489: The Birds Chirp in the Black Void


00:00:00   [INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]

00:00:02   From Real Efem, this is Connected, episode 489.

00:00:11   Today's show is brought to you by Fitbot and ExpressVPN.

00:00:14   I'm one of your co-hosts, Federico Vittitchie, and it's my pleasure to introduce to the show,

00:00:18   Mr. Stephen Hackett. Hello, Stephen.

00:00:20   Hello, Federico. How are you?

00:00:22   How are you? Well, I'm good.

00:00:24   Jinx! Jinx, I'm good. How are you? You all too good?

00:00:27   [LAUGHTER]

00:00:28   Good. A little under the weather, but good.

00:00:30   And we're joined by that voice you heard, Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:35   Hello. Jinx is the worst thing to do on a podcast.

00:00:39   It's true. I know, right?

00:00:40   Right? Now that we have an editor,

00:00:41   I have to make a note to leave it in. It's not crosstalk, it's funny.

00:00:44   Yeah. Well, Jim knows that.

00:00:46   Jim knows that funny crosstalk can exist. Yeah, definitely.

00:00:50   You know? Definitely.

00:00:53   Okay. So we're here. We're recording this on Friday.

00:00:57   Just be warned. It's already a bit weird.

00:01:00   I should also have a disclaimer up front,

00:01:02   given that this is a weird episode because it's recorded on Friday.

00:01:06   I'm also wearing my Vision Pro right now, and I'm using the virtual Mac display mode.

00:01:10   It's a weird experience that I'm experiencing right now.

00:01:15   Why?

00:01:16   So, well, for example, I mean, besides the fact that I have a bunch of windows around me,

00:01:23   there's also the fact that I made the Mac display giant and I pushed...

00:01:29   It's almost like I pushed it into the wall in front of me.

00:01:33   So my sense of depth right now is all kinds of screwed up.

00:01:38   And it's almost like my brain cannot process that.

00:01:42   It's almost like my wall is now a tunnel and the display is into the wall.

00:01:47   It's weird, but I'm choosing to go with it because I'm embracing the weirdness of this moment.

00:01:54   Having heard the way that you designed and decorated your office,

00:01:58   the idea of embedding a large monitor into the wall

00:02:01   seems like something that you would have enjoyed.

00:02:02   So I'm all for it.

00:02:04   I was getting ready to ask,

00:02:06   how long until you change up your office so you have more Z-axis behind your desk?

00:02:12   So I literally had this conversation with Sylvia yesterday.

00:02:16   Environments exist.

00:02:19   You don't need to make the room bigger.

00:02:21   They don't for him. He's been having trouble with that.

00:02:24   We'll get to that later.

00:02:25   No, I don't want to make the room bigger.

00:02:26   I was just saying, "Hey, now that I have this vision problem, I'm kind of wondering,

00:02:29   do I need this giant desk and the studio display on my wall

00:02:34   if I can actually make my "virtual desk" much bigger and have a much bigger display?

00:02:40   Do I need this table here?

00:02:43   I probably don't.

00:02:43   I just need space for a keyboard and a microphone.

00:02:46   And I don't even need the studio display anymore.

00:02:49   This is doable.

00:02:50   Besides the sense of depth that I just mentioned.

00:02:52   And maybe there's a way to get used to this.

00:02:56   But I don't need all of this stuff anymore.

00:03:00   I mean, this is nice.

00:03:01   Anyway, that's my disclaimer.

00:03:02   I really would like to recommend/insist that you do not make any changes.

00:03:09   For now.

00:03:10   Right now.

00:03:11   For now.

00:03:11   Just give it a little bit more time.

00:03:13   Yeah, give it just a tiny, tiny bit more time before you rip the studio display off your wall.

00:03:20   Look, I resisted the temptation of decapitating my MacBook Air.

00:03:26   So I have some resistance left in me for these kinds of temptations.

00:03:31   So that's the disclaimer up front.

00:03:35   Now we can do follow up.

00:03:36   Some.

00:03:37   Well, Mike, do you have any disclaimers?

00:03:39   I went to the gym today before we recorded.

00:03:45   Are you sweaty right now?

00:03:47   No, my body hurts.

00:03:49   But my point is I don't usually record podcasts on Friday for that reason.

00:03:54   Right.

00:03:55   So I don't know what my energy output is going to be like over the course of today's episode.

00:04:01   Do you feel like you want to lie down for a little bit?

00:04:03   I actually do kind of feel like I want to lie down.

00:04:05   Too bad I'm not reading any flexi rules this week, or you could.

00:04:08   I know.

00:04:09   You can lie down.

00:04:10   We can do follow up.

00:04:11   I've had a very busy couple of days.

00:04:13   And like with weird sleeping times, which is why we are recording on a different day today.

00:04:18   Because I met three time Formula One world champion Max Verstappen.

00:04:23   I'm having a really good February, by the way.

00:04:26   You really are.

00:04:26   I can just say that.

00:04:27   Like in two weeks, I shook hands with Tim Cook and Max Verstappen.

00:04:32   This is like, it's all kind of coming up Mike over here.

00:04:34   All right.

00:04:35   Like in this year of our Lord.

00:04:37   Now you know I got to ask, who has the better handshake?

00:04:40   Max Verstappen.

00:04:43   I mean, look, Tim Cook, right?

00:04:46   Tim Cook is a strong guy.

00:04:48   Max Verstappen is like a world class all time athlete.

00:04:52   Like that just inherently good handshake.

00:04:54   Although I will say while Max had a good, my handshake with Tim was better.

00:05:00   Like with Max, I had one of those kind of like, I didn't fully get to commit to the

00:05:04   handshake and he only got like half of my hand, you know?

00:05:07   Not good.

00:05:09   But he's got, he's got those hands, you know, grabbing the steering wheel.

00:05:12   He didn't.

00:05:12   He can, it doesn't matter to him, you know, he can take one finger and it's like,

00:05:17   uh, okay.

00:05:21   So that that's been established.

00:05:22   Max Verstappen has a better handshake than Tim Cook.

00:05:25   That's your disclaimer.

00:05:27   So now we can do follow up.

00:05:28   We sure can.

00:05:29   Follow up.

00:05:30   Mustachary wrote in.

00:05:33   That was really bad.

00:05:34   Thank you.

00:05:34   Yeah, I know.

00:05:35   I don't sound good.

00:05:36   Mustachary wrote in, does Federico still use the Xreal Air 2 Pros?

00:05:43   I bought it after hearing him rave about it.

00:05:46   And was really pleased with it myself as something I could afford more easily than the Vision

00:05:51   Pro.

00:05:52   And they go on to say how the, uh, ultra is were introduced the day after.

00:05:57   And anyways, what's going on Federico?

00:05:59   No, no, I'm sorry.

00:06:01   Mustachary, but I'm not using them anymore.

00:06:03   Friendship ended with Xreal.

00:06:05   Friendship ended with Xreal.

00:06:07   I know that they released, uh, uh, updates to the, to the Xreal Air line.

00:06:12   They have the Air Air 2 Ultra, um, but, but I didn't check them out.

00:06:18   I was just, uh, that was a good exercise for the Vision Pro to sort of put myself in a

00:06:23   mindset of like, what is it like to have a virtual display in front of you and get work

00:06:27   done in that display.

00:06:28   But now I'm just using the Vision Pro because it's such a much better experience and it's

00:06:33   wireless in the sense that I don't need to have a USB cable going into my MacBook Air

00:06:37   or my iPad Pro.

00:06:38   I can just, you know, stream, uh, Mac OS to, to my Vision Pro.

00:06:42   So now, um, uh, they are in a drawer somewhere and I'll put them up for sale at some point

00:06:48   in the near future.

00:06:49   Yeah.

00:06:51   Who couldn't see that coming, you know?

00:06:54   I mean, but, but I think I said...

00:06:56   I know it was part of the point.

00:06:58   Yeah.

00:06:58   I'm just doing this as a, as an exercise to get ready for the review.

00:07:02   I feel like you were pretty clear about that at the time, right?

00:07:05   It was like, I want to kind of get ready and I think it helped inform some stuff for you.

00:07:10   Yeah, I think it did.

00:07:11   I think it did.

00:07:11   It was a, it was an interesting exercise.

00:07:13   Mitch wrote in to say, because we referenced this last time, that Federico had some photos

00:07:21   of Tim Cook, but we didn't put any of these images in the show notes.

00:07:25   So I put some blinks in the show notes.

00:07:27   One is to the article that Federico wrote about the March 9, 2015 event, which was Federico's

00:07:34   first Apple event that he went to, which includes one of my favorite photos of all time, which

00:07:38   is just Tim and Federico, like in silhouette, which was, that was taken by Apple, that photo.

00:07:44   Yes.

00:07:45   Yes.

00:07:45   So that is a fantastic photo.

00:07:48   And then there's also a selfie on what looks like a 1930s film camera now, which is posted

00:07:57   to Twitter, which I've also included in the show notes.

00:08:00   That would have been like an iPhone 6, I guess?

00:08:02   It was, yeah, the 6, because it was March 2015.

00:08:06   So it was the 6, I was not a member of the Plus Club yet.

00:08:12   So that was the 6.

00:08:14   And it was a selfie with an iPhone 6 in a dark room right after, like five minutes after

00:08:19   the Apple event wrapped up and the press was already in the hands-on area.

00:08:23   So that's when the selfie was taken.

00:08:24   Yeah.

00:08:25   So there you go.

00:08:27   They're there and available if people want to read, want to go look at them.

00:08:31   Mm-hmm.

00:08:31   Okay.

00:08:33   Mike, can you tell us about the changes for video reactions?

00:08:37   Yeah, so we've been talking about this a bunch on and off, right?

00:08:41   Over the last few months, we had that, one of my favorite pieces of follow-up all the

00:08:45   time, which was the video reactions during the funeral presentation.

00:08:49   Yeah.

00:08:49   Who could forget?

00:08:50   Well, in iOS 17.4, there's a couple of things going on with the video reactions feature.

00:08:57   So this is where you make some kind of hand reaction and some kind of effect goes off.

00:09:01   Well, the one which I think is very good is that there is a new API that developers can

00:09:06   take advantage of to disable them in their own applications.

00:09:10   So this is great.

00:09:11   So if you make like a therapy app, like we spoke about, you will be able to disable these

00:09:17   reactions as part of your application, which is just helpful, right?

00:09:22   Like it saves people with issues.

00:09:24   One thing I'm not 100% sure about, maybe just because I don't understand enough about how

00:09:28   this stuff exactly works is if it's like straight up disabled disabled, or if it's like turned

00:09:34   off by default in that app and then you can turn it on.

00:09:36   Like, I don't know the answer to that question.

00:09:38   But then there is a second thing.

00:09:40   So that was first found.

00:09:42   The first thing I'm talking about is found by MacRumors.

00:09:44   The second thing was found by 9to5Mac, where there is a system message that is referring

00:09:51   for people to turn on reactions so that they are inferring that potentially in 17.4 and

00:09:59   onwards for new users, the reactions feature may be disabled by default.

00:10:05   I am wondering if maybe these two things are the same thing and that this is a message

00:10:10   for apps where it is disabled.

00:10:12   But we don't know yet.

00:10:13   This has been like happening over the case of the 17.4 and Mac OS 14.4 beta cycle.

00:10:19   But it at least seems that for whatever reason, at this point, Apple has decided to make some

00:10:24   changes and some potential changes to the way that this feature is working.

00:10:28   Which more, more, I like, my favorite thing here is like, you know, I like that they actually

00:10:34   do enable it by default.

00:10:36   We spoke about that because I think it's like a fun thing to discover.

00:10:39   But I do like the idea of certain applications having it off by default, which I think would

00:10:46   be beneficial.

00:10:48   I don't, I can't think of the scenario in which a teletherapy app needs that on by default

00:10:54   and that anyone would get upset that it wasn't.

00:10:56   You know what I mean?

00:10:57   Yeah.

00:10:57   I had an emotional roller coaster.

00:11:01   That lasted 35 seconds.

00:11:03   Yeah, where it was announced that Job Simulator is coming to the Apple Vision Pro.

00:11:09   And I thought that I got my risky because I knew that the company called Alchemy Labs

00:11:14   was acquired.

00:11:15   I thought by Meta, but they were actually bought by Google.

00:11:18   So there was a, there was a moment where I thought that I had achieved my, uh, my risky.

00:11:26   I still think I'm going to, but I just haven't yet.

00:11:28   But I do want to say there are two things to me here.

00:11:31   One, I think it's great that this app is coming to Vision Pro.

00:11:35   Like I'm actually really pleased about this because Job Simulator is one of the most fun

00:11:41   VR experiences you can have.

00:11:43   I think the thing that is funny to me about this is I can't believe that this game is

00:11:49   still being put onto new platforms.

00:11:52   It just keeps appearing over time.

00:11:55   It's like, it's like almost like a zombie.

00:11:57   Like it just keeps appearing.

00:11:58   I would expect there's probably new things in the game too, but yeah, I'm actually really

00:12:03   excited about this.

00:12:03   I think this is fantastic that this is going to be, oh, Job Simulator and Vacation Simulator,

00:12:10   which is their follow-up, which in my opinion, while still fun, it's not as delightful as

00:12:14   Job Simulator is.

00:12:14   Have you two, Federica, I'm pretty sure you have, but Stephen, have you ever played Job

00:12:19   Simulator?

00:12:20   I have never played Job Simulator.

00:12:21   Oh, you're going to have a great time.

00:12:23   I was just thinking, didn't we play it when we were at Facebook like six years ago?

00:12:27   No, I don't, I don't remember.

00:12:29   I don't remember.

00:12:31   I think that was just a demo.

00:12:32   Oh, I've played it.

00:12:34   Mike, I played it.

00:12:35   Remember when you and I visited that maker space north of Memphis when you were here

00:12:39   one time?

00:12:40   We played it there, I think.

00:12:41   Okay.

00:12:42   Because I mean, I've played this so many times.

00:12:45   I've definitely played it.

00:12:46   VR on Quest, like, but yeah, I will try again here because I'm excited to see how it's

00:12:52   going to work.

00:12:53   I mean, and it will be using hand tracking because you're essentially just manipulating

00:12:57   things with hands.

00:12:58   But yeah, I'm really excited for this, for whenever this appears.

00:13:02   Like basically it was spotted by UploadVR on the Unity website where they are talking

00:13:09   about something happening in a couple of weeks where there's like a presentation from Alchemy

00:13:13   Studios talking about how they are bringing their games to Apple Vision Pro and how they've

00:13:19   done that as part of like using Unity's toolkit.

00:13:22   So don't know when it's coming, but I'm excited that it is because these are the types

00:13:27   of game experiences that should exist and could exist.

00:13:30   And I want to see more of them because I think, I think people will really dig it when it

00:13:34   when it does land on Vision Pro.

00:13:37   Nice, I gotta check it out.

00:13:38   If you want something, I guess, kind of like this, Federico urged us to play a little bit

00:13:46   of Black Box, which is a game that I've had but haven't tried.

00:13:50   And I played like 10 minutes before we recorded today.

00:13:52   Yeah, you should try that game.

00:13:55   Yeah, it was, all I'm gonna say is that it made me feel like I felt when I tried the

00:14:04   Vision Pro the first time in June, like I played for like 15 minutes.

00:14:08   And when I took off the headset, I just felt like I was thinking, what did I just experience?

00:14:14   Very wondrous.

00:14:15   It's also one of the games, like games/apps that Apple done a lot of, has done a lot of

00:14:21   promotion of for this reason, I think, because it is quite special, including some stuff

00:14:27   on the developer website talking about it.

00:14:30   Yeah, highly recommended and make sure you have a clear your surroundings is what I'm

00:14:35   going to say when you want to play this game because you're going to need to use your whole

00:14:38   body and move around and use your hands and spin in place, all kinds of things you got

00:14:44   to do.

00:14:44   Really good, really, really good fun.

00:14:46   I'm looking forward to playing more of it, to be honest, because I did like the first

00:14:49   three little mini games and yeah, Black Box on iOS is like a really weird experience,

00:14:56   but a great one.

00:14:57   Mike, how's it going with your American Apple ID situation?

00:15:01   So far, it's fine.

00:15:04   What I don't like about this process is I'm having to try and keep the mental load of

00:15:10   making sure I'm keeping like an eye on the things that I'm buying, right?

00:15:13   Because I've been using, I used a gift card, which I haven't topped up yet, but I think

00:15:17   we're going to have to soon.

00:15:18   But like I'm starting subscriptions for things that I want to try out.

00:15:21   Like I have to remember this, so like I have like a recurring Todoist reminder right now

00:15:28   to like make sure that I'm keeping enough balance on the account and stuff like that.

00:15:32   And I also, the more I download, the more I pay for, the more I download, the more I'm

00:15:38   like, whenever this comes to the UK, I need to do all this again.

00:15:42   But it's going fine.

00:15:44   Like it's going fine because once Vision launches in the UK, I am going to be switching

00:15:51   my account back to my regular account.

00:15:53   Oh yeah.

00:15:54   Yeah, definitely.

00:15:54   Makes sense.

00:15:55   Because like there's stuff that I haven't subscribed to yet.

00:15:58   Like I haven't subscribed to TV+ because I really don't want to do that, but I have

00:16:02   subscribed to Apple Music because I wanted to listen to music.

00:16:07   And so it's like, I tried a few things.

00:16:09   Like I tried YouTube music, like just listening to music on YouTube as a thing to try.

00:16:14   But I found that ultimately quite frustrating as an experience.

00:16:20   So I was like, all right.

00:16:20   And then I also wanted to try out spatial audio.

00:16:23   And so I ended up going back to Apple Music.

00:16:27   So now I have like just like a singular Apple Music trial going on and then it's going

00:16:31   to turn into a paid account for a bit.

00:16:33   So I don't know.

00:16:34   One last bit of follow up.

00:16:37   We want to point people to episode 370 of App Stories where Federico, you and Jon talk

00:16:44   about your Apple Vision Pros worldwide adventure to get to you.

00:16:50   It is an incredible story.

00:16:53   I absolutely love this episode.

00:16:56   Thank you.

00:16:57   Poor Jon.

00:16:57   Yeah, I know, right?

00:16:59   I know, right?

00:17:00   The things that man does for me are just extraordinary.

00:17:04   I feel like I have a sense for how you were during that time.

00:17:08   And I can imagine that was quite stressful for Jon.

00:17:11   I tried to keep calm, I think.

00:17:15   You know, the thing is, though, I think because we're all such close friends, like we can

00:17:19   intuit your feeling, even if you're not expressing it.

00:17:22   Right.

00:17:23   So like, you may not have been expressing because I was feeling it.

00:17:26   I was feeling like stressed about how I thought you were feeling, especially when I didn't

00:17:31   really hear from you for two days, you know?

00:17:33   Yeah.

00:17:33   Yeah, you were trying to disconnect yourself, which I understand what you would do.

00:17:37   But then I have this like, I had this feeling of like, I was worried about you that you

00:17:42   were going to be getting upset, right?

00:17:43   Yep.

00:17:44   By the end, I was getting a little upset.

00:17:48   But I also knew that like, yeah, there was a moment when I thought I'm never going to

00:17:52   get this thing.

00:17:52   Right, exactly.

00:17:54   Now, these are the feelings that I feel like I know you're having, like, like, I can't

00:17:59   forget it.

00:18:00   I'm just gonna go move to a cabin in the woods or whatever.

00:18:03   And these are feelings that I have.

00:18:05   I get like this too, in these kinds of scenarios.

00:18:08   And so I can imagine it was quite stressful for poor OTJ trying to like secure all of

00:18:13   this for you.

00:18:14   And the man got the work done, you know?

00:18:17   Yeah, he did, as always.

00:18:19   So yeah, that was a bit of an adventure.

00:18:20   Lots of paperwork, lots of money spent on taxes and shipping and all that sort of stuff.

00:18:27   But hey, I have a Vision Pro in Italy.

00:18:31   And it's mine and Apple didn't mess up my order like they did for poor James Thompson,

00:18:36   unfortunately.

00:18:37   Yeah, James is having like a whole different scenario, which I'll just give the cliff

00:18:41   notes of, which is he had a friend get a Vision Pro for him.

00:18:45   And they brought it to James.

00:18:49   James has it now.

00:18:51   And what appears to have happened is when they put the package together at the store,

00:18:57   which is a wild thing that they are doing with this, which is kind of like the Apple

00:19:00   Watch, but still it seems like, I don't know, like odd.

00:19:03   Like your order goes to the store and then they get the light seal you need.

00:19:08   And then they pick a Vision Pro and put it in the box.

00:19:11   But actually, when you order it, your Vision Pro has a serial number that is tied to your

00:19:16   account, like to your order account, I should say.

00:19:19   Yeah.

00:19:20   Well, James didn't get the Vision Pro he ordered.

00:19:23   It was a different storage size and a different serial number.

00:19:26   And he's now trying to resolve that.

00:19:28   Now, of course, this wouldn't be so complicated if James lived in America and bought a store,

00:19:35   right?

00:19:35   Because he could just go back to the store and they could resolve it.

00:19:38   But because of the weird things that we're doing as non-Americans, he's kind of in a

00:19:45   bit of a strange spot right now.

00:19:46   Yeah.

00:19:47   So best of luck to James.

00:19:49   For real, that seems impossible to fix.

00:19:52   Big salutes for James Thompson right now.

00:19:54   F's in chat for James.

00:19:57   All right.

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00:21:41   part of my fitness journey over the last couple of years. It gave me the basics and the confidence

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00:22:33   Once again that is fitbod.me/connected for 25% off your membership.

00:22:37   Our thanks to Fitbod for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:22:44   I have a new segment though. I need help naming.

00:22:47   Okay.

00:22:48   We have a couple of iPhone cases and accessories to talk about. They're both made out of leather.

00:22:54   Okay.

00:22:55   I was thinking leather daddies but that sounds weird.

00:22:59   We could do that.

00:22:59   I mean we may attract an audience that is going to be unhappy with the content that they're receiving.

00:23:05   Could be.

00:23:06   But we can do that if you want to. I would prefer to just refer to this as like iPhone

00:23:12   cases you know or something like that.

00:23:14   Yeah but you gotta use the numbers you know.

00:23:16   The numbers of a chapter?

00:23:19   Well it also depends on how many times I write leather daddy in the show description.

00:23:24   That's a really good point. That is a really really good point.

00:23:27   Should we just start SEO-ing the show descriptions now?

00:23:30   Yeah. Just gonna stuff the keywords.

00:23:32   Two iPhone cases that we wanted to talk about this week. One is a Kickstarter and the other is from

00:23:40   Nomad Goods. The one on Kickstarter is called The Open Case. I wrote about it.

00:23:47   Our friend Matt Pansarino wrote about it on his new site The Obsessor.

00:23:50   Which if you have not subscribed to like what are you doing? Go subscribe to it. It's awesome.

00:23:54   This case is designed for those of us who have found ourselves in the iPhone

00:24:00   case plus wallet lifestyle. Which I used to not be in that

00:24:04   camp but I have now in that camp of as of the last couple years.

00:24:08   And it's a leather iPhone case with the back cut out of it.

00:24:12   And so the wallet attaches to your phone and it's kind of nestled in the back of the case.

00:24:17   So it doesn't come off as easily and it makes it all thinner.

00:24:21   It's super clever. I have a prototype that John, the guy from the Kickstarter,

00:24:26   sent me and even the prototype is really nice. And it's it's a good idea.

00:24:34   I can't believe no one. I have never come across this before. Maybe other people have done it.

00:24:38   But it's super smart.

00:24:39   Yeah I have one too. John sent one to me too. Like I'm not a case person anymore.

00:24:45   But this is the most interesting case that I've seen in a long time.

00:24:49   Because what I like about it. So you know it is a very strange case to look at.

00:24:54   Because it is a case with a big square cut out. Like a big rectangle.

00:24:59   And like that's really good for if you use the wallet. But I'm not necessarily a wallet person.

00:25:05   But what I like about this is it's a whole system of stuff.

00:25:08   So I have a wallet. An open case wallet.

00:25:12   John's also making his own wallet as well as working with Apple's wallet.

00:25:16   It's a very similar wallet. But there's also like a popsocket version.

00:25:21   Or you can take it out and like he's also making a bunch of other stuff too.

00:25:27   Like a case charger and things like that.

00:25:29   And because it's MagSafe it will work whether you have one of the little spaces on it or not.

00:25:35   I just think it's a very clever way of looking at what MagSafe can do.

00:25:40   And then finding different products for it.

00:25:42   Because I know personally I wouldn't want to use a wallet with how I use my phone.

00:25:47   Like the idea of the wallet potentially getting detached.

00:25:51   Like freaks me out when I'm taking it in and out of my pocket.

00:25:54   But this would stop that from happening.

00:25:56   And I can see that is where like the idea for this product comes from.

00:26:00   But what I actually really appreciate with what John has done is then to take this and expand it.

00:26:04   And like there are different options available.

00:26:07   Yeah John sent it to me and Stephen without any requests of talking about it.

00:26:13   He just wanted my feedback.

00:26:15   But I actually do think this is something that connected listeners might be keen on checking out.

00:26:19   So I wanted to mention it on the show.

00:26:21   The case is also really well made and it has actual buttons for everything.

00:26:25   There's not just cut out.

00:26:26   So I also really like that about it.

00:26:28   It's the way to go.

00:26:29   I really like the modularity approach here.

00:26:32   Like you have different options.

00:26:34   I think it's really well done.

00:26:34   It's a cool idea.

00:26:35   Yeah I don't.

00:26:36   Well also I don't use.

00:26:38   I still don't have a case on my phone mic.

00:26:41   It's still a no case lifestyle for me.

00:26:44   And I think I don't want to go back at this point.

00:26:48   But yeah cool project.

00:26:51   And I will say as well like without any of the.

00:26:56   Like you say you have the wallet.

00:26:57   You take the wallet out.

00:26:57   You should have the big square.

00:26:59   It actually makes a large iPhone really comfortable to hold.

00:27:02   Because you have something inherently to rest your finger on.

00:27:04   Like which is the edge of the cut out.

00:27:07   And with this case on like it works with all of the chargers that I use.

00:27:12   Like the cube one that I use.

00:27:16   Like it fits with that.

00:27:17   Like it is a very clever product.

00:27:19   I mean of course this is like any of those things right.

00:27:21   Where we spoke about this like the peak design and stuff like that.

00:27:25   Like if you decide to go all in on this.

00:27:27   If you were a person that upgrades your phone every year.

00:27:29   Like you're going to have to wait for the case to come every year.

00:27:31   Which I do think like is an inherent issue with these systems.

00:27:35   Like we spoke about the peak design one.

00:27:38   That I think you both are getting into at one point.

00:27:41   And I know that you had like the Pitaka one too Federico.

00:27:44   Pitaka yes I used to love Pitaka yes.

00:27:47   Yeah and so you kind of get yourself in that situation if you are an every year iPhone person.

00:27:52   But not everybody is.

00:27:53   I expect the majority.

00:27:55   No I expect a larger portion of our audiences than the general audience.

00:27:59   So like that's just always something to consider with stuff like this.

00:28:02   And it's more about being an early iPhone person.

00:28:05   You know if you if you wait till the spring you have more options.

00:28:09   And that's where the Nomad product comes in.

00:28:11   So this actually came up in the Relay Discord for members.

00:28:14   This is the Nomad magnetic leather back.

00:28:17   And it reminds me of 12 South.

00:28:20   I think it was 12 South.

00:28:21   That sounded like this a long long time ago.

00:28:24   I had it on my 4s or 5 or something.

00:28:27   This is not a case.

00:28:30   It's just a back piece.

00:28:32   And Nomads connects with MagSafe.

00:28:35   But then it also has three little micro suction pads that help it stick.

00:28:40   And so the back of your phone is leather and grippy.

00:28:44   But you don't have a case around the sides.

00:28:47   And so I've actually been using this the last couple of days.

00:28:50   I ordered one when it was announced.

00:28:52   And it's pretty awesome.

00:28:55   It's it's kind of the best of both worlds.

00:28:58   I like the caseless feel.

00:29:01   But I really don't like sitting my naked phone down like on the counter.

00:29:04   Like I kind of like having something between it.

00:29:07   And this is that.

00:29:10   So why though, why don't you like to do that?

00:29:14   So we can just all be honest here.

00:29:16   It's Friday.

00:29:16   We're all with friends.

00:29:18   Everyone's honest on Friday.

00:29:21   Everyone has a waterproof Bluetooth speaker in their shower, right?

00:29:26   No.

00:29:27   Listen to podcasts, listen to music.

00:29:28   No, I don't.

00:29:30   Okay.

00:29:30   I don't.

00:29:31   Well, I do.

00:29:32   I used to.

00:29:32   Yeah.

00:29:33   Yeah, I do.

00:29:35   And I'll start a podcast and then I'll sit my phone on like the edge of the sink, like

00:29:42   the countertop, like around the sink.

00:29:44   But I don't like my like then if my phone rings or like an alarm goes off, it's like

00:29:50   moving around on there.

00:29:51   I don't want to fall into the sink or fall off the counter.

00:29:53   And the case gives it just a little bit of grip so it stays put.

00:29:57   But there's somewhere else to put it in the bathroom.

00:29:59   Like it doesn't have if that's your only reason, just put it somewhere else.

00:30:03   This is like a shelf.

00:30:03   There's like not a lot of good options in my bathroom.

00:30:05   Put it on the floor.

00:30:06   That's a terrible idea.

00:30:08   Why?

00:30:09   I had this happen to me and I did what Mike just said.

00:30:13   I was listening to an episode of Cortex and I was cutting vegetables.

00:30:17   I was cooking and the iPhone was in portrait mode, sort of sitting like vertically.

00:30:21   And typically the case would provide some grip for the phone.

00:30:25   But without a case, at some point, I believe on Cortex, Mike just had a very loud laugh.

00:30:31   And the phone moved and it sort of just like crashed on the countertop.

00:30:37   That's the power of my laughter.

00:30:41   That's the power of your laughter.

00:30:42   I was worried for five seconds.

00:30:44   Then I checked.

00:30:45   Everything was fine.

00:30:45   I realized, well, now that I'm not using the case, I'm just going to place it down without

00:30:50   having it sit upright on the countertop.

00:30:53   I'm just going to place it somewhere else and continue listening like that.

00:30:57   And it was fine.

00:30:57   So anyways.

00:31:00   Just put the phone on the floor.

00:31:01   Yeah, don't put it on the floor.

00:31:02   This is an interesting product to me, this leather back.

00:31:05   Because I'm not sure that I get it.

00:31:08   Does it really feel like you don't have a case on?

00:31:12   Yeah, because the rails are completely exposed.

00:31:15   It's just a hair thicker on the back.

00:31:17   The other nice thing about it is...

00:31:20   Does it provide any protection realistically?

00:31:23   If you drop this...

00:31:24   Only if you dropped it straight on its back.

00:31:27   Because the rails are exposed.

00:31:29   So if it landed on the rails, it would mess them up.

00:31:32   So it's not a really protection thing.

00:31:34   I think it's more of a grip thing.

00:31:36   But the other thing that it does is it makes the MagSafe connection stronger.

00:31:41   Like the Apple MagSafe wallet and just the naked phone is actually not that strong of

00:31:46   a connection.

00:31:46   And because you have an extra small ring of magnets in there, the force, the magnetic,

00:31:55   you know, that feels better.

00:31:57   So I'm digging it.

00:31:59   I like it.

00:31:59   I like both of these options.

00:32:00   I think they're both really interesting.

00:32:01   You should try them at the same time.

00:32:03   See what happens.

00:32:06   Your dog heard you like cases.

00:32:08   I cut a hole in your case and then put leather over the top of it.

00:32:13   Why is this topic called kitchen pod?

00:32:18   What's a kitchen pod?

00:32:20   Because it's a home pod with a screen you put in your kitchen.

00:32:24   Oh, okay.

00:32:25   Okay.

00:32:28   Yeah.

00:32:28   So this is just an update on some rumors.

00:32:32   Last last year, nine to five Mac had reported that Apple has been running TV OS on a modified

00:32:38   home pod and a modified iPad mini.

00:32:42   I guess because there was no other OS available for an iPad.

00:32:46   I don't know what else it would use to see how a new home pod with a built in display

00:32:51   would work.

00:32:52   And there is now a device called Z314 that shows up in the Iowa TV OS 17.4 beta three.

00:33:00   Mike, this is really your topic.

00:33:01   You're the TV OS guy.

00:33:03   Yeah, but you put it in.

00:33:03   Because I find it super interesting because we've talked about the usefulness.

00:33:08   We've established this.

00:33:09   I've retired as TV OS guy.

00:33:12   Yeah, he was fired.

00:33:13   The job was ripped from me and the title bestowed upon somebody else.

00:33:19   Just one of the many tech layoffs.

00:33:22   In the past.

00:33:22   Oh my God.

00:33:23   Wow.

00:33:24   I have been impacted.

00:33:27   Yes.

00:33:28   Laid off.

00:33:28   We have right sized our TV OS department.

00:33:31   What?

00:33:33   What is that?

00:33:34   Right sized?

00:33:35   You haven't heard that corporate speak?

00:33:36   No, I've never heard that before.

00:33:39   Yeah.

00:33:39   You're laying people off because you're trying to have a smaller team.

00:33:43   Right sized.

00:33:43   Is this like the sunset version of downsizing?

00:33:46   Yes.

00:33:47   Because also what's funny to me is downsizing is a corporate speak word.

00:33:50   So you don't have to say layoffs or firing or redundancies.

00:33:55   This is one layer further removed.

00:33:56   Now we've gone again.

00:33:57   So we've got, what did you say?

00:33:59   Right sizing.

00:33:59   Right sizing.

00:34:00   Man, what's the next one?

00:34:02   I don't know.

00:34:03   Perfect sizing.

00:34:04   It's Friday.

00:34:05   Wild sizing.

00:34:05   Synergy.

00:34:06   Good sizing.

00:34:07   So basically there's a few things in beta three, which would seem to suggest that there

00:34:14   is a new device called code name Z314, which is essentially an A15 bionic chip, which is

00:34:21   what it's powered by.

00:34:22   This is stuff that's been digged up from logs, which is essentially it's an iPad mini six,

00:34:27   but it's running TV OS.

00:34:29   Like there's been some changes because it's in TV OS.

00:34:31   I said it can run on that one.

00:34:32   Additionally, there are some Swift UI frameworks that have been added to HomePod firmware.

00:34:37   That's wild.

00:34:38   Which wouldn't make any sense, right?

00:34:39   That would make no sense unless there was something visual.

00:34:43   Similarly, there's a system tool called hang tracer or hang tracer D, which essentially

00:34:50   would, it is to debug unresponsive UI in an app.

00:34:54   These things don't need to exist on the HomePod as it is today.

00:34:59   So this is kind of like putting two and two together would suggest that work is continuing

00:35:06   on what seems to be some weird like amalgamation of an iPad, TV OS, and a HomePod.

00:35:16   But all those things together could make something really interesting.

00:35:21   Yeah, I kind of love the energy here.

00:35:24   Like all these things coming together in one product.

00:35:27   And the more I think about it, the more I realize this is totally something that I want.

00:35:31   And I have just a spot for it in my kitchen.

00:35:34   Therefore, I agree the name KitchenPod was accurate.

00:35:36   Steven, thank you.

00:35:37   If you were responsible for it, it's a good name.

00:35:40   What I actually think is happening here is that we're beginning to see the swallowing

00:35:45   of HomePod into TV OS.

00:35:47   Like I don't think that this product will be running what looks like, that will not

00:35:54   be running what is TV OS, if that makes sense.

00:35:59   Like I don't think that this product will be an Apple TV.

00:36:03   Like I think it will be a HomePod that runs apps and has an interface.

00:36:07   So it will look and kind of act iOS-y.

00:36:10   But I think what's happening is the HomePod is kind of is being swallowed by TV OS.

00:36:17   It's just kind of there's been a link between the two for a while.

00:36:21   But I think that's the ultimate thing that's going to occur here is it will essentially

00:36:26   just be a TV OS, which because TV OS like everything else these days is based on iPad OS.

00:36:33   So yeah, it's interesting.

00:36:35   At first I was like, why would you do TV OS, the iPad operating system?

00:36:40   It's just right there.

00:36:41   But then thinking about the use cases for this and like you want to use it as easily

00:36:48   as possible, like I agree with you, I don't think this is going to be like the TV OS interface

00:36:53   exactly.

00:36:53   But I think an interface like that with bigger touch targets than iPad OS that kind of does

00:37:03   less than iPad OS is actually a good thing for this product.

00:37:07   So I am encouraged by this direction because what do you mean?

00:37:11   You want timers, you want photos, you want media, maybe you want to watch a YouTube video,

00:37:17   right?

00:37:17   You don't need Carrot Weather or Timery or things like that necessarily on your kitchen

00:37:23   pod.

00:37:24   So at first I was really scratching my head.

00:37:26   But the more I think about it, the more I think this is probably the way to go.

00:37:30   And if it helps TV OS, like if this comes out and developers see it as like, oh, I want

00:37:37   my thing there, that's also only good for TV OS itself, I think.

00:37:42   And so I think Apple sees this as a way to kind of bring these things together in a way

00:37:48   that's beneficial for everything.

00:37:51   I find it so ironic, interesting, maybe a mix of the two, that nothing is going on in

00:38:00   iPad OS land and still iPad OS is providing the foundation for all these new platforms.

00:38:06   Yeah.

00:38:06   Almost like in a way, the best thing the iPad ever did was to spawn new platforms that are

00:38:11   not the iPad.

00:38:12   There's something definitely interesting going on there.

00:38:14   Like nothing has really happened in iPad OS for the past year and a half or so, but we

00:38:23   are witnessing the beginning of new platforms, like Vision OS is already here.

00:38:27   This Home OS thing seems very likely at this point.

00:38:30   They are based on iPad OS.

00:38:32   So as a provider for platforms, nice job iPad OS.

00:38:37   As a thing on its own, yeah, you know, not so much.

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00:40:05   So we're obviously going to talk about Vision Pro.

00:40:09   I would like to, I want to talk about Steven's excellent review, but I would like to set

00:40:14   the table here by allowing Federico to talk a little bit about his experiences because

00:40:19   last week he couldn't.

00:40:21   So Federico, what is your week and a half or so been like with the Vision Pro?

00:40:27   I am having the best dive of my life right now in terms of like my job.

00:40:32   It's like I'm living in the future, but it's not a dream.

00:40:37   It's actually here in the sense that, so to give you some practical context, I haven't

00:40:43   used the iPad Pro in two weeks at all.

00:40:46   I am going all in on the Vision Pro.

00:40:49   I just set it up for my work and I'm doing my work in it with Obsidian, working copy,

00:40:56   Safari, my iris, like all the things that I normally do, shortcuts.

00:41:02   I'm using the Vision Pro like I was using the iPad Pro before, but it's more powerful

00:41:08   because I can open more windows, because I can do more things, because it's a better

00:41:13   iPad Pro in every way.

00:41:14   It's also a different type of hardware, sure, like you got to be mindful of the battery,

00:41:18   you got to, you know, take it off every once in a while because otherwise it's bad for

00:41:23   my forehead and my eyes, but for productivity I'm finding so far, because it was based on

00:41:30   iPadOS, I was really able to hit the ground running.

00:41:33   Everything synced with iCloud, it was a familiar environment, all my shortcuts were there,

00:41:38   the apps either were available in VisionOS native mode or in iPad compatibility mode,

00:41:45   and everything was just familiar.

00:41:46   And that for me sort of felt like really going from one platform to another very similar

00:41:52   platform that, however, offered much better multitasking.

00:41:56   And so I am fully, fully on board with the idea of spatial computing, and I'm seeing

00:42:02   the benefits, because like right now I'm at my desk and I got a bunch of windows around

00:42:06   me, and I was never able to do that with an iPad or with the studio display, you know.

00:42:10   I can work in the living room and fill my room with windows in a sense that it's not

00:42:16   like this hypothetical or sort of aspirational thing to do, it's a practical thing.

00:42:20   Like I'm working on the couch with the Vision Pro and 10 windows around me, and we can get

00:42:27   to all the problems with managing windows on VisionOS, but the thing is, it's such a

00:42:31   productivity boost right now to have all that space in an environment that feels like iPadOS,

00:42:40   but taken to its extreme conclusion, it's amazing.

00:42:44   And that's not to mention then the non-work stuff.

00:42:47   So watching movies, watching YouTube, reading articles, I've been using this to...

00:42:53   I've also been using the iPad Mini when I don't want to put on the Vision Pro, but just,

00:43:00   you know, opening good links, which is available in compatibility mode on VisionOS, put it

00:43:07   in portrait and scale it so it's like a giant window on the ceiling when I'm lying in bed

00:43:13   just before bed and read articles like that, it's lovely.

00:43:17   And just this sense of the computer and your workspace are no longer limited or dictated

00:43:27   by your physical environment, but it's all contained within this object that you put

00:43:33   on your face, it's wild.

00:43:36   And I had so many moments over the past week or so where I stopped for a second to appreciate

00:43:46   what was happening and I was like, you know, this is my life now and it's kind of wild.

00:43:53   It's a triumph, like...

00:43:55   Yeah, yeah.

00:43:56   They did it, you know?

00:43:59   Like, and it's so not perfect, but I don't... look, I know it's expensive, but if you expected

00:44:08   a perfect experience, like, I'm surprised by that, you know?

00:44:12   And there's an important, I think there's an important clarification that in the discourse

00:44:19   online I haven't seen talked about as much, which is we're seeing a lot of comparisons,

00:44:28   right, between the Vision Pro and the MetaQuest 3, for example.

00:44:31   Say, "No, you can do all these things for the MetaQuest."

00:44:33   I mean, Zuck himself did a review on comparison online.

00:44:38   Mark Zuckerberg, man.

00:44:39   What a year he's had it.

00:44:40   You know what I'm saying?

00:44:41   Like, this guy, like, whoever he brought into his PR team, like, is just crushing.

00:44:50   Like, since Threads.

00:44:51   And also just totally, I'm really...

00:44:53   Look, the guy is in pretty good shape, right?

00:44:55   I mean, I mean...

00:44:56   He's an MMA fighter.

00:44:57   Yeah, he beat up Elon Musk.

00:44:58   Yeah.

00:44:59   So anyway, the point that I was trying to make is maybe the Vision Pro, I mean, obviously

00:45:07   the Vision Pro is much more expensive than the Quest 3.

00:45:09   And maybe the Vision Pro is not as accurate at some things as the MetaQuest, but there's

00:45:14   a strength that the Vision Pro has, which is you have this computer and it launches...

00:45:21   It launched with a version 1.0, lots of rough edges everywhere, but it carries this strength

00:45:31   of the existing ecosystem that Apple has.

00:45:35   The fact that I was able to log in with my iCloud account, go to the App Store, download

00:45:41   all the apps that I was already using on my iPad and on my Mac, and everything just...

00:45:47   And I was good to go for my job in 20 minutes is incredible.

00:45:52   Yeah.

00:45:53   Like, I feel like so many people, especially, you know, it's been the whole time, but it's

00:45:57   been like very increased over the last few days because of the Zuckerberg thing.

00:46:02   They're like referencing the ecosystem of the Quest, right?

00:46:05   The games and experience that it has, but it feels like it's almost like not paying

00:46:10   attention to the massive ecosystem that Apple has, which is what you're talking about, right?

00:46:15   That like, I don't need to download an app to get my Mac in the space.

00:46:22   Can you even do messaging in a meta quest?

00:46:26   I have no idea, but I bet you can't do iMessage.

00:46:29   And I know that's Apple's saying, but like, you know what I mean?

00:46:31   There are, of course, things that it can do, but there is something about if you're in

00:46:38   this ecosystem, this is the best product for you.

00:46:41   I mean, that's kind of Apple's whole thing, right?

00:46:43   It's what they do, it's what they build, but the discourse is changing again.

00:46:50   And it's frustrating to me, but I don't really think we need to get into too much today.

00:46:54   Yeah, we don't need to get into that.

00:46:55   But yeah, I'm having the best time, yeah.

00:46:57   Yeah, good.

00:46:58   Steven, I really loved your review, did a great job.

00:47:00   It's very good.

00:47:02   I love how, just how much just people have to say, you know?

00:47:06   You and Jason, right?

00:47:09   Just wrote these like massive reviews, like, which is quite rare for the both of you these

00:47:13   days, I suppose, like to write like multi-thousand word things.

00:47:16   And, you know, I understand that me and Jason would talk about it on upgrade.

00:47:19   It's so huge, like, just because it's just so much.

00:47:24   It's like, to review this thing, you have to talk about all of it.

00:47:28   And it's an entire operating system.

00:47:30   It's, as Federico knows, it's difficult to write about an entire operating system in

00:47:35   a concise manner, right?

00:47:36   Like, where do you stop?

00:47:38   Like, how far do you go?

00:47:41   But, you know, I loved about Jason's review, what you mentioned, which is like, he frames

00:47:45   it in this idea of like, let's go back to the beginning of computing.

00:47:49   Yeah.

00:47:49   But what I really enjoyed about yours was the, you know, I think a metaphor that we all

00:47:54   value quite highly, which is the carousel pitch in Mad Men.

00:48:01   Because that was such a great way of like describing the feeling of looking at media

00:48:08   in this device.

00:48:09   Like, it is a nostalgia machine, kind of unlike anything I've experienced before.

00:48:16   Like, you know, I may have said about this in cortex, but it was true.

00:48:20   Like, I was looking at photos that I'd taken two days earlier, and it felt like I was like,

00:48:26   nostalgic about that experience, which doesn't really make any sense.

00:48:29   But this, it kind of gives you a positive, I think, case of like a sensory overload in

00:48:37   using it at points, but yeah, I just thought it was a really good, a really good way of

00:48:41   kind of trying to explain how this thing feels.

00:48:45   Yeah, thank you.

00:48:46   That was a late addition to the review.

00:48:48   I wrote it over the course of two days.

00:48:50   And the original headline I think I shared with you, Mike, was weight of the future,

00:48:56   like a play on words of the aviator.

00:49:00   And my original ending is actually still in the review.

00:49:05   The line about it carries on its shoulders the weight of the future while being constrained

00:49:12   by the technology at Apple's disposal today.

00:49:14   Like, that was my sort of original through line.

00:49:17   Then the carousel thing came to mind, and it fit so well.

00:49:21   But it is, it is hard to talk about.

00:49:24   You and Jason on Upgraded, you know, y'all talked about this too, but I was 4,000 words

00:49:29   into this and hadn't talked about hardware yet.

00:49:31   And normally I talk about hardware first in these reviews because I'm a hardware person.

00:49:36   Like, I like the tangible physical aspects of computing.

00:49:41   But this platform is so big and there's so many things going on, it's like hard to talk

00:49:49   about all of it.

00:49:49   Like after the first day I was going through what I had written and what was on my outline,

00:49:54   it's like, oh gosh, I have like five other things I haven't even thought about yet that

00:49:58   I've got to talk about here.

00:50:01   But I wanted to get something out to have like a flag in the ground.

00:50:05   Like, this is what this is like in the beginning.

00:50:08   And I actually was thinking a lot about Federico's first iPad Pro review back in 2015.

00:50:17   You know, Federico, you had a review unit, didn't you?

00:50:21   Is that?

00:50:21   I did.

00:50:22   I did.

00:50:22   It was my first iPad.

00:50:24   That's right.

00:50:24   It was the first time.

00:50:26   Yeah, that's where we met in person for the first time.

00:50:28   Yeah.

00:50:28   Came to London together.

00:50:29   I remember we had to record that episode super early, like on a Sunday morning or something

00:50:33   to have it for embargo or whatever.

00:50:35   But I actually went and revisited that review while writing this one, thinking about like,

00:50:41   what does it mean to like, look at something in the beginning?

00:50:45   And obviously it's going to change, but I want something that captures what I think

00:50:49   right now.

00:50:50   And you know, I think we're all still like sorting through our thoughts and feelings

00:50:55   about this product and even we're now at the end of week two of Vision Pro being out in

00:51:01   the world.

00:51:02   Already, like our understanding of what it's good at and what apps can do and all these

00:51:09   things like that, it's already changed again, right?

00:51:11   There's more and more apps.

00:51:12   We're going to talk about some that we like, I think, here in a minute.

00:51:15   But it is evolving relatively quickly.

00:51:21   And that, I think, is exactly what Apple wants, right?

00:51:24   It plays into the strength of their ecosystem that developers and these services and everything,

00:51:31   you know, just blur the lines between our products.

00:51:34   And so, yeah, so far so good, I think, with the Vision Pro.

00:51:39   Like if we're inside baseballing for a minute, like I'm having some difficulty in like, you

00:51:45   know, you say it's week two.

00:51:46   I've used the Vision Pro for like three hours this week because maybe a little bit more

00:51:52   than that.

00:51:53   But I wasn't at my studio for two days and like I'm leaving it at my studio because it's

00:51:57   too much to take backwards and forwards every day.

00:51:59   Like I don't want to be commuting with this thing.

00:52:03   One, that just feels dangerous.

00:52:05   But like it's also it's heavy and big like in the case.

00:52:09   And I like the case.

00:52:09   I like the protection of it.

00:52:11   I like having it all in a unit, right?

00:52:13   And I can like put it away and put it away.

00:52:15   But like I've made the decision that I think the best place for it to be is at my studio

00:52:19   because when I'm treating this as a computer, that's how I think of the Vision Pro for me

00:52:27   as a more of a productivity machine, like an actual computer machine.

00:52:31   I think that is where I will find the majority of use out of it.

00:52:34   And so if I'm going to use it that way, it is best to be where I'm working, not where

00:52:38   I'm when I'm at home, where like what I'm trying to do more when I'm at home is spend

00:52:43   time with my wife and play video games.

00:52:47   The Vision Pro is not ideal for either of those things right now when I have something

00:52:53   like a Steam Deck.

00:52:53   So like, all right, I'm leaving it here at the studio.

00:52:55   But that means I have to be here, which I am most days.

00:52:59   But like it's just been a funny thing.

00:53:00   We're like, you know, we're into this week and I wasn't here for like two and a half

00:53:04   days, so I barely used it.

00:53:05   But I do think it's the right kind of I think everybody has to work out where they

00:53:11   think this product is going to live in their life.

00:53:13   And I think the work is a funny thing for me.

00:53:16   We mentioned Federico is wearing his now, which is funny because he's sitting in front

00:53:19   of a studio display.

00:53:21   But that's how I've been to like when I'm sitting at my desk and I'm getting my work

00:53:25   done, I'm sitting in front of a studio display, but I want to sit in front of my studio

00:53:30   display because then I can use my nice keyboard because then I can also bring my Mac in.

00:53:33   But I have my Mac in the middle, which is what I'm doing right now.

00:53:36   Then I have like a bunch of windows around the outside and I'm like, I have the Safari

00:53:41   open, so I have everything nice and crisp.

00:53:43   And then I have like, you know, I have messages and Slack and Todoist.

00:53:46   Although, you know, again, I will keep making this complaint, hopefully only until June.

00:53:51   The fact that I have to start everything from scratch every time is really annoying.

00:53:56   Federico, I don't know if you if you've tried this or if you have my experience of this,

00:54:00   like I've tried to set up a shortcut to at least open apps, but then you're like, have

00:54:04   you tried this?

00:54:05   No, I got I got one better for you.

00:54:08   I did this just a few minutes ago.

00:54:12   I got a notification for my RSS reader on Mac OS, and I knew that I wanted to save that

00:54:21   for later.

00:54:22   Right.

00:54:23   And I was like, I'm recording right now.

00:54:25   I want to save this for later so that I can check it out when I'm done.

00:54:28   So I opened the RSS app on the Vision Pro and I have a shortcut to save my links that

00:54:36   I want to link on Mac stories into good links and things at the same time.

00:54:41   I have this little shortcut that saves a link in two apps, so I didn't think about it.

00:54:46   I knew that was going to happen, but I didn't think about it.

00:54:48   I ran the shortcut and everything disappeared because the shortcut, like every single window

00:54:54   that I had in front of me, including my Mac virtual display, disappeared.

00:54:58   Because when you use a shortcut that has the open app action, it just launches the app

00:55:04   and it hides everything else.

00:55:06   So while recording the show, all the windows disappeared and I was left like an idiot staring

00:55:13   at a turned off studio display.

00:55:16   But I could hear you guys because obviously Mac OS was still working.

00:55:19   So I had to manually go to Control Center, disable virtual Mac display and re-enable

00:55:25   it again, and then the window appeared again.

00:55:27   It's such a strange bug.

00:55:29   I hear that it's fixed in Vision OS 1.1 Beta, but I still feel uncomfortable installing

00:55:36   a Beta.

00:55:37   This is not a Beta I would put on my device.

00:55:41   I feel like Betas on this device could be really weird, you know?

00:55:50   Like bugs in this operating system could be not good, right, I think would be my experience.

00:55:57   But if they fix that, that would help me at least because I could have a shortcut that

00:56:03   even if it just opens six apps and stacks them on top of each other, I at least have

00:56:06   all the apps open that I want and then I can Tony Stark move them around.

00:56:10   You know what I mean?

00:56:10   Like I'm just grabbing things and putting them all over the place.

00:56:13   Because sometimes I'm like, I forget the apps that I want open.

00:56:16   You know what I mean?

00:56:18   Like we'll talk about some fun apps that we're using later on, but they're for me apps

00:56:22   that I'm only using in Vision OS, so they're not like part of my muscle memory yet.

00:56:28   You know, like I know I need to do this to open, but there's like these fun little utilities

00:56:32   and I kind of forget about them.

00:56:33   And then I'm like sitting there for two hours and I have a thought and I'm like, oh,

00:56:37   I should open this app, you know?

00:56:39   Isn't it funny that the best way to see all your open apps on the Vision Pro right now

00:56:44   is the Force Quit menu?

00:56:46   Yeah, no, I had that not the other day.

00:56:47   I was like, what do I have running?

00:56:48   I still cannot believe they put that in there.

00:56:50   I'm pleased that they did, but it is, of all the things, you know what I mean?

00:56:55   Of all the things to bring to an iPad based operating system, they brought Force Quit.

00:57:03   And it's like, wow, like much respect, but that is an incredible thing.

00:57:08   Look, I do believe that WWDC, when we see Vision OS 2 presumably, there will be some

00:57:18   more window control.

00:57:21   Oh, yeah.

00:57:22   Even if it is just what I want, the bare minimum of app reboot, remember what apps I had open?

00:57:29   Yes.

00:57:29   That's kind of all I really need.

00:57:31   And then my problems are solved for me.

00:57:34   Do you all use that setting on the Mac?

00:57:36   Like reopen Windows at login?

00:57:40   I do, but it's a disaster with Stage Manager.

00:57:43   Oh, I bet it is.

00:57:44   I don't use Stage Manager anymore, so.

00:57:48   It reopens all of the applications, but it doesn't, it puts every single one of them

00:57:56   in an individual stage.

00:57:57   So instead of, you know, great, like you did like half of what I wanted.

00:58:07   Yeah.

00:58:08   There was a couple of things I liked that I wanted to mention for you.

00:58:13   We've kind of touched on this a little bit in this episode anyway, but I just think it's

00:58:15   kind of fascinating that you reference iPad as being like the actual, like, you know,

00:58:23   Apple's attempt to a post PC era device, right?

00:58:28   Like this is a post PC device and that kind of hasn't really happened maybe in the way

00:58:35   that they wanted, right?

00:58:36   Like there was definitely a timeline where Apple wanted the iPad to replace the Mac.

00:58:40   Like, I feel like we know that they were on that.

00:58:42   They changed course, I think correctly, but that seemed like a place they were going.

00:58:46   And then I had this thought, which you're kind of driving to as well, which is now we're

00:58:52   looking at Vision Pro as potentially this idea of like a spatial computing as a post

00:58:57   PC thing.

00:58:58   If that ends up being the case, the iPad kind of succeeded in a weird roundabout way.

00:59:05   Yeah.

00:59:05   This is based on iPadOS.

00:59:08   There's something to that.

00:59:10   There's a section of the review where I talk about Apple's new OS's and we're going to

00:59:17   put new and air quotes because the iPhone is what, like 17 years old or something now.

00:59:22   They are all based on like iOS, iPadOS, watchOS.

00:59:31   They're all the lineage right from the iPhone, not from the Mac.

00:59:35   And they borrowed different ideas from the Mac, but Apple was never going to put MacOS

00:59:43   frameworks on the Vision Pro, right?

00:59:47   It was always going to be based on some iOS descendant.

00:59:51   And in that regard, we live in a post PC era because the operating systems we use look

01:00:00   like operating systems designed for devices like this, not for the desktop, personal

01:00:07   computer.

01:00:08   And a huge sidebar where I don't want to get into today is like, which one is better?

01:00:14   They're just different, right?

01:00:15   For this conversation, not going there.

01:00:18   But if you look at it that way from a technology standpoint, the iPad is a huge success.

01:00:26   The iPhone, obviously, a huge success, right? That lineage of OS is a huge success.

01:00:30   Now, where it falls down a little bit, I think is around the edges where maybe the form

01:00:37   factor doesn't work for everybody or the people who do need more like.

01:00:41   The Vision Pro is basically an iPad level computer, and that's awesome if you can do

01:00:49   your work on an iPad level computer.

01:00:52   If you can't, then the post PC conversation just makes you frustrated because what you

01:00:58   need is something from before that.

01:01:00   That's where I land, but it doesn't mean these other things don't have value and aren't

01:01:05   really interesting as well.

01:01:06   So, yeah, I love the question, Mike, because in a sense, it's been a huge success.

01:01:10   I had, you know, I'd never thought of it that way, but in like where you took that of like,

01:01:16   we are actually in post PC because nobody today and into the future is going to make

01:01:24   a new consumer device that has an operating system that works like Windows or macOS.

01:01:30   You're exactly right.

01:01:31   There are new devices all the time, right? Like look at in gaming, right?

01:01:36   We have Steam Decks now that they don't run Windows and they don't run something that

01:01:42   looks like Windows. Now, you can get to like a weird subsystem where it does look like

01:01:47   a desktop operating system.

01:01:48   That's not what they necessarily want you to do.

01:01:51   It is like an escape hatch for the tinkerers, right?

01:01:54   But like, this is just where we are now, right?

01:01:56   Like all of these little, all the paradigms that we're used to on a PC, we're not going

01:02:02   to see them in other things now.

01:02:04   Like there are new versions that are created of this, and ultimately, a lot of it comes

01:02:10   down to control, right?

01:02:13   Like companies today, for good reasons and bad reasons, they want control over their

01:02:19   devices and the typical PC idea does not allow for that.

01:02:28   And so there is at least a, if they don't fully control it, they want to create an environment

01:02:34   they have control over.

01:02:35   So like using the Steam Deck again, right?

01:02:37   Like they have the ability for you to use Linux and you can install things on that device

01:02:44   and you can do some weird and wonderful things.

01:02:46   But Steam ideally want you to just use the interface they have created in Steam OS.

01:02:52   Like that, because they control that, they understand that, that's what they support.

01:02:56   And like, that's where we are now.

01:02:58   That is the world that we're in.

01:03:00   And like the idea that like some company is going to come up and be like, oh, hey, we

01:03:05   started again with a Windows mouse, like, what is it called?

01:03:09   WIMP?

01:03:10   Is that it?

01:03:11   Windows something mouse?

01:03:12   Window interface, mouse pointer, something?

01:03:14   I don't know.

01:03:14   Precision?

01:03:15   Who knows?

01:03:16   But like whatever that, that kind of window based operating system that we're used to

01:03:21   on PC and Mac.

01:03:22   Windows icon menu pointer.

01:03:24   There you go.

01:03:26   That's, we're not going to get a new one of those now, right?

01:03:29   Like that, that time is over and we're in the post PC world.

01:03:34   But what we originally thought was post PC, that's not the case because PCs don't exist.

01:03:40   And they're still predominant, but nothing new is coming along.

01:03:44   Yeah.

01:03:44   I think that's spot on.

01:03:46   And I think that the control is an issue.

01:03:49   I think consumer safety and security is obviously a huge issue, right?

01:03:54   It's Apple's whole argument in the EU, whether or not that argument is valid in that specific

01:04:00   case, again, a conversation for another day.

01:04:03   But you can do things in a traditional desktop operating system that you just can't do in

01:04:10   these new style OSs.

01:04:13   And again, that's beneficial to the masses.

01:04:17   There are some of us who that puts limitations on what we can do.

01:04:21   And Apple, to their credit, are keeping both around, right?

01:04:26   The Mac has not gone anywhere, even though the iPhone and iPad have spun off all these

01:04:30   other platforms, right, the KitchenPod OS coming later this year.

01:04:34   The Mac is still there.

01:04:37   And really interestingly, the Mac is an escape hatch for this particular product, which is

01:04:42   fascinating and how Federico is joining us today through that feature.

01:04:46   And so, yeah, so I think that the Vision Pro fits in about at the iPad level, even though

01:04:54   it borrows things from the Mac, including the Mac itself, it actually borrows the whole

01:05:00   Mac in a way through the virtual display thing.

01:05:02   Which I actually think is the best thing that it did for that device, by the way.

01:05:06   Like, just as it's there, this product is infinitely more usable because that's there.

01:05:15   Yeah, because you don't have to stop wearing it when you need to do something that's on

01:05:18   your Mac OS.

01:05:19   You can continue using it and really Mac OS becomes an app on the Vision Pro.

01:05:25   Like, I would not be able to use my Vision Pro the way I'm using it if they did not put

01:05:30   this in.

01:05:31   Exactly, exactly, exactly.

01:05:33   And it justifies the purchase by letting it become, like letting the Mac become part of

01:05:39   the experience instead of something that you need to begrudgingly switch to.

01:05:44   Yep.

01:05:44   And what I'm expecting and hoping to happen and I believe will happen is over time, the

01:05:51   things that I'm doing on the Mac in Vision Pro will decrease, decrease, decrease.

01:05:55   And like, my Mac being the central window is going to change.

01:06:00   But where we are right now, I need it there because like, I need to use Google Docs.

01:06:05   And Google Docs on Safari on Vision OS is terrible because Google treated it like it's

01:06:12   an iPad.

01:06:13   Yeah, which is exactly what I'm doing now.

01:06:15   I'm using Google Docs in Safari and virtual Mac display.

01:06:18   And so, you know, and things like that will start to change over time and then I will

01:06:25   be able to, I won't have to rely on the Mac part of the experience as much.

01:06:29   And so, like, it was, I said it before, I'll say it many more times, like, the fact that

01:06:36   that debate was won in that way was great.

01:06:38   I'm happy.

01:06:39   Are there any other things that we wanted to talk about, like experiences-wise that

01:06:46   we've had?

01:06:46   Couple of things that I want to mention.

01:06:48   First, at the beginning of the show, I said that I was, my sense of depth was feeling

01:06:52   kind of weird because I pushed the virtual display into the wall.

01:06:56   I have since totally gotten used to it.

01:06:59   I think it's quite lovely.

01:07:00   I don't feel weird anymore compared to an hour ago.

01:07:05   And I received today the two keyboard trays that I posted on Mastodon a few days ago.

01:07:16   So, for context, I shared a Mastodon post in which I sort of put out a question to the

01:07:22   world in which I asked, are there any alternatives to the 12 South Magic Bridge accessory that

01:07:29   instead of holding an Apple Magic keyboard and Magic trackpad next to each other horizontally,

01:07:36   are there alternatives that sort of mimic a laptop configuration with the trackpad below

01:07:42   and the keyboard above?

01:07:43   And as it turns out, in Amazon US, there are a couple.

01:07:47   So I got, for science, you know, the one is called the Tionit Plastic Magic Keyboard and

01:07:57   Trackpad Tray.

01:07:58   And another, it's a no-brand acrylic transparent tray.

01:08:03   Both are very similar, and they do work as advertised.

01:08:09   So they have this, it's like an empty shell with two holes, one for the Magic keyboard

01:08:15   that you put above and one for the Magic trackpad that you put below the keyboard.

01:08:19   So it kind of resembles a laptop, but with a giant trackpad.

01:08:23   They work as advertised.

01:08:27   The plastic one, so the white plastic one, the Tionit one, has these little plastic ridges

01:08:34   on the sides of the trackpad, and those protections are in place to make sure that you don't

01:08:42   accidentally touch the trackpad with your wrist and your palm when you're typing with

01:08:47   the keyboard.

01:08:48   That's a common piece of feedback that I got from folks on Mastodon, including a friend

01:08:53   of the show, Dan Seifert, who said, "I tried these accessories before, but I couldn't

01:08:59   get used to them because when you use a desktop Magic trackpad and a Magic keyboard, that

01:09:05   configuration doesn't have the palm rejection features that you typically have in Mac laptops."

01:09:12   And I thought, "Oh no, that sounds like a nightmare.

01:09:14   I will not be able to use this product."

01:09:17   So I did some writing for Mac stories with this accessory today.

01:09:22   I think so far I prefer the transparent one because it's slightly slimmer, doesn't have

01:09:30   the ridges around the trackpad, and even without those protections, it's been fine.

01:09:36   I was able to write a couple of articles for the club in Obsidian while using VisionOS,

01:09:42   and it's a much nicer setup than the 12 South Magic bridge because it's much more natural

01:09:50   to me to have the trackpad below and the keyboard above it.

01:09:54   So if you are in the market for a keyboard and trackpad holder for your Vision Pro, go

01:10:01   check out these two keyboard trays on Amazon.

01:10:03   They are $35 or something.

01:10:06   Obviously, the 12 South Magic bridge is also an excellent accessory, but I realized after

01:10:12   working with the Vision Pro for a couple of days that I preferred the vertical orientation

01:10:18   with the trackpad below instead of next to the keyboard.

01:10:21   So far, I've liked the Magic bridge, but I see where you're coming from.

01:10:26   The Magic bridge is very large because it's all in one line.

01:10:31   And this is much nicer to just put on your lap, and it feels like a laptop without the

01:10:36   screen.

01:10:36   Speaking of which, I want to also point people to that incredible video that I linked on

01:10:41   Mac stories by Luke Miani on YouTube.

01:10:45   So I was familiar with Luke's work before.

01:10:48   They did already a bunch of videos where they showed, like, can you use a headless MacBook?

01:10:53   The idea being, what happens to a MacBook if you detach the screen?

01:11:00   Can you use a Mac that's like a computer that is just a keyboard and trackpad?

01:11:05   You totally can.

01:11:06   And Luke had some videos about this before, but thankfully, they did a video for the Vision

01:11:15   Pro so they were able to detach the screen from an M2 MacBook Air and just use the remaining

01:11:22   computer, again, the keyboard and the trackpad, as an input system for the Vision Pro, which

01:11:28   totally works.

01:11:29   And it's...

01:11:30   Go check out the video because it's wild.

01:11:32   You basically have a computer that is just a keyboard and trackpad.

01:11:37   You can use virtual Mac display mode.

01:11:39   You can use universal control.

01:11:41   And that, to me, feels like the better version of this type of...

01:11:46   It's funny to call it an accessory because, I mean, it's a computer.

01:11:50   It's literally a Mac inside, but it becomes an accessory, right?

01:11:54   And that, to me, feels like the proportions are better.

01:11:57   You have a trackpad that is the right size.

01:12:00   You have Mac OS with palm rejection features.

01:12:03   You have universal control, and you can use a Mac while wearing the Vision Pro.

01:12:09   I am very, very tempted to do this, but I will not because I still want to have a proper

01:12:16   laptop when I don't want to use the Vision Pro.

01:12:18   But I really hope that Apple makes this kind of accessory for the Vision Pro, eventually.

01:12:24   It's fascinating to me how quickly everyone kind of just like, "Yep, you need a keyboard

01:12:31   for this thing."

01:12:31   And I've got the 12 South thing.

01:12:35   I ordered the Clear one after we talked to an iMessage the other day.

01:12:39   It's supposed to get here this weekend, I think.

01:12:41   It is wide, but I was like, "Well, how is it with the keyboard and then just the eye and

01:12:48   hand tracking?"

01:12:48   And I really...

01:12:50   Just my personal feeling so far is I prefer having a trackpad as well.

01:12:55   If I'm just going to sit down and watch a YouTube video in it, no big deal.

01:12:59   Just do it hands and eyes, no problem.

01:13:01   But the other evening, I put it on for a couple of hours.

01:13:05   I was like, "Okay, I'm going to set up..."

01:13:07   I hadn't set up Slack yet.

01:13:08   I hadn't set up some of my communication apps.

01:13:11   I was like, "I'm going to sit down and kind of finish the setup, kind of finish moving

01:13:14   in."

01:13:15   And keyboard and trackpad is still my preferred combo.

01:13:21   But the keyboard at least feels like a pretty necessary accessory for this thing.

01:13:26   The virtual keyboard just isn't.

01:13:28   It's fine for short stuff, but even a lot of messaging, you're going to go to dictation

01:13:34   pretty quickly, I find.

01:13:36   And that's just not feasible in a lot of environments.

01:13:39   I've been having some weird thing going on with dictation where it's not getting some

01:13:47   words accurately.

01:13:49   And I think there's like a thing going on with the language because it's US English,

01:13:54   not British English.

01:13:56   Like I'm finding it's getting some things like just really wrong in a way that is abnormal

01:14:03   for Apple's dictation.

01:14:06   And I think that's the reason.

01:14:07   Yeah, it could be.

01:14:08   Which I just find to be funny.

01:14:11   So that's something I'm going to be keeping my eye on over time, but maybe I can't fully

01:14:15   judge it right now.

01:14:16   My weird thing is that so many times I have this bug where the environments don't work

01:14:24   unless I reboot my Vision Pro.

01:14:26   Now, this is just my theory.

01:14:29   OK, so take it with a huge grain of salt.

01:14:32   But this started happening when I started using the developer strap.

01:14:37   OK, so I'm keeping the developer strap on all the time, even when I'm not plugged in,

01:14:42   because it's got an audio pod, so you can totally use it without a USB cable plugged

01:14:48   in all the time.

01:14:49   But I like using it because when I need to take screenshots for Mac stories, then I can

01:14:54   just plug in a USB cable.

01:14:55   So what started happening, and maybe these two things are not related, but the timing

01:15:01   is definitely not a coincidence.

01:15:02   I open an environment, and I spin the crown to enter the environment, and I'm just left

01:15:12   inside a black void by myself.

01:15:14   Just the environment never comes up.

01:15:17   I have to reboot the Vision Pro, and then the environments start working again.

01:15:22   But before doing the show, I thought, "Well, I'm going to record Connected at Mount Hood."

01:15:27   So I open Mount Hood, I tried to spin the crown, and then I was left in a black hole,

01:15:35   essentially, with windows around me.

01:15:37   Like, it was fully functioning, but just without the environment.

01:15:41   I could hear the sounds.

01:15:42   I could hear the birds chirp in the black void.

01:15:46   And it was a bit weird.

01:15:47   That's terrifying.

01:15:48   So I thought, yeah, it was terrifying, it's like, "Is this what death feels like?"

01:15:53   But so I disabled...

01:15:55   "Hello darkness, my old friend."

01:15:58   It's like where you are.

01:15:59   Federico, I think you really need to test this by changing up the strap, to confirm

01:16:04   if that's what's going on.

01:16:05   Because this is something that's really weird, and I would not want to...

01:16:10   I actually think it's going to...

01:16:10   I think the environments are so key to this device and using it.

01:16:17   I think you need to be able to use them.

01:16:22   Hold on, hold on.

01:16:23   We have real-time feedback from OTJ.

01:16:24   Okay.

01:16:25   "I had the same environment problem you're describing, but before the developer's trap.

01:16:31   It's just related to doing screenshots.

01:16:33   It overloads the device somehow."

01:16:36   Which I also think is an interesting theory.

01:16:39   I've been taking lots of screenshots.

01:16:41   And screenshots are a nightmare if you want good ones.

01:16:43   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:45   Don't tell me about it.

01:16:47   Uh, yeah, the VisionOS review is going to be fun.

01:16:50   So yeah, I'll reboot the Vision Pro at some point tonight so that I can be in an environment

01:16:56   again.

01:16:57   Can I ask you a question that if you're not prepared to answer, that's fine?

01:17:01   Sure.

01:17:03   You said VisionOS review.

01:17:04   Is this going to be an annual thing?

01:17:06   Oh yeah, that's what I'm thinking about, right?

01:17:08   So I kind of want to become the VisionOS guy.

01:17:11   Even though I'm already the iOS and Android OS guy when it comes to reviews.

01:17:16   And so I'm trying to understand how am I going to do this?

01:17:19   And the thing I'm thinking about is I like to write about things that I use.

01:17:26   And right now I'm not using the iPad Pro anymore.

01:17:28   So maybe it's...

01:17:30   And obviously the iOS review needs to continue forever.

01:17:34   Where by forever means as long as I want to do it.

01:17:36   And I still want to do it.

01:17:37   So the iOS review needs to continue.

01:17:39   And maybe, and don't take this as...

01:17:41   This is not an announcement, okay?

01:17:43   I'm not making any announcements here.

01:17:45   I'm just saying that maybe a potential solution could be drop the iPadOS review

01:17:49   and start doing iOS and VisionOS.

01:17:51   I mean, it's basically iPadOS anyway.

01:17:53   Maybe that could be a way to do it.

01:17:57   Because I don't feel like I have the bandwidth or just human energy to do three reviews.

01:18:04   Like three OSs in a single year.

01:18:08   So maybe iOS and VisionOS could be two ends of the spectrum that I could live with.

01:18:15   Maybe.

01:18:15   I think this is going to be interesting to see how it plays out realistically.

01:18:22   Because how...

01:18:24   What is the scale size of the updates, right?

01:18:29   Because all right, that might be a good thought.

01:18:32   But what if the VisionOS updates are way bigger than the iPadOS updates are?

01:18:37   Which will probably be true for a while.

01:18:40   This is a new platform.

01:18:41   You are going to be giving yourself more work.

01:18:44   But maybe you're happy to do that, right?

01:18:45   Because this is a cool thing to do.

01:18:48   But I would say it would seem like a pretty fair thing, at least for the next little while,

01:18:54   that you could assume that if what you were trying to do was to maybe garner the most interest

01:19:00   or to be able to do the most interesting work, reviewing VisionOS over iPadOS seems like

01:19:05   probably a pretty safe bet.

01:19:06   But I guess it's something we don't know, right?

01:19:10   What is the interest overall for people?

01:19:13   What are they going to be more interested in in September?

01:19:17   Would it be iPadOS or VisionOS?

01:19:20   I guess you'll have to just wait and see what that's like.

01:19:22   Yeah, yeah.

01:19:23   We'll see.

01:19:24   I'll keep thinking about it.

01:19:25   I will also see what happens in March with the iPads, right?

01:19:30   That'll be pretty telling.

01:19:31   Because I'm saying now I'm not using the iPad Pro, but maybe the next iPad Pro is going

01:19:34   to be compatible with VisionOS.

01:19:36   Who knows?

01:19:36   Absolutely not.

01:19:38   But I love your thinking.

01:19:40   But even if they release new iPads in March, it's not like they're not going to do anything

01:19:45   with iPadOS in March.

01:19:46   Oh yeah, I'm just saying in the context of iPadOS long term, like what's going on there?

01:19:52   Are you planning a VisionOS review?

01:19:54   I'm working on it.

01:19:56   I'm working on it.

01:19:57   I do have a Vision Pro review.

01:19:59   Well, no, no, no, no, no.

01:20:01   Those are going to be two.

01:20:02   I'm planning a Vision Pro article review/story.

01:20:05   We'll see.

01:20:06   Like hardware using the device and also the OS.

01:20:10   Like I am planning like a professional VisionOS classic teaching style review.

01:20:18   The announcement that I want to share is that I started using DevOnThink to study all kinds

01:20:25   of documentation, design stuff.

01:20:27   Like I am studying VisionOS, all the proper terminology, the developer stuff, and I'm

01:20:35   archiving all the PDFs and web archives from Apple's website, and I'm studying, reading,

01:20:43   highlighting using DevOnThink.

01:20:45   Yeah, that's my little announcement.

01:20:47   Stephen's going to be happy.

01:20:49   Awesome.

01:20:50   I'm excited to see it.

01:20:50   Do you want to talk about some apps before we go today?

01:20:55   Because Federico, I'm sure you've got some stuff, right?

01:20:59   Like I'm sure you have some fun apps that you've been trying out, because I know that

01:21:02   you and Jon are combing the app store.

01:21:05   Because I've decided not to bother doing any of that, because I know that you and Jon will

01:21:12   find anything interesting and just share it with us.

01:21:15   And I got two picks for you.

01:21:16   Let me take care of you.

01:21:17   I got one pick that you already know and one that is new.

01:21:19   So the one you already know, Daypeak.

01:21:22   So this is an excellent, excellent third-party app that sort of is both a digital clock and

01:21:28   a calendar preview tool.

01:21:30   And so you open Daypeak, and it's got a digital time above, and it's got your next calendar

01:21:37   event as a big tile.

01:21:39   And next to it on the right side, you have a list of other upcoming calendar events.

01:21:44   This is just a nice way to keep an eye on the current time, which is very easy to lose

01:21:48   track of while using the Vision Pro, as well as what's coming up in your calendar.

01:21:52   For example, right now, I'm turning to the left, and I can see in Daypeak that there's

01:21:56   connected going on, and while an event is ongoing, it tells you how long until the end of the

01:22:03   event.

01:22:03   So that's also a nice progress bar below.

01:22:06   It's very nicely done, made by an indie developer.

01:22:08   Really cool.

01:22:10   I really like it.

01:22:11   I have a feature request, which I don't know.

01:22:13   This is not the right place for a feature request, but I'm just going to say it anyway.

01:22:16   I would like to be able to choose what calendars it has in the application.

01:22:19   Yes, me too.

01:22:20   Yes, good idea.

01:22:22   The other is a brand new app that Jon just published a review for on Mac Stories.

01:22:29   So this is called Home UI.

01:22:30   This is a spatial HomeKit utility that lets you create virtual buttons for lights, switches,

01:22:40   and what else, outlets, and you can place them around your home.

01:22:46   So for example, right now, I have my desk light strip button virtually floating above my desk,

01:22:52   and I can just look at it and be boom, and I just turned off my light.

01:22:56   And again, that's cute.

01:22:58   That's very cute.

01:22:59   It may be the best example of actual AR that I've come across so far.

01:23:05   That's very fun.

01:23:09   I'm going to have to try this one out.

01:23:11   I like that a lot.

01:23:12   That's a good idea.

01:23:14   There's a lot of fun little bits, like there's all little things that you can feel already

01:23:22   that people are starting to poke holes.

01:23:25   And this is one of them where it's like, "Oh, I could try that."

01:23:32   And these kinds of apps, they feel like the kinds of apps that people work out once they've

01:23:37   gotten it, right?

01:23:38   I don't know if that's the case, but they have that feel to them, right?

01:23:42   Where it's like, "Oh, now I have it."

01:23:43   "I would actually quite like to do this."

01:23:45   And so people see what they can do, and it's like, "Oh, there's this little thing, and

01:23:48   now I can put a switch on my light and turn off my light."

01:23:51   And these are the kind of things that are smart.

01:23:53   It's just a smart little thing, and it's a fun little utility.

01:23:56   Not everything has to be huge and big, but these are the types of apps that need to start

01:24:01   existing for people to build bigger, bolder things, right?

01:24:05   As they're learning where the edges are, what feels good, and what doesn't feel good on

01:24:10   this device.

01:24:11   This is the kind of stuff that it needs.

01:24:13   And I will actually say this is just to very quickly wrap up something that Mark from Australia

01:24:19   wrote in and said, "This is something you were talking about before, but do you have

01:24:24   any sense of what the killer app is going to be?"

01:24:26   And my kind of feeling on that is there will not be a killer app for VisionOS, because

01:24:31   I think the time of killer app is over.

01:24:35   I don't think today with a device like this, there can be one thing that gets people to

01:24:41   buy it.

01:24:42   I think it has to be a collection of things that creates an experience.

01:24:45   You hear all these little bits, "Oh, you can do this, you can do that, you can do this."

01:24:50   And overall, that creates it.

01:24:52   Not if you're just like, "Oh man, X app is so incredible."

01:24:56   I don't think it's enough today to get someone to buy something like this, even when it's

01:25:01   cheaper.

01:25:02   I think it would just be a collection of things, because I think that is ultimately what got

01:25:06   the iPhone successful.

01:25:07   It wasn't really one thing in the end.

01:25:10   It was like the App Store was the killer app for the iPhone, which is not really an app,

01:25:16   but that was what did it, having the App Store.

01:25:19   And then things like, "Oh, the cameras are really good," and the iMessage, and then

01:25:24   you build it out over time.

01:25:25   I think people need to stop asking the killer app question.

01:25:30   I think these days, it's just about what is the overall experience like, and are you interested

01:25:35   in that or not?

01:25:35   I don't know.

01:25:37   Yeah.

01:25:37   Are we good for today anymore?

01:25:40   Ah, that does it.

01:25:41   Yeah.

01:25:42   I need to take this headset off.

01:25:45   I'm starting to feel it.

01:25:46   Probably for the best.

01:25:47   You've been sitting in there for a while.

01:25:49   Yeah, it gets warm.

01:25:50   It gets a little warm.

01:25:51   Hold on, let me take it off, let me take it off.

01:25:53   You can almost feel it.

01:25:54   Ooh, reality.

01:25:55   Oh, wow.

01:25:57   It's pretty so small.

01:25:59   Welcome back to the real world, Federico.

01:26:01   Hello, hello.

01:26:02   We mentioned it already, but there's a ton of great work going on over at MacStories.

01:26:06   Go to macstories.net, and you'll find tons of apps and articles and all that fun stuff

01:26:11   about VisionOS.

01:26:12   You can find Federico on Mastodon.

01:26:15   He is at mastodon.macstories.net, where he's @fittici.

01:26:19   You should go read Steven's review of VisionOS over at 512pixels.net.

01:26:25   And you can also keep up with Steven at eWorld.social as @ismh on Mastodon.

01:26:31   And I am on mike.social, M-Y-K-E.

01:26:33   mike.social is @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:26:35   We're also on Threads.

01:26:37   Federico is @fittici, I am @imike, and Steven is @ismh86, baby.

01:26:42   You know, without the baby.

01:26:43   There's no baby in it.

01:26:44   Although maybe it should be that, you know?

01:26:46   Have you considered that as a new branding exercise for you?

01:26:48   It's my alt, yeah.

01:26:50   Why not?

01:26:51   But like, you know, we're already so deep into it at this point.

01:26:53   @ismh86, baby.

01:26:55   Please don't go there.

01:26:58   Nevertheless, thanks to our sponsors this week, ExpressVPN and FitBud.

01:27:02   Thank you if you're a member of the show.

01:27:04   Go to getconnectedpro.co and you'll get longer ad-free versions each and every week.

01:27:11   Today, we tried to help Steven ask the question, "Why is your iPhone in grayscale?"

01:27:18   Go to getconnectedpro.co.

01:27:21   Until next time, say goodbye, gentlemen.

01:27:23   Arrivederci.

01:27:24   Cheerio.

01:27:26   You said it like a question.

01:27:29   Well, because I was confused about where I'm supposed to...

01:27:32   Because I did the outro today because Steven's throat sore.

01:27:35   And it was weird for me to say it and then it comes right back to me, you know?

01:27:39   That was...

01:27:40   I forgot the order is what happened.

01:27:43   But we can't finish now until you say the things.

01:27:46   You gotta say it, Steven, or we're stuck here forever.

01:27:48   Say the thing.

01:27:48   Bye, y'all.