Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC]

00:00:07 ◼   ► >> From Relay FM, this is Connected, Episode 486.

00:00:11 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Notion, Squarespace, and Ecamm.

00:00:14 ◼   ► I'm one of your co-hosts, Federico Vittucci, and

00:00:16 ◼   ► it's my pleasure to introduce to the show Mr. Steven Hackett.

00:00:19 ◼   ► Hello, Steven.

00:00:20 ◼   ► >> Hey Federico, how are you?

00:00:22 ◼   ► >> I am doing fantastic, thank you.

00:00:25 ◼   ► >> Good.

00:00:26 ◼   ► And I have the pleasure of being joined by Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Boy howdy.

00:00:30 ◼   ► It's me, in the flesh.

00:00:33 ◼   ► >> In the flesh, well, in the Zoom flesh, I guess.

00:00:35 ◼   ► >> Well, I am in flesh, you know.

00:00:37 ◼   ► >> Okay.

00:00:38 ◼   ► >> I can't speak for what you're experiencing.

00:00:40 ◼   ► Steven, would you like to start the show with some follow up?

00:00:44 ◼   ► >> Hum.

00:00:45 ◼   ► >> Stop it.

00:00:46 ◼   ► No.

00:00:47 ◼   ► >> Okay. >> It's banished.

00:00:50 ◼   ► We've set that off to banish that.

00:00:51 ◼   ► >> The pro hum people are still writing in.

00:00:55 ◼   ► I am pro hum, I just want to say, on the record.

00:00:58 ◼   ► >> That's good.

00:00:58 ◼   ► >> You're a hum-thruther, I guess.

00:01:01 ◼   ► >> Yes, yes.

00:01:04 ◼   ► And until we get Mike on board, our friend, really I think everyone's friend,

00:01:09 ◼   ► Rob Knight, has made a website called Humminize?

00:01:15 ◼   ► Humminize?

00:01:16 ◼   ► >> It's Humminize.

00:01:17 ◼   ► >> Humminize?

00:01:17 ◼   ► >> Humminize.

00:01:19 ◼   ► See, this is the thing.

00:01:20 ◼   ► You say you're pro hum, but you don't remember anything about it, you know?

00:01:24 ◼   ► >> Mm.

00:01:26 ◼   ► >> Mm.

00:01:27 ◼   ► >> I remember the good times we had before you took it away.

00:01:30 ◼   ► >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:01:31 ◼   ► >> Like, I'm imagining Steven remembering the good times,

00:01:33 ◼   ► like a slow-mo sort of flashback montage of us,

00:01:38 ◼   ► >> It would be like one of those songs, like, you know, do you remember?

00:01:42 ◼   ► And if it's the whole thing is hummed, like,

00:01:44 ◼   ► >> And it's us, humming in front of a microphone.

00:01:49 ◼   ► >> And that's the whole thing.

00:01:52 ◼   ► >> For some reason, Mike is running in slow motion.

00:01:55 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:01:55 ◼   ► >> I'm humming in slow motion.

00:01:58 ◼   ► >> Rob has made a website where you can relive the glory days.

00:02:01 ◼   ► You can click on us, you can click on a bell, you can have it do it automatically.

00:02:06 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:02:07 ◼   ► >> Sometimes bits, they have to go to the, like, the bit farm in the sky, you know?

00:02:14 ◼   ► Like, you got to, before they get too old and tired, you just got to retire them.

00:02:19 ◼   ► And that's what we're doing with harmonizing.

00:02:21 ◼   ► It's,

00:02:22 ◼   ► >> I don't mean to give you more work, Rob, but this website should really have an API

00:02:28 ◼   ► that you can use from shortcuts.

00:02:30 ◼   ► It returns a success audio file that is a hum, and you can use it as a success sound

00:02:36 ◼   ► in your shortcuts.

00:02:38 ◼   ► That is my pitch.

00:02:39 ◼   ► >> All right.

00:02:39 ◼   ► I'm making it an issue in his GitHub repo right now.

00:02:43 ◼   ► >> This is really good of you to do that to him.

00:02:46 ◼   ► >> Yes, your wife and Robin.

00:02:48 ◼   ► >> Okay, that is issue number one in the GitHub page for this.

00:02:54 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:02:55 ◼   ► >> While we're talking about bits that may have run their course, Brad wrote in to say,

00:02:59 ◼   ► "I have a follow-up on Frederico's Christmas tree farm."

00:03:02 ◼   ► >> Are you canceling Christmas?

00:03:04 ◼   ► >> No, don't ruin this for me.

00:03:05 ◼   ► No.

00:03:06 ◼   ► >> I said it hadn't.

00:03:07 ◼   ► I said may have, you know?

00:03:09 ◼   ► >> But no, you're setting it up.

00:03:11 ◼   ► You're setting it up.

00:03:11 ◼   ► >> I'm out here, and I'm trying to protect the hilarity of the show, you know?

00:03:16 ◼   ► Like, someone's got to do it.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Someone's got to be the bad guy, and I'm willing to be the bad guy.

00:03:20 ◼   ► >> Yeah, you're the Grinch in this scenario.

00:03:22 ◼   ► >> Yeah, I will be the Grinch of bits, and like, someone's, you know, someone's got to

00:03:26 ◼   ► prune them.

00:03:27 ◼   ► And I'm not saying I'm going to.

00:03:29 ◼   ► I'm just saying, like, I'm willing to.

00:03:33 ◼   ► I will take that.

00:03:34 ◼   ► You know, I'll be that guy.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Anyway, Brad wrote in and said, "I have a follow-up on Frederico's Christmas tree farm

00:03:40 ◼   ► that you mentioned during the holiday season.

00:03:41 ◼   ► It seems that his business empire may be larger than we all realized.

00:03:45 ◼   ► I live in Chicago and noticed one of Frederico's family businesses."

00:03:49 ◼   ► Is it Federico or Frederico?

00:03:51 ◼   ► >> Frederico.

00:03:51 ◼   ► >> It's Frederico, right?

00:03:52 ◼   ► >> Thank you, Brad, for spelling it correctly.

00:03:54 ◼   ► >> No, no, no, no.

00:03:55 ◼   ► You spell it like that, but I'm pretty sure it's Frederico's Christmas tree.

00:03:58 ◼   ► >> It is Frederico's.

00:03:59 ◼   ► >> Like, that was the whole point.

00:04:00 ◼   ► Yeah, all right.

00:04:01 ◼   ► "I live in Chicago and noticed another one of Frederico's family businesses, and while

00:04:05 ◼   ► it's a bit more grim than Christmas trees, I won't spoil it, but I promise it's safe

00:04:08 ◼   ► for work."

00:04:09 ◼   ► Now, there's an image that we haven't looked at.

00:04:10 ◼   ► >> Before we click.

00:04:11 ◼   ► >> I am 100% confident that I know what it is.

00:04:14 ◼   ► >> Before we click, any guesses?

00:04:16 ◼   ► >> I have not looked, all right?

00:04:19 ◼   ► I've kept sanctity of the show notes.

00:04:22 ◼   ► I'm convinced that it is a funeral parlor.

00:04:24 ◼   ► >> I was also going to say a funeral home, yes.

00:04:26 ◼   ► >> Okay.

00:04:27 ◼   ► >> Okay.

00:04:27 ◼   ► >> Steven, what do you think?

00:04:28 ◼   ► >> I'll go with y'all.

00:04:30 ◼   ► >> All right.

00:04:31 ◼   ► >> I mean, the grim.

00:04:31 ◼   ► >> The grim, I think it's a--

00:04:33 ◼   ► >> I'm clicking.

00:04:34 ◼   ► I'm clicking.

00:04:35 ◼   ► >> Yep, 100% right.

00:04:36 ◼   ► Well, actually, this is a different thing.

00:04:37 ◼   ► >> Oh, no, no.

00:04:39 ◼   ► >> It's called Vitucci Funeral Home, which is a different thing.

00:04:42 ◼   ► >> No, that is not my name.

00:04:43 ◼   ► >> Honestly, this is not even tangentially related to the Christmas show.

00:04:49 ◼   ► >> That is not my name.

00:04:52 ◼   ► >> Hang on.

00:04:53 ◼   ► >> No.

00:04:53 ◼   ► >> Hang on.

00:04:54 ◼   ► Go to the third photo.

00:04:56 ◼   ► >> Third photo.

00:04:57 ◼   ► >> The building next to it just says, "Carefully."

00:05:01 ◼   ► >> Carefully.

00:05:01 ◼   ► >> Yeah, all capital letters.

00:05:03 ◼   ► >> Because if you're not careful, you're going to end up next door.

00:05:05 ◼   ► >> Exactly.

00:05:06 ◼   ► >> Yeah, for when you want to pass away carefully, you know?

00:05:09 ◼   ► >> Mm-hmm.

00:05:09 ◼   ► >> Just, you know, do it gently.

00:05:11 ◼   ► >> Do it gently.

00:05:13 ◼   ► Do it gently.

00:05:14 ◼   ► Carefully.

00:05:15 ◼   ► Nice and gently.

00:05:16 ◼   ► I want to just state for the record right now, this is not going to become a recurring

00:05:21 ◼   ► piece of follow-up where people just...

00:05:22 ◼   ► We can't just have every store that's kind of like Federico's name and we talk about it, right?

00:05:29 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:05:29 ◼   ► >> We're all in agreement on this one?

00:05:31 ◼   ► >> Yes, we are.

00:05:31 ◼   ► >> Brad, I appreciate what you did.

00:05:32 ◼   ► >> Vitucci is a very common misspelling, even here in Italy, of my last name.

00:05:39 ◼   ► >> Yeah, I can see that.

00:05:39 ◼   ► >> Just because Vitucci is so uncommon.

00:05:41 ◼   ► I think I've said it before, I think I'm the only Vitucci in Italy, but Vitucci is a very

00:05:46 ◼   ► popular last name, but that is not me.

00:05:49 ◼   ► >> So Vitucci is like a weird one?

00:05:52 ◼   ► Like that's not something that...

00:05:53 ◼   ► >> Yes.

00:05:53 ◼   ► People never understand my last name on the phone.

00:05:56 ◼   ► They're like, "Oh, Vitucci?"

00:05:58 ◼   ► No, Vitucci with the "e", with the "i".

00:06:00 ◼   ► >> Did you say Frederico Vitucci?

00:06:02 ◼   ► [ Laughter ]

00:06:05 ◼   ► >> Yep, nailed it in one.

00:06:06 ◼   ► >> Okay, well.

00:06:07 ◼   ► >> Chris wrote in about video reactions to say, "I think a fix that Apple could make

00:06:12 ◼   ► is something like what Zoom has.

00:06:13 ◼   ► Zoom has similar functionality, but in the lower corner, it puts up a small emoji of

00:06:18 ◼   ► the reaction that it's about to do with a timer to know how long until the effect fires.

00:06:22 ◼   ► This allows you to have a warning to either cancel or stop the action before it shows

00:06:28 ◼   ► on camera."

00:06:29 ◼   ► My initial thought is like, "This is just worse in a different way."

00:06:31 ◼   ► Right?

00:06:32 ◼   ► Like, if I do a thumbs up and then it's like five seconds later, the thumbs up appears,

00:06:36 ◼   ► it kind of loses its --

00:06:37 ◼   ► >> Yeah, you're introducing latency to the gestures.

00:06:40 ◼   ► >> I mean, there already is one, which I think is for the best, right?

00:06:43 ◼   ► Like, that they -- you have to, like, hold it for a second and then it will do the thing.

00:06:47 ◼   ► But I'm not sure that this -- I'm not sure this is better.

00:06:50 ◼   ► It's just different, you know?

00:06:52 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:06:52 ◼   ► >> Mm-hmm.

00:06:53 ◼   ► >> They should just have it off by default.

00:06:56 ◼   ► I mean, that's -- that's the simple thing here.

00:07:00 ◼   ► It causes nothing but trouble, I think.

00:07:02 ◼   ► >> No, it doesn't cause nothing but trouble.

00:07:05 ◼   ► It causes a lot of trouble.

00:07:06 ◼   ► >> It causes delight.

00:07:06 ◼   ► It causes delight.

00:07:08 ◼   ► Lots of things cause trouble, you know?

00:07:09 ◼   ► Sometimes delight.

00:07:11 ◼   ► >> I did want to bring people's attention to the support article for these video effects.

00:07:17 ◼   ► >> Of course.

00:07:17 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:07:18 ◼   ► >> For two reasons.

00:07:19 ◼   ► One, there are more than I thought there were.

00:07:21 ◼   ► >> Yes.

00:07:22 ◼   ► >> But two, there were, like, these hand-drawn images of hands, and I can't tell if I like

00:07:27 ◼   ► them or they creep me out.

00:07:28 ◼   ► >> Oh, let me see this.

00:07:29 ◼   ► Let me see this.

00:07:29 ◼   ► >> Some are way more detailed than others, which is interesting.

00:07:32 ◼   ► >> None of them have fingernails, which is upsetting.

00:07:35 ◼   ► >> Do you want that?

00:07:36 ◼   ► >> I don't know.

00:07:37 ◼   ► >> I don't know.

00:07:38 ◼   ► >> Interesting wish that you were looking for the fingernails.

00:07:42 ◼   ► >> Man, I wish there were some fingernails.

00:07:44 ◼   ► >> You know what?

00:07:45 ◼   ► This drawing is missing.

00:07:47 ◼   ► Give me some fingernails, man.

00:07:48 ◼   ► >> I get that.

00:07:50 ◼   ► So, Stephen, do you prefer, like, patent hands to these?

00:07:53 ◼   ► >> Patent hands are also bad, and I just remembered as we were talking the nightmare that is the

00:08:00 ◼   ► hand sticker pack from Apple that was a big deal in the early versions of watchOS, and

00:08:05 ◼   ► it was kind of like been, like, demoted over time.

00:08:07 ◼   ► >> They were, like, in a glove, right?

00:08:09 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:08:10 ◼   ► >> Oh, no, that hand always reminded me of -- Mike, do you remember the original, like,

00:08:16 ◼   ► in Super Smash Brothers, like, the hand that was, like, the final boss?

00:08:20 ◼   ► >> Yes.

00:08:21 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:08:21 ◼   ► It was kind of like that.

00:08:23 ◼   ► I haven't thought about that hand in forever.

00:08:26 ◼   ► So thank you, Stephen.

00:08:27 ◼   ► >> Chris Lolly wrote in.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Requested follow-up on the iPad Mini mounted to the Magic Keyboard.

00:08:35 ◼   ► So this was a riff on Federico's iPad mount with the phone, and we discovered that Chris

00:08:43 ◼   ► is using two iPads at once.

00:08:44 ◼   ► Chris is using two rolling square mounts.

00:08:48 ◼   ► He says these magnets are incredibly strong, so the iPad Mini isn't going anywhere.

00:08:53 ◼   ► When I'm using -- this is a ridiculous sentence.

00:08:56 ◼   ► When I'm using two iPads together, the iPad Mini typically has a document or something

00:09:00 ◼   ► I'm just referencing.

00:09:02 ◼   ► As long as I'm not aggressively tapping on the Mini, nothing falls over.

00:09:05 ◼   ► If I'm working on an uneven surface like my lap, the iPad does want to fall over.

00:09:10 ◼   ► P.S. I do have long thighs.

00:09:13 ◼   ► >> Thank you, Chris, for the clarification.

00:09:15 ◼   ► >> I feel like Chris attempted to explain why it was okay and just confirmed to me why

00:09:21 ◼   ► it isn't in my opinion.

00:09:22 ◼   ► >> And realized halfway through that he wasn't.

00:09:25 ◼   ► >> As long as I'm not aggressively tapping, and also I must have a perfectly even surface.

00:09:31 ◼   ► Chris, look, just fly into the sky.

00:09:36 ◼   ► You know, I love you doing what you do.

00:09:39 ◼   ► Same as Federico.

00:09:40 ◼   ► I love you guys just pushing it as far as you can.

00:09:43 ◼   ► But we all know that that is suboptimal, right?

00:09:46 ◼   ► Don't tap too hard or everything falls over.

00:09:50 ◼   ► >> What if the document really upsets you?

00:09:51 ◼   ► >> I want you to live your best lives and do these things.

00:09:54 ◼   ► You know?

00:09:55 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I think we are.

00:09:57 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:09:57 ◼   ► >> But Chris is like, this is the evolution of my setup.

00:10:00 ◼   ► Like, you know, this is the next step.

00:10:02 ◼   ► Chris is the war turtle to my squirrel, if you will.

00:10:06 ◼   ► >> I love that.

00:10:08 ◼   ► I love that.

00:10:08 ◼   ► What I enjoy is the thought of the two of you eventually putting magnets in your Vision

00:10:12 ◼   ► Pros and just putting a Mac Mini up there, right?

00:10:14 ◼   ► Just to be like, so I could, wherever I go, I'm going to have the Mac, like, just ready

00:10:20 ◼   ► to go.

00:10:20 ◼   ► So you just stick a Mac Mini on the front of the thing and you're just like.

00:10:23 ◼   ► >> I had a thought the other day about, like, connecting multiple batteries to the Vision

00:10:30 ◼   ► Pro and attaching all of them to myself.

00:10:33 ◼   ► So like, if I'm using the Vision Pro and I have the Belkin battery clip and there's the

00:10:38 ◼   ► Vision Pro battery, but the Vision Pro battery has USB-C in.

00:10:42 ◼   ► So what if I attach another battery to the battery and I get a second holster for all

00:10:47 ◼   ► of them?

00:10:48 ◼   ► You know?

00:10:49 ◼   ► Like, I'm going to look like.

00:10:50 ◼   ► >> You'd be like Batman?

00:10:51 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:10:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:10:53 ◼   ► You know, I'm going to be like the Vision Pro soldier or something, like, with all these

00:10:58 ◼   ► holsters going on at the same time.

00:11:00 ◼   ► So I never run out of charge.

00:11:02 ◼   ► >> Or Chewbacca.

00:11:04 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

00:11:05 ◼   ► >> You don't know who that is, do you?

00:11:07 ◼   ► >> It's the hairy bear from Star Wars.

00:11:10 ◼   ► >> This episode of Connected is brought to you by Notion.

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00:11:40 ◼   ► And with Notion AI, I can find stuff through like 10 years of show notes.

00:11:44 ◼   ► We have so much history on MPU, and Notion AI makes it really easy to make those connections

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00:13:14 ◼   ► We are less than 10 days away from the Vision Pro.

00:13:20 ◼   ► Pretty exciting.

00:13:23 ◼   ► I'm pretty excited now.

00:13:24 ◼   ► Like, it's so close.

00:13:26 ◼   ► It feels like it's been a really long time, right?

00:13:31 ◼   ► Like if you think back to June of last year, like this is a very long time that we've

00:13:37 ◼   ► known this thing was coming.

00:13:38 ◼   ► We're excited for it.

00:13:39 ◼   ► Now we know exactly when it's coming.

00:13:41 ◼   ► Are we all getting one?

00:13:44 ◼   ► Were we successful?

00:13:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:48 ◼   ► Well, with an asterisk, I guess.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Oh, let's start with asterisk boy.

00:13:54 ◼   ► Well, so I was successful.

00:13:58 ◼   ► The entire plan that I had devised worked.

00:14:02 ◼   ► So I was able to use my burner phone, logged into a secondary John Voorhees account with

00:14:10 ◼   ► a John Voorhees credit card.

00:14:12 ◼   ► I was able to use all of that to put in an order.

00:14:15 ◼   ► I scanned my face, which in hindsight was unnecessary because it turns out that John

00:14:20 ◼   ► and I, we shared the same head size, I guess.

00:14:23 ◼   ► But yeah, I was able to put in the order.

00:14:26 ◼   ► I uploaded my prescription using the website that I suggested to Mike.

00:14:31 ◼   ► A bunch of people emailed me to ask me for that website.

00:14:35 ◼   ► So you're welcome.

00:14:36 ◼   ► govisibly.com.

00:14:37 ◼   ► I sent you a bunch of people over the past week.

00:14:40 ◼   ► And everything was successful.

00:14:42 ◼   ► And the vision pro as let's check again, it was preparing to ship yesterday and it's still

00:14:47 ◼   ► preparing to ship.

00:14:48 ◼   ► So I was successful.

00:14:51 ◼   ► Obviously now these entire story for me is, uh, uh, predicated upon the assumption that

00:14:58 ◼   ► everything will be fine with shipping and customs.

00:15:01 ◼   ► I mean, let's face it.

00:15:02 ◼   ► I'm ready to spend another thousand thousand dollars to import this product in Italy right

00:15:07 ◼   ► now at launch.

00:15:09 ◼   ► And I know that's going to happen.

00:15:10 ◼   ► I planned for it.

00:15:11 ◼   ► I saved for it.

00:15:12 ◼   ► Um, but yeah, uh, we'll see.

00:15:15 ◼   ► Hopefully, you know, everything will go well at Italian customs.

00:15:18 ◼   ► They will know what they're dealing with and if they don't, they'll call me on the phone.

00:15:22 ◼   ► I suppose.

00:15:22 ◼   ► Uh, what are our face shield sizes?

00:15:25 ◼   ► This compare sizes?

00:15:26 ◼   ► 23W was that.

00:15:31 ◼   ► Is that with prescription?

00:15:32 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:15:34 ◼   ► Like with, cause, okay.

00:15:36 ◼   ► So I found out that, um, you have a different size if you have prescription lenses and non

00:15:42 ◼   ► prescription lenses.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Uh, in a non-prescription, I'm 21W with prescription and 25W.

00:15:49 ◼   ► Hmm.

00:15:50 ◼   ► Okay.

00:15:50 ◼   ► So I put in during the order that I need a prescription lenses and, um, it gave me 23W.

00:15:59 ◼   ► Um, same John also putting prescription and they also got the same number.

00:16:04 ◼   ► And he also got the same number.

00:16:06 ◼   ► I have the biggest head.

00:16:07 ◼   ► You do what we've learned.

00:16:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:09 ◼   ► It's because you're so talented.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Maybe we knew that already.

00:16:12 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:16:13 ◼   ► That's why the tiny shirts had failed because it wasn't very realistic.

00:16:17 ◼   ► It wasn't sure.

00:16:18 ◼   ► I had, well, I should have had the biggest head.

00:16:20 ◼   ► Maybe I do.

00:16:21 ◼   ► I haven't measured.

00:16:22 ◼   ► Or we should have taken you off the shirt and just be me in Federico.

00:16:25 ◼   ► Think about that.

00:16:27 ◼   ► I mean, there was a time period where it felt like that that was happening to me.

00:16:31 ◼   ► That the two of you had decided that that shirt was going to be a thing that you were

00:16:34 ◼   ► in charge of and nobody else.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Um, my ordering process was a bit chaotic.

00:16:40 ◼   ► I think is fair to say.

00:16:43 ◼   ► So obviously I was doing an install pickup as my option.

00:16:47 ◼   ► And I first started going through the process and it asked me, um, if I needed contact lenses

00:16:53 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:16:54 ◼   ► And when I started asking if I needed lenses and I started answering the questions and

00:16:58 ◼   ► I don't know what I answered, but it was like, you can't buy the vision pro.

00:17:02 ◼   ► And I was like, all right, I don't, I'm going to deal with this part later on.

00:17:05 ◼   ► Uh, I, so I just went through and placed an order.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And, but the actual placing of the old was very difficult.

00:17:15 ◼   ► Like my card kept getting declined.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Like, like, well, the payment was being declined using Apple pay.

00:17:21 ◼   ► So I'd go through the whole thing, choose my slot, go for it.

00:17:24 ◼   ► And it was declined, declined, declined.

00:17:26 ◼   ► And my wife was trying to buy one too for me.

00:17:30 ◼   ► Right.

00:17:30 ◼   ► So we're both like trying to like, we're like, like tag teaming the situation.

00:17:34 ◼   ► And she then tried a different card in case it was my card.

00:17:38 ◼   ► That was the issue.

00:17:39 ◼   ► And she was able to place an order for the third.

00:17:43 ◼   ► And then, but it was not on the card that I wanted to use.

00:17:48 ◼   ► And then I kept like trying out and then I was able to place an order for like 11 PM on the second.

00:17:55 ◼   ► So I actually have two vision pro orders.

00:17:58 ◼   ► I'm going to cancel one of them naturally, but this, I think the situation I was finding,

00:18:04 ◼   ► it wasn't my card, wasn't the issue, but the slots kept filling up.

00:18:08 ◼   ► I had that problem too, where in the Apple store app, the fail state was really bad.

00:18:13 ◼   ► Cause like, basically it looked like your payment failed, but it wasn't.

00:18:17 ◼   ► It was at your in-store pickup time got taken by somebody else out from under you.

00:18:21 ◼   ► They should have done a couple of things differently.

00:18:23 ◼   ► The error message should have been actually useful instead of scary.

00:18:26 ◼   ► Yes.

00:18:26 ◼   ► Cause it just said like payment failed.

00:18:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:29 ◼   ► Isn't.

00:18:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:30 ◼   ► Not, it's not actually true.

00:18:31 ◼   ► But also they should do it.

00:18:34 ◼   ► Like if you, like, if you buy tickets to a concert or a sporting event,

00:18:37 ◼   ► but no ticket master does this lot of the websites do this too.

00:18:40 ◼   ► Like you have a set amount of time where those tickets are in your cart

00:18:43 ◼   ► and then you have to start over, like do the same thing with the in-store pickup time.

00:18:50 ◼   ► It's like, okay, I've picked nine 30 or whatever.

00:18:53 ◼   ► Mark that as unavailable to everybody else for a set amount of time while I'm checking out.

00:18:57 ◼   ► And tell me how much time I have.

00:18:59 ◼   ► Other people have solved this problem, but Apple seemed to be befuddled by it.

00:19:03 ◼   ► Especially cause it seems like something like that was going on because then later in the day,

00:19:07 ◼   ► I was able to change my pickup time to like eight in the morning.

00:19:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:19:10 ◼   ► So it's like, oh, so like, which is great.

00:19:13 ◼   ► Cause now I've got it exactly when I want it right.

00:19:14 ◼   ► Like as soon as I possibly can on launch day is what I want.

00:19:18 ◼   ► And so it's like, oh, okay.

00:19:20 ◼   ► But like, I didn't really, it was, it was a bit of a madness.

00:19:22 ◼   ► And then also I then went through and ordered my prescription lenses separately.

00:19:27 ◼   ► I'm happy I did that too.

00:19:28 ◼   ► Cause it seems like prescription could only be sent to an address.

00:19:31 ◼   ► Like you can't pick it up.

00:19:33 ◼   ► And so I'm sending my prescription to Steven and he's going to mail it to me.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Big vision buddy.

00:19:39 ◼   ► Indeed.

00:19:39 ◼   ► So I'll be able to use it on day one without prescription, which I think will be fine for me.

00:19:44 ◼   ► Like it's not going to be a big deal anyway.

00:19:46 ◼   ► Like things might be a little blurry, but I'll, I'll be okay.

00:19:49 ◼   ► And then a couple of days later or whatever, I'll have my, um,

00:19:52 ◼   ► the, the, the, like the actual lenses to put in.

00:19:55 ◼   ► So, uh, bit wild.

00:19:57 ◼   ► I also found out, well, Steven found this out for me to which when I originally read it,

00:20:02 ◼   ► I thought it was game over, but I actually think it probably isn't now.

00:20:05 ◼   ► There is an FAQ section on the ordering page.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And one of them is like, if you are an international customer who wants to buy one,

00:20:12 ◼   ► what's going to happen to you.

00:20:13 ◼   ► And the main thing is that it says that the app store requires an Apple ID with the region set

00:20:19 ◼   ► to the U S.

00:20:20 ◼   ► So it seems to indicate to me that I will be able to sign in with my main Apple ID,

00:20:25 ◼   ► but if I want to buy anything, I need an at U S Apple ID.

00:20:29 ◼   ► And so I've gone through the many weird hoops that you need to jump through to get one.

00:20:34 ◼   ► Um, like ultimately you have to have before you asked me, cause I know people will ask me

00:20:39 ◼   ► ultimately you have to have some form of American payment attached to the account.

00:20:45 ◼   ► Like luckily I have access to that.

00:20:49 ◼   ► And then also bought a gift card and topped it up with a gift card.

00:20:52 ◼   ► And I'm not going to charge the account Steven, don't worry.

00:20:55 ◼   ► But this seems to be the only way to do it.

00:20:59 ◼   ► So I think I'm going to be set, but we'll see what happens.

00:21:02 ◼   ► Mine was far less dramatic because I'm in the United States,

00:21:08 ◼   ► the world's best country, according to Apple.

00:21:09 ◼   ► So I have in store pickup for the morning of February 2nd.

00:21:16 ◼   ► I think it's at nine 30 in the morning.

00:21:17 ◼   ► So I'm not the first slot, but I think I'm the second.

00:21:19 ◼   ► And, uh, I did pick up the hard travel case.

00:21:24 ◼   ► I don't necessarily anticipate traveling with it at least at first,

00:21:27 ◼   ► but I do want something to store it in that safe and sound because.

00:21:30 ◼   ► Because repairing this thing is going to be expensive.

00:21:34 ◼   ► Or impossible.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Or impossible.

00:21:39 ◼   ► If you don't live in the United States.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Or very, very expensive.

00:21:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:47 ◼   ► You have to, uh, ship it to me and then I take it to Apple and pay the $3,000 to get it fixed.

00:21:54 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:21:55 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:21:55 ◼   ► So we will all be in possession of them at some point, you know, early February.

00:22:00 ◼   ► That's very exciting because it was really unknown that we, if we'd be able to pull this off or not.

00:22:05 ◼   ► And I'm pleased that we have, because, uh, I'm, I'm just so curious about where the three of

00:22:10 ◼   ► us are going to fall along the spectrum of feelings about this product.

00:22:14 ◼   ► I just, I can't wait.

00:22:15 ◼   ► It's impossible to know.

00:22:17 ◼   ► Genuinely impossible to know at this point.

00:22:19 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:19 ◼   ► Like me and Federico had one 30 minute demo, but I don't know what that doesn't tell really

00:22:25 ◼   ► tell us anything about how it's going to feel to use it.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Where like, realistically for the first few days, we're going to be using it more than

00:22:32 ◼   ► we probably should.

00:22:33 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Like I plan to put it on and I'll probably be doing like four or five hours a day in

00:22:40 ◼   ► this thing for the first few days.

00:22:42 ◼   ► Right.

00:22:42 ◼   ► To like really try and cram in as much as possible.

00:22:46 ◼   ► And I genuinely have no idea how that's going to feel.

00:22:49 ◼   ► Like, I don't think it's going to feel good, but I don't know if it's going to feel bad.

00:22:54 ◼   ► You know, like I think that's, uh, I'm not sure.

00:22:57 ◼   ► I just, I'm not sure.

00:22:58 ◼   ► Um, I will say about that demo, Apple posted a guided tour video, uh, after the, or when

00:23:04 ◼   ► the pre-orders went up.

00:23:05 ◼   ► In case you were wondering, this is very similar to the experience that Federico and I got

00:23:12 ◼   ► to try, like honestly down to some of the same words being used.

00:23:17 ◼   ► Uh, yes.

00:23:18 ◼   ► Not exactly the same because they actually have some apps they can show now, which they

00:23:21 ◼   ► didn't have before.

00:23:22 ◼   ► Um, but there was a lot of, uh, very close parts to it.

00:23:27 ◼   ► And also I will say the persona, that persona looked better than the persona I saw.

00:23:33 ◼   ► So if you thought that persona looked bad, whoo baby.

00:23:35 ◼   ► I'm so afraid of it.

00:23:37 ◼   ► Imagine what Mike saw.

00:23:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:23:41 ◼   ► No, no hair and eyes moving in the wrong direction.

00:23:44 ◼   ► It was really good times.

00:23:46 ◼   ► Did y'all see the construction video?

00:23:48 ◼   ► There is look, there are lots of things I want in my life, right?

00:23:52 ◼   ► And I've asked for lots of things in my life.

00:23:53 ◼   ► I've been lucky to get them.

00:23:54 ◼   ► I want to go to the place where Apple makes anything and just see this.

00:24:00 ◼   ► It's incredible.

00:24:02 ◼   ► It is really cool.

00:24:04 ◼   ► It's sort of a similar to their videos, like the Intel iMac, which that video got was ripped

00:24:11 ◼   ► off from the postal service, uh, or the Mac Mac pro assembled in the USA video.

00:24:16 ◼   ► Right.

00:24:16 ◼   ► Have you guys ever seen, uh, have you guys ever seen the oddly satisfying subreddit?

00:24:21 ◼   ► Um, of course.

00:24:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:24 ◼   ► So Apple should make a bunch of videos of their, uh, making of things and just, and

00:24:31 ◼   ► just use them for like meditation purposes.

00:24:33 ◼   ► I would watch 30 minutes of Apple machines, assembling computers and like just chill,

00:24:39 ◼   ► you know?

00:24:40 ◼   ► Especially the part, like I'm rewatching it now, where I think they're like sewing the

00:24:45 ◼   ► headband and it's just these little needles moving backwards and forwards, backwards and

00:24:48 ◼   ► forwards.

00:24:49 ◼   ► Like just the, the amount of processes required is truly outstanding to me.

00:24:59 ◼   ► And like when I, I mean, I don't know what it's like to build an iPhone, right?

00:25:02 ◼   ► Like I don't know how many processes an iPhone goes through, but when you see this video,

00:25:08 ◼   ► I feel like you can't be surprised that it costs three and a half thousand dollars.

00:25:12 ◼   ► I had that exact thought.

00:25:13 ◼   ► I was like, oh, that's where all that money goes.

00:25:16 ◼   ► Like, especially the part where, uh, they're, they're getting ready to put the front glass

00:25:21 ◼   ► on and you see all the electronics inside of it.

00:25:24 ◼   ► It's truly outstanding.

00:25:27 ◼   ► Like I really feel like more than ever, we're about to be on the absolute cutting edge.

00:25:34 ◼   ► Like we're going to be using something which is just like as far into the future, a piece

00:25:40 ◼   ► of consumer technology can be and sold en masse.

00:25:43 ◼   ► Like it, it truly feels like a special thing.

00:25:46 ◼   ► And I'm very excited.

00:25:47 ◼   ► Me too.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Which I'll say on the en masse thing.

00:25:53 ◼   ► So, I mean, we don't know, but I will say, uh, overall they stayed in stock more than

00:25:59 ◼   ► I expected, but there's been reporting that they sold like maybe 160 to 180,000, which

00:26:05 ◼   ► is also more than I thought they would sell.

00:26:07 ◼   ► So I have no idea, right?

00:26:09 ◼   ► Like, I don't know what you guys think about that, but.

00:26:11 ◼   ► I mean, I don't, I don't know what that means.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Like there's no context for this.

00:26:17 ◼   ► We know that there were reports that Apple could maybe only make half a million or a

00:26:22 ◼   ► million of these due to the screen technology.

00:26:27 ◼   ► I would imagine that just, I mean, just if watching this video is any indication, this

00:26:32 ◼   ► isn't a very, very complicated thing to build and they've got all these components and

00:26:38 ◼   ► like yield issues or all that stuff could be a factor.

00:26:41 ◼   ► So like, I don't, I don't know what that number means.

00:26:43 ◼   ► I would also imagine even though dates have slipped in the U S that if they are planning

00:26:49 ◼   ► on this being beyond the United States in the next couple of months, maybe they are.

00:26:55 ◼   ► Is there any gating going on where they've got more stock than they're putting for sale?

00:27:00 ◼   ► I just, I don't know any of those answers, so I don't really know what that number

00:27:03 ◼   ► means, but other than there's not a lot of them, like subjectively, we don't know what

00:27:09 ◼   ► the number means, but objectively no, that's actually not a very big number of units.

00:27:13 ◼   ► And so it'll be, uh, it'll be a rare thing for a long time.

00:27:16 ◼   ► While I want my, uh, country people to be able to access this thing, I would like at

00:27:25 ◼   ► least 60 days, please just give me 60 days to justify what I'm doing.

00:27:32 ◼   ► Uh, that's, that's my ask.

00:27:34 ◼   ► It's purely selfish.

00:27:35 ◼   ► I mean, those probably got to be what, like a couple of dozen in the United Kingdom.

00:27:40 ◼   ► You think it's hard to know.

00:27:43 ◼   ► I mean, it will be a very small number, right?

00:27:46 ◼   ► Cause the efforts that you have to go to pretty intense.

00:27:50 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know what the aftermarket is really going to be like for this product.

00:27:53 ◼   ► Like I know that there already is one.

00:27:55 ◼   ► In fact, there was one before it even went on sale, which is hilarious, but it also just

00:28:01 ◼   ► seems like a complicated product to buy off the market.

00:28:04 ◼   ► If you know anything about it, you've kind of got to go through the whole face thing,

00:28:08 ◼   ► which was smoother than I expected.

00:28:11 ◼   ► The face scanning thing.

00:28:13 ◼   ► It was very simple.

00:28:16 ◼   ► I genuinely have no idea how they get enough information from it.

00:28:19 ◼   ► So I just think that's very technologically impressive.

00:28:21 ◼   ► But yeah, I don't imagine there will be a lot of them outside of America.

00:28:25 ◼   ► Do you guys think I will be the only person in Rome with a vision pro?

00:28:29 ◼   ► It's possible.

00:28:30 ◼   ► It's possible.

00:28:32 ◼   ► Maybe I should do something about that.

00:28:33 ◼   ► The further you get, the least likely it becomes, right?

00:28:36 ◼   ► Should like put up a small tent somewhere and have people pay a ticket to try one.

00:28:42 ◼   ► Big vision buddy.

00:28:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:44 ◼   ► You're going to want some, uh, some wet wipes or something.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Keep that thing clean.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Sure.

00:28:49 ◼   ► Sure.

00:28:50 ◼   ► You want some head sanitizer.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Yep.

00:28:54 ◼   ► Just the whole thing.

00:28:55 ◼   ► Bucket, the head, good to go.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Like a swirly in a bunch of sanitizer.

00:29:00 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:29:01 ◼   ► So the vision pro is looking forward, but today we can also look backwards as the Mac

00:29:08 ◼   ► has turned 40 years old.

00:29:09 ◼   ► There are lots and lots of good pieces of content out there on the internet.

00:29:16 ◼   ► I'm pretty proud of an episode of upgrade that we put together that went out on Monday

00:29:20 ◼   ► that Stephen was a guest on.

00:29:22 ◼   ► We, um, brought together a bunch of people who've been talking and thinking about the

00:29:26 ◼   ► Mac for a really long time and we did a draft.

00:29:28 ◼   ► So picking some, uh, favorite moments and products over the last 40 years.

00:29:33 ◼   ► So I'd really recommend people go check that episode of upgrade out.

00:29:35 ◼   ► There's also a really good video version of it too.

00:29:38 ◼   ► If that's your speed.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Um, the Jason wrote a good article on the verge.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Again, I love how they, they bring Jason in like when there's an anniversary, I find

00:29:48 ◼   ► that very funny.

00:29:49 ◼   ► And Stephen has done a really good job of pulling together a bunch of resources and

00:29:54 ◼   ► articles and stuff like that.

00:29:55 ◼   ► So people can go and check it out.

00:29:58 ◼   ► Happy birthday, Macintosh.

00:29:59 ◼   ► Happy birthday, Macintosh.

00:30:01 ◼   ► Happy birthday.

00:30:02 ◼   ► I did just want to call out one thing out of all this coverage because you guys only

00:30:07 ◼   ► allowed me a few minutes for this.

00:30:08 ◼   ► I wanted the whole show.

00:30:09 ◼   ► This is absolutely a lie.

00:30:10 ◼   ► This is a lie.

00:30:11 ◼   ► You're lying.

00:30:12 ◼   ► But this is, this conversation never happened.

00:30:14 ◼   ► But our friend, uh, uh, Joe over at Mac rumors came across the original press release for

00:30:20 ◼   ► like the original Macintosh.

00:30:22 ◼   ► And there's the, I read the whole thing, go read it.

00:30:24 ◼   ► There's a quote in it that jumped out at me.

00:30:29 ◼   ► Like I've, I've rarely had covering this stuff.

00:30:33 ◼   ► So this is a quote from jobs.

00:30:34 ◼   ► With Macintosh, the computer is an aid to spontaneity and originality, not an obstacle.

00:30:41 ◼   ► It allows ideas and relationships to be viewed in new ways.

00:30:45 ◼   ► Macintosh enhances not just productivity, but also creativity.

00:30:49 ◼   ► And what killed me about that quote is how dead on it was then and how it continues to

00:30:57 ◼   ► be dead on now.

00:30:58 ◼   ► And not just about the Mac, or I think Apple would works in this way towards all of its

00:31:04 ◼   ► products.

00:31:06 ◼   ► But for a statement that's 40 years old to be still so relevant today, the rest of the

00:31:12 ◼   ► press release is about like how it compares to the Lisa.

00:31:14 ◼   ► Like who cares?

00:31:15 ◼   ► I do, but most people don't.

00:31:17 ◼   ► But this idea that the computer enhances productivity and creativity and is not an obstacle

00:31:24 ◼   ► to doing so.

00:31:24 ◼   ► Like that's the whole reason I love the Mac.

00:31:26 ◼   ► It's the whole reason I fell in love with it in high school, using it in my high school

00:31:30 ◼   ► newspaper.

00:31:30 ◼   ► And like how so many of us came to it was through creativity, even though it may not

00:31:37 ◼   ► just be a creative tool for us now.

00:31:38 ◼   ► It has really stunned me, like how forward-looking that statement was.

00:31:44 ◼   ► And I'm sure no one at the time thought it would be, but it really stopped me in my tracks.

00:31:49 ◼   ► I think, you know, I know you said that so many products continue to embody a spirit

00:31:53 ◼   ► and that is true.

00:31:54 ◼   ► I think 40 years on, even today, the Mac is still the best embodiment of that balance

00:32:01 ◼   ► of anything that you can get for a computer.

00:32:05 ◼   ► And there is a spectrum of a lot of these things.

00:32:07 ◼   ► Like so much more content creation is done on PC now than ever before.

00:32:12 ◼   ► Like when you look at video games and stuff like that, right?

00:32:15 ◼   ► Like a lot of that content is done on PC now, but the Mac is still a better tool for the

00:32:23 ◼   ► majority of creativity.

00:32:25 ◼   ► And it's still incredibly capable from a productivity perspective.

00:32:30 ◼   ► Like I don't really think that there is a blemish on it that way anymore.

00:32:34 ◼   ► Where I would say that maybe like an iPad is more creative, but maybe harder to be productive.

00:32:39 ◼   ► Not that you can't be, but that it's not as balanced.

00:32:43 ◼   ► I think the Mac has the best balance of any computing device that you can buy today.

00:32:49 ◼   ► And that's still 40 years later.

00:32:50 ◼   ► And I think that that is kind of incredible, but I also think is a thing that couldn't

00:32:55 ◼   ► happen again because the economy has changed and what companies look for has changed.

00:33:02 ◼   ► So the Mac was just at the right time, but its DNA means that it can continue to be what

00:33:08 ◼   ► it always was and will continue to do that.

00:33:10 ◼   ► I think, you know, I would like to think about for like another 40 years.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:33:16 ◼   ► And see why it wouldn't.

00:33:17 ◼   ► And I think what's unique about it is it allows that creativity to everyday people.

00:33:25 ◼   ► Like you're right, a lot of stuff happens on the PC side now.

00:33:27 ◼   ► But where the Mac has always been strong is taking those tools and making them accessible.

00:33:35 ◼   ► So things like MacWrite and MacDraw in the original days, like you couldn't do that on

00:33:40 ◼   ► any computer hardly at all, let alone one.

00:33:42 ◼   ► Yes, it was very expensive, but one that you could have on your desk theoretically.

00:33:46 ◼   ► But then I think about in the more modern era, like the iLife Suite, right?

00:33:51 ◼   ► Like or photos or even things maybe like iMovie and Final Cut, having these tools, like you

00:33:58 ◼   ► can make really interesting dynamic things with the content out of your own life.

00:34:03 ◼   ► And a lot of those tools just come in the box, right?

00:34:08 ◼   ► That is where I think the Mac has always excelled for me when I think about it as it's a creative

00:34:14 ◼   ► and professional, it's a creative and productivity tool for everyone.

00:34:19 ◼   ► And yes, you can go out and like get things that are more specific or more high end.

00:34:23 ◼   ► But the Mac covers the basis for basically everybody and basically everything.

00:34:29 ◼   ► And that's a real testament, I think, to what it was about in the early days, right?

00:34:35 ◼   ► It was going to be a computer for the rest of us.

00:34:37 ◼   ► And in so many ways, that is still true.

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00:37:02 ◼   ► Big news in Steven Hackett land.

00:37:04 ◼   ► Would you like to share?

00:37:06 ◼   ► I'm launching Steven plus plus.

00:37:08 ◼   ► Congrats.

00:37:10 ◼   ► Congrats.

00:37:10 ◼   ► You're already, it's a big IP theft already.

00:37:13 ◼   ► That's great.

00:37:13 ◼   ► That's really good.

00:37:15 ◼   ► Hackett Smith doesn't roll off the tongue.

00:37:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:37:18 ◼   ► So I published a blog post yesterday.

00:37:19 ◼   ► It'll be in the show notes.

00:37:21 ◼   ► The TLDR is that I have joined David Smith's company and be working with him on apps like

00:37:28 ◼   ► widget Smith, but I'm going to plus plus sleep plus plus and the others that he has.

00:37:32 ◼   ► My role is like documentation design, some customer facing stuff, some marketing stuff.

00:37:40 ◼   ► Some of that hopefully we rolling out this week that I'll be able to share once it's

00:37:43 ◼   ► ready.

00:37:44 ◼   ► It is not changing anything I do here at relay or on five 12.

00:37:49 ◼   ► Really, this is me kind of in my mind actually becoming more like thinking about this.

00:37:54 ◼   ► I thought about the two of you a lot.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Where y'all really have sort of two big things that you're doing and five, 12 pixels has

00:38:01 ◼   ► never been like, it's important to me and I will do it forever.

00:38:03 ◼   ► But in terms of like the business, it's not a big contributor and really wanting to be

00:38:10 ◼   ► in a more stable position for the long haul.

00:38:12 ◼   ► Thinking about what y'all have done with cortex brand with you, Mike.

00:38:16 ◼   ► And of course, Federica, you have max stories and your shows here in the club.

00:38:21 ◼   ► And so, yeah, this is a move in that direction.

00:38:24 ◼   ► David called me at the towards the end of the year and had been thinking about these

00:38:29 ◼   ► things.

00:38:29 ◼   ► He actually had an episode of under the radar that he was talking about this and I was

00:38:35 ◼   ► listening to it.

00:38:35 ◼   ► I was like, Oh yeah, he should totally bring somebody on to help him with that.

00:38:39 ◼   ► And then he called me just kind of funny.

00:38:41 ◼   ► And so, so yeah, I wanted to disclose it obviously because I am now in addition to my

00:38:48 ◼   ► commentary, I'm now also part of the third party developer world and that's very, I'm

00:38:55 ◼   ► super excited about it.

00:38:56 ◼   ► I couldn't ask for a better person to work with and but thought everybody should know.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Congratulations on your max stories awards that you've won now.

00:39:06 ◼   ► You've retroactively gotten those.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Where's my trophy, John?

00:39:09 ◼   ► Yeah, John, come on, John.

00:39:12 ◼   ► Where is the trophy?

00:39:13 ◼   ► He deserves one.

00:39:13 ◼   ► You only give one.

00:39:14 ◼   ► That's not...

00:39:15 ◼   ► Federica, are there multiple trophies available or do you just

00:39:18 ◼   ► give one per app?

00:39:19 ◼   ► Like, do we have like, like a storage of spare trophies?

00:39:24 ◼   ► Is that what you're asking?

00:39:25 ◼   ► Yeah, maybe like if, if there's two people that develop an app, right?

00:39:28 ◼   ► Do you just send one trophy and they have to fight to the death for it?

00:39:31 ◼   ► You just saw it in half.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Okay.

00:39:34 ◼   ► Steven, I wouldn't recommend fighting underscore.

00:39:36 ◼   ► He's way stronger than I am.

00:39:38 ◼   ► Yeah, I think he could.

00:39:39 ◼   ► I'm sorry, but he could take you.

00:39:41 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:39:42 ◼   ► He could take, he could probably take all three of us at the same time.

00:39:44 ◼   ► I mean, who are we kidding?

00:39:45 ◼   ► I agree with that.

00:39:46 ◼   ► I agree with that.

00:39:48 ◼   ► I feel like he would, he would like, it would be an emotional struggle for him, right?

00:39:52 ◼   ► Like he would, he would really, he wouldn't enjoy it, but like if he had to, I mean, if

00:39:57 ◼   ► the award is on the line, he would do it.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Maybe, I don't know.

00:40:03 ◼   ► By now it's very funny now where it's like, he's not just our friend.

00:40:09 ◼   ► He's also like your boss and like, so now I find even more delight in making these jokes.

00:40:15 ◼   ► No, I appreciate that.

00:40:16 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:16 ◼   ► Yep.

00:40:17 ◼   ► So, you're a little Widgey now, right?

00:40:20 ◼   ► No, he's big Widgey.

00:40:22 ◼   ► No, no, Dave is big Widgey.

00:40:24 ◼   ► You kidding me?

00:40:25 ◼   ► No.

00:40:25 ◼   ► Steven's older.

00:40:27 ◼   ► Steven's older.

00:40:28 ◼   ► He's like...

00:40:29 ◼   ► No, I think David's older than me.

00:40:31 ◼   ► No, he's not.

00:40:32 ◼   ► No one is.

00:40:34 ◼   ► David is like, David is like 32.

00:40:36 ◼   ► Yeah, he has actively reversed his age.

00:40:40 ◼   ► Like that's the thing that Underscore has managed to do.

00:40:42 ◼   ► You're elder Widgey.

00:40:45 ◼   ► Elder Widgey.

00:40:46 ◼   ► That's good.

00:40:47 ◼   ► That's very good.

00:40:48 ◼   ► Elden Widge.

00:40:50 ◼   ► That's a different thing.

00:40:53 ◼   ► The Elden Widge.

00:40:54 ◼   ► I'm happy for you.

00:40:56 ◼   ► I am.

00:40:57 ◼   ► I think I might actually, I'm very happy for you.

00:41:00 ◼   ► I might be happier for Underscore because he needs it.

00:41:04 ◼   ► Like this is like a really good opportunity for you and like a fun thing to do.

00:41:08 ◼   ► But Dave like needs this person, you know?

00:41:10 ◼   ► And so like, I'm very happy that he chose you because, again, because Underscore is

00:41:16 ◼   ► maybe the best human.

00:41:18 ◼   ► He wanted to have a call with me as well to like to explain to me that he's not stealing

00:41:22 ◼   ► you away from me.

00:41:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:24 ◼   ► And something that Dave said is like that he, Stephen was like the person he wanted.

00:41:28 ◼   ► And I can attest to this.

00:41:29 ◼   ► I mean, I run a company with Stephen and I know how good he is at these things.

00:41:32 ◼   ► So like you are like the perfect person to do it.

00:41:35 ◼   ► But I know that, you know, Widget Smith is so big.

00:41:39 ◼   ► And so...

00:41:39 ◼   ► I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure nobody has a better scale, understanding of the scale now.

00:41:46 ◼   ► And then three of us and you do, Stephen, like Widget Smith is an absolutely massive

00:41:50 ◼   ► business and Underscore cannot, just cannot do it on his own anymore.

00:41:55 ◼   ► Like it's, it's too much.

00:41:57 ◼   ► And having help is fantastic.

00:42:00 ◼   ► And you know, and I'm sure for him, like not just having someone who is good at it like

00:42:05 ◼   ► you, but who understands all of it.

00:42:06 ◼   ► Like, I imagine that's like a really hard balance to try and find.

00:42:10 ◼   ► So I, I'm really, really happy that this has happened.

00:42:14 ◼   ► And I'm, I'm really excited for how uncomfortable we can make Stephen into the future.

00:42:20 ◼   ► That's that's like what Mike is saying.

00:42:21 ◼   ► Steven is don't screw it up.

00:42:23 ◼   ► You know?

00:42:24 ◼   ► Oh, I wasn't saying that, but I do mean that too.

00:42:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Now you say that Federica.

00:42:30 ◼   ► I agree.

00:42:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:31 ◼   ► Stephen don't.

00:42:31 ◼   ► I really like Widget Smith.

00:42:33 ◼   ► So if you could just not screw it up, that'd be awesome.

00:42:35 ◼   ► Don't mess it up.

00:42:36 ◼   ► Okay.

00:42:36 ◼   ► I will not listen to whoever in the discord said, make a Newton port of Widget Smith.

00:42:41 ◼   ► I will not, we will not spend time on that.

00:42:43 ◼   ► Resource allocation is not part of your remit.

00:42:46 ◼   ► I think.

00:42:47 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:42:47 ◼   ► Maybe it is, maybe we're going to see some strange stuff like, oh, we're going for the

00:42:53 ◼   ► iMac theme, the six color iMac theme in this next version of Widget Smith.

00:42:57 ◼   ► Oh man.

00:42:59 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:42:59 ◼   ► Wanted to share that news.

00:43:01 ◼   ► Uh, it was important to me.

00:43:02 ◼   ► I think it was more important to me than anyone else involved to disclose it, but, uh, I feel

00:43:07 ◼   ► like I need, you know, well, as you say, this journalistic hand wringing.

00:43:11 ◼   ► So can I ask you some journalistic questions?

00:43:13 ◼   ► Oh yes.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Can we see if there's any ethics involved here?

00:43:17 ◼   ► Like, do you imagine this is going to change you?

00:43:22 ◼   ► Like bias is a thing that people have, like it's just a thing that is inherent.

00:43:26 ◼   ► And now, like, when we're talking about some of this stuff, you're going to feel different,

00:43:31 ◼   ► right?

00:43:31 ◼   ► Does that bother you?

00:43:32 ◼   ► It doesn't bother me.

00:43:34 ◼   ► I'm curious how that's gonna be.

00:43:37 ◼   ► I mean, uh, David and I talked a lot about this of like, it is going to change how I

00:43:44 ◼   ► write, talk about things because I will have the experience of being in a company that

00:43:48 ◼   ► does third party development on Apple's platforms.

00:43:50 ◼   ► And that's not an experience that I've had.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Um, it's also not an experience that many people who do what I do on the commentary

00:43:58 ◼   ► side have, like a few people have done apps, but it does put me in somewhat of a unique

00:44:05 ◼   ► position where I can kind of combine these things in a new way.

00:44:09 ◼   ► But that's still all very new to me.

00:44:11 ◼   ► And like, we're going to have to feel it out and see how it goes.

00:44:15 ◼   ► But Underscore has been very clear from the beginning.

00:44:18 ◼   ► Like he understands that I have this, this journalistic commentator role and that that's

00:44:25 ◼   ► still my primary role, my primary job.

00:44:28 ◼   ► And to have, uh, that that needs its own independent voice.

00:44:33 ◼   ► And, you know, he's not going to get in the way of that, which I respect.

00:44:36 ◼   ► Um, but at the same time, right.

00:44:39 ◼   ► I do also now work with a company for a company that makes iOS apps and deals in the iOS app

00:44:48 ◼   ► store and like has to contend with all those things.

00:44:51 ◼   ► And so I do have to find those, those balances.

00:44:54 ◼   ► And that's really why I wanted to let people know.

00:44:56 ◼   ► Um, so, you know, when widget Smith comes up or when Underscore comes up as a topic,

00:45:03 ◼   ► right, then I have that disclosure.

00:45:05 ◼   ► But also when we talk about these things that people know that this is an influence now

00:45:09 ◼   ► that I have, because you're right.

00:45:10 ◼   ► Everyone does have bias.

00:45:11 ◼   ► No one is unbiased.

00:45:13 ◼   ► Even people like who work as like capital J journalist, which I do not, or like I count

00:45:19 ◼   ► myself as a commentator, but it's impossible to, to strain all of those out.

00:45:26 ◼   ► So it's best in my mind just to be upfront about it and to be honest about it.

00:45:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm very excited and intrigued from just from the content perspective to see how

00:45:38 ◼   ► your opinions adapt and to see what like the conversations will be.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Like, I'm just, it's intriguing to me, like, cause I, I want to see where that goes.

00:45:48 ◼   ► I also want to see where, like, you know, where, because of what we do for a living,

00:45:52 ◼   ► we draw content from our experiences, right?

00:45:56 ◼   ► We talk about the devices that we use.

00:45:59 ◼   ► We talk about what we use them for.

00:46:01 ◼   ► But you're about to change.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Like you're going to be using your devices for different things.

00:46:04 ◼   ► Like I know you've been running simulators and stuff like that, which is not a thing

00:46:08 ◼   ► that you do.

00:46:08 ◼   ► And so, you know, I also look forward to the point where the simulator means that you need

00:46:13 ◼   ► to get a Mac Pro again or something, right?

00:46:15 ◼   ► And you're going to be like, well, I wanted to have one laptop, one monitor, but now what

00:46:19 ◼   ► am I supposed to do?

00:46:20 ◼   ► You know, like that's going to happen too.

00:46:21 ◼   ► And I'm excited for all of that.

00:46:23 ◼   ► What's interesting is that also when developers, when, when eventually, eventually it comes

00:46:27 ◼   ► for all of them, when eventually they get rejected by app review to, to, to make a big

00:46:33 ◼   ► fuss about it.

00:46:33 ◼   ► Most of them run to the press.

00:46:35 ◼   ► And in this case, you just run to yourself.

00:46:37 ◼   ► It just runs to the mirror and he's like, this is unacceptable.

00:46:42 ◼   ► You know?

00:46:42 ◼   ► So, so that'll put you in an interesting spot if, and let's hope that it doesn't happen,

00:46:48 ◼   ► but if it happens, you already have, you know, the means to fight it in a different way.

00:46:54 ◼   ► So that's, that's an interesting position to be in.

00:46:57 ◼   ► It is.

00:46:57 ◼   ► I actually had that thought the other day.

00:47:01 ◼   ► It was like the, the don't run of the press line, you know, which is like, there are a

00:47:05 ◼   ► few things that Apple has said over the years that really sticks.

00:47:08 ◼   ► That's one of them.

00:47:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:11 ◼   ► I think they officially say that.

00:47:12 ◼   ► Like, was that like, I don't, I feel like I've lost the memory of it now.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Somebody find it.

00:47:18 ◼   ► It used to be printed.

00:47:18 ◼   ► Was it in the, um, the NDA that you used to sign?

00:47:23 ◼   ► It was.

00:47:24 ◼   ► It was.

00:47:25 ◼   ► It was.

00:47:26 ◼   ► I want to say that it was.

00:47:28 ◼   ► It was in like the iPhone NDA, like the IO or the iPhone OS NDA or something like that.

00:47:33 ◼   ► Somebody must have a diff version of, wasn't it in the, uh, was it in the human interface

00:47:39 ◼   ► guidelines at some point for the app store?

00:47:43 ◼   ► It was somewhere.

00:47:44 ◼   ► Um, I'm going to find it.

00:47:46 ◼   ► Don't run to the press, except it's the only thing that ever does anything.

00:47:50 ◼   ► It's true.

00:47:52 ◼   ► But yeah, congratulations on being both the developer and the press.

00:47:54 ◼   ► OTJ, real time feedback from OTJ.

00:47:57 ◼   ► It's in the app review guidelines.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Still.

00:48:00 ◼   ► I'm looking for it.

00:48:02 ◼   ► So we'll find it.

00:48:06 ◼   ► And if anybody has any follow up, please send it over.

00:48:09 ◼   ► But at least we know where, where it lives.

00:48:11 ◼   ► It lives there.

00:48:12 ◼   ► It has lived there.

00:48:13 ◼   ► Don't run to the press, Steven, but you should run to the press.

00:48:15 ◼   ► Let's talk about software updates.

00:48:19 ◼   ► This week we saw the release of iOS and iPadOS 17.3 watchOS 10.3 Sonoma 14.3 TVOS gotten

00:48:28 ◼   ► update as well, but there's no notes in here because, uh, Mike is retired as the TVOS fired.

00:48:33 ◼   ► Fired.

00:48:34 ◼   ► Um, uh, Federico, y'all had, uh, an overview of iOS and iPadOS 17.3 on the site.

00:48:43 ◼   ► Uh, can you talk us through some of the things that have been added or changed?

00:48:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:47 ◼   ► So there's a, the new, there's the new black unity wallpaper that Apple announced with

00:48:52 ◼   ► the press release.

00:48:53 ◼   ► Really cool looking, uh, cool looking wallpaper for your lock screen and more.

00:48:58 ◼   ► Uh, there's finally the collaborative playlists in Apple music.

00:49:02 ◼   ► Now that's that feature finally shipped, uh, obviously something that Spotify has had for

00:49:07 ◼   ► a few years was supposed to launch in 17.2.

00:49:10 ◼   ► It appeared in a beta, then it was postponed again.

00:49:13 ◼   ► Now it's here.

00:49:14 ◼   ► So now you can share a playlist with someone else on Apple music and you can collaborate

00:49:17 ◼   ► on that playlist.

00:49:18 ◼   ► I saw somebody say Federico that with the introduction of this, that's everything now

00:49:24 ◼   ► for iOS 17.

00:49:25 ◼   ► Like this was the last feature.

00:49:27 ◼   ► Is that true to your knowledge?

00:49:28 ◼   ► I think that is correct.

00:49:29 ◼   ► All the features that were preannounced that, uh, that, that to do list is finally complete.

00:49:35 ◼   ► I believe so.

00:49:36 ◼   ► It's all, it's all to be gained from here until WWDC.

00:49:41 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:49:41 ◼   ► Maybe 17.4 will have something.

00:49:43 ◼   ► Um, well the rumor is 17.4 will include the mechanisms for side loading.

00:49:49 ◼   ► Just a small, just a small thing.

00:49:52 ◼   ► I look forward to Steven's takes on side loading.

00:49:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:57 ◼   ► We have a developer here.

00:49:59 ◼   ► Um, come on.

00:50:00 ◼   ► So, oh no, no, no, no.

00:50:02 ◼   ► Just look, look, can I just pause you for a second there Federico?

00:50:05 ◼   ► Steven, what did you expect?

00:50:07 ◼   ► Right?

00:50:07 ◼   ► No, I know.

00:50:08 ◼   ► I know.

00:50:08 ◼   ► Okay, cool.

00:50:09 ◼   ► I'm just checking like that.

00:50:10 ◼   ► This isn't a surprise to you that we're going to give you a hard time.

00:50:13 ◼   ► Oh, believe me, there's lots more, lots more of this where it came from.

00:50:16 ◼   ► So this collaborative playlist, uh, uh, one feature worth noting here is that they have

00:50:24 ◼   ► the proper emoji reactions that we all wanted from iMessage.

00:50:28 ◼   ► Uh, you have the emoji picker in music.

00:50:31 ◼   ► So you can add any emoji you want.

00:50:33 ◼   ► You can see the emoji that other people have added to the playlist.

00:50:36 ◼   ► Really cool animation, really nice design.

00:50:39 ◼   ► I like this feature a lot and it's nice to be finally able to share a playlist and collaborate

00:50:44 ◼   ► on a playlist with someone else or multiple people at once.

00:50:47 ◼   ► And lastly, there's the stolen device protection, which is the feature that was launched in

00:50:53 ◼   ► response to the Wall Street Journal investigation from last year.

00:50:56 ◼   ► Essentially a set of functionalities that will disable the ability to reset your Apple

00:51:03 ◼   ► ID password and like reset your phone just by using the passcode of the device.

00:51:09 ◼   ► This is something that you can find, you can enable if you want to in settings, uh, touch

00:51:14 ◼   ► a face ID and passcode or touch ID and passcode, um, depending on which iPhone model you want,

00:51:19 ◼   ► you have.

00:51:20 ◼   ► And, uh, personally, it's something that I enabled right away in the first beta.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Okay.

00:51:25 ◼   ► I wanted to know if the two of you had done it.

00:51:27 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Big time.

00:51:29 ◼   ► As soon as it was available.

00:51:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:31 ◼   ► Okay.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Yeah. I don't think I've updated to 17.3 yet, but I will.

00:51:36 ◼   ► I, I also did it for every phone in my household and sent the link to some friends and family

00:51:44 ◼   ► of like, Hey, you really should, you really should turn this on the, the, the beauty of

00:51:49 ◼   ► this feature, the way it's designed is that there's very, it gets in the way very little

00:51:55 ◼   ► of you doing actual things, right?

00:51:57 ◼   ► Cause you could just authenticate with face ID or buy or touch ID.

00:52:02 ◼   ► And if you're at home or some other significant location, which we'll talk about in a second,

00:52:05 ◼   ► then you just do it again.

00:52:07 ◼   ► And you're fine.

00:52:08 ◼   ► That's not a big hurdle, right?

00:52:11 ◼   ► There's always a balance between security and like ease of use.

00:52:17 ◼   ► And I think they've done a pretty good job with that.

00:52:20 ◼   ► It's not like, Oh, I need to reset my Apple ID password.

00:52:23 ◼   ► I got to jump through five hoops.

00:52:24 ◼   ► You really don't.

00:52:26 ◼   ► It's really designed for the situation where someone else has your phone and your pin code.

00:52:31 ◼   ► And, and so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's a no brainer to turn this on.

00:52:36 ◼   ► I understand why it's not on by default.

00:52:38 ◼   ► It's maybe iOS 18.

00:52:42 ◼   ► Maybe they, they changed that.

00:52:43 ◼   ► I think that now that it's here, cause look, this is going to continue.

00:52:48 ◼   ► There will still be stories about people who have their pin code stolen and their phone

00:52:52 ◼   ► stolen and have their Apple ID taken away.

00:52:54 ◼   ► And that's horrific.

00:52:56 ◼   ► It's catastrophic really.

00:52:57 ◼   ► But now that there's a feature that makes that much harder, those stories in a way will

00:53:03 ◼   ► be worse for Apple.

00:53:05 ◼   ► And so I think that this being on by default is good for everybody.

00:53:09 ◼   ► Understand why it didn't just get flipped on in 0.3.

00:53:11 ◼   ► But at some point I've got to think that either it'll be a default or, and I cannot believe

00:53:18 ◼   ► I'm saying this.

00:53:18 ◼   ► Maybe it's worthy of a badge in the settings app to tell people about it and tell them

00:53:23 ◼   ► to turn it on.

00:53:23 ◼   ► You got to tell people like, and I think that's a fine way to do it, right?

00:53:27 ◼   ► That like it will probably be a part of the new phone set up maybe.

00:53:31 ◼   ► And other than that, you've got to let people know in case any listeners out there got lost

00:53:36 ◼   ► about what this feature was.

00:53:37 ◼   ► Like I did.

00:53:38 ◼   ► I definitely got lost and I was very happy to read Nelian's article on Mac stories.

00:53:44 ◼   ► I will read from that article.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Stolen device protection is an elegant solution to the problem of passcode theft.

00:53:50 ◼   ► It disables the passcode fallback for all critical operations, including resetting your

00:53:54 ◼   ► Apple ID password, because that's the thing you could do on your iPhone.

00:53:57 ◼   ► If you forgot your Apple ID, you could put your passcode in to reset it.

00:54:00 ◼   ► With it enabled, a password reset can only be performed using Face ID or Touch ID.

00:54:05 ◼   ► Stolen device protection also adds a one hour security delay for several sensitive actions

00:54:11 ◼   ► like changing your device passcode or your Face ID and Touch ID settings.

00:54:15 ◼   ► In practice, the security delay means you will have to authenticate with Face ID or

00:54:19 ◼   ► Touch ID, wait for one hour, and then authenticate again to be able to make the changes.

00:54:24 ◼   ► Accessing your saved passwords and passkeys, applying for a new Apple card, paying with

00:54:29 ◼   ► Apple Pay, erasing and resetting your iPhone, disabling lost mode, and turning off stolen

00:54:34 ◼   ► device protection itself are all actions that will be protected with stolen device protection

00:54:39 ◼   ► on.

00:54:39 ◼   ► So my one asterisk like question is paying with Apple Pay?

00:54:47 ◼   ► Like I know I've hit times where I've had to use my passcode for Apple Pay because it's

00:54:52 ◼   ► not working.

00:54:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:53 ◼   ► And that's one where I'm like, oh, you know, like, I don't know about that.

00:54:59 ◼   ► What I'm not sure I follow, what makes you uncertain about that?

00:55:03 ◼   ► That I wouldn't be able to use my passcode to pay with Apple Pay if Apple Pay, Face ID

00:55:09 ◼   ► is failing for me, which I have had.

00:55:11 ◼   ► So I guess what, do I just keep trying it?

00:55:14 ◼   ► Is that what happens?

00:55:15 ◼   ► Because I only see the passcode when it's not recognizing my face.

00:55:18 ◼   ► So what happens?

00:55:19 ◼   ► Does it just keep asking, show me your face, show me your face?

00:55:23 ◼   ► And like, is that what occurs?

00:55:24 ◼   ► Because I figure if it does that, eventually it's going to get it right.

00:55:28 ◼   ► But like, what is the fallback?

00:55:29 ◼   ► Because passcode was the fallback for Apple Pay.

00:55:32 ◼   ► Right.

00:55:32 ◼   ► So what is the fallback if it doesn't work?

00:55:35 ◼   ► It may be that you, so in times that I've had it fail, I definitely have seen it, seen

00:55:40 ◼   ► it as well.

00:55:40 ◼   ► It's because like Face ID had a false trigger.

00:55:43 ◼   ► Like I pulled my phone in my pocket and tried to unlock it accidentally and it didn't see

00:55:48 ◼   ► my face.

00:55:48 ◼   ► So it won't unlock.

00:55:50 ◼   ► At that point, maybe you have to stop, actually unlock your phone, like swipe up, do the Face

00:55:57 ◼   ► ID, and then use Apple Pay.

00:56:00 ◼   ► It does add some friction there.

00:56:01 ◼   ► But in my mind, I'm okay with that, I guess, given all the benefits.

00:56:07 ◼   ► But you're right.

00:56:07 ◼   ► It is something to be aware of.

00:56:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:10 ◼   ► I'm assuming that there's a way to deal with it.

00:56:12 ◼   ► Like that's just my only thing of like, oh, I don't know.

00:56:14 ◼   ► And it's a, maybe that would make me want to turn it off.

00:56:17 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, but I am going to turn it on because you're right.

00:56:19 ◼   ► It's like all of the benefits that you get, especially like some of the stuff that you've

00:56:23 ◼   ► got to do.

00:56:23 ◼   ► Like if I want to change, like my Apple ID passcode, go wait for an hour for it.

00:56:28 ◼   ► I think that's, I think that's okay.

00:56:30 ◼   ► But this stuff only happens.

00:56:33 ◼   ► You only have to wait that hour if you're away from familiar locations.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And we had Wigs write in to say, is there a way to change them?

00:56:40 ◼   ► And do you guys know about that?

00:56:41 ◼   ► Like, how do you define a significant location?

00:56:45 ◼   ► How is such a thing defined?

00:56:46 ◼   ► And then how could you maybe change it?

00:56:49 ◼   ► Do we know?

00:56:50 ◼   ► I did a bunch of reading about this and it seems like Apple is a little bit cagey about

00:57:00 ◼   ► how this works.

00:57:01 ◼   ► So you can go into settings, privacy and security location services, system services, significant

00:57:09 ◼   ► locations.

00:57:10 ◼   ► And so I looked at mine and it was my house, obviously where I work and live.

00:57:14 ◼   ► It was a coffee shop that I had a meeting at yesterday.

00:57:18 ◼   ► I was there for a couple of hours and then I had one of my kids' schools that I spent

00:57:22 ◼   ► some time at the other day.

00:57:23 ◼   ► So what it's doing is it's seeing where you are and it's like, oh, they spend a lot of

00:57:27 ◼   ► time here.

00:57:27 ◼   ► That's probably an important point of place.

00:57:29 ◼   ► Also though, in Apple's privacy policy, it says that your iPhone and iCloud connected

00:57:36 ◼   ► devices keep track of the places you've recently been as well as how often and when you visit

00:57:41 ◼   ► them in order to learn places that are significant to you.

00:57:45 ◼   ► The data is into an encrypted and cannot be read by Apple.

00:57:48 ◼   ► So I don't have any problems with this being turned on for me because Apple is not going

00:57:52 ◼   ► to see it.

00:57:52 ◼   ► I don't care if my phone knows where I've been.

00:57:54 ◼   ► But when you go in there, you can remove significant locations, but you can't tell it this address

00:58:04 ◼   ► is a significant location.

00:58:06 ◼   ► There's no, as far as I can tell, manual entry of a significant location.

00:58:11 ◼   ► Are they labeled in any way?

00:58:13 ◼   ► Let me see.

00:58:15 ◼   ► I don't think they are.

00:58:16 ◼   ► So I looked in 17.2, which isn't helpful, and I have a home and a work and I don't know

00:58:21 ◼   ► how they have been labeled.

00:58:23 ◼   ► Maybe it's pulling it from my contact card or something.

00:58:26 ◼   ► But then it also references like 180 other locations, but they're not, at least in 17.2,

00:58:30 ◼   ► not labeled.

00:58:31 ◼   ► So I wonder if they changed that.

00:58:34 ◼   ► Yeah, mine says home and then it says the name of the shopping center where that coffee

00:58:38 ◼   ► shop is.

00:58:38 ◼   ► I have 193 records and I can clear my history.

00:58:43 ◼   ► And as far as I know, it clears all of them and it syncs the clearing to your other iCloud

00:58:49 ◼   ► devices.

00:58:49 ◼   ► But yeah, there's not a way to tell it this is a significant place.

00:58:55 ◼   ► It does say, at least in 17.3, that this is for providing useful location related information

00:59:04 ◼   ► and maps, calendars, photos, and more.

00:59:06 ◼   ► And then again, it's in the encrypted and cannot be read by Apple.

00:59:08 ◼   ► So I would like some clarity to its point around what these locations like, can I define

00:59:17 ◼   ► my own like, you know, can I tell my device actually, I don't want my work to be a significant

00:59:24 ◼   ► location because maybe I work in a place where my phone isn't on me and I would want the

00:59:28 ◼   ► stolen device protection turned on, even though my work is a significant location.

00:59:33 ◼   ► I think there needs to be a bit more control over this, but at least currently there's

00:59:37 ◼   ► not.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Mike, you're my significant location.

00:59:39 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:59:41 ◼   ► So sweet.

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01:01:36 ◼   ► There's been a lot of conversation about the apps that are going to be available or not

01:01:44 ◼   ► for the Vision Pro.

01:01:47 ◼   ► I know that Federico kicked off some of this by looking through some data, which appeared

01:01:54 ◼   ► to be App Store information, or was App Store information that appears to show whether a

01:01:59 ◼   ► developer is opting out or offering a Vision Pro app or if it's going to be native.

01:02:06 ◼   ► And you selected a bunch of like very popular apps and a selection of categories.

01:02:10 ◼   ► And one of the main things that you found was that Spotify and YouTube, they weren't

01:02:16 ◼   ► going to be offering anything.

01:02:17 ◼   ► And then I think this is part of what spurred on Mark Gurman to actually go to these companies

01:02:26 ◼   ► and ask them, are you going to do this?

01:02:28 ◼   ► And they told him no, which then started a lot of conversation about like, what apps

01:02:34 ◼   ► are going to be available on the Vision Pro?

01:02:37 ◼   ► Like what is what are actually going to be there?

01:02:39 ◼   ► What iPad apps are going to be there?

01:02:41 ◼   ► What Vision apps are going to be there?

01:02:43 ◼   ► And it also echoes something that Apple was saying, because they had said YouTube and

01:02:48 ◼   ► Netflix would be viewable in a browser.

01:02:52 ◼   ► And so it kind of asks the question of, well, what about the browser?

01:02:57 ◼   ► I guess.

01:02:59 ◼   ► And so and then also David Pierce wrote a really nice article about just Safari and

01:03:05 ◼   ► the web and how that's probably going to be really important on the Vision Pro.

01:03:10 ◼   ► Yeah, so the idea being that some of the biggest services in the world like Spotify, all of

01:03:15 ◼   ► the Google apps, YouTube, obviously, they won't have native apps on the Vision Pro.

01:03:20 ◼   ► But that's not it doesn't paint a full picture because it's one thing not to offer a native

01:03:25 ◼   ► Vision OS app.

01:03:27 ◼   ► And it's another thing to say, well, our iPad apps that can run in theory in compatibility

01:03:33 ◼   ► mode by default, we are going to opt out of offering those iPad apps on the Vision Pro.

01:03:40 ◼   ► So that's something that a developer needs to do manually.

01:03:43 ◼   ► You need to go into App Store Connect and untick the checkbox where it says offer in

01:03:48 ◼   ► compatibility mode, running compatibility mode on Vision Pro.

01:03:51 ◼   ► And so Google, Spotify, all these bigger companies have gone there and they have disabled the

01:03:58 ◼   ► Netflix.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Obviously, they have disabled the ability to install the iPad app on your Vision Pro.

01:04:03 ◼   ► And obviously that sparked a conversation around, well, a common argument that I've

01:04:09 ◼   ► heard from a bunch of people is, well, but do you want to use the Google apps, the Google

01:04:13 ◼   ► iPad apps or any way?

01:04:15 ◼   ► Isn't it better to use the Google services in a browser, which to be fair?

01:04:21 ◼   ► Yeah, the iPad apps from Google are not good iPad apps.

01:04:25 ◼   ► They usually use, you know, they use custom text views.

01:04:29 ◼   ► They don't support none of the native like UI and interaction standards of iPad OS.

01:04:36 ◼   ► They are always late to the party when it comes to implementing new iPad technologies.

01:04:42 ◼   ► And yeah, it is better to use Google services in a browser.

01:04:45 ◼   ► And so that made me think, but is it still like, even if we follow that argument to its

01:04:52 ◼   ► logical conclusion, which is just use Google Docs or Google Sheets in Safari, is Safari

01:04:59 ◼   ► for iPad typically a good experience for modern web apps?

01:05:04 ◼   ► And I would say that still, despite Safari for iPad presenting itself as a desktop browser,

01:05:10 ◼   ► it's been the case for a few years, I still find it to be kind of hit or miss.

01:05:16 ◼   ► Like some most of the things, yeah, I can use Safari for iPad, but there is always something

01:05:22 ◼   ► for me, like in MailChimp, some things are always broken.

01:05:27 ◼   ► Like sometimes scrolling doesn't work.

01:05:30 ◼   ► Sometimes like things that are supposed to happen or appear on hover, sometimes they

01:05:35 ◼   ► don't with the iPad OS pointer.

01:05:38 ◼   ► Like there's always something that is kind of broken in Safari for iPad.

01:05:42 ◼   ► And so if you come to me and you say, but teach you just use Safari on the Vision Pro

01:05:47 ◼   ► and to use those services, my answer would be, is that going to be better than Safari

01:05:52 ◼   ► for iPad?

01:05:53 ◼   ► Because so far, like it's not as excellent as Safari for Mac and arguably Safari for

01:05:58 ◼   ► Mac kind of lags in comparison to like Google Chrome, for example, when it comes to taking

01:06:03 ◼   ► advantage of the latest web APIs, but still Safari for Mac is a better experience than

01:06:08 ◼   ► Safari for iPad.

01:06:09 ◼   ► And so is Safari for Vision Pro going to be based on that or is it going to be a more

01:06:14 ◼   ► full fledged browser like on the Mac?

01:06:16 ◼   ► And so far the answer seems to be it's going to be an iPad browser and it's not even going

01:06:20 ◼   ► to offer you the ability to install those web apps to your Vision OS home screen because

01:06:26 ◼   ► the button to add a web app to your home screen is not there.

01:06:30 ◼   ► Now, is that button not there?

01:06:33 ◼   ► Because it's just a matter of time constraints.

01:06:36 ◼   ► The Safari for Vision OS developers at Apple didn't have enough time to add that functionality

01:06:42 ◼   ► for Vision OS 1.0 or is it a strategic omission in the sense that, well, if you just add that

01:06:50 ◼   ► button there, it just creates an exit valve for Google and Spotify to say, well, we don't

01:06:56 ◼   ► want to build native apps for Vision OS because you can just save our web app to the home

01:07:01 ◼   ► screen.

01:07:02 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:07:03 ◼   ► I am intrigued by how this is going to work.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Like, we don't truly know what it's going to be like yet, right?

01:07:15 ◼   ► And we don't know how the device will work with a lot of these services.

01:07:22 ◼   ► I think for me, I've been paying attention to how I do work on my Mac.

01:07:28 ◼   ► And I'm not talking about podcast recording here because I'm not expecting to be able

01:07:32 ◼   ► to record podcasts on Vision Pro.

01:07:34 ◼   ► It's like everything else.

01:07:35 ◼   ► And outside of Safari, I use every day to get my work done.

01:07:40 ◼   ► Slack, Discord, Spark, Todoist, Timery, Notion, Fantastic Al, Messages, Notes, 1Password, and

01:07:47 ◼   ► Reader.

01:07:47 ◼   ► Now, I know a bunch of these apps are going to be there.

01:07:50 ◼   ► Like, actually native, like there is a large selection of these that will be in some way

01:07:56 ◼   ► or another.

01:07:57 ◼   ► But even the services where they might not be, a lot of them are accessible on the web

01:08:03 ◼   ► because they use web technologies, right?

01:08:05 ◼   ► Like, even if Slack wasn't going to be on the Vision Pro, I could just use Slack in

01:08:09 ◼   ► a web browser.

01:08:10 ◼   ► And in some of these instances, the experiences of using these apps isn't that different

01:08:18 ◼   ► than using like a Mac app and a web app, but that is on the Mac, right?

01:08:24 ◼   ► As you say Federico, I don't know what it's going to be like to use it on Vision Pro.

01:08:28 ◼   ► But I don't know, it feels like it's possible.

01:08:30 ◼   ► But there are going to be weird edge cases.

01:08:36 ◼   ► Like, I could imagine a scenario, right?

01:08:37 ◼   ► You go to YouTube and it's like, download the app.

01:08:40 ◼   ► But there isn't one.

01:08:42 ◼   ► >> Yeah.

01:08:42 ◼   ► >> You know, you get those pop-ups.

01:08:43 ◼   ► It's like, hey, just download the app from the App Store.

01:08:45 ◼   ► It's like, well, you didn't do that.

01:08:47 ◼   ► But it thinks you're coming from an iPad rather than a Vision Pro or whatever.

01:08:52 ◼   ► And obviously, there's been a lot of talk about this.

01:08:55 ◼   ► And I think interestingly, some discussion I think is overlapping pretty nicely what

01:09:00 ◼   ► we were talking about last week, right?

01:09:02 ◼   ► About the 27% thing.

01:09:04 ◼   ► And it's kind of like, the idea of a lot of these large companies just noping out of

01:09:13 ◼   ► this, it's not a surprise, right?

01:09:16 ◼   ► >> No.

01:09:16 ◼   ► >> Like, this is a scenario that Apple has made for themselves.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Like, at the same time when they are asking developers to jump in on a very small unit,

01:09:29 ◼   ► high effort platform, they're also continuing to erode relationships with companies of all

01:09:37 ◼   ► sizes.

01:09:37 ◼   ► Not in that like, the terms are changing, but it's like, hey, we're reminding you of

01:09:46 ◼   ► what we think of you.

01:09:47 ◼   ► Like, one of the things that we didn't talk about very much last week, but I've been

01:09:51 ◼   ► hearing a lot about and it's like a really, like, just an example of how they are treating

01:09:57 ◼   ► this 27% thing is the fact that the one link that you get to click has to have tracking

01:10:03 ◼   ► information in it.

01:10:04 ◼   ► And if a customer who used that link, if you can track that they signed up within seven

01:10:11 ◼   ► days, even if they left and come back, you still have to give them the money.

01:10:15 ◼   ► Which, like, there are levels of the short and froy of this where it's like Apple wants

01:10:20 ◼   ► you to track people on the web.

01:10:23 ◼   ► And like, I thought Safari removed those tracking URL things anyway, but like, maybe not for

01:10:30 ◼   ► Apple's links, which I guarantee you is the case, right?

01:10:34 ◼   ► And so it's like, when you balance these two things together, it's like, no, like, if

01:10:39 ◼   ► you wanted Spotify and YouTube to have apps available, you needed to court them and like,

01:10:47 ◼   ► you needed to make it something that they wanted to do.

01:10:50 ◼   ► And I don't think they think like that, right?

01:10:55 ◼   ► Like, they're just like, oh, people will come and maybe they will, right?

01:10:58 ◼   ► Like, it's a vision pro is that good.

01:11:01 ◼   ► And like, this is, you know, over the years, it like builds and builds.

01:11:05 ◼   ► People will want to develop for it, but there is a chicken and egg to this that we're

01:11:10 ◼   ► going to see.

01:11:11 ◼   ► Like maybe people, maybe every single review, right?

01:11:15 ◼   ► Of the vision pro spends paragraphs on minutes talking about the fact that the experience

01:11:22 ◼   ► of using third-party services is not good.

01:11:24 ◼   ► That's going to turn people off.

01:11:25 ◼   ► And like, and then how do you change it?

01:11:29 ◼   ► Because if Apple isn't going to try and like get these large companies on side of them,

01:11:35 ◼   ► then they're not going to bring their apps to the platform, which means people won't

01:11:40 ◼   ► buy it.

01:11:40 ◼   ► But Apple is hoping people will buy it to convince them.

01:11:45 ◼   ► But like, where is the push and pull going to be there?

01:11:48 ◼   ► Like, it's kind of fascinating to see all these things kind of like smashing together

01:11:53 ◼   ► in real time.

01:11:55 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, in most cases, it's also like a, it is a transaction, right?

01:11:59 ◼   ► Between these companies.

01:12:01 ◼   ► And if you're Spotify and you're looking at it, like you said, you're looking at this

01:12:05 ◼   ► new platform, it's unproven territory, very expensive device that few, you know, let's

01:12:11 ◼   ► say hundreds of thousands of people are going to get a vision pro.

01:12:15 ◼   ► If it becomes convenient for Spotify, like if the Spotify user base keeps asking them

01:12:21 ◼   ► for a vision pro app because it's their favorite device, it's their new main computer, you

01:12:28 ◼   ► can bet that Spotify is going to make a vision pro app if it becomes necessary for them.

01:12:32 ◼   ► If it's a business thing, like if our users are asking for that, then we're going to make

01:12:37 ◼   ► it.

01:12:37 ◼   ► That's how it would run my business.

01:12:40 ◼   ► Even if you absolutely hate Apple, you're still a company and you got to respond to

01:12:46 ◼   ► your users, right?

01:12:48 ◼   ► So and your customers in this case, like I have to believe that if the vision pro really

01:12:54 ◼   ► hits critical mass at some point and it becomes ridiculous that Netflix and Spotify don't

01:12:59 ◼   ► offer native or even just decent, barely passable vision or as experiences, they will make those

01:13:07 ◼   ► apps or maybe they will just start by flipping the switch on the iPad version in compatibility

01:13:11 ◼   ► mode.

01:13:12 ◼   ► But right now, the, you know, all the leverage is in those companies hands.

01:13:17 ◼   ► They can say, well, you've been treating us badly.

01:13:20 ◼   ► We don't know about this platform.

01:13:22 ◼   ► We're not sure.

01:13:23 ◼   ► So yeah, we'll skip it for now.

01:13:25 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that the the boys over on dithering, they had an episode I think last week called

01:13:32 ◼   ► Apple Reaps What It Sows.

01:13:33 ◼   ► But it's perfectly said.

01:13:36 ◼   ► I mean, there's no there's no accident that these big media companies that have not commit

01:13:42 ◼   ► to the vision pro yet or the same ones that have issue with Apple's other policies.

01:13:47 ◼   ► And the thing that really stinks about all that is the customer that loses, right?

01:13:52 ◼   ► The the person who buys a vision pro and is stuck using Netflix and Safari or not being

01:14:01 ◼   ► able to access all the features of Spotify or whatever it is.

01:14:03 ◼   ► At the end of the day, they don't care about the the debate between Apple and these other

01:14:10 ◼   ► companies.

01:14:11 ◼   ► They may not even know about it.

01:14:13 ◼   ► I mean, right now on day one, they probably all do because day one vision pro buyers are

01:14:17 ◼   ► going to be nerdy.

01:14:18 ◼   ► But down the road, if this continues to be unsolved, it's the customers that that ultimately

01:14:26 ◼   ► are at the short end of the stick.

01:14:28 ◼   ► And that's going to backfire because they're not going to know if it's Apple's fault or

01:14:33 ◼   ► if it's Netflix's fault or whoever.

01:14:35 ◼   ► And they may blame Apple.

01:14:37 ◼   ► They may blame Netflix.

01:14:39 ◼   ► They may blame both.

01:14:41 ◼   ► But it's the customer who loses.

01:14:43 ◼   ► And that's so.

01:14:43 ◼   ► So.

01:14:46 ◼   ► Against what everything Apple says that it believes about putting customer service and

01:14:52 ◼   ► customer experience first, that that's what gets me is like these companies are so hard

01:14:57 ◼   ► headed over these things that they're hurting the very people whose products that who they

01:15:03 ◼   ► make the products for.

01:15:05 ◼   ► And that that just that stinks.

01:15:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:11 ◼   ► Well, I think that does it for this week.

01:15:13 ◼   ► If you want to find a link to the stuff we spoke about there in your podcast player,

01:15:16 ◼   ► they're also on the Web at Relay.fm/connected/486.

01:15:21 ◼   ► While you're there, you become a member and get connected pro to a longer ad free version

01:15:25 ◼   ► of the show that we do each and every week.

01:15:27 ◼   ► You can find us all online.

01:15:30 ◼   ► Federico is the editor in chief of Mac stories dot net.

01:15:33 ◼   ► Lots of great coverage of Mac stories.

01:15:35 ◼   ► I can't wait for you all to start getting into Vision OS apps in a couple of weeks.

01:15:39 ◼   ► I assume you got big plans there.

01:15:41 ◼   ► Yeah, I was thinking about this.

01:15:42 ◼   ► Like I'll just have the Mac stories page open.

01:15:44 ◼   ► I'll just keep refreshing to find out what I need to go download.

01:15:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:15:47 ◼   ► That is the plan.

01:15:48 ◼   ► That is the plan.

01:15:48 ◼   ► That is the plan.

01:15:49 ◼   ► Although, you know, I do wonder like very quick, like, is it going to be possible to

01:15:56 ◼   ► just look at all of the apps like like what it was like when the iPhone came out?

01:16:00 ◼   ► I think that might be possible, right?

01:16:02 ◼   ► Coming to a room by the numbers.

01:16:03 ◼   ► You might just be able to go to the app store and just look at all of them and you could

01:16:06 ◼   ► just go through all of them.

01:16:07 ◼   ► I'm excited about I'm genuinely excited about the possibility of doing that.

01:16:11 ◼   ► We'll see how it goes.

01:16:12 ◼   ► The real irony would be to have a comeback of the I am rich app on a vision pro.

01:16:17 ◼   ► The vision pro kind of is the I am rich app.

01:16:21 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:16:21 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:16:22 ◼   ► You can find Federico on Mastodon as Vitici at Mac stories dot net and on threads as

01:16:31 ◼   ► Vitici, V I T I C C I.

01:16:35 ◼   ► You can find Mike on a bunch of other shows here on relay FM.

01:16:38 ◼   ► That episode of upgrade really is good and it was so much fun being on it.

01:16:41 ◼   ► Go check that out.

01:16:42 ◼   ► There's a link in the show notes that you can also find Mike's product work over at

01:16:46 ◼   ► Cortex brand.

01:16:47 ◼   ► You can find him on Mastodon as I Mike and Mike dot social and you can follow him on

01:16:53 ◼   ► threads as I Mike.

01:16:54 ◼   ► You can find my writing at 512 pixels dot net and I co-host Mac power users every Sunday

01:16:59 ◼   ► here on relay FM.

01:17:01 ◼   ► You can find me on Mastodon as I estimate that E world dot social and I smh 86 on

01:17:06 ◼   ► threads.

01:17:07 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors this week for making the show possible notion square

01:17:12 ◼   ► space and E cam.

01:17:12 ◼   ► Go check them out.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Thank you to our members and until next week guys.

01:17:16 ◼   ► Say goodbye.

01:17:18 ◼   ► I do that you cheerio.

01:17:21 ◼   ► Bye all.

01:17:22 ◼   ► [ Apologies for the copyright ]