them, or at least most
01:06:19 ◼ ► of the newer ones have Bluetooth too. But this key cron K2 that I've had for, I don't know,
01:06:24 ◼ ► five or six years now, maybe longer is the only Bluetooth mechanical that I have in the house.
01:06:29 ◼ ► Jonas took a bunch of my other ones with him to college, but I couldn't get it to pair with this,
01:06:35 ◼ ► even though like I've paired the magic keyboard and I'm 98% sure the problem is I eventually did
01:06:42 ◼ ► enough research that the key cron I have only supports Bluetooth 3.1 and Bluetooth now is up
01:06:50 ◼ ► to like five point something or maybe even six. And I think that's what it is. I think vision OS
01:06:55 ◼ ► doesn't support Bluetooth older than some cutoff and this keyboard, even though it works with all
01:07:01 ◼ ► my phones and iPads and max, whatever, but as much as I'm a fan of mechanical keyboards,
01:07:13 ◼ ► almost insane light weight is like, it's like you can't imagine Apple's. I never, and I never
01:07:20 ◼ ► really thought about it before, but you almost wouldn't want it to be any lighter weight,
01:07:25 ◼ ► right? It would almost, it would be like you could blow on it. It would blow around like a sheet of
01:07:30 ◼ ► paper. Right. I just want to be like, I throw it in my tote bag cause I bring it around with me
01:07:35 ◼ ► in the Mac, but I, I would love an all in one, but you know, it's just like, I didn't appreciate how
01:07:42 ◼ ► crucial an accessory it's it was going to be for the vision pro because the virtual keyboard as
01:07:49 ◼ ► great as it is for when you don't, when you don't have anything else and maybe when you don't want to,
01:07:56 ◼ ► you don't want to dictate it, you know, virtual keyboard, you can figure it out. You can pack
01:08:01 ◼ ► hunt and pack. You can look at keys and tap is way slower and that's fine. Like how else are they
01:08:08 ◼ ► going to solve for that? I would hope that people don't think, Oh, I can't use the physical keyboard
01:08:14 ◼ ► cause it's a step back. It's not native to this tech. I absolutely think it is just like, it's
01:08:19 ◼ ► a keyboard is important for a Mac. Yeah. I almost feel like it's, it's not worth worrying about. I
01:08:25 ◼ ► mean, I, if they have some theoretical panzerino and I, in the last episode of the show, we're
01:08:29 ◼ ► talking about the, the way everybody imagined virtual keyboard to work would be to project
01:08:34 ◼ ► one onto a tabletop in front of you or do it, you could set up a tray, the, the food tray on your
01:08:41 ◼ ► airplane and tell the device project a virtual keyboard in front of you. And then you could just
01:08:48 ◼ ► type on that. You know, that's an obvious idea, right? I mean, it's been in science fiction movies,
01:08:55 ◼ ► everybody can, you know, so maybe Apple's been working on it. Maybe there's somebody's there
01:09:15 ◼ ► But I think getting caught up on the fact that you can't natively type. Well, I don't think,
01:09:23 ◼ ► you know, somebody will have a typing contest with this thing eventually. And some kid is going to
01:09:27 ◼ ► type in an astonishing rate just by staring. Yeah, I saw one. There was, there was a typing
01:09:32 ◼ ► contest on already on Twitter. Yeah. And somebody, somebody was prodigious. Yeah. Yeah. I, one of my
01:09:44 ◼ ► favorite things to do with the vision pro is just use my Mac in it. And there's a keyboard there
01:09:48 ◼ ► right in front of me. And there's plenty of solutions to that problem. I guess where I'm
01:09:54 ◼ ► going though, is it most people need a physical keyboard to really do actual writing work with
01:10:00 ◼ ► this thing. That's not worth worrying about that much more than the fact that we need actual
01:10:04 ◼ ► speakers on the headset to hear each other and that there need to be two 4k displays in the
01:10:10 ◼ ► headset in front of our eyes for us to see the world around us. The keyboard is just a part of
01:10:15 ◼ ► the physical nature of the device. Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's I do find this is,
01:10:22 ◼ ► this is one of my nits with the current version of the OS is that that virtual keyboard is always
01:10:29 ◼ ► popping up in your face, reminding yourself that it's there. Like even if you have a physical
01:10:35 ◼ ► keyboard attached, it should, I wish that it was a little bit more intuitive about knowing that
01:10:40 ◼ ► because anytime there's a text field, the virtual keyboard is right there blocking my view.
01:10:45 ◼ ► Yeah. And I don't know why sometimes I don't even know why. Sometimes I do know why I'll be like,
01:10:51 ◼ ► Oh, I was looking at the, or like in the messages, right? There's the little text box at the bottom
01:10:58 ◼ ► of the window where you've put the input focus when you want to type a message to somebody in
01:11:04 ◼ ► messages and you're like, Oh, I just wanted to move the window around, but I looked up a little
01:11:09 ◼ ► too much and I saw the text field highlight and then I tapped my fingers and now I'm stuck with
01:11:14 ◼ ► this keyboard. I don't want, but then there's other times where the keyboard pops up and I
01:11:18 ◼ ► don't even know why I don't, I can't even imagine what it was I was looking at that made it look up.
01:11:23 ◼ ► Yeah. And also, I mean, it's very intrusive, but also I can't figure out what the purpose of the
01:11:28 ◼ ► text preview is in the, in the virtual keyboard. Oh, why would I need that? Because what I'm
01:11:34 ◼ ► typing is going into the field that I'm typing in. So I think that's about people who need to
01:11:41 ◼ ► look at the keys on the physical keyboard, but that's the, there's a similar pop-up above the
01:11:48 ◼ ► physical keyboard. Like it shows up above your MacBook keyboard. If you pair your MacBook with
01:12:05 ◼ ► Fair enough. That's as good as, that's as good as any answer. And that's good enough for me.
01:12:09 ◼ ► This is where I'm, you probably don't remember such devices, but like when Amy and I were in
01:12:16 ◼ ► high school, you know, I didn't have a computer at home. I had a word processor. And the word processor
01:12:22 ◼ ► was really a glorified typewriter and mine only had like a one line LED display. So in other words,
01:12:31 ◼ ► the current line that I was typing, I could see, you know, like almost like a calculator, black and
01:12:39 ◼ ► white, very super fat pixel display. And then when I hit return, that line would get flushed from
01:12:47 ◼ ► memory and clickety-clack, clack, clack, clack, typed onto the piece of paper and the word processor
01:12:53 ◼ ► and then move on to the next one. And I remember Amy in high school had a word processor with a
01:12:58 ◼ ► five line display and it could save like a whole file at once in, on an actual floppy disc, like
01:13:05 ◼ ► an award perfect document. So she could take it to like a PC and read it. But that's what it reminds
01:13:11 ◼ ► me of, that you get like this sort of one line buffer of text right above the keyboard before
01:13:18 ◼ ► you actually send it. But it does, it seems so anachronistic, right? It's like, I'm throwing back
01:13:25 ◼ ► to like a word processor my parents got me like in 1989 for my sophomore year of high school for the
01:13:32 ◼ ► sort of, you see one line of text before you actually commit it for lack of a better verb.
01:13:38 ◼ ► - Yeah, I think all it took was you using the word support for the people who need that style
01:13:44 ◼ ► of typing and I was sold. What do you think about just for the last kind of topic, why don't we go
01:13:52 ◼ ► down the list of all the other Mac products and figure out how it ties together or Apple products?
01:13:58 ◼ ► 'Cause that's kind of like the big thesis that I was kind of coming to is that all of them come
01:14:04 ◼ ► together. Every device in the ecosystem is sort of connected to this one in an interesting way.
01:14:09 ◼ ► - Before we do that, I have two grab bag topics before we get there. I think that's a good final
01:14:16 ◼ ► topic. Number one, do you find it surprisingly hard to drink any kind of beverage while you use
01:14:22 ◼ ► this product? - Yeah, totally. I think, yeah, coffee cups, coffee mugs are hard as Joe Aniston
01:14:28 ◼ ► noted that a wine glass is hard. So yeah, it seems like you're drinking water out of maybe
01:14:43 ◼ ► you know Mike Davidson. He got it and it was like, how come you didn't tell me I should have bought
01:14:47 ◼ ► bottled beer before getting it? - Yeah, or a CamelBak or like lots of cray straws for your jumbo,
01:14:56 ◼ ► your big gulps. I think that's what we're gonna need in the future. - But there's a real physical
01:14:59 ◼ ► problem with the way that the headset comes forward from your face that I guess the other guy,
01:15:06 ◼ ► everybody, I don't know, did you have an uncle like this? Everybody I knew had an uncle who would
01:15:10 ◼ ► at some point in your childhood take you aside like at a family holiday gathering and say,
01:15:16 ◼ ► "Hey, I don't know, I'm not telling your parents how to raise you or anything, but you know,
01:15:27 ◼ ► And I was like, "Oh, I didn't know." I thought it was like elbows on the table or whatever.
01:15:31 ◼ ► And then I would try to drink without putting my nose in the glass. - That's such a good uncle guy.
01:15:38 ◼ ► - Yeah, and it was my uncle, my mom's uncle actually did, he was more like a great uncle or
01:15:44 ◼ ► whatever you call like the uncle equivalent of a cousin, Stosh, good Ukrainian name. And then it
01:15:50 ◼ ► took me like three or four tries and then realized, and then I look over at him at the table and he's
01:15:56 ◼ ► laughing at me and I'm like, "Geez," you know. But there is something to that, like the way that your
01:16:02 ◼ ► nose does go into a glass inevitably as you drink from it that is impossible while you wear this
01:16:08 ◼ ► device out in front of your face. - Yeah, the thing really protrudes and like it's, I don't
01:16:14 ◼ ► know, I've caught myself bumping it up against things, not knowing that I was too like that
01:16:19 ◼ ► close. And it's, which the only reason I care about that is 'cause the thing scratches easily
01:16:24 ◼ ► and I don't want scuffs all over my dang computer. - Yeah, the other grab bag topic was the fact that
01:16:33 ◼ ► there is a bit of light leak around your nose all the time. And to me, again, this is another little
01:16:45 ◼ ► at the store who had no idea who I was just giving me the thing and he's like, "How's that fit?" And
01:16:50 ◼ ► I was like, "Yeah, I feel it's good." And he's like, "Do you see any light around the sides?" I'm like,
01:16:54 ◼ ► "Nope." And he goes, "I'll bet you." But he goes, "You do see a little light around your nose?"
01:16:58 ◼ ► And I said, "Yes." And I've been thinking about this with my review unit for like 10 days
01:17:02 ◼ ► beforehand. And he goes, "That's totally normal. That's actually by design. It's sort of an
01:17:07 ◼ ► anti-nausea thing. It keeps you a little bit oriented. And it also is an anti-fog thing
01:17:14 ◼ ► that there's some kind of air gap so that the inside of this thing doesn't get hot and sweaty
01:17:19 ◼ ► and foggy. And nobody—all the times I had all those demos in the media and Apple—with every
01:17:27 ◼ ► product, Apple PR wants to present the product to reviewers in an optimal way and let you know
01:17:33 ◼ ► everything you should expect. Nobody ever told me that. I thought it was like my weird big nose,
01:17:38 ◼ ► maybe, or something. Everybody I know. And then I've gotten so many texts from friends who got
01:17:44 ◼ ► theirs afterwards and they're like, "Do I have a bad light seal? I see light around my nose."
01:17:49 ◼ ► Over and over and over again. I don't know. And it feels like a total drop ball on Apple's part
01:17:56 ◼ ► that they didn't emphasize clearly enough. And if they did, then I just completely missed it.
01:18:01 ◼ ► That at least around your nose, there's supposed to be a little light leak. And I completely forget
01:18:09 ◼ ► about it about 45 seconds into putting it on every single time. Every single time I'm like, "Oh,
01:18:15 ◼ ► I see that little light leak around my nose." And within a minute, I don't notice it. I haven't
01:18:20 ◼ ► thought about it, talking to you here, until I've just looked at my notes where I was like,
01:18:25 ◼ ► "What was the other thing I wanted to make sure I brought up?" And it was the light leak around
01:18:28 ◼ ► the nose. Yeah, I never think about it either, mostly because I come from the meta quest. I've
01:18:34 ◼ ► had the VR headsets back going to the Oculus DK1. And this one, the light leak around this device
01:18:43 ◼ ► is so much better than any of the others. So I don't know, in the meta quest, you actually
01:18:50 ◼ ► consider it a feature because a lot of times, because there's no interoperability of the devices,
01:18:55 ◼ ► you're not getting notifications in the meta quest. So a lot of times you just need to look
01:18:59 ◼ ► down at your phone and you do it by tilting up your head and you glance through the hole in your
01:19:05 ◼ ► hole above your nose. So I can see that being a feature. I can see it also being very hard
01:19:10 ◼ ► to message that for Apple, because it sounds like it's bullshit. It sounds like they're taking a bug
01:19:16 ◼ ► and calling it a feature. That's exactly what I think. I think that they probably, there's somebody
01:19:21 ◼ ► at Apple who's listening to this podcast and they're like, "Yes, we had 27 different meetings
01:19:27 ◼ ► about whether we should mention the light leak around the nose or not." And that there were
01:19:31 ◼ ► people on both sides and eventually somebody was like, "No, let's just not talk about it because
01:19:38 ◼ ► Yeah. What else? Oh, I know. The other thing is, I do want to get to your ecosystem question,
01:19:45 ◼ ► because I do think that's a good final one. But there's another thing that I kind of feel,
01:19:50 ◼ ► like where, I'm going to go there. Where do you think this introduction would have been different
01:20:06 ◼ ► I do too. I think they would still be doing on-stage demos. I don't know what they would
01:20:14 ◼ ► have done during COVID. And then I think he would have insisted they go back to the old way, or
01:20:27 ◼ ► Yeah, that's the way that Steve always was. He was so iconic for his ability to model an experience
01:20:33 ◼ ► for the people that were supposed to understand it. And I don't think that he would have had a
01:20:39 ◼ ► second thought about putting the thing on in front of an audience and then showing his persona off,
01:20:44 ◼ ► even if it had limitations. He would have proudly shown that off. And because he's Steve with the
01:20:50 ◼ ► reality distortion field, everybody would have lapped it up. He's got an iconic presence,
01:20:56 ◼ ► so it would have translated to the persona. Who knows whether they would still be doing,
01:20:59 ◼ ► if Steve was around, if they'd be doing that more very intricately crafted style of video
01:21:06 ◼ ► presentation that they do now. I think a lot of that is just because Tim probably isn't the
01:21:11 ◼ ► showman and demonstrational presenter that Steve was, and they know that, like know thyself.
01:21:19 ◼ ► So instead, what Tim is able to bring together is this incredible operation where he sets up a story
01:21:28 ◼ ► that takes you on a journey from person to person. The whole product experience takes you from space
01:21:37 ◼ ► to space and flies it around like it's the future, like cameras are weightless. And I think that that
01:21:43 ◼ ► is Tim's deal, but if Steve had demoed this thing, it would have seemed that much more miraculous
01:21:52 ◼ ► Pete: And until the Vanity Fair cover story dropped, there was this repeated, endlessly
01:22:01 ◼ ► since June, notion from the people who either deliberately just to be contrarians or whether
01:22:12 ◼ ► they just honestly felt, I think this product is not a good idea, that they just kept saying over
01:22:18 ◼ ► and over again that we haven't seen, there's a reason why we haven't seen any Apple executives
01:22:23 ◼ ► wearing this thing. You look ridiculous. They know you look ridiculous. So they're not even
01:22:27 ◼ ► letting themselves be photographed. And I've mentioned this, I think I'd mentioned it with
01:22:32 ◼ ► Panzarino last week, but it still frustrates me because if you really think about the dynamics of
01:22:37 ◼ ► how they unveiled it and how they hold events now, there's no context where that would have made any
01:22:42 ◼ ► sense because they don't do live on stage demos. And when Tim Cook went to the hands-on area
01:22:49 ◼ ► afterwards and was photographed in front of one, they weren't letting anybody try those. Those were
01:22:55 ◼ ► just sort of hardware so you could see the hardware and look at the band or whatever else,
01:23:00 ◼ ► but it's not the sort of product where it makes sense. Like you could go out after you deliver
01:23:06 ◼ ► the big keynote for the new iPhone and you go out to the hands-on area and there's hundreds and
01:23:11 ◼ ► hundreds of media and photographers. It's a scrum for lack of a better word. And they can make room
01:23:19 ◼ ► for Tim to come up and approach it and poke his finger at the new phone and touch one of the
01:23:25 ◼ ► buttons or something. But with this device, that doesn't make any sense. You don't just touch it
01:23:29 ◼ ► briefly or point at it or something. You have to, there's no context for it. Only a live demo would
01:23:36 ◼ ► have been a reason why you would have seen Apple, someone from an Apple executive doing it. And I
01:23:40 ◼ ► think Steve Jobs definitely would have. I do. And I'm not saying that that means that they should
01:23:46 ◼ ► still be doing it. I just think when you've got the greatest live demo guy of all time,
01:23:53 ◼ ► you're going to keep using him. Well, there was an earthquake just now in LA. It's still going on.
01:23:58 ◼ ► You should have up to the cliche or anything, but we're shaking. Okay, it's over. That was Steve
01:24:04 ◼ ► just sending a message. He agrees with us. He agrees with us. All right, here's a specific
01:24:09 ◼ ► thing that I think Steve Jobs would have presented very differently from Apple now. I think Apple
01:24:23 ◼ ► before it shipped where she pointed out that in all of the photos they took of us in the media
01:24:30 ◼ ► who got hands-on demos two weeks, three weeks ago, that the Apple photographer who took those
01:24:36 ◼ ► pictures for almost all of us strategically took it from the other side or the cable was
01:24:50 ◼ ► We were usually pictured from like mid chest up while the battery pack is on the ground.
01:25:03 ◼ ► "This battery pack," and let me show you how are we powering this incredible computer. Well,
01:25:08 ◼ ► we're powering it with the best battery anybody has ever made. Look at it. It is beautiful.
01:25:22 ◼ ► It's called battery, right? You would have failed it up and everybody would have lost their shit and
01:25:28 ◼ ► applauded, right? Right. And every one of our competitors is trying to stick their battery on
01:25:34 ◼ ► the strap or they're trying to stick it on front of your face and it gets hot and it's stupid and
01:25:40 ◼ ► we've made it over here and we have this great new cable that'll connect to it. And this device
01:25:46 ◼ ► is such a supercomputer that it needs a big battery and the best place to put a big battery
01:25:50 ◼ ► is right here in your pocket. Yeah, exactly. Perfect messaging. Yeah, maybe there's not
01:25:56 ◼ ► that style of messaging anymore. There's not really that style. I find that Apple doesn't
01:26:02 ◼ ► do that style of messaging of like, "The world's best. We cracked it and nobody else could."
01:26:19 ◼ ► rather than make big claims, but Steve's whole vibe was making the big claim because he could
01:26:25 ◼ ► back it up. And sort of knowing when he was bragging about the thing that really was worth
01:26:32 ◼ ► bragging about. For example, like the iPhone 4 being the first consumer level device with a
01:26:37 ◼ ► retina display. That and like you said, not only made the pixels half the size and made them so
01:26:49 ◼ ► the pixels even closer to the surface of the glass, which seems like would be less of a big
01:26:56 ◼ ► deal, but was almost as big a deal to making the iPhone seem more futuristic. Well, that was truly
01:27:02 ◼ ► next generation stuff. But like when the first iPhone came out and only had 2G edge networking
01:27:08 ◼ ► and it was super slow, he didn't make apologies for it. He was like, "This is amazing. Look at
01:27:12 ◼ ► this. You're on a cellular networking. You're loading the new yorktimes.com." And yeah, he did
01:27:17 ◼ ► it live on stage and it really was slow because he really did do the demo and it really did come in
01:27:22 ◼ ► over edge and it took a long time for it to load. But he just, you know, it was an internet
01:27:29 ◼ ► communicator all in one device. There's a great line in the great rule writing handbooks, the
01:27:36 ◼ ► Strunk and White. And the white and Strunk and White is E.B. White, who's the author of Charlotte's
01:27:42 ◼ ► Web, was a longtime staff writer at the New Yorker. And Strunk, I forget his first name, but he was
01:27:47 ◼ ► White's college writing professor at Cornell or wherever the hell he went to school. And
01:27:53 ◼ ► it's a funny book. It's worth, as a writer, I think, rereading every couple of years because
01:28:00 ◼ ► it's like, "Ah, that's good advice. I always forget about that. I should do that, blah, blah, blah."
01:28:04 ◼ ► But it's not even writing advice, but Strunk has this line where if you're reading aloud and you
01:28:10 ◼ ► come across a word you don't know how to pronounce, say it loud. If you don't know how to pronounce it,
01:28:17 ◼ ► say it loud. He repeats it. Trust me, I know what it's like to not know how to pronounce words.
01:28:23 ◼ ► John: I'm the king. And so, that advice really struck with me where it's like, I'm also,
01:28:29 ◼ ► I'm surprisingly self-conscious about the fact that I, there's dozens and dozens of words still
01:28:36 ◼ ► in my vocabulary that I encountered as a young reader made my best guess as to how they were
01:28:48 ◼ ► John; But the idea that you just, "Ah, go with it. Say it loud. Say that word that you don't
01:28:52 ◼ ► know how to pronounce even louder than the other words." That's like what Jobs would have done with
01:28:56 ◼ ► the battery. Yeah, the battery does suck that it's outside and it's heavy and it gets warm and it's
01:29:00 ◼ ► attached to a cable that you forget is always attached to you and if you just stand up and
01:29:12 ◼ ► Pete; Well, I think one of his methods of storytelling was always to include the audience
01:29:17 ◼ ► in the journey and in the problem that was being solved in a way that they don't really
01:29:21 ◼ ► necessarily do anymore. He always wanted to say, "Listen, gang, it's really hard to do this shit
01:29:28 ◼ ► and these are all the things that we're coming up against and this is how we solved it and I want
01:29:33 ◼ ► you to be as excited as I am right now." And it was always genuine. That's what he got a thrill out of.
01:29:44 ◼ ► Pete; Ecosystem. So yeah, like, just making sense of this thing and defining it in my first week of
01:29:49 ◼ ► using it, it's like, "What the hell is it?" And I found just kind of like drawing connections to
01:30:02 ◼ ► in context of how we would define all the other stuff. Because I do really think that that is
01:30:08 ◼ ► this, that is kind of a, like, that is a startling innovation of this device that only Apple could do
01:30:16 ◼ ► because they have built this ecosystem, right? That's where they win is because that's how they
01:30:20 ◼ ► make this thing the most useful is that they tie it all together. So like the Mac, for instance,
01:30:27 ◼ ► it's like, I brought it up before, it's a multi-window workstation. You bring multiple apps
01:30:33 ◼ ► together, you can sort of like look at them and work with them simultaneously to do a lot of stuff
01:30:38 ◼ ► at once and it's all in this pretty well controlled experience within a rectangle of a screen.
01:30:44 ◼ ► And I think that there's a lot of similarities with the Mac in the Vision OS in that sense. It's
01:31:02 ◼ ► use it to get a lot of stuff done or just experience a lot of stuff, whether it's consumption
01:31:07 ◼ ► or creation. That's kind of like one of the things that strongly defines it, including the fact that
01:31:15 ◼ ► you can actually bring your Mac into the space and work with an actual Mac while you're doing it.
01:31:21 ◼ ► I think it's even more than that though. On the one hand, one of the surprising aspects of the,
01:31:29 ◼ ► going back to our home view discussion, is how many of Apple's own apps still aren't native to
01:31:35 ◼ ► Vision OS, right? Like Calendar is still actually just the iPad app. The only native Calendar app is
01:31:40 ◼ ► from our friends at Fantastic Al right now. Hold on, let me actually bring it up and look in that
01:31:46 ◼ ► folder. Calendar, the Books app, Maps is still an iPad app. But you look at the ones on the
01:31:54 ◼ ► home screen, the first home screen that you don't get to adjust, and you kind of get a sense of what
01:31:59 ◼ ► Apple sees as the key apps of the whole, not of the device, but of the ecosystem, right? Apple TV,
01:32:07 ◼ ► Apple Music, Settings, App Store, Notes, Photos, Safari, Freeform, which I do think sticks out
01:32:15 ◼ ► as something that most people don't think of as one of the most used Apple apps, right?
01:32:21 ◼ ► But I think it sort of speaks to, that's the one that sort of gets elevated as maybe being
01:32:32 ◼ ► Mail, Messages, and then Keynote. And like I've joked before, all three of the iWork apps
01:32:42 ◼ ► Yeah, I agree. And then that demo of the rehearsal environment for Keynote is a showstopper.
01:32:49 ◼ ► But I think you're right, Freeform is a great one. It's aspirational and it invites you to
01:32:55 ◼ ► participate. But I think front and center, like Photos is right in there in the middle because
01:33:02 ◼ ► In that list, and so there's, mindfulness is on that screen. I don't use the mindfulness stuff.
01:33:12 ◼ ► Yeah, so there's a couple of exceptions there that I wouldn't say as cornerstones of the ecosystem,
01:33:18 ◼ ► but the ones that are the corners of the Apple ecosystem, Safari, not necessarily in this order,
01:33:25 ◼ ► I don't know. But it's almost impossible to prioritize them. Photos, Mail, Messages, Notes,
01:33:32 ◼ ► Safari, they're all there. My bookmarks are all there. My history syncs across them with iCloud.
01:33:40 ◼ ► So like if I'm looking for Casey Neistat's video going around New York while wearing it,
01:33:47 ◼ ► I was just looking at it on an iPad, but I want to see it on this because I want to make it big.
01:33:52 ◼ ► Well, as soon as I start typing YouTube, my history fills in and it's like the second one there.
01:33:56 ◼ ► Oh, it's already right there. All the notes that I took while using this connected to a keyboard,
01:34:01 ◼ ► and I'm sure you've got like a whole pile of Apple Notes piled up with your observations of this.
01:34:07 ◼ ► The fact that they're all there and then when you're grocery shopping 15 miles from home
01:34:25 ◼ ► And then the next time you're using Vision Pro, you're like, "What was that thing I wrote to
01:34:29 ◼ ► myself at the grocery store?" It's right there. It almost sounds superficial because these are like
01:34:36 ◼ ► the most, we think of them as basic apps. Well, you have to have a Notes app. You have to have
01:34:41 ◼ ► a web browser. You have to have an email app. But the way that Apple has made these apps feel
01:34:56 ◼ ► incredible leg up over, I mean, who's their closest competitor? I think most people would
01:35:01 ◼ ► agree it's probably Meta. The Oculus hardware division has been very well regarded for years
01:35:18 ◼ ► and make them better year over year and Apple's coming from a, "Okay, let's start with our minimum
01:35:24 ◼ ► viable awesome product. Oh, it's going to cost $4,000. Well, we'll make it cheaper as time goes
01:35:29 ◼ ► on year over year." I think that's an interesting strategic difference, right? That Meta is, and
01:35:36 ◼ ► Meta also has the Ray-Ban glasses. And you've worn, what was the product that you had that
01:35:51 ◼ ► it was, and really, it's not like, "Holy, holy friggin' shit," like this. But it is like,
01:35:58 ◼ ► "Oh, wow, that's cool. I could see now what you're talking about." Once you let me try those on,
01:36:03 ◼ ► everything you had said good about them made a lot more sense to me than I believed beforehand.
01:36:12 ◼ ► Yeah, they're single function, just like, MetaQuest is essentially single function as well. It's a
01:36:17 ◼ ► gaming device and, yeah. But we're... So, I think that strategic, complete opposite approach, do we
01:36:26 ◼ ► start with $500 devices and grind it out year over year to make those $500 devices better, or do we
01:36:34 ◼ ► start with a $4,000 device and try to bring it down to a reasonable price? Let's see how it goes.
01:36:42 ◼ ► Kind of feel like Apple has more experience with hardware platforms, and so not just my personal
01:36:49 ◼ ► fandom of Apple's products, I just kind of feel like you're betting on a proven winner if you
01:36:55 ◼ ► think Apple's strategy is better. But where I feel like people aren't even talking about it is that
01:37:00 ◼ ► Meta doesn't have any kind of ecosystem like this of their own web browser, their own notes app,
01:37:08 ◼ ► their own email. How do you get your email on this thing? How do you get your email accounts into it?
01:37:13 ◼ ► Yeah. No, they're not thinking of that at all. Even their own user account system in their own
01:37:19 ◼ ► gaming device ecosystem is pretty broken, as is Microsoft's. Google's is probably the furthest
01:37:26 ◼ ► along in terms of tying your user account into different spaces, not necessarily different
01:37:32 ◼ ► hardware, but it transports from platform to platform, from site to site. There's something
01:37:40 ◼ ► that Google knows about you as a person that is very transportable, but Meta doesn't have that.
01:37:49 ◼ ► Yeah, Google is definitely the closest, but it's hard for me to... And again, maybe it's my bias
01:37:56 ◼ ► because I don't like Google's style of such things. I just don't. I don't like Google Keep as a notes
01:38:04 ◼ ► app. It doesn't fit with my brain. And Apple Notes isn't my very ideal of a notes app. I tried making
01:38:12 ◼ ► my ideal of a notes app 10 years ago with Vesper. I mean, I have strong opinions on notes apps, but
01:38:16 ◼ ► notes is a lot closer to the way I think a notes app should work than Google Keep is. I personally
01:38:25 ◼ ► don't like Google Chrome as much. And putting aside the rendering engines, I just don't like
01:38:29 ◼ ► the interface to it as much as Safari. And the further you get into the ecosystem, the more...
01:38:36 ◼ ► Like people who use the actual Gmail interface, when you type gmail.com into a desktop browser,
01:38:43 ◼ ► it doesn't look anything to me like the Gmail that you get on your phone when you open the Gmail app.
01:38:49 ◼ ► It looks like two totally different interfaces to it. Whereas Apple's mail looks like it's not
01:38:56 ◼ ► the Mac version shrunk to the iPhone, but it looks like a sibling product from the same designers
01:39:02 ◼ ► and that they, "Oh yes, this is what the phone version of this desktop email app would look like."
01:39:14 ◼ ► products in the different platforms. And Apple Music and Apple TV. There's a reason why on the
01:39:22 ◼ ► home screen, the very top left position is the TV app. Oh, absolutely. Going back to the home screen,
01:39:28 ◼ ► something... I came across this the first time I was trying to add a contact in the Vision Pro,
01:39:36 ◼ ► and there is no contacts app. Right. If you look over to the left of the home screen, you've got
01:39:41 ◼ ► that little drawer that slides out and it's apps, people, and environments, which is essentially
01:39:53 ◼ ► People, they just want... If you tap on that, you open up people and you just get a list of
01:40:00 ◼ ► people that you commonly communicate with, which is bizarre, but it's an interesting way of thinking
01:40:06 ◼ ► about it. This morning, my friend texted me a VCF, like a contact, like you can do, share a contact.
01:40:14 ◼ ► I opened in the Vision Pro and I tried to do anything with it. It wanted to save it as a file
01:40:21 ◼ ► in my files app. And then so I saved it as a file. And then when I went to open that file,
01:40:26 ◼ ► it was just like, "Congratulations, you have a .vcf file. I can't do anything with this."
01:40:32 ◼ ► So it's just like that people space in your home view tells you a lot about what VisionOS
01:40:43 ◼ ► prioritizes, I think. Do you think though that there's a chance that... Because this is where
01:40:49 ◼ ► you and I together sort of got the Apple Watch wrong, right? You and I both bought into when
01:40:57 ◼ ► it was debuted the communication features, the, "Oh, if you've got a sweetheart and you both have
01:41:03 ◼ ► an Apple Watch, you can share your pulse with your sweetheart as a sort of a remote gesture
01:41:11 ◼ ► of affection." Right. I remember, I think, walking down the street in San Jose, like just
01:41:17 ◼ ► dreaming big dreams about how that shared heartbeat was going to be the killer for the watch.
01:41:23 ◼ ► And it's funny now so many years later, and I don't even know if the feature's there anymore.
01:41:31 ◼ ► I'm happy to just say, "Well, I was wrong." But I think Apple was wrong, and I think it sort of
01:41:43 ◼ ► on Apple's part, and I don't think it was foolish that we thought, "Hey, maybe there's something
01:41:48 ◼ ► there there." Right? Yeah. I mean, they were just trying to forge human connection into the
01:41:53 ◼ ► product, which is, that's great. But I wonder if it's that same desire to forge human connection
01:41:58 ◼ ► into the product that has made them make people as top level of a thing as apps and environments.
01:42:11 ◼ ► they've got it, this time it's right that it is personal and it's worth having people there
01:42:16 ◼ ► so that you, that's how you start a FaceTime call. There is no FaceTime app either. You go to people,
01:42:22 ◼ ► find the person, and then it says, "Well, what do you want to do with Adam? You want to start
01:42:26 ◼ ► a FaceTime call?" "Yeah, I want to start a FaceTime call." "Okay, start a FaceTime call."
01:42:33 ◼ ► Which essentially tells you that that's how Apple ties it into the iPhone, is that that part of the
01:42:39 ◼ ► product they're calling a communicator, right? Right. So, yeah, there's, so you can message
01:42:45 ◼ ► a person, FaceTime them, and then there's a dot, dot, dot where you can do more. You can email them,
01:42:50 ◼ ► get info, pin them. Right. That's Apple basically saying the vision is your OS for the people in
01:42:58 ◼ ► your life. Right. It's how you make those outward connections. And so that's kind of cool. I mean,
01:43:09 ◼ ► this thing, at the same time as they're using it as like a Mac for multi-window, multi-APIC
01:43:16 ◼ ► workstation, they're going to be using it as a communications device, which I'm fully on board
01:43:21 ◼ ► with. We've been doing it for two hours now, and it feels as natural as anything. Yeah, it does.
01:43:27 ◼ ► I guess it's good that the Newton exists in the sense that it, I think it's still, I think there's
01:43:36 ◼ ► very few people, just because it was so long ago, that there's very few people at Apple left who
01:43:41 ◼ ► were there for the Newton, but it's a humbling platform because, you know, there's no other way
01:43:48 ◼ ► to describe it than as a failed platform. It was around for a couple of years. And I know that the
01:43:52 ◼ ► people who were the staunchest aficionados of the Newton platform are, I'm sure some of them listen
01:43:59 ◼ ► to my podcast, and I'm sure they're angry right now. And they still blame Steve Jobs that it wasn't
01:44:04 ◼ ► that the Newton failed. It was that, you know, when they had to cut costs to save the company
01:44:09 ◼ ► from bankruptcy, they cut it when Jobs came back, and maybe he was biased against it because it
01:44:19 ◼ ► and the Newton had a lot of good things going for it. But where I'm going is, is this possible that
01:44:26 ◼ ► this vision headset will be the next Newton for the Apple? Fuck no. Like, I don't think that,
01:44:32 ◼ ► I think that's the wrong statement to make about this thing. You shared that Beeple tweet.
01:44:40 ◼ ► Because the Newton was so far ahead of its time. It was so constrained by the available tech at
01:44:46 ◼ ► the time that it could never have delivered on the promises of the product, right? This thing is not
01:44:52 ◼ ► ahead of its time. It took until this time to make this product real. And to me, it's spectacularly
01:44:58 ◼ ► successful at it, even as hobbled as it may be in vision, in version one, this product is exactly
01:45:07 ◼ ► Yeah. I would say like the defining, what does it, what does that mean? What does it need to
01:45:13 ◼ ► be ready right now? It needs super high resolution displays and that's, it has these, right?
01:45:20 ◼ ► Everybody's impressed by the visual resolution. I think it needs really killer sound. I think even
01:45:28 ◼ ► like I said, like it's called vision pro everybody's most blown away by the visual experience,
01:45:32 ◼ ► but I think that the spatial audio either through the built-in speakers or with AirPods that do
01:45:38 ◼ ► spatial audio, it, the spatiality for lack of, I don't even know if that is a word, but you know,
01:45:45 ◼ ► it, it is important. I think that the stability of the placement of 3D objects where they stay
01:45:57 ◼ ► exactly in place, not like, Oh, if you leave a window in your kitchen and then you walk out of
01:46:04 ◼ ► the room and come back and it's, ah, it's like almost in the exact same space, but it's like two
01:46:09 ◼ ► inches. No, it is literally to the inch in the exact space where you left it. I think it needs
01:46:15 ◼ ► that. I think that's actually important to the experience that these things don't flicker. They
01:46:19 ◼ ► don't wobble a little bit in space. They are as a stable in three-dimensional space and it needs
01:46:27 ◼ ► pretty good input. You know, it needs good enough finger gesture recognition. They've got all of
01:46:34 ◼ ► that, right? That's the sort of baseline. I can't think of anything else that it really needs. I
01:46:38 ◼ ► mean, I guess you could say it needs a fast enough CPU or I guess that R1 chip is the sort of
01:46:45 ◼ ► breakthrough. The fact that it has this incredibly low latency from the cameras to the screens in
01:46:54 ◼ ► front of your eyes that reduces the nausea inducing latency of other headsets and makes it
01:47:01 ◼ ► more comfortable for some people just to even use for five minutes and then for other people just to
01:47:07 ◼ ► be able to use like for this, what are we on to two hours, 15 minutes of this call, something like
01:47:12 ◼ ► that. It needs all of that. And the Newton didn't have that, right? The Newton, I would, I've always
01:47:18 ◼ ► thought the big glaring thing in hindsight was that the Newton never should have come out before
01:47:23 ◼ ► wireless networking. If they waited for wi-fi, that would have been eight or nine years, seven
01:47:29 ◼ ► or eight years, something like that. They would have had to wait for a long time. But what was
01:47:34 ◼ ► the point in hindsight? I know I just said that I spent my freshman year in my college dorm using
01:47:39 ◼ ► a Macintosh computer without a network, but there was a lot that I actually, I felt like I was doing
01:47:45 ◼ ► stuff and making and creating stuff. Whereas the Newton wasn't really a creative device. You didn't
01:47:50 ◼ ► make artwork on it. You didn't- No, it was a PDA, but it had terrible handwriting recognition. So
01:47:56 ◼ ► the input sucked. And it was the butt of every joke. You know, the naysayers remark though would
01:48:04 ◼ ► be, well, didn't we just complain about the onscreen keyboard in this thing? Yeah, but that's,
01:48:09 ◼ ► the onscreen keyboard is one of four different input methods for communicating into the thing.
01:48:19 ◼ ► You couldn't just hit a microphone button and dictate to it to get around the handwriting
01:48:24 ◼ ► recognition. Yeah. And remember that the General Magic device had internet connectivity or, you
01:48:29 ◼ ► know, cellular connectivity too. So I don't know that that's necessarily what felled the Newton.
01:48:36 ◼ ► And I know Palm, and before Palm came out with the trios, right? That was what they called the
01:48:44 ◼ ► cell phone ones, which was, it did, it was a huge leg up for the Palm platform because then they had
01:48:51 ◼ ► some networking. But using this device and seeing a couple people, not even trying to troll or shit
01:48:58 ◼ ► posts, but just sort of tossing it out as a spitball, like it's just a mental exercise. Well,
01:49:03 ◼ ► debate the side that this might be the next Newton in Apple's history. And just think about it.
01:49:24 ◼ ► you could say it's too expensive, but at least if you've already bought it, and it's in your budget,
01:49:28 ◼ ► it's all there. The thing that this product has that the Newton didn't is this incredibly rich,
01:49:36 ◼ ► broad shared ecosystem with the other devices in your life. And at the time the Newton came out,
01:49:43 ◼ ► the only other product Apple had was the Mac. And you did technically, if you, you know,
01:49:50 ◼ ► there was a, what was it called? Like Newton Connection Kit or something like that. Did
01:49:53 ◼ ► you have a Newton? I didn't. It's not even worth Googling. I guess I'll make a note and put it in
01:49:59 ◼ ► the show notes. Well, I had a Palm, which is a close enough comparison. And there was like Palm
01:50:04 ◼ ► Sync, which was always a huge pain in the ass. But that's how they tried to leap over the,
01:50:16 ◼ ► So there was some kind of rudimentary way that you could get your contacts from your Mac into
01:50:22 ◼ ► the Newton, but the Mac didn't even have an address book at the time, right? That was from an era
01:50:28 ◼ ► on the Mac where Microsoft and Apple as the two big platform makers sort of demurred from
01:50:38 ◼ ► providing lots of first-party applications. You'd cut open the seal on your brand new PC or Mac,
01:51:01 ◼ ► I don't think so. I don't think in the classic era. I think that all came over from the next
01:51:05 ◼ ► year. I don't even think it had a game. It had the puzzle game. The 16 squares where you slide
01:51:11 ◼ ► the numbers around in a rudimentary text editor just for reading read me files and stuff like
01:51:17 ◼ ► that. So there wasn't any kind of way, even if you were a diehard Mac user and you're like, okay,
01:51:23 ◼ ► I'm all in and now I've spent all this money to buy a Newton communicator. Where's all my Mac stuff?
01:51:30 ◼ ► There were none of the apps were the same. There was no shared data infrastructure. So even
01:51:36 ◼ ► forgetting that it didn't have wireless networking, even with a cable, you weren't really sharing
01:51:40 ◼ ► a foundational layer of ecosystem apps like a note app, right? You just didn't have any of this.
01:51:48 ◼ ► Whereas all of this is already there on day one with vision and it's all this stuff. How
01:51:53 ◼ ► many notes here? I'm going to look at my notes. I have to turn my head. I have 1,851 notes in
01:52:00 ◼ ► Apple notes. Yeah. I use bear, but they're going back to like 2011 or something like that. Yeah.
01:52:06 ◼ ► So how many, you know, you've probably got like a thousand notes, thousands already on day one,
01:52:11 ◼ ► right? And they're just there. You just log in with your iCloud account, which you didn't even
01:52:16 ◼ ► have to do, right? I just brought your phone up to your thing. Oh, you're, this is your phone and
01:52:22 ◼ ► it's nearby. Okay. We'll just, we'll get your wifi password from your phone. We'll get your iCloud
01:52:28 ◼ ► account from your phone and this stuff will just start piling in. Yeah. And we know it's you because
01:52:34 ◼ ► of your Iris, which is equally crazy or whatever it is because of the, you know, your eyeball.
01:52:40 ◼ ► It's so easily overlooked because you just think, well, it's just a notes app. And of course the
01:52:46 ◼ ► notes app that the platform maker makes should sync across your various devices. And of course
01:52:51 ◼ ► your bookmarks and your browsing history should sync across devices. And if you get a new email
01:52:58 ◼ ► address, like you changed the sandwich.co instead of whatever, you know, sandwich video, you guys
01:53:04 ◼ ► change your domain at some point. Yeah. We're sandwich.co. Yeah. We are sandwich.co. And so
01:53:08 ◼ ► at some point in the last couple of years, I changed your email address and my contact,
01:53:13 ◼ ► and I only had to do it once. And on all my devices, I have your new email address, right?
01:53:22 ◼ ► if you really think about how much work that is under our feet for this ecosystem, it is,
01:53:28 ◼ ► it's mind boggling, right? And I don't think a company like Metta, even though they're big
01:53:34 ◼ ► and have lots of money and lots of engineers, I don't even think they're trying to catch up.
01:53:38 ◼ ► No, for there was a time in the Oculus days when Metta was going to make it so that in order to use
01:53:45 ◼ ► their VR, you had to have a Facebook account basically. And man, I was so pissed off about
01:53:53 ◼ ► that because I'd already deactivated mine long ago. They corrected that decision and now you
01:53:59 ◼ ► can just have a, you know, an account for the Metta Quest that's not connected. But even that,
01:54:04 ◼ ► I think they were like edging towards that. They were suggesting that they were going to try to
01:54:08 ◼ ► build an ecosystem that was all tied together so that they could advertise to you everywhere equally.
01:54:14 ◼ ► But it's not happening. And there's just so much smart, brilliant building going on in the Apple
01:54:23 ◼ ► world that in Apple space, you could almost call it, that ties it all together. And I think just
01:54:29 ◼ ► like moving down the line. So this is what I've got on my list, Mac, iPhone, iPad, watch AirPods,
01:54:35 ◼ ► Apple TV, and a whole bot, right? These are all the main core products. So moving on down to iPad,
01:54:43 ◼ ► really you've got, what you've got is a small screen and a media device, like a small screen
01:54:48 ◼ ► entertainment media consumption window. And I mean, that's here, that's here in VisionOS.
01:54:57 ◼ ► It is that if the one of the pillars of defining this, the Vision Pro is it as a media consumption
01:55:05 ◼ ► device. It's a huge screen media consumption device. Remember back in the days when we would
01:55:11 ◼ ► discuss whether Apple was ever going to make its own TV screen, right? Well, they just did.
01:55:16 ◼ ► And it is enormous. And that's really fun. That's a great fun way to spend time thinking about this
01:55:24 ◼ ► thing. And it's one of the things that people bring up the most often is like, "Oh, wow,
01:55:28 ◼ ► I don't know if I'll do any work with it, but I know I'm going to watch movies in this thing."
01:55:32 ◼ ► Pete: I tried to touch on that in my review, right? Where I really do think this is a credible
01:55:40 ◼ ► $3500 device if it's just for watching movies and including those 3D immersion type things. And
01:55:47 ◼ ► you've got to be, as a professional filmmaker, it has to be so, like, I don't think my writing
01:56:01 ◼ ► JS What's your favorite, just as an aside, what's your favorite way for people to read your writing?
01:56:14 ◼ ► you know, it shows how shameful it is that I don't really have an iPhone optimized layout for the
01:56:24 ◼ ► site. But I would guess maybe the iPhone or the iPad, you know. I guess the iPad, I would say,
01:56:30 ◼ ► would be the best way. If you said, you know, if I was heading off to prison for five years and I had
01:56:39 ◼ ► a goodbye post, you see in five years, what's the best way to read that? I guess I'd say the iPad,
01:56:57 ◼ ► through a tiny little straw like the iPhone screen can be for a long article, right? Like sometimes,
01:57:03 ◼ ► even I who write long articles will sometimes look at a long article on my phone and be like,
01:57:09 ◼ ► "I'll save that for later." But for watching videos, this is flabbergastingly good. I mean,
01:57:17 ◼ ► just unbelievable. And it makes me realize, like in a way that the groundwork of the ecosystem of
01:57:27 ◼ ► these apps was there for this platform to launch with already there, where you've already got mail
01:57:34 ◼ ► messages, notes, Safari, and all of your core apps. One thing I've noticed watching like YouTube
01:57:41 ◼ ► and stuff on this device is it really makes it obvious why it's worth it's been worth for years
01:57:49 ◼ ► now shooting 4K video. Because to me, where 4K video really shines over the last two weeks isn't
01:57:57 ◼ ► watching it on a 4K TV, where it's just sort of one to one. It's when you make a giant window here
01:58:05 ◼ ► that's actually too big for 4K, right? You're actually stretching beyond the limits of,
01:58:13 ◼ ► you know, ideally for a window the size that I've made most of my YouTube videos in Christian
01:58:18 ◼ ► Selig's Juno app should be shot in 8K, right? It's an 8K-sized virtual window in front of me,
01:58:25 ◼ ► but people aren't shooting 8K yet. They're shooting 4K. But because it's 4K and not 1080p,
01:58:31 ◼ ► it looks way better than 1080p, right? And it looks better even stretched to the point of a
01:58:37 ◼ ► bit of graininess and noise by making the 4K so big, it's the best 4K has ever looked. And it's
01:58:45 ◼ ► like, I can't believe it. I really did. Did you watch Casey Neistat's video? I know it's got like
01:58:51 ◼ ► six million views. It was my favorite of all the videos, I think. Because he expressed the ineffable
01:59:01 ◼ ► somehow, right? But some of the just random shots, they weren't setups, you know? It was like he's
01:59:07 ◼ ► out in Times Square. He just decided to wear the thing with a battery pack to keep it going all
01:59:11 ◼ ► day. And he and a photographer, he was just walking around Times Square. One chance to get
01:59:17 ◼ ► the shot. But looking at it, it was like, they just put this together in like 24 hours, and it
01:59:25 ◼ ► looks unbelievable. Yeah, well, I think that the main takeaway of that video, that he says at the
01:59:32 ◼ ► end that he wasn't even expecting to get out of it, because he was just going to go out into Times
01:59:36 ◼ ► Square as a joke, as like a goof, as a stunt. I think that he was able to, in capturing that
01:59:48 ◼ ► the, as we've talked about during this call, that's what the device is about. It's about putting
01:59:54 ◼ ► windows bigger than you could ever have access to in your office, on your desktop, in your laptop.
02:00:01 ◼ ► And he went to the largest scale place of the largest city in the country, and where the
02:00:08 ◼ ► screens are enormous and on the sides of buildings. And he was like, "Fuck you, I can do this too."
02:00:12 ◼ ► And he put his screens everywhere, and it was like, that is what this device is. And I think
02:00:16 ◼ ► it was breathtaking for him as he was riding around on a skateboard. And he just sold that
02:00:21 ◼ ► to the audience, and I loved it. Because in a way, I think part of what made his video so genius
02:00:26 ◼ ► is you're definitely not supposed to go out and about in daily life with this thing. That's not
02:00:31 ◼ ► what it's intended to be. And he emphasized that you're, and like I say over and over again,
02:00:35 ◼ ► your windows remain static in space. And so when you see these videos of most people goofing while
02:00:42 ◼ ► they're crossing the street while wearing a Vision Pro or they're coming out of the mall wearing it,
02:00:46 ◼ ► and they're making these gestures with their hands as they walk, that's all fake. It's obviously fake
02:00:52 ◼ ► because none of the windows in, almost none. It's like there's a couple that stay hovering in front
02:00:57 ◼ ► of you. When you connect AirPods, it'll say, "Hey, do you want to connect these AirPods?"
02:01:01 ◼ ► That window will stay as you're walking, will stay an equal distance in front of your face.
02:01:07 ◼ ► But 99% of the interface stays behind as you walk. So all the people making these videos where
02:01:14 ◼ ► they're pretending to gesture at things while they walk across the street are faking it. Whereas
02:01:19 ◼ ► he mentioned that. He was just being completely honest. And by wearing it in a place where it's
02:01:26 ◼ ► not really meant to be used, Times Square, New York, and showing the footage of what he was seeing,
02:01:33 ◼ ► it's somehow the wrongness of using it there showed off the amazingness of what it's capable
02:01:41 ◼ ► of doing. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you kind of briefly mentioned it, but as a tool for
02:01:55 ◼ ► hopefully most of the industry is thinking in this way, but not only are we now thinking of telling
02:02:06 ◼ ► but telling stories in three dimensions, we now have access to in an intriguing way that most
02:02:13 ◼ ► people don't want to put 3D glasses on. But if they're already in this thing, they're going to
02:02:17 ◼ ► want to see stories in stereo. But also for me as a technology storyteller, telling tech stories
02:02:25 ◼ ► about this tech, about this space is so much more compelling than a shot of the iPhone over and over
02:02:32 ◼ ► again, over the shoulder. I've been stuck in the rectangles, in the boxes for 15 years of doing
02:02:38 ◼ ► this now. And finally we get to put this stuff in floating in space the way we've been trying to do
02:02:44 ◼ ► it for all these years. How many times do you think you've composited fake iPhone screens?
02:02:54 ◼ ► who was doing a lot of those early comps with me, we were doing a green screen app for the phone,
02:02:59 ◼ ► and we were going to make just a compilation reel of all of the sandwich over the shoulder device
02:03:04 ◼ ► shots. But yeah, that technology is so squainty, the quaint at this point, those small screen
02:03:11 ◼ ► experiences are so quaint relative to this. And it's like I know YouTube started as a desktop
02:03:23 ◼ ► could make a YouTube video. It just feels like though, coincidental or not, I think YouTube
02:03:34 ◼ ► exploded in popularity when mobile exploded in popularity. There was some kind of fit between
02:03:49 ◼ ► while you're sitting on the subway or while you're waiting in line at the grocery store or wherever
02:03:55 ◼ ► else. And it was fantastic for popularity and it's made YouTube a world changing platform.
02:04:05 ◼ ► But creatively, like from your perspective, it does sort of come back to the David Lynch argument.
02:04:12 ◼ ► Don't watch my fucking movie on your fucking cell phone, right? Like I don't, it's meant to be
02:04:18 ◼ ► looked at at a big beautiful screen. And now it's like we've gone through the looking glass
02:04:23 ◼ ► and these anybody, any kid with a phone that has a, and every phone you can buy from the
02:04:31 ◼ ► last few years has a really good camera on it. And you can make movies that are movie theater
02:04:38 ◼ ► size and look good movie theater size. So some of us at Sandwich got invited to meet with the Apple
02:04:44 ◼ ► pro team because they wanted to talk to us about shooting real professional video in log space with
02:04:51 ◼ ► the iPhone 15 pro. And it was a transformative meeting for me because I was not thinking in
02:04:57 ◼ ► that direction. We've always used the high-end digital cameras to shoot our commercials.
02:05:01 ◼ ► I'm so glad we, though they invited us cause we started doing it just last week. We shot our first
02:05:06 ◼ ► like legit startup, commercial sandwich video with multiple iPhones. And it looks fantastic. And you
02:05:14 ◼ ► using some of the pro capture apps, either black magic or, you know, Sebastian's got Kino coming
02:05:20 ◼ ► out that allow you to capture these images in like really high resolution and log space.
02:05:27 ◼ ► So you can do a lot more with color and post and it gives everyone access to being filmmakers,
02:05:34 ◼ ► whether professional or not, and making true films that is incredible. And it's not only incredible,
02:05:40 ◼ ► just on its own for making video, but it's incredible for this device too. It's incredible
02:05:45 ◼ ► that we're going to be able to capture in the phone, watch these things in vision in large,
02:05:56 ◼ ► I've, there's just people whose work I've never seen on a big screen before. Really. I mean,
02:06:03 ◼ ► I guess you might be one of them, right? It's like, you know, and I've watched a lot of your
02:06:09 ◼ ► videos over the years, but I've never seen one maybe a handful of times on a TV and never on
02:06:17 ◼ ► anything bigger than a TV. And now I can watch everything you've ever shot on a legit movie
02:06:29 ◼ ► so much more engaging. Right. And it's, it's just terribly exciting as a consumer of video.
02:06:37 ◼ ► I can't even imagine how exciting it is as, as a filmmaker. Yeah, it is. I watched a star Wars. I
02:06:43 ◼ ► watched the last Jedi in the Disney theater in that experience. That was really great for me.
02:06:50 ◼ ► Yeah. It's super, super exciting. So moving down the line that we've got the watch next on my list.
02:06:56 ◼ ► All right. And I actually think that like for when I got to the watch, I was thinking, okay,
02:07:02 ◼ ► well there's nothing in common with the watch vision pro has nothing in common with the watch,
02:07:06 ◼ ► but I was absolutely wrong because first of all, that the home view is very visually similar to
02:07:12 ◼ ► the home view of, of the, of the watch home view, but also just the, the hard, the, the design,
02:07:19 ◼ ► the hardware design, you've got the digital crown in common, which, which is kind of fascinating to
02:07:26 ◼ ► me that those are the only two Apple products that work the same way. And also basically if you take
02:07:31 ◼ ► the light seal off of the device, and even if you want to take the straps off too, and just look at
02:07:36 ◼ ► it or hold it in your hand as a piece of hardware, it's actually pretty reminiscent of the Apple
02:07:43 ◼ ► watch in its roundness and like the seamless joining of the, of the glass and the metal.
02:07:49 ◼ ► So yeah, that's, that's all I would say about that. Otherwise there's not a lot of crossover.
02:07:55 ◼ ► Yeah. All right. Next on your list. AirPods. I mean, really spatial audio and the idea that
02:08:02 ◼ ► audio can be augmented reality. Yep. And I've been saying that argument, making that argument,
02:08:09 ◼ ► at least since the noise canceling AirPods came out that they're Apple's first AR product.
02:08:14 ◼ ► Yep. But using this feels like seamlessly stepping from one platform to another without
02:08:22 ◼ ► even worrying about the gap or any kind of it's like, Oh yeah, this is like AirPods plus plus.
02:08:27 ◼ ► You know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's so usually they say augmented reality is when you're just
02:08:33 ◼ ► adding a layer of digital on top of the real, but I think that the vision pro is an augmented
02:08:40 ◼ ► reality cause it's actually replacing it's reproducing reality. So it's more like virtual
02:08:43 ◼ ► reality. I think, I think that's the technical definition, but the AirPods do the same thing.
02:08:49 ◼ ► They reproduce this, the sound reality of your world and they use that to make it feel transparent.
02:08:56 ◼ ► Yep. And I'm just playing around. I don't know what you can see in my persona. I'm playing
02:09:01 ◼ ► around with my digital crown. I've spent most ever since we started talking about whether I was on
02:09:06 ◼ ► the moon or in my, in my basement, I've settled into the moon and I just dialed it back to my
02:09:14 ◼ ► basement and I realized again, I'll just say the same thing again. It's just uncanny how intimate
02:09:21 ◼ ► you sound when I'm dialed out to the moon and then it's not trying to bounce your voice off
02:09:26 ◼ ► these walls in this room. It is it's intimate really. I honestly, this is something I'm
02:09:35 ◼ ► just spitballing here, but you, I mean, just to break the fourth wall a little bit, you and I are
02:09:42 ◼ ► close personal friends, right? You're like a dear friend. And I don't know that I would like doing
02:09:49 ◼ ► this if with a guest on my show who I don't consider as dear a friend, you know what I mean?
02:09:54 ◼ ► And I know most of the people I have on a regular basis are my friends. And so most of them it would
02:10:00 ◼ ► work, but you know, I occasionally have special guests on who just have a new product out or
02:10:05 ◼ ► something like this. I almost feel like talking like this to somebody for two hours is too much,
02:10:10 ◼ ► right? It's like being, you and I can get in a car together and go on a four hour drive and we'll
02:10:16 ◼ ► talk each other's ears off the whole time about this same stuff. It's like, but if you were with
02:10:24 ◼ ► No, I wonder if there's other ways of creating more distance if it's an uncomfortable intimacy
02:10:29 ◼ ► in this context, whether, I don't know, I almost like, to me it was almost fun to like the idea
02:10:36 ◼ ► of sharing, because I have my MacBook camera on me looking like a complete dork with big goggles on
02:10:41 ◼ ► and in front of a microphone. And I almost like want that in the corner of my, you know,
02:10:48 ◼ ► my FaceTime window. So you can see like, oh, it's actually not that intimate. I'm actually just
02:11:10 ◼ ► I am, and I feel like it's you. And I do feel like there's this other aspect where it's like, man,
02:11:16 ◼ ► you can just wake up and you don't have to comb your hair. You don't have to do anything. You
02:11:21 ◼ ► don't have to worry about, you know, oh, I didn't even take a shower. I've got the same shirt on I
02:11:25 ◼ ► had on yesterday. Well, it doesn't matter because your persona has the shirt on and when you captured
02:11:31 ◼ ► Yeah. I joined a Zoom call, a client Zoom call with like five members of my team, three members
02:11:36 ◼ ► of the client side. And I joined it in Zoom on the Vision Pro, but I kept my camera off
02:11:41 ◼ ► for almost the whole meeting until like the last two minutes. And then I was like, okay,
02:11:46 ◼ ► let's try this. Let's see, let's experiment, see what happens. And we all know what it's like that
02:11:52 ◼ ► first initial shock of seeing a digital persona in a flat window is like, take it away. But then you
02:12:04 ◼ ► Apple TV. Yes. I mean, that's pretty clear. It's Apple TV used to be the biggest screen,
02:12:10 ◼ ► big screen media browser. And it's now there for the communal experience of watching media.
02:12:21 ◼ ► communal as well. But that's what a TV is. It's for there to be an object in your space that
02:12:33 ◼ ► And then the last one is HomePod, but that's almost not even, it's same as spatial audio.
02:12:41 ◼ ► It adjusts itself to the physics of your space and it's also a Siri client. So I guess that's
02:12:49 ◼ ► how it ties in. But yeah, no, all sort of laddering up to this idea that the vision is really,
02:12:55 ◼ ► it's not its own thing. It's sort of everything all at once. It's a container for every Apple product.
02:13:08 ◼ ► especially when they, 15 years from now, 20 years from now, when these things really are
02:13:13 ◼ ► just like glasses. Maybe I wake up in the morning, I put my glasses on and I've got this OS in front
02:13:21 ◼ ► of me until I go to bed, take them off, put them on my nightstand and that's when they charge.
02:13:31 ◼ ► We are having a shared experience next to each other on a couch and we're not isolated with
02:13:36 ◼ ► goggles. We just have glasses on, but we can see the same movie or TV show. Maybe, but even if that
02:13:44 ◼ ► never comes to pass, I feel like there's something about the fact that this does encompass all of
02:13:50 ◼ ► those products. It really does. And it's right now, it's in a very personal way that's just for
02:14:00 ◼ ► Yeah. I think where it gets to eventually, even in the glasses form, which I believe that the glasses
02:14:07 ◼ ► form is still an intermediary step to its final, to the end game. Let's say it does get miniaturized
02:14:13 ◼ ► into glasses that you can put on and take off. It will be a communal product where we can both
02:14:18 ◼ ► experience the same digital reality. But past that, I think it's jacking right into your
02:14:24 ◼ ► central nervous system and making you see these pixels that are not physically in any form.
02:14:30 ◼ ► I think lenses go away, screens go away. And what's interesting about the Vision Pro version one
02:14:37 ◼ ► is to me, it's showing us an early version of that end game where pixels are just in our space.
02:14:44 ◼ ► Digital stuff is just in our physical space. And that's the world that we're rushing to
02:14:54 ◼ ► I wasn't quite sure what happened to me, but we must have crossed the sunset boundary here
02:14:59 ◼ ► in Philadelphia because the moon went pitch black. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got an environment
02:15:05 ◼ ► set on automatic. I've got my environment sent to automatically switch between light mode and
02:15:10 ◼ ► dark mode, which when you're in an artificial outdoor environment, which I guess the moon
02:15:14 ◼ ► qualifies as it means it gets dark. And yeah, this happened to me last night where my environment
02:15:20 ◼ ► just shut off completely. And I'm not talking about nighttime. I'm talking about blackness.
02:15:25 ◼ ► There was a void and I don't, it was a, it was a hardware hiccup. The hardware has only crashed on
02:15:30 ◼ ► me once, but the software has crashed a few times. Yeah. Just like my windows were there and it was
02:15:36 ◼ ► blackness behind and it was really unnerving. We still need the real world, man. Yeah. I don't
02:15:45 ◼ ► know that I've ever had the hardware crash, but I've definitely had it. I don't know where to place
02:15:49 ◼ ► the blame, but there was one time during the review process where I had to figure out how to
02:15:55 ◼ ► restart it. And I guess the answer is, so you know about force quitting, right? Yeah. You hold down
02:15:59 ◼ ► both buttons for four seconds and you get a force quit menu. Yep. That's just like the Mac version.
02:16:04 ◼ ► It's really neat. Yeah. I mean, if, if you think force quitting is cool. I think it's cool. I think
02:16:09 ◼ ► it's very useful. But if you just keep pressing them for like eight seconds or 10 seconds, it
02:16:16 ◼ ► restarts the whole system. Yeah. You get this, don't you get a slider to like, yeah, to shut down.
02:16:21 ◼ ► And if you keep pressing the two buttons though, it'll do it automatically even without the slider,
02:16:27 ◼ ► like if it gets so locked up that it won't let you slide. Yeah. Right. But the, the way I restarted
02:16:32 ◼ ► it during my review process, I didn't figure that out. I just pulled the power cable out.
02:16:36 ◼ ► Yeah. But yeah. But the fact that some of the apps can be buggy and need to be forced quit to me,
02:16:45 ◼ ► it's just part of honestly part of the fun. It's early game. Yeah. It's early days. It's and yeah,
02:16:51 ◼ ► exactly. It's every time there's like a little hiccup like that, you just get to see a little
02:16:56 ◼ ► glimpse of where it's going to be, where it's going to improve. Well, this was a wonderful
02:17:00 ◼ ► conversation. What a great idea. This was wonderful for me. I was really looking forward to this.
02:17:04 ◼ ► Like I said, in my text, I texted to you one of the, this, this time happens like what,
02:17:10 ◼ ► once when a new platform is introduced once that redefines computing once every what decade and a
02:17:16 ◼ ► decade and a half. And so this first, these first days of capturing this experience in a way that
02:17:23 ◼ ► we might remember it in the future. Right. So special. I never want to forget this. Yeah.
02:17:30 ◼ ► And I'd never, there's nobody I'd rather do that with than you, John. So thank you very much.
02:17:34 ◼ ► Well, thank you very much, Adam. That was very nice. All right. I will also thank our two sponsors