The Talk Show

395: ‘I‘m a Real-World Man’, With Adam Lisagor


00:00:00   This is a whole new you quite literally is the first time this version of you has

00:00:03   ever been captured before.

00:00:05   So so laying the stage, this is me and my good friend, Adam.

00:00:10   We are FaceTiming each other.

00:00:13   Both with vision pro on, and I'm looking at his persona.

00:00:18   He's looking at my persona.

00:00:20   We're also recording our audio separately for the audio version of the podcast.

00:00:25   And we are here while using vision pro to talk about vision pro.

00:00:30   That's right.

00:00:31   It's a, it's a mind bender of, of like of a type that I've never, ever experienced before.

00:00:38   We're capturing ourselves in like eight different ways and also simultaneously viewing ourselves and listening to ourselves in eight different ways.

00:00:47   And we've had to figure out how they all connect to each other and what it's all going to turn into for the listener.

00:00:55   And that is the most mind bending exercise in cognition that I worry I'm not able to compute.

00:01:02   I'm simply not able to wrap my head around this.

00:01:05   Let me also put up front too, that if all goes well, knock on wood, we're going to have a YouTube version of this, which is our personas looking at each other talking.

00:01:15   And so you might want to, if you're in your podcast player, just listening to the audio, if you're thinking, huh, maybe I'd rather do the YouTube version.

00:01:22   Maybe you want to switch over now and see if you like it.

00:01:24   Yeah.

00:01:25   What was your buying experience like?

00:01:27   I simply ordered it because I know enough now that I don't have to wait in line for the thing.

00:01:33   I don't have to be there for the retail experience for the thing to exact.

00:01:36   You know, that was the first few years of iPhone.

00:01:38   Definitely spent the night, you know, in front of the Apple store when iPhone one came out, but I, I really just enjoy the convenience of it being shipped.

00:01:46   Now it was getting later in the afternoon on ship day and my, my few friends who had ordered it, theirs had arrived already and I was getting impatient.

00:01:55   So I got in the car and I ran to the, where the UPS truck was in my neighborhood.

00:01:59   I've learned the trick with UPS drivers is, Hey, can I save you a trip?

00:02:04   That's what you always say, which is a very, my dad thing to say, can I save you a trip?

00:02:08   And then you're on their side, right there.

00:02:10   You're not trying to be greedy, have the thing before it's ready.

00:02:13   I can't remember the details of it.

00:02:16   I do remember there was one time in the early years, I don't know if it was an iPhone or what, where I.

00:02:22   Chased the FedEx guy down the street somehow.

00:02:26   And he knew me when they know you they'll, they'll just hand it over.

00:02:29   Sure.

00:02:30   My buying experience is obviously always different than everybody's because I don't necessarily need to buy it because I've had the review unit since beforehand, but I did buy one.

00:02:39   And I thought when I placed the order, well, since I'll already have one.

00:02:45   I didn't have the review unit yet, but I knew I would.

00:02:48   I thought, well, maybe I'll do in store pickup to see what that's like.

00:02:53   Because I feel like with this product, it's different and I don't need to do that with a iPhone or certainly not a Mac.

00:03:00   But I thought with this, maybe I will.

00:03:02   And I got a Saturday evening pickup.

00:03:06   So the second day and the weirdest part about it was that I got a different light seal size in person at the store than I did when I measured myself.

00:03:18   And when I was out in Cupertino before getting my review unit with Apple, you know, we did the face measuring thing and for privacy sake there, you know, I've done this.

00:03:28   I've had like five demos of this thing since June.

00:03:32   And every single time I would do the face scan over a because I guess the software was evolving and they wanted me to use the latest version of the measure your head with the phone thing.

00:03:41   And then B for privacy reasons, even if I said, just go ahead and keep my eyesight prescription and keep my face size, they wouldn't keep it for privacy.

00:03:51   But like two weeks ago before I got the review unit, I was out in Cupertino for the final briefings before this thing came out and did the face scan again.

00:04:02   And then a couple days later, did the face scan at home when I did my own preorder.

00:04:09   And so both in Cupertino for my review unit and at home when I scanned it myself for the one I bought both times it came up as a 25W.

00:04:21   You know how these things there's I think they go from 18 to 33 for sizes and they're all either N or W.

00:04:30   And N either stands for normal or narrow.

00:04:32   It doesn't really make a difference.

00:04:35   And W is wide.

00:04:36   So it was an exact match.

00:04:38   It wasn't like, oh, in Cupertino I got a 24 and then at home I got a 25 or something like that.

00:04:43   They were both 25W's.

00:04:44   But then on Saturday night when I went to pick up the one I ordered at the Apple store, they were very nice.

00:04:52   The store wasn't crowded, but it was 6.30 on a Saturday.

00:04:56   They did kind of know who I was a couple or one of the guy who kind of gave me the guided tour had no idea, which is kind of the way I wanted it.

00:05:04   But there were people there who knew exactly who I was.

00:05:07   But I said, ah, sure, I'll take the guided tour.

00:05:09   Let me I want to see what regular customers get.

00:05:12   And I'm really glad I did.

00:05:13   But that started with me doing the light seal face scan again.

00:05:17   And this time it came up with a 33W, which doesn't sound close to 25 at all.

00:05:24   Sounds quite different.

00:05:26   And then we got to the end of it and Amy came over.

00:05:31   Then she was on the phone call when I first came.

00:05:33   She was like 10 minutes behind me, but she wanted to see me go through all of this.

00:05:37   So it was like a nice little party there with like a guy, a couple of guys from the Apple store, me and Amy.

00:05:42   But then after my guided tour, it seemed like a real dilemma and it seemed like it was an unusual situation.

00:05:50   It seemed like most customers who had pre ordered if they got size 25W then in the store, they got it again, just like I did in Cupertino and at home.

00:05:59   And they said, well, let's do it again.

00:06:02   Maybe that 33 was weird.

00:06:04   So we did it again.

00:06:05   33W did it again with a different phone that the Apple store had 33W.

00:06:11   So three times in a row on Saturday night, I measured as a 33W.

00:06:16   But two weeks earlier at home and in Cupertino, I got a 25W and this totally triggers my sort of OCD that I have the exact right size.

00:06:27   And if it had been coming up 25 and 26 or 25 and 27, I would think, who cares?

00:06:35   Maybe my face gets puffier at the end of the day.

00:06:37   I don't know.

00:06:37   You're retaining water weight.

00:06:39   Right.

00:06:40   And they said, well, what do you want to do?

00:06:41   And I said, I don't know.

00:06:42   I said, I guess and again, it was helpful that, you know, it was all out in the open who I was and what I do.

00:06:48   I said, well, because I have the 25W from the review unit at home, why don't I just swap it out, do the swap out here and I'll take the 33 that I'm measuring with here.

00:06:58   And so now I have two vision pros, my review unit and my the one I own and I have two different size light shields, 25W and 33W.

00:07:09   And which one feels better?

00:07:12   This is the worst part, Adam.

00:07:14   I don't know, but they definitely feel different.

00:07:17   Do they feel different?

00:07:19   How do they feel different?

00:07:20   They're not like different shoes.

00:07:22   It's not like one fits and one is over large.

00:07:25   It's just they're different.

00:07:27   Nope.

00:07:28   And there's no practical, neither one of them has any more light leak than the other.

00:07:34   Where it feels most different is the one that's the 33.

00:07:40   And again, if I look at them side by side as closely as I can, just take both of them off and just look at the light seals on their own.

00:07:48   And they're, you know, for those of you who don't have one yet, they're super easy to attach and detach.

00:07:53   In fact, they're so easy to attach and detach that it's like the number one thing you have to learn is not to pick up the whole device by the light seal because it just magnetically pops right off.

00:08:01   If I look at the two light seals on their own side by side, I with my eyes, I can't see what the difference is.

00:08:07   It doesn't look like one if I stack them on a table, it's like, oh, this one's a half a centimeter taller or something like that.

00:08:15   No, I don't even see it.

00:08:16   But when I put it on, it feels ever so slightly wider at the sides of my eyes.

00:08:25   So in other words, exactly at the spot on my face where now that I'm getting older, I'm developing crows feet, right?

00:08:31   That sort of outer edge of the oval of your eyes.

00:08:36   The 33 just feels like a wider set of goggles, even though when I look at them side by side, I can't see that it's wider and it just feels a little wider.

00:08:45   And it I'm not used to it because I spent so much time during my review process with that 25.

00:08:52   This feels a little weird to me because I kind of got used to the other one.

00:08:57   Yeah.

00:08:57   Well, wider seems like what you would want because it's just it's giving you a wider birth.

00:09:03   The one thing I know from early use is you don't want to scrunch your face because that actually has an impact on your facial expression in your in your digital persona.

00:09:12   The first time I put mine on and got on a face call, I realized that it was like sitting weird against my forehead.

00:09:17   And I looked angry.

00:09:18   I looked at angry at the people I was talking to.

00:09:22   So I don't know.

00:09:23   I just think you want more comfort in that realm, like a little bit of a looser fit, you know, a dad gene of a

00:09:28   Yeah, I think so.

00:09:30   So I that's and so if you told me right now you have to pack up your vision pro and leave your house for a month and you can only take one of them with you.

00:09:39   I think I would take the 33 the bigger one, which I think is bigger.

00:09:43   I don't even know.

00:09:44   I just assume a bigger number is bigger.

00:09:47   Maybe.

00:09:47   Maybe it's European sizing and smaller is bigger.

00:09:50   And I've seen some people speculate that these sizes aren't really is that the N and W are more size, you know, now or wide and that the numbers relate more to curvature types and that some are for flatter faces and some are for rounder faces.

00:10:07   And it's not necessarily a size per se, but this maybe feels Yeah, maybe it's just a vibe.

00:10:12   Maybe it's not physically related at all.

00:10:15   You're just getting an apple sort of an assessment of the vibe.

00:10:19   And I'm very trusting when it comes to that stuff.

00:10:21   I it's kind of like the Sphinx knows all you know, like Apple.

00:10:26   Tim knows, you know what my sizing needs are.

00:10:29   So I'm just going to go with it.

00:10:30   And I know that my experience might be like two degrees different with the light seal that Tim chose for me.

00:10:36   But I'm okay with that.

00:10:38   I want that.

00:10:39   I want my experience to be defined by that that instinct of my vibe.

00:10:42   Yeah, I would feel so much less.

00:10:46   Like I said, triggered if it was debating between 25 and 27 instead of 25 and 33.

00:10:52   But I think I'm just going to go with the 33 and it just it feels like it disappears on my face more than the other one, which I think can only be a good thing.

00:11:01   Yeah, absolutely.

00:11:02   It's because this is at the end of the day, this is hardware that you don't want to feel.

00:11:06   You don't even want to know that it's on your face.

00:11:09   That's part of this conversation is we have to sort of like define what this thing is and what it isn't.

00:11:15   Especially like sort of in context of all of the other stuff that Apple makes.

00:11:19   I think that's a really important part of the conversation.

00:11:22   But I mean, you know, like having used it for a week now, that's my single greatest takeaway is that when you've been using it all day or for hours or whatever it is, it's supposed to disappear.

00:11:37   You're not supposed to think about the fact that you even have this thing on.

00:11:40   And it should be so stark that when you get up to pee and you go and pass by yourself in the mirror, you're like, oh, oh, that's right.

00:11:48   I have a computer strapped to my face and I had almost entirely forgotten about it.

00:11:52   And you're supposed to forget about it in the way that you are never going to forget that you're using a laptop or an iPhone.

00:11:59   Right.

00:12:01   Yeah. And it's so hard to explain that because it's both simultaneously true for me and not true that I never quite forget that I've got a very face heavy thing on my head.

00:12:14   I know exactly what you mean.

00:12:16   When it's doing the job of immersing you in the digital experience in front of you, then you've kind of forgotten about it.

00:12:23   But that's kind of a rare thing to happen because for the most part, you are being reminded of the physicality of the thing, whether it's tethered to your pocket or whether somebody walks into the room and they're like, ha ha idiot.

00:12:36   And you're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, that's right.

00:12:39   Every time Amy comes in, she'll say something like that.

00:12:43   And, but I do, I forget that I'm there.

00:12:45   So I, I don't know if I should have saved this for the end or just get it out of the way at the beginning, but I feel like I want to get it out of the way.

00:12:53   While it's in my mind, because I feel like it's what we're talking about.

00:12:57   And I find myself losing time in this device in a way that I haven't lost time with a device in decades.

00:13:08   I think I had the same sort of experience with the iPhone in 2007 when it was brand new, but because that device was so small, it didn't quite feel.

00:13:22   Like I just lost track of time.

00:13:24   The iPhone never has felt fully immersive like this.

00:13:27   What to me it goes back to is when I first got my first Mac in college in 1991 as a freshman, I was in college for such an interesting period of years because in 1991 the dorms at Drexel didn't even have Ethernet, let alone Wi-Fi.

00:13:47   Wi-Fi was years away from being invented.

00:13:49   So there was no network in the dorms.

00:13:53   And by the time I graduated in 1996, everybody had email.

00:13:58   Internet was everywhere.

00:14:00   It was, would have been ridiculous to just in the period from my freshman to senior year of college, it went from nobody has Internet and almost nobody has email to everybody's on the Internet all the time.

00:14:11   Totally.

00:14:11   Yeah, I started college in 96.

00:14:13   So I was freshman class.

00:14:15   We got Ethernet in the dorm room.

00:14:16   It was, it was life changing.

00:14:18   But I, in my freshman year in particular, like I just spent all of my free time on my computer in my dorm room, even though we didn't have the Internet.

00:14:31   I wasn't a partier, you know, hardly ever went to like fraternity parties or whatever else freshmen would do.

00:14:39   And I didn't get involved in the student newspaper at Drexel till my sophomore year.

00:14:43   So I didn't really do that.

00:14:46   I played rec league basketball.

00:14:47   Wasn't like I was a total shut in, you know, and I had a bunch of friends who I kept for the rest of college.

00:14:53   So it wasn't all day every night on my computer.

00:14:56   But for the most part, what I how I remember my entire freshman year of college was just spending lots and lots of time on my Mac in my dorm room, not even networked.

00:15:09   And then by the end of the year, I've told this story on the podcast before we set up the what was it called the Apple Talk network.

00:15:15   It wasn't the Internet.

00:15:16   It was just like stereo cable, like just copper wire that we hung through the drop ceiling through the floor and then dropped into everybody's room so we could play the game Specter together.

00:15:27   The sort of battle zone.

00:15:29   Yeah, totally remember that game.

00:15:30   But if you ask me, well, what did you do when you were just by yourself?

00:15:35   Like in my roommate, my freshman year did pledge a fraternity and he would, you know, Friday and Saturday nights was off and out.

00:15:41   And he was a great roommate.

00:15:43   He was a friend from high school and we got along great.

00:15:46   But I remember it was sort of like, hey, that's great that he's getting out of here.

00:15:50   Like I just not it wasn't like I was there was no interest.

00:15:54   It wasn't like I was like looking at porn or anything like that wasn't that I wanted to be alone for privacy sake.

00:15:59   I just wanted to be left alone to use my computer.

00:16:01   Well, I know exactly.

00:16:02   I know the exact answer to this question.

00:16:05   Like what were you doing?

00:16:06   And it's the same answer as what we're doing right now and why we want to spend time in it.

00:16:11   Because you want to be immersed in that world because you've never been there before and it's super exciting and it's almost euphoric because you're doing stuff that you've never felt before.

00:16:20   And it's exactly the same for the first Mac experience or whatever it was that transformed you into a person that wanted to live and work in technology for the rest of your life.

00:16:29   Yeah.

00:16:30   And again, I did have some games.

00:16:32   There were some weekends where maybe I was playing Leisure Suit Larry or whatever the hot games were of 1991 for the Mac.

00:16:38   Sim City was big.

00:16:39   Shufflepuck Cafe.

00:16:40   Sim City was a big one in 1991.

00:16:42   Corralica.

00:16:42   Oh, and there was a PGA Tour Golf that I really liked.

00:16:46   But a lot of times I was just like in ResEdit just taking apart like an application and remaking the icons, you know, in the icon editor inside ResEdit.

00:16:58   Yeah.

00:16:58   And it could be like, I don't know, eight, nine o'clock on a Saturday night.

00:17:04   My roommate would leave, say he's going to a party and next thing I know it's 2 30 in the morning and he's coming back in the room and I'm still sitting there.

00:17:15   Yeah.

00:17:16   And I'm like, I thought he just left.

00:17:18   And then I look up in the corner of my Mac and see that five hours have gone by and I'm finding myself having that sort of, I can't believe this.

00:17:29   And the way it manifests itself with this device in particular is I know it's fully charged.

00:17:34   I've left it fully charged overnight and I think I'll start using it.

00:17:38   I think I'll just watch a couple videos.

00:17:39   I've been saving up a couple of these YouTube videos that I wanted to watch on the device about the device.

00:17:44   And next thing I know, I hear this very sad bloop, bloop, bloop.

00:17:49   I think the AirPods make the same sound when I get to like 20% battery life.

00:17:54   And then I think to myself, I think I had this experience while trying to review it.

00:17:57   I think, Ooh, I should quick write this down.

00:18:00   The battery life stinks.

00:18:01   I, and then I check the time and I'm like, Oh no, that's been three hours.

00:18:05   This is actually much better than the promised battery life.

00:18:07   How have I been in here three hours?

00:18:09   Yeah.

00:18:10   Also, you should just jack into your power when you're not moving around, up, walking around.

00:18:15   It's just good hygiene, good practice to just connect it to power because it is going to run out.

00:18:21   We don't need that experience.

00:18:22   And it's only in transitory moments that this is a mobile device.

00:18:25   Otherwise it's a computer.

00:18:27   And you sit down and use the computer.

00:18:29   And I I've gone for long periods of time as well, just losing myself.

00:18:34   And I feel that the most joy I'm getting out of it in those times of losing myself

00:18:39   is just figuring out how the damn machine works,

00:18:42   how all the software works and really training myself to use it.

00:18:46   I think the one thing that is less often talked about among early vision pro users is that there

00:18:53   is a learning curve to this thing.

00:18:55   And I remember when my family got our first Mac, it was a Mac classic,

00:19:00   and it was set up on the dining table so the family could all enjoy this new computer.

00:19:03   And you start it up and there's this onboarding program, like a game,

00:19:07   like an application that would teach you how to move.

00:19:11   Like if you move the mouse around, then the arrow on the screen moves and you can go up.

00:19:15   You move your hand forward, it goes up and you select a word and then it drops down a list of words.

00:19:21   And this was not, we didn't know this stuff already.

00:19:25   You had to learn it.

00:19:26   And I think that that's actually where we kind of are with the vision pro is we're still learning

00:19:30   what all these conventions are.

00:19:32   And of course we're way smarter about this stuff now.

00:19:34   The learning is going to come quicker, but there is still learning to do.

00:19:38   And so I think those early reactions is like, this doesn't work good.

00:19:41   This is all, this is broken stuff.

00:19:43   Well, how about maybe you haven't learned it yet.

00:19:46   Maybe you're going to get better at this.

00:19:47   Even something like typing with the virtual keyboard, you're going to get better.

00:19:51   You're going to get learning, you're going to get better at learning the eye targets.

00:19:55   You know, I heard Marco on ATP saying that he discovered that he would look at a thing.

00:20:01   And before his fingers had tapped it, he was already looking away because he's looking at

00:20:05   the next thing, right?

00:20:06   You have to compensate for that.

00:20:08   And that's not something that you like consciously learn.

00:20:10   You have to intuitively learn that stuff and develop the muscle memory for it.

00:20:15   And I love that we're in that phase right now.

00:20:17   It's so cool.

00:20:18   And in the same way that like that Mac LC had a 12 inch display on a cramped dorm desk.

00:20:25   And it's like, well, how can you get fully immersed in a 12 inch display on a, by today's

00:20:31   standards, incredibly slow computer that had no connection to the outside world other than

00:20:36   what you brought in on a floppy disk?

00:20:38   But it did.

00:20:39   Right.

00:20:40   And so in a sense, I would fully immerse myself and just be lost for five, six hours back

00:20:46   then just learning and dicking around with the Macintosh.

00:20:50   Yeah.

00:20:50   So much so that families would have an entire room dedicated to that machine.

00:20:55   Yeah.

00:20:55   You go into the computer room if you need to immerse yourself.

00:20:58   Everybody sort of learned that I think when they brought computers in their house where

00:21:02   it's like, or at least if somebody was enthusiastic about it, it's like you kind of need to make

00:21:06   special room for it.

00:21:08   You don't want it in a room where your people are doing other things.

00:21:11   I don't know.

00:21:11   That's right.

00:21:12   But in some ways it's like inside out with this device where physically there's these

00:21:18   reminders that you're wearing a thing on your head that weighs you down and that there's

00:21:23   a strap you need to adjust on the back of your head.

00:21:26   Right.

00:21:26   But on the other hand, what you see, you said it very well earlier in the show.

00:21:32   It's like you do sort of forget that you're looking through cameras, showing you stuff

00:21:37   that's projected onto screens in front of your eyes and you do pass in front of a mirror

00:21:41   and you're like, "Oh, crap.

00:21:42   I forgot I was wearing it even though I didn't really forget I was wearing it."

00:21:46   There's a part of your brain that forgets you're wearing it and another part that can't

00:21:50   possibly forget you're wearing it.

00:21:52   But it kind of cleaves your brain in two.

00:21:55   And the physicality of the device will only continue to get more and more diminished.

00:22:00   And it reminds me of when the iPhone 4 came out.

00:22:04   You got to sit down with Steve Jobs.

00:22:05   And I remember you telling me the story.

00:22:08   You used it for the first time and you said, "I can't see pixels.

00:22:13   It looks like I'm touching the information.

00:22:16   I'm touching the UI."

00:22:17   And he kind of smiled because he knew.

00:22:20   You picked up on this detail.

00:22:22   The physicality of the artifacts of the pixels had disappeared.

00:22:29   No more pixels in the iPhone.

00:22:30   And I think that obviously this is version one of this thing.

00:22:34   So who knows when we get to the equivalent of the version four where it really does start

00:22:41   to feel like just the information in front of you.

00:22:44   Pete: Look at the original Macintosh, right?

00:22:48   Or like that classic that your family started with, right?

00:22:51   Almost nobody would consider that an acceptable form factor today, right?

00:22:55   A black and white nine-inch screen that has to be plugged into the wall and even when

00:23:00   you do unplug it from the wall weighs 25 pounds.

00:23:02   Nobody would consider that an acceptable Macintosh computer today.

00:23:06   I tried to get at this in my review, but like eventually we will look at this set of Vision Pro

00:23:13   goggles and see, well, that was completely unacceptable as a form factor.

00:23:18   But the platform is here, right?

00:23:22   Pete; Yeah, the proof of concept is so strong already.

00:23:25   Pete; Let me ask you this.

00:23:27   Here's something I don't think I touched on in my review because I don't think it

00:23:31   hit me until afterwards and sort of picking it up from other people's reviews and like,

00:23:38   especially with this device, like when it's just a new iPhone, which I don't mean to

00:23:43   diminish with the word just, but you know, we're up to iPhone 15.

00:23:48   I mean, there's been a lot of them.

00:23:49   I don't feel lonely being in that week period where I have a review unit and most of the

00:23:59   people I know don't have one yet.

00:24:01   And you know, and part of it is that I'm such good friends with some of my fellow

00:24:06   reviewers like Joanna Stern and Neelai Patel.

00:24:08   And so, I do have people to talk about, you know, like when Touch ID is new or Dynamic

00:24:15   Island or something like that.

00:24:16   And it feels like being able to talk to like two or three other people for the week is

00:24:20   like, ah, that's good.

00:24:21   But with this product, I couldn't wait.

00:24:24   It wasn't like, oh, I'm so special.

00:24:26   I got a review unit a week of everybody else.

00:24:29   Look at me, look at me.

00:24:30   In fact, it just felt very lonely.

00:24:32   I couldn't wait for everybody else to start getting them because it's like, I need other

00:24:37   people to actually be able to say, yes, I know.

00:24:39   I know what you mean, right?

00:24:41   I needed that so badly with this.

00:24:43   But one of those aspects is it just didn't hit me until after I wrote my entire review

00:24:48   that one of the weirdest things about this product is fake reality that you immerse yourself

00:24:56   in looks far more realistic than actual pass through reality.

00:25:02   Yeah.

00:25:02   Right.

00:25:03   And it's because the virtual reality, like if you just use the immersive surroundings

00:25:12   thing and say, okay, put me on the moon.

00:25:14   They've either photographed or I guess with the moon rendered this stuff at the highest

00:25:22   resolution possible.

00:25:24   And when you encounter dinosaurs, right, it's all 3D rendered at the highest possible fidelity.

00:25:29   Or you look at the documentary they have of the woman on the tight rope up on top of the

00:25:34   mountain.

00:25:35   Well, that was shot with crazy expensive like 8K cameras or something like multiple 8K cameras

00:25:42   to get all of the 180 degree immersion.

00:25:44   Whereas when I look at real reality around me with these, I'm looking at through these

00:25:50   sort of effectively like cell phone quality cameras that have to go do the pipeline processing

00:25:58   through the R1 chip in this crazy small amount of time.

00:26:01   And so it just is backwards from what you would expect.

00:26:05   You would just expect, well, reality surely is the easy part and virtual reality is the

00:26:09   hard part, but it's the opposite.

00:26:11   And now that I've noticed it, it's constantly disconcerting to me.

00:26:15   Hmm.

00:26:16   That's interesting.

00:26:17   So you're finding that synthetic environments feel more real to you.

00:26:20   Right.

00:26:22   Even though I know they're not.

00:26:23   Yeah.

00:26:24   I don't think that I have the same experience and it might just be because of my own knowledge

00:26:30   of how those synthetic environments are made.

00:26:32   Because those are all computer generated.

00:26:34   I'm fairly certain those are all modeled.

00:26:37   Like the moon, the Joshua tree, and those might be an exception.

00:26:41   I'm not sure, but.

00:26:42   Or some kind of mix of rendering versus photography.

00:26:44   Yeah, totally.

00:26:45   Like high, really high res with depth mapping so that everything parallaxes when you move

00:26:51   your head back and forth.

00:26:52   But I feel like there's a higher bar to get to like super plausibility for me.

00:26:57   Cause I'm used to artifacts in my life.

00:26:59   I feel like we've, we're.

00:27:01   I thought that we were all kind of like this is that we're so used to observing the world

00:27:07   through cameras, through lenses and sensors.

00:27:11   That we're comfortable with the degradation of the re of, of, you know, it's all mediated

00:27:16   through a degraded capture process.

00:27:19   So like I buy into that.

00:27:22   My, my brain connects to that reality and calls it, Oh, that's reality.

00:27:26   And so I, I, I don't think I value necessarily the synthetic environments as much as just

00:27:35   being able to pass through and see an approximation of my real reality.

00:27:40   To me, that's the mindblower and even the much, much worse version of it in the meta

00:27:45   quest three, which is like full color, but all warpy and everything, a lot lower res

00:27:50   to me, that's still plausible reality.

00:27:53   And it's like, okay, I would take that over being closed off from the whole world.

00:27:57   But, but I think that's interesting to your point about loneliness.

00:28:02   It's really important to be able to communicate and share these experiences with the device

00:28:10   or with the tech early on with other people who are in there and feeling what you feel.

00:28:15   That's like kind of the most valuable thing for me right now, too.

00:28:18   I got on, I don't know, my co-founder Beamer.

00:28:22   He got, he got one on the same day and we're just like spending all day and in it and like

00:28:26   FaceTiming and stuff and, and working together.

00:28:29   I got one for sandwich so that our visual effects supervisor could be using it.

00:28:34   Cause we're developing an app for it.

00:28:36   And so that we could see the same thing because if we're going to be rendering CG models for

00:28:42   this app, it's not okay to just do it in the simulator.

00:28:46   Like he needs to feel what I feel and what the user's going to feel.

00:28:49   I've been able to give the guest mode tour to a few people.

00:28:53   And every time you get that joy of unlocking it, unlocking the experience for somebody

00:28:57   who didn't know what to expect.

00:28:59   Have you done guest mode with like for Amy and others?

00:29:02   Yeah.

00:29:02   Well, just Amy really so far.

00:29:04   And on the one hand, and she was really worried about it because she has like the way her

00:29:11   vision has always worked her whole life, her two eyes together.

00:29:14   Well, for example, go back to the nineties.

00:29:16   Remember when there was that stereoscopic poster craze?

00:29:19   Yeah.

00:29:19   Magic eye.

00:29:20   Yeah.

00:29:21   Magic eye posters.

00:29:22   She could never see them.

00:29:23   And she, she have two left eyes.

00:29:26   I don't know why that's funny to me.

00:29:28   It's sort of like that, right?

00:29:30   It's like she, you know, her vision is fine in both eyes, you know, with glasses, but

00:29:35   she just has trouble seeing 3D stuff.

00:29:36   Sure.

00:29:37   And like when she tried my quest, she saw double right away and I don't know.

00:29:43   There might've been a way to adjust that.

00:29:44   That's interesting.

00:29:45   I don't know.

00:29:46   But when she tried this in guest mode, she did not see double and expected to.

00:29:51   And that was with my corrective lens inserts, which I think are a little too strong for

00:29:56   her, but she liked it.

00:29:57   But on the other hand, I kind of feel like guest mode is a pain in the ass.

00:30:02   It is a pain in the ass for sure.

00:30:04   I don't know what they were thinking.

00:30:05   Like, I kind of feel like there's some easy fixes for it, but like the big problem is

00:30:11   your vision pro is tied to you and it uses optic ID, which is like face ID or touch ID

00:30:17   to unlock things automatically and your key chains locked to it.

00:30:21   And for the most part, if somebody just picks up your vision pro and tries to put it on,

00:30:26   they either need to have your eyeballs for optic ID or they need to know your numeric

00:30:32   passcode for the device.

00:30:34   So it's just like trying to use somebody's iPhone without their face.

00:30:37   You need their code or you need their face.

00:30:38   And with you put it in guest mode in control center and it's not too hard to put it in

00:30:46   and they're like, but then there's like a prompt, like which apps do you want them

00:30:50   to have access to so that they can't look at your email or something?

00:30:53   Maybe you just want to give them permission to use the dinosaur adventure thing.

00:30:57   And then you take it off and give it to them.

00:31:00   And if they take it off for even a minute, then it locks again and they have to give

00:31:07   it back to you and you have to go through the whole thing all over again, put it back

00:31:10   in the guest mode and then hand it back to them.

00:31:12   Yeah.

00:31:13   It's really, it's a bummer when the flow gets disrupted.

00:31:17   This is what I've done every time, which is like, first you turn on mirroring.

00:31:22   Cause I, so let's say I have my Mac or I have an Apple TV.

00:31:25   I mirror what I'm seeing so that they can see it.

00:31:28   And then I just say, you tap your fingers together like this.

00:31:31   You select something like this.

00:31:33   You bring up the home screen like this and I select apps.

00:31:36   And then let me show you a couple of things and I'll moving this, you know, I just do

00:31:40   like a quick demo, maybe a minute and a half.

00:31:42   And then I leave mirroring on.

00:31:45   That's really important.

00:31:46   So you can see what they're seeing and then you go and then they go through the setup

00:31:50   flow.

00:31:51   And unfortunately there's that friction because it needs to calibrate to their eyes in order

00:31:54   to work.

00:31:55   Otherwise it's going to be a terrible experience for them.

00:31:57   So yeah, like Apple had a challenge in this guest mode thing.

00:32:02   To me, I've had a good experience with it so far, except for the one time that mirroring

00:32:06   stopped.

00:32:07   And then I wasn't able to explain to the, to the guest what to do next.

00:32:11   Cause I couldn't see what they saw.

00:32:12   And then there's like the uncomfortableness of handing over your unlocked device to somebody,

00:32:18   you know, I just, that's all my stuff.

00:32:20   No, don't.

00:32:21   Okay.

00:32:22   Promise you won't go through my stuff.

00:32:23   But yeah, I think the benefits far outweigh the friction for me right now.

00:32:28   Cause this, I don't know, it's almost like they see what you see and suddenly you're

00:32:33   able to speak.

00:32:34   Like you, you get a shared vocabulary from it and it's no longer.

00:32:38   So because, so Roxanna, my partner, it was a few days that I had the vision pro at home

00:32:45   and I was using it in front of the family, regrettably.

00:32:49   You know, cause I looked like such a super dork and you know, I just had to beg, like,

00:32:53   this is one of the most important things that's happened in tech in my life.

00:32:56   You know, in a long time, let me have this.

00:32:59   And then I promise I'll let you in on what's going on.

00:33:02   And she wasn't that curious about trying it out, but eventually we're sitting there in

00:33:07   bed and I said, do you want the demo now?

00:33:09   And she said, sure.

00:33:10   We realized that if you're on the outside of this thing, I can't think of a different,

00:33:15   another technology where the chasm between how cool it is to the person using it and

00:33:22   how lame it is for anybody not using it is so wide.

00:33:25   I can't think of another thing like that.

00:33:27   And it's even so hard to reproduce in media for anybody to understand.

00:33:33   And that's really regrettable, but when they cross that chasm, it's so huge.

00:33:38   It's very valuable.

00:33:39   And now they, you know, something clicked the first time Roxanna got the demo and the

00:33:44   moment where it actually did click for her, other than moving windows around and seeing

00:33:48   in stereo, it's showing her a spatial video that I shot from Christmas morning with our

00:33:54   new puppy.

00:33:55   And then she's like, oh, you know, now I get it.

00:33:59   And that was all that had to happen.

00:34:00   Yeah, it is.

00:34:02   And do you find yourself, I find myself continuously and poor Amy is my victim because Jonas is

00:34:09   off at college where I keep wanting to say to her over and over again, and this is now

00:34:15   over two weeks running, come here and look at this.

00:34:18   And I expect that if she's over my shoulder, that I can point at what I'm seeing that

00:34:24   is really cool and that she'll see it because otherwise I'm in the kitchen.

00:34:29   She sees the same refrigerator that I see.

00:34:32   She sees the same kitchen counter that I see, but she doesn't see this cool window of

00:34:38   content that I see that is right here and I cannot get it through my head.

00:34:43   It comes back to this level of immersiveness and not the immersiveness in a fake world,

00:34:47   like the mountain tops or the surface of the moon, but the immersiveness of these windows

00:34:53   seem like they really are in the room that I'm in.

00:34:55   Like right now, talking to you, I'm down here in my basement podcast studio.

00:35:01   I haven't dialed up any immersion.

00:35:02   I'm just, it just looks like my cluttered junkie full of boxes basement, you know?

00:35:08   But it's almost unfathomable to me that if somebody came and stood behind my shoulder

00:35:14   that they wouldn't see you.

00:35:15   I'm in the same place.

00:35:17   Like there's this sense of a shared experience that is really important to this device.

00:35:23   And I think that the device really takes flight or this platform really takes flight when

00:35:28   two people can be in the same space and actually have a shared space.

00:35:32   You know, what Apple calls the shared space right now is in Vision OS when multiple apps

00:35:39   can share space together in your field of view.

00:35:42   And that's a very important version of shared space because that's something that none

00:35:45   of the other VR or XR platforms have.

00:35:48   That version of shared space is mind blowing.

00:35:51   But what I really want is for me and my collaborator or friend to be in the same room.

00:35:58   We're both wearing the thing and we decide what windows we want to look at together.

00:36:02   That's going to be huge.

00:36:04   Now there's approximations of that now with SharePlay that you can share your view in

00:36:09   FaceTime.

00:36:10   There's like baby steps to get there.

00:36:12   But man, is that going to be sweet when we can look at the same windows in the same space,

00:36:16   whether we're together or remote.

00:36:19   I can't wait for that reality.

00:36:20   That's where it really levels up for me.

00:36:23   The other thing too, and it just makes me get lost in the possibilities of it.

00:36:28   I can think of just off the top of my head, there's two very different ways to do that

00:36:33   shared space thing.

00:36:34   One is if you and your colleague are literally in the same room together, like you could

00:36:40   reach out and touch each other.

00:36:41   And then you'd want to have a shared window that you both see in the shared space as appearing

00:36:49   at the exact same position at the exact same size.

00:36:54   And then there's what if you're in Los Angeles and your pal Gruber's in Philadelphia and

00:36:59   we bring up a window that we're both looking at, how does that work?

00:37:04   Where it can't possibly be in the same space because we're not in the same space, but

00:37:07   we're sharing the window at the same time.

00:37:10   And if I resize it, do you see it resized too?

00:37:13   That's a good question.

00:37:14   We could literally try it right now.

00:37:16   We could, in a FaceTime call, you can share any window.

00:37:20   Maybe we should because it'll break our entire intricate setup for recording this.

00:37:25   We'll do it another time.

00:37:26   But I think that that kind of thing is something like, again, that's just like a UI pattern

00:37:31   that we're going to get used to doing.

00:37:33   Just like attaching a photo to a text message or something.

00:37:37   That's not something that was easy when we all first got the phone.

00:37:39   And now it's second nature.

00:37:41   Yeah.

00:37:42   And I guess one of the apps that I've spent, I like opened it up and poked around a little,

00:37:47   but I guess that's maybe what Freeform is there for, right?

00:37:52   It's shared canvas.

00:37:54   You know, it almost makes me wonder.

00:37:57   And every time Apple comes out with a new device, I think people sort of go backwards

00:38:01   in time, years and think, oh, is that why Apple did X, Y, and Z years ago?

00:38:06   Did the iPad cursor support start with this device?

00:38:11   I don't know.

00:38:12   I don't think so.

00:38:13   But I think maybe Freeform did, right?

00:38:15   That Freeform as a concept for an app might've started with this team.

00:38:20   And they were like, well, let's build it for the phone and Mac and iPad first, and then

00:38:25   we'll ship it for this.

00:38:26   But that's a great theory.

00:38:28   I love it.

00:38:28   And there's all kinds of like handoff stuff and universal control stuff that the concept

00:38:33   has been proven across other devices and now is making its way into this device and is

00:38:38   really usable.

00:38:40   It's like really fluid.

00:38:41   Do you have your virtual Mac up right now?

00:38:44   I do.

00:38:44   Right.

00:38:45   So I do too.

00:38:46   And just using the track pad and floating the cursor off the screen and into one of

00:38:53   my vision windows, and it works flawlessly.

00:38:56   And same with the keyboard.

00:38:57   They're not messaging that in any way when you get onboarded to this thing.

00:39:01   Right.

00:39:01   But the fact that we can just figure it out and that's, again, that's just mind-blowing

00:39:07   that they can do that.

00:39:08   Not only are all these windows able to exist in the same space, and that is literally spatial

00:39:14   computing, but we're actually bringing our devices from outside of this space and inviting

00:39:19   them into the space and able to interoperate with them.

00:39:22   Holy shit.

00:39:23   Can you believe that?

00:39:24   All right, let me take a break here and bring this back to a normal episode of the show

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00:41:38   Amazing.

00:41:40   There's so much to talk about with this thing, and I've made a lot of notes, but I think.

00:41:45   Yeah, what do you want to start with?

00:41:47   One cool thing to talk about.

00:41:48   We were just sort of talking about space and sharing space.

00:41:53   One thing that I've noticed now after a week is the space that you're using it in makes

00:41:59   a difference, right?

00:42:00   So I got to participate in a developer lab because like I mentioned, we're making an

00:42:06   app.

00:42:06   Sandwich is making an app for this thing, hopefully launching in like a week or so.

00:42:11   Can we talk about it or is it secret until launch?

00:42:14   It's secret until launch, but it's in the media video space and it's and it's fun, but.

00:42:19   Well, I know what it is.

00:42:21   You know what it is.

00:42:23   And but I don't I will.

00:42:24   I will pretend that I don't.

00:42:26   Okay.

00:42:26   It's super fun, but we're still like polishing it, polishing the video and stuff.

00:42:31   The launch video.

00:42:33   So when I went to the developer lab and don't talk about developer lab, the one thing I

00:42:38   can say is that when they put you in a cubicle, basically, you're sitting there and you're

00:42:44   so the first time you experience vision, OS is in a very confined space.

00:42:49   You've got a studio to display in front of you.

00:42:53   I think that's all I'll say, except that the idea of using vision, OS at a cubicle is

00:43:00   definitely not the ideal environment for using spatial computing.

00:43:04   So then.

00:43:05   It, you know, the real one delivers to my home and now I get to use it in my living

00:43:11   room, which is the ideal.

00:43:12   That's exactly where I want it to be perfect.

00:43:14   And it was, you need to be able to throw windows into the distance and prioritize them based

00:43:19   on the closeness to you and to be able to scale them up and down based on what you need

00:43:25   in your foreground and your focus.

00:43:27   But then a couple of days ago, I took it to the office so that we could do some like TikTok

00:43:33   content about it.

00:43:34   And our office is a big open loft space and it was an entirely different experience using

00:43:41   it in there.

00:43:42   That was something that I wasn't expecting.

00:43:45   And really this thing is designed in such a way that it benefits from having openness

00:43:52   around you.

00:43:53   Cause like the analogy to a screen is kind of perfect.

00:43:56   Even though there's no screen, the screen becomes the space that you're in.

00:44:00   And that is suit.

00:44:01   That is really that that's something that I didn't expect.

00:44:05   Yeah.

00:44:07   Do you think that it's sort of disappointing in so far as it sounds before you've used

00:44:14   it?

00:44:14   It sounds like a product and a platform where it's great.

00:44:18   If you have limited physical space, if you have a tiny apartment or tiny dorm room or

00:44:24   something like that, and now you can create a virtual environment and spread out.

00:44:29   But the truth is it actually, I think it's better.

00:44:32   That's why I use it in my kitchen a lot.

00:44:33   Cause our kitchen is a big, airy open room and it just somehow feels better there.

00:44:41   I almost feel like maybe that's part of the point of making the virtual environment such

00:44:45   a top level part of the system is that, okay, if you are in a physical, your real room is

00:44:51   cramped.

00:44:52   You're going to, you're going to want to use a virtual immersion to feel like you can

00:44:57   spread out.

00:44:58   I think that's such a good insight.

00:44:59   I think what we really want, this is an elemental thing that what humans really want is the

00:45:04   sense of scale of the world or the universe around us.

00:45:07   Like that's what makes us feel great, right?

00:45:10   Is when we can look up into the sky and sort of like know that we exist as part of this

00:45:14   huge system.

00:45:15   And it's like, that is why scale is important.

00:45:17   I know that like, if I can look out over the lake, the virtual lake and put a screen out

00:45:24   there far in the distance, that's going to be a very meaningful, impactful experience

00:45:28   for me.

00:45:29   And it's going to be different from being in my cramped room and throwing a sort of

00:45:35   screen against the wall or whatever.

00:45:36   And it's not that far from me.

00:45:39   Now I can push it out further past the wall.

00:45:42   And when it like, you know, it's that really cool spatial computing design choice that

00:45:49   they've made, where if the window that I'm pushing away from me knows exactly how far

00:45:56   that wall is.

00:45:57   And when it comes up against the wall, it starts to fade out.

00:46:00   Right?

00:46:01   And I can, I can keep pushing it away from me and it's scaling up.

00:46:05   But now it's, it's, it's mostly transparent because it doesn't want me to put that window

00:46:11   beyond the wall.

00:46:12   Cause that physically doesn't make sense.

00:46:14   I love that they've thought of that, but the constraint doesn't happen.

00:46:19   The fade doesn't happen if you're in a giant room or if you're actually looking out into

00:46:23   the world.

00:46:24   So I think scale is so important to this OS.

00:46:27   I don't know.

00:46:29   It's just, it's something that I guess I didn't expect.

00:46:32   Another thing, just talking about space and scale and windows and stuff, what you would

00:46:38   expect to happen is when you, if you take a window and you, you bring it close to your

00:46:44   face, you would expect that the scale of the window stays consistent.

00:46:48   So let's say it's a hundred inch window and you bring it right up close to your face.

00:46:53   You would think it stays a hundred inches and now it's taking up a huge amount of your

00:46:57   field of view.

00:46:58   But what they're actually doing is they're scaling it down to compensate for the distance

00:47:02   from your eyes.

00:47:03   So it's actually doing this as you push it out, it's scaling up as it gets further from

00:47:10   you.

00:47:10   So it's taking up the exact same field of view.

00:47:13   Is that something that you want?

00:47:15   I don't know.

00:47:17   I like my own app that I'm developing.

00:47:19   It doesn't work like that.

00:47:20   Actually, if you push something out, it keeps its own scale.

00:47:24   And that's actually a very enjoyable experience to have things feel like they're more physical

00:47:30   because they're constrained and their scale doesn't change.

00:47:32   Does that make sense the way I'm explaining it?

00:47:34   Yeah.

00:47:35   It's very hard for me to explain the way that the windows, I know exactly what you're

00:47:40   saying.

00:47:40   I can't say it better than you, but it's not what I expected, but I see why they did it

00:47:44   that way.

00:47:44   Yeah.

00:47:44   You know what a dolly zoom is in movies, right?

00:47:48   It's got this dolly zoom effect or like in the show, Severance, when he goes up and down

00:47:51   in the elevator.

00:47:52   You know that, you know, the show and when he's going up and down the elevator, when

00:47:59   he gets to work, it does a dolly zoom effect where the focal length of the lens changes

00:48:06   as the camera changes in distance from him.

00:48:08   And it just has this weird sort of like time warpy effect for you when you move a window.

00:48:14   I kind of love it, but I also kind of don't.

00:48:16   That's something that, I don't know, it's really interesting the way that that works.

00:48:23   What do you think now that we're like, what are we here?

00:48:28   An hour-ish in.

00:48:29   Yeah.

00:48:30   Like, I feel like this is, I don't know that I want to do this every week or every episode

00:48:38   of the show.

00:48:38   I have mixed feelings about it so far.

00:48:41   Yeah.

00:48:42   Oh no, great.

00:48:42   Let's talk about personas.

00:48:44   But on the one hand, it does feel and sound like the most intimate episode of this show

00:48:51   I've ever done.

00:48:52   Yeah.

00:48:52   Other than the ones I've actually recorded in person with somebody.

00:48:57   Right.

00:48:58   Because you never do remote video with the show.

00:49:01   You've never done it.

00:49:01   Almost never.

00:49:02   Only like occasionally like during COVID with the Apple people.

00:49:05   Right, right.

00:49:06   It's a totally different experience recording a podcast with somebody and looking at each

00:49:12   other on video.

00:49:12   Yeah, but this is very different than using Zoom or regular FaceTime.

00:49:16   Totally.

00:49:17   It is far more intimate.

00:49:18   And the sound too.

00:49:20   I've got AirPods Pro in, so I'm still getting spatial audio.

00:49:23   But you don't sound like Adam in my headphones.

00:49:27   You sound like Adam somehow here in front of me.

00:49:30   Yeah, agreed.

00:49:31   Yeah, we sound very present with each other.

00:49:34   And it's very intimate.

00:49:35   I don't hate it.

00:49:37   It's just like it's a lot.

00:49:39   It's like a high intensity experience.

00:49:41   And I think, yeah, like there's something to be said for just getting on the phone and

00:49:46   chatting.

00:49:46   You know what I mean?

00:49:48   There's something to be said for a low fidelity connection.

00:49:54   I don't know what it is.

00:49:55   It allows the other senses to sort of extend themselves to make the connection.

00:49:59   And right now, all of the senses are extended.

00:50:02   Like our senses are in the same room.

00:50:04   Right.

00:50:05   It's like somehow by far more infinite than any remote episode of the show I've ever done.

00:50:12   But at the same time, exhausting?

00:50:14   Yes.

00:50:16   Yeah, I know.

00:50:18   It is.

00:50:20   Well, I can back off.

00:50:23   You can take, I wonder what it feels like to just push your window away.

00:50:27   Now you're bigger and you're further away from me.

00:50:30   I don't know.

00:50:30   I have been playing around with, while we're talking, I've been playing around with moving

00:50:34   in and out of the moon.

00:50:35   And it's interesting what it does to the audio.

00:50:38   Oh, interesting.

00:50:39   Yeah, because it sort of isolates you.

00:50:41   Because there's no sound bouncing around in the moon.

00:50:46   And which is something that the Vision OS actually does, which is that it treats your

00:50:51   audio as though it's bouncing off of all of the surfaces of this room.

00:50:55   Right.

00:50:56   And now that I've just dialed up the moon again, and now it's even more, again, it's

00:51:03   not like your voice in my headphones.

00:51:05   It's like you're a voice in a room, but there's nothing else.

00:51:07   Yeah, I'm on the moon now too.

00:51:09   This is cool.

00:51:10   I also find the audio out of the built-in speakers on the headset to be startling.

00:51:17   And I know it's a visual device first.

00:51:19   It's literally called Vision Pro, but the audio is astonishing.

00:51:23   It truly is.

00:51:26   There are something like six mics on the device, picking up sound in every direction.

00:51:31   And these incredible directional speakers that sit right above your ears.

00:51:35   I wish that they figured out how to, when you're using your Mac virtually, I wish that

00:51:42   they could figure out how to route the sound back to the Vision instead of just playing

00:51:47   it out of your Mac speakers.

00:51:49   Yeah.

00:51:50   That would be cool.

00:51:51   Oh, here's the other thing I noticed about sound that I made a note of is that all of

00:51:57   the sound effects in the OS are like really rich and deep and sci-fi and cool sounding.

00:52:03   But the one that is not is when you send a text message to someone and it goes, is that

00:52:10   really thin sound?

00:52:12   And I don't know why, I don't know why they thinned that out so much, but it feels like

00:52:18   a choice.

00:52:20   What do you, how do you feel about your persona?

00:52:22   Like just...

00:52:23   I don't know, cause I don't see it.

00:52:25   Yeah, you don't see it.

00:52:26   I'm looking at two of you and one of me right now this whole time.

00:52:30   And I also realized that for anybody watching the personas on the YouTube, the video version,

00:52:36   both of our eyes are shifting around a lot in a way that we would never be doing if we

00:52:40   were just looking at each other on Zoom.

00:52:42   Right.

00:52:43   We're in computer space right now.

00:52:45   Right, but I know that you're looking around your environment, so I don't think it's weird.

00:52:48   I think it's gonna be, it's gonna look like we're glitching to people who are watching

00:52:53   the video, but it doesn't seem unnatural to me that you're not holding my gaze for over

00:52:58   an hour.

00:52:59   Yeah.

00:52:59   Yeah, well that's good.

00:53:01   All right, I'm gonna take another break here and thank you for the next sponsor.

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00:55:23   >> Great. Can we talk about the home screen?

00:55:28   >> Yeah.

00:55:29   >> If we're sort of like coming to the final act of the episode, I want to talk about the

00:55:35   home screen and the OS and sort of like the software experience of it and then broaden

00:55:41   it out to where it fits in that language, where it fits into the all the other Apple

00:55:46   devices that there are and see if we can come to some sort of conclusion of meaning of where

00:55:53   this fits for the world.

00:55:55   But just starting with that home screen, what's that like for you?

00:55:59   The fact that it's early days, that it's that set of app icons that you can't reorder,

00:56:06   you know, the way it moves, the way it feels, the constraints of it, what it doesn't have,

00:56:12   no doc, that kind of thing. What's your assessment so far of the home screen?

00:56:16   >> I think it's kind of surprising you can't reorder it at all. It's arguably the most

00:56:23   beta-ish feeling thing of the whole system.

00:56:26   But on the other hand, I'm kind of used to it.

00:56:33   >> Yeah.

00:56:34   >> And so what happens as you install more apps is they just get installed, like that

00:56:38   first home screen you don't get to play with. That's Apple's apps.

00:56:42   And then everything else you install just gets sorted in alphabetical order after that.

00:56:47   >> Which is kind of crap because sometimes your favorite apps are later in the alphabet.

00:56:53   My app starts with a T, so that's a problem. But I think reordering is probably coming.

00:56:58   I also sort of wonder whether, similar to the watch, you know, it's been years and years,

00:57:03   I think it hasn't been since the first watch that I actually had the grid view of the app

00:57:09   home screen instead of list view. But you can also use an iPhone app to reorder your

00:57:15   apps or remove some of the icons or whatever, or just take apps off of your watch. So I

00:57:20   wonder if there's maybe like an intermediary solve is whether there's like an app on the

00:57:25   iPhone or something that allows you to reorder or manage your vision of OS apps. Might be

00:57:32   kind of a cool solution.

00:57:33   >> Yeah, maybe. I don't know. What do you think about it so far? I guess the other thing

00:57:38   is there aren't that many apps that I have yet, but it's like on the one hand they do

00:57:42   want to brag that there are 600 native apps in the store.

00:57:45   >> Sure, but they're all in that one folder for iPad compatible apps, which is kind of

00:57:49   a bummer. I don't know. I find myself most often invoking apps just with Siri because

00:57:55   it's kind of, it's a little bit of friction to navigate over in the home screen and, you

00:58:00   know, and then select from that folder. But the ones I'm coming back to over and over

00:58:05   again are like Slack and Calendar and things that things aren't native in vision yet, but

00:58:15   there's an iPad version.

00:58:16   >> And it's kind of, it's not weird, but it's different than the other platforms that

00:58:21   there's no dock where you can put your most used apps.

00:58:24   >> Right, yeah. I don't know what's coming there. The other thing, I mean, I don't mind

00:58:30   it. I like it. It's just, it's not something that I'm interacting with all the time.

00:58:35   Because most of the things, if they require your attention, they'll just come to you,

00:58:41   right? You'll get a little notification or whatever. And I think the premise is that

00:58:44   you can just like keep a lot of windows open at the same time and then just turn your head

00:58:49   wherever you need access to that app, which is, I mean, it's connected to the Mac in

00:58:55   that way that it's the only other device that has multi-app, like this kind of multi-app

00:59:00   use for multi-purpose at the same time.

00:59:03   >> Where stuff is side by side.

00:59:05   >> Yeah.

00:59:05   >> Yeah.

00:59:06   >> Yeah. I like it. Visually, I didn't realize this until a few days in, but spiritually,

00:59:13   it's the most similar to the watch home screen, right? In the way that it looks, the iconic

00:59:22   way, the circles that are staggered. And I think it's a cool visual effect, how you

00:59:27   swipe left and right in the home screen and some rows move slower than the middle row

00:59:33   and they sort of like de-focus on the edges. It's really interesting in that way. I don't

00:59:40   know. I'm into it. I can't think of a better way to manage your apps for this thing.

00:59:44   >> I think it's interesting and I keep calling it a home screen too, but they call it the

00:59:49   home view because it's not a screen. It's just sort of a view that gets overlaid over

00:59:54   whatever's in front of you right now. And I guess that's sort of the thinking is that

00:59:58   the whole home view sort of is the dock. It's just a dock with everything. I don't know.

01:00:04   Again, it's just one of those things where it is like our biggest complaint, or at least

01:00:09   the most obvious complaint is that you can't reorder the apps or customize the order. And

01:00:14   I don't know what the answer is to that. Presumably, I would think it would just be like the iPhone

01:00:20   where you put them into jiggle mode with a long press or something. Maybe they have a

01:00:26   much more ambitious idea. I don't know. But it is the sort of thing that I find myself

01:00:33   losing half an hour of time just thinking about. And I'll just sit there and play with it and

01:00:38   slide it back and forth. I don't want to do it right now. I just don't want to screw up

01:00:45   this call. You know what I mean? Because I do find myself occasionally screwing things up

01:00:50   Do you find that sometimes, for example, I find myself closing Safari tabs when I want

01:00:55   to activate them because the tab is relatively small and the button is part of the tab. And so

01:01:03   it's pretty easy to be looking at the close button when you want to close the tab or when you just

01:01:08   want to activate the tab. And there's a couple of other things. And it gets back to your point

01:01:12   that Marco mentioned where it's almost like I feel so comfortable basically with the look at it with

01:01:21   my eyes, tap it with my index finger and thumb that I went from feeling, "Oh, this is weird and novel.

01:01:30   I better go slow." That only lasted like a minute back in June when I had my first demo at WWDC.

01:01:39   And every experience since, I feel like I want to, I feel like a precocious child who wants to

01:01:46   impress the teacher by racing ahead and zipping through this interface as fast as I can.

01:01:52   But the truth is I can think faster than my eyes can stay on the same target while my fingers tap.

01:02:03   Right? And so that thing Marco said, and I've seen other people in their reviews mention it,

01:02:08   is you look at the button and you know you want to tap it and you see that it's highlighted and

01:02:15   your fingers start to do the tap and your eyes are already moving on to the next thing you want to do

01:02:20   and then your eye, by the time your fingers actually tap, your eyes are somewhere else.

01:02:25   Yeah.

01:02:26   And so it is, I guess that's, I don't know why I'm bringing it up in the context of the home screen

01:02:34   or home view. No, no, it's all right. It's all in the same category of just like how do we manage

01:02:40   all this stuff and move around in it. And to me it connects to the home screen because,

01:02:45   or the home view, because something that I'm doing in the Mac and the iPhone, iPad, whatever,

01:02:51   is constantly switching between apps. And I find that without a keyboard, there's just no great

01:02:58   way to do that, to do app switching. Like I'm command tabbing and that's probably the thing I

01:03:04   do most in the Mac is command tab. And there's not any, or in the iPhone, you're doing the bottom up

01:03:10   gesture to switch between apps, doing that constantly. So there's not a good gesture yet

01:03:16   for doing that, for doing app switching like that. Apparently it's coming in the next, or it's in the

01:03:21   next, the beta of the next OS update, but to just automatically bring the app that you've just

01:03:28   selected back into the foreground, that's a pretty important thing to do in terms of app switching.

01:03:33   The thing that changes the game for me, and I think it's almost like important for anybody to

01:03:38   know this who's thinking about using a vision pro is like getting a, like a small magic keyboard

01:03:44   is a game changer, especially for Safari. I find like for closing tabs, for opening new ones, for

01:03:50   going directly to the URL bar is just going to be at least three times faster to do all that stuff

01:03:57   than doing it with your eyes and your fingertips. Right. And as big and bulky as this headset is in

01:04:04   the travel case is, did you get the Apple travel case? I did. Yeah. It's beautiful.

01:04:09   Were you surprised by how big it is? I expected it. I've got a case from the

01:04:13   meta quest and I kind of know that just like to fit all of it in there, it's gotta be that big

01:04:19   for the configuration. It is very nice though, right? Yeah. It's super nice, such high quality.

01:04:25   And feels sort of futuristic. I mean, and again, I haven't taken it out of the house yet,

01:04:30   so I don't know how it might. My observation in my review is using a white fabric

01:04:35   seemingly means it's going to get scuffed up and dirty by sticking it underneath airplane seats.

01:04:42   Yeah. I think it's pretty resistant to dirt and stains and stuff.

01:04:45   Maybe. I don't know. It kind of, I always joke. Do you ever see that picture of the Pope? It was

01:04:50   like an AI deep fake. Oh, you should put Balenciaga. Yeah.

01:04:54   Yeah. It made it look like he was wearing this super cool, and it's like, well,

01:04:57   why doesn't the Pope have a cool winter coat like that? He kind of should, right?

01:05:01   But it looks like it's made out of what I imagine that imaginary white puffy coat fabric to be made

01:05:08   out of. Yeah. It's so NASA. It's super spacey. Yeah. NASA, right. It seems astronaut-y as we're

01:05:14   talking here on the surface of the moon. Yeah. I love it. And I came back out into my room

01:05:18   because I didn't, I was getting bored of the moon. Like I'm a real world man. But I do wish that the

01:05:25   I want a case that has space for the magic keyboard. I tried to get one of those tiny

01:05:29   Bluetooth, like HTPC thumb keyboards, but it just wasn't, wasn't doing it for me. You really,

01:05:36   cause you really need to like look at those things in order to type with them.

01:05:39   But a small, like I feel the magic keyboard is tiny in size. It's lightweight and it's got a

01:05:47   full configuration of the keyboard layout and you can hide windows and close tabs and type way,

01:05:56   way, way easier than with the virtual keyboard. You know, I love my mechanical keyboards and it's

01:06:02   funny cause I have an old key cron one. I don't want to spend time bitching about it, but I,

01:06:06   I spent a surprisingly it's Bluetooth, which is why most mechanical keyboards require a wire.

01:06:13   But I guess the they're sort of catching up to the world where most of them, or at least most

01:06:19   of the newer ones have Bluetooth too. But this key cron K2 that I've had for, I don't know,

01:06:24   five or six years now, maybe longer is the only Bluetooth mechanical that I have in the house.

01:06:29   Jonas took a bunch of my other ones with him to college, but I couldn't get it to pair with this,

01:06:35   even though like I've paired the magic keyboard and I'm 98% sure the problem is I eventually did

01:06:42   enough research that the key cron I have only supports Bluetooth 3.1 and Bluetooth now is up

01:06:50   to like five point something or maybe even six. And I think that's what it is. I think vision OS

01:06:55   doesn't support Bluetooth older than some cutoff and this keyboard, even though it works with all

01:07:01   my phones and iPads and max, whatever, but as much as I'm a fan of mechanical keyboards,

01:07:08   I do have to admit that imagining traveling with this headset, the magic keyboards,

01:07:13   almost insane light weight is like, it's like you can't imagine Apple's. I never, and I never

01:07:20   really thought about it before, but you almost wouldn't want it to be any lighter weight,

01:07:25   right? It would almost, it would be like you could blow on it. It would blow around like a sheet of

01:07:30   paper. Right. I just want to be like, I throw it in my tote bag cause I bring it around with me

01:07:35   in the Mac, but I, I would love an all in one, but you know, it's just like, I didn't appreciate how

01:07:42   crucial an accessory it's it was going to be for the vision pro because the virtual keyboard as

01:07:49   great as it is for when you don't, when you don't have anything else and maybe when you don't want to,

01:07:56   you don't want to dictate it, you know, virtual keyboard, you can figure it out. You can pack

01:08:01   hunt and pack. You can look at keys and tap is way slower and that's fine. Like how else are they

01:08:08   going to solve for that? I would hope that people don't think, Oh, I can't use the physical keyboard

01:08:14   cause it's a step back. It's not native to this tech. I absolutely think it is just like, it's

01:08:19   a keyboard is important for a Mac. Yeah. I almost feel like it's, it's not worth worrying about. I

01:08:25   mean, I, if they have some theoretical panzerino and I, in the last episode of the show, we're

01:08:29   talking about the, the way everybody imagined virtual keyboard to work would be to project

01:08:34   one onto a tabletop in front of you or do it, you could set up a tray, the, the food tray on your

01:08:41   airplane and tell the device project a virtual keyboard in front of you. And then you could just

01:08:48   type on that. You know, that's an obvious idea, right? I mean, it's been in science fiction movies,

01:08:55   everybody can, you know, so maybe Apple's been working on it. Maybe there's somebody's there

01:08:59   making progress on it. Maybe that's a pipe dream. And that for multiple reasons would,

01:09:04   will never actually work because you don't get any physical feedback from it, right?

01:09:09   You'd be even the slightest click to keys is sort of important to the field of typing.

01:09:15   But I think getting caught up on the fact that you can't natively type. Well, I don't think,

01:09:23   you know, somebody will have a typing contest with this thing eventually. And some kid is going to

01:09:27   type in an astonishing rate just by staring. Yeah, I saw one. There was, there was a typing

01:09:32   contest on already on Twitter. Yeah. And somebody, somebody was prodigious. Yeah. Yeah. I, one of my

01:09:44   favorite things to do with the vision pro is just use my Mac in it. And there's a keyboard there

01:09:48   right in front of me. And there's plenty of solutions to that problem. I guess where I'm

01:09:54   going though, is it most people need a physical keyboard to really do actual writing work with

01:10:00   this thing. That's not worth worrying about that much more than the fact that we need actual

01:10:04   speakers on the headset to hear each other and that there need to be two 4k displays in the

01:10:10   headset in front of our eyes for us to see the world around us. The keyboard is just a part of

01:10:15   the physical nature of the device. Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's I do find this is,

01:10:22   this is one of my nits with the current version of the OS is that that virtual keyboard is always

01:10:29   popping up in your face, reminding yourself that it's there. Like even if you have a physical

01:10:35   keyboard attached, it should, I wish that it was a little bit more intuitive about knowing that

01:10:40   because anytime there's a text field, the virtual keyboard is right there blocking my view.

01:10:45   Yeah. And I don't know why sometimes I don't even know why. Sometimes I do know why I'll be like,

01:10:51   Oh, I was looking at the, or like in the messages, right? There's the little text box at the bottom

01:10:58   of the window where you've put the input focus when you want to type a message to somebody in

01:11:04   messages and you're like, Oh, I just wanted to move the window around, but I looked up a little

01:11:09   too much and I saw the text field highlight and then I tapped my fingers and now I'm stuck with

01:11:14   this keyboard. I don't want, but then there's other times where the keyboard pops up and I

01:11:18   don't even know why I don't, I can't even imagine what it was I was looking at that made it look up.

01:11:23   Yeah. And also, I mean, it's very intrusive, but also I can't figure out what the purpose of the

01:11:28   text preview is in the, in the virtual keyboard. Oh, why would I need that? Because what I'm

01:11:34   typing is going into the field that I'm typing in. So I think that's about people who need to

01:11:41   look at the keys on the physical keyboard, but that's the, there's a similar pop-up above the

01:11:48   physical keyboard. Like it shows up above your MacBook keyboard. If you pair your MacBook with

01:11:53   your thing and it's like having the iPhone's auto-complete bar on a physical keyboard.

01:12:01   And I think the reason is to support people who look at the keys while they type.

01:12:05   Fair enough. That's as good as, that's as good as any answer. And that's good enough for me.

01:12:09   This is where I'm, you probably don't remember such devices, but like when Amy and I were in

01:12:16   high school, you know, I didn't have a computer at home. I had a word processor. And the word processor

01:12:22   was really a glorified typewriter and mine only had like a one line LED display. So in other words,

01:12:31   the current line that I was typing, I could see, you know, like almost like a calculator, black and

01:12:39   white, very super fat pixel display. And then when I hit return, that line would get flushed from

01:12:47   memory and clickety-clack, clack, clack, clack, typed onto the piece of paper and the word processor

01:12:53   and then move on to the next one. And I remember Amy in high school had a word processor with a

01:12:58   five line display and it could save like a whole file at once in, on an actual floppy disc, like

01:13:05   an award perfect document. So she could take it to like a PC and read it. But that's what it reminds

01:13:11   me of, that you get like this sort of one line buffer of text right above the keyboard before

01:13:18   you actually send it. But it does, it seems so anachronistic, right? It's like, I'm throwing back

01:13:25   to like a word processor my parents got me like in 1989 for my sophomore year of high school for the

01:13:32   sort of, you see one line of text before you actually commit it for lack of a better verb.

01:13:38   - Yeah, I think all it took was you using the word support for the people who need that style

01:13:44   of typing and I was sold. What do you think about just for the last kind of topic, why don't we go

01:13:52   down the list of all the other Mac products and figure out how it ties together or Apple products?

01:13:58   'Cause that's kind of like the big thesis that I was kind of coming to is that all of them come

01:14:04   together. Every device in the ecosystem is sort of connected to this one in an interesting way.

01:14:09   - Before we do that, I have two grab bag topics before we get there. I think that's a good final

01:14:16   topic. Number one, do you find it surprisingly hard to drink any kind of beverage while you use

01:14:22   this product? - Yeah, totally. I think, yeah, coffee cups, coffee mugs are hard as Joe Aniston

01:14:28   noted that a wine glass is hard. So yeah, it seems like you're drinking water out of maybe

01:14:34   like a smaller like mouth hole right now. - Right. - Yeah. - My friend, Mike Davidson,

01:14:43   you know Mike Davidson. He got it and it was like, how come you didn't tell me I should have bought

01:14:47   bottled beer before getting it? - Yeah, or a CamelBak or like lots of cray straws for your jumbo,

01:14:56   your big gulps. I think that's what we're gonna need in the future. - But there's a real physical

01:14:59   problem with the way that the headset comes forward from your face that I guess the other guy,

01:15:06   everybody, I don't know, did you have an uncle like this? Everybody I knew had an uncle who would

01:15:10   at some point in your childhood take you aside like at a family holiday gathering and say,

01:15:16   "Hey, I don't know, I'm not telling your parents how to raise you or anything, but you know,

01:15:21   it's incredibly rude for you to put your nose in a glass while you drink."

01:15:27   And I was like, "Oh, I didn't know." I thought it was like elbows on the table or whatever.

01:15:31   And then I would try to drink without putting my nose in the glass. - That's such a good uncle guy.

01:15:38   - Yeah, and it was my uncle, my mom's uncle actually did, he was more like a great uncle or

01:15:44   whatever you call like the uncle equivalent of a cousin, Stosh, good Ukrainian name. And then it

01:15:50   took me like three or four tries and then realized, and then I look over at him at the table and he's

01:15:56   laughing at me and I'm like, "Geez," you know. But there is something to that, like the way that your

01:16:02   nose does go into a glass inevitably as you drink from it that is impossible while you wear this

01:16:08   device out in front of your face. - Yeah, the thing really protrudes and like it's, I don't

01:16:14   know, I've caught myself bumping it up against things, not knowing that I was too like that

01:16:19   close. And it's, which the only reason I care about that is 'cause the thing scratches easily

01:16:24   and I don't want scuffs all over my dang computer. - Yeah, the other grab bag topic was the fact that

01:16:33   there is a bit of light leak around your nose all the time. And to me, again, this is another little

01:16:41   thing I picked up from my in-store buying experience. And then this was from the guy

01:16:45   at the store who had no idea who I was just giving me the thing and he's like, "How's that fit?" And

01:16:50   I was like, "Yeah, I feel it's good." And he's like, "Do you see any light around the sides?" I'm like,

01:16:54   "Nope." And he goes, "I'll bet you." But he goes, "You do see a little light around your nose?"

01:16:58   And I said, "Yes." And I've been thinking about this with my review unit for like 10 days

01:17:02   beforehand. And he goes, "That's totally normal. That's actually by design. It's sort of an

01:17:07   anti-nausea thing. It keeps you a little bit oriented. And it also is an anti-fog thing

01:17:14   that there's some kind of air gap so that the inside of this thing doesn't get hot and sweaty

01:17:19   and foggy. And nobody—all the times I had all those demos in the media and Apple—with every

01:17:27   product, Apple PR wants to present the product to reviewers in an optimal way and let you know

01:17:33   everything you should expect. Nobody ever told me that. I thought it was like my weird big nose,

01:17:38   maybe, or something. Everybody I know. And then I've gotten so many texts from friends who got

01:17:44   theirs afterwards and they're like, "Do I have a bad light seal? I see light around my nose."

01:17:49   Over and over and over again. I don't know. And it feels like a total drop ball on Apple's part

01:17:56   that they didn't emphasize clearly enough. And if they did, then I just completely missed it.

01:18:01   That at least around your nose, there's supposed to be a little light leak. And I completely forget

01:18:09   about it about 45 seconds into putting it on every single time. Every single time I'm like, "Oh,

01:18:15   I see that little light leak around my nose." And within a minute, I don't notice it. I haven't

01:18:20   thought about it, talking to you here, until I've just looked at my notes where I was like,

01:18:25   "What was the other thing I wanted to make sure I brought up?" And it was the light leak around

01:18:28   the nose. Yeah, I never think about it either, mostly because I come from the meta quest. I've

01:18:34   had the VR headsets back going to the Oculus DK1. And this one, the light leak around this device

01:18:43   is so much better than any of the others. So I don't know, in the meta quest, you actually

01:18:50   consider it a feature because a lot of times, because there's no interoperability of the devices,

01:18:55   you're not getting notifications in the meta quest. So a lot of times you just need to look

01:18:59   down at your phone and you do it by tilting up your head and you glance through the hole in your

01:19:05   hole above your nose. So I can see that being a feature. I can see it also being very hard

01:19:10   to message that for Apple, because it sounds like it's bullshit. It sounds like they're taking a bug

01:19:16   and calling it a feature. That's exactly what I think. I think that they probably, there's somebody

01:19:21   at Apple who's listening to this podcast and they're like, "Yes, we had 27 different meetings

01:19:27   about whether we should mention the light leak around the nose or not." And that there were

01:19:31   people on both sides and eventually somebody was like, "No, let's just not talk about it because

01:19:35   it sounds like we're making excuses." Yeah, I think that's probably right.

01:19:38   Yeah. What else? Oh, I know. The other thing is, I do want to get to your ecosystem question,

01:19:45   because I do think that's a good final one. But there's another thing that I kind of feel,

01:19:50   like where, I'm going to go there. Where do you think this introduction would have been different

01:19:56   if Steve Jobs were still around? Oh my God, amazing question.

01:20:00   Wow. Well, I think that he would have demoed it.

01:20:06   I do too. I think they would still be doing on-stage demos. I don't know what they would

01:20:14   have done during COVID. And then I think he would have insisted they go back to the old way, or

01:20:22   the old way with some adjustments, but that there still would be live on-stage events.

01:20:27   Yeah, that's the way that Steve always was. He was so iconic for his ability to model an experience

01:20:33   for the people that were supposed to understand it. And I don't think that he would have had a

01:20:39   second thought about putting the thing on in front of an audience and then showing his persona off,

01:20:44   even if it had limitations. He would have proudly shown that off. And because he's Steve with the

01:20:50   reality distortion field, everybody would have lapped it up. He's got an iconic presence,

01:20:56   so it would have translated to the persona. Who knows whether they would still be doing,

01:20:59   if Steve was around, if they'd be doing that more very intricately crafted style of video

01:21:06   presentation that they do now. I think a lot of that is just because Tim probably isn't the

01:21:11   showman and demonstrational presenter that Steve was, and they know that, like know thyself.

01:21:19   So instead, what Tim is able to bring together is this incredible operation where he sets up a story

01:21:28   that takes you on a journey from person to person. The whole product experience takes you from space

01:21:37   to space and flies it around like it's the future, like cameras are weightless. And I think that that

01:21:43   is Tim's deal, but if Steve had demoed this thing, it would have seemed that much more miraculous

01:21:50   when we saw it introduced. Yeah.

01:21:52   Pete: And until the Vanity Fair cover story dropped, there was this repeated, endlessly

01:22:01   since June, notion from the people who either deliberately just to be contrarians or whether

01:22:12   they just honestly felt, I think this product is not a good idea, that they just kept saying over

01:22:18   and over again that we haven't seen, there's a reason why we haven't seen any Apple executives

01:22:23   wearing this thing. You look ridiculous. They know you look ridiculous. So they're not even

01:22:27   letting themselves be photographed. And I've mentioned this, I think I'd mentioned it with

01:22:32   Panzarino last week, but it still frustrates me because if you really think about the dynamics of

01:22:37   how they unveiled it and how they hold events now, there's no context where that would have made any

01:22:42   sense because they don't do live on stage demos. And when Tim Cook went to the hands-on area

01:22:49   afterwards and was photographed in front of one, they weren't letting anybody try those. Those were

01:22:55   just sort of hardware so you could see the hardware and look at the band or whatever else,

01:23:00   but it's not the sort of product where it makes sense. Like you could go out after you deliver

01:23:06   the big keynote for the new iPhone and you go out to the hands-on area and there's hundreds and

01:23:11   hundreds of media and photographers. It's a scrum for lack of a better word. And they can make room

01:23:19   for Tim to come up and approach it and poke his finger at the new phone and touch one of the

01:23:25   buttons or something. But with this device, that doesn't make any sense. You don't just touch it

01:23:29   briefly or point at it or something. You have to, there's no context for it. Only a live demo would

01:23:36   have been a reason why you would have seen Apple, someone from an Apple executive doing it. And I

01:23:40   think Steve Jobs definitely would have. I do. And I'm not saying that that means that they should

01:23:46   still be doing it. I just think when you've got the greatest live demo guy of all time,

01:23:53   you're going to keep using him. Well, there was an earthquake just now in LA. It's still going on.

01:23:58   You should have up to the cliche or anything, but we're shaking. Okay, it's over. That was Steve

01:24:04   just sending a message. He agrees with us. He agrees with us. All right, here's a specific

01:24:09   thing that I think Steve Jobs would have presented very differently from Apple now. I think Apple

01:24:15   is very, very shy about the external battery pack. Lauren Good from Wired had a story

01:24:23   before it shipped where she pointed out that in all of the photos they took of us in the media

01:24:30   who got hands-on demos two weeks, three weeks ago, that the Apple photographer who took those

01:24:36   pictures for almost all of us strategically took it from the other side or the cable was

01:24:44   de-emphasized in everybody's picture and the actual battery pack was out of the frame.

01:24:50   We were usually pictured from like mid chest up while the battery pack is on the ground.

01:24:56   I think Steve Jobs would have done like, it's like jujitsu where he would have said,

01:25:03   "This battery pack," and let me show you how are we powering this incredible computer. Well,

01:25:08   we're powering it with the best battery anybody has ever made. Look at it. It is beautiful.

01:25:14   This is an ingenious solution to a design problem and look how we've figured it out.

01:25:22   It's called battery, right? You would have failed it up and everybody would have lost their shit and

01:25:28   applauded, right? Right. And every one of our competitors is trying to stick their battery on

01:25:34   the strap or they're trying to stick it on front of your face and it gets hot and it's stupid and

01:25:40   we've made it over here and we have this great new cable that'll connect to it. And this device

01:25:46   is such a supercomputer that it needs a big battery and the best place to put a big battery

01:25:50   is right here in your pocket. Yeah, exactly. Perfect messaging. Yeah, maybe there's not

01:25:56   that style of messaging anymore. There's not really that style. I find that Apple doesn't

01:26:02   do that style of messaging of like, "The world's best. We cracked it and nobody else could."

01:26:09   They almost message everything as a plain statement of fact. They just describe things

01:26:19   rather than make big claims, but Steve's whole vibe was making the big claim because he could

01:26:25   back it up. And sort of knowing when he was bragging about the thing that really was worth

01:26:32   bragging about. For example, like the iPhone 4 being the first consumer level device with a

01:26:37   retina display. That and like you said, not only made the pixels half the size and made them so

01:26:43   you couldn't perceive them visually, but simultaneously that was the display that put

01:26:49   the pixels even closer to the surface of the glass, which seems like would be less of a big

01:26:56   deal, but was almost as big a deal to making the iPhone seem more futuristic. Well, that was truly

01:27:02   next generation stuff. But like when the first iPhone came out and only had 2G edge networking

01:27:08   and it was super slow, he didn't make apologies for it. He was like, "This is amazing. Look at

01:27:12   this. You're on a cellular networking. You're loading the new yorktimes.com." And yeah, he did

01:27:17   it live on stage and it really was slow because he really did do the demo and it really did come in

01:27:22   over edge and it took a long time for it to load. But he just, you know, it was an internet

01:27:29   communicator all in one device. There's a great line in the great rule writing handbooks, the

01:27:36   Strunk and White. And the white and Strunk and White is E.B. White, who's the author of Charlotte's

01:27:42   Web, was a longtime staff writer at the New Yorker. And Strunk, I forget his first name, but he was

01:27:47   White's college writing professor at Cornell or wherever the hell he went to school. And

01:27:53   it's a funny book. It's worth, as a writer, I think, rereading every couple of years because

01:28:00   it's like, "Ah, that's good advice. I always forget about that. I should do that, blah, blah, blah."

01:28:04   But it's not even writing advice, but Strunk has this line where if you're reading aloud and you

01:28:10   come across a word you don't know how to pronounce, say it loud. If you don't know how to pronounce it,

01:28:17   say it loud. He repeats it. Trust me, I know what it's like to not know how to pronounce words.

01:28:22   Pete: Yeah, you're the king.

01:28:23   John: I'm the king. And so, that advice really struck with me where it's like, I'm also,

01:28:29   I'm surprisingly self-conscious about the fact that I, there's dozens and dozens of words still

01:28:36   in my vocabulary that I encountered as a young reader made my best guess as to how they were

01:28:41   pronounced and then my brain cemented that guess into place.

01:28:46   Pete; It's endearing, I love it.

01:28:48   John; But the idea that you just, "Ah, go with it. Say it loud. Say that word that you don't

01:28:52   know how to pronounce even louder than the other words." That's like what Jobs would have done with

01:28:56   the battery. Yeah, the battery does suck that it's outside and it's heavy and it gets warm and it's

01:29:00   attached to a cable that you forget is always attached to you and if you just stand up and

01:29:05   don't have it in your pocket, it falls or something like that. Screw it!

01:29:08   Say it loud! Say it's the coolest battery anybody's ever made.

01:29:12   Pete; Well, I think one of his methods of storytelling was always to include the audience

01:29:17   in the journey and in the problem that was being solved in a way that they don't really

01:29:21   necessarily do anymore. He always wanted to say, "Listen, gang, it's really hard to do this shit

01:29:28   and these are all the things that we're coming up against and this is how we solved it and I want

01:29:33   you to be as excited as I am right now." And it was always genuine. That's what he got a thrill out of.

01:29:40   Pete; I totally agree. All right, ecosystem.

01:29:44   Pete; Ecosystem. So yeah, like, just making sense of this thing and defining it in my first week of

01:29:49   using it, it's like, "What the hell is it?" And I found just kind of like drawing connections to

01:29:55   all the other Apple things that I use, I found like it was useful to sort of define it

01:30:02   in context of how we would define all the other stuff. Because I do really think that that is

01:30:08   this, that is kind of a, like, that is a startling innovation of this device that only Apple could do

01:30:16   because they have built this ecosystem, right? That's where they win is because that's how they

01:30:20   make this thing the most useful is that they tie it all together. So like the Mac, for instance,

01:30:27   it's like, I brought it up before, it's a multi-window workstation. You bring multiple apps

01:30:33   together, you can sort of like look at them and work with them simultaneously to do a lot of stuff

01:30:38   at once and it's all in this pretty well controlled experience within a rectangle of a screen.

01:30:44   And I think that there's a lot of similarities with the Mac in the Vision OS in that sense. It's

01:30:51   that it's a Windows-based experience where you can bring all these Windows together

01:30:56   in the world's biggest display because it's your space that you're in and you can

01:31:02   use it to get a lot of stuff done or just experience a lot of stuff, whether it's consumption

01:31:07   or creation. That's kind of like one of the things that strongly defines it, including the fact that

01:31:15   you can actually bring your Mac into the space and work with an actual Mac while you're doing it.

01:31:20   Does that resonate with you?

01:31:21   I think it's even more than that though. On the one hand, one of the surprising aspects of the,

01:31:29   going back to our home view discussion, is how many of Apple's own apps still aren't native to

01:31:35   Vision OS, right? Like Calendar is still actually just the iPad app. The only native Calendar app is

01:31:40   from our friends at Fantastic Al right now. Hold on, let me actually bring it up and look in that

01:31:46   folder. Calendar, the Books app, Maps is still an iPad app. But you look at the ones on the

01:31:54   home screen, the first home screen that you don't get to adjust, and you kind of get a sense of what

01:31:59   Apple sees as the key apps of the whole, not of the device, but of the ecosystem, right? Apple TV,

01:32:07   Apple Music, Settings, App Store, Notes, Photos, Safari, Freeform, which I do think sticks out

01:32:15   as something that most people don't think of as one of the most used Apple apps, right?

01:32:21   But I think it sort of speaks to, that's the one that sort of gets elevated as maybe being

01:32:27   especially useful on this device.

01:32:30   Yeah, the most aspirational, I would say.

01:32:32   Mail, Messages, and then Keynote. And like I've joked before, all three of the iWork apps

01:32:38   are equal, but Keynote is more equal than the others.

01:32:41   (Laughter)

01:32:42   Yeah, I agree. And then that demo of the rehearsal environment for Keynote is a showstopper.

01:32:48   Right, right.

01:32:49   But I think you're right, Freeform is a great one. It's aspirational and it invites you to

01:32:55   participate. But I think front and center, like Photos is right in there in the middle because

01:32:59   to me that's the highest priority app for the Vision Pro.

01:33:02   In that list, and so there's, mindfulness is on that screen. I don't use the mindfulness stuff.

01:33:09   It's very cool, but I don't use it either.

01:33:12   Yeah, so there's a couple of exceptions there that I wouldn't say as cornerstones of the ecosystem,

01:33:18   but the ones that are the corners of the Apple ecosystem, Safari, not necessarily in this order,

01:33:25   I don't know. But it's almost impossible to prioritize them. Photos, Mail, Messages, Notes,

01:33:32   Safari, they're all there. My bookmarks are all there. My history syncs across them with iCloud.

01:33:40   So like if I'm looking for Casey Neistat's video going around New York while wearing it,

01:33:47   I was just looking at it on an iPad, but I want to see it on this because I want to make it big.

01:33:52   Well, as soon as I start typing YouTube, my history fills in and it's like the second one there.

01:33:56   Oh, it's already right there. All the notes that I took while using this connected to a keyboard,

01:34:01   and I'm sure you've got like a whole pile of Apple Notes piled up with your observations of this.

01:34:06   Yeah.

01:34:07   The fact that they're all there and then when you're grocery shopping 15 miles from home

01:34:13   and with just your phone with you and another thought comes into your head,

01:34:17   "Oh, I wanted to try blank next time I'm with Vision Pro," and you take out your phone

01:34:21   and there's your notes and you just peck it out with your thumbs on your notes.

01:34:25   And then the next time you're using Vision Pro, you're like, "What was that thing I wrote to

01:34:29   myself at the grocery store?" It's right there. It almost sounds superficial because these are like

01:34:36   the most, we think of them as basic apps. Well, you have to have a Notes app. You have to have

01:34:41   a web browser. You have to have an email app. But the way that Apple has made these apps feel

01:34:49   native and first class on everything from phones to Macs and now this gives them this

01:34:56   incredible leg up over, I mean, who's their closest competitor? I think most people would

01:35:01   agree it's probably Meta. The Oculus hardware division has been very well regarded for years

01:35:10   and that they're sort of doing a bottom-up strategy trying to go from $500 devices

01:35:18   and make them better year over year and Apple's coming from a, "Okay, let's start with our minimum

01:35:24   viable awesome product. Oh, it's going to cost $4,000. Well, we'll make it cheaper as time goes

01:35:29   on year over year." I think that's an interesting strategic difference, right? That Meta is, and

01:35:36   Meta also has the Ray-Ban glasses. And you've worn, what was the product that you had that

01:35:40   was more glasses like? It's not from Meta. Oh, it's called X Real Air. Yeah.

01:35:45   Yeah, X Real Air. And you know, you let me try them at WWDC this year, in fact. Yeah,

01:35:51   it was, and really, it's not like, "Holy, holy friggin' shit," like this. But it is like,

01:35:58   "Oh, wow, that's cool. I could see now what you're talking about." Once you let me try those on,

01:36:03   everything you had said good about them made a lot more sense to me than I believed beforehand.

01:36:09   Right.

01:36:09   But it still is more of a bottom-up approach. Let's start with the reasonable.

01:36:12   Yeah, they're single function, just like, MetaQuest is essentially single function as well. It's a

01:36:17   gaming device and, yeah. But we're... So, I think that strategic, complete opposite approach, do we

01:36:26   start with $500 devices and grind it out year over year to make those $500 devices better, or do we

01:36:34   start with a $4,000 device and try to bring it down to a reasonable price? Let's see how it goes.

01:36:42   Kind of feel like Apple has more experience with hardware platforms, and so not just my personal

01:36:49   fandom of Apple's products, I just kind of feel like you're betting on a proven winner if you

01:36:55   think Apple's strategy is better. But where I feel like people aren't even talking about it is that

01:37:00   Meta doesn't have any kind of ecosystem like this of their own web browser, their own notes app,

01:37:08   their own email. How do you get your email on this thing? How do you get your email accounts into it?

01:37:13   Yeah. No, they're not thinking of that at all. Even their own user account system in their own

01:37:19   gaming device ecosystem is pretty broken, as is Microsoft's. Google's is probably the furthest

01:37:26   along in terms of tying your user account into different spaces, not necessarily different

01:37:32   hardware, but it transports from platform to platform, from site to site. There's something

01:37:40   that Google knows about you as a person that is very transportable, but Meta doesn't have that.

01:37:45   Microsoft tries, but really spectacularly, clumsily fails.

01:37:49   Yeah, Google is definitely the closest, but it's hard for me to... And again, maybe it's my bias

01:37:56   because I don't like Google's style of such things. I just don't. I don't like Google Keep as a notes

01:38:04   app. It doesn't fit with my brain. And Apple Notes isn't my very ideal of a notes app. I tried making

01:38:12   my ideal of a notes app 10 years ago with Vesper. I mean, I have strong opinions on notes apps, but

01:38:16   notes is a lot closer to the way I think a notes app should work than Google Keep is. I personally

01:38:25   don't like Google Chrome as much. And putting aside the rendering engines, I just don't like

01:38:29   the interface to it as much as Safari. And the further you get into the ecosystem, the more...

01:38:36   Like people who use the actual Gmail interface, when you type gmail.com into a desktop browser,

01:38:43   it doesn't look anything to me like the Gmail that you get on your phone when you open the Gmail app.

01:38:49   It looks like two totally different interfaces to it. Whereas Apple's mail looks like it's not

01:38:56   the Mac version shrunk to the iPhone, but it looks like a sibling product from the same designers

01:39:02   and that they, "Oh yes, this is what the phone version of this desktop email app would look like."

01:39:08   There's definitely design aesthetic and spiritual consistency across

01:39:14   products in the different platforms. And Apple Music and Apple TV. There's a reason why on the

01:39:22   home screen, the very top left position is the TV app. Oh, absolutely. Going back to the home screen,

01:39:28   something... I came across this the first time I was trying to add a contact in the Vision Pro,

01:39:36   and there is no contacts app. Right. If you look over to the left of the home screen, you've got

01:39:41   that little drawer that slides out and it's apps, people, and environments, which is essentially

01:39:46   things, people, and places. People, places, things. Apps is like functions, tools.

01:39:53   People, they just want... If you tap on that, you open up people and you just get a list of

01:40:00   people that you commonly communicate with, which is bizarre, but it's an interesting way of thinking

01:40:06   about it. This morning, my friend texted me a VCF, like a contact, like you can do, share a contact.

01:40:14   I opened in the Vision Pro and I tried to do anything with it. It wanted to save it as a file

01:40:21   in my files app. And then so I saved it as a file. And then when I went to open that file,

01:40:26   it was just like, "Congratulations, you have a .vcf file. I can't do anything with this."

01:40:32   So it's just like that people space in your home view tells you a lot about what VisionOS

01:40:43   prioritizes, I think. Do you think though that there's a chance that... Because this is where

01:40:49   you and I together sort of got the Apple Watch wrong, right? You and I both bought into when

01:40:57   it was debuted the communication features, the, "Oh, if you've got a sweetheart and you both have

01:41:03   an Apple Watch, you can share your pulse with your sweetheart as a sort of a remote gesture

01:41:11   of affection." Right. I remember, I think, walking down the street in San Jose, like just

01:41:17   dreaming big dreams about how that shared heartbeat was going to be the killer for the watch.

01:41:23   And it's funny now so many years later, and I don't even know if the feature's there anymore.

01:41:28   Maybe there's a way to get to it in messages, but nobody talks about it. But

01:41:31   I'm happy to just say, "Well, I was wrong." But I think Apple was wrong, and I think it sort of

01:41:39   comes as close to admitting that they were wrong. But I also think it was worth trying

01:41:43   on Apple's part, and I don't think it was foolish that we thought, "Hey, maybe there's something

01:41:48   there there." Right? Yeah. I mean, they were just trying to forge human connection into the

01:41:53   product, which is, that's great. But I wonder if it's that same desire to forge human connection

01:41:58   into the product that has made them make people as top level of a thing as apps and environments.

01:42:05   Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. I can kind of make, maybe this time,

01:42:11   they've got it, this time it's right that it is personal and it's worth having people there

01:42:16   so that you, that's how you start a FaceTime call. There is no FaceTime app either. You go to people,

01:42:22   find the person, and then it says, "Well, what do you want to do with Adam? You want to start

01:42:26   a FaceTime call?" "Yeah, I want to start a FaceTime call." "Okay, start a FaceTime call."

01:42:29   Or, "Do you want to start a voice call or something?" I guess you do.

01:42:33   Which essentially tells you that that's how Apple ties it into the iPhone, is that that part of the

01:42:39   product they're calling a communicator, right? Right. So, yeah, there's, so you can message

01:42:45   a person, FaceTime them, and then there's a dot, dot, dot where you can do more. You can email them,

01:42:50   get info, pin them. Right. That's Apple basically saying the vision is your OS for the people in

01:42:58   your life. Right. It's how you make those outward connections. And so that's kind of cool. I mean,

01:43:04   again, tying it into the ecosystem, they're assuming that people are going to be using

01:43:09   this thing, at the same time as they're using it as like a Mac for multi-window, multi-APIC

01:43:16   workstation, they're going to be using it as a communications device, which I'm fully on board

01:43:21   with. We've been doing it for two hours now, and it feels as natural as anything. Yeah, it does.

01:43:27   I guess it's good that the Newton exists in the sense that it, I think it's still, I think there's

01:43:36   very few people, just because it was so long ago, that there's very few people at Apple left who

01:43:41   were there for the Newton, but it's a humbling platform because, you know, there's no other way

01:43:48   to describe it than as a failed platform. It was around for a couple of years. And I know that the

01:43:52   people who were the staunchest aficionados of the Newton platform are, I'm sure some of them listen

01:43:59   to my podcast, and I'm sure they're angry right now. And they still blame Steve Jobs that it wasn't

01:44:04   that the Newton failed. It was that, you know, when they had to cut costs to save the company

01:44:09   from bankruptcy, they cut it when Jobs came back, and maybe he was biased against it because it

01:44:16   wasn't his creation. You know, and I think there probably is something to that, that,

01:44:19   and the Newton had a lot of good things going for it. But where I'm going is, is this possible that

01:44:26   this vision headset will be the next Newton for the Apple? Fuck no. Like, I don't think that,

01:44:32   I think that's the wrong statement to make about this thing. You shared that Beeple tweet.

01:44:38   Why do you think there's no way that it's a Newton?

01:44:40   Because the Newton was so far ahead of its time. It was so constrained by the available tech at

01:44:46   the time that it could never have delivered on the promises of the product, right? This thing is not

01:44:52   ahead of its time. It took until this time to make this product real. And to me, it's spectacularly

01:44:58   successful at it, even as hobbled as it may be in vision, in version one, this product is exactly

01:45:06   of its time.

01:45:07   Yeah. I would say like the defining, what does it, what does that mean? What does it need to

01:45:13   be ready right now? It needs super high resolution displays and that's, it has these, right?

01:45:20   Everybody's impressed by the visual resolution. I think it needs really killer sound. I think even

01:45:28   like I said, like it's called vision pro everybody's most blown away by the visual experience,

01:45:32   but I think that the spatial audio either through the built-in speakers or with AirPods that do

01:45:38   spatial audio, it, the spatiality for lack of, I don't even know if that is a word, but you know,

01:45:45   it, it is important. I think that the stability of the placement of 3D objects where they stay

01:45:57   exactly in place, not like, Oh, if you leave a window in your kitchen and then you walk out of

01:46:04   the room and come back and it's, ah, it's like almost in the exact same space, but it's like two

01:46:09   inches. No, it is literally to the inch in the exact space where you left it. I think it needs

01:46:15   that. I think that's actually important to the experience that these things don't flicker. They

01:46:19   don't wobble a little bit in space. They are as a stable in three-dimensional space and it needs

01:46:27   pretty good input. You know, it needs good enough finger gesture recognition. They've got all of

01:46:34   that, right? That's the sort of baseline. I can't think of anything else that it really needs. I

01:46:38   mean, I guess you could say it needs a fast enough CPU or I guess that R1 chip is the sort of

01:46:45   breakthrough. The fact that it has this incredibly low latency from the cameras to the screens in

01:46:54   front of your eyes that reduces the nausea inducing latency of other headsets and makes it

01:47:01   more comfortable for some people just to even use for five minutes and then for other people just to

01:47:07   be able to use like for this, what are we on to two hours, 15 minutes of this call, something like

01:47:12   that. It needs all of that. And the Newton didn't have that, right? The Newton, I would, I've always

01:47:18   thought the big glaring thing in hindsight was that the Newton never should have come out before

01:47:23   wireless networking. If they waited for wi-fi, that would have been eight or nine years, seven

01:47:29   or eight years, something like that. They would have had to wait for a long time. But what was

01:47:34   the point in hindsight? I know I just said that I spent my freshman year in my college dorm using

01:47:39   a Macintosh computer without a network, but there was a lot that I actually, I felt like I was doing

01:47:45   stuff and making and creating stuff. Whereas the Newton wasn't really a creative device. You didn't

01:47:50   make artwork on it. You didn't- No, it was a PDA, but it had terrible handwriting recognition. So

01:47:56   the input sucked. And it was the butt of every joke. You know, the naysayers remark though would

01:48:04   be, well, didn't we just complain about the onscreen keyboard in this thing? Yeah, but that's,

01:48:09   the onscreen keyboard is one of four different input methods for communicating into the thing.

01:48:15   Whereas with the Newton, it was the pen was the only one. Yeah, exactly.

01:48:19   You couldn't just hit a microphone button and dictate to it to get around the handwriting

01:48:24   recognition. Yeah. And remember that the General Magic device had internet connectivity or, you

01:48:29   know, cellular connectivity too. So I don't know that that's necessarily what felled the Newton.

01:48:36   And I know Palm, and before Palm came out with the trios, right? That was what they called the

01:48:44   cell phone ones, which was, it did, it was a huge leg up for the Palm platform because then they had

01:48:51   some networking. But using this device and seeing a couple people, not even trying to troll or shit

01:48:58   posts, but just sort of tossing it out as a spitball, like it's just a mental exercise. Well,

01:49:03   debate the side that this might be the next Newton in Apple's history. And just think about it.

01:49:10   It makes me realize it comes to that ecosystem question, or topic that you had,

01:49:16   where this product, in addition to having all that hardware tech in a, I would say,

01:49:24   you could say it's too expensive, but at least if you've already bought it, and it's in your budget,

01:49:28   it's all there. The thing that this product has that the Newton didn't is this incredibly rich,

01:49:36   broad shared ecosystem with the other devices in your life. And at the time the Newton came out,

01:49:43   the only other product Apple had was the Mac. And you did technically, if you, you know,

01:49:50   there was a, what was it called? Like Newton Connection Kit or something like that. Did

01:49:53   you have a Newton? I didn't. It's not even worth Googling. I guess I'll make a note and put it in

01:49:59   the show notes. Well, I had a Palm, which is a close enough comparison. And there was like Palm

01:50:04   Sync, which was always a huge pain in the ass. But that's how they tried to leap over the,

01:50:11   cross the bridge of the ecosystem. So it was an early proof of concept.

01:50:16   So there was some kind of rudimentary way that you could get your contacts from your Mac into

01:50:22   the Newton, but the Mac didn't even have an address book at the time, right? That was from an era

01:50:28   on the Mac where Microsoft and Apple as the two big platform makers sort of demurred from

01:50:38   providing lots of first-party applications. You'd cut open the seal on your brand new PC or Mac,

01:50:45   and it didn't really have much on it that did anything out of the box, right?

01:50:50   They had chess, but they didn't have contacts until it was done.

01:50:54   And the Mac didn't even have chess, I don't think. That was a next thing, right?

01:50:59   Oh, I thought the Mac had chess for some reason.

01:51:01   I don't think so. I don't think in the classic era. I think that all came over from the next

01:51:05   year. I don't even think it had a game. It had the puzzle game. The 16 squares where you slide

01:51:11   the numbers around in a rudimentary text editor just for reading read me files and stuff like

01:51:17   that. So there wasn't any kind of way, even if you were a diehard Mac user and you're like, okay,

01:51:23   I'm all in and now I've spent all this money to buy a Newton communicator. Where's all my Mac stuff?

01:51:30   There were none of the apps were the same. There was no shared data infrastructure. So even

01:51:36   forgetting that it didn't have wireless networking, even with a cable, you weren't really sharing

01:51:40   a foundational layer of ecosystem apps like a note app, right? You just didn't have any of this.

01:51:48   Whereas all of this is already there on day one with vision and it's all this stuff. How

01:51:53   many notes here? I'm going to look at my notes. I have to turn my head. I have 1,851 notes in

01:52:00   Apple notes. Yeah. I use bear, but they're going back to like 2011 or something like that. Yeah.

01:52:06   So how many, you know, you've probably got like a thousand notes, thousands already on day one,

01:52:11   right? And they're just there. You just log in with your iCloud account, which you didn't even

01:52:16   have to do, right? I just brought your phone up to your thing. Oh, you're, this is your phone and

01:52:22   it's nearby. Okay. We'll just, we'll get your wifi password from your phone. We'll get your iCloud

01:52:28   account from your phone and this stuff will just start piling in. Yeah. And we know it's you because

01:52:34   of your Iris, which is equally crazy or whatever it is because of the, you know, your eyeball.

01:52:40   It's so easily overlooked because you just think, well, it's just a notes app. And of course the

01:52:46   notes app that the platform maker makes should sync across your various devices. And of course

01:52:51   your bookmarks and your browsing history should sync across devices. And if you get a new email

01:52:58   address, like you changed the sandwich.co instead of whatever, you know, sandwich video, you guys

01:53:04   change your domain at some point. Yeah. We're sandwich.co. Yeah. We are sandwich.co. And so

01:53:08   at some point in the last couple of years, I changed your email address and my contact,

01:53:13   and I only had to do it once. And on all my devices, I have your new email address, right?

01:53:18   You think, well, of course it should work like that. But I think that there is,

01:53:22   if you really think about how much work that is under our feet for this ecosystem, it is,

01:53:28   it's mind boggling, right? And I don't think a company like Metta, even though they're big

01:53:34   and have lots of money and lots of engineers, I don't even think they're trying to catch up.

01:53:38   No, for there was a time in the Oculus days when Metta was going to make it so that in order to use

01:53:45   their VR, you had to have a Facebook account basically. And man, I was so pissed off about

01:53:53   that because I'd already deactivated mine long ago. They corrected that decision and now you

01:53:59   can just have a, you know, an account for the Metta Quest that's not connected. But even that,

01:54:04   I think they were like edging towards that. They were suggesting that they were going to try to

01:54:08   build an ecosystem that was all tied together so that they could advertise to you everywhere equally.

01:54:14   But it's not happening. And there's just so much smart, brilliant building going on in the Apple

01:54:23   world that in Apple space, you could almost call it, that ties it all together. And I think just

01:54:29   like moving down the line. So this is what I've got on my list, Mac, iPhone, iPad, watch AirPods,

01:54:35   Apple TV, and a whole bot, right? These are all the main core products. So moving on down to iPad,

01:54:43   really you've got, what you've got is a small screen and a media device, like a small screen

01:54:48   entertainment media consumption window. And I mean, that's here, that's here in VisionOS.

01:54:57   It is that if the one of the pillars of defining this, the Vision Pro is it as a media consumption

01:55:05   device. It's a huge screen media consumption device. Remember back in the days when we would

01:55:11   discuss whether Apple was ever going to make its own TV screen, right? Well, they just did.

01:55:16   And it is enormous. And that's really fun. That's a great fun way to spend time thinking about this

01:55:24   thing. And it's one of the things that people bring up the most often is like, "Oh, wow,

01:55:28   I don't know if I'll do any work with it, but I know I'm going to watch movies in this thing."

01:55:32   Pete: I tried to touch on that in my review, right? Where I really do think this is a credible

01:55:40   $3500 device if it's just for watching movies and including those 3D immersion type things. And

01:55:47   you've got to be, as a professional filmmaker, it has to be so, like, I don't think my writing

01:55:55   reads better if you do it in Vision Pro in a big 10-foot safari window, right?

01:56:01   JS What's your favorite, just as an aside, what's your favorite way for people to read your writing?

01:56:08   Like what platform? JS I don't really have an opinion on that.

01:56:12   Pete Okay. JS But I guess,

01:56:14   you know, it shows how shameful it is that I don't really have an iPhone optimized layout for the

01:56:24   site. But I would guess maybe the iPhone or the iPad, you know. I guess the iPad, I would say,

01:56:30   would be the best way. If you said, you know, if I was heading off to prison for five years and I had

01:56:39   a goodbye post, you see in five years, what's the best way to read that? I guess I'd say the iPad,

01:56:46   because it's a little more intimate than the Mac, you know.

01:56:49   JS It's the in-between device, I think.

01:56:51   Pete Yeah, and it doesn't quite feel like trying to gulp down water dying of thirst

01:56:57   through a tiny little straw like the iPhone screen can be for a long article, right? Like sometimes,

01:57:03   even I who write long articles will sometimes look at a long article on my phone and be like,

01:57:09   "I'll save that for later." But for watching videos, this is flabbergastingly good. I mean,

01:57:17   just unbelievable. And it makes me realize, like in a way that the groundwork of the ecosystem of

01:57:27   these apps was there for this platform to launch with already there, where you've already got mail

01:57:34   messages, notes, Safari, and all of your core apps. One thing I've noticed watching like YouTube

01:57:41   and stuff on this device is it really makes it obvious why it's worth it's been worth for years

01:57:49   now shooting 4K video. Because to me, where 4K video really shines over the last two weeks isn't

01:57:57   watching it on a 4K TV, where it's just sort of one to one. It's when you make a giant window here

01:58:05   that's actually too big for 4K, right? You're actually stretching beyond the limits of,

01:58:13   you know, ideally for a window the size that I've made most of my YouTube videos in Christian

01:58:18   Selig's Juno app should be shot in 8K, right? It's an 8K-sized virtual window in front of me,

01:58:25   but people aren't shooting 8K yet. They're shooting 4K. But because it's 4K and not 1080p,

01:58:31   it looks way better than 1080p, right? And it looks better even stretched to the point of a

01:58:37   bit of graininess and noise by making the 4K so big, it's the best 4K has ever looked. And it's

01:58:45   like, I can't believe it. I really did. Did you watch Casey Neistat's video? I know it's got like

01:58:51   six million views. It was my favorite of all the videos, I think. Because he expressed the ineffable

01:59:01   somehow, right? But some of the just random shots, they weren't setups, you know? It was like he's

01:59:07   out in Times Square. He just decided to wear the thing with a battery pack to keep it going all

01:59:11   day. And he and a photographer, he was just walking around Times Square. One chance to get

01:59:17   the shot. But looking at it, it was like, they just put this together in like 24 hours, and it

01:59:25   looks unbelievable. Yeah, well, I think that the main takeaway of that video, that he says at the

01:59:32   end that he wasn't even expecting to get out of it, because he was just going to go out into Times

01:59:36   Square as a joke, as like a goof, as a stunt. I think that he was able to, in capturing that

01:59:42   experience, he was able to communicate the concept of scale in the Vision Pro, which,

01:59:48   the, as we've talked about during this call, that's what the device is about. It's about putting

01:59:54   windows bigger than you could ever have access to in your office, on your desktop, in your laptop.

02:00:01   And he went to the largest scale place of the largest city in the country, and where the

02:00:08   screens are enormous and on the sides of buildings. And he was like, "Fuck you, I can do this too."

02:00:12   And he put his screens everywhere, and it was like, that is what this device is. And I think

02:00:16   it was breathtaking for him as he was riding around on a skateboard. And he just sold that

02:00:21   to the audience, and I loved it. Because in a way, I think part of what made his video so genius

02:00:26   is you're definitely not supposed to go out and about in daily life with this thing. That's not

02:00:31   what it's intended to be. And he emphasized that you're, and like I say over and over again,

02:00:35   your windows remain static in space. And so when you see these videos of most people goofing while

02:00:42   they're crossing the street while wearing a Vision Pro or they're coming out of the mall wearing it,

02:00:46   and they're making these gestures with their hands as they walk, that's all fake. It's obviously fake

02:00:52   because none of the windows in, almost none. It's like there's a couple that stay hovering in front

02:00:57   of you. When you connect AirPods, it'll say, "Hey, do you want to connect these AirPods?"

02:01:01   That window will stay as you're walking, will stay an equal distance in front of your face.

02:01:07   But 99% of the interface stays behind as you walk. So all the people making these videos where

02:01:14   they're pretending to gesture at things while they walk across the street are faking it. Whereas

02:01:19   he mentioned that. He was just being completely honest. And by wearing it in a place where it's

02:01:26   not really meant to be used, Times Square, New York, and showing the footage of what he was seeing,

02:01:33   it's somehow the wrongness of using it there showed off the amazingness of what it's capable

02:01:41   of doing. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you kind of briefly mentioned it, but as a tool for

02:01:48   filmmakers, for visual storytellers, the opportunities here are so exciting. I think

02:01:55   hopefully most of the industry is thinking in this way, but not only are we now thinking of telling

02:02:01   big scale stories because we've got access to these big scale screens,

02:02:06   but telling stories in three dimensions, we now have access to in an intriguing way that most

02:02:13   people don't want to put 3D glasses on. But if they're already in this thing, they're going to

02:02:17   want to see stories in stereo. But also for me as a technology storyteller, telling tech stories

02:02:25   about this tech, about this space is so much more compelling than a shot of the iPhone over and over

02:02:32   again, over the shoulder. I've been stuck in the rectangles, in the boxes for 15 years of doing

02:02:38   this now. And finally we get to put this stuff in floating in space the way we've been trying to do

02:02:44   it for all these years. How many times do you think you've composited fake iPhone screens?

02:02:49   Oh my God, hundreds or maybe thousands. At some point, one of my friend, Tim Karas,

02:02:54   who was doing a lot of those early comps with me, we were doing a green screen app for the phone,

02:02:59   and we were going to make just a compilation reel of all of the sandwich over the shoulder device

02:03:04   shots. But yeah, that technology is so squainty, the quaint at this point, those small screen

02:03:11   experiences are so quaint relative to this. And it's like I know YouTube started as a desktop

02:03:18   website and however big a display you have connected to your Mac or PC was how big you

02:03:23   could make a YouTube video. It just feels like though, coincidental or not, I think YouTube

02:03:34   exploded in popularity when mobile exploded in popularity. There was some kind of fit between

02:03:41   seven to nine minute video short films and what you could want to watch on your phone

02:03:49   while you're sitting on the subway or while you're waiting in line at the grocery store or wherever

02:03:55   else. And it was fantastic for popularity and it's made YouTube a world changing platform.

02:04:05   But creatively, like from your perspective, it does sort of come back to the David Lynch argument.

02:04:12   Don't watch my fucking movie on your fucking cell phone, right? Like I don't, it's meant to be

02:04:18   looked at at a big beautiful screen. And now it's like we've gone through the looking glass

02:04:23   and these anybody, any kid with a phone that has a, and every phone you can buy from the

02:04:31   last few years has a really good camera on it. And you can make movies that are movie theater

02:04:38   size and look good movie theater size. So some of us at Sandwich got invited to meet with the Apple

02:04:44   pro team because they wanted to talk to us about shooting real professional video in log space with

02:04:51   the iPhone 15 pro. And it was a transformative meeting for me because I was not thinking in

02:04:57   that direction. We've always used the high-end digital cameras to shoot our commercials.

02:05:01   I'm so glad we, though they invited us cause we started doing it just last week. We shot our first

02:05:06   like legit startup, commercial sandwich video with multiple iPhones. And it looks fantastic. And you

02:05:14   using some of the pro capture apps, either black magic or, you know, Sebastian's got Kino coming

02:05:20   out that allow you to capture these images in like really high resolution and log space.

02:05:27   So you can do a lot more with color and post and it gives everyone access to being filmmakers,

02:05:34   whether professional or not, and making true films that is incredible. And it's not only incredible,

02:05:40   just on its own for making video, but it's incredible for this device too. It's incredible

02:05:45   that we're going to be able to capture in the phone, watch these things in vision in large,

02:05:52   enormous scale screens. And what a time, what a world.

02:05:56   I've, there's just people whose work I've never seen on a big screen before. Really. I mean,

02:06:03   I guess you might be one of them, right? It's like, you know, and I've watched a lot of your

02:06:09   videos over the years, but I've never seen one maybe a handful of times on a TV and never on

02:06:17   anything bigger than a TV. And now I can watch everything you've ever shot on a legit movie

02:06:23   theater size screen. Right. Oh man. That's exciting. It's emotionally so different and

02:06:29   so much more engaging. Right. And it's, it's just terribly exciting as a consumer of video.

02:06:37   I can't even imagine how exciting it is as, as a filmmaker. Yeah, it is. I watched a star Wars. I

02:06:43   watched the last Jedi in the Disney theater in that experience. That was really great for me.

02:06:50   Yeah. It's super, super exciting. So moving down the line that we've got the watch next on my list.

02:06:56   All right. And I actually think that like for when I got to the watch, I was thinking, okay,

02:07:02   well there's nothing in common with the watch vision pro has nothing in common with the watch,

02:07:06   but I was absolutely wrong because first of all, that the home view is very visually similar to

02:07:12   the home view of, of the, of the watch home view, but also just the, the hard, the, the design,

02:07:19   the hardware design, you've got the digital crown in common, which, which is kind of fascinating to

02:07:26   me that those are the only two Apple products that work the same way. And also basically if you take

02:07:31   the light seal off of the device, and even if you want to take the straps off too, and just look at

02:07:36   it or hold it in your hand as a piece of hardware, it's actually pretty reminiscent of the Apple

02:07:43   watch in its roundness and like the seamless joining of the, of the glass and the metal.

02:07:49   So yeah, that's, that's all I would say about that. Otherwise there's not a lot of crossover.

02:07:55   Yeah. All right. Next on your list. AirPods. I mean, really spatial audio and the idea that

02:08:02   audio can be augmented reality. Yep. And I've been saying that argument, making that argument,

02:08:09   at least since the noise canceling AirPods came out that they're Apple's first AR product.

02:08:14   Yep. But using this feels like seamlessly stepping from one platform to another without

02:08:22   even worrying about the gap or any kind of it's like, Oh yeah, this is like AirPods plus plus.

02:08:27   You know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's so usually they say augmented reality is when you're just

02:08:33   adding a layer of digital on top of the real, but I think that the vision pro is an augmented

02:08:40   reality cause it's actually replacing it's reproducing reality. So it's more like virtual

02:08:43   reality. I think, I think that's the technical definition, but the AirPods do the same thing.

02:08:49   They reproduce this, the sound reality of your world and they use that to make it feel transparent.

02:08:56   Yep. And I'm just playing around. I don't know what you can see in my persona. I'm playing

02:09:01   around with my digital crown. I've spent most ever since we started talking about whether I was on

02:09:06   the moon or in my, in my basement, I've settled into the moon and I just dialed it back to my

02:09:14   basement and I realized again, I'll just say the same thing again. It's just uncanny how intimate

02:09:21   you sound when I'm dialed out to the moon and then it's not trying to bounce your voice off

02:09:26   these walls in this room. It is it's intimate really. I honestly, this is something I'm

02:09:35   just spitballing here, but you, I mean, just to break the fourth wall a little bit, you and I are

02:09:42   close personal friends, right? You're like a dear friend. And I don't know that I would like doing

02:09:49   this if with a guest on my show who I don't consider as dear a friend, you know what I mean?

02:09:54   And I know most of the people I have on a regular basis are my friends. And so most of them it would

02:10:00   work, but you know, I occasionally have special guests on who just have a new product out or

02:10:05   something like this. I almost feel like talking like this to somebody for two hours is too much,

02:10:10   right? It's like being, you and I can get in a car together and go on a four hour drive and we'll

02:10:16   talk each other's ears off the whole time about this same stuff. It's like, but if you were with

02:10:20   a stranger, you don't want to be caught in a car with them for 20 minutes.

02:10:24   No, I wonder if there's other ways of creating more distance if it's an uncomfortable intimacy

02:10:29   in this context, whether, I don't know, I almost like, to me it was almost fun to like the idea

02:10:36   of sharing, because I have my MacBook camera on me looking like a complete dork with big goggles on

02:10:41   and in front of a microphone. And I almost like want that in the corner of my, you know,

02:10:48   my FaceTime window. So you can see like, oh, it's actually not that intimate. I'm actually just

02:10:52   sitting, I'm a real guy in a real place and probably have food in my beard.

02:10:57   [Laughter]

02:10:58   No, you don't because you're an idealized version of you, you're a persona, right?

02:11:05   And I know that everybody's slagging on personas, but I'm really enjoying this call.

02:11:10   I am, and I feel like it's you. And I do feel like there's this other aspect where it's like, man,

02:11:16   you can just wake up and you don't have to comb your hair. You don't have to do anything. You

02:11:21   don't have to worry about, you know, oh, I didn't even take a shower. I've got the same shirt on I

02:11:25   had on yesterday. Well, it doesn't matter because your persona has the shirt on and when you captured

02:11:30   your persona.

02:11:31   Yeah. I joined a Zoom call, a client Zoom call with like five members of my team, three members

02:11:36   of the client side. And I joined it in Zoom on the Vision Pro, but I kept my camera off

02:11:41   for almost the whole meeting until like the last two minutes. And then I was like, okay,

02:11:46   let's try this. Let's see, let's experiment, see what happens. And we all know what it's like that

02:11:52   first initial shock of seeing a digital persona in a flat window is like, take it away. But then you

02:11:59   move past it very quickly.

02:12:01   Yeah. All right. Next on your list, you have Apple TV.

02:12:04   Apple TV. Yes. I mean, that's pretty clear. It's Apple TV used to be the biggest screen,

02:12:10   big screen media browser. And it's now there for the communal experience of watching media.

02:12:16   I'm very excited when vision becomes more prevalent because then it can become more

02:12:21   communal as well. But that's what a TV is. It's for there to be an object in your space that

02:12:28   people can sort of like look at at the same time and enjoy the same entertainment.

02:12:33   And then the last one is HomePod, but that's almost not even, it's same as spatial audio.

02:12:41   It adjusts itself to the physics of your space and it's also a Siri client. So I guess that's

02:12:49   how it ties in. But yeah, no, all sort of laddering up to this idea that the vision is really,

02:12:55   it's not its own thing. It's sort of everything all at once. It's a container for every Apple product.

02:13:01   Yeah, it kind of is. I'm not envisioning a future and who knows, maybe we are,

02:13:08   especially when they, 15 years from now, 20 years from now, when these things really are

02:13:13   just like glasses. Maybe I wake up in the morning, I put my glasses on and I've got this OS in front

02:13:21   of me until I go to bed, take them off, put them on my nightstand and that's when they charge.

02:13:26   I don't know. But if me and Amy both wear the glasses, then we don't even need a TV.

02:13:31   We are having a shared experience next to each other on a couch and we're not isolated with

02:13:36   goggles. We just have glasses on, but we can see the same movie or TV show. Maybe, but even if that

02:13:44   never comes to pass, I feel like there's something about the fact that this does encompass all of

02:13:50   those products. It really does. And it's right now, it's in a very personal way that's just for

02:13:56   you, but it's like, man, this is sort of a better version of all of those things.

02:14:00   Yeah. I think where it gets to eventually, even in the glasses form, which I believe that the glasses

02:14:07   form is still an intermediary step to its final, to the end game. Let's say it does get miniaturized

02:14:13   into glasses that you can put on and take off. It will be a communal product where we can both

02:14:18   experience the same digital reality. But past that, I think it's jacking right into your

02:14:24   central nervous system and making you see these pixels that are not physically in any form.

02:14:30   I think lenses go away, screens go away. And what's interesting about the Vision Pro version one

02:14:37   is to me, it's showing us an early version of that end game where pixels are just in our space.

02:14:44   Digital stuff is just in our physical space. And that's the world that we're rushing to

02:14:49   that's 20 years away. Yeah. We've been talking long enough that where we just,

02:14:54   I wasn't quite sure what happened to me, but we must have crossed the sunset boundary here

02:14:59   in Philadelphia because the moon went pitch black. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got an environment

02:15:05   set on automatic. I've got my environment sent to automatically switch between light mode and

02:15:10   dark mode, which when you're in an artificial outdoor environment, which I guess the moon

02:15:14   qualifies as it means it gets dark. And yeah, this happened to me last night where my environment

02:15:20   just shut off completely. And I'm not talking about nighttime. I'm talking about blackness.

02:15:25   There was a void and I don't, it was a, it was a hardware hiccup. The hardware has only crashed on

02:15:30   me once, but the software has crashed a few times. Yeah. Just like my windows were there and it was

02:15:36   blackness behind and it was really unnerving. We still need the real world, man. Yeah. I don't

02:15:45   know that I've ever had the hardware crash, but I've definitely had it. I don't know where to place

02:15:49   the blame, but there was one time during the review process where I had to figure out how to

02:15:55   restart it. And I guess the answer is, so you know about force quitting, right? Yeah. You hold down

02:15:59   both buttons for four seconds and you get a force quit menu. Yep. That's just like the Mac version.

02:16:04   It's really neat. Yeah. I mean, if, if you think force quitting is cool. I think it's cool. I think

02:16:09   it's very useful. But if you just keep pressing them for like eight seconds or 10 seconds, it

02:16:16   restarts the whole system. Yeah. You get this, don't you get a slider to like, yeah, to shut down.

02:16:21   And if you keep pressing the two buttons though, it'll do it automatically even without the slider,

02:16:27   like if it gets so locked up that it won't let you slide. Yeah. Right. But the, the way I restarted

02:16:32   it during my review process, I didn't figure that out. I just pulled the power cable out.

02:16:36   Yeah. But yeah. But the fact that some of the apps can be buggy and need to be forced quit to me,

02:16:45   it's just part of honestly part of the fun. It's early game. Yeah. It's early days. It's and yeah,

02:16:51   exactly. It's every time there's like a little hiccup like that, you just get to see a little

02:16:56   glimpse of where it's going to be, where it's going to improve. Well, this was a wonderful

02:17:00   conversation. What a great idea. This was wonderful for me. I was really looking forward to this.

02:17:04   Like I said, in my text, I texted to you one of the, this, this time happens like what,

02:17:10   once when a new platform is introduced once that redefines computing once every what decade and a

02:17:16   decade and a half. And so this first, these first days of capturing this experience in a way that

02:17:23   we might remember it in the future. Right. So special. I never want to forget this. Yeah.

02:17:30   And I'd never, there's nobody I'd rather do that with than you, John. So thank you very much.

02:17:34   Well, thank you very much, Adam. That was very nice. All right. I will also thank our two sponsors

02:17:38   of the show, our good friends at Squarespace and Trade Coffee. You can build a website

02:17:43   with one of them and you can fill yourself with caffeine from the other one. I'll let you figure

02:17:49   out which sponsor was which. Thanks, Adam.