487: Mr. Fake John Voorhees Goes to Europe


00:00:00   [MUSIC]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to Connected, Episode 487.

00:00:12   It's made possible this week by ZocDoc and Squarespace.

00:00:15   My name is Stephen Hackett and I'm joined by Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:19   Hello, Stephen Hackett.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Federico Fedigy.

00:00:25   I'm joined by Federico Fedigy.

00:00:27   Hi, Federico.

00:00:28   Hello, Stephen Hackett. Hello, Mike Hurley.

00:00:30   It is me, Federico.

00:00:32   Yes.

00:00:33   I'm so sorry.

00:00:34   The week after I said I don't want to hear any variations

00:00:37   of your name, I just absolutely butcher it.

00:00:40   You really did.

00:00:42   It's fine.

00:00:42   Yeah, I crashed hard into your name, man.

00:00:46   I apologize.

00:00:47   It's a big week.

00:00:49   We have emoji to name.

00:00:52   We have Apple versus the EU.

00:00:55   We have Vision Pro reviews.

00:00:57   But first, we have follow-up

00:00:59   and we should wish each other happy birthday, Mike.

00:01:03   Happy birthday, Federico.

00:01:04   Happy birthday, OTJ.

00:01:05   Happy birthday, guys.

00:01:07   Happy birthday, everyone.

00:01:09   No, this is the traditional Stephen and Mike birthday week.

00:01:13   It's bang in the middle.

00:01:14   Stephen's birthday was a couple of days ago on 28th.

00:01:18   Yeah, and mine is tomorrow, the 31st.

00:01:21   So it is that time again.

00:01:23   Happy birthday, everyone.

00:01:24   Yeah, Mike is turning 26 tomorrow.

00:01:27   So--

00:01:28   And Stephen just turned 65.

00:01:30   Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

00:01:32   Well, yeah, happy birthday.

00:01:36   We bought each other the same gift.

00:01:38   Basically, yeah, yeah.

00:01:40   We did.

00:01:41   I bought Stephen the iPhone 10 grid frame thing.

00:01:46   You know the grid frames?

00:01:48   Yeah.

00:01:49   Just because it's also the 10th year of Relay.

00:01:51   So I was like, oh, that's like a--

00:01:53   That's on theme, okay.

00:01:54   Two gifts in one.

00:01:56   And I received my gift from Stephen yesterday.

00:02:00   And Adina watched me open it,

00:02:03   and she was like, you look very happy.

00:02:05   Big smile on my face.

00:02:07   Stephen bought me the grid of the iPhone 6 Plus.

00:02:12   Ooh, plus copy.

00:02:13   AKA, the Mike was right phone.

00:02:16   Exactly.

00:02:18   Made me very happy, made me very happy.

00:02:20   And I didn't know what you would've gotten me

00:02:22   when I ordered your gift.

00:02:23   That's what's funny about this.

00:02:25   And-- It's very good.

00:02:26   I opened your gift to me, and I was like,

00:02:29   oh, look what we did.

00:02:31   Stephen, do you have the grid with all the enamel pins?

00:02:38   Did I misremember that?

00:02:39   I do have that.

00:02:41   Mary gave me that last year, I think.

00:02:42   'Cause I was thinking about buying you one of those,

00:02:44   but yes, you have one.

00:02:46   And so that was why I didn't do that.

00:02:48   And then I was like, oh, the iPhone 10,

00:02:50   that's the one to do.

00:02:51   I do, I do have one.

00:02:52   So yeah, happy birthday.

00:02:55   Happy birthday, everyone.

00:02:57   Listener Randall, listener Randall wrote in,

00:03:02   asking, "Where have you all landed on watchOS 10,

00:03:08   specifically the side button and the loss of the old dock?

00:03:12   I found widgets to be a good replacement,

00:03:14   they're glanceable,

00:03:15   and I use them to get my favorite apps quickly.

00:03:18   Curious what y'all think."

00:03:19   Yeah.

00:03:20   Still hate the button change.

00:03:24   Never use widgets.

00:03:25   And for the past few days,

00:03:27   I've been looking into just out of curiosity,

00:03:31   like does Fitbit still exist?

00:03:34   - Oh no. - Yeah.

00:03:36   - It's just going well, basically is what you're saying.

00:03:37   - No, but Sylvia has been asking me, well, like, hey.

00:03:40   So Sylvia brought up this idea of like, you know what?

00:03:42   Like, I don't really use the Apple Watch much after all.

00:03:47   Like, are there any alternatives that are smaller?

00:03:50   So it all started with this question that Sylvia had.

00:03:53   Like, are there smaller smartwatches?

00:03:55   And so, and I started doing some research

00:03:58   and I realized that not only is Fitbit still around,

00:04:01   but they have some pretty cool looking, more slim devices.

00:04:05   Like the Charge 6 looks pretty neat.

00:04:07   Now I'm not gonna get a Fitbit for myself,

00:04:09   but I think it's interesting.

00:04:11   All this to say, I keep,

00:04:13   I'm at the point where I really dislike the changes

00:04:15   of watchOS 10, and I still find myself wanting

00:04:19   the Apple Watch to do more than it does.

00:04:22   Like, I don't know, give me a watch with a camera.

00:04:25   Give me like more things that I can do with a watch.

00:04:29   But Randall, I landed where I was months ago.

00:04:33   I dislike the changes in watchOS 10.

00:04:35   - Are you talking about Fitbit?

00:04:38   I was reminded a few days ago, I think on threads,

00:04:42   someone posted a picture of the jawbone up.

00:04:45   - Oh gosh.

00:04:47   - Which is like the peak of fitness tracking.

00:04:49   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:04:50   - It was that and the Nike Fuelband.

00:04:53   It was a real showdown back in the day.

00:04:55   - Nike Fuelband, yeah.

00:04:56   - Yes, these were good products that we pour one out for.

00:05:00   We'll never see something like this again

00:05:02   because everyone wants to put a screen on everything now.

00:05:05   I will say, probably the opposite.

00:05:08   I really like widgets, I use them a lot.

00:05:11   The only thing that I miss is like the quick access

00:05:15   to certain applications.

00:05:16   And so I use the multitasking for that

00:05:18   because usually I only use like four apps on my Apple Watch.

00:05:22   So like they're always kind of there,

00:05:24   just not in the order that I want.

00:05:25   I've gotten pretty used to the side button too.

00:05:27   Like I do kind of wish I could do something else with it,

00:05:29   but I use the widgets a lot.

00:05:30   And most of the things that I want are in the widgets.

00:05:33   And then I have one of those like widget launcher things

00:05:37   at the bottom, right?

00:05:38   Where it's got like the three apps that I want to open.

00:05:40   - Yeah, yep.

00:05:41   - Between all of that, like I'm pretty good of it.

00:05:44   Like I think I dig it.

00:05:45   I dig watchOS 10.

00:05:47   - I still want some sort of wristband

00:05:50   that does everything the Apple Watch does,

00:05:52   but without a screen.

00:05:53   But I don't, never gonna get it.

00:05:56   'Cause I'd like to wear a different watch,

00:05:59   but still track all my stuff.

00:06:01   But that-

00:06:02   - I kind of want Apple to make a smart ring.

00:06:04   - Yeah.

00:06:05   - The smart rings are sort of a thing after CES.

00:06:08   Yeah, that idea of like a display-free Apple tracker,

00:06:16   that idea speaks to me more and more, I think.

00:06:19   Because the thing is,

00:06:20   I really don't want to give up the safety,

00:06:21   the peace of mind that the Apple Watch gives me

00:06:23   with the heart rate sensor and the sleep tracking

00:06:26   and just being aware that there's an Apple accessory

00:06:31   that checks on me.

00:06:33   Like I don't want to give up on that, but increasingly,

00:06:36   I don't know if maybe watchOS 10

00:06:39   was sort of the catalyst of this.

00:06:43   I used to use it more.

00:06:45   And I'm sure there's a component of that

00:06:48   that is, it used to be easier for me

00:06:50   to check on a couple of apps that I use a lot on the watch,

00:06:54   and now it's harder to open those apps.

00:06:57   So I'm sure there's an element of that somewhere.

00:06:59   But like I said, I'm not gonna get a Fitbit,

00:07:02   but Silvia might, so we'll see.

00:07:05   - You guys know that I tried the Aura Ring last year?

00:07:08   - You did?

00:07:09   You did? - Yeah, no.

00:07:10   - I forgot, either I forgot or I didn't know this.

00:07:12   - No, you didn't forget, he didn't tell us.

00:07:14   - Yeah, for like a month.

00:07:15   - There was no forgetting here.

00:07:16   - How was it?

00:07:18   - So I've had my wedding band tattooed on my hand for years,

00:07:23   so I haven't worn an actual ring in a long time.

00:07:26   That was the weirdest part for me,

00:07:27   is having something on my hand again.

00:07:29   But it was like, I really just came down to it

00:07:33   like I want everything in one place.

00:07:37   And at least a year ago, some stuff worked

00:07:40   with Apple Health better than others with the Aura Ring.

00:07:44   And so I ended up going back to the Apple Watch

00:07:47   and returning it, but every once in a while,

00:07:49   I'm like, maybe I should have given that more time.

00:07:52   Maybe I should have given it a better shot.

00:07:55   But what I really want is that Apple band so much.

00:07:59   Just do it, Apple, come on.

00:08:01   - They're never gonna do it.

00:08:03   I mean, my thing is there could be all these products

00:08:05   and stuff like the Aura Ring, there's stuff like that,

00:08:07   right, Fitbits, whatever.

00:08:08   My issue is it's not gonna go into the rings,

00:08:11   and I like the rings.

00:08:12   - Yep, yeah.

00:08:14   - I guess it doesn't go the way that I want it to.

00:08:17   - Sasha wrote in, I wear makeup every day,

00:08:19   as many people do.

00:08:20   I always try to avoid the situation

00:08:24   where makeup rubs off onto my clothes.

00:08:25   I guess the light shield on the Vision Pro

00:08:28   may look pretty gruesome if I used the headset.

00:08:31   - Yeah, yeah.

00:08:32   - There's no way around that.

00:08:33   The answer is yes, it's gonna be bad.

00:08:35   - I think so, and I thought about that watching,

00:08:38   we'll get to them, but I think we all watched

00:08:39   a bunch of review videos today for the Vision Pro.

00:08:42   And especially watching MKBHD's video unboxing it,

00:08:46   the whole thing is white and cloth and light gray,

00:08:50   and it's all very clean and pristine,

00:08:52   and all I could think about, in addition to this comment,

00:08:54   but just generally, this thing may look

00:08:57   really grungy in a year.

00:08:59   - Like, think how dirty your Apple Watch bands get.

00:09:02   - Yeah, exactly.

00:09:03   - Yeah, it's gonna be gross.

00:09:05   - It's gonna be gross.

00:09:06   - I wonder if it's gonna be the first third-party

00:09:08   manufacturer to make a makeup-resistant

00:09:12   Vision Pro-compatible light seal.

00:09:16   - And bands, there's gonna be,

00:09:19   I'm looking forward to the different bands

00:09:22   that people will make.

00:09:24   - Like a big leather one?

00:09:26   - I'm thinking just different ways of attaching it to you.

00:09:30   Maybe stuff that has maybe more counterbalancing in.

00:09:35   I'm intrigued to see what people make

00:09:38   when this thing is available,

00:09:40   and people can kind of tour around with it

00:09:42   and come up with some stuff.

00:09:44   - Real-time follow-up, Aura now makes a,

00:09:47   because everyone does, a brushed titanium ring.

00:09:51   - Okay.

00:09:51   - Oh.

00:09:52   - There you go.

00:09:53   - Should we try the Aura rings?

00:09:55   - No. - As a group?

00:09:57   - No.

00:09:57   What do you wanna make this like a,

00:10:01   what was that show where all the kids have rings?

00:10:04   You know what I'm talking about?

00:10:07   There was like a cartoon show.

00:10:08   - Kids have rings.

00:10:09   Super Friends?

00:10:10   - It is like, maybe, I don't know, I don't remember.

00:10:13   You know, like the rings, you turn the rings and--

00:10:16   - Captain Planet and the Planeteers?

00:10:18   - It probably was Captain Planet, yeah.

00:10:20   It was probably Captain Planet.

00:10:21   - I have never heard of this in my life.

00:10:24   - Maybe that's it, but that's gonna be us.

00:10:26   We're gonna be like a band of having our little rings.

00:10:30   Yeah, I don't wanna do it.

00:10:31   I mean, if you guys wanna do it,

00:10:33   Gladys Stephen already has, Federico,

00:10:35   I like welcome it, but I'm not,

00:10:38   I don't wanna wear one of these things.

00:10:39   - Let me just read this a little bit.

00:10:42   Our world is in peril.

00:10:44   Gaia, the spirit of the earth,

00:10:45   can no longer stand the terrible destruction

00:10:47   plaguing the planet.

00:10:49   She sends five magic rings to five special young people.

00:10:53   - Oh, I thought it was from the Aura website.

00:10:55   - Power of the earth, power of fire, power of wind,

00:10:59   power of water, and most importantly, the power of heart.

00:11:02   When the five powers combine,

00:11:04   they summon earth's greatest champion, Captain Planet.

00:11:07   Go planet.

00:11:08   - Captain Planet.

00:11:09   - He's a hero.

00:11:10   - The power is yours.

00:11:12   - Captain Planet, okay.

00:11:14   - So we got that covered.

00:11:16   - Okay, so who would win in a fight between Captain Planet

00:11:19   and the mother earth that Apple showed in the video?

00:11:22   - I mean, Captain Planet is a superhero, so.

00:11:26   - It's true.

00:11:27   This show had six seasons, how?

00:11:29   - Captain Planet ruled, but it was terrible.

00:11:33   Like, Captain Planet is one of these things where like,

00:11:36   it just, they had like a different view

00:11:38   of what being environmentally friendly was, right?

00:11:42   And it was like personal responsibility

00:11:45   was its kind of vibe, which, you know.

00:11:50   Gaia was voiced by Whoopi Goldberg, so.

00:11:52   - Okay, cool.

00:11:53   - And Captain Planet had a green mullet.

00:11:56   - Who doesn't?

00:11:57   I mean, it's very much in a...

00:12:00   - 'Cause like, to give you the idea of what I'm saying

00:12:01   about a different time,

00:12:02   like they made Captain Planet plastic action figures.

00:12:06   Think about that.

00:12:07   - Okay.

00:12:08   - You know, it's a different time.

00:12:10   - Take that, Mother Earth.

00:12:11   - Obviously good for the environment.

00:12:13   - It's a different time, man.

00:12:15   - I have a very small piece of follow-up

00:12:17   that I have labeled for now, Mike MaybeRight.

00:12:22   So it's not a definitive assessment

00:12:25   of Mike's level of correctness.

00:12:28   So Mike MaybeRight.

00:12:30   I am trying, and this has been going on

00:12:33   for the past 24 hours,

00:12:35   I'm trying to see if Mike was or wasn't right

00:12:39   about using the iPhone without a case.

00:12:42   Yeah, it's been, I gotta tell you,

00:12:46   just yesterday, I decided, you know what,

00:12:49   I'm gonna spice things up a little bit here with this iPhone

00:12:53   and I'm gonna take out the case

00:12:55   and I'm gonna use the iPhone without a case.

00:12:57   It's maybe a silly thing,

00:12:58   but there's something about using the iPhone

00:13:02   without the case that makes me, of all things,

00:13:05   makes me appreciate the display more.

00:13:10   And I think it's the lack of the sort of edges

00:13:14   of the case around it.

00:13:17   The fact that it's like a flush display,

00:13:20   almost edge to edge on the 15 Pro Max,

00:13:23   that it makes me appreciate the phone's screen more.

00:13:28   That's what I've noticed so far.

00:13:30   I dislike the lack of peace of mind,

00:13:34   basically knowing that I will damage this device somehow,

00:13:39   at some point, if I keep doing this.

00:13:42   But so far, I look at it,

00:13:45   like right now it's on my anchor cube charging

00:13:48   and I'm looking at the display and I'm like,

00:13:50   that's a really cool display

00:13:51   in a way that I wasn't appreciating it as much before

00:13:55   when you put a case around it.

00:13:58   - Well, I'm happy that you're living free, you know?

00:14:00   - Well, like I said, it's just,

00:14:03   don't count this as a victory yet.

00:14:06   - I haven't yet, 'cause you haven't decided,

00:14:07   but it feels good, it just feels good.

00:14:09   - Yeah, so this is the first installment

00:14:11   of this mini MMBR series, Mike May Be Right.

00:14:16   We'll see if Mike may be right

00:14:19   about other things in the future.

00:14:21   But yeah, that's my update so far.

00:14:26   (laughing)

00:14:28   - Oh God.

00:14:29   - Welcome back to the Quizzies,

00:14:30   the quiz show within a podcast

00:14:32   where I, Mike Hurley,

00:14:33   quiz my connected co-hosts randomly

00:14:35   and by surprise on a variety of varying subjects.

00:14:38   As happened last year, the Quizzies has eaten the Jeremy's

00:14:42   (laughing)

00:14:43   and has absorbed the Jeremy's inside of the Quizzies.

00:14:47   So here we are, it's time for the Jeremy's.

00:14:49   What are the Jeremy's inside of the Quizzies, you may ask?

00:14:52   (laughing)

00:14:53   - Oh my God.

00:14:54   - It's where we take a look at the new emoji

00:14:57   that have been added to iOS

00:14:59   and Federico has to try and guess the names.

00:15:02   This year there are six emoji, there's not a lot of emoji.

00:15:07   So to be fair, they have added many more,

00:15:10   but they are not like really things

00:15:12   worth trying to get Federico to guess.

00:15:15   Like they added a selection of family emoji

00:15:17   that are just outlines

00:15:19   and it's just like various combinations

00:15:21   of the word adult and child.

00:15:23   Like for example, there is one emoji that is called family,

00:15:26   adult, adult, child, child.

00:15:28   There's just no point in having Federico guess that.

00:15:30   Also there is a selection of emoji

00:15:32   that were moving in one direction

00:15:34   and now they have them moving in the other direction.

00:15:36   So person facing right and person facing left.

00:15:39   - So it's the peanut butter, peanut butter,

00:15:41   peanut butter release.

00:15:42   - Peanut butter bread bread.

00:15:43   - Basically, yeah.

00:15:44   But there are six emoji that are new.

00:15:48   We have new designs, we haven't had them before.

00:15:50   They're like brand new things.

00:15:53   That is what we're going to be quizzing Federico on.

00:15:56   And here is where the quizzes take the Jeremy's

00:16:01   and make it part of the game.

00:16:02   So we are currently this year,

00:16:05   as you remember we reset scores every year.

00:16:07   The scores for 2024, Steven is at 300 points in the quizzes

00:16:11   and Federico is at 100 points in the quizzes.

00:16:14   Well, today we're going to slightly adjust

00:16:17   the possible points available.

00:16:19   Like so last time we did this,

00:16:21   there was a five and 10 points on the line

00:16:23   for what we'll get to in a minute.

00:16:24   I'm going to change it because there's so few emoji.

00:16:27   It would make the game kind of inconsequential

00:16:28   if the maximum points scored were available

00:16:31   with just 60, it doesn't really seem that great.

00:16:34   So for every emoji that Federico gets correct,

00:16:39   he will score 15 points.

00:16:46   - Whoa.

00:16:47   - Okay.

00:16:48   For every emoji Federico gets wrong,

00:16:53   Steven scores 20 points.

00:16:55   - What?

00:16:56   No.

00:16:58   - Well, okay.

00:16:59   - It didn't do anything to deserve those points.

00:17:02   - Let's talk about this.

00:17:03   Whoa, whoa, hang on a second.

00:17:04   Last time we did this,

00:17:06   it was because it was just more likely

00:17:08   that Federico was going to get them correct.

00:17:11   So what if this time we just even it out at 20 and 20?

00:17:14   That's what we're going to do.

00:17:16   So Federico, you get 20 points.

00:17:18   If you get the name correct,

00:17:20   Steven gets 20 points if you get it wrong.

00:17:22   Last time as well, there was a bet put on the line

00:17:27   that I don't know if either of you,

00:17:29   if you want to get into this time

00:17:31   where Federico got 80% of them correct,

00:17:33   we doubled his points.

00:17:35   - Okay, I'll take that back.

00:17:38   - But you'll take that?

00:17:40   - Yeah.

00:17:41   Let's live.

00:17:42   It's only January, there's plenty of time.

00:17:43   Let's live it up.

00:17:45   - It didn't go in the other direction though.

00:17:47   - So we'll do that again.

00:17:48   So Federico, if you get 80% correct,

00:17:51   which I'll do the math in a minute,

00:17:53   then you'll get double points at the end of it.

00:17:55   - Hang on, that's what, 80% of six.

00:17:58   - Four?

00:17:59   - Probably.

00:18:00   4.8.

00:18:02   - I'm going to say four.

00:18:05   Federico, if you get four correct,

00:18:07   you'll get double points.

00:18:08   - Okay, okay.

00:18:09   - So there's a lot of points on the line here, all right?

00:18:11   - Let's do this.

00:18:12   - This will come back to heart you, Steven.

00:18:14   So, and I will say for the sake of it,

00:18:16   I'm getting the names of these emoji from Emojipedia.

00:18:21   - Okay.

00:18:23   - And I, as Quizzy Master, will decide how correct

00:18:27   I will want you to be, Federico.

00:18:29   - Okay, okay.

00:18:31   - So we start top left.

00:18:33   - Top left.

00:18:34   Okay, so I'm looking at this image, six emoji,

00:18:37   start top left.

00:18:38   Okay, so what I'm looking at is,

00:18:41   so the first one is very similar to the second one.

00:18:44   So I think I gotta understand the first one.

00:18:47   And if I get it wrong, I still have the other one.

00:18:50   So I'm looking at, this is not the name that I'm gonna give.

00:18:54   I'm looking at a head.

00:18:56   So these are two heads.

00:18:57   One is saying no, and the other is saying yes.

00:19:00   However, I don't think that Apple will,

00:19:03   or that the Unicode Consortium will label this

00:19:08   like saying yes or saying no.

00:19:10   These are heads shaking.

00:19:12   Now, are they shaking left or right,

00:19:14   or are they shaking horizontally?

00:19:17   Like what terminology are they using?

00:19:21   I'm gonna go with this first one.

00:19:22   Head shaking horizontally.

00:19:27   - If there's one thing Federico Fatici knows,

00:19:30   it is the way that the Unicode Consortium thinks.

00:19:34   Because this emoji is called head shaking horizontally.

00:19:38   That is 20 points for Federico.

00:19:39   - Okay, okay.

00:19:41   So assume, so if that's correct,

00:19:44   then the second one would be head shaking vertically.

00:19:47   - Would you believe it?

00:19:49   - No. - That is correct.

00:19:50   That's correct. - Okay.

00:19:51   (laughing)

00:19:52   - Can you imagine if they were like heads saying yes?

00:19:55   (laughing)

00:19:55   - Oh my God.

00:19:56   (laughing)

00:19:59   So the third one is interesting.

00:20:01   Because obviously in mythology, this is a phoenix.

00:20:05   However, I think there's a catch here.

00:20:09   Because I don't think, knowing these folks,

00:20:12   I don't think they would just label an emoji phoenix,

00:20:16   because it could be confused with the city.

00:20:20   Phoenix, Arizona, I wanna say.

00:20:21   Right, you gotta think how they think.

00:20:25   So they need to add some kind of descriptor.

00:20:30   Now, they wouldn't say red or orange phoenix,

00:20:34   because it's a gradient of color in this little emoji.

00:20:39   So they're gonna use some kind,

00:20:43   they're gonna have a descriptor

00:20:45   for the kind of creature that it is.

00:20:48   And my thinking is that obviously a phoenix in mythology,

00:20:54   it's a bird that rises from the ashes.

00:20:58   Now, I don't think they're gonna call it like flaming bird.

00:21:03   I don't think they're gonna,

00:21:05   I think they're gonna call it phoenix.

00:21:08   I'm gonna go with phoenix bird.

00:21:10   - So this emoji is just called phoenix.

00:21:14   - Oh my God.

00:21:15   - And I think I can't give it to you,

00:21:17   because you were there.

00:21:20   - Just called phoenix?

00:21:22   - It's just called phoenix.

00:21:23   - Really, they did it?

00:21:24   - You over thought, that's 20 points for Steven.

00:21:27   - Okay.

00:21:29   - You over thought, see this is where like,

00:21:32   you flew like a phoenix, I guess,

00:21:35   too close to the sun on that one.

00:21:36   - And I caught on fire.

00:21:37   - You caught on fire, you were a regular bird.

00:21:40   And you went to, I think that's how the phoenix works.

00:21:42   It was a regular bird, it went too high and caught on fire.

00:21:44   I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

00:21:46   - What happened, yeah.

00:21:47   - Yeah, emoji number four.

00:21:48   - So, number four.

00:21:52   So, okay.

00:21:54   So I'm looking at this by the color alone.

00:21:58   I think this is a piece of lime.

00:22:01   Could it be a piece of lemon?

00:22:03   Because I mean, I'm looking at it and it's green.

00:22:07   And it looks like a piece of lime.

00:22:09   Is it lime or lemon?

00:22:12   And is there a lemon emoji already?

00:22:15   Like, is this a slice of lime or a slice of lemon?

00:22:19   - You tell us. - It's green.

00:22:21   - Yeah, I'm not sure if you're actually asking me

00:22:25   these questions or we just talking through.

00:22:27   - I think he's like asking the universe.

00:22:29   - I'm asking the universe.

00:22:30   - He's looking to the phoenix and he's asking the question.

00:22:33   - The phoenix bird.

00:22:34   So this is lime.

00:22:37   - You're correct, that is lime.

00:22:39   I'm very happy they've added a lime emoji.

00:22:41   Like it's something that's been missing for a long time.

00:22:43   - There's a lemon emoji already, right?

00:22:44   - There is a lemon emoji, but the lemon emoji

00:22:46   is just a lemon.

00:22:47   So I'm actually happy they added the lime emoji

00:22:49   and it's a wedge because then they visually look

00:22:52   more different rather than just like,

00:22:53   oh, it's the green lemon.

00:22:55   - Okay, number four.

00:22:58   I mean, it's a mushroom, okay?

00:23:01   So it is a mushroom.

00:23:02   Do I need to call it anything else?

00:23:06   - Um, I'm just gonna go with mushroom

00:23:09   because I have no idea.

00:23:11   - I'm afraid Federico, there is already

00:23:13   an emoji called mushroom.

00:23:14   - And what is this?

00:23:15   - Brown mushroom.

00:23:17   - Oh my God.

00:23:18   - So currently you have got three correct.

00:23:21   You have 60 points.

00:23:22   Steven has 40 points.

00:23:24   You have the opportunity to double your points.

00:23:27   It rides on this last one, the sixth and final emoji.

00:23:32   If you get this correct, you will get 160 points total.

00:23:37   - So this is the, there's a,

00:23:41   so this is a broken version of an existing emoji.

00:23:45   There is an existing emoji.

00:23:46   This is a chain.

00:23:47   It's, my only concern is that it's also used

00:23:51   in some contexts for a link, right?

00:23:54   So it could be an emoji for a broken link,

00:23:57   but it could also, it just might as well be

00:24:00   like a broken chain.

00:24:01   - Wouldn't the broken link emoji be like a man

00:24:03   doing like road work, website under construction, you know?

00:24:08   - How else would I, like this is, this is a chain

00:24:15   and it's, I mean, they're doing the little signs

00:24:19   to show you that it's like, I'm gonna go with broken chain.

00:24:23   - At the end of the Jeremy's for 2024.

00:24:30   Steven scores 40 points.

00:24:34   Federico scores 160 points.

00:24:38   - Yes, yes.

00:24:38   - It is broken chain.

00:24:40   You got four out of six correct Federico.

00:24:44   Congratulations.

00:24:45   - Thank you, thank you.

00:24:46   - You are the emoji whisperer.

00:24:47   And that brings our total scores for the quizzes in 2024

00:24:51   to Steven with 340 points,

00:24:54   Federico closing the gap with 260 points.

00:24:57   Good points, whole Federico.

00:24:59   - I'm coming for you, Steven.

00:25:01   - And now I will say Unicode Consortium,

00:25:04   more emoji please.

00:25:05   Six emoji, what's going on?

00:25:07   What are you doing?

00:25:08   What's going on?

00:25:09   - Yeah, they just don't make them like they used to.

00:25:11   - They really don't.

00:25:12   - Out of all of these, I feel like Lime was,

00:25:18   and excuse the pun, the lowest hanging fruit here.

00:25:20   Like I don't think I needed a Phoenix emoji,

00:25:23   but the Lime, like you said, might.

00:25:24   - No, I genuinely don't know why there is a Phoenix emoji.

00:25:27   I don't know what that is for.

00:25:29   I don't know who asked for it.

00:25:31   I'm sure somebody did.

00:25:32   I'm sure I could find the paperwork,

00:25:34   but like, I don't really need to know.

00:25:35   But you know, why is this here?

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00:27:49   - Have either of you heard of the European Union?

00:27:53   - Is it a country?

00:27:56   - I'm not sure.

00:27:57   I'm not sure, but there is this thing out there

00:28:01   called the European Union

00:28:03   and it has a thing within it called the European Commission

00:28:07   and the European Commission created something called

00:28:09   the Digital Markets Act.

00:28:11   And that piece of paper is freaking havoc.

00:28:14   - Well, if there's one thing I know

00:28:17   is that Apple hates unions.

00:28:20   So this is consistent.

00:28:22   (laughing)

00:28:23   - There he goes.

00:28:25   There he goes.

00:28:26   If I had a bell, I'd ding it.

00:28:29   - I got a bell.

00:28:30   Everybody, well, where is it?

00:28:31   Here it is.

00:28:32   - You have to turn on that feature in Zoom.

00:28:34   (humming)

00:28:36   We're not gonna explain the DMA.

00:28:41   We're not gonna explain all the ins and outs

00:28:44   of Apple's response, I think.

00:28:46   'Cause one, I did it for 90 minutes in upgrade yesterday.

00:28:51   - Yeah, it was excellent.

00:28:53   - The longest chapter I've ever, thank you.

00:28:55   It was a one hour and 26 minute chapter

00:28:59   inside of the episode.

00:29:00   I don't think I've ever had a chapter that long before.

00:29:04   So read that.

00:29:06   John did a really great post on Mac stories.

00:29:10   You read that.

00:29:11   I'll also put a link to John Gruber's article

00:29:13   in the show notes as well.

00:29:14   That's out there.

00:29:15   You probably don't need to hear us talk about it anymore.

00:29:18   But I am keen to hear what the two of you think about it.

00:29:21   I think I'll start with you Federico,

00:29:22   'cause this actually truly can impact you,

00:29:26   whether the rest of us as users would just look

00:29:28   either longingly or with side eye at it.

00:29:33   - Side loading eye, you mean?

00:29:34   - Well, I actually think you'll find it's called

00:29:38   Alternative App Marketplace Eye.

00:29:40   - Oh yeah.

00:29:41   - Yeah.

00:29:42   - Yeah.

00:29:43   (laughing)

00:29:44   So I, wow.

00:29:46   So it's a very complicated topic.

00:29:49   My two cents right now on the politics of it is,

00:29:54   I don't think the European Union will be okay

00:30:00   with parts of Apple's proposal.

00:30:03   And especially, I mean, the core technology fee.

00:30:06   I think that is the one aspect

00:30:08   that Apple will probably have to rethink,

00:30:11   because I think there's so many issues in that fee

00:30:14   that just do not play well with any kind of free,

00:30:19   or not even necessarily open source app,

00:30:22   but just free apps that get more than 1 million users

00:30:26   that may end up having to pay this very expensive monthly

00:30:31   or annual, I guess, fees to Apple.

00:30:33   So I think that CTF part of the proposal

00:30:37   doesn't really sit well with me.

00:30:39   And I'd be surprised if the European Union accepts it.

00:30:42   But other than that, as a user,

00:30:46   so from that perspective,

00:30:47   from the perspective that I know as a user,

00:30:50   I absolutely cannot wait to see what happens here.

00:30:55   I think I will be in this weird scenario with my Apple ID,

00:31:00   where I will be using a US Apple ID,

00:31:04   but my phone will recognize me as a European user.

00:31:09   So I think I will be able, if my theory is correct,

00:31:12   and Apple will use a bunch of signals

00:31:14   to determine on your phone

00:31:15   what is the identifiable region of your device,

00:31:19   I think I will be able to access EU features

00:31:23   with a US Apple ID.

00:31:26   So I will be like a fake John Bore

00:31:29   who is traveling to Europe.

00:31:31   - I know how they're doing it.

00:31:32   - How are they doing it?

00:31:34   - So they've created a new system called Country D,

00:31:37   which is just hilarious.

00:31:40   And Country D.

00:31:41   - Country D.

00:31:44   - Country D.

00:31:45   - It's like D who just like listens

00:31:47   to a different type of music

00:31:49   and now they're Country D, you know, like they, anyway.

00:31:52   It is taking four things into account

00:31:55   to identify a region for you.

00:31:57   It is your Apple ID billing address.

00:32:00   - Okay, so that's US.

00:32:02   - Your country location.

00:32:04   - Italy.

00:32:05   - The region set in settings.

00:32:08   - US.

00:32:08   - And the device class.

00:32:11   - Italy.

00:32:12   So it's split for you now.

00:32:13   - Sorry, no, the device class is whether it's an iPhone

00:32:15   or not basically.

00:32:16   - Okay, well, interesting, we'll see.

00:32:20   - I have no, so I expect you with your current setup,

00:32:24   it's going to think you are an American in Italy.

00:32:27   - An American in Italy.

00:32:28   - So you will have the US App Store.

00:32:30   You will have to change those other two parts,

00:32:33   like your region and use your European Apple ID

00:32:37   to get sideloading stuff.

00:32:39   - Mr. Fake John Voorhees goes to Europe.

00:32:42   That will be my scenario.

00:32:43   - OTJ goes to Europe.

00:32:47   - Well, it's fake OTJ.

00:32:48   It's not, it's fake, actually it's fake J,

00:32:51   just it's not OTJ, you know.

00:32:53   - Wait, 'cause yeah, that would be like OFJ, right?

00:32:57   The one false John.

00:32:59   - The one false, OFJ.

00:33:00   - One false John.

00:33:01   - OFJ, but maybe if I just change my region setting

00:33:06   in settings to Italy,

00:33:09   that will be three against one in country D, you know?

00:33:13   If they just-- - I have no idea.

00:33:15   - If they just do that calculation,

00:33:17   like how many factors weigh against this being

00:33:19   an American person or a European citizen

00:33:22   with a US Apple ID, I don't know, we'll see.

00:33:26   - I bet the Apple ID billing address is the key.

00:33:28   - Really, you think so?

00:33:29   - Yeah, because like if you change,

00:33:32   if you're in Italy and change your region to Italy,

00:33:35   like it still knows-- - It doesn't matter.

00:33:39   It doesn't matter.

00:33:40   It doesn't change it.

00:33:41   The region setting, it only really changes

00:33:44   like how time is displayed

00:33:46   and like I still can keep using the US App Store.

00:33:49   So anyway, we'll get to that when, we'll see.

00:33:53   But I think I absolutely cannot wait,

00:33:57   especially for browsers, for non-WebKit browsers.

00:34:01   I think this, it'll be great to finally have some choice

00:34:07   in terms of not having to use WebKit

00:34:10   and being able to use Chromium,

00:34:12   being able to use other engines with actually browsers

00:34:16   that are not just reskins of Safari,

00:34:19   being able to do even small things like, you know,

00:34:24   install extensions that are not available in Safari

00:34:28   on a mobile browser,

00:34:30   which is something that I cannot do right now.

00:34:32   And of course, the third-party marketplaces,

00:34:36   you know, besides assuming that Epic

00:34:39   is gonna do an Epic Game Store,

00:34:40   that seems pretty much a given at this point.

00:34:42   - They have said they're going to do one.

00:34:44   - Exactly.

00:34:45   - They've already announced the Epic Game Store.

00:34:47   They've announced Fortnite will return

00:34:50   on the Epic Game Store.

00:34:52   - I am fully expecting for actually, like,

00:34:55   alternative app stores that include the kinds of apps

00:34:59   that you just cannot get from the app store,

00:35:01   like Dolphin, the Dolphin emulator for iOS.

00:35:05   There is an iOS version of Dolphin

00:35:07   that you can only install with Alt Store,

00:35:10   the semi-jailbreaking,

00:35:12   it's not really a jailbreaking method.

00:35:15   Those, like, emulators will be great to have on iOS

00:35:18   from relatively reputable sources based on MarketplaceKit.

00:35:23   So that would be fantastic.

00:35:25   - How sick is it gonna be to get, like, a 3DS emulator

00:35:30   on your iPhone with a backbone?

00:35:33   - Yes, exactly, exactly.

00:35:36   So yeah, I am pretty happy about all of this.

00:35:41   I know that it's not, in our circles,

00:35:45   it's maybe not a popular take,

00:35:47   especially in US-centric media

00:35:49   that like to poke fun at the European Union

00:35:52   and their draconian laws and complexities,

00:35:56   but I think it's actually great for us.

00:35:58   And so, and payment methods, you know,

00:36:02   all this stuff I am really happy with as a user.

00:36:06   I find it's funny because, like, they, you know,

00:36:11   whenever I read on this US-based blogs that,

00:36:14   oh, when you travel to Europe, you are bombarded

00:36:17   with GDPR notices and cookie concepts,

00:36:20   like, yeah, we see those,

00:36:22   but also we have a proper governmental entity

00:36:25   that, you know, checks those things for us.

00:36:27   And the benefit is like, you know,

00:36:29   you get all these options and you get data portability,

00:36:32   so there are plenty of things to it.

00:36:34   - There are cookie notices everywhere,

00:36:36   but GDPR really did scare people.

00:36:38   Like, it scared companies into being smarter

00:36:41   about how they handled it.

00:36:42   - Yeah, so.

00:36:44   The one thing I wish the European Commission would do

00:36:47   is manage the communication around the laws different.

00:36:51   So like, you mentioned it and lots of people

00:36:53   are talking about like, oh, the European Commission

00:36:56   are not gonna accept the CTF, right?

00:36:57   This is something that people think right now.

00:37:00   The problem is then they're not telling this to Apple, right?

00:37:02   And from the way that I understand it,

00:37:05   they won't tell them either.

00:37:07   Like, it will be solved in case law.

00:37:08   So Apple will launch, right, their proposal on March 7th,

00:37:14   and then it will come after that,

00:37:16   that maybe somebody will try and make a complaint

00:37:20   to the European Commission.

00:37:22   Then they will rule on whether the CTF should exist.

00:37:25   That is the way I understand that this happens.

00:37:28   I don't think that that is a effective

00:37:31   like, lawmaking process. - Got it.

00:37:33   - Like, I think it would make more sense

00:37:35   if Apple submitted this to the European Commission

00:37:38   and then they said yes or no,

00:37:40   rather than waiting to try and solve it in case law.

00:37:44   Like, I don't, like, if they are the ones asking for it,

00:37:48   I feel like they should be the ones judging it

00:37:52   by Apple making this submission.

00:37:54   Like, for everything that I've been able to understand

00:37:56   is like, this will just begin on March 7th

00:37:58   and then we see what happens after that.

00:38:00   Which just, it just feels inefficient

00:38:01   for everybody involved.

00:38:02   But. - That is true, yeah.

00:38:07   - Yeah, I think, to me, the idea of a fee to Apple

00:38:11   makes sense, but I think that there has to be some kind of,

00:38:14   there has to be money involved to the developer too, right?

00:38:18   Like, then the idea of the core technology fee

00:38:21   makes sense to me.

00:38:22   Because if an app is purely free

00:38:24   and it's never gonna make any money,

00:38:26   it can't exist if it has to pay, right?

00:38:30   Although again, right, like,

00:38:31   it still has to hit the million first,

00:38:33   but I think it would scare people.

00:38:35   People would be worried, right,

00:38:36   that they would be very successful

00:38:38   and like, it wouldn't work for them.

00:38:40   So, I feel like, with that amendment,

00:38:43   I think it would be fine.

00:38:45   To me, like, if you have a business model,

00:38:48   you are aiming to make money,

00:38:50   then you now owe Apple money as a licensing fee.

00:38:54   What do you think, Steven?

00:38:58   Welcome to App Development, by the way.

00:39:00   - Oh yeah, yeah, what a week, disclosure.

00:39:02   - I said to Fedor, can I text Steven during the week?

00:39:04   And I was like, on last week's episode,

00:39:06   we talk about, like, you know,

00:39:07   you're joining with David and you're like,

00:39:09   you're in this and sometimes we're gonna have to talk

00:39:11   about some stuff around App Development.

00:39:13   And then within those seven days,

00:39:16   all of this happens, probably the biggest thing,

00:39:19   like, from an effect in maybe like the last 10 years.

00:39:22   - Yeah, just right in the deep end.

00:39:26   I will echo first, whether Bill said,

00:39:31   the upgrade episode is really good.

00:39:32   It's the best explanation I've consumed over this.

00:39:37   And so thank you for your work on that.

00:39:39   I know that it was basically your whole weekend, I think.

00:39:42   So thank you for doing that.

00:39:44   Something Jason said on that episode really jumped out at me

00:39:49   and it was the idea that there's a whiteboard somewhere

00:39:52   at Apple's headquarters where they are drawing lines

00:39:56   as close to the rules as they can.

00:39:59   And that really resonated with me

00:40:02   because reading through this, I mean,

00:40:03   the fact that it took you so long to explain this

00:40:07   and to walk through the various, like, ins and outs of it,

00:40:12   but not even that, just like the amount of fine print,

00:40:14   the amount of trade-offs developers have to consider

00:40:19   is just, it feels like it's way more complicated

00:40:22   than it needed to be.

00:40:24   But that's because Apple is coloring

00:40:28   as close to the lines as possible here.

00:40:31   And I know that there's been a lot of conversation

00:40:36   around Apple's attitude towards third-party developers

00:40:40   and, you know, is that coming to play in the Vision Pro?

00:40:43   Like, I don't know.

00:40:44   But it is clear that Apple is going into this

00:40:47   as an unwilling participant in change.

00:40:50   And that continues to be disappointing.

00:40:53   I mean, the App Store was introduced in 2008.

00:40:56   This year, the App Store turns what?

00:41:01   That's 16 years old.

00:41:04   And while there have been changes,

00:41:06   the fundamental business setup is basically the same.

00:41:11   And the world has changed around it

00:41:15   in a way that makes it probably not tenable forever.

00:41:19   I do expect that other parts of the world

00:41:23   will want this or other things.

00:41:25   And we're gonna continue to see a fragmentation

00:41:28   of how iOS works depending on where you live

00:41:32   or where your Apple ID thinks you live

00:41:34   in Federico and John's cases.

00:41:36   But yeah, it's just messy.

00:41:38   And I think at the end of the day,

00:41:41   a lot of developers that we know who's apps

00:41:43   that we get awards in our shows and trophies

00:41:46   for Mac stories, like a lot of indie developers

00:41:49   aren't gonna really consider this

00:41:50   because the potential trade-offs aren't worth it.

00:41:53   Or the risk of that core technology fee

00:41:56   coming back to bite them is not worth it.

00:41:59   But for companies like Epic,

00:42:03   who have a game store already on Android,

00:42:05   yeah, of course they're gonna do it.

00:42:08   There are questions, right?

00:42:09   Because one of the stipulations is

00:42:11   you can't have a one company store.

00:42:14   So Meta can't open a store with just as apps.

00:42:17   And so what does that mean?

00:42:19   Like, will they lump in with somebody else?

00:42:22   I suspect if we fast forward a year from now,

00:42:26   there may be two or three reasonably sized

00:42:30   third-party marketplaces out there,

00:42:32   but the bulk of the business will still take place

00:42:36   in Apple's app store.

00:42:38   And you only go to those alternatives

00:42:39   if something you want isn't available in Apple's app store.

00:42:44   Because another condition of this is

00:42:47   Apple's rules around what they do and don't allow

00:42:51   in their store in terms of content.

00:42:54   So apps that include adult material or gambling,

00:42:59   or there's a list of things they don't approve.

00:43:02   Apple can no longer,

00:43:04   well, they can't enforce those rules

00:43:06   in third-party marketplaces.

00:43:08   And so it may be that if you want something like that,

00:43:10   you gotta go elsewhere.

00:43:13   But I think for most people, most of the time,

00:43:15   this probably isn't even gonna make a big impact to them.

00:43:17   And that I find interesting.

00:43:21   Like we're going through all of this,

00:43:23   and the EU is trying to make things more competitive,

00:43:28   but I don't think it's quite there.

00:43:31   And I think for most people, it'll just be business as usual

00:43:34   and there'll be a few notable exceptions to that.

00:43:38   Yeah.

00:43:39   - You mentioned Epic.

00:43:40   Like the Epic game store,

00:43:43   I don't believe they have one for Android.

00:43:45   It's on PC.

00:43:46   - Okay.

00:43:47   - And I don't say that to correct you.

00:43:50   It's more that just like they said it's coming to iOS.

00:43:52   So to fit with these rules,

00:43:53   they have to spin up like a bunch of agreements, right?

00:43:56   Like they have to get other games,

00:43:58   which may be very possible for them

00:44:00   because they have lots of very good relationships,

00:44:04   but they have all of their own games

00:44:05   and Epic own a bunch of games,

00:44:07   which I hope some of them as well as "Fortnite,"

00:44:10   but you might get "Rocket League"

00:44:11   and some of the other games come to iOS,

00:44:13   but they would need to bring external parties

00:44:16   into the system too,

00:44:18   which I'm sure they would do

00:44:19   'cause they have a system of which to do this, right?

00:44:22   Like the Epic game store is like the app store.

00:44:24   It's like, it's a competitor to Steam basically, right?

00:44:27   People submit and also Epic pay

00:44:30   to bring people to the platform.

00:44:32   But like, it's kind of interesting that like,

00:44:34   they've said they're gonna do this

00:44:35   where they have like six weeks

00:44:38   to like actually set up an entire system

00:44:40   to allow for iOS games to try and join the platform.

00:44:43   And also I imagine probably no one will want to do it.

00:44:46   So maybe Epic's gonna have to start cutting some checks

00:44:48   for iOS as well as they do for PC.

00:44:51   So it could be interesting.

00:44:52   'Cause like if you're a game,

00:44:54   especially if you're a game maker,

00:44:55   like I don't know if it's like beneficial

00:45:00   to do this right now,

00:45:02   unless again, like you're the type of game

00:45:04   that doesn't exist on iOS 'cause it can't.

00:45:07   And then I would wonder would Epic accept it

00:45:09   in the Epic game store anyway?

00:45:10   Like, I don't know.

00:45:12   - Yeah, who knows?

00:45:14   I did wanna ask the two of y'all

00:45:15   what you think about the game streaming changes.

00:45:19   'Cause those are changes to the App Store globally.

00:45:22   You two were like the people in my life I go to

00:45:26   for gaming commentary.

00:45:28   So what, Mike, if you could explain that rule change

00:45:32   and maybe what the two of you think that's gonna bring

00:45:34   or what it means.

00:45:36   - Well, previously to now,

00:45:39   a service like Game Pass, so Xbox Game Pass,

00:45:45   would be not impossible to have launched on iOS,

00:45:49   but not simple either.

00:45:51   Because what Apple wanted was,

00:45:54   this is a pure streaming service, right?

00:45:56   So there's no games actually being properly downloaded

00:46:00   to a device, it's all played over the web, right?

00:46:02   And you're streaming, like it's game streaming

00:46:04   from the cloud.

00:46:05   What Apple wanted was for Microsoft to submit every title

00:46:10   on Game Pass as individual games,

00:46:13   and you would download each one of them,

00:46:15   which was just like completely went around the whole point

00:46:19   of what Game Pass is, which is like,

00:46:20   imagine basically if Apple said to Netflix,

00:46:23   you have to submit every movie as an individual app, right?

00:46:26   Like that's effectively what they were asking Microsoft

00:46:28   to do, so Microsoft said they weren't gonna do it.

00:46:31   Apple's now said you can now submit a single app

00:46:34   and essentially like you've got to still abide by the rules.

00:46:39   So every game is still abide by the rules.

00:46:41   They haven't really been super clear about if or how

00:46:43   they're gonna try and like,

00:46:45   I think that this is kind of like a just don't mess around

00:46:48   and we won't take you down, I think is similar

00:46:50   to how they would do a Netflix, right?

00:46:52   Like, you know, 'cause they can't actually review

00:46:55   all of the content on Netflix, right?

00:46:56   There has to be a kind of like a mutually assured destruction

00:47:00   kind of thing with that.

00:47:01   I expect they'll do a similar thing

00:47:03   with the game streaming services.

00:47:05   And that rolls out to everyone it's available now.

00:47:09   The rule is now available, they can do that,

00:47:10   and they just have to make sure that the age rating

00:47:13   for the highest rating of any game,

00:47:17   or if they have a NC-17 game,

00:47:20   that has to be the rating on the App Store app

00:47:22   for Xbox Game Pass.

00:47:24   So I think I saw a headline today.

00:47:28   I wish I could, I'm trying to find it now

00:47:31   that Microsoft seemed to be unhappy,

00:47:34   but I think it might have been about

00:47:35   the core technology fee.

00:47:37   I'm not sure if it was about this, but as of right now,

00:47:41   I don't think Microsoft has said one way or another

00:47:43   as to whether they would be willing to bring Game Pass,

00:47:46   but I kind of feel like it would be very strange

00:47:50   if they didn't, right?

00:47:51   Like this is, it seems like they've gotten

00:47:54   what they're asking for, but I don't believe

00:47:57   you have to accept the new business terms to do this,

00:48:00   but maybe you do, maybe that's the problem.

00:48:02   Like I actually don't, I don't know what their concern is.

00:48:05   If I can find this article, I'll put it in the show notes.

00:48:07   - Okay.

00:48:09   - So yeah, that's changes coming with the DMA.

00:48:12   This rolls out in March, and like you said, Mike,

00:48:14   there, it's very well, there may be additional changes

00:48:17   as this gets sorted out in courts

00:48:20   and as other governments look at this and be like,

00:48:23   oh, maybe we want something like that too.

00:48:26   - All right, I found what I was looking for.

00:48:28   Basically, they are saying the core technology fee

00:48:31   is not something that they agree with,

00:48:34   and even the Xbox president says,

00:48:36   we believe constructive conversations drive change,

00:48:39   that Apple's new policy is a step in the wrong direction.

00:48:42   So they're unhappy, I don't know if they're gonna,

00:48:45   what they're gonna do, but they seem to be unhappy

00:48:49   about this because obviously they would like

00:48:51   to be able to be free to do whatever they want.

00:48:53   - This episode of Connected is brought to you by Squarespace,

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00:50:30   Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of Connected

00:50:33   and Relay FM.

00:50:34   It is the day of Vision Pro reviews as we record this.

00:50:40   We've got a bunch of links in the show notes,

00:50:43   MKBHD, The Verge, Joanna Stern at The Wall Street Journal,

00:50:47   iJustine, Brian Tong, lots of great stuff out there.

00:50:51   And I kind of wanted to hear from y'all

00:50:53   like your sort of high level takeaways.

00:50:57   Let's start maybe with the unboxing experience

00:51:00   and sort of how Apple presents it,

00:51:02   because that all looks super high end and super cool.

00:51:05   - And super big.

00:51:06   - Big box.

00:51:08   - It's a big old box.

00:51:09   I'm sorry for anyone who's getting it shipped.

00:51:12   Big old box.

00:51:13   - Yeah, it's a giant box.

00:51:16   That thing is gonna cost me hundreds of dollars

00:51:18   to get it shipped.

00:51:20   I mean, look at that thing, right?

00:51:22   But it looks nice.

00:51:24   It looks very nice.

00:51:25   - And there's a lot in the box, right?

00:51:27   Like we knew this already, but like there's just a lot

00:51:31   of stuff which I think is good because of how expensive it is.

00:51:34   You want to have everything.

00:51:36   And like, I actually am pretty pleased

00:51:39   that they included the power adapter

00:51:40   because it would have just been too many headlines, right?

00:51:43   Like it costs three, this $3,000 product

00:51:48   didn't include a power adapter.

00:51:50   It would have been every headline.

00:51:51   - You should write headlines.

00:51:52   You should write headlines for other websites.

00:51:55   - You want me to do it for you?

00:51:56   - Sure, why not?

00:51:57   You can be MikeGPT.

00:51:59   - This app has that one trick.

00:52:02   That's getting to me.

00:52:03   (laughing)

00:52:05   - Good job, good job.

00:52:06   I know I really like how all the different accessories

00:52:10   all laid out and I'm especially a fan of the design

00:52:14   of the carrying case, even though it's giant.

00:52:18   I really like the white aesthetic.

00:52:21   I think Steven, you tweeted that it reminded you

00:52:23   of like the Apollo era.

00:52:26   - Yeah, I was trying to understand

00:52:28   what does this reminds me of and it's that.

00:52:30   So I agree that design, sort of cushiony feel.

00:52:35   Yeah, that I really dig.

00:52:39   And also how it's--

00:52:40   - Isn't it interesting?

00:52:41   I like it too, but it really sticks out.

00:52:45   Like they don't make anything else

00:52:46   that looks even remotely like this.

00:52:48   - No, they don't.

00:52:49   - Interesting.

00:52:50   - And also the, what's it called?

00:52:53   Like the cover, like the front cover.

00:52:56   I think that I'm gonna use a lot.

00:52:57   Like when I leave the device just sort of laying around

00:52:59   around the house, that I'm gonna use a lot.

00:53:03   But I'm also looking forward to third party versions

00:53:05   of both the case and the front cover.

00:53:08   - I think Nilay's review at The Verge

00:53:11   was the most comprehensive.

00:53:14   It's a written review and a video where Marques

00:53:18   and some other sort of set this up

00:53:20   as like impressions on boxing.

00:53:22   I don't know which way is right,

00:53:23   but I do expect The Verge to revisit it as things evolve.

00:53:28   The thing that jumped out at me,

00:53:30   I think the most in his review was talking about pass-through.

00:53:35   So this is the Vision Pro cameras capturing the space

00:53:39   around you and feeding it into your displays.

00:53:41   And he mentioned several times,

00:53:43   like you have the feeling you're looking through a camera.

00:53:46   You're not necessarily looking at real life.

00:53:48   And there's some trade-offs with that.

00:53:50   And the most interesting one to me was

00:53:53   if the Vision Pro only shows about half the colors

00:53:55   we can see as actual humans.

00:53:58   And I think in iJustine's video,

00:54:00   like some what she's wearing a pink sweater

00:54:02   or like a long sleeve shirt.

00:54:03   And the pink the camera sees on her

00:54:07   versus the pink we see through the screen capture

00:54:10   of the Vision Pro, like they're different.

00:54:12   Like it's not as vibrant, it's not as bright.

00:54:15   And I just wonder how that's gonna be.

00:54:18   Like, is the world gonna be a little bit muted?

00:54:20   I'm out of the three of us,

00:54:21   I'm the only one who hasn't tried it.

00:54:23   So maybe this wasn't as groundbreaking to y'all,

00:54:26   but that definitely sort of caught my attention.

00:54:29   - From my jam, I remember that it was like

00:54:31   a very nondescript kind of boring room.

00:54:34   And now in hindsight, I kind of wonder

00:54:37   if they didn't put any particularly colorful piece

00:54:40   of furniture inside the room on purpose

00:54:43   so that you wouldn't notice like, oh wait,

00:54:44   that bright pink or red color is kind of different.

00:54:48   Well, I believe there was like, it was a gray sofa

00:54:53   and some very neutral.

00:54:55   - Yeah, but that is also their color palette though, right?

00:54:57   Like it looked like an Apple store in there.

00:55:00   - Right, yeah, it looked like that.

00:55:01   So it was hard to tell.

00:55:03   - The color thing was surprising to me,

00:55:05   but like I remember at the time saying that

00:55:08   it looked like I was looking through a low light camera,

00:55:13   right, like a camera in low light,

00:55:15   which gets a little grainy.

00:55:16   Like that's what it looked like to me.

00:55:18   But the picture quality and the resolution

00:55:23   and the responsiveness, I think is more important

00:55:28   than the color accuracy.

00:55:30   Like to get it to look like you're looking,

00:55:34   for the only downside to be there's not enough color.

00:55:37   - It's a pretty good downside, yes.

00:55:39   - Color's not gonna make you motion sick.

00:55:42   - Exactly, and like Neil, I did mention that

00:55:44   like it can happen, right?

00:55:45   You know, it can happen.

00:55:47   It can still happen, people need to just be aware

00:55:49   that like you might get surprised.

00:55:52   This thing about like the color,

00:55:53   and so it kind of encapsulates the way that I feel

00:55:56   about all of these reviews.

00:55:58   Like I watched this one, I watched Joanna Stern's.

00:56:00   I haven't looked at Brian Tong's yet

00:56:03   'cause it's the longest, but that's--

00:56:04   - It's an hour.

00:56:05   - Yeah, I'm really excited to watch it,

00:56:07   but I have not been able to do it

00:56:10   'cause you know, just the time that these came out

00:56:11   and the time that we were recording.

00:56:13   But it kind of, the color thing kind of encapsulates

00:56:17   the way that I'm feeling about these reviews in general,

00:56:20   which is I 100% expected there to be downsides

00:56:23   about this product.

00:56:24   Like I did not think that it would be perfect

00:56:28   by any stretch, but the ways in which it is not perfect

00:56:32   are the ways that I expected,

00:56:35   and the ways in which it is good

00:56:37   are the ways that I hoped.

00:56:38   - Yeah, he's very, this Michael guy is very good

00:56:42   at summarizing things.

00:56:43   - I'm good at headlines and also summaries.

00:56:46   - And you are one feature away

00:56:49   from being a Chai GPT competitor, my friend.

00:56:51   (laughing)

00:56:54   No, I really liked Joanna's review

00:56:57   because I think that review did a really good job

00:57:00   at conveying what it feels like

00:57:03   to use the Vision Pro in real life.

00:57:05   And my favorite moment from the review, from the video,

00:57:08   was when Joanna tried to cook while wearing the Vision Pro.

00:57:13   And the moment when I went, "Oh man, that's so sick.

00:57:16   "I cannot wait to get this device,"

00:57:19   was when she took the Crouton cooking app,

00:57:23   excellent app by Devin Davis.

00:57:27   And she put the timers, like the individual timers

00:57:31   for different dishes, for different things

00:57:35   that she was cooking on the stove right above the pots.

00:57:39   So that, and that felt like the moment for me.

00:57:42   You were like, "Yeah, I mean, maybe you're not supposed

00:57:44   "to cook while wearing the Vision Pro."

00:57:48   But you look at that with--

00:57:51   - It's cool.

00:57:52   - Pieces of computer UI that are contextually placed

00:57:57   on top of a real life object.

00:57:59   And you're like, "Hmm, that's very cool.

00:58:01   "That's very neat."

00:58:03   But then also little things like, all right,

00:58:06   so, you know, Neil, I was like,

00:58:07   "There's not really any window management."

00:58:09   I was like, "I expected that to be the case."

00:58:10   But he's like, "Oh, but I can have like a million windows."

00:58:12   And I'm like, "Yes."

00:58:14   You know, it's like, what I expected was there wasn't gonna

00:58:17   be great window management tools,

00:58:19   because there's not third party ones,

00:58:20   and they're not gonna allow that.

00:58:22   But what I was worried about is there might be

00:58:24   like a three window safari limit, right?

00:58:28   But he's got them everywhere.

00:58:30   Or like when he's like, "Oh, bad news

00:58:32   "about the Mac experience.

00:58:37   "I'll leave one display."

00:58:38   And it's like, "I knew this, so I'm not bothered about that."

00:58:41   But it's like, "Oh, but universal control works."

00:58:43   I'm like, "Yes."

00:58:45   Right, 'cause this was a thing I didn't know.

00:58:46   And the whole time I've been like,

00:58:48   "Oh, I love my keyboards, but like, they're not gonna work

00:58:51   "because they're all mechanical keyboards

00:58:53   "that are plugged in by cables."

00:58:54   Which is like, "But if they're connected to my Mac,

00:58:57   "it will work, and then I can use my nice keyboard

00:58:59   "with the Vision Pro at my desk."

00:59:01   - Yeah, so the thing I posted on Mastodon

00:59:04   and then I sent to you guys, I wrote like,

00:59:07   "Of all things, I bet it's the Vision Pro

00:59:11   "that's going to make me a Mac user again."

00:59:14   And so that's something I was thinking

00:59:17   while watching these videos.

00:59:19   So the problem for me will be that the integration

00:59:24   with the traditional computing platforms

00:59:27   is gonna be Mac only with the Vision Pro.

00:59:29   You can only sort of transfer your Mac screen

00:59:34   to the Vision Pro.

00:59:35   You cannot do the same with an iPad Pro,

00:59:38   which is a pretty big miss, in my opinion.

00:59:40   However, I wanna see if maybe they could do the same

00:59:43   with the next iPad Pro, although I doubt it.

00:59:46   Ideally, I should be able to do what these reviewers

00:59:50   have been doing with their MacBooks

00:59:53   and view an iPadOS virtual display inside the Vision Pro,

00:59:58   in Vision OS.

00:59:59   Right now, that's not possible.

01:00:01   I wonder if it will be possible with the next iPad Pro,

01:00:04   but I know that for now,

01:00:07   I'm just gonna use the MacBook Air more

01:00:09   because that's the only sort of non-Vision OS

01:00:12   computer experience that I can see inside Vision OS.

01:00:17   And sure, I mean, in proper lighting conditions,

01:00:21   I guess I could just look at my iPad Pro's display.

01:00:24   Nilay did this great test where he showed

01:00:27   looking at the iPhone with proper lighting,

01:00:30   and it was fine via the video passthrough of the Vision Pro.

01:00:35   And he could make out text, and he could scroll.

01:00:37   There was no latency.

01:00:38   That was great.

01:00:39   The system started struggling in low light, obviously.

01:00:42   So that is also something I'm thinking about,

01:00:45   like, well, if I'm using the Vision Pro at night,

01:00:48   do I wanna still turn on a light around me

01:00:51   so to make sure that I don't run into blurry text

01:00:55   or too much noise in video passthrough?

01:00:59   But still, the idea of you can see your Mac apps

01:01:04   in a virtual Mac desktop in Vision OS,

01:01:08   that's gonna make me use the MacBook Air a lot more,

01:01:10   unless that also becomes possible with iPad OS.

01:01:14   I mean, technically, if you use a Vision Pro,

01:01:18   you're still using an iPad.

01:01:20   Like, technically, you know?

01:01:22   Like, we can get this on a technicality if you want.

01:01:25   - Big brain.

01:01:26   You know, you don't need an iPad Pro

01:01:27   when you're using Vision OS.

01:01:29   - They're way the same, so it's the same experience.

01:01:32   - There you go.

01:01:32   - Yeah.

01:01:33   - 'Cause, again, Neil, he mentioned in his review

01:01:37   that Apple told him that Vision OS was based on iPad OS,

01:01:41   which I didn't remember this, or I didn't know this.

01:01:45   Like, I feel like I could've assumed it,

01:01:47   but for it to be said so clearly, I guess it's important.

01:01:50   But my hope is, though, that that's the base,

01:01:53   and now it goes into its own.

01:01:55   Like, it continues going into places that are its own.

01:01:58   I don't want them to be tied together.

01:01:59   That's not what I want.

01:02:01   - It really feels like Vision OS

01:02:03   is the best possible version of iPad OS today.

01:02:06   - Sure.

01:02:07   - Like, as many windows as you want,

01:02:10   a way to view Mac OS

01:02:12   and the same familiar app ecosystem, right?

01:02:17   It's the ultimate version of iPad OS,

01:02:19   but it's not an iPad.

01:02:19   - Well, it's literally what you've been asking for

01:02:21   for the last two, three years, right?

01:02:23   Is these features on iPad OS.

01:02:25   - It's the ultimate version of iPad OS.

01:02:28   Like, if you think about it, right now,

01:02:30   the Vision Pro is the real iPad Pro.

01:02:32   - The best iPad Pro is the one you have on your face,

01:02:37   as they say. - Yes.

01:02:38   - As they say.

01:02:39   - See, that's also a very good headline.

01:02:42   You two should team up together and do a company,

01:02:45   but not a podcast in one, one that writes headlines

01:02:48   for other new venture ideas.

01:02:51   - Maybe I can be an editor for Project Tapestry

01:02:53   in the future.

01:02:54   - Yeah, there you go.

01:02:56   - One thing that I am worried about is text entry.

01:03:01   I know you just mentioned the universal control stuff.

01:03:04   The virtual keyboard kinda doesn't seem that awesome,

01:03:08   but then I was reminded of Federico's beloved

01:03:12   12 South accessory, the Magic Bridge,

01:03:16   where you snap in a trackpad and keyboard together,

01:03:19   and I bought one, and I have a trackpad on the way.

01:03:23   I already have a spare keyboard.

01:03:24   I think it's gonna be like my dedicated

01:03:26   Vision Pro input system.

01:03:28   So I can sit on the couch and have the keyboard

01:03:30   and trackpad all nice and neat.

01:03:32   - Yep, yep.

01:03:34   On Mastodon, Castean, developer Castean,

01:03:40   I don't remember their name, their Castean,

01:03:43   or Mastodon is the username,

01:03:45   posted this excellent guide, it's a GitHub link.

01:03:49   They did some truly astounding work

01:03:54   in trying to find any good third-party

01:03:59   keyboard trackpad combos

01:04:03   that are not what you just mentioned, Steven,

01:04:06   an Apple Magic keyboard and an Apple Magic trackpad

01:04:09   sort of tied together.

01:04:10   Are there any third-party ways

01:04:14   to have that sort of lap usage setup?

01:04:18   And there is one way you guys are gonna love it.

01:04:22   The one way that is possible right now is

01:04:26   an old and discontinued bridge keyboard.

01:04:32   Hold on, hold on, it gets better.

01:04:36   That you can only get, I believe from Amazon US,

01:04:40   specifically it's the older version.

01:04:42   The one with the weird hinges,

01:04:44   with the weird clips where you put your iPad inside.

01:04:48   So it's the 12.9 Pro Plus.

01:04:51   It's not the Max Plus, it's the old Pro Plus model.

01:04:55   And the reason is that keyboard,

01:04:58   if you can get one from Amazon with the latest firmware,

01:05:02   remember, we've been over this before,

01:05:05   the bridge website no longer offers a firmware update tool.

01:05:10   So if you can get a unit from Amazon US

01:05:13   that just so happened to have the latest firmware,

01:05:18   that keyboard has the proper trackpad descriptor

01:05:24   that lets you use multi-touch gestures with VisionOS.

01:05:28   Yeah, I'm pretty sure the best trackpad

01:05:30   is Apple's trackpad, I think is what we've learned

01:05:32   from this version.

01:05:33   Honestly, yes.

01:05:35   But all this to say, I am trying my luck with this method,

01:05:39   with the KSTN method.

01:05:41   I put in an order for an old bridge keyboard.

01:05:44   - Oh, this is the person who-

01:05:47   - Yes, making the HDMI over the network stream now.

01:05:52   - No, isn't this the person who did the,

01:05:55   they were the first person that we saw

01:05:58   that took the touch ID out of the-

01:06:02   - Oh, it's possible?

01:06:03   Yeah, KSTN. - Yeah, yeah.

01:06:04   - KSTN, yeah. - KSTN, yeah.

01:06:06   Yes, all kinds of cool things.

01:06:08   But also making a cloud streaming gaming app for VisionOS.

01:06:12   So there's that.

01:06:14   - Multi-touch.

01:06:15   - Yeah, so I am waiting for this old bridge keyboard

01:06:19   from Amazon US, it's coming Monday.

01:06:20   - Oh, you actually went for it.

01:06:22   - Oh yeah, I mean, you know me, right?

01:06:25   I gotta do it.

01:06:26   We'll see, we'll see.

01:06:29   But yeah, I was surprised by that text input preview UI.

01:06:34   I think that's something new that we hadn't seen before.

01:06:38   Like when you're looking at your,

01:06:40   so if you're wearing the Vision Pro

01:06:41   and you look down at a keyboard

01:06:43   and you're typing on the keyboard,

01:06:44   like a Bluetooth keyboard, for example,

01:06:46   a little sort of contextual UI pops up above the keyboard

01:06:51   to show you a close-up preview of the text you're entering.

01:06:55   That's very nicely done.

01:06:56   - So last minute hype check.

01:06:59   Do the reviews change how we feel about our pre-orders?

01:07:02   - Not really.

01:07:04   I'm as excited, well, no, yes.

01:07:07   I am more excited than before, I would say.

01:07:09   Like Mike said, it is limited in the ways

01:07:13   I thought it was gonna be limited.

01:07:14   It is expensive in all the ways

01:07:15   I knew it was gonna be expensive.

01:07:17   And, but it seems like these reviews

01:07:21   have removed the last doubts that I had

01:07:24   in terms of how many windows can I open?

01:07:26   Like, can I really fill my workspace all around me

01:07:30   with windows all over the place?

01:07:31   And I can do that, and that made me more excited, yes.

01:07:37   I'm just as excited as I was before.

01:07:39   It kind of hasn't changed.

01:07:40   'Cause my, I'm not really necessarily tied

01:07:45   to like really feeling like this has to work.

01:07:50   I'm just excited for the ride.

01:07:52   Like that's kind of where I am.

01:07:54   Like whatever ends up happening.

01:07:56   I will say one thing that I was surprised about,

01:07:58   'cause my expectations are so low,

01:08:00   I think the personas look better

01:08:01   than I thought they were coming to.

01:08:03   Even when people were saying how bad they looked,

01:08:05   I thought it was kind of impressive

01:08:07   how much they looked like.

01:08:08   So there's amongst a couple of reviews,

01:08:11   there's like a call that happened between MKBHD,

01:08:14   Neil I. Patel, and Joanna Stern,

01:08:15   and like weird and wonderful things happened during that.

01:08:18   But even though they didn't look right,

01:08:21   they did actually look like them,

01:08:23   which was very interesting to me.

01:08:27   And there was a lot of weird stuff happening.

01:08:28   Like maybe they can do something to try and make it better,

01:08:31   but like I've been very down on it.

01:08:33   So like that actually surprised me

01:08:34   because it looked better than I thought.

01:08:36   But yeah, in general, I am as excited as I was before,

01:08:40   but I think of the three of us,

01:08:42   Steven was the least excited.

01:08:43   So I think I'm actually pretty intrigued to know

01:08:46   if your feeling has been changed.

01:08:49   - I have more of a feeling of this is really cool tech,

01:08:53   but I'm not sure what it's for yet.

01:08:55   Like that feeling has been amplified through this.

01:08:58   So yeah, we'll see.

01:09:00   I will say I found it very interesting

01:09:03   that all the reviews I watched like talked or showed,

01:09:06   like, hey, you can bring a Mac into this.

01:09:08   And like Federico said earlier, that's really interesting,

01:09:12   but we'll see.

01:09:13   The hardware is very exciting.

01:09:16   Tune back in for the software, I guess.

01:09:18   Well, that does it for this week.

01:09:22   Next time we talk to you will be changed people.

01:09:27   - Hey, maybe.

01:09:27   I don't know, yeah, to what's gonna happen with my shipment.

01:09:30   - Yeah, I'll be a changed person.

01:09:32   Mike will be a changed person.

01:09:34   - Yeah, Federico might be a very upset person.

01:09:38   - I may be, I may be a changed person

01:09:41   with a much lighter wallet.

01:09:44   So we'll see.

01:09:46   - Well, until then you can follow us all online.

01:09:50   Federico is the editor-in-chief of maxstories.net.

01:09:53   You can follow him on Mastodon as Vitichi at maxstories.net

01:09:57   and on Threads as Vitichi, that's V-I-T-I-C-C-I.

01:10:01   You can follow Mike's work on other shows here

01:10:04   on Relay FM.

01:10:05   Seriously, go check out that upgrade episode.

01:10:07   You can also find Mike's work over at Cortex Brand.

01:10:10   Mike is on Mastodon as iMike at mike.social

01:10:13   and iMike on Threads.

01:10:15   You can follow me as ismh86 on Threads

01:10:19   or ismh@eworld.social on Mastodon.

01:10:21   I co-host Mac Power Users here on Relay

01:10:24   each and every Sunday.

01:10:25   And my writing is over at 512pixels.net.

01:10:28   I'd like to thank our sponsors this week,

01:10:30   ZocDoc and Squarespace.

01:10:32   And until next time, say goodbye.

01:10:35   Arrivederci.

01:10:36   Cheerio.

01:10:37   Bye, y'all.