394: ‘An Impossible Balcony’, With Matthew Panzarino

0:00:00What do you think? It's like talking to a bug. I think that's what Ben said. I did the same thing

0:00:06for dithering when we recorded last night. So I don't record video for this show, so nobody knows

0:00:13exactly what's going on here, but for the recording in this web-based app I use StreamYard, there's a

0:00:19video and I can see Matthew and Matthew can see me and I'm... Well I could see, I could see someone.

0:00:26I can see someone. Yeah. Now do you have, you don't because it doesn't know that I'm there

0:00:34so it doesn't have the eyes on, right? It doesn't have eyesight. No, exactly. And Ben was thrown off by that too.

0:00:41And it reminded me last night while I was like halfway through, well I wasn't halfway through

0:00:49done writing, but I was halfway through whatever my process is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Halfway through a

0:00:56thinking about it. But it did serve to remind me that part of the, I would just say problem with

0:01:04eyesight is that you on the inside have no idea when it's on, what it's on. You don't know what

0:01:12people on the outside are seeing. And that's, it's just a really weird thing that you don't know what

0:01:21other people see on your face. I don't know that there's any experience in the world quite like it.

0:01:27Well I mean maybe having some food in your teeth, right? Yeah, yeah. Like you had no idea that

0:01:32something was stuck in your teeth and somebody's, "Hey you gotta think," you're like, "Oh my god, I had no idea."

0:01:36All right, hold on a second here. I'm gonna take my headphones off first and then then the Vision Pro.

0:01:41Hold on. Okay. It's like Clark Kent taking off his glasses. My headphones even fit better now.

0:01:50Well, of course, I didn't invite you until yesterday. But I'd been thinking

0:01:54for months that I would like to have you on for this episode of the show.

0:02:00And that's just standard procedure. So my first, I'm sure you have a lot of questions

0:02:07for me, but my first question for you is, do you have FOMO? Yeah, of course, of course. How could you not?

0:02:15I mean, you know, it's sort of I knew that this is the deal. I went into it with eyes open, but when

0:02:20the time comes, it's always, you know, it's always kind of a bummer. I mean, I definitely think I would

0:02:25have had less FOMO. And we'll see come September, but like if this is a new iPhone, some great upgrades,

0:02:31whatever, to an iPhone, that's an existing category that I've covered a lot and thought about a lot.

0:02:37But as a new category device, it would have been nice to kind of, because I've been following,

0:02:42as you have, following this kind of journey of Apple's trembling towards spatial computing for

0:02:48six, seven, eight years. And so it would have been nice to kind of like get into the first

0:02:53review cadre and have a chance to check it out. But at the same time, I actually got a good night's

0:02:57sleep last night, John. And I woke up and I had some coffee and I got, I was just, I read some

0:03:02reviews. It was actually, I was like, is this, is this how it feels? This is awesome. It's relaxing.

0:03:10I got about four hours of sleep. Yeah, I know that feel. I mean, it's always worse for me too,

0:03:19right? Because the West Coast time zone is the, it's the worst. Right. Right. How did you use to

0:03:24manage that with the TechCrunch CMS? Would you cue it up and set it for the embargo time or would you

0:03:33not trust the CMS's, hey, don't publish this till this, to the time and wait until two minutes before

0:03:40the embargo and then get it all queued up and hit what, which way would you do that? A variety of

0:03:45ways over the years, but I don't think I ever really felt completely happy or trusting of

0:03:51WordPress's scheduling. WordPress scheduling is notoriously flaky. And so most of the time it was

0:03:58a manual press of the button. Sometimes me sometimes up at 3 a.m. just pressing the button.

0:04:03And then I would literally just crank, go through all of the post review post published things.

0:04:08People have questions. I'm like, oh, let me add that. I'll add a bit about that. Right. And kind

0:04:13of update the article or just handling Q and A and all of that stuff. And then I would just crash,

0:04:18you know, in the early afternoon for a while. But a lot of times, yeah. All right.

0:04:24Right now when I'm recording this podcast. Yeah, exactly right now. But a lot of times,

0:04:32thankfully I had really great publishing partners, like my operations director,

0:04:35Henry Picklebet, who would be a champion and be like, hey, Henry, I've just turned in my last

0:04:40words of this. Could you please get this in ship shape? And he would handle getting all of that

0:04:45done and orderly and then published on time so that I could crash and then wake up and do the

0:04:49whole thing. So it was nice not to be a one man show in those moments. Well, my advantage is,

0:04:55of course, that I never quite make the embargo deadline. So I don't have to worry about trusting

0:05:01any kind of thing, but I would never trust it. I don't even think the way I don't even think I can

0:05:06forward publish things automatically the way I have movable type set up. It's so it just it just

0:05:12doesn't it just never even occurs to me. Right. And it's such a modern tool. Well, I'm sure they

0:05:21have it. I'm sure there's a way to do it. And I'm yeah. And I'm I'm sure I guarantee there's a way

0:05:27that I could jury rig it, which might be what I would do anyway. But I don't have to worry because

0:05:32I'm not sure I'm ever going to hit one of these deadlines. I did read I have not read others

0:05:37reviews extensively. I skim Joanna's and watched and saw that she actually wore it skiing. God

0:05:45bless Joanna Stern. Yes, I am so glad she didn't Sonny Bono herself. Yeah, no, she did great. And

0:05:52in some ways I'm glad I didn't do a review because I guarantee you I would have put cooking in my

0:05:57video. So I'm glad she did it. It's it's well executed. She did a wonderful job. And I was

0:06:02like, this is great because it was a really great example of how to use it. Yes. So yesterday I did

0:06:07something like and you know, little details that you know, it there's so much even when you when

0:06:12I write, I think I get wound up at like 7000 words and I left lots out. You just have to try things

0:06:21and then you sort of circle back to what do you think the main here's this big soup of all these

0:06:27experiences I had over the last week. What are the ones that actually make a story? What are the ones

0:06:32that are important? But Apple showed that right right at the key at the WWDC keynote when they

0:06:37announced this product, they showed a woman packing a suitcase for a trip while she's wearing it. And

0:06:42then she got like a FaceTime call while she's packing and answers it and is like, Oh, hello,

0:06:47you know, I'm packing for the trip or whatever. And I remember I think we were sitting next to

0:06:52each other. And I remember thinking, that seems like an odd context to wear this product. So

0:06:59yesterday, the dishwasher needed to be emptied. We had a bunch of dishes from the night before

0:07:03that needed to be put in. So I just did a whole bunch of that type of thing, emptied the dishwasher

0:07:10put them away, got a bunch of dirty dishes, loaded them in the dishwasher, hand washed a bunch of

0:07:16pots and pans that kind of don't go in the dishwasher. It was okay. And stuff like reaching

0:07:24out and grabbing a glass, you know, something where if you were a fraction of an inch off or

0:07:28something where you might knock it over that none of that stuff is a problem. Like, yeah, okay. The

0:07:34latency is not perfect. And you really notice it like you notice it. I wrote my review, even just

0:07:41walking at walking pace, it's enough motion to blur the image a little bit where it's not bad.

0:07:49And it's not for me at all nausea inducing, but it no longer looks like pass through vision.

0:07:55Whereas when you're you and you remember this from your times demoing it when you're just

0:08:00sitting down and looking ahead. The pass through is uncanny, right? But I'm not quite sure what the

0:08:07point is though of doing it for household chores right now. Cooking is different, right? Because

0:08:12cooking you can imagine, anybody can imagine somebody who doesn't cook much can imagine that

0:08:16doing a recipe type thing where you don't have to touch anything like an iPad.

0:08:23It seems like a huge use case. I mean, it really does.

0:08:27Chris Bounds Yeah. I mean, I think that sort of reference, right, I think is the most common way

0:08:36or common way to phrase it like an umbrella phrasing is if you have to reference something

0:08:43live, whether it's instructions or a tutorial video, as an example, like I could see it like,

0:08:48oh, you got to repair your iPhone. Just a close to home example. If you want to change the screen out

0:08:54on your iPhone, like having that hovering there while you have your hands on the device,

0:09:00both hands on the device, you're not playing and pausing. And you're not trying to say, wait, wait,

0:09:04what was that? You could just pinch your fingers to pause and then go right back to fiddling.

0:09:08There's some cases where I could see that that would happen. But yeah, the case where I was like,

0:09:13hold on, let me take a video call while I keep packing. That seemed like a little bit of a

0:09:17stretch. I don't know if that's the way I would go about that. Because I just don't see why I would

0:09:23ever have it on while I'm packing. Right. I might be listening to a podcast while I'm packing,

0:09:27but I would just put AirPods in and play it from my phone. And in some ways, while I was doing

0:09:34my kitchen cleanup with it, I actually was listening to a podcast I had Overcast,

0:09:40which is not a native vision app. It's, you know, it runs in what they call compatibility mode,

0:09:46which is the iPad app in some way. And Overcast works fine like that. In general, iPad apps,

0:09:53unchanged work really well. I mean, this was my impression from demos with Apple. It's what I've

0:10:00heard through the grapevine. And in the last week, it's been my experience of all the ways

0:10:05that Apple has enabled in recent years. Oh, you can run apps for this old platform on this new

0:10:13platform without changing it like iPhone apps on the iPad that are unadjusted. And sure, it looks,

0:10:19you know, it looks stupid because they're a little iPhone sized window on a big iPad screen, or you

0:10:24can run them in 2x mode where everything is way too big. And then the whole run iPad apps on Mac

0:10:32through catalyst without doing any kind of Mac-ification just sort of hit recompile and

0:10:39Xcode. This is the best of any of those. And if these were the only apps available, it would be

0:10:46a little surprising for Apple, but it would be credible. And in fact, a lot of the system apps

0:10:51from Apple are like that right now. Maps, books. I forget which other apps, maps and books,

0:10:58calendar, which seems like that's a surprising one to me, given that there's sort of a work

0:11:04productivity focus on like they have a native keynote app, but no native numbers or pages.

0:11:13They're very credible. They don't even even the way that iPad apps are kind of clearly iPad apps

0:11:19on Mac. These apps kind of look like they could be native if you didn't know how much cooler native

0:11:26apps look right. The look and feel of the of the truly native apps is the biggest tell. But here's

0:11:33where listening to podcasts with it, actually, it was almost too fancy because there's a spatiality

0:11:43I don't know if that's a word, but a spatialness specialness,

0:11:46a broadness to the soundscape. Right. But if audio is playing from an app window,

0:11:54you hear it in true spatial audio. So if I move the overcast window off to my left,

0:12:02which is where I had it, then while I'm in the kitchen emptying the dishwasher and whatever,

0:12:07the podcast sounds like it's coming from that window.

0:12:11Right. Whereas normally you would expect it to come in both ears wherever the window was.

0:12:15Yeah. Right. And I've listened to so many, I was going to say hundreds, but I don't know,

0:12:21maybe thousands of hours, I guess, thousands of hours of podcasts at this point in the aggregate.

0:12:27And I'm just like a thousand hours of podcasts listening, whereas I twist and turn my body,

0:12:34the audio doesn't have any spatial aspect to it. And so it just, I was just like, what is this?

0:12:42How can I turn this spatial audio off? And I don't think you can.

0:12:45Yeah. Yeah. It's almost seems like there should be like a stereo listening mode,

0:12:50you know, just to be simple. Yeah. Yeah. So adherence to the, like say adherence to

0:12:57their philosophy, right. Of the overall spatial computing philosophy. It's like over adherence to

0:13:03it. I think that will be the norm for a while, right? Because they sort of have to establish

0:13:07the rules and then pull back the rules. Like this is iOS seven all over again. It's like,

0:13:12establish the new rules and then we'll, Hey, we're going to pull back from the brink

0:13:16of all of those new rules to a place that feels good.

0:13:19Yeah. Conversely, I guess I'm skipping all over the place, but I, I had a three-way FaceTime call

0:13:26with two reps from Apple, somebody from Apple PR and someone from product marketing for vision.

0:13:32And this was a scheduled, but it was optional. You know how this is listeners don't, but they'll offer

0:13:37reviewers, something like that. And it's sort of, you also know this part it's like by the letter

0:13:44of the NDA I signed, I wasn't supposed to do a FaceTime call with the persona with anybody.

0:13:54I think, I think that was on the list of the NDA that I didn't really ignore, but like technically

0:13:58it would have been an NDA violation for me and Joanna and Neelay to FaceTime each other. But of

0:14:04course, of course we FaceTimed each other. And I think Neelay said that they all put them in their

0:14:10videos too. They were just like, come on, this is a joke. But as a courtesy, if you want to pretend

0:14:15and, and they don't assume that any of us reviewers are friends with each other, even though they know

0:14:20a bunch of us are friends with each other, but I guess they kind of have to offer it. So they,

0:14:24you know, offered a call and I took it, you know, I was like, I'll see what this is like.

0:14:28And so with three people in the call, the spatial aspect and everybody wearing Vision Pro,

0:14:34so everybody was a persona. The spatial audio aspect of it was one of the best parts,

0:14:41like the persona part we could, we could just go right into right now is really uncanny and kind

0:14:47of weird. But in a half hour call, five, six minutes in, you just get over the weirdness,

0:14:54you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know, it's like jumping into the...

0:14:56I mean, it just looks like one of those things that just is gonna get better, right? Over time,

0:15:02they'll get better at it. They'll render these things better and better until the point where

0:15:05we're like, oh, look at skin textures, all that stuff. It's all fine. But for now,

0:15:10I think the beta tag is well earned, right? The visual aspect anyway.

0:15:14Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, it, and in fact, if you even look, and maybe I'm reading a little

0:15:19too much into it, but I almost feel like they've done the Apple equivalent of underlining,

0:15:25bolding, and italicizing the word beta. They drew a circular pill around it and knock out

0:15:32the background like it's... Yeah, put a beta watermark across people's faces.

0:15:37Right. I almost feel like they wish, you know, like back in the day, I don't think developers

0:15:44really talk like this anymore. But like when I first started getting into app development,

0:15:50nerdery, there was alpha testing before beta testing, right? You do like alpha one,

0:15:57alpha two, and alphas were like pre-beta, whatever beta is to release software.

0:16:03Alphas were truly rickety, right? You expected them to break continuously, et cetera.

0:16:08Right. Alpha is like when you're building a house or an extension to the house and you just see the

0:16:13studs and the woodwork, right? And you can, and you just have to pretend there's a wall here,

0:16:18you know? Yeah. You do your walkthrough and you're like, "And we're going to put the vanity over here."

0:16:21It's just an empty wall. You see the trees outside. Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:24Yeah, exactly. And you see like empty coffee cups and cigarette butts from the workers in between.

0:16:31Dirty pictures drawn on the studs. Yeah.

0:16:33I almost feel like they wish that was still a term of art so they can call this alpha.

0:16:36Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:38You know, and in the past, they have occasionally,

0:16:44the software to support a feature of hardware has lagged behind. And I would say a canonical example,

0:16:53and you come to mind, it would be the first iPhones with portrait photography, right?

0:16:57Right. Because it was several weeks after launch. Yeah.

0:17:00Yeah. I forget which phone that was. Maybe it was like iPhone 7?

0:17:04iPhone 8? 7? No, because 8 came out alongside the 10. So I think it came out.

0:17:08Yeah, 7, I think. Yeah. So iPhone 7 introduced portrait

0:17:13photography and/or portrait mode. And they were like, "Coming later this fall."

0:17:19And then you got exclusive pre-release OS update or something and got to shoot with it.

0:17:27It was portrait. I know there was something that you got exclusive access to.

0:17:31Yeah. Yeah, I think portrait mode. And it was enabled. It was like 2016, right?

0:17:37Yeah. And then I think it was the 7 Plus. Remember?

0:17:41Yeah. It was only the pluses.

0:17:42Mm-hmm. The 7 Plus.

0:17:43And the 8 Plus. But yeah, it was. It was a few weeks after. And they put a special version on my

0:17:49review device of the OS, sent me a link and put a special version of it on. And then the software

0:17:56didn't ship even then for a couple of weeks after that. So I was seeing, I think, what they shipped

0:18:02or essentially what they shipped. But it was before they shipped it to the public and well

0:18:07after the phones were released and iOS was released for the new phones. Yeah.

0:18:11Right. And so clearly they had hoped to have it ready to ship on day one of customer delivery.

0:18:18It was a couple of months behind. And it's such a not big deal in hindsight that even you and I are

0:18:25struggling to remember exactly when it was. Right? In the moment, these things always seem shocking.

0:18:33Here's this flagship camera feature of this brand new flagship, most expensive iPhone ever made. And

0:18:41it's not even ready yet. Oh my God. What are we going to do? I can't wait. Can't wait.

0:18:44And I think it's kind of a sign of how much we have to worry about these days, John,

0:18:48that those things don't even seem to make a deal anymore. But yeah, yeah, true. And they could have

0:18:52done that here. Right. They could have said coming soon and just kept iterating. But I honestly think

0:18:58like, I think you mentioned in your review, which I read just before this as, as homework,

0:19:03but in your review, which is excellent, by the way, I think it's, it was really well done.

0:19:08You mentioned that they didn't, you feel that they didn't do the Memoji option, which would be just

0:19:15to put people's custom crafted, the Memoji that you create on your phone as the overlay, which

0:19:21they do already. You could do that. You send a message to somebody they've got enough tracking

0:19:26in there to give you a rough, like Muppet style conversation with a Memoji back and forth over

0:19:31iMessage or things like that. But they chose not to do that here. And your take is they didn't do

0:19:37that because in business contexts, it would be like, you'd be having some serious discussion

0:19:43about like the company's going under or we're laying you off or whatever. And you've got to

0:19:48be emoji flapping at you instead of like a person's face. Right. Right. Or I don't have a job

0:19:55job like that anymore, but I can imagine working in a certain, certainly just very large corporations

0:20:03where you often have meetings with people who are not, you would consider friends, right?

0:20:07Maybe you regularly have meetings with colleagues or managers who don't even know you until this

0:20:14meeting. Or external calls, right? Not even at the company, it's a sales call or a business call

0:20:18or whatever. Right. And I even use the word client, right? You've got a client call. Well,

0:20:23then you may not want to show up as a cartoon. I mean, in my world, I can't imagine a scenario

0:20:30where I couldn't just be a emoji, but I can certainly imagine and remember when I did have

0:20:34a job job that that time for me was before video conferencing was a thing, but I can imagine it

0:20:42now. And it would be like showing up to a real life meeting where everybody is wearing dress

0:20:50clothes or work clothes. It's Kermit behind the desk. Or like you've got like-

0:20:56Kermit the Frog. We're starting to see you can lead off.

0:20:59You've got like swim trunks and a tank top on. Flip flops.

0:21:03Yeah, that's true. Yeah. The context is, it's a context mismatch. Right? But you could imagine,

0:21:11though, a future of this where you could maybe toggle your Memoji off. That seems,

0:21:15if you're talking with your friends or FaceTiming with your friends, it seems like it would be fun

0:21:20to do that. And I would estimate that the beta is all about, "Hey, we're going to make these

0:21:24faces better. We're going to add more features long term." But yeah, honestly, the reviews that

0:21:32I read so far seem to jibe with what you were saying, though, which is that there tends to be

0:21:38an immediate sort of, "What is this?" And then it kind of fades out as you talk and the spatial

0:21:43audio kicks in and you're like, "Oh, that person is over there and this person's over here," etc.

0:21:48Yeah, that's where I was going. Especially the three-person call where there's two,

0:21:56they call them tiles. They're sort of like windows, but I think they call them tiles because they're

0:22:01not really resizable, like when you're FaceTiming someone and they're just sort of like squares.

0:22:05And the two of them are perfectly aligned. And there's a spatial element to it that putting

0:22:12aside the... And I think I used the phrase twice because I felt like it was so apt that it's deep

0:22:20in the uncanny valley, right? These personas are deep in the uncanny valley. They're very

0:22:26unsettling. Put aside that uncanny aspect of them. Overall, though, the feature and the spatialness

0:22:34is better. It's better than what you and I are doing right here in this flat browser window.

0:22:42And especially with three people, because you get a spatial element to the sound and they can even

0:22:48see which person you're making eye contact with. I tested them. I was like, "I'm looking at you,

0:22:54or I'm looking at one of you. Can you guys both tell which one I'm making eye contact with?"

0:22:58That's cool. That's very clever. I mean, that requires obviously some foolery on Apple's part

0:23:05to sort of take the position of your eyes and assign it to the appropriate tile and then

0:23:12transmit that through to the person. That's really cool. I like that.

0:23:14Yeah. And I don't know. I forget. I don't even know what the limit is. Can you add...

0:23:18I guess you can keep adding people to FaceTime. There must be some number of people you can add.

0:23:22Oh, I think it was like 16 or 32 last time I checked. I can't remember.

0:23:25Yeah, because I remember there was a demo they did at a keynote and it was a lot. They were

0:23:30very proud of it. 32.

0:23:31Yeah. Well, that's a lot. So, I'm sure with 32 people, you can't make eye contact with people.

0:23:36Or it doesn't really matter that much, right? Like, it's such a small shift of your eye.

0:23:41Right. So, putting aside the verisimilitude of the actual animated persona, overall, it's a great

0:23:51device for video conferencing, right? But it's a big thing to put aside.

0:23:56Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Put aside the face. The face stuff is good. You can move the tiles

0:24:03separately. Can you put one person over here? Can you rearrange?

0:24:07I think so.

0:24:07Or are they grouped together?

0:24:09I don't remember.

0:24:10Okay. Yeah. So, file that under, I don't know. Overall, again, I jumped right into this. And

0:24:19even though I'm always notoriously, I mean, the bastards at 9to5Mac, did you see what they did?

0:24:25They had a review roundup. And then at the bottom, they said, "We'll keep updating this page with

0:24:30other reviews as they come in throughout the day, asterisk." And then it said, "John Gruber's review."

0:24:37That's funny. Okay, that's very funny. Come on, you have to admit.

0:24:40I did. It made me laugh. It actually made me laugh. But it also made me a little embarrassed.

0:24:46It's the embargo and the Grubergo, right?

0:24:48It made me laugh and it made me slightly embarrassed. I'm not proud of this.

0:24:52I'll say this in my defense. If I weren't embarrassed by the fact that I always missed

0:24:58these, and if I didn't think each time, "I think I've got a chance to actually make this one,"

0:25:02God only knows how much later I'd actually be.

0:25:07Yeah. I mean, I've missed them before too. I do think it's good though, that you take the time

0:25:14you take and then you set yourself in a category where... I used to do this with embargoes,

0:25:20not on Apple stuff, but way back in the past, I used to kind of mess around with my timings on

0:25:26that on purpose. Not early, obviously, if I agreed, I agreed. But if I was late to an embargo,

0:25:32sometimes you give it some air. And then, especially if you had a take where you're like,

0:25:37"I really don't think anybody's going to take this angle," right? You give it a little air and it

0:25:42gives yours time to breathe, space to breathe and exist on its own. And I think that people have

0:25:47come to expect that. So I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think the expectation is kind of

0:25:51nice to have built into your audience because they're like, "Oh, cool." And then I get like

0:25:54an amuse-bouche or a reverse amuse-bouche dessert with Gruber's review.

0:25:59One of these times though, I'm going to hit the embargo and everybody is going to be surprised.

0:26:04All right, let me take a...

0:26:06I'm going to keep that in your pocket.

0:26:08Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor. It's our good friends. And I have a

0:26:12VisionOS message to go with it. Adblock Pro. Look, triple Apple recognition for Adblock Pro. This is

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0:26:38YouTube, Netflix, which aren't there on VisionOS, Adblock Pro is there on day one. It is coming

0:26:45to Vision Pro. It is there right now. And those things like autoplay videos, those deceptive

0:26:53little tiny X buttons to cross out. It's like the two little pixel X that you can tap to delete a

0:27:02popover ad that's blocking the content you actually want to read. Adblock Pro takes care of all that

0:27:08type of stuff. And just by blocking all of this crap and all sorts of stuff that you don't even

0:27:14see, the trackers that are out there running JavaScript code behind the scenes on the web

0:27:19pages you load, Adblock Pro estimates that they can make web browsing up to two to three times

0:27:24faster and slash your data usage by up to 60%. And less data usage, honestly, often means extended

0:27:32battery life. Really, there's just much less to process. And web browsing is actually significantly

0:27:39processor-intensive. So, you can say no to trackers, maintain it, it improves your privacy,

0:27:45increases the speed of the web, increases the readability of the web, all sorts of great

0:27:51features. The stupid allow cookie notifications, it gets those too. All of that stuff. It's also

0:27:58multilingual. They've fine-tuned their service for a vast array of languages spanning from English to

0:28:04all the way to languages like Vietnamese. So, you can experience Adblock Pro's ad blocking

0:28:09absolutely free. And for the cost of just two coffees annually, unearth a treasure trove of

0:28:15premium features that will transform your browsing journey across your iPhone, iPad, and Mac. And the

0:28:22cherry on top with family sharing, which is great, one subscription covers up to six accounts. And

0:28:28there's even a lifetime payment option if you don't want to pay for a subscription. They get it.

0:28:33So, just jump to the App Store and search for Adblock Pro and you will find it and transform

0:28:40your Safari experience today. This was super convenient because I saw that as one of the

0:28:46sponsors for this episode yesterday when I was like, "Hey, before I go overnight into deep dark

0:28:52review writing mode, I got to set this up." I pinged you. I set this up. And I didn't have

0:28:58ad blocking at all in Safari on VisionOS. And I was trying to do some things and it's like,

0:29:04"Oh, I'm trying to review this product." And Safari is maybe the best app on the whole product. I

0:29:11didn't even mention that in my review, but it's a really good implementation of a web browser.

0:29:16But I totally was like, "Oh my God, without any extensions in Safari, the web is unusable."

0:29:22I mean, I'm not just saying that because I've got Adblock Pro as a sponsor, but

0:29:27you've got to have something. I mean, it's crazy how bad so many websites have gotten.

0:29:33Really nuts.

0:29:33Yeah, it's unfortunate. I mean, obviously you and I both know that there's a variety of things that

0:29:39have to do with the business of media that has caused this current issue. But it's interesting

0:29:47how much we've come to rely on extensibility in Safari over the years and how deep it is in their

0:29:56DNA. And then the moment it's you're like, "What? What happened?" It's kind of crazy.

0:30:03I know that a lot of times, and even recently, and maybe at the end of this episode, we'll have time

0:30:09to touch on all this EU nonsense, which it's crazy how much stuff has gone on in the last week. But

0:30:14a lot of times when I hear people talk about Safari competitively, it is from sort of the

0:30:24Nerdist sphere. And it's from the context of web developers who, because they're web developers,

0:30:31are more into Chrome because Chrome caters more towards leading edge web developer features.

0:30:41And a lot of web developers think, and perhaps with some justification, that maybe one of Apple's

0:30:47motivations for keeping Safari behind the bleeding edge of web rendering APIs is to

0:30:56tilt the scale in favor of native apps for their platforms. But I think there's a lot more to it.

0:31:03And you and I, you know this, that one of the differences is that the WebKit team has a much

0:31:09bigger priority on battery life and energy conservation. It's been years. I've been thinking

0:31:16last week that I should redo the test, but years ago I wrote my own little

0:31:19AppleScript test. Pretty simple, but just go through the same list of URLs in Safari

0:31:26until the battery dies, then go through the same list of URLs over and over and over again until

0:31:32the battery dies in Chrome. And it was like, I think it was like 2017 or so when the last time

0:31:38I did it, which is admittedly six years ago, but it was like a 1.5x factor in difference.

0:31:44In other words, if all you do is use Safari instead of Chrome, you could save it's 1.5x

0:31:51longer battery life. Significant, not 5% or 10%, but at least at that point it was 1.5x.

0:31:57More than that though, it's just having their own native rendering engine has been such a boon

0:32:06to Apple over the years. I mean, and again, go back to the original iPhone, which launched without

0:32:12native third-party apps for an entire year because they could say, "Well, just write web apps." And

0:32:17we've done some things in the original 1.0 version of iPhone Safari to let you sort of make fake

0:32:24native-looking apps as web apps. And it just, there was so much content for the original iPhone

0:32:34that went through Safari. I mean, it really was one of the, if not, probably for me, the most

0:32:40used app in Safari for the whole first year. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And the state of Safari today is

0:32:49actually really excellent. I mean, I was a Chrome user for many, many, many years, like very rabid

0:32:56Chrome user because of its good integrations with Google services, obviously. But then also it just,

0:33:02it felt speedy and it rendered well, and it had all kinds of weird wonky stuff that you

0:33:08could plug in. Like the extensions universe of Chrome is, it's wild. It's amazing, right? Like,

0:33:14it's a really great ecosystem of stuff. Everything from checking prices on a cart to a developer tool

0:33:21to Web3 stuff, whatever. Like you could, you name it, you can find it in the extension store or in

0:33:27somebody's hacked together on GitHub. And I think that's really fun and cool, but I came to a point

0:33:32in my life where I realized that A, it was a memory hog, B, it's like eight battery, like crazy,

0:33:39and then C, like a lot of the really edge case wonky stuff, I only used a handful of days out of

0:33:45the year. And so if I needed it, Chrome could always be there. I usually install Chrome on my

0:33:51devices or my computers, but I use Safari because it's faster, it's like slicker, it's smoother,

0:34:00it uses less memory, it never crashes. Like, never, Reno.

0:34:04- I'm laughing because you and I are talking using StreamYard right now.

0:34:08- No, I know it's so ironic because right now StreamYard does not run on Safari.

0:34:12- Right, it does not run on Safari.

0:34:13- I opened Chrome for this month.

0:34:15- Like as a lay person's rule of thumb for why at a nerdy type level, people might prefer

0:34:25Chrome or Chrome based browsers over Safari, it is because inside as a web app, it enables more

0:34:32native app type things. So like a service like StreamYard where we've got video streaming and

0:34:37we're recording audio at a high quality and stuff like that.

0:34:40- Yeah, with local storage and all of that cool stuff that PWAs bring along, yeah.

0:34:44- Yeah, and the tinkering type stuff that you said, we're in the same way that like when you're at

0:34:49the command line and you can type defaults right, some obscure command in the Mac OS terminal,

0:34:56you can do weird things in Chrome with extensions that you can't do in Safari.

0:35:01- Yeah, Chrome is like ready for you to turn its guts inside out at the moment's notice, right?

0:35:05Like you put in the right string in the URL and you're looking into the deep workings of

0:35:10how the browser renders and all kinds of fun stuff. And that's great if you need that.

0:35:14- Right, that's a more googly approach to the web and Safari is a very, very appley approach

0:35:21to the web. But overall, wow, what an overlooked, I think people just overlook how good an app Safari

0:35:29is and how essential it is each time Apple bootstraps a new one of these platforms,

0:35:35like the iPhone 16 years ago, or I guess 17 years ago at this point.

0:35:39- And now how much of a competitive advantage it is to have like an anchor.

0:35:43- Right. - For experiences across the web, yeah.

0:35:45- And now with Vision OS today, one of the, in the last two weeks, one of the big stories was the

0:35:51fact that two big services not only don't have native Vision OS apps, but don't even allow their

0:35:57iPad apps to run in Vision OS, are Netflix and YouTube. And so if it weren't for Safari being,

0:36:06hey, it's at least both of those services are pretty, they're good enough in Safari. I mean,

0:36:11they're not great, but imagine if you couldn't watch Netflix or YouTube at all, right? I mean.

0:36:17- Yeah, I wouldn't have put it past them to be honest. I think that, like YouTube especially,

0:36:25maybe Netflix is like, all right, I guess you can watch it in the browser,

0:36:28but YouTube is like, no, no, thank you. - I almost feel like it would be too spiteful,

0:36:33right? Like it's, there's a line that that would cross, right? And that's sort of, I don't know,

0:36:39I think they would have to resort to old school Bill Gates is in charge of Microsoft trickery

0:36:46to break it, right? Like they couldn't just put up a thing that says, YouTube.com is not available

0:36:53on Vision OS. - Polite fictions is the name of the term, right? Polite fictions, where you basically

0:37:00are able to publicly say, oh, we want to provide the best experience for our users. And so we will

0:37:07evaluate the platform going forward, blah, blah, blah. What you really mean is we're not going to

0:37:12build something that makes your thing better, forget you, right? It's like those polite

0:37:16fictions are able to hide behind. - Right, or introduce a couple of glitches that actually

0:37:20make it render broken. I mean, that's what Microsoft used to be accused of doing. I mean,

0:37:26I don't know how much truth there is to it, but the rumor, maybe it's true, maybe it's not,

0:37:29but the rumor I remember when I was young, really young, was that Microsoft had an internal,

0:37:35additional, the fact that it's talking about DOS, not Windows, will tell you how old it is,

0:37:40but that there was an internal slogan at Microsoft, DOS ain't done till Lotus don't run.

0:37:46And the idea was that like DOS 5.1.3 would go out and however you would get, you couldn't download

0:37:56patches, then you'd go to like your user group and get a bunch of floppy disks to update. And then

0:38:01all of a sudden Lotus 1, 2, 3 wouldn't work, right? And then you'd be like, "Ah, but Excel

0:38:08works fine." I think that that speaks to, again, I'm rhapsodizing about Safari specifically, but

0:38:17the web overall and what a small miracle it is that we have this universal open computing platform

0:38:25that we just expect to be everywhere, right? And that didn't have to be that way. I think

0:38:32I don't know, rolled the dice on a couple of different multiverses forking around the early

0:38:39nineties. And I think you can very easily get to the year 2000 without the worldwide web.

0:38:45Microsoft certainly was against it at the beginning, right? And even Apple,

0:38:51even though they were foundering at the time, their ideas were things like HyperCard,

0:38:55which were always Mac specific, right? Apple never had any interest in any kind of cross-platform

0:39:00stuff. However lost Apple was for a long number of years there while Jobs was in exile,

0:39:06part of Apple was always, "Well, we're only going to build stuff for our platforms," right? So,

0:39:10Apple wasn't going to build, you know, some hypothetical Apple that tried to make HyperCard

0:39:15cross-platform maybe could have built it, but companies weren't interested in it. Honestly,

0:39:21Microsoft and Apple weren't even all that interested in TCP/IP networking. You used to have

0:39:28to get like a freeware system extension for Mac OS 7.5 to get TCP/IP. Everything was proprietary

0:39:36networking protocols. It's a small miracle that we have this and that however spiteful or whatever

0:39:43else, whatever the reasons are that drove Netflix and YouTube to not even allow their iPad apps on

0:39:49Vision OS, you can use youtube.com and netflix.com. And once you break out the video into a full

0:39:56screen window, it's not that different from a native app.

0:39:59Ben

0:39:59Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, the web is the great equalizer and the great accessor,

0:40:04which is why I think people with some knowledge of the past, the commentators who have kind of

0:40:11seen a thing or two, definitely have their pitchforks out over anybody that tries to

0:40:16disintermediate the web because it is the connective tissue, right? And at the end of

0:40:20the day, if you can browse on a device, then that device has some access. It may not be best in

0:40:26class access. It may not be the ideal user experience, but has some access to all the

0:40:31services of the world. Right. And I think that's a, that's an important distinction to make when

0:40:36you're like, Hey, we're not launching a native app. Okay. But we're not blocking vision pro on,

0:40:42on the web browser with a user agent of vision pro. So like, I think the polite fictions part

0:40:48of it is like, Oh, we haven't had the time to build this, or it's just not a priority for us or

0:40:53whatever. But at the same time, I think that having it on the web is sort of fine with me.

0:40:58Like they don't have to, right. It's up to Apple to make the thing compelling from an addressable

0:41:06audience standpoint and an experience standpoint to where Netflix says we have to support this.

0:41:13We must write our, our users want it. It's a wonderful experience. It drives subscriptions

0:41:20and or whatever. And of course the whole app store rules and all that stuff comes into play. But

0:41:25the fact is, is that it's up to Apple to make this thing compelling. I don't think it's on anybody

0:41:31else to support this thing until Apple gets it to a place where people are like, I got,

0:41:36where's Netflix. Like we all have vision pros. Where the hell are you Netflix? That kind of thing.

0:41:41Trenton Larkin Yeah, I totally agree. And I don't think it's a big deal in the long run. And like I

0:41:50said, both services work okay going through Safari. So it's not the end of the world. But I do think

0:41:56there's a little bit of a, like all the canaries in the coal mine aren't dead, but there's, hey,

0:42:01there's two of them. The ones labeled YouTube and Netflix, right. And it's just sort of a,

0:42:07like a bad, so it makes my spidey sense tingle about Apple's, for lack of a better word, arrogance.

0:42:14And what I've heard, little birdie wise, is conflicting. Well, one thing is that I know this

0:42:22for a fact that internal to Apple, until two or three weeks ago, anybody inside Apple had access

0:42:30to the entire App Store library of iPad apps to install on Vision OS, because there wasn't

0:42:37any kind of opt out for developers yet, because it hadn't gotten to that point. And it was obviously

0:42:44only available to Apple employees, right? So they can do all sorts of things with iPad apps that

0:42:50can't be done outside the company. And that internal to Apple, they just assumed, you know,

0:42:56they might have been mildly disappointed that Netflix didn't have a native Vision OS app. And

0:43:00I guess they knew that they wouldn't because they knew that Netflix wasn't coming into the developer

0:43:06labs with any kind of work. They weren't answering their calls. But there's, there's lots of streaming

0:43:12services, most of the streaming services, I'm not sure if there are any, I don't know if there are

0:43:17any other exceptions. But I know the ones I've looked for so far, as I've been testing it have

0:43:22all been there as iPad apps, Paramount, Peacock, I don't know, I haven't looked for Amazon,

0:43:27Hulu, but Disney Plus. Yeah, well, who Yeah, Disney Plus is native and Hulu is there as an iPad app.

0:43:34But that Apple people were, I'm not gonna say shocked, but they were surprised that Netflix

0:43:41click the checkbox to opt out of putting their iPad app, because they thought, well,

0:43:48A, they thought, hey, we've been using it, and it's pretty good. You know, or somebody, one,

0:43:53one person told me it was good, just not even pretty good, but good. And B, from Apple's

0:43:59perspective, they, they, I just don't think that they could even believe that anybody would not

0:44:04want to be on Vision OS on day one. That's the perspective that worries me like that they just

0:44:09think, well, of course you do this thing is amazing. Wouldn't it be great if I were outside,

0:44:15I'd want to be on this amazing platform. So therefore, everybody wants to be on this amazing

0:44:19platform. And then when you're actually outside Apple, and you are Netflix, and you're like,

0:44:23why in the world are we going to spend all this time on a platform that might only have 200,000

0:44:29users right now at launch. And Netflix in particular already, like their Apple TV app,

0:44:35is a native Apple TV app, even though all their TV apps for all the other boxes and the smart TVs out

0:44:42there all sort of from the same code base, which is a JavaScript based framework that they can't

0:44:48use on Apple TV, because it's like against the App Store rules for Apple TV. So they already build a

0:44:54custom app for Apple TV, and they know how much they know exactly how much effort it takes to

0:44:59keep that up to date. And I think that factors into their decision here on how many people there are.

0:45:05Steven: Yeah, it's the reason that a lot of games don't chip on Mac, right? Because you have to,

0:45:09there's obviously the big AAA developers have to be engaged in different ways. But there's a very

0:45:15long tail of really clever and interesting games that come on to Steam that, you know, every day

0:45:22that have some of these Steam games over the last year are really fascinating because there'll be

0:45:27like two or three developers, sometimes even a solo developer, that will launch a game on

0:45:32Steam that will get millions, millions of concurrent users like incredible or, or hundreds of millions

0:45:38of downloads total over the space of years is really pretty fantastic success stories there.

0:45:44But almost all of these developers do not ship a Mac version, because they know they have to buy

0:45:51Mac hardware, they have to pay for the license, they have to get it registered by Apple,

0:45:55start up a developer account, do the port, get it over there. And that's just a lot of effort,

0:46:01right? Now, if you can convince them like, hey, this is a new audience for you that will

0:46:08expand your horizons and make you more money and blah, blah, blah. That's great. But Apple's been

0:46:14unable to do that in gaming. And then with streaming, of course, they had to like,

0:46:18you have to support the iPad, you have to support the iPhone, because it's literally billions of

0:46:22users. But Vision Pro doesn't have any of those hooks. I work at a startup now. So I know very

0:46:27well, you got to convince everybody every day that you have any right to exist, or that you have any

0:46:32right to their attention. And I think that the arrogance that you spoke about is worrisome,

0:46:38because you have to keep that hustlers mentality, like the initial YouTube app, which Apple said,

0:46:45we know that you don't want to do this. But we need YouTube, we need a video app on the phone,

0:46:51we feel strongly about it, we'll build it for you, which is what they did. We'll make you a nice

0:46:55icon, we'll build it for you, all you have to do is provide us the API's, and we'll get you all set

0:47:00up. And of course, that came along with the search deal and all that. But like that was hustling,

0:47:04right? That was admitting that you have something that you need something from them,

0:47:08and hustling and convincing and selling yourself all that. And of course, once you're the biggest

0:47:14company in the world, the natural inclination is to rest on your laurels and to assume that

0:47:18everybody is going to approach the throne and kiss the ring. And you have to be careful about

0:47:21that mentality creeping into especially such an important new platform. Yeah, and I hate to bring

0:47:28out the Steve Jobs card, but I'm going to bring it out because I kind of feel like if there's a

0:47:34lay person's understanding, they might, especially maybe even younger people for whom Steve Jobs is

0:47:39more of a mythical figure, like Walt Disney was for us growing up. Yeah, you can see him on Twitter,

0:47:45they talk about him like, oh, you talk about this like you talk about Jurassic Park. Yeah,

0:47:49or the Jurassic era. I think maybe in the mythical viewing, he was so such a singular genius and so

0:47:58arrogant and cocky that he exemplified Apple will just do it its own and force people to bend to

0:48:06their will. But I think in practice, one of his many geniuses was the way that he could ingratiate

0:48:13himself with partners when he felt like Apple needed it, right? Convince them. Yeah, I'm not

0:48:20quite saying if Steve Jobs were still running Apple, I mean, so many things would be different.

0:48:23But I do feel that at some point, not like two weeks ago or 10 days ago, but a time when they

0:48:31could have gotten it done months ago, if he would have found out Netflix wasn't planning on a native

0:48:36app, he would have got like Ted Sarandos on the on the phone said, Ted, let's get together and

0:48:43get together and and sell him on doing vision OS and say, you know, and and I don't know what he'd

0:48:50have to do to sweeten the pot. They didn't do another keynote for this, you know, giving

0:48:55somebody a keynote spot, like the singular CEO and the iPhone introduction. Right, right. You know,

0:49:02that was obviously one thing that Jobs could do to sweeten the pot. But there are even without

0:49:07keynotes, there's things that he could do something to make them feel special that will put it in

0:49:12commercials. I don't know what, you know, they'll do something to raise them up and say, this is a

0:49:19big world. We've got TV Plus, we know that. But you know, we're not Netflix, we need, you know,

0:49:23Netflix is the best and Netflix deserves to be on vision OS. Let's make this work. Work it out.

0:49:28Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to describe all arrogance to Apple, right? There's definitely

0:49:33Netflix has pride. They're the biggest streaming platform. They're the truly the monster there and

0:49:38innovative, initially innovative approach that that one right there won the market share.

0:49:45And I'm guessing there's all kinds of like ego going on there. One thing I have learned

0:49:51in covering business and talking to many dozens of millionaires and billionaires and CEOs

0:49:57is the one thing that I think people still can't internalize when I talk to them about it or tell

0:50:04them about it, they don't believe me. But how much of these decisions just come down to individual

0:50:08egos? Like individual people just annoyed, right? Or they're just like irritated or they

0:50:15don't like someone. And it's like crazy to think somebody would overlook or pass by potential

0:50:22opportunity for millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars in income or revenue or

0:50:26whatever, whatever you want, however you want to, to scope the opportunity. But they do all the time

0:50:34for really petty, silly reasons. And sometimes those reasons are about conviction, right? And

0:50:41about personal values and in the way that they see the world. And that's look, that's why they

0:50:47lead the company or the way they founded the company. That's the responsibility that's

0:50:50invested in them by board of by the board or the shareholders, et cetera. However,

0:50:56a lot of times it's just petty, it's petty stuff. We were big, where the, you should have come to

0:51:01us. You should have asked us and the controversy is true on the other side. So sometimes it's just

0:51:06like petty silliness. Nobody answered an email or didn't feel like it or whatever. It's kind of,

0:51:11kind of crazy. I think when the Apple TV launched, remember there was something that went down.

0:51:17It wasn't with Netflix. I can't remember what it was. Do you remember? And it may be was quasi

0:51:24non-public information, but there was like some stuff that went down with basically broadcasting

0:51:29and like partners to, for the, for launching the Apple TV, like the obvious people that should have

0:51:34been there or should be there. And I remember some stuff went down and it's just like, look,

0:51:38so-and-so was mad. And then they had to send Eddie in and he fixed it or whatever, you know,

0:51:43it's like, it's one of those things where a lot of these big time business decisions

0:51:47get over logic by all of the people who are punditizing about it. They're out there writing

0:51:54treatises on what the logic of this decision or that decision was at the business level and saying,

0:52:00oh, they must want to do X, Y, or Z, or they're trying to use it for leverage for ABC. And it's

0:52:05like, no, man, we just don't like each other. Well, I would say that the, the controversy is

0:52:11also that Jobs understand that, right? He understood spitefulness, right? And he understood

0:52:16the power of the billionaire CEO that the buck stops here. And I think he understood that the

0:52:21opposite, which is that if he could just go direct to them and sell Ted Sarandos on, you guys need to

0:52:28have a vision OS app that he could make it happen, right? He's like, cause he knows a strong CEO when

0:52:33he saw one and could know that if Ted Sarandos, if every person lower, like in that sphere of Netflix,

0:52:41just looked at like engineering and design allocation and the time that they can estimate

0:52:49that would take, cause Netflix is a really strong engineering and design company. You know, they've

0:52:54got rock solid infrastructure. Their apps are very good. I might disagree with some of the design

0:53:00decisions they make, but they're all very thoughtful, right? It's, you know, they're Netflix

0:53:05because they're good and that they could run this through a formula and conclude logically that it

0:53:14doesn't make sense for Netflix to jump on vision OS on day one. But if Ted Sarandos came in and said,

0:53:19Hey, I just talked to Steve, we got to get on this and we need it by Christmas. Then it happens,

0:53:25right? No, there's a sprint. Everybody works on weekends. There's no questions. It just happens.

0:53:29And like I was saying on the last episode of this show with Marco, like with YouTube,

0:53:33I think I said it there, but it's super telling with YouTube. We're back with the original iPhone.

0:53:38I know that Google and Apple had a bit of a falling out under Steve Jobs because of Android

0:53:43and talking about spite and bitterness and stuff, but they were literally before there was an app

0:53:49store. They had a built-in version of YouTube in the system software written by Apple with Google's

0:53:56collaboration for the backend for three or four years before they spun it out of the OS and said,

0:54:02okay, now you guys just make your own app. And I remember when they did that and what a-

0:54:06Yeah, you remember why too, right?

0:54:07Wait, I don't remember why exactly.

0:54:10It was because they wanted to insert ads.

0:54:13Yeah, that's it. That was it. Yeah, that was it. It was ads, right? Cause it got big, right?

0:54:17Yeah.

0:54:17It turned out a lot.

0:54:18And all of a sudden it was a thing. It was like, oh, we need to be, we didn't have control over

0:54:22it. Injecting ads in the video player and the video player at that time was just the system

0:54:27video player.

0:54:27Right. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. Now I do remember that. Right. Cause it, in 2007, 2008,

0:54:332009, it was just sort of a curiosity. Hey, you can actually watch YouTube on your phone. If you

0:54:38have an iPhone, it's actually, it's actually kind of cool.

0:54:40And YouTube was much smaller then. So it was like really kind of channel based and it was like,

0:54:43oh, watch gadget coverage or watch. Yeah, exactly.

0:54:47And then Google could obviously see which way the wind was blowing and figured out this was,

0:54:52this is maybe where the majority of YouTube viewing was going to go.

0:54:56Yup. And then like, wait a minute, we make money off of them.

0:55:01All right. What else do you want to, do you have any other questions about the vision?

0:55:05Can you unlock your phone?

0:55:07Where? Ah, so I had, that's one of the things that fell on the cutting room floor. I

0:55:14hopefully will get out. I'm thinking of doing it in just bullet list format.

0:55:18Like yeah, yeah. Dude, just do a details.

0:55:20Just yeah, just a details thing tomorrow. But one of them is, and it's incredibly frustrating.

0:55:26When you want to do something on your phone and you know the fastest thing would be to do it and

0:55:33you can see your phone or your watch pretty well through the vision pro. It doesn't look perfect.

0:55:40There's a, you know, pictures of pixels on pixels thing to it, but it could work, but

0:55:47it all falls apart because face ID doesn't work. And every time it just gets me every single time

0:55:54I've been doing it. I've probably done it 50 times in the last six days where I've thought,

0:55:59oh, I'll do blank on my phone. Or I see an alert on my phone or something like from an app that I

0:56:04don't have on vision pro while I'm using it. Pick it up and nope, nothing. And I'm like, what? Why?

0:56:11Because I'm so used to face. I'm so used to face ID working seamlessly.

0:56:14Well, it's a testament, right? To how good face ID really is. And everybody was so worried about

0:56:19it. And it's so automatic now. It's so automatic. You're like, what the hell?

0:56:23It's so automatic that my brain or my instincts think it doesn't exist. It's as though my phone

0:56:30just is unlocked and just swipe up and I'm in and every single time in vision pro. And

0:56:36when you're sitting down and you're static, you just sort of forget that you don't forget.

0:56:41You've got a weight on your face, but you just kind of forget that you don't look like you and

0:56:45you've, you've got a big black mask on. So no, your phone does not unlock. I kind of hope that

0:56:52this is, you know, so my second, my follow-up on that is that I hope that they're working on

0:56:58something like the way that your watch can unlock your phone when you're wearing like a COVID face

0:57:05mask. Right? Remember for a long time, you've been able to, maybe even since Apple watch came out,

0:57:10you've been able to unlock your watch with your phone. So like when you wake up in the morning

0:57:16and your watch is locked, you put your watch on your wrist. You don't have to type the code on

0:57:20your wrist. You can just pick up your phone and do face ID there. And then you get a little

0:57:25notification at the top. Your app, John's Apple watch was unlocked with iPhone. And now after the

0:57:32whole 2020 thing where people started wearing face masks all the time, they added the feature that

0:57:39works the other way where if you want, you can opt into if your Apple watch is on your wrist and has

0:57:47been unlocked, then you can unlock your phone while you're wearing a mask, something like that.

0:57:52- Well, Optic ID is their scanning method for determining it's you, right? And the Vision Pro,

0:57:59it's there, it uses the cameras in the headset to recognize your iris and says, this is uniquely you.

0:58:05And if that's true, it seems like your phone could say, hey, the headset is currently on

0:58:12and authenticated by this user, so I will unlock, right?

0:58:16- Yeah. So maybe it has to have occurred to people at Apple, right? Every single person

0:58:22it's what we're talking about has probably been discussed ad nauseum. So there's probably

0:58:26a simple reason that they didn't launch it yet and that's because they didn't finish.

0:58:30- Yeah. But it has to be on their list. If they had the feature, I don't think they would quite

0:58:37brag about it because they don't want to insinuate that there's anything you would need to do on your

0:58:43phone while you're in Vision Pro, right? But the truth is-

0:58:46- It would just work with quietly, you know?

0:58:48- Yeah. Honestly, one thing I would like to do with it is I would like to use the keyboard,

0:58:54to be honest. You know how, did you ever do that with Apple TV?

0:58:58- Mm-hmm. Totally. All the time. Because I use a third-party remote. I don't even use Apples.

0:59:03- I have a system that-

0:59:06- So you can't talk to your remote or-

0:59:08- Eaten.

0:59:09- Yeah.

0:59:09- Yeah. It's got its own thing over the top. I forget what it's called. It's,

0:59:13anyhow, it doesn't matter. But it's an integrated system and it's got,

0:59:16it has its own voice recognition, but it doesn't integrate with Apple TV directly that way.

0:59:20So I always use my phone. And so if I'm typing or whatever, it's my phone.

0:59:24- Yeah. I forget some of the contexts where I need to type on Apple TV. I guess sometimes

0:59:29we'll like when it has-

0:59:30- Passwords for sure, or-

0:59:31- Well, passwords, so I usually can unlock from the key chain, but sometimes you can't.

0:59:36And sometimes it's like your app forgot and wants you to go to a website and get a six-digit code

0:59:42and type this in. And it's, oh, it's so much easier to just pick up your phone and it just

0:59:47switches and you can just type on your phone. I would love to do that with Vision Pro because

0:59:52typing on the virtual keyboard is so tedious. So that would be one, but that's a very good

1:00:01question. What else? I guess that leads into the sort of crappy typing experience on Vision OS.

1:00:09- Yeah. So the peek and poke, right? Like that's the main keyboard option is just the look and poke,

1:00:18right? Or look and pinch.

1:00:20- Right. Right. It's one of the few things in the system, and I mentioned it, but I'm not quite sure

1:00:27how clear this is, right? And you remember this from June, like when we first tried it.

1:00:32Everybody's first instinct when they try this thing is you're like, wow, this looks amazing.

1:00:37And then you get, oh, and they're like, press the digital crown and it makes the home view

1:00:41of apps appear right in front of you. And then you're like, oh, I want to launch Safari. And

1:00:46you reach out and poke at the Safari in front of you. And your finger, it's close enough to you

1:00:51that your finger goes right through it and nothing happens because that's not the interaction model.

1:00:56You don't poke at Safari's icon in front of you. You just stare at it and do the little

1:01:03index to thumb finger at your waist and it launches. And then you get, that just takes

1:01:08minutes to get the hang of. You're just like very quickly, you're like, oh, you don't actually poke.

1:01:11- Yeah, poking only seems right until you have to do it for more than five minutes. And you're like,

1:01:16wait a minute, this is exhausting.

1:01:17- But when you get the virtual keyboard, you can do it either way. You can actually poke

1:01:23your index finger at the keys on the end. It does place the keyboard lower. It's down sort of by your

1:01:30rib cage. So you're not poking out in front of you because then it would obscure the window you're

1:01:35looking at, right? So the window that you're trying to type in is at eye level. And then a

1:01:41keyboard appears where you look down a little bit, but you just sort of poke your fingers at it.

1:01:47I always heard that's how Tolkien typed, that he just typed with his two index fingers.

1:01:52And he wrote these massive books. I mean, God only knows how to got them all ready.

1:01:55- God, the Silmarillion, two fingers at a time.

1:01:57- I don't know. I don't know if that's true.

1:01:59- Yeah.

1:01:59- But you can also look at the keys and pinch them. But as far as I can tell, either way,

1:02:06it's incredibly inefficient. I mean, it's really not much better than poking at the tiny little

1:02:13pencil tip keys on the Apple Watch keyboard. It's just, I don't know what else they could do,

1:02:18though. I mean, there's no...

1:02:21- It seems like people were expecting the most common, I don't know either, right? I have played

1:02:27with a variety of virtual keyboards over the years, given that the Quest keyboards, they have their

1:02:33own approach. The Meta's approach is to use the remotes as pointers, right? And then the clicks

1:02:40as type, the click of your trigger finger, which doesn't work too bad. Once again, it limits your

1:02:45arm motion, right? You're sort of like just twisting your wrist and then you click to type

1:02:50out. It's still not ideal, but it is relatively... It's okay, right? You could type 25 characters

1:02:59and be okay, but you could never type 200. It would feel awful, right? I think the one thing

1:03:04that I think most people or the paradigm that most people expected to see or were hoping to see,

1:03:10if they were hoping anything at all, is the keyboard projected flat on the desktop

1:03:15with the ability to tap on it as if you were typing on any other keyboard. And it seems like

1:03:21that could theoretically be possible with Apple's hand occlusion, which is quite good. So it would

1:03:27pass the keyboard through your hands and you could see what was going on. But I don't know how it

1:03:31would work in practice, but I'm guessing that they've tried it internally. It seems like they

1:03:35would have attempted. - And there's a bunch of features

1:03:40when you're doing X, Y, or Z where you reach up and if your hand obscures it, they'll just make

1:03:46your hand disappear, like if something's close enough to you. But it's super unsettling when

1:03:53your hand disappears. I swear, it's like there's a part of your lizard brain that just says,

1:04:00"Oh my God, I lost my hand." Right? It's like we're not hooked up, like millions of years

1:04:10of evolution have not hooked up our brains to accept not seeing our hands when it's literally

1:04:16in front of our face. And so I feel, and I also think there's just too many people who need to

1:04:22look at the keyboard while they type. And I've even noticed, I mean, I obviously have written

1:04:30a lot over, typed a lot over the years. I can type with my eyes closed or without looking at

1:04:36the keyboard, but I realized this week that I do look at the keyboard. I just don't even realize

1:04:43that I do. I don't need to, but I do sometimes. It's weird having the windows you're typing into

1:04:50be so far away from the keyboard you're typing on. I mean, and there's other contexts where people

1:04:55do this. You can hook up a keyboard to an Apple TV, or you can have a computer with a TV set,

1:05:03or somehow have a display for your TV that's not even close to the keyboard. But with VisionOS,

1:05:10it's just a little unusual. I don't know. They do a neat thing with the hardware keyboard.

1:05:16I wrote my review where they put like an autocorrect bar above the physical keyboard,

1:05:21which is cool. Yeah, that is neat. I mean, I don't know. Obviously,

1:05:26smarter minds than ours have probably tried a variety of permutations inside Apple. And

1:05:31what they came up with was just to use a Bluetooth keyboard, right? If you really want to go at it

1:05:36typing. Yeah. And I don't know. I'm sure somewhere, I'm sure Apple's been working on it. Like you

1:05:42said, I'm sure every company has been working on somehow a projected virtual keyboard on a tabletop

1:05:48forever. But I think there's just so many problems with that. And you get, I mean,

1:05:53we could go off on our own tangents about our love of mechanical keyboards or whatever.

1:06:00But having no feedback at ever, right? To, you know, like a keyboard with that,

1:06:04that makes the old butterfly keyboards from Apple seem like they're super clicky.

1:06:08Yes. Seem like miracles of responsiveness. Yeah.

1:06:11Wow. That is the clickiest ass keyboard I've ever used.

1:06:15Yeah. Look, I have some used those laser projected keyboards before. They don't work very well,

1:06:21but I've used them. I'm probably one of a handful of people that have ever tried those dumb things.

1:06:26Have you? And it's interesting.

1:06:28It does work, but the, the lack of feedback is a huge issue.

1:06:32Have you ever, uh, you're probably too young. Do you remember the Atari 400?

1:06:39No, no, I never had one. I didn't have a TV growing up, so I also didn't hold any console.

1:06:47Well, Google it right now. There were two, there were two sibling computers from Atari. These,

1:06:52these were like Apple two competitors, not game consoles. They have 400, the 400 and the 800 now.

1:06:59Okay. Now like any good computer, I recognize these now. Yes. Now, like any good computer

1:07:05company, the bigger number was the better computer. And so the Atari 800 is what you

1:07:10think of as a mid eighties home computer. It was age. It had a keyboard, it had a bunch of

1:07:16weird buttons. That's all right. 400 was cheaper. And the keyboard, I mean, how would you describe

1:07:22this? Oh, you know what it is? It's the old style McDonald's kiosk. Yes. Yes. They're like,

1:07:30Oh, big Mac. Hold on. Oh, no cheese. But they're constantly pressing with their thumbs, right?

1:07:40Gripping the side of the register because it's so hard to get it to register all the key.

1:07:45I will not, I will not only I'm making a note to myself, I will not only put this,

1:07:49a link to this in the show notes. I will try to get this as the album art for this segment

1:07:54of the conversation. So you could just, just look at the album art in your podcast pair. It's just,

1:08:00they didn't click at all. You can't quite tell that they don't click, but it's,

1:08:05and I re I didn't own one of these, but I remember seeing him in a store and all,

1:08:10every one of my friends, even ones who weren't as enthusiastic, well, none of them were as

1:08:15enthusiastic about computers, but even the least enthusiastic about computers, friends that I had,

1:08:24everybody agreed. This was the stupidest keyboard ever made. Well, let's think about keyboards. It's

1:08:29so weird. You can argue the refinements all you want, right? You can argue all kinds of different

1:08:37things like, like switch clickiness and types of switches and butterfly versus not and throw and

1:08:44all of that stuff. However, if you throw a keyboard in an average person, they can make a very valid

1:08:51and honest assessment of whether or not it's easy for them to type on it. Because none of that

1:08:57matters if it's not easy to type on it. Like you can research the most wonderful click and all that.

1:09:03And if that's your bag, go at it, you know, have fun, right? Enjoy. But every individual person

1:09:10can make a very sound assessment of their own response to that keeper. They're like, Oh,

1:09:15I don't like this. Right? Do like my wife is, you know, hates the short throw keyboards does not

1:09:19even really a huge fan of the longer throw new ones because she likes a deeper, a deeper press,

1:09:25which I empathize with. I do too, but she also hates clicks. So it's like a weird thing. It's

1:09:31a dichotomy, but every person gets sort of evaluate that that's why user interfaces like this.

1:09:35I think people get to especially computer people get so defensive about, Oh, look at all the design

1:09:42that went into X or look at all of the energy and behind the scenes effort that made X or Y or Z

1:09:48happen. This is very similar to the whole era of short throw MacBook keyboards, right? The easily

1:09:54jammable keyboards, slimmest ever most beautiful design, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It didn't

1:09:59work. Right. People use it and it doesn't work. So something like keyboard like this,

1:10:04I'm sure somebody in Atari was like, look, there's less moving parts in this than ever before.

1:10:09There's less wear and tear. This is a miracle of design. And then somebody uses it the moment they

1:10:14look at it and even look at it, they're like, it's not going to be easy to use.

1:10:17- Yeah. That keyboard was clearly designed and sold by an accountant at Atari. Right?

1:10:25- Right. Because one single panel of pressure sensitive membranes versus key individual keys,

1:10:32and they're like, Oh my God, we can roll this off of a sheet. It'll cost us pennies on the dollar.

1:10:36- Right. And it was probably waterproof. I don't know. Or at least it was waterproof.

1:10:40If you drop water between the keys, cause there's plastic membrane covering all of them.

1:10:44- It was probably selling point. Like I mean,

1:10:47- What flat keyboards that do work, I guess the iPad is a good example. Right. And the phone,

1:10:53but even there because it's software, not just projected, you get the popovers to tell you which

1:10:59keys you're pressing. So it could work. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure Apple has thought

1:11:04of other ideas, but I'm not surprised that the keyboard in the air from VisionOS is not great

1:11:11to type on. And again, if you just need to enter like a B right there, or I don't know,

1:11:17up to 10 characters. - Yeah. Or a six digit passcode or something like that.

1:11:21- Oh yeah. And for example, I think when it first boots up, just like the other devices,

1:11:27you can't use optic ID the first time after a cold boot, you have to type in your six digit passcode.

1:11:33So typing a passcode six, or even if you set it to eight digits or whatever, to be more secure,

1:11:38that's not too bad. But actually writing, or even just having a messages chat where you're,

1:11:46maybe you're writing brief sentences, but you're going back and forth, it's not gonna fly.

1:11:51What else? Cameras. I didn't really talk about the cameras in my review.

1:11:57- Are you talking about in terms of recording? - Yeah, recording, like shooting.

1:12:02- Yeah, okay. Gotcha. - And that was one of the things that made it,

1:12:06that I had to cut. Well, I didn't have to cut, but I mean, I gotta draw the line somewhere.

1:12:11But it is unusual because there's only two hardware buttons on the Vision Pro, right? There's

1:12:16the digital crown, which spins and you'd spin it mostly to go in and out of reality. And if you

1:12:23just adjust your eye a little bit, when you start spinning it and it adjusts the immersive

1:12:30environment you have currently selected, and right next to it is a volume indicator. And if you just

1:12:36look at the volume indicator instead, then you're spinning the volume. Very nice. Two things. One,

1:12:42on the left is your visual immersiveness and on the right is volume, spinning the crown. Tap the

1:12:49crown, it takes you to what they, it's not the home screen, it's the home view because it always

1:12:56is super important. You know, your apps don't disappear. On the iPhone, you hit home, you go

1:13:01home and your app disappears and you go to the home screen. In Vision OS, the home view is like

1:13:08a temporary HUD that appears in front of whatever you're doing at any time. That's a single tap.

1:13:14And a long tap on the digital, this is all through the digital crown, long tap re-centers your current

1:13:20view. So if you've turned to the side, if you were previously laying in bed and now you're sitting up

1:13:28in bed and all your windows are now in the wrong position, just long press it where you want them

1:13:33to be centered, where your current gaze is and it goes there. So for the most part, the only button

1:13:38I ever touch on the thing is the crown. I tap it, I long press it and I spin it. The other button,

1:13:45which they just called the top button, I love it. I wonder, I always wonder how much time and I,

1:13:53you know, I think they probably spend a lot of time. Like, should they give it a clever name?

1:13:57- Dozens of names and somebody's like, just call it the top button.

1:14:00- Yeah. On the iPhone, it's just the side button. So the top button is hardly ever used.

1:14:09The most common use case I've had for it is taking screenshots. You take a screenshot by pressing

1:14:14both buttons and releasing at the same time. But if you just single press it, it's like a capture

1:14:19button. That is my guess as to if there was a specific name for the top button, they were

1:14:26gonna call it the capture button, which some people like, I forget who, if it was Gurman or somebody

1:14:31else who's rumored that the iPhone 16 next year is going to have a quote unquote capture button.

1:14:38But you single tap it and it takes you into capture mode. So camera is not an app in Vision

1:14:47OS. There is no camera app. And I checked with developer friends, there are no APIs to access

1:14:54the camera. So you can't make a camera app. I mean, maybe someday, but as of right now,

1:15:00you couldn't have Halide for Vision OS because there are no APIs for the camera.

1:15:05And I believe that that's entirely about privacy and not wanting to avoid the,

1:15:12like when, I guess it was like what, 10, 12 years ago, whenever Google Glass came out

1:15:21and there was this sort of society wide, well, not all of society, but the sort of society who might

1:15:29encounter a Google Glassware in person. This idea that, hey, this is creepy that these people have

1:15:36a camera on their face and they may or may not be recording you or taking your photo and you don't

1:15:41even know what they're doing. And I remember it was a thing. I mean, I'm sure you remember too,

1:15:46like in San Francisco in particular, there were bars that put up signs like no Google Glass.

1:15:51- Right. Yep. And I think-

1:15:54- One of our reporters famously got kind of accosted over it, but back when he was at a

1:15:59previous publication, but still, yeah. It was definitely a thing, a social thing that I think

1:16:04Apple wanted to dodge very, very crisply as they're trying to roll this thing out. They didn't want

1:16:09to, you were going to have to tackle how to handle those social norms and how to talk about that kind

1:16:15of thing. But if you're going to do that, you should do these things one at a time. Right?

1:16:19- Right.

1:16:19- Which I think like Meta is doing it very cleverly with the Ray-Bans thing. They have

1:16:25these Meta glasses. They do record, but they don't do squat else right now. But they have these

1:16:31internal AI features that they've been testing and playing around with. And you know that, oh,

1:16:35you can do all kinds of other assistant things with them. But right now, all they do is their

1:16:40camera glasses. And Snap broke that ground for them to Snap's credit. And like everybody kind

1:16:44of goes, oh yeah, those are those glasses cameras and probably some Google Glass stuff woven in

1:16:50there. Right? But like, I think that's not a battle that Apple wanted to tackle with this phase

1:16:56of this thing. They got so many other things to convince people up with this.

1:16:59- Yeah. What they've done, so by making it sort of a system level thing is, and again,

1:17:05it's very hard for me to, I guess I got to stand in front of the mirror and play with it more to

1:17:10see it because you can't see what other people see. But what I've seen in Apple's own media demos to

1:17:17me is that when you Snap a photo using the camera button, so you hit it once to go to capture mode.

1:17:25And then there's just a simple two-way segmented controller, video or still, or I guess photo,

1:17:32it says. And then you can just stare at whichever mode you want, photo or video, and do a finger

1:17:38tap and it turns yellow. And it does have the camera app UI aesthetic with the sort of etched

1:17:46Leica style version of San Francisco as the font. But it's really super simple. All you,

1:17:53there's only two modes are photo and video. It only shoots spatial photos and spatial videos.

1:17:59There's no other way to shoot. And if you're taking a still photo, then to shoot it, you

1:18:06select photo in the mode and then you tap the button again and it takes a still photo.

1:18:11And what happens to anybody who's looking at you is that the screen on the front of your Vision Pro

1:18:17flashes white, like a flash. If you see a white flash while they're tapping a physical button

1:18:27on top, they can't. And I think that is part of the part of it, the bigger sign, because nobody,

1:18:34a lay person has no idea what the white flash means, but they do know that you're pressing

1:18:39a button right above your eye, right up right above your left eye, which kind of looks like

1:18:44snapping the shutter button of a camera, right? I mean, there's the physical press of the button

1:18:49is the bigger hint, you know, as to what you're doing. And then when you shoot a video,

1:18:55I forget what it shows, but it's some sort of like a Cylon animation that's white that goes back and

1:19:01forth across the visor to show that you are recording a video at this time. So there is some

1:19:11visual indication, but it's because it's completely abstract. I'm not quite sure how like a lay person

1:19:17out on the street would know, oh, this creep with the weird goggles is shooting a video because his

1:19:22visor is showing a white light, but they do traveling back and forth, but they do show

1:19:28something. Right. And, but the bigger thing is that you have to press this physical button.

1:19:32You can't just like the rest. Your hands gotta be up at the level of your eyes and like doing

1:19:37the thing. Yeah. Much in the same motion as you'd have with a camera, not an iPhone,

1:19:42but a real Tesla or whatever. Yeah. So the photos and videos, they're not quite what I expected.

1:19:51It's weird because they so perfectly match your first person perspective within the headset.

1:19:58When you replay them in the headset, it's, it really is like being there. It's way more like

1:20:07being there than when you look at the spatial videos that you have shot over the last two or

1:20:12three months on your iPhone 15, because it's, it's like a one-to-one match of what you would see

1:20:18anyway. And so if you sit in a seat and you stay perfectly still, and you're looking at, say your

1:20:26living room with vision pro on your face, and then you go into capture mode and shoot either a still

1:20:35or a video and you don't move at all. And then you look at that still go to the photos app and open

1:20:42up that still, and you still haven't moved. It looks like you're looking at reality because it's

1:20:48exactly what you would see if you weren't looking at a photo. Right. And then if you move your head,

1:20:54even just a little, it is like, Whoa, what's wrong. This device is broken because all of a

1:20:59sudden it doesn't move or it doesn't move to match your head. Right. It's, it's really weird in the

1:21:06moment to go back and review the photo because it just, it doesn't look like you're looking at a

1:21:10photo or a video. It just looks like you're, it looks like you're looking at a replay of what you

1:21:15just did. That is interesting because the FOVs match precisely and you've got a stereoscopic

1:21:24capture mode and a stereoscopic display mode. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I'm

1:21:29not quite sure what to make of it. And I still think like when I wrote about the spatial video

1:21:33experience shooting with iPhone, I think it's so hard to judge in the moment because I think all

1:21:37of these things, their true utility is really only going to happen when they're old enough to have

1:21:44any kind of nostalgic value. Right. Right. Like test shots in the moment or whatever,

1:21:49like it just happened. I just saw it happen. But it's, Oh, this, you know, my kid's 14 and they

1:21:54were six in this picture. That's a lot different thing. But it, but it doesn't because the,

1:22:00the perspective and you can't zoom in or zoom out. It's, it's just capturing the first person

1:22:06perspective that you naturally see with the field of view that you're supposed to have

1:22:10while doing pass through video. So it's not, it's not something you'd really want to use

1:22:19as a camera. Right. Like I kind of, and I almost. I always had a hard time envisioning that. I mean,

1:22:26I know that they wanted to build this and they needed to build the functionality to shoot spatial

1:22:30video in which makes total sense. I just am not going to run and grab that headset and put it on

1:22:37to take spatial video, walk around the house. I just don't see it. I could be wrong. Mine comes

1:22:42in a couple of weeks. We'll see, maybe it'll happen. I mean, it'll certainly happen when

1:22:46I'm testing it. Oh, do it on purpose. Right. Because I'm me. Right. But are you telling the

1:22:52average person that they're going to say, Oh my God, we're going to do the blowing out of the

1:22:56candles now. Hold on. Let me go get my headset. Yeah. Yeah. With your iPhone, I guess. Yeah.

1:23:02There's something interesting. There's like a mismatch between the social nature of photos,

1:23:09how we all like show people photos on our phone or the slide shows where that we send to each other,

1:23:16like the daily slide show, which by the way, is probably one of the best acting Apple features

1:23:21I've seen built in a decade as far as photos go. Anyway, those daily slide shows that it delivers

1:23:27you, that it auto creates you incredible work by that team. So whoever's working on that good job,

1:23:32because those things hit you right in the fields, man. Oh my God. They're sometimes

1:23:38they're devastating. I mean, in a good way, hopefully. And years into that feature,

1:23:44I still, at this point I'm like, well, they surely they've run out of photos that are going to give

1:23:48me the fields from my library and I'm going to start getting reruns and no, they just dredging

1:23:54up these pictures of my son when he was three years old in 2007. Oh my God. I don't even

1:24:01remember that trip to the slide show of your son. And then in the background, it's a father and son,

1:24:07but I can't see if it's just something you're like, Oh my God, I'm dying over here. Anyhow,

1:24:11long story short, like those kinds of experiences I think are one of those things where you're

1:24:16sharing it with somebody or you send it to your wife or you send it to a group of friends because

1:24:20they were on that trip or whatever. And it's just the vision pro, which you mentioned in your

1:24:25review, which I think other people did as well. It is inherently an isolating experience, right?

1:24:30To some degree. Now the pass through attempts to mitigate that by showing you the world around you.

1:24:35And of course the eyesight is for the other people so that they don't feel isolated from you,

1:24:40even though you have it on, but it's inherently a singular solo experience for now until they figure

1:24:48out the interconnectivity of it all more or make it so that opening multiple of these in a household

1:24:53is more likely AKA it's a lot cheaper and a lot lighter, but that's kind of where the taking

1:24:58photos and looking at that kind of mismatches with the reality of how we actually do those things.

1:25:04IRL. Whereas that kind of feature that, that look back feature, a slideshow feature

1:25:09that matches exactly how we consume photos. It hits us personally. And then we're able to share

1:25:15with others in the same state that we look at it. Cause it's like, if you send a spatial video that

1:25:20you shot to somebody they're like, cool, this is a regular video shot, just maybe slightly lower

1:25:24resolution. Whereas you looking at it, at it in your vision pro, you're like, no, it's really

1:25:29cool. Look, you can do all this. And then, but right now that's a solo isolated experience.

1:25:35Trenton Larkin Yeah. I sort of feel like I was thrown off with my expectations where

1:25:40I remember back in June when they announced this thinking, I wasn't alone. I think probably half

1:25:46the people watching the keynote all had the same thought at some point towards the end of the

1:25:50vision pro segment, which was, Oh, wouldn't it be cool if the next iPhone could shoot video like

1:25:54that? Right. I mean, it's kind of obvious that if it wasn't coordinated to come two or three months

1:26:01later with the iPhone 15, that it would come with the iPhone 16. And it did. And it was pretty cool.

1:26:08It is pretty cool. I'm glad I shot, I've shot some over the last few months, especially at family

1:26:13of things with kids. But I've been thinking the whole time that shooting spatial video with the

1:26:20phone is the B team spatial video. Cause it's with the phone and the lenses are too close to

1:26:26each other. And the one lens is really only a 0.5 with a small sensor and blah, blah, blah. So it's

1:26:33only 10 ADP and it's only 30 frames per second. And it's the sort of graininess cause they've

1:26:41got to do this tight sensor crop on the ultra wide to get an image like the 1.5 or the 1.0,

1:26:47blah, blah, blah. And boy, when we get the vision pro, however goofy it'll be to shoot video while

1:26:53you're wearing this in a social situation, that'll be the really good spatial video.

1:26:58And I kind of think, no, I actually don't think the spatial video is better. I think it is more

1:27:04personal and it is more, it is certainly more first person perspective, but I don't think

1:27:10it's better. And I think the only time I'll end up using it is when I happen to be already using

1:27:18vision pro and something serendipitous happens. Oh my God, I got to get a picture of that guy.

1:27:22Guy comes in, like I'm on the airplane. I put the vision pro on to set up and watch a movie

1:27:29or something like that. And the guy next to me is taking his shoes off, picking his toes. And I'm

1:27:32like, I got to get a picture of this pig. I can't imagine like the scenario they showed at WWDC where

1:27:41the dad at the birthday party goes to get the vision pro and puts it on to shoot the birthday

1:27:46cake. I can't see not using your phone for that. Even if it is slightly more three-dimensional

1:27:52shooting from the vision pro because the cameras are eye width apart instead of right next to each

1:27:57other. I don't think the quality is even better, let alone whatever weirdness people might feel

1:28:03about being the dad at the party who puts a $3,500 headset on. I don't even think it gets that far.

1:28:09I think even somebody who's not the least bit embarrassed about wearing it in front of a party

1:28:14full of kids and other parents. This is a distinct benefit from that. Even if you're not the least

1:28:19bit embarrassed or self-conscious about it, I still don't think you would do it, but we shall see.

1:28:24If you want to long-term convince people to keep doing this, to keep shooting spatial video,

1:28:30I think, and maybe this is just an iOS 18 thing, but you really need a display mode on the phone

1:28:37that has parallax, right? You need to like be able to play back the video, tilt your phone,

1:28:42and use the accelerometer in the phone and the depth information to basically give you a 3D-ish

1:28:48video right on your phone. And it's possible. You can do it. I've seen it. I actually saw it happen

1:28:53back when they first introduced the depth camera. There were some developers that hacked together

1:28:57a version of that back then. So I'm sure Apple can do it now, first party in a much crisper fashion.

1:29:03But I think it's a way to tell people this is a special kind of video. It does a cool thing. And

1:29:10it's an advertisement for Vision Pro because they're like, "What if you wanted to see this

1:29:13in real 3D? Like you wanted to step into the photo, go watch it on your $3,500 TV." So I think

1:29:20it's, I think that's for me, bang for your buck, I think that will be coming, but it needs to happen.

1:29:26- All right, let me take a break here. I'll thank our second sponsor of the show. And it is our

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1:31:14it's almost too good to be true for what you can do in a phone web browser. Why does Squarespace

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1:31:30what do I do to get a website?" Send them to Squarespace. Give them my URL. They'll know

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1:32:02to squarespace.com/talkshow. So my gimmick, or I always say gimmick, but my framework for my review

1:32:12was sort of shamelessly playing off Steve Jobs' "Three Things in One," because I really see this

1:32:18as three things in one. There's this 1.0 hardware. There's the platform for spatial computing, where

1:32:26you've got windows, you got notes, you got your mail, you got your messages, you got Safari,

1:32:31you can make a new Safari window, you could have two windows, each of them with multiple tabs.

1:32:35You can have a thing in the background. Who knows what other apps people are going to come out with,

1:32:39but you can sit there and do your computing in VisionOS. It is super, super credible.

1:32:46Credible meaning you can actually do it today. If you can work in iPad today, if you can get your

1:32:51work done in iPad, on an iPad, in iPadOS, you can definitely get the same work done in VisionOS,

1:32:58and I think be a lot more productive or feel mentally freer because you can spread out more

1:33:05and have your app side by side. You don't have the single rectangle constraint where

1:33:10you have to visualize that the other windows are left, right, top, or bottom, wherever they are,

1:33:17which I grew used to. I spent many years working iPad first, anytime I was away from my desk.

1:33:23And you're going to go used to it, like, "Oh, I know this stuff is over there."

1:33:26You're invisible, but hanging out over there. And I know this stuff is invisible hanging out

1:33:30over there, and I can quickly swipe to it. But with this, there's no swiping. They're just hanging

1:33:35in there and always accessible. So it's even less cognitive load to remember the spatial relationship.

1:33:41Cognitive load is the phrase I was looking for. That's exactly it. I think that iPad

1:33:47productivity fans in particular are really going to love and sing the praises of VisionOS.

1:33:54I like it, but I also at best like iPadOS, right? And then the third leg of my review,

1:34:03and this to me is where the product is simply spectacular, is as an entertainment device to watch

1:34:09movies and these 3D immersive things. And I've tinkered around with some games, but not a ton.

1:34:15I just ran out of time and I'm just, I figured somebody else will cover the gaming part for today.

1:34:21But the movie watching experience, I just can't let this podcast go by. I guess it's supposed to

1:34:30be my job to put into words, hard to describe things. Isn't that so funny? Sometimes you just,

1:34:37the words are, it's a weird thing because you know what the right words may be, but you also end up in

1:34:47this place where you're like, but that seems too orderly. Those words in that order seem so obvious.

1:34:53My job is not just to bring the words, it's also to put it in a unique way, unique order, right?

1:34:59And you get kind of stymied by this, but sometimes the orderly sense, the orderly

1:35:04order of the words is the right order. I just don't know how to convey in words how big

1:35:13the movies, how legitimately like IMAX with an X, not with the Apple way, like a big IMAX movie

1:35:23screen in front of you, big, like you just, it seems impossible that you can do this. And the

1:35:29regular viewing of regular videos, like when you bust out a YouTube video from Safari into a

1:35:37standalone video player in a window, or the way that the videos look when you play them from all

1:35:43of these iPad apps like Peacock and Paramount plus, et cetera, are scaled to the size of your

1:35:51physical environment. So you can make it as big as your living room wall, however big that is,

1:35:57but that's the biggest it can get it because that's the context of the room you're in,

1:36:01right? And that is huge. And like I wrote in my review, watching football on Sunday, watching the

1:36:08first half of the one game in Vision Pro in my living room where I have a 77 inch OLED TV that

1:36:14I spent $5,000 on a couple of years ago, expensive TV that at 77, I know it's not the biggest TV you

1:36:22can get, but at the time it was the biggest OLED TV you can get. It's pretty, 77 inches is pretty

1:36:26big, but to be able to watch this football game in a window that looked like four of them arranged in

1:36:36a quadrant, maybe even bigger, I guess, even bigger than four of my 77 inch TVs, and then switch back

1:36:43to watching on TV because my wife came downstairs and was going to watch with me and I wanted to be

1:36:47a real human being and take this. Yeah, for an afternoon, while I'm in this crunch time where

1:36:55she's really graciously tolerated an enormous amount of face time with me while I was wearing

1:37:02the thing. Not uppercase face time, but just actual human being face time. So I took it off

1:37:08and I was like, "Oh God, I'm not going to..." I didn't complain to her at the time because I

1:37:12didn't want it, you know, she'd be like, "Oh, just put the damn thing back on." I really wanted to

1:37:16watch these games with her, but I was sitting there thinking, "Oh my God, my TV is so small."

1:37:21And that's the normal Paramount+ iPad app that I can only make the video look as big as my living

1:37:30room wall. But that's big, the size of my living room wall, and that alone makes my 77 inch TV

1:37:38look too small. But when you're in Apple's TV app and you go into their virtual theater mode,

1:37:45it looks immense. You get two adjustments, you can go front row, middle row, back row,

1:37:53and you can go floor level or balcony level. And I think, I actually don't know this, I

1:37:59realized that while I was just saying that, I'm not quite sure if you can fake being front row

1:38:08from the balcony, which really wouldn't be able to exist in a real theater, but I think that they let

1:38:12you because why not? Why not give you an impossible balcony? But it's so big. Like when you sit in the

1:38:20front row, the screen is... it's not like being in a bad front row movie seat, like when you go

1:38:26to the movie theater. Is it more like IMAX? Because remember, even in the front row in IMAX,

1:38:32you feel enveloped, but you're not craning because the IMAX screens, the real IMAXes,

1:38:38they're like 75 feet from the front row, right? Like the actual surface.

1:38:42JS - Yeah, it's a little more like that where it's like a generous theater that didn't put front row

1:38:47seats neck craningly close, right? It's not painful.

1:38:51JS - They don't have those floor seats that are right down there in the front. It's the front row

1:38:55of the right above the handicap seats or whatever.

1:38:57JS - Right. You know, I don't know. I think everybody's been stuck with like front row left

1:39:03seats for a blockbuster movie. And you know, there's always somebody in the group or the

1:39:09couple who's to blame for being a little late to the theater. Those dirty looks you get where

1:39:15you're like two hours at this perspective. JS - My wife and I have definitely had discussions

1:39:19where we're going to big opening night Marvel movies for the kids and I didn't buy the tickets.

1:39:25And I'm like, I show up and we sit down and I'm like, so I'm just curious who chose the back row?

1:39:30I'm just curious. Like kids, you know, we can't hear anything. We're out of the sound pocket,

1:39:35you know, and you go on a diatribe about 3D sound.

1:39:38JS - So it's it their virtual front row seat is like a front row seat.

1:39:43JS - Always the best seat in the house.

1:39:44JS - You might plausibly want. It defaults to floor middle, which I guess is their guess as to the

1:39:51best for most people. I just can't convey how impossibly big the movie screen seems.

1:39:59And you I know that they are little postage size screens in front of my eyeballs. And I

1:40:06don't understand how in most of these other apps, I can only make video look 15 feet diagonal,

1:40:1620 feet diagonal. It's all FOV, right? It's all I think obviously there's been you noticed it a

1:40:23little bit. Some other reviews notice some fringing at the edges and some vignetting and things,

1:40:27which is understandable given how broad the FOV is. But I think given the amount of resolution

1:40:34that they have and how well that they have handled to the degree that they can, the ability to

1:40:40display things edge to edge on those screens and like have them have it be viable. That's where

1:40:46you get that extra because remember, on a stand on an HMD before this, but on a head mounted display

1:40:52before the vision pro, including up to the most recent additions, you're using a very small patch

1:40:57of the overall lens, because they could only the resolution is limited. And the foveation,

1:41:04the edge to edge sharpness of it is tough, because you have to correct for all that aberration and

1:41:09correct for all the curvature and all of that. And the processing power, this isn't there to do it.

1:41:14And so you end up with the actually a much smaller angle of your eye of your vision.

1:41:19That's actually able to be used. That's why you can see the headset around your eyes,

1:41:23right? Like when you look when you're in there, and that is much lower to a much

1:41:27lesser degree on the vision pro. Yeah, it's just incredible. But the catch is it is completely

1:41:35isolated, right? And I don't even think I, you know, I didn't delve into this in my review,

1:41:40but I know what everybody's thinking in the same way that everybody was thinking with the virtual

1:41:44keyboard. Well, what about projecting a keyboard on the table? Everybody is thinking, Well, what if

1:41:49me and my wife, or me and my spouse and my kids, we all get vision headsets, maybe three years down

1:41:56the road when they're $1,000, or $1,500. And all three of us can have one on at the same time.

1:42:04And we could use share play to watch the same movie at the same time. Maybe, you know, maybe,

1:42:11maybe even your avatar is sitting next to you in the theater, whatever. Yeah, maybe. And yeah,

1:42:16your persona is next to you. And you'll do that. That might be a thing. I mean, it's such an

1:42:22obvious idea, right? There's every single person who's thinking about this problem of,

1:42:26okay, this is an amazing movie watching experience, but it's completely isolated. How do you make it

1:42:32social? It will give everybody a headset, right? And surely Tim Cook would be in favor of this too,

1:42:38right? Oh, yes. One per person, not one per household. Right. Let's, you know, Tim,

1:42:46we want to invest some R&D in a feature that would inspire families to buy a vision headset for

1:42:52everybody in the family. I don't think that's a hard sell. Unlimited budget. I don't think you're

1:42:58gonna have a hard sell with Tim on that. But is that actually sociable when you're sitting on,

1:43:05in the real world, sitting on a couch next to your sweetheart? I don't think it is. I don't think it

1:43:12is. I do think it is. Your son is off to college. If you want to watch a movie with him, you fire it

1:43:19up. You both sit down, you watch Avatar together. He's a hundred miles away, 80 miles away. You're

1:43:25in your living room, but you feel like you're there together. That's when it's social. Otherwise,

1:43:30you should not be wearing, just take them off, sit on the couch together.

1:43:34Right. And I do think that's insurmountable. I think it's part of human nature. Then if you are

1:43:41on the couch with your sweetheart, or even a friend, even just a friend, a pal to watch

1:43:48the game together, you want to be watching the same screen, not a simulation of the same screen

1:43:55and two headsets. But again, you're right. You want to maximize the sociability of whatever it

1:44:00is that's at your opportunity. And if the two of you are in the same room, clearly the most social

1:44:06thing is to not have anything on your frigging face and just be together. But like you said,

1:44:12perfect example, my son off in college in Boston, new season of Loki comes out or something like

1:44:18that, that we would like to watch together. We could set up a shared time and do it. Then I could

1:44:24see it being phenomenal. And that would be an improvement over what is available in the current

1:44:29day. But I think that's, that's like the crux of it, right? You have to look, if you look at it

1:44:35through the lens of like, why is this better than sitting on the couch next to somebody and

1:44:40watching it? The very simple answer is it's not don't, don't, don't treat it as if it is right.

1:44:45It's what does it do this different? What does it do this impossible? Now? Those are the things

1:44:50it was built for. You don't, extremists can go into it going, I'm going to take this to the

1:44:57extreme and I'm going to use it for everything. And I'm going to see, well, why is this better

1:45:00than next? Well, the answer for a lot of those things is probably going to be, it's not, it's

1:45:04not better than doing that. Yeah. And as much as I said, Oh my God, my 77 inch TV looks tiny.

1:45:11And five minutes later, I forgot about that. You get used to anything. I've gotten immersed in

1:45:15movies, watching on an iPad on an airplane before. I do remember John, we used to get immersed

1:45:20watching on 24 inch tube TVs. It felt like the biggest cinematic experience we're watching.

1:45:27Across the room. Yeah, exactly. You're watching Die Hard on that. You're just like, Oh my God,

1:45:32what's next? And it's like this, this trinitron curved TV we're watching. So yeah, that's the

1:45:39power of movies, I guess. One of my favorite stories from my childhood was my friend, Joey,

1:45:44his dad was a lawyer. And I guess it was probably around 1982 or three or so. Empire Strikes Back

1:45:54came out in 1980. And so this would have been like around our ninth or 10th birthday. And Joey's dad

1:46:02was a lawyer, like a criminal lawyer, and he knew some people. And this is before good movies were

1:46:09available to purchase on VHS. Okay. And Joey had a sleepover birthday party. And his dad said he had

1:46:16a big surprise for us. And he had a totally illegal copy of the Empire Strikes Back on VHS. But

1:46:25it was the full aspect ratio 2.35 to one, but it wasn't letterboxed. It was squished into a four to

1:46:37three frame. Nice. Now where he got this, who would ever make this this way? I don't know.

1:46:44And we didn't even know none of us had ever heard of the word letterboxing at the time.

1:46:49Even though I was a nerd, obviously at the time, I'd never really thought about aspect ratios,

1:46:57right? I'd just never really considered the fact that my TV had a different aspect ratio than movie

1:47:04theaters and that Star Wars movies were different. It was so squished, but we were so excited because

1:47:11it was an impossibility to watch a Star Wars movie at home. And the weirdest thing is as squished as

1:47:17it was, 10 minutes in, yeah, we got used to it. And I just remember we spent like 10 minutes like,

1:47:24"Where did you get this? Where did you get this?" He wouldn't tell us. He wouldn't explain it. He's

1:47:27like, "Just enjoy some popcorn, have some soda. The pizza will be here in 10 minutes. I'll bring

1:47:31it down." And we're all like, "Why is it so squished? Why is it squished? This looks weird.

1:47:36What's going on?" And then 10 minutes in, we just watched it for the next two hours and we're

1:47:40excited. Yeah. I mean, that's the power of movies, man. And human adaptability.

1:47:48Right. So no, the best way to watch a movie is I think right now that you can get in your home is

1:47:55to go pre-order a Vision Pro right now. There's no way to watch a movie better right now that you

1:48:02could buy. But the best way to watch a movie with people you know is still going to be to watch it

1:48:07on your TV. Or in a movie theater. Well, or in a movie, yeah. In a shared space.

1:48:13In a shared experience. Yeah. Hey, did you... This is a question I had about the movies,

1:48:17because the clip that I was most impressed by and most excited about was a native

1:48:243D movie being displayed in native 3D on the Vision Pro and that was Avatar.

1:48:30Yeah. Right. So Avatar specifically, I just, I love Jim Cameron. I love all of his movies.

1:48:34I don't care what you think about Avatar. I love the Papyrus. I love all of it.

1:48:37I'm fine with the whole thing. However, the 3D on 3D, like the shot for 3D, which Jim Cameron

1:48:45actually shoots for 3D, not just post processes or thinks about it in hindsight or does it

1:48:50begrudgingly, he actually treats it as a first party medium. So the shot for 3D experience

1:48:55on the Vision Pro, did you get a chance to try any of those kinds of movies?

1:48:58I watched like 10 minutes of Avatar Way of Water, which I haven't seen yet, which because my,

1:49:06a, my wife is not an Avatar fan and I am... It's not my favorite Jim Cameron movie, but I definitely

1:49:14want to watch it, but I've literally been saving it for this device. But in the process of this

1:49:21concentrated six day review period, I've never had, there was never a point where I had three

1:49:26hours to watch the whole movie. Yeah. It's just a light lift. I knew I wanted to try it before I

1:49:31wrote my review. So I just fired it up and found a scene like 45 minutes, just, I have no idea what

1:49:38was going on in the scene, but I watched five or 10 minutes of it in there in the fake Disney,

1:49:45Hollywood theater. And it's really good, I think. And I hate 3D theatrical movies. I hate them.

1:49:55Hate them. The only, I forget the last one I watched. I think the last one I watched was Up,

1:50:01where, and it was, you know, when it was new and in the theater, that's a while ago,

1:50:05but we went and we went to the 3D one because it was the only one we could get tickets for.

1:50:10And I know, I mean, I don't, it's not like I can't watch them. And I remember coming out of it

1:50:14with my wife and son. And I remember thinking like, I don't remember the second half of that

1:50:20movie. And I've read about it since. There is like a cognitive thing where there's a certain

1:50:26aspect of 3D movies where you're, you've got like sunglasses on in a movie theater to get

1:50:35that effect, you know, and to separate the two channels. And it like, it doesn't give me a

1:50:39headache, but it gives me like a pressure in my forehead. And like when I'm at Disney World and

1:50:47we go on one of the attractions that has like a 10 minute 3D movie and there's a bunch of them.

1:50:54Those don't bother me. It's like something about like getting a half an hour or 45 minutes in

1:51:01that starts to like, I don't even know what just happened, but I just know that I didn't like it.

1:51:05And I've always known that they look way too dim because you're wearing sunglasses.

1:51:11I thought that Avatar, again, I only watched about five to 10 minutes of it. And I don't even know

1:51:17what the hell was going on or who these, who the alien, I don't even know what, but I just was

1:51:21just looking at it. I kind of forgot that it was 3D five minutes in, right? It just, and again,

1:51:29cause the other thing too, that you get with vision pro watching an Avatar is there being in the best

1:51:35seat of the house is really important because being off center or off access in any way in a 3D

1:51:43movie really throws, throws the whole experience off because you get all sorts of distortion and

1:51:49stuff like that. So I think, I think it's, it's going to make me rethink whether I'd watch a movie

1:51:57in 3D or not. I'll definitely watch. One of the first movies I watch on this thing is going to be

1:52:02way of the water, but I think it solves all the problems. I think cause you have a perfect

1:52:06perspective, perfect brightness and no lenticular shutter glasses. And that's in the end that like

1:52:14whatever else in addition to dimming it's it's I think the other cognitive thing is the way that

1:52:21like your two eyes are like a 12th of a second off from each other or something like that. I don't

1:52:26know what the math is, but right. Because it's like a, it scans like left to right. Yeah. Right.

1:52:31Something like that. And you don't get any of it with this. And so I feel like, Oh, total win.

1:52:36I did go through Apple's immersive 3D things that are shot for 3D or not all of them yet,

1:52:42but they have a couple they're spectacular. They're stunning. And they are way more like IMAX.

1:52:50If anything, they're like the Disney attraction, Soren. I know, you know, Soren.

1:52:55But in the way that sore is sworn IMAX, I think it must be.

1:52:59If it's not IMAX trademarked, it's, it's like the same sort of concepts. Right. And I'm almost

1:53:09positive that Epcot's is IMAX. I am not totally positive if Disneyland is, but maybe it is.

1:53:16Right. But for anybody out there who's never been on the ride, sore and S A U.

1:53:22I say S O A R I N like you're soaring through the air. It's like a big, huge spherical IMAX

1:53:31movie screen. And then you sit in like a, what would you call it? Like a gondola, a swing,

1:53:36a big bench, a big long bench. And it takes you up in the air and it's supposed to simulate like

1:53:42you're flying through these fantastic parts of California when you're in the California one.

1:53:47And then in the Florida one, now you're all over the world, like Paris and Africa and wherever else.

1:53:53And you don't wear 3D glasses on Soren, but they've got a couple of Disney tricks where they play.

1:53:58Yeah. Cause they pull you up into it, up into the curve. Right. So they hang you inside the curve

1:54:04of it. It is, it is IMAX by the way, in both iterations. And they've updated it since 2001,

1:54:10obviously. But one of the things is there's three rows of seats. There's left, the left bank of

1:54:15seats, the middle bank and the right bank. And I've been on that ride in Florida. I have no

1:54:21exaggeration, probably like 30 times, maybe more. I mean, it's one of my favorite attractions. I just

1:54:26my family knows we get to Epcot, daddy wants to go on Soren. I just love it.

1:54:32But you've got a one out of three chance of being in the middle section.

1:54:38Yeah. And the middle one's the good one. It's so much better because from either side,

1:54:45it's all distorted. And all of a sudden the Eiffel tower looks like it's bent.

1:54:49And technically you want the middle top. Right.

1:54:51Because on the middle bottom, you got people's feet hanging.

1:54:54Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want middle top. So there's no feet, no flip-flops hanging in your view.

1:54:58But this, you know, the 3D immersions that Apple has are like that where you're not looking at a

1:55:07rectangular movie frame. Like when you look at Avatar, you're still looking at a 16 by nine or

1:55:12whatever his aspect ratio is a rectangular movie frame in a movie theater. And everything is in the

1:55:17movie. Everything is in the frame. Whereas these immersive things like this dinosaur thing that

1:55:22Apple has, not that there's two, there's, it's confusing because they've got two dinosaur things.

1:55:26They've got the app where the dinosaur comes through the wall. And then they've got this

1:55:31other thing that Jon Favreau directed where it's more like a fake documentary as though you could

1:55:39go back 300 million years and shoot a bunch of dinosaurs. But that one, you can turn your head

1:55:46180 degrees. That's what brings Soren to mind where like you don't have to stare straight ahead and

1:55:51look at a rectangle. You have like 180 degrees where you can like turn and look around and

1:55:57you direct your gaze. You might miss some of the action of what these dinosaurs are doing in front

1:56:02of you because you're looking over there on the side or something like that. Absolutely incredible.

1:56:08And it just, it seems like you're in, I haven't been to the Vegas sphere yet, but it seems like

1:56:15you're in something like that, like this giant, giant spherical screen projection thing. And it's

1:56:24bigger than your entire house, way bigger than your entire house, this environment that you're

1:56:30seemingly have a first person perspective in. And you can just turn your head around and see stuff.

1:56:36And it seems impossible that there's that many pixels because you think you're because of the

1:56:42foveated rendering, you think all of it, the whole 180 degrees spherical thing is all rendered at

1:56:49this incredible retina resolution when in fact, of course it's not, it's all big fat blurry pixels,

1:56:55except what you're staring at. But because it updates as soon as you move your head,

1:57:00it creates the illusion that it's all rendered at high resolution. Absolutely stunning. I really,

1:57:07I know, I get the feeling from the reviews I've gone through that there's sort of a consensus

1:57:13that, geez, this is way too expensive overall as a device. But I really do think that for

1:57:19entertainment purposes alone, like I said, I spent $5,000 on a TV a couple of years ago. I mean,

1:57:24if you've got the budget for something like that, $3,500 just for watching movies alone,

1:57:32if you're going to watch movies by yourself is not ridiculous. Even if it didn't have any of the

1:57:37productivity stuff, it's a credible product just for watching movies and these 3D things. It really

1:57:43is. And if you remember in the early days of home theater, I was at that time selling home theater

1:57:52equipment. And so in the early days of home theaters actually being a thing that was

1:57:56accessible, not just for millionaires, everybody was sort of building surround sound and home

1:58:02theaters. We sold a surprising amount of really high-end speakers and a surprising amount of

1:58:09these systems that allowed you to put hundreds of DVDs in them and basically choose a movie.

1:58:15And then the carousel of DVDs rotate around and it would pick the movie and play it for you

1:58:20automatically. And it seemed like a nonsense product that nobody would buy, but we sold this

1:58:26surprising amount of them because there are people out there that just want the absolute best home

1:58:32theater experience they could possibly buy, they could possibly achieve at home. And so I think

1:58:38that there is absolutely a market in and of itself just for if you fixate the working stuff and

1:58:44everything else. There's a bunch of people out there that are just going to look at this as

1:58:49the best possible way to watch a movie and be totally okay with that being the problem.

1:58:54Kevin Anthony Yeah, I really do think so. And it's,

1:58:58I really think that's the number one way to sell these things or to, like I concluded my review,

1:59:04if you're only going to try one thing, try that. And it's stunning. It's so hard to

1:59:09pretend like I don't know what this is and what it costs. But if you had showed this to me

1:59:17two years ago and didn't tell me it was an Apple product, because telling me it's an Apple product

1:59:22would give me some clue as to a maximum price ceiling. Just let me experience this and let me

1:59:28think that maybe it's from Bang & Olufsen or something. I don't know. And then you told me

1:59:35it costs $25,000. I wouldn't buy it for $25,000. But I might think, oh, that's what it costs. And

1:59:46that you could convince me. And again, the fragility, the overall fragility of the Vision Pro

1:59:53wouldn't make sense to equip in a theme park. But if it was the same visual and sound experience,

2:00:02but in a sort of, oh, we can have 5000 people a day come in and take it on and off for 10 minutes

2:00:09at a time. And you told me that Disney spent $50,000 on each one of them or something like that.

2:00:16I'd be like, oh, wow, that's a lot of money. But I guess that's the scale it costs to get

2:00:19in an effect that compelling, right? It's that compelling of an experience. And I'm not trying

2:00:26to tell people that you should think you're saving $20,000 because it's only $4,000 to buy it. But it

2:00:35is a credibly tens of thousand dollars visual experience, at least in terms of my lifetime.

2:00:44And from the starting point of what I expect from theater, it's not good. I guess that's about it.

2:00:50I mean, I don't know. What's your sense of the overall take from the reviewers?

2:00:55Jared: Yeah, I mean, I think it's nothing and nothing stuck out to me as shocking.

2:01:01I think there is, those of us who had tried it, and then even those of us who had just been paying

2:01:07close attention kind of assumed that it would be a product that showed real promise in some areas,

2:01:13that showed a lot of opportunities to get a lot better before it's good in other areas.

2:01:18I think that the sort of early adopters thing is always about the excuse. What is the excuse for me

2:01:25to adopt this so early? And I think the average consumer, I'm not really sure there is a

2:01:30compelling one. I think for anybody who considers themselves an early adopter, it seems so far,

2:01:36the movies and TV viewing, that experience of being able to watch stuff at home,

2:01:41that's your easiest excuse. And then the further down the line is the,

2:01:47I think I could be more productive. And I know Apple wants that to be the number one excuse.

2:01:53I could be more productive with this thing. That's what they're, it's a computer, they're

2:01:57selling it as a computer that you could do work with. The good news is so far from the reviews

2:02:03and what people have assessed with it, they spend most of their time talking about other stuff.

2:02:09And just in passing, they're like, "Oh yeah, I read a ton of stuff on it."

2:02:14Well, if you've used HMDs at all, or used headsets at all, you realize how

2:02:20crap that experience normally is. It is normally not something you talk about with a normal headset

2:02:27because it is impossible to do. Anybody that says, "Oh, I work in it and all these early adopters,

2:02:33I know them, I talk with them, they're lovely people." I've had just as much experience with

2:02:39headsets as anybody. And I can tell you that it's not good. You cannot read well on these headsets.

2:02:45You can read painfully. You can teach yourself to adopt your views to much larger text sizes

2:02:52and very specific views that allow you to do something in the work vein, but they're not

2:02:58pleasant. The Meta3 is excellent in the games context. And in the casual viewing, it's cool,

2:03:06it's fun, it's affordable, it's clever enough, and it's got enough developer support. My kid plays

2:03:14Roblox on it. They play a couple of the great VR games that are just really well done in it, like

2:03:20Cosmo Nius High, Vacation Simulator, both built by the same developer. But there's some good things

2:03:24on there. Very clear use cases for a sub $500 device. You cannot read books on it. You cannot

2:03:33read a spreadsheet on it. It's terrible. And anybody that tells you that you can is just

2:03:38talking out their butt. They're lying to you. It's not good. And it's painful even to do.

2:03:43So the fact that I think most of the reviewers just mentioned in passing, "Oh, I read a bunch

2:03:47of websites. Oh, I looked at this thing and that thing," and then go on to talk about other things,

2:03:51that's a win because it means all that stuff is just no problem. Like it's not even, "Oh,

2:03:57I spent a lot of time reading and here's what I thought." It's like, "No, it was good to read.

2:04:01Okay, now let's talk about these other things." That in my mind is a win from the reviews,

2:04:05from Apple's perspective, in that people have accepted that the baseline of like you can browse,

2:04:11you can read a bunch of text, you could do all that stuff like you would on a normal computer,

2:04:15they passed that bar. Now, of course, becomes the journey towards making it a true productivity

2:04:21machine, but the base coding of stuff that has to be there on day one, it seems most of the

2:04:27reviewer consensus is that those things are there. Yeah. I think that one of the reasons that the

2:04:32Quest 3, which I bought recently and I've played with and I kind of need to go back to now because

2:04:38I've spent the last six days in this and I'm probably going to think, "Oh, man, this is trash,"

2:04:42when I was semi-impressed by it as of a couple of weeks ago. But I think that the reason it's

2:04:48primarily a game-playing thing for most people, it seems to me like, you know, and I told a couple

2:04:53of friends I had it and it seems like people I know who have it use it for playing games,

2:04:57but games you can get away with a lower resolution because there's motion and that's the motion

2:05:03that keeps you from kind of noticing the lower resolution of the screen. I mean, it sounds,

2:05:10you know, someone who considers himself a writer's privilege to say, you know,

2:05:16"Reading is a very good stress test," but it is, you know. And, you know, I was laughing when you

2:05:22were talking about, "Oh, well, you can read on it, you know, but do you want to?" And it always makes

2:05:26me laugh thinking of John Siracusa's story from decades ago when he worked at like an e-book

2:05:31publisher for the Palm Pilot and that he used to read books on a Palm Pilot like 160 by 160

2:05:38monochrome display. You know. I unfortunately did as well. I read it. We are in the same,

2:05:46we have the same proportions. Reading an entire book on that Palm Pilot screen would be both a

2:05:53stress test of your eyes and your patience and also, quite frankly, a stress test of like the

2:05:58button, the physical button you're using to page. Like how many times you have to click that button

2:06:04to go through a book, let alone books, plural. I always think, at least our Ikea in Philadelphia

2:06:11used to have a robotic butt and they'd, you know, the, what was it? I even know the name,

2:06:17because I actually used to own one, the Po-ang, sort of the poor man's Herman Miller chair. And

2:06:23they had a robotic butt that would just stand up and sit down on the chair over and over again,

2:06:28behind glass. Yeah. And the robot had a little led counter that told you that it was like 106,721,

2:06:376,722 times that this robot had stood up and sat down on this chair. That's what I imagined the

2:06:44button on those Palm Pilots you guys used to read books. So yeah, you can read on anything.

2:06:50Really. I was one of the weirdos that had the fold out keyboard and the little stand and I would type

2:06:54on it, like take notes. Oh yeah. I used to have that keyboard. Yeah. If I was in high school and

2:06:59I had an Apple watch I'd read, I, and I could get away if I was allowed to have my watch and not my

2:07:03phone, I would, I'd read books on my watch. I mean, my eyes were a lot better back then.

2:07:09Yeah. That's also true. Right. These were lower resolution, but our eyes were higher resolution.

2:07:14Right. And then I wonder why my eyes aren't so good anymore.

2:07:19Wait a minute. I think we're just realizing. No, it is. I won a little tidbit. I heard from

2:07:28a little birdie in the last week and it's not anybody. It's somebody who's left Apple in the

2:07:32intervening years, but somebody said that one of the, they, they were privy to the original plans

2:07:38for this in 2018 and it sort of kicked off. And I think that was the year Rockwell was on the first

2:07:45time he was on my live show after WWDC and AR kit was new and they started laying the groundwork

2:07:52for the developer stuff. But that when this project kicked off, they sort of put together

2:07:57these specs and they were like in 2018, they were like dream specs. Well, this would be impossible,

2:08:03but I think this is the minimum of what we need. And he said, it really is. It's a testimony to,

2:08:08this is what my, this little birdie told me that it's a testimony to how well run and maybe how

2:08:16much good luck this project had over the years, that what they're actually shipping two days from

2:08:22now or three days from now is remarkably close to what they specked out as a fantasy device in 2018,

2:08:30in terms of, especially in terms of display technology. Like they needed all these things

2:08:36that they couldn't possibly build at the time and they thought, well, let's shoot for the,

2:08:40but that's how you make an amazing product is you have to start where it's impossible and then

2:08:46build to it. What else? I guess that's about it. I mean, the only other thing I can say, and I hope

2:08:53my review, like I said, I broke it into the segments so that I could complain about the

2:09:01current hardware. Too heavy, too big. And the eye tracking is not quite precise enough. It's sort of

2:09:11like a lot of targets, especially like browsing the web, like I said, using youtube.com in

2:09:18particular is hard because there's too many little things in underneath the video player that are too

2:09:23close to each other. And the eye tracking is good, but it's like the equivalent of trying to use an

2:09:32iPhone with your thumb instead of a finger, right? It's like, you know, it's maybe not as precise

2:09:39because it's your thumb and it's a fatter target. And just like how the iPhone had that famous

2:09:4744 point sweet spot for the size of a touchable element that, you know, which is much, much bigger

2:09:55than when you're using a mouse pointer, how small targets can be because the precision of a mouse

2:10:01pointer is so high. The eye tracking is a little more like touch than it, or in fact, I'd say it's

2:10:07a lot more like touch than it is a mouse pointer. But with touch, it's like you intuitively

2:10:15understood from the first iPhone through today that your fingertip is in reality, a big fat

2:10:2444 point circle. And so you, even today with as many advances as the iPhone has made in 17 years,

2:10:31you still kind of need the same physical size for touch targets on a phone because your fingers,

2:10:38our fingers haven't evolved. Right. Right. It evolved to be through the styli yet.

2:10:43Right. Whereas even six days into using vision OS, I want the eye tracking to be even,

2:10:50even more precise because my eye tracking is as accurate as my mouse pointing. It is pixel

2:10:59perfect, right? I can look at a really tiny button on screen and I know that that's the button I mean,

2:11:05and I want it to activate. And so the little things that go wrong is as I get more accustomed

2:11:11to vision OS, I want to go through everything faster. And so it's like, I'm in Safari and I'll

2:11:16hit the button to show all my tabs and I want to activate a tab. But if I'm looking too close to

2:11:22the upper left corner, it closes the tab and then it's gone and there's no undo and it's shit.

2:11:27So it's literally the worst tab I could close just closed because it was the one I wanted to activate.

2:11:34Right. And it's not because the eye tracking is inaccurate. It's just not quite accurate

2:11:40enough. And where I really hit those mistakes like that is when I'm feeling so comfortable,

2:11:46I'm in the flow. Right. And it's, yeah. And I see that tab whipping from thing to thing. Yeah.

2:11:50I'm like, ah, there's the tab that I could see from the thumbnail. That's the one I want. And I

2:11:54disappeared. And I'm like, oh, I even saw the X light up right before it disappeared.

2:11:59Like son of a bitch. Yeah. Just missed it. Missed it by that much.

2:12:06So there's so much room to improve as future generations go on. But I hope I was fair at

2:12:12sort of balancing the shit that's amazing and the yeah, this thing's got to be a lot lighter.

2:12:19Yeah. Yeah. You got to go into these things making the fairs assessment you can because

2:12:26progress is not aided by coddling. Right. It in this nobody understood this more than

2:12:34than the man himself. Right. And Steve and that era of Apple was certainly not about coddling.

2:12:41And I don't think it should be now. So you don't have to go, oh yeah, yeah, it's heavy,

2:12:44but like it enables all these great things. No, look, it's, it's heavy. Weight is not subjective.

2:12:49I mean, it is. It's subjective for everyone. Right. Everything is subjective, but weight is

2:12:53weight. And the lighter something is, the less you pay attention to it as a physical object,

2:13:00the more you could pay attention to the virtual interface. And that's the whole point of it. Right.

2:13:04And it's the same reason that like iPhone size is still such a hot topic because it's like,

2:13:08if you have to stretch to reach a button, is it really the ideal size for a phone?

2:13:13And I think those questions will always be bantered back and forth and people will want this or want

2:13:18that. But I don't think anybody's ever going to tell you that they want a heavier headset. No,

2:13:24like I wish this thing was heavier. So I think it's fair and should be called out because like

2:13:28those things are, even though they may be insurmountable at the moment, cause they're like,

2:13:32Hey, we fit the most technology we could possibly fit into this thing. I don't think that that's

2:13:37something that you can argue anybody, whatever you don't want not to be lighter inside or outside

2:13:43Apple. Right. Progress happens and it'll happen year after year steadily, but it's like just

2:13:48going through serendipity wise, having celebrated this max 40th anniversary, just the week prior.

2:13:55And I like when I was doing the upgrade podcast with a panel of people celebrating it and we had

2:14:01to pick like our favorite Mac of all time or, and stuff like that. And looking at some of the

2:14:07old power books and it's like, Oh, and somebody would post in the group, you know, here's this

2:14:12power Mac G3 from 1998 or something like that. And it's like, Oh, that can't be right. It wasn't

2:14:181.7 inches thick. What? And it's Oh no. Yeah, I guess they were 1.7 inches thick back then and

2:14:25seven pounds. It was like, and I remember when they came out, we were like, look at how small

2:14:30and thin the power books have gotten and they were six pounds. We'll get there eventually. And

2:14:36it, I don't know. I I'm excited overall by I'll just leave it at that. I am terribly excited about

2:14:42the future of this whole endeavor. I mean, I really do. I really do think they're onto

2:14:47something with the basic interaction model. Hello there. Talk show listeners at your pal,

2:14:56John here. Just wanted to let you know that our good friend Murphy, as in Murphy's law,

2:15:02got us pretty good on this one. Something happened to Matthew's microphone towards the end of the

2:15:08show and he needed to finish recording the rest of the show using his AirPods as his microphone,

2:15:15which as you might guess, you're going to notice audio quality wise as the show completes.

2:15:22We're sorry about that. We don't really know what happened, but it is what it is. And just figured

2:15:27I'd break into the show here with a special bulletin just to let you know. So you're not

2:15:31surprised. Thanks for listening. The talk show, the only podcast that blows somebody's microphone

2:15:39battery. That's the advertising right there. I'm sorry. It's charging, but it looks like they gave

2:15:44up the ghost on actually transmitting. So I'll finish off with my last AirPods gasp. Sorry.

2:15:50Anyhow, what were we saying? You were, you were talking about the future. Yeah. Yeah. I was saying

2:15:56I'm anxious to get my hands on it as well. I'm not in the first. French. I waited actually a

2:16:01couple of days to order mine, so I'm not, I'm not getting my for a couple of weeks, but I I'm

2:16:05excited to do some work in it to mess around in there. And I'm frankly excited for all the hacks

2:16:12and things that will come along that people will mess with it. I think this is one of those things

2:16:16where Apple will want to move at a certain speed so that they are cautious and that they roll things

2:16:22out with care. And a lot of other people who have a lot of experience with head mounted displays and

2:16:28with virtual environments already are going to want to play in this new playground and move a lot

2:16:32faster than Apple. And so I'm anxious to see what a lot of people bring to the table, not just the

2:16:38official third-party developer ecosystem, but also people just hacking on crazy projects and sending

2:16:43me test flights and playing around. I want to mess with all that stuff. I'm really excited to see what

2:16:48people come up with. Well, Matthew, thank you for joining me now before we go, instead of telling

2:16:53people to go read your stuff at TechCrunch or wherever the hell it is used to work, you've got

2:16:58it. You've got a new website, which I love. Oh, thanks. And I'm so mad that you're publishing so

2:17:06regularly because I've had so much work to do over the last week. I'm like, stop, slow down. What do

2:17:13you do? You didn't write this much when you were running an entire website. Yeah. It turns out that

2:17:20managing 60 people takes time. What is your new website? It's called the Obsessor. Theobsessor.com

2:17:27is the address. Feel free to go. It is free to sign up and there's plenty to read for free. I

2:17:32do have a paid newsletter as well. They do want to make it sustainable long-term. I want to invest

2:17:36some money into some special projects, video. I just put up a video for subscribers this past

2:17:42weekend with one of my favorite family recipes and just a little bit of a video essay about it.

2:17:47I want to do stuff like that. It covers all of the things that I love, cameras, watches,

2:17:55beverages, and food, and fine craft items. Just things that are worth obsessing over. That's it.

2:18:02I think there's a lot of things that just didn't fit into the bucket of, hey, I run a TechCrunch,

2:18:08so I really should pay attention to X, Y, or Z things. But now I get to really go nerdy on

2:18:12Imagineering topics and different things like that that I care about. That's awesome. It's fun. It's

2:18:17fun building something from scratch and enjoying that. Mostly it's a nights and weekends endeavor,

2:18:22which is great because it gives me a little bit of relaxation time to fool out because I have a

2:18:27day job. But it's great. I find it relaxing. I'm lucky. Should we talk about the day job?

2:18:31Yeah, yeah, sure. I joined a startup called TipTop. The premise is pretty simple. It's

2:18:37anybody knows me or has followed my online presence at all. They'll know I'm a sneaker head.

2:18:43I like to collect clothing and shoes and all that stuff. Part of which I write about, obviously. But

2:18:48I have bought and sold a lot, like a lot of sneakers, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

2:18:53of pairs on essentially every marketplace out there. And of course, given that I'm an

2:18:59Apple device addict, I've bought and sold a ton of electronics online.

2:19:06Somebody sent me a prototype of this app. It was a beta. I thought, "Oh, this is interesting. I

2:19:11see what they're doing here." It basically enables you to instantly sell your devices

2:19:16with just one or two taps without all the rigmarole of listing it on eBay or meeting

2:19:23up at a parking lot with a Facebook marketplace hooligan who's going to take your device and run

2:19:28and all that stuff. And the job is just to make it as simple as possible. I talked with the founder,

2:19:34Bastian Niemann. He formerly founded Dospeaks. This is his new baby who wants to do this thing

2:19:41and create a new way of selling and buying. I really thought it was cool. So I said, "Hey,

2:19:47I think I like this. Let's talk." We talked, we vibed, and now we're building it. It's so

2:19:53fun to build. I spent a lot of years covering building from the other side. It's been really

2:19:59enjoyable getting on a team of 10 people that are just all aligned and just hammering things out.

2:20:05And things don't work until they do. And then they do, and you see some traction. It's just

2:20:10very exciting. I'm having fun. It sounds like it. It sounds like something that you would have told

2:20:15me while we were driving to an Apple event, that you had a dream that you went to work at a startup.

2:20:24It's ridiculously aligned. It's wild. It really is. It could not be more Matthew Pansarino.

2:20:30Yeah, I was very fortunate. Look, it's good people. I like Bassey a lot. I like the people

2:20:37that I work with a lot. But more importantly, I believe in the mission. I have seen firsthand

2:20:43how ridiculous it is, how the taxes and fees and selling issues basically make it so that you just

2:20:51say, eh, I don't think I want to, I don't want to bother. Right. Or, or you're stuck going,

2:20:57I really need this cash. Like these days people get laid off. They were seeing so much of it

2:21:03happen. They have devices laying around. They're like, I really wish this was cash tomorrow so

2:21:07that I could pay bills or whatever. And like that kind of thing is, has been pretty impossible to do

2:21:12because it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of logistics and hard work behind the scenes to make

2:21:17it seamless for the user. And so we're not anywhere near where we want to be, but I think we're on the

2:21:23way and I'm excited. It's been fun. Yeah. I know I don't sell sneakers, but my son's into the,

2:21:29into that whole world. And I know, I know how competitive that whole market can be.

2:21:37Yeah. It is. Yeah. Between bots shopping and all of that stuff, it gets crazy. And then the selling

2:21:44side of it too. Like you grow out of certain things. Like you've got an old iPad and it's

2:21:48been sitting in a drawer or you grow out of a pair of sneakers or you grow out of something that you,

2:21:53that you were using and don't use so much anymore. And I think it's, I don't want to get too heady,

2:21:58but there really is the, the thing that really attracted me to this is that there's,

2:22:02there's the changing relationship people have with the things that they own.

2:22:06Young people are owning less and renting more. And as far as homes go, we all know there's a ton of

2:22:13socioeconomic things that go along with that. It's not completely by choice, but it is part of their,

2:22:18of the mentality that's changing because you and I are probably the last generation that is going to

2:22:25hoard a bunch of stuff that is going to keep stuff around forever. I got looking at the slow, you can

2:22:29listeners can't tell, but I've got like stuff. I've got collections of stuff in my house. And,

2:22:34and my, my parents, I mean, I dread going through all the stuff that they have collected.

2:22:40And I think that people are being more comfortable with letting things come in and out of their life.

2:22:47And there really isn't enough mechanics that enable that to allow them to go, look,

2:22:52I purchased this, or I brought this into my life. I had it for a period of time. I enjoyed it,

2:22:58but now I'd like it to move on. And there's just not enough liquidity or, or impermeability to that

2:23:04ownership process. Yeah. It's just a different world today than, than when I grew up.

2:23:10And learn my order, learn my hoarding ways. I know. I know. Yeah. All right, Matthew,

2:23:18I will talk to you soon. Thank you. Appreciate it.