00:00:00 ◼ ► What do you think? It's like talking to a bug. I think that's what Ben said. I did the same thing
00:00:06 ◼ ► for dithering when we recorded last night. So I don't record video for this show, so nobody knows
00:00:13 ◼ ► exactly what's going on here, but for the recording in this web-based app I use StreamYard, there's a
00:00:19 ◼ ► video and I can see Matthew and Matthew can see me and I'm... Well I could see, I could see someone.
00:00:26 ◼ ► I can see someone. Yeah. Now do you have, you don't because it doesn't know that I'm there
00:00:34 ◼ ► so it doesn't have the eyes on, right? It doesn't have eyesight. No, exactly. And Ben was thrown off by that too.
00:00:41 ◼ ► And it reminded me last night while I was like halfway through, well I wasn't halfway through
00:00:49 ◼ ► done writing, but I was halfway through whatever my process is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Halfway through a
00:00:56 ◼ ► thinking about it. But it did serve to remind me that part of the, I would just say problem with
00:01:04 ◼ ► eyesight is that you on the inside have no idea when it's on, what it's on. You don't know what
00:01:12 ◼ ► people on the outside are seeing. And that's, it's just a really weird thing that you don't know what
00:01:21 ◼ ► other people see on your face. I don't know that there's any experience in the world quite like it.
00:01:27 ◼ ► Well I mean maybe having some food in your teeth, right? Yeah, yeah. Like you had no idea that
00:01:32 ◼ ► something was stuck in your teeth and somebody's, "Hey you gotta think," you're like, "Oh my god, I had no idea."
00:01:36 ◼ ► All right, hold on a second here. I'm gonna take my headphones off first and then then the Vision Pro.
00:01:41 ◼ ► Hold on. Okay. It's like Clark Kent taking off his glasses. My headphones even fit better now.
00:02:07 ◼ ► for me, but my first question for you is, do you have FOMO? Yeah, of course, of course. How could you not?
00:02:15 ◼ ► I mean, you know, it's sort of I knew that this is the deal. I went into it with eyes open, but when
00:02:20 ◼ ► the time comes, it's always, you know, it's always kind of a bummer. I mean, I definitely think I would
00:02:25 ◼ ► have had less FOMO. And we'll see come September, but like if this is a new iPhone, some great upgrades,
00:02:31 ◼ ► whatever, to an iPhone, that's an existing category that I've covered a lot and thought about a lot.
00:02:37 ◼ ► But as a new category device, it would have been nice to kind of, because I've been following,
00:02:42 ◼ ► as you have, following this kind of journey of Apple's trembling towards spatial computing for
00:02:48 ◼ ► six, seven, eight years. And so it would have been nice to kind of like get into the first
00:02:53 ◼ ► review cadre and have a chance to check it out. But at the same time, I actually got a good night's
00:02:57 ◼ ► sleep last night, John. And I woke up and I had some coffee and I got, I was just, I read some
00:03:02 ◼ ► reviews. It was actually, I was like, is this, is this how it feels? This is awesome. It's relaxing.
00:03:10 ◼ ► I got about four hours of sleep. Yeah, I know that feel. I mean, it's always worse for me too,
00:03:19 ◼ ► right? Because the West Coast time zone is the, it's the worst. Right. Right. How did you use to
00:03:24 ◼ ► manage that with the TechCrunch CMS? Would you cue it up and set it for the embargo time or would you
00:03:33 ◼ ► not trust the CMS's, hey, don't publish this till this, to the time and wait until two minutes before
00:03:40 ◼ ► the embargo and then get it all queued up and hit what, which way would you do that? A variety of
00:03:45 ◼ ► ways over the years, but I don't think I ever really felt completely happy or trusting of
00:03:51 ◼ ► WordPress's scheduling. WordPress scheduling is notoriously flaky. And so most of the time it was
00:03:58 ◼ ► a manual press of the button. Sometimes me sometimes up at 3 a.m. just pressing the button.
00:04:03 ◼ ► And then I would literally just crank, go through all of the post review post published things.
00:04:08 ◼ ► People have questions. I'm like, oh, let me add that. I'll add a bit about that. Right. And kind
00:04:13 ◼ ► of update the article or just handling Q and A and all of that stuff. And then I would just crash,
00:04:24 ◼ ► Right now when I'm recording this podcast. Yeah, exactly right now. But a lot of times,
00:04:35 ◼ ► Henry Picklebet, who would be a champion and be like, hey, Henry, I've just turned in my last
00:04:40 ◼ ► words of this. Could you please get this in ship shape? And he would handle getting all of that
00:04:45 ◼ ► done and orderly and then published on time so that I could crash and then wake up and do the
00:04:49 ◼ ► whole thing. So it was nice not to be a one man show in those moments. Well, my advantage is,
00:04:55 ◼ ► of course, that I never quite make the embargo deadline. So I don't have to worry about trusting
00:05:01 ◼ ► any kind of thing, but I would never trust it. I don't even think the way I don't even think I can
00:05:06 ◼ ► forward publish things automatically the way I have movable type set up. It's so it just it just
00:05:12 ◼ ► doesn't it just never even occurs to me. Right. And it's such a modern tool. Well, I'm sure they
00:05:21 ◼ ► have it. I'm sure there's a way to do it. And I'm yeah. And I'm I'm sure I guarantee there's a way
00:05:27 ◼ ► that I could jury rig it, which might be what I would do anyway. But I don't have to worry because
00:05:32 ◼ ► I'm not sure I'm ever going to hit one of these deadlines. I did read I have not read others
00:05:37 ◼ ► reviews extensively. I skim Joanna's and watched and saw that she actually wore it skiing. God
00:05:45 ◼ ► bless Joanna Stern. Yes, I am so glad she didn't Sonny Bono herself. Yeah, no, she did great. And
00:05:52 ◼ ► in some ways I'm glad I didn't do a review because I guarantee you I would have put cooking in my
00:05:57 ◼ ► video. So I'm glad she did it. It's it's well executed. She did a wonderful job. And I was
00:06:02 ◼ ► like, this is great because it was a really great example of how to use it. Yes. So yesterday I did
00:06:07 ◼ ► something like and you know, little details that you know, it there's so much even when you when
00:06:12 ◼ ► I write, I think I get wound up at like 7000 words and I left lots out. You just have to try things
00:06:21 ◼ ► and then you sort of circle back to what do you think the main here's this big soup of all these
00:06:27 ◼ ► experiences I had over the last week. What are the ones that actually make a story? What are the ones
00:06:32 ◼ ► that are important? But Apple showed that right right at the key at the WWDC keynote when they
00:06:37 ◼ ► announced this product, they showed a woman packing a suitcase for a trip while she's wearing it. And
00:06:42 ◼ ► then she got like a FaceTime call while she's packing and answers it and is like, Oh, hello,
00:06:47 ◼ ► you know, I'm packing for the trip or whatever. And I remember I think we were sitting next to
00:06:52 ◼ ► each other. And I remember thinking, that seems like an odd context to wear this product. So
00:06:59 ◼ ► yesterday, the dishwasher needed to be emptied. We had a bunch of dishes from the night before
00:07:03 ◼ ► that needed to be put in. So I just did a whole bunch of that type of thing, emptied the dishwasher
00:07:10 ◼ ► put them away, got a bunch of dirty dishes, loaded them in the dishwasher, hand washed a bunch of
00:07:16 ◼ ► pots and pans that kind of don't go in the dishwasher. It was okay. And stuff like reaching
00:07:24 ◼ ► out and grabbing a glass, you know, something where if you were a fraction of an inch off or
00:07:28 ◼ ► something where you might knock it over that none of that stuff is a problem. Like, yeah, okay. The
00:07:34 ◼ ► latency is not perfect. And you really notice it like you notice it. I wrote my review, even just
00:07:41 ◼ ► walking at walking pace, it's enough motion to blur the image a little bit where it's not bad.
00:07:49 ◼ ► And it's not for me at all nausea inducing, but it no longer looks like pass through vision.
00:07:55 ◼ ► Whereas when you're you and you remember this from your times demoing it when you're just
00:08:00 ◼ ► sitting down and looking ahead. The pass through is uncanny, right? But I'm not quite sure what the
00:08:07 ◼ ► point is though of doing it for household chores right now. Cooking is different, right? Because
00:08:12 ◼ ► cooking you can imagine, anybody can imagine somebody who doesn't cook much can imagine that
00:08:27 ◼ ► Chris Bounds Yeah. I mean, I think that sort of reference, right, I think is the most common way
00:08:36 ◼ ► or common way to phrase it like an umbrella phrasing is if you have to reference something
00:08:43 ◼ ► live, whether it's instructions or a tutorial video, as an example, like I could see it like,
00:08:48 ◼ ► oh, you got to repair your iPhone. Just a close to home example. If you want to change the screen out
00:08:54 ◼ ► on your iPhone, like having that hovering there while you have your hands on the device,
00:09:00 ◼ ► both hands on the device, you're not playing and pausing. And you're not trying to say, wait, wait,
00:09:04 ◼ ► what was that? You could just pinch your fingers to pause and then go right back to fiddling.
00:09:08 ◼ ► There's some cases where I could see that that would happen. But yeah, the case where I was like,
00:09:13 ◼ ► hold on, let me take a video call while I keep packing. That seemed like a little bit of a
00:09:17 ◼ ► stretch. I don't know if that's the way I would go about that. Because I just don't see why I would
00:09:23 ◼ ► ever have it on while I'm packing. Right. I might be listening to a podcast while I'm packing,
00:09:27 ◼ ► but I would just put AirPods in and play it from my phone. And in some ways, while I was doing
00:09:40 ◼ ► which is not a native vision app. It's, you know, it runs in what they call compatibility mode,
00:09:46 ◼ ► which is the iPad app in some way. And Overcast works fine like that. In general, iPad apps,
00:09:53 ◼ ► unchanged work really well. I mean, this was my impression from demos with Apple. It's what I've
00:10:00 ◼ ► heard through the grapevine. And in the last week, it's been my experience of all the ways
00:10:05 ◼ ► that Apple has enabled in recent years. Oh, you can run apps for this old platform on this new
00:10:13 ◼ ► platform without changing it like iPhone apps on the iPad that are unadjusted. And sure, it looks,
00:10:19 ◼ ► you know, it looks stupid because they're a little iPhone sized window on a big iPad screen, or you
00:10:24 ◼ ► can run them in 2x mode where everything is way too big. And then the whole run iPad apps on Mac
00:10:32 ◼ ► through catalyst without doing any kind of Mac-ification just sort of hit recompile and
00:10:39 ◼ ► Xcode. This is the best of any of those. And if these were the only apps available, it would be
00:10:46 ◼ ► a little surprising for Apple, but it would be credible. And in fact, a lot of the system apps
00:10:51 ◼ ► from Apple are like that right now. Maps, books. I forget which other apps, maps and books,
00:10:58 ◼ ► calendar, which seems like that's a surprising one to me, given that there's sort of a work
00:11:04 ◼ ► productivity focus on like they have a native keynote app, but no native numbers or pages.
00:11:13 ◼ ► They're very credible. They don't even even the way that iPad apps are kind of clearly iPad apps
00:11:19 ◼ ► on Mac. These apps kind of look like they could be native if you didn't know how much cooler native
00:11:26 ◼ ► apps look right. The look and feel of the of the truly native apps is the biggest tell. But here's
00:11:33 ◼ ► where listening to podcasts with it, actually, it was almost too fancy because there's a spatiality
00:12:02 ◼ ► which is where I had it, then while I'm in the kitchen emptying the dishwasher and whatever,
00:12:11 ◼ ► Right. Whereas normally you would expect it to come in both ears wherever the window was.
00:12:15 ◼ ► Yeah. Right. And I've listened to so many, I was going to say hundreds, but I don't know,
00:12:21 ◼ ► maybe thousands of hours, I guess, thousands of hours of podcasts at this point in the aggregate.
00:12:27 ◼ ► And I'm just like a thousand hours of podcasts listening, whereas I twist and turn my body,
00:12:34 ◼ ► the audio doesn't have any spatial aspect to it. And so it just, I was just like, what is this?
00:12:57 ◼ ► their philosophy, right. Of the overall spatial computing philosophy. It's like over adherence to
00:13:03 ◼ ► it. I think that will be the norm for a while, right? Because they sort of have to establish
00:13:07 ◼ ► the rules and then pull back the rules. Like this is iOS seven all over again. It's like,
00:13:19 ◼ ► Yeah. Conversely, I guess I'm skipping all over the place, but I, I had a three-way FaceTime call
00:13:26 ◼ ► with two reps from Apple, somebody from Apple PR and someone from product marketing for vision.
00:13:32 ◼ ► And this was a scheduled, but it was optional. You know how this is listeners don't, but they'll offer
00:13:37 ◼ ► reviewers, something like that. And it's sort of, you also know this part it's like by the letter
00:13:44 ◼ ► of the NDA I signed, I wasn't supposed to do a FaceTime call with the persona with anybody.
00:13:54 ◼ ► I think, I think that was on the list of the NDA that I didn't really ignore, but like technically
00:13:58 ◼ ► it would have been an NDA violation for me and Joanna and Neelay to FaceTime each other. But of
00:14:04 ◼ ► course, of course we FaceTimed each other. And I think Neelay said that they all put them in their
00:14:10 ◼ ► videos too. They were just like, come on, this is a joke. But as a courtesy, if you want to pretend
00:14:15 ◼ ► and, and they don't assume that any of us reviewers are friends with each other, even though they know
00:14:20 ◼ ► a bunch of us are friends with each other, but I guess they kind of have to offer it. So they,
00:14:24 ◼ ► you know, offered a call and I took it, you know, I was like, I'll see what this is like.
00:14:28 ◼ ► And so with three people in the call, the spatial aspect and everybody wearing Vision Pro,
00:14:41 ◼ ► like the persona part we could, we could just go right into right now is really uncanny and kind
00:14:47 ◼ ► of weird. But in a half hour call, five, six minutes in, you just get over the weirdness,
00:14:56 ◼ ► I mean, it just looks like one of those things that just is gonna get better, right? Over time,
00:15:02 ◼ ► they'll get better at it. They'll render these things better and better until the point where
00:15:14 ◼ ► Yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, it, and in fact, if you even look, and maybe I'm reading a little
00:15:19 ◼ ► too much into it, but I almost feel like they've done the Apple equivalent of underlining,
00:15:25 ◼ ► bolding, and italicizing the word beta. They drew a circular pill around it and knock out
00:15:37 ◼ ► Right. I almost feel like they wish, you know, like back in the day, I don't think developers
00:15:44 ◼ ► really talk like this anymore. But like when I first started getting into app development,
00:16:08 ◼ ► Right. Alpha is like when you're building a house or an extension to the house and you just see the
00:16:13 ◼ ► studs and the woodwork, right? And you can, and you just have to pretend there's a wall here,
00:16:18 ◼ ► you know? Yeah. You do your walkthrough and you're like, "And we're going to put the vanity over here."
00:16:24 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. And you see like empty coffee cups and cigarette butts from the workers in between.
00:16:44 ◼ ► the software to support a feature of hardware has lagged behind. And I would say a canonical example,
00:17:19 ◼ ► And then you got exclusive pre-release OS update or something and got to shoot with it.
00:17:43 ◼ ► And the 8 Plus. But yeah, it was. It was a few weeks after. And they put a special version on my
00:17:49 ◼ ► review device of the OS, sent me a link and put a special version of it on. And then the software
00:17:56 ◼ ► didn't ship even then for a couple of weeks after that. So I was seeing, I think, what they shipped
00:18:02 ◼ ► or essentially what they shipped. But it was before they shipped it to the public and well
00:18:11 ◼ ► Right. And so clearly they had hoped to have it ready to ship on day one of customer delivery.
00:18:18 ◼ ► It was a couple of months behind. And it's such a not big deal in hindsight that even you and I are
00:18:25 ◼ ► struggling to remember exactly when it was. Right? In the moment, these things always seem shocking.
00:18:33 ◼ ► Here's this flagship camera feature of this brand new flagship, most expensive iPhone ever made. And
00:18:48 ◼ ► that those things don't even seem to make a deal anymore. But yeah, yeah, true. And they could have
00:18:52 ◼ ► done that here. Right. They could have said coming soon and just kept iterating. But I honestly think
00:18:58 ◼ ► like, I think you mentioned in your review, which I read just before this as, as homework,
00:19:03 ◼ ► but in your review, which is excellent, by the way, I think it's, it was really well done.
00:19:08 ◼ ► You mentioned that they didn't, you feel that they didn't do the Memoji option, which would be just
00:19:15 ◼ ► to put people's custom crafted, the Memoji that you create on your phone as the overlay, which
00:19:21 ◼ ► they do already. You could do that. You send a message to somebody they've got enough tracking
00:19:26 ◼ ► in there to give you a rough, like Muppet style conversation with a Memoji back and forth over
00:19:31 ◼ ► iMessage or things like that. But they chose not to do that here. And your take is they didn't do
00:19:37 ◼ ► that because in business contexts, it would be like, you'd be having some serious discussion
00:19:43 ◼ ► about like the company's going under or we're laying you off or whatever. And you've got to
00:19:48 ◼ ► be emoji flapping at you instead of like a person's face. Right. Right. Or I don't have a job
00:19:55 ◼ ► job like that anymore, but I can imagine working in a certain, certainly just very large corporations
00:20:03 ◼ ► where you often have meetings with people who are not, you would consider friends, right?
00:20:07 ◼ ► Maybe you regularly have meetings with colleagues or managers who don't even know you until this
00:20:14 ◼ ► meeting. Or external calls, right? Not even at the company, it's a sales call or a business call
00:20:18 ◼ ► or whatever. Right. And I even use the word client, right? You've got a client call. Well,
00:20:23 ◼ ► then you may not want to show up as a cartoon. I mean, in my world, I can't imagine a scenario
00:20:30 ◼ ► where I couldn't just be a emoji, but I can certainly imagine and remember when I did have
00:20:34 ◼ ► a job job that that time for me was before video conferencing was a thing, but I can imagine it
00:20:42 ◼ ► now. And it would be like showing up to a real life meeting where everybody is wearing dress
00:21:03 ◼ ► Yeah, that's true. Yeah. The context is, it's a context mismatch. Right? But you could imagine,
00:21:15 ◼ ► if you're talking with your friends or FaceTiming with your friends, it seems like it would be fun
00:21:20 ◼ ► to do that. And I would estimate that the beta is all about, "Hey, we're going to make these
00:21:24 ◼ ► faces better. We're going to add more features long term." But yeah, honestly, the reviews that
00:21:32 ◼ ► I read so far seem to jibe with what you were saying, though, which is that there tends to be
00:21:38 ◼ ► an immediate sort of, "What is this?" And then it kind of fades out as you talk and the spatial
00:21:43 ◼ ► audio kicks in and you're like, "Oh, that person is over there and this person's over here," etc.
00:21:56 ◼ ► they call them tiles. They're sort of like windows, but I think they call them tiles because they're
00:22:01 ◼ ► not really resizable, like when you're FaceTiming someone and they're just sort of like squares.
00:22:05 ◼ ► And the two of them are perfectly aligned. And there's a spatial element to it that putting
00:22:12 ◼ ► aside the... And I think I used the phrase twice because I felt like it was so apt that it's deep
00:22:20 ◼ ► in the uncanny valley, right? These personas are deep in the uncanny valley. They're very
00:22:26 ◼ ► unsettling. Put aside that uncanny aspect of them. Overall, though, the feature and the spatialness
00:22:34 ◼ ► is better. It's better than what you and I are doing right here in this flat browser window.
00:22:42 ◼ ► And especially with three people, because you get a spatial element to the sound and they can even
00:22:48 ◼ ► see which person you're making eye contact with. I tested them. I was like, "I'm looking at you,
00:22:54 ◼ ► or I'm looking at one of you. Can you guys both tell which one I'm making eye contact with?"
00:22:58 ◼ ► That's cool. That's very clever. I mean, that requires obviously some foolery on Apple's part
00:23:05 ◼ ► to sort of take the position of your eyes and assign it to the appropriate tile and then
00:23:18 ◼ ► I guess you can keep adding people to FaceTime. There must be some number of people you can add.
00:23:25 ◼ ► Yeah, because I remember there was a demo they did at a keynote and it was a lot. They were
00:23:31 ◼ ► Yeah. Well, that's a lot. So, I'm sure with 32 people, you can't make eye contact with people.
00:23:36 ◼ ► Or it doesn't really matter that much, right? Like, it's such a small shift of your eye.
00:23:41 ◼ ► Right. So, putting aside the verisimilitude of the actual animated persona, overall, it's a great
00:23:56 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Put aside the face. The face stuff is good. You can move the tiles
00:24:10 ◼ ► Okay. Yeah. So, file that under, I don't know. Overall, again, I jumped right into this. And
00:24:19 ◼ ► even though I'm always notoriously, I mean, the bastards at 9to5Mac, did you see what they did?
00:24:25 ◼ ► They had a review roundup. And then at the bottom, they said, "We'll keep updating this page with
00:24:30 ◼ ► other reviews as they come in throughout the day, asterisk." And then it said, "John Gruber's review."
00:24:40 ◼ ► I did. It made me laugh. It actually made me laugh. But it also made me a little embarrassed.
00:24:58 ◼ ► these, and if I didn't think each time, "I think I've got a chance to actually make this one,"
00:25:07 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, I've missed them before too. I do think it's good though, that you take the time
00:25:14 ◼ ► you take and then you set yourself in a category where... I used to do this with embargoes,
00:25:20 ◼ ► not on Apple stuff, but way back in the past, I used to kind of mess around with my timings on
00:25:26 ◼ ► that on purpose. Not early, obviously, if I agreed, I agreed. But if I was late to an embargo,
00:25:32 ◼ ► sometimes you give it some air. And then, especially if you had a take where you're like,
00:25:37 ◼ ► "I really don't think anybody's going to take this angle," right? You give it a little air and it
00:25:42 ◼ ► gives yours time to breathe, space to breathe and exist on its own. And I think that people have
00:25:47 ◼ ► come to expect that. So I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think the expectation is kind of
00:25:51 ◼ ► nice to have built into your audience because they're like, "Oh, cool." And then I get like
00:25:59 ◼ ► One of these times though, I'm going to hit the embargo and everybody is going to be surprised.
00:26:08 ◼ ► Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor. It's our good friends. And I have a
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00:28:22 ◼ ► cherry on top with family sharing, which is great, one subscription covers up to six accounts. And
00:28:28 ◼ ► there's even a lifetime payment option if you don't want to pay for a subscription. They get it.
00:28:33 ◼ ► So, just jump to the App Store and search for Adblock Pro and you will find it and transform
00:28:40 ◼ ► your Safari experience today. This was super convenient because I saw that as one of the
00:28:46 ◼ ► sponsors for this episode yesterday when I was like, "Hey, before I go overnight into deep dark
00:28:52 ◼ ► review writing mode, I got to set this up." I pinged you. I set this up. And I didn't have
00:28:58 ◼ ► ad blocking at all in Safari on VisionOS. And I was trying to do some things and it's like,
00:29:04 ◼ ► "Oh, I'm trying to review this product." And Safari is maybe the best app on the whole product. I
00:29:11 ◼ ► didn't even mention that in my review, but it's a really good implementation of a web browser.
00:29:16 ◼ ► But I totally was like, "Oh my God, without any extensions in Safari, the web is unusable."
00:29:33 ◼ ► Yeah, it's unfortunate. I mean, obviously you and I both know that there's a variety of things that
00:29:39 ◼ ► have to do with the business of media that has caused this current issue. But it's interesting
00:29:47 ◼ ► how much we've come to rely on extensibility in Safari over the years and how deep it is in their
00:30:03 ◼ ► I know that a lot of times, and even recently, and maybe at the end of this episode, we'll have time
00:30:09 ◼ ► to touch on all this EU nonsense, which it's crazy how much stuff has gone on in the last week. But
00:30:14 ◼ ► a lot of times when I hear people talk about Safari competitively, it is from sort of the
00:30:24 ◼ ► Nerdist sphere. And it's from the context of web developers who, because they're web developers,
00:30:31 ◼ ► are more into Chrome because Chrome caters more towards leading edge web developer features.
00:30:41 ◼ ► And a lot of web developers think, and perhaps with some justification, that maybe one of Apple's
00:30:56 ◼ ► tilt the scale in favor of native apps for their platforms. But I think there's a lot more to it.
00:31:03 ◼ ► And you and I, you know this, that one of the differences is that the WebKit team has a much
00:31:09 ◼ ► bigger priority on battery life and energy conservation. It's been years. I've been thinking
00:31:26 ◼ ► until the battery dies, then go through the same list of URLs over and over and over again until
00:31:32 ◼ ► the battery dies in Chrome. And it was like, I think it was like 2017 or so when the last time
00:31:38 ◼ ► I did it, which is admittedly six years ago, but it was like a 1.5x factor in difference.
00:31:44 ◼ ► In other words, if all you do is use Safari instead of Chrome, you could save it's 1.5x
00:31:51 ◼ ► longer battery life. Significant, not 5% or 10%, but at least at that point it was 1.5x.
00:31:57 ◼ ► More than that though, it's just having their own native rendering engine has been such a boon
00:32:06 ◼ ► to Apple over the years. I mean, and again, go back to the original iPhone, which launched without
00:32:12 ◼ ► native third-party apps for an entire year because they could say, "Well, just write web apps." And
00:32:17 ◼ ► we've done some things in the original 1.0 version of iPhone Safari to let you sort of make fake
00:32:24 ◼ ► native-looking apps as web apps. And it just, there was so much content for the original iPhone
00:32:34 ◼ ► that went through Safari. I mean, it really was one of the, if not, probably for me, the most
00:32:40 ◼ ► used app in Safari for the whole first year. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And the state of Safari today is
00:32:49 ◼ ► actually really excellent. I mean, I was a Chrome user for many, many, many years, like very rabid
00:32:56 ◼ ► Chrome user because of its good integrations with Google services, obviously. But then also it just,
00:33:02 ◼ ► it felt speedy and it rendered well, and it had all kinds of weird wonky stuff that you
00:33:08 ◼ ► could plug in. Like the extensions universe of Chrome is, it's wild. It's amazing, right? Like,
00:33:14 ◼ ► it's a really great ecosystem of stuff. Everything from checking prices on a cart to a developer tool
00:33:21 ◼ ► to Web3 stuff, whatever. Like you could, you name it, you can find it in the extension store or in
00:33:27 ◼ ► somebody's hacked together on GitHub. And I think that's really fun and cool, but I came to a point
00:33:32 ◼ ► in my life where I realized that A, it was a memory hog, B, it's like eight battery, like crazy,
00:33:39 ◼ ► and then C, like a lot of the really edge case wonky stuff, I only used a handful of days out of
00:33:45 ◼ ► the year. And so if I needed it, Chrome could always be there. I usually install Chrome on my
00:33:51 ◼ ► devices or my computers, but I use Safari because it's faster, it's like slicker, it's smoother,
00:34:15 ◼ ► - Like as a lay person's rule of thumb for why at a nerdy type level, people might prefer
00:34:25 ◼ ► Chrome or Chrome based browsers over Safari, it is because inside as a web app, it enables more
00:34:32 ◼ ► native app type things. So like a service like StreamYard where we've got video streaming and
00:34:44 ◼ ► - Yeah, and the tinkering type stuff that you said, we're in the same way that like when you're at
00:34:49 ◼ ► the command line and you can type defaults right, some obscure command in the Mac OS terminal,
00:35:01 ◼ ► - Yeah, Chrome is like ready for you to turn its guts inside out at the moment's notice, right?
00:35:05 ◼ ► Like you put in the right string in the URL and you're looking into the deep workings of
00:35:14 ◼ ► - Right, that's a more googly approach to the web and Safari is a very, very appley approach
00:35:21 ◼ ► to the web. But overall, wow, what an overlooked, I think people just overlook how good an app Safari
00:35:45 ◼ ► - And now with Vision OS today, one of the, in the last two weeks, one of the big stories was the
00:35:51 ◼ ► fact that two big services not only don't have native Vision OS apps, but don't even allow their
00:35:57 ◼ ► iPad apps to run in Vision OS, are Netflix and YouTube. And so if it weren't for Safari being,
00:36:06 ◼ ► hey, it's at least both of those services are pretty, they're good enough in Safari. I mean,
00:36:11 ◼ ► they're not great, but imagine if you couldn't watch Netflix or YouTube at all, right? I mean.
00:36:17 ◼ ► - Yeah, I wouldn't have put it past them to be honest. I think that, like YouTube especially,
00:36:33 ◼ ► right? Like it's, there's a line that that would cross, right? And that's sort of, I don't know,
00:36:39 ◼ ► I think they would have to resort to old school Bill Gates is in charge of Microsoft trickery
00:36:46 ◼ ► to break it, right? Like they couldn't just put up a thing that says, YouTube.com is not available
00:36:53 ◼ ► on Vision OS. - Polite fictions is the name of the term, right? Polite fictions, where you basically
00:37:00 ◼ ► are able to publicly say, oh, we want to provide the best experience for our users. And so we will
00:37:07 ◼ ► evaluate the platform going forward, blah, blah, blah. What you really mean is we're not going to
00:37:12 ◼ ► build something that makes your thing better, forget you, right? It's like those polite
00:37:16 ◼ ► fictions are able to hide behind. - Right, or introduce a couple of glitches that actually
00:37:20 ◼ ► make it render broken. I mean, that's what Microsoft used to be accused of doing. I mean,
00:37:26 ◼ ► I don't know how much truth there is to it, but the rumor, maybe it's true, maybe it's not,
00:37:29 ◼ ► but the rumor I remember when I was young, really young, was that Microsoft had an internal,
00:37:35 ◼ ► additional, the fact that it's talking about DOS, not Windows, will tell you how old it is,
00:37:40 ◼ ► but that there was an internal slogan at Microsoft, DOS ain't done till Lotus don't run.
00:37:46 ◼ ► And the idea was that like DOS 5.1.3 would go out and however you would get, you couldn't download
00:37:56 ◼ ► patches, then you'd go to like your user group and get a bunch of floppy disks to update. And then
00:38:01 ◼ ► all of a sudden Lotus 1, 2, 3 wouldn't work, right? And then you'd be like, "Ah, but Excel
00:38:08 ◼ ► works fine." I think that that speaks to, again, I'm rhapsodizing about Safari specifically, but
00:38:17 ◼ ► the web overall and what a small miracle it is that we have this universal open computing platform
00:38:25 ◼ ► that we just expect to be everywhere, right? And that didn't have to be that way. I think
00:38:32 ◼ ► I don't know, rolled the dice on a couple of different multiverses forking around the early
00:38:39 ◼ ► nineties. And I think you can very easily get to the year 2000 without the worldwide web.
00:38:55 ◼ ► which were always Mac specific, right? Apple never had any interest in any kind of cross-platform
00:39:00 ◼ ► stuff. However lost Apple was for a long number of years there while Jobs was in exile,
00:39:06 ◼ ► part of Apple was always, "Well, we're only going to build stuff for our platforms," right? So,
00:39:10 ◼ ► Apple wasn't going to build, you know, some hypothetical Apple that tried to make HyperCard
00:39:15 ◼ ► cross-platform maybe could have built it, but companies weren't interested in it. Honestly,
00:39:21 ◼ ► Microsoft and Apple weren't even all that interested in TCP/IP networking. You used to have
00:39:28 ◼ ► to get like a freeware system extension for Mac OS 7.5 to get TCP/IP. Everything was proprietary
00:39:36 ◼ ► networking protocols. It's a small miracle that we have this and that however spiteful or whatever
00:39:43 ◼ ► else, whatever the reasons are that drove Netflix and YouTube to not even allow their iPad apps on
00:39:49 ◼ ► Vision OS, you can use youtube.com and netflix.com. And once you break out the video into a full
00:40:04 ◼ ► which is why I think people with some knowledge of the past, the commentators who have kind of
00:40:20 ◼ ► the day, if you can browse on a device, then that device has some access. It may not be best in
00:40:31 ◼ ► services of the world. Right. And I think that's a, that's an important distinction to make when
00:40:36 ◼ ► you're like, Hey, we're not launching a native app. Okay. But we're not blocking vision pro on,
00:40:42 ◼ ► on the web browser with a user agent of vision pro. So like, I think the polite fictions part
00:40:48 ◼ ► of it is like, Oh, we haven't had the time to build this, or it's just not a priority for us or
00:40:53 ◼ ► whatever. But at the same time, I think that having it on the web is sort of fine with me.
00:40:58 ◼ ► Like they don't have to, right. It's up to Apple to make the thing compelling from an addressable
00:41:06 ◼ ► audience standpoint and an experience standpoint to where Netflix says we have to support this.
00:41:13 ◼ ► We must write our, our users want it. It's a wonderful experience. It drives subscriptions
00:41:20 ◼ ► and or whatever. And of course the whole app store rules and all that stuff comes into play. But
00:41:25 ◼ ► the fact is, is that it's up to Apple to make this thing compelling. I don't think it's on anybody
00:41:31 ◼ ► else to support this thing until Apple gets it to a place where people are like, I got,
00:41:36 ◼ ► where's Netflix. Like we all have vision pros. Where the hell are you Netflix? That kind of thing.
00:41:41 ◼ ► Trenton Larkin Yeah, I totally agree. And I don't think it's a big deal in the long run. And like I
00:41:50 ◼ ► said, both services work okay going through Safari. So it's not the end of the world. But I do think
00:41:56 ◼ ► there's a little bit of a, like all the canaries in the coal mine aren't dead, but there's, hey,
00:42:01 ◼ ► there's two of them. The ones labeled YouTube and Netflix, right. And it's just sort of a,
00:42:07 ◼ ► like a bad, so it makes my spidey sense tingle about Apple's, for lack of a better word, arrogance.
00:42:14 ◼ ► And what I've heard, little birdie wise, is conflicting. Well, one thing is that I know this
00:42:22 ◼ ► for a fact that internal to Apple, until two or three weeks ago, anybody inside Apple had access
00:42:30 ◼ ► to the entire App Store library of iPad apps to install on Vision OS, because there wasn't
00:42:37 ◼ ► any kind of opt out for developers yet, because it hadn't gotten to that point. And it was obviously
00:42:44 ◼ ► only available to Apple employees, right? So they can do all sorts of things with iPad apps that
00:42:50 ◼ ► can't be done outside the company. And that internal to Apple, they just assumed, you know,
00:42:56 ◼ ► they might have been mildly disappointed that Netflix didn't have a native Vision OS app. And
00:43:00 ◼ ► I guess they knew that they wouldn't because they knew that Netflix wasn't coming into the developer
00:43:06 ◼ ► labs with any kind of work. They weren't answering their calls. But there's, there's lots of streaming
00:43:12 ◼ ► services, most of the streaming services, I'm not sure if there are any, I don't know if there are
00:43:17 ◼ ► any other exceptions. But I know the ones I've looked for so far, as I've been testing it have
00:43:22 ◼ ► all been there as iPad apps, Paramount, Peacock, I don't know, I haven't looked for Amazon,
00:43:27 ◼ ► Hulu, but Disney Plus. Yeah, well, who Yeah, Disney Plus is native and Hulu is there as an iPad app.
00:43:34 ◼ ► But that Apple people were, I'm not gonna say shocked, but they were surprised that Netflix
00:43:48 ◼ ► A, they thought, hey, we've been using it, and it's pretty good. You know, or somebody, one,
00:43:53 ◼ ► one person told me it was good, just not even pretty good, but good. And B, from Apple's
00:43:59 ◼ ► perspective, they, they, I just don't think that they could even believe that anybody would not
00:44:04 ◼ ► want to be on Vision OS on day one. That's the perspective that worries me like that they just
00:44:09 ◼ ► think, well, of course you do this thing is amazing. Wouldn't it be great if I were outside,
00:44:15 ◼ ► I'd want to be on this amazing platform. So therefore, everybody wants to be on this amazing
00:44:19 ◼ ► platform. And then when you're actually outside Apple, and you are Netflix, and you're like,
00:44:23 ◼ ► why in the world are we going to spend all this time on a platform that might only have 200,000
00:44:35 ◼ ► is a native Apple TV app, even though all their TV apps for all the other boxes and the smart TVs out
00:44:42 ◼ ► there all sort of from the same code base, which is a JavaScript based framework that they can't
00:44:48 ◼ ► use on Apple TV, because it's like against the App Store rules for Apple TV. So they already build a
00:44:54 ◼ ► custom app for Apple TV, and they know how much they know exactly how much effort it takes to
00:44:59 ◼ ► keep that up to date. And I think that factors into their decision here on how many people there are.
00:45:05 ◼ ► Steven: Yeah, it's the reason that a lot of games don't chip on Mac, right? Because you have to,
00:45:09 ◼ ► there's obviously the big AAA developers have to be engaged in different ways. But there's a very
00:45:15 ◼ ► long tail of really clever and interesting games that come on to Steam that, you know, every day
00:45:22 ◼ ► that have some of these Steam games over the last year are really fascinating because there'll be
00:45:27 ◼ ► like two or three developers, sometimes even a solo developer, that will launch a game on
00:45:32 ◼ ► Steam that will get millions, millions of concurrent users like incredible or, or hundreds of millions
00:45:38 ◼ ► of downloads total over the space of years is really pretty fantastic success stories there.
00:45:44 ◼ ► But almost all of these developers do not ship a Mac version, because they know they have to buy
00:45:51 ◼ ► Mac hardware, they have to pay for the license, they have to get it registered by Apple,
00:45:55 ◼ ► start up a developer account, do the port, get it over there. And that's just a lot of effort,
00:46:01 ◼ ► right? Now, if you can convince them like, hey, this is a new audience for you that will
00:46:08 ◼ ► expand your horizons and make you more money and blah, blah, blah. That's great. But Apple's been
00:46:18 ◼ ► you have to support the iPad, you have to support the iPhone, because it's literally billions of
00:46:22 ◼ ► users. But Vision Pro doesn't have any of those hooks. I work at a startup now. So I know very
00:46:27 ◼ ► well, you got to convince everybody every day that you have any right to exist, or that you have any
00:46:32 ◼ ► right to their attention. And I think that the arrogance that you spoke about is worrisome,
00:46:38 ◼ ► because you have to keep that hustlers mentality, like the initial YouTube app, which Apple said,
00:46:45 ◼ ► we know that you don't want to do this. But we need YouTube, we need a video app on the phone,
00:46:51 ◼ ► we feel strongly about it, we'll build it for you, which is what they did. We'll make you a nice
00:46:55 ◼ ► icon, we'll build it for you, all you have to do is provide us the API's, and we'll get you all set
00:47:00 ◼ ► up. And of course, that came along with the search deal and all that. But like that was hustling,
00:47:08 ◼ ► and hustling and convincing and selling yourself all that. And of course, once you're the biggest
00:47:14 ◼ ► company in the world, the natural inclination is to rest on your laurels and to assume that
00:47:18 ◼ ► everybody is going to approach the throne and kiss the ring. And you have to be careful about
00:47:21 ◼ ► that mentality creeping into especially such an important new platform. Yeah, and I hate to bring
00:47:28 ◼ ► out the Steve Jobs card, but I'm going to bring it out because I kind of feel like if there's a
00:47:34 ◼ ► lay person's understanding, they might, especially maybe even younger people for whom Steve Jobs is
00:47:39 ◼ ► more of a mythical figure, like Walt Disney was for us growing up. Yeah, you can see him on Twitter,
00:47:45 ◼ ► they talk about him like, oh, you talk about this like you talk about Jurassic Park. Yeah,
00:47:49 ◼ ► or the Jurassic era. I think maybe in the mythical viewing, he was so such a singular genius and so
00:47:58 ◼ ► arrogant and cocky that he exemplified Apple will just do it its own and force people to bend to
00:48:06 ◼ ► their will. But I think in practice, one of his many geniuses was the way that he could ingratiate
00:48:13 ◼ ► himself with partners when he felt like Apple needed it, right? Convince them. Yeah, I'm not
00:48:20 ◼ ► quite saying if Steve Jobs were still running Apple, I mean, so many things would be different.
00:48:23 ◼ ► But I do feel that at some point, not like two weeks ago or 10 days ago, but a time when they
00:48:31 ◼ ► could have gotten it done months ago, if he would have found out Netflix wasn't planning on a native
00:48:36 ◼ ► app, he would have got like Ted Sarandos on the on the phone said, Ted, let's get together and
00:48:43 ◼ ► get together and and sell him on doing vision OS and say, you know, and and I don't know what he'd
00:48:50 ◼ ► have to do to sweeten the pot. They didn't do another keynote for this, you know, giving
00:48:55 ◼ ► somebody a keynote spot, like the singular CEO and the iPhone introduction. Right, right. You know,
00:49:02 ◼ ► that was obviously one thing that Jobs could do to sweeten the pot. But there are even without
00:49:07 ◼ ► keynotes, there's things that he could do something to make them feel special that will put it in
00:49:12 ◼ ► commercials. I don't know what, you know, they'll do something to raise them up and say, this is a
00:49:19 ◼ ► big world. We've got TV Plus, we know that. But you know, we're not Netflix, we need, you know,
00:49:23 ◼ ► Netflix is the best and Netflix deserves to be on vision OS. Let's make this work. Work it out.
00:49:28 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to describe all arrogance to Apple, right? There's definitely
00:49:33 ◼ ► Netflix has pride. They're the biggest streaming platform. They're the truly the monster there and
00:49:38 ◼ ► innovative, initially innovative approach that that one right there won the market share.
00:49:45 ◼ ► And I'm guessing there's all kinds of like ego going on there. One thing I have learned
00:49:51 ◼ ► in covering business and talking to many dozens of millionaires and billionaires and CEOs
00:49:57 ◼ ► is the one thing that I think people still can't internalize when I talk to them about it or tell
00:50:04 ◼ ► them about it, they don't believe me. But how much of these decisions just come down to individual
00:50:08 ◼ ► egos? Like individual people just annoyed, right? Or they're just like irritated or they
00:50:15 ◼ ► don't like someone. And it's like crazy to think somebody would overlook or pass by potential
00:50:22 ◼ ► opportunity for millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars in income or revenue or
00:50:26 ◼ ► whatever, whatever you want, however you want to, to scope the opportunity. But they do all the time
00:50:34 ◼ ► for really petty, silly reasons. And sometimes those reasons are about conviction, right? And
00:50:41 ◼ ► about personal values and in the way that they see the world. And that's look, that's why they
00:50:56 ◼ ► a lot of times it's just petty, it's petty stuff. We were big, where the, you should have come to
00:51:01 ◼ ► us. You should have asked us and the controversy is true on the other side. So sometimes it's just
00:51:06 ◼ ► like petty silliness. Nobody answered an email or didn't feel like it or whatever. It's kind of,
00:51:11 ◼ ► kind of crazy. I think when the Apple TV launched, remember there was something that went down.
00:51:17 ◼ ► It wasn't with Netflix. I can't remember what it was. Do you remember? And it may be was quasi
00:51:24 ◼ ► non-public information, but there was like some stuff that went down with basically broadcasting
00:51:29 ◼ ► and like partners to, for the, for launching the Apple TV, like the obvious people that should have
00:51:34 ◼ ► been there or should be there. And I remember some stuff went down and it's just like, look,
00:51:38 ◼ ► so-and-so was mad. And then they had to send Eddie in and he fixed it or whatever, you know,
00:51:47 ◼ ► get over logic by all of the people who are punditizing about it. They're out there writing
00:51:54 ◼ ► treatises on what the logic of this decision or that decision was at the business level and saying,
00:52:00 ◼ ► oh, they must want to do X, Y, or Z, or they're trying to use it for leverage for ABC. And it's
00:52:05 ◼ ► like, no, man, we just don't like each other. Well, I would say that the, the controversy is
00:52:11 ◼ ► also that Jobs understand that, right? He understood spitefulness, right? And he understood
00:52:16 ◼ ► the power of the billionaire CEO that the buck stops here. And I think he understood that the
00:52:21 ◼ ► opposite, which is that if he could just go direct to them and sell Ted Sarandos on, you guys need to
00:52:28 ◼ ► have a vision OS app that he could make it happen, right? He's like, cause he knows a strong CEO when
00:52:33 ◼ ► he saw one and could know that if Ted Sarandos, if every person lower, like in that sphere of Netflix,
00:52:41 ◼ ► just looked at like engineering and design allocation and the time that they can estimate
00:52:49 ◼ ► that would take, cause Netflix is a really strong engineering and design company. You know, they've
00:52:54 ◼ ► got rock solid infrastructure. Their apps are very good. I might disagree with some of the design
00:53:00 ◼ ► decisions they make, but they're all very thoughtful, right? It's, you know, they're Netflix
00:53:05 ◼ ► because they're good and that they could run this through a formula and conclude logically that it
00:53:14 ◼ ► doesn't make sense for Netflix to jump on vision OS on day one. But if Ted Sarandos came in and said,
00:53:19 ◼ ► Hey, I just talked to Steve, we got to get on this and we need it by Christmas. Then it happens,
00:53:25 ◼ ► right? No, there's a sprint. Everybody works on weekends. There's no questions. It just happens.
00:53:33 ◼ ► I think I said it there, but it's super telling with YouTube. We're back with the original iPhone.
00:53:38 ◼ ► I know that Google and Apple had a bit of a falling out under Steve Jobs because of Android
00:53:43 ◼ ► and talking about spite and bitterness and stuff, but they were literally before there was an app
00:53:49 ◼ ► store. They had a built-in version of YouTube in the system software written by Apple with Google's
00:53:56 ◼ ► collaboration for the backend for three or four years before they spun it out of the OS and said,
00:54:02 ◼ ► okay, now you guys just make your own app. And I remember when they did that and what a-
00:54:13 ◼ ► Yeah, that's it. That was it. Yeah, that was it. It was ads, right? Cause it got big, right?
00:54:18 ◼ ► And all of a sudden it was a thing. It was like, oh, we need to be, we didn't have control over
00:54:22 ◼ ► it. Injecting ads in the video player and the video player at that time was just the system
00:54:27 ◼ ► Right. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. Now I do remember that. Right. Cause it, in 2007, 2008,
00:54:33 ◼ ► 2009, it was just sort of a curiosity. Hey, you can actually watch YouTube on your phone. If you
00:54:40 ◼ ► And YouTube was much smaller then. So it was like really kind of channel based and it was like,
00:54:47 ◼ ► And then Google could obviously see which way the wind was blowing and figured out this was,
00:55:20 ◼ ► Just yeah, just a details thing tomorrow. But one of them is, and it's incredibly frustrating.
00:55:26 ◼ ► When you want to do something on your phone and you know the fastest thing would be to do it and
00:55:33 ◼ ► you can see your phone or your watch pretty well through the vision pro. It doesn't look perfect.
00:55:47 ◼ ► it all falls apart because face ID doesn't work. And every time it just gets me every single time
00:55:54 ◼ ► I've been doing it. I've probably done it 50 times in the last six days where I've thought,
00:55:59 ◼ ► oh, I'll do blank on my phone. Or I see an alert on my phone or something like from an app that I
00:56:04 ◼ ► don't have on vision pro while I'm using it. Pick it up and nope, nothing. And I'm like, what? Why?
00:56:14 ◼ ► Well, it's a testament, right? To how good face ID really is. And everybody was so worried about
00:56:23 ◼ ► It's so automatic that my brain or my instincts think it doesn't exist. It's as though my phone
00:56:36 ◼ ► when you're sitting down and you're static, you just sort of forget that you don't forget.
00:56:41 ◼ ► You've got a weight on your face, but you just kind of forget that you don't look like you and
00:56:45 ◼ ► you've, you've got a big black mask on. So no, your phone does not unlock. I kind of hope that
00:56:52 ◼ ► this is, you know, so my second, my follow-up on that is that I hope that they're working on
00:56:58 ◼ ► something like the way that your watch can unlock your phone when you're wearing like a COVID face
00:57:05 ◼ ► mask. Right? Remember for a long time, you've been able to, maybe even since Apple watch came out,
00:57:10 ◼ ► you've been able to unlock your watch with your phone. So like when you wake up in the morning
00:57:16 ◼ ► and your watch is locked, you put your watch on your wrist. You don't have to type the code on
00:57:20 ◼ ► your wrist. You can just pick up your phone and do face ID there. And then you get a little
00:57:25 ◼ ► notification at the top. Your app, John's Apple watch was unlocked with iPhone. And now after the
00:57:32 ◼ ► whole 2020 thing where people started wearing face masks all the time, they added the feature that
00:57:39 ◼ ► works the other way where if you want, you can opt into if your Apple watch is on your wrist and has
00:57:47 ◼ ► been unlocked, then you can unlock your phone while you're wearing a mask, something like that.
00:57:52 ◼ ► - Well, Optic ID is their scanning method for determining it's you, right? And the Vision Pro,
00:57:59 ◼ ► it's there, it uses the cameras in the headset to recognize your iris and says, this is uniquely you.
00:58:05 ◼ ► And if that's true, it seems like your phone could say, hey, the headset is currently on
00:58:16 ◼ ► - Yeah. So maybe it has to have occurred to people at Apple, right? Every single person
00:58:22 ◼ ► it's what we're talking about has probably been discussed ad nauseum. So there's probably
00:58:30 ◼ ► - Yeah. But it has to be on their list. If they had the feature, I don't think they would quite
00:58:37 ◼ ► brag about it because they don't want to insinuate that there's anything you would need to do on your
00:58:48 ◼ ► - Yeah. Honestly, one thing I would like to do with it is I would like to use the keyboard,
00:58:58 ◼ ► - Mm-hmm. Totally. All the time. Because I use a third-party remote. I don't even use Apples.
00:59:16 ◼ ► it has its own voice recognition, but it doesn't integrate with Apple TV directly that way.
00:59:24 ◼ ► - Yeah. I forget some of the contexts where I need to type on Apple TV. I guess sometimes
00:59:31 ◼ ► - Well, passwords, so I usually can unlock from the key chain, but sometimes you can't.
00:59:36 ◼ ► And sometimes it's like your app forgot and wants you to go to a website and get a six-digit code
00:59:42 ◼ ► and type this in. And it's, oh, it's so much easier to just pick up your phone and it just
00:59:47 ◼ ► switches and you can just type on your phone. I would love to do that with Vision Pro because
00:59:52 ◼ ► typing on the virtual keyboard is so tedious. So that would be one, but that's a very good
01:00:01 ◼ ► question. What else? I guess that leads into the sort of crappy typing experience on Vision OS.
01:00:09 ◼ ► - Yeah. So the peek and poke, right? Like that's the main keyboard option is just the look and poke,
01:00:20 ◼ ► - Right. Right. It's one of the few things in the system, and I mentioned it, but I'm not quite sure
01:00:27 ◼ ► how clear this is, right? And you remember this from June, like when we first tried it.
01:00:32 ◼ ► Everybody's first instinct when they try this thing is you're like, wow, this looks amazing.
01:00:37 ◼ ► And then you get, oh, and they're like, press the digital crown and it makes the home view
01:00:41 ◼ ► of apps appear right in front of you. And then you're like, oh, I want to launch Safari. And
01:00:46 ◼ ► you reach out and poke at the Safari in front of you. And your finger, it's close enough to you
01:00:51 ◼ ► that your finger goes right through it and nothing happens because that's not the interaction model.
01:00:56 ◼ ► You don't poke at Safari's icon in front of you. You just stare at it and do the little
01:01:08 ◼ ► minutes to get the hang of. You're just like very quickly, you're like, oh, you don't actually poke.
01:01:11 ◼ ► - Yeah, poking only seems right until you have to do it for more than five minutes. And you're like,
01:01:17 ◼ ► - But when you get the virtual keyboard, you can do it either way. You can actually poke
01:01:23 ◼ ► your index finger at the keys on the end. It does place the keyboard lower. It's down sort of by your
01:01:30 ◼ ► rib cage. So you're not poking out in front of you because then it would obscure the window you're
01:01:35 ◼ ► looking at, right? So the window that you're trying to type in is at eye level. And then a
01:01:41 ◼ ► keyboard appears where you look down a little bit, but you just sort of poke your fingers at it.
01:01:47 ◼ ► I always heard that's how Tolkien typed, that he just typed with his two index fingers.
01:01:59 ◼ ► - But you can also look at the keys and pinch them. But as far as I can tell, either way,
01:02:06 ◼ ► it's incredibly inefficient. I mean, it's really not much better than poking at the tiny little
01:02:13 ◼ ► pencil tip keys on the Apple Watch keyboard. It's just, I don't know what else they could do,
01:02:21 ◼ ► - It seems like people were expecting the most common, I don't know either, right? I have played
01:02:27 ◼ ► with a variety of virtual keyboards over the years, given that the Quest keyboards, they have their
01:02:33 ◼ ► own approach. The Meta's approach is to use the remotes as pointers, right? And then the clicks
01:02:40 ◼ ► as type, the click of your trigger finger, which doesn't work too bad. Once again, it limits your
01:02:45 ◼ ► arm motion, right? You're sort of like just twisting your wrist and then you click to type
01:02:50 ◼ ► out. It's still not ideal, but it is relatively... It's okay, right? You could type 25 characters
01:02:59 ◼ ► and be okay, but you could never type 200. It would feel awful, right? I think the one thing
01:03:04 ◼ ► that I think most people or the paradigm that most people expected to see or were hoping to see,
01:03:15 ◼ ► with the ability to tap on it as if you were typing on any other keyboard. And it seems like
01:03:21 ◼ ► that could theoretically be possible with Apple's hand occlusion, which is quite good. So it would
01:03:27 ◼ ► pass the keyboard through your hands and you could see what was going on. But I don't know how it
01:03:31 ◼ ► would work in practice, but I'm guessing that they've tried it internally. It seems like they
01:03:40 ◼ ► when you're doing X, Y, or Z where you reach up and if your hand obscures it, they'll just make
01:03:46 ◼ ► your hand disappear, like if something's close enough to you. But it's super unsettling when
01:03:53 ◼ ► your hand disappears. I swear, it's like there's a part of your lizard brain that just says,
01:04:00 ◼ ► "Oh my God, I lost my hand." Right? It's like we're not hooked up, like millions of years
01:04:10 ◼ ► of evolution have not hooked up our brains to accept not seeing our hands when it's literally
01:04:16 ◼ ► in front of our face. And so I feel, and I also think there's just too many people who need to
01:04:22 ◼ ► look at the keyboard while they type. And I've even noticed, I mean, I obviously have written
01:04:30 ◼ ► a lot over, typed a lot over the years. I can type with my eyes closed or without looking at
01:04:36 ◼ ► the keyboard, but I realized this week that I do look at the keyboard. I just don't even realize
01:04:43 ◼ ► that I do. I don't need to, but I do sometimes. It's weird having the windows you're typing into
01:04:50 ◼ ► be so far away from the keyboard you're typing on. I mean, and there's other contexts where people
01:04:55 ◼ ► do this. You can hook up a keyboard to an Apple TV, or you can have a computer with a TV set,
01:05:03 ◼ ► or somehow have a display for your TV that's not even close to the keyboard. But with VisionOS,
01:05:10 ◼ ► it's just a little unusual. I don't know. They do a neat thing with the hardware keyboard.
01:05:26 ◼ ► smarter minds than ours have probably tried a variety of permutations inside Apple. And
01:05:31 ◼ ► what they came up with was just to use a Bluetooth keyboard, right? If you really want to go at it
01:05:36 ◼ ► typing. Yeah. And I don't know. I'm sure somewhere, I'm sure Apple's been working on it. Like you
01:05:42 ◼ ► said, I'm sure every company has been working on somehow a projected virtual keyboard on a tabletop
01:05:53 ◼ ► we could go off on our own tangents about our love of mechanical keyboards or whatever.
01:06:15 ◼ ► Yeah. Look, I have some used those laser projected keyboards before. They don't work very well,
01:06:21 ◼ ► but I've used them. I'm probably one of a handful of people that have ever tried those dumb things.
01:06:39 ◼ ► No, no, I never had one. I didn't have a TV growing up, so I also didn't hold any console.
01:06:47 ◼ ► Well, Google it right now. There were two, there were two sibling computers from Atari. These,
01:06:52 ◼ ► these were like Apple two competitors, not game consoles. They have 400, the 400 and the 800 now.
01:06:59 ◼ ► Okay. Now like any good computer, I recognize these now. Yes. Now, like any good computer
01:07:10 ◼ ► think of as a mid eighties home computer. It was age. It had a keyboard, it had a bunch of
01:07:16 ◼ ► weird buttons. That's all right. 400 was cheaper. And the keyboard, I mean, how would you describe
01:07:22 ◼ ► this? Oh, you know what it is? It's the old style McDonald's kiosk. Yes. Yes. They're like,
01:07:30 ◼ ► Oh, big Mac. Hold on. Oh, no cheese. But they're constantly pressing with their thumbs, right?
01:07:40 ◼ ► Gripping the side of the register because it's so hard to get it to register all the key.
01:07:49 ◼ ► a link to this in the show notes. I will try to get this as the album art for this segment
01:07:54 ◼ ► of the conversation. So you could just, just look at the album art in your podcast pair. It's just,
01:08:10 ◼ ► every one of my friends, even ones who weren't as enthusiastic, well, none of them were as
01:08:15 ◼ ► enthusiastic about computers, but even the least enthusiastic about computers, friends that I had,
01:08:24 ◼ ► everybody agreed. This was the stupidest keyboard ever made. Well, let's think about keyboards. It's
01:08:29 ◼ ► so weird. You can argue the refinements all you want, right? You can argue all kinds of different
01:08:37 ◼ ► things like, like switch clickiness and types of switches and butterfly versus not and throw and
01:08:44 ◼ ► all of that stuff. However, if you throw a keyboard in an average person, they can make a very valid
01:08:51 ◼ ► and honest assessment of whether or not it's easy for them to type on it. Because none of that
01:08:57 ◼ ► matters if it's not easy to type on it. Like you can research the most wonderful click and all that.
01:09:03 ◼ ► And if that's your bag, go at it, you know, have fun, right? Enjoy. But every individual person
01:09:10 ◼ ► can make a very sound assessment of their own response to that keeper. They're like, Oh,
01:09:15 ◼ ► I don't like this. Right? Do like my wife is, you know, hates the short throw keyboards does not
01:09:19 ◼ ► even really a huge fan of the longer throw new ones because she likes a deeper, a deeper press,
01:09:25 ◼ ► which I empathize with. I do too, but she also hates clicks. So it's like a weird thing. It's
01:09:31 ◼ ► a dichotomy, but every person gets sort of evaluate that that's why user interfaces like this.
01:09:35 ◼ ► I think people get to especially computer people get so defensive about, Oh, look at all the design
01:09:42 ◼ ► that went into X or look at all of the energy and behind the scenes effort that made X or Y or Z
01:09:48 ◼ ► happen. This is very similar to the whole era of short throw MacBook keyboards, right? The easily
01:09:54 ◼ ► jammable keyboards, slimmest ever most beautiful design, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It didn't
01:10:04 ◼ ► I'm sure somebody in Atari was like, look, there's less moving parts in this than ever before.
01:10:09 ◼ ► There's less wear and tear. This is a miracle of design. And then somebody uses it the moment they
01:10:25 ◼ ► - Right. Because one single panel of pressure sensitive membranes versus key individual keys,
01:10:32 ◼ ► and they're like, Oh my God, we can roll this off of a sheet. It'll cost us pennies on the dollar.
01:10:40 ◼ ► If you drop water between the keys, cause there's plastic membrane covering all of them.
01:10:47 ◼ ► - What flat keyboards that do work, I guess the iPad is a good example. Right. And the phone,
01:10:53 ◼ ► but even there because it's software, not just projected, you get the popovers to tell you which
01:10:59 ◼ ► keys you're pressing. So it could work. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure Apple has thought
01:11:04 ◼ ► of other ideas, but I'm not surprised that the keyboard in the air from VisionOS is not great
01:11:11 ◼ ► to type on. And again, if you just need to enter like a B right there, or I don't know,
01:11:21 ◼ ► - Oh yeah. And for example, I think when it first boots up, just like the other devices,
01:11:27 ◼ ► you can't use optic ID the first time after a cold boot, you have to type in your six digit passcode.
01:11:33 ◼ ► So typing a passcode six, or even if you set it to eight digits or whatever, to be more secure,
01:11:38 ◼ ► that's not too bad. But actually writing, or even just having a messages chat where you're,
01:11:46 ◼ ► maybe you're writing brief sentences, but you're going back and forth, it's not gonna fly.
01:12:06 ◼ ► that I had to cut. Well, I didn't have to cut, but I mean, I gotta draw the line somewhere.
01:12:11 ◼ ► But it is unusual because there's only two hardware buttons on the Vision Pro, right? There's
01:12:16 ◼ ► the digital crown, which spins and you'd spin it mostly to go in and out of reality. And if you
01:12:23 ◼ ► just adjust your eye a little bit, when you start spinning it and it adjusts the immersive
01:12:30 ◼ ► environment you have currently selected, and right next to it is a volume indicator. And if you just
01:12:36 ◼ ► look at the volume indicator instead, then you're spinning the volume. Very nice. Two things. One,
01:12:42 ◼ ► on the left is your visual immersiveness and on the right is volume, spinning the crown. Tap the
01:12:49 ◼ ► crown, it takes you to what they, it's not the home screen, it's the home view because it always
01:12:56 ◼ ► is super important. You know, your apps don't disappear. On the iPhone, you hit home, you go
01:13:01 ◼ ► home and your app disappears and you go to the home screen. In Vision OS, the home view is like
01:13:08 ◼ ► a temporary HUD that appears in front of whatever you're doing at any time. That's a single tap.
01:13:14 ◼ ► And a long tap on the digital, this is all through the digital crown, long tap re-centers your current
01:13:20 ◼ ► view. So if you've turned to the side, if you were previously laying in bed and now you're sitting up
01:13:28 ◼ ► in bed and all your windows are now in the wrong position, just long press it where you want them
01:13:33 ◼ ► to be centered, where your current gaze is and it goes there. So for the most part, the only button
01:13:38 ◼ ► I ever touch on the thing is the crown. I tap it, I long press it and I spin it. The other button,
01:13:45 ◼ ► which they just called the top button, I love it. I wonder, I always wonder how much time and I,
01:13:53 ◼ ► you know, I think they probably spend a lot of time. Like, should they give it a clever name?
01:14:00 ◼ ► - Yeah. On the iPhone, it's just the side button. So the top button is hardly ever used.
01:14:09 ◼ ► The most common use case I've had for it is taking screenshots. You take a screenshot by pressing
01:14:14 ◼ ► both buttons and releasing at the same time. But if you just single press it, it's like a capture
01:14:19 ◼ ► button. That is my guess as to if there was a specific name for the top button, they were
01:14:26 ◼ ► gonna call it the capture button, which some people like, I forget who, if it was Gurman or somebody
01:14:31 ◼ ► else who's rumored that the iPhone 16 next year is going to have a quote unquote capture button.
01:14:38 ◼ ► But you single tap it and it takes you into capture mode. So camera is not an app in Vision
01:14:47 ◼ ► OS. There is no camera app. And I checked with developer friends, there are no APIs to access
01:14:54 ◼ ► the camera. So you can't make a camera app. I mean, maybe someday, but as of right now,
01:15:21 ◼ ► and there was this sort of society wide, well, not all of society, but the sort of society who might
01:15:29 ◼ ► encounter a Google Glassware in person. This idea that, hey, this is creepy that these people have
01:15:36 ◼ ► a camera on their face and they may or may not be recording you or taking your photo and you don't
01:15:41 ◼ ► even know what they're doing. And I remember it was a thing. I mean, I'm sure you remember too,
01:15:46 ◼ ► like in San Francisco in particular, there were bars that put up signs like no Google Glass.
01:15:54 ◼ ► - One of our reporters famously got kind of accosted over it, but back when he was at a
01:15:59 ◼ ► previous publication, but still, yeah. It was definitely a thing, a social thing that I think
01:16:04 ◼ ► Apple wanted to dodge very, very crisply as they're trying to roll this thing out. They didn't want
01:16:09 ◼ ► to, you were going to have to tackle how to handle those social norms and how to talk about that kind
01:16:15 ◼ ► of thing. But if you're going to do that, you should do these things one at a time. Right?
01:16:25 ◼ ► these Meta glasses. They do record, but they don't do squat else right now. But they have these
01:16:31 ◼ ► internal AI features that they've been testing and playing around with. And you know that, oh,
01:16:35 ◼ ► you can do all kinds of other assistant things with them. But right now, all they do is their
01:16:40 ◼ ► camera glasses. And Snap broke that ground for them to Snap's credit. And like everybody kind
01:16:44 ◼ ► of goes, oh yeah, those are those glasses cameras and probably some Google Glass stuff woven in
01:16:50 ◼ ► there. Right? But like, I think that's not a battle that Apple wanted to tackle with this phase
01:17:05 ◼ ► it's very hard for me to, I guess I got to stand in front of the mirror and play with it more to
01:17:10 ◼ ► see it because you can't see what other people see. But what I've seen in Apple's own media demos to
01:17:17 ◼ ► me is that when you Snap a photo using the camera button, so you hit it once to go to capture mode.
01:17:25 ◼ ► And then there's just a simple two-way segmented controller, video or still, or I guess photo,
01:17:32 ◼ ► it says. And then you can just stare at whichever mode you want, photo or video, and do a finger
01:17:38 ◼ ► tap and it turns yellow. And it does have the camera app UI aesthetic with the sort of etched
01:17:46 ◼ ► Leica style version of San Francisco as the font. But it's really super simple. All you,
01:17:53 ◼ ► there's only two modes are photo and video. It only shoots spatial photos and spatial videos.
01:17:59 ◼ ► There's no other way to shoot. And if you're taking a still photo, then to shoot it, you
01:18:11 ◼ ► And what happens to anybody who's looking at you is that the screen on the front of your Vision Pro
01:18:17 ◼ ► flashes white, like a flash. If you see a white flash while they're tapping a physical button
01:18:27 ◼ ► on top, they can't. And I think that is part of the part of it, the bigger sign, because nobody,
01:18:34 ◼ ► a lay person has no idea what the white flash means, but they do know that you're pressing
01:18:39 ◼ ► a button right above your eye, right up right above your left eye, which kind of looks like
01:18:44 ◼ ► snapping the shutter button of a camera, right? I mean, there's the physical press of the button
01:18:49 ◼ ► is the bigger hint, you know, as to what you're doing. And then when you shoot a video,
01:18:55 ◼ ► I forget what it shows, but it's some sort of like a Cylon animation that's white that goes back and
01:19:01 ◼ ► forth across the visor to show that you are recording a video at this time. So there is some
01:19:11 ◼ ► visual indication, but it's because it's completely abstract. I'm not quite sure how like a lay person
01:19:17 ◼ ► out on the street would know, oh, this creep with the weird goggles is shooting a video because his
01:19:28 ◼ ► something. Right. And, but the bigger thing is that you have to press this physical button.
01:19:32 ◼ ► You can't just like the rest. Your hands gotta be up at the level of your eyes and like doing
01:19:42 ◼ ► but a real Tesla or whatever. Yeah. So the photos and videos, they're not quite what I expected.
01:19:51 ◼ ► It's weird because they so perfectly match your first person perspective within the headset.
01:19:58 ◼ ► When you replay them in the headset, it's, it really is like being there. It's way more like
01:20:07 ◼ ► being there than when you look at the spatial videos that you have shot over the last two or
01:20:12 ◼ ► three months on your iPhone 15, because it's, it's like a one-to-one match of what you would see
01:20:18 ◼ ► anyway. And so if you sit in a seat and you stay perfectly still, and you're looking at, say your
01:20:26 ◼ ► living room with vision pro on your face, and then you go into capture mode and shoot either a still
01:20:35 ◼ ► or a video and you don't move at all. And then you look at that still go to the photos app and open
01:20:42 ◼ ► up that still, and you still haven't moved. It looks like you're looking at reality because it's
01:20:48 ◼ ► exactly what you would see if you weren't looking at a photo. Right. And then if you move your head,
01:20:54 ◼ ► even just a little, it is like, Whoa, what's wrong. This device is broken because all of a
01:20:59 ◼ ► sudden it doesn't move or it doesn't move to match your head. Right. It's, it's really weird in the
01:21:06 ◼ ► moment to go back and review the photo because it just, it doesn't look like you're looking at a
01:21:10 ◼ ► photo or a video. It just looks like you're, it looks like you're looking at a replay of what you
01:21:15 ◼ ► just did. That is interesting because the FOVs match precisely and you've got a stereoscopic
01:21:24 ◼ ► capture mode and a stereoscopic display mode. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I'm
01:21:29 ◼ ► not quite sure what to make of it. And I still think like when I wrote about the spatial video
01:21:33 ◼ ► experience shooting with iPhone, I think it's so hard to judge in the moment because I think all
01:21:37 ◼ ► of these things, their true utility is really only going to happen when they're old enough to have
01:21:49 ◼ ► like it just happened. I just saw it happen. But it's, Oh, this, you know, my kid's 14 and they
01:21:54 ◼ ► were six in this picture. That's a lot different thing. But it, but it doesn't because the,
01:22:00 ◼ ► the perspective and you can't zoom in or zoom out. It's, it's just capturing the first person
01:22:10 ◼ ► while doing pass through video. So it's not, it's not something you'd really want to use
01:22:19 ◼ ► as a camera. Right. Like I kind of, and I almost. I always had a hard time envisioning that. I mean,
01:22:26 ◼ ► I know that they wanted to build this and they needed to build the functionality to shoot spatial
01:22:30 ◼ ► video in which makes total sense. I just am not going to run and grab that headset and put it on
01:22:37 ◼ ► to take spatial video, walk around the house. I just don't see it. I could be wrong. Mine comes
01:22:42 ◼ ► in a couple of weeks. We'll see, maybe it'll happen. I mean, it'll certainly happen when
01:22:46 ◼ ► I'm testing it. Oh, do it on purpose. Right. Because I'm me. Right. But are you telling the
01:22:52 ◼ ► average person that they're going to say, Oh my God, we're going to do the blowing out of the
01:22:56 ◼ ► candles now. Hold on. Let me go get my headset. Yeah. Yeah. With your iPhone, I guess. Yeah.
01:23:02 ◼ ► There's something interesting. There's like a mismatch between the social nature of photos,
01:23:09 ◼ ► how we all like show people photos on our phone or the slide shows where that we send to each other,
01:23:16 ◼ ► like the daily slide show, which by the way, is probably one of the best acting Apple features
01:23:21 ◼ ► I've seen built in a decade as far as photos go. Anyway, those daily slide shows that it delivers
01:23:27 ◼ ► you, that it auto creates you incredible work by that team. So whoever's working on that good job,
01:23:44 ◼ ► I still, at this point I'm like, well, they surely they've run out of photos that are going to give
01:23:48 ◼ ► me the fields from my library and I'm going to start getting reruns and no, they just dredging
01:23:54 ◼ ► up these pictures of my son when he was three years old in 2007. Oh my God. I don't even
01:24:01 ◼ ► remember that trip to the slide show of your son. And then in the background, it's a father and son,
01:24:07 ◼ ► but I can't see if it's just something you're like, Oh my God, I'm dying over here. Anyhow,
01:24:11 ◼ ► long story short, like those kinds of experiences I think are one of those things where you're
01:24:16 ◼ ► sharing it with somebody or you send it to your wife or you send it to a group of friends because
01:24:20 ◼ ► they were on that trip or whatever. And it's just the vision pro, which you mentioned in your
01:24:25 ◼ ► review, which I think other people did as well. It is inherently an isolating experience, right?
01:24:30 ◼ ► To some degree. Now the pass through attempts to mitigate that by showing you the world around you.
01:24:35 ◼ ► And of course the eyesight is for the other people so that they don't feel isolated from you,
01:24:40 ◼ ► even though you have it on, but it's inherently a singular solo experience for now until they figure
01:24:48 ◼ ► out the interconnectivity of it all more or make it so that opening multiple of these in a household
01:24:53 ◼ ► is more likely AKA it's a lot cheaper and a lot lighter, but that's kind of where the taking
01:24:58 ◼ ► photos and looking at that kind of mismatches with the reality of how we actually do those things.
01:25:09 ◼ ► that matches exactly how we consume photos. It hits us personally. And then we're able to share
01:25:15 ◼ ► with others in the same state that we look at it. Cause it's like, if you send a spatial video that
01:25:20 ◼ ► you shot to somebody they're like, cool, this is a regular video shot, just maybe slightly lower
01:25:24 ◼ ► resolution. Whereas you looking at it, at it in your vision pro, you're like, no, it's really
01:25:29 ◼ ► cool. Look, you can do all this. And then, but right now that's a solo isolated experience.
01:25:40 ◼ ► I remember back in June when they announced this thinking, I wasn't alone. I think probably half
01:25:46 ◼ ► the people watching the keynote all had the same thought at some point towards the end of the
01:25:50 ◼ ► vision pro segment, which was, Oh, wouldn't it be cool if the next iPhone could shoot video like
01:25:54 ◼ ► that? Right. I mean, it's kind of obvious that if it wasn't coordinated to come two or three months
01:26:01 ◼ ► later with the iPhone 15, that it would come with the iPhone 16. And it did. And it was pretty cool.
01:26:08 ◼ ► It is pretty cool. I'm glad I shot, I've shot some over the last few months, especially at family
01:26:13 ◼ ► of things with kids. But I've been thinking the whole time that shooting spatial video with the
01:26:20 ◼ ► phone is the B team spatial video. Cause it's with the phone and the lenses are too close to
01:26:26 ◼ ► each other. And the one lens is really only a 0.5 with a small sensor and blah, blah, blah. So it's
01:26:33 ◼ ► only 10 ADP and it's only 30 frames per second. And it's the sort of graininess cause they've
01:26:41 ◼ ► got to do this tight sensor crop on the ultra wide to get an image like the 1.5 or the 1.0,
01:26:47 ◼ ► blah, blah, blah. And boy, when we get the vision pro, however goofy it'll be to shoot video while
01:26:58 ◼ ► And I kind of think, no, I actually don't think the spatial video is better. I think it is more
01:27:04 ◼ ► personal and it is more, it is certainly more first person perspective, but I don't think
01:27:10 ◼ ► it's better. And I think the only time I'll end up using it is when I happen to be already using
01:27:18 ◼ ► vision pro and something serendipitous happens. Oh my God, I got to get a picture of that guy.
01:27:22 ◼ ► Guy comes in, like I'm on the airplane. I put the vision pro on to set up and watch a movie
01:27:29 ◼ ► or something like that. And the guy next to me is taking his shoes off, picking his toes. And I'm
01:27:32 ◼ ► like, I got to get a picture of this pig. I can't imagine like the scenario they showed at WWDC where
01:27:41 ◼ ► the dad at the birthday party goes to get the vision pro and puts it on to shoot the birthday
01:27:46 ◼ ► cake. I can't see not using your phone for that. Even if it is slightly more three-dimensional
01:27:52 ◼ ► shooting from the vision pro because the cameras are eye width apart instead of right next to each
01:27:57 ◼ ► other. I don't think the quality is even better, let alone whatever weirdness people might feel
01:28:03 ◼ ► about being the dad at the party who puts a $3,500 headset on. I don't even think it gets that far.
01:28:09 ◼ ► I think even somebody who's not the least bit embarrassed about wearing it in front of a party
01:28:14 ◼ ► full of kids and other parents. This is a distinct benefit from that. Even if you're not the least
01:28:19 ◼ ► bit embarrassed or self-conscious about it, I still don't think you would do it, but we shall see.
01:28:24 ◼ ► If you want to long-term convince people to keep doing this, to keep shooting spatial video,
01:28:30 ◼ ► I think, and maybe this is just an iOS 18 thing, but you really need a display mode on the phone
01:28:37 ◼ ► that has parallax, right? You need to like be able to play back the video, tilt your phone,
01:28:42 ◼ ► and use the accelerometer in the phone and the depth information to basically give you a 3D-ish
01:28:48 ◼ ► video right on your phone. And it's possible. You can do it. I've seen it. I actually saw it happen
01:28:53 ◼ ► back when they first introduced the depth camera. There were some developers that hacked together
01:28:57 ◼ ► a version of that back then. So I'm sure Apple can do it now, first party in a much crisper fashion.
01:29:03 ◼ ► But I think it's a way to tell people this is a special kind of video. It does a cool thing. And
01:29:10 ◼ ► it's an advertisement for Vision Pro because they're like, "What if you wanted to see this
01:29:13 ◼ ► in real 3D? Like you wanted to step into the photo, go watch it on your $3,500 TV." So I think
01:29:20 ◼ ► it's, I think that's for me, bang for your buck, I think that will be coming, but it needs to happen.
01:29:26 ◼ ► - All right, let me take a break here. I'll thank our second sponsor of the show. And it is our
01:29:30 ◼ ► very good friends at Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform where you can build your
01:29:38 ◼ ► brand online. Everything you need to do to have your own website, domain name registration,
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01:30:03 ◼ ► You do it all through Squarespace. It's a design app. It is a CMS for posting entries and new
01:30:11 ◼ ► content like blog posts or podcasts. All of it is built into the Squarespace platform. And it's
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01:30:24 ◼ ► tweak, alter your website right in the web browser itself. You don't need to know HTML. You don't
01:30:30 ◼ ► need to know CSS. You don't need to know JavaScript. You don't even need to know the difference
01:30:35 ◼ ► between HTML, CSS and JavaScript. You can just do it all by drag and drop in the browser.
01:30:40 ◼ ► But in the old days, it was always primarily a desktop browser first type thing. Their new
01:30:46 ◼ ► fluid engine, their latest version of the layout engine that they have for you to tweak your
01:30:51 ◼ ► Squarespace site, not only still of course works great in desktop browsers, but it works great in
01:30:57 ◼ ► phone browsers, tablet browsers as well. Safari on your iPhone. You can just design your entire
01:31:03 ◼ ► Squarespace site from soup to nuts right there on your phone. If you're like a phone first person,
01:31:09 ◼ ► it is really, really just next generation stuff. Very impressive. I've played around with it and
01:31:14 ◼ ► it's almost too good to be true for what you can do in a phone web browser. Why does Squarespace
01:31:20 ◼ ► keep sponsoring the talk show? Because people who listen to the show keep signing up for Squarespace.
01:31:30 ◼ ► what do I do to get a website?" Send them to Squarespace. Give them my URL. They'll know
01:31:34 ◼ ► they came here. Even if the person who came to you for help doesn't even know who I am,
01:31:49 ◼ ► remembering that code talk show without the "the," just T-A-L-K-S-H-O-W, you save 10% off your first
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01:32:02 ◼ ► to squarespace.com/talkshow. So my gimmick, or I always say gimmick, but my framework for my review
01:32:12 ◼ ► was sort of shamelessly playing off Steve Jobs' "Three Things in One," because I really see this
01:32:18 ◼ ► as three things in one. There's this 1.0 hardware. There's the platform for spatial computing, where
01:32:26 ◼ ► you've got windows, you got notes, you got your mail, you got your messages, you got Safari,
01:32:31 ◼ ► you can make a new Safari window, you could have two windows, each of them with multiple tabs.
01:32:35 ◼ ► You can have a thing in the background. Who knows what other apps people are going to come out with,
01:32:46 ◼ ► Credible meaning you can actually do it today. If you can work in iPad today, if you can get your
01:32:51 ◼ ► work done in iPad, on an iPad, in iPadOS, you can definitely get the same work done in VisionOS,
01:32:58 ◼ ► and I think be a lot more productive or feel mentally freer because you can spread out more
01:33:10 ◼ ► you have to visualize that the other windows are left, right, top, or bottom, wherever they are,
01:33:17 ◼ ► which I grew used to. I spent many years working iPad first, anytime I was away from my desk.
01:33:26 ◼ ► You're invisible, but hanging out over there. And I know this stuff is invisible hanging out
01:33:30 ◼ ► over there, and I can quickly swipe to it. But with this, there's no swiping. They're just hanging
01:33:35 ◼ ► in there and always accessible. So it's even less cognitive load to remember the spatial relationship.
01:33:47 ◼ ► productivity fans in particular are really going to love and sing the praises of VisionOS.
01:34:03 ◼ ► and this to me is where the product is simply spectacular, is as an entertainment device to watch
01:34:09 ◼ ► movies and these 3D immersive things. And I've tinkered around with some games, but not a ton.
01:34:15 ◼ ► I just ran out of time and I'm just, I figured somebody else will cover the gaming part for today.
01:34:21 ◼ ► But the movie watching experience, I just can't let this podcast go by. I guess it's supposed to
01:34:30 ◼ ► be my job to put into words, hard to describe things. Isn't that so funny? Sometimes you just,
01:34:37 ◼ ► the words are, it's a weird thing because you know what the right words may be, but you also end up in
01:34:47 ◼ ► this place where you're like, but that seems too orderly. Those words in that order seem so obvious.
01:34:53 ◼ ► My job is not just to bring the words, it's also to put it in a unique way, unique order, right?
01:35:04 ◼ ► order of the words is the right order. I just don't know how to convey in words how big
01:35:13 ◼ ► the movies, how legitimately like IMAX with an X, not with the Apple way, like a big IMAX movie
01:35:23 ◼ ► screen in front of you, big, like you just, it seems impossible that you can do this. And the
01:35:29 ◼ ► regular viewing of regular videos, like when you bust out a YouTube video from Safari into a
01:35:37 ◼ ► standalone video player in a window, or the way that the videos look when you play them from all
01:35:43 ◼ ► of these iPad apps like Peacock and Paramount plus, et cetera, are scaled to the size of your
01:35:51 ◼ ► physical environment. So you can make it as big as your living room wall, however big that is,
01:36:01 ◼ ► right? And that is huge. And like I wrote in my review, watching football on Sunday, watching the
01:36:08 ◼ ► first half of the one game in Vision Pro in my living room where I have a 77 inch OLED TV that
01:36:14 ◼ ► I spent $5,000 on a couple of years ago, expensive TV that at 77, I know it's not the biggest TV you
01:36:22 ◼ ► can get, but at the time it was the biggest OLED TV you can get. It's pretty, 77 inches is pretty
01:36:26 ◼ ► big, but to be able to watch this football game in a window that looked like four of them arranged in
01:36:36 ◼ ► a quadrant, maybe even bigger, I guess, even bigger than four of my 77 inch TVs, and then switch back
01:36:43 ◼ ► to watching on TV because my wife came downstairs and was going to watch with me and I wanted to be
01:36:47 ◼ ► a real human being and take this. Yeah, for an afternoon, while I'm in this crunch time where
01:36:55 ◼ ► she's really graciously tolerated an enormous amount of face time with me while I was wearing
01:37:02 ◼ ► the thing. Not uppercase face time, but just actual human being face time. So I took it off
01:37:08 ◼ ► and I was like, "Oh God, I'm not going to..." I didn't complain to her at the time because I
01:37:12 ◼ ► didn't want it, you know, she'd be like, "Oh, just put the damn thing back on." I really wanted to
01:37:16 ◼ ► watch these games with her, but I was sitting there thinking, "Oh my God, my TV is so small."
01:37:21 ◼ ► And that's the normal Paramount+ iPad app that I can only make the video look as big as my living
01:37:30 ◼ ► room wall. But that's big, the size of my living room wall, and that alone makes my 77 inch TV
01:37:38 ◼ ► look too small. But when you're in Apple's TV app and you go into their virtual theater mode,
01:37:53 ◼ ► and you can go floor level or balcony level. And I think, I actually don't know this, I
01:37:59 ◼ ► realized that while I was just saying that, I'm not quite sure if you can fake being front row
01:38:08 ◼ ► from the balcony, which really wouldn't be able to exist in a real theater, but I think that they let
01:38:12 ◼ ► you because why not? Why not give you an impossible balcony? But it's so big. Like when you sit in the
01:38:20 ◼ ► front row, the screen is... it's not like being in a bad front row movie seat, like when you go
01:38:26 ◼ ► to the movie theater. Is it more like IMAX? Because remember, even in the front row in IMAX,
01:38:42 ◼ ► JS - Yeah, it's a little more like that where it's like a generous theater that didn't put front row
01:38:51 ◼ ► JS - They don't have those floor seats that are right down there in the front. It's the front row
01:38:57 ◼ ► JS - Right. You know, I don't know. I think everybody's been stuck with like front row left
01:39:03 ◼ ► seats for a blockbuster movie. And you know, there's always somebody in the group or the
01:39:09 ◼ ► couple who's to blame for being a little late to the theater. Those dirty looks you get where
01:39:15 ◼ ► you're like two hours at this perspective. JS - My wife and I have definitely had discussions
01:39:19 ◼ ► where we're going to big opening night Marvel movies for the kids and I didn't buy the tickets.
01:39:25 ◼ ► And I'm like, I show up and we sit down and I'm like, so I'm just curious who chose the back row?
01:39:30 ◼ ► I'm just curious. Like kids, you know, we can't hear anything. We're out of the sound pocket,
01:39:44 ◼ ► JS - You might plausibly want. It defaults to floor middle, which I guess is their guess as to the
01:39:59 ◼ ► And you I know that they are little postage size screens in front of my eyeballs. And I
01:40:06 ◼ ► don't understand how in most of these other apps, I can only make video look 15 feet diagonal,
01:40:16 ◼ ► 20 feet diagonal. It's all FOV, right? It's all I think obviously there's been you noticed it a
01:40:23 ◼ ► little bit. Some other reviews notice some fringing at the edges and some vignetting and things,
01:40:27 ◼ ► which is understandable given how broad the FOV is. But I think given the amount of resolution
01:40:34 ◼ ► that they have and how well that they have handled to the degree that they can, the ability to
01:40:40 ◼ ► display things edge to edge on those screens and like have them have it be viable. That's where
01:40:46 ◼ ► you get that extra because remember, on a stand on an HMD before this, but on a head mounted display
01:40:52 ◼ ► before the vision pro, including up to the most recent additions, you're using a very small patch
01:40:57 ◼ ► of the overall lens, because they could only the resolution is limited. And the foveation,
01:41:04 ◼ ► the edge to edge sharpness of it is tough, because you have to correct for all that aberration and
01:41:09 ◼ ► correct for all the curvature and all of that. And the processing power, this isn't there to do it.
01:41:27 ◼ ► lesser degree on the vision pro. Yeah, it's just incredible. But the catch is it is completely
01:41:35 ◼ ► isolated, right? And I don't even think I, you know, I didn't delve into this in my review,
01:41:40 ◼ ► but I know what everybody's thinking in the same way that everybody was thinking with the virtual
01:41:44 ◼ ► keyboard. Well, what about projecting a keyboard on the table? Everybody is thinking, Well, what if
01:41:49 ◼ ► me and my wife, or me and my spouse and my kids, we all get vision headsets, maybe three years down
01:41:56 ◼ ► the road when they're $1,000, or $1,500. And all three of us can have one on at the same time.
01:42:04 ◼ ► And we could use share play to watch the same movie at the same time. Maybe, you know, maybe,
01:42:11 ◼ ► maybe even your avatar is sitting next to you in the theater, whatever. Yeah, maybe. And yeah,
01:42:16 ◼ ► your persona is next to you. And you'll do that. That might be a thing. I mean, it's such an
01:42:26 ◼ ► okay, this is an amazing movie watching experience, but it's completely isolated. How do you make it
01:42:32 ◼ ► social? It will give everybody a headset, right? And surely Tim Cook would be in favor of this too,
01:42:46 ◼ ► we want to invest some R&D in a feature that would inspire families to buy a vision headset for
01:42:52 ◼ ► everybody in the family. I don't think that's a hard sell. Unlimited budget. I don't think you're
01:42:58 ◼ ► gonna have a hard sell with Tim on that. But is that actually sociable when you're sitting on,
01:43:05 ◼ ► in the real world, sitting on a couch next to your sweetheart? I don't think it is. I don't think it
01:43:12 ◼ ► is. I do think it is. Your son is off to college. If you want to watch a movie with him, you fire it
01:43:19 ◼ ► up. You both sit down, you watch Avatar together. He's a hundred miles away, 80 miles away. You're
01:43:25 ◼ ► in your living room, but you feel like you're there together. That's when it's social. Otherwise,
01:43:34 ◼ ► Right. And I do think that's insurmountable. I think it's part of human nature. Then if you are
01:43:41 ◼ ► on the couch with your sweetheart, or even a friend, even just a friend, a pal to watch
01:43:48 ◼ ► the game together, you want to be watching the same screen, not a simulation of the same screen
01:43:55 ◼ ► and two headsets. But again, you're right. You want to maximize the sociability of whatever it
01:44:00 ◼ ► is that's at your opportunity. And if the two of you are in the same room, clearly the most social
01:44:06 ◼ ► thing is to not have anything on your frigging face and just be together. But like you said,
01:44:12 ◼ ► perfect example, my son off in college in Boston, new season of Loki comes out or something like
01:44:18 ◼ ► that, that we would like to watch together. We could set up a shared time and do it. Then I could
01:44:24 ◼ ► see it being phenomenal. And that would be an improvement over what is available in the current
01:44:29 ◼ ► day. But I think that's, that's like the crux of it, right? You have to look, if you look at it
01:44:35 ◼ ► through the lens of like, why is this better than sitting on the couch next to somebody and
01:44:40 ◼ ► watching it? The very simple answer is it's not don't, don't, don't treat it as if it is right.
01:44:45 ◼ ► It's what does it do this different? What does it do this impossible? Now? Those are the things
01:44:50 ◼ ► it was built for. You don't, extremists can go into it going, I'm going to take this to the
01:44:57 ◼ ► extreme and I'm going to use it for everything. And I'm going to see, well, why is this better
01:45:00 ◼ ► than next? Well, the answer for a lot of those things is probably going to be, it's not, it's
01:45:04 ◼ ► not better than doing that. Yeah. And as much as I said, Oh my God, my 77 inch TV looks tiny.
01:45:11 ◼ ► And five minutes later, I forgot about that. You get used to anything. I've gotten immersed in
01:45:15 ◼ ► movies, watching on an iPad on an airplane before. I do remember John, we used to get immersed
01:45:20 ◼ ► watching on 24 inch tube TVs. It felt like the biggest cinematic experience we're watching.
01:45:27 ◼ ► Across the room. Yeah, exactly. You're watching Die Hard on that. You're just like, Oh my God,
01:45:32 ◼ ► what's next? And it's like this, this trinitron curved TV we're watching. So yeah, that's the
01:45:39 ◼ ► power of movies, I guess. One of my favorite stories from my childhood was my friend, Joey,
01:45:44 ◼ ► his dad was a lawyer. And I guess it was probably around 1982 or three or so. Empire Strikes Back
01:45:54 ◼ ► came out in 1980. And so this would have been like around our ninth or 10th birthday. And Joey's dad
01:46:02 ◼ ► was a lawyer, like a criminal lawyer, and he knew some people. And this is before good movies were
01:46:09 ◼ ► available to purchase on VHS. Okay. And Joey had a sleepover birthday party. And his dad said he had
01:46:16 ◼ ► a big surprise for us. And he had a totally illegal copy of the Empire Strikes Back on VHS. But
01:46:25 ◼ ► it was the full aspect ratio 2.35 to one, but it wasn't letterboxed. It was squished into a four to
01:46:37 ◼ ► three frame. Nice. Now where he got this, who would ever make this this way? I don't know.
01:46:44 ◼ ► And we didn't even know none of us had ever heard of the word letterboxing at the time.
01:46:49 ◼ ► Even though I was a nerd, obviously at the time, I'd never really thought about aspect ratios,
01:46:57 ◼ ► right? I'd just never really considered the fact that my TV had a different aspect ratio than movie
01:47:04 ◼ ► theaters and that Star Wars movies were different. It was so squished, but we were so excited because
01:47:11 ◼ ► it was an impossibility to watch a Star Wars movie at home. And the weirdest thing is as squished as
01:47:17 ◼ ► it was, 10 minutes in, yeah, we got used to it. And I just remember we spent like 10 minutes like,
01:47:24 ◼ ► "Where did you get this? Where did you get this?" He wouldn't tell us. He wouldn't explain it. He's
01:47:27 ◼ ► like, "Just enjoy some popcorn, have some soda. The pizza will be here in 10 minutes. I'll bring
01:47:31 ◼ ► it down." And we're all like, "Why is it so squished? Why is it squished? This looks weird.
01:47:36 ◼ ► What's going on?" And then 10 minutes in, we just watched it for the next two hours and we're
01:47:48 ◼ ► Right. So no, the best way to watch a movie is I think right now that you can get in your home is
01:47:55 ◼ ► to go pre-order a Vision Pro right now. There's no way to watch a movie better right now that you
01:48:02 ◼ ► could buy. But the best way to watch a movie with people you know is still going to be to watch it
01:48:13 ◼ ► In a shared experience. Yeah. Hey, did you... This is a question I had about the movies,
01:48:30 ◼ ► Yeah. Right. So Avatar specifically, I just, I love Jim Cameron. I love all of his movies.
01:48:37 ◼ ► I'm fine with the whole thing. However, the 3D on 3D, like the shot for 3D, which Jim Cameron
01:48:45 ◼ ► actually shoots for 3D, not just post processes or thinks about it in hindsight or does it
01:48:50 ◼ ► begrudgingly, he actually treats it as a first party medium. So the shot for 3D experience
01:48:58 ◼ ► I watched like 10 minutes of Avatar Way of Water, which I haven't seen yet, which because my,
01:49:06 ◼ ► a, my wife is not an Avatar fan and I am... It's not my favorite Jim Cameron movie, but I definitely
01:49:14 ◼ ► want to watch it, but I've literally been saving it for this device. But in the process of this
01:49:21 ◼ ► concentrated six day review period, I've never had, there was never a point where I had three
01:49:26 ◼ ► hours to watch the whole movie. Yeah. It's just a light lift. I knew I wanted to try it before I
01:49:31 ◼ ► wrote my review. So I just fired it up and found a scene like 45 minutes, just, I have no idea what
01:49:38 ◼ ► was going on in the scene, but I watched five or 10 minutes of it in there in the fake Disney,
01:49:45 ◼ ► Hollywood theater. And it's really good, I think. And I hate 3D theatrical movies. I hate them.
01:49:55 ◼ ► Hate them. The only, I forget the last one I watched. I think the last one I watched was Up,
01:50:05 ◼ ► but we went and we went to the 3D one because it was the only one we could get tickets for.
01:50:10 ◼ ► And I know, I mean, I don't, it's not like I can't watch them. And I remember coming out of it
01:50:14 ◼ ► with my wife and son. And I remember thinking like, I don't remember the second half of that
01:50:20 ◼ ► movie. And I've read about it since. There is like a cognitive thing where there's a certain
01:50:26 ◼ ► aspect of 3D movies where you're, you've got like sunglasses on in a movie theater to get
01:50:35 ◼ ► that effect, you know, and to separate the two channels. And it like, it doesn't give me a
01:50:39 ◼ ► headache, but it gives me like a pressure in my forehead. And like when I'm at Disney World and
01:50:47 ◼ ► we go on one of the attractions that has like a 10 minute 3D movie and there's a bunch of them.
01:50:54 ◼ ► Those don't bother me. It's like something about like getting a half an hour or 45 minutes in
01:51:01 ◼ ► that starts to like, I don't even know what just happened, but I just know that I didn't like it.
01:51:11 ◼ ► I thought that Avatar, again, I only watched about five to 10 minutes of it. And I don't even know
01:51:17 ◼ ► what the hell was going on or who these, who the alien, I don't even know what, but I just was
01:51:21 ◼ ► just looking at it. I kind of forgot that it was 3D five minutes in, right? It just, and again,
01:51:29 ◼ ► cause the other thing too, that you get with vision pro watching an Avatar is there being in the best
01:51:35 ◼ ► seat of the house is really important because being off center or off access in any way in a 3D
01:51:43 ◼ ► movie really throws, throws the whole experience off because you get all sorts of distortion and
01:51:49 ◼ ► stuff like that. So I think, I think it's, it's going to make me rethink whether I'd watch a movie
01:51:57 ◼ ► in 3D or not. I'll definitely watch. One of the first movies I watch on this thing is going to be
01:52:02 ◼ ► way of the water, but I think it solves all the problems. I think cause you have a perfect
01:52:06 ◼ ► perspective, perfect brightness and no lenticular shutter glasses. And that's in the end that like
01:52:14 ◼ ► whatever else in addition to dimming it's it's I think the other cognitive thing is the way that
01:52:21 ◼ ► like your two eyes are like a 12th of a second off from each other or something like that. I don't
01:52:26 ◼ ► know what the math is, but right. Because it's like a, it scans like left to right. Yeah. Right.
01:52:31 ◼ ► Something like that. And you don't get any of it with this. And so I feel like, Oh, total win.
01:52:36 ◼ ► I did go through Apple's immersive 3D things that are shot for 3D or not all of them yet,
01:52:42 ◼ ► but they have a couple they're spectacular. They're stunning. And they are way more like IMAX.
01:52:59 ◼ ► If it's not IMAX trademarked, it's, it's like the same sort of concepts. Right. And I'm almost
01:53:09 ◼ ► positive that Epcot's is IMAX. I am not totally positive if Disneyland is, but maybe it is.
01:53:22 ◼ ► I say S O A R I N like you're soaring through the air. It's like a big, huge spherical IMAX
01:53:31 ◼ ► movie screen. And then you sit in like a, what would you call it? Like a gondola, a swing,
01:53:36 ◼ ► a big bench, a big long bench. And it takes you up in the air and it's supposed to simulate like
01:53:42 ◼ ► you're flying through these fantastic parts of California when you're in the California one.
01:53:47 ◼ ► And then in the Florida one, now you're all over the world, like Paris and Africa and wherever else.
01:53:53 ◼ ► And you don't wear 3D glasses on Soren, but they've got a couple of Disney tricks where they play.
01:53:58 ◼ ► Yeah. Cause they pull you up into it, up into the curve. Right. So they hang you inside the curve
01:54:04 ◼ ► of it. It is, it is IMAX by the way, in both iterations. And they've updated it since 2001,
01:54:10 ◼ ► obviously. But one of the things is there's three rows of seats. There's left, the left bank of
01:54:15 ◼ ► seats, the middle bank and the right bank. And I've been on that ride in Florida. I have no
01:54:21 ◼ ► exaggeration, probably like 30 times, maybe more. I mean, it's one of my favorite attractions. I just
01:54:54 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want middle top. So there's no feet, no flip-flops hanging in your view.
01:54:58 ◼ ► But this, you know, the 3D immersions that Apple has are like that where you're not looking at a
01:55:07 ◼ ► rectangular movie frame. Like when you look at Avatar, you're still looking at a 16 by nine or
01:55:12 ◼ ► whatever his aspect ratio is a rectangular movie frame in a movie theater. And everything is in the
01:55:17 ◼ ► movie. Everything is in the frame. Whereas these immersive things like this dinosaur thing that
01:55:22 ◼ ► Apple has, not that there's two, there's, it's confusing because they've got two dinosaur things.
01:55:26 ◼ ► They've got the app where the dinosaur comes through the wall. And then they've got this
01:55:31 ◼ ► other thing that Jon Favreau directed where it's more like a fake documentary as though you could
01:55:39 ◼ ► go back 300 million years and shoot a bunch of dinosaurs. But that one, you can turn your head
01:55:46 ◼ ► 180 degrees. That's what brings Soren to mind where like you don't have to stare straight ahead and
01:55:51 ◼ ► look at a rectangle. You have like 180 degrees where you can like turn and look around and
01:55:57 ◼ ► you direct your gaze. You might miss some of the action of what these dinosaurs are doing in front
01:56:02 ◼ ► of you because you're looking over there on the side or something like that. Absolutely incredible.
01:56:08 ◼ ► And it just, it seems like you're in, I haven't been to the Vegas sphere yet, but it seems like
01:56:15 ◼ ► you're in something like that, like this giant, giant spherical screen projection thing. And it's
01:56:24 ◼ ► bigger than your entire house, way bigger than your entire house, this environment that you're
01:56:30 ◼ ► seemingly have a first person perspective in. And you can just turn your head around and see stuff.
01:56:36 ◼ ► And it seems impossible that there's that many pixels because you think you're because of the
01:56:42 ◼ ► foveated rendering, you think all of it, the whole 180 degrees spherical thing is all rendered at
01:56:49 ◼ ► this incredible retina resolution when in fact, of course it's not, it's all big fat blurry pixels,
01:57:00 ◼ ► it creates the illusion that it's all rendered at high resolution. Absolutely stunning. I really,
01:57:07 ◼ ► I know, I get the feeling from the reviews I've gone through that there's sort of a consensus
01:57:13 ◼ ► that, geez, this is way too expensive overall as a device. But I really do think that for
01:57:19 ◼ ► entertainment purposes alone, like I said, I spent $5,000 on a TV a couple of years ago. I mean,
01:57:24 ◼ ► if you've got the budget for something like that, $3,500 just for watching movies alone,
01:57:32 ◼ ► if you're going to watch movies by yourself is not ridiculous. Even if it didn't have any of the
01:57:37 ◼ ► productivity stuff, it's a credible product just for watching movies and these 3D things. It really
01:57:43 ◼ ► is. And if you remember in the early days of home theater, I was at that time selling home theater
01:57:56 ◼ ► accessible, not just for millionaires, everybody was sort of building surround sound and home
01:58:02 ◼ ► theaters. We sold a surprising amount of really high-end speakers and a surprising amount of
01:58:09 ◼ ► these systems that allowed you to put hundreds of DVDs in them and basically choose a movie.
01:58:15 ◼ ► And then the carousel of DVDs rotate around and it would pick the movie and play it for you
01:58:20 ◼ ► automatically. And it seemed like a nonsense product that nobody would buy, but we sold this
01:58:26 ◼ ► surprising amount of them because there are people out there that just want the absolute best home
01:58:32 ◼ ► theater experience they could possibly buy, they could possibly achieve at home. And so I think
01:58:38 ◼ ► that there is absolutely a market in and of itself just for if you fixate the working stuff and
01:58:44 ◼ ► everything else. There's a bunch of people out there that are just going to look at this as
01:58:49 ◼ ► the best possible way to watch a movie and be totally okay with that being the problem.
01:58:58 ◼ ► I really think that's the number one way to sell these things or to, like I concluded my review,
01:59:09 ◼ ► pretend like I don't know what this is and what it costs. But if you had showed this to me
01:59:17 ◼ ► two years ago and didn't tell me it was an Apple product, because telling me it's an Apple product
01:59:22 ◼ ► would give me some clue as to a maximum price ceiling. Just let me experience this and let me
01:59:28 ◼ ► think that maybe it's from Bang & Olufsen or something. I don't know. And then you told me
01:59:35 ◼ ► it costs $25,000. I wouldn't buy it for $25,000. But I might think, oh, that's what it costs. And
01:59:46 ◼ ► that you could convince me. And again, the fragility, the overall fragility of the Vision Pro
01:59:53 ◼ ► wouldn't make sense to equip in a theme park. But if it was the same visual and sound experience,
02:00:02 ◼ ► but in a sort of, oh, we can have 5000 people a day come in and take it on and off for 10 minutes
02:00:09 ◼ ► at a time. And you told me that Disney spent $50,000 on each one of them or something like that.
02:00:16 ◼ ► I'd be like, oh, wow, that's a lot of money. But I guess that's the scale it costs to get
02:00:19 ◼ ► in an effect that compelling, right? It's that compelling of an experience. And I'm not trying
02:00:26 ◼ ► to tell people that you should think you're saving $20,000 because it's only $4,000 to buy it. But it
02:00:35 ◼ ► is a credibly tens of thousand dollars visual experience, at least in terms of my lifetime.
02:00:44 ◼ ► And from the starting point of what I expect from theater, it's not good. I guess that's about it.
02:01:01 ◼ ► I think there is, those of us who had tried it, and then even those of us who had just been paying
02:01:07 ◼ ► close attention kind of assumed that it would be a product that showed real promise in some areas,
02:01:13 ◼ ► that showed a lot of opportunities to get a lot better before it's good in other areas.
02:01:18 ◼ ► I think that the sort of early adopters thing is always about the excuse. What is the excuse for me
02:01:25 ◼ ► to adopt this so early? And I think the average consumer, I'm not really sure there is a
02:01:30 ◼ ► compelling one. I think for anybody who considers themselves an early adopter, it seems so far,
02:01:47 ◼ ► I think I could be more productive. And I know Apple wants that to be the number one excuse.
02:01:53 ◼ ► I could be more productive with this thing. That's what they're, it's a computer, they're
02:01:57 ◼ ► selling it as a computer that you could do work with. The good news is so far from the reviews
02:02:03 ◼ ► and what people have assessed with it, they spend most of their time talking about other stuff.
02:02:20 ◼ ► crap that experience normally is. It is normally not something you talk about with a normal headset
02:02:27 ◼ ► because it is impossible to do. Anybody that says, "Oh, I work in it and all these early adopters,
02:02:33 ◼ ► I know them, I talk with them, they're lovely people." I've had just as much experience with
02:02:39 ◼ ► headsets as anybody. And I can tell you that it's not good. You cannot read well on these headsets.
02:02:45 ◼ ► You can read painfully. You can teach yourself to adopt your views to much larger text sizes
02:02:52 ◼ ► and very specific views that allow you to do something in the work vein, but they're not
02:02:58 ◼ ► pleasant. The Meta3 is excellent in the games context. And in the casual viewing, it's cool,
02:03:06 ◼ ► it's fun, it's affordable, it's clever enough, and it's got enough developer support. My kid plays
02:03:14 ◼ ► Roblox on it. They play a couple of the great VR games that are just really well done in it, like
02:03:20 ◼ ► Cosmo Nius High, Vacation Simulator, both built by the same developer. But there's some good things
02:03:24 ◼ ► on there. Very clear use cases for a sub $500 device. You cannot read books on it. You cannot
02:03:33 ◼ ► read a spreadsheet on it. It's terrible. And anybody that tells you that you can is just
02:03:38 ◼ ► talking out their butt. They're lying to you. It's not good. And it's painful even to do.
02:03:43 ◼ ► So the fact that I think most of the reviewers just mentioned in passing, "Oh, I read a bunch
02:03:47 ◼ ► of websites. Oh, I looked at this thing and that thing," and then go on to talk about other things,
02:03:51 ◼ ► that's a win because it means all that stuff is just no problem. Like it's not even, "Oh,
02:03:57 ◼ ► I spent a lot of time reading and here's what I thought." It's like, "No, it was good to read.
02:04:01 ◼ ► Okay, now let's talk about these other things." That in my mind is a win from the reviews,
02:04:05 ◼ ► from Apple's perspective, in that people have accepted that the baseline of like you can browse,
02:04:11 ◼ ► you can read a bunch of text, you could do all that stuff like you would on a normal computer,
02:04:15 ◼ ► they passed that bar. Now, of course, becomes the journey towards making it a true productivity
02:04:21 ◼ ► machine, but the base coding of stuff that has to be there on day one, it seems most of the
02:04:27 ◼ ► reviewer consensus is that those things are there. Yeah. I think that one of the reasons that the
02:04:32 ◼ ► Quest 3, which I bought recently and I've played with and I kind of need to go back to now because
02:04:38 ◼ ► I've spent the last six days in this and I'm probably going to think, "Oh, man, this is trash,"
02:04:42 ◼ ► when I was semi-impressed by it as of a couple of weeks ago. But I think that the reason it's
02:04:48 ◼ ► primarily a game-playing thing for most people, it seems to me like, you know, and I told a couple
02:04:53 ◼ ► of friends I had it and it seems like people I know who have it use it for playing games,
02:04:57 ◼ ► but games you can get away with a lower resolution because there's motion and that's the motion
02:05:03 ◼ ► that keeps you from kind of noticing the lower resolution of the screen. I mean, it sounds,
02:05:16 ◼ ► "Reading is a very good stress test," but it is, you know. And, you know, I was laughing when you
02:05:22 ◼ ► were talking about, "Oh, well, you can read on it, you know, but do you want to?" And it always makes
02:05:26 ◼ ► me laugh thinking of John Siracusa's story from decades ago when he worked at like an e-book
02:05:31 ◼ ► publisher for the Palm Pilot and that he used to read books on a Palm Pilot like 160 by 160
02:05:38 ◼ ► monochrome display. You know. I unfortunately did as well. I read it. We are in the same,
02:05:46 ◼ ► we have the same proportions. Reading an entire book on that Palm Pilot screen would be both a
02:05:53 ◼ ► stress test of your eyes and your patience and also, quite frankly, a stress test of like the
02:05:58 ◼ ► button, the physical button you're using to page. Like how many times you have to click that button
02:06:04 ◼ ► to go through a book, let alone books, plural. I always think, at least our Ikea in Philadelphia
02:06:11 ◼ ► used to have a robotic butt and they'd, you know, the, what was it? I even know the name,
02:06:17 ◼ ► because I actually used to own one, the Po-ang, sort of the poor man's Herman Miller chair. And
02:06:23 ◼ ► they had a robotic butt that would just stand up and sit down on the chair over and over again,
02:06:28 ◼ ► behind glass. Yeah. And the robot had a little led counter that told you that it was like 106,721,
02:06:37 ◼ ► 6,722 times that this robot had stood up and sat down on this chair. That's what I imagined the
02:06:44 ◼ ► button on those Palm Pilots you guys used to read books. So yeah, you can read on anything.
02:06:50 ◼ ► Really. I was one of the weirdos that had the fold out keyboard and the little stand and I would type
02:06:54 ◼ ► on it, like take notes. Oh yeah. I used to have that keyboard. Yeah. If I was in high school and
02:06:59 ◼ ► I had an Apple watch I'd read, I, and I could get away if I was allowed to have my watch and not my
02:07:03 ◼ ► phone, I would, I'd read books on my watch. I mean, my eyes were a lot better back then.
02:07:09 ◼ ► Yeah. That's also true. Right. These were lower resolution, but our eyes were higher resolution.
02:07:19 ◼ ► Wait a minute. I think we're just realizing. No, it is. I won a little tidbit. I heard from
02:07:28 ◼ ► a little birdie in the last week and it's not anybody. It's somebody who's left Apple in the
02:07:32 ◼ ► intervening years, but somebody said that one of the, they, they were privy to the original plans
02:07:38 ◼ ► for this in 2018 and it sort of kicked off. And I think that was the year Rockwell was on the first
02:07:45 ◼ ► time he was on my live show after WWDC and AR kit was new and they started laying the groundwork
02:07:52 ◼ ► for the developer stuff. But that when this project kicked off, they sort of put together
02:07:57 ◼ ► these specs and they were like in 2018, they were like dream specs. Well, this would be impossible,
02:08:03 ◼ ► but I think this is the minimum of what we need. And he said, it really is. It's a testimony to,
02:08:08 ◼ ► this is what my, this little birdie told me that it's a testimony to how well run and maybe how
02:08:16 ◼ ► much good luck this project had over the years, that what they're actually shipping two days from
02:08:22 ◼ ► now or three days from now is remarkably close to what they specked out as a fantasy device in 2018,
02:08:30 ◼ ► in terms of, especially in terms of display technology. Like they needed all these things
02:08:36 ◼ ► that they couldn't possibly build at the time and they thought, well, let's shoot for the,
02:08:40 ◼ ► but that's how you make an amazing product is you have to start where it's impossible and then
02:08:46 ◼ ► build to it. What else? I guess that's about it. I mean, the only other thing I can say, and I hope
02:08:53 ◼ ► my review, like I said, I broke it into the segments so that I could complain about the
02:09:01 ◼ ► current hardware. Too heavy, too big. And the eye tracking is not quite precise enough. It's sort of
02:09:11 ◼ ► like a lot of targets, especially like browsing the web, like I said, using youtube.com in
02:09:18 ◼ ► particular is hard because there's too many little things in underneath the video player that are too
02:09:23 ◼ ► close to each other. And the eye tracking is good, but it's like the equivalent of trying to use an
02:09:32 ◼ ► iPhone with your thumb instead of a finger, right? It's like, you know, it's maybe not as precise
02:09:39 ◼ ► because it's your thumb and it's a fatter target. And just like how the iPhone had that famous
02:09:47 ◼ ► 44 point sweet spot for the size of a touchable element that, you know, which is much, much bigger
02:09:55 ◼ ► than when you're using a mouse pointer, how small targets can be because the precision of a mouse
02:10:01 ◼ ► pointer is so high. The eye tracking is a little more like touch than it, or in fact, I'd say it's
02:10:07 ◼ ► a lot more like touch than it is a mouse pointer. But with touch, it's like you intuitively
02:10:15 ◼ ► understood from the first iPhone through today that your fingertip is in reality, a big fat
02:10:24 ◼ ► 44 point circle. And so you, even today with as many advances as the iPhone has made in 17 years,
02:10:31 ◼ ► you still kind of need the same physical size for touch targets on a phone because your fingers,
02:10:50 ◼ ► even more precise because my eye tracking is as accurate as my mouse pointing. It is pixel
02:10:59 ◼ ► perfect, right? I can look at a really tiny button on screen and I know that that's the button I mean,
02:11:05 ◼ ► and I want it to activate. And so the little things that go wrong is as I get more accustomed
02:11:11 ◼ ► to vision OS, I want to go through everything faster. And so it's like, I'm in Safari and I'll
02:11:16 ◼ ► hit the button to show all my tabs and I want to activate a tab. But if I'm looking too close to
02:11:22 ◼ ► the upper left corner, it closes the tab and then it's gone and there's no undo and it's shit.
02:11:27 ◼ ► So it's literally the worst tab I could close just closed because it was the one I wanted to activate.
02:11:34 ◼ ► Right. And it's not because the eye tracking is inaccurate. It's just not quite accurate
02:11:40 ◼ ► enough. And where I really hit those mistakes like that is when I'm feeling so comfortable,
02:11:46 ◼ ► I'm in the flow. Right. And it's, yeah. And I see that tab whipping from thing to thing. Yeah.
02:11:50 ◼ ► I'm like, ah, there's the tab that I could see from the thumbnail. That's the one I want. And I
02:12:06 ◼ ► So there's so much room to improve as future generations go on. But I hope I was fair at
02:12:12 ◼ ► sort of balancing the shit that's amazing and the yeah, this thing's got to be a lot lighter.
02:12:19 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. You got to go into these things making the fairs assessment you can because
02:12:34 ◼ ► than the man himself. Right. And Steve and that era of Apple was certainly not about coddling.
02:12:41 ◼ ► And I don't think it should be now. So you don't have to go, oh yeah, yeah, it's heavy,
02:12:44 ◼ ► but like it enables all these great things. No, look, it's, it's heavy. Weight is not subjective.
02:12:49 ◼ ► I mean, it is. It's subjective for everyone. Right. Everything is subjective, but weight is
02:12:53 ◼ ► weight. And the lighter something is, the less you pay attention to it as a physical object,
02:13:00 ◼ ► the more you could pay attention to the virtual interface. And that's the whole point of it. Right.
02:13:04 ◼ ► And it's the same reason that like iPhone size is still such a hot topic because it's like,
02:13:13 ◼ ► And I think those questions will always be bantered back and forth and people will want this or want
02:13:18 ◼ ► that. But I don't think anybody's ever going to tell you that they want a heavier headset. No,
02:13:24 ◼ ► like I wish this thing was heavier. So I think it's fair and should be called out because like
02:13:28 ◼ ► those things are, even though they may be insurmountable at the moment, cause they're like,
02:13:32 ◼ ► Hey, we fit the most technology we could possibly fit into this thing. I don't think that that's
02:13:37 ◼ ► something that you can argue anybody, whatever you don't want not to be lighter inside or outside
02:13:43 ◼ ► Apple. Right. Progress happens and it'll happen year after year steadily, but it's like just
02:13:48 ◼ ► going through serendipity wise, having celebrated this max 40th anniversary, just the week prior.
02:13:55 ◼ ► And I like when I was doing the upgrade podcast with a panel of people celebrating it and we had
02:14:01 ◼ ► to pick like our favorite Mac of all time or, and stuff like that. And looking at some of the
02:14:07 ◼ ► old power books and it's like, Oh, and somebody would post in the group, you know, here's this
02:14:12 ◼ ► power Mac G3 from 1998 or something like that. And it's like, Oh, that can't be right. It wasn't
02:14:18 ◼ ► 1.7 inches thick. What? And it's Oh no. Yeah, I guess they were 1.7 inches thick back then and
02:14:25 ◼ ► seven pounds. It was like, and I remember when they came out, we were like, look at how small
02:14:30 ◼ ► and thin the power books have gotten and they were six pounds. We'll get there eventually. And
02:14:36 ◼ ► it, I don't know. I I'm excited overall by I'll just leave it at that. I am terribly excited about
02:14:47 ◼ ► something with the basic interaction model. Hello there. Talk show listeners at your pal,
02:14:56 ◼ ► John here. Just wanted to let you know that our good friend Murphy, as in Murphy's law,
02:15:02 ◼ ► got us pretty good on this one. Something happened to Matthew's microphone towards the end of the
02:15:08 ◼ ► show and he needed to finish recording the rest of the show using his AirPods as his microphone,
02:15:15 ◼ ► which as you might guess, you're going to notice audio quality wise as the show completes.
02:15:22 ◼ ► We're sorry about that. We don't really know what happened, but it is what it is. And just figured
02:15:27 ◼ ► I'd break into the show here with a special bulletin just to let you know. So you're not
02:15:31 ◼ ► surprised. Thanks for listening. The talk show, the only podcast that blows somebody's microphone
02:15:39 ◼ ► battery. That's the advertising right there. I'm sorry. It's charging, but it looks like they gave
02:15:44 ◼ ► up the ghost on actually transmitting. So I'll finish off with my last AirPods gasp. Sorry.
02:15:50 ◼ ► Anyhow, what were we saying? You were, you were talking about the future. Yeah. Yeah. I was saying
02:15:56 ◼ ► I'm anxious to get my hands on it as well. I'm not in the first. French. I waited actually a
02:16:01 ◼ ► couple of days to order mine, so I'm not, I'm not getting my for a couple of weeks, but I I'm
02:16:05 ◼ ► excited to do some work in it to mess around in there. And I'm frankly excited for all the hacks
02:16:12 ◼ ► and things that will come along that people will mess with it. I think this is one of those things
02:16:16 ◼ ► where Apple will want to move at a certain speed so that they are cautious and that they roll things
02:16:22 ◼ ► out with care. And a lot of other people who have a lot of experience with head mounted displays and
02:16:28 ◼ ► with virtual environments already are going to want to play in this new playground and move a lot
02:16:32 ◼ ► faster than Apple. And so I'm anxious to see what a lot of people bring to the table, not just the
02:16:38 ◼ ► official third-party developer ecosystem, but also people just hacking on crazy projects and sending
02:16:43 ◼ ► me test flights and playing around. I want to mess with all that stuff. I'm really excited to see what
02:16:48 ◼ ► people come up with. Well, Matthew, thank you for joining me now before we go, instead of telling
02:16:53 ◼ ► people to go read your stuff at TechCrunch or wherever the hell it is used to work, you've got
02:16:58 ◼ ► it. You've got a new website, which I love. Oh, thanks. And I'm so mad that you're publishing so
02:17:06 ◼ ► regularly because I've had so much work to do over the last week. I'm like, stop, slow down. What do
02:17:13 ◼ ► you do? You didn't write this much when you were running an entire website. Yeah. It turns out that
02:17:20 ◼ ► managing 60 people takes time. What is your new website? It's called the Obsessor. Theobsessor.com
02:17:27 ◼ ► is the address. Feel free to go. It is free to sign up and there's plenty to read for free. I
02:17:32 ◼ ► do have a paid newsletter as well. They do want to make it sustainable long-term. I want to invest
02:17:36 ◼ ► some money into some special projects, video. I just put up a video for subscribers this past
02:17:42 ◼ ► weekend with one of my favorite family recipes and just a little bit of a video essay about it.
02:17:47 ◼ ► I want to do stuff like that. It covers all of the things that I love, cameras, watches,
02:17:55 ◼ ► beverages, and food, and fine craft items. Just things that are worth obsessing over. That's it.
02:18:02 ◼ ► I think there's a lot of things that just didn't fit into the bucket of, hey, I run a TechCrunch,
02:18:08 ◼ ► so I really should pay attention to X, Y, or Z things. But now I get to really go nerdy on
02:18:12 ◼ ► Imagineering topics and different things like that that I care about. That's awesome. It's fun. It's
02:18:17 ◼ ► fun building something from scratch and enjoying that. Mostly it's a nights and weekends endeavor,
02:18:22 ◼ ► which is great because it gives me a little bit of relaxation time to fool out because I have a
02:18:27 ◼ ► day job. But it's great. I find it relaxing. I'm lucky. Should we talk about the day job?
02:18:37 ◼ ► anybody knows me or has followed my online presence at all. They'll know I'm a sneaker head.
02:18:43 ◼ ► I like to collect clothing and shoes and all that stuff. Part of which I write about, obviously. But
02:18:48 ◼ ► I have bought and sold a lot, like a lot of sneakers, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
02:19:06 ◼ ► Somebody sent me a prototype of this app. It was a beta. I thought, "Oh, this is interesting. I
02:19:23 ◼ ► up at a parking lot with a Facebook marketplace hooligan who's going to take your device and run
02:19:28 ◼ ► and all that stuff. And the job is just to make it as simple as possible. I talked with the founder,
02:19:34 ◼ ► Bastian Niemann. He formerly founded Dospeaks. This is his new baby who wants to do this thing
02:19:41 ◼ ► and create a new way of selling and buying. I really thought it was cool. So I said, "Hey,
02:19:47 ◼ ► I think I like this. Let's talk." We talked, we vibed, and now we're building it. It's so
02:19:53 ◼ ► fun to build. I spent a lot of years covering building from the other side. It's been really
02:19:59 ◼ ► enjoyable getting on a team of 10 people that are just all aligned and just hammering things out.
02:20:05 ◼ ► And things don't work until they do. And then they do, and you see some traction. It's just
02:20:10 ◼ ► very exciting. I'm having fun. It sounds like it. It sounds like something that you would have told
02:20:15 ◼ ► me while we were driving to an Apple event, that you had a dream that you went to work at a startup.
02:20:24 ◼ ► It's ridiculously aligned. It's wild. It really is. It could not be more Matthew Pansarino.
02:20:30 ◼ ► Yeah, I was very fortunate. Look, it's good people. I like Bassey a lot. I like the people
02:20:37 ◼ ► that I work with a lot. But more importantly, I believe in the mission. I have seen firsthand
02:20:43 ◼ ► how ridiculous it is, how the taxes and fees and selling issues basically make it so that you just
02:20:51 ◼ ► say, eh, I don't think I want to, I don't want to bother. Right. Or, or you're stuck going,
02:20:57 ◼ ► I really need this cash. Like these days people get laid off. They were seeing so much of it
02:21:03 ◼ ► happen. They have devices laying around. They're like, I really wish this was cash tomorrow so
02:21:07 ◼ ► that I could pay bills or whatever. And like that kind of thing is, has been pretty impossible to do
02:21:12 ◼ ► because it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of logistics and hard work behind the scenes to make
02:21:17 ◼ ► it seamless for the user. And so we're not anywhere near where we want to be, but I think we're on the
02:21:23 ◼ ► way and I'm excited. It's been fun. Yeah. I know I don't sell sneakers, but my son's into the,
02:21:37 ◼ ► Yeah. It is. Yeah. Between bots shopping and all of that stuff, it gets crazy. And then the selling
02:21:44 ◼ ► side of it too. Like you grow out of certain things. Like you've got an old iPad and it's
02:21:48 ◼ ► been sitting in a drawer or you grow out of a pair of sneakers or you grow out of something that you,
02:21:53 ◼ ► that you were using and don't use so much anymore. And I think it's, I don't want to get too heady,
02:22:06 ◼ ► Young people are owning less and renting more. And as far as homes go, we all know there's a ton of
02:22:13 ◼ ► socioeconomic things that go along with that. It's not completely by choice, but it is part of their,
02:22:18 ◼ ► of the mentality that's changing because you and I are probably the last generation that is going to
02:22:25 ◼ ► hoard a bunch of stuff that is going to keep stuff around forever. I got looking at the slow, you can
02:22:29 ◼ ► listeners can't tell, but I've got like stuff. I've got collections of stuff in my house. And,
02:22:34 ◼ ► and my, my parents, I mean, I dread going through all the stuff that they have collected.
02:22:40 ◼ ► And I think that people are being more comfortable with letting things come in and out of their life.
02:22:52 ◼ ► I purchased this, or I brought this into my life. I had it for a period of time. I enjoyed it,