0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02- From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 501.
0:00:13Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace
0:00:16and Ooni Pizza Ovens.
0:00:17It is February 26th, 2024.
0:00:21My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow.
0:00:23Hello, Jason.
0:00:25- Happy February 26th, Mike.
0:00:27- To all who celebrate.
0:00:29To all who celebrate, yes.
0:00:30Whoever they are, wherever they are.
0:00:32- I have a snow talk question for you.
0:00:34It comes from Seb.
0:00:35Seb would like to know,
0:00:36how much has the video version of Upgrade
0:00:38complicated the recording process
0:00:40when you are away from home?
0:00:42- Hmm, hmm.
0:00:44Well, for me, so I was away from home last week.
0:00:47It only complicated it 'cause I use,
0:00:51actually, I use for both travel
0:00:53and for when I'm here at home,
0:00:55I use camo with my iPhone as my camera.
0:01:00I don't use continuity camera
0:01:03because I found that continuity camera
0:01:05is a little flakier than camo
0:01:07in the direct wired connection.
0:01:08I have more control over it.
0:01:10So I'm using camo instead of just continuity camera.
0:01:13So the real complication is just that
0:01:17I have to bring something to put the camera on
0:01:21to get the proper angle.
0:01:22And I actually have got now a little setup
0:01:25where I've got a, I bought a little tripod,
0:01:28a little cheap tripod on Amazon
0:01:30that has a like flip out phone holder attachment,
0:01:32like a glyph, except it's built into it.
0:01:35And it's got a little tilt head and stuff.
0:01:37And then it, but I didn't like the legs,
0:01:41but it's actually standard tripod connector.
0:01:45And my Insta360 little selfie stick tripod thing
0:01:49with the, the cheap one on Amazon
0:01:53didn't have an adjustable,
0:01:54like you can't lift it up and push it down.
0:01:56It's only one height,
0:01:57even though it's got the tilt head and stuff.
0:01:59The Insta360 combination selfie stick tripod thing,
0:02:03that's its whole thing is it's super adjustable.
0:02:05So I actually am using the base from the,
0:02:07I'm using the Insta360 thing
0:02:09with the head of the other cheap tripod thing.
0:02:12And it folds up real nice.
0:02:14It works with my phone.
0:02:15It fits on the desk at my mom's house
0:02:18where I was doing the show last week.
0:02:20It's great.
0:02:21So that is my only, I'd say my only real complication
0:02:25because I got, I got USB cords and I got my phone with me.
0:02:28So there's a little bit of like lighting issues there.
0:02:31I'm more concerned about them for when I do Mac break weekly
0:02:33because that is a video show primarily,
0:02:36or at least produced that way.
0:02:38And so I'm a little more concerned about that.
0:02:41But you know, even then I have a,
0:02:43I have actually I have a green screen at my mom's house
0:02:46and the lighting is very good
0:02:47'cause there's a wall out the window
0:02:49that in the morning bounces the light off
0:02:52of the stucco wall and into my face.
0:02:54It's actually shamed me about how bad my lighting is
0:02:57at my studio because the lighting is better
0:03:00at my mom's house.
0:03:01It's true.
0:03:02It is better there.
0:03:03So other than a little bit of brain power
0:03:06to like think about it and having invested in that tripod,
0:03:10which I also use like when I'm in the Studio B
0:03:13back of my house, I use the same setup.
0:03:15So, you know, not a lot, but a little bit.
0:03:17I mean, more than not worrying about it at all.
0:03:20How about you?
0:03:22- I like the idea of the green screen at your mom's
0:03:24'cause you could just green screen your own office.
0:03:27- Look at everybody look at last week's Mac break weekly
0:03:30and it looks like I'm in my office.
0:03:31- Oh, really?
0:03:33- Oh yeah.
0:03:33- Oh, I need to go check that out.
0:03:34I'm gonna go look at that right now.
0:03:36- Yeah, I need to build a video loop.
0:03:39That's my next to do is to build a video loop of my office.
0:03:44- Why would you need that though?
0:03:45- Because I've got, so I've got the,
0:03:48for Mac break, I turn on the lava lamp in my background
0:03:51and it has little bubbles moving
0:03:52and there's just a bubble that suspended forever.
0:03:54And that's the tell.
0:03:56And I actually kind of love the idea that it's-
0:03:57- Oh, this is really good, Jason.
0:03:59- Right?
0:04:00- This looks really good 'cause you blurred it too, right?
0:04:01So like-
0:04:02- Oh yeah, yeah, it's got, I put the bouquet in there
0:04:04just to make it a little less obvious that it was,
0:04:07yeah, exactly.
0:04:08- 'Cause the funny thing is Alex Lindsay,
0:04:11I assume is sitting in his actual office
0:04:14and has a really good camera or whatever.
0:04:15And so he has a bit of a blur, so keep doing it too.
0:04:19(laughing)
0:04:21That's very funny to me.
0:04:23You're just like, well, you can play it that game.
0:04:25- Yeah, I see, yes, that's right.
0:04:26I can do that too.
0:04:27Anyway, I did get a message last week from somebody who said,
0:04:30"Wow, do you have a new setup?
0:04:31"You looked great on Mac break weekly."
0:04:32And I thought, oh boy, I like, it's a worse,
0:04:35it sounded great.
0:04:36I'm like, it's a worse microphone.
0:04:38It's not any different camera.
0:04:39It's the lighting.
0:04:40- I will just say like, we didn't mention it
0:04:43on last week's episode,
0:04:44but like you were using a different mic.
0:04:45I hate that mic for you.
0:04:47Like, and I've said to you before,
0:04:48it's just because I am used to a very specific sound of Jason
0:04:53and I don't like it.
0:04:54I don't even like the USB-C version
0:04:58of that microphone that you have for you.
0:05:00- Yeah, no, that's what that is.
0:05:02So I use, I use the podcasting nerdery,
0:05:06but like there's a commonly promoted by us,
0:05:11like best cheap starter podcast mic,
0:05:14which is the Audio-Technica mic.
0:05:16And I traveled with that because I made two stops.
0:05:20I went to LA and I went to my mom's house.
0:05:23I was gone for six days
0:05:25and I felt I needed a little more space in my suitcase.
0:05:28I think in hindsight, I should have just taken the MV7,
0:05:31which is the, what I have in the back of the house,
0:05:34which is very similar to the SM7B I have out here.
0:05:38And I chose not to.
0:05:41And then I had the moment where I thought, you know,
0:05:43I could just leave the Audio-Technica mic
0:05:45at my mom's house with the green screen
0:05:47and the mic stand and all of these other things
0:05:49and just kind of leave it there
0:05:50so I don't need to travel with it.
0:05:51And I had that thought of like, hmm, no,
0:05:55I don't want this to be the mic that I use when I'm here.
0:05:58So in future, I'm gonna travel with the Shure mic,
0:06:02which is a better sound.
0:06:03It's more like this one.
0:06:04- But yeah, to actually answer,
0:06:07'cause I got sidetracked by your incredible
0:06:09audio video. - Background.
0:06:12Don't tell anybody it's secret.
0:06:13You'll never know now, never know.
0:06:15- It has been well-documented, especially in Upgrade Plus.
0:06:18I have been putting a lot less effort into the video
0:06:23than Jason has mainly because really,
0:06:26you are doing a podcast that I think in Mic Break Weekly,
0:06:31I don't know if incongruously is the word I'm looking for,
0:06:35but like, Twitch shows go video, the video first,
0:06:38even though-- - They're TV shows
0:06:39that have an audio podcast version, but they're TV shows.
0:06:42They're built as TV shows.
0:06:43Leo's History, yeah, it's TV.
0:06:45- So you kind of have to put the effort in there
0:06:48where we're very much just playing around with stuff.
0:06:51And the clips really, I think, it's fine.
0:06:56By the way, I will implore people to check out
0:06:58either our Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube.
0:07:00I put links in the show notes.
0:07:01If you have any of these platforms,
0:07:04if you not follow us on those, you should.
0:07:05The short clips, especially, they're just really good fun.
0:07:09Like, you may think to yourself,
0:07:10but I've already heard them say that.
0:07:13It's really fun to watch back our reactions
0:07:16to the things that we say sometimes,
0:07:17and our editor, Chip, puts in some fun little details.
0:07:20Sometimes there's also stuff
0:07:21that we never actually spoke about in the show,
0:07:23but we did record it, but it's more interesting as a clip
0:07:27than it is as being in the show, so they're there for you.
0:07:30But I have a whole plan that I delayed
0:07:33because of Vision Pro expenses
0:07:35to make my setup better for video.
0:07:37So I can have a whole plan.
0:07:38I'm very excited about it, actually.
0:07:40It's gonna look better.
0:07:40And once I've actually done that,
0:07:42my video when I travel will be able to be better.
0:07:44'Cause previously, I've just been using,
0:07:48when I was traveling,
0:07:49I just used my laptop camera, which is terrible.
0:07:52I hate it.
0:07:53But I'm actually planning on buying a refurbished iPhone
0:07:56for my camera in the studio,
0:07:59and then I'll just take that with me
0:08:01and have that as my camera for if we record
0:08:04when I'm traveling.
0:08:05So it is, just in general, though,
0:08:08the video has complicated things,
0:08:10but not to a level that we haven't got used to.
0:08:14And also, there is kind of like, we're still audio first.
0:08:17If something goes wrong with a video,
0:08:18it is kind of just like, oh, well, that's what happened.
0:08:22- I'd say there's almost an effort cutoff.
0:08:24Like when I went to my daughter's graduation from college,
0:08:31I recorded an episode of "Upgrade" in an Airbnb.
0:08:34And you know what?
0:08:35It was on the MacBook Air webcam in bad lighting.
0:08:38It looked terrible, but it crossed the line
0:08:41of I just, I couldn't do it.
0:08:44Now I've got a better setup.
0:08:45Like we're building, I think what I would say
0:08:47is we're building our setups to get us across the line
0:08:51of this is appropriate, but it has required me
0:08:54to buy different tripods and try different setups up.
0:08:58We'll get there about it.
0:08:59So not nothing, Seb, not nothing, but it's fine.
0:09:04Like we're also not overdoing it
0:09:05because we are a podcast first
0:09:06and the video is entirely secondary.
0:09:09That said, I hope that for our podcast listeners
0:09:12or people who don't listen a lot to podcasts
0:09:14because they're sort of YouTube first people,
0:09:16I mean, that's one of the reasons we're doing this
0:09:18is the short version is we don't intend
0:09:20to become a YouTube show or anything,
0:09:21but I do think that there are people out there
0:09:23who don't get podcasts.
0:09:24They don't understand it or it doesn't work in their life
0:09:27and they love YouTube and they have YouTube stuff
0:09:30on all the time.
0:09:30And I would like us to make our show available there
0:09:33and if we can make it available with our faces
0:09:35instead of just like a logo on a screen,
0:09:38I think that would be better.
0:09:39So-
0:09:40- You know what we should do,
0:09:41which I don't think we have done, but we should do
0:09:44is actually tell YouTube that our channel is a podcast.
0:09:48- Oh, maybe we could do that.
0:09:50Can we do that?
0:09:51- I don't know how you do it.
0:09:53- How do we break that to them?
0:09:54- It's doable.
0:09:55Like there is a thing that you can do.
0:09:57I mean, this is like a weird thing that Cortex is it,
0:09:59but we didn't do it.
0:10:00YouTube did it for us.
0:10:01- Yeah, oh, interesting.
0:10:02- But I know that there is a way now to kind of be like,
0:10:05"Hey, this is a podcast."
0:10:06And what that allows is people can watch the video,
0:10:09but then they can also tap a button
0:10:10and it turns off the video
0:10:11if they just want to listen to us as a podcast.
0:10:13- So another funny little data point,
0:10:15a podcast that I mentioned during the upgrade
0:10:17is "The Rest is History," a podcast I really like
0:10:19with the two British historians.
0:10:21I found their YouTube channel while I was traveling
0:10:24and I watched one of their episodes as a video on YouTube,
0:10:27because it turns out they have recently started doing
0:10:29exactly what we're doing,
0:10:31right down to the fact that one of them is facing left
0:10:33and one of them is facing right
0:10:34and they're recording it separately from there.
0:10:36It's hilarious.
0:10:38It's like exactly what we're doing.
0:10:41And I kind of nodded along and I was like,
0:10:43"Okay, this is great."
0:10:44Like if I want to watch them in a YouTube context, I can,
0:10:47but if I just want to listen to their audio episodes,
0:10:49which is true most of the time, I can do that too.
0:10:52And then they also do little clips,
0:10:53which I enjoy.
0:10:55And the Flop House does that.
0:10:56They don't post the full episodes, but they post the clips.
0:10:58And I like watching clips of things I've already heard
0:11:01because I get to see their faces
0:11:02and it's the funniest of the jokes from that episode.
0:11:05And so that's,
0:11:06I don't mind listening to the funny jokes again.
0:11:08So yeah, it's, anyway, this is a lot.
0:11:10I wonder if, is this listener Seb,
0:11:11who I actually met last weekend in LA?
0:11:14Maybe it is anyway.
0:11:16Hi, listener Seb.
0:11:17- Let's do some Vision Pro follow-up.
0:11:21So we had an anonymous person write in
0:11:23and they said, "I work in Apple retail.
0:11:26From mid-January, we started receiving training
0:11:29for the Vision Pro on delivering the perfect script
0:11:32for the demo of the Apple Vision Pro.
0:11:35There was no training on what light seal numbers mean.
0:11:38Vision Pros are meant to be picked up in store,
0:11:40so everyone in theory gets the right light seal
0:11:43and band size before they come into us.
0:11:45But we have no guidance on what their sizes
0:11:47and numbers actually mean.
0:11:49We just follow a questionnaire to get a new size
0:11:52if requested, which can change every time
0:11:54on how subjectively the person answers Seb questions."
0:11:57- Uh-huh, yeah, you can literally game it.
0:11:59- Yep.
0:12:01- 'Cause you can do that online too
0:12:02when you're doing a return.
0:12:04'Cause I got the 14 or whatever and I'm sending it back
0:12:06because it's just not, or I have sent it back now
0:12:09because it didn't fit at all.
0:12:10It really put all the pressure on my cheekbones
0:12:13and I'm not convinced I have the right size.
0:12:15I think the 21 is maybe the right size for me,
0:12:18but I've sort of tried this and failed
0:12:20and I don't know what I'm gonna do.
0:12:21But this follows up what we were saying before,
0:12:23which is lots of focus on the demo
0:12:25and getting every word right.
0:12:26And then kind of being at sea
0:12:29when it comes to the sizing stuff,
0:12:32which I think they should do a much better job of.
0:12:34- Yep.
0:12:36Vision Pro units are cracking.
0:12:38- (gasps)
0:12:39Crack gate.
0:12:40- Crack gate.
0:12:41- How is a Vision Pro like a G4 Cube?
0:12:44- Crack gate.
0:12:45- Cracks.
0:12:46- Crack gate.
0:12:47- So there's been a bunch of articles written about this.
0:12:49It's, I believe, started with a selection of users
0:12:53on the Vision Pro subreddit,
0:12:55posting that they have cracks along the center
0:12:57of the front screens at their Vision Pro.
0:12:59So right in, basically right in the middle.
0:13:02No one obviously knows at this point why this is happening.
0:13:06It appears to be, you would assume
0:13:07some kind of manufacturing issue.
0:13:10One of the things to me
0:13:11that really kind of lent credence to this,
0:13:14because you never really know what's going on
0:13:16with this kind of stuff,
0:13:18is it actually happened to Engadget's review unit as well.
0:13:21The same crack.
0:13:22So it's essentially on the middle of the front glass
0:13:25is where it's happening.
0:13:26There's a bunch of images in the Verge article
0:13:29and the Engadget article that I put in the show notes.
0:13:32But yeah, it's definitely making me,
0:13:34every time I pick up my Vision Pro in the morning,
0:13:36just taking a look.
0:13:37Just like, oh, it got the crack.
0:13:38No, that's great.
0:13:40There you go, it's happening. - Just give it a look
0:13:41and check it out.
0:13:42Yeah, no, I mean, it's 1.0 hardware.
0:13:44It's incredibly complicated.
0:13:45I'm actually not surprised.
0:13:47And I would imagine, I mean, either Apple will say,
0:13:50look, it doesn't affect your,
0:13:52we know that it might happen and it doesn't affect it,
0:13:55or they'll say, we will replace it.
0:13:57You know, send it to us and we'll replace it or whatever.
0:14:01- But it does seem like so far,
0:14:02like with the people that have had it happen,
0:14:04like it isn't affecting anything, but it's there.
0:14:07It seems to be, at the moment, mostly a cosmetic issue,
0:14:11which I think is also good.
0:14:12Because if something like that happens
0:14:15and it disrupts the cameras or whatever.
0:14:17- Nobody wants to see you in this thing anyway.
0:14:19- Not great.
0:14:20- No matter what it looks like.
0:14:22- What's new with your Vision Pro experience?
0:14:26- Oh, what's new with the Vision Pro?
0:14:28- Yeah.
0:14:29- So I mentioned I traveled last week.
0:14:30I mentioned I used it on the plane.
0:14:32Had the weird errors.
0:14:34Used it a little bit and Phoenix have used it here too.
0:14:37Big story for me, I think,
0:14:38is that I went on the developer beta.
0:14:40- Oh God, Jason, why?
0:14:42Why'd you do it?
0:14:43- You know, because it's my job.
0:14:45I figured like, okay, let's try it and I can report.
0:14:47I think the personas are better.
0:14:49I did a very quick persona capture in Phoenix
0:14:53when I was not at my best.
0:14:55And I still think it is a much better representation of me
0:14:58than the one I was using before.
0:15:01So I think the personas are better.
0:15:03However, I'm just gonna say, don't put the beta on people.
0:15:08The eye tracking and other input stuff
0:15:10isn't just a total mess.
0:15:11I can't, I was writing a lot.
0:15:13I think one of the things that I found
0:15:15in the vision pro that I like
0:15:16is that it is another place for me to write.
0:15:18I can sit on the couch or whatever,
0:15:21and I can kind of isolate
0:15:23and just get a screen in front of me
0:15:24with like runestone on it.
0:15:25And I can write articles and have things to the side.
0:15:28But like mostly I'm focused on the thing.
0:15:30I like that.
0:15:32It's like writing on the iPad.
0:15:34I've got a little Bluetooth keyboard.
0:15:35It's great.
0:15:36But I kind of can't do it on the developer beta
0:15:39because eye tracking is all over the place.
0:15:42Input is all over the place.
0:15:44I get lots of inaccurate clicks.
0:15:49Clicks when I'm not moving my fingers together.
0:15:52My eye tracking is not looking at the right place.
0:15:54Even if I rerun eye tracking, it just doesn't seem right.
0:15:58It is kind of broken.
0:16:00So I'm here to warn you not to do it
0:16:05because no improved persona is worth this.
0:16:09- And I am assuming there's kind of no way to go back, right?
0:16:13- Well, I could put it in reset mode.
0:16:15Since I have a developer strap, I could actually do that,
0:16:19but I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna grin and bear it.
0:16:22And that's, it's fine.
0:16:24It's fine.
0:16:25- Oh, I actually, similarly,
0:16:28I've had some flakiness of eye tracking
0:16:31and I'm on the shipping version.
0:16:33Like today I had to redo my eye tracking again
0:16:36to get it to work.
0:16:37It just, I would look at something
0:16:40and it was selected for a second and flick away.
0:16:42It's like, I couldn't move any windows.
0:16:44I have also noticed sometimes the system knows
0:16:49where you're looking, even though it's not highlighting that,
0:16:53if that makes sense.
0:16:54So sometimes I've found that I can look at something
0:16:57and it's not highlighting, but if I pinch,
0:16:59it will do what I want.
0:17:00And so I think there was a combo of both things happening.
0:17:04But once I redid my eye tracking,
0:17:06it was perfect, like it worked perfectly again.
0:17:10But I don't know why that's happening, right?
0:17:13Like, which is just interesting.
0:17:14It's like, what's changed?
0:17:15But this is the bleeding edge-ness of this computer.
0:17:19It's like something, it is perceiving something differently.
0:17:22I have no idea what it is.
0:17:24- Yeah, it could be something on your face.
0:17:25It could be that your hair has grown or been cut
0:17:30and the fit is a little different.
0:17:32And so the angle is a little different, right?
0:17:34Like there's so many things it could be.
0:17:36- Yep, so I kind of, I'm giving the machine grace, right,
0:17:40in doing these things and not being like,
0:17:43oh, this is so annoying,
0:17:44but it is just a thing that I'm spotting.
0:17:47I have kind of set on something for me
0:17:50for where I think this device really works best.
0:17:52So I leave my Vision Pro at my studio.
0:17:57I don't take it home because it's just too much weight
0:18:01to just keep moving backwards and forwards.
0:18:04So I leave it there.
0:18:05And so I'm mostly using it when I'm here,
0:18:07which actually works best for me anyway,
0:18:09of like a way that I would want to use it.
0:18:11Like when I'm at home,
0:18:12I'm either gonna be wanting to spend time with my wife
0:18:15or be playing video games.
0:18:17And the Vision Pro is not the right device for me
0:18:19for either of those things.
0:18:20And so it would be mostly wasted at home.
0:18:23And so what I've been doing mostly
0:18:25is like I'm trying to do my intense work in the mornings
0:18:29with the Vision Pro on,
0:18:31and then also just using it sporadically through the day.
0:18:34And where I've found the device to be the most enjoyable
0:18:37and the way that I kind of think of it
0:18:39is the Vision Pro is like the perfect noodling computer,
0:18:42which from what I mean by that is,
0:18:46so like there is a point in the day where I say today,
0:18:49I've done my work in the morning of preparing upgrade,
0:18:52which is like the biggest job I do on a Monday.
0:18:55And then I have one meeting,
0:18:57then I have the stretch of like 90 minutes
0:18:59before I have another meeting.
0:19:02And so during that time, typically,
0:19:03I'm just kind of noodling around.
0:19:05I'm doing this little task here,
0:19:07reading these messages here in Slack,
0:19:12looking at this email here or whatever.
0:19:15And I kind of consider this as like noodling around.
0:19:17And iPads are really good for this, I find.
0:19:20You're just like poking around,
0:19:21you're going from this to this.
0:19:22Hey, what's going on over here?
0:19:24The Vision Pro is perfect for this
0:19:25because you can do all of the noodling
0:19:28with all of the apps open, right?
0:19:29And that's what I like about it.
0:19:30Like I can just set a bunch of apps
0:19:32and I'm like, what's going on over here?
0:19:34Oh, can we go check on these tabs?
0:19:36Oh, like in today,
0:19:37I was like looking at some home furnishing stuff
0:19:39and I was like, oh, just like clicking around this website,
0:19:42which is really nice with the eye tracking,
0:19:44like, oh, I like that cushion.
0:19:45This looks nice, that looks nice.
0:19:47Let me add that to a note, send it to my wife.
0:19:48Like that kind of work,
0:19:51the Vision Pro is the best computer I own at it.
0:19:55Like it's better than an iPad
0:19:56because it's many iPads, right?
0:19:59It's like six iPads at once.
0:20:01- It's many iPads.
0:20:02So I find for like the intense work stuff,
0:20:05it's definitely getting the job done,
0:20:07but still I'm mostly just using the Mac inside of it.
0:20:10And at that point, it's not that much better.
0:20:14It's better in some ways worse than others.
0:20:16I think that this could be improved
0:20:18by there being a native Google Docs application.
0:20:21Like I think that will help if and when that ever happens
0:20:24because using Google Docs in Safari,
0:20:26while it works is not ideal.
0:20:27Maybe it will be better,
0:20:28but I'll probably still prefer my Mac for it.
0:20:32So I find it to be good at the intense stuff,
0:20:35but excellent at the kind of noodling around stuff.
0:20:39- Yeah, I agree with you.
0:20:40I have the same sort of feelings
0:20:41that you end up kind of like flipping around
0:20:43to a bunch of different stuff.
0:20:44And part of that is what it's good at right now
0:20:47and what apps are available.
0:20:50I did watch a movie in it for the incomparable.
0:20:54I watched most of a movie just that was my homework in it
0:20:58because it was a bigger screen.
0:21:00So I was literally sitting in my living room,
0:21:03not four feet from my 4K TV.
0:21:06And I was watching it on the Vision Pro instead
0:21:08'cause Lauren was gone and I was, why not?
0:21:13So I did.
0:21:14And it was nice 'cause it was a huge screen and it was fun.
0:21:18- There's also an app that I wanted to point people to,
0:21:21which is television from Sandwich.
0:21:24This is just- - Yes.
0:21:27- This is the exact kind of thing that I want to exist
0:21:30on the Vision Pro because it's just like fun and joyful.
0:21:35It is an app that currently you can watch media
0:21:39you've downloaded or media from your iCloud,
0:21:41but they seem to be working on the ability
0:21:43to watch streaming services within this app as well,
0:21:47where you essentially can select a television from history,
0:21:52from the beginnings of televisions to now.
0:21:55One of my favorite ones is a wall of televisions
0:21:57that you can watch media on.
0:21:59And you essentially watch it like a screen.
0:22:02- It's a 3D model of televisions from history.
0:22:07And they exist in space.
0:22:10They're not like, when I opened this app, I thought,
0:22:13oh, okay, this is the kind of Vision Pro app
0:22:16there aren't very many of right now.
0:22:18And that I thought would be the ones
0:22:20that would truly take it.
0:22:21And I understand why they aren't
0:22:23because it is not something you can do
0:22:25by converting an iPad app, right?
0:22:27Or easily, it's much harder.
0:22:30And so it's a 3D object in 3D space
0:22:34that then plays a video right now.
0:22:36- On the screen.
0:22:38- On the screen, mapped onto the screen of the TV or TVs.
0:22:41So like I was able to get an old TV with rabbit ears
0:22:44and place it on my coffee table
0:22:46and play an old Star Trek episode on it.
0:22:48I played an old Star Trek episode.
0:22:50Then I played the Star Wars holiday special.
0:22:53Then I played an old Dr. Who episode
0:22:55because I wanted that vibe of old four by three TV set
0:22:59with rabbit ears.
0:23:00And it was just kind of delightful.
0:23:02But I also liked the idea.
0:23:03I was talking to Dan Sturm who worked on this product,
0:23:06a friend of the show who works at Sandwich.
0:23:09And Dan, what I said to Dan was,
0:23:14this is the kind of app I was hoping for.
0:23:18And he said, it's just so easy to leave it somewhere,
0:23:22like off to the side.
0:23:23And the way it works is like
0:23:24the audio comes out of it spatially.
0:23:25It's literally like you're sending a TV set
0:23:28somewhere in your space.
0:23:29And then the TV sets there and you can play it.
0:23:32And what they've said is like the use case here is
0:23:36you kind of wanna, if you want like some background stuff,
0:23:39which for some people is super distracting
0:23:41and for other people it's comfortable.
0:23:43So this is the idea is like,
0:23:44you want something playing in the background
0:23:46off to the side that you can look at
0:23:47and look back and it's in this little TV.
0:23:49And like, is it novel?
0:23:50Yes, it is a novelty app for sure.
0:23:52But at the same time I look at it and I think,
0:23:54yeah, that's kind of what I want for something like
0:23:57broadcasts or other audio apps,
0:24:00where I kind of wanna put essentially like a radio
0:24:02or an object that is just kind of emitting
0:24:04and put it in the corner, put it on a wall
0:24:07and have it be not,
0:24:09it doesn't need to be like a vision pro OS window
0:24:13that's like an iPad app for that part of it.
0:24:15I just kind of want it to be,
0:24:16especially if you think about the future of vision OS
0:24:18and potentially having objects that
0:24:20permanently live in a space that we all kind of
0:24:24expect that they will do,
0:24:25where if I hang this thing in my house, right in this place,
0:24:28it'll, I can say, keep it here geographically.
0:24:31This is where I want this thing.
0:24:34That it opens up a lot of possibilities.
0:24:35So it's just a fun app.
0:24:39I really loved having,
0:24:40I watched most of a Star Trek episode on it, it was great.
0:24:43- Yeah, I really look forward to when it can,
0:24:45they've put YouTube in there, which they're working on.
0:24:47'Cause you could, you know,
0:24:48I could have imagined having one of those
0:24:50like lo-fi beat to chill two things
0:24:52and just putting it in the corner,
0:24:54looking over and seeing the image,
0:24:55but there's music in the space.
0:24:57This is the kind of stuff that also I hoped would exist.
0:25:01Just these fun little toys, but they're useful, right?
0:25:04But they're joyful in a way.
0:25:06And I think there will be more.
0:25:08I think that it requires two things for a lot of developers,
0:25:12which is like time and effort,
0:25:13well, three things, time, effort,
0:25:15and a genuine love for the platform,
0:25:18because the audience is small right now.
0:25:20And this requires a lot of work, right?
0:25:23- Also makes me wonder if Vision OS should have something,
0:25:26and I know they've got a lot on their plate for Vision OS,
0:25:29but if they should have something
0:25:30that's sort of like what picture in picture is
0:25:32on iOS and iPad OS and Mac OS,
0:25:34which is the ability for apps to say,
0:25:38you know, knock out, place this video out,
0:25:41and then the ability for other apps to say,
0:25:43I'm a player for that, right?
0:25:46'Cause imagine if you could do that,
0:25:48then Sandwich, you know,
0:25:49Sandwich's television could be a player
0:25:53for the picture in picture,
0:25:54and then there wouldn't need to be
0:25:56compatibility things built into the app.
0:25:59You could build a player that is like television,
0:26:03and then all the video apps would just,
0:26:05you know, you could just send it out to that other app.
0:26:09I wonder if you could do that,
0:26:10because it seems very similar
0:26:12to the picture in picture API.
0:26:13I would love it, something like that.
0:26:15But failing that, yeah,
0:26:17I hope Sandwich builds in some stuff for this.
0:26:19I'd love, again, it's like,
0:26:22whether it's them working with various services,
0:26:25or whether it's third-party apps, maybe,
0:26:27working with Sandwich, which would also be cool.
0:26:30Like if you're the developer of Plex,
0:26:32and you want to come to the Vision Pro,
0:26:34do you talk to Sandwich and say,
0:26:36can we license television for our Plex player,
0:26:39or work with you, or something, right?
0:26:42Yeah, I love the name, by the way.
0:26:44It's so silly, right?
0:26:45Like it's, 'cause a lot of the,
0:26:48'cause they're so good, their marketing is just,
0:26:50obviously they're so good, they're just so good.
0:26:52And you know, the idea of like, we invented television.
0:26:55Like, 'cause the, you know, I like it,
0:26:57and they're very, like, I love it so much.
0:26:59Imagine object in your space that's playing video on it.
0:27:04We call it television.
0:27:05I think if I remember rightly in the video,
0:27:08there's a television in the room
0:27:10that they're doing the promo stuff in,
0:27:13and they're just moving it around,
0:27:14but it's like an actual TV, it's just, it's fantastic.
0:27:16We call it television. It's television, so good.
0:27:18It's just, yes, it's delightful, but also, again,
0:27:21it is a spatial piece of software.
0:27:27Now, our friend James, friend of the show, James Thompson,
0:27:30he's got a first, like, experimental beta of Dice by Peacock
0:27:34that does this too, right?
0:27:35Where the dice tray is in your space.
0:27:37And like, again, it's one of those apps that I go,
0:27:39ah, yes, here we go, right?
0:27:41It's software, but it's existing in a space.
0:27:43This is, not every piece of software
0:27:46needs to be like that, right?
0:27:47Like, I don't need Slack to appear in a,
0:27:51like, in a frame like you could hang it on a wall, right?
0:27:56I don't need that. I don't need that.
0:27:58But for some stuff, I think it's a really fun use
0:28:02of what this product is.
0:28:04- Yes, I agree.
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0:30:19Jason, what is that sound?
0:30:23Can you hear it in the background?
0:30:24- It's the neighing of horses that have not been fed.
0:30:26- It sounds like horses because saddle up partner.
0:30:29It's time to return to the Rumor Roundup
0:30:32or how I have missed you.
0:30:35I spent so much time today just going through
0:30:39my Apple note that I save of links
0:30:42to just try and pick like, what are we going to talk about?
0:30:45'Cause there's basically a month's worth of rumors,
0:30:48but I've decided to pick out three different areas
0:30:51that we're going to talk about a little bit today
0:30:53in Rumor Roundup.
0:30:54First, Mark Gurman is reporting that iOS 18
0:30:58could be quote, the biggest update in the company's history
0:31:02as they ready their release of AI features.
0:31:06Previous reporting has indicated that some of these features
0:31:09could include a revamped Siri powered by Apple's own LLM,
0:31:13as well as AI infusion into the system apps,
0:31:17stuff like messages and music and the iWork Suite
0:31:20to try and make them better,
0:31:21as well as advancements to Xcode to make development easier.
0:31:24So you're looking at kind of like those co-pilot
0:31:26kind of features to help with code completion,
0:31:29as well as app testing as well by using AI.
0:31:32Apple is also working on making Spotlight better as well,
0:31:36as Siri, we have a quote here.
0:31:38"Early designs of the Spotlight overhaul
0:31:41include using LLMs to answer more complex questions
0:31:44and the ability to tap deeper into apps
0:31:47to launch specific functions.
0:31:49The current version of Spotlight is mostly limited
0:31:51to launching apps, making basic web searches
0:31:53and pulling up information."
0:31:55So I want to get into iOS 18 AI in a bit more detail.
0:32:00But the first thing I wanted to say is,
0:32:02is Spotlight a better brand than Siri?
0:32:04- I mean, maybe, it depends on how badly we think.
0:32:10'Cause Siri, so here's the thing,
0:32:12I know that especially all of us
0:32:14think about all the issues with Siri,
0:32:16but wow, more people know Siri.
0:32:18- They know the name though, right?
0:32:19And that might be the reason. - Siri, they know the name.
0:32:22And I think the argument there is that I know people are like,
0:32:24"Oh, but it's negative, it doesn't work."
0:32:25It's like, "Yeah, I think you can turn that around."
0:32:27I think that it's,
0:32:28I think that the negativity of the Siri brand
0:32:30is kind of overemphasized and overstated
0:32:33in our little community.
0:32:35And that the most important asset is that it's known
0:32:40in a way that Spotlight is just, is not known.
0:32:42Now, I mean, I could make the argument
0:32:47that throwing the Siri name away
0:32:49and having it be all about Spotlight would be better,
0:32:52but I don't know, I don't know.
0:32:54I feel like, I mean, Spotlight brand could get elevated,
0:32:56but Siri is the brand people know.
0:32:58- So I agree with you,
0:33:00and I'm not really advocating for just thinking about it.
0:33:02'Cause like Zach has said,
0:33:04I don't think anybody knows Spotlight as a name,
0:33:06and that's kind of my point.
0:33:08So the Siri name is well-known, people are aware of it.
0:33:13Apple has done a good job of publicizing it.
0:33:16It's been around for an incredibly long time,
0:33:18I think like a decade now, right?
0:33:19Started with like the iPhone 4S or something.
0:33:22But it hasn't got like a super positive association to it.
0:33:26Like people are just kind of aware of it.
0:33:27Like, but I think by and large,
0:33:30people are ambivalent to it.
0:33:32Spotlight is also a cool brand name,
0:33:35and it's another thing that Apple has.
0:33:37And like, I think it's kind of cool.
0:33:40The reason I bring this up is just because like Apple's,
0:33:43the majority of competitors Apple has,
0:33:46has actually changed their names
0:33:47with their existing thing, right?
0:33:49So like Bing is now just co-pilot,
0:33:53which is just, I think, a great name for the AI stuff.
0:33:58And Google hilariously introduced the name
0:34:02and then rebranded it, right?
0:34:03So Bard became Gemini.
0:34:05And I just wonder if like, with a big change like this,
0:34:09is it worth kind of cutting your losses a little bit
0:34:13because you're about to introduce something
0:34:16that in theory is so dramatically better
0:34:18than what it replaces that maybe it's best
0:34:21to just cut any negativity away and start over?
0:34:25- I'll just say no.
0:34:26I don't think so.
0:34:27I think you're better off saying it's the all new Siri.
0:34:31And it's so awesome.
0:34:33And we revolutionized voice assistants 10 years ago
0:34:36when we introduced Siri,
0:34:38and now we're revolutionizing it again.
0:34:39And I know everybody else will be like, blah, blah, blah.
0:34:41It's like, okay, but it's Apple marketing.
0:34:42They say stuff like that.
0:34:43But that idea of, well, this is the new Siri
0:34:47and it's awesome.
0:34:47And then, so who are your competitors at that point?
0:34:50Gemini, which nobody's heard of.
0:34:52ChatGPT people have heard of.
0:34:53Bard is gone.
0:34:55Co-pilot is a good name, but again,
0:34:57it's kind of a new concept.
0:34:59If Apple is integrating with their operating systems
0:35:02on their phones, especially like Siri, it's already there.
0:35:05Like the new Siri with AI, Siri AI,
0:35:08you could even call it if you wanted to.
0:35:10But like, I think you keep the name
0:35:11because even if there's some negative connotations with it,
0:35:14and I think there are some,
0:35:15but I don't think they've destroyed the brand or anything.
0:35:19I think it's ready to be revived by new features.
0:35:21And people get what it means, right?
0:35:23Which is an assistant who helped me do things
0:35:25when I talked to it.
0:35:26- I do agree with you, by the way.
0:35:28I was just, it was in reading the thing about Spotlight.
0:35:31- Oh, I know.
0:35:32- It was just like, it was like,
0:35:33oh, they do actually continue to have both of these names
0:35:36and maybe it doesn't make sense to.
0:35:39- I think my argumentative response,
0:35:41I was really arguing with some of our listeners, I think.
0:35:45So it's the straw man kind of thing,
0:35:46but just bear with me here.
0:35:48I think those of us who are so focused on Apple stuff,
0:35:50know how bad Siri has been
0:35:52and know how bad it's been for so long.
0:35:54And it's a constant irritation to us.
0:35:56Whereas I think the general public uses it.
0:36:00And if they give a bad result, maybe they stop using it.
0:36:04But that's about it, right?
0:36:05Like, I don't think that there was that same like,
0:36:07I hate it so much, for years I've hated Siri.
0:36:10Like, I don't think that is a thing.
0:36:12I think it's, and in marketing,
0:36:14the most important thing is explaining what you are.
0:36:16To be known.
0:36:17It's that lesson that I was taught many years ago
0:36:20by one of my old bosses, who was a sales guy.
0:36:22But he was like, the first thing is to be known.
0:36:25You must be known
0:36:26before anybody will consider buying your thing.
0:36:28Well, Siri is known, it's a huge asset.
0:36:31You don't get rid of it just because,
0:36:34it hasn't been so great.
0:36:36Because in general, the most important thing is that,
0:36:38when you say Siri,
0:36:39people know what that feature is supposed to do.
0:36:42And you say Siri AI, and they're like,
0:36:43oh, they made Siri better with AI, great.
0:36:45And then you're done, right?
0:36:46Like, all the nerds will be like,
0:36:47but Siri has been so bad for,
0:36:49it's like, it doesn't matter anymore.
0:36:50It's over, right?
0:36:51I think that's it. - And maybe at this point,
0:36:52the public perception of AI is so much
0:36:56that if you know that Siri was made better with AI,
0:36:59you might be more willing to trust it
0:37:00or give it another go.
0:37:02- Right?
0:37:03- Yeah. - Right?
0:37:04- So what do you think about Apple's prospects
0:37:06of AI in iOS 18 and this idea that,
0:37:10it is being referred to internally
0:37:13as maybe their biggest update ever?
0:37:15- Yeah.
0:37:15Well, I mean, I love, here's what I love about it.
0:37:19I love that it's, Apple has been riding so high for so long.
0:37:24And even in the early days where they were,
0:37:28in the early days of the iPhone,
0:37:29they were being pressed by Android, right?
0:37:31Android was pushing a lot of buttons in terms of,
0:37:34oh, but we do this thing.
0:37:36They were intentionally implementing things
0:37:38Apple didn't implement in order to give Android a leg up
0:37:42in certain areas that Apple wouldn't
0:37:44or couldn't implement or just hadn't.
0:37:47Boy, it's been a long time, right?
0:37:49It's been a long time since that was the case.
0:37:50So now, Apple is riding high.
0:37:53They make a lot of money.
0:37:54The iPhone's doing great.
0:37:56And you know, the smartphone velocity has slowed down.
0:38:00And this chatbot AI thing has really,
0:38:03I think, kicked Apple in its complacency.
0:38:07And so I'm excited to see what they do
0:38:10because it does feel like they are like, oh crap,
0:38:14let's get this in more places.
0:38:16And that they made a concerted effort.
0:38:17Now, do I think that will work out?
0:38:19I think the answer is some of it will work great.
0:38:22And it will be things like,
0:38:23things we've been saying all along,
0:38:25like why can't the iPhone do this?
0:38:28And the answer has really been like,
0:38:30Apple has chosen not to do that.
0:38:32And now some of that stuff is gonna get eroded.
0:38:34It's gonna be like, ah, but Tim Cook says AI.
0:38:37So the people who are against it are now outvoted.
0:38:40And they're gonna insert stuff in.
0:38:41And that's why I think Siri will be better
0:38:44because Siri has been so bad for so long,
0:38:46as we just discussed.
0:38:47I think in part because people involved with Siri are like,
0:38:50no, no, no, we've just got, it's complicated.
0:38:52It's that story about it takes months
0:38:53to update like little decision chains and the Siri thing.
0:38:57And it's like, then Tim Cook says AI and they're like,
0:38:59all right, I guess we're throwing this away
0:39:01and we're doing something with AI.
0:39:02I assume that that will happen.
0:39:03And similarly, other OS features that could be simplified
0:39:09by using AI systems that again, might've been like,
0:39:12well, deprioritize or we're waiting for it to be better.
0:39:15And then all of a sudden Tim Cook says, no, now do this.
0:39:19And they're like, okay, I guess we'll do this now.
0:39:21Do I think some of them are gonna ship
0:39:23and we're gonna be like, what?
0:39:25This doesn't make any sense?
0:39:26Yes, I do.
0:39:28And that'll be fun to notice when those things happen.
0:39:30But I'm excited by the possibility
0:39:32because this is one of those areas Apple has been very,
0:39:35if I had to sum it up,
0:39:36I would say Apple has been very conservative
0:39:37with their implementation of machine learning stuff.
0:39:39They use it, but they're really conservative about it.
0:39:42And I think what we're gonna see,
0:39:45this is a little bit like that column
0:39:46I wrote about Apple getting weird.
0:39:48I think Apple has been caught so off guard
0:39:51by the advances in AI,
0:39:53that it has been this kick to their complacency
0:39:56and that they are going to do some stuff
0:39:58that is a little outside their comfort zone with iOS.
0:40:01And I think it's been a long time
0:40:03since Apple has done something outside its comfort zone
0:40:06because they have felt so comfortable with their position.
0:40:10And they're like, no, no, no.
0:40:11And their conservatism about releasing new features
0:40:15tends to override those like,
0:40:18let's take a chance on this wild idea.
0:40:19Sometimes there are weird ideas,
0:40:21but a lot of it is like really basic
0:40:25because they don't wanna go overboard.
0:40:27You see it with their camera stuff where they're like,
0:40:30like the magic eraser thing that Google does.
0:40:32What bugs me about the magic eraser ads for Google
0:40:34is that I've been able to do magic eraser on my iPad
0:40:39for ages now using photo mater
0:40:43is what it's called now, right?
0:40:44It's pixel mater photo, now it's just photo mater.
0:40:46Where you literally color in the thing you wanna remove
0:40:49and it uses machine learning and it erases the thing
0:40:51and replaces it with something that should fit there.
0:40:53Like I've used that for years now,
0:40:56but Apple has refused to put something like that in photos.
0:41:00They just won't do it.
0:41:02They just won't do it.
0:41:03And this is the kind of thing where there's a kick of like,
0:41:06no, you need to do this.
0:41:09And I can't wait to see it.
0:41:11Some of it's gonna be bad.
0:41:13Some of it's gonna be great.
0:41:14That's the thing when you are caught off guard
0:41:18and have to rush to catch up.
0:41:20So I'm really looking forward to it.
0:41:23I think it's gonna be a bizarre release potentially.
0:41:27And I'm here for it, right?
0:41:30I'm here for Apple trying all sorts of weird stuff,
0:41:33especially I'm here for people in different areas
0:41:36within Apple's OS group and apps groups,
0:41:39looking at the AI mandate and coming up with,
0:41:43and they know their software really well
0:41:45and coming up with unexpectedly weird but good things
0:41:49and bad things, sure, bad things,
0:41:50but like also weird but good things.
0:41:52I think that could be great.
0:41:53And just, I like Apple trying weird stuff and being hungry
0:41:57and like, 'cause the Vision Pro is super weird, right?
0:42:00And it's got issues, but like, there's also stuff in it
0:42:02where you're like, wow, that is really smart.
0:42:04That is really clever.
0:42:05And it's been a little while since I've felt that way
0:42:08about like an iOS feature.
0:42:10It's like, oh, that's good, that's nice.
0:42:11They added this thing that we've been clamoring for
0:42:13for five years and they finally added it.
0:42:17But this is gonna be, I think more of an OS release
0:42:20where we look at it and we're like, what?
0:42:23And that's exciting, right?
0:42:24Like, what did they do?
0:42:25What did they did, it's gonna do what now?
0:42:28That's, for me, that's really great.
0:42:30I assume that you feel similarly about it.
0:42:32- I have so many questions about it.
0:42:35Like, and I just don't, I have,
0:42:38I'm not sure how they're gonna do it, right?
0:42:40Like, how much is this stuff gonna be on device?
0:42:44How much is gonna be in the cloud?
0:42:45Like, what ramifications are there from that?
0:42:47Like, I'm intrigued about these things,
0:42:49but I'm intrigued about exactly what features
0:42:52they're going to have, what they're going to enable,
0:42:55like, will Siri have a personality now?
0:42:58Like, will it be one person?
0:42:59Like, all of these little things,
0:43:01like, how far are they gonna go?
0:43:03Like, what are they willing to do?
0:43:04And then all of the drama that will naturally,
0:43:08like, ensue from it.
0:43:10I'm really intrigued and excited about it.
0:43:11- Well, we did the draft of the Aegis, right?
0:43:13Where I predicted that there'll be a scandal
0:43:15about some terrible thing that one of their AI things does
0:43:18that they have to apologize for.
0:43:19- I mean, like, Google's going through it
0:43:20all right now, right?
0:43:21Like, it's going to be really intriguing
0:43:25to see how Apple and its corporate culture battle AI.
0:43:30Like, I'm really intrigued by it.
0:43:35- The on-device, off-device thing,
0:43:36I think, is really interesting,
0:43:37because what I think it means
0:43:42is that they're gonna try to do things on device,
0:43:47but they're gonna have some things
0:43:48that have to be in the cloud.
0:43:49They're gonna make statements about how the cloud stuff
0:43:51is all anonymized and not logged and is personal to you,
0:43:54which I think is good, right?
0:43:56Like, that they're gonna want to say,
0:43:58we're not, you know, it's our model and our data,
0:44:01and we're not gonna do anything with your queries.
0:44:06I do wonder, like, how those,
0:44:07there might be some hybrid models
0:44:09where it's like there's an LLM that runs on the iPhone
0:44:11that then does web queries.
0:44:13It knows to do the queries,
0:44:14but then the queries happen remotely,
0:44:16and then information gets filtered back.
0:44:19I don't know, you're right.
0:44:20How do they have to change either their philosophy
0:44:23or how they describe their philosophy in order to use this?
0:44:26And then, yeah, what are the pitfalls?
0:44:27Because again, I think that one of the reasons
0:44:29they've been so conservative with this stuff
0:44:31is that they want a level of control
0:44:33that is not necessarily possible with this stuff right now.
0:44:36And so there are two choices there,
0:44:38which is one, you make something
0:44:39that's actually not as good as the competitors,
0:44:42because you've been so conservative
0:44:43with your decision-making, or you let it rip,
0:44:47and maybe some bad things happen,
0:44:50and how do you label it a beta?
0:44:53Do you have a footnote that says, you know,
0:44:55it's experimental and it might give you bad results?
0:44:58I don't know what those things look.
0:45:01I'm very interested in the Xcode part of it too.
0:45:04Like, how do you train, if you're Apple,
0:45:06what is your code base of Swift and Swift UI especially
0:45:10that you've trained on?
0:45:12Is it just like stuff on GitHub?
0:45:14Is there a lot of, basically what I'm thinking is there,
0:45:16is there a lot of Swift code out there
0:45:18that you can train this on
0:45:20if you're not gonna train it using Apple's internal code?
0:45:24And a lot of apps that use Swift are not open source
0:45:28and the source isn't available.
0:45:29Like, can they train that to be a good co-pilot feature
0:45:34inside Xcode?
0:45:35I don't know, it's interesting question.
0:45:37- As well as AI features,
0:45:40Mark Gurman is reporting that iOS 18
0:45:42will feature some design refresh.
0:45:44Gurman says the company is working to update
0:45:47the design of iOS,
0:45:48but I don't believe it will be a total overhaul
0:45:51that mirrors Vision OS.
0:45:53Makes sense.
0:45:54I feel like there's always room for refreshing,
0:45:57but I think history has shown
0:46:00don't do the whole thing at once.
0:46:01It can tend to be a problem.
0:46:03- It feels like there's some design language changes
0:46:05that they're gonna make.
0:46:06And we will talk about this in our next segment, I believe,
0:46:10because I think that we've gotten some clues
0:46:12about the direction they're going, but not an overhaul.
0:46:17They're not trying to build.
0:46:19It would be, I would think it would be foolish
0:46:21to launch a brand new 1.0 product
0:46:24and then try to overhaul the lineup to be like it.
0:46:27Like, I don't think that that's the plan here.
0:46:29I do think Vision OS things will seep in.
0:46:31The ones that work will seep into the other products
0:46:33'cause that's how it works at Apple.
0:46:35But that seems premature right now.
0:46:37- Yeah, I mean like there could have been things
0:46:40that were designed visually for Vision OS
0:46:43because they were gonna be everywhere, right?
0:46:45Like rather than it being,
0:46:46oh, we made it for Vision OS and it looks real good.
0:46:49So now like it's what we do, you know what I mean?
0:46:53But as you say, it would be strange
0:46:57if that was just the way that they went immediately.
0:46:59It was like, oh yeah, this is what we're gonna do
0:47:01with our stuff.
0:47:02It's all gonna look like this.
0:47:03- I could see stage manager, especially on the iPad,
0:47:06looking more like Vision OS.
0:47:07That's an area where I feel like I could just sort of like
0:47:09push those things closer together.
0:47:11- That'd be nice.
0:47:12So moving on from iOS 18,
0:47:16Digitimes is reporting that the upcoming OLED iPad Pros
0:47:20may not see the huge price jumps
0:47:22that were rumored after all.
0:47:24So last year, there were a lot of headlines generated
0:47:27when the ELAC had reported
0:47:29that pricing for the OLED iPad Pro models
0:47:31could start at $1,500 for the 11 inch
0:47:35and $1,800 for the 12.9 inch
0:47:38due to these new OLED panels.
0:47:39And I remember we were talking about the time
0:47:41like that seemed too much, but if it is gonna be that,
0:47:45well, what are you giving me for it, right?
0:47:47However, Digitimes is now saying that they predict
0:47:51an increase of $160 as a maximum on each current model.
0:47:57This would see starting prices of $950
0:48:01and $1,200 respectively.
0:48:03- I mean, it's still a lot of money for an iPad,
0:48:05but it's not as much money as we feared.
0:48:07- Nope.
0:48:08- Right, because our statement about it was very much like,
0:48:13how do you convince people that $1,500
0:48:16for an 11 inch iPad makes sense, right?
0:48:18And if it's 950 to start, again, it's not cheap, right?
0:48:23You're in MacBook Air territory there,
0:48:27but it's an OLED screen, yeah, interesting, interesting here.
0:48:32Keep in mind also there's probably gonna be
0:48:34a new Magic Keyboard and that's probably gonna cost
0:48:37you know, $350, something like that.
0:48:38- Yeah, you could get to $1,500 and $1,800.
0:48:41- Easily, easily.
0:48:42- But it's not what the iPad's gonna start at itself.
0:48:45These iPad Pros are also, so 9to5Mac reported this,
0:48:50they are set to get a little bit larger, but also thinner
0:48:53because of the OLED panels inside,
0:48:55with the key part being, I think, that the new iPad Pros
0:48:58are expected to be just five millimeters thick,
0:49:01which is wild and it's still expected
0:49:04that we will see them released by the end of March.
0:49:07- They're currently six and six and a half, essentially.
0:49:11And they're gonna go down to five, which is pretty wild.
0:49:16Whereas the Air will be six, so Air doesn't mean
0:49:22what you think it means, but it is, yeah.
0:49:24I mean, I love my iPad.
0:49:26I have to admit that I've been thinking like,
0:49:29am I overly committed to the large iPad lifestyle?
0:49:33And I do love that big screen, but it is bigger.
0:49:37But then I see a story like this
0:49:38and I think, hmm, maybe it's okay, right?
0:49:43- 'Cause maybe, I don't know,
0:49:44I wonder what the weight change will be, if at all.
0:49:46- I wonder.
0:49:48- But that thinness is pretty, pretty awesome.
0:49:51Going back to Mark Gurman reporting now
0:49:54and his power on newsletter, Mark has said
0:49:56that Apple started work, early work,
0:49:59on a home part of a screen.
0:50:01- Yeah, this is almost like a wet blanket kind of thing.
0:50:03'Cause we've talked about this before
0:50:05and he said that they were working on it.
0:50:07And this report seems to be very much like,
0:50:09nobody get their hopes up.
0:50:10This is not a 2024 thing, right?
0:50:13This is like, it's out there.
0:50:15This is a thing that they're trying out,
0:50:19but it's not something that's shipping imminently.
0:50:21'Cause I think that maybe some reports
0:50:22made people too excited.
0:50:24Like they were, oh, they're testing it
0:50:26and they're getting ready to ship it.
0:50:27And he's like, no, no, no, no, no.
0:50:28That is not what's happening.
0:50:30It's gonna be a lot further out.
0:50:32So don't get your hopes up.
0:50:33- Yeah, part of this reporting
0:50:34was that 9to5Mac found references
0:50:37to such a device existing in a tvOS 17.4 beta.
0:50:42It was referencing like a screen and a home pod in tvOS,
0:50:47which doesn't make any sense
0:50:49unless they're testing something like this
0:50:51'cause no such product exists.
0:50:53And it is still expected that this device
0:50:55would be some combination of an Apple TV,
0:50:58a home pod and an iPad of a FaceTime camera.
0:51:02- Oh, sounds good.
0:51:03- I think really the key is like good audio, right?
0:51:05So home pod, FaceTime camera so you can call people.
0:51:09The iPad part is just, it has a touch screen,
0:51:12but the operating system looking and feeling like tvOS,
0:51:15like that makes a lot of sense,
0:51:17that whole kind of stack of things to do.
0:51:19- Simplified operating system, there are apps for it.
0:51:22You could do FaceTime and Zoom on it, right?
0:51:24Like they've got all that stuff in there
0:51:25'cause the tvOS stuff with continuity camera,
0:51:27it's like, well, that's interesting,
0:51:28but you gotta have continuity camera.
0:51:30But if there is a product behind it
0:51:32that has an integrated camera and runs tvOS,
0:51:35it makes a lot more sense.
0:51:36And the software is already there for it at that point.
0:51:39So there's a lot to be said for this.
0:51:41- Let me tell you what I want this device to do,
0:51:43but we're very, very far away from that
0:51:45if it ever happening.
0:51:46I want this to be an eye tracking focused device.
0:51:49- Oh, interesting.
0:51:51- If I'm in the kitchen, I'm usually busy.
0:51:55My hands are dirty, I'm cooking, whatever.
0:51:58To use a device like this, yes, I could use my voice,
0:52:01but I would also like to be able to look at it
0:52:02and tap with my fingers.
0:52:04I also felt like I wanna do this with my watch too, right?
0:52:09'Cause the Apple Watch,
0:52:12we always wanted to be a one-handed device.
0:52:15It's how we thought about it before.
0:52:16Oh, it's a one-handed device, right?
0:52:18It's simple, but it's not, it's two hands.
0:52:21It is more two-handed than anything else that you use.
0:52:25But wouldn't it be nice if you could look at your watch
0:52:29and just use the single tap motion
0:52:32that it should potentially be able to detect
0:52:34to do things in the watch?
0:52:36We're far away from technology like that,
0:52:39but I also, I mean, a few years ago,
0:52:42wouldn't have imagined that they could have eye tracking
0:52:45so good on the vision.
0:52:47- Now keep in mind that the eye tracking is right by your eye
0:52:50and this thing is across the kitchen from you,
0:52:52but I think that there are things that they could learn.
0:52:54So my Google Nest Home, whatever it is,
0:52:58has very limited gestural support.
0:53:01It basically means that I don't have to tell it
0:53:03to stop the alarm or tap on the screen.
0:53:05I can actually wave my hand at it
0:53:07and it turns the alarm off.
0:53:08And I think maybe there's something like
0:53:13a combination of hand gestures
0:53:15and maybe even like attention sense.
0:53:21So if you think about the idea that if you're looking at it,
0:53:25can it determine, does it have an ML model of like,
0:53:28oh, now it's looking at me.
0:53:30And then you do a command with a gesture and it does it.
0:53:34That's not eye tracking per se.
0:53:36- What if like you could, I don't know,
0:53:39tvOS is very big, like the point.
0:53:42What if it had some kind of thing,
0:53:45like some kind of radar thing in it, like that Pixel had,
0:53:49where you could just move your hand, right?
0:53:50And it's just selecting what you're looking at.
0:53:54There are things to do.
0:53:55- Yeah, maybe, or maybe it's the motion, right?
0:53:58'Cause tvOS is very much like a left, right, up, down,
0:54:01select for most stuff.
0:54:02So if you can imagine that maybe it only triggers
0:54:05when you're looking at it,
0:54:07and then you've got hand gestures for,
0:54:09which would be very easy, I would think,
0:54:11for left, right, up, down, and enter.
0:54:13So you could basically go like right, right,
0:54:16move your finger, right, right,
0:54:18and then go with your palm of your hand or something,
0:54:20go boop, and it selects a thing.
0:54:24There might be a simple set of those kind of gestures
0:54:26for when you wanna be hands-free
0:54:28and not putting your oily, chickeny,
0:54:31whatever they are, hands on the screen,
0:54:33which is super gross in the kitchen.
0:54:35So I think there's potential there.
0:54:36And they have this tech.
0:54:37- Keep salmonella out of the kitchen, you know?
0:54:40Let's just keep that out of the kitchen.
0:54:41No raw chicken hands.
0:54:43- Well, I mean, salmonella might be in the kitchen,
0:54:45keep it off your screen for sure.
0:54:47- Yeah, but I mean, you're more likely to get it
0:54:49if you're just putting your like gross chicken hands
0:54:51on the screen. - Exactly.
0:54:52You should keep it contained.
0:54:53Keep your contaminants contained.
0:54:56You don't want them on the screen of your device.
0:54:57- It's right there, you know, contaminant, contain, right?
0:55:00It's the clue's in the name.
0:55:02Finally, iPhone schematics and leaked production molds
0:55:07suggesting that the iPhone 16
0:55:09will feature a vertical arrangement
0:55:11of the two camera lenses.
0:55:12Clearly this is for spatial video.
0:55:15- Clearly, very clearly. - Right, because they have been
0:55:17horizontally aligned from each other for years now.
0:55:21And now they would be vertically aligned.
0:55:25Diagonally, sorry, not horizontally,
0:55:26diagonally aligned from each other, right?
0:55:28And in the little square on the iPhone 16 for a long time.
0:55:31- But if you have one right on top of the other,
0:55:33then you have the ability to flip the phone on its side
0:55:36and capture spatial video.
0:55:38- There are also rumors that suggest the iPhone 16
0:55:42will gain both an action button
0:55:44and the rumored capacitive capture button,
0:55:46which is interesting to me,
0:55:48that they would put the action button straight on that phone
0:55:51and then immediately as well,
0:55:52if they're gonna add this capture button this year,
0:55:54that there's a possibility of it coming to both phones
0:55:56at the same time.
0:55:57- I think Apple is much more aggressive
0:56:00taking things off the pro
0:56:01and putting them on the main models
0:56:02than we give them credit for.
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0:58:25so I don't make as much pizza.
0:58:27Like, in the oven, I gotta get it up,
0:58:29and I can only get it up to 500,
0:58:31and it just, the whole house is hot.
0:58:32So the summer, it's just a no-go.
0:58:34Don't have to worry about that.
0:58:35I can get the oven much hotter outside,
0:58:37and it doesn't heat up the house.
0:58:39And then the speed, as you mentioned, you can cook it.
0:58:42Once you get it up to temp, really,
0:58:46not only does that make it easy to cook multiple pizzas,
0:58:48because they're all done within a very short time
0:58:51of one another, you just put it in,
0:58:53and you actually use the peel,
0:58:54like, to turn it around a little bit,
0:58:56and it's got this L-shaped burner
0:58:58that lets it get all crispy and melty and all of that.
0:59:02It, you know, so it can be done in a minute or two,
0:59:05and then you put the next one in,
0:59:06and it's done in a minute or two,
0:59:07and then you sit down, you've got two different pizzas
0:59:09with different toppings.
0:59:09And it's just, it's all very pleasant and convenient.
0:59:13And then I have a little, I bought the little case for it.
0:59:15So now when it's very rainy, I just keep it outside,
0:59:19but I've got it in its little case, yeah.
0:59:22- I'm very excited, because Ooni has sent me
0:59:24one of the electric ones.
0:59:26- Oh, man.
0:59:27- So that's on its way.
0:59:28So next time we talk about this, I'll be able to,
0:59:31I will be able to tell you what it's like
0:59:33to use the Vault 12. - Unbelievable.
0:59:35- I liked the idea of cooking inside and outside.
0:59:38That was, that was very appealing to me.
0:59:41Listeners of this show can get 10% off their purchase
0:59:44of an Ooni Pizza Oven.
0:59:45Just go to Ooni.com and use the code UPGRADE2024 at checkout.
0:59:49Ooni Pizza Ovens are the best way
0:59:51to bring restaurant quality pizza to your own home.
0:59:53So go to OONI.com, that's Ooni.com,
0:59:57and use the code UPGRADE2024 for 10% off.
1:00:00Our thanks to Ooni Pizza Ovens
1:00:02for their support of this show and Relay FM.
1:00:06- Apple has launched a sports scores app
1:00:10and Jason had the chance to talk to Eddy Cue about it.
1:00:13What a great time for everyone.
1:00:15- I did, I talked to Eddy one-on-one.
1:00:17I mean, there was other Apple PR people about it.
1:00:19It was just me and Eddy talking.
1:00:21Yeah, just hanging out with Eddy Cue.
1:00:22First time for me I've ever talked to Eddy Cue, honestly.
1:00:25- Was it a good time?
1:00:26It seemed like a good time. - Yeah.
1:00:28I think Eddy Cue is exactly who you expect him to be,
1:00:30who you see him as.
1:00:31He seems really smart, but also like a real person.
1:00:36He cares about sports, obviously.
1:00:38That was in my story.
1:00:39I basically said, "Look, you know one thing about Eddy,
1:00:41he cares about sports.
1:00:42He's a court side at the Warriors games."
1:00:44When I talked to him,
1:00:45he had just come back from the Super Bowl.
1:00:47Like, literally that morning he had come back
1:00:51from the Super Bowl was the day after the Super Bowl.
1:00:53And so to do this app and have like a sports score app,
1:01:00like clearly it's driven by his personal passion
1:01:05for this subject and frustration.
1:01:07One of the things that he and I talked about,
1:01:09he was like, "Well, where do you get your scores?"
1:01:10And I said, "Honestly, I've given up on score apps.
1:01:13I just use Google."
1:01:14And he says, "Yes."
1:01:17He basically is like, "Yes, this is the problem,
1:01:20is that the apps," and I think he's right.
1:01:24The apps that you make for sports scores
1:01:26are generally, the focus is on something else.
1:01:30They're trying to get you to do something else,
1:01:33subscribe to their thing or use their betting app,
1:01:37or there's so many other things that they,
1:01:39or just load you in with ads.
1:01:41And he was like, "We just wanted to make something
1:01:43that gets you to the scores fast."
1:01:44And that was our whole charter for this thing.
1:01:46It was obviously coming out of his group
1:01:47and probably a very small group of people.
1:01:49And they're like, it's a passion project for them.
1:01:52But I think that there's also behind it,
1:01:54there's a lot of strategy going on.
1:01:55So it's really interesting.
1:01:57Even if you're not interested in sports or sports scores,
1:01:59I think it's interesting in how it's built
1:02:01and how it interlinks with other stuff Apple's doing
1:02:04and how Apple maybe can do something that starts simple,
1:02:08but also has a lot of potential for interlinking
1:02:10with other things Apple's doing.
1:02:12- So as Eddie says, and I quote,
1:02:15"I just want the damn score of the game."
1:02:18- Yep, that's what he said to me.
1:02:19- It's one of the greatest quotes
1:02:21from Apple executive of all time.
1:02:24- And they said, when you talk to Eddie,
1:02:26the top part of it before we get into the demo
1:02:28is on the record.
1:02:29And I'm like, when he said that, I was like,
1:02:30"Well, that's not something they'd put in a press release."
1:02:32And I love it because that's it, right?
1:02:33I just want the damn score.
1:02:35That's what I want.
1:02:36And I mean, he said,
1:02:38he said he was literally standing courtside
1:02:39at the Warriors games where he has tickets
1:02:42and looking at the scoreboard
1:02:44and looking at the app when it was in beta
1:02:47and sending notes back about how long the app was delayed
1:02:51from what the real time was.
1:02:52'Cause part of the goal of this
1:02:54was not only to get you the scores fast,
1:02:56but get them to be not super laggy.
1:02:59He wants the data source to be as current as possible.
1:03:03- Yeah.
1:03:03What's going on with that data source?
1:03:05Because that was a thing, right?
1:03:06That you were mentioning in the article
1:03:08and I've heard other people mention.
1:03:10Apple seems to have some kind of very, very fast data source,
1:03:14like something's going on here.
1:03:15Do you know what's going on there?
1:03:16Like, do you know anything about it?
1:03:18- I don't know what their data sources are.
1:03:20I think they've got different partners.
1:03:21I think that one of the reasons why
1:03:23there are certain sports that are in there
1:03:25and certain sports that aren't,
1:03:26some of that has to do with like what's,
1:03:28like there's everybody's like,
1:03:29oh, I can't add my favorite NFL team.
1:03:31It's like, guys, there's no NFL scores until August.
1:03:34So hold on.
1:03:35But I get it on one level,
1:03:37but on another level I get why they're like,
1:03:39no, we're not gonna do that now.
1:03:41But I think some of the lower leagues in like,
1:03:45it released in the US, Canada, and the UK.
1:03:48And in the UK, one of the things that people pointed out
1:03:50is it's just the premier league.
1:03:52And it probably should have
1:03:54some of the lower leagues in there too.
1:03:56I think that has to do with the data source.
1:03:57That's my suspicion is that they're not happy.
1:04:00And they may even have some standards
1:04:01for like how quickly the data source updates.
1:04:04And if the data source isn't very good,
1:04:06my guess is that they're pushing their data source providers
1:04:08because they want that data,
1:04:10but they're launching with the data
1:04:11that they're comfortable with
1:04:12because they wanna show off
1:04:14that they've got a good data source.
1:04:15The other funny thing about the data sources,
1:04:17this is not a new data source.
1:04:19If you have had favorite teams in Apple News or Apple TV
1:04:22before, you've been getting live activities
1:04:24and can continue to get them for those teams
1:04:28on your lock screen of your iPhone.
1:04:30That's the same data source.
1:04:31Like I got up a couple of days before I went down
1:04:35and talked to Eddie and Arsenal was playing.
1:04:37It was actually the day before, 'cause it was Sunday.
1:04:39They played the morning of Super Bowl Sunday.
1:04:41And I'm walking out to get my tea in the morning
1:04:44and on my iPhone in standby,
1:04:47instead of it being like the clock and the weather,
1:04:49it's the Arsenal score and a play-by-play
1:04:52of the Arsenal game.
1:04:54And I thought to myself, "Oh yeah, right, live activities."
1:04:57And in fact, now that spring training has started,
1:05:00I'm getting those live activities for the Giants as well.
1:05:04And what's funny is that those scores
1:05:05aren't in the Scores app.
1:05:06And I think that, again, this is one of those cases
1:05:08where their live activities data feed
1:05:12has some spring training data in it,
1:05:14but the Sports app isn't yet,
1:05:17I think that they've got stuff they wanna do
1:05:19to properly present baseball
1:05:21and they're waiting for the regular season
1:05:23to properly present it.
1:05:25'Cause they've got a, it's not just the score,
1:05:27it's also like the pages that have like the box score
1:05:31and stats and stuff.
1:05:32And I think that they, I don't think that's ready.
1:05:35They also have a March Madness thing that they're gonna do
1:05:37for the NCAA basketball tournaments
1:05:40that he said that that will be specific to that
1:05:45and they'll push that out for the tournaments.
1:05:47So there was clear intent here
1:05:49that this thing is gonna get updated a lot.
1:05:52And that is not just presentation,
1:05:54but it's also the data sources.
1:05:55So I think that there's more here,
1:05:58but when I say this, I mean,
1:06:00it also talks about the fact that this is kind of a,
1:06:04it's kind of funny, right?
1:06:06Because the data source is already there,
1:06:08it's in the TV app.
1:06:09And then I heard a lot of people say,
1:06:10well, why aren't they doing things like with the Stocks app
1:06:12where you're basically like reading news
1:06:14about your stocks that you're following in the Stocks app.
1:06:17But like you read news about the teams you're following
1:06:20in the News app and that all syncs.
1:06:23And like, so on one level that makes sense.
1:06:26On another level, I wonder if the long-term play,
1:06:29like this app is not called Apple Scores, right?
1:06:32It's called Apple Sports.
1:06:34So I wonder if the long-term plan is to integrate
1:06:37more of that stuff into one app.
1:06:39But right now it's sort of three apps.
1:06:42- It's a brand.
1:06:43This is the brand.
1:06:44It's not, you should say, it's not sports scores.
1:06:46It's Apple Sport, like Apple TV, like Apple weather,
1:06:49like all of these things.
1:06:50- Exactly.
1:06:51- And we'll talk in a minute about like,
1:06:53I wanna talk to you in a minute about like
1:06:54bolder ambitions and stuff.
1:06:56I mean, this is interesting.
1:06:57Like, yeah, my main sport is Formula One.
1:06:59That's not in here.
1:07:00And I think I feel like I understand why.
1:07:02I don't even think this is a data thing.
1:07:04I think that is just a completely different way
1:07:07of showing scores of something.
1:07:09'Cause it isn't really scores, it's not really scoring.
1:07:11- Yeah, I'm sure they will get there, right?
1:07:14Because I'm sure they would like to harness F1 fans
1:07:17and get them in, but it is, yeah.
1:07:19It's a different paradigm that they have to build
1:07:21and I can see why they would leave it out
1:07:23at the first version.
1:07:24It's a little less, when they have soccer scores in there,
1:07:26it's a little less to be like,
1:07:27well, why isn't the championship in there?
1:07:28And why isn't the Champions League in there?
1:07:31- And I assume that is a, you know,
1:07:32you're saying about the data, but I reckon it's like
1:07:34how much money is in the system, right?
1:07:36And like Premier League has more money.
1:07:38They can maybe have better data, better real-time data
1:07:42because the data exists.
1:07:43But if Apple's very, like very fixed on this,
1:07:47like it's got to be immediately fast or whatever,
1:07:52then that's gonna cause them a problem.
1:07:56- Doesn't it sound like for them to have a higher standard
1:07:58and it means that things get omitted from their app
1:08:00and people complain about it, but they're like, no,
1:08:04we have a higher standard.
1:08:05And then there's a question of like,
1:08:06will they get people to raise the bar for the data sources?
1:08:10Will they lower their bar a little bit
1:08:11for some of the other scores?
1:08:13Who knows?
1:08:14But they're going out with the data sources
1:08:16that they think are, first off, are the biggest ones
1:08:19and that probably the best ones.
1:08:21So it is the NBA.
1:08:23And MLS, of course, it launched on MLS opening day.
1:08:26That's why it launched when it did, clearly was that.
1:08:29But they've got MLS, NBA, NHL, Premier League,
1:08:33a bunch of other European soccer,
1:08:35even though it didn't launch in other European countries.
1:08:38I think it was strongly implied to me that Luca Maestri,
1:08:42the CFO at Apple, really wanted Serie A to be in there.
1:08:46- Fair.
1:08:47- So, there's a lot of people who follow European leagues
1:08:50who are not the top level leagues,
1:08:52but again, the lower level leagues aren't there.
1:08:53- Come on in, Phil.
1:08:54I know Phil Schiller is a big Formula One fan, so.
1:08:57- I know, right?
1:08:58- Why doesn't Phil get this treatment?
1:09:01- I think it's harder.
1:09:01I think that's the answer, right?
1:09:03It's like, it's a completely different way
1:09:05to visualize data for races than it is for a soccer match.
1:09:10- There is an app out there called BoxBox
1:09:12that Apple should just buy that team
1:09:13'cause they've done it, like, they've built a live activity
1:09:17for Formula One races, which is like, it's so good.
1:09:20Like, it updates live with times and lap numbers
1:09:23and stuff like, it's a different way of showing things.
1:09:26One of the things that I find super interesting
1:09:29and I find it quite complicated and very strange
1:09:31at the same time is that it has betting, betting lines,
1:09:35betting information, right?
1:09:37The odds on games are in this app.
1:09:41- In the app.
1:09:42- I don't know why they've done that.
1:09:43- Well, I can tell you why, which is in the U.S. right now,
1:09:49an enormous amount of attention and money
1:09:54is happening with legal sports gambling.
1:09:56Legal sports gambling is new in most of the U.S.
1:09:59And there's a huge amount of money in there.
1:10:02And I think that what happened is there is a perception
1:10:05that betting is a part of the sports market
1:10:11and the sports audience.
1:10:12And so they didn't want to ignore it.
1:10:14I think five years ago, this wouldn't have happened.
1:10:16- You can't bet in the app.
1:10:17- No, you can't bet in it.
1:10:18No, it just shows you the odds.
1:10:20- So why is that useful to you?
1:10:23- I don't know.
1:10:24I mean, I'm not a bettor, so I can't tell you.
1:10:26I think maybe there's like, who's favored.
1:10:28- Yeah, some people like to know that, right?
1:10:30But there's, it's weird to me because it's Apple, right?
1:10:35- Yep.
1:10:36Then again, I'll just point out again,
1:10:38when they launched the major league baseball stuff,
1:10:41their pregame show was sponsored by a betting company.
1:10:46So like Apple has been involved with sports betting.
1:10:49And I know people feel differently about it.
1:10:51There is, as far as I can tell from the reaction
1:10:54that I saw on Mastodon, I think in mainland Europe,
1:10:58there is a very strong anti-betting opinion.
1:11:03But I will just say that in the U.S. and the UK actually,
1:11:07where these things have launched,
1:11:08and I don't know about how candid it feels,
1:11:10there it is a part of the culture
1:11:14and it's not a part that I am a part of,
1:11:16but it is very normal.
1:11:18I'm really just surprised that it either doesn't ask
1:11:20or that it doesn't put the setting in the app itself.
1:11:22You have to go to settings and then drill down
1:11:25all the way into the sports app and then turn it off.
1:11:27But you can turn it off.
1:11:29And I didn't even have to ask.
1:11:30It was on my list of questions to ask about.
1:11:32And before I could in the demo, they're like,
1:11:34you can turn it off.
1:11:35It's there if you want it and you can turn it off.
1:11:37- It's weird to me that they've done it.
1:11:38It's weird.
1:11:39You say they've partnered with DraftKings for this?
1:11:42- Apparently it is the data source.
1:11:44It says that it's the data source, yeah.
1:11:46- But it's also strange to me
1:11:48that you can't do anything with it.
1:11:50Yeah, okay, it says it in settings.
1:11:52Sports settings, betting odds provided by DraftKings.
1:11:55So it says that in the settings app.
1:11:57It doesn't say it in the thing.
1:11:58And it can't do anything with that.
1:12:00It's just that's where they have the data.
1:12:02So I guess for DraftKings, this is just a way to make money.
1:12:05But so let's talk about some of the future of this.
1:12:07Like, and I will start with that question is,
1:12:09can you imagine a world where Apple's into sports betting?
1:12:13- Not really.
1:12:15But I think that it's possible
1:12:20that there might be a partnership or links out.
1:12:25I have a hard time imagining
1:12:27that they would do it more than that.
1:12:29I think that they'll keep it at arm's length.
1:12:32It's possible that they will allow...
1:12:35'Cause then they would be linking to third party apps.
1:12:37I don't think it'll be in the app at all.
1:12:39So I think this is probably the most it'll be.
1:12:40In fact, I wouldn't be surprised
1:12:41if they scale it back a little bit
1:12:43based on reaction from people.
1:12:45Like, yeah, I don't know.
1:12:49We'll see, we'll see.
1:12:50Like I said, I don't really understand the psychology
1:12:54of people who are focused on betting for sports.
1:12:57But I know that it's a huge part of the audience
1:13:00and they wanna capture that audience.
1:13:02I'm not sure that audience needs to see the odds in the app.
1:13:05Because they're probably seeing the odds
1:13:07in their betting app anyway.
1:13:09So I don't know if I entirely understand this part of it.
1:13:13I doubt it will be a direction for them.
1:13:15- Who knows, maybe like if you're that person,
1:13:18like if you're using the sports app because you like it
1:13:20and then you notice the odds change maybe during the game
1:13:23that maybe you'll wanna...
1:13:24But I don't even know if that's the thing that happens.
1:13:26It's weird.
1:13:27I think it's the weirdest part of this.
1:13:29And to me, it's interesting
1:13:31because it's like this is a nice app.
1:13:33Like, and then a lot of the conversation has been focused
1:13:35around Apple and sports betting,
1:13:37which is just like, you know, it's something.
1:13:39- By the way, one of the things
1:13:40that our dear video producer Chip pointed out
1:13:43to us just now, which I alluded to,
1:13:45but I didn't mention in detail.
1:13:48Sports betting is only legal in certain states in the US.
1:13:51- Right.
1:13:52- So if they were to want to interlink in the US,
1:13:56they would have to do like geography
1:13:58down to the state level and stuff.
1:14:00And I think that honestly, direct betting links in the app
1:14:04alone was aligned too far,
1:14:06but certainly it adds enormous complexity
1:14:08if you go beyond that.
1:14:09But I think that, I don't think that they wanna do it.
1:14:11- No.
1:14:12But you mentioned linking out.
1:14:15One of the things that this app does
1:14:17is if there is a service, a streaming service that has-
1:14:22- Connected to Apple TV.
1:14:25- It's connected to Apple TV
1:14:27that is showing the game that you're looking at live,
1:14:30you can tap a button to take you to the app.
1:14:35- To take you to the TV app.
1:14:37- To TV app, to watch it.
1:14:38- Take you to the TV app from which you can go
1:14:42to the provider or start a live activity
1:14:47from the TV app for that event.
1:14:52So basically the link in the sports app
1:14:53is open an Apple TV app, and then in the TV app,
1:14:58you can watch it if you have an interlinked thing
1:15:00where you can follow the live activity
1:15:01if they offer a live activity for it.
1:15:03Which is weird, right?
1:15:04Because it's a bunch of extra taps in a different app,
1:15:08but that's how they built it right now
1:15:10because those features already exist, right?
1:15:11They're already in the TV app.
1:15:13So they're just sort of like,
1:15:15I don't know whether this is a philosophy
1:15:16that Apple wants to follow broadly,
1:15:19which is a whole bunch of small focused apps
1:15:22that interconnect, or if it's more just a function
1:15:25of this app being built late.
1:15:27After that, those features are elsewhere.
1:15:29And so for now, they're just interlinking,
1:15:32but that the goal in the longterm
1:15:33would be to integrate it all in the app itself.
1:15:36Six and one half dozen of another right now.
1:15:40I can see the advantage of both.
1:15:42- On upgradey award-winning
1:15:44and my favorite podcast, "The Town,"
1:15:47Matt Bellini of Puck, his prediction that he made
1:15:50at the end of the episode is that this is the beginning
1:15:53of Apple wanting to become the mega content provider.
1:15:57And this is their beginning of that,
1:15:59of everybody come to us and we'll program all of this
1:16:03for you in our applications and people,
1:16:05like in Apple sports, right?
1:16:07They would become the program guide for this.
1:16:11And I was listening to it and I was like,
1:16:13that's a great idea,
1:16:14but I don't believe people are gonna let them.
1:16:16I don't think that, I think if that was the case,
1:16:20then the TV app would be more successful than it is,
1:16:22but maybe for sports, it is more successful
1:16:25than it is for other types of content.
1:16:27- I would actually argue that this is a great leg up
1:16:30for the TV app because people are gonna be more interested
1:16:33in sports who might not even know that the TV app
1:16:36knows what their favorite teams are
1:16:37and can immediately take them to the app
1:16:39that's got that team's game live.
1:16:42And if you're thinking like people are,
1:16:43the future of sports is people watching on their iPhones,
1:16:45let's say, then having a scores app that will immediately
1:16:50or through a second app,
1:16:52which is why I think that ideally you can't,
1:16:54you've got to integrate it into this app directly,
1:16:56but like using that data to say, oh, well, you've got max.
1:17:01So you can see this game on, it's the NBA on TNT.
1:17:04That's how I did it when I was testing this out
1:17:06on the first or second day I was out.
1:17:08It's like there was an NBA game on and I have max,
1:17:11which means for now at least I have the bleacher report add
1:17:14on 'cause they're giving it away for a limited time.
1:17:18And it just put me into the NBA game
1:17:20that I was looking at that was live.
1:17:22That is potentially pretty powerful, right?
1:17:25Because if you're those sources,
1:17:29whether it's something like YouTube TV or Fubo or Hulu Plus,
1:17:34or whether it's Paramount Plus with the CBS stuff
1:17:39or the spooloo thing that might happen,
1:17:41which is the joint venture that might be coming this fall.
1:17:44If Apple can be the premier sort of like,
1:17:50we know what sports you care about
1:17:51and we can get you to the video or the score or whatever
1:17:55as quickly as possible, there's value in that.
1:17:58And it makes more sense for that to come out
1:18:00of the sports app than it does to come out
1:18:01of the sports area of the TV app,
1:18:05because it's not even a tab, right?
1:18:06It's a scroll down on the iPhone.
1:18:09On the Apple TV, it is a tab,
1:18:11but on the iPhone, it's a sort of scroll down
1:18:13until you get to the sports and then tap sports.
1:18:15And then it takes you to the sports page,
1:18:17which is not quite as exciting.
1:18:19- No.
1:18:20Do you think that this is also just a continuing signal
1:18:24that they would like to have more content of their own?
1:18:28Like more than just MLS, like Apple sports,
1:18:31it's like they want more leagues, they want more?
1:18:33- I think they do, but I think they also want
1:18:35to be an aggregator of other people's content, right?
1:18:39I think that they do want to have some sports content
1:18:43of their own and they find value in that.
1:18:45But when you think about how many iPhones are out there
1:18:50and also potentially doing this on Apple TV,
1:18:52although there's some questions about the success of that,
1:18:54but how many iPhones are out there?
1:18:56And maybe we throw in iPads, but especially the iPhone.
1:19:00Having all of your sports, like knowing your favorite teams
1:19:05and having Apple be the mediator to say,
1:19:08oh, this favorite team is now on,
1:19:09especially with the sports world fractured like it is,
1:19:12where like, oh, where is my favorite team's game?
1:19:14It's on ESPN tonight, but then Friday night it's on Apple.
1:19:18And in the meantime, it's on local cable
1:19:20that I get through YouTube TV or whatever, right?
1:19:22Like it gets really fractured.
1:19:25So if you're Apple and you can say,
1:19:27hey, we know where it is, just tap on,
1:19:30just come to the scores app, we know your favorite team
1:19:33and we know that they're live right now and you tap
1:19:35and we'll play that game no matter what app it's in,
1:19:38'cause they're at the higher level kind of above the apps.
1:19:42I think there might be something there.
1:19:44- We read a quote from John Gruber,
1:19:46the design language of Apple sports is new.
1:19:49I wouldn't say sports looks much like journal,
1:19:51but they're similar in so far as they're both using a new,
1:19:54very simple, very focused UI design language.
1:19:58Sports is closest aesthetically perhaps to Apple weather.
1:20:02It does have a very different look to it.
1:20:04- It does, it does.
1:20:06- An app that Apple makes as did journal,
1:20:08like both of these applications,
1:20:11they feel like they are much more designed
1:20:14for the purpose of the application
1:20:15than trying to follow any specific set of rules.
1:20:19- I agree, I do wonder if there are gonna be things
1:20:23in this app that we look at in the next version of iOS
1:20:26and go, oh yeah, this looks kind of like the sports app now.
1:20:31- Or maybe what it says is that Apple is willing
1:20:36to let all of their apps look the way they do
1:20:39that best fits them and that they don't need
1:20:41to be as unified as they were before.
1:20:43Certainly their goal is to have it
1:20:45be a rich graphic treatment, right?
1:20:48Which is something that it's got in common
1:20:50with like the weather app.
1:20:51I think they want them to feel really nice
1:20:54and have lots of graphics and a lot of color.
1:20:56Like one of the things that they kept emphasizing
1:20:58to me was the fact that they're picking up
1:21:00the colors of the teams and using them as highlights.
1:21:03So like even out on the top level,
1:21:05if you're watching the Celtics, they'll be green.
1:21:10And if you're watching the Warriors,
1:21:12they're gonna be blue or blue and yellow.
1:21:14Like that they're going to pick up,
1:21:17since color is one of the big identifiers in a lot of teams,
1:21:21they're gonna pick up those colors and use them.
1:21:24Yeah, it's just interesting to see,
1:21:28is this a design playground for them where they're like,
1:21:31don't worry about it, just make a beautiful sports app
1:21:33or are they thinking sort of like,
1:21:35this is where all of Apple's apps are going?
1:21:38I don't know.
1:21:39- It's a nice moving gradients,
1:21:42like little flags and stuff in the application
1:21:44when you open it up, it looks very materially.
1:21:47There's movement, there's life in it,
1:21:49but it's also simplicity to it.
1:21:50Yeah, it's interesting.
1:21:53I'll be keen to see if and how this kind of thing
1:21:56proliferates, but what I do like, and I do like the idea
1:21:59of just making these applications look the best they can
1:22:03for the thing they are, rather than like,
1:22:06follow these very specific set of guidelines.
1:22:10- For tab, everything's gonna have tabs on the bottom,
1:22:12they gotta look the same.
1:22:14This doesn't have tabs on the bottom.
1:22:15- But it is a shame that this is another app
1:22:17that's iPhone only, same as Journal.
1:22:20- It is, it is iPhone only.
1:22:21I think that is interesting too, right?
1:22:23In terms of Apple's priorities,
1:22:25that, although for this app, I think my argument would be,
1:22:30it's meant for you to check on sports scores
1:22:33while you're on the go, and the iPhone is the primary place
1:22:36where you do that, but I also--
1:22:37- But your iPad is nice for if you're at home
1:22:39and it's game day and there's like 12 games on
1:22:42and you wanna keep track of them all, you know?
1:22:44You could have loads of them all at once, right?
1:22:47So you could watch the play-by-play
1:22:48of multiple things on your iPad.
1:22:49Quad box spot on steroids, but like data quad box.
1:22:54- No, steroids aren't allowed in sports, sorry.
1:22:57They're illegal.
1:22:57- On the sidelines maybe, you know?
1:23:00Who can stop you? - No.
1:23:01- One last thing on sports.
1:23:03This comes from a press release about MLS,
1:23:06the season opener for MLS.
1:23:08"Coming soon, all Apple Vision Pro users
1:23:11"can experience the best of the 2023 MLS Cup playoffs
1:23:15"with the first ever sports film captured
1:23:17"in an Apple immersive video.
1:23:19"Viewers will feel every heart pounding moment in 8K 3D
1:23:23"of a 180 degree field of view and spatial audio
1:23:26"that transports them into each match."
1:23:30- Right, so this is something that honestly,
1:23:34it is very clear that this is harder
1:23:37than they thought it would be
1:23:39because the new MLS season has started
1:23:43and this isn't out yet.
1:23:45And this is the kind of thing you release
1:23:47to build the hype for the new MLS season
1:23:49'cause it's the highlights from the playoffs of last season.
1:23:54And it's not out yet.
1:23:55Instead, it's like a--
1:23:56- Oh yeah, I didn't realize the 23 thing.
1:23:58Yeah, this is ages ago.
1:24:00- Yeah, this is last year's, last fall's playoffs.
1:24:05- October to December, 2023.
1:24:07- They have a documentary about it,
1:24:10which I'm really looking forward to seeing,
1:24:12but the best time to release this
1:24:15was shortly after the Vision Pro releases,
1:24:17you release this and it gets people hyped
1:24:20about soccer and Vision Pro and the MLS package
1:24:24that's on Apple TV Plus.
1:24:26And instead, it's a footnote in their press release saying,
1:24:30"Oh, coming later, while this season is going on,
1:24:34"you can relive the end of last season."
1:24:36- At least it seems like this is gonna be a free thing.
1:24:39This isn't gonna be for MLS subscribers
1:24:42'cause they say all--
1:24:42- All Apple Vision Pro users, right?
1:24:45Yeah, well, I mean, it's such a small user base now
1:24:47and they wanna show off as much immersive content
1:24:49as they can.
1:24:50John Gruber likened this to the NFL Films stuff
1:24:55where you get like superior,
1:24:56NFL Films started in the '70s making,
1:25:00recording on film, football games.
1:25:03They would bring their own cameras.
1:25:05And then, so it was all of a much higher quality
1:25:08than the primitive sort of TV shoots of the day.
1:25:12And they had slow-mo that was beautiful,
1:25:15like cranked up slow motion on film.
1:25:18And so those were not ready later that day, right?
1:25:22But whether it was Monday Night Football,
1:25:25halftime highlights,
1:25:26or it was like there was a show during the week,
1:25:28there was all highlights
1:25:30that was based on the NFL Films highlights.
1:25:32And then in the long run,
1:25:33it would be their documentaries
1:25:34about the history of football.
1:25:35And they had this huge film archive.
1:25:37It makes the history of the NFL seem so much more majestic
1:25:42'cause they aren't just using stuff from a TV broadcast.
1:25:47This feels a little like that,
1:25:49where if they can get this right,
1:25:51it's probably not gonna be a live broadcast, right?
1:25:54To start, it's probably way too complicated to do that.
1:25:57But the idea of immersive highlights is a great one,
1:26:01but the turnaround, like the turnaround,
1:26:03'cause the MLS cup playoff stuff,
1:26:06it's the end of February now and they still don't have it.
1:26:09So they're obviously struggling
1:26:11with how the production process
1:26:13of doing an immersive documentary about MLS.
1:26:17They haven't been able to do it.
1:26:19So, 'cause I'm trying to look,
1:26:21the December 9th was the final, right?
1:26:24So they've had all of their footage,
1:26:26presumably since December 9th.
1:26:28It's been more than two months and it's not here.
1:26:31My guess is that they wanted it here last week
1:26:33and they couldn't do it.
1:26:34So we'll watch that 'cause like I'm fascinated
1:26:36about how immersive content rolls out.
1:26:39And yeah, it's gonna look great.
1:26:40Even though I don't really care about MLS,
1:26:42I'm very excited about seeing more
1:26:46than those two short clips in the demo reel
1:26:49of immersive sport, because that is exciting.
1:26:52- If you enjoy Upgrade and would like more Upgrade,
1:26:57there's a very easy way to get that.
1:27:00Just go to getupgradeplus.com and subscribe to Upgrade Plus.
1:27:04If you do, you get longer versions every week.
1:27:06We have bonus content for every single episode.
1:27:08In fact, you can go back through the entire back catalog
1:27:11if you subscribe and you can listen
1:27:13to every single segment we've done
1:27:15over the last four years nearly,
1:27:18where we have extra content at the end of the show.
1:27:21And we've done some good ones recently.
1:27:23I think it was last week or the week before,
1:27:24we ranked the environments in Vision Pro.
1:27:28That was a lot of fun.
1:27:29And reading the descriptions that Jason found online,
1:27:32that was a lot of fun.
1:27:33So you can go back and listen to those.
1:27:35On this week's episode, I wanna understand
1:27:38how and where Jason is storing his Vision Pro
1:27:41from a day-to-day perspective.
1:27:42We're gonna talk about what it's like to manage that.
1:27:44- Oh, no. - Yep.
1:27:45You also get access to tons of benefits,
1:27:47including bonus content.
1:27:49We have members-only shows that are for all Relay FM members.
1:27:52We have Backstage and Spotlight,
1:27:57which are two shows on Backstage.
1:27:58Me and Steven talk about the behind-the-scenes at Relay FM.
1:28:01On Spotlight, Kathy Campbell interviews
1:28:03a Relay FM host each month.
1:28:06They're a lot of fun.
1:28:07You get access to the Relay FM members Discord,
1:28:09where you can hang out with listeners just like you
1:28:12and talk about a variety of things.
1:28:14It's a really great community.
1:28:16You get all of this and so much more
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1:28:20Go to getupgradeplus.com and you'll get ad-free episodes
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1:28:29Thank you so much if you sign up.
1:28:31I have some Ask Upgrade questions
1:28:35to finish out today's episode.
1:28:37We're going to start with two questions
1:28:40about VisionOS window management,
1:28:42which is, I think, going to be very complicated
1:28:43to explain some of this stuff.
1:28:44Hot topic, hot topic.
1:28:46Doug writes in to say, "Every three months
1:28:48when I do my business activity statements
1:28:50here in Australia," I don't know what that means,
1:28:52but maybe to Australians, that's an important thing,
1:28:54"I open up the Numbers app
1:28:56and rotate my studio display vertically.
1:28:59Can I rotate my Mac vertically
1:29:01in the VisionOS environment?"
1:29:04Think so?
1:29:06I don't think you can. I don't know.
1:29:06I don't think you can.
1:29:08Maybe if you change the,
1:29:10go into the settings and change the aspect ratio thing,
1:29:12but like, if you can, it's not easy to do that.
1:29:15But what I would say is you can make the Numbers app
1:29:18all tall and skinny if you like.
1:29:20Like, if that's the thing that you want to do the most
1:29:21and you could have that alongside.
1:29:24Yeah, or blow up the, you know, make it tall and skinny,
1:29:26but also blow up the screen.
1:29:28But I don't know if you can actually rotate it.
1:29:30That's an interesting idea.
1:29:31My guess is not, but I haven't tried that.
1:29:33Yeah, I don't think you can do that,
1:29:34but you could have the, like, the VisionOS Numbers app.
1:29:36You could have up right next to your Mac.
1:29:39The beauty of, or Excel, if you use that,
1:29:43that's a VisionOS app, a native app.
1:29:46Because I think Numbers, is Numbers a native app
1:29:49or is it an iPad app?
1:29:51I think it's an iPad app, but it's there.
1:29:53Keynote is the only native one
1:29:55and pages and numbers are compatible.
1:29:59Or if you use Excel, then you could use that too.
1:30:01I'd say, yeah, VisionOS actually excels at having
1:30:04vertical windows.
1:30:06I love making really tall windows
1:30:09'cause it's not a thing that you do so much
1:30:11on a horizontal screen.
1:30:12So that's kind of fun.
1:30:16But yeah, if you need to use the Mac,
1:30:18I would say make your window tall
1:30:20and we don't have an answer
1:30:23for his actual question about this.
1:30:24That would be a fun thing to do.
1:30:25It would be nice if you had the ability
1:30:27to make a Mac screen vertical 'cause the Mac can do it.
1:30:30So why wouldn't you be able to do it?
1:30:33Sims writes in to say, can you angle windows in VisionOS,
1:30:37say like a drafting table or an airport departure board?
1:30:41You don't have the ability to change the,
1:30:47I don't even know how to describe it, right?
1:30:53You can go like, how do you describe movement in a 3D space?
1:30:57Like you can move them kind of a little bit like
1:31:02left, right, but not up, down.
1:31:04So what I would say is the windows are around you, right?
1:31:09It actually, you have like a bubble.
1:31:14You're sitting in like a ball
1:31:15and the windows are painted on the ball.
1:31:18Yeah, so when you put one off to the left,
1:31:23it doesn't put it off to the left at the same flat angle
1:31:26that the one in front of you.
1:31:26It turns it so that if you put a bunch of them,
1:31:29they're kind of like all angles around you.
1:31:32So the idea of like tilting a window up,
1:31:34so it's like at a perspective
1:31:36is not a thing that generally is done on this.
1:31:39However, I will say there's one interesting thing
1:31:41that VisionOS does, which is if for stuff
1:31:45that's on your sides, if you've got the window moving,
1:31:49if you're holding the window and you tilt your head,
1:31:52it will actually rotate that window a little bit.
1:31:54- Which I've been, I do that with the Mac a lot
1:31:56because I want the Mac to be like dead straight in front
1:31:59of me and sometimes it's like a little left or right,
1:32:01so you just like grab the thing and move your body,
1:32:05which is moving your head,
1:32:06and it will shift it a little bit.
1:32:09- Right, I do it where I've got something off to the side
1:32:11and it's not at the same angle as like the door of my house
1:32:15or whatever, and so I'll tilt so that it's sort of like
1:32:17in the right angle for that.
1:32:19But it's not, because it's a bubble around you,
1:32:23so the drafting table example,
1:32:25I actually think it sort of does that
1:32:26where if I take a Mac display and I bring it down
1:32:29to right where my keyboard is on my laptop,
1:32:34it feels like it's tilted coming out of my laptop.
1:32:37It's not, 'cause it's trying to be straight
1:32:41in front of my vision, so if it's down below,
1:32:43it's gonna be sort of like tilted back
1:32:45so that it's straight in front of your vision,
1:32:48if you can imagine that.
1:32:49And then if you place it right in front of you,
1:32:50it's gonna seem flat, and then if you place it above you,
1:32:53it's gonna seem like it's sort of tilted down toward you
1:32:55'cause in the end, you are in that bubble, in that ball,
1:32:58where all the windows are trying to be flat
1:33:01facing your eyes, if that makes sense.
1:33:04- Yeah, it's like, what the system is trying to do
1:33:09is make it that like, if you're in a stationary position,
1:33:12wherever you turn your head,
1:33:14the window is basically flat to you.
1:33:17So if you look up, you should be able to see it
1:33:20kind of like face on, so it will tilt towards you
1:33:23when you move the app up.
1:33:25It's complicated, but yeah,
1:33:26if you imagine yourself sitting inside of a ball
1:33:28and the windows are rendered on the inside of the ball,
1:33:31that's what does it.
1:33:32We'll find out if that makes sense to you or not.
1:33:37And James asks, "You often say that Apple News
1:33:40doesn't provide you with the content that you want,
1:33:42but I'm curious what you use for day-to-day news reading.
1:33:46I use Apple News, but only because I haven't found
1:33:48a better alternative.
1:33:49It took quite a lot of training to get it right,
1:33:51but less effort than following the right people
1:33:54on social media or RSS."
1:33:56- So James, I don't believe two things.
1:34:03One, I don't believe it took less effort than what I do.
1:34:08And two, I don't have a lot of faith
1:34:11that I would get it right if I used Apple News.
1:34:13Apple News to me seems like a product built for people
1:34:17who use news in a very different way than I do
1:34:19and are interested in things I'm not interested in.
1:34:21And when I use it, I try to tell it,
1:34:24"Don't use these stupid sources and don't do this."
1:34:27And the fact is, I look at that and think,
1:34:30"How long am I gonna have to use a terrible product
1:34:33that doesn't tell me what I wanna see
1:34:36before it gets better?"
1:34:38And I have no faith in it doing that.
1:34:40The launch experience, the stuff it shows me, I hate it.
1:34:43I just hate that stuff.
1:34:44It's the stuff I don't wanna see from news.
1:34:46It's like, "Oh, you're a news consumer.
1:34:48Here's this garbage that I wanna throw at you."
1:34:50And I'm out of there.
1:34:52So I'm not willing to put in the work, I guess,
1:34:54nor do I have faith that putting in the work
1:34:56would make a difference.
1:34:58So what do I do?
1:34:59I subscribe to some newsletters.
1:35:00I subscribe to some news sources.
1:35:02I have their apps.
1:35:04I have some of their feeds in an RSS reader.
1:35:06I'm currently using ReadKit,
1:35:08but I've used NetNewswire in the past.
1:35:09I've used Reader in the past.
1:35:12I've used InoReader in the past.
1:35:13It's all via Feedbin.
1:35:15My newsletters go into Feedbin via their email gateway,
1:35:18so they show up in there too.
1:35:20So I pick some news sources that I want,
1:35:23and I pick some newsletters that I want,
1:35:26and I follow people on social media
1:35:28that give me links that I want,
1:35:30and that's how I do it.
1:35:31So I have spent time cultivating those sources,
1:35:37but the idea that I would spend that time instead
1:35:40hoping to train the capricious algorithms of Apple News
1:35:44to give me what I want when they open up for the first time,
1:35:47it is so honestly kind of repulsive to me
1:35:50the kind of garbage that they've got in there.
1:35:52I'm sorry, I only use Apple News for a couple of things.
1:35:57One is when I need to write about Apple News,
1:36:00so I force myself to use it so that I know how it works,
1:36:03and two, when I want to read a Wall Street Journal story.
1:36:07That's about it.
1:36:08- I also don't think that it's a ton of work
1:36:14to just follow the blogs I'm interested in,
1:36:17and that's what I do.
1:36:18Outside of that, the majority of news that I want in my life
1:36:23is just stuff about the things that I care about.
1:36:25The only world news source that I use,
1:36:29I like The Economist, I like their app.
1:36:32They have this kind of morning roundup,
1:36:36and they write five long sentences
1:36:38about the five world news stories you need to know about,
1:36:41and that's as much as I tend to want
1:36:44when it comes to world news.
1:36:46For newsletters, I subscribe to a daily baseball newsletter
1:36:50that has a lot of links to stories in it
1:36:53plus a lot of fun commentary.
1:36:55I subscribe to a daily newsletter about California news.
1:36:59It's called The California Sun,
1:37:01and it's full of links to news sources in California
1:37:04about news that's relevant to people in California,
1:37:06and I read not only that newsletter,
1:37:08but the links that it sends.
1:37:10So I've got a few others, like Platformer,
1:37:13and there are other things that I subscribe to, like that.
1:37:16The Athletic has a baseball newsletter that I subscribe to,
1:37:18'cause I like baseball, and I read that,
1:37:20and I click through the links there,
1:37:21and then I've got a bunch of stuff in RSS,
1:37:23and then I've got the couple of newspapers
1:37:26and a couple other news sources that I subscribe to,
1:37:28and that's it.
1:37:29There are other newsletters too,
1:37:33but I've just pulled it together like that.
1:37:35Then I go on Apple News,
1:37:39and I see a bunch of news sources that I don't care about
1:37:42or that I know it's just all clickbait garbage,
1:37:44rewriting other people's stories,
1:37:46and that's when I tell it what I'm interested in.
1:37:49- Or just with opinions that I fundamentally disagree with.
1:37:52There's a lot of that in Apple News for me too.
1:37:54- Yeah, well, there's like, "Oh yeah, here's some fun."
1:37:56Well, your choices are you get the general news
1:38:00that's sort of curated,
1:38:01but it's about stuff that I don't care about
1:38:04and curated from a lot of places
1:38:06that I don't wanna see content from,
1:38:09and if I pick like, "Oh, but you can follow topics,"
1:38:13the topics you follow, it's all garbage.
1:38:16The topics I follow at least, they're not curated anymore,
1:38:20and it's all just kind of clickbait garbage
1:38:22where it's like all my entertainment stuff
1:38:24is coming from slash film and screen rant and CBR,
1:38:28and it's all just SEO rewritten links
1:38:32to "The Hollywood Reporter" and variety stories
1:38:35where they take one sentence
1:38:36and weave a whole story of garbage out of it.
1:38:41Garbage is not the word I wanna use,
1:38:43but I'm gonna just stick with garbage.
1:38:45So yeah, I just, I can't even with Apple News.
1:38:49And is it possible that James is right?
1:38:50And that the amount of time
1:38:51I've spent cultivating my news diet,
1:38:53I could have spent trying to train Apple News
1:38:55to give me better stuff?
1:38:57It is possible, but I just don't believe it.
1:38:59I think that it's so fundamentally at odds
1:39:01with what I am trying to get.
1:39:04I honestly, I wish that Apple would start again.
1:39:07I feel like if Apple made Apple News
1:39:10a place that included you could directly curate
1:39:15a little more of what your sources were,
1:39:18and there's some of that with some news sources,
1:39:21but not others, and put your newsletters in there
1:39:23and put RSS in there and make it much more personalized,
1:39:26but they don't seem that interested in it.
1:39:28They've got their curated top level,
1:39:30and then they've got their non-curated stuff
1:39:32that's full of garbage,
1:39:33and that seems to be what it, it just doesn't,
1:39:35I have no faith in the,
1:39:37leaving aside the app itself,
1:39:39which I know they have made some strides
1:39:42and it's a better app than it was,
1:39:43but like the news sources, it's still just,
1:39:45it doesn't speak to me.
1:39:46And maybe I'm not the target audience for it,
1:39:49but I find the content literally repulsive.
1:39:54I open it up and I'm like, this is gross.
1:39:56Please just show me that Wall Street Journal story
1:39:58that I'm searching on via its headline
1:40:00so I can read it and get out of here.
1:40:02And that's just, it's not great,
1:40:03not a great thing to be in.
1:40:05- As a little bit of follow up from James Thompson,
1:40:09who checked, you can't rotate the virtual Mac display
1:40:14as far as he could see in Vision Pro.
1:40:16You can, you have a bunch of resolutions,
1:40:18but you can't make it like a tall display.
1:40:21- Can the 90 degree rotate?
1:40:22- You can't do that.
1:40:23It's all horizontal in the protocol.
1:40:26If you would like to send in feedback,
1:40:27follow up questions for the show,
1:40:29go to upgradefeedback.com
1:40:31and fill in our wonderful form.
1:40:32Thank you to everybody that does.
1:40:34The articles we were referencing earlier
1:40:36that Jason wrote about the sports app
1:40:38are over at sixcolors.com
1:40:39where you can read Jason's work all the time.
1:40:42You can also hear him on shows here on Relay FM.
1:40:45You may actually enjoy it downstream.
1:40:47If you liked our conversation about sports
1:40:49and streaming earlier on, you can go and hear him there.
1:40:52And the incomparable.com as well.
1:40:54You can hear me on Relay FM
1:40:56and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.
1:40:59We are on social media.
1:41:00You can find Jason's @jasonel, J-S-N-E-L-L.
1:41:03I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.
1:41:06We mentioned it earlier,
1:41:07but go and find the video clips of the show
1:41:09on your favorite platform, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube.
1:41:12We are @upgraderelay.
1:41:14Thank you to our members and supporters of Upgrade Plus.
1:41:16Go to getupgradeplus.com to find out more.
1:41:19Thank you to our sponsors this week,
1:41:21Ooni and Squarespace.
1:41:23And we'll be back next time.
1:41:24Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.
1:41:27- Goodbye everybody.
1:41:29(upbeat music)
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1:41:34(upbeat music)