488: hot guy, incredible actor, hot dude


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   From Relay FM, this is Connected episode 488.

00:00:11   Today's episode is brought to you by ShipStation, NetSuite, and Ecamm.

00:00:16   My name is Mike Hurley, and I'm joined by Federico Vittucci.

00:00:20   Hello Mike, how are you?

00:00:23   I'm very good Federico, how are you?

00:00:24   Well, I'm also very good, and we're also joined by Mr. Steven Hackett, hello Steven.

00:00:30   Hello from the metaverse.

00:00:32   Oh!

00:00:33   Are you in the metaverse?

00:00:34   I got the wrong headset in the mail, there was some mix-up.

00:00:38   No one has legs!

00:00:41   Well, in the Vision Pro, nobody has anything other than shoulders,

00:00:46   and the occasional hand, so, you know, they're not doing much better.

00:00:50   That's about as much as you need.

00:00:52   You don't really need legs, you know, it's fine, you just, you know, shoulders, hands, that's it.

00:00:59   It's okay.

00:00:59   Heads, shoulders, knees, and toes.

00:01:01   Yeah, the song's a lot shorter in the Vision Pro, you know.

00:01:04   Yeah, I wanted to issue a follow-up today, because weirdly most of our follow-up is about

00:01:09   a thing we haven't spoken about yet, so I wanted to move it to the end of the show,

00:01:12   and we just begin by talking about the Vision Pro right now.

00:01:16   Okay.

00:01:16   Well, you guys can talk about the Vision Pro.

00:01:19   Yeah, can we get a status update?

00:01:20   Like, status update, where in the world is Federico's Vision Pro?

00:01:26   Right now, I'm living this sort of like Schrodinger's Vision Pro situation,

00:01:34   where my Vision Pro may or may not be in Ohio.

00:01:40   So, you may be asking about teaching, you bought it on Friday, yes.

00:01:45   But shipping turned out to be more complex than we anticipated.

00:01:49   Let me tell you the brief version.

00:01:51   When you declare the value of something that you want to ship from the United States to

00:01:56   be over $3,000, it opens a whole can of worms that, thankfully, we got to build a monument

00:02:03   for OTJ here.

00:02:05   He's been dealing with all these things with U.S. customs, and the whole process of shipping

00:02:13   an item with a value above $3,000, and all the documentation that we didn't know was

00:02:19   necessary.

00:02:21   So, Jon has been dealing with all that, multiple phone calls.

00:02:25   Oh, no.

00:02:25   He doesn't have to be on the phone?

00:02:27   Yeah, but he's uptight.

00:02:28   He's a boomer.

00:02:29   He likes phone calls.

00:02:30   No, he doesn't.

00:02:31   No, he doesn't.

00:02:32   That was Jon's choice.

00:02:33   They offered him a form on the phone, and he chose phone.

00:02:35   I don't want an online chat.

00:02:36   I want to speak to another human.

00:02:38   He doesn't.

00:02:39   He tried with email first, and the email didn't work.

00:02:43   And then he had to do multiple phone calls.

00:02:44   And another visit to the shipping center where he originally went to.

00:02:49   It was a whole thing.

00:02:50   And finally, finally, this morning, I woke up, and I saw an email saying, "Your package

00:02:58   has been processed at the Cincinnati Hub, and it's now leaving Cincinnati, Ohio."

00:03:05   But I still don't see what it is.

00:03:09   So, I'm guessing that the package is currently on a plane on its way to Germany, and then

00:03:14   from Germany, it'll find its way to Italy.

00:03:17   But there's an excellent sign that seems to, knock on wood and everything, suggest that

00:03:23   everything is going to be fine.

00:03:24   I have already paid my import taxes because I got an email saying, "These are your import

00:03:32   taxes.

00:03:32   Pay them."

00:03:34   I paid them.

00:03:35   I got a receipt, and it says, "Great.

00:03:37   You've paid your import taxes.

00:03:38   Your package is now proceeding to destination."

00:03:41   So, fingers crossed it'll be in Germany tonight, and hopefully, maybe even in Italy tomorrow.

00:03:47   I'm guessing that I'll get it by tomorrow or Friday.

00:03:51   So, I was supposed to get it on Tuesday.

00:03:54   I paid for an express worldwide delivery for Tuesday, but huge lesson learned here.

00:04:00   If you declare something up with a value of above $3,000 in the US, good luck.

00:04:06   Oh, I'm sorry.

00:04:08   It is.

00:04:09   Must be very stressful.

00:04:10   It's fine, but thank you OTJ for dealing with that volume of emails and phone calls and

00:04:19   documents.

00:04:19   Thank you for making that happen.

00:04:22   The things that man does, truly incredible.

00:04:25   It's true.

00:04:26   You know?

00:04:27   Yeah, he's just the best, you know?

00:04:30   Yeah, he is.

00:04:31   He is.

00:04:31   That's why he is the one true John.

00:04:34   That's why there are no others.

00:04:35   The one true John.

00:04:37   So, all this to say, I don't have a vision pro.

00:04:40   I am curious to learn how you guys have been using it.

00:04:43   I have a few questions.

00:04:44   I have a few doubts and I'm just here to take in the knowledge that you will cast upon me.

00:04:52   So, please shower me in knowledge today and your first impressions.

00:04:58   I've got to say, I'm actually today pretty keen to hear Steven's impressions because

00:05:06   I've spoken about an upgrade, right?

00:05:09   So, I think people have heard that and also like we've been chit-chatting as a group and

00:05:14   I feel like Steven has been quite reserved one way or another.

00:05:21   Like I genuinely do not know where you're standing on this right now.

00:05:26   Yeah.

00:05:26   And I'm actually, I'm excited about this, but before I do want to touch on one thing

00:05:32   before that if that's okay, which is just the store experience.

00:05:37   So, we both went and bought ours in stores, right?

00:05:40   Steven, you went to the store in Memphis.

00:05:42   I went here in Manhattan and I went to the Fifth Avenue store, which is where I met Tim Cook.

00:05:49   I'm happy to let everybody know that Tim is smaller than me.

00:05:53   I'm taller than Tim, which I did not expect obviously.

00:05:56   But does Tim Cook think he's taller than you?

00:05:59   100% he does.

00:06:01   Tim Cook does not have my problem, right?

00:06:04   Like he does not have that problem.

00:06:06   Tim Cook believes and is probably right to believe that he stands above everybody.

00:06:11   But in this one instance, I was...

00:06:12   But especially Mike Hurley.

00:06:14   Yeah, especially.

00:06:15   He actually said that.

00:06:16   He's like, "Oh, you're smaller than I thought," which was an interesting thing.

00:06:20   So tell me.

00:06:21   It was really weird of him to say that, but he did.

00:06:24   That's what he said.

00:06:25   Yeah, just kind of, kind of...

00:06:26   Can I ask you a question about meeting Tim Cook?

00:06:27   Yeah.

00:06:29   Does he sound as Southern in person as he does on recordings?

00:06:36   Yes.

00:06:36   And I think what actually...

00:06:37   It's actually accentuated in person because he is very gracious and humble.

00:06:43   Right?

00:06:44   So like that...

00:06:45   It feels like he has even more of a Southern vibe when talking directly with him than when he presents.

00:06:52   Oh, because they're very gracious and humble in the South?

00:06:55   I've found that to be the case.

00:06:58   Steven, I don't know if you...

00:06:59   Yeah, we're like super humble, y'all.

00:07:00   We're like the most humble people there are.

00:07:02   I don't know if it's just Steven and Steven's family who are humble.

00:07:05   I have met people in this, like, you know, it's like a Southern hospitality kind of idea, right?

00:07:11   Like that convention of like, it is typically believed to people from the South that like,

00:07:16   you know, they're, you know, come on in, you know, like that kind of idea.

00:07:21   I'm painting with a broad brush, you know?

00:07:24   Okay, okay.

00:07:25   Okay, I get it.

00:07:26   And he had that vibe.

00:07:31   So he was more like, I think, is that Gentile the word I'm trying to use here?

00:07:37   I think so, yeah.

00:07:38   Yeah, that was kind of the vibe.

00:07:40   It was pretty surreal.

00:07:42   It was a pretty surreal morning.

00:07:45   But I wanted, unless you guys want to know any more, anything more about Timmy.

00:07:50   How long was the interaction between you two?

00:07:52   At least a minute.

00:07:54   Okay.

00:07:55   There were three questions asked and answered.

00:08:00   I don't remember the third one.

00:08:02   Like, because at that point, my brain was just like, okay, I'm going to ask for a selfie now.

00:08:06   And like, I was just trying to like, get the courage up to ask for the selfie.

00:08:11   And like, the things that it was just like, you know, I said, oh, this is so awesome.

00:08:14   Congratulations.

00:08:15   It's a really exciting day or an exciting store.

00:08:17   It was a very like, surface level conversation, which was what I wanted to do, you know?

00:08:25   Maybe I should have gone in and said like, hey, Tim, tell me all about the core technology fee.

00:08:30   I guess I could have gone one way or another.

00:08:32   Just put a hand on his shoulder.

00:08:33   Look at him straight in the eye and be like, Tim, tell me, are you happy?

00:08:37   Wow.

00:08:39   What is your deepest fear?

00:08:42   And then that's the end.

00:08:45   Never again am I allowed to speak to anyone.

00:08:48   Yeah.

00:08:48   But obviously I'm happy for you.

00:08:50   That was such a great picture.

00:08:52   Great moment.

00:08:53   Well done.

00:08:53   Well done.

00:08:54   Worth the trip?

00:08:54   I was happy with the photo.

00:08:55   I bet.

00:08:56   Yeah.

00:08:57   I would say yes, it was definitely a kind of cherry on the top of this trip.

00:09:01   I just, I just realized the two of you have selfies with Tim Cook and I don't.

00:09:06   Now I got to get one.

00:09:07   I don't.

00:09:08   Federico, do you have a selfie with him?

00:09:10   Cause you have that really incredible photo.

00:09:12   Do you have a selfie too?

00:09:14   I have a selfie and a private conversation with Tim Cook.

00:09:16   Yes.

00:09:17   Yep.

00:09:18   So you're next, Steven.

00:09:21   I hope so.

00:09:22   Yeah.

00:09:23   You should just accost him when you see him next, you know?

00:09:25   Just like walk up to him and be like, Hey, you spoke to both my friends.

00:09:28   Why won't you speak to me?

00:09:29   I'm, I'm, I'm not saying the correlation is causation here, Steven, but, but, but I'm just

00:09:33   saying that of the three of us, the two people who do not collect old Macs are the ones who

00:09:39   were able to have a picture with Tim Cook.

00:09:41   Yep.

00:09:42   That's true.

00:09:43   Tim, Tim likes the future.

00:09:44   He doesn't want, he doesn't care about the past.

00:09:46   I'm just saying.

00:09:47   Or do you think it's his gate?

00:09:48   Do you think that's still following me around?

00:09:49   Yes.

00:09:50   Can you imagine that really quickly?

00:09:53   And he's just like, it's just like, you know, he just thinks that that sound back at you

00:09:57   and you're like, Oh no, he remembers.

00:09:59   He remembers.

00:10:00   But anyway, enough of Tim Cook.

00:10:03   Enough of Tim Cook.

00:10:04   The store experience was very interesting.

00:10:07   And I wanted to put a couple of links in the show notes to some work from Michael Stieber

00:10:14   and in his, he has a sub stack, right?

00:10:16   And he has a lot of imagery and kind of talking about the experience.

00:10:21   I did not do the try-on it was given to me as an option and I didn't want to do it.

00:10:25   It didn't, I didn't feel the need.

00:10:26   Especially because I'm here for a week.

00:10:29   If I had like fit issues, I would have come back.

00:10:31   I kind of wanted to just get in and get out of the store as fast as possible because it

00:10:34   was super busy, but I was pretty impressed by like the way some of the stuff looked like.

00:10:40   It seems like these big Apple stores now have these really beautiful seating areas for try-ons

00:10:44   and I could see people doing them.

00:10:46   But the main thing I want is like the Apple store employees are taking the Vision Pros

00:10:51   around with these little trays and I want one of these trays and Michael Stieber has an

00:10:55   image of it in his piece.

00:10:57   Like I don't know where to put this thing when I get home, you know, like where does

00:11:03   it go and like having one of these beautiful little wooden trays where it's like all fits

00:11:07   nicely that looks really good.

00:11:08   That's one reason I bought the travel case.

00:11:11   It's like I need a place to put this thing.

00:11:13   Case is great.

00:11:15   Okay, case.

00:11:16   Yeah, the case is awesome.

00:11:17   I did in-store pickup.

00:11:19   I did the try-on.

00:11:21   I did the demo.

00:11:22   The try-on was, you know, they did my face.

00:11:26   It was the same measurement that my iPhone had given me the week before.

00:11:29   So they brought one out with sort of my configuration.

00:11:34   They scanned my glasses so they could put Zeiss lenses in that matched my prescription.

00:11:38   And my wife, Mary, and I both did the demo and it was my first experience with it.

00:11:45   Y'all got to try it at WWDC.

00:11:47   I did not and probably because I collect old Macs.

00:11:50   And we're like, wait, is this headset?

00:11:53   Is it making a noise?

00:11:55   Cut that, Jim.

00:11:57   But.

00:11:58   So anyways, it was my first experience and it I now understand how y'all felt after WWDC

00:12:08   because you put this thing on and of course the demo is set up to be as sizzly as possible,

00:12:14   right?

00:12:14   They want it to make an impact.

00:12:17   And it definitely did.

00:12:19   It was really cool to go through that experience.

00:12:21   It's about half an hour.

00:12:21   The person at the Apple store I was paired with had an iPad mini so he could see what

00:12:26   I was seeing.

00:12:26   And it was really cool to go through the demo and I'm glad Mary did as well.

00:12:32   Always like her input on these things.

00:12:34   She thinks, and I quote, the technology is cool, but she doesn't like that it covers

00:12:39   people's eyes up, which I understand that's a big thing this product has to overcome.

00:12:44   Yeah.

00:12:46   I think it will.

00:12:48   I think it will, too, even though the eyes are weird.

00:12:50   What did you think about how it felt to wear?

00:12:53   I mean, it is heavy.

00:12:55   Like, you know, everyone has said that.

00:12:57   It took a little while during the demo just to get it kind of seated right on my face.

00:13:04   Like I had light around the bottom, but I eventually kind of realized I need to move

00:13:09   the strap like up a little bit on the back of my head and that kind of changes the way

00:13:13   it pulls.

00:13:14   Of course, the store demo is all the solo loop, the really nice one.

00:13:18   And the dual loop is like a dirty secret.

00:13:22   Apple stuffs in the bottom of the box when you get a vision pro.

00:13:25   It's like, don't worry about that one.

00:13:26   But I mean, it is the way it was noticeable pretty early on, but it's not uncomfortable,

00:13:34   but I've never and yesterday, actually, I used it for like 90 minutes and by far my

00:13:41   longest stretch and you never, I least never kind of forget that I'm wearing it.

00:13:45   Like it's always kind of ever present.

00:13:47   Yeah.

00:13:48   I mean, obviously you can't forget it because it's there.

00:13:51   But like for me, the weight tends to be a thing when I when I put it on, I notice it

00:13:56   and then it goes away for me over time.

00:13:58   One of the great things about long stretches, I've never been able to use any VR equipment

00:14:06   for more than an hour without feeling it in my eyes or my head.

00:14:10   Yeah.

00:14:10   If you felt that ever felt that way, Federico, do you get like eye strain from other stuff

00:14:15   that you've used, like from like quests and no, you've never had it?

00:14:19   No, no, I don't think so.

00:14:20   Okay.

00:14:20   I felt it in the past and especially if I was doing any trying to do like meetings,

00:14:25   work related stuff, I would get like an eye strain, but I've not had that at all with

00:14:29   the vision pro, which I've actually been very pleased about.

00:14:32   Like for what I've been able to recognize in myself, using it for extended periods of

00:14:38   time, the only thing is just like, if I just don't want it on my face anymore, it's not

00:14:43   like I feel like, oh, I'm getting a headache or my eyes are hurting, which I've definitely

00:14:46   had with the quest.

00:14:48   So that's actually been good and I expect it is because of the resolution of the screens.

00:14:53   And I will say in app, maybe in fairness to the quest, I've never used another product

00:14:59   with corrective lenses.

00:15:01   This is the first time I've used corrective lenses with a VR headset of any kind.

00:15:05   So that might be contributing to it.

00:15:07   I've spent most of my time with the dual loop, but I have started to try and use the solo

00:15:16   loop a little bit more too, because I kind of just like changed it out immediately, but

00:15:21   I want to get a better sense of using the solo loop too for also for longer periods.

00:15:26   Because I think it's okay.

00:15:28   I think it differs from person to person, but it's definitely a nicer experience to

00:15:33   put on and take off than the dual loop is where you kind of feel like you're strapping

00:15:38   yourself into the thing where the solo loop is way nicer.

00:15:42   And I just wish that there was a combo.

00:15:44   I just wish there was a combo version of that where I could put some kind of top strap on

00:15:48   the solo loop and I'm going to talk in this forever.

00:15:51   Yeah, I've seen a friend of the show Chaos T on Mastodon post a link to a third party

00:15:59   headband, like an additional top strap that you can use with the solo loop.

00:16:05   It was like designed for other headsets, but according to Chaos Picture, which you can

00:16:11   find somewhere on Mastodon, it works just fine with the solo loop.

00:16:14   And that's probably what I'm going to end up doing.

00:16:17   Like, you know, find a compatible top strap that I can use with the solo loop if the solo

00:16:24   loop turns out not to be enough for comfort in longer sessions.

00:16:29   Yeah, it is the most personalized and like specific product Apple's made.

00:16:35   Like basically every Apple Watch can fit basically every person, right?

00:16:39   You're going to have feelings about should I get the small one or the big one or I like

00:16:44   this kind of band material or I don't.

00:16:47   But this is a really different beast.

00:16:49   Like it really is customized to the best work with you.

00:16:54   And Mike, I'll agree with what you said about the eye strain.

00:16:59   It I really feel like working in 90 minutes and it just felt like I sat at my computer

00:17:04   for 90 minutes in a row, which I normally don't do.

00:17:06   I'm normally pretty good about getting up, getting something to drink, you know, checking

00:17:11   on the dog and cat.

00:17:12   Like I try not to just stare at my screen for hours at a time.

00:17:15   And the Vision Pro really felt in line with with that sort of usage.

00:17:22   And I'm also very happy to report because I was I was very nervous about this.

00:17:26   I know I shared it, I think on the show, but definitely shared it with you all that I was

00:17:30   really nervous about motion sickness.

00:17:31   I'm extremely sensitive to it and this product has given me no problems with it whatsoever.

00:17:39   OK, I have a question for you.

00:17:42   Have you watched any of the immersive video?

00:17:44   I have and even with that, I'm OK.

00:17:50   I would not want to get up and walk around with like 3D video playing, I don't think.

00:17:54   But even some of the like NASA JPL, they have an app where like you can put like the Mars

00:18:03   rover in your room and get up and walk around it and like look at pictures of it.

00:18:06   Even that is totally fine.

00:18:09   And so the was at 12 milliseconds of latency, I mean, all that real time processing they're

00:18:15   doing brings it below whatever threshold I'm sensitive to.

00:18:22   And I am so pleased about that.

00:18:23   I was I was genuinely worried that, oh, gosh, if this is the future, I am, you know, I got

00:18:28   to go move and live in the woods.

00:18:29   I think we were all worried about that for you, right?

00:18:32   Because like that if that was the case, that's not awesome.

00:18:36   Now for your I mean, Tim Cook would hate you even more because you'd just be going further

00:18:39   and further into the past.

00:18:41   I know, you know, it doesn't have motion sickness, you know, a PowerBook 180.

00:18:47   Good point.

00:18:48   Good point.

00:18:49   I actually use it in a car, I guess.

00:18:51   Then you might get a lot of battery life.

00:18:54   That's that's well, you don't get a lot of battery life with this thing either.

00:18:56   So that's OK, because I watched.

00:18:59   So they have a bunch of the immersive video stuff, right?

00:19:01   And a lot of it I I've just like dipped in and out.

00:19:05   And there's like a one about dinosaurs.

00:19:08   And it's like, you know, they've made these like CGI dinosaur kind of things.

00:19:12   And the video kind of starts off and it looks like one of those Apple screen savers where

00:19:17   you're kind of like flying towards this island.

00:19:20   And I started playing it and I was like, oh, I don't think that feels very good.

00:19:24   And I just stopped it.

00:19:25   I was like, I'm going to give that a break for a bit and I'm going to try that again.

00:19:29   I've never experienced motion sickness, so I don't know what it feels like.

00:19:32   But I was just like, it's making me feel a little bit unsettled.

00:19:35   It's like, I'll come back to that later on because I was getting ready to record a show.

00:19:38   It's like, I don't want to be like, I would deal with you later.

00:19:42   Yeah.

00:19:42   So I don't know.

00:19:44   I'm going to try more of that out, too.

00:19:45   But I'm genuinely super happy to hear that it hasn't caused you any nausea.

00:19:49   Yeah.

00:19:51   Yeah.

00:19:52   I mean, I think that they they clearly prioritized comfort, both in the physicality of the product

00:20:00   minus the weight and the the experience of of this user interface.

00:20:06   And there's lots of little.

00:20:07   Touches in the OS that make it feel more grounded.

00:20:15   And I think that the simplest example I can come up with

00:20:18   is that Windows put a shadow in your real world environments.

00:20:23   And there's something about that.

00:20:24   I immediately noticed it.

00:20:26   And there's something about it that makes the windows feel planted and more real.

00:20:32   And I think that helps.

00:20:34   I think that helps with like, OK, this is actually an object in my brain, kind of buys

00:20:38   it as an object.

00:20:39   Shadows, man, they're the future.

00:20:43   You sound skeptical.

00:20:44   You sound skeptical, Mike.

00:20:45   You're like, no, no, no.

00:20:47   I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense to me of like that.

00:20:50   You know, this is all in your brain, right?

00:20:52   And so if your brain is more willing to believe that what you're seeing is real, then it's

00:20:59   not going to freak you out as much that it isn't real, you know?

00:21:03   And so so that it makes a lot of sense to me.

00:21:08   Steven, what do you think of the eye tracking as interface?

00:21:11   I think it's super interesting.

00:21:15   I will say I think it is much better with keyboard and mouse.

00:21:21   The eye tracking works.

00:21:23   I can look at a thing and it registers.

00:21:26   But I think particularly in iPad apps or in compatibility mode, some of that UI is really

00:21:33   small.

00:21:33   Like I was I had calendar open yesterday looking at some events that my wife put on the calendar

00:21:43   and I was going to delete something that I knew weren't doing anymore.

00:21:46   So I looked at it and selected it.

00:21:48   And then you get the little like iOS pop up like copy, move, delete.

00:21:52   I was like, those are tiny targets and I really want to make sure I hit the right one.

00:21:57   So it works and I don't find it that tiring.

00:22:01   But also, I think it is much better with a keyboard and trackpad.

00:22:05   Yeah, I've found the iPad apps to be the heart.

00:22:10   The majority of issues I have had with eye tracking have been when I'm using compatible

00:22:14   iPad apps because I've found a lot of times like I'm trying to look at a button and it's

00:22:20   just not showing me the right one.

00:22:22   And that is not a problem I've had with native apps.

00:22:25   And I wonder if maybe there is just like a scale of buttons and interface elements that

00:22:32   are different.

00:22:33   But like I was trying to do something in Spark.

00:22:35   I was trying to reply to a message and I just no matter what I did, I could not select the

00:22:40   reply button.

00:22:40   It's a catalyst all over again.

00:22:43   Oh yeah, the scaling.

00:22:45   I think it's part of that, like genuinely.

00:22:49   Actually, I think it is too.

00:22:50   You can make targets so specific when they're on a touchscreen or designed for a cursor.

00:22:55   I do kind of wonder like, will compatibility apps get a tweak?

00:23:00   Because Mac Catalyst apps got a tweak, right?

00:23:01   Originally, there was a scaling issue and they fixed it.

00:23:04   So we will see how that goes, I guess.

00:23:07   And I could also imagine maybe some developers would make some changes to their apps to kind

00:23:11   of maybe, you know, like if the difference is you just space these icons out a little

00:23:15   bit more, like it's not going to hurt, right?

00:23:17   Like given on the iPad, if like there's a little space between the reply button and

00:23:21   the forward button, like it's not going to be the worst thing in the world.

00:23:24   I have a question for both of you.

00:23:26   Yeah.

00:23:26   So we've seen, we've tried our fair share of apps in compatibility mode throughout the

00:23:34   course of multiple years, from Rosetta apps on the Mac to iPhone apps on the iPad to iPad

00:23:44   apps on the Mac with Catalyst and now iPad apps on a Vision Pro.

00:23:49   Are these the best compatible apps that you guys have tried so far?

00:23:57   Like if you were to do a tier list of compatible apps through the years, are these the best

00:24:03   ones?

00:24:04   Okay.

00:24:05   So let me actually try and think through these, right?

00:24:07   So iPhone apps on iPad, way better than that.

00:24:10   Yeah.

00:24:11   Okay.

00:24:11   You use Rosetta, like that's the best, right?

00:24:16   Because that, and like Rosetta 2 even better, because it's really, the app is the same,

00:24:22   right?

00:24:22   And so like as a user, it doesn't really affect you so much.

00:24:25   It's complicated.

00:24:28   Like Catalyst apps work about as well as this, I think.

00:24:35   With the Kavi app that sometimes, I would say they're very close to each other.

00:24:41   What I would say is for, in its class, right?

00:24:44   Really the comparison is iPhone apps on iPad, right?

00:24:47   Like that's kind of actually the comparison.

00:24:49   This is significantly better than that because these apps, they fit in and it's fine.

00:24:56   Like, and they work.

00:24:58   I would say I'm happy.

00:24:59   Like I'm happy with the fact that there are some apps that I have on my vision pro.

00:25:04   They're maybe not the best examples of them, but they're there, right?

00:25:08   Like if I couldn't have gotten Spark, I would have been really upset about it.

00:25:12   Like I am furious that there is no Dropbox app.

00:25:15   I am so angry about this.

00:25:18   I have a follow-up question.

00:25:20   So if an iPad app on the iPad supports multiple windows, can you open

00:25:26   multiple iPad windows in VisionOS?

00:25:29   I've not tried this.

00:25:30   See, this is such a Federico thing.

00:25:32   I don't even know if what apps I use have multiple windows.

00:25:35   I forgot about that as a thing a long time ago.

00:25:39   So here's the thing.

00:25:41   So as an experiment, I've been thinking about obviously getting a vision pro.

00:25:47   This is actually a thing that I wrote in the Mon3log that we're sending out.

00:25:53   So I've been using the Mac more because in my mind, I think the vision pro will replace

00:25:59   the iPad pro for me, right?

00:26:01   So if that's going to become a main computer and I'm going to stop using the iPad, I'm

00:26:05   going to have a Mac nearby more often than before, but I'm still going to miss like a

00:26:11   tablet device for like reading in bed or like watching YouTube and stuff.

00:26:16   And so long story short, I set up my iPad mini again.

00:26:19   So like, hey, let me play with the iPad mini.

00:26:21   It's been a few months.

00:26:23   And obviously the iPad mini doesn't have stage manager.

00:26:25   It's got split view.

00:26:26   Just how much better the multi window UI is on split view mode compared to stage manager.

00:26:36   If you recall the shelf, what Apple calls the shelf UI in split view mode, when you

00:26:44   open a window in split view and if that window has multiple windows open, you got a little

00:26:50   tray at the bottom and it shows you the windows that you have open for that app and the titles

00:26:56   of those windows.

00:26:57   Like that's a cool multi window UI.

00:27:00   Too bad that they absolutely botched it with stage manager.

00:27:03   But yeah, so that's why I've been thinking about multiple iPad windows because I've been

00:27:07   trying the iPad mini again.

00:27:08   But you don't know the answer.

00:27:10   So yeah, I mean, I'd be honest with you, Federico, I forgot that it existed.

00:27:14   I never really liked multi window support in iPad OS.

00:27:18   Yeah, I use it exactly one time a month where I have this this monthly meeting and they

00:27:25   send out a PDF of the docket for the meeting and I store that in an Apple note.

00:27:31   Like I keep one for each month and then I take my notes beneath it.

00:27:35   And so I do two windows on my iPad Pro, one with the PDF and notes with like its fancy

00:27:41   preview thing and then one of the same note.

00:27:45   But scroll down where I'm editing and that's the only time I use it.

00:27:49   And once a month I'm like, how do I do this?

00:27:52   Like, how do I make a new note window?

00:27:54   Because I never remember.

00:27:55   I think for me it was just one of these things where there's not enough app support in it.

00:28:00   So I never got used to using it.

00:28:02   And so then if I'm kind of this way, if I don't use something enough, I just forget

00:28:07   that it's like that.

00:28:08   It's there.

00:28:09   Yeah.

00:28:09   And I mean, let's face it, even even with split view, there's there's no it's not a particularly

00:28:14   great design.

00:28:15   Like there's no indicator or anything that tells you, hey, this app has multiple windows

00:28:20   open like on the Mac you got expose, you got a bunch of different ways.

00:28:24   You got a button that says, show me all the windows.

00:28:26   And on iPad you have like a like a mini version of that that doesn't work as well.

00:28:31   But still, if you're working with multiple windows, I think split view makes for a nicer

00:28:37   experience than stage manager, which is ironic, given how stage manager's whole premise is

00:28:42   to work better with multiple windows.

00:28:45   It's confusing and exhausting.

00:28:46   I'm sorry.

00:28:47   Please continue.

00:28:48   I'm happy we're talking about the iPad right now, actually, because it can bring me to,

00:28:52   I think, my biggest take so far with the Vision Pro, which is content consumption versus content

00:28:59   creation.

00:29:00   Right.

00:29:01   Oh, no, you're one of them.

00:29:01   Always the thing with the iPad.

00:29:03   No, but it's always been the thing, right?

00:29:05   Like what kind of device is this?

00:29:06   Is this a content consumption device or content creation device?

00:29:09   I think that the Vision Pro, it is both, but depending on how you're using it.

00:29:15   Like if you're using eye tracking and just your hands, this is content consumption mode,

00:29:21   right?

00:29:21   Like you're watching something, you're doing something because it's light stuff.

00:29:25   Like it's hard.

00:29:26   It's possible to type in text, but it's not easy, right?

00:29:29   Like you're not going to want to write something this way.

00:29:32   You maybe want to send the occasional message this way.

00:29:35   You use it to search for something.

00:29:36   Like it's simple stuff, right?

00:29:38   That is when you're in consumption mode.

00:29:40   But the great thing about the Vision Pro is then you can attach a keyboard and a trackpad

00:29:44   in full creation mode.

00:29:45   You can even bring your Mac into the environment.

00:29:48   Like I feel like this device has both.

00:29:51   It just depends on how you're using it.

00:29:53   Like if you're using a keyboard and a mouse, it's great.

00:29:56   I think a keyboard is basically essential for the use of the Vision Pro.

00:30:00   And I've been mostly using a keyboard and eye tracking and like gestures to control

00:30:05   a lot of stuff.

00:30:06   And that's been really great.

00:30:08   But you can use it without one, but then you're going to be doing more light stuff, I think,

00:30:13   rather than trying to get any work done because it's much more complicated to do when the

00:30:19   keyboard is what it is.

00:30:21   I feel like the thing, Federico, that you've talked about for so long, that the iPad is

00:30:27   a modular computer and you can have this like thin and light tablet and walk around your

00:30:32   house, or you can have a keyboard and trackpad and have it at a desk, hook it up to a display.

00:30:38   Apple Vision Pro takes all of that and just like cranks it to 11.

00:30:43   It is a really different product when you do or don't have a keyboard and trackpad.

00:30:50   And I've got mine together in the 12 South, the Magic, was it Magic Bridge is what they

00:30:53   call it?

00:30:54   Yes.

00:30:54   Yeah, I'm wondering one of those when I get home.

00:30:56   Yeah.

00:30:56   It's just like you can just sit on your couch and have that on your lap and look around.

00:31:00   Even though I've spent a lot of time with mine, I have not installed my computer.

00:31:07   To do app todoist.

00:31:08   My email accounts are set up, but I looked at email one time.

00:31:13   Like I actually think there's something to be said, like what if that what if this is

00:31:19   a device for me the way that I use it where I don't have all my productivity stuff on

00:31:23   it?

00:31:23   Like what if it is?

00:31:24   A lighter, more consumption based computer, and that's fine.

00:31:31   Like the thing that's stupid about that argument is that it's not like one is good and one

00:31:37   is bad.

00:31:38   They're just different, right?

00:31:40   Even on Mac power users that comes out on Sunday, we really debated and planning of

00:31:45   like do we talk about it as an entertainment device first and productivity second or the

00:31:49   other way around?

00:31:50   We end up doing entertainment first.

00:31:51   I guess spoilers for Sunday, but I think that's OK.

00:31:56   I think it's OK if you don't push it as hard as you push a Mac, let alone an iPad.

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00:34:28   What is your favorite environment?

00:34:32   Going to the moon, baby.

00:34:34   Yeah, I thought it would be.

00:34:36   Do you like it because it's the moon, or do you like it

00:34:41   irrespective of that?

00:34:42   You know what I mean?

00:34:42   Like, you just want it to be there because it's the moon?

00:34:45   I mean, it is cool that it's the moon, but I like that it's monochrome, right?

00:34:49   There's really no color on the moon.

00:34:50   It's basically just various shades of gray and silver.

00:34:52   So I like that it's kind of like a muted backdrop for my apps,

00:34:57   but I haven't found, honestly, I haven't found one that I don't like.

00:35:01   Like, I think they're all cool.

00:35:03   I have questions about why a couple of them are labeled as coming soon.

00:35:06   Like, were they not done?

00:35:08   If they weren't not done, why are they in there?

00:35:10   It's very confusing.

00:35:11   Yeah, I bet that wasn't supposed to be in there.

00:35:14   But yeah, I hope that I hope a couple of things for environments.

00:35:20   First of all, that I hope that Apple adds them over time,

00:35:23   like they do the Apple TV screensavers, right?

00:35:25   But secondly, I really want third parties to be able to donate environments to the system.

00:35:34   If you go to Disney Plus, there are, I think they have four environments in there right now.

00:35:38   There's like the Disney Theater, there's Tatooine,

00:35:41   where you're like sitting in a speeder, which is really cool.

00:35:43   I wish that I could have the option at least to bring those environments to the whole system.

00:35:49   Right now, those are just within the application that supplies them.

00:35:52   Maybe that's like asking for third party watch faces, but I hope it's not.

00:35:56   I hope that they, to select partners, I don't expect them to have app store apps

00:36:02   that can do environments, although that could be interesting.

00:36:04   That should 100% be the case.

00:36:06   Like if you are a developer that makes an environment,

00:36:09   I believe you should be able to offer it up to the system,

00:36:12   and then you should just be able to use it wherever you want.

00:36:15   It'd be cool.

00:36:15   It would be really cool.

00:36:16   Why not?

00:36:16   It's just like a desktop background, right?

00:36:19   I know what you mean about the watch face thing,

00:36:22   but Apple doesn't encourage people to make watch faces in their apps.

00:36:25   I actually think that they actively discourage that,

00:36:28   where they have built a system for people to be able to make 3D environments

00:36:32   inside of their applications.

00:36:33   It seems like they're encouraging it and promoting it.

00:36:37   I think they just promote it that the max one is going to get a Game of Thrones throne room

00:36:41   for when House of the Dragon comes back or whatever, right?

00:36:44   And the Disney ones are just incredible.

00:36:49   They're incredible.

00:36:50   So I want to be able to sit in podcasts while sitting in Avengers Tower.

00:36:55   I want to be able to do that.

00:36:56   Why can't I do that?

00:36:57   That one is really cool.

00:36:59   The Disney+ team really killed it with those.

00:37:02   Yeah, they crushed it.

00:37:04   I do have a little bit of an issue with the

00:37:07   way environments interact with the if you're using a physical keyboard.

00:37:12   So with the digital crown, if you turn it, you get two options in your display.

00:37:17   You can change your immersiveness level.

00:37:19   Or if you look at the volume control, it becomes the volume control,

00:37:22   which I think is super smart.

00:37:23   Like, yeah, like bring those two things together.

00:37:26   But the environment, if you crank it to 100,

00:37:32   include everything, including the physical keyboard.

00:37:35   And I think that might be a mistake.

00:37:38   And they know where the keyboard is because if you're using a physical keyboard,

00:37:42   it puts a virtual quick type, quick type bar above it, which is super cool.

00:37:48   And like the best is like merging the physical and digital.

00:37:51   I think honestly, I think the best example across the whole OS

00:37:55   is the quick type bar above my physical keyboard.

00:37:59   But I would like to be able to see my keyboard all the time.

00:38:03   And so the way that I'm doing it is I'm dialing the environment to about 60%,

00:38:07   where it's basically a backdrop for my apps.

00:38:10   But I can still see my lap and, you know, my peripheral vision.

00:38:13   What of it is there is my real world.

00:38:16   And that's fine.

00:38:17   But I would like them to revisit that because I do think seeing your keyboard

00:38:22   is an important thing basically all the time.

00:38:24   I'm kind of really surprised they didn't do it.

00:38:29   It seems like an obvious one.

00:38:30   So on the Quest, you can draw a space.

00:38:34   And you draw out a space on a desk and be like, show me all of this,

00:38:39   which I would also like Apple to do because keyboards are great.

00:38:42   But what if I want to take physical notes?

00:38:44   It would be good to be able to say,

00:38:47   when I'm in this environment, just cut out this area.

00:38:50   Oh, like a sidekick notepad section.

00:38:53   Yeah, sure.

00:38:54   Why not?

00:38:54   Just the name of a product.

00:38:56   Look, Apple, if you want to do an exclusive deal, you know,

00:38:59   I mean, I know a guy, right?

00:39:01   If you just want to bring the sidekick notepad into the vision,

00:39:04   that's totally fine by me.

00:39:06   I do like that there is the option to do the kind of 60%, 70% thing.

00:39:10   And you can see everything that's in front of you and behind you.

00:39:12   So being able to...

00:39:14   That dialing in and out of environments,

00:39:17   I was hearing some people say,

00:39:19   why did they even bother putting the crown on it?

00:39:21   This is why the crown's on it.

00:39:23   That is a really, really cool and important part of this experience, I think,

00:39:28   where you can just do like, basically just in front of you,

00:39:31   and you can see everything else around you,

00:39:33   or you can bring it further and further around you.

00:39:35   I've come to really, really value that.

00:39:38   And actually the majority of time, if I'm doing any work,

00:39:42   then I will be sitting in an environment while I'm doing it,

00:39:44   because it also makes more sense to my brain for window management.

00:39:48   Putting a window far away, they shrink, right?

00:39:52   Which is really cool, so you can kind of tell it's far away.

00:39:55   But if there's an actual wall in front of me,

00:39:58   it looks like the window's just getting smaller rather than going far away.

00:40:01   But if they're in an environment,

00:40:04   then it actually looks like it's going far away, which I prefer.

00:40:07   And also those environments are such high quality.

00:40:12   The subtle movement and sound that is emitted from them,

00:40:17   especially the more that you dial it in, I think it's amazing.

00:40:20   My favorite is Haleakala, which is a mountain in Hawaii.

00:40:23   It's amazing.

00:40:25   And I found myself at one point, I was making some notes and stuff,

00:40:29   and I was just sat and thinking, and I was looking out over the clouds,

00:40:34   and I was like, "Oh, that's a different experience than usually how I would use a computer."

00:40:38   I felt like I could just sit and think and stare off into the distance,

00:40:42   and it was pleasant.

00:40:43   And that was really nice, and is abnormal to how I would normally sit and think.

00:40:51   Because it kind of sets you in a different mind space.

00:40:54   - Yeah.

00:40:55   So yeah.

00:40:56   - The last thing I will say for environments,

00:41:00   in addition to giving third parties access to have them,

00:41:05   I think it would be neat to have a customizable one

00:41:08   where I could set a panoramic photo as the background.

00:41:12   And they'd probably have to do some generative AI stuff to make it fully immersive.

00:41:17   But we all have one, right?

00:41:22   Everyone who's ever been to California has a panoramic photo of the San Francisco Bay.

00:41:27   Everyone just does it.

00:41:28   We can all accept it.

00:41:29   I think they even showed it when they introduced panoramic photos to the iPhone.

00:41:33   I have some panoramic photos I'm really happy with.

00:41:37   I've got a bunch from my trip to Colorado a couple years ago with my wife.

00:41:40   It would be cool to be able to set those as a backdrop as well somehow.

00:41:44   And you can kind of fake it with the photo window,

00:41:46   but then things get really weird really quickly.

00:41:48   But more customization to environments I think is only a win for everybody.

00:41:54   - Are these new watch faces?

00:41:56   - Probably.

00:41:57   But I hope that they do more than that.

00:42:01   Actually, just look, I do have a panorama of the Bay.

00:42:04   - Everyone does.

00:42:05   - Like at the Golden Gate Bridge.

00:42:06   - It's the U2 album of panoramic photos.

00:42:10   - They put one on there if you don't have one of your own.

00:42:12   I would say it's an interesting idea.

00:42:15   I do wonder is subtle movement important?

00:42:19   I guess that's what we would find out.

00:42:20   I don't know if I would just want like a static image.

00:42:23   - I don't think there's any movement in the moon one.

00:42:25   - Yeah, you're probably right.

00:42:27   Well, I don't know man.

00:42:29   Maybe there is.

00:42:29   Maybe you get like some people popping in with cameras.

00:42:32   - Oh yeah.

00:42:33   Maybe there's like a shooting star or something.

00:42:35   I don't know.

00:42:36   - No one's ever actually been to the moon.

00:42:38   - Oh my God.

00:42:39   - They should have done a for all mankind tie-in

00:42:43   and put a Russian flag in the moon environment.

00:42:45   - I'm actually really surprised they're on.

00:42:49   I mean, have they made any environments out of the TV properties yet?

00:42:54   - I mean, they should.

00:42:55   If they don't, like let me work in one of the buildings of Foundation

00:42:59   or in Jamestown or whatever.

00:43:01   - Or Silo.

00:43:03   Like let me work underground.

00:43:05   - Definitely not the severance office though, right?

00:43:08   - Oh my God.

00:43:09   - We're not going to do that.

00:43:11   But I would also, I would quite like to sit at Ted Lasso's desk.

00:43:14   - Yeah.

00:43:15   - Yes.

00:43:15   - You know?

00:43:16   - I think more of that will come.

00:43:19   I mean, there's so many great tie-ins you could do with that.

00:43:23   And I think it would be cool.

00:43:25   You know, we could all be on a FaceTime call

00:43:26   and pretend we're brother Don, brother Day

00:43:29   and brother Dusk from Foundations.

00:43:30   Like that'd be sick.

00:43:31   - See when you're going to be Dusk.

00:43:33   - No.

00:43:34   (laughs)

00:43:36   - I have not seen Foundation,

00:43:38   so I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:43:39   - Oh no.

00:43:41   - Do you like it?

00:43:42   Because here's my feeling about Foundation.

00:43:44   It looks like too hard sci-fi.

00:43:46   Like I'm not going to understand what's going on.

00:43:47   - It's less hard sci-fi than it looks.

00:43:49   - Oh, okay.

00:43:50   - I bounced off of it the first time.

00:43:52   And then a bunch of people were like,

00:43:53   no, you give it three episodes.

00:43:56   And by the end of it, I could not stop watching.

00:43:58   Like I stayed up basically like three o'clock one morning

00:44:01   finishing the season.

00:44:02   - All right.

00:44:03   - Basically all you need to know is

00:44:05   you just need to watch this hot guy, which is brother Day.

00:44:08   And that's all you need to know.

00:44:10   It's like this hot dude, incredible actor, very hot.

00:44:15   And that's all you need to know.

00:44:16   - Do you like the way he looks by any chance?

00:44:18   - I mean, look at the guy.

00:44:21   He's a very handsome person.

00:44:23   - He is.

00:44:23   He is very handsome.

00:44:25   Speaking of handsome men, can we talk about our personas?

00:44:28   - Sure can.

00:44:29   - Not hot.

00:44:31   - Not great.

00:44:33   - I don't know what you're talking about.

00:44:34   Mine looks really good.

00:44:36   - Yeah.

00:44:37   Does your mouth open when you talk?

00:44:38   - Look, sometimes we all have problems.

00:44:42   You know, it was problems, you know?

00:44:44   Nobody's perfect and my mouth doesn't move.

00:44:47   I don't know what to tell you.

00:44:47   - Do you have a picture of your persona

00:44:50   that we could put in the show notes?

00:44:51   - Maybe?

00:44:52   - Okay.

00:44:53   I'll put mine in for sure.

00:44:54   - What we could actually put in the show notes,

00:44:56   we did at the end of the YouTube version of Upgrade this week,

00:45:01   we did a, it was for Upgrade Plus,

00:45:05   but we also put it in the YouTube video

00:45:07   'cause it just made sense.

00:45:08   An edited together version of a conversation

00:45:10   me and Jason are having and our personas.

00:45:12   So I'll put that in there 'cause that's,

00:45:14   you can actually see the fact that my mouth isn't moving.

00:45:17   - I don't have any video,

00:45:19   but I'll put a picture of my persona in the show notes.

00:45:23   - My God.

00:45:24   - They're okay.

00:45:26   So before we talk about the aesthetics,

00:45:28   I wanna talk about maybe why they did it this way.

00:45:30   And I think there's a huge pro to personas

00:45:35   that you can get on a video call

00:45:38   and you're always going to look the same.

00:45:40   So if you're up really early,

00:45:45   maybe haven't showered yet, but makeup on,

00:45:47   you look the way that you looked when you set it up.

00:45:50   If you had some sort of terrible injury,

00:45:54   you're disfigured.

00:45:56   You look the same that you did when you did your personas.

00:45:58   I think the consistency is good.

00:45:59   - If you are disfigured,

00:46:00   if you have a terrible injury, you're disfigured.

00:46:02   Would you put on the facial pro?

00:46:04   - Oh, I guess that's a good point.

00:46:05   Yeah, it's true.

00:46:07   - Maybe into the long-term.

00:46:09   - Maybe.

00:46:10   Look, I started that example

00:46:11   and didn't know where it was going.

00:46:12   Okay, can we just be honest for a second?

00:46:14   - Yeah, sure.

00:46:14   - The big thing is you always look the same and that's nice.

00:46:17   There are a couple of cons though, I think.

00:46:19   The first one, the biggest one that comes to mind

00:46:22   is that some people wanna be represented

00:46:25   in a different way than they look, right?

00:46:27   And Apple has no affordance for that

00:46:30   either in a Memoji situation, right?

00:46:34   Or I can make an animated version of myself

00:46:36   or that I can take my actual persona

00:46:39   and change things about it.

00:46:40   And I know they want this to be a professional device

00:46:43   for professionals, but the fact that Memoji

00:46:47   at least isn't a fallback for people who don't want

00:46:50   to use a persona really seems like a miss.

00:46:53   - Okay.

00:46:55   I'm an absolute persona lover now, right?

00:46:59   Like I've crossed the Rubicon, I'm here, you know?

00:47:02   I think if they would have done Memoji,

00:47:06   nobody would use persona and they need people to use them

00:47:10   so it can get better.

00:47:11   Because if it can get better, it's going to be incredible.

00:47:14   Because like in the experiences I've had

00:47:16   where people that I know look like the people that they know

00:47:19   and we've had the calls, like I find it very compelling.

00:47:23   Like I had a call with Jason and he was just there

00:47:28   and we were both just working.

00:47:30   Like we just had the persona call running

00:47:32   and we were just doing our work.

00:47:33   And it felt really natural because of like the spatial audio

00:47:38   and stuff like have this conversation with him

00:47:40   and it looked like him.

00:47:41   And I didn't have to worry about how I looked.

00:47:45   I wasn't getting that preview of me in Zoom

00:47:47   which is very distracting and I don't like,

00:47:48   like I actually think that there is something to it

00:47:52   and if they would have just allowed the,

00:47:54   if they would have just done the emoji thing,

00:47:55   everyone would use Memoji

00:47:57   and we're not going to get anywhere with personas.

00:47:59   But like if they can actually take it further than this,

00:48:02   there could be something there, man.

00:48:05   Like I've definitely done a 180 on this.

00:48:09   Did you guys see someone put John's persona in the clouds?

00:48:16   Like he was-

00:48:16   It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my entire life.

00:48:19   He looked like Mufasa up there, you know?

00:48:23   That will also be in the show notes.

00:48:25   It's one of the greats, it's one of the great posts on threads.

00:48:29   I think it was on threads, right?

00:48:30   Yes, it was on threads.

00:48:32   It's one of the greatest things of all time.

00:48:34   I love it so much.

00:48:35   I love it so much.

00:48:36   I mean, I get your point, Mike, and I think you're right.

00:48:40   I think people would go to Memoji

00:48:43   because they're not scary looking.

00:48:45   But I do think at some point they should do more options in this thing.

00:48:51   Yeah.

00:48:54   I can't wait to see Federico's.

00:48:55   I just cannot wait.

00:48:56   I'm very curious to see what he does with the beard and the hair and everything.

00:49:01   Yeah.

00:49:02   So as a fault, the mouth of my persona doesn't move,

00:49:07   I've been told, because of there are problems with beards.

00:49:11   And the issue isn't the scanning of the persona,

00:49:14   it's what the system can interpret of my mouth moving.

00:49:18   And I expect that my mustache is covering my lips maybe from the downward camera.

00:49:24   So it's like struggling to see me.

00:49:25   I expect that with time and more data and more information,

00:49:30   they'll be able to improve it.

00:49:31   And we'll mention this later on too,

00:49:33   but there is already beta 1.1 out, which is amazing.

00:49:38   I'm really pleased about that.

00:49:39   But one of the things they make you do when you upgrade to 1.1 is rescan your persona.

00:49:45   And there have been people that have been showing examples of the before and after.

00:49:48   It looks better.

00:49:49   So maybe they've applied some more information to this.

00:49:52   I'll be very keen to try it, but I'm definitely not putting the beta on my face computer.

00:49:56   Like I'm not doing that.

00:49:58   So we'll wait and see.

00:50:00   I am curious to know if anybody who listens to this show happens to have any face tattoos.

00:50:06   I don't.

00:50:07   But I am curious to know how it handles face tattoos.

00:50:12   If they just try and if they scan those and actually recreate them on the persona or not.

00:50:20   Like how do they come out?

00:50:22   So I bet they give it a go.

00:50:24   I mean, because they do facial hair and like marks on my face.

00:50:28   Like they are replicated.

00:50:29   Exactly.

00:50:30   Interesting.

00:50:30   So show us your face tattoos.

00:50:32   If you have any.

00:50:33   They do not pick up hand tattoos though.

00:50:35   My wedding band is tattooed on and that is not in my persona's hands.

00:50:39   What?

00:50:39   Oh, interesting.

00:50:42   So my right hand is going to look without a tattoo?

00:50:46   I think so.

00:50:47   I mean, we'll find out.

00:50:48   Maybe the ring is just not big enough,

00:50:50   but even other people who like I had a call with Quinn Nelson, whose persona is real upsetting.

00:50:57   His looks better.

00:50:57   So in the Mac Roomers Art Quarter talking about 1.1, they show images of Quinn's persona.

00:51:05   Okay.

00:51:05   And the new one looks significantly better than the old one.

00:51:09   Good.

00:51:10   But when we were on the call, that's where I first noticed that my tattooed wedding band wasn't

00:51:16   visible and he pulled his hands up and he was wearing his wedding band when he scanned his

00:51:20   hands and set everything up and his regular like metal wedding band also wasn't there.

00:51:24   So the hands may be treated differently than the face.

00:51:27   They probably are.

00:51:28   But yeah, Federico, that's what I want to know.

00:51:30   In addition to how your persona looks, I want to know how it treats your hand tattoo because

00:51:34   maybe the facial tracking.

00:51:37   I mean, clearly the facial tracking is more important than like mapping an image of a

00:51:41   hand onto a virtual hand.

00:51:42   And honestly, you don't see the hands very much in a FaceTime call unless you're, I think,

00:51:48   really like going to town on the gesturing because they got to be pretty close to your

00:51:51   face, like pretty close to your face before the Apple Vision Pro will insert them into

00:51:57   your persona.

00:51:59   So maybe they just are treating them secondary because it's not as important.

00:52:02   I have a question that came, well, it's not my question.

00:52:05   It came from GSLite who asked the two of us, my main question is, does the Apple Vision

00:52:11   Pro elicit the same sense of joy and wonder that the iPhone did when you first used one?

00:52:15   Good question.

00:52:17   It's a very good question.

00:52:18   You tell me.

00:52:20   Well, I want, okay, I'll answer first and I'll say yes, it does.

00:52:24   This thing, I don't know if I've ever used a computer before where just the mere using

00:52:33   of the computer was so distracting I would forget what I was doing.

00:52:36   Like my first day, I could not focus on anything because everything was grabbing my attention

00:52:43   and I wanted to do the first thing I could see.

00:52:46   I'd be like, all right, I've just downloaded Fantastic How, let me go set that up.

00:52:49   And I'm like, swipe, and I'm like, whoa, what's that?

00:52:51   And I go do something else, right?

00:52:53   Like it is completely overwhelming in the best possible ways.

00:52:58   It is so exciting.

00:52:59   If you use this thing for an hour, I genuinely don't understand how you couldn't come away

00:53:05   just like brimming with excitement and possibility about what this could do.

00:53:09   Like it's so incredible, it's such high fidelity things work in such incredible ways.

00:53:19   Like the fact that most of the time it feels like your mind is being read by the computer

00:53:23   as to what you're wanting to do because the eye tracking is so good.

00:53:25   The gestures are so natural.

00:53:28   Like everybody said it now, including Apple, but like this just feels like the future.

00:53:35   Like, and I don't remember if the iPhone felt like that.

00:53:38   Like the iPhone felt like a huge leap forward in what a smartphone could be.

00:53:44   But there were, you know, you could see where it was improving on the existing formulas.

00:53:50   I know that VR headsets exist.

00:53:53   I know that AR exists.

00:53:54   This thing is just so far ahead of the competition for what I have used.

00:54:00   It really feels like something so exciting and joyful.

00:54:06   Like, so yes, I would say it is the most positive experience I've had for a piece of technology

00:54:12   since the iPhone, for sure.

00:54:13   I think I could agree with that.

00:54:16   The iPad and Apple Watch were, you know, a lesser extent of exciting.

00:54:23   I think there's something different about this though, where the iPhone is like,

00:54:26   the iPhone was the first computer you could always have with you in a way that other smartphones

00:54:32   and even notebooks and PDAs never really matched.

00:54:38   Like never really got there.

00:54:39   It's like the computer that's always with you.

00:54:41   So the iPhone, I think, still stands alone.

00:54:45   It's the peak.

00:54:47   It's the high point, I think, in excitement of a new device.

00:54:50   But this, I think, is a second.

00:54:53   It's very different, right?

00:54:54   It's not going to be a computer you take everywhere with you, at least I think for a long time.

00:54:58   But what it can do and how it does it are so different.

00:55:04   And Mike, I totally agree with you.

00:55:05   I had the same feeling of kind of being kind of being overwhelmed and exploring it.

00:55:13   So the second day, the Saturday I had it, I was going to come out to my office and I

00:55:18   was going to have two FaceTime calls with some people just to kind of talk about it.

00:55:21   You know, friends in the industry, like just kind of sharing ideas and things.

00:55:25   And after those FaceTime calls, I just, you know, FaceTime closed and I was like kind

00:55:31   of just be bopping around and then I realized like 45 minutes had passed.

00:55:35   I was like, oh, gosh, I was supposed to eat dinner half an hour ago.

00:55:38   Like there is something about it that that is very enticing and exciting.

00:55:44   That is, you know, as you get to know it, you know, that that freshness wears off some.

00:55:48   But it is it is fundamentally different than a lot of other things anyone's done.

00:55:54   I can't wait for you to get yours Federico.

00:55:56   Yeah, I'm just here and just listening to you guys are like, man, I really wish I had

00:56:01   one.

00:56:01   Yeah, I don't even know what to say, because like that idea of using the future of a computer

00:56:12   now.

00:56:13   And so what Steven said about like it takes that idea of the iPad being sort of this like

00:56:19   modular experience that can do both consumption and creation in the same device, depending

00:56:25   on how you use it.

00:56:26   And it sort of cranks it up to 11.

00:56:27   Like I'm so on board with that idea that this all makes me very optimistic and very excited

00:56:35   to get mine.

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00:59:15   Steven, you are a power user of the Macintosh.

00:59:20   You are well known for this across the internet.

00:59:23   Do you feel like you're able to use your Macintosh powerfully whilst inside of the Vision Pro?

00:59:28   I do.

00:59:30   And I find this perhaps the most interesting thing about this platform

00:59:36   is that in addition to iPad apps being an escape hatch for native Vision OS apps,

00:59:42   the whole freaking Macintosh is the escape hatch for the whole platform.

00:59:47   It's so fascinating because they've never gone that far before.

00:59:52   Like, look, the iPad Pro and the MacBook Air, they're the same computer.

00:59:56   Like the hardware is the same.

00:59:58   It's a decision Apple makes not to let Mac OS run on an iPad.

01:00:03   And that's a topic for a different day.

01:00:05   But in Vision Pro, you just have like in our Vision OS,

01:00:10   you just have the ability to bring your whole Mac in.

01:00:13   And it means that you can do everything from like command line stuff and Apple script

01:00:20   all the way up through beautifully rendered 3D video all on one device.

01:00:25   Now, I guess it's two devices, because you got to have a Mac there.

01:00:29   But it's super interesting.

01:00:31   And I think it really shows that Apple views this as a work device

01:00:34   or they want to show it as a productivity device, because, hey, you can you can dump

01:00:40   out to Final Cut Pro or Logic or desktop versions of your apps or the freaking command line.

01:00:48   It's all there.

01:00:49   It's wild.

01:00:50   It's a statement that I am pleased with, but I don't understand.

01:00:56   Right.

01:00:57   Like, why does the Vision Pro get this, but the iPad never got this?

01:01:01   That's the part that I keep getting stuck on.

01:01:05   Like, I'm so happy they did it because it elevates this platform by allowing you to

01:01:12   be able to get something done if you need to, you know, like and that's really great.

01:01:17   But like, it's just I'm just not sure why they made the choice, even though I'm thrilled

01:01:24   that they did.

01:01:24   But it was a bold choice.

01:01:27   I reckon it was probably one of these things that was hotly argued.

01:01:30   And I think the right team won.

01:01:32   But I don't.

01:01:34   You know, we all sit and we obviously spend a lot of time in our lives trying to intuit

01:01:41   the decisions that Apple makes.

01:01:43   Like, we try and think this stuff through.

01:01:45   I think I've heard Jason call it "coupatinology" or something in the past.

01:01:51   And I don't...

01:01:53   "coupatinology"?

01:01:54   I don't know.

01:01:55   But I don't...

01:01:55   I just can't get my head around this one.

01:01:58   I'm so happy they did it, but I don't know why they did it at the same time or like why

01:02:02   they decided to make the choice here, but they've never done it before.

01:02:05   So here's the real question.

01:02:06   If the iPad were new today, would the Mac OS escape hatch be on the iPad if it was a

01:02:16   new platform?

01:02:17   I don't know.

01:02:18   I don't know.

01:02:19   Here's a follow up question.

01:02:22   If you were to release a new iPad Pro, likely more expensive after years of no upgrades

01:02:30   and most likely no visible changes in iPad OS this spring, would you do it on a new iPad

01:02:38   Pro?

01:02:39   If you had one shot, one opportunity.

01:02:42   Mom's spaghetti.

01:02:45   I don't know.

01:02:48   Like, it seems so obvious, right?

01:02:50   Like, why would you not do it, but they haven't done it and I doubt they're going to do it.

01:02:55   I genuinely as well, like, I'm not sure going into the future that there is a world in which

01:03:02   both the iPad and the Vision Pro exist.

01:03:04   Like, I am not sure because like for me, I could imagine everything I do on my iPad to

01:03:13   be done on a device like this one instead.

01:03:15   It is the best iPad in a way.

01:03:21   Bold.

01:03:21   Federico, please put a pin in that.

01:03:23   I want to hear your thought on that later on.

01:03:25   Like, I don't disagree with you, Stephen.

01:03:27   Like, I'm just like really intrigued as to what Federico thinks about that statement.

01:03:31   Yeah, now this is sort of the angle that I think I'm working towards.

01:03:34   Like, is this, is the Vision Pro the best iPad Pro money can buy right now in the United

01:03:39   States?

01:03:40   Yeah, like, yeah, probably.

01:03:44   Because I mean, it's a new platform based on iPad OS.

01:03:48   It runs iPad apps with an asterisk, some of them.

01:03:52   And it doesn't have the limitations of iPad OS when it comes to windows of apps around

01:03:59   you.

01:04:00   And you can make them bigger and open as many as you want.

01:04:03   Like, the only difference realistically is that obviously this is something you put on

01:04:07   your face and an iPad is something that you can hold, you know, without having to wear

01:04:13   a face computer.

01:04:14   But yeah, like that idea of is this the best iPad?

01:04:19   It's really intriguing, I think.

01:04:22   But there's that difference, right?

01:04:27   Why?

01:04:27   So you built this new platform.

01:04:31   It's version 1.0.

01:04:32   And from the get go, you knew that you needed to have an escape hatch for Mac OS.

01:04:39   And a pretty good one at that.

01:04:40   Like, from the looks of it, it does seem like a better version of Sidecar or just, you know,

01:04:48   using screen sharing.

01:04:50   There's something different about having the Mac as a window in your environment rather

01:04:55   than like using the two devices.

01:04:57   Then I don't even need to be sitting in front of the Mac anymore.

01:05:01   I can get a walk around, I can take it with me.

01:05:03   Like, there can just be a Mac in the room, and I can then just grab it and move it, go

01:05:07   sit over there.

01:05:07   Like, it is a different feeling to it being like this window that exists.

01:05:12   And then I can use the keyboard and trackpad or keyboard and mouse to control all of my

01:05:17   apps and windows.

01:05:18   And it's all in one machine rather than looking across multiple machines.

01:05:22   There's different ways.

01:05:23   There is a fine line there, but it is, in my opinion, a superior experience than using

01:05:29   something like Sidecar or the display thing that they have like this one.

01:05:33   It definitely works better, I think.

01:05:37   Yeah, super interesting from the sort of product strategy perspective.

01:05:44   Like, obviously, you know, the text is not as clear as it is in a VisionOS app, both

01:05:52   a native app or a compatibility app, because you're still, no, you're still dealing

01:05:57   with basically streaming it.

01:05:59   But the latency I've found to be incredible, and I'm on hotel Wi-Fi, right?

01:06:03   Like, the latency is something I don't even notice.

01:06:07   It feels like everything exactly one to one.

01:06:09   It doesn't feel to me like I'm streaming this thing over some kind of connection.

01:06:14   It might not even be using the Wi-Fi.

01:06:17   It might be like just directly communicating.

01:06:19   I don't know how it works.

01:06:20   If anybody does know, I would be very keen to understand how it works.

01:06:24   I guess it's not using the, anyway.

01:06:27   But it's very impressive.

01:06:30   And again, it's one of those things where like, if this is your 1.0 of what this feature

01:06:36   can be, like, excellent.

01:06:38   And that's like an overall thing, I think, for this device in general.

01:06:42   This is obviously a 1.0.

01:06:44   This is a very strong 1.0.

01:06:47   Like, so much of it is so good, and so much of it is good, but you can very clearly see

01:06:55   how it can be better.

01:06:56   And I think for that as a 1.0 is great.

01:06:59   Like, this isn't a 1.0 where it's like, oh, this thing is just broken.

01:07:02   Like, it is broken.

01:07:03   Like, I keep comparing it to the Apple Watch, right?

01:07:05   Like, well, the first Apple Watch was like, oh, you've done this wrong.

01:07:10   Like, we shouldn't be streaming apps from the phone to the watch.

01:07:14   Like, that wasn't right.

01:07:16   And Apple fixed it quickly, right?

01:07:18   Like, they handled it.

01:07:19   The hardware wasn't strong, powerful enough.

01:07:21   And then, so therefore, the OS was just not good enough.

01:07:25   Everything took too long.

01:07:26   It was not a good experience.

01:07:28   And they fixed it, and now look where the Apple Watch is.

01:07:30   The Vision Pro is as good as a 1.0 for a device like this, as I think you could hope for,

01:07:37   I think.

01:07:37   And as a foundation to build on, it's very exciting.

01:07:41   Yeah.

01:07:41   I mean, there are a few weird things here and there.

01:07:43   Like, I know I and some of the people have had issues with iMessage syncing and some

01:07:48   other things that, like, iMessage syncing, I think, in iCloud is turned off by default

01:07:53   when you set it up.

01:07:54   Maybe that's how new iPhones and iPads are too.

01:07:57   But it struck me as odd.

01:07:58   I started going in like, repin, all my favorites.

01:08:00   I've had an issue, and I don't know what causes it.

01:08:05   But sometimes, like, if I'm entering--

01:08:07   I guess I do know what causes it.

01:08:08   Sometimes entering a password from 1Password via the keyboard, like the QuickType thing,

01:08:14   I get a modal window.

01:08:16   Like, it was just like the bronze kind of glossy window.

01:08:19   And I can quit all the apps, and it just stays there until I reboot the device.

01:08:24   Like, it is a 1-point error.

01:08:28   Yeah, like, also, if you need to select a password, right, from a-- you know, like,

01:08:32   you sometimes have to select a different password, and it pops up that scrollable window.

01:08:37   That window doesn't scroll.

01:08:38   So if you have too many passwords, you just can't scroll it.

01:08:42   Or like, the thing me and Jason was talking about, like, the software keyboard appears

01:08:46   way too often, and it's always blocking the text entry window.

01:08:50   Yeah.

01:08:50   Which is just so-- but all of this stuff is like, you can just--

01:08:54   you can see how all of that is fixable.

01:08:56   100%.

01:08:56   These are just like, little weird things that they probably know were there, but they had

01:09:01   to ship it, right?

01:09:02   And now they're-- like, I'm so happy that there is a 1.1 already.

01:09:07   It's been out for like three days, right?

01:09:09   So like, you can tell they're going to keep revising on this, and then probably in June,

01:09:12   we're going to see VisionOS 2, which I'm sure will have stuff like the ability to rearrange

01:09:18   the app icons.

01:09:19   Mm-hmm.

01:09:20   Yeah, that's hilarious to me.

01:09:22   Why can't I delete mail?

01:09:23   Let me delete the mail app.

01:09:25   I can't do it.

01:09:25   I don't want the mail app.

01:09:27   Let me get rid of it, you know?

01:09:28   And like, notifications on this device, not very good experience.

01:09:31   Like, that needs work.

01:09:33   Yeah.

01:09:33   Like, the notification center is like, clunky.

01:09:37   It's maybe-- unbelievably, if you could imagine, the worst version of notification center on

01:09:43   any Apple product.

01:09:43   Ha ha ha.

01:09:44   Yes, they found a new bad way to do it, right?

01:09:46   Like, it's just not a good experience.

01:09:48   It feels like you're kind of dealing with pieces of paper that you have to remove, because

01:09:52   they're all too big, and it's clunky.

01:09:54   But like, this is all just fixable stuff.

01:09:58   This is all improvable stuff.

01:09:59   But like, the foundation is just so good.

01:10:01   Yeah, it's clear this has been in the works for a really long time.

01:10:06   And while it does come with some inherent limitations, basing it on iPadOS just seems

01:10:14   like what they've done, super smart, right?

01:10:18   That you get a lot of this stuff.

01:10:20   It's instantly familiar in a way.

01:10:22   Even though you're placing Windows in space, and some of the UI stuff is-- you got to get

01:10:26   used to things like, oh, going into settings and finding something.

01:10:31   Like, oh, Apple's strategy of merging these things is starting to pay off a little bit.

01:10:35   Like, settings on the Mac is still bad.

01:10:37   But at least I've gotten used to it.

01:10:40   And when I went into settings on VisionOS, like, oh, I know what this is.

01:10:44   You know, I know where things are.

01:10:47   And that's really, I think, one of the strongest things that this product has over its competitors.

01:10:54   Like, the pass-through is awesome.

01:10:56   Tracking is awesome, all that stuff.

01:10:58   But if you're in the Apple ecosystem, all of your stuff is just here, right?

01:11:03   You sign in, and your photos, and your notes, and your browsing history, like, all that

01:11:08   stuff is there.

01:11:09   And it makes it easier to integrate the Vision Pro and VisionOS apps into your existing workflow,

01:11:19   because it's already the ecosystem you're in, right?

01:11:23   And bringing the Mac into it the way they do, it extends it even further.

01:11:27   But that's really Apple's bread and butter now, is that all of these platforms work together,

01:11:36   and you can kind of move seamlessly between them.

01:11:40   And that, I think, does set this product apart a little bit from some of the others.

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01:13:34   All right, let's do some quick follow up-y roundup things before we finish today about

01:13:42   the Vision Pro.

01:13:43   So there was a developer strap headband thing.

01:13:48   So it's basically you can pop off the side, one of the side bands, which has got the audio

01:13:54   pods on it.

01:13:55   And it has kind of what looks like a second battery connector, but there's a USB dongle

01:14:03   hanging off the side.

01:14:04   And this will allow you to be able to plug your Vision Pro into your Mac.

01:14:13   And ostensibly, this is for developers to be able to put builds of their apps on it

01:14:18   very quickly, right?

01:14:19   Like rather than it being like a thing you're doing by streaming that you can like send

01:14:25   it over Wi-Fi basically, that you can do right now, but this will allow you to do that.

01:14:29   But it also has some additional features.

01:14:31   I'm going to read a couple of quotes here.

01:14:33   This is from @12jaun.

01:14:34   "Initial thoughts on the Vision Pro USB-C's are strapped from very preliminary testing.

01:14:41   It can't be connected to Ethernet with a dongle, nor can you see the file system or

01:14:46   piggyback in the internet connection of a Mac that you plug into.

01:14:49   However, it makes taking screenshots faster and easier."

01:14:52   So for @12jaun, it's very worth it, and from a 9to5Mac article saying, "The developer strap

01:14:57   also lets developers capture a direct video feed from Apple Vision Pro via a wired USB-C

01:15:02   connection using Reality Composer Pro."

01:15:05   So it has some benefits, and I guess it's also good for developers when it comes to

01:15:09   putting together screenshots and stuff like that, because it's kind of weird.

01:15:13   Like when you take a screenshot on this thing, it's kind of always off angle.

01:15:15   There's like a strange thing going on there.

01:15:18   So I guess this makes that easier.

01:15:21   You get the foveated rendering as well, where just whatever they were looking at at the

01:15:26   time is in focus, and the rest is pretty bad.

01:15:29   Does this stop that from happening?

01:15:32   No, it doesn't.

01:15:33   And also, you can use the--

01:15:36   Well, I know that it doesn't if you use QuickTime, because if you use the USB adapter, the Vision

01:15:43   Pro also shows up as a video feed, like as a video source in QuickTime.

01:15:47   But if you take a video there in QuickTime, it's also foveated.

01:15:52   So at least there, it doesn't fix it.

01:15:55   I'm not sure about Reality Composer.

01:15:57   I mean, it makes sense to me that it wouldn't fix it, because it's what the system is rendering.

01:16:03   Like, I don't think that there is another way to capture the video.

01:16:06   Like, the system isn't rendering the entire field of view 100% of the time.

01:16:12   I don't think it's powerful enough to do that.

01:16:13   You can force it if you're capturing through Xcode.

01:16:17   But from what I have seen and heard, it is extremely stuttery.

01:16:24   Like, you don't want to do video with it.

01:16:26   It's really pushing the hardware further than it's meant to be.

01:16:30   Like, with foveated rendering, it's just what is near you or near your vision is sharp,

01:16:35   and the rest falls off.

01:16:36   And like, I don't notice it while using the product.

01:16:40   Like, I don't-- I don't like, oh, my peripheral vision is blurry.

01:16:43   Like, because that's how your eyes actually work, right?

01:16:44   Like, I'm looking straight ahead.

01:16:45   >> I notice it when I'm using the Mac.

01:16:47   When I'm using the Mac inside of the Vision Pro, I see it.

01:16:50   But when I'm using Vision stuff, I don't see it.

01:16:52   This, to me, feels like one of those things, like, what are you going to make better in

01:16:55   Vision Pro 2, Vision Pro 3?

01:16:57   It will get more powerful, so they won't need to be so restrictive on this.

01:17:00   >> Yeah, maybe so.

01:17:01   But it is-- it does mean the screenshot situation is pretty janky.

01:17:09   I know a lot of developers have been using the simulator for their screenshots.

01:17:13   I think we'll see a lot of them maybe even come up with, like, actual other renders to

01:17:18   show off their apps, because it's a bit weird.

01:17:20   >> I'm loving this feedback here from developer Stephen Hackett.

01:17:24   Like, how on earth does he know this?

01:17:27   >> Yeah, I don't know.

01:17:28   How would you--

01:17:29   >> I know that a lot of developers--

01:17:31   >> You're allowed to say.

01:17:32   We know you do.

01:17:33   We know what you do.

01:17:34   >> Oh, oh, oh, I get-- no, I get to do it here.

01:17:36   Disclosure, in addition to owning Half of Relay FM, I also work with _DavidSmith on his apps,

01:17:42   including Widgetsmith, Sleep++, and Podometer++.

01:17:44   >> Which is how you could possibly know about how screenshots are taken and what they look

01:17:48   like and the fact that maybe you can turn out--

01:17:50   >> It's true.

01:17:50   I also know that building an app the size of Widgetsmith on an M2 Pro, it works, you

01:17:57   know?

01:17:58   It turns out Xcode, good use for more computing power.

01:18:01   >> Like, for example, if you wanted, like, an M3 Ultra Max Studio,

01:18:06   potentially.

01:18:07   >> Nah, interesting.

01:18:08   >> No, I'm not buying any computers.

01:18:09   M2 Pro.

01:18:10   >> Yeah, it was--

01:18:11   >> Ride or die, baby.

01:18:12   >> iFixit has split this thing apart, cracked it open, and taken a look at the insides,

01:18:19   and there's a lot of insides.

01:18:20   >> I, in my link to this on 512, I wrote, I've been looking forward to this blog post

01:18:25   since June.

01:18:26   I love hardware.

01:18:27   The density, the raw density of what is in this headset is, like, the exact opposite

01:18:34   of the Apple Silicon Mac Pro, which is a box full of air unless you put cards in it.

01:18:38   This thing is unbelievably dense, and there's a lot of smart things about the design.

01:18:44   The most interesting one to me is that, look, this thing puts off heat.

01:18:49   I don't really feel it on my face, but if you take it off, it's warm.

01:18:53   Like, it is emanating heat.

01:18:54   It's got fans and big vents.

01:18:56   But all the hot stuff is as far away from your eyes as it can be.

01:19:02   Like, you have the screens, and then you have, like, a mid-plate thing, and then the processors

01:19:06   are on the other side.

01:19:07   Like, they're doing what they can to keep the heat away from your face.

01:19:10   But, man, the work that must have gone into this, like, I was stunned scrolling through

01:19:16   the iFixit thing and then watching the video.

01:19:18   There is how much stuff is in this headset.

01:19:22   It's what they're best at.

01:19:23   It really is.

01:19:24   >> So Google has said that YouTube is on the roadmap for Vision Pro.

01:19:29   They are building a Vision Pro app.

01:19:31   >> Okay.

01:19:32   >> I've been using Juno by Christian Selig, which I found out from the great coverage

01:19:37   that Jon has been doing on apps so far on Mac Stories.

01:19:40   I'll put a link in the show notes to the Vision OS section.

01:19:42   >> Thank you, Jon.

01:19:42   >> He's been doing a really good job.

01:19:44   Like, also that one day ahead, I immediately bought that.

01:19:46   That is a very cool idea for how to visualize your calendar.

01:19:50   So I thought that was really cool.

01:19:51   But, yeah, Google have said, like, they're working,

01:19:54   what YouTube has said, like, we're working on it.

01:19:56   Like, they're going to do it.

01:19:57   So Christian's Day in the Sun is still here.

01:20:01   Godspeed, Christian Selig, but they're coming for you.

01:20:03   You know what I mean?

01:20:04   Like, do it while you still can.

01:20:06   >> I think he probably -- I don't talk to him about it,

01:20:10   but I kind of assumed he knew that was what we're coming.

01:20:12   >> I mean, we all knew it was going to happen, right?

01:20:14   Like, at some point, they were going to build it.

01:20:17   They just hadn't.

01:20:18   But this is great.

01:20:19   I'm happy that this app exists right now because I want to use it right now.

01:20:23   And I'll be happy when Google brings the official one.

01:20:26   >> Yeah.

01:20:28   >> And VisionOS 1.1, the beta is out.

01:20:32   We mentioned the persona improvements.

01:20:35   There are some features that are being added that were missing,

01:20:37   like iMessage contact key, which was something added in 17.3, I think.

01:20:43   Was it 17.4?

01:20:44   >> Seven -- three, I think.

01:20:47   >> Okay.

01:20:47   >> But I guess the sense is that they're bringing VisionOS up to speed

01:20:51   with the other OS releases, which makes sense.

01:20:54   >> And I would love to know if someone can tell me Safari profiles in VisionOS,

01:21:01   because currently they're not, so I can't get to any of my tabs.

01:21:04   All my tabs are hidden away.

01:21:06   They're all gone, and I can't get to any of them.

01:21:09   And I would really like to get to my tabs.

01:21:11   >> They're very sick.

01:21:12   >> Yes, please, my tabs.

01:21:14   So, yeah, that would be very helpful.

01:21:17   I would like that very much, and I hope that that comes in VisionOS 1.1.

01:21:20   >> Yeah.

01:21:21   >> Okay.

01:21:22   Do you think that, like, moving forward, that VisionOS will be in lockstep with,

01:21:31   like, iOS releases?

01:21:32   I mean, I know they sort of had to, like, catch up this time,

01:21:35   but I assume moving forward that, like, say the iOS 18 cycle,

01:21:41   because then the numbers will sink.

01:21:42   Like, iOS 18.1 comes out in October next year.

01:21:46   VisionOS 2.1, like, I kind of assume it'll just be in lockstep with everything else, right?

01:21:51   >> Me too, me too.

01:21:52   That's what they like to do, yeah.

01:21:54   >> It has to be.

01:21:54   >> They like to build these features in lockstep, and, like, you know,

01:21:58   you have a feature somewhere, and you also have it on the other platform.

01:22:02   That's what they do, and it really speaks to the, if you think about it,

01:22:05   like, the unprecedented scale that, like, this is the one thing you got,

01:22:09   like, you can dislike Apple for a bunch of reasons in how they design products

01:22:14   or how they deal with marketing, whatever,

01:22:16   but there's one thing that I think you can objectively appreciate.

01:22:21   It, like, the scale that they operate at, like, the multiple operating systems

01:22:27   that they can roll out for a whole bunch of devices going back years,

01:22:34   and they keep on adding platforms to platforms,

01:22:37   and they release updates all together.

01:22:39   It is pretty remarkable.

01:22:41   Like, even if you dislike Apple, what they do for multiple operating systems

01:22:47   and a family of devices for each OS, it is pretty impressive.

01:22:52   >> It is, yep.

01:22:53   >> I think.

01:22:53   >> It is.

01:22:54   We've got a shout-out over there.

01:22:55   It's kind of wild that they make it work as well as they do.

01:22:59   >> Yes.

01:23:00   >> Right?

01:23:00   And the worst that they do with this is, like, the Mac comes out a couple of weeks later,

01:23:05   and that's what I imagine for this.

01:23:06   It's like...

01:23:06   >> That is the worst case scenario.

01:23:09   >> And that's probably what will happen here.

01:23:11   Like, VisionOS will either come out on the same day,

01:23:13   or it'll be, like, a week or two later on, and realistically that's fine,

01:23:16   but I think it's a necessity because of the way they run their business.

01:23:21   Like, if they want to have the ecosystem be as strong as it is, which it is,

01:23:26   these things have to work, because, like, I'm giving them a pass right now,

01:23:29   but, like, they told me, you know, I should use Safari profiles

01:23:34   because it's going to be everywhere I use Safari.

01:23:36   Well, it ain't, right?

01:23:37   And so, like, I have a bunch of tabs right now that I use every day on all of my devices,

01:23:42   and I can't get to them.

01:23:43   >> That's terrible.

01:23:44   >> It's like, I give them a pass right now, but it needs to happen, right?

01:23:48   Like, this stuff, you know, like, the iMessage contact key is one of them, right?

01:23:53   Like, some people just can't use iMessage, and so that needs to be added, so...

01:23:59   >> I think something else I'd like to see in the very near future in these releases

01:24:03   is moving more of their apps out of compatibility mode.

01:24:07   I don't really understand why so many of them are in there,

01:24:13   and so many seemingly obvious ones, like Maps.

01:24:16   I'd probably put Calendar in there as well, mainly because the calendar UI,

01:24:18   like I mentioned earlier, is very fiddly with eye control.

01:24:21   I really want to get to a point where that compatibility list of Apple apps is very short,

01:24:28   and, you know, again, I don't know why they're not there.

01:24:34   Maybe it's, like, a disclosure issue with an Apple.

01:24:36   They don't want to tell, you know, those wild people building the Calendar app

01:24:39   that there's a Vision Pro coming.

01:24:42   Maybe there's only two people working on Calendar, and they're too busy to do it so far,

01:24:46   but that, I want more...

01:24:48   I want to see more of that.

01:24:51   The other thing I think I would add here of things that we want to see,

01:24:57   sort of in near-term versions of Vision OS,

01:25:01   is I think the guest mode is interesting the way that they set it up.

01:25:06   So you can go in there and basically give people set access to apps,

01:25:11   but it's your apps, like, that's all your stuff is in them.

01:25:16   And there's a lengthy support document we can find to put in the show notes.

01:25:18   I think all that's too convoluted, and it goes to a bigger discussion

01:25:25   that Apple seems to be allergic to making their iOS-based devices multi-user,

01:25:32   unless you have an iPad tied to an education account,

01:25:35   which is like this whole other strange thing that really doesn't do what you think it should do.

01:25:38   It's a kind of a weird process.

01:25:39   And I understand that this is in tension with the fact that the Vision Pro

01:25:45   may have your corrective lenses in it,

01:25:47   or may have your exact, you know, light shield and light shield cushion on it.

01:25:52   But at $3,500, it would be really nice to share this with my spouse if she wanted to use it.

01:25:58   And there's not an easy way to do that.

01:26:01   And again, that's a broader problem that I think they should address,

01:26:03   especially on iPad. It makes most sense on the iPad.

01:26:06   Why is an iPad a single user device, 14 years into it, I literally do not understand.

01:26:12   But if they do that, I'd like it to come to this product as well.

01:26:17   Yep, I agree with you.

01:26:18   The guest mode is nice. In theory, it's nice to have one.

01:26:24   In practicality, it's just not very good.

01:26:26   It just doesn't work very well.

01:26:28   And it's very complicated and convoluted.

01:26:31   And we don't have the answers for what you would do to make this work,

01:26:38   but it would be really great if they could work something out.

01:26:40   Yeah.

01:26:41   Yeah, it's a matter of prioritization, right?

01:26:44   Apple can make these things do anything.

01:26:45   It's just a matter of what is important to them and to their roadmap.

01:26:52   But to reiterate something you said a second ago, for a 1.0, it is very impressive.

01:27:00   I think that leaves the question of where does it fit into our lives?

01:27:04   Like, I think that's still unanswered.

01:27:07   I think almost for everybody, right?

01:27:10   I don't think we can answer that one weekend.

01:27:12   And that's where at the beginning of the show, you said that you wanted to know what I thought.

01:27:16   And that's been my sticking point.

01:27:18   I said on threads the other day, because I've said it in person,

01:27:21   like, I have never in the 15 years of me doing this,

01:27:26   I have never had a new Apple product or a tech story be like,

01:27:34   I've never had one that more people ask about than this.

01:27:39   I got a bunch of people like, oh, did you get the,

01:27:40   and a lot of people call them the goggles, which is very interesting to me.

01:27:45   I think it's because of the look.

01:27:46   But a lot of people like, hey, have you tried it?

01:27:49   Did you get one?

01:27:49   What do you think of it?

01:27:50   People are interested in this.

01:27:52   I've never had more people come up to me.

01:27:55   Like in my life or text me in my life about product.

01:27:58   But it makes it really hard.

01:27:59   Like my job is to have feelings about computers.

01:28:01   This is what I've said to them.

01:28:03   And I don't know how I feel about this.

01:28:05   And I think that really comes down to where does it fit in?

01:28:08   And I've just come to realize over the last couple of days,

01:28:11   we're not going to know maybe for a long time where this fits into our lives,

01:28:17   whether it be entertainment or productivity or something in between.

01:28:21   It's just going to take time because this is so different.

01:28:25   And really it's unlike things that we've had before in almost any way.

01:28:31   Federico, I can't wait.

01:28:35   I'm just so excited for you when it gets there.

01:28:37   Me too.

01:28:37   Me too.

01:28:38   Soon.

01:28:39   I hope soon, but not yet.

01:28:40   Well, now that we have finished follow-up, it's time to go into the closing.

01:28:45   How does that sound?

01:28:46   Perfect.

01:28:47   The natural order.

01:28:49   Yes.

01:28:50   It's like the time we did the show based on dice rolls and everyone freaked out.

01:28:53   If you want to find the links to the stuff we spoke about, they're in your podcast player.

01:28:59   They're also on the web at relay.fm/connected/488.

01:29:01   If nothing else, click on the link that says OTJ in the sky.

01:29:07   Like just click that one.

01:29:09   It will make your day.

01:29:10   I want to set it as an environment on my vision pro, on my face computer.

01:29:15   You can find us all online.

01:29:19   You can find Federico and his whole team over at Mac stories.

01:29:22   Y'all have done a great job of highlighting vision OS apps.

01:29:26   Like I've downloaded basically everything y'all talk to.

01:29:28   That is one way this does feel like the iPhone is like early days of the app store.

01:29:32   It may have, I've just, I'm just downloading apps, man.

01:29:35   Like I'm just going wild.

01:29:36   Lots of great coverage over there.

01:29:39   You can follow Federico on social media at Vatici on threads and at Vatici and macstories.net

01:29:45   on Mastodon.

01:29:47   Mike co-hosts a bunch of other shows here on relay.fm.

01:29:50   I'm very excited to hear y'all's cortex episode, which I hope is coming about all this.

01:29:53   It's recorded.

01:29:55   Awesome.

01:29:56   So soon, but not yet.

01:29:58   Yes.

01:29:59   Soon, but not yet soon, but not yet.

01:30:00   You can follow Mike's work also at cortex brand and online.

01:30:04   He is I Mike on threads and I Mike at Mike.social over on Mastodon.

01:30:09   You can find my writing at 512 pixels.net and I co-host Mac power users each and every Sunday.

01:30:15   The Sunday's episode is very much like this one.

01:30:19   It is David sparks and I talking about our experiences and impressions of the Apple vision

01:30:25   pro and its platform.

01:30:26   We talk a lot about the entertainment productivity angles.

01:30:29   So I think that's a really nice compliment to this episode.

01:30:31   So that'll be out Sunday.

01:30:33   You can find me on social media, ISM H 86 on threads and ISM H at e-world.social on

01:30:39   Mastodon.

01:30:40   I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, ship station, net suite, and ECAM. And until

01:30:46   next week, guys say goodbye.

01:30:47   Cheerio.

01:30:49   Bye y'all.