0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 497 for January 29th, 2024.
0:00:16Today's show is brought to you by Notion and Oodie Pizza Ovens.
0:00:20My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.
0:00:24Hi, Mike Hurley. How are we so close to Upgrade 500?
0:00:26I know. I have a little task which is like check the 500 draft.
0:00:30Yeah, really.
0:00:31I'll be doing that soon.
0:00:32Wild.
0:00:34I have a Snow Talk question for you, Jason.
0:00:35It comes from Eli, last name withheld, who says,
0:00:38"Jason, did you enjoy the Flop House live on Friday?
0:00:41I hope I wasn't too much of an overbearing fan of Upgrade."
0:00:45No, Eli was very nice.
0:00:46I did very much enjoy the Flop House live on Friday.
0:00:48It turned out, although Eli did and his wife chatted with me and my wife briefly,
0:00:54then Merlin and his kid sat down at their table.
0:00:58And then we didn't speak to them again because they just talked to Merlin and Merlin's kid after that.
0:01:05So, yeah.
0:01:06That's pretty great. Did you speak to, did you see Merlin?
0:01:09I gave a little hug to Merlin. Yeah.
0:01:11I mean, he saw me, he spotted me and because, because I think Eli said,
0:01:14"Oh, you know, we were just talking to Jason."
0:01:15And then our eyes locked across, you know, two tables.
0:01:18And he came over and gave me a hug and we chatted a couple of times and made jokes about John Syracuse.
0:01:23You know, as you do. As you do.
0:01:25Basically when any of us get together, there's always jokes about John.
0:01:30Well, you gotta, you know.
0:01:30Can you believe, by the way, can you believe the Mac Pro?
0:01:34I just like, I feel like I can't believe from last time.
0:01:37That John picked the current Mac Pro as the Hall of Shame?
0:01:41Yes.
0:01:41I just, I can't, I can't accept it.
0:01:43I can believe it because it's John.
0:01:46No, no.
0:01:47I just, I can't.
0:01:49I don't endorse it.
0:01:50I'll put a link in the show notes to one of our video clips.
0:01:53So you can see my reaction for when, for John's pick.
0:01:57Because it's-
0:01:58You were not happy.
0:01:59No, I wasn't happy.
0:02:00Did the two times people flipped off the camera,
0:02:03make it into the video version?
0:02:04Do we know that?
0:02:05I don't know if that happened or not.
0:02:07I don't, I don't know why-
0:02:08There were two times where people got sniped for picks
0:02:11and gave the finger to the picking person.
0:02:14Anyway, I was a little behind the scenes about that.
0:02:16Wow, look at you now.
0:02:17Throwing it out there.
0:02:20If you would like to send in a snow talk question of your own
0:02:22to help us open a future episode of Upgrade,
0:02:27just go to upgradefeedback.com and send it in.
0:02:30We were talking a little bit about the 40th anniversary
0:02:33of the Mac draft just there.
0:02:34That's what we were referring to.
0:02:36Jason spoke about the video.
0:02:38This is, I think, the best video episode of the show so far.
0:02:42So-
0:02:43Certainly.
0:02:44If you've been wanting, you know,
0:02:44maybe you want to see what it's like,
0:02:45maybe you want to see what a video version of the show
0:02:47is like, wonderful video editor, Chip,
0:02:49did a great job with this episode.
0:02:51Absolutely.
0:02:52We have video of every participant in the draft,
0:02:54and so people can go and check that out.
0:02:57I'll say, I also just wanted to thank so many Upgradients
0:03:00who said so many nice things about that episode.
0:03:03It was, I was terrified about that episode.
0:03:06I didn't think it was going to work.
0:03:07I thought it was too many people,
0:03:09and I was worried that it wasn't going to work.
0:03:10But as we were doing it, I was like, oh, this is working.
0:03:13And so, Jason, you were right to push for that episode.
0:03:16It was a good idea from you.
0:03:18Like I said, it's the one, the funny thing,
0:03:21I also heard from some people who don't know what a draft is,
0:03:23and I had to explain what sports drafts are.
0:03:25Oh, okay.
0:03:26You pick, and then once somebody picks it,
0:03:28nobody else can pick it, and you pick in sequence.
0:03:30They clearly don't listen to Upgrad, these people.
0:03:33Yeah, well, or they just don't understand.
0:03:35It may be that they were new listeners to Upgrad,
0:03:38which is great.
0:03:39We welcome them.
0:03:40But, so I had to explain that to a few people.
0:03:43But what I've learned in the incomparable many drafts
0:03:47that we've done over the years is that
0:03:49while I am deeply reluctant to have a large panel
0:03:53on a regular episode,
0:03:54our panels are large enough as it is, right?
0:03:57But for a draft episode, I'll put 10 people on.
0:04:01I don't care.
0:04:02Because although people do chime in and all that,
0:04:05the fact that it's a turn-taking format
0:04:07makes it a lot easier.
0:04:09It's more manageable.
0:04:10It's not perfect.
0:04:11It is hard, but it's more manageable.
0:04:13And so we had a smaller group than an incomparable draft.
0:04:17And I know it was a lot and terrifying to you,
0:04:20but I thought it would work because of the turn-taking.
0:04:24And it did.
0:04:25So, yeah.
0:04:26Yeah, it came up really well.
0:04:28And if you do want more on the 40th anniversary of the Mac,
0:04:31Jason wrote a bunch of stuff on The Verge,
0:04:34and on Six Colors.
0:04:35I'll put links to all that in the show notes.
0:04:37I was actually hoping we could talk about
0:04:38some of this today,
0:04:39but we got some other stuff that we need to cover.
0:04:42Other stuff to talk about.
0:04:43But yeah, I mean, we also gave,
0:04:46did a long episode about the 40th anniversary of the Mac.
0:04:49So this podcast has fulfilled its need.
0:04:51But yeah, I wrote 1,500 words or whatever
0:04:53about it at The Verge.
0:04:54Always nice to see an article I written
0:04:56at the top of The Verge.
0:04:57That's fun.
0:04:58And then I wrote another 1,500 words or so
0:05:00at Six Colors about it.
0:05:01And then I have a piece where I talked to
0:05:04Greg Jostwiak a little bit, just very briefly about it,
0:05:07because that's what I seem to do every 10 years,
0:05:09is check in with Apple executives about
0:05:11where they reassure me that the Mac is not going away.
0:05:14That's a trend I've discovered
0:05:17in how I apparently live my life.
0:05:20So yeah.
0:05:21- One last piece of follow-up here.
0:05:23Apple has not been successful in winning the many appeals
0:05:27that they've been going through with the Apple Watch
0:05:29and the blood oxygen sensor.
0:05:31And so it now has decided to continue selling
0:05:36both the Apple Watch Series 9 and the Apple Watch Ultra 2
0:05:39with the blood oxygen sensor disabled.
0:05:44That's what they're doing.
0:05:45So they've just disabled it.
0:05:46It doesn't work.
0:05:47It's still in there, I believe, but it's not happening.
0:05:50And they're gonna continue down the lawmaking process
0:05:53and the legal process here,
0:05:55which I find the whole thing to be very strange.
0:05:59But there you go.
0:06:00If you're in the US and you don't have an Apple Watch
0:06:03and you want one, well,
0:06:04that feature's not gonna work for you.
0:06:06And that's the way it is.
0:06:08- I have some breaking follow-up.
0:06:12- Okay.
0:06:13I'm gonna put it here.
0:06:14Is it follow-up?
0:06:15I don't know, but I'm gonna put it here
0:06:16'cause we have so much to talk about today.
0:06:18I'm just gonna say, we do this podcast on Zoom.
0:06:20- Yep.
0:06:21- Breaking just now, Zoom has announced
0:06:23they are doing a Vision OS app.
0:06:25It will support personas
0:06:27and it will support a spatial experience
0:06:29to make meetings immersive.
0:06:31So will there be a immersive version of upgrade in Zoom
0:06:37on a Vision Pro at some point?
0:06:39Only time will tell, but this makes it,
0:06:41I'd say, a little more likely.
0:06:44- Huh.
0:06:44- Yeah.
0:06:46- So reading from The Verge,
0:06:48"Zoom says it's planning on bringing more features
0:06:52"to the app later this spring,
0:06:53"including something called real-world pinning.
0:06:56"This is supposed to make calls feel more immersive
0:06:58"by letting Vision Pro users pin
0:07:00"up to five Zoom meeting participants in a physical space
0:07:04"while removing the caller's background."
0:07:06- Hmm, yeah.
0:07:08Well, they have some weird tech in Zoom now
0:07:11where you can have a, it's like a fake meeting room
0:07:15and it'll cut out the people's, just their body,
0:07:19not the background and place them in that space.
0:07:22- Yeah.
0:07:22- So it's kind of,
0:07:23they're already experimenting with stuff like this.
0:07:25So I imagine there's gonna be more of that going on.
0:07:28But I don't know, just, it seems like people are starting
0:07:33to announce their Vision Pro apps, is what I'm saying.
0:07:36I like, yeah, this is all,
0:07:40this is all starting to happen.
0:07:42I have multiple app announcements in my mailbox, right?
0:07:45- Oh yeah?
0:07:46- Yeah.
0:07:47- Oh boy, well, that's exciting.
0:07:48I'm excited about that.
0:07:50- Mm-hmm.
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0:09:12It doesn't replace what I've written.
0:09:13It just helps add to my work and help make it better.
0:09:17- Does it make that noise?
0:09:18Does it go dip-doo-doo-doo-dap?
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0:10:13All right, so, okay.
0:10:19- Yeah.
0:10:21- My plan for today's episode is we were gonna,
0:10:24we were gonna like,
0:10:25we were gonna do some Rumor Roundup stuff.
0:10:27- Yep.
0:10:28- We've been carrying some things over.
0:10:30- B-Tails.
0:10:31- Yeah, some B-Tails we could've done.
0:10:33And then also I wanted to talk about the Vision Pro.
0:10:35We are still gonna talk about the Vision Pro today
0:10:36'cause we are just a few days away.
0:10:39But then over the last,
0:10:41over the last Thursday, I think it was.
0:10:43- Yep, mm-hmm, big week.
0:10:45- Apple published their response and their kind of plan
0:10:49for how they were going to deal
0:10:51with the European Union's Digital Markets Act, the DMA.
0:10:55And inherently they have upended tons
0:11:00of what the App Store and what iOS could be to,
0:11:05they have proposed a series of upendings to this
0:11:10for their plan for how they will work
0:11:12within the European Union's new rules guidelines.
0:11:17So I'm gonna give a disclaimer to this.
0:11:19All of this stuff that we're about to talk about
0:11:21is incredibly complicated.
0:11:23We have both worked for hours to try and understand this
0:11:27the best we can.
0:11:29But it is going to take longer than today's episode
0:11:32to fully comprehend it.
0:11:32So I expect you will hear us say things today
0:11:36that may be wrong or may be misunderstood.
0:11:40I have already listened to many podcasts
0:11:42with many of my favorite creators who are doing that too.
0:11:45They're saying something and I'm like, I know that's wrong.
0:11:48But this is just where we are right now
0:11:49because the complication of this is kind of massive.
0:11:52So what I am going to try and attempt to do here
0:11:55is to go through the salient points
0:11:59of Apple's response to the DMA
0:12:02and then we're gonna talk about them.
0:12:03And Jason, I'm just gonna read,
0:12:05I'm gonna start reading this stuff.
0:12:06You can jump in wherever you want.
0:12:08But other than that, we're gonna have
0:12:09like a big conversation about it at the end.
0:12:11But I feel like we have to kind of try
0:12:12and set the table for this because I also know
0:12:16a lot of our listeners are interested in this
0:12:18but don't want to spend the three hours reading it.
0:12:20So that is like what we provide you today.
0:12:23So Apple is making a series of changes to iOS
0:12:28and the available terms for developers
0:12:30who distribute their apps in Europe.
0:12:32The changes to iOS, they're more simple.
0:12:35So there'll be the introduction
0:12:37of alternative app marketplaces.
0:12:40These are other app stores, third party app stores
0:12:43but Apple doesn't call them that.
0:12:45I think because app stores is a term that Apple owns
0:12:47and so they don't want, that's their intellectual property.
0:12:51So they will be called alternative app marketplaces.
0:12:55As a communicator of technology,
0:12:57I like that it has a different name
0:12:58because it's easier for me to shorthand it.
0:13:00Effectively, what users can do, they can install them.
0:13:05So you install them from the app store, I believe,
0:13:09or from websites, I think.
0:13:11- From websites.
0:13:12- Right, from websites, you can install the marketplaces.
0:13:15Then you can install apps from those marketplaces.
0:13:18And even as a user, set one of them
0:13:20as your default marketplace for applications.
0:13:24- Yeah, it doesn't have to be, but you can.
0:13:27- Yes, any apps downloaded from a marketplace
0:13:31do not have things like screen time restrictions
0:13:34applied to them, which I do think--
0:13:35- Yeah, shared family things.
0:13:38There are other like app store niceties.
0:13:40- I mean, that stuff's obvious, right?
0:13:42Like the stuff that the app store,
0:13:44which by the way, Apple's talking about refunds.
0:13:46Has anyone ever successfully just gotten a refund from it?
0:13:49- Oh, it does happen.
0:13:50- But it's really, I know it's possible,
0:13:52but it's very hard to do, right?
0:13:53There isn't like a process for getting refunds.
0:13:56You have to like speak to Apple support
0:13:58and then sometimes they'll help you.
0:13:59Although actually in Europe, there is a different law,
0:14:01but nevertheless.
0:14:02- I think the most important thing about this,
0:14:05this is there is a line in the DMA
0:14:08that is that companies like Apple
0:14:11that are found to be gatekeepers
0:14:15have to allow sideloading or alternative marketplaces.
0:14:20And Apple has taken the or and run with it.
0:14:23And I gotta be honest, I hate this.
0:14:26And I think this is why Apple's doing it.
0:14:29So Apple could have fulfilled the DMA by saying,
0:14:33okay, we're not gonna let anybody create their own app store,
0:14:36but you can go through a process, which we'll talk about.
0:14:39There is a process for apps to be outside of the app store,
0:14:42but you just go to their website and you click
0:14:45and you go through the process and you get the app.
0:14:47And Apple has said, nope, we're not gonna do it that way.
0:14:50And I understand Apple's perspective here being
0:14:53by concentrating availability in alternative marketplaces,
0:14:58there's a little more visibility, understanding,
0:15:00and honestly, there's a company that has to be responsible
0:15:04for posting that app instead of it just being willy nilly.
0:15:08Some company with an alternative marketplace has to say,
0:15:11yes, we are gonna put your app in our marketplace
0:15:16that's not an app store.
0:15:17Don't call it an app store.
0:15:18But what it means essentially,
0:15:22and so I think Apple is making a smart for Apple move
0:15:26because Apple's goal here is to make it as unpleasant
0:15:29as possible to get outside of Apple's restrictions.
0:15:34We're gonna see this time and again,
0:15:35but the no sideloading, 'cause it's not,
0:15:37there's no sideloading.
0:15:39There's alternate loading through someone else's store.
0:15:43And we're gonna get into some of the details
0:15:45of what you have to do to become a marketplace.
0:15:48And in addition then, apps that would be
0:15:51in that marketplace have to go through a whole other process.
0:15:54So it's extra complicated and not like what it is on the Mac
0:15:58and how they could have implemented it,
0:16:00but have chosen not to, which is I'm a developer.
0:16:04I wrote about this last week on six colors.
0:16:09There's a great iTunes or it's music, sorry,
0:16:12the music app for Mac.
0:16:13There's a utility for it called Sleeve
0:16:15that does like a little floating palette
0:16:17of the currently playing album and it puts in shortcuts
0:16:20and it does scrabbling and it does all these things.
0:16:22It's a great little app.
0:16:23And if you go to their website,
0:16:25you'll see download on the Mac App Store
0:16:27or just buy it from us.
0:16:29And it's like, you can't do that with this.
0:16:30You can't do that with this.
0:16:32It could be downloaded on the App Store
0:16:33or downloaded on XYZ store, sorry, 123 store,
0:16:38but I mean, sorry, 123 Marketplace.
0:16:42Let's get the terms right here.
0:16:42- 123 Marketplace, yeah, get it right, Jason, please.
0:16:44123 Marketplace.
0:16:46But what they can't do is say, just get it from us.
0:16:48You can't, even with this freedom in quotes that's happening,
0:16:52you cannot sideload independently as a developer.
0:16:56You have to go to some gatekeeper.
0:16:59This is essentially what the way Apple has interpreted
0:17:03the DMA and I think they've done it correctly
0:17:05as far as I can tell for the words in the DMA,
0:17:08not necessarily the intent, but the words in it
0:17:10is the solution to having one gatekeeper
0:17:14is to make more gatekeepers, which is,
0:17:19if I was an independent developer or honestly as a user,
0:17:24I hate it.
0:17:25I understand why Apple's doing it, but it's like, oh good.
0:17:28Alternate gatekeepers. - You can kind of see
0:17:30a little bit though, right?
0:17:31'Cause that breeds competition.
0:17:33Competition may breed different rights
0:17:35and that may help some companies, but it's not simple.
0:17:38It's not the simple move,
0:17:39but it is a move that could at least change
0:17:42what there currently is,
0:17:44where Apple sets 100% of the rules, right?
0:17:47- Sure, no, I'm not saying it doesn't address issues.
0:17:52I think what I'm saying is, you and I know enough developers
0:17:56that we know that one of the issues is the existence
0:17:58of a gatekeeper intermediating the relationship
0:18:01between the developer and the user.
0:18:04And the DMA as implemented by Apple here
0:18:07to the letter of the law, I think, is essentially saying,
0:18:11gatekeepers are not the problem.
0:18:13In fact, they're still required.
0:18:15I just think that's hilarious 'cause it's the first in,
0:18:19I assure you in this segment, a long series of things
0:18:21where everybody goes, oh, oh, and is disappointed.
0:18:26- And I guess from the iOS/user side,
0:18:31another part about apps from marketplaces is,
0:18:34let's imagine you have the Spotify app from the App Store.
0:18:37Spotify moved their app to a marketplace.
0:18:39You can't just download the Spotify app
0:18:42over the place of the existing Spotify app.
0:18:44You have to remove your current Spotify app from your phone
0:18:48and then download the new one.
0:18:50I see why that's the case, right?
0:18:51Like, well, that sounds annoying,
0:18:52but I also kind of like, from a technological perspective,
0:18:55understand why that might have to happen,
0:18:58even though I think there's probably,
0:19:00there could be ways around it, but they haven't got them.
0:19:01Anyway. - Yeah.
0:19:03- Staying on the, what is changing in iOS,
0:19:06web browsers can use engines other than WebKit.
0:19:10So you'll be able to have a web browser on the iPhone
0:19:13that is Chromium, which I think used to be the case,
0:19:16and then it changed at a certain point when--
0:19:19- I don't know.
0:19:19- Anyway, it doesn't matter.
0:19:22And European users will be given an option
0:19:24to choose a default browser for their iPhone
0:19:28from a list of options on the first use.
0:19:31- Yes, a randomized list of options, no less.
0:19:33And there is a defined list of which browsers
0:19:37will be shown in each country.
0:19:39Yeah, actually differs country to country.
0:19:41MacStories has that list,
0:19:42if you're so inclined to want to know.
0:19:44Apple will also use a new system to check
0:19:48if you're in the European Union.
0:19:50So you can use the marketplaces
0:19:54and all this other stuff as a user.
0:19:56It features a combination of checking the billing address
0:19:59on your App Store account,
0:20:00the current location that you're in,
0:20:02the device, the region your device is set into,
0:20:05and the class of device,
0:20:06'cause all of this only applies to the iPhone,
0:20:09the iPad, the Mac, everything else
0:20:11does not get the app marketplace stuff.
0:20:16And I guess one other thing,
0:20:16which is I just think really feels like categorically good,
0:20:19where everything else is a little murkier.
0:20:21Worldwide now, Apple is going to be allowing
0:20:26game streaming services to exist on the App Store,
0:20:29which is fantastic.
0:20:30- Right, but that's everywhere.
0:20:32That's not just in the EU, it's everywhere.
0:20:35So it's a different change that Apple is making.
0:20:38- So no longer do they need to split the games
0:20:40into individual apps, which Apple wanted them to do.
0:20:43This is just a thing that will exist.
0:20:44And so now Xbox Game Pass can have an app on the iPhone,
0:20:48and that's that, which I'm excited about that hopeful future.
0:20:52So that's the simple part, I think.
0:20:55That's the simple part.
0:20:56So that's like, if you are a user in the European Union,
0:20:59these are the things that will become available for you
0:21:02asterisk sometime in March, right?
0:21:04So in 17.4, this kind of functionality
0:21:07will become available for you.
0:21:09If you are a developer,
0:21:11this is where it gets significantly more complicated.
0:21:15So everything that we're gonna talk about here
0:21:17are part of new business terms that Apple has created.
0:21:20And as a developer, you have the opportunity,
0:21:22if you so want to, to opt into these new business terms.
0:21:27You can stay with the current system,
0:21:29if you want to, which we know,
0:21:30we know everything about that system already,
0:21:32but you can opt into these terms if you want to.
0:21:35It changes the agreement,
0:21:37it changes what is applicable to you.
0:21:38But if you opt in, it's a one-time thing.
0:21:41You cannot go back.
0:21:43- And if you're asking yourself, why would they opt in?
0:21:46Well, we're gonna get into the details.
0:21:48It's required that they opt in
0:21:51if they want to take advantage
0:21:53of specific new EU-only features, right?
0:21:57So you can't say, oh, here's a new freedom I have in the EU.
0:22:01I want that, but I don't want to keep the old business terms.
0:22:04That's not how it works.
0:22:05You either are in sort of like plan A,
0:22:08which is the way it's always been,
0:22:11including all the rules, or at least most of the rules,
0:22:14or plan B, which is all these new openings,
0:22:18but you have to agree to these new terms as a developer.
0:22:22- Yep.
0:22:22Top line, new commission.
0:22:26So what we consider as the 15 or 30%
0:22:30that we've had for a long time now has changed.
0:22:34It is either 10% for small developers, down from 15%,
0:22:38or 17% for everybody else
0:22:40if you're not in the small business program.
0:22:42This also counts for digital goods and services.
0:22:45These are at 17%.
0:22:46This is the base commission.
0:22:48If you use Apple's in-app payment system,
0:22:52you pay an extra 3% on top of this,
0:22:55making it 13% and 20%.
0:22:58- Right. - Yep.
0:23:02- So if you do the math here, by the way,
0:23:05if you think of it as 13 and 20,
0:23:07so let's assume that you're using Apple
0:23:10for payment processing,
0:23:11'cause you don't have to now.
0:23:13Let's not get into that just yet,
0:23:15because that will probably also be roughly 3%
0:23:18if you go with someone else.
0:23:19You'll be paying it to someone who isn't Apple,
0:23:21but you're still paying it.
0:23:22Okay, so the small business program
0:23:25for companies that have less than a million dollars
0:23:28in sales a year,
0:23:28so indie developers and things like that,
0:23:31are already 15%.
0:23:34So this is not really much of a deal for them.
0:23:38If you are a larger developer
0:23:40and you're currently having Apple take 30%
0:23:43of everything you do,
0:23:4420%, including the credit card fee,
0:23:50is a much better deal.
0:23:52So on this one level, if you look at this,
0:23:55you can see that this change is not much of an incentive
0:23:59for a small developer, and there's more to come there,
0:24:02but that it does provide a bit of a financial incentive
0:24:07for some larger developers
0:24:10who want to take more money away from Apple.
0:24:15- And I wanna, this is something that,
0:24:17we had this question in Discord just now,
0:24:19and I've confirmed, I've struggled to get the exact answer
0:24:21for this, but I think I understand it to be the case,
0:24:23which is developers all around the world can opt into this,
0:24:28but it just applies to your European Union-based business.
0:24:32So you can be an American developer,
0:24:35but then this will apply to the customers
0:24:38and money made in the European Union.
0:24:41Yeah, I just wanted to just double check that.
0:24:43I thought that was the case,
0:24:44but that was something which I struggled
0:24:46to 100% confirm, so I'm happy that you read it
0:24:48the same way.
0:24:49So we mentioned payment systems.
0:24:51As a developer, you are now able
0:24:53to use your own payment system,
0:24:54either in app or linking out to the web.
0:24:58You are still expected to pay,
0:24:59the aforementioned 10 or 17% commission to Apple,
0:25:02if you remain in the app store.
0:25:05This is no longer, there is no longer a requirement
0:25:07to use Apple's in-app purchase if you opt to use your own.
0:25:11- Right, you don't have to use Apple's system.
0:25:14You can use your own credit card system.
0:25:16- Yep.
0:25:17- And if you're outside of the app store,
0:25:20some different rules apply,
0:25:21but this is even if you're in the app store,
0:25:23you can use your own payment system.
0:25:25You're still paying Apple this fee,
0:25:26so why do you do it?
0:25:27And the answer is you're not doing it to save money.
0:25:29And this is an important point
0:25:30because this comes up a lot when we're talking about this.
0:25:34I believe because in part,
0:25:37a lot of the developers that have been pushing for this
0:25:40talk a lot about freedom and competition,
0:25:43but what they really want is to make more money
0:25:45by not paying Apple as much money.
0:25:48And that's not the same.
0:25:50And so this is a case where you have freedom
0:25:52to use your own processor,
0:25:54you're still gonna essentially be paying
0:25:55the same amount of money, including a portion to Apple.
0:25:58What it does give you is control of your credit card,
0:26:03customer credit card data,
0:26:04which means that you could then, they're your customer.
0:26:07You could email them, you could track them,
0:26:10you could sell their information, you could do whatever,
0:26:13I mean, is allowed under the rules,
0:26:15but like you would own that transaction
0:26:17in a way that you don't when it goes through Apple.
0:26:19So there still might be a reason to do it,
0:26:22but it won't be in this one scenario
0:26:25where you're in the app store
0:26:26and you're using your own payment system,
0:26:28it's not actually going to save you money.
0:26:30- But there are things about control and data and information
0:26:35that could be attractive to a business to do it this way.
0:26:38- Could be.
0:26:40- If you are in an app marketplace,
0:26:42those commissions, the 10 and 17%,
0:26:46you don't have to pay them.
0:26:48So if you are not in the app,
0:26:50these commissions, the 10 and 17 plus the payment 3%,
0:26:54these are only applicable if you as a developer
0:26:56choose to remain in the app store.
0:26:59If you decide you wanna go out to an app marketplace,
0:27:01you are free of the commission,
0:27:03there is no more commission for you.
0:27:05- From Apple. - You pay, yeah, from Apple.
0:27:08You obviously, you're doing whatever deals you're doing.
0:27:10- Because I'm gonna guess that
0:27:11anyone who's running an app marketplace
0:27:13is probably gonna want their cut too.
0:27:16- Yes, but we don't, look, we can assume this is the case,
0:27:20but these cuts could be much fairer,
0:27:22they could be different, there might not be any at all.
0:27:24Like, you know, whatever,
0:27:25'cause there could be reasons that some companies
0:27:28wanna have a marketplace of their own
0:27:31and they just need more apps in it
0:27:32because you can't just have a marketplace of your own,
0:27:34which we'll get to in a minute as well.
0:27:37But the core technology fee,
0:27:38I think this is the biggest part.
0:27:40It is maybe the most confusing
0:27:42and probably has the largest ramifications.
0:27:45The core technology fee, in essence, is like a license.
0:27:51- It's essentially a per active user license of apps.
0:27:55It's, it is, and there's been a lot of confusion about like,
0:27:58oh, it's per install, per update, all of these things.
0:28:02But the way it works is it's per Apple ID and it's one,
0:28:06and once it's one, that's it.
0:28:08So essentially, if you have an app
0:28:09and you update it or download it during a 12 month period,
0:28:14you're essentially considered an active user,
0:28:17but that's all they're really tracking
0:28:19is that download or update for it.
0:28:23And Apple is then saying, okay,
0:28:25so now we know how many people
0:28:26are active annual users of your app
0:28:30and you will pay us half a Euro for each.
0:28:35- Yep.
0:28:37I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna explain it again,
0:28:39because again, very complicated, right?
0:28:41It is 50 cent fee for an individual.
0:28:46The threshold is calculated on a rolling 12 month basis.
0:28:50This is a fee for using iOS, essentially.
0:28:53- Yeah, it's for being, for access to Apple's,
0:28:56it's the same argument that they've been making all along,
0:28:58which is it's access to Apple's platforms,
0:29:00to its intellectual property,
0:29:02to its developer tools and to its APIs.
0:29:04They feel that they are entitled to a payment
0:29:09that was previously embedded in the percentage
0:29:12they took from the app store.
0:29:13And now they're going to take it a different way,
0:29:17which is by charging on active installs.
0:29:20So for example, rough back of the envelope calculations,
0:29:23if you're Spotify and you have maybe 40 million
0:29:27iPhone users in the EU, something like that,
0:29:31they would be paying Apple, not 20 million Euro,
0:29:35but 19 and a half million,
0:29:37because the first million is free.
0:29:39After that though, it's 50 cents per user.
0:29:42And that would be, even if they were a free user,
0:29:45Spotify would still need to pay 50 cents a year
0:29:47for that free user.
0:29:48- Yep.
0:29:49It is inclusive of new downloads,
0:29:51it is inclusive of updates,
0:29:52but it's tied to the individual, as Jason said, right?
0:29:56The first million is included in your developer program fee.
0:30:00So you pay Apple to be a developer,
0:30:03as part of that payment,
0:30:04they give you the first 1 million downloads.
0:30:07That is whether you are in the app store
0:30:09or in an app marketplace.
0:30:12You only pay the core technology fee for over 1 million.
0:30:15So 1 million and one.
0:30:17And it's not like,
0:30:18I remember the small business program,
0:30:21basically once you got over a million dollars,
0:30:23I think you kind of lost it.
0:30:24It isn't that.
0:30:26So if you get to a million and one, you pay for one.
0:30:29You don't pay for a million and one.
0:30:31The first million is included as your fee
0:30:35for being a developer.
0:30:36So you only pay for what's on top.
0:30:39The way that Apple bills developers for this
0:30:42is even more complicated.
0:30:44It is billed monthly divided into 12ths.
0:30:48I have, I felt like my brain was leaking out of my ears
0:30:52trying to understand this part.
0:30:53- The idea is you're not gonna get a bill.
0:30:57So I said, Spotify is gonna get this bill
0:30:59for 19 and a half million euros, right?
0:31:04But they're not.
0:31:06They're gonna get 12 bills for 1.6 million euros
0:31:11every month.
0:31:13That's how it's gonna work. - Well, but it could change.
0:31:14If you get more users, you pay even, it goes up and down.
0:31:18- Sure, sure.
0:31:19Because it's a rolling 12 month install thing.
0:31:23The idea there, I think this is reasonable.
0:31:25The idea there is to smooth out this
0:31:27and have it fairly accurately reflect
0:31:30your 12 month moving basis user base.
0:31:34So if you have a bunch of people install your app
0:31:36and you go over a million,
0:31:37and then half of them or a quarter of them delete it,
0:31:42you're gonna come back down over time.
0:31:46- And so there's obviously Apple has this stuff.
0:31:51They have lots of stuff about this.
0:31:52They have a graphic where they've created an app
0:31:55and like shown how it would be billed.
0:31:57So you can kind of look at that.
0:31:57But they also built a calculator tool.
0:32:00So you can go in and you can say what type of app you are,
0:32:03if you're in or out of the store
0:32:04and they have all the different options and permutations,
0:32:07and you can plug in a bunch of information
0:32:09and it will tell you how much money you'll owe Apple
0:32:12over a yearly basis.
0:32:13It will estimate that for you.
0:32:15Some of these numbers get really high
0:32:17and it becomes really hard to wrap your head around.
0:32:20Apple state that less than 1% of developers
0:32:23would have to pay the core technology fee
0:32:25if they remained in the app store.
0:32:28They also say that under the new business terms,
0:32:3199% of developers would pay less or the same
0:32:35of what they are currently paying to Apple.
0:32:38The core technology fee applies to paid apps and free apps,
0:32:42educational institutions, government agencies
0:32:45and registered nonprofits do not pay the CTF.
0:32:49It is for any other type of app though.
0:32:51If you're a free app, you have no monetization,
0:32:53you still pay the fee once you go over a million.
0:32:56I think that is the explanation of the CTF
0:33:00probably taken care of for a bit.
0:33:03I wanna talk about it in more detail in a minute
0:33:05if you're okay with that, Jason.
0:33:07- Sure.
0:33:08- So alternate app marketplaces,
0:33:11they all need to be approved by Apple
0:33:12before they can be created.
0:33:15They require a 1 million Euro letter of credit
0:33:18to make sure that they can pay fees to Apple.
0:33:21This is not as big as it seems.
0:33:23You can get a letter of credit for a smaller fee from a bank
0:33:27is essentially showing your solvency as a company
0:33:30because you're gonna have to pay Apple money.
0:33:33You cannot create an alternative app marketplace
0:33:37as a developer to only distribute your own applications.
0:33:41It must be set up as a store that accepts submissions.
0:33:45You can specialize to a subject area.
0:33:47So Epic have already announced they're gonna be bringing
0:33:51the Epic Games Store to iOS in Europe
0:33:54because the Epic Games Store is a game store.
0:33:57People apply to be in the Epic Games Store.
0:33:59It's not just Epic's apps.
0:34:01So that is an example of how that would work.
0:34:03But like Facebook couldn't create a alternate app
0:34:07marketplace to put Instagram, Facebook
0:34:09and threads inside of, they can't do that.
0:34:12- Right, they could create,
0:34:13in fact, I was thinking about this.
0:34:14I don't think Facebook's gonna wanna do this
0:34:16unless there, we may see some shenanigans where there's like,
0:34:19we're gonna set up a company
0:34:20or we're gonna work with a company
0:34:22that is going to be owned by or partially owned by Facebook
0:34:25that's gonna be an app marketplace.
0:34:27There are ways that they could do it.
0:34:28But I was thinking about this,
0:34:29that if you're Facebook, probably what you wanna do is not,
0:34:32you don't need necessarily your apps
0:34:34to be in that marketplace,
0:34:36but I could see it being like a games marketplace
0:34:40that is run by Facebook or a Facebook proxy
0:34:44so that they can get basically people to,
0:34:47to get back to directly click on a link in a Facebook ad
0:34:51and go and get it from that marketplace, right?
0:34:54I could see a scenario there.
0:34:56Complicated though, 'cause we don't know what Apple will do
0:34:58and what will be allowed and it's,
0:35:00and there's more to this 'cause then you add in
0:35:02how many free app installs does Facebook have
0:35:05and that means that they're now paying
0:35:07for a thing that previously they didn't pay Apple for
0:35:10and that's part of the overall thing, but we'll get to it.
0:35:12- There isn't an app review, but there is notarization.
0:35:17So if you want to submit your application
0:35:22to the Epic Games Store,
0:35:24which will be an alternate app marketplace,
0:35:26it still has to be submitted for notarization.
0:35:30- Yeah, so let me explain what notarization is
0:35:33'cause it happens on the Mac,
0:35:35but it's gonna be different for this process,
0:35:37but it's based on the Mac.
0:35:38It's what we said all along,
0:35:40which is Apple has been testing this technology on the Mac
0:35:43and it's clear that they will use that
0:35:45when they have to do something like this.
0:35:46So you submit your app to Apple.
0:35:49Yes, even though it's not gonna go in the app store,
0:35:51you submit your app to Apple.
0:35:53This happens now with Macs that are not in the Mac app store
0:35:56or Mac apps that are not in the Mac app store.
0:35:58You submit the app to Apple.
0:36:00On the Mac, you don't have to do this,
0:36:01but it makes it way easier for everybody if you do.
0:36:04What Apple does is they have an automated scan
0:36:07and then they cryptographically sign it,
0:36:09which helps in terms of your security
0:36:13because it means that if the app is then modified later,
0:36:15it doesn't match the signature and the system can say,
0:36:17whoa, something happened to this app.
0:36:19So you get, as a developer,
0:36:21some reassurance that the system is making sure
0:36:24your app isn't monkeyed with after the fact
0:36:26for some sort of nefarious purpose.
0:36:28Great.
0:36:29So with this version, what they're also doing
0:36:32is they're gonna add some layers of review
0:36:33because they want to make sure that,
0:36:35again, that the app is not malicious.
0:36:37They're barred by the DMA from making kind of judgment calls
0:36:41about the kinds of app they want on the platform,
0:36:44but they can have some authority
0:36:46in terms of misrepresentation or danger to the user.
0:36:51So they're gonna add basically app review.
0:36:53A human version of the scan that is incredibly limited,
0:36:58but still a review that happens.
0:37:01And on top of that, another interesting thing
0:37:03is you're thinking, oh, well, notarization,
0:37:04it's not in the App Store.
0:37:06The developer who is submitting to notarization
0:37:10actually supplies description, screenshots,
0:37:15all the kinds of things you would expect
0:37:16would be App Store metadata.
0:37:19And the reason for that is that'll all get consumed by Apple
0:37:22and wrapped and signed and then kicked back to the developer
0:37:25to put in the marketplace.
0:37:27But what it means is that when you're in the marketplace,
0:37:30no matter what the marketplace says about that app,
0:37:33when you tap to install it,
0:37:36you see what the description was that was submitted to Apple.
0:37:41And this is important because Apple is envisioning a scenario
0:37:45where somebody misrepresents what their app does
0:37:48in the marketplace,
0:37:49and it actually does something very different.
0:37:52And in this scenario, what happens is
0:37:54they have to represent what it does to Apple,
0:37:57and it has to match what the app is.
0:37:59And if it doesn't match, Apple can say,
0:38:01no, this is misleading, nefarious, whatever, and block it,
0:38:04even though it's not an App Store app.
0:38:06And that data rides along.
0:38:08So even if somebody were to lie
0:38:10on their marketplace description about what the app was,
0:38:13when you tap, you're gonna see what they told Apple.
0:38:17And that supposedly will give you greater confidence
0:38:20and safety that this app is what they say it is.
0:38:23But what it does mean is that App Store metadata essentially
0:38:26is gonna ride along with the app,
0:38:28even if it's not in the App Store.
0:38:30- I have lots of thoughts, concerns,
0:38:34questions about lots of things here.
0:38:37I think this is maybe the thing
0:38:38that makes the most sense to me.
0:38:40Because I would not expect that
0:38:44if you are a good faith developer,
0:38:45that you would be rejected from this process.
0:38:48I think that the eyes of the regulator are on them.
0:38:51The language in the regulation is clear
0:38:54that they cannot kind of pick and choose what they want.
0:38:57It's only for bugs, safety, malware,
0:39:02it's trying to steal your information.
0:39:06It's like literally there is a very limited remit
0:39:09of what Apple can scan.
0:39:10And I would also say we had what, six years, seven years
0:39:15of notarization on the Mac App Store.
0:39:17And a lot of people are on the Mac,
0:39:19not even the Mac App Store, on the Mac.
0:39:21And a lot of people at the time were like,
0:39:22"Oh, here we go, Apple's gonna take."
0:39:24The fact is Apple's notarization, and it's not the same
0:39:27as it is gonna be on iOS and the EU,
0:39:29but Apple has not used that
0:39:33as a de facto App Store rejection system.
0:39:36And I don't expect them to do it here.
0:39:38If you submit a porn app or an emulator
0:39:43or any other category of thing that Apple says,
0:39:45"No, we're not gonna let you do this,"
0:39:48they can't turn you away if you aren't buggy,
0:39:54causing harm, containing malware,
0:39:56misrepresenting who you are, right?
0:39:58They're not allowed to do that.
0:40:00And so theoretically, they will just pass those apps through.
0:40:04- I heard something today
0:40:07that they're still enforcing app tracking transparency.
0:40:11- Yes. - Which I find
0:40:12to be very frustrating.
0:40:14But it's part of what Apple considers to be security, so.
0:40:17- Right. - So be it.
0:40:18- And it's an API.
0:40:19I mean, it's an API, so they're basically saying,
0:40:21you need to ask.
0:40:22And that's how they've done it up to now, right?
0:40:24Which is you need to ask, and then people say no,
0:40:25and then they don't get to track.
0:40:26And they're using that API
0:40:29because they're still running on iOS, right?
0:40:31So that's a place where Apple can enforce.
0:40:34Like, Apple has looked very clearly, they have mapped out.
0:40:36There's a whiteboard somewhere inside Cupertino
0:40:38where they have very cleverly mapped out
0:40:42what they're allowed to do
0:40:43and what they're not allowed to do
0:40:44and placed certain features inside or outside that area.
0:40:49- With this notarization,
0:40:53it also gives Apple malware protections.
0:40:55I assume that these two things are linked together
0:40:57because by doing this, you are giving,
0:40:59like, Apple is kind of like granting you
0:41:01the ability to run on iOS,
0:41:03which means there is some kind of link
0:41:04that the system is aware of the app as it's running.
0:41:07So for example, if an app became malware,
0:41:10Apple can shut it down, even if it's not in the app store.
0:41:13This is the case on the Mac right now.
0:41:14If you download an app, a notarized app,
0:41:18from an unknown source on macOS
0:41:22and Apple has identified it as containing malware,
0:41:27it will not run it.
0:41:30And in fact, even if it's not notarized,
0:41:33Apple has a kill switch,
0:41:34but they also will do things
0:41:35like they can kill the developer account
0:41:37'cause the developer account associated with the signed app
0:41:40is known by Apple.
0:41:41So Apple can also say that developer is shut down
0:41:43and all their apps will then not work on macOS.
0:41:48So they have a big hammer that they can slam down.
0:41:52But again, it has to be in the name
0:41:54of an actual security threat.
0:41:57- 'Cause we've seen this before on the Mac,
0:41:58that one of the classic ones,
0:41:59there was a, I think it was a BitTorrent app
0:42:01called Transmission,
0:42:02and there was a server hack for them
0:42:06where malware was put into the application
0:42:09and it was not known by the developer,
0:42:11but because it had been notarized,
0:42:12Apple was able to shut it down.
0:42:13So when people tried to open the application,
0:42:16where it would probably try and install malware
0:42:17on their Mac, it wouldn't open.
0:42:19And like, so that's the benefit of having this.
0:42:22So it gives them that. - That's the idea.
0:42:24That's the idea.
0:42:25So I get people being uncomfortable with the idea
0:42:27that it makes, the system that makes Apple
0:42:30no longer a gatekeeper
0:42:31immediately reinstalls Apple as a gatekeeper.
0:42:34I totally get the optics of that,
0:42:37but even written into the DMA,
0:42:40it's saying, look, we're not saying that platform owners
0:42:45don't have the authority to shut down things
0:42:47for security, privacy, safety reasons.
0:42:52And I think that's sensible, right?
0:42:54This is not quite the wild West here.
0:42:58Apple has some authority to protect its users
0:43:02on its platform, but it doesn't have the level of power
0:43:06in this scenario that it does on the App Store.
0:43:09- They don't get to make decisions about content,
0:43:11which I think is like,
0:43:13or like what types of businesses can run.
0:43:15- Yeah, we don't like this app because,
0:43:17and we've seen so many App Store rejections
0:43:18that are also things like,
0:43:19we just don't like this app
0:43:20because it doesn't do anything we think is valuable.
0:43:23- There's not enough features.
0:43:25- Yeah, it's the old no fart app rule
0:43:27that has been extended to all sorts of apps
0:43:29that are actually useful.
0:43:31Plus it's things like, we don't want emulators.
0:43:33We don't want, you know, we don't want pornography.
0:43:36We don't want, I mean, there are classes of apps
0:43:38that they're just like, like if somebody wrote
0:43:40a really great iOS, and sadly not on the iPad
0:43:43'cause it's not covered here,
0:43:45emulator for Mac OS, let's say.
0:43:49Apple's gonna go, nope, uh-uh, no,
0:43:52we're not gonna let that in there.
0:43:53But that's not, they can't reject that
0:43:58under these agreements.
0:43:59They would have to let it go, just like they do on the Mac.
0:44:02There's all sorts of weird Mac apps that they notarize
0:44:06because that's not what it's there for.
0:44:09- All right, final few things, and then we can talk about,
0:44:13we can have more of a conversation about this.
0:44:15So developers have access to using the NFC chip
0:44:19for banking or wallet apps,
0:44:20so you don't have to go through Apple Pay
0:44:22if you don't want to,
0:44:24so Apple doesn't take their cut from your transaction.
0:44:26There are some, I think the most nebulous thing
0:44:29out of all of this is the creation
0:44:31of what is called an interoperability request,
0:44:33where a developer can submit a request to Apple
0:44:36to ask for access to other iPhone hardware or OS features.
0:44:40I expect this email address just goes straight
0:44:42into a trash can, and you can also enable,
0:44:47and to enable all of this functionality,
0:44:48so everything we've spoken about here today,
0:44:50there are over 600 new APIs available for developers,
0:44:55which includes, as you would imagine,
0:44:56lots of new warning screens that Apple has designed
0:45:00if a customer wants to choose to use any other system
0:45:02in the Apple Zone, payments, marketplaces, stuff like that.
0:45:05Shout out to Mark Gurman here.
0:45:0713 months ago, in December of '22,
0:45:13he reported that Apple's OS group was gearing up
0:45:16to do a major update to iOS that would address the DMA,
0:45:21and we see now with over 600 new APIs,
0:45:23this is what he was talking about, and it's funny,
0:45:27I would argue this might be the biggest unannounced
0:45:31iOS feature rolled out in a dot release ever.
0:45:36Because this was, 'cause I had somebody ask me,
0:45:39what does this mean about the next version of iOS?
0:45:41Is it gonna be scant because they had to build
0:45:44all this stuff for the EU?
0:45:45And my response was, no, no, no,
0:45:47this was always part of last year's iOS development cycle.
0:45:52They knew they didn't have to ship it until March,
0:45:55'cause that was their deadline,
0:45:56but based on Gurman's reports,
0:45:59and based on the scope of this,
0:46:01clearly last year's iOS development cycle
0:46:05included all of this planning and work, because it's huge,
0:46:11and there was no way they were gonna do
0:46:13sort of just a late cycle kick in
0:46:15to get it to work with the DMA.
0:46:17It's a much more expansive set of features.
0:46:20It is, in fact, and I think Apple knows this,
0:46:23there will be other places where things like this
0:46:25will be necessary, and so they might as well build it
0:46:27into the operating system and in their mind, do it right.
0:46:31Not have it be a hack, but have it be like,
0:46:34no, there's a whole API for marketplace apps,
0:46:36and here's how it works.
0:46:37There's a whole API for apps that are outside the app store
0:46:40and a whole system for submitting them,
0:46:42and here's how that all works.
0:46:43And they've built it now.
0:46:45The rules may change, the laws may change.
0:46:47In fact, if some country said,
0:46:50you just have to allow sideloading,
0:46:52I think all those APIs are in there.
0:46:54I think you could do that in a different country.
0:46:56If Korea, if South Korea said,
0:46:59just turn on sideloading, it's the law now,
0:47:01Apple has done that work,
0:47:03even though it wouldn't behave exactly like
0:47:05it's behaving theoretically in the EU with the marketplaces,
0:47:09because they've done all this work,
0:47:10work they didn't ever wanna do,
0:47:12but now they have to do, and they've done it.
0:47:15And I think that is also interesting,
0:47:16because now that work is there.
0:47:18- Yep, it's, you wouldn't do it,
0:47:22you wouldn't do all this work,
0:47:23and it only work in this one instance, right?
0:47:24Like, well, you gotta hope, you really gotta hope.
0:47:28That they put the, this is like the foundations are in place
0:47:32for all types of things being split up into pieces,
0:47:35or in all different types of regions.
0:47:37All of this would go into effect in March,
0:47:42provided that it meets what the EU want.
0:47:47My understanding though,
0:47:49is that they don't get told this beforehand,
0:47:54and people are submitting their objections
0:47:59to the European Commission right now
0:48:01about what Apple has put out there.
0:48:04So while this may all look very final,
0:48:06it is actually Apple's proposals
0:48:09for how they would comply with the Demarcus Act.
0:48:12- And I, if there was one piece of writing about this
0:48:14that I think is the perfect sort of chef's kiss,
0:48:17it is, John Gruber wrote a very, very,
0:48:20very long piece about this.
0:48:23I know for a fact he talked to a lot of people
0:48:25inside Apple about this, to get their perspective on it.
0:48:28But the last section of Gruber's thing is so good,
0:48:31because basically what he says is, well, look here,
0:48:34just as developers over the years
0:48:37have submitted their apps to Apple,
0:48:39and hoped that they would be approved
0:48:42by a somewhat untrustworthy, capricious,
0:48:45you just never can tell with those guys
0:48:47what's gonna happen.
0:48:48Now Apple has effectively submitted their work
0:48:52to the EU and the European Commission,
0:48:55and said, what do you think, sirs?
0:48:57And they are in the same boat, right?
0:49:01Which is, they might get rejected, right?
0:49:04Just like a developer gets rejected.
0:49:05And that is a very funny,
0:49:08and I think trenchant observation by Mr. Gruber.
0:49:12- Yep.
0:49:13So, how do you,
0:49:20is it too big a question to ask how do you feel about this?
0:49:23- Feels, let's talk about the feels.
0:49:25I'm surprised by some of it.
0:49:30- Yeah.
0:49:31- I sort of thought that they would go with the approach
0:49:36that they've done elsewhere, where they've said,
0:49:40okay, you can use your own thing, but you still owe us 30%.
0:49:45And it must be that they're reading of the DMA
0:49:47that they can't do that.
0:49:48- I think they know they can't get away with it,
0:49:49otherwise they wouldn't have done this.
0:49:51'Cause they've made it quite clear
0:49:53what they think they should have
0:49:54everywhere else in the world,
0:49:56but this time they've changed that, right?
0:49:58The commission is different.
0:50:02And for some people, as Apple have said, lower.
0:50:05- Yeah, so I think that's interesting
0:50:08that they have done more than I thought,
0:50:10but what really has struck me in reading it
0:50:14and thinking about it and writing about it
0:50:16is that this is Apple, like I said before,
0:50:21it's Apple very carefully mapping out
0:50:23what they're required to do
0:50:25and what they're not required to do.
0:50:27Okay, so I need to back up and say,
0:50:29we've talked about these issues
0:50:30for the last couple of years here on the podcast.
0:50:32And one of the things that I've said a few times,
0:50:34I'm gonna repeat now,
0:50:35'cause I think it's super important,
0:50:37which is there are regulators and governments
0:50:41that are comfortable regulating specific kinds of behaviors,
0:50:46but are much less comfortable telling a company
0:50:51essentially that their product
0:50:54doesn't belong to them anymore,
0:50:56that their method of making money,
0:51:00their internal business costs and calculations
0:51:04that are going to be seized essentially
0:51:08and taken control of by the regulator of government.
0:51:10And I say this because Apple structures a lot of this stuff,
0:51:14including everything they've done here.
0:51:16I mean, if I wanna be incendiary,
0:51:19I can say they're daring them to do this,
0:51:21but I think also Apple has this feeling
0:51:25like there is a limit beyond which the regulators
0:51:27won't step with a company.
0:51:29So what you see here is Apple has built these structures
0:51:34essentially to make it so unpalatable
0:51:38that nobody will want to do them
0:51:41and or that very, very few people,
0:51:43very few companies will want to participate.
0:51:45And that core technology fee is a really great example
0:51:48of a poison pill, because I thought immediately,
0:51:52well, Facebook will clearly do this
0:51:54and Epic will clearly do this.
0:51:57And what will happen with Spotify
0:51:59and how are they gonna handle this?
0:52:01But charging 50 cents for every free install
0:52:05is a shot across the bow of the model most cultivated
0:52:08by the App Store economics, which is the freemium model.
0:52:11Get our thing, use it for free,
0:52:13we'll make money somewhere else or we'll upcharge you later.
0:52:16And so like if you're Facebook,
0:52:19you gotta be confident that going outside
0:52:22or using your own payment processor
0:52:23so you can do more tracking or whatever,
0:52:26you gotta be really confident that that's worth it
0:52:30because your business is run on free apps
0:52:33that will now be charged by Apple
0:52:35at a rate of 50 cents per year.
0:52:38- Which that amount of money,
0:52:40so okay, huge amount of money it can become, right?
0:52:4350 cents a year for per customer
0:52:48is not a large amount of money
0:52:51if you have a decent business model, right?
0:52:53Like if you have a business model that is working for you.
0:52:56- But the challenge for Facebook is,
0:52:57there's a part of Facebook that's like,
0:52:59oh man, wouldn't it be great if we could just put those web,
0:53:01like in the old days,
0:53:02put those web links in Facebook to app sales
0:53:05and then we follow them and we can charge them
0:53:08'cause it's our marketplace
0:53:09and like all of these things about it.
0:53:12I'm sure there's a group in Facebook that's like,
0:53:14yeah, let's do that.
0:53:14But my question is,
0:53:16what revenue does that generate in the EU?
0:53:20And does it, 'cause it's not 50 cents per user
0:53:21who is buying those apps,
0:53:24it's 50 cents per every user of Facebook
0:53:27and every user of Instagram
0:53:29and every user of WhatsApp, right?
0:53:31And every user of Messenger.
0:53:34It is everybody, it's 50 cents.
0:53:38And those are big apps that are used by lots of people.
0:53:42So the price tag is gonna be big.
0:53:44Can Facebook afford it?
0:53:45Of course it can.
0:53:46But my question is,
0:53:48you better be able to offset that.
0:53:51Otherwise you're better off just staying
0:53:53with the current terms.
0:53:54- We know Facebook can though, right?
0:53:57We know how much money they make.
0:53:59We know they can afford that.
0:54:01- But that's not my point.
0:54:03Not my point.
0:54:04So you're Facebook and you're given two choices.
0:54:07Choice A is stay with the status quo.
0:54:10Choice B is spend 30 million euros a year on free apps
0:54:15in exchange for what you get out of it,
0:54:21which is some reduced terms for payments,
0:54:23which you're not really taking,
0:54:25and some enhanced ability,
0:54:27but not as much as you'd think to track
0:54:29in terms of web clicks and credit card transactions
0:54:34and the like.
0:54:35And my argument would be,
0:54:37the group of people that's into that stuff in Facebook
0:54:39is gonna be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
0:54:41Let's do it.
0:54:42But if I'm running Facebook
0:54:43and I'm looking at the whatever it is,
0:54:4540 million, 50 million, whatever that fee is,
0:54:50I have to be confident that by making this move,
0:54:53I'm gonna make that money back and then some.
0:54:57And if I can't, why would I do it?
0:55:00Why would I do it?
0:55:01Right?
0:55:02Like, 'cause then I'm losing money to make,
0:55:04I'm making a move to make less money.
0:55:06That is bad business, right?
0:55:09And that's the poison pill here for a lot of people.
0:55:11Also, anybody who's an indie developer, right?
0:55:13First off, the terms aren't as good.
0:55:15So your terms will improve by a couple of percentage points.
0:55:19It's not really much of anything.
0:55:20And you risk any of your free apps.
0:55:22And let's face it,
0:55:23most indie developers have a freemium model
0:55:25because the app store really pushes you
0:55:28to have that freemium model.
0:55:29Suddenly, our friend James Thompson just told us
0:55:32in the Discord, like even a little, sorry, James,
0:55:35little app like Peacock Lite
0:55:37is over the threshold in the EU.
0:55:40So he would be on the hook for a large amount of money
0:55:43from his free app that is, because it's a free app,
0:55:46not generating revenue.
0:55:49So like that's the poison pill at the center of this,
0:55:51I think.
0:55:52- I feel like a company,
0:55:57we'll just keep using Meta as the example here, right?
0:56:00I could imagine a scenario where
0:56:04if this becomes the worldwide model,
0:56:07which I think we both assume it could, right?
0:56:10That like governments in America, governments in the UK,
0:56:14governments all over, you know,
0:56:15governments in Japan might look at this and say,
0:56:18that's the model, thank you Europe.
0:56:20- And Apple's already built it.
0:56:21- Yeah, because it's done.
0:56:22- Apple's already built it.
0:56:23So Apple can't say, oh no, that's gonna be onerous for us.
0:56:26They built it, it's done.
0:56:27- It's done.
0:56:28So this is like the easy way to say we've regulated Apple,
0:56:31da da da da da.
0:56:32If this became the model in say 60, 70%
0:56:37of where Facebook has its customers,
0:56:40I could imagine a scenario in which they are willing
0:56:44to lose or pay the fee to have a bit more control.
0:56:49- Yeah, it comes down to the details.
0:56:53Like I don't know what happens when you tap
0:56:55on an app download ad in Facebook in this model
0:57:00and you go to a webpage and they track you,
0:57:03like does Apple do some anti-tracking?
0:57:05Like I don't know some of the details
0:57:07that probably won't be known until this gets launched
0:57:12in your Facebook and you're trying to figure it out.
0:57:14Like I wouldn't, do we think Apple's not trying
0:57:18to make that as hard as possible for Facebook to do
0:57:21on top of everything else?
0:57:23But let's say you could get the leverage,
0:57:25let's say you could get value in it,
0:57:28then that's your business decision, right?
0:57:29Is it worth it for me to pay 50 cents for every parent
0:57:34and grandma that's using Facebook to look at pictures
0:57:39of cats in order to be able to monetize somewhat differently
0:57:43with this one part of my business?
0:57:45That's the question.
0:57:46I'm not saying it's not.
0:57:47I'm just saying it's not as obvious as you would think.
0:57:51- And maybe even like a better, like a different example,
0:57:54like a very interesting example is Epic, right?
0:57:56They have the Epic Games Store.
0:57:58They have, I don't remember what it is,
0:58:00but I know that their fee on other platforms
0:58:03is smaller than what Apple's cut is.
0:58:05I think it might be similar now
0:58:06because of this reduced thing.
0:58:09But that is a business where there is sense to be made
0:58:13for having your own app store, right?
0:58:15Because it is tailored.
0:58:18- I think an app store with a product
0:58:20that is generating a lot of money is,
0:58:25or sorry, an app marketplace.
0:58:26- A marketplace where the inherently
0:58:28all of the apps within that marketplace
0:58:31are expected to be paid, which is video games.
0:58:34Or they have a very lucrative freemium model.
0:58:39- Yes, and that's it.
0:58:40You know, like Epic knows how many people play Fortnite
0:58:45or whatever and don't pay versus pay.
0:58:49What's the average?
0:58:50And it's ARPU, right?
0:58:51Average revenue per user is the term there.
0:58:53And if your ARPU is above whatever that breakeven is,
0:58:56whether it's like above 50 cents or a dollar or whatever,
0:59:01then it starts to be worth it, right, to do that.
0:59:03And I think that high generating apps like games
0:59:08are the scenario that is the most likely for this.
0:59:11Now it is irrevocable and it means
0:59:13that you're gonna be paying Apple that
0:59:14regardless of whether you're in the app store or not.
0:59:17But I can see how being,
0:59:20how somebody like Epic could construct a place
0:59:22where gamers in the EU know, like there are good games
0:59:26and they will install the marketplace
0:59:31because there are good games there.
0:59:35And those games are generating enough revenue
0:59:38that it's worth paying the tax to Apple on the downloads,
0:59:43on the active users.
0:59:44It's not even downloads, it is.
0:59:45So like if you get Fortnite and you delete it,
0:59:48you will fall off, but you will no longer be counted.
0:59:54So there's that too.
0:59:54Yeah, I think it's quite possible that games is the place
0:59:58where you might see this scenario.
0:59:59- It's the easiest one, it's the easiest one, right?
1:00:02Because you should as a game developer
1:00:06be making 50 cents per year.
1:00:09- Right, you should not be able,
1:00:10and if you're not, you need to rethink your model, right?
1:00:12This is the whole, like I've been playing like Marvel Snap
1:00:15for more than a year and I did finally buy something in it.
1:00:18After more than a year, I paid $5 for something.
1:00:22And I thought, well, they've now gotten $5 out of me
1:00:25in 14 months, is it worth it for them?
1:00:28I don't know, I have that thought, which is I'm not sure
1:00:32because I was able to, like as a user,
1:00:35I'm very happy to not have to pay to play that game.
1:00:39But thinking about the business, I thought,
1:00:43maybe it's a little too easy to play this game for free.
1:00:46But the business is no, and the game companies
1:00:48are very good at monitoring and doing the mechanics
1:00:51and knowing what the ARPU is.
1:00:53And that's the figure here is average revenue per user.
1:00:57And if you can say, and you just do the math,
1:00:59like, okay, we'll throw in Apple's tax,
1:01:01but we get this back and we control this
1:01:04and we're gonna, and Epic is gonna take this cut,
1:01:08which is smaller, and then we're left with,
1:01:10let's run the numbers.
1:01:11And the answer is, oh, it's worth it for us to do it
1:01:14and they'll do it.
1:01:15And I can see that scenario, but what we're not gonna see,
1:01:17I think, is this incredible flourishing of marketplaces,
1:01:20let a thousand marketplaces bloom.
1:01:22I don't think that's gonna happen.
1:01:23And even stuff that I thought on Thursday
1:01:26was more likely to happen,
1:01:28like Alt Store said they're gonna go there.
1:01:30And it's like, okay, fine, Alt Store, fine.
1:01:32That's an existing sort of outside the App Store,
1:01:36gray market, the kind of marketplace.
1:01:39But like, I thought SetApp would be a good example of this.
1:01:42But the problem is a lot of those SetApp apps
1:01:44are utilities that are very useful
1:01:47and that are also in the App Store,
1:01:49because right now they have to be.
1:01:50And presumably they would stay in the App Store,
1:01:53but for them to be in the marketplace,
1:01:54they have to opt into the new terms.
1:01:57And will that make sense for them?
1:01:59I don't know, right?
1:02:00So it gives me pause for something
1:02:04like a subscription service like SetApp to do it,
1:02:07because all their partners have to opt into the new terms
1:02:12and that might be economically unhelpful.
1:02:15So there are just lots of questions here.
1:02:18- But someone could make something else like that, right?
1:02:21And in such, you model the business in a way
1:02:24that you understand that the CTF exists
1:02:28and that you kind of, for every user,
1:02:30you have to generate 50 cents a year.
1:02:32- It's just a different model.
1:02:33And honestly, having an ARPU for a free app above 50 cents
1:02:38is not hard.
1:02:39- No.
1:02:40- But in the App Store,
1:02:40the way that Apple has had the App Store
1:02:43for the last 15 years, you haven't had to do that, right?
1:02:46Like this is Apple weaponizing the fact
1:02:49that they've let free apps be completely free of charge
1:02:54in the App Store.
1:02:55Now they're saying basically like,
1:02:56"All right, you want better terms,
1:02:57"we'll give you better terms.
1:02:58"You want more freedom, we'll give you more freedom."
1:03:00But free apps aren't free anymore.
1:03:03Bottom line, again-
1:03:05- Because they weren't in the first place.
1:03:07- Huge hit free apps aren't free anymore.
1:03:11We should put it that way, right?
1:03:12Because it is over a million.
1:03:13So congratulations to James Thompson.
1:03:15Pcalc Life is a huge hit.
1:03:17It's over a million.
1:03:18- You can see through all of this, right?
1:03:20You see through all of this,
1:03:21how much money Apple's making
1:03:23from in-app purchases from games.
1:03:25- Yes.
1:03:27- That's what the CTF is.
1:03:28- That's what this is all about.
1:03:30That's why I get frustrated
1:03:31when indie developers talk about this.
1:03:33'Cause the truth is that if you look at Apple's policies,
1:03:36everything resolves itself.
1:03:38Why did they do the small business program
1:03:40and cut the fees to 15%?
1:03:42It was one, to get the heat off of them.
1:03:44And two, they don't really care
1:03:46about people who are making small amount,
1:03:48under a million dollars a year in the app store.
1:03:50They don't.
1:03:51They just don't care.
1:03:52There are a few huge game developers
1:03:56who are selling digital goods.
1:03:58It's what John Syracuse always calls what?
1:04:01Casino games for children.
1:04:02But it's not just children, it's also adults.
1:04:06And it's buy more gems or buy more spins
1:04:10or buy that beautiful set of Marvel snap art,
1:04:14which is what I did.
1:04:16And those few companies that are excellent
1:04:21at monetizing all digital items in their apps,
1:04:25obviously are the vast bulk of app store revenue.
1:04:30Obviously.
1:04:32And that's what Apple cares about is in the end,
1:04:35Apple is trying to protect the money they get
1:04:38from the big players in the game space.
1:04:42That's it.
1:04:43- When I read about the CTF,
1:04:45I'm kind of like, I wished it was just this way always.
1:04:48I wished it was this way from the beginning.
1:04:51When I read about it,
1:04:52I wished Apple had a fixed amount of money
1:04:55they could make from a developer
1:04:57over a million downloads in a year.
1:04:59Then we would not have had all of the stuff
1:05:02we have had around in-app purchases.
1:05:04We would not have had all of this terrible monetization
1:05:06in video games.
1:05:08It would have saved so many bad things from happening,
1:05:11like the thousands and thousands and thousands of people
1:05:14getting laid off across the gaming industry
1:05:16each year at the moment,
1:05:17because games exploded with the freemium models
1:05:20during the pandemic.
1:05:22I wished there was just a flat fee and that was it.
1:05:26And that people built their business models around that.
1:05:29And if you're like, how could you say that, Mike?
1:05:31I'm an idiot.
1:05:32No, 'cause you wouldn't have built your business
1:05:33the way you've built it.
1:05:35To me, the idea that you run a business,
1:05:38look, I have a very different business, right?
1:05:39To me, the idea of running a business
1:05:42and not being able to afford 50 cents per user,
1:05:45like that is, you will run in on some odd margins
1:05:49to the way that things seem simple to me, right?
1:05:51- Right, but there's zero cost to it.
1:05:53So I can sort of see like,
1:05:55if your ARPU is below 50 cents,
1:06:00but you are able to monetize,
1:06:03like, again, I don't know,
1:06:06you've got 5 million users
1:06:09and the percentage of them who buy the upgrade
1:06:11is relatively small,
1:06:13but it doesn't have to be that big
1:06:15for it to be material to you.
1:06:17And it doesn't matter that your conversion rate is low.
1:06:20And what the 50 cent charge is,
1:06:21it matters if your conversion rate is low.
1:06:23You can't run that business.
1:06:26You can't have a deeply inefficient freemium app business
1:06:30under this scenario.
1:06:31You can't do it.
1:06:32And I take your point, which is,
1:06:34you're running a bad business
1:06:35if you can't monetize your free app like that.
1:06:37Like, I mean, it's true.
1:06:38That's just the truth of it is.
1:06:39The whole purpose, okay,
1:06:42we should say there are free apps
1:06:45that people just do for love.
1:06:47- Probably they're under the million.
1:06:48- And can't be monetized.
1:06:49They're probably under the million,
1:06:51or they are just under the old terms, right?
1:06:55It doesn't matter.
1:06:56They're completely free.
1:06:57It doesn't matter.
1:06:58But yeah, if you're trying to make money from a free app,
1:07:02which means it's got an in-app purchase,
1:07:03it's got an upgrade of some kind,
1:07:06you should be able to convert.
1:07:08Whatever you're charging,
1:07:09you should be able to convert
1:07:11probably at a level above 50 cents a download,
1:07:14an active user.
1:07:15You've got 5 million active users
1:07:18and can't convert them at that level.
1:07:22That's not great.
1:07:24- It's weird. - It's not great.
1:07:25- Like, on the face of it, it just seems strange to me.
1:07:28It's like Spotify is saying they can't afford it.
1:07:30And it's like, yeah, Spotify, you have a bad business,
1:07:33model everyone already knows this.
1:07:36Like, I don't think there's anything that Apple can do
1:07:39for you that's gonna help your business model.
1:07:40We all know that.
1:07:42- If you've got 5 million active users
1:07:44and you can't make $2 million a year on them,
1:07:47there's something wrong.
1:07:49- Yeah.
1:07:50- 'Cause that's, right?
1:07:51That's $2 for every five users.
1:07:54- Yeah.
1:07:55- So you're converting whatever that is, 40%.
1:07:58And that's for a dollar, you're converting at 40%.
1:08:01For $4, you're converting at 10%, right?
1:08:04I like, again, I'm just doing the math in my head here,
1:08:07but like, anyway, but what I will say, Mike,
1:08:09is free ride on the App Store means nobody cares
1:08:14what your conversion rate is, right?
1:08:15They don't care.
1:08:16It's like, oh, I just put it out for fun
1:08:18and there's a tip jar and sometimes I get money for it.
1:08:21- That's why I'm saying- - That's okay.
1:08:22- I wish it started this way, right?
1:08:25Like, I know why now this is hard.
1:08:27I'm just saying I wished the 30% thing never existed.
1:08:31- Right, because Apple has, I don't wanna say distorted,
1:08:35but like the terms of the App Store have led the App Store
1:08:38in this direction and one of the terms
1:08:41from the moment Steve Jobs unveiled it was,
1:08:43if it's free, it's free.
1:08:44We don't charge you anything.
1:08:45You can just be there.
1:08:46We'll pay for your downloads and all those things
1:08:49and your hosting, you don't have to worry about it.
1:08:51Free apps are just free.
1:08:52And that was from the beginning.
1:08:54And one of the reasons they did that
1:08:56is because there was this fear, I think,
1:08:58that nobody would, if you tried to put an app up for free,
1:09:03Apple can't charge you for it, really.
1:09:06Like, that's really rough,
1:09:08but they're not letting you out of the store.
1:09:10And so they were like, okay, look,
1:09:12we're gonna control everything,
1:09:14but if you're not charging, we'll just let you ride.
1:09:16And that's fine, but what happened with the,
1:09:18and remember, Mike, at the beginning,
1:09:20you couldn't be free with in-app purchases.
1:09:22- I was just about to say that.
1:09:23It's one of my favorite facts that I think
1:09:25is hard to wrap your head around,
1:09:27that when they introduced in-app purchases,
1:09:29they were only for paid apps.
1:09:31- Yes, free apps were not,
1:09:34freemium was not there on day one,
1:09:35free apps were there on day one.
1:09:37And the premise originally for free apps was,
1:09:40look, they're never gonna make any money for this thing.
1:09:42It's just free.
1:09:43Or it's happening somewhere else.
1:09:45So it's just free.
1:09:46But the moment that you could do free with in-app purchase,
1:09:49everything was different about what a free app was
1:09:51and how it was there.
1:09:52And then everybody has followed it.
1:09:54And I'm not saying it's a fundamentally wrong model.
1:09:57It's proven to be incredibly successful as a model.
1:09:59Try it for free and then pay.
1:10:01And we have lots of friends
1:10:02who have made very successful businesses
1:10:05on the free with in-app purchase model.
1:10:08Most, actually, I would say all the developers we know
1:10:11who are successful have made money on this model.
1:10:14But this is how it works.
1:10:15'Cause this is how the App Store works now.
1:10:18- Yeah, I see what you're saying there,
1:10:20but I think there's like a slight,
1:10:22there's a twist in that, right?
1:10:23Which is just like, they follow the rule,
1:10:25like how the App Store's supposed to work.
1:10:27You know what I mean?
1:10:28But like if the App Store was paid upfront,
1:10:30they still could have been,
1:10:31but it's a different reality to the one that we're in.
1:10:35- That's absolutely true.
1:10:36But yes, because of the way it's worked,
1:10:38it has led lots of developers to work this way.
1:10:41Like, we know lots of developers
1:10:45who've had apps for a long time
1:10:46where the apps used to be paid.
1:10:49And now they're all free with in-app purchase
1:10:51because that's where the market went
1:10:54and they had to go there.
1:10:55And I don't like it either.
1:10:57I understand it because Apple also didn't offer
1:11:00like free trials or things like that at various points.
1:11:02And so try it for free and then pay for the features
1:11:05has just become the model.
1:11:06But there are certain kinds of apps that are gonna look,
1:11:08and that's how it can be a poison pill,
1:11:12is that Facebook has lots of free apps.
1:11:14And that means they're gonna pay Apple a lot of money
1:11:16if they switch to this new system
1:11:19and they have to make a pencil out
1:11:21because they don't get those apps for free anymore.
1:11:24- I wanna talk about the 1 million threshold a little bit
1:11:26because you're right.
1:11:27I think understandably,
1:11:29a lot of indie developers in the community
1:11:31are freaking out, right?
1:11:32Like, "Oh, I'd go overnight and be an overnight success
1:11:35and now I owe hundreds of thousands of dollars."
1:11:38That is incredibly rare.
1:11:40Can you name one other person other than David Smith
1:11:43that that happened to?
1:11:44- He's the example.
1:11:46- Yes.
1:11:49He's the one?
1:11:51- I'm sure like Flappy Bird Man.
1:11:54- That's a game though.
1:11:57I'm talking like, I think like,
1:11:58if I'm talking about like the listeners of our show,
1:12:00the people in our community
1:12:01tends to be independent app developers, right?
1:12:05It is incredibly rare for that to occur.
1:12:09And David can speak to this for himself
1:12:14if he ever wanted to,
1:12:15but maybe he had that and had enough success
1:12:18that he could have afforded it, right?
1:12:20But like it happened,
1:12:21but David has a subscription in his app.
1:12:24Maybe it was successful enough
1:12:25that he could have paid for what would have happened.
1:12:28I genuinely don't know the answer to that,
1:12:30but that might, you know,
1:12:31so like you're like, "Oh, what if I wake up
1:12:33and I have 2 million users?"
1:12:35It's like, "Well, how many people signed up?"
1:12:36You know, maybe you're okay now, I don't know.
1:12:39- It goes back to what we said before too
1:12:40about your business model.
1:12:42Like David launched WidgetSmith
1:12:43not knowing it was gonna be an enormous viral hit,
1:12:47but with $2 a month, $20 a year premium upsell in the app
1:12:52to get features that people were gonna want.
1:12:55Calibrated carefully,
1:12:56and I'm sure he learned a lot as he took that ride,
1:12:59but like he benefited
1:13:00from having an enormous amount of installs.
1:13:03He got to see how people were using it.
1:13:05He got to craft his app
1:13:06so that the premium features would have real reasons
1:13:10for you to buy them.
1:13:11And certainly his goal there
1:13:13is to make a pretty good average revenue per user,
1:13:16even though a bunch of people
1:13:17are just gonna use the free version.
1:13:19- As Nathan in the Discord is saying,
1:13:22if you are in these terms,
1:13:24all you need is a one euro a year subscription, right?
1:13:27Which I think a lot of people pay anyway,
1:13:30but look, my point of that is, right?
1:13:32Like if you are a developer
1:13:35and you like the sound of some of this stuff,
1:13:36you just have to prepare for this possibility,
1:13:40which is about having a business model.
1:13:44But if you don't wanna have a business model,
1:13:47don't do this, right?
1:13:49But there is, I think for a lot of people,
1:13:51there is more money to be made for your business
1:13:55outside of the app store potentially,
1:13:58on paper, on paper there is.
1:13:59- I would say if you're a developer of a small app
1:14:03that is already doing fine in the app store
1:14:06and you're under the 1 million threshold,
1:14:09so you're in the small business program,
1:14:11I would say it would not be impossible
1:14:14but it's gonna be a harder sell.
1:14:16- You just gotta look into it though, right?
1:14:17Like you have to work out what it could mean for you.
1:14:20- Everybody should do the math,
1:14:21but I'm just saying the reduced commission
1:14:24is not as great for the people under a million
1:14:25as it is for the people over a million.
1:14:27The people, the business is over a million,
1:14:29that's a substantial, you're going from 30 to 20,
1:14:33but going from 15 to 13 or whatever is not fantastic.
1:14:37And now presumably you're paying
1:14:40for all of your freemium installs
1:14:41if you're over a million, which we know,
1:14:44Pcalc Lite is, so like there are gonna be
1:14:46a lot of longstanding apps that are gonna pick up those.
1:14:48So you're gonna have to run the numbers.
1:14:49I think that there are gonna be a lot,
1:14:52a lot of developers who are gonna look at this and say,
1:14:56I am just gonna stay with the terms I've got
1:14:58because I'm comfortable and I'm just gonna stay
1:15:00in the app store and there's no opportunity here.
1:15:01Some will find opportunity here,
1:15:03but I do think it's gonna be more the big guns
1:15:08that are gonna be seeking the opportunity.
1:15:10And it is funny how Tim Sweeney of Epic posted on Twitter
1:15:15about how this was terrible and Apple is evil
1:15:18and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:15:19- There's nothing Apple can do with Tim.
1:15:21What I, I'll tell you what I love.
1:15:22- Well, just wait, just wait, just wait.
1:15:24What I'm saying is Tim Sweeney can say all of that.
1:15:26But what also happened?
1:15:28Epic posted, we're totally coming back in the EU
1:15:31with Fortnite, here we come, right?
1:15:33So it's like, yeah, I hear you, Tim, you still hate Apple,
1:15:37but your company is immediately going to take advantage
1:15:40of this deal, this bad deal that Apple is offering you.
1:15:44So you tell me.
1:15:46- What I love about Tim Sweeney is he's consistent.
1:15:49You know, like there is nothing they can do
1:15:52that he will be happy with.
1:15:53And you know what? - No.
1:15:54- I respect it.
1:15:55I respect it.
1:15:56Like he has an opinion and his opinion is complete freedom
1:16:00or it's criminal.
1:16:01And there are times where I agree with him
1:16:04because here's the thing, right?
1:16:07Why does the 10/17% commission exist on the App Store?
1:16:12Why does that still exist?
1:16:15If you want to be in the App Store,
1:16:17what are you paying Apple 10% for?
1:16:21If the core technology fee exists, Apple consider that,
1:16:25they consider 50 cents per customer per year
1:16:31to be their fee for you using iOS, right?
1:16:35- For using core technology, yes.
1:16:36I would say the App Store- - So what is the 10% for?
1:16:39What is the 17% for?
1:16:40- It's marketing.
1:16:41It is being- - Who markets you?
1:16:44- Apple. - Do they?
1:16:46- Yeah, well, yeah.
1:16:47So it's being in the App Store.
1:16:50It's being eligible for highlights and promotion
1:16:54and editorial pieces in the App Store.
1:16:57And it's, wait for this, Mike, 'cause I gotta say it,
1:17:00it's being in the EU's premier iOS marketplace,
1:17:05the App Store, and everything that comes from it
1:17:09because so many users are always
1:17:12just gonna use the App Store.
1:17:13And so by being in there, that is worth it to you.
1:17:18That's the argument.
1:17:19That's the argument.
1:17:20- Look, I think in 2024, the claim about its marketing,
1:17:25I just don't think it holds up.
1:17:28Like there may be 0.00001% of applications
1:17:33benefit from this, but they're all paying 10%.
1:17:37- Being in the search results is your number one reason
1:17:40you're in the App Store, and that is marketing of the sort.
1:17:42- Well, but these days, Jason, you have to pay
1:17:44to make sure you're gonna be at the top of the search.
1:17:46- Sure, that's true.
1:17:47You get to pay Apple in order to pay Apple.
1:17:48- This is what I'm saying.
1:17:49Like the terms of the deal has changed so significantly
1:17:52since the App Store was introduced.
1:17:53I'm not sure why they take a commission anymore.
1:17:56- We will see, well, because they want your money
1:17:58and they think that-
1:17:59- But like I don't know what grounds
1:18:01in which they can argue it.
1:18:02- Well, I just said it.
1:18:03So let me- - But I don't agree with it.
1:18:06- Okay, well, let me repeat it then.
1:18:08I think for a lot of apps, it's just better
1:18:10to be in the App Store and you're gonna have more app sales.
1:18:12And I'll say this, we're gonna find out.
1:18:16Because if some apps decide, if they decide
1:18:19that it's just way better to either be in the App Store
1:18:23and another marketplace or just not be
1:18:26in the App Store anymore and be in an alternate EU
1:18:28marketplace where they're gonna make more money
1:18:31and have more customers and whatever else,
1:18:34then I guess we'll have our answer.
1:18:36My guess is that lots of people don't wanna install
1:18:40app marketplaces, they're just gonna stay with the App Store
1:18:43and those developers are not gonna want
1:18:46to abandon being in the default.
1:18:49I think that the default is powerful enough.
1:18:51Now, if 10 or 17% is still too much
1:18:56and that they're better off being on the outside,
1:18:59then Apple will have been proven wrong.
1:19:01But to me, the power of the default is so great
1:19:04and they're not yet putting up a randomized list
1:19:08of marketplaces for you to use, right?
1:19:10It's the App Store by default and then you have
1:19:12to find another marketplace and install it.
1:19:14I think being in the default is probably worth 10%.
1:19:18- See, you actually started leaning into what I was gonna
1:19:20talk about next to kind of wrap this back around again.
1:19:22So I've been seeing lots of people and hearing lots
1:19:25of people really concerned that Chrome is gonna become
1:19:27the most popular web browser on the iPhone
1:19:30because people will be given the choice
1:19:31rather than Safari, right?
1:19:33They're like given the choice, they'll choose Chrome
1:19:36rather than Safari 'cause it's what they're used to.
1:19:38It's what they choose on their Mac,
1:19:40it's what they choose on their PC, they choose Chrome.
1:19:42And I've seen people being like,
1:19:43"Ah, well, this is what people choose, they choose Chrome."
1:19:46So Apple has to work to make them want Safari, right?
1:19:50Instead.
1:19:51So my point is that yeah, Apple has the premier default
1:19:56App Store place to get apps because they have been
1:20:01the only one and even now when there is the opportunity
1:20:05for there to be marketplaces, they have set the terms
1:20:10for the other marketplaces to be in their favor.
1:20:13So it's like, I agree with you, right?
1:20:14You are making, that is the point, right?
1:20:18That you will stay and pay your 10 or 17%
1:20:22because you wanna be in the main place,
1:20:26but Apple set that table for themselves.
1:20:30- Sure.
1:20:31- And so, and just at this point, I don't understand,
1:20:35like I just, why, well, I know why, no, look,
1:20:38I understand why, obviously I understand why.
1:20:41But in a, this is a business relationship
1:20:44between Apple and every developer,
1:20:46what do the developers actually get for giving Apple a cut
1:20:51of every transaction and then an additional one on top
1:20:57when they hit a million, you know?
1:20:58It's like, what is the deal?
1:21:00And then you look at things like the, you know,
1:21:02we haven't really spoken about this,
1:21:04but obviously I would assume most of the listeners
1:21:05are aware of it.
1:21:06So a lot of like hand wringing about how many apps
1:21:09are gonna be on the Vision Pro and how many developers
1:21:12are not bothering and, you know, I think John Gruber
1:21:17we spoke about earlier has been referencing the idea
1:21:19of like Apple is reaping what it's sown at this point
1:21:22because they have not engendered themselves to developers.
1:21:27They have not made it feel like an ongoing relationship.
1:21:32It has been an ongoing set of adapting rules
1:21:37and guidelines that people need to just accept
1:21:40they have no choice.
1:21:41And even when given a choice, most developers feel now
1:21:45like they actually can't even make the choice
1:21:49because they're worried that it won't work out
1:21:51for their businesses.
1:21:52- Yep, yep.
1:21:54What I would say about the competition in the marketplaces
1:21:57is if there is true competition,
1:21:58Apple gets the home field advantage, right?
1:22:01Which I think they should because they're the platform owner
1:22:04but I think it shouldn't be that they shut out
1:22:06everybody else.
1:22:07But in a scenario where people can choose different
1:22:09app marketplaces, which I agree that, I mean, Apple
1:22:14because of the poison pill, lots of things,
1:22:16Apple has stacked the deck here.
1:22:17I don't think that those marketplaces are gonna be successful
1:22:20except for very specific niches of product.
1:22:22But what I would say is if you were in an environment
1:22:24where there was true competition, then we would find out
1:22:27whether being in Apple's app store was worth it or not.
1:22:30But I think it's because the competition is limited
1:22:32and it's the default, it's probably worth it
1:22:34for most developers to be there regardless.
1:22:37But yes, in a true competition environment
1:22:39which is not strangely what the DMA is asking for
1:22:42or at least not how Apple has interpreted the DMA's rules,
1:22:46we're in a situation where we don't get to see Apple
1:22:51have to decide does it lower its commission
1:22:53in order to make itself more palatable for app developers.
1:22:58And look at the Mac App Store, it's not required
1:23:00and it's pretty quiet.
1:23:02There's stuff, there's a lot of stuff in the Mac App Store.
1:23:04There's also a lot of stuff that's not in the Mac App Store.
1:23:06And even with the Mac App Store being more expansive
1:23:09than it used to be and maybe being a place
1:23:11that some developers are like, it's worth it being in there
1:23:13because some people are gonna use the Mac App Store.
1:23:16It doesn't have the power that something like iOS does
1:23:19because of all of the limitations
1:23:21and the fact that there's no competition.
1:23:22Now, Safari, I wanna mention here too,
1:23:25because like if everybody starts using Chrome,
1:23:28is that a bad thing?
1:23:30Because they chose it.
1:23:31And that means that Apple has to compete
1:23:33on browser with Chrome.
1:23:35And if Chrome is better, shouldn't it win?
1:23:39If Chrome is better on iOS than Safari,
1:23:41and I hear people say, oh no, but Chrome is bad
1:23:43'cause it kills the battery.
1:23:44Hey, if it kills your battery on iOS
1:23:48like it does on a Mac laptop,
1:23:50don't you think people will notice and say,
1:23:52oh, I'm not gonna use Chrome
1:23:53'cause it kills my battery? - That will get out there
1:23:54pretty quick. - That's part
1:23:55of the competition.
1:23:56That's part of the competition of all of this is that.
1:24:00So again, I don't have,
1:24:03like I think Apple should welcome competition
1:24:07because I think it makes Apple, it keeps Apple honest.
1:24:11And Apple will always say, well, no, we're always just,
1:24:14our dedication to our users is the most important thing.
1:24:17That's what drives us.
1:24:18And like that is true to a certain point.
1:24:21But if Chrome is breathing down your neck on iOS
1:24:25and everybody in the EU is like, oh man,
1:24:27Chrome is so much better than Safari.
1:24:29Safari is really lagging behind in these areas.
1:24:32Do you not think people at Apple are gonna be like, oh no,
1:24:36we need to do better with Safari.
1:24:38It's natural, of course that's gonna happen
1:24:41'cause that's the magic of competition.
1:24:43- I wanna just state for the record,
1:24:46and believe it or not, I do believe that Apple
1:24:50deserves the right to earn money.
1:24:51I would have been happy, genuinely happy here
1:24:55if they would have chosen one or the other, right?
1:24:58Reduce the App Store commission
1:25:00or introduce the core technology fee, right?
1:25:03And just have one or the other.
1:25:05'Cause to me it would have felt like, great.
1:25:06They've made a concession.
1:25:08They are like holding their hands up to the fact
1:25:10that they have the entire market
1:25:13and they have all of the leverage and they're adjusting.
1:25:17Like, 'cause this is all I've wanted them to do
1:25:19for a long time is adjust.
1:25:21Like you set the terms so many years ago,
1:25:26it's over a decade, right?
1:25:29The App Store, yeah.
1:25:33- Yeah, oh yeah.
1:25:34- They set the terms all that time ago
1:25:36and then haven't really adjusted them,
1:25:40but the world has changed so significantly
1:25:42that adjustment I believe is necessary.
1:25:46But in the end, they've adjusted it,
1:25:50but adjusted it in such a way that it still kind of
1:25:54behooves most people to not move.
1:25:57It's like, it's not really a choice.
1:25:59If people feel like they don't have a choice.
1:26:01But I think that they deserve money.
1:26:03- Yeah, oh, I agree.
1:26:05And I think that that's part of Apple's strategy
1:26:08is to couch all of this in terms of access to marketing
1:26:12in the App Store, access to the platform that Apple puts.
1:26:15I mean, can we argue Apple spends a enormous amount of money
1:26:19maintaining and operating the operating system
1:26:21and all the APIs for developers and all the developer tools?
1:26:24And they're essentially free?
1:26:26So to say you've built an entire business
1:26:32like let's say Instagram, you've built an entire business
1:26:37on a free app download using our APIs.
1:26:40Is it wrong for Apple to say, you should probably pay us?
1:26:45I don't think it is.
1:26:47That said, the problem is over the years,
1:26:49Apple has often acted like what I've said before,
1:26:53'cause I am colored by their actions
1:26:57toward Mac world over the years.
1:26:59The feeling that they view themselves
1:27:04as the creator of value and that everybody else is a taker,
1:27:08a way of value and almost like a parasite.
1:27:11And I think that that is part of the attitude
1:27:13and has been all along.
1:27:15And both those things can be true.
1:27:17Apple could deserve to be compensated
1:27:21for access to their platform.
1:27:24At the same time though, the apps on the platform
1:27:27have made the platform.
1:27:29And Apple makes a huge amount of profit per iPhone sold.
1:27:34So Apple's already reaping, but viewed a certain way,
1:27:37Apple is already reaping the benefits
1:27:40of the work they put into their platform,
1:27:42which is they sell expensive phones
1:27:45that are very profitable and people buy them
1:27:47because of the apps that are on them.
1:27:49And that's the transaction.
1:27:51But we can debate it and say, okay, yes,
1:27:54but there should probably be an extra cut
1:27:56for the tools that make those apps,
1:27:58even though Apple's already making their money.
1:28:00Look, billionaires who have more money than God
1:28:04ask cash strapped cities and states to build stadiums
1:28:08for their baseball teams and their football teams.
1:28:11There are lots of examples where very wealthy,
1:28:14rich individuals or companies still want more money.
1:28:18That's why they got so rich.
1:28:20And so, okay, maybe Apple does deserve something
1:28:23from these businesses that are building huge businesses
1:28:26on Apple software platforms.
1:28:28But you're right, what is that?
1:28:30And what is fair?
1:28:32And what, I would say, what allows businesses to flourish,
1:28:36Apple to flourish and consumers to benefit,
1:28:39Apple's customers to benefit?
1:28:41That's part of the question here.
1:28:43And the danger of Apple taking this very,
1:28:47very careful approach to carving out exactly what the DMA
1:28:50makes them carve out and nothing more
1:28:52is that you end up with sometimes
1:28:54some very weird, distorted behavior.
1:28:56I'm not sure it's gonna fly.
1:28:58The idea that free to be, to sell your, not even to sell,
1:29:03to allow your free app to be downloaded
1:29:06in an alternative marketplace,
1:29:08if your free app has more than a million users,
1:29:13free app, no monetization at all, you owe Apple money.
1:29:18Because of the act of being in an external marketplace,
1:29:21you now owe Apple money for all of your users,
1:29:25even though you are still not making any money.
1:29:28- Yeah, that's wild.
1:29:29When you put it that way, that is so wild, right?
1:29:32- Right?
1:29:32- Yeah.
1:29:33- It's not, 'cause the rule is not,
1:29:35if you make money in this app,
1:29:39which I wonder sometimes if that should have been the rule,
1:29:41right, which is here's our rule,
1:29:43and it's not for free apps, it's not for all apps,
1:29:45it's for apps that make money.
1:29:48It's hard because it's like ads in Instagram make money,
1:29:53and they're not like in app sequences.
1:29:55So I don't know how you would carve them out.
1:29:57- Well, I mean, Jason, Apple these days
1:29:59are fine with ordering your books, so they could find a way.
1:30:02- Exactly, so that's what I would say
1:30:04is I'm a little surprised,
1:30:06because one of the things that this rule does is say,
1:30:08I am a developer of a thing that's based on open source,
1:30:12and I just love it, and I put it in the App Store,
1:30:14and I'm in the EU maybe, and like,
1:30:17oh, I like the alt store people, and I wanna be there too.
1:30:21This is just a utility, it's already in the App Store,
1:30:23it's approved by Apple, it's fine.
1:30:24But I wanna put it somewhere else.
1:30:27And then you say, oh, but I have 1.5 million active users
1:30:31in the EU of my free app that I just give away for fun.
1:30:36Apple basically has said, you can't have the freedom
1:30:39to give it away somewhere else,
1:30:41because we're gonna charge you,
1:30:43and this project is never, ever, ever gonna pay for it.
1:30:45I know that's an extreme example,
1:30:47but it strikes me as being one that goes to the heart of,
1:30:50like, this doesn't seem quite right.
1:30:52Not that Apple shouldn't find ways to make money,
1:30:54but that some of these aspects of these rules
1:30:58don't quite seem fair or right, morally,
1:31:03if not legally, right?
1:31:06So I don't know, I'm skeptical that these will stand for,
1:31:10even if they're allowed in March,
1:31:12I am skeptical that Apple,
1:31:15the danger of Apple sort of saying,
1:31:17ha ha, we followed the letter of the law,
1:31:19but nobody's gonna like it, is that if nobody likes it,
1:31:21and it makes no changes to the way that apps behave
1:31:24in the EU, they're gonna write DMA2,
1:31:28and they're gonna come for Apple again.
1:31:31That's the problem here, is that if nothing changes,
1:31:34then the regulators are not gonna be satisfied.
1:31:38- One can hope, I think.
1:31:41- We'll see, we'll see.
1:31:43I do think, and we mentioned this earlier,
1:31:45I just wanna reiterate,
1:31:48the act of Apple building all of this technology
1:31:52undercuts one of Apple's arguments,
1:31:54which is how dare you demand that we use our employees
1:31:59to build special features for you, 'cause here they are.
1:32:03And Apple must know, I mean,
1:32:05Apple knows that this won't be the last place
1:32:07where some aspect of this is gonna be made a rule,
1:32:10and so they're gonna do things
1:32:14based on this now going forward, that's fine.
1:32:16The other risk Apple has here, by the way,
1:32:18is that they've always said,
1:32:19once you allow this kind of unfettered access
1:32:22to the platform scams and-
1:32:24- Terrible things will happen.
1:32:25- And terrible things will happen.
1:32:27And if those don't happen in the EU,
1:32:30they can't make that argument anymore either.
1:32:33And I do foresee, first off,
1:32:35I foresee that Apple's marketing and PR group
1:32:37is going to spring on any example of bad actors
1:32:41in third-party marketplaces,
1:32:45because even if it means that Apple's own customers
1:32:47are gonna be harmed,
1:32:48they're also gonna wanna make it clear
1:32:50that this is an example that wouldn't have happened
1:32:51without the DMA.
1:32:52I think they will try to make hay with that.
1:32:54It's gonna be tough, but I think they're gonna try.
1:32:56But the reality is every other organization on the planet
1:33:00is looking at this and saying,
1:33:01oh, we could do that too.
1:33:04And now maybe they'll let the machine run in the EU
1:33:07for a while and see what the ramifications are,
1:33:09but it has just gotten so much easier
1:33:12for any regulatory body
1:33:17to demand things of Apple because of this.
1:33:21And so that may lead to some interesting places
1:33:24or nowhere at all, depending on what happens in the EU.
1:33:27But I can totally see other countries and regions saying,
1:33:32give us that, right?
1:33:35Do that like you did in Europe.
1:33:36We want that. - Thanks so much.
1:33:38- And writing their regulations or laws specifically
1:33:41to do that or to do that with a twist
1:33:43because they don't like this part of it or not.
1:33:46All of that is gonna happen.
1:33:47So I feel like this is only the beginning.
1:33:50We're not even at day one yet.
1:33:52This is only the beginning of this,
1:33:53but the next phase of all of this is gonna happen
1:33:57as we watch what happens in Europe,
1:33:58but also as everybody else who has the power
1:34:01to force Apple to do things in their markets
1:34:03watches what Apple does in Europe.
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1:36:40I,
1:36:44now for me, the DMA is in the rear view, right?
1:36:52- Okay. - We've spoken about this now.
1:36:55It will come back, but I wanna put that behind me
1:36:59because I want to focus on what I have been excited about
1:37:03and what I am excited about is Vision Pro this week.
1:37:08Vision Pro. - Let's do it.
1:37:09This is the week. - But I wanna hear from you
1:37:12'cause you got to try it again.
1:37:15- I did on Friday.
1:37:17I went down, you know, I went down to Apple Park
1:37:20as you do. - Swung by.
1:37:21Swung by. - Just did some power sliding.
1:37:23Yep, yeah, I did.
1:37:26I went to Apple Park, I parked under the visitor center,
1:37:29went across the street up to the Steve Jobs Theater
1:37:31and got another demo experience.
1:37:36Very similar, I would say, to our WWDC experience,
1:37:41but I would say more polished.
1:37:47Clearly it's gotten more polished.
1:37:51There was stuff that happened when we did it
1:37:53that was sort of like,
1:37:53"Here, we're gonna play a video for you now."
1:37:56And instead it was like, go to the TV app
1:37:59and go to the spatial and then tap on this video
1:38:02and play it and then use this control to make it immersive.
1:38:06So like there's UI for things that were more sort of wired up
1:38:10as demos before.
1:38:11I did, I found it funny that I have internalized
1:38:16some gestures that are not right over the last six months
1:38:21where I thought like, "Oh, what you do to move a window
1:38:24is you reach out with your hand and grab it."
1:38:26And that's not what it is.
1:38:27You look at the grab bar and then you just make
1:38:29the pinch gesture anywhere.
1:38:31And I was like, "Oh, right, this is actually less work
1:38:35than I remember it being."
1:38:36- Your eyes are doing all the work really, right?
1:38:38- Yeah, yeah.
1:38:39And I would say the challenge with any of these things
1:38:42and why I'm so looking forward to people
1:38:44who've spent time with this product outside
1:38:46and I imagine in the next day or two,
1:38:48we'll probably get a bunch of embargoed reviews.
1:38:50I do not have one, by the way.
1:38:51I will not be doing an embargoed review.
1:38:53I don't have a Vision Pro, just there's the canary.
1:38:56But I imagine once we start getting people
1:38:58who've gotten them under embargo,
1:39:01we will finally have some first impressions
1:39:03that are not based on the walkthrough.
1:39:06And it's not just that Apple is walking you through
1:39:08and controlling everything you see and do, it is that.
1:39:10But it's also that honestly,
1:39:12there's just a sensory overload.
1:39:14When you're in a thing that you've never been in before
1:39:16or haven't been in for six months,
1:39:17the first 10 or 15 minutes is just like,
1:39:20I can't apply any critical faculty to what I'm doing.
1:39:24I'm just trying, my brain's just trying to process
1:39:27what it's being sent.
1:39:28And it was only the last half of the demo
1:39:30where I started to have questions about,
1:39:32oh, this is an interesting interaction that they've chosen.
1:39:36Like I noticed only after about 15 minutes, I was like,
1:39:39oh, every time an app wants you to generate
1:39:44a 3D object in space or put you in a immersive space
1:39:49or anything like that, there's a button to enable it.
1:39:55And I had that moment where I thought,
1:39:56oh, this is interesting.
1:39:57They are asking, and I asked, and they said, yes,
1:40:01that one of the best practices of this thing is
1:40:03if you're gonna enter a very different kind of mode,
1:40:06like an immersive mode or generate an object,
1:40:09that it needs to be the user saying, let's do this now,
1:40:14rather than it just sort of happening.
1:40:16But I was, it took me 15 minutes into it
1:40:19before my brain was capable
1:40:21of sort of appreciating interface details
1:40:24just because it's so much.
1:40:25So I feel very strongly by the way,
1:40:28that although there will be some embargo reviews
1:40:31in the first few days, next few days,
1:40:34this thing is so huge that even if somebody's had it
1:40:38for a week-ish, maybe a little less than a week,
1:40:42do I think that those will be great first tests
1:40:47of first impressions, but I'll just say it now,
1:40:51nobody is gonna be able to do a complete comprehensive review
1:40:54of this thing in six days,
1:40:56even if they take all six days to use it.
1:41:00- The apps aren't even available yet.
1:41:02You can't even get the apps, right?
1:41:04- Exactly.
1:41:04- I'm sure that there's some you can,
1:41:06but like a lot of stuff that we're gonna find
1:41:08to be really cool and maybe interesting use,
1:41:10'cause they're not available yet.
1:41:12- Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm still,
1:41:13as we've been talking today, I've been getting notes.
1:41:15Obviously Apple has encouraged people
1:41:18to announce their Vision Pro apps today
1:41:20because I keep getting emails
1:41:21with more Vision Pro apps in them.
1:41:23But yeah, and it's more than anything else,
1:41:28it's also a new platform and a new interaction model.
1:41:30Like I think after, if you spend six days with it,
1:41:33and by the way, when you get a product and you review it,
1:41:34you don't actually spend six days with it.
1:41:36You spend some number of days with it,
1:41:38and then you also have to write your review
1:41:40and capture your video and do all those other things.
1:41:42I think those are all essentially gonna be first looks,
1:41:45first impressions.
1:41:46I think it's gonna take a long time,
1:41:48and there are so many different angles here
1:41:50that there will be much more to say about it
1:41:54from everybody involved.
1:41:55Don't take those first impressions as the be all end all.
1:41:59I think that there's a lot more to come
1:42:02because there's just so much there.
1:42:05I would be, if I had been given an embargo
1:42:08and told you've got five days with this,
1:42:10I would be grateful, and I would work very hard
1:42:13to do a first impressions piece about it.
1:42:15But do I think that if I had been given five days
1:42:18with the Vision Pro, I could write a thorough
1:42:20and complete review of the whole experience?
1:42:22I do not, 'cause I think it's too much for that.
1:42:25I think it's too many things.
1:42:27It's gonna take time.
1:42:28But I did appreciate seeing the latest state of the art.
1:42:32There are more apps.
1:42:33There are third-party apps.
1:42:35I was able to run, I ran DJ from Algorithm,
1:42:38which is always there at every new Apple platform
1:42:42that happens. - DJ Palace Lighter
1:42:43in the house.
1:42:44- Yeah, so yeah, well, it was really hilarious,
1:42:47me and competently DJing.
1:42:48But you pop out a 3D turntable.
1:42:51You press that button and a 3D turntable pops out
1:42:54and you stand at the turntable
1:42:55and you can actually use your hands to, what is it?
1:43:00It's not jogging, it's scratching.
1:43:03Is that what it is?
1:43:05When you take your hand on the record and go,
1:43:07"Vwoop, vwoop, vwoop, vwoop."
1:43:09- I'm choosing not to help you.
1:43:11- What's that called?
1:43:13- I'm enjoying this.
1:43:14Yeah, scratching is what you're looking for, yeah.
1:43:16- I don't know.
1:43:17Anyway, I did it.
1:43:19I did it.
1:43:20- You did it.
1:43:21- I did it, yeah, it was really good.
1:43:24I said, "Where's the middle-aged dad music
1:43:26"to choose from here?"
1:43:27And they said they don't have that there.
1:43:28- No tears for fears on these decks today?
1:43:30- I picked some beeps and boops
1:43:32and they were beepy and boopy and that's fine too.
1:43:34I like beeps and boops.
1:43:35- Yeah, I've been keeping an Apple Note of apps
1:43:37that I'm seeing online
1:43:39and I'm like, "These are the ones I wanna try."
1:43:43So I've just got a running list of stuff.
1:43:45DJ is one of them just because I think it's going to be,
1:43:49well, 'cause one, I know they've had a lot of access
1:43:51because they've been in press releases
1:43:53going all the way back to the beginning.
1:43:55So I expect it should be polished when it's released.
1:43:59It should be one of the more,
1:44:01but it also is one of the only apps
1:44:03that I've seen anybody talk about.
1:44:06So I was doing some interesting stuff
1:44:08to use hand tracking to interact with something
1:44:12that's not a video game.
1:44:14So I'm intrigued about it for that
1:44:16and I wanna try it out for that because I think--
1:44:19- It's got dials and stuff
1:44:20that you actually can grab and slide too,
1:44:22which again, will that be the right interface?
1:44:25Is it too skeuomorphic?
1:44:27I don't know, but it's an interesting experiment
1:44:30and that's why I found it fascinating.
1:44:32They had me watch the Super Mario Brothers movie clip
1:44:34as I mentioned before that they're using in the demos
1:44:36even though freaking Avatar is right there.
1:44:39We're like, "No, no."
1:44:40- Did Mario look good?
1:44:41- Listen to Chris Pratt going, "It looked fine."
1:44:44Chris Pratt was great in that movie.
1:44:45- Chris Pratt was great in that movie.
1:44:46He was great in that movie.
1:44:47- Whatever.
1:44:47- He was.
1:44:48People didn't like him, but he was great in that movie.
1:44:50- I have no interest in watching that movie,
1:44:52let me tell you.
1:44:53- It's me.
1:44:54- So yeah, he says that.
1:44:56He does a little, "Oh, what's that?"
1:44:59I'm like, "Oh no, no, no, no, thank you."
1:45:01Anyway, so I did watch that.
1:45:03The immersive video looks really great.
1:45:05Again, boy, I can't wait to see what they do with that.
1:45:09Those, I saw the clips, but those are all programs
1:45:13in the TV app.
1:45:14So like the Alicia Keys concert where she's singing to you
1:45:19and you're standing there awkwardly saying,
1:45:21"But I don't even know you, Alicia.
1:45:22Surely somebody more important is in this room.
1:45:25Perhaps you should talk to them."
1:45:27I should, can I step out of the room now?
1:45:29The whole thing is there and the sharks and the rhinos
1:45:34and like all, there are like programs with that stuff.
1:45:37So that'll be interesting to watch.
1:45:39There's a goal from above the bar,
1:45:43the crossbar of the soccer goal.
1:45:46- Did you get to see the Disney+ app?
1:45:50- I did.
1:45:51- Was it good? - I did.
1:45:53It's good.
1:45:54So they have their own immersive environments
1:45:58that are just in the Disney+ app.
1:46:00So like you can choose the scare floor, tattooing.
1:46:06You're actually like in Moss Icely among,
1:46:10it's almost like you're at the land speeder drive-in
1:46:12at Moss Icely is basically where you are.
1:46:15There's Avengers Tower that's got little,
1:46:18and they've dressed it up, you know,
1:46:21they've dressed it up like Disneyland.
1:46:22Like the Avengers Tower reminded me so much
1:46:25of the Avengers headquarters at our Avengers campus
1:46:29at California Adventure, because it's the same thing
1:46:31where it's like, it's a set essentially
1:46:33from the Avengers movies, but they've also placed
1:46:36in a very Disney way, little objects everywhere
1:46:40that are things referring to the Avengers and stuff, right?
1:46:45So those are in there and you can watch,
1:46:48and then they have a bunch of 3D content
1:46:51because a lot of their movies are in 3D.
1:46:53My understanding is that when you start to play something,
1:46:57I think in the TV app and in the Disney+ app,
1:47:01this may only be true in one of them,
1:47:03you basically are told there's a 3D version of this,
1:47:08do you want to watch that?
1:47:09And then you choose that, and then you're watching a 3D,
1:47:11if you want, movie at the edge of the Avengers Tower
1:47:16or on the scare floor for Monsters Inc.
1:47:20And then when you're in the TV app,
1:47:24Apple's immersive environments are available for that too.
1:47:27But the Disney+ app, yeah, I was impressed.
1:47:29It shows you the possibilities there.
1:47:31I think the only thing that I think is funny
1:47:34is that the environments, the Disney environments
1:47:38are only available in the Disney app.
1:47:39So you can't watch somebody else's movie
1:47:41on the scare floor, right?
1:47:42- Yeah, but you get that though, right?
1:47:43- That's not allowed.
1:47:44I do, I do, and I think it's okay.
1:47:45- Because also Apple said, right,
1:47:46that I hope that it changes in the future.
1:47:48I hope it's not like watch faces,
1:47:50that all the environments are theirs,
1:47:53that they're the only ones that you can mix and match
1:47:55apps and environments, it's Apple's environments.
1:47:57- Right, right, they're like system-wide environments
1:48:00versus app-specific environments.
1:48:01But anyway, Disney did app-specific environments,
1:48:04and I saw a couple of them, they were really good.
1:48:07- Which I think is great.
1:48:08I'm happy that Disney have done that,
1:48:10'cause I bet that's gonna be something
1:48:11that people are really excited about,
1:48:13and I hope that it encourages more companies.
1:48:16I mean, it's quote-unquote easy for Disney
1:48:18because they have like obvious things they can do.
1:48:20Like some companies are gonna struggle,
1:48:22like what is the thing we would put our app in?
1:48:25But there are lots of companies
1:48:27that could do a similar thing, right?
1:48:29Like insert your favorite franchise here, right?
1:48:34Like why could you not watch that?
1:48:36Why could you not watch Lord of the Rings
1:48:37sitting on the top of a hill in New Zealand?
1:48:41- Right, yeah, so you could also go to New Zealand
1:48:45with your iPhone and do that, by the way,
1:48:47but it would be more logistics.
1:48:49- It's quite, actually even more expensive
1:48:51than getting a vision pro. - More expensive
1:48:52than the vision pro.
1:48:53So the fourth item, there's a question in the Discord
1:48:55about will watching movies in immersive video
1:48:58fade away and appeal over time?
1:49:00Maybe, it is a novelty, but like the fourth Disney location
1:49:04is a theater, a movie theater.
1:49:07And what I found is on the Quest,
1:49:11they have lots of ridiculous things
1:49:13like you can watch in space and stuff.
1:49:15I like the movie theater.
1:49:17You're sitting in the best seat in the house
1:49:19in a movie theater, and then it's got interactive lighting.
1:49:23So like when the movie is bright,
1:49:25the light is on the seats, and when it's dark,
1:49:28there's not lights on the seats.
1:49:29It feels really realistic as being in the context
1:49:32of a movie theater.
1:49:33I am looking forward to testing
1:49:35the Disney movie theater experience and seeing how that is,
1:49:37because in the end, after you've had your fun
1:49:40at the Tatooine drive-in or the Tony Stark drive-in,
1:49:44it might be that the best thing
1:49:45is the really nice movie theater environment or nothing.
1:49:50But so I also, among the things
1:49:53that I think is more polished,
1:49:54although I can't decide how much of this is out,
1:49:56I think it's a little bit of both,
1:49:57how much of this is Apple and how much of this is the,
1:50:01well, it's all Apple.
1:50:02How much of it is Apple making some feature decisions
1:50:04and how much of it is Apple improving the product
1:50:08since it was in beta back in June?
1:50:11But the Safari demo where they say,
1:50:15"Oh, look at that crisp text and the readability,
1:50:17et cetera, et cetera."
1:50:19You remember that, right?
1:50:20- I did.
1:50:21- I think they've made the fonts bigger,
1:50:25which is probably good because if the fonts are bigger,
1:50:29everything is gonna look crisper in that way.
1:50:32I do think it was crisper though.
1:50:35I don't know for sure,
1:50:37'cause I can't compare exactly what I saw six months ago
1:50:39to now, or I guess seven months ago to now.
1:50:42- Well, here's a question I have for you.
1:50:43Do you feel like it fit you better than the first time?
1:50:46- Well, let me finish this thought
1:50:47and then I have some thoughts about that.
1:50:49So I think the text rendering though was crisper and clearer.
1:50:52I think that maybe one of the reasons
1:50:54that I've heard people say,
1:50:55"Oh yeah, I can read in it just fine."
1:50:57Where I felt kind of like it didn't,
1:50:59it wasn't, it was a little muddy back in June.
1:51:03Whatever has happened, it felt like the text was better.
1:51:07But I think that it was also larger,
1:51:09but I do think it was better.
1:51:11Fit is a huge one.
1:51:12So I think in the end,
1:51:14that knit band is gonna go down in history
1:51:17with like the digital touch on the Apple Watch.
1:51:20'Cause they had us all wear that knit band.
1:51:23And in June, you remember my report about that, right?
1:51:27Which is like, my face hurt, my head hurt.
1:51:29And I couldn't get comfortable.
1:51:30And I was trying it lower down on the back and higher up
1:51:33and I was cranking it tighter and cranking it looser
1:51:35and moving around on my front of my face
1:51:38and just trying to get it to work so that it didn't hurt.
1:51:42And I never did.
1:51:43It really was uncomfortable the entire time I used it.
1:51:46So this time they had me use the dual strap.
1:51:48They didn't even have me.
1:51:49The knit strap was just laying on the table.
1:51:52They had me use the dual strap.
1:51:53And when I put it on, they actually said,
1:51:55"Oh yeah, you can basically unvelcro it and move it
1:51:58until you get it and you can adjust it to go."
1:52:00Once I got that adjusted, it was fine the whole time.
1:52:05I had no issues whatsoever with comfort.
1:52:08So I don't know.
1:52:12- Well, something I wonder about
1:52:13is if you can combine the two.
1:52:15Like, can I use the knit strap with the top part?
1:52:18'Cause that's what we did at WWDC.
1:52:20It was a combo.
1:52:22- I, they didn't suggest that.
1:52:24They suggested that this is the strap.
1:52:26And I've heard through the grapevine
1:52:27that this is the snap you use for longer experiences.
1:52:30That it's harder to adjust and harder to get into,
1:52:33but it also is much better in terms of a proper fit
1:52:37than the other thing.
1:52:38Also, people are asking in the Discord
1:52:40about how it worked.
1:52:44It worked very, I brought my glasses,
1:52:47although actually I sent them a prescription in advance,
1:52:50my glasses prescription, which I had,
1:52:52'cause I made an order of one.
1:52:54And then they scanned my face there.
1:52:56And then they used that as setup.
1:52:58They used the, essentially the same app
1:53:01that they use for the store to scan my face for that.
1:53:05And then very nicely at the end, they said,
1:53:09"Can we save your personal data for your review unit?"
1:53:14And I said, "Sure."
1:53:17It was nice of them to ask, but they had,
1:53:20'cause this is the rare Apple product
1:53:21that requires exact measurements.
1:53:24So hopefully I will get a review unit at some point.
1:53:26Don't know when, but hopefully I will.
1:53:28- Do you know if the sizing matched what you had scanned?
1:53:32- That I do not know.
1:53:33They didn't tell me.
1:53:34So when I get a review unit, I will know the size of that.
1:53:38And I'll know if it matched the one that I ordered
1:53:40from the Apple store to come on Friday.
1:53:44So we'll see.
1:53:45But yeah, it felt, I used the dual strap
1:53:48and it felt really good.
1:53:49And it was vastly superior.
1:53:52Like I was comfortable wearing it.
1:53:54And I couldn't say that in June.
1:53:55Now back in June, I said, "Look, we couldn't get it right.
1:53:58The goal was to get through the demo.
1:54:00It was a very limited amount of time.
1:54:02I wasn't gonna push it.
1:54:03And I'm sure that I would figure out
1:54:05how to be more comfortable down the road."
1:54:08I'm happy to report that this demo,
1:54:10I didn't have any comfort problems at all.
1:54:12- I do wonder too, 'cause they specifically
1:54:15thought of WWDC that they didn't have
1:54:18that many light seals available,
1:54:20like the part that goes in the front of the face.
1:54:22And I wonder if like another component of it,
1:54:25as well as the straps, which I completely understand,
1:54:27we'll call the massive difference.
1:54:29But like, I wonder if maybe it fit better
1:54:31to your face this time than last time.
1:54:33We don't know the answer to that,
1:54:34but I could imagine that being something.
1:54:37- Also, I wanted to mention just a funny thing.
1:54:41They did the spatial video thing.
1:54:42So they showed a video, some of which were very familiar
1:54:45of a spatial video shot with Vision Pro.
1:54:48And then they showed a video shot with iPhone 15 Pro.
1:54:51And it made me laugh 'cause it's a mom and kids
1:54:54blowing bubbles on like a grassy area.
1:54:58And you know why they're blowing the bubbles,
1:55:00is 'cause the bubbles are in that foreground
1:55:02where you're gonna get a 3D effect.
1:55:04And the 3D effect is really limited on the iPhone
1:55:06because the distance between the two lenses
1:55:09isn't particularly great.
1:55:11But what made me laugh was very clearly somebody,
1:55:14or probably something, a bubble machine,
1:55:17had been placed just off camera to the right.
1:55:21Because while this scene with the kids was going on,
1:55:24a constant stream of bubbles was being emitted
1:55:27right in front of me.
1:55:28And I just laughed.
1:55:29And I actually said to the people in the room,
1:55:31the Apple PR people in the room with me,
1:55:33I said, "Does it come with a bubble maker off to the right?"
1:55:37And they just chuckled.
1:55:38But it's like, you know, 'cause I appreciate like
1:55:41a lot of the 3D effects, especially on the iPhone,
1:55:45are gonna be subtle because of all of the technical reasons.
1:55:48And I just, I appreciate that they're like,
1:55:50"Nope, we're gonna have a bubble machine."
1:55:52Or again, I don't know that for sure.
1:55:53Or a couple of interns frantically blowing bubbles,
1:55:57but there were a lot of bubbles coming from off screen,
1:56:00is all I'm saying, in order to give that extra effect.
1:56:04Extra, "So turn on the bubble machine."
1:56:07That's a very old reference.
1:56:08- I don't get it.
1:56:09I'm very excited for Friday.
1:56:13I don't truly know what to expect
1:56:16from having an extended period of time with this.
1:56:20Like, you know, what is it gonna be like
1:56:23when I'm in hour two?
1:56:25I don't know, but I'm excited about it.
1:56:28I'm excited about all of the apps that are gonna appear.
1:56:31I'm excited to watch an Avengers movie
1:56:34sitting in Avengers Tower.
1:56:36That's exciting to me.
1:56:38Yeah, we're on the verge of this thing.
1:56:43Whatever it's gonna end up being.
1:56:45- Whatever it is, yeah.
1:56:48- What is it gonna be like to prepare
1:56:50for next week's upgrade while wearing it?
1:56:52'Cause that will be my plan, right?
1:56:53I'll do all my show prep wearing it.
1:56:55- Sure.
1:56:56- What is that gonna feel like?
1:56:57How is that gonna be?
1:56:58Like, am I gonna use my Mac?
1:57:00How much am I gonna use my Mac?
1:57:01- Oh, I typed.
1:57:03- Oh. - I typed.
1:57:04- Okay.
1:57:05- I did hand typing,
1:57:07where you type with fingers on the keyboard.
1:57:09It's kind of dumb, but it works.
1:57:11I typed sixcolors.com.
1:57:12- How different is it to using like a virtual keyboard
1:57:15and an iPad, like a software keyboard and an iPad?
1:57:17Like, is it very, very different?
1:57:19- It's suspended in the air.
1:57:21I'd say it's much slower and it really is.
1:57:23I felt like it was a finger typing experience.
1:57:25However, they said you can also use,
1:57:27and this is a mind bending thing.
1:57:29You can I type.
1:57:31- Yeah, I don't think that's good for us.
1:57:32- Which is you look at a letter and pinch your fingers
1:57:34and look at a letter and pinch your fingers.
1:57:35I don't recommend that either.
1:57:36- Can you swipe type?
1:57:38- I don't think so.
1:57:39I didn't try, but I assume not.
1:57:41Maybe, I don't know.
1:57:42I have real doubts about the precision available
1:57:46on that keyboard.
1:57:47I think the answer is, and I did try this too.
1:57:51There is talk to type where there's also
1:57:53a little microphone icon that you can look at and tap.
1:57:57Actually, you don't even tap.
1:57:59You look at the microphone icon
1:58:00and then you say words and they come out.
1:58:02- That's cool.
1:58:04- Right, you don't even have to tap.
1:58:06That's smart because that's gonna be your best way
1:58:09to do short field text input is your voice.
1:58:13It's gonna be the easiest way to get that text out.
1:58:16- Just a couple of days away.
1:58:19- I know it's amazing.
1:58:23I don't even know what I'm gonna do with it.
1:58:29I feel like I don't have like a list of like,
1:58:31here are the 10 things to do when I put it together.
1:58:35I think I'm just gonna kind of feel my way around.
1:58:37I imagine I'll use the built-in apps.
1:58:40I will finally, all these nice people who put me
1:58:42on their test flights for the Vision OS apps,
1:58:44I'm like, finally, I'll actually be able to use that.
1:58:48'Cause I get the updates.
1:58:48It's like, oh, I did a new beta.
1:58:49I'm like, ah, I still don't have it.
1:58:51Third party apps.
1:58:54Then yeah, it's gonna be FaceTime calls and personas.
1:58:59- I'm looking forward to whoever I can persona call
1:59:01with first, right?
1:59:02Like this is gonna be a race.
1:59:04Who can I persona call with first?
1:59:06That's gonna be a train wreck in the lower form.
1:59:09- And I wanna try to use it with a Mac and see how that goes.
1:59:12- I'm looking forward to 3D movies too.
1:59:14I'm gonna give that a go.
1:59:16- Yeah, I was telling a friend who was visiting this weekend,
1:59:20I said, I'm gonna have to do some testing.
1:59:21And he's like, oh, like watch a whole 3D movie.
1:59:23I'm like, yeah, but for my work,
1:59:25I'm gonna have to watch a 3D movie for my work
1:59:27or at least portions of various 3D movies for my work.
1:59:30That's gonna be good.
1:59:31So should I ask?
1:59:34- I assume you've got a transatlantic flight coming up.
1:59:38- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:59:39I'm going to America,
1:59:39I'm picking one up on a Friday morning
1:59:42and then spending best part of the week.
1:59:46We're kind of turning it into a little bit of a vacation too.
1:59:49And so, 'cause I've got to make the trips
1:59:51and I'm gonna make the most of it.
1:59:52And also it's like one of those things where like,
1:59:53I wouldn't wanna pick it up on Friday.
1:59:55Then when am I gonna leave?
1:59:56'Cause I don't wanna leave and like arrive
1:59:58and then like mess up all my shows, right?
1:59:59'Cause I'm all weirded out and jet-glagged.
2:00:01'Cause it's a big week, right?
2:00:03Like recording all these shows, it's gonna be a big week.
2:00:06Like this is no matter what, as we said before,
2:00:09no matter what way this goes, it's big content for us.
2:00:12And so like, I wanna be on it and ready and raring to go.
2:00:15I'm very excited, very excited.
2:00:19And it's gonna be, and I'm preparing for headaches.
2:00:24You know?
2:00:25- Sure, yeah.
2:00:26- 'Cause I'm gonna overuse it.
2:00:28- Parasite them all.
2:00:29Like I will be using this over the first few days
2:00:33more than I assume I would use it on a regular day.
2:00:37That would be my assumption, but we'll figure it out.
2:00:39- I think that's probably right for both of us.
2:00:42That's true.
2:00:42Wow, this is weird.
2:00:43It's like we're holding hands
2:00:46and jumping into a new world together, right?
2:00:49Like this is the last upgrade of this era
2:00:51and then a new era begins of whatever it is.
2:00:54- Yeah.
2:00:55Like this is one of the reasons
2:00:57I'm so looking forward to this
2:00:59because I just don't feel like we've done this
2:01:02anything like this before.
2:01:03- No.
2:01:04- Right?
2:01:05This just isn't a thing that me and you have gone through
2:01:07in the history of our show nearly 500 episodes.
2:01:11- Yeah.
2:01:11- And like now we're like this thing's about to happen
2:01:13and we don't really know what to expect from it.
2:01:16And it's gonna change the trajectory of the show
2:01:17for an amount of time.
2:01:19- I have said to several people over the last week,
2:01:23this is why I got into this business
2:01:28is seeing what new things are
2:01:32before it's ready for everybody else,
2:01:36but getting that glimpse of the future,
2:01:37trying to understand it,
2:01:39trying to communicate what it is, what the issues are,
2:01:42but like the fundamentally the idea
2:01:44that you are seeing something that is
2:01:47at the edge of what we can make right now.
2:01:52And that might be telling us things
2:01:55about what the future is like.
2:01:57Even, you know, that is,
2:01:59I just think that's really exciting.
2:02:01- We'll be there and we'll be back next week
2:02:04where we will have our impressions.
2:02:06Very excited about that. - We will.
2:02:08I think, yes, we will, won't we?
2:02:10- Yep. - Wow.
2:02:12Just like that.
2:02:12- I'm sure that you'll be writing more
2:02:13at sixcolors.com over that time.
2:02:15- Sure, I'll be writing them all with one finger
2:02:18on a little funny keyboard.
2:02:21And I'll say for me, I'm gonna be planning to post like
2:02:24videos and photos and stuff probably on Instagram.
2:02:28I'm like I-M-Y-K-E of my whole vision quest
2:02:30that I'm gonna be going on to pick this thing up.
2:02:33You can find us on Mastodon.
2:02:35Jason is @jasonel on zeppelin.flights.
2:02:37I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E on mike.social.
2:02:41You can find video clips of the show
2:02:43on our Mastodon account.
2:02:44We are upgrade@relayfm.social.
2:02:46You can also watch clips of the show there
2:02:48and on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube,
2:02:51where we are @upgraderelay.
2:02:53If you would like longer ad-free versions of the show
2:02:55each and every week, go to getupgradeplus.com.
2:02:58This week, we're gonna talk about podcast transcriptions
2:03:01in 17.4 and how that makes us feel.
2:03:05Thanks to our sponsors for this week's episode.
2:03:07Thank you for listening.
2:03:10Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.
2:03:13- Once more into the breach, Mike.
2:03:15Once more, here we go.
2:03:17(upbeat music)
2:03:20(upbeat music)
2:03:22(upbeat music)