500: Core Face/Peripheral Face


00:00:00   (music)

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 500.

00:00:14   500.

00:00:15   It is February 19th 2024, today's show is brought to you by Vitaly. Delete me and ladder.

00:00:22   My name is Mike Hurley and I am joined by a man who's been on 499

00:00:28   of these 500 episodes, Jason Snell. Hi, Jason.

00:00:32   It might be 498, but most of them, hi.

00:00:34   You missed two? I thought we just won.

00:00:36   A year ago, I think I missed both of those episodes when I went to New Zealand.

00:00:40   You did, I made you take both of them off.

00:00:42   Yes, 498, I've been on less.

00:00:44   I've probably been on like 470 or something like that.

00:00:49   Yeah, I'm sure one of our many official historians will tell us at some point what that is.

00:00:54   But I just want to point out that a little quirk of roman numerals,

00:01:00   they have a numeral for 500, which I think is funny.

00:01:03   Like you don't need that, but they have it.

00:01:05   What is it?

00:01:05   It's D, so it is Upgrade D.

00:01:07   Today, nope, I'm not, you know what?

00:01:10   And we're doing a report card, so Upgrade D, below average.

00:01:14   Upgrade D, that's, I've been hearing a lot of these things recently.

00:01:17   It looks like letterbox D, it's one of those background tasks that you do.

00:01:21   Upgrade D.

00:01:21   It's a demon.

00:01:22   And also, Upgrade D is upgraded, which is also fun.

00:01:28   Upgraded, yeah, it is great.

00:01:31   I love it, upgraded.

00:01:32   Welcome to Upgraded.

00:01:33   Upgraded.

00:01:34   I have a snow talk question for you to start this 500th episode, comes from Ben.

00:01:40   Ben wants to know, do the two of you do anything in particular

00:01:44   to keep your relationship fresh and positive?

00:01:46   I marvel every week your mix of fun banter, professional analysis,

00:01:51   and what seems like a true warm friendship with no apparent tension after all of these years.

00:01:56   Well, so I want to just start this off before you actually answer with like,

00:02:00   one of the things that like broke my heart as a younger man

00:02:04   was finding out that the Mythbusters guys didn't really get on very well.

00:02:08   Like they had a good professional relationship, but that was where it like ended.

00:02:12   Like they were not friends and they would say that they were not friends.

00:02:15   And like, and when I found that out, it like kind of broke my heart a little bit.

00:02:20   And so I'm here to say we're not friends.

00:02:22   No, that's right.

00:02:23   That's how we keep it.

00:02:24   That's how we keep it solid is never speak outside the podcast.

00:02:28   Which is also not true.

00:02:30   We talk all the time.

00:02:31   We do.

00:02:32   Well, this is a snow talk question, so you will get the ability to answer first.

00:02:35   But I have some things to say about this also.

00:02:37   Oh, I mean, I don't even know what to say about this.

00:02:40   We, yeah, we're friends.

00:02:42   And I think it would be different.

00:02:44   I mean, you're very far away.

00:02:45   So I only get to see you in person every so often.

00:02:48   And we, but we have, like so many people do, you know, we have slack conversations and

00:02:54   like there's always a back and forth.

00:02:56   I think we get along.

00:03:00   I don't even know how to say it.

00:03:03   Like, I don't, I'll put it this way, Mike, because as we barrel toward 10 years of doing

00:03:08   this, it's not work to stay connected to Mike.

00:03:14   It's just, I mean, it's just nice.

00:03:16   It's, I'm not, there's no strategies involved to keep it fresh.

00:03:21   It just is good.

00:03:23   That's what I say.

00:03:24   I'm sorry.

00:03:24   It's kind of a non-answer.

00:03:25   It's like, no, that, that, that wore my heart.

00:03:28   That was your gift to me on this 500th episode.

00:03:30   I give that to you.

00:03:31   What I'll say is I couldn't imagine doing this show of literally anybody else.

00:03:34   This is the only person I've wanted to show with is you.

00:03:36   Like, you know, we are a great partnership.

00:03:38   We work very well together.

00:03:42   We compliment each other in the right ways.

00:03:45   Look, to say that we never get annoyed at each other would be wrong.

00:03:48   You know what I mean?

00:03:49   We get frustrated.

00:03:49   You hear us get frustrated at each other on the episodes.

00:03:52   But we're professionals as well as friends.

00:03:55   And I think that that combination can allow you to work together for this period of time.

00:04:01   And we might say some of this again, if we talk about this coming up in September when

00:04:07   it's 10 years of doing this, but I'll just say now that I also always appreciate the

00:04:12   fact that when I was leaving my job of many, many years and wanted to do a podcast.

00:04:18   It was like one of my primary goals was like, well, when I leave my job, one of the things

00:04:22   I'm going to need to do is do a podcast.

00:04:23   And I need a partner for that.

00:04:26   And I wanted it to be you.

00:04:28   And you already had connected and we're starting this network and all those things.

00:04:34   And so once again, I will say also thank you for agreeing to do this podcast because logically,

00:04:40   I think you could have said it's one too many podcasts and you didn't.

00:04:46   So thank you for that.

00:04:47   I wasn't going to turn that opportunity down.

00:04:49   And I feel like it was just a thing.

00:04:51   It was just like a way.

00:04:53   And I think this has become better and better over time of how we split.

00:04:58   This show is like different to all the other shows I do.

00:05:00   The things that you do, like it is different.

00:05:01   It's its own thing.

00:05:03   And I also think different to most of the other stuff that's out there.

00:05:06   Of course, you're going to have to do a little bit of this today.

00:05:08   It is our 500 episodes, so we're going to be a bit navel-gizzy.

00:05:11   But we have some big topics to talk about.

00:05:13   Thank you so much to Ben for sending in that lovely snow talk question.

00:05:16   I've been sitting on that one for a little while,

00:05:18   because I thought it would be good for an episode like this.

00:05:20   Some follow up.

00:05:22   So on last week's episode, you said you were going to stuff your Vision Pro into a backpack

00:05:27   and cover it with some t-shirts.

00:05:28   And I just wanted to know how that went for you.

00:05:30   Don't forget the socks.

00:05:32   The answer is, after that episode, I thought that it was a stupid idea.

00:05:38   But my inherent cheapness kicked in, right?

00:05:41   Which is like I didn't want to buy an expensive bag.

00:05:43   And so what I ended up doing is buying a super cheap bag or a super cheap case.

00:05:50   The one that Casey List bought.

00:05:52   Ah, because Casey bought it.

00:05:54   And it's like a $25 case or whatever.

00:05:57   It's not a $100 or $200 or $300 case.

00:06:00   And he said it's perfectly adequate.

00:06:02   And I mean, it's clearly a meta quest case, but it works.

00:06:07   And all the pieces are velcro.

00:06:08   So you can kind of like move it around and get the dimensions to be a little bit close.

00:06:12   So that's what I traveled with.

00:06:13   I did put it in a dumb case that fits in my backpack and was not stuffing socks around

00:06:20   the eye holes, which is what I realized after we talked that that was probably a stupid idea.

00:06:25   I'm so happy you got something.

00:06:29   You know, I saw Casey's case because me and Casey got to spend some time together in New York.

00:06:34   He came and surprised me, which was wonderful.

00:06:35   He's a good friend.

00:06:36   See, he's a good friend.

00:06:37   He came all that way just to see you.

00:06:38   He's a good friend.

00:06:39   He's a good friend.

00:06:39   And he had that case.

00:06:40   And I was like, what are you doing?

00:06:41   I was just like, just get the case.

00:06:44   But to be honest, review, I'm just happy you had a case.

00:06:47   A case.

00:06:48   That's what I was going for.

00:06:49   Baseline.

00:06:50   Anything.

00:06:50   Just anything.

00:06:51   Just a case.

00:06:52   Yes.

00:06:53   Bill wrote in to say, hey, Jason, there's a company in San Francisco.

00:06:58   I'm sure you know them, Waterfield bags and they make a case of their own SF bags.

00:07:02   So this case, I saw people, I saw this reference as like a cheaper option.

00:07:06   It's still not cheap.

00:07:07   It's like $180.

00:07:08   But what looks cool about this case is it is much smaller physically than Apple's.

00:07:15   So if that's what you're looking for, then.

00:07:19   It looks good.

00:07:19   And I have some of their, I've used some of their stuff over the years and it's very high quality.

00:07:24   It's good stuff.

00:07:24   They sold out immediately.

00:07:26   Yes.

00:07:27   Of course.

00:07:27   When they announced this product.

00:07:29   So it wasn't really an option for me.

00:07:30   I did think about it.

00:07:31   If they had been available, I might have bought one.

00:07:34   But it's not too bad.

00:07:35   Like if you order it now, it ships middle of March.

00:07:38   So that's good.

00:07:39   For this trip, I just thought the Casey case is good in the sense that it exists and was cheap.

00:07:48   Yeah.

00:07:48   And if, and I really felt like, well, first off, I got Casey to say it's fine.

00:07:52   And then I thought, well, I'll take a flyer on it.

00:07:54   Casey says it's fine and if, you know, if it doesn't work out, I can just get something

00:08:01   else because it was relatively cheap.

00:08:03   But what I didn't want to do, and you know, that Apple case, I know people love it.

00:08:06   I looked at it and I'm like, I saw one in person a couple of times and it just doesn't

00:08:11   do it for me.

00:08:11   It doesn't do it for me.

00:08:13   Everybody else, everybody can be different.

00:08:14   So I'm happy to have my little cheap thing that I can put it in.

00:08:17   So it doesn't rattle around and have like, I don't know, chocolate melt on it or something.

00:08:23   Right.

00:08:23   Like it's fine.

00:08:24   It's good.

00:08:24   It's enough for now.

00:08:26   Jonathan wrote in to say, I feel most of the questions in the segment talking about Vision

00:08:32   Pro sizing are answered well enough by Apple in a documentation that they put together,

00:08:36   including the question of when should I use the other cushion and specific fit issues

00:08:41   that are fixed to specific adjustment changes or light seal or light seal cushions and even

00:08:45   what the markings mean and what to look for.

00:08:47   So Apple put together a knowledge base article about fitment of the Vision Pro because we

00:08:52   were talking about that.

00:08:53   And there's some stuff in here that is useful for sure.

00:08:56   But one of the things that I find frustrating about this article is they're referencing

00:09:03   the fact that like, maybe you should, if something doesn't fit right, you should get a different

00:09:07   piece, right?

00:09:07   Like maybe a different light seal or something.

00:09:09   But that's just not a thing you can do.

00:09:11   You can't just do that.

00:09:12   You can only buy the ones that Apple will let you buy.

00:09:16   And like, I'll say again, like I'm here.

00:09:18   Hi, my name is Mike Hurley and I'm here again with like everybody else, with another

00:09:23   like just personal experience thing that happened to me.

00:09:27   So I have two light seals.

00:09:30   I think I got like a 21 and a 25.

00:09:33   Yeah.

00:09:34   The 21 was what I, which is when I bought the thing and when I bought, I bought, I put

00:09:40   my order in and I put my prescription lens order in separately.

00:09:43   And when I did that, it was like, hey, you're going to need a 25 for this.

00:09:48   And the reason is I read about it.

00:09:50   Some people, in some instances, if you have lenses, they recommend a different light seal

00:09:55   for distance.

00:09:56   Today, I thought I would try the original one, the smaller one, I guess, the 21 with

00:10:03   my lenses in.

00:10:03   And I actually find it more comfortable.

00:10:05   Interesting.

00:10:06   Like, and also I have less of the tunnel vision thing.

00:10:10   Yeah, right.

00:10:11   That's the idea is you get a little closer.

00:10:13   I mean, my feedback to Jonathan is, is, I mean, it's great that they have documentation,

00:10:17   but that doesn't help you if you don't have the sizes.

00:10:19   Because what you, what you need to do is try them on.

00:10:21   I can read lots of documentation about like how, you know, how, like, if you're online

00:10:25   and you want to buy, let's say a hat, but it could be anything, pants, a shirt, and

00:10:31   they have a little thing that says size information and you click on it and they're like, oh,

00:10:35   it's this many inches or millimeters or centimeters or whatever you want miles around.

00:10:42   And I think to myself, okay, I don't know my measurement.

00:10:47   I don't know where that measurement is taken.

00:10:49   I don't know how to do it properly.

00:10:51   And what you really want to do is try on a bunch of different hats or t-shirts and find

00:10:55   the one that fits.

00:10:56   And if you're at an Apple store where they theoretically have every size, the people

00:11:00   at the Apple store should be pretty well trained to bring them all out and step you through

00:11:04   it and figure out which one fits and ask you the right questions.

00:11:08   And that's my complaint is that I don't think that they've been well trained in that

00:11:11   at all and that they need to be better at that.

00:11:13   And I think it's the fault of people in Apple retail for focusing on the demo experience

00:11:18   and not focusing on the fit experience.

00:11:20   And I think that's why it's frustrating.

00:11:22   I went to my local Apple store.

00:11:24   They didn't have the 21.

00:11:27   I ended up, and this is the other thing I think I mentioned is you can't just order

00:11:32   the other size.

00:11:32   If you're doing a swap, you have to actually go through a series of questions, which you

00:11:39   can game to get the one that you want.

00:11:41   Anyway, I ended up with a, what is it?

00:11:43   15, 14, the one that's one, believe it or not, one size down from the 21.

00:11:48   And I got that and it was terrible.

00:11:51   It was put all the pressure on my cheekbones, much worse experience than the 25 that I originally

00:11:59   got.

00:11:59   So I actually went back to the 25 and I'm going to send the 15 back because it doesn't

00:12:04   fit.

00:12:04   But this is silly.

00:12:06   It's silly.

00:12:09   When I was in the Apple store, they should have been able to walk me through multiple

00:12:12   ones and instead they just sort of like took one and said, how's this different?

00:12:16   And I went, I don't know.

00:12:17   I can't tell.

00:12:17   And they're like, well, all right, maybe you can get that one.

00:12:20   And that was the end of it.

00:12:21   So it's just, it was really lacking.

00:12:23   I appreciate that there's documentation.

00:12:24   I mentioned Apple store employees also got a bunch of tips about sizing, but it doesn't

00:12:30   feel like they've been trained in like, here's how you do it.

00:12:33   And instead, like I distinctly got the impression that they were kind of making it up.

00:12:37   And I w and again, frustrating that they're supposed to be the experts, but I was driving

00:12:40   it and I didn't feel like that was how that was supposed to go.

00:12:44   And that I would have had to be like, no, no, no, bring me more light seals.

00:12:47   I want to try all the light seals.

00:12:49   I didn't want to be that guy.

00:12:50   Yeah.

00:12:51   I feel like this is one of those things where it will get better over time.

00:12:55   All right.

00:12:56   But like it is just a point of saying that like right now it is like a little bit of

00:13:00   a black box.

00:13:01   You're like Zach pointed out something in the chat that I didn't know.

00:13:05   The, you can order different light seals online, but you need to know what number you've got

00:13:09   to know the number, right?

00:13:10   You got to know the number.

00:13:11   How do you know?

00:13:12   And like it's.

00:13:12   Cause then you end up with these scenarios, which I've already seen some of this stuff

00:13:16   where like there is Reddit threads.

00:13:18   It's like, we got the perfect one.

00:13:19   So that stuff doesn't work like that either.

00:13:21   Right.

00:13:21   Cause people are different sizes and that's why it's complicated.

00:13:24   We finally found the right size for the one head that everybody on Reddit has.

00:13:28   It's like, no, that's not, that's not how it works.

00:13:30   Isn't it isn't it.

00:13:32   Anyway, I appreciate Jonathan's link to the support.

00:13:35   I appreciate that somebody in apple dog.

00:13:36   Here's the thing.

00:13:37   People in apple documentation obviously felt that this was an issue that needed to be documented.

00:13:41   However, at the store, the experience that at least I had was not as good as that.

00:13:48   As we've said last week, and I feel like I'm going to keep saying this.

00:13:51   The vision pro is like the most, your mileage may vary product does ever exist.

00:13:56   It's like a Rorschach test because literally everybody sees something different because

00:14:00   everybody has a different, I mean, I mean, you know this, you've seen some of the discourse

00:14:04   about this.

00:14:04   It's not just that like our heads are different sizes and our faces are different shapes,

00:14:09   but it is that not, and it's not just that our eyes have different things about them

00:14:14   that require adjustment.

00:14:15   It's also that like our brains process visual stimulus differently.

00:14:21   Like different people process it differently.

00:14:25   It's yes, it's the most one, you know, uh, your mileage may vary product apple has ever

00:14:29   made for sure.

00:14:31   Jana wrote in to say, Jason mentioned that personas on the vision pro could have the

00:14:35   benefit of not having to do your makeup to be as presentable as your usual self on a

00:14:39   video call.

00:14:40   But unfortunately for me, this is disappointingly untrue.

00:14:44   I scan myself wearing my fairly typical makeup, including eyeshadow and non-natural color

00:14:49   purple, uh, in a non-natural color purple, and the persona doesn't include it at all.

00:14:54   Maybe the cameras are taking a depth map and applying a skin color as a skin.

00:14:59   This is interesting to me because my persona has accurate blemishes on my skin.

00:15:06   So why wouldn't it capture makeup?

00:15:09   Like I find that to be peculiar.

00:15:11   I would like to know from more people about this.

00:15:13   I wonder if it's because the eyes are animated and therefore the eyes are more generic.

00:15:17   Like if there's a part of your core, your, uh, what is this product driven us to Mike?

00:15:22   I'm about, I'm just going to say it.

00:15:24   So part of your like core face, your, your central face is, um, is, is more accurately

00:15:32   rendered.

00:15:32   And then that things that are more peripheral or more animated or not, I don't know.

00:15:36   It's, this is great to hear from Jana.

00:15:38   Cause I'm surprised because we did see that, that your eyes didn't look correct, right?

00:15:43   Like that, that there was something going on, but it wasn't what's actually goes on in

00:15:47   your eyes.

00:15:48   I mean, what you said is, is it looked like one of my eyes was a different color.

00:15:52   And I get that a lot.

00:15:53   It, it, it, it is maybe slightly, but a lot, mostly it's optical illusion because one of

00:15:57   my pupils is bigger than the other.

00:15:59   Some of the time, not all the time.

00:16:00   If I make a new persona, what I need to do is get the light exactly right so that my

00:16:04   pupils are equal sizes and then we won't have this conversation.

00:16:07   But yeah, it, it represented it.

00:16:09   I don't know if it represented it entirely accurately, but it did represent it in a way.

00:16:13   Um, but this is a good question, right?

00:16:15   Like, does it have, uh, things like the color of the eyeshadow?

00:16:19   Does it say, uh, I'm not going to render that.

00:16:22   If you've got eyeliner, does it render the eyeliner?

00:16:24   I, I mentioned this before.

00:16:26   I have a friend who, um, when she's on a zoom, she uses, believe it or not, zoom has this

00:16:32   feature.

00:16:32   Zoom has a virtual eyebrows feature.

00:16:34   True story.

00:16:36   And you can just add eyebrows in zoom.

00:16:39   And, uh, like, uh, so there's lots of ways you can approach this, but apple, can I ask

00:16:43   some questions about this?

00:16:45   Maybe you can answer, but I can't answer them.

00:16:47   Does this friend have no eyebrows?

00:16:50   Uh, I think she's unhappy with her eyebrows and so zoom replaced new eyebrows on top of

00:16:54   your existing eyebrows where otherwise you might do makeup or something.

00:16:58   Okay.

00:16:58   Exactly.

00:16:59   Anyway, zoom is just for eyebrows.

00:17:03   Like nothing else.

00:17:04   I don't know.

00:17:05   It's one of those things where it's like an overlay.

00:17:07   It's like an Instagram, like a, like a Snapchat filter kind of thing.

00:17:11   I don't know.

00:17:12   Eyebrows.

00:17:12   It's virtual eyebrows.

00:17:13   I didn't get it.

00:17:14   It's how do they work?

00:17:16   So, um, this is a great data point for Jana and I really do wonder like what gets picked

00:17:21   up and is it that, uh, she mentioned non-natural color, right?

00:17:24   Maybe, maybe there's something about that where, um, there are blemishes and things

00:17:30   that they will try to do, especially if it's in your central face.

00:17:33   My central face.

00:17:34   My blemishes are on my central face.

00:17:35   So I will agree.

00:17:36   But if you're in a, it's part of your peripheral face and it's also a non-natural color, maybe

00:17:40   that they just dropped that.

00:17:41   What are we talking about at this point?

00:17:45   You know, central face, peripheral face.

00:17:48   Yeah, that's right.

00:17:50   It's more and more of a suburb of your face.

00:17:51   It's an face.

00:17:53   And we need, we need to eject from the Apple vision pro followup and go into the land of

00:17:58   sensibility.

00:17:59   Welcome back to DMA today.

00:18:01   Today.

00:18:03   Everybody's so excited about DMA today where we try and make sense of what's going on with

00:18:07   the DMA today.

00:18:09   And so the way that DMA today has gone so far is how it's going to continue.

00:18:13   I'm going to read some feedback about the core technology fee in this very slow argument

00:18:18   and debate we're having with our audience, which I love.

00:18:21   And then I have some news for you.

00:18:22   Daniel writes in to say regarding the core technology fee.

00:18:25   I think the main problem referring to apps never having been built for the app store

00:18:30   and therefore nothing has changed is that part of my reading on the DMA is, is it supposed

00:18:35   to clamp down on Apple's monopoly on deciding who or what can be on your phone as opposed

00:18:41   to it only being about the money.

00:18:43   With this logic, Apple has made sure that a whole bunch of apps can realistically never

00:18:48   be on the platform anyway.

00:18:49   After last week where I, where I pushed back on listeners, I'm just going to say, Daniel,

00:18:54   I agree.

00:18:55   Thank you for your feedback.

00:18:56   I do, but like, you know, we're, I feel like we get into the core of it and this is the

00:19:01   core of the core.

00:19:02   This is like a good point, right?

00:19:04   There's like, if these are apps, this is supposed to be a situation where apps that couldn't

00:19:08   exist before can exist, but they still can't exist because they can't afford to exist.

00:19:14   Right.

00:19:15   I think it goes, it gets to the question, which I think is a question that we can argue

00:19:20   about the legal points and the details of it and all of that.

00:19:22   But I think sometimes what you have to do is say, what was the intended purpose of all

00:19:27   of this?

00:19:27   And did that happen?

00:19:30   And that, that I think is, is worth considering.

00:19:34   Got a good point from Mathaus who says, for open source apps that do not intend to make

00:19:40   any money, they could publish through a charity.

00:19:43   There are multiple existing open source charities that could publish open source apps.

00:19:48   Since the code is open source, anyone can publish it and charities do not pay the technology

00:19:53   fee.

00:19:53   Love it.

00:19:54   That's good.

00:19:55   Yeah.

00:19:55   I think nonprofits and educational institutions don't pay the technology fee.

00:19:59   So I mean, a charity, I think it's nonprofits as well.

00:20:04   So, so you literally a nonprofit for open source iPhone apps would not pay the CTF.

00:20:10   And that could create an open source store.

00:20:12   Like that could be a way around it.

00:20:13   Right.

00:20:14   I suppose so.

00:20:15   Yeah.

00:20:16   And Matt writes in to say regarding the core technology fee, maybe this should not apply

00:20:21   if Apple has rejected an application.

00:20:23   The developer gave Apple the opportunity to have the app in their app store, but then

00:20:28   they chose not to have it.

00:20:30   It seems fair that they should then not, then they should not be able to make any money

00:20:35   from it.

00:20:35   I love this thought.

00:20:36   Love it.

00:20:37   Love it, right?

00:20:38   If you said you don't want it, then you shouldn't make anything.

00:20:41   You said you don't want it.

00:20:42   You want nothing to do with it.

00:20:44   Get Europe on the phone.

00:20:44   That's a good one.

00:20:45   Yeah.

00:20:46   Love it.

00:20:46   Love it.

00:20:47   Now we move into the news portion.

00:20:49   Microsoft gaming CEO Phil Spencer says that Microsoft will not bring game pass to iOS

00:20:54   as they feel that they cannot effectively monetize it with Apple's rules.

00:20:58   This is a quote.

00:20:59   "I'm a big fan of how Windows works, and you've got a Microsoft store on Windows, you've got

00:21:03   Steam, you've got the Epic Game Store, you've got GOG.

00:21:06   You have alternatives, and I think alternative ways for people to buy things creates goodness

00:21:11   for consumers and creators.

00:21:13   I think the largest platform for gamers, which is mobile, should have the same."

00:21:16   Basically, Microsoft don't want to give Apple any money.

00:21:19   I don't think it matters what they do.

00:21:21   They don't want to give them anything.

00:21:22   I've seen some point out that it's ironic that Microsoft don't do this with Xbox, but

00:21:28   I do think this comes back to the age-old question of how you define what an iPhone

00:21:32   is, and I do not think that an iPhone is in the same category as a games console.

00:21:37   Personally, I think it's in the same category as a PC or a Mac, but again, your mileage

00:21:43   may vary.

00:21:44   Your mileage may vary wherever it hits you on your general face area.

00:21:49   I was thinking about this the other day.

00:21:56   I think it's fair to say...

00:21:57   I was actually thinking about this while I was listening to last week's episode of Connected,

00:22:01   where you guys were talking about the post-PC era and how we're in it in the sense that

00:22:06   there's not going to be a new PC made.

00:22:08   We have PCs, but nobody's going to say, "Oh, we got a new device that's a PC."

00:22:14   What I was thinking about is, really what you're saying is, in the infancy of computers,

00:22:20   we created these computers that were general-purpose computers, where the idea was they can do

00:22:25   whatever.

00:22:25   We don't know what they're for.

00:22:26   Just program them to do whatever, and they'll do that.

00:22:29   The way that the iPhone and the iPad and other devices like that are like game consoles is

00:22:35   in the sense that they're not general purpose, in the sense that they are more controlled

00:22:40   and more focused, and they're not like, "You can just do whatever.

00:22:44   It's wide open."

00:22:45   Apple has chosen to build those platforms, and really, most stuff now is much more like

00:22:51   lockdown.

00:22:52   In that way, I think it is like it.

00:22:54   I don't think it's the same as it.

00:22:56   I'm going to reserve a little bit of judgment for Phil Spencer talking about Windows and

00:23:02   not talking about how it works on Xbox, because I do think that he's talking out of...

00:23:06   Was it both sides of his mouth?

00:23:08   I don't know.

00:23:09   I do think it's kind of rich that he talks about openness when he's got a platform that's

00:23:13   closed and locked down, but at the same time, it doesn't mean that he's not making some

00:23:17   decent points.

00:23:18   I completely agree.

00:23:18   There is some irony there, but it comes back to that question.

00:23:23   I think at the point now where it seems like basically every device or platform is locked

00:23:32   down to some degree, right?

00:23:33   We are in the post-PC era.

00:23:35   Except for Mac and Windows, yeah.

00:23:37   You've got to look at what is the purpose of the device, I think, a little bit more.

00:23:41   Exactly.

00:23:42   Yeah.

00:23:42   What is the...

00:23:43   It's not general purpose, then what is it?

00:23:45   Yeah.

00:23:47   If you just do one thing, then you're maybe a little bit more specific.

00:23:52   But if you purport to do lots of different things and you're trying to fill lots of different

00:23:57   areas, then you're creating a more open, in theory, platform.

00:24:00   Not open in the sense of open.

00:24:02   Right.

00:24:02   Yeah, right.

00:24:03   The way you define it also defines sort of how you should be judged by it.

00:24:08   Anyway, my thought here is mostly that I'm disappointed by this, that Microsoft has decided

00:24:12   not to do this because Apple did change the rules and it feels like Microsoft was headed

00:24:15   there and then Apple said it's against the rules.

00:24:18   Now Apple has said it is okay and Microsoft says, "Well, no.

00:24:21   We're not going to do it."

00:24:22   What I don't understand is why Microsoft are not bringing Game Pass and just not putting

00:24:28   the ability for people to sign up.

00:24:30   Why isn't...

00:24:32   Can't they just make a reader app?

00:24:33   I'm pretty sure they can make a reader app.

00:24:35   Right.

00:24:35   And I think that was what they were thinking of doing before.

00:24:37   And I don't know, I find it frustrating because this feels like it's not...

00:24:41   First off, a lot of this is getting conflated with the DMA and it's not the same.

00:24:45   That's a different conversation.

00:24:47   But even though we put it in DMA today, sorry everybody.

00:24:51   Well, I mean, he is also in the quote.

00:24:56   Like I took a bit...

00:24:57   He is talking about the DMA.

00:24:59   Right.

00:24:59   So this is the challenge is there's the DMA which they're against.

00:25:02   But the global allowance of game streaming services on iOS is not the DMA.

00:25:07   And that's the thing where I feel like Microsoft could just do that.

00:25:10   And I hope they reconsider at some point because I think that would be good for everyone.

00:25:16   Honestly, I see this as a similar thing to Mark Zuckerberg last week where everybody's

00:25:21   making a lot of points right now because they're trying to get the EU to force Apple to go

00:25:24   further.

00:25:25   To do more.

00:25:26   Yeah, I agree.

00:25:27   As mentioned previously, Epic are going to be bringing the Epic Game Store to iOS in

00:25:32   Europe, but they needed something pretty important to do that, which was an Apple developer account

00:25:37   because theirs was taken away.

00:25:39   Apple have reinstated Epic's developer account for the App Store.

00:25:44   So they will be able to bring the Epic Game Store and Fortnite to iOS in the European

00:25:48   Union in the not too distant future.

00:25:50   I'm not sure if technically they reinstated that account, but they have a subsidiary that

00:25:55   is in Sweden.

00:25:57   Yeah.

00:25:57   That is going to be their European publisher for their store and Fortnite in the EU.

00:26:05   And that's part of the rules of the European-influenced App Store environment, whatever we want to

00:26:13   call it, is if you're an entity in the EU, you can run these alternative app marketplaces.

00:26:18   So they have taken their Swedish entity and they're going to use that.

00:26:23   I think it is a reinstatement in spirit because I reckon if Epic tried to set up an account

00:26:28   before now, Apple would have not let them because they could have just kept doing that.

00:26:33   I think that's right.

00:26:34   But technically, I think it may be a new account.

00:26:36   But yes, in spirit, it is that.

00:26:37   The European Commission has determined that iMessage is not a dominant enough platform

00:26:43   to be regulated under the DMA.

00:26:45   This was something that needed to be set up and that's the case.

00:26:48   However, this isn't DMA related, but it's Europe related, so it's also in this category.

00:26:55   The European Commission has issued a 500 million euro fine to Apple for working

00:27:00   anti-competitively against Spotify for Apple Music.

00:27:04   This is the result of a complaint filed by Spotify in 2019.

00:27:08   I'm going to read from 9to5Mac.

00:27:10   Specifically, the EU believes Apple acted illegally in blocking music streaming apps

00:27:15   like Spotify from telling customers about other ways to subscribe to their services

00:27:19   and thereby evade Apple's commission on in-app purchases.

00:27:23   They are usually referred to as the App Store's anti-steering provisions.

00:27:27   The forthcoming EU judgment will not force Apple to permit alternative in-app payment methods,

00:27:33   but it will insist music streaming app developers can freely link out to their website to subscribe

00:27:38   online.

00:27:38   So the expectation is that this is more than the reader app rule, which is just one link,

00:27:44   right?

00:27:44   That the European Union is going to save the music streaming services specifically because

00:27:48   that's what this case is for.

00:27:49   You need to allow them to put links basically wherever they want.

00:27:53   Oh, and also you've got to give Spotify half a billion dollars a euros.

00:27:57   Yeah, yeah.

00:28:00   I mean, this is one of the things that I've always found the most offensive about Apple's

00:28:04   practices is when they set up...

00:28:06   There are places where they're like, we're just gardening our platform.

00:28:11   We're tending to our users' needs.

00:28:14   It's the moments when they're like, oh, but also we're going to make our own music service

00:28:20   or we're going to make our own bookstore and their bookstore doesn't have to play by the

00:28:24   rules that all the other bookstores do.

00:28:27   That's what really bothers me.

00:28:28   And we're going to price it the same, but we essentially make 30% more money than they

00:28:33   can make.

00:28:33   Than they could possibly make.

00:28:35   And therefore they can never come into our platform and we're the only ones who can have

00:28:40   this business model on our platform.

00:28:43   And that's the stuff that really irks me.

00:28:45   So I mean, 500 million euros is not going to hurt them really at all.

00:28:50   But it is a lot of money.

00:28:51   It is a lot of money.

00:28:52   Yeah.

00:28:53   But yes, to Apple, not a lot, but they also don't want to pay it.

00:28:56   But well, there you go.

00:28:58   Of course they don't.

00:28:59   That's what you get.

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00:30:22   - It's draft time, we're doing a draft today, woo!

00:30:26   - People, are they surprised, do they know?

00:30:29   Do they know, it's like, what did Apple, is Apple doing an event?

00:30:31   No, it's not that kind of draft.

00:30:32   - It's a draft of our own.

00:30:34   So for the last few years, every 100 episodes, we make a set of predictions for 100 episodes

00:30:42   from now.

00:30:43   So we started this with episode 300 in 2020, and we've done it again for episode 400,

00:30:49   and here we are for episode 500.

00:30:51   So we're gonna do two things today.

00:30:52   - It's the upgrade draft of the ages, woo!

00:30:54   - The draft of the ages.

00:30:55   We're gonna look back our predictions from episode 400, we're gonna grade them, and

00:31:02   then we're gonna look at our predictions, well, then we're gonna set some predictions

00:31:07   for episode 600.

00:31:09   - Yes, 600, mm-hmm.

00:31:11   - So let's go through these, so.

00:31:13   - All right.

00:31:13   - We'll do round one.

00:31:14   You said an iMac larger than 24 inches will exist.

00:31:18   - Don't you like my optimism?

00:31:20   - Mm-hmm.

00:31:21   - But it's not true, it didn't happen.

00:31:24   - Didn't happen.

00:31:24   - In fact, there was a press release.

00:31:25   - This one really didn't happen.

00:31:29   - It's not happening, Jason said, an attributed Apple executive.

00:31:34   - Then mine was an Apple car will not exist.

00:31:37   - I don't appreciate your lack of optimism, but you are correct.

00:31:42   - You said Apple TV Plus broadcast another live sport that is not baseball.

00:31:49   - MLS, baby.

00:31:50   - An entire league, not just a sport, they got all of it.

00:31:54   - They got all of it.

00:31:55   - And then I can't believe this one didn't happen.

00:31:58   My second pick was Apple TV Plus will include live programming that is not sports.

00:32:03   I was really surprised that they didn't do like a Christmas special or something.

00:32:06   - I know, right?

00:32:08   - Round three, you said an iPad will have a display larger than 12.9 inches.

00:32:14   - You know, like I'm a month away from this.

00:32:17   - Yeah, you're so close, so close.

00:32:19   - Month away.

00:32:19   - Maybe if we wouldn't, you know, we've definitely done some bonus episodes over

00:32:24   the last couple of years, right, where like drafts have happened and stuff.

00:32:28   If those wouldn't have happened, you might have actually gotten this one.

00:32:30   - I think I might've gotten four out of five.

00:32:33   - If it was at the end of March, at the end, and we'll get to it, but like I think I

00:32:40   would have gotten four out of five if this was the end of March, but it's not yet.

00:32:44   Can we do these every 110 episodes?

00:32:48   - Let's go through these because then I want to talk about this for a second.

00:32:51   All right, I said two more Apple hardware products will be called Studio.

00:32:55   That didn't happen.

00:32:56   - No, it didn't happen.

00:32:57   I love your idea though.

00:32:58   - I was really excited about Studio, but nothing else happened.

00:33:02   - Nope.

00:33:03   - Round four, somewhere in the world, Apple will allow users to sideload iOS apps.

00:33:09   - Okay, so this is so close to being because, okay, first off, there's the will allow.

00:33:21   And as you pointed out to me when we were talking about this, technically,

00:33:27   it hasn't happened yet.

00:33:28   - Yep.

00:33:28   - It happens in a couple of weeks.

00:33:31   - Uh-huh.

00:33:32   - And second, I use the word sideload, which is not technically what's going to happen.

00:33:37   - No, this specifically is not sideloading.

00:33:40   - Alternative app stores, but honestly, if I had said allow alternative app stores,

00:33:47   I would still not get it because it hasn't happened yet.

00:33:50   - It hasn't happened, this is so heartbreaking.

00:33:56   - WWDC has not returned to its pre-2020 style, which is true.

00:34:01   - Correct, absolutely, that was yours.

00:34:02   - And Apple Watch gets a new design.

00:34:05   - Apple Watch Ultra, baby.

00:34:06   - Which is, yes, it was the Apple Watch Ultra.

00:34:09   And I said external display support for iPad won't happen.

00:34:13   - It happened.

00:34:14   - It happened.

00:34:15   So that puts us at two-two.

00:34:17   - Two-two with no tiebreaker.

00:34:19   - Where if this was three weeks, four weeks from now, it would probably be four-two to you.

00:34:25   - Yeah, at least three-two, yeah.

00:34:27   We could have debated sideload, but it wouldn't have mattered, right?

00:34:30   Because there'll be a 13-inch iPad Pro or something, and that'll be enough.

00:34:35   Even though, I will say, that was not my intent, right?

00:34:37   Like those two picks, your studio and my 12.9 inches,

00:34:41   was both of us dreaming a 15-inch iPad studio.

00:34:44   We were dreaming that.

00:34:45   - Which, I mean, still might happen.

00:34:46   - Still might happen.

00:34:48   - We don't know, it could still happen.

00:34:49   - But it didn't, not today, not on February 19th, 2024,

00:34:54   when episode 500 happens.

00:34:55   And that's the point of it, is it's every 100 episodes.

00:34:59   So we're dealing with what will happen in slightly less than two years from now.

00:35:04   And I just missed it.

00:35:07   - I will say, because we're going to make our picks again in a minute,

00:35:11   there is something really weird about two years from now.

00:35:15   Because it's in the future, but it's not that far away.

00:35:19   Like it's actually pretty hard to make predictions for a two-year span.

00:35:24   Like five years is easy, one year is easy, two years, hard.

00:35:28   - Because you get run away with future, and then you're like,

00:35:30   "But wait, it's just two years from now."

00:35:32   Magical things can't, like Apple Car will ship.

00:35:36   It's like, "Mm, probably not in two years, probably not."

00:35:38   - Probably not.

00:35:38   So congratulations to us, we drew.

00:35:41   - Yes, two-two.

00:35:42   - We drew, we drew.

00:35:43   So let's, I know we've got a bunch.

00:35:46   - So close.

00:35:46   - Let's start off by saying we'll do five rounds.

00:35:49   - Okay.

00:35:50   - And I think we're going to have to flip a coin

00:35:53   to decide who goes first.

00:35:54   - I want you to go first.

00:35:56   - Oh, okay.

00:35:56   - You're the existing champion of the regular draft,

00:36:01   and this one had no winner.

00:36:03   So I'm going to let you go first.

00:36:05   And that way I can have more time to think what I'm going to pick.

00:36:08   - All right, my first one is boring.

00:36:10   Tim Cook is still CEO of Apple.

00:36:12   - Oh, you know, I think in Upgrade Plus,

00:36:16   we'll talk about what we didn't pick.

00:36:17   But I have some Tim Cook ones that are not that.

00:36:22   Tim Cook is still CEO of Apple.

00:36:23   I, again, I'm going to admire your optimism there.

00:36:26   - I think.

00:36:27   - Good for you.

00:36:27   - This is the two-year thing, right?

00:36:29   - Two-year, I know.

00:36:32   - I think that he's not going anywhere

00:36:34   for a longer period of time than that.

00:36:36   - I don't know, I don't know.

00:36:39   I, okay, now I got to choose one.

00:36:44   What do I think?

00:36:47   I'm going to say, oh, wow.

00:36:52   Okay, I got one for you.

00:36:55   This is too good not to pick, so I'm going to pick it.

00:36:57   Apple apologizes for offensive or embarrassing content

00:37:02   that was generated by an Apple AI algorithm.

00:37:05   - This is going to be Tim Cook sitting down in front of a sofa.

00:37:15   He's like, "We're sorry."

00:37:18   You know, like one of those?

00:37:20   They're going to get like a, "We're sorry YouTube video."

00:37:22   - It's going to be a gate.

00:37:23   No, it's going to be an unnamed Apple source on background

00:37:27   saying that they feel bad and that it's been corrected.

00:37:30   But still, I just feel like, right?

00:37:33   They're about to unveil lots of AI stuff.

00:37:35   And it's like, isn't it inevitable

00:37:37   that something bad will happen and they'll apologize for it?

00:37:39   I think it is.

00:37:40   - I love it.

00:37:43   You've already gone more interesting than me

00:37:46   because again, my next round,

00:37:47   it's not particularly interesting.

00:37:48   I think within two years.

00:37:50   - This is why I lose all these drafts

00:37:51   as I try to be entertaining.

00:37:52   - But I appreciate it.

00:37:54   Revised Vision Pro hardware.

00:37:56   - Oh, again, I have a pick that says none.

00:38:00   - I think two years-ish is enough to see a hardware revision.

00:38:09   And I'm talking about the Vision Pro.

00:38:11   I'm not saying like vision or whatever,

00:38:14   but I think in that period, it will be enough time.

00:38:18   There is like a thought of mine

00:38:20   where I'm wondering how fast it will be

00:38:24   until that revision happens.

00:38:26   Like I don't think they would do a year over year

00:38:30   for this product, but for the first one,

00:38:33   maybe they do depending on, I don't know, right?

00:38:36   Like this is a conversation we'll have later on

00:38:38   about how much they could realistically change

00:38:41   or would want to change within a short period of time.

00:38:43   But I think within the next 100 weeks,

00:38:47   we will see Revised Vision Pro hardware.

00:38:50   - Okay.

00:38:50   I'm gonna go with a bummer pick and say one Apple Watch

00:38:56   no longer fits, at least one Apple Watch,

00:39:00   no longer fits the classic Apple Watch bands.

00:39:02   - Hmm, okay.

00:39:03   - I don't like it, but it feels like it might happen.

00:39:07   - Take it.

00:39:08   - I think this feels like something that has to happen at some point.

00:39:11   Like I just, I'm not saying I want it,

00:39:13   but I feel like it is an inevitability.

00:39:15   They can't keep that thing forever.

00:39:18   Like it's a certain point,

00:39:20   it is going to limit the design of the Apple Watch.

00:39:23   And as soon as that happens, they're gonna have to change it.

00:39:25   - Yep.

00:39:27   - I'm gonna go with an Apple Watch pick

00:39:29   and say that an Apple Watch gets a glucose monitor.

00:39:34   - Ah, that was on my list.

00:39:35   That was on my list.

00:39:37   That's a big, that's good.

00:39:40   I like how risky it is.

00:39:41   See, now you're entertaining.

00:39:44   Now you're entertaining.

00:39:45   - I don't know if it's gonna be entertaining,

00:39:47   but it's the thing.

00:39:48   - They're gonna make it happen, they're gonna do it.

00:39:50   That's great, that's great.

00:39:52   All right, I will see you your glucose monitor and raise you.

00:39:57   Apple Card or Apple Cash will expand to at least one more country.

00:40:02   - I think they need to find a partner first for the US.

00:40:05   - I'm just saying.

00:40:10   - I would like it.

00:40:10   - It's US only.

00:40:13   - Yeah.

00:40:14   - It's still US only.

00:40:15   - Oh yeah.

00:40:15   - It's been years now.

00:40:16   Come on, Apple.

00:40:18   - I'm gonna say for my fourth round pick,

00:40:22   there is still no larger iMac.

00:40:26   - Okay, all right.

00:40:28   Taking my prediction from 100 episodes ago

00:40:31   and just extending it into the future.

00:40:32   - I don't think it's--

00:40:33   - Now that Apple has said that they're not gonna do it,

00:40:36   you're saying, yeah, they're not gonna do it.

00:40:37   - They're not gonna do it.

00:40:38   - All right, okay, all right.

00:40:40   Okay, I'm gonna give you a Vision Pro pick

00:40:44   that you're probably, I don't know, maybe you'll like it.

00:40:46   It's broad.

00:40:49   I tried to do something detailed here

00:40:51   and I decided I wanted to go broad with this,

00:40:53   which is Apple will release some new input device product

00:40:59   designed for Vision OS.

00:41:00   - Oh, I like this.

00:41:03   - So it could be combo keyboard trackpad.

00:41:06   It could be hand tracker.

00:41:08   It could be thing you put on your wrist.

00:41:10   I don't know, something.

00:41:13   - Well, what is the Apple Pencil for Vision Pro?

00:41:17   Not that it's an Apple Pencil, but like--

00:41:19   - Maybe it's a pencil, just a regular pencil.

00:41:21   - Right, like something that I would like,

00:41:24   I would like to be able to walk up to,

00:41:26   like so in the Horizon work rooms on the MetaQuest,

00:41:32   you can use the controller as like a pen

00:41:34   to write on a fake whiteboard.

00:41:36   I would like to be able to do that with freeform.

00:41:39   Like Apple have this weird thing

00:41:40   where they're trying to do it with hand tracking,

00:41:41   but it's not very good.

00:41:42   I would like to be able to use freeform like a whiteboard,

00:41:45   walk up to it with my pencil or whatever

00:41:48   and just draw on it, that would be great.

00:41:49   - So this is my thought, this is my thought process here

00:41:52   is Apple chose to go with pure hand tracking.

00:41:55   Pure hand tracking, as good as Apple's hand tracking is

00:41:57   and it is good, it has a lot of limits.

00:42:00   The advantage of, I would say optional hand accessories

00:42:06   is precision and there are certain,

00:42:08   whether it's games or something like writing on a whiteboard,

00:42:12   a little extra precision is nice.

00:42:15   So whether it's yes, an Apple Pencil

00:42:18   or a little hand controller that you just put in your hand

00:42:21   and then you can do it and then it's much more precise.

00:42:23   I don't really know, but I just had this,

00:42:26   I think it's worth taking the chance of like,

00:42:28   maybe there's an accessory out there

00:42:30   that is an opportunity for them.

00:42:32   Now that they've shipped the product

00:42:33   and they're getting user feedback,

00:42:34   maybe there is something that they can do

00:42:36   to improve the Vision OS experience over the next two years.

00:42:38   - Are we gonna make this our final round?

00:42:41   - We could, or we could go one more, I don't care.

00:42:46   I got so many choices here.

00:42:47   - Let's do six.

00:42:48   - Okay, we'll do six, great.

00:42:49   - I'm gonna build on some of my picks from last time,

00:42:53   some of our picks from last time,

00:42:54   but this is something that I think is going to happen

00:42:58   at some point, so maybe it will happen

00:43:00   in the next two years.

00:43:02   Apple has another sport on TV plus.

00:43:04   - Another sport.

00:43:05   - Like there were rumors about Formula One.

00:43:08   I think Formula One still makes a lot of sense,

00:43:11   but I think there is enough tumult in sport rights

00:43:15   that at some point this is gonna happen

00:43:20   and I think Apple, they've shown their willingness

00:43:24   for sport, right?

00:43:25   They've obviously done a lot with Vision Pro.

00:43:28   Oh, sorry, with MLS and so I think,

00:43:31   and for Vision Pro, right?

00:43:32   They're gonna want more stuff.

00:43:34   So I think it could happen.

00:43:35   - Okay, I like it.

00:43:38   Let's do HomePod with a screen.

00:43:48   How about that?

00:43:49   HomePod with a screen.

00:43:52   I mean, you know, if it's not called HomePod,

00:43:55   we know what it is.

00:43:55   - We know what it is.

00:43:57   - We know what it is.

00:43:58   - It's a gentleman's agreement here.

00:44:00   - I would like that.

00:44:01   All right, final pick.

00:44:05   Okay, the iPhone Ultra is introduced.

00:44:10   - Ooh.

00:44:11   - So that's it, huh?

00:44:13   - That's it.

00:44:14   I mean, I think that there is one more attempt

00:44:19   at fixing the branding of the iPhone, right?

00:44:22   That they've had that issue with like the fourth iPhone.

00:44:25   I think that there is a sense to be made

00:44:27   for having four distinct iPhone models, right?

00:44:31   And that might actually help them

00:44:32   with their lineup a little bit more, right?

00:44:34   So iPhone Plus Pro Ultra.

00:44:39   Rather than this, like they've got the two Pros,

00:44:43   they're the regular iPhone and then they have another one.

00:44:46   So I think that this might give some consistency to the line,

00:44:49   allow them to push up in price a little bit more.

00:44:52   Ultra is a brand that they use.

00:44:54   I think that it's obviously,

00:44:56   and so I think this is gonna happen, iPhone Ultra.

00:44:58   - All right, I like it.

00:44:59   I'm gonna go with, I started weirder than I'm ending,

00:45:03   but I'm gonna go with a new standalone display from Apple.

00:45:08   - Lovely.

00:45:08   I would like that in a couple of weeks time.

00:45:10   - I mean, new or updated,

00:45:12   but the idea that it's been so long,

00:45:14   they did like the something else,

00:45:18   update something in the displays.

00:45:20   They're so slow with displays,

00:45:22   but I think if I give them 100 weeks,

00:45:23   maybe they could give me one, maybe, would be nice.

00:45:27   - We will check back in about two years from now

00:45:31   and see just how well did we fare.

00:45:34   - Join us in January of 2026.

00:45:37   - Wow, look forward to it everyone.

00:45:40   - This episode is brought to you by Delete.me.

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00:47:59   So it's a big day in Six Colors land.

00:48:03   It is the 2023 Apple Report Card.

00:48:06   - It is.

00:48:07   - For people that are new around here, Jason,

00:48:09   what is the Six Colors Report Card?

00:48:11   - I ask a bunch of people who are mostly kind of media

00:48:18   or other people involved in discussing the Apple

00:48:23   on the internet, basically, to score Apple

00:48:27   in a bunch of categories from one to five

00:48:29   about what Apple did in the previous year.

00:48:32   It is a measurement of general sentiment.

00:48:34   I always use the phrase, it's the vibe in the room.

00:48:37   I think that anybody who's been following the conversation

00:48:40   for the last year will not be surprised by the outcome

00:48:43   because it is the people who have been having

00:48:47   the conversation, so it shouldn't be particularly shocking,

00:48:50   but it's a way for us to measure it

00:48:52   and compare it to previous years

00:48:55   and then get a bunch of commentary from those people

00:48:57   if they want to share commentary

00:48:59   that goes in a very long post on my website.

00:49:02   So more than 25,000 words of commentary

00:49:05   if people wanna wade through it or they can skim it

00:49:07   or they can ignore it, but also some numbers

00:49:11   and some changes over time just to get a sense

00:49:14   of sort of like, what are people in this sphere

00:49:17   thinking about Apple's performance in the last year?

00:49:19   - So what we're gonna do, I'm gonna run through

00:49:23   each of the categories.

00:49:25   We'll talk about the scores and their changes

00:49:28   and then give our own scores.

00:49:30   I submitted my information to the report card.

00:49:33   You included me, but you do not vote,

00:49:35   so I wanna get your votes today.

00:49:37   I really recommend people go check out the scorecard

00:49:40   'cause there's so many great quotes

00:49:42   and also one of my favorite things that's happening

00:49:45   right now, which I'm sure you love too,

00:49:46   is people posting their full report cards on their websites.

00:49:50   That must be, I reckon, pretty good

00:49:51   for sending traffic over to you.

00:49:53   - That's great and I like that they do that

00:49:55   'cause they have lots to say and they wanna say it

00:49:57   and I trim it down.

00:49:59   So I trim down like people send in like explanations

00:50:03   of why it's a certain score and I take out the,

00:50:06   like the details of like why they chose a number,

00:50:09   I don't put in there.

00:50:10   I'm not interested in that and I will remove some things

00:50:13   if it's redundant or if they didn't really have much to say.

00:50:15   I try to slim it down at least a little bit

00:50:17   and I'll also say if people are curious,

00:50:20   each section is, sometimes there are very funny placements

00:50:24   where one person says something

00:50:25   and they're immediately contradicted by somebody else.

00:50:27   I find those hilarious.

00:50:29   Every section is randomized.

00:50:30   So the sequence of the comments in the story per section

00:50:35   is random.

00:50:35   So I'm not doing the thing where there's a moment in there

00:50:40   where like everybody says how great Apple TV+ is

00:50:42   and the next person's like,

00:50:43   "There's nothing on Apple TV+."

00:50:45   Like, oh boy, wow.

00:50:46   Yeah, but it's all there for people who wanna spend

00:50:51   a lot of time reading words about Apple, it's there.

00:50:53   - So it's a score out of five.

00:50:55   Five is the maximum.

00:50:56   - Yeah, one to five.

00:50:57   - I would start with the Mac, which got a 4.2,

00:51:01   which was the same year over year.

00:51:03   I scored four for the Mac.

00:51:06   Really just because I think that the Mac

00:51:08   is just continuing to be in a very good spot.

00:51:12   If you think about the hardware,

00:51:16   in my opinion, it's like as best as it's been

00:51:18   in the entire time I've been following Apple

00:51:20   from capability and design and stuff like that.

00:51:23   Like there are no glaring issues, I feel.

00:51:26   I know that everybody has their own issues,

00:51:29   but this is my score, I think it's really good.

00:51:32   The only reason I wouldn't put it higher is

00:51:35   you kinda gotta reserve it

00:51:36   for if there's something new, right?

00:51:38   And there isn't this time.

00:51:41   We're in a bit of maintenance.

00:51:43   - Well, I mean, there's the Mac Pro

00:51:44   that didn't do anything more than the Mac Studio.

00:51:47   - Yep, yep, maybe I should have given it a five

00:51:48   because of the Mac Pro, but I didn't.

00:51:50   But I feel like where Apple is right now,

00:51:53   I think they've cleared basically everything up

00:51:55   and they put themselves in a real good position

00:51:58   for the continuing future of Apple Silicon.

00:52:00   So it feels like a very easy four for me.

00:52:03   - Yeah, I agree.

00:52:05   I think four is a good number.

00:52:07   I don't think it was a perfect year,

00:52:08   but they are doing so well with the Mac.

00:52:10   It's riding so high.

00:52:12   And I feel like the report card,

00:52:14   a lot of people are very focused on what's new

00:52:19   and you'll see that with the iPad.

00:52:22   And I get it on one level,

00:52:23   but on another level, I feel like if the Mac lineup was not,

00:52:29   I mean, the Mac lineup,

00:52:30   we got two sets of MacBook Pros this year, right?

00:52:32   Like there's a lot going on in the Mac.

00:52:33   And yet at the same time, it was like,

00:52:35   there was not like a sea change.

00:52:37   It was mostly just sort of updates

00:52:39   and that's fine 'cause it's in a good place.

00:52:42   And so that carries some weight too.

00:52:44   So I would say four is a good number.

00:52:45   - The iPhone's 4.1 up from a 3.9.

00:52:50   I also gave it a four.

00:52:52   I think this is a very, very solid iPhone.

00:52:55   Like the iPhone revision we've got this year,

00:52:56   especially the Pro, especially the Pro Max.

00:52:59   I love the titanium.

00:53:01   I love the 5X camera.

00:53:03   USB-C has been a great addition,

00:53:05   but it's really just like a very solid refresh.

00:53:10   There has been nothing earth shattering.

00:53:13   So again, it's like,

00:53:14   I feel like this is as high as I could give a score

00:53:17   for this iPhone personally.

00:53:21   If you did, if I could have given it a 4.5,

00:53:24   I would have given it a 4.5.

00:53:25   - Yeah, I don't let you do that.

00:53:27   That's kind of talk that I just removed from the story.

00:53:29   Right there, talking about the rating system.

00:53:31   - You can't edit me.

00:53:33   - I can't edit you.

00:53:34   No, I can't.

00:53:35   Jim, take that out.

00:53:36   (laughing)

00:53:39   The, yeah, yeah.

00:53:41   Again, I think four is probably what I would settle on too.

00:53:47   Part of me thinks the iPhone is really quiet,

00:53:51   but at the same time, the titanium details,

00:53:53   as funny as it is when I see the ads

00:53:55   and they're like, "Ooh, titanium."

00:53:56   I'm like, "Does it matter?"

00:53:57   The fact is, I love how that thing feels.

00:53:59   I don't use a case.

00:54:00   Every time I pick it up, I'm like,

00:54:01   "Oh, smooth, light, nice."

00:54:03   It's like, it's really a nice phone.

00:54:05   The Pro Max with the big telephoto is huge.

00:54:08   USB-C is good.

00:54:10   Bringing Dynamic Island to all the phone models

00:54:13   or all the mainstream phone models this year was great

00:54:15   'cause I like the Dynamic Island as well.

00:54:18   So four seems about right.

00:54:20   Yup.

00:54:21   Now we move to, I think,

00:54:24   the category probably gonna get the most attention,

00:54:27   which is the iPad, which is a 2.4 down from a 3.0.

00:54:31   That's a bad grade.

00:54:32   I gave it a one,

00:54:33   and you didn't include my comment,

00:54:36   probably because it's all about scores,

00:54:38   but I'm gonna read my comment in its entirety

00:54:40   'cause I feel this deeply.

00:54:42   If there was a zero on this list,

00:54:44   it's what I would have given.

00:54:45   Zero new hardware, zero compelling OS features.

00:54:48   They made some additions for iPhone parity

00:54:50   and fixed some issues, introduced a 16.

00:54:53   Feels like a pure maintenance year.

00:54:55   I'm hoping to give this score a five for 2024.

00:54:57   I see it.

00:55:00   You don't get a zero.

00:55:01   The iPad has just been a disappointment this year.

00:55:05   And honestly, I hope that it is.

00:55:10   It was a disappointing year

00:55:11   because 2024 is gonna be amazing,

00:55:14   and I'm gonna choose that optimism,

00:55:16   but I'm not gonna ignore what 2023 was,

00:55:19   which was bad for the iPad.

00:55:20   I think I'm gonna give this a three

00:55:29   because while I am also frustrated

00:55:33   at the process of iPad hardware being not updated,

00:55:39   and of course, the iPad Pro, the one that I use,

00:55:41   its last update was not really much of an update.

00:55:44   Either, so it's really been treading water

00:55:46   for a very long time.

00:55:47   At the same time, I think there are a bunch

00:55:50   of really good iPads at good prices.

00:55:53   I think that the line is pretty good.

00:55:55   If there was an iPad line that could withstand a year

00:55:57   without a fresh iPad, it's this one.

00:56:00   It survived it.

00:56:01   It's okay.

00:56:02   You could still buy an iPad and they sold whatever,

00:56:07   seven billion of them,

00:56:08   a dollar's worth of them last quarter.

00:56:10   So I mean, those people didn't get shafted.

00:56:14   I think that was okay.

00:56:15   The reason I give it three instead of two, honestly,

00:56:18   is one, they made appreciable stage manager improvements

00:56:22   in iPad OS, which is something they,

00:56:24   making improvements after you launch a feature

00:56:27   is not something that Apple always does.

00:56:29   Sometimes they just let it lay there being bad for years,

00:56:32   and they didn't do that.

00:56:33   And two, I gotta give them credit for finally shipping

00:56:38   two Pro apps on the iPad, Logic and Final Cut Pro.

00:56:41   And while that doesn't necessarily balance out

00:56:44   some of the hardware sluggishness,

00:56:46   I do wanna give them credit for that

00:56:48   because I've been complaining about that for years

00:56:50   and years and years, and they shipped them,

00:56:52   and they did a creditable job at shipping them.

00:56:54   So for that, I'll take a three, considered two,

00:56:58   but I think I'll go with three.

00:57:01   - Yeah, I think you're being way more fair than I am.

00:57:03   Like, I am frustrated.

00:57:06   Because for me, I agree with you on stage manager,

00:57:09   but stage manager shouldn't have shipped originally.

00:57:13   It was bad, right?

00:57:15   And so fixing it is great,

00:57:16   but you put it to the bare minimum.

00:57:18   Like, it's not like that they added

00:57:21   the good things we wanted.

00:57:22   They just made it work.

00:57:23   - They made it usable, yeah.

00:57:25   No, this is the classic argument is,

00:57:27   do you give them credit for fixing the thing that they broke?

00:57:29   Do you give them credit for finally shipping apps

00:57:31   they should have shipped four years before?

00:57:34   I'm gonna give them a little credit for it.

00:57:35   - I should give credit for the Pro apps.

00:57:38   And saying what you're saying,

00:57:41   if I could, I would actually adjust to a two,

00:57:43   because I forgot about the Pro apps.

00:57:45   And that's my blind spot, because I don't use them,

00:57:48   and they just don't work for me,

00:57:49   so I forget that they exist.

00:57:51   But it is an important thing that they did.

00:57:54   I think I was too harsh.

00:57:55   I was too harsh on the hardware thing,

00:57:57   but it is something that's frustrated me,

00:57:59   because I do think that the iPad hardware line

00:58:03   has gotten quite confusing and complicated.

00:58:08   And at the moment, there isn't much of a justification

00:58:12   for why you should buy, say, the Pro still.

00:58:15   And so I've gotten a bit frustrated about that over time.

00:58:18   And in a year when they haven't done anything,

00:58:21   it kind of accentuated it for me,

00:58:23   but I feel like you were being more balanced,

00:58:26   and I was a bit more upset about it.

00:58:29   The Apple Watch is a 3.4, down from a 4.2.

00:58:34   I gave it a four,

00:58:35   because I got an Apple Watch Ultra this year,

00:58:38   and I think that's why it was a four last year,

00:58:40   because lots of people got an Apple Watch Ultra.

00:58:43   And I absolutely love...

00:58:45   The Apple Watch Ultra has changed my relationship

00:58:48   to the Apple Watch,

00:58:49   in a sense that I now enjoy my Apple Watch,

00:58:52   where I feel like I was starting to begrudgingly

00:58:55   wear my Apple Watch,

00:58:56   because of the frustrations I found in it,

00:58:58   and also the fact that it looked the same way

00:59:01   for a long time, and that bugged me.

00:59:03   And I really like the Ultra.

00:59:04   I'm a big fan of it,

00:59:05   and so I'm happy that it exists now.

00:59:09   - I think this is one of those categories

00:59:12   where I personally don't agree with the panel

00:59:16   focusing so much on what happened this year.

00:59:19   I also would give the Apple Watch a four.

00:59:22   I think the Apple Watch is in a good place.

00:59:24   I don't really care that the Ultra 2...

00:59:25   I mean, it was actually like a new chip.

00:59:27   They hadn't done that in a while.

00:59:29   I don't care that the pace of innovation is slow here,

00:59:31   because the Apple Watch has come a long way,

00:59:33   and they could always do more,

00:59:34   but I think the Apple Watch is in a fine place.

00:59:37   I think that updating the Ultra to the Ultra 2 is good.

00:59:39   They didn't just let it sit at Ultra.

00:59:41   They did improve the chip on that.

00:59:43   Yeah, I mean, I saw a lot of comments that are things like,

00:59:46   "Oh, that double-tap feature is not very interesting."

00:59:48   It's like, "Well, that's true."

00:59:50   That's true, but I'm not gonna say, "Well, one out of five,"

00:59:54   because the new feature that they added wasn't very good.

00:59:56   It's like, I think the Apple Watch is in a pretty good place.

00:59:58   I think the Ultra is a good addition to the line,

01:00:02   and I like that they updated it.

01:00:03   Is there more to be done in the Apple Watch?

01:00:06   Sure, but it's kind of the leader in smartwatches,

01:00:09   and the WatchOS...

01:00:11   I know WatchOS 10 was controversial.

01:00:14   I find myself not using most of the features of it.

01:00:17   I find that the changes they made,

01:00:19   I don't really use those features,

01:00:20   so it's kind of a wash for me.

01:00:22   I know people have opinions either way.

01:00:25   I could have given this a three.

01:00:26   I like the word just a lot.

01:00:27   Yeah, I could have given this a three.

01:00:29   I'll give it a four, but again,

01:00:32   I'm just really kind of reacting to the idea

01:00:34   that I don't think we need a brand new, fresh, amazing,

01:00:40   totally different watch hardware every year

01:00:43   for us to appreciate that the Apple Watch

01:00:45   is in a pretty decent place.

01:00:46   Wearables, is it a 3.5 down from a 4.4?

01:00:51   I think, as you've mentioned before.

01:00:53   There's just no, there wasn't stuff, right?

01:00:56   The AirPods Pro 2 came last year, in 2022, I think,

01:01:00   which you probably bought that up.

01:01:03   The year before last.

01:01:04   Okay.

01:01:04   It's those new features,

01:01:06   the conversational awareness and adaptive transparency,

01:01:09   which active transparency is a really great feature.

01:01:11   Yeah, I gave it a four for those features.

01:01:14   Conversational awareness and adaptive transparency,

01:01:16   they take time, I think, to get used to,

01:01:17   but if you commit to it for a bit,

01:01:20   there's real benefit there,

01:01:21   and I really like the features.

01:01:23   I think they're really good.

01:01:24   I think I would say four here, too,

01:01:26   and it's for the same reason,

01:01:27   which is not a lot happened in this entire category,

01:01:29   including the Apple Watch this year of note,

01:01:32   but it's a good category.

01:01:34   Apple's products are good.

01:01:35   I think Apple struggles with making new models

01:01:40   and selling new models of things like AirPods,

01:01:42   in part because they are already really good,

01:01:45   and so, I mean, I can't mark them down for that.

01:01:48   I'm looking at this now.

01:01:52   So we got 2022, the end of 2022 was the second generation,

01:01:57   but then, of course, we got the USB-C version,

01:02:00   but I'm thinking, I'm sort of thinking about that.

01:02:02   Yes, just the minor USB-C

01:02:05   with other somehow Apple Vision Pro features in it.

01:02:08   That actually annoyed me.

01:02:09   That annoyed me that I had to do that,

01:02:11   but I did buy the second pair,

01:02:15   but I was frustrated about that.

01:02:18   Apple TV is a 3, down from a 3.6.

01:02:21   I gave it a 2.

01:02:23   For me, the issue is I just,

01:02:26   the hardware of the Apple TV, I feel like,

01:02:29   is leaving so many things on the table

01:02:33   and they're just doing anything with it.

01:02:34   I also think, similarly for tvOS,

01:02:37   there are improvements to tvOS,

01:02:39   but I feel like with every improvement,

01:02:42   Apple also finds a way to just buy,

01:02:44   a lot of improvements to the TV app, I should say,

01:02:47   specifically, but every improvement to the TV app

01:02:50   comes with another thing where they're just trying

01:02:52   to make you look at Apple TV+ content, right?

01:02:55   So like, oh, here are these tabs.

01:02:57   And by the way, now we're just going to put you

01:02:59   on the TV+ tab a lot, rather than your home tabs.

01:03:03   Okay, but there are some features that are called

01:03:06   like continuity camera and stuff like that,

01:03:07   and it's hopefully building for something

01:03:10   like we were talking about mentioned earlier in the draft,

01:03:12   like a home part of a screen or something like that,

01:03:14   but I feel like Apple TV just kind of sits there

01:03:20   not doing much and over time,

01:03:22   it's just getting older and older and crickier

01:03:24   as time goes on.

01:03:25   - So my primary entertainment portal is the Apple TV.

01:03:31   - Same. - That's what I use.

01:03:32   I don't have a DVR, I don't have anything like that anymore.

01:03:34   It's all apps on Apple TV and tvOS.

01:03:37   And so if I'm following my arguments from earlier,

01:03:41   and I think having tried over the years,

01:03:44   including every so often I buy an Amazon thing

01:03:48   or a Roku thing, and I think Apple's is the best.

01:03:52   I really do.

01:03:54   I think it's the best.

01:03:55   I think that having the good hardware that's expensive,

01:03:57   that we complain about its price,

01:03:58   but it also means that it's more responsive and functional

01:04:01   in a lot of ways than the other hardware is.

01:04:03   So under that, I should give it a higher score,

01:04:07   but I'm also going to give it a two because I agree,

01:04:09   I don't like the direction that Apple TV and tvOS is going in.

01:04:12   I think they desperately need to reconceive the difference

01:04:16   or eliminate the difference between the home screen

01:04:19   and the TV app.

01:04:20   I hate that they have taken a user hostile approach

01:04:24   to content where they really have decided

01:04:27   they want to get in your way with Apple TV content

01:04:30   instead of your own up next queue.

01:04:31   I hate that they share the blame, I think,

01:04:36   in not being able to get Netflix on side.

01:04:39   There's a bunch of stuff in the OS.

01:04:45   I'll even ding them for their new feature.

01:04:47   Support for video conferencing using continuity camera is great.

01:04:51   There needs to be an accessory

01:04:52   so I don't have to cart out my phone

01:04:54   and put it on my TV every time I want to talk to somebody

01:04:56   on Apple TV.

01:04:57   There needs to be a continuity camera from someone,

01:05:01   Apple or a partner, and there's nothing.

01:05:05   And I hate it.

01:05:06   And they eliminated the port on the back of the Apple TV,

01:05:09   which would be perfect to plug in a USB camera.

01:05:12   So you can't use that.

01:05:14   It's just very frustrating.

01:05:15   So even when they give, they kind of take away.

01:05:17   I just think it is simultaneously the best one of these

01:05:22   out there and also not great and going in the wrong direction.

01:05:26   There's promise, right?

01:05:27   That's the thing that's frustrating

01:05:29   because it's so good.

01:05:30   There is promise, but the promise a lot of the time

01:05:32   is unrealized in the Apple TV,

01:05:35   which is a shame.

01:05:36   And a lot of it comes down to very similar things

01:05:38   of the rules that Apple puts in place for developers.

01:05:43   And she said, they do share in the Netflix thing.

01:05:45   Just give Netflix what they want.

01:05:47   Netflix is television.

01:05:49   They should be, I want Netflix content in the TV app

01:05:54   because of Apple and Netflix not being able to work out,

01:05:58   I feel like I don't get enough value

01:06:01   from my Netflix subscription because I forget to look.

01:06:05   Agreed, same, absolutely the same.

01:06:07   Very frustrating.

01:06:09   And again, also just the insistence of pushing down

01:06:14   my content in order for them to promote their own content.

01:06:18   And I pay for Apple TV Plus and I'm aware that there's a tab,

01:06:23   but like the fact that they have these huge ads for things

01:06:27   and then below it is the actual content of what I'm watching

01:06:31   that I want to get to, it's so frustrating.

01:06:34   And I get what they're doing,

01:06:36   but their priorities are wrong.

01:06:39   Their priorities are messed up.

01:06:40   And I get the idea that, well, we need to expose things

01:06:42   to people who don't know what to watch.

01:06:43   Okay, but I know what to watch.

01:06:45   I know what I wanna watch.

01:06:46   And there's no way for me to say, show me what I wanna watch

01:06:50   because that's what I care about.

01:06:53   I mean, it's very frustrating.

01:06:55   So they need to, they are, I rely on it all the time.

01:06:59   That's why I know all the flaws about it.

01:07:01   I'm gonna mark them down

01:07:03   because I'm disappointed that they aren't doing a better job

01:07:06   with the thing that I use every day.

01:07:07   - So I think two sides of the same coin these days.

01:07:11   Services, there's a 3.3 down from a 3.8.

01:07:15   I gave it a three.

01:07:17   Now this is interesting 'cause basically my thing

01:07:22   about services is Apple TV Plus,

01:07:24   the content is the best for me around there.

01:07:27   Like original programming,

01:07:29   I think Apple has the best original programming right now.

01:07:32   Like Slow Horses, For All Mankind, Shrinking,

01:07:36   three of my favorite shows last year.

01:07:38   Absolutely fantastic.

01:07:40   - Last season of Ted Lasso.

01:07:42   We're just finishing Criminal Records.

01:07:44   Silo was really good.

01:07:45   Like Foundation was really good.

01:07:47   Like there's so much there.

01:07:49   Yeah, absolutely.

01:07:50   - But for me, outside of TV Plus,

01:07:53   I just find it harder and harder to think

01:07:56   and judge the services.

01:07:58   Like there's so many and I don't really feel

01:08:02   like I'm necessarily getting,

01:08:04   I don't feel like I'm getting good value, you know,

01:08:07   from my Apple One bundle, but I pay it and I use it.

01:08:11   But I don't really get the sense of like,

01:08:14   this is worth it for me.

01:08:16   - No, I don't use News Plus.

01:08:18   I find the News app still very frustrating

01:08:21   and full of sources that are terrible.

01:08:23   And many people commented in the report card

01:08:26   about how you can block a source,

01:08:27   but it's still there.

01:08:28   It just shows that it's there but blocked.

01:08:31   It's like, that's not what the, hmm.

01:08:33   And like News and News should work better

01:08:38   and then News Plus should work even better.

01:08:39   It should, it goes back to what I was saying

01:08:41   about the TV app.

01:08:42   It feels like I'm being told what to see.

01:08:44   And the quality of the content is poor

01:08:48   and there's lots of crappy ads.

01:08:50   I think they conceived the product wrong.

01:08:52   I think they conceived the product in a way

01:08:55   that required them to let publishers insert

01:08:57   their garbage ads in it.

01:08:59   And they've got a lot of really bad blogs

01:09:01   that just rewrite other, right?

01:09:03   It's all the problems of the web with content.

01:09:05   And instead of it being like a place

01:09:07   where the good content lives,

01:09:08   it's just the crappy content aggregated by Apple.

01:09:11   So News Plus isn't that great.

01:09:13   Fitness Plus is good.

01:09:14   I don't use it as much.

01:09:15   Lauren uses it a lot.

01:09:16   So, you know, and I think they do a good job with fitness.

01:09:19   The, I wanted to make an iCloud complaint.

01:09:23   I actually have started to use iCloud more.

01:09:26   I started syncing desktop and documents

01:09:27   because I've got more computers

01:09:29   that I'm using in different contexts now.

01:09:31   But like even there,

01:09:33   what I discovered is there were a bunch of utilities

01:09:36   that I have that are like right click on a file.

01:09:39   Like I do that a lot with services,

01:09:41   right click on a file.

01:09:42   And it turns out that a lot of Apple's Mac APIs

01:09:49   differentiate between whether something is in the cloud

01:09:53   or on your local system.

01:09:54   So when I went from my desktop is on my local system

01:09:59   to my desktop isn't a synced iCloud desktop,

01:10:02   a bunch of stuff just stopped working.

01:10:05   And that's on Apple because it's Apple

01:10:08   who's providing the compatibility for iCloud.

01:10:11   So even when I try to embrace iCloud,

01:10:14   I get frustrated by it.

01:10:15   So I don't know, I agree with you.

01:10:17   I don't really know how to judge this.

01:10:19   TV Plus is a standout, so three,

01:10:25   but there are other places where I'm just really disappointed.

01:10:29   And they raised the price of the bundles,

01:10:31   which is a point.

01:10:31   Sometimes I think I need to actually go back and decide

01:10:35   is the Apple One bundle actually still making sense for me

01:10:39   or would I be better off dumping a bunch of the ancillary parts

01:10:42   and could I save money by dumping them?

01:10:46   - Next up is HomeKit and Home Automation,

01:10:50   which is a 2.8 up from 2.7.

01:10:54   Did you give a score for services by the way?

01:10:57   - I think I said three,

01:10:59   just because I don't know what to give it otherwise.

01:11:01   - And that's how I feel about HomeKit and Home Automation.

01:11:03   I just gave it a three.

01:11:04   It's just like, I don't have anything to say on this.

01:11:07   - Oh, I do.

01:11:08   - Okay, go for it.

01:11:09   - One, I'm going to give it the lowest rating.

01:11:15   - Wow.

01:11:15   - The matter transition has been bad.

01:11:17   A bunch of my items still show up as like,

01:11:22   they're ones that are taken off the network

01:11:23   that you can't get rid of.

01:11:25   They're ones that suddenly just are like inactive

01:11:27   or can't connect and then they come back.

01:11:29   There's a lot of instability.

01:11:31   There are positives.

01:11:32   I've been using HomeKit Secure Video

01:11:35   for a couple of cameras.

01:11:36   That's actually part of the Apple One iCloud Plus

01:11:40   kind of bundle that I get some camera connections

01:11:44   and that's been nice.

01:11:46   But like, I am frustrated by HomeKit and Home Automation

01:11:51   because things don't seem, the Home app is bad.

01:11:55   The Home app needs a complete rethink.

01:11:57   There are all these extra Home apps that are in the App Store

01:12:00   that do stuff that the Home app doesn't do with HomeKit,

01:12:03   which is bananas.

01:12:05   The automation isn't as good as it should be.

01:12:07   I just, I feel like this is an area where Apple said,

01:12:11   oh no, we're going to be, we're going to embrace the Home

01:12:13   and then there's just nothing happening there.

01:12:16   Very frustrated by it.

01:12:18   I think that they're doing,

01:12:19   this is one of those areas where it feels almost abandoned

01:12:22   and I'm tired of being patient and saying,

01:12:24   well, they're working on it.

01:12:25   Matter's spinning up.

01:12:26   It's like, no, no, they dropped the ball.

01:12:29   - I actually agree with you.

01:12:31   I have retroactively changed mine to a one two.

01:12:35   - Okay, thank you.

01:12:35   Thank you, come with me, join me.

01:12:38   And we talk more generally about their home strategy,

01:12:40   which is not quite the same, but it's close enough.

01:12:43   What's their home strategy?

01:12:44   They, you know, revised the Home pods

01:12:47   and they still have that Apple TV,

01:12:49   which we complained about a little bit,

01:12:51   but like there's so much opportunity in the Home category

01:12:56   and they've done almost nothing and it's very frustrating.

01:12:59   - Hardware reliability is a 4.6 up from a 4.5.

01:13:06   I gave it a five.

01:13:07   I'm very happy with the quality of the hardware

01:13:10   from Apple in this past year.

01:13:11   I have no issues.

01:13:13   - Agreed, five.

01:13:14   - And I feel like it's been a while

01:13:16   since we've had like a gate,

01:13:18   like get those keyboards out of there

01:13:21   and oh, there's always a gate.

01:13:23   There's always a, oh, when I get a new iPhone,

01:13:25   my iPhone runs hot a little bit.

01:13:26   Okay, fine, yeah, sure.

01:13:28   - I mean, one that I think we can take seriously,

01:13:31   to be honest, like, you know, that was a thing.

01:13:35   Yes, people found that their phones were hot,

01:13:37   but phones could always get hot and they fixed it.

01:13:40   And it like wasn't like an issue issue, I think.

01:13:42   - No.

01:13:43   - Software quality is a 3.6 up from a 3.4.

01:13:49   I gave it a four.

01:13:50   Again, like I feel like we're not having these issues.

01:13:54   There are things I don't like about the software,

01:13:57   but I don't feel like the software is broken.

01:13:59   - Yeah, I think I'm going to say three,

01:14:01   but I feel similar to you.

01:14:04   The idea that what I like about Apple's software right now

01:14:08   is that I don't feel like there's some horrible pain

01:14:12   that I'm going through somewhere.

01:14:14   I don't feel like that.

01:14:16   I do feel like Apple's software in general,

01:14:20   including their apps and their operating systems,

01:14:24   could really stand more attention on quality,

01:14:30   attention on fixing bugs, attention on polish,

01:14:34   attention to existing software and features

01:14:37   that have been left by the side of the road

01:14:39   and could probably do with a little bit

01:14:40   of a dusting off and updating.

01:14:43   I feel like, and I understand why maybe

01:14:47   they're not doing that right now

01:14:48   'cause they just launch Vision Pro and all of that.

01:14:50   But like, I feel like we talk about like doing

01:14:52   a snow leopard year, a mountain lion year,

01:14:55   like a lot about like maybe they could do that.

01:14:59   And I think maybe they could do that for a long time.

01:15:03   There are very, I mean, they're always gonna add

01:15:05   a thing here and there, but what I would really like

01:15:08   inside of Apple is Apple providing a little more incentive

01:15:12   to its developers to have a certain amount of time

01:15:15   that they can spend just making everything

01:15:17   that's already shipped better.

01:15:19   Because I think the danger when you're Apple

01:15:21   and you get in this shipping new features mode

01:15:24   is you spend all your money on the new features,

01:15:26   all your time on the new features,

01:15:28   and your systems are littered with old new features

01:15:32   that just sit there.

01:15:35   And several people mentioned in the survey

01:15:39   that screen time is a good example.

01:15:41   Screen time is a system feature that shipped broken

01:15:46   and is essentially never been fixed.

01:15:47   And it's broken, the numbers aren't reliable.

01:15:51   People have just given up on it.

01:15:53   - Sometimes I get 24 hours a day for seven days a week

01:15:57   'cause something got stuck in Safari.

01:15:58   That's my favorite one.

01:15:59   - Yeah, and I mean, that's maybe an outlier of an example,

01:16:04   but it's a great example in the sense

01:16:05   that that was a new feature they talked up

01:16:07   and it didn't really work right.

01:16:09   And that's it, like that's the end of the story.

01:16:12   And that's why I feel like this isn't more

01:16:14   about like a snow leopard year.

01:16:15   I kinda want a snow leopard mentality in the software group

01:16:19   that I know they're gonna have to push forward new features

01:16:22   and I know they've got new operating systems,

01:16:24   but I would really like it if they got

01:16:28   a little less ambitious, honestly,

01:16:30   with some of their features year to year

01:16:32   and cultivated a more of a culture

01:16:35   of rewarding people for glowing up existing stuff,

01:16:42   because a lot of this stuff is dusty

01:16:45   and dingy and needs a glow up.

01:16:47   - Developer relations, a three up from 2.8.

01:16:53   I gave it a three and basically for me,

01:16:57   this is always one of my lowest scoring categories

01:17:01   for reasons that I don't think listeners of the show

01:17:03   would be surprised about.

01:17:04   And also this, I mean, this was just bear in mind,

01:17:08   this is the 2023 report card, right?

01:17:10   So it doesn't include what we've been talking about in 2024.

01:17:14   - Right.

01:17:15   - But I gave it a three this year,

01:17:16   which I actually think is one of the better schools

01:17:18   I could give because I thought that WWDC was really good.

01:17:23   I think that they did the best they could of what they had.

01:17:27   I saw a lot of developers very happy, enjoying themselves.

01:17:30   Like, and I think that they did, during that time,

01:17:34   I think they did a good job to get developers excited

01:17:36   for VisionOS.

01:17:37   And I think that the labs that they've done

01:17:41   were very good too.

01:17:42   Again, like very similar sentiment, it seems,

01:17:45   from a lot of the community.

01:17:46   But there were also a lot of developers

01:17:48   that were frustrated about a lot of things in VisionOS,

01:17:50   like the dev kits that never been materialized

01:17:53   for many and stuff like that.

01:17:54   But I do think that for where Apple is right now,

01:17:59   in my opinion, to score a three out of five

01:18:01   for developer relations would suggest that 2023

01:18:04   was a pretty good year for them.

01:18:06   - Yeah, I'm gonna say three as well.

01:18:08   I'm tempted to say one because of everything.

01:18:11   But the fact is, I think, and I know this is looking

01:18:13   into 2024, which we're not technically allowed to do,

01:18:16   but you can see with the Vision Pro apps

01:18:19   that like, eh, there's still enthusiasm

01:18:22   for new Apple platforms out there.

01:18:24   Maybe not from bigger players as quickly as the indies,

01:18:27   but there's enthusiasm and there are a lot of,

01:18:29   I bought a lot of apps on Vision Pro in the last two weeks.

01:18:33   The other thing I would say is it's all about

01:18:37   who the developer is.

01:18:39   I think Apple's relationship with a lot of bigger developers

01:18:43   is fraught because they're taking 30%

01:18:46   because they have rules about how you have to format

01:18:50   your logins and how you use the app store.

01:18:53   And like, I get it.

01:18:55   But I always come back to the fact that most of the,

01:18:59   like we talk about the 30%, but the fact is most developers

01:19:02   don't pay 30% anymore, they pay 15%.

01:19:04   - For whether they're in the program

01:19:08   or they're on like a subscription or something.

01:19:10   - Or the second year of a subscription, either way, right?

01:19:13   So it's really the bigger developers

01:19:16   who have more fraught relationships.

01:19:18   And I know that there are complaints

01:19:19   among indie developers and they need

01:19:21   to do better documentation and there are things about the,

01:19:24   like there are always gonna be issues.

01:19:26   I feel like we're not in a situation where developers

01:19:29   are all out there with torches and pitchforks right now.

01:19:34   And when I, the reason this category exists

01:19:35   is 'cause when I started the Report Card, they were.

01:19:37   The torches were lit when I started the Report Card.

01:19:41   And I think that Apple has gotten better

01:19:44   and that the deal is better and that they have mitigated

01:19:47   a lot of it, even though there is all, I would say,

01:19:50   always going to be frustration with the way

01:19:52   Apple treats developers.

01:19:54   If Apple treated every developer like they treat

01:19:57   like Basecamp and Hay, right?

01:20:04   If they treated them the same as they do Epic,

01:20:06   well, sure, it would be a one.

01:20:10   But there are also a lot of positive stories

01:20:12   about people doing good work and using Swift and Swift UI.

01:20:15   And again, could those be better?

01:20:17   Sure, so I'm gonna throw it in the middle.

01:20:20   I think we so often dwell on the negative,

01:20:22   but I do see a lot of positive too.

01:20:23   And so I think I'd just have to come up

01:20:25   with a default three here.

01:20:27   - Okay, I feel like as well, developers,

01:20:29   indie developers in our circle, our community,

01:20:33   it seems like by and large these days,

01:20:37   they are disappointed at the things going on

01:20:40   at wider scale, but their individual experience

01:20:43   seems to be better.

01:20:44   - It seems to be okay, yeah.

01:20:46   - You know, like I think about, let me think,

01:20:47   let's talk about our friend Casey Liss.

01:20:49   We love talking about Casey.

01:20:51   So Casey is frustrated about things like documentation

01:20:55   and maybe some of the stuff that happened with Vision.

01:20:58   But at the same time,

01:20:59   CoreSheet just got an Editor's Choice Award.

01:21:01   So he as an individual developer

01:21:05   is getting a nice experience, right?

01:21:08   Like that is then paying attention

01:21:10   to some of the quality apps that exist on the platform.

01:21:13   So, or like I think about Underscore.

01:21:16   Underscore, when we talk, he has glowingly positive things

01:21:20   to say about Apple and his experiences with them,

01:21:23   because he kind of does what they want, I think.

01:21:27   And in doing that, he has a better experience

01:21:30   than people who maybe want something different.

01:21:33   So I think that there are individual,

01:21:39   like macro or micro experiences that people have.

01:21:43   And I think that the micro experiences

01:21:45   are actually getting better over time,

01:21:46   but you can't avoid the macro,

01:21:49   which actually brings the song quite nicely

01:21:52   to environmental, social, and societal impact.

01:21:55   - Yes.

01:21:56   - This scored a 3.8 this year, up from a 3.4.

01:22:00   I think the reason it went up is the reason I gave it a four,

01:22:03   which was the carbon neutral stuff.

01:22:05   I think this is a huge deal.

01:22:07   - Right.

01:22:07   Hey, Mother Nature, several people pointed out

01:22:09   that when Mother Nature is in your promo video,

01:22:12   you're doing pretty good.

01:22:13   - You're doing pretty good.

01:22:14   - And so like for me, the carbon neutral stuff

01:22:17   was a big jump and the commitments they're making

01:22:20   and actually shipping products today

01:22:23   that are carbon neutral for their lifetime is very bold.

01:22:27   And I think is helping them set a new path

01:22:30   for what the kind of the torch should be.

01:22:32   But I can't get, to me today, it is too complicated

01:22:38   to give a full score to Apple,

01:22:42   because a company of this size,

01:22:44   I don't know if I can call them a good for the world anymore.

01:22:48   Like it is just too big and they're doing too many things

01:22:51   and they're working on political stages.

01:22:53   You know, like I just, there's too much going on

01:22:57   that I don't know about that I feel like I can say like,

01:23:00   oh yeah, top marks, you know?

01:23:02   - Whatever issue you care about will also influence.

01:23:05   The one you care about the most will influence your feeling.

01:23:07   Look, so when I started this, I forget what,

01:23:11   there was some, it's changed every year.

01:23:14   There's some issue involving Apple.

01:23:16   And I think in the end, it is the greatest Rorschach test.

01:23:20   It really is, everybody's gonna score differently.

01:23:22   The reason it's so vague on one level

01:23:24   is I just kinda wanna get, like Apple always says

01:23:27   they wanna be a force for positivity in the world, right?

01:23:31   They wanna leave the world better than they found it.

01:23:33   That's what they say.

01:23:34   And this category is sort of like, how are they doing?

01:23:37   How do you think they're doing?

01:23:38   And we can't know.

01:23:40   And I think you're right, they're so huge,

01:23:41   it's actually very hard.

01:23:42   I'll say four, maybe three, but I'll say four,

01:23:51   it doesn't matter.

01:23:52   But what I wanted to say is several people pointed this out

01:23:55   and I think that it is the best way to look at this

01:23:57   on a broad scale, which is,

01:23:59   Apple did the carbon neutral products thing.

01:24:02   They had the mother nature video,

01:24:03   which I thought was funny.

01:24:05   And it's very easy to point at them and say,

01:24:07   yeah, but your carbon neutral's got a lot of offsets,

01:24:09   which are just tree planting, which is just a rife with fraud

01:24:13   and not really like planting a tree

01:24:14   where there was already gonna be a tree planted

01:24:17   doesn't actually offset anything.

01:24:18   And like, okay, I'm gonna guess that Apple's tree planting

01:24:22   is probably of a better quality than the lowest,

01:24:25   but still we can have that argument.

01:24:27   And the mother nature thing, you can be like,

01:24:29   come on, I don't like that and I don't like what it says

01:24:33   'cause they're really a big corporation.

01:24:34   And I'll give you that too.

01:24:35   But what I will say is Apple's carbon neutral commitments

01:24:39   are valuable if for no other reason

01:24:43   than they put all of their other competitors

01:24:46   and other companies in the world to shame.

01:24:49   And it makes, by having a company,

01:24:53   the size and visibility of Apple

01:24:55   make those carbon neutral commitments,

01:24:56   it makes every other corporation have to answer the question

01:25:02   of what's their commitment.

01:25:04   And then you start to see commitments like,

01:25:06   I forget what the company is, is it Honda?

01:25:09   Somebody was like, we're gonna be carbon neutral

01:25:11   or no, it was an airline, American airline.

01:25:13   I was like, we're gonna be carbon neutral by 2050.

01:25:16   I'm like 2050?

01:25:18   And I don't believe them, but 2050.

01:25:21   So I think Apple deserves a lot of credit for trying

01:25:28   in public to live up to its commitment

01:25:32   and making the commitment.

01:25:35   There are lots of other issues here.

01:25:37   Apple's involvement in China depends

01:25:40   on how you feel about China.

01:25:41   - Union busting?

01:25:42   - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

01:25:44   That came up in the comments,

01:25:45   their relationship with employees

01:25:47   who are trying to unionize.

01:25:48   We can talk about their work from home policy

01:25:51   being rescinded.

01:25:52   There are lots of things that we could talk about here.

01:25:56   It's complicated, like you said.

01:25:57   But I do think that they, at some high level,

01:26:01   are trying to do good in the world,

01:26:04   even though they are also, and we should never forget it,

01:26:08   a publicly held profit-making corporation.

01:26:10   That is what they are.

01:26:11   They are not a charity to make the world a better place.

01:26:13   So I think in the context of being

01:26:16   a publicly held profit-making giant corporation,

01:26:19   I think that they're a force for positivity

01:26:22   among their ilk, right?

01:26:26   Among their kind.

01:26:27   - You've gotta adjust your expectations accordingly, right?

01:26:30   You can't judge them as a non-profit

01:26:34   as you would a non-profit, 'cause they're not there.

01:26:36   - But it means you can go to Google or Facebook

01:26:38   or a car company or an airline and say,

01:26:41   well, this is what Apple's doing.

01:26:42   - Samsung. - What are you doing?

01:26:43   - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:26:44   - You know, why aren't you doing what Apple's doing?

01:26:46   Why can't you do this? - And I'm sure

01:26:47   those companies hate that Apple is bringing this up,

01:26:49   'cause then they have to talk about it, right?

01:26:52   And I think that is in Apple's credit,

01:26:54   even though we should never forget.

01:26:55   They're not a charity.

01:26:56   They're here to make a lot of money.

01:26:57   Never forget that.

01:26:59   But like, you know, for me,

01:27:01   they get this boost from the carbon neutral thing

01:27:03   this one time, like you've done it, great.

01:27:07   Now this is just what I expect from you.

01:27:09   - Yeah. - And so next year,

01:27:11   we go back, we reset the clock again.

01:27:14   - Mm-hmm. - So that's the scorecard.

01:27:17   There is so much good stuff in there.

01:27:18   There are, there's a good,

01:27:22   Quinn Nelson makes a very good jab at me.

01:27:24   Yeah, I caught a stray from Quinn,

01:27:26   so you can go check that one out over at sixcolors.com,

01:27:30   where you can get the report card.

01:27:31   It's always a good time to sit down,

01:27:33   cup a coffee and sort of just scroll through

01:27:35   and have a good time with what people have got to say.

01:27:38   This episode is brought to you by Ladder.

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01:29:12   Our thanks to Ladder for their support of this show

01:29:15   and Relay FM.

01:29:17   It is time for some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:29:21   First question comes from Darren who asks,

01:29:27   are the Ask Upgrade lasers produced live each episode

01:29:31   by Jason or is it a recording clip?

01:29:33   If it is live, he's very consistent.

01:29:36   Live, live every time, live every time.

01:29:42   Can you imagine if that was a clip?

01:29:43   No, no, they're live, they're just all handcrafted lasers.

01:29:48   That would be the logical thing to do, right?

01:29:50   But no, why do a clip?

01:29:52   Then we just get a laser sound effect

01:29:53   and it would sound professional

01:29:55   and that's not what we're here for.

01:29:56   No, we're here for the live lasers from Jason.

01:29:59   Chris says, you called the Apple Vision Pro

01:30:04   an iPad on my face.

01:30:05   When thinking about how to make a cheaper product

01:30:08   in this category, what do you think about the possibility

01:30:11   of an Apple Vision TV, a product focused on entertainment

01:30:14   and not general computing?

01:30:16   Here's my take on this.

01:30:19   I've been thinking about this question

01:30:20   over the last couple of weeks.

01:30:21   I think what this is getting to is the idea

01:30:24   that it would be a cheaper product, right?

01:30:27   Because it was just more focused on entertainment.

01:30:29   But I think the problem is a lot of the expensive products

01:30:32   and parts of this product are the best for entertainment,

01:30:35   high quality displays, high quality audio.

01:30:38   Like I think these are some of the components

01:30:40   that are the most expensive and difficult to make

01:30:42   and they are the ones in my opinion

01:30:44   that are most needed for entertainment.

01:30:47   I watched some of Avatar today, by the way.

01:30:49   I just watched I Wanted to Experience It.

01:30:50   I think I like it, but it's weird, right?

01:30:53   Like it's a thing.

01:30:55   It is weird.

01:30:55   It looks like a video game is what it looks like.

01:30:57   Yeah, it does.

01:30:58   It looks like a video game.

01:30:59   It does.

01:31:00   Because it's all animated and it's running at what,

01:31:02   you know, to me feels like 60 frames per second.

01:31:05   Yeah, it might be 48, but yeah.

01:31:08   Like it has that vibe of like, oh, there's a lot of motion going on here.

01:31:11   Yeah.

01:31:11   Yeah, and it's in 3D.

01:31:12   It looks fantastic.

01:31:14   I need to watch it.

01:31:14   Yeah, although then sometimes there's a human child in the shot

01:31:17   and you're like, wait a second, this isn't all...

01:31:19   What are you doing here, human child?

01:31:20   How did you get in there?

01:31:22   It's very strange.

01:31:23   Yeah, I agree.

01:31:26   The challenge here is that the expense,

01:31:28   the thing that makes this a good entertainment product now

01:31:30   is the stuff that's expensive.

01:31:32   And look, in the long run, I think we already see it

01:31:36   with like the X real glasses that Federico bought

01:31:39   that he's going to sell on eBay.

01:31:40   There are entertainment devices out there

01:31:44   that are just like glasses you wear

01:31:47   that have really nice screens in front of them.

01:31:49   And I imagine that those products will continue to exist.

01:31:54   I think if Apple finds that there's a niche

01:31:56   that they can fill, they will try.

01:31:58   But at this point they need to make this product

01:32:01   and it costs 3,500.

01:32:03   And I will also say like you can watch, there aren't stores

01:32:06   and there need to be, but like on the Quest,

01:32:08   you can watch a 3D movie and it looks fine.

01:32:11   It doesn't look great.

01:32:12   It doesn't look like it does on the Vision Pro,

01:32:13   but it looks fine.

01:32:14   So I think that there are gonna be products like this

01:32:18   that are focused more on...

01:32:19   I mean, entertainment includes games by the way,

01:32:22   but it also means things like watching movies

01:32:24   and all of that.

01:32:25   But the challenge is that getting the services tied in.

01:32:27   Apple has the advantage of having its whole platform

01:32:30   and app developers who have their own platforms

01:32:32   like Disney that can bring them over.

01:32:34   So I don't know, I think maybe in the long run,

01:32:37   if there's a niche that can be filled,

01:32:39   they will try to fill it.

01:32:39   But right now, just like an iPad, right?

01:32:42   An iPad can be an entertainment device,

01:32:43   but it can also be all those other things.

01:32:45   And it's not, if somebody is just watching movies,

01:32:47   they don't need to buy an iPad.

01:32:48   They could buy just like an Amazon tablet

01:32:50   and they'd be fine.

01:32:51   Rob asks, if Apple is already offloading the battery

01:32:55   to a separate device for the Vision Pro,

01:32:58   would you trade some of the size or weight

01:33:00   of the headset itself if they put some of the computing

01:33:03   in an external pack?

01:33:05   Or do you think they should shift some of that

01:33:07   to the backstrap to help balance the device?

01:33:09   So my belief is that one of the reasons the stuff

01:33:16   is on the device is because they want the latency

01:33:18   to be as low as possible.

01:33:20   And the reason that they had the latency,

01:33:22   which is very good, like I think Quinn Nelson again

01:33:26   has like a video of him like throwing stuff up in the air

01:33:29   and catching it while he's wearing it.

01:33:31   And somebody has a video, is it MKBHD?

01:33:34   Somebody's got a video playing ping pong.

01:33:35   - Yeah, it's MKBHD.

01:33:36   - In the thing, right?

01:33:39   And like you got to have low latency to do that.

01:33:41   And the speed of light is a limiter.

01:33:44   It's fast, but it's a limiter.

01:33:45   And so if you've got all your chips right there,

01:33:47   right where the cameras are and right where the displays are,

01:33:51   I think you got to do that.

01:33:52   I know that historically there was like,

01:33:54   remember that there was a rumor that like,

01:33:56   they wanted it to be like a box.

01:33:57   - I looked this up today. - Beaming in.

01:34:00   - When I was putting this together,

01:34:01   there was something in my brain about this.

01:34:04   And I found a Bloomberg report from June, 2020,

01:34:11   basically saying Mike Rockwell's team

01:34:16   originally worked on the idea of a,

01:34:18   what they called a stationary hub,

01:34:21   which in prototype form resembled a small Mac

01:34:24   that will connect to the headset of a wireless signal.

01:34:26   But Johnny Ive said that they should not do this

01:34:29   and they needed to work on something

01:34:31   that was more integrated.

01:34:32   And I think once again, Johnny was right,

01:34:35   because if you think about like people complaining

01:34:40   about the clarity of the Mac,

01:34:43   this would have been just that,

01:34:45   everything streaming to the device.

01:34:47   And I think if they would have done that,

01:34:49   they would have had an Apple Watch 1 situation on their hands

01:34:53   where people would have been universally unhappy

01:34:56   with the quality of the product.

01:34:57   Look, there are a lot of stories over the last week,

01:35:00   apparently everyone in the world

01:35:02   is returning their Vision Pro.

01:35:03   I just feel like this is a story

01:35:05   that's good to write right now.

01:35:07   I know people are returning them, but come on.

01:35:10   - Well, first off, people return Apple products

01:35:13   after two weeks a lot.

01:35:14   And this was an expensive product

01:35:16   that people wanted to try out, but didn't want to buy.

01:35:18   I don't think it says anything about the product.

01:35:20   What I would say is that,

01:35:21   look at the reviews of this product.

01:35:22   I thought, Mike, I know this is a little bit of a sidebar,

01:35:25   but every Vision Pro thing was so tightly controlled.

01:35:29   We got those demos.

01:35:30   I got a second demo.

01:35:31   People were getting the multiple demos

01:35:33   and I really thought like, oh man,

01:35:37   this is gonna be a disaster.

01:35:39   It's gonna be like, not necessarily a disaster,

01:35:41   but like the reviews are gonna be rough.

01:35:44   They're gonna be rough

01:35:45   because Apple is hiding stuff from us.

01:35:46   And when we actually get our hands on it,

01:35:48   it's gonna be like, ah, no,

01:35:50   that they were hiding all of these bad things about it.

01:35:54   And the reviews honestly are vastly more positive

01:35:58   than I thought they would be

01:36:00   because they talk about the potential

01:36:01   and then about how weird it is and all that is true,

01:36:05   but I really thought that they would be meaner

01:36:07   and more negative and how this is a disaster

01:36:09   and that didn't happen.

01:36:10   So I think they're kind of validated

01:36:15   about their decisions here.

01:36:17   And I think they made the right decisions.

01:36:25   Bottom line, I think they made the right decisions

01:36:27   to ship it and the reception has been better

01:36:32   than I expected and people are gonna return it

01:36:34   'cause it's a weird product and it's expensive.

01:36:36   So some people wanna try it and don't wanna keep it.

01:36:38   And I don't think that that's actually particularly notable.

01:36:41   I'll also note, and I'm not gonna single anybody out here

01:36:45   'cause there were multiple sources like this.

01:36:47   Anytime you see a story that talks about something

01:36:50   like people returning Vision Pro

01:36:52   and refers to the people in it as the faithful

01:36:55   or the fans, that tells you something

01:37:00   about how that person views that story

01:37:03   and the people who are doing it.

01:37:04   It is creating a narrative and like, yeah,

01:37:08   every time it's fans or faithful, I cry a little inside.

01:37:17   And Scott asks, everyone keeps saying

01:37:19   that the non-pro version of the Apple Vision Pro

01:37:21   will presumably be called the Apple Vision.

01:37:23   Take the pro away and you're left with that name.

01:37:25   But given how some reviews have emphasized

01:37:28   the weight of the device, do you think it's possible

01:37:30   that they'll call the cheaper and presumably lighter version

01:37:33   Apple Vision Air?

01:37:34   MacBooks have set a precedent

01:37:36   for only having Air or Pro models.

01:37:38   There's no MacBook about modifier.

01:37:40   Could Apple Vision follow that route?

01:37:42   Totally.

01:37:43   I love this.

01:37:44   I hadn't thought of this before.

01:37:45   I think that this makes so much sense to me.

01:37:47   I mentioned it earlier.

01:37:49   I said Apple Vision Air earlier.

01:37:51   And one of the reasons actually was that I've gotten this,

01:37:53   maybe even from Scott, this comment of like,

01:37:55   well, what about Air?

01:37:56   And yeah, I think it's possible that they'll do that,

01:37:59   that there won't be an adjective-less,

01:38:01   you know, like an Apple Vision and Apple Vision Pro,

01:38:04   like an iPhone, that it might be Apple Vision Air

01:38:06   and Apple Vision Pro.

01:38:07   And it's like, it's lighter and it has less stuff in it.

01:38:10   And, you know, you can wear it.

01:38:11   And like, it's possible that they'll do that.

01:38:14   It feels like the only product in recent memory

01:38:16   that I can think of is the Apple Watch, right?

01:38:18   Where they ended up,

01:38:19   because at first they all had names

01:38:21   and then they've kind of standardized on that.

01:38:25   Yeah, it is possible that what this will ultimately be called

01:38:28   is that there'll be an Apple Vision Pro 2

01:38:31   or Apple Vision 2 Pro,

01:38:33   and then there'll be an Apple Vision 3

01:38:35   and an Apple Vision 3 Pro, like the iPhone.

01:38:39   That's another way they could go.

01:38:40   But I like the idea of having it just be Air.

01:38:43   That's, that's not bad.

01:38:44   Studio, go to Apple Vision Studio.

01:38:48   Oh man, let's do it.

01:38:49   Let's bring it back.

01:38:49   It's big.

01:38:50   Apple Vision Studio.

01:38:51   Put it in there, a hundred weeks.

01:38:52   We'll find out.

01:38:53   If you would like to send in a question of your own

01:38:56   for a future episode, just go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:38:59   You can send in your ask upgrade questions,

01:39:01   your snow talk questions, your feedback,

01:39:04   and your follow-up.

01:39:05   You can check out Jason's work at sixcolors.com

01:39:07   where you should look at the report card.

01:39:09   Actually, before I continue, this is episode 500.

01:39:13   I would like to thank everybody for listening to this show.

01:39:16   For as long as you have listened,

01:39:17   this show is a joy to do.

01:39:20   I will speak for myself.

01:39:21   - I agree.

01:39:22   - But it is a absolute professional achievement of mine.

01:39:26   I think upgrade has made me better at all of my work

01:39:28   and it has afforded me some incredible experiences,

01:39:33   things that I'd always wished could happen.

01:39:35   And so I'm thankful for this show.

01:39:37   I'm thankful for the audience.

01:39:38   I'm thankful for you, Jason

01:39:40   and everybody that works on the show now,

01:39:42   which there is just a growing team of people

01:39:45   from our audio editor, Jim, to our video editor, Chip,

01:39:49   to our social media manager, Jamie,

01:39:52   and everyone else in between.

01:39:54   I absolutely love doing this show.

01:39:58   It is a professional and personal honor.

01:40:01   So thank you.

01:40:02   - Same.

01:40:03   Thank you to all for listening.

01:40:05   You don't have to listen to all 500.

01:40:06   Don't let John Siracusa bully you into it,

01:40:09   but thank you for being here for as many as you wanted.

01:40:12   - But if you jump on whenever you like,

01:40:14   maybe you don't understand why there's lasers.

01:40:16   And honestly, at this point, I don't know either.

01:40:18   - I don't know.

01:40:19   Hey, remember verticals?

01:40:20   - But now we got rid of verticals.

01:40:24   We just have loads of chapters.

01:40:25   By the way, Rumor Roundup will return at some point.

01:40:30   - Will return.

01:40:30   - I was going to do it this week,

01:40:31   but then you published a scorecard.

01:40:33   I was like, oh well, Rumor Roundup will return.

01:40:36   It's like James Bond, you know, like at the end of a book.

01:40:38   - It is, it is.

01:40:39   - If you want to find video versions of the show,

01:40:42   we publish a full video version to YouTube.

01:40:45   We are @upgraderelay on YouTube.

01:40:47   We're also @upgraderelay on TikTok and Instagram,

01:40:51   where you can find video clips of the show,

01:40:53   which are very fun.

01:40:53   You can find some good stuff there too

01:40:56   to engage with the show afterwards.

01:40:58   Sometimes there are things posted on there

01:41:00   that are not actually in the episode, little bonuses.

01:41:02   - Not in the show.

01:41:03   It's true, last week there was a whole, like,

01:41:05   you threatened to do a thing

01:41:08   and then later you did the thing

01:41:09   and the whole thing is in there.

01:41:10   It's hilarious.

01:41:11   - So you can go find that over on our social pages.

01:41:14   Jason is on Mastodon, he's Jason L.

01:41:16   I'm Mike on Mastodon 2 and on Threads, same names.

01:41:20   Thank you to our members, the supporters of Upgrade Plus.

01:41:22   We appreciate you even a little bit more

01:41:26   because you help support the show.

01:41:27   Go to getupgradeplus.com.

01:41:29   Today we're going to talk about the additional things

01:41:32   on our lists that we didn't pick for the draft,

01:41:35   the episode 600 draft.

01:41:37   Thank you to Ladder and DeleteMe and Vitaly

01:41:41   for their support of this week's episode.

01:41:42   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:41:44   We'll be back next week.

01:41:45   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:41:48   - Goodbye, everybody.

01:41:49   And most especially goodbye, Mike.

01:41:51   (upbeat music)

01:41:56   (upbeat music)