499: We Have All the Cushions


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 499,

00:00:13   for February 12th, 2024.

00:00:16   This show is brought to you by Factor, Delete Me and Nom Nom.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:23   Hi, Jason.

00:00:24   - Hi, Mike Hurley.

00:00:25   We're right on the precipice of 500 now.

00:00:26   It's amazing. - Yep.

00:00:27   - Amazing. - Yep.

00:00:28   - Amazing.

00:00:29   - It's gonna be incredible.

00:00:30   - It'll be a big episode next week.

00:00:31   Forget about this episode.

00:00:32   No, no, this episode will be great too.

00:00:33   - No, no, keep listening to this one.

00:00:34   Also a big episode today,

00:00:35   but it'll be another big episode.

00:00:37   In fact, we're just like big episode after big episode

00:00:40   this season, it feels like. - I know, we've gone.

00:00:42   There was a, it was real quiet there for a while

00:00:44   and then all of a sudden, bang, zoom.

00:00:46   Everything's happening. - Hit off the hit.

00:00:47   - Yep.

00:00:48   - I have a snow talk question for you.

00:00:50   It comes from me and I wanna know, Jason,

00:00:52   did you enjoy the Super Bowl?

00:00:54   - You know, the Super Bowl was extremely entertaining,

00:00:56   except, you know, neither team played very well, honestly.

00:01:00   Although I think part of that is that the other,

00:01:02   I think part of that is that the other team was very good.

00:01:06   I mean, this is, we have this tendency to focus on,

00:01:08   like, the offenses didn't do a lot

00:01:10   and therefore the teams were disappointing,

00:01:11   but I think the truth is that the defense

00:01:13   has played really well and they're both very good teams

00:01:16   and so they struggled, but they also made mistakes.

00:01:19   What I liked about the Super Bowl also was that in the end,

00:01:25   either team could have won by making one more play.

00:01:28   Literally, both teams, if they had lost,

00:01:30   would have had a litany of things

00:01:32   that if they had just done that one thing differently,

00:01:35   they would have won the game.

00:01:36   Unfortunately, it was a replay of the Super Bowl

00:01:39   four years ago and my beloved 49ers lost, but it's fine.

00:01:44   Patrick, I mean, again, Patrick Mahomes, they called him,

00:01:48   I think Tony Roble called him the Michael Jordan of football.

00:01:50   I mean, he is kind of that.

00:01:52   He's young, he's talented,

00:01:53   he's already won three Super Bowls.

00:01:55   Anyway, a little bit of a bummer

00:01:56   'cause my childhood team lost the Super Bowl,

00:01:58   but as I was telling our pal Lex Friedman today,

00:02:02   NFL football is probably my third, fourth favorite sport

00:02:07   and so that eases the pain a little bit.

00:02:09   - I assumed you supported the 49ers,

00:02:13   but you never talk about them,

00:02:15   so I wasn't sure if you did, actually.

00:02:17   - No, and I'm somewhat ambivalent about the NFL.

00:02:20   I used to be more of a 49ers fan.

00:02:23   There were, yeah, yeah, but I mean,

00:02:26   baseball obviously is number one

00:02:28   and then between soccer and college football,

00:02:33   the NFL is in there,

00:02:35   but it's probably third or fourth in my heart.

00:02:38   So that makes it a lot easier.

00:02:39   When I was younger, actually when I was younger,

00:02:41   it was great 'cause the 49ers won the Super Bowl five times.

00:02:44   That was awesome and they haven't won since.

00:02:47   But I'm older and I appreciated all those wins.

00:02:50   So it's a lot easier to get over that.

00:02:52   Once your team has won, especially in a formative age,

00:02:55   it's a lot easier to accept loss after that

00:02:57   because you've been there and you've seen it

00:02:59   and you've had that life experience.

00:03:00   And that's how I felt when the Giants won the World Series.

00:03:03   In 2010, they had been my lifelong team

00:03:06   and my favorite team and had never won.

00:03:09   And that was a magical moment.

00:03:11   And I would love them to do well going forward,

00:03:14   just I would love the 49ers to do the same,

00:03:16   but it's not the same once you've been on the mountain top.

00:03:19   Like I feel, I was thinking how unique yesterday was

00:03:23   in the sense that like there have been eight days in my life

00:03:26   where my favorite football team is playing in the Super Bowl

00:03:28   and that was one of them.

00:03:29   And then I thought, wait a second,

00:03:31   a very old Detroit Lions fan

00:03:34   and a very old Cleveland Browns fan

00:03:36   have never had that experience

00:03:38   'cause they've never been in the Super Bowl at all.

00:03:39   So I should, you know what, I got it pretty good.

00:03:42   And it was a tight, taut, stressful game.

00:03:48   And I made some, I heated up some bagel dogs,

00:03:53   like little hot dogs inside bagel wrappers

00:03:55   and we ate those.

00:03:56   So, you know, we had a good day.

00:03:59   - I watched the halftime show.

00:04:03   I think Usher was very fun, did a good job.

00:04:05   - Okay. - I enjoyed that.

00:04:06   - I'm gonna, upgrade listeners already know

00:04:08   that I am an old, but I'm just gonna put it out there.

00:04:10   I don't know who Usher is.

00:04:12   I don't know anything about Usher.

00:04:13   - I mean, Usher has been around for like 30 years, but.

00:04:16   - Yeah, no, I got the sense very clearly that I think

00:04:21   one of the things about having kids, especially,

00:04:23   is that you lose whole periods of time where you're so,

00:04:26   like, I can't tell you anything about Usher,

00:04:29   but I can tell you a lot about the Wiggles, okay?

00:04:31   So, but I'm gonna say this,

00:04:33   from a position of being a complete Usher,

00:04:36   like no knowledge guy, he's real good.

00:04:39   Like that was a great show. - He puts on a show, yeah.

00:04:41   - Incredibly talented, really great performance,

00:04:44   loved the many channelings of Michael Jackson

00:04:48   as a child of the 80s.

00:04:49   I was like, he had a guy, he had a glove on at one point.

00:04:52   There were guys dressed as Michael Jackson

00:04:54   in his dance group at various points.

00:04:57   The guest stars were really great.

00:04:58   Alicia Keys, our, all Vision Pro users know,

00:05:02   our close personal friend, Alicia Keys,

00:05:04   she came out and killed it.

00:05:06   So anyway, yeah, there's a great documentary

00:05:10   about the Wiggles on Prime Video, so check that out.

00:05:13   Michael Jackson was very much an influence for Usher.

00:05:16   Usher's first album was in, I think, '94

00:05:18   or something like that, so he's been around for a long time.

00:05:21   I was a big fan of 8701, which is one of my,

00:05:26   like was one of my favorite, I really liked it.

00:05:29   I thought it did a great job.

00:05:30   I really enjoyed the show. - Yeah.

00:05:32   - And also-- - The Appomusic halftime show,

00:05:34   of course. - Yeah, Appomusic halftime show

00:05:35   and I will also say, as just, you know,

00:05:37   as a person who loves love and fairy tales,

00:05:40   I'm happy that the Chiefs won,

00:05:41   'cause I just think it's great.

00:05:42   I just love the whole thing and I know people hate it

00:05:44   and I get it, but I love it.

00:05:45   I just love that Taylor was there

00:05:48   and like, it's just fun for me.

00:05:49   I just think it's-- - No complaints.

00:05:51   - Incredible, what a time to be alive.

00:05:53   - I have no hate in my heart for Patrick Mahomes

00:05:56   and for the Kelseys and Taylor Swift, obviously.

00:05:59   No, none at all.

00:06:00   I'm bummed out because the 49ers had many opportunities,

00:06:04   like the Chiefs did, to make a decisive move,

00:06:07   one thing different and would have won the game.

00:06:09   And in the end, actually, I mean, really,

00:06:13   in the end, neither of them did, sort of,

00:06:15   until the very, very end.

00:06:16   So it was one of those games.

00:06:18   So I just have to shrug and say, it is a great story.

00:06:22   I realized that everybody else in the world

00:06:24   was hoping to see Taylor Swift be happy

00:06:28   watching the Chiefs win and that's what happened.

00:06:30   - Yeah, I mean, I can imagine too,

00:06:33   as far as a Super Bowl goes, very exciting.

00:06:36   Feel like it to unfold in the very closing moments

00:06:39   of the game, like that is an exciting thing,

00:06:41   unless it's your team.

00:06:43   - Over time too, there's only been two overtimes

00:06:45   in Super Bowl history.

00:06:46   I mean, it came down, there was a moment

00:06:48   in the fourth quarter where they're like,

00:06:50   oh, this is a great one, it's coming down to the end.

00:06:52   And Lauren sitting next to me on the couch is like,

00:06:54   come on, it's not a great one,

00:06:57   but it is coming down to the end.

00:06:58   So it is dramatic in that way.

00:07:00   - It was an exciting one, maybe, for that.

00:07:02   - Exciting, messy game.

00:07:03   - It wasn't a...

00:07:06   - There were like fumbles and interceptions

00:07:09   and dropped punts and there was lots of mistakes.

00:07:11   - It's better than a domination though, right?

00:07:13   Like if you're watching the sporting event.

00:07:15   - For sure, for sure, for sure.

00:07:17   What you want if you're CBS and you're selling

00:07:19   lots of commercials especially,

00:07:20   is a close game to the end and bonus overtime time

00:07:25   for more commercials, like great.

00:07:28   Like you absolutely want that and it is drama.

00:07:32   It was very dramatic.

00:07:33   Anyway, did I enjoy it?

00:07:34   Sure, am I sad?

00:07:35   A little, but that's okay.

00:07:37   - A couple of items of follow-up.

00:07:40   Well, one is a follow-up section inside a follow-up,

00:07:42   which we'll get to in a second.

00:07:44   - Great.

00:07:45   - But last week we did, in Upgrade Plus,

00:07:49   we did an extra segment where we put on our Vision Pros

00:07:53   and we had a persona call and our video editor, Chip,

00:07:57   put it into the video version on YouTube.

00:08:00   So I'll put a link in the show notes

00:08:02   to our full video version of last week's episode.

00:08:05   If you're intrigued in seeing what it looks like

00:08:07   when me and Jason were talking to each other

00:08:09   with our personas in a picture in picture,

00:08:11   there's a way to do that.

00:08:12   - We actually have a video of just that segment too,

00:08:15   if people wanna see that.

00:08:16   There's a video of just that segment.

00:08:18   - I would quite like people to click the link

00:08:20   for the actual full YouTube public video though, you see?

00:08:23   - All right.

00:08:24   - So it increases the view count and feeds the algorithm,

00:08:28   you see, rather than on the unlisted video,

00:08:31   which won't help us out.

00:08:33   - Well, it's listed now (laughs)

00:08:34   with a better title,

00:08:35   because I think it'll be better for the algorithm,

00:08:37   but this is YouTube talk.

00:08:38   We don't need to talk about it.

00:08:39   - Well, whatever, you know, whichever way you do it,

00:08:41   I'm gonna, did you just click the link

00:08:43   and go watch the thing, you know, and that will be fine.

00:08:45   - Yeah, watch it.

00:08:45   Well, I mean, we did, Chip did an amazing job

00:08:47   'cause it is us in the Vision Pro headsets

00:08:50   and our personas talking for about eight minutes

00:08:52   so you can get the full experience

00:08:54   of Mike's mouth not opening and the whole thing.

00:08:57   - Cool, then that's gonna be in the show notes.

00:08:59   Go get it.

00:08:59   I don't know if you've done it yet, Jason,

00:09:01   but it's still unlisted, but the title's good.

00:09:04   I relisted it.

00:09:05   I don't know what it's, I'll re-undelist it

00:09:08   or whatever they do on the YouTubes.

00:09:10   - This is YouTube.

00:09:10   Everything takes 10 more clicks

00:09:13   than the two clicks it's supposed to take.

00:09:15   - I don't wanna give away too much

00:09:17   about conversations I have with our friend CGP Grey,

00:09:19   but I did have a YouTube conversation with CGP Grey

00:09:24   where I said, are there,

00:09:28   I'm gonna boil it down to its specifics.

00:09:29   I said, are there things we should be thinking about

00:09:33   strategically about our videos?

00:09:37   And he was like, yes, but don't listen to anybody's advice

00:09:41   'cause it's all wrong.

00:09:42   I was like, perfect.

00:09:44   - Yeah, that sounds about right.

00:09:46   I think so.

00:09:49   - Yeah.

00:09:50   - All right, DMA today time.

00:09:53   ♪ DMA today ♪

00:09:55   ♪ He talking about the DMA ♪

00:09:59   - Is this a song that I should know

00:10:02   or is that like an original composition?

00:10:03   - Only if you're an American who remembers the ads

00:10:06   for USA Today in the 80s on TV.

00:10:08   But yeah, anyway, DMA today, here we are.

00:10:10   - Jason created artwork.

00:10:11   So if you use a podcast app that shows chapter artwork,

00:10:15   you will now see DMA today artwork.

00:10:17   - Enjoy, DMA.

00:10:18   We made this up last week.

00:10:20   Now it's a segment.

00:10:21   - Yes, and so there's basically what,

00:10:23   there's a couple of items of follow-up

00:10:25   that I wanted to address that were related to this

00:10:28   and then also a couple more debate.

00:10:32   - I feel like we're having a slow debate with our audience.

00:10:37   - Yeah, sort of.

00:10:38   - This comes from Matt who says,

00:10:41   "In your disagreement with Scott's feedback

00:10:44   "on last week's episode about the burden

00:10:46   "of a 50 cent core technology fee places on developers,

00:10:50   "you said that free apps can just remain in the App Store

00:10:53   "under the current rules.

00:10:54   "That is true, but only if the apps are a type of app

00:10:57   "that is allowed in the App Store.

00:10:59   "Consider emulators explicitly legal by US law,

00:11:02   "but banned from the App Store."

00:11:04   And Rowe also wrote,

00:11:06   and I'll say lots of people wrote in the variation of this.

00:11:09   Rowe added, "In particular, open source applications

00:11:12   "that Apple doesn't want on the platform

00:11:14   "are effectively prohibited by the proposal."

00:11:16   - All right, so here's the problem with podcasts

00:11:21   is we're not gonna cover every issue every episode.

00:11:27   I have talked about emulators and App Store

00:11:30   rejection policies on it's gotta be at least a half dozen,

00:11:33   if not a dozen episodes of upgrade.

00:11:36   Not gonna mention it every time.

00:11:37   So you're right, yes, I can't mention every single issue,

00:11:41   but this is absolutely true.

00:11:42   One of the whole points of what's going on here,

00:11:46   and one of the reasons you'd might wanna be

00:11:48   in an external marketplace is that you're making a product

00:11:52   that Apple has decided they don't want on their platform.

00:11:56   And therefore, how do you get it out there?

00:11:59   I guess if you're using open source code

00:12:02   that does not allow you to charge money for it,

00:12:05   it's extremely difficult.

00:12:07   If the license allows you to do that,

00:12:09   then perhaps you could charge a dollar or something

00:12:13   and do it that way.

00:12:15   But yes, absolutely the case that there are apps that,

00:12:20   I thought I even said last week, open source apps.

00:12:25   But anyway, yes, I'll agree.

00:12:27   I don't understand the you haven't talked about it part

00:12:30   'cause God, we have talked about it so much, but okay.

00:12:33   Yes, I agree.

00:12:35   - I don't think anybody said we didn't talk about it,

00:12:36   but I guess it's implied.

00:12:38   Look, here's the thing.

00:12:39   I don't have a lot of sympathy for this argument

00:12:45   because they don't exist on the App Store currently, so.

00:12:48   Right?

00:12:50   - Well, the other context of last week's discussion

00:12:52   is we were talking about the challenge

00:12:54   for people who are in the App Store with their apps

00:12:56   and they're free and would they go to the marketplace,

00:12:59   which is not this scenario.

00:13:01   This is a different scenario where you are saying,

00:13:03   should I bring my app now inside Apple's official policy

00:13:08   here 'cause let's be clear, these apps already exist.

00:13:11   They just exist through like Alt Store

00:13:12   and they're completely outside of Apple's domain.

00:13:15   And this is like, they're bringing them into Apple's domain.

00:13:17   Would they do that?

00:13:18   But the conversation last week was mostly about people

00:13:20   who have free apps on the App Store,

00:13:21   would they enter into this system?

00:13:23   And that's, you know, it's a different argument.

00:13:26   - Right, this doesn't seem difficult to me, right?

00:13:28   Like, if you're an open source app,

00:13:31   go on the App Store as it is currently.

00:13:33   You're not gonna make any money,

00:13:34   so what's the problem?

00:13:35   No problem to you, right?

00:13:36   If you're an open source app or an emulator or whatever

00:13:41   and you're not accepted onto the App Store,

00:13:43   well, you're currently not on the App Store anyway,

00:13:45   so nothing's changed for you.

00:13:47   If you wanna be, well, you have to charge.

00:13:51   And, you know, I'm sure you can work it out, right?

00:13:54   Like, maybe the open source apps could come together

00:13:56   into some kind of store and like,

00:13:58   there's like a fee for all of these apps,

00:14:00   but it's a nonprofit organization.

00:14:03   You know what, there are ways around it.

00:14:05   Like, my point is like,

00:14:07   if an app currently doesn't exist on the App Store,

00:14:09   this hasn't changed that,

00:14:11   'cause they still don't exist before or after.

00:14:16   Like, in theory, there's now a path for these apps,

00:14:18   but there's a fee for it.

00:14:19   And I understand that might be inelegant,

00:14:24   it might be difficult, potentially impossible,

00:14:26   but it hasn't, it's like Schrodinger's App Store, right?

00:14:30   Like, they don't currently exist on the App Store,

00:14:32   so nothing's changed.

00:14:34   There is now a path in which they could,

00:14:37   but that doesn't, in my eyes, really affect anything?

00:14:42   I don't know.

00:14:43   I feel like all I'm doing is creating more fodder

00:14:45   for next week's DMA today.

00:14:46   - It's fine.

00:14:47   I just, I do think that there is a scenario

00:14:50   that is gonna be potentially an issue here,

00:14:53   where it's open source apps that are prohibited

00:14:56   by the license to charge,

00:15:00   who essentially can't be more than at a million.

00:15:03   Although, I wonder, is there a feature of a sideloading,

00:15:06   you know, sorry, an alternative app marketplace

00:15:09   of like, we'll warn you when you get near a million

00:15:12   and you can just-

00:15:13   - Cut it off.

00:15:14   - Turn it off at that point.

00:15:16   I know what you're saying about that,

00:15:17   but like, those apps don't exist right now,

00:15:20   so like, nothing's changed.

00:15:22   - We don't know.

00:15:23   - It hasn't changed.

00:15:24   - It hasn't changed.

00:15:25   This is like a new question.

00:15:27   One of the things that we felt was a positive

00:15:28   of having alternative app marketplaces or sideloading

00:15:31   was going to be that the idea that I can develop an app

00:15:35   and know that it will come out because Apple can't say no,

00:15:38   I can put it somewhere else, does run into this.

00:15:41   But you're right, it's theoretical,

00:15:43   because those apps have not been in the App Store,

00:15:45   and we were really talking about apps

00:15:46   that were in the App Store for free

00:15:48   and what those developers could choose to do.

00:15:50   I appreciate the feedback.

00:15:51   I don't disagree with it.

00:15:51   I'm just a little frustrated,

00:15:53   'cause I feel like we've spent tens of hours,

00:15:55   20s, you know, so many hours talking about these topics,

00:15:59   and it feels like listeners are coming in saying,

00:16:02   I can't believe you didn't mention this thing.

00:16:03   It's like, well, it's not what we were talking about.

00:16:05   - We cannot assume that people remember

00:16:08   everything we've spoken about.

00:16:09   Like, it is a private joke at this point,

00:16:13   but also a public one, of like,

00:16:15   I can't believe you didn't read my blog post,

00:16:17   and like, this started with Casey.

00:16:19   Like, we can't assume people remember.

00:16:22   - I appreciate it, but at the same time,

00:16:23   we can't talk about every single issue

00:16:26   in every single episode. - For sure, for sure.

00:16:27   - It's not possible, so I agree.

00:16:31   - But in the context of the DMA,

00:16:33   maybe we didn't fully cover this one thing,

00:16:37   because we got a lot of feedback about this specific thing.

00:16:40   But now we said it, and I'm sure you made it better,

00:16:42   and I made it worse again.

00:16:44   We'll find out next time on DMA Today,

00:16:45   but I have more. - It's the balance.

00:16:47   - I have more.

00:16:48   So I wanna read a quote from Mark Zuckerberg

00:16:50   about Apple's proposal.

00:16:51   I've edited this a little bit,

00:16:53   because it was a little,

00:16:55   it was a spoken and then transcribed by The Verge,

00:16:59   so I edited it a little bit for clarity.

00:17:02   Mark says, "I don't think that the Apple thing

00:17:05   "is going to have any difference for us.

00:17:07   "I would be very surprised if any developer chose

00:17:09   "to go into the alternative app store that they have.

00:17:13   "They made it so onerous, and I think it's so at odds

00:17:16   "with the intent of what the EU regulation was,

00:17:19   "that I think it's gonna be very difficult for anyone,

00:17:21   "including ourselves, to really seriously entertain

00:17:24   "what they're doing here."

00:17:26   - And there's somebody inside Apple who's like,

00:17:29   "Mission accomplished." (laughs)

00:17:31   - Well, yeah, but this is the thing.

00:17:32   It's like, from Apple's perspective,

00:17:34   this is exactly what they wanted,

00:17:36   but this might be the exact thing they don't want

00:17:39   when it comes to the approval from the European Union.

00:17:41   - Well, even if the EU and the European Commission say,

00:17:46   "Look, Apple is in compliance with the DMA,"

00:17:49   if nothing happens, it seems to me that it will be unlikely

00:17:54   that they will stop and say, "Well, we tried," right?

00:17:57   That's probably not what will happen.

00:17:59   Instead, what will happen is that they will take things

00:18:01   like Mark Zuckerberg's comments and say,

00:18:03   "Oh, we need to do more."

00:18:06   And we'd previously spoken about the idea that Apple,

00:18:11   and you would reference this,

00:18:12   and I thought it was really insightful,

00:18:14   that Apple's gonna do the best that they can

00:18:16   to highlight every possible risk that appears

00:18:19   from an alternative App Store app, right?

00:18:22   That like, any scam, any anything,

00:18:25   Apple's gonna like, shout about it.

00:18:27   And in the expectation of that,

00:18:30   I would like to look at it from the other side

00:18:32   based on some news that came out this week,

00:18:34   but I will start by reading from Apple's developer guidelines

00:18:37   regarding alternate App Stores.

00:18:39   Apple say, "If not properly managed,

00:18:41   alternative distribution poses increased privacy, safety,

00:18:44   and security risks for users and developers.

00:18:47   This includes risks from installing software

00:18:49   from unknown developers that are not subject

00:18:51   to the developer program requirements,

00:18:53   installing software that comprises system integrity

00:18:56   with malware or other malicious code,

00:18:58   distribution of pirated software,

00:19:00   exposure to elicit objectionable and harmful content

00:19:04   due to lower content and moderation standards

00:19:06   and increased risk of scams, fraud, and abuse.

00:19:10   This past week, an app called LastPass,

00:19:13   or LastPass, appeared on the App Store,

00:19:17   basically creating a spoof of the password app LastPass.

00:19:21   So this app didn't necessarily seem to be trying

00:19:25   to steal login information,

00:19:27   but they were trying to get you

00:19:28   to sign up for a subscription.

00:19:30   You think you're signing up for LastPass, but you're not.

00:19:32   This app has since been removed,

00:19:34   but this is an example of something

00:19:36   that never should have gotten through App Review.

00:19:38   And then I feel like with the DMA rules in our minds,

00:19:41   these things are also gonna happen,

00:19:43   where it's gonna be much easier to highlight areas

00:19:47   where App Review falls down,

00:19:49   and we've never expected them to be perfect,

00:19:51   but Apple is speaking in such high and mighty terms

00:19:54   about the risk of fraud from alternative App Stores.

00:19:58   Their own App Store has this problem,

00:20:00   and has always had this problem,

00:20:02   and will continue to have this problem.

00:20:03   And I just thought this was particularly interesting,

00:20:07   and probably got more attention because of the DMA,

00:20:11   but I think is a very good example of the kinds of things

00:20:14   that I think we're gonna be talking about a lot,

00:20:16   where there's gonna be a bunch of tit-for-tat

00:20:18   with this stuff. - For sure.

00:20:19   I feel like this is one of the things

00:20:22   that our sort of specific community talks about a lot.

00:20:25   That is the counterargument to Apple's claims

00:20:31   that they are the great protector of the platform,

00:20:35   is that we have endless examples of dangerous and bad apps

00:20:40   that just get approved,

00:20:42   while at the same time perfectly reasonable apps

00:20:44   get rejected for no apparent reason,

00:20:46   and sometimes require like whole media blitzes

00:20:50   in order to get somebody at Apple to pay attention

00:20:52   and approve it.

00:20:53   And it's very confusing why some stuff that is terrible

00:20:57   just slides on through,

00:20:58   and then other stuff that's perfectly fine

00:21:00   in following the rules gets rejected multiple times.

00:21:03   So this is the, yeah,

00:21:06   what are the developers paying for

00:21:08   if this is what they get?

00:21:09   - I don't think that it would necessarily,

00:21:11   I don't think it's fair to point at every possible scam

00:21:15   and say, "Ha ha."

00:21:16   But something like this specifically

00:21:18   should never have gone through, right?

00:21:20   - Nope, not in a million years.

00:21:21   - Because this is a spoof app of a massive company

00:21:25   with huge privacy implications, right?

00:21:27   That this could have been an app

00:21:29   to ask for your LastPass login, right?

00:21:32   Like, you know, and maybe trick people

00:21:35   into giving that information away.

00:21:37   But it didn't seem like it was doing that,

00:21:39   but it never should have gotten through App Review.

00:21:42   Like there should be,

00:21:42   and I'm sure there are types of applications

00:21:45   that if they look like they're supposed to be something else

00:21:48   they don't get through.

00:21:48   And I bet they mostly focus on that with copyright material.

00:21:52   I bet you couldn't do like, "Dibney Plus,"

00:21:54   you know what I mean?

00:21:55   Like, "Oh, sign up for 'Dibney Plus.'"

00:21:57   No, it's not gonna happen, is it?

00:21:59   With like, Mikey Moose or something.

00:22:01   It's not, that's not gonna happen.

00:22:04   But LastPass did.

00:22:06   - Nestflix, Nestflix. - Nestflix.

00:22:08   It's not gonna happen.

00:22:10   - Probably.

00:22:11   - Well, I don't know if they would care so much

00:22:13   about Netflix right now, but.

00:22:15   - Okay, but they're serious partners.

00:22:18   - Yeah.

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00:25:01   So we've got a lot of Vision Pro to talk about, obviously.

00:25:06   We've had more time with that.

00:25:07   - Don't we ever.

00:25:08   - I wanna start by talking about your review.

00:25:11   So you published a, how many word reviews?

00:25:14   - 8,000 word reviews.

00:25:17   - That's chunky.

00:25:18   Like that is a chunky review for you.

00:25:20   - It's the longest review I have written in quite a while.

00:25:22   I've been in the 5,000, 4,000 word camp for a while.

00:25:26   And I just, Stephen Hackett then did this shortly thereafter.

00:25:29   And it's that thing where you're writing and you're like,

00:25:30   "Oh, I'm 3,000 words in and there's no end in sight."

00:25:33   And it ended up at about 8,000 words, yeah.

00:25:35   - Which isn't a surprise to me because like, you know,

00:25:37   I've recorded many episodes of podcasts

00:25:40   about the Vision Pro now.

00:25:41   We did a, I was really happy with the episode of Cortex

00:25:43   that we did, which I'll put in the show notes too.

00:25:46   - Can't wait to listen.

00:25:47   - We're doing this and like, I still like,

00:25:49   I was using it today obviously,

00:25:51   and I'm still finding out things that I like

00:25:54   and dislike about it, right?

00:25:55   Like it's still happening.

00:25:56   Like I'm still forming opinions about this.

00:25:59   - Well, that's the other thing about doing this

00:26:03   is I end up saying to myself,

00:26:07   I need to finish, right?

00:26:12   Like I need to get it out there.

00:26:14   And I've got, I could have written 20,000 words, right?

00:26:18   But then the review wouldn't be out there for ages.

00:26:22   And so I decided I would, you know,

00:26:26   I would call it at some point and say,

00:26:29   "Okay, this is the first thing."

00:26:30   And then I know I can write about all sorts of aspects of it,

00:26:34   but at some point you just gotta

00:26:36   kind of get the first response out there

00:26:37   and then move on with the rest of your life,

00:26:39   which is what I was trying to do.

00:26:41   - I loved your framing.

00:26:42   So like the, which I recommend people go read this.

00:26:45   People should go read this.

00:26:46   Even if you just read the intro and outro,

00:26:48   you should read more, but like the framing of your review

00:26:52   being that like, you know,

00:26:53   you were there when computers started

00:26:55   and it was very similar to this.

00:26:57   Like I love this quote,

00:26:58   there was very little software available

00:27:01   and the suggestions your computer salesperson

00:27:04   would give to adults were impractical things

00:27:06   like keeping a recipe database or balancing your checkbook.

00:27:10   Like these are the kinds of things

00:27:11   that are happening when people were getting Macs

00:27:12   for the first time and stuff like that.

00:27:14   - And they, well, it's before that, it's even,

00:27:15   it's the Apple IIs and Commodore pets and TRS-80s

00:27:18   and the very, very, very early,

00:27:20   and it extended for a while,

00:27:21   but especially in that earliest of personal computer time,

00:27:25   it was clear these, you know,

00:27:26   it's like gotta get a computer,

00:27:28   we gotta get them in schools, get them for home.

00:27:30   If you can afford it, they were very expensive,

00:27:32   you know, five, $6,000 in today's dollars

00:27:36   for a personal computer and it didn't do anything.

00:27:39   Today's stuff, I mean, the Vision Pro does a lot more

00:27:41   than these things do, but it still gave me that feeling of,

00:27:44   yeah, it does a lot more, but what do you do with it?

00:27:47   Like, what is the practical application for it?

00:27:49   And it feels very much like it's a technology searching

00:27:53   for a practical application,

00:27:54   but very clearly cutting edge, futuristic,

00:27:58   we gotta get on board.

00:28:00   That's the vibe that this really reminded me of is that,

00:28:04   which is we don't know quite what it's for yet.

00:28:06   We're trying, we're throwing a bunch of things out there

00:28:08   that may be things that you could do to apply this

00:28:11   to your life, they're not that practical,

00:28:14   but still it's cutting edge and it's the future

00:28:17   and you should probably pay attention to it.

00:28:19   I get the same feeling from this as I do

00:28:21   from that era when I was a little kid.

00:28:23   - And you know, like, I think it's relative to, right?

00:28:27   'Cause we were talking about this some months,

00:28:29   so many months ago about the table stakes

00:28:31   for the Vision Pro, right?

00:28:32   Like the base stuff that a computer of any kind needs now,

00:28:37   they had to build, which they did,

00:28:39   but then we're building from the table stakes,

00:28:40   like, all right, it does all the stuff a computer should do,

00:28:43   but what do you use it for?

00:28:45   So the question is still the same,

00:28:46   even though the Vision Pro is more capable

00:28:49   than an Apple II was,

00:28:52   like what it can like just do straight out of the box.

00:28:55   - Right, obviously it's much more capable

00:28:57   and there's software for it,

00:28:59   which was one of the issues

00:29:00   with the early personal computers

00:29:01   is that there wasn't a lot of software available,

00:29:03   but the use case, searching for a use case

00:29:07   is the thing that is similar, absolutely.

00:29:09   - You say in your review,

00:29:11   this is the most impressive piece of hardware

00:29:14   I've ever seen.

00:29:16   - Of Apple hardware?

00:29:17   It is, I mean, if you take the light seal off

00:29:19   and you just kind of hold the thing,

00:29:21   like those displays are incredible and they're so tiny.

00:29:25   And then, and the thing,

00:29:26   I know we talk about how heavy it is and all,

00:29:27   but like the core unit of it is so small

00:29:31   and it's this glass aluminum thing.

00:29:33   I mean, they put a lot of work into it.

00:29:36   It's a very impressive, it's all packed in there.

00:29:38   Again, I feel like there's two things you can say.

00:29:41   You can be appreciative of what it is

00:29:44   and how it was built and how cutting edge it is.

00:29:46   And you don't have to believe it, right?

00:29:49   You don't have to believe in it to appreciate those things.

00:29:51   And so that's what I was trying to say is,

00:29:53   this is, let's stop and appreciate it for a minute.

00:29:58   And then we'll talk about whether it's implausible,

00:30:00   impractical, what's going on with it.

00:30:02   But clearly this is not Apple doing a half-hearted job.

00:30:06   This is full throated Apple trying its best

00:30:10   to make a cutting edge product.

00:30:12   And I love to see it, love to see that.

00:30:14   - One of the things I've been pretty,

00:30:16   I think I've actually been pretty surprised about is,

00:30:19   it has become pop culturefied in the past week quite quickly.

00:30:25   Like lots of celebrities are wearing them.

00:30:29   And producing social media content wearing them.

00:30:34   - Sure.

00:30:34   - But not as a joke, right?

00:30:37   Like I think it has become a little bit of a status object.

00:30:41   I think similar to how the Apple watch did at first,

00:30:44   even though people were statusifying with the gold one.

00:30:48   But I think it's the look of the hardware

00:30:51   has allowed for that, right?

00:30:53   It looks expensive as well as the fact that it is expensive.

00:30:59   And I think that leans itself into a certain type of person

00:31:02   online, the type of person who've been using it, right?

00:31:06   Like it seems to be popping up all over the place

00:31:10   for me at the moment anyway.

00:31:12   - Yeah.

00:31:13   - How did you write this review?

00:31:14   Did you write it using the Vision Pro?

00:31:16   - I wrote it almost entirely in the Vision Pro

00:31:19   using a magic keyboard.

00:31:22   I wrote part of it in one writer,

00:31:27   which is my iPad app of choice for writing

00:31:31   and is available as a compatible app.

00:31:33   - Okay.

00:31:34   - I wrote about the first half of it in that.

00:31:37   And then after I gave some feedback

00:31:40   to Simon, the developer of Runestone,

00:31:45   a text editor that is out for Vision Pro

00:31:50   about this challenge I was seeing

00:31:53   where whenever I tried to type, it made the window wide,

00:31:56   even though the text was narrow.

00:31:57   And he and I talked about that a little bit.

00:32:00   And then all of a sudden there was an update.

00:32:02   It wasn't even a test flight build.

00:32:03   There was just an update that fixed that issue.

00:32:06   And I switched over and then I used Runestone

00:32:10   to write the rest of it.

00:32:11   And Runestone doesn't have like all the features

00:32:13   that I want that one writer has, but it's good.

00:32:16   It's a good solid markdown text editor.

00:32:18   And it gave me the experience of writing,

00:32:22   not just writing on the Vision Pro,

00:32:24   but writing on the Vision Pro in an iPad app

00:32:27   and then in a Vision Pro native app

00:32:29   and the difference there, which was kind of interesting.

00:32:32   The iPad app, all the targets are smaller,

00:32:34   but at the same time, it was a familiar app.

00:32:38   It was a full featured familiar app.

00:32:41   It's set up to sync to Dropbox

00:32:43   and Runestone syncs with iCloud.

00:32:47   So I kept having to like copy my review back and forth.

00:32:50   This turned out to be good

00:32:51   because at the end of the process,

00:32:53   I was just kind of, I had one writer open

00:32:56   and I did something with my hands

00:32:58   and it interpreted it as a swipe all the way to the left

00:33:01   to delete the file.

00:33:03   Yeah, it was a dropback box.

00:33:08   I was able to undelete it

00:33:09   and I did have a copy somewhere else,

00:33:10   but I had that thought of like,

00:33:11   well, this isn't great, right?

00:33:12   And I think that's a good example of things

00:33:14   that iPad app developers might not anticipate

00:33:17   about how easy it might be to, for example,

00:33:19   just delete a file with a swipe gesture

00:33:22   because the swipe gesture is no longer quite as explicit.

00:33:24   It can be done really, really accidentally

00:33:27   and undo on a Vision Pro doesn't seem to exist

00:33:31   or at least is not that common.

00:33:33   Anyway, the actual act of writing was pretty good.

00:33:36   I started writing and I wrote a little bit in BB edit

00:33:39   in a Mac, but the truth is that the text clarity is greater.

00:33:43   I mean, it's fine in the Mac, but it is nicer.

00:33:47   The text is nicer in Vision Pro in an iPad app

00:33:50   and even nicer, honestly, in a Vision OS app.

00:33:54   I did a lot of it with,

00:33:55   I was sitting on my couch for a lot of it

00:33:57   with just the keyboard in my lap.

00:33:59   I had environments on for some of it.

00:34:03   I had environments not on for some of it.

00:34:05   I had this thing where,

00:34:07   especially when I like let my dog outside,

00:34:09   I would dial in the environment enough

00:34:10   so that when I was staring straight ahead,

00:34:12   I was seeing the environment.

00:34:14   But if I looked off to the right

00:34:15   to the doors in our living room

00:34:16   to see if the dog was out there or whatever,

00:34:19   I could see whether the dog was out there or whatever.

00:34:22   And that was good.

00:34:23   I wrote some of it at my dining room table

00:34:25   with just a magic keyboard

00:34:28   and a magic track pad in front of me,

00:34:29   no monitor, right, but using the Vision Pro.

00:34:32   And that worked fine as well.

00:34:35   So I can say authoritatively

00:34:38   that one can write an 8,000 word review in the Vision Pro.

00:34:42   That is absolutely true.

00:34:43   Would it be my choice to always do that

00:34:47   for everything I write?

00:34:49   I don't know.

00:34:50   Probably not, but maybe.

00:34:52   I do a lot of those sort of like,

00:34:54   I'm gonna go write in a different environment things.

00:34:56   Like I don't write as much at my desk as you would think.

00:35:01   I do a lot of, I'm gonna go write in the other room

00:35:04   now that I've got Studio B or write at the bar on an iPad

00:35:08   or in the summertime, right in the backyard.

00:35:10   And I do that, and I used to do it at cafes.

00:35:13   I do that to get out of my usual workspace

00:35:17   and like shift gears.

00:35:19   Well, now you could just go to a different environment

00:35:22   environment and sit at the same desk.

00:35:25   And maybe sit in a more comfortable place

00:35:27   because ergonomically there are more places

00:35:29   that I could sit and work and have a screen in front of me,

00:35:32   like on the couch,

00:35:34   when I could do that with a laptop in my lap.

00:35:36   But like, one of the reasons I'm sitting at the bar

00:35:38   is that I've got an iPad in a stand

00:35:41   and that is where I do that.

00:35:43   And that's fine,

00:35:44   but also this might be a little more flexible ergonomically.

00:35:47   So I don't know,

00:35:48   I'm open to the idea of using this for writing,

00:35:52   but I definitely did it for this review.

00:35:54   I felt that was important and I think it was.

00:35:57   - I wanted to touch on a couple of things

00:35:59   that you said there.

00:35:59   So like, obviously the Mac display,

00:36:03   the Mac virtual display is not as clear,

00:36:05   but it's clear, but it's just a little fuzzy.

00:36:07   It reminds me of like,

00:36:08   if you use a non-retina display with your Mac, right?

00:36:13   - Right. - Or like a non-retina

00:36:14   resolution display on your Mac is what it looks like.

00:36:16   Everything is perfectly readable.

00:36:17   It's just not crisp.

00:36:19   - No, I did the thing where I actually sized it

00:36:23   for the size of my studio display

00:36:25   and placed it right where my studio display was.

00:36:28   And that allowed me to say, oh, don't do this, right?

00:36:32   Like if you've got a studio display,

00:36:33   you should use the studio display.

00:36:35   - Or make it bigger. - 'Cause it's not

00:36:36   as good as that.

00:36:36   But that doesn't mean it's a failure, right?

00:36:38   It is a, yeah, it's a non-retina

00:36:39   or at least less than what we're accustomed to thing.

00:36:43   And we know people who have multiple monitors

00:36:45   and those aren't all retina displays, right?

00:36:47   Like, so you can do it and you can get up close

00:36:51   and see it pretty well,

00:36:54   but that's not really how you would work with it normally.

00:36:57   From a normal working distance, it's lower resolution.

00:37:00   It's perfectly usable, but yeah,

00:37:02   it's not that high resolution that we're used to.

00:37:05   This will be more useful, I think,

00:37:06   if they add multiple display support

00:37:10   for Mac mode at some point,

00:37:12   'cause then you could really emulate the,

00:37:14   I've got two slightly less than retina resolution monitors

00:37:18   in a side-by-side or an up and down configuration.

00:37:20   I know that people love that.

00:37:21   I don't do that, but I know people do love that.

00:37:24   That would be nice.

00:37:25   - I mean, so today I did all of my show prep

00:37:30   using my Vision Pro sitting in front of my studio display.

00:37:35   And I, 'cause I wanted to see what that would be like.

00:37:40   And it was, for me, just a truly fantastic experience.

00:37:44   So I had the Mac, which is where I was,

00:37:47   I had that as like the main screen in the middle.

00:37:49   I had Google Docs in there

00:37:50   because it's way better on the Mac

00:37:52   because Google, it's just not good in a web browser.

00:37:57   It will be better when they have an app,

00:37:59   which I'm confident they will at some point.

00:38:02   And I had like all these windows around me, right?

00:38:04   Like the Vision OS apps,

00:38:05   I felt like I had multiple monitors going on

00:38:08   'cause I could have all of my chat windows, Slack.

00:38:11   - Yeah, I had messages over on my right.

00:38:13   I had Slack over on my left.

00:38:15   Yeah, music up top.

00:38:16   - And I said the Mac in the middle,

00:38:18   and it was where I was doing a bunch of stuff.

00:38:20   I was reading your article in Safari Vision OS,

00:38:24   a Vision OS Safari, because it was nicer to read.

00:38:27   But then at one point the copy paste stopped working

00:38:30   between my two devices.

00:38:32   But I really enjoyed that today.

00:38:34   And I don't know what to do about that in a way,

00:38:37   because as soon as I took it off and looked at my display,

00:38:41   it's like, oh, that is nicer.

00:38:42   But now I feel kind of like hamstrung

00:38:47   by not having all of these other windows around me.

00:38:50   Like that can be huge.

00:38:51   And I love being in the environment

00:38:53   because it's nicer than looking at the white wall

00:38:55   behind my desk.

00:38:56   So it was, I've got to try and contend with this

00:39:01   a little bit 'cause, yeah,

00:39:02   and I could feel it when I was reading your review,

00:39:04   you're talking about, you make a bunch of references to,

00:39:08   and I found them enjoyable about the idea of like,

00:39:10   this is gonna restart the iPad versus Mac war, right?

00:39:15   - The iPad wars, yeah.

00:39:17   - Because it's like, oh, there's gonna be people

00:39:18   that are gonna be trying to like force some stuff

00:39:21   and like maybe jump through some hoops.

00:39:23   - Yeah, I mean, I didn't mention Federico by name,

00:39:27   but like, obviously I think it's gonna happen with him.

00:39:29   But in general, like remember we had the iPad wars

00:39:31   where it was like, oh, I can do work on an iPad.

00:39:33   I'm gonna force it, I'm gonna push this.

00:39:34   I'm gonna explore this, which I love that

00:39:36   because it's really, hey, here's a new computing platform.

00:39:39   Let's see what it can do.

00:39:40   Let's take it out for a spin.

00:39:41   Is it all gonna be something that everybody wants to do?

00:39:44   Well, no, but that's not the point.

00:39:45   The point is to try and see where the edges are

00:39:48   and what the issues are.

00:39:49   I've always appreciated the people who did that.

00:39:52   I sort of did that to a certain extent,

00:39:54   but never to the extent that many other people did.

00:39:57   I look at this and I think, oh, same thing's gonna happen.

00:39:59   And we're gonna get the same arguments again.

00:40:01   And I think what I said in the review is sarcastically,

00:40:06   oh boy, can't wait to bring back the iPad wars

00:40:10   as the Vision Pro Wars, but it's 'cause it is so iPad-esque

00:40:14   that people are absolutely gonna try that.

00:40:16   That said, I had that moment, Mike, where I thought,

00:40:19   I don't know if I mentioned this last week or not,

00:40:21   but I had that moment where I thought, huh,

00:40:24   would I have bought that studio display for Studio B now?

00:40:28   Or would I have been just like,

00:40:29   I can just put a laptop back there

00:40:31   and use the Vision Pro when I wanna be back there.

00:40:33   And I think maybe that would, I wouldn't have.

00:40:36   I think maybe I wouldn't have, even though,

00:40:38   'cause again, not that I would not buy a studio display,

00:40:41   I have one and I would not have one at all,

00:40:44   but I bought a second one for a second workspace

00:40:47   'cause I felt like I had no other decent options.

00:40:50   And now I keep thinking, one,

00:40:53   I could use that space much more as a temporary space

00:40:56   when I need to use a Mac to record a podcast.

00:40:58   Do I need a big monitor for that?

00:41:01   And do I even need to work there at all?

00:41:04   I could work kind of anywhere with a Vision Pro

00:41:06   and a MacBook Air.

00:41:07   So I don't know,

00:41:10   but it's certainly a different set of circumstances.

00:41:13   - It feels like the Mac display is quite polarizing

00:41:17   in how people find it to be useful or not.

00:41:21   I feel like the more content I consume of people

00:41:24   talking about this, the more I get some people say

00:41:27   that it's like, it is the best thing

00:41:29   and it absolutely makes the device

00:41:31   and then others were saying this is absolutely unusable.

00:41:34   And it's very interesting to me to hear the polarizing of it

00:41:38   but I'm not really sure what's causing it with people.

00:41:43   - I don't get it.

00:41:44   I do, we'll talk about this later,

00:41:46   but I do think that part of this

00:41:48   is actually ergonomic related

00:41:50   because some of the takes that I've heard about Mac mode,

00:41:53   I can't square it with reality.

00:41:55   And that's the problem.

00:41:56   Everybody's welcome to their own opinion,

00:41:58   but I hear descriptions of things like the Mac mode

00:42:03   as being like really substandard

00:42:07   and blurry and artifacty and all these things.

00:42:09   It's like, I have a vision pro and eyeballs

00:42:14   and I don't see it.

00:42:15   I do not see it,

00:42:17   which leads me to believe

00:42:18   that this is not necessarily an opinion,

00:42:21   but instead might have something to do with somebody

00:42:24   having a vision issue or a light seal issue

00:42:28   or something that is not,

00:42:31   'cause I do not see it.

00:42:32   I don't understand anybody who would say that it's unusable.

00:42:36   I think that there's a really good debate to be had about

00:42:38   since it is lower resolution, what is it good for?

00:42:42   But I think it is good if you are traveling with a laptop

00:42:46   and want a big screen.

00:42:47   And then not only is it a big screen,

00:42:49   but it's a big screen where some of the apps

00:42:51   you might have open there,

00:42:51   you can now open in Vision OS and keep your big screen

00:42:55   in the center for the very Mackie stuff you need.

00:42:58   I think it's kind of great.

00:43:01   I think it's one of the banner features of the product.

00:43:03   I'm not gonna go so far as to say

00:43:05   you should never buy a monitor again,

00:43:07   because having gone back and forth,

00:43:10   like retina monitor that's real,

00:43:12   it's 27 inches that's right in front of your face

00:43:14   is pretty nice.

00:43:16   I'm also a little bit baffled.

00:43:18   And again, I don't know whether this counts

00:43:19   as ergonomics or not,

00:43:20   but I've also heard some people who are go,

00:43:22   well, yeah, the problem with the Vision OS

00:43:25   is the field of view.

00:43:25   And so like you have to turn your head to see stuff.

00:43:30   And I think don't people, I mean, if you have two monitors,

00:43:34   you have to turn your head then.

00:43:36   You can't, are people staring forward

00:43:38   and then using their eyes and going side to side

00:43:41   and keeping their head locked?

00:43:42   I mean, you in the human real world,

00:43:44   you also move your head around in order to look at windows

00:43:47   if you've got a very large display.

00:43:49   It's one of the reasons I don't have a very large display

00:43:52   is that it sometimes seems like it's just way over there,

00:43:55   really far away.

00:43:56   And one of the nice things about Vision OS

00:43:57   is I can arbitrarily move those windows around

00:44:00   to anywhere I want so that I can look at them

00:44:03   instead of having a monitor that is fixed

00:44:06   and on a stand or something.

00:44:08   So I don't know, I am on the pro Mac virtual display side,

00:44:13   not like a hundred percent over there,

00:44:15   but I admit to being baffled

00:44:17   by some of the negativity about it.

00:44:19   I think there's a debate to be had

00:44:20   about when it's good to be used and when it's not,

00:44:23   but it's pretty solid in my experience.

00:44:25   I was impressed with it.

00:44:27   - I think the variance of opinions

00:44:31   on all things Vision Pro related is fascinating to me.

00:44:36   I feel like there is a lot of conversation

00:44:40   about things people feel they do and don't do.

00:44:43   Like I've heard a bunch of people now

00:44:45   talk about doing things on a Mac

00:44:49   when they're not looking at them.

00:44:52   And I don't think that's real.

00:44:55   Or maybe this is so different to me.

00:44:59   Well, I've heard this multiple places

00:45:00   on multiple podcasts.

00:45:02   John Siracusa was talking about it.

00:45:03   I've heard lots of people talk about this now

00:45:05   of like, oh, I'm always doing things on my Mac

00:45:08   without looking at them.

00:45:10   And I'm just not sure that that,

00:45:12   I don't understand how that's possible.

00:45:15   So like, I think that more than anything

00:45:18   with the Vision Pro and Vision OS,

00:45:22   I think there are way more divides

00:45:24   in the your mileage may vary

00:45:26   than any products they've made before.

00:45:28   'Cause I think that we're bumping up against like

00:45:31   things people do, things people think they do

00:45:35   and things people can't think they do.

00:45:36   - Invisible, I don't even wanna say invisible ergonomics,

00:45:41   invisible ways of working with computers

00:45:44   that we all took,

00:45:45   we're all our own individual quirky people.

00:45:50   But I think part of being a person is being like,

00:45:55   I just do this thing.

00:45:56   We all do this, right?

00:45:57   We all do this, right?

00:45:59   And then you get a moment like this where you're like,

00:46:01   oh no, they do what?

00:46:04   And then there's that second layer, which is,

00:46:06   I don't believe that they actually do

00:46:08   what they say they do.

00:46:10   And there's no way to, unless you get a camera on them,

00:46:13   you have to take their word for it.

00:46:15   And I agree, I've had some moments where I'm like,

00:46:17   oh yeah, I just moved my pointing device

00:46:21   and without looking, I do a thing with a window

00:46:23   and I'm like, what?

00:46:25   I don't understand that, but okay.

00:46:27   Like, all right, I guess that's your thing.

00:46:30   I also was a little baffled by some of the criticism

00:46:32   that I've heard about selecting windows in Vision OS.

00:46:37   Now, the criticism that multiple windows

00:46:39   in front of one another on the Z axis is bad, I agree with.

00:46:43   It's if you get a window trap behind another window

00:46:45   and you're like, oh my God, and you can't toggle,

00:46:47   you can't command tab, you can't command tilde,

00:46:50   you've got to like take your window

00:46:51   and move it out of the way

00:46:52   and then get that other window and move it away

00:46:53   and then move your other window back.

00:46:54   And I hate it, absolutely the case.

00:46:56   However, I had great success in,

00:46:59   if I have a window sticking out,

00:47:01   of another window behind it,

00:47:04   being able to look at the back window and tap

00:47:06   and then it comes forward.

00:47:07   I didn't have any trouble with that.

00:47:09   - I have 100% done this constantly.

00:47:10   Like it to me feels just like the Mac, right?

00:47:14   That like, if there's a window in front of the other window,

00:47:16   I just click the other window and it comes forward.

00:47:18   And I've done this, the windows on top of each other,

00:47:20   you can see the corner of the other one,

00:47:22   you tap it and you can bring it forward.

00:47:24   - Yeah, if it's a little, I mean, the difference is this,

00:47:26   is the precision, right?

00:47:27   Like if it's really close, it's not great.

00:47:30   And I'm actually a little surprised

00:47:32   that they aren't doing something with Vision OS

00:47:33   that they do on the iPad now,

00:47:36   where if a window is entirely behind another window,

00:47:40   they slide it a little bit.

00:47:41   So it's poking out enough for you to be able to select it,

00:47:44   which is a great user interface thing.

00:47:46   - I think I kind of like that it doesn't do that.

00:47:48   - That it just leaves it there.

00:47:50   I mean, maybe it would be an option.

00:47:51   - I just wanna be in full control

00:47:53   of the placement of all my windows.

00:47:55   That's one of the things I love about Vision OS.

00:47:57   - I get that.

00:47:58   My only hesitation is sometimes due to nothing you want,

00:48:04   a window is completely behind another window

00:48:07   and probably I didn't wanna put it there and it's lost.

00:48:13   - In that scenario, what is the problem?

00:48:15   - A window that I want to grab is invisible

00:48:21   because it's hidden behind another window.

00:48:23   And for me to get it, I need to move a window

00:48:26   and then move another window

00:48:28   and maybe move another window back.

00:48:29   - You can also launch it again

00:48:31   and it just brings it to the front.

00:48:33   - Hmm, I mean, yeah.

00:48:35   - And I'm not saying it's ideal,

00:48:36   but I'm saying it's a thing you can do.

00:48:38   You can ask your assistant

00:48:40   or you can bring up the thing and just launch it again.

00:48:43   - Have you had the minority report thing?

00:48:45   I've had a few moments where I really felt

00:48:47   like I was in minority report,

00:48:48   where I have had a window

00:48:51   and I need to bring it into my vision more,

00:48:53   it's off to the side.

00:48:54   And I literally look at it and I go flip

00:48:56   and now it's close to me and I go,

00:48:58   (mumbles)

00:48:58   and I do something and then I go, okay, now be gone.

00:49:00   And I grab it again and I go flip

00:49:02   and I put it back out to the left.

00:49:03   I'm like, oh, that's the stuff I use.

00:49:06   Window management.

00:49:07   - Right, like music, I mostly just leave the mini player,

00:49:10   but if I wanna do something more,

00:49:12   I'll grab the mini player, bring it down,

00:49:13   open it up, do what I need, put it back.

00:49:15   Like I love spatial computing.

00:49:19   Like I love this idea of I'm sitting on my desk

00:49:23   and I have all of these windows around me.

00:49:26   I do kind of like the fact that they make the cone,

00:49:31   but I would like to be able to more easily rotate them

00:49:34   on their X axis, right?

00:49:36   - Oh, interesting.

00:49:37   Just slide them all around.

00:49:39   This gets us something that I think is on my top

00:49:42   on my wishlist of Vision OS 2, which is just,

00:49:44   I feel like there needs to be more window management

00:49:46   scaffolding, it's like, I understand it's a 1.0.

00:49:49   - Yes.

00:49:49   - And I say that in the article, it's like, I get it,

00:49:51   it's a 1.0, but clearly one of the places,

00:49:54   window management scaffolding, right?

00:49:56   Like it just doesn't exist really on Vision OS

00:49:58   because it doesn't really exist on iPad OS

00:50:00   and iOS with the exception of stage manager,

00:50:03   which is, this is not that, but the Mac has it.

00:50:06   And I kept finding myself rotating the windows around you,

00:50:10   like you're spinning a carousel is a great idea.

00:50:13   I thought about like Expose, where they all kind of show up

00:50:16   or being able to toggle between them in some way,

00:50:18   'cause you're right, there are workarounds,

00:50:20   but like I kept thinking or spaces that save,

00:50:23   the idea that I'm like, save this collection,

00:50:25   but now I want it to go away and do something different,

00:50:28   but then come back to it later.

00:50:30   And like, I'm sure they'll get there,

00:50:31   but like those are all the things that struck me,

00:50:33   it's like, this is good, but it's so 1.0,

00:50:35   where it's like, nope, fend for yourself right now,

00:50:37   that's what you have to do.

00:50:38   - For me, the most important of all of them,

00:50:41   like I understand the idea of like having an Expose,

00:50:44   the most important for me is there needs to be

00:50:47   some kind of memory of my window placement with a restart.

00:50:52   - Yes, for sure.

00:50:54   - Because this thing, the standby battery is bad,

00:50:58   like it's bad, if you do not have it plugged in,

00:51:01   it will be dead tomorrow,

00:51:02   like I've experienced that multiple times.

00:51:05   And so then all of my window management

00:51:07   from the previous day is blown away.

00:51:09   And like what I ideally want is it to work like a Mac

00:51:14   that doesn't use Stage Manager,

00:51:16   'cause Stage Manager by the way, every time you reset,

00:51:18   it just blasts all your stages into infinity,

00:51:20   you have to reset them all up again.

00:51:22   But Macs without Stage Manager,

00:51:24   I can't believe that that happens by the way,

00:51:26   considering this feature exists,

00:51:27   if you don't use Stage Manager,

00:51:28   your Mac remembers where your window placement is.

00:51:31   But that's what I want VisionOS to do,

00:51:34   that when I restart, it does that.

00:51:36   Otherwise, give me some kind of shortcut placement

00:51:40   or something, that I can say open them and put them here

00:51:43   and put them there or whatever.

00:51:45   I made a shortcut by the way, this is hilarious,

00:51:47   like I just wanna see what happens,

00:51:49   'cause you can make shortcuts to open apps, right?

00:51:52   - Yeah.

00:51:53   - I made a simple shortcut that opened three apps,

00:51:54   'cause I thought what I could do is I could run a shortcut,

00:51:57   it opens my five apps and I just move them, right?

00:52:00   So it's like less buttons.

00:52:02   - Sure. - So it had three actions,

00:52:04   it was open Safari, open Todoist, open Notes.

00:52:07   What happened was it opened Safari, then it opened Notes,

00:52:11   but Safari was gone.

00:52:13   So like it was just opening one app at a time,

00:52:16   but like resetting everything, it was very weird.

00:52:20   If anybody's had better luck with shortcuts for this than me,

00:52:24   let me know, I don't know what happened.

00:52:26   But it was like, it just removed all of like the other app,

00:52:30   it was very peculiar.

00:52:31   But they need to have some kind of,

00:52:35   I think that's the start,

00:52:36   and then like window management in general

00:52:38   needs to be better.

00:52:39   Have you come across the force quit yet?

00:52:42   - Yeah, oh yeah.

00:52:43   - What a wild thing that that is there.

00:52:45   I don't remember how I got it,

00:52:48   I think if you press and hold a button,

00:52:50   I think it might, I don't know which it is,

00:52:52   you get a little force quit menu,

00:52:54   which is of all of the things to have,

00:52:58   that is hilarious to me, that force quit is there, right?

00:53:03   Like iPad OS doesn't have force quit.

00:53:08   You have multitasking where you can swipe them away,

00:53:12   but it is very interesting to me that like,

00:53:14   they chose to have a force quit menu,

00:53:17   buried within Vision OS is kind of incredible really.

00:53:22   - Yeah, it's a Mac like kind of thing,

00:53:24   yeah, you press and hold both buttons down

00:53:26   and the force quit comes up.

00:53:27   - I love it, I think it's hilarious.

00:53:29   - Yeah, get rid of that.

00:53:30   - So going back to your review,

00:53:33   were there any apps for you,

00:53:35   I would say actually during the review process

00:53:37   that were missing, like did you have any issues with,

00:53:41   like there was an app that you needed or wanted

00:53:43   for the writing of it?

00:53:45   - I think Discord was the one that I actually check in

00:53:48   on regularly that really I had to use the Mac to use.

00:53:51   I mean, I guess I could log in in Safari,

00:53:53   but I did not wanna do that.

00:53:55   - It's in compatibility mode though.

00:53:57   - Hmm, is it?

00:53:58   - Yes.

00:53:59   - I didn't see it there when I was working on it.

00:54:00   - I have it, yeah, I have it.

00:54:01   - You have it?

00:54:01   Okay, all right.

00:54:02   No, I mean, the truth is it mostly,

00:54:05   most of the apps that I needed were there,

00:54:07   that I use are there.

00:54:08   And again, iPad compatibility mode was helpful.

00:54:12   So speaking of iPad compatibility mode,

00:54:14   I'll just say it here, 'cause it's in the review.

00:54:17   I feel like the iPad apps are maybe scaled

00:54:22   a little too small, maybe.

00:54:24   - Yes.

00:54:25   - But I feel like the VisionOS apps are too big.

00:54:28   I feel like they're not quite dense enough.

00:54:33   And I know this is a real intangible thing

00:54:35   and I get why they're so big,

00:54:36   but I have a moment where sometimes I'm working

00:54:39   with both iPad apps and VisionOS apps.

00:54:42   And the iPad apps are like, here's all this content

00:54:46   in a little tiny box.

00:54:48   And the VisionOS apps are,

00:54:49   here's a little bit of content in an enormous box.

00:54:52   And I think, and this, it's related

00:54:55   to other window management issues that we should,

00:54:58   or app window management topics that we should talk about.

00:55:02   Like, I wanna minimize things, right?

00:55:08   So many of these VisionOS apps are so huge

00:55:11   that I can't keep them open all the time,

00:55:13   but I don't really wanna close them.

00:55:15   And I don't have a thing to do.

00:55:17   And like mini player, apps with mini players are great.

00:55:20   Like music, and I was using Long Play,

00:55:22   which has a mini player, so great.

00:55:24   And I had that moment where I'm like,

00:55:25   oh, I've got Fantastic Cal open.

00:55:27   It's great.

00:55:28   It's enormous.

00:55:29   - I can't believe there isn't a small version

00:55:31   of Fantastic Cal.

00:55:33   - I've already complained to them about the fact

00:55:34   that I want to reduce it down.

00:55:37   I wanna be able to reduce it down to the sidebar.

00:55:39   - Yeah.

00:55:40   - Right?

00:55:40   But like, what I really want is not just for them

00:55:43   to invent a mini player.

00:55:44   I want Apple to say,

00:55:46   here is a way you can have your app minimize.

00:55:51   And if you wanna show something that is widget-like,

00:55:53   you can do that.

00:55:54   And otherwise we'll show like an icon.

00:55:57   And then when you tap on it, it springs back out.

00:56:01   And that's just not there.

00:56:02   Again, it's 1.0, I get it.

00:56:03   But like, I kept having those moments

00:56:06   because these VisionOS apps are beautiful,

00:56:09   but they are huge.

00:56:11   And the iPad apps are more compact.

00:56:14   And I'm not saying that the iPad apps are the right size.

00:56:18   I'm saying that I appreciated their compactness

00:56:21   when compared to VisionOS apps,

00:56:23   which to me seem to be huge.

00:56:25   And one way you could fix that

00:56:27   is to scale everything down a little bit.

00:56:30   Another way that would help

00:56:31   would be to have a little more of an affordance

00:56:33   to pop them into mini player mode quickly

00:56:37   when you don't need them at that moment.

00:56:39   And then when you tap on them, they spring back out.

00:56:41   And that is another window management thing

00:56:43   that needs to happen down the road.

00:56:46   - So I'll give you a couple of points in there.

00:56:49   For Calendar, I've been using an app

00:56:51   that I found on Mac stories called Day Ahead,

00:56:54   which is wonderful.

00:56:55   There's a beautiful little app

00:56:56   for like just having there and visualizing a day.

00:57:00   Yeah, I think the idea of having some kind of,

00:57:03   if it wasn't widgets, like maybe it could be widget,

00:57:05   but maybe it's also just like small apps, right,

00:57:08   that can expand would be great.

00:57:10   And VisionOS does feel like this really weird mix

00:57:15   of Mac ideas and iPad ideas together, right?

00:57:18   Where it's like, you can have the windows wherever you want,

00:57:21   but you can't minimize them.

00:57:22   You just close them like on an iPad, right?

00:57:25   Because they'll be ready for you when you come back.

00:57:27   But it's like, yeah, but.

00:57:29   - We thought the iPad was already a weird mix

00:57:31   of iPhone and Mac.

00:57:33   VisionOS is like, wait a second.

00:57:36   It is even weirder 'cause it is even more like the Mac.

00:57:39   - Yes, it's like hold my beer.

00:57:40   - But without the underlying 40 years

00:57:43   of Mac window management rules.

00:57:44   So it's sort of like, close it maybe, I guess.

00:57:47   'Cause they just, and again, I get they needed to ship this.

00:57:50   I get that it's 1.0, but this is one of those areas

00:57:52   where it's like, oh boy, you got a lot of work to do here.

00:57:54   You got a lot of work to do here

00:57:56   because some of this stuff is really great.

00:57:59   And then you're like, okay,

00:58:00   I don't need to see the Calendar right now,

00:58:02   but I'm gonna want it again in a little bit.

00:58:04   And then they're like, well, you just got to close it, man.

00:58:06   That's all you can do.

00:58:07   That's sorry, that's it.

00:58:09   That's all you can do.

00:58:10   - The iPad compatible apps though for me

00:58:12   is where I have the majority of my eye tracking failure.

00:58:17   - Yes, I agree.

00:58:18   - I think it's because stuff is so small and close together.

00:58:21   And so I think there is a middle ground though, I'm sure.

00:58:23   Right?

00:58:24   'Cause I feel like Fantastic Cal is an example of an app

00:58:29   that has a lot going on and I deal with it fine.

00:58:32   Like it looks a lot like the iPad app.

00:58:34   Like it's not like they spaced everything out way too much.

00:58:37   - No.

00:58:38   Yeah.

00:58:39   It's not like the future recedes into the background.

00:58:41   I mean, it is just a VisionOS updated version

00:58:45   of their iPad app, but it's good.

00:58:47   It just seems, it's big

00:58:49   and I don't want to keep it open all the time.

00:58:51   And I don't really want to, I guess I can put it,

00:58:53   hide it behind other windows or whatever.

00:58:55   But you're right, the touch targets,

00:58:56   I guess they're eye targets, right?

00:58:58   But the scaling of the iPad app, like I said,

00:59:00   I appreciate the density,

00:59:01   but it is where most of my failures happen.

00:59:06   I'll also say, I think it varies from app to app

00:59:08   because like apps that are super,

00:59:11   iPad apps that are super optimized for the pointer,

00:59:16   for hover and pointer support

00:59:19   are way better on VisionOS.

00:59:21   Right?

00:59:23   Ones that always give you feedback wherever you're looking,

00:59:27   which is the equivalent of hovering an Apple Pencil, right?

00:59:31   This is one of those cases where Apple is recycling

00:59:33   all these things as they move their platforms forward.

00:59:36   So they did the pointer support

00:59:38   that is also the hover support for the Pencil.

00:59:40   And it's now the hover support for gaze in VisionOS.

00:59:45   And the ones that do that pretty well are navigable.

00:59:50   And then there are other ones that do it less well

00:59:53   and that they're harder to use.

00:59:55   But I also agree that, yeah, in general,

00:59:57   the gaze targets are all small enough

01:00:00   that I find that hard.

01:00:01   Sometimes I was in Slack, I think,

01:00:03   which actually does a pretty decent job,

01:00:05   but I had a moment where I was trying to tap on an item

01:00:07   in the sidebar and I couldn't do it.

01:00:10   It was either the one below it or the one above it.

01:00:14   And I couldn't get it to look at the one

01:00:16   until I grabbed the window, moved it over,

01:00:18   made it bigger, stared at it for a little while.

01:00:20   It knows what it did.

01:00:21   And then it finally selected.

01:00:23   And that's a sign.

01:00:24   I do really appreciate, by the way,

01:00:26   iPad compatibility mode, I didn't mention this before,

01:00:29   has rotation support.

01:00:31   So there's a little icon in some apps that support rotation

01:00:34   in the upper right that you can tap.

01:00:36   And it goes from portrait to landscape and back again.

01:00:38   And so when I wrote all those words in one writer,

01:00:41   I was using it in vertical orientation.

01:00:44   So I had a big sheet of paper in front of me

01:00:46   and that was really great actually.

01:00:47   But I mean, the iPad compatible apps,

01:00:49   I guess what I would say,

01:00:51   I don't know what you think about it.

01:00:53   Like there are issues, but they're usable.

01:00:57   And I'm really glad they're there.

01:00:59   - This episode is brought to you by DeleteMe.

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01:03:06   And we'll AFM.

01:03:07   You love panoramas.

01:03:12   - I do.

01:03:14   - And I felt like- - They're really great.

01:03:15   - We shared a moment in your review.

01:03:18   You said, "Seeing a friend give a toast

01:03:19   at another friend's wedding

01:03:21   and being able to look around to spot other people

01:03:23   in the crowd, that was special."

01:03:25   So I remember this happening during my wedding.

01:03:28   I think Steven was giving a toast, my toast.

01:03:32   - He was. - And I saw Jason stand up

01:03:33   and walk and take a panorama.

01:03:35   And I thought to myself, "Oh, that's good.

01:03:36   I would quite like that."

01:03:37   And you sent it to me and I have that panorama.

01:03:39   I've looked at it multiple times.

01:03:41   And you sent it to me again recently

01:03:43   with a second that I didn't have, actually you took two.

01:03:46   And I opened that panorama and I looked at it.

01:03:50   And the panorama is odd in spots, right?

01:03:53   As they tend to be.

01:03:54   But I got a huge lump in my throat

01:03:58   because I was back at my wedding.

01:04:00   And it was very surreal and very emotionally touching.

01:04:06   It was really cool.

01:04:09   - Yeah, I mean, what was great about it is not only is it,

01:04:13   you and Nadine are there and Steven's giving a toast,

01:04:15   but like all these people I know are sitting

01:04:18   at these tables, especially the table, right?

01:04:19   In front of me.

01:04:20   So I'm able to see, I saw Tina, Sarah-Q,

01:04:23   so John's not there 'cause John is also shooting photos

01:04:26   at this point.

01:04:27   But like David Smith is there and I mean,

01:04:29   Gray is there and like David Sparks and I mean,

01:04:32   it's just all these, my kids are there.

01:04:33   - Yeah.

01:04:35   That will probably be the biggest assembly

01:04:38   of Relay FM hosts ever, I think.

01:04:41   Which is very nice to me.

01:04:45   - Yeah, it's a fun thing.

01:04:47   And this is the thing.

01:04:48   I know that Apple has talked a lot about like the 180 video

01:04:52   and that they're doing their immersive video

01:04:54   and that the spatial video from the iPhone

01:04:55   and from the Vision Pro and the 3D spatial shots

01:04:59   you could do with the Vision Pro.

01:05:01   But the panorama, if you get a good panorama,

01:05:06   it really is spectacular.

01:05:08   And I have been shooting panoramas

01:05:11   before there was digital photography.

01:05:12   I was shooting panoramas when you had to have

01:05:14   special software to stitch the panoramas together

01:05:17   and then eventually like Photoshop added it.

01:05:20   And then eventually your phones just had a panorama mode

01:05:23   and boy, wasn't that nice.

01:05:24   But I've been doing it for a very long time.

01:05:27   And I have some that I shot so much that you can,

01:05:31   it's most of the way behind me too.

01:05:32   And depending on the angle and Apple processes

01:05:35   is the other funny thing, right?

01:05:37   It shows a panorama as a photo

01:05:40   and then there's a little like panorama button

01:05:42   at which point it enters this mode and it's doing stuff.

01:05:46   It is finding a way to place that panorama in the right way

01:05:50   and de-distort it and do all these things

01:05:52   to put it around you.

01:05:53   And it's not, I mean, you look up

01:05:55   and you can see your ceiling and you look down,

01:05:56   you see your floor.

01:05:57   Like it's not completely immersive, but it's powerful.

01:06:02   I was looking at a thing I shot about a year ago now

01:06:06   on a bridge over a river in New Zealand and like,

01:06:11   oh, it's so good.

01:06:12   Like I'm on that bridge again,

01:06:14   looking down at that bright blue water,

01:06:17   light blue water coming out of the glaciers.

01:06:21   And it really, I mean, it's not the same as like,

01:06:24   oh, now you're, it's like a memory because it's a 3D video.

01:06:27   It's not quite the same as that, but it's pretty great.

01:06:30   I mean, it is pretty great.

01:06:31   Not enough reason to buy this like on its own,

01:06:33   but like I think an underappreciated thing that it can do.

01:06:38   And then of course my thoughts immediately went to,

01:06:42   well, you can't make panoramas into environments

01:06:45   because they're not as immersive as that.

01:06:47   But I started to think one,

01:06:48   I feel like there's gonna be,

01:06:50   I wonder if there will be options down the road

01:06:52   to build a more immersive environment from panoramas

01:06:57   or from panorama mode, right?

01:06:59   Like iOS might get a thing where you shoot more of it

01:07:01   all the way around and it creates an environment

01:07:04   that you can use, not animated, not with sound,

01:07:06   but like an environment you might be able to inhabit

01:07:09   in the Vision Pro either to work or just to be in.

01:07:12   I wonder about that.

01:07:13   And I also wonder about generative AI

01:07:15   and if they might actually be able to do stuff

01:07:17   where you can take a panorama

01:07:18   and then fill it with generative AI.

01:07:20   'Cause it's like probably mostly like sky and stuff

01:07:23   and maybe it fuzzes out at the edges

01:07:25   and then goes to nothing

01:07:26   or goes to just sort of a harmonious color.

01:07:29   But like, not only would that be nice to look at,

01:07:32   but I do wonder if it like some of these shots,

01:07:34   these panorama shots, I could work in that panorama

01:07:38   if it was just a little bit more.

01:07:39   So I don't know, I think they're great.

01:07:41   I do, you're right, I do love panoramas.

01:07:44   They're really good.

01:07:45   And I have them, Mike, in 1997,

01:07:48   when my parents sold the house I grew up in,

01:07:51   I shot panoramas of every room in the house

01:07:55   and many things outside.

01:07:58   And I made a QuickTime VR oven back in the day.

01:08:01   Back in the day.

01:08:02   And now I gotta get those files out

01:08:04   and I have them all on a film camera, by the way,

01:08:06   shot on a film camera.

01:08:07   So I've got the scans and I can rebuild those.

01:08:11   And those are gonna, you talk about having,

01:08:14   that house burned down.

01:08:15   Like, talk about having memories

01:08:18   and being able to be present in a memory.

01:08:21   I can't wait to be able to do that.

01:08:23   - And I've seen more examples of like,

01:08:26   and I've had like photos and videos,

01:08:28   I've been sending around like the spatial ones.

01:08:31   Sometimes they hit-

01:08:34   - I let you sit on my couch.

01:08:35   - Yeah, sometimes they hit.

01:08:39   - Sometimes they do.

01:08:41   - And like, I had a, we were visiting with a friend

01:08:44   a while ago and they took a video of me and Idina

01:08:46   and it was like, it was weird.

01:08:47   I watched it today, they sent it to me

01:08:49   and they were like, and it was kind of like,

01:08:51   oh, it's like I have a memory of myself.

01:08:54   It was very, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

01:08:58   I think I said this on last week's episode,

01:09:01   but I remember now, like the examples that I have

01:09:03   that I've taken, it is way better to have no movement

01:09:07   of the phone.

01:09:09   Like if the phone is still and there's movement occurring,

01:09:14   that is what makes a good spatial video.

01:09:17   - Yeah, it's a different techniques

01:09:19   and what works and what doesn't.

01:09:21   But I think that there is a, at least,

01:09:23   I don't know if it's the only way it works,

01:09:24   but a way that it works is that you are there,

01:09:27   it's still and you're in the moment instead of,

01:09:30   once you start panning around,

01:09:32   there's an author and it's not you.

01:09:34   - It also loses the, I feel like it loses the impact

01:09:37   of the effect a little bit too, when there's movement,

01:09:42   like that's caused by the camera.

01:09:43   I feel like it's just not as effective, I think.

01:09:48   But yeah, I'm intrigued to see the advancement

01:09:52   of this stuff.

01:09:53   I did today, I took a 3D photo of the desk in front of me

01:09:58   and then opened it and it freaked me out.

01:10:02   (laughing)

01:10:03   Because it was like, ah, my desk,

01:10:05   'cause it also was like a little bit higher than my desk.

01:10:09   But it made my brain go weird for a second,

01:10:13   like I'd fallen, it was very strange.

01:10:15   I don't recommend doing that.

01:10:16   Or do it, but it's weird, be aware of that.

01:10:20   I've traveled with my vision probe.

01:10:22   I will tell you right now, I chickened out

01:10:25   of wearing it on the plane, I didn't do it.

01:10:28   And there were two reasons for this.

01:10:29   One, I feel like--

01:10:30   - You don't wanna be that guy?

01:10:31   - I don't wanna be that guy, 'cause that guy,

01:10:33   the idea of that guy had already proliferated enough

01:10:36   over the week that I didn't wanna be that guy.

01:10:37   Plus, we took off at nearly midnight, I had to sleep.

01:10:41   And so I just slept.

01:10:42   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:43   - And so I didn't do it, but I also feel like,

01:10:45   as time went on, it felt less important to do that.

01:10:49   But what I'll say is, the Vision Pro is heavy for travel.

01:10:54   It's not impossible, but that thing in a backpack

01:10:57   is not comfortable to carry.

01:11:00   - Did you have a case?

01:11:01   - I have the Apple case, yeah.

01:11:03   Which is also heavy.

01:11:05   - Does that fit in your backpack?

01:11:06   - In the backpack I have, yes.

01:11:07   I will say it actually fits horizontally in my backpack too.

01:11:12   I use the Bellroy Venture Ready,

01:11:16   I'm gonna put a link to it in the show notes.

01:11:17   If somebody wants a backpack where they can fit it in,

01:11:21   I was able to fit my dongle bag,

01:11:26   which is also a Bellroy tech pouch,

01:11:28   my Vision Pro thing, and my AirPods Max in a case.

01:11:33   Like a full hard case, it'll all fit in the bag.

01:11:37   So this bag is great for Vision Pro.

01:11:40   But then I got my laptop and my iPad in there as well,

01:11:42   because that was what I had on the track.

01:11:43   And that's a lot.

01:11:45   Like it's, you got a lot going on in that bag, it's heavy.

01:11:50   But it is a fantastic computer for traveling.

01:11:56   So when I got home, I wanted to finish and post cortex

01:12:01   'cause it was done.

01:12:02   And that's still like multiple hours of work for me.

01:12:05   But I was at home, so I only had my laptop.

01:12:07   So I used the Vision Pro and then I had a huge screen.

01:12:10   And like logic on a 13 inch laptop

01:12:14   is not a great experience.

01:12:16   But I had like a 40 inch monitor with logic on it instead.

01:12:19   Like it really, like the Vision Pro is perfect

01:12:23   for making a small laptop more functional.

01:12:25   And more ergonomic, like it really is an excellent pairing

01:12:30   with those two things.

01:12:33   And so like it will be a great travel computer for sure.

01:12:37   But you have to be aware of the fact that it is heavy.

01:12:40   It is heavy.

01:12:41   - I'm traveling toward the end of this week.

01:12:45   And I'm looking forward to experiencing all of the issues

01:12:49   that come with it, pro and con.

01:12:51   I am very much looking forward to it.

01:12:53   - Yeah, I think you're gonna dig it.

01:12:56   I do, I think you'll dig it.

01:12:57   But you just need to be aware

01:12:59   that if you put it in a backpack,

01:13:00   like you're gonna feel it because--

01:13:03   - I'm sure. - Do you have the case?

01:13:04   Do you have a case?

01:13:05   - I do not have a case.

01:13:06   - Okay, you gotta get a case.

01:13:08   - I'm going no, I'm going no case.

01:13:10   I'm gonna go no case and I'm gonna see what the issues are

01:13:13   and then I'll decide.

01:13:14   I got to see the Apple case, the big puffy pillow.

01:13:19   Don't think I really like it,

01:13:20   but I'll decide whether I want a case or not.

01:13:24   - How are you gonna travel with it?

01:13:27   You're just gonna put it in a bag?

01:13:29   - Yep.

01:13:30   - Ooh, okay.

01:13:32   - I'll put it in a bag, yeah.

01:13:33   - You got bigger guts than me is what I'll say,

01:13:36   putting that thing just straight into a backpack.

01:13:38   It feels, I don't know if it feels delicate,

01:13:42   but I treat it delicately, if that makes sense.

01:13:46   - The main part of it's pretty solid.

01:13:47   There are those, there are the little bands and all that,

01:13:50   but I got, you know, I don't know.

01:13:51   I'll stick some socks in there and pat it.

01:13:54   - So today is the first day I worked in the studio with it

01:14:00   and I answered two very important questions for myself.

01:14:04   - Okay.

01:14:05   - One is, which I was really worried about,

01:14:08   how was it gonna deal with the terrible overhead lighting

01:14:10   that I have, right?

01:14:12   I've spoken about this on the show before, right?

01:14:14   That Mac webcams struggle with it.

01:14:17   It was fun.

01:14:19   - Nothing, no flickering, nothing.

01:14:21   So thank you to Apple for dealing with that.

01:14:24   And also I was wondering,

01:14:26   will my fancy keyboards plugged in via USB

01:14:30   work with universal control?

01:14:32   And they do, they work fine.

01:14:34   - Of course they do.

01:14:35   - But mice don't.

01:14:36   What is going on with that?

01:14:41   - Do the mice even not work in universal control?

01:14:43   - Nothing.

01:14:45   - Huh, interesting.

01:14:47   - So my Logitech mouse, it just stops at the edge of the Mac

01:14:50   and doesn't do anything.

01:14:50   - It stops at the edge, wow, that's wild.

01:14:52   - I don't know what the thinking is there

01:14:54   because mice work on iPad.

01:14:57   - Yeah, they don't like it.

01:14:59   - Weird.

01:15:00   - They think mice are afraid of vision pros.

01:15:02   - That was very, very strange to me,

01:15:05   but I was super happy that my nice,

01:15:06   I care more about the keyboard

01:15:08   'cause I use a mouse and a track pad at my desk.

01:15:11   I use both and so I can just use that.

01:15:13   And also to be honest, I'm still mostly using eye tracking

01:15:18   than a track pad when I'm like going from window to window.

01:15:25   Like I just use the mouse on my Mac

01:15:28   and then I look at something on another window

01:15:30   and I'm using eye tracking and typing and stuff like that.

01:15:33   So I use that combo and I love that combo

01:15:35   that you have all of these different input methods.

01:15:38   It's like one of the things I loved about iPad.

01:15:43   Talking about that quickly,

01:15:44   I've had a lot of people say to me like,

01:15:46   oh, why is nobody talking about the fact

01:15:47   that you can directly manipulate an app?

01:15:50   Because it's not a good experience is why.

01:15:52   Like, you know what I mean?

01:15:54   You can bring an app to you and you can like scroll it

01:15:57   and tap it and that kind of stuff.

01:15:58   - Oh yeah, right, right, yeah, you can.

01:16:00   - It is not nice to do.

01:16:01   - I hate it.

01:16:02   - It's not a good experience, which is like the reason,

01:16:04   like people, I'm seeing a lot of videos made about it.

01:16:07   Like, oh look, you can do this.

01:16:09   It's like, it looks good for a video,

01:16:11   but it is not a nice experience to like try and scroll

01:16:14   and stuff like that.

01:16:15   - Yeah, what the videos don't show is that inside

01:16:18   you're touching a thing that isn't there, has no feedback.

01:16:23   Like typing on that keyboard is terrible enough,

01:16:26   but the idea that you're now tapping on the,

01:16:28   you know, it's not there on the invisible place

01:16:31   and not, and your finger just passes through

01:16:34   and when it passes through, it registers the tap.

01:16:36   It's, I hate it, it's awful.

01:16:38   - Yep, the eye tracking is great.

01:16:40   The kind of like finger tracking is not good, right?

01:16:42   Like, you know, so it is not a good experience to do that.

01:16:46   Like you can, but you shouldn't.

01:16:48   You really should be using all the other different methods

01:16:51   of input that they have.

01:16:53   - Yeah, agreed.

01:16:55   - What else would you like to talk about today?

01:16:57   - Oh, I didn't realize this, but there are some videos

01:17:03   in the Disney+ app that are high frame rate,

01:17:06   including "Avatar" and Disney has said,

01:17:08   I think "Titanic" is gonna go in there in high frame rate.

01:17:11   I, one of the things that we haven't talked about a lot

01:17:14   is that this device supports high frame rate video.

01:17:17   And so like the "Avatar" movies are in 48 frames a second,

01:17:20   3D, and while it is, you know, high frame rate is weird

01:17:25   in a sense that you almost get that soap opera effect

01:17:28   a little bit, but "Avatar" is so unreal already.

01:17:33   And honestly, getting rid of motion judder

01:17:36   and having everything be smooth,

01:17:38   especially in these, you know, almost entirely CGI,

01:17:41   3D scenes in "Avatar", it's really good.

01:17:44   I actually really like it.

01:17:46   There are moments where I'm watching "Avatar"

01:17:48   and I feel like I'm literally just watching

01:17:49   a video game cut scene, but I think that that's because

01:17:52   video game cut scenes are literally trying to be movies.

01:17:55   And this is a movie that's trying to be a movie too.

01:17:58   It's not trying to be a video game cut scene,

01:18:00   but there are those moments that I have that where I'm like,

01:18:02   what is this?

01:18:04   But the high frame rate video, oh, like again,

01:18:07   not for everything, it's got issues, but I'm curious.

01:18:10   And I would actually really like to see if whoever is it,

01:18:15   would it be in "Max"?

01:18:16   I don't know where the "Lord of the Rings"

01:18:17   or the "Hobbit" movies that were shot in high frame rate are,

01:18:20   but I'm actually kind of curious.

01:18:21   I know that people, a lot of people didn't like it,

01:18:23   but like, this is a device that's capable

01:18:26   of showing high frame rate and capable of showing 3D.

01:18:29   And I think that's cool because we don't have a lot of like

01:18:32   video viewing devices that will offer those things.

01:18:36   So anyway, I just wanted to mention that,

01:18:38   that it's actually in like a,

01:18:40   I think a Disney press release that they have these movies

01:18:43   that are gonna be in high frame rate.

01:18:45   - That's cool.

01:18:45   - I mentioned last week, by the way,

01:18:48   that some of my movies were in 3D, but not in 3D.

01:18:52   It turns out a bunch of people sent this in

01:18:55   and including I heard from somebody inside at Apple

01:18:57   who said that like, it's an issue with movies anywhere

01:19:00   where you buy it on a disc and you put in a code

01:19:02   and then it goes in your iTunes library

01:19:03   where it was not registering.

01:19:05   So the issue was it said you could play it in 3D,

01:19:09   but it didn't play in 3D.

01:19:11   If it was a movies anywhere movie.

01:19:13   And they seem to have adjusted that on the store side

01:19:15   where now it doesn't say you can play it in 3D.

01:19:18   Now it's still a real bummer because one,

01:19:20   I'd like it if I could, thank you very much.

01:19:22   There's probably a licensing issue there

01:19:24   where like the movies anywhere, you don't get the 3D,

01:19:27   like how some of them, you don't get the 4K upgrade.

01:19:29   You just have to stay back with whatever you bought.

01:19:31   That's kind of a bummer, but it's also a user.

01:19:33   It's still a problem because there's no way for me to say,

01:19:36   I would like to give Apple money

01:19:37   to get the 3D version of this.

01:19:39   It just isn't possible.

01:19:42   Like if you got it via movies anywhere,

01:19:44   now it's not gonna say it's in 3D for you,

01:19:47   but you also can't get it in 3D.

01:19:50   It's sort of blocked.

01:19:51   Now that may be a short-term fix

01:19:53   and there's a long-term issue

01:19:54   when they may be dealing with the licensing.

01:19:55   But anyway, a little bit of follow up.

01:19:57   That was what was going on.

01:19:59   It's a movie I bought on disc

01:20:01   and the rights aren't there for that movie apparently.

01:20:04   And so it doesn't get shown.

01:20:07   We promised to talk about ergonomics

01:20:08   and I do wanna talk about ergonomics a little bit.

01:20:11   I went to the Apple store

01:20:12   because I still have had issues on and off with Optic ID.

01:20:18   And I've talked to some people who have said

01:20:20   they think that that is because I'm too far away

01:20:23   and that my light shield is the wrong size.

01:20:27   So I reran the light shield measurement,

01:20:29   which keep in mind, I ran on the day I ordered it.

01:20:32   And it gave me a different size,

01:20:35   a smaller size of light shield.

01:20:38   It gave me the, I wanna say 21W,

01:20:40   which was completely sold out

01:20:41   because it's the most popular size.

01:20:44   I went on Apple support site.

01:20:45   They have the ability to ask,

01:20:47   they ask you a bunch of questions about your fit.

01:20:51   You can't just specify a size.

01:20:53   So I started like answering all the questions

01:20:55   in different ways to see what sizes

01:20:57   it was trying to give me.

01:20:59   A friend of mine who works at Apple suggested

01:21:03   a smaller size that is about the same size,

01:21:06   just slightly smaller than the 21W

01:21:09   that has apparently worked for some people.

01:21:13   And I did a swap with that.

01:21:17   So I'm gonna get that today and try it.

01:21:19   And hopefully that will be better

01:21:21   and I'll be a little closer.

01:21:23   'Cause what happened was I took my cushion off

01:21:26   and that meant I was a little closer to the display.

01:21:30   It's not, without the cushion,

01:21:31   it's not gonna be comfortable for very long,

01:21:33   but I did it to see if I could get a little closer

01:21:35   and then Optic ID started working perfectly.

01:21:38   I thought, oh, okay.

01:21:40   - So that was the main issue for why you wanted to change

01:21:43   was because of Optic ID.

01:21:44   It wasn't that you weren't finding it uncomfortable.

01:21:46   - I had people say that one of the reasons

01:21:48   you can really improve your field of view a bit

01:21:51   if you're closer, obviously, which does make sense,

01:21:54   and that you might be able to see things better.

01:21:57   But for me, it was really that Optic ID

01:21:58   would just sometimes not work.

01:22:00   So I went into the Apple retail store

01:22:02   and they're very friendly,

01:22:03   and they were sold out of my size.

01:22:08   I talked to somebody who sent me to somebody

01:22:10   who sent me to somebody, I ping ponged around the store.

01:22:12   Eventually I got an appointment

01:22:14   that was only for like 10 minutes later for a fitting.

01:22:17   But the guy who gave me the fitting, who was very nice,

01:22:19   but like had clearly never done this before

01:22:22   or almost never done this before.

01:22:23   And I have my whole thing in a shopping bag.

01:22:25   I've got all the Vision Pro stuff.

01:22:27   And he goes over and he gets one and brings it to me

01:22:31   and has me try it.

01:22:32   And it's the one that's the common one

01:22:34   that they're sold out of.

01:22:35   And he's like, "Yeah, is that better?"

01:22:37   And I'm like, "Well, the Optic ID works.

01:22:38   So yeah, maybe this is better."

01:22:39   But he can't sell it to me.

01:22:43   And I say, "Well, what should I do?"

01:22:44   And he says, "Well, you should do a swap."

01:22:46   But when I go to the swap,

01:22:47   even though that was the size I tried,

01:22:49   I can't say, "Send me that size.

01:22:51   I have to go through this thing."

01:22:53   So here's the larger issue.

01:22:54   And I'm gonna take this out.

01:22:56   I am not blaming anybody in Apple retail

01:22:58   'cause I think they are overwhelmed and trying their best.

01:23:01   But I've also heard like other people talking about this

01:23:07   who are describing things that I have not seen.

01:23:10   Here's my gut feeling.

01:23:12   I think there is an enormous ergonomics problem

01:23:16   with Vision Pro fitting.

01:23:17   And what Apple needs is to train their retail people

01:23:23   well about walking through different sizes,

01:23:27   about not just scanning with the app,

01:23:28   but walking through different sizes,

01:23:30   figuring out the right ones.

01:23:32   And from my perspective in my store,

01:23:35   it felt like they were really not experienced in doing that.

01:23:40   And what we know from a lot of reports from a lot of places

01:23:43   is that the emphasis that Apple placed on training

01:23:46   for Vision Pro in Apple retail

01:23:48   was on the marketing experience of the walkthrough.

01:23:51   And again, not placing any judgments

01:23:55   on the retail employees,

01:23:56   I'm placing judgments on the people at corporate

01:23:58   who are in charge of retail.

01:24:00   I think Apple made a huge mistake

01:24:04   in not focusing on the ergonomics

01:24:06   of getting these things to fit.

01:24:08   It smells to me like somebody said,

01:24:11   "Oh, we wrote a thing in the app that scans your face

01:24:14   and gives you the right size and it'll solve it."

01:24:17   But I can tell you from my personal experience

01:24:19   that it gave me different sizes.

01:24:21   At different times.

01:24:23   And then when I went in, they scanned my face again

01:24:25   and it was the new size that I had scanned at home,

01:24:28   but was not the size I scanned on day one.

01:24:30   And then they didn't have it

01:24:31   and they didn't really know what to do.

01:24:33   And when they told me what my right size was,

01:24:35   I couldn't actually go through the process on the website

01:24:38   of ordering a replacement

01:24:39   because it wouldn't let me put in that size.

01:24:41   So I think they screwed this up.

01:24:44   I think that Apple retail needs people trained

01:24:46   in a truly extensive sizing experience

01:24:52   where they not only know to try multiple sizes

01:24:57   and know what to look for in terms of

01:25:00   with the person who's trying them on

01:25:03   and not just rely on an app and then sort of shrug

01:25:07   and say, "Well, we don't have that size, good luck."

01:25:10   The website needs to be changed too.

01:25:12   But I feel like they dropped the ball here

01:25:14   where they actually have a product

01:25:16   that it's seeming based on some of the things

01:25:18   that I'm noticing people say

01:25:19   and how they do or do not conform to what I've noticed.

01:25:21   It seems to me that this is a product

01:25:24   that actually needs a lot of work

01:25:27   in terms of getting that light shield to be the right size,

01:25:31   the right fit for somebody.

01:25:33   And when I go into retail,

01:25:37   it feels very much like they have gotten a lot of work

01:25:40   on how to do a demo,

01:25:42   but are a little bit at sea

01:25:43   when it comes to giving a user a proper fit.

01:25:48   And that feels like a mistaken emphasis.

01:25:51   And maybe they'll get better.

01:25:52   I know it's early days,

01:25:54   but using a clever app to scan your face

01:25:56   clearly isn't good enough since it gives different results.

01:25:59   And that when you go in for your sizing appointment,

01:26:04   I feel like, at least in my experience,

01:26:08   it ended up being kind of a,

01:26:10   "Well, this is what the app says, so we'll try it out."

01:26:13   And I had somebody tell me later

01:26:14   that I should have asked for other sizes,

01:26:18   but how would I know to ask for other sizes in the moment?

01:26:22   The person doing it should know, right?

01:26:24   And I think he was under-trained,

01:26:26   but he should be like,

01:26:28   "Well, here's the size that we scanned,

01:26:30   and here's the one that's bigger,

01:26:31   and here's the one that's smaller.

01:26:32   And now here's a process we go through

01:26:34   to determine on your Vision Pro or on our demo Vision Pro,

01:26:37   depending on what the deal is, whether it fits or not."

01:26:41   So I got this gut feeling now

01:26:43   that some people are reporting things

01:26:45   that strike me as being very weird about the Vision Pro,

01:26:48   and I think it's probably ergonomics.

01:26:50   I think it's probably the fit of the light seal.

01:26:53   It might be their eyes, it might be the lenses.

01:26:56   There may be other things going on too.

01:26:57   I get that this is a really complicated product,

01:27:00   but again, my experience at the Apple store

01:27:04   was very much like, they aren't good enough at this part.

01:27:07   And this part seems like it might actually

01:27:09   be really, really important.

01:27:11   So that's my takeaway.

01:27:13   - I agree with what you're saying.

01:27:15   I think part of the issue that they're gonna have

01:27:19   and will continue to have is like,

01:27:21   I don't know if they know yet how people find it

01:27:26   and how it works from a fitment perspective.

01:27:30   - I know, I know, right?

01:27:32   I mean, that is part of it. - And also people

01:27:33   don't have the language to express

01:27:37   what they are or aren't experiencing.

01:27:39   Like I've been thinking to myself,

01:27:40   like I hear people talking about it,

01:27:41   I'm like, I wonder if I am doing it right.

01:27:44   Like, am I using the right cushion?

01:27:47   Do I have the right light seal?

01:27:49   Like these are, we don't truly know.

01:27:54   And that is a complication of the experience.

01:27:57   So for example, for me, I have two light seals

01:28:01   at different sizes because I originally bought it

01:28:06   without prescription lenses

01:28:07   'cause it was all I could do at the time

01:28:09   and then bought my prescription lenses.

01:28:11   And then it told me I needed a different size light seal

01:28:13   for my prescription lenses.

01:28:15   And I wonder like, do people have,

01:28:18   I don't know when, maybe you can tell me, I don't know,

01:28:20   when you buy the reading lenses, do they resize you?

01:28:23   - I have no idea.

01:28:24   - Because they made me do the scan again.

01:28:27   And I wonder like, maybe if you don't get size

01:28:30   or maybe people didn't get sized correctly or whatever.

01:28:33   - They do ask, they do ask, do you need lenses?

01:28:36   And I think that goes into the sizing,

01:28:39   the presence of lenses for sure.

01:28:41   - But like there's something going on,

01:28:42   like I know there's something going on there

01:28:44   with like the lenses and it can,

01:28:46   this isn't for everyone, but for some people,

01:28:48   you end up with a different size light seal

01:28:50   if you get lenses.

01:28:52   So I don't maybe like, what if it failed during the scan

01:28:56   and then people got lenses,

01:28:57   but now they have the wrong light seal

01:28:58   because now their eyes are too close or whatever, right?

01:29:01   Like it's complicated.

01:29:03   It's like, all right, there are two cushions.

01:29:04   - It's very complicated.

01:29:05   - Why are there two cushions?

01:29:07   Like I genuinely feel like I would,

01:29:08   I don't know why they're there.

01:29:11   - Yeah, not really well communicated.

01:29:12   - What feels to me like kind of like urban legends

01:29:16   about what the cushions do, right?

01:29:19   And I feel like it's getting away a little bit now

01:29:24   because you're listening,

01:29:26   because like the potential buyers are hearing me

01:29:29   and they're hearing you and they're hearing Federico

01:29:32   and Jon and everyone's just talking about what they're doing

01:29:36   and they're like, I was listening to app stories today

01:29:38   and Jon was like, I tried this cushion and it was better.

01:29:41   And Federico was like, oh, I should try it.

01:29:42   And I'm like, oh, should I try it?

01:29:44   But you know, like it's complicated.

01:29:47   - And this is what the retail, so, and how do you do that?

01:29:50   Well, if you can't go to a retail store,

01:29:52   you're gonna deal with this sort of thing.

01:29:53   And I guess that's how that's gonna happen.

01:29:55   And that seems to be why the web is the way it is

01:29:58   where they're like, what was wrong with your fit?

01:30:01   And then they generate a size for you

01:30:02   based on your original size

01:30:05   and what's wrong with your fit.

01:30:06   Very clever, but first off, if you get a different size,

01:30:11   you can be like, you can't put in, give me that size.

01:30:14   So that's annoying.

01:30:15   But at the retail, if you're at retail,

01:30:17   this is where they have the power to say,

01:30:20   we have all the cushions,

01:30:21   we have all the light seals in this drawer

01:30:24   and we're gonna bring them out and we're gonna try them.

01:30:26   And we got a method and we're gonna tell you

01:30:28   how does this feel and what to look for,

01:30:30   what to feel for.

01:30:32   And I get that that's hard and they may not know,

01:30:34   but like that needs to be the solution here

01:30:36   for a $3,500 product by the way.

01:30:38   It's like that needs to be done right.

01:30:40   And it doesn't feel to me, at least in my experience,

01:30:42   that they are doing it right.

01:30:44   And I get that it's hard,

01:30:46   but you can't have people doing urban legends

01:30:51   about light seals and cushions.

01:30:54   And I had somebody say, hey, here's the size

01:30:57   you really wanna get if you want good field of view.

01:31:00   I'm like, okay, but aren't we all different?

01:31:05   And are people gonna get the wrong ones and all of that?

01:31:07   And that's why you need somebody who's got all of them

01:31:10   and a process to walk you through it.

01:31:12   And I know that that's what they intend to do,

01:31:15   but at least based on my experience,

01:31:17   what I got was, let's scan your face.

01:31:21   Oh, that size.

01:31:22   We can try it, although we don't have it in stock.

01:31:25   Here it is.

01:31:26   Is it good?

01:31:27   I mean, Optic ID worked.

01:31:29   I don't know.

01:31:30   He's like, great, okay, we're done.

01:31:31   And I'm like, well, that's not how it should be.

01:31:34   It should be a process.

01:31:35   It should be, we got, I mean, Optician's, Optometrist

01:31:39   would be like A or B, which one is better, right?

01:31:42   We're not doing that, but we are doing sizing, right?

01:31:45   Or like getting clothes in two different sizes

01:31:48   and trying them on.

01:31:49   Like you kinda wanna bracket what got measured

01:31:51   and go through that.

01:31:52   And like, I got none of that.

01:31:53   I don't know if that, if I just got a bad one,

01:31:55   I don't wanna throw my guy under the bus.

01:31:57   It felt like, 'cause again, it felt like

01:31:59   he wasn't very well-trained on it.

01:32:00   And I don't know whether that's this store

01:32:02   didn't train him well or whether Apple as a whole

01:32:05   is not training people well for this,

01:32:07   but I know that they all got trained about how,

01:32:09   exactly what words to say while walking you through

01:32:11   encounter dinosaurs or whatever, right?

01:32:14   I know they got trained on those words.

01:32:16   And my experience in the retail store is

01:32:20   you chose the wrong thing to focus on.

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01:33:25   Well, my dog in particular,

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01:33:37   And the food that Nom Nom provides,

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01:33:52   It's food that humans could also eat.

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01:33:56   Some combination of meat and veggies and starches.

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01:34:05   because I know that she comes from a place

01:34:07   of having not eaten properly.

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01:34:12   because she did not get good nutrition when she was a puppy.

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01:34:17   Like it's kind of like now you're able to give her

01:34:20   what she deserves.

01:34:21   - Oh yeah, and she wants it.

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01:34:26   hey, it's somewhere vaguely near five o'clock.

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01:34:30   That we entered the feed me era about an hour

01:34:32   before I actually feed her.

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01:35:18   Our thanks to Nom Nom for their support of this show

01:35:21   and Relay FM.

01:35:23   Let's finish out with some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:35:26   We got lots and lots of Vision Pro Ask Upgrade questions

01:35:31   and I encourage people to keep sending them in.

01:35:32   We won't get to them all today, but we will get to them.

01:35:34   So please keep sending them in.

01:35:36   Dylan writes in to say, and this is actually,

01:35:38   I wanted to do this one first

01:35:39   because it follows on from what we were just talking about.

01:35:42   Are you having any lens glare

01:35:44   inside of your Apple Vision Pro?

01:35:46   This happens for me during high contrast movie scenes

01:35:49   or when viewing any bright content

01:35:51   against dark environments.

01:35:52   These moments make the viewing experience look smudged

01:35:56   and lowered the device's overall immersion.

01:35:58   Apple Vision Pro is a brilliant device,

01:36:00   but this drawback is unfortunate given the price point.

01:36:02   I am wondering if my Zeiss lenses

01:36:04   have anything to do with it.

01:36:06   - And I have absolutely seen the lens glare.

01:36:09   I only really noticed it in very dark environments

01:36:14   where there's a very bright image in the center.

01:36:17   So basically that's, yeah, movies in a dark environment

01:36:21   and it's absolutely there.

01:36:22   It's like a lens flare.

01:36:24   It happens at the sort of toward the bottom

01:36:26   and it is a bit distracting and it is, it's kind of a bummer.

01:36:30   I mean, my answer is use a different environment,

01:36:34   but if you wanna be in the dark movie theater

01:36:36   and have that kind of feel, it's there.

01:36:40   I'm wearing Zeiss lenses, absolutely.

01:36:42   I don't know whether it magnifies it or not,

01:36:44   but it's definitely a real thing.

01:36:46   - This is funny because today I was having

01:36:50   the same lens glare issues with all the lights on

01:36:53   in my studio just sitting and doing work.

01:36:55   So this is one of the things, what's causing it?

01:36:57   I don't know, right?

01:36:59   Is it reflection?

01:37:00   Is it light coming in?

01:37:02   Like this is like another of these things

01:37:03   where I feel like I'm, again,

01:37:05   like everything we've been talking about today,

01:37:07   hearing completely different examples and reasons

01:37:12   and possible theories about something

01:37:15   that we just don't understand yet.

01:37:16   But yes, there is some glare.

01:37:18   - Zach in the Discord is saying it happens without inserts.

01:37:21   So my expectation is there could be multiple things

01:37:25   going on here that if you're in a dark environment

01:37:27   and there's some bright light, it may reflect,

01:37:30   but also you can just, if light gets in,

01:37:33   like you've got light getting in from somewhere

01:37:35   that also it could reflect from the screens.

01:37:37   I don't know, but there is glare going on.

01:37:40   That's for sure.

01:37:41   We go from glare to Blair.

01:37:44   Blair asks, do you think the one virtual display limit

01:37:47   when mirroring from a Mac is a hardware limitation

01:37:51   or could support for multiple displays

01:37:53   or breaking windows out of a single Mac display

01:37:56   be added in a future software update?

01:37:58   So Ben Thompson has said,

01:38:02   he said it in his Chitakri article about the Vision Pro,

01:38:07   that he has heard that there are people inside of Apple

01:38:08   that have more than one Mac display

01:38:11   running on the Vision Pro, which is not a surprise to me.

01:38:14   So I don't know if, I don't think it's a hardware display,

01:38:17   a hardware limitation.

01:38:18   I think it's just a processing thing

01:38:20   and it's probably easier to do it with one

01:38:24   rather than multiple.

01:38:25   Maybe there's an issue with like certain Macs

01:38:28   might not be able to do it.

01:38:29   And so that might add a complication

01:38:30   that they just didn't want to deal with right now.

01:38:32   - Like if like the M1 and M2 Macs can't do it,

01:38:35   but the Pro and Macs models can.

01:38:38   And so they're keeping it simple for now, but maybe,

01:38:41   I mean, it would be great.

01:38:42   It would be great if you could do two.

01:38:44   Yes, it would be great.

01:38:45   I know there's like an open source thing

01:38:47   that it has like a, it's a hack

01:38:48   where you can pull windows out.

01:38:50   I mean, that would be great.

01:38:51   If Apple could at some point make it

01:38:52   so that Mac OS windows just kind of like float

01:38:55   in wherever you want, that would be cool.

01:38:57   But I think it's unlikely because it would require

01:39:00   a real complete rethink of all of the, you know,

01:39:05   interactions with windows.

01:39:07   So I think it's less likely

01:39:08   that something like that would happen.

01:39:11   But who knows?

01:39:12   I mean, maybe they would do something like

01:39:14   make your desktop be transparent or translucent

01:39:19   instead of having a desktop pattern on it.

01:39:20   And so it sort of feels more like Vision OS,

01:39:23   even though it's not, but two displays would be nice.

01:39:28   - Tim writes in and asks,

01:39:31   connecting to a Mac from Vision Pro seems useful,

01:39:34   but it makes me wonder why they don't simply allow you

01:39:37   to run Mac OS as an app natively on the device.

01:39:41   The specs seem in the same ballpark as a Mac,

01:39:44   and it would make the Vision Pro

01:39:45   an even better travel device

01:39:46   if you didn't need an actual Mac with you.

01:39:49   Do you think this is a technical limitation

01:39:50   or a policy choice in Apple's part?

01:39:52   - Well, as somebody who's been championing the idea

01:39:55   of iPad OS getting support for virtualized Mac OS

01:40:00   at some point with a high-end iPad Pro, it can be done.

01:40:06   I would say that Vision Pro is doing a lot already.

01:40:09   And so pushing this hardware even further

01:40:11   with something like this seems like a lot.

01:40:14   I think in the long run, it's a possibility.

01:40:16   You also have the input problem, which is to run a Mac,

01:40:18   you have to pretty much have to have a track pad

01:40:22   and a keyboard.

01:40:24   And the best way to get that is to connect to a Mac.

01:40:27   But do I think it's possible that in the long run

01:40:30   Vision Pro devices, Vision OS devices could run a Mac

01:40:35   just on their own?

01:40:38   Sure, right?

01:40:39   I don't know if they ever will.

01:40:41   I think that there are probably some technical limitations

01:40:43   and policy choices here, but Tim is right.

01:40:47   It's not like this hardware can't run Mac OS

01:40:50   because we know that it does in other configurations.

01:40:54   It's just that this hardware is doing other stuff

01:40:56   and it's busy with that stuff.

01:41:00   I don't know if they even tried,

01:41:03   but I do think this is a potential future

01:41:04   for iPad and for Vision OS is could you just run Mac OS

01:41:08   as virtualized in a Mac app in certain modes

01:41:13   with certain input devices connected?

01:41:16   Maybe, but I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon

01:41:18   on Vision Pro.

01:41:19   - I will say, for me, I do much more like the idea

01:41:24   of using Vision Pro to connect to my Mac

01:41:27   rather than being a Mac, right?

01:41:31   Because then it would be an empty Mac, right?

01:41:33   - An empty Mac that you'd have to sync

01:41:35   and you'd have to do all those things.

01:41:36   - Exactly.

01:41:37   I mean, I get the idea of like, oh, well,

01:41:39   now you don't even need to travel with a Mac.

01:41:40   Wherever you go, a Mac is with you.

01:41:42   But the truth is wherever you go,

01:41:44   you'd still need the keyboard and the track pad, right?

01:41:46   You'd still need that.

01:41:48   So there is an argument to be made that at that point,

01:41:51   perhaps you should bring your Mac and have your Mac with you.

01:41:55   But I don't think it's impossible,

01:41:57   but you're absolutely right that as somebody

01:41:59   who is now maintaining two different places where I work,

01:42:02   like every time I sit down at one after it's been a while,

01:42:06   I'm like, oh geez, that thing isn't here

01:42:08   and that setting isn't here and I need to,

01:42:10   did I update this app over here?

01:42:12   And like, there is an advantage to having it be yours

01:42:15   and not another Mac that has to sync

01:42:17   all the things from your Mac.

01:42:19   - Yep.

01:42:20   And Kevin writes in to say,

01:42:23   "Many, if not most of the initial Vision Pro reviews

01:42:27   have called out how big you can make windows,

01:42:29   especially video and how impressive this is.

01:42:31   But I find it a little puzzling

01:42:33   and wonder if you could comment based on your experience.

01:42:36   What's the practical difference between a small window

01:42:39   positioned close to your face and a large virtual screen

01:42:42   in a virtual movie theater?

01:42:44   Is watching a movie on a massive window in Vision Pro

01:42:46   really any different from sitting closer to a 4K TV

01:42:49   in your living room?"

01:42:50   - I mean, the truth is that the Z-axis

01:42:54   is kind of a lie in Vision Pro.

01:42:55   Everything is always sort of the same size.

01:42:57   It's just sort of where it is in the stack,

01:43:00   but you can also resize images.

01:43:02   So I would say is the practical difference

01:43:04   is actually between a movie window

01:43:07   that is in the center of your vision,

01:43:10   but it's only sort of like in a narrow field

01:43:12   or you make it really big.

01:43:14   And now it's like you're sitting in the first row

01:43:15   of a movie theater where you can't actually even see

01:43:18   the whole picture in your vision

01:43:19   without turning or looking in the corners.

01:43:21   That's the difference here

01:43:23   is that you can make them really big.

01:43:24   Now, could you sit closer to the 4K TV in your living room

01:43:29   and get a similar thing?

01:43:30   Yes, you could.

01:43:33   But people don't do that. (laughs)

01:43:38   And yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what I would say

01:43:44   is yes, you could get really close.

01:43:46   Although the quality is very good.

01:43:48   When I get close to my 4K TV, I see a lot of artifacts,

01:43:54   which I don't feel like I see so much on Vision Pro.

01:43:57   But the idea is that you can be anywhere

01:44:00   and be as close to the screen as you want.

01:44:03   Whereas in the real world,

01:44:04   unless you put your TV right next to your couch,

01:44:08   you're probably looking at it from a distance.

01:44:11   And so, yeah, I don't know.

01:44:13   I think to me, that's the difference.

01:44:16   - I mean, look, it's perspective and it tricks your brain.

01:44:19   It's like, why even go to the cinema?

01:44:22   What is it about seeing a cinema screen that you like?

01:44:25   Then why not just always sit really close to your television?

01:44:28   Like there is a perspective thing that feels good.

01:44:31   Like having like a really large window,

01:44:34   it just looks cool.

01:44:35   And it's like, oh wow, look at the size of that screen.

01:44:38   I could sit very close to my TV,

01:44:40   but that's just not comfortable for me.

01:44:42   Like I wouldn't like that,

01:44:44   but it's nice to be able to sit and relax

01:44:47   and have a screen that's really large.

01:44:49   It just looks cool.

01:44:51   And it feels like I'm at a cinema, even though I'm not.

01:44:54   - Yep.

01:44:56   - If you would like to send in your questions

01:44:58   for a future episode, go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:45:01   It's also where you can send in your follow-up

01:45:04   or any other feedback that you have about the show.

01:45:06   Please go read Jason's excellent review in full

01:45:10   over at sixcolors.com.

01:45:11   It's definitely worth checking out.

01:45:13   You can hear us both here on Relay FM,

01:45:16   where we have multiple shows.

01:45:17   You can also hear Jason on the incomparable.com as well.

01:45:20   And if you want to check out my product work,

01:45:22   go to cortexbrand.com.

01:45:24   You can find us online on Mastodon.

01:45:26   Jason is @jsnell on zeppelin.flights.

01:45:29   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social.

01:45:33   We're also on threads.

01:45:34   I am @imike and Jason is @jsnell there as well.

01:45:37   You can watch video clips of the show on TikTok

01:45:40   and Instagram and full episodes and clips on YouTube.

01:45:43   We are @upgraderelay on all of them.

01:45:46   Thank you to our members, the supporters of Upgrade Plus.

01:45:49   Thank you so much if you do.

01:45:50   You get longer ad-free versions of the show

01:45:53   and tons of great benefits of being a Relay FM member.

01:45:56   Go to getupgradeplus.com to find out more.

01:45:59   Today in Upgrade Plus,

01:46:01   we're going to rank the environments in Vision Pro,

01:46:04   which me and Jason are both very excited about.

01:46:06   Thank you to our sponsors, Nom Nom, Delete Me, and Factor.

01:46:10   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:46:12   We'll be back next time for episode 500 of Upgrade.

01:46:17   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:46:21   - Goodbye, everybody.

01:46:22   (upbeat music)

01:46:24   (upbeat music)

01:46:27   (upbeat music)