493: Ends in Potify


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   Hello and welcome to Connected episode 493.

00:00:12   It's made possible this week by our sponsors,

00:00:14   Fitbot, ExpressVPN and Ecamm.

00:00:18   My name is Steven Hackett and I have the pleasure

00:00:19   of being joined by Mr. Mike Hurley.

00:00:22   Well, hello there.

00:00:23   What's up?

00:00:25   Oh, nothing much. Hello Federico.

00:00:27   Hello. Hi.

00:00:29   We're over here as normal and we have follow up.

00:00:33   Yes, yes we do.

00:00:35   This is gonna be the last week of shower follow up.

00:00:39   I'm drawing the line here.

00:00:41   Oh no, no, come on.

00:00:43   What if someone's shower goes green?

00:00:46   Well, you wanna talk about that?

00:00:47   Mm, it was a real thing.

00:00:49   It affected real innocent people.

00:00:52   Shower, green showers?

00:00:53   What if a shower starts hissing?

00:00:56   Hissing shower?

00:00:59   Playing the classics today, boys.

00:01:01   Yeah, we got the hits, we got the hits.

00:01:04   It was a real good starter episode

00:01:06   for a new listener, you know?

00:01:07   Something.

00:01:09   Many people are typing

00:01:12   because this is what I'm labeling

00:01:13   this little section of follow up

00:01:15   because many people wanted to hear more

00:01:18   about why Mike is an evening shower.

00:01:20   I don't understand why this is even.

00:01:22   Wait, what? What's the question

00:01:23   about this, why is this a thing

00:01:24   that lots of people care about? You started saying

00:01:26   something about, oh, I take evening showers.

00:01:29   Yeah.

00:01:30   And then we moved on

00:01:31   and people have strong feelings about morning.

00:01:32   Because why wouldn't you just move on?

00:01:34   Right, like why does this need to come up?

00:01:37   Like, I shower at night.

00:01:39   Like, oh no.

00:01:41   I don't get it.

00:01:41   Is this a weird thing?

00:01:43   Because I also do.

00:01:44   Thank you, Federico.

00:01:46   People have to, here's one of these things

00:01:49   where like people like Casey Liss.

00:01:53   Casey is actually one of these people.

00:01:55   Yeah, I mean, to be fair,

00:01:56   this was the best SPM. Care about people's decision.

00:01:58   And I can't remember whether Casey is an evening

00:02:01   or morning shower.

00:02:03   But whatever, he has like a strong opinion about it.

00:02:05   I think he's a night shower, probably.

00:02:07   Because I think I disagree with him.

00:02:08   Yeah, I think he is a night shower.

00:02:09   Because I remember him saying something like,

00:02:11   would you really want to get in bed

00:02:13   with all of your grossness from the day?

00:02:15   Yeah, that's part of it, yeah.

00:02:19   But also, I just like to shower at night.

00:02:21   Like, it's just what I like to do.

00:02:22   It's more relaxing.

00:02:23   And it's like, you unwind at the end of the day,

00:02:26   you take a nice shower and you're all clean and warm.

00:02:29   And then you go to sleep or you just chill with the movie

00:02:31   before going to sleep.

00:02:32   It's nice.

00:02:33   But when I do shower in the morning,

00:02:35   that's also good too.

00:02:36   You know what I mean?

00:02:37   Like I don't, it's like, it just, dude, I'm clean.

00:02:41   You know, like, what's the deal?

00:02:43   Stephen, what's your problem with it?

00:02:45   Yeah.

00:02:46   I need the morning shower to wake up.

00:02:48   Well, I just have a coffee, you know?

00:02:50   Yeah, me too.

00:02:51   That's what does it for me.

00:02:53   I pour coffee over my head.

00:02:55   I also just feel, I also feel this is gross during the day

00:02:57   if I don't shower in the morning.

00:02:59   Now, here's the secret about the morning shower.

00:03:02   It doesn't preclude the evening shower.

00:03:05   So like, if you work out and get sweaty,

00:03:07   like, rinse off before bed.

00:03:09   It's fine.

00:03:10   Yeah, exactly.

00:03:11   You can just shower twice a day

00:03:12   and that's also an option, you know?

00:03:14   Just shower in the morning and shower in the evening.

00:03:16   And I don't understand why there's so much feedback

00:03:19   about an inconsequential life decision.

00:03:23   Because the internet.

00:03:24   When I'm on vacation, I shower a lot.

00:03:27   That's something I like to do when I'm on vacation.

00:03:29   I like to take like two or three showers a day

00:03:32   when I'm on vacation.

00:03:33   When we go visit my mom's family in North Carolina.

00:03:38   Do you mean me and you or just you?

00:03:40   My family.

00:03:42   Oh, okay.

00:03:43   My wife and I and our kids go to North Carolina

00:03:47   to visit aunts and uncles and my one living grandparent.

00:03:51   We always rent the same house.

00:03:54   It's in the next town over.

00:03:55   It's on Airbnb.

00:03:56   It's the whole house which is pretty nice.

00:03:58   And it has the most incredible bathroom situation.

00:04:03   It's this old like farmhouse that they redid

00:04:06   and spent who knows how much money on.

00:04:08   It has a huge deep tub.

00:04:12   So it's not like a shower tub like I have at my house.

00:04:14   It's like a deep tub, you know, like deep.

00:04:17   And then it has a giant glassed in shower

00:04:21   that like eight people could fit in.

00:04:24   No, we don't invite that many people.

00:04:25   Hang on, how do you know?

00:04:28   It's big.

00:04:29   It has a shower head on each end and in the center,

00:04:32   in the center it has like the rainfall head.

00:04:35   Oh, are you kidding me?

00:04:36   Can you turn them all on at the same time?

00:04:38   You can turn on, I'm trying to think.

00:04:41   I think you can.

00:04:43   Oh my God.

00:04:44   They're all controlled individually

00:04:45   but you can't turn them all on.

00:04:47   You'll just blast through the hot water.

00:04:48   You'll water board yourself, but you'll have a good time.

00:04:52   So we've stayed in this house either two or three times.

00:04:54   I don't think we're gonna make it this summer

00:04:57   but we may go in the fall and we will rent that house again

00:05:00   because of the master bathroom.

00:05:02   It's awesome.

00:05:03   That sounds incredible.

00:05:04   It's really good.

00:05:05   I really loved like just like a good shower head,

00:05:08   like just like a big one.

00:05:09   I like showers that if you're like under the water

00:05:13   you can't breathe.

00:05:14   I like it to be that amount of water.

00:05:17   It's hard to get that though.

00:05:18   'Cause there's a lot of pressure, shower pressures.

00:05:20   I'm seeing if I can find a picture

00:05:22   of the bathroom for y'all.

00:05:23   That would be good.

00:05:25   Probably can't share it.

00:05:26   I'm not gonna share it.

00:05:27   But I'll share it online in the show notes.

00:05:30   Well, I guess I could take a screenshot of it

00:05:32   or I could strip the metadata out of it.

00:05:35   I'm trying to find.

00:05:35   No, no, with the location, please.

00:05:36   So that we can all see it.

00:05:38   The problem is people will reverse image search it.

00:05:42   And then when you say I'm going to North Carolina

00:05:44   then there'll be like a hundred people on the lawn.

00:05:47   I don't think I'm that popular.

00:05:48   Well, you could be though.

00:05:50   Maybe seven people will show up and be like,

00:05:52   can we get in the shower with you?

00:05:54   She said it could hold eight people.

00:05:56   What are we listening to?

00:05:58   Why are we still?

00:06:01   We're still talking about shower.

00:06:03   I told you this is the last time.

00:06:04   And you said, no, it's not.

00:06:05   No, you said it last week.

00:06:08   I don't believe you anymore.

00:06:09   Jeremy and Daniel both wrote in praising the use

00:06:13   of wearing AirPods in the shower.

00:06:15   Jeremy said earbuds in the shower

00:06:17   seems way less weird than a speaker.

00:06:20   I don't know about that, Jeremy.

00:06:21   I put an AirPod in when I start getting ready.

00:06:24   Some days, if I make my fancy coffee, I have to shave.

00:06:26   It might be 15 to 20 minutes

00:06:28   before I can even get in the shower.

00:06:30   An AirPod pro in one ear lets me listen to a podcast.

00:06:33   Hosts remind me that I'm out of shampoo.

00:06:35   Thanks, Steven.

00:06:36   While keeping an ear out for chaos.

00:06:38   But like, I don't understand, like, no, no, no, no, no.

00:06:42   Don't use an AirPod in the shower.

00:06:44   Don't wear your AirPods in the shower.

00:06:46   Just don't do it.

00:06:46   Don't.

00:06:47   Just don't do it.

00:06:48   Don't do it.

00:06:49   I preferred this show when we were receiving pictures

00:06:53   of people's thighs, honestly.

00:06:56   We'd go back to that.

00:06:57   It was so much better.

00:06:57   Now we're getting shower and hygiene feedback.

00:07:01   The size of the shower, or no?

00:07:02   Is that too much?

00:07:04   Is that too much?

00:07:05   Look, I'm cool with it, all right?

00:07:06   It's fine.

00:07:07   Look, it's up to you.

00:07:09   If you want to do that, that's fine.

00:07:11   I'm not necessarily saying you need to,

00:07:13   but if you want to, that's your choice.

00:07:16   You know?

00:07:17   Oh no, this house is on Airbnb right now.

00:07:21   Oh, Dan.

00:07:22   I clicked the old link and it doesn't go anywhere.

00:07:25   Let's move on to our new recurring segment

00:07:27   that everyone's having.

00:07:28   Ah, yes.

00:07:29   It's called Time for Teach Italian.

00:07:30   Oh, okay.

00:07:31   Oh yes, oh yes.

00:07:32   In our quest to make Mike and Steven

00:07:36   learn the Italian language, or at least the basics of it,

00:07:39   we are starting with the alphabet

00:07:41   and Mike, can you remind me where we left off last week?

00:07:45   Elle.

00:07:47   Elle.

00:07:48   Elle.

00:07:49   Elle.

00:07:49   Elle.

00:07:50   Elle.

00:07:51   So we stopped at the L, or in Italian, Elle, okay?

00:07:55   So we are moving up.

00:07:57   We're moving past the halfway point of the Italian alphabet

00:08:00   and I'll give you a preview, all right?

00:08:03   So for sure, we are going to do

00:08:06   M, N, O, P, Q.

00:08:11   That's M, N, O, P, Q, all right?

00:08:14   So I think it's, so M and N are pretty similar to the L.

00:08:19   If we can't get those, we can't get any, you know?

00:08:22   Actually, I would just say, these first three,

00:08:26   pretty simple, you know?

00:08:27   Yeah, yeah.

00:08:29   I found pictures, I found pictures.

00:08:31   I'm sending them to y'all.

00:08:32   Okay.

00:08:33   Steven, we have moved on.

00:08:35   No, no, it took me a long time to find this page.

00:08:38   It is still on Airbnb, it was just like,

00:08:40   I think they're URLs.

00:08:41   That is a big shower.

00:08:42   Yeah.

00:08:43   That is a very, very, very big shower.

00:08:45   Uh-huh, I like how deep the tub is, it's awesome.

00:08:48   I don't know why the shower's so big.

00:08:50   It's aggressively big, but it's awesome.

00:08:52   Oh, it's for two people, 'cause they got like the two.

00:08:55   Oh yeah, I mean, for eight, if you need it to be.

00:08:58   I mean, don't send pictures.

00:09:01   Yeah, so we were saying, "emme, ene."

00:09:06   All right, so let's preview, "emme, ene."

00:09:09   All right, these are the first two.

00:09:10   "Emme, ene."

00:09:11   "Emme, ene."

00:09:12   Yes.

00:09:13   Okay, Steven has still the same,

00:09:15   your weakness is that you don't do the double consonants.

00:09:19   So it's not "emme" or "ene," it's "emme."

00:09:22   "Emme, ene."

00:09:25   Steven, here's, I'm gonna get,

00:09:26   Steven, I wanna try and help you out here, all right?

00:09:28   Please.

00:09:29   Just do a fake Italian accent, just do it.

00:09:31   It will help you, I promise.

00:09:33   I know you're worried that like--

00:09:34   I don't wanna get canceled.

00:09:35   Italy will cancel you, but you need to just lean in.

00:09:38   You need to lean in.

00:09:39   "Emme, ene."

00:09:42   Yeah, that's better.

00:09:45   I mean, it wasn't worse.

00:09:46   I did it in my hands, and I said it, so.

00:09:48   Do the hands, I do the hands.

00:09:51   All right, so with the letter, with the O,

00:09:53   you don't need, it's not, the sound, it's not closed,

00:09:57   so like in English, it's not "o," it's "o."

00:09:59   - Oh, oh, uh.

00:10:02   - Yes, oh, oh.

00:10:04   - Wait, what did you do?

00:10:04   - I can't hear the difference.

00:10:07   - So, listen to the difference.

00:10:09   In English, you would say "o."

00:10:11   In Italian, it's "o."

00:10:13   You see how, yes, it's more open, it's wider.

00:10:19   So P, this one is easy, P.

00:10:22   Just like, you know, the bodily function, yes.

00:10:25   And finally, "ku," "ku," "ku."

00:10:30   It's not "ku," it's "ku," "ku," okay?

00:10:33   - "Ku."

00:10:34   - "Emme, ene," "o, ene," "p," "u," "p," "p."

00:10:39   - It's not "p," it's "yes."

00:10:41   - "Pepi, pepi, pepi."

00:10:44   - And "ku," "ku," "ku."

00:10:46   - Thank you, Professor Federico.

00:10:49   - You wanna save the other ones for next week?

00:10:52   Those are really tricky.

00:10:53   - Yeah.

00:10:54   - We can only do five at a time, you know?

00:10:56   - No, we gotta finish it next week,

00:10:58   because I wanna move on.

00:10:58   I wanna let you pick actual sentences.

00:11:01   - That's like nine letters.

00:11:03   - Yeah, maybe that's the end of next week's show,

00:11:06   you know, rather than the start.

00:11:07   - So we'll save, we'll do the final seven?

00:11:11   - R, S, T, U, V, X, Y, Z.

00:11:14   - How many, seven or eight?

00:11:15   - Nine. - Nine.

00:11:16   Okay, so we'll do it next week,

00:11:18   but then we gotta move on,

00:11:19   because you need to start actually speaking Italian

00:11:21   with basic sentences, so.

00:11:23   - Yep, yep, that's gonna be just an easy ramp up.

00:11:26   We go from five letters a week to four sentences.

00:11:29   - I think some of us are doing

00:11:30   like three and a half letters a week, to be fair.

00:11:32   - All right, speaking of languages,

00:11:36   Eric wrote in, says, "It appears after the 17.4 update

00:11:40   that Siri will now read and announce messages

00:11:42   in the original language they were sent in,

00:11:45   so long as I have selected and downloaded

00:11:47   the appropriate voice engines.

00:11:49   However, this only supports reading

00:11:50   and not replying to texts, but it's a start."

00:11:53   Federico, have you seen this happen?

00:11:55   - I do not use this feature.

00:11:58   I don't have Siri read or announce notifications to me.

00:12:02   - Yeah, I tried it for a while,

00:12:03   and then eventually I stopped doing it.

00:12:06   Stephen, do you have it?

00:12:08   - I do for like iMessages and for carrot weather,

00:12:13   because if I'm on my bike or like working out

00:12:17   and it's gonna rain, I would like to know,

00:12:19   but they're the only two that have that permission.

00:12:22   - Interesting, yeah, I don't do it at all.

00:12:23   - I think this is a nice first step

00:12:25   toward a multilingual Siri, which I really hope

00:12:28   is something that's gonna happen in iOS 18.

00:12:30   But yeah, it's very limited for now,

00:12:34   and I mean, I gotta believe that once they're gonna do

00:12:36   a proper multilingual Siri, it's gonna be based

00:12:39   on the AI features that they're planning, right?

00:12:42   So a system that can actually understand on the fly

00:12:44   whether you're speaking to it in Italian or French

00:12:47   or German or English and dynamically sort of adapt to that.

00:12:51   So I really hope that's something we're gonna see in June.

00:12:54   - Yeah, I used to use the announce messages thing,

00:12:57   but I love my wife, right?

00:12:59   - That's good.

00:13:00   - I love my wife more than anybody else does,

00:13:02   would be my assumption.

00:13:03   But she writes very long text messages and multiple.

00:13:08   Like if she wants to tell me something,

00:13:10   she's gonna tell me everything.

00:13:12   And so that means that we could be going on

00:13:16   for like two minutes and Siri's just reading messages to me.

00:13:20   So at a certain point, I was like, I gotta turn it off.

00:13:23   And I told her, I was like,

00:13:24   I've turned that feature off now.

00:13:25   'Cause the thing is, it's like,

00:13:26   I want to read the message, right?

00:13:28   And I'm still gonna have to read the message

00:13:31   after Siri has told me all about it.

00:13:33   So I hear it and then I have to read it.

00:13:36   That's too many times for the same message, you know?

00:13:39   - I think I do the opposite of Adina.

00:13:41   I send like six super short text messages back to back.

00:13:46   - That's fine.

00:13:46   There is definitely an etiquette around text messaging,

00:13:51   which I think for a lot of us was formed

00:13:53   in instant message days, right?

00:13:55   - Yes. - Like I do it too.

00:13:56   Like I basically, every sentence is its own message.

00:14:00   - Uh-huh. - Yes, yes.

00:14:02   - But if Adina did that to me,

00:14:04   my own red counter would be like 600 messages

00:14:07   just for one little conversation.

00:14:09   So there you go, my wife.

00:14:14   Federico sent me something really amazing the other night.

00:14:18   I think we both linked to it.

00:14:19   Apple has updated their style guide,

00:14:22   which is if you're gonna talk about their brand,

00:14:24   how they want you to talk about it.

00:14:26   - Yes.

00:14:27   - It's this big PDF full of silliness.

00:14:29   And Federico, I know you had a couple of favorites in here.

00:14:32   - Yeah, so this document that I've been using

00:14:35   for a long time, and I get to whether I actually respect

00:14:38   what is written in the document or not.

00:14:40   It was last updated in October, 2022,

00:14:43   and it was updated again in March, 2024

00:14:46   to account obviously for the Vision Pro and Vision OS,

00:14:49   plus a bunch of other updates that have happened since.

00:14:52   And some of my favorites, Apple doesn't want you

00:14:55   to use the word headset to refer to the Vision Pro.

00:14:59   In fact, you cannot even refer to the Vision Pro

00:15:01   by saying the Vision Pro.

00:15:03   Like other Apple products, it's just Apple Vision Pro.

00:15:05   You don't say, "I like the Apple Vision Pro."

00:15:09   You say, "I like Apple Vision Pro."

00:15:11   Nobody speaks like that.

00:15:12   - No, they say you can't use like, you have to use love.

00:15:15   I love Apple Vision Pro.

00:15:18   - You love Apple Vision Pro.

00:15:19   - Wait, are you joking?

00:15:21   - Yeah.

00:15:21   - Yeah.

00:15:22   - Oh, okay.

00:15:23   - But the fact that you thought I wasn't is something.

00:15:26   - No, but there are tons of other instances

00:15:29   of Apple saying, "Don't say this, say that instead."

00:15:32   Which some of them are actually like nice

00:15:35   sort of a modernization of the language.

00:15:37   For example, using the word disable,

00:15:40   Apple prefers you to say turn off, for example,

00:15:42   or switch off, which I think is a nice change.

00:15:45   But there is some silliness in the other.

00:15:49   - Wow, there's so much stuff in this PDF.

00:15:52   - Yes, and the other thing which is something,

00:15:55   the other thing that I really liked,

00:15:57   something that we know because this change happened

00:15:59   on the Apple website a couple of years ago,

00:16:02   but now it's been put in the style guide.

00:16:05   Don't refer to Apple's portable computers as notebooks.

00:16:08   They are laptops.

00:16:09   So they officially moved away from the notebook terminology

00:16:14   and a portable computer is now a laptop.

00:16:17   It's not a notebook.

00:16:18   So, you know, simultaneously--

00:16:20   - I wonder if the iPad changed that, right?

00:16:22   'Cause like the iPad is more of a notebook

00:16:25   than a MacBook is.

00:16:28   - What about Mac pad, is that in here?

00:16:30   - I mean, what is that?

00:16:31   Like a note-top, lapbook.

00:16:34   (laughing)

00:16:36   - Tab-top.

00:16:37   - Tab-top, tab-top.

00:16:38   - Yeah, yeah.

00:16:40   So, Stephen, do you adhere strictly to this guidelines?

00:16:45   - No, no.

00:16:47   - Me neither.

00:16:48   So I think this document is useful

00:16:51   to know the official names of features

00:16:54   and the capitalization of UI elements,

00:16:59   but I am not gonna put out a blog post and saying,

00:17:02   since I've been using Apple Vision Pro,

00:17:04   like I'm not gonna speak like that

00:17:06   because it's now how I speak in real life.

00:17:09   And, but I think, I still think it's useful

00:17:12   to know the official terminology,

00:17:14   especially for like interface elements.

00:17:16   That's where this document usually comes in handy for me.

00:17:20   - I just found a fun one.

00:17:21   Like I was just like scrolling through it and I stopped it.

00:17:23   FitDial, the dial that lets you adjust the fit

00:17:26   of the Apple Vision Pro.

00:17:27   Oh, I'm sorry.

00:17:28   - Did you know it was called that?

00:17:29   - You turn the FitDial, you don't rotate it.

00:17:33   - Wow, I've got a favorite for Apple Silicon.

00:17:37   The S is lowercase in Apple Silicon,

00:17:40   like Mac mini with a small M.

00:17:42   To refer to Mac models with Apple Silicon,

00:17:45   say Mac with Apple Silicon.

00:17:48   Don't say Apple Silicon Mac.

00:17:50   Here's what I like.

00:17:51   To refer to other Mac models,

00:17:53   use Intel based Mac or other Mac computers.

00:17:58   (laughing)

00:18:00   - We don't even talk about them.

00:18:02   - There's other ones.

00:18:03   - Do they have, I'm trying to find it,

00:18:05   but like maybe you know,

00:18:06   do they have how you pluralize like iPhone?

00:18:11   Like, you know, you've got like the iPhone.

00:18:13   - iPhone devices I think.

00:18:14   - Yeah, iPhone device.

00:18:16   But what about like if you're referring to like

00:18:19   the multiple like iPhone models in a generation?

00:18:22   - Exactly what you just said, I think.

00:18:25   - Oh really?

00:18:26   Okay.

00:18:27   - Yeah.

00:18:28   - There's so much in here.

00:18:29   This is absolutely wild.

00:18:31   - And I also feel like this must be so hard to internalize

00:18:36   from a marketing and documentation standpoint.

00:18:39   I mean, and I know that we always find examples.

00:18:42   Like there was headset was used in,

00:18:44   I think a settings app for the Pro at one point, right?

00:18:47   Like, 'cause this is an incredibly hard thing to deal with.

00:18:50   - I think the app store calls it Vision Pro

00:18:52   without the Apple or Apple Vision, I think without the Pro.

00:18:56   - Gross.

00:18:56   - The alert that you get when Vision OS tells you

00:19:00   to move the headset slightly down.

00:19:02   Doesn't it still say headset?

00:19:04   - Oh, does it say that?

00:19:06   That's funny.

00:19:07   - Yeah, yeah.

00:19:07   Move your headset slightly down.

00:19:09   That's what that looks like.

00:19:10   - Move your device.

00:19:10   You wanna move your device.

00:19:12   - Move Apple Vision Pro slightly down.

00:19:14   Yeah, this is a, there's a lot.

00:19:17   And I really like the examples of like iMovie.

00:19:21   Don't use iMovie when you mean movie or project.

00:19:24   Correct.

00:19:25   You can share your movie on YouTube.

00:19:26   Incorrect.

00:19:27   You can share your iMovie on YouTube.

00:19:30   It's full of, it's full of these things.

00:19:33   Yeah, it's a nice document.

00:19:36   I mean, if you're into this sort of thing.

00:19:38   But I mostly just like to-

00:19:40   - I just had a bit of a shock as I got to R

00:19:42   and the first point is racism.

00:19:44   It's like, whoa, I wasn't expecting to see that

00:19:47   in the style guide.

00:19:48   And it just says,

00:19:49   C, writing inclusively. - Do you capitalize racism?

00:19:51   - It doesn't, no.

00:19:52   - Oh, good.

00:19:53   Yeah, C.

00:19:54   - We have ray tracing is in here.

00:19:57   That's fun.

00:19:58   There's lots of stuff in there.

00:19:59   There's lots of stuff.

00:20:00   I just wanted to talk about

00:20:04   the crime that I commit frequently.

00:20:07   So-

00:20:08   - Frequently.

00:20:09   - Frequently.

00:20:09   Calling it iPhone, right?

00:20:13   Just saying like, I have iPhone or like there's new iPhone

00:20:17   or like this is Apple iPhone 16 or whatever

00:20:20   is frustrating, right?

00:20:22   To read and like the idea of writing that way is silly.

00:20:25   And I always thought it was just like, why even bother?

00:20:28   That was until I started making

00:20:31   and talking about my own products.

00:20:32   I do this.

00:20:35   I write without the the.

00:20:39   So with Sidekick Notepad, see that I just did it.

00:20:42   I don't say the because it's not the Sidekick Notepad.

00:20:44   That's not the name of it.

00:20:46   This is especially accentuated because I have a product

00:20:49   that does have the in the product name,

00:20:51   the theme system journal.

00:20:52   So we don't call it the Sidekick Notepad.

00:20:55   We call it Sidekick Notepad.

00:20:56   And in marketing, I would say,

00:20:58   you can take Sidekick Notepad with you.

00:21:00   I do this.

00:21:01   I do this and look, I need to own up to it, all right?

00:21:04   But like, all I'm saying is I understand

00:21:07   sometimes you don't wanna do it.

00:21:09   And so I try very hard.

00:21:11   - What's the plural of Sidekick Notepad?

00:21:14   - Sidekick Notepads because we have other products.

00:21:16   - Sideskick Notepad.

00:21:18   - Sideskick, the S the polarization is in between

00:21:22   the I and the C of Sidekick.

00:21:24   Sidekisk, that's how you supposed to do it.

00:21:27   If you followed the correct style guide.

00:21:29   So I'm just letting you know, I do this.

00:21:32   That's my life.

00:21:33   That's the crime I commit.

00:21:34   I apologize, but sometimes you just gotta do it.

00:21:37   I understand.

00:21:37   Me and Phil Schiller, we understand each other.

00:21:40   That's the end of it.

00:21:40   - Are you sending emails you shouldn't send to people?

00:21:43   - All the time, you can believe it.

00:21:45   The things I write down.

00:21:46   - Are you also gonna get a fine from the European Union?

00:21:48   - Legally, I can't talk about that right now.

00:21:50   - I guess in the UK, I guess you can't, but still.

00:21:55   - All right, so yeah, that's the side guide.

00:21:58   That's pretty nerdy document.

00:22:01   - I wanted to ask you Federico

00:22:04   about Zapier's new automation.

00:22:07   - Ah, yes.

00:22:08   - What are they doing and why is it exciting?

00:22:11   - So after I shared these on Mastodon,

00:22:14   I was told that a similar feature also exists in make.com,

00:22:19   which is another web automation service.

00:22:21   And also, of course, Microsoft rolled out a similar feature

00:22:25   in their sort of take on shortcuts called the Power Automate

00:22:30   and they branded as Co-Pilot, of course.

00:22:32   - What a bad name.

00:22:34   - Yeah, and it's such a pretty bad app

00:22:37   that is confusing to use.

00:22:39   So anyway, the idea was that I needed to create an automation

00:22:42   in Zapier to automate something with the email newsletters

00:22:46   that we sent.

00:22:47   And I noticed that there was a compose field that said,

00:22:51   hey, you wanna describe what you're trying to build

00:22:53   and we're gonna use AI to assemble the actions for you.

00:22:57   I was like, hmm, is this like another of those features

00:23:00   that are like, we made it better with AI.

00:23:02   Is it actually gonna work?

00:23:03   And so I was like, okay, let me try this.

00:23:05   And I did and I was pretty impressed with the results.

00:23:09   I shared screenshots on Mastodon.

00:23:11   So for example, one of the things that I asked

00:23:14   the Zapier service was a pretty complex sentence.

00:23:18   When a new email is sent from button down,

00:23:21   which is our new email provider for newsletters,

00:23:23   and only if that email contains the word weekly

00:23:27   in the subject, extract a number from the subject

00:23:31   and save that number to a text file in Dropbox.

00:23:35   That was my description of what I wanted to have.

00:23:38   So basically the idea was we send email newsletters

00:23:41   that are in the subject line,

00:23:42   they say Mac Stories Weekly colon issue 408, for example.

00:23:47   And I wanted to extract that number

00:23:50   and save only the number to a text file in Dropbox.

00:23:54   I hit Enter on the Zapier beta AI feature and it worked.

00:23:59   Like it understood what I was trying to do

00:24:03   and it put together four actions

00:24:06   that would have taken me a solid 20 minutes to understand

00:24:10   like and to browse the collection of hundreds of actions

00:24:13   that Zapier has.

00:24:14   And I only needed to slightly edit one of them,

00:24:18   the third one, but it was very easy

00:24:20   because I just needed to change from a menu note,

00:24:22   do not extract text, I want you to extract a number,

00:24:25   but that was about it.

00:24:26   And like the fact that just with natural language,

00:24:30   this service understood what I was trying to build

00:24:33   and it turned a sentence that I would speak to,

00:24:36   like I would typically go to a developer and be like,

00:24:39   "Hey, I need a feature that does this and this and that."

00:24:42   And a human would say, "Okay, let me write some code

00:24:46   or let me put together some actions for you."

00:24:49   Here, just the large language model understood

00:24:53   what I wanted and it got to work.

00:24:55   And in just 10 seconds, I had what I was looking for.

00:24:58   And it got me thinking, can you imagine

00:25:00   when this kind of feature, if this kind of feature,

00:25:03   makes it to iOS and shortcuts

00:25:06   and how much it would lower the barrier to entry for people

00:25:12   who wanna use shortcuts and they know?

00:25:14   See, the issue with shortcuts, I think,

00:25:16   is there's so many people who know what they want to build,

00:25:19   they don't know how to build it.

00:25:22   And despite Apple's many attempts over the years

00:25:25   at simplifying the shortcuts UI with suggestions

00:25:28   and the gallery, and even though there's people like me

00:25:31   putting out guides and whatever for shortcuts,

00:25:35   there's still such a high barrier to entry

00:25:37   to put together even a modular actually complex shortcut.

00:25:42   But can you imagine if you could just describe

00:25:44   what you're looking for and shortcuts does it for you

00:25:48   thanks to AI and that makes me really excited.

00:25:52   - Yeah, I mean, I am one of these people, right?

00:25:54   Like where frequently I have an idea for a shortcut

00:25:58   and I can maybe get half of the way there,

00:26:00   but if something is new to me like,

00:26:04   and I haven't built with it before

00:26:05   and I don't have any examples of it, I get lost, right?

00:26:09   'Cause I don't really know how to get it to do what I want

00:26:12   in a way that feels satisfying.

00:26:14   And so something like this would,

00:26:16   even if it did like three quarters of the work

00:26:19   or whatever for me, even if I had to do some tweaking,

00:26:21   which I think you probably did to these APL ones,

00:26:24   it still gives me like the basic structure

00:26:28   of how to complete it.

00:26:29   Because one of the things that's really helped me

00:26:31   in any of the shortcuts I've built on my own

00:26:34   is having looked at shortcuts that you build Federico, right?

00:26:37   And like seeing how the short, like really advanced stuff

00:26:42   works kind of helps me understand

00:26:46   how I can get it to do what I want it to do.

00:26:48   And so having the system kind of hold my hand

00:26:52   and get me through the majority of it, at least,

00:26:55   would be hugely helpful for me in my work

00:26:58   to be able to actually get what I'm looking for

00:27:01   out of shortcuts, which genuinely,

00:27:03   like if they're able to, if they do this,

00:27:05   like if Apple do this and I'm not confident they will,

00:27:09   but if they did this, it could truly make shortcuts

00:27:13   what it always should have been, right?

00:27:15   In the way of like helping regular people use their devices

00:27:20   to get things done without them needing to be involved.

00:27:23   - Yeah.

00:27:24   - That is a big if, big if.

00:27:26   - Big if, I know.

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00:30:01   and Relay FM.

00:30:02   Believe it or not, we have more stuff going on

00:30:10   with Apple and the EU.

00:30:11   This is like round 712, I think.

00:30:14   The whole situation keeps changing.

00:30:17   I think there's been some conversation

00:30:18   about why things keep changing,

00:30:19   which I don't really understand.

00:30:20   Like Apple's rules initially, like there was their suggestions

00:30:24   on how they could meet these things.

00:30:25   And clearly they've still been meeting with regulators,

00:30:30   sorting all this out.

00:30:31   The new changes that are new this week

00:30:35   are the ability for a app developer

00:30:39   to have their app available on their website,

00:30:42   not having to be in an alternative marketplace.

00:30:47   This is web distribution.

00:30:50   There's still a lot of fine print with this,

00:30:53   like a lot of fine print.

00:30:57   Developers are still in the new business terms.

00:31:02   So the core technology fee of, what is it, like 50 cents?

00:31:07   - 50 cents, yep.

00:31:10   - For each first annual install,

00:31:13   over 1 million in the past 12 months.

00:31:15   There's a calculator fee on Apple's website,

00:31:16   so if you're a developer, you can plug your numbers in.

00:31:20   Apps distributed through the web

00:31:21   are still have to be notarized.

00:31:24   Apps through the web still have to be tied to a domain

00:31:28   that the developer has registered in App Store Connect.

00:31:30   In App Store Connect, you marry a web domain and your app,

00:31:34   that still has to be there.

00:31:36   The developer's legal entity has to be within the EU.

00:31:39   So when talking about Epic, towards the end of last week,

00:31:45   where Apple allowed Epic, like a Swedish company for Epic,

00:31:50   in the App Store and then kicked them out,

00:31:54   and they were told to put them back in,

00:31:55   that's why it was like Epic Sweden.

00:31:57   You have to have a legal entity within the EU.

00:31:59   You have to be a member of good standing

00:32:02   of the Apple Developer Program for two continuous years

00:32:06   and have an app that has had more than 1 million

00:32:08   first annual installs in the prior calendar year.

00:32:12   So this is not for someone starting out, you know,

00:32:15   hey, I'm writing my first iOS app.

00:32:17   I'm in the EU, I just want to put it on my website.

00:32:20   These rules don't allow for that.

00:32:22   So those are the fine prints.

00:32:25   I think people saw the headlines, like, oh my gosh,

00:32:27   you can install from the web.

00:32:29   It's like free range sideloading.

00:32:31   It is not free range sideloading.

00:32:33   It is, you can just use a website

00:32:35   instead of having to work with a alternative marketplace.

00:32:40   Not as exciting as it sounded like.

00:32:44   - Yeah, it's still something.

00:32:47   - It is.

00:32:48   - Yes, it is not as exciting, but it is still something.

00:32:50   It is a change that now they'll be able to,

00:32:55   you as a developer don't have to go and be a part of

00:33:02   and do a deal with an app marketplace

00:33:06   to offer your app outside of the App Store, right?

00:33:11   That's a big deal.

00:33:12   - So it could save you money in that way.

00:33:13   You just have more flexibility

00:33:15   over how you want to run your business, right?

00:33:18   Like you're going to pay the core technology fee anyway.

00:33:21   And then as you say, it could save you money.

00:33:22   You don't have to pay a fee to somebody else,

00:33:24   but you also don't need to go through

00:33:25   their application submission process.

00:33:28   You can just offer it on your own, right?

00:33:31   And if you're willing to pay the money

00:33:33   that would be needed to pay for that,

00:33:35   you now also have potentially more freedom

00:33:38   provided that you meet all of the other terms.

00:33:40   So it is still, I think, better.

00:33:44   It's still not what people realistically want,

00:33:47   but I think this is still an improvement

00:33:49   over where it was a week ago.

00:33:52   - I think so too.

00:33:53   And looking at this section of these changes,

00:33:57   one company comes to mind.

00:33:58   It starts with S and ends in Potify.

00:34:02   I don't know if they would do this,

00:34:06   but I could see like, okay,

00:34:08   you've been in the app store for more than two years.

00:34:11   You have more, I'm sure,

00:34:12   than a million first annual installs.

00:34:15   Like if you're going to leave,

00:34:17   you're going to be stuck with

00:34:18   the core technology fee anyways.

00:34:20   Like I could see a world where Spotify

00:34:22   or an app of that size,

00:34:24   maybe this is something they would want to do.

00:34:27   Or they could take advantage of the next change,

00:34:29   which we'll talk about in a second.

00:34:30   - Well, the potential thing about that though

00:34:32   is I'm not sure if you're aware,

00:34:33   but currently Spotify pays Apple nothing

00:34:36   and they don't want to pay Apple any money.

00:34:39   They want to continue paying nothing.

00:34:41   So they probably wouldn't want to pay

00:34:42   the core technology fee

00:34:43   'cause Spotify don't pay Apple anything.

00:34:45   I don't know if you knew that.

00:34:47   Nothing.

00:34:49   - I had heard that.

00:34:50   - I had no idea.

00:34:50   - There's a rumor going around.

00:34:52   - I didn't know that.

00:34:53   - Nothing.

00:34:55   - Nothing.

00:34:56   - So I think the web distribution

00:34:59   is obviously like a good change, right?

00:35:02   A good update.

00:35:03   But I still kind of have to wonder,

00:35:07   like the fact that there's all these conditions

00:35:10   that still need to apply here.

00:35:12   Like, yeah, you can do it,

00:35:13   but only if you are a member of good standing

00:35:17   and you still got to pay the core technology fee,

00:35:20   like all these asterisks, right?

00:35:23   I have to wonder, like,

00:35:25   if I'm a developer in the European Union

00:35:27   and if it is my right under this new regulation

00:35:30   to be able to release my apps with different,

00:35:32   you know, outside of the gatekeeper's control,

00:35:35   isn't the core technology fee

00:35:37   and this sort of vague idea

00:35:40   of being a developer in good standing,

00:35:42   like, is it, like,

00:35:44   aren't these two things still gatekeeping measures

00:35:48   that are going against my rights as a European developer?

00:35:52   - There is a, you know,

00:35:55   people are getting quite upset about this online

00:35:57   for reasons I understand,

00:35:58   but like by a reading of the law,

00:36:03   what Apple is doing is illegal in the European Union.

00:36:06   Like there is a, I think, a very fair reading of the DMA

00:36:10   where you could say this is illegal still

00:36:13   because they are still continuing to be a gatekeeper

00:36:18   because they are still telling you

00:36:20   what you can and can't do.

00:36:22   So like, and this is why,

00:36:24   like this is exactly why we are seeing changes

00:36:29   on a weekly basis right now.

00:36:31   - Yes.

00:36:32   - Because it's what Steven said at the start, right?

00:36:34   Like Apple put its proposals together

00:36:37   and they are continuing now to meet with companies,

00:36:41   developers, and the European Union

00:36:43   to continue to craft this

00:36:45   because what Apple is trying to do, I'm sure,

00:36:48   is like, what is the best reading of this law for us?

00:36:53   And we will craft our rules that way.

00:36:55   And then if we get told we can't do it,

00:36:57   then we'll try and do it a little bit better

00:37:00   for everybody else, but still good for us.

00:37:02   And like, they are just like inch by inch by inch,

00:37:05   not wanting to give anything.

00:37:06   And they're just only giving up

00:37:08   what they are being told legally they have to give up.

00:37:10   But if they want to continue to do business

00:37:12   in the European Union, that's how it seems to me.

00:37:14   - Yeah, yeah.

00:37:16   - The next change is Apple says that app marketplaces

00:37:19   can now offer a catalog of apps from a single developer.

00:37:23   So before Spotify, again, just use them as an example,

00:37:28   could have not set up the Spotify store

00:37:30   and just have their apps in it.

00:37:32   Meta cannot set up the Meta app store

00:37:34   and just have Facebook, Instagram, threads, and WhatsApp.

00:37:37   They had to open their marketplaces to other developers.

00:37:41   And now that restriction is lifted.

00:37:43   So these companies, a single developer or a company

00:37:47   with a portfolio of apps could open their own

00:37:49   at Marketplace.

00:37:50   - Yeah, so Epic Games Store with Fortnite.

00:37:54   That's, you know, even if it only comes with Fortnite,

00:37:59   that's now legal.

00:38:01   - Or even if just Epic Games, right?

00:38:02   'Cause they have a bunch of them.

00:38:03   So like, this would mean that they wouldn't have to,

00:38:06   if they didn't want to have it be like a Steam,

00:38:10   even though the Epic Games Store is,

00:38:11   but like Epic own a bunch of video games, right?

00:38:14   That they have bought over time to like make their store

00:38:17   more attractive.

00:38:18   So now if they wanted to,

00:38:19   they could just offer those games

00:38:20   and they could probably do it faster.

00:38:22   Like, I wouldn't have been surprised

00:38:24   if like it may be able to have taken them a little while

00:38:26   to get the Epic Games Store up and running,

00:38:28   because they would have needed to actually have other people

00:38:31   want to put their games on the store,

00:38:33   but now they'll be able to do it.

00:38:34   As you say, like they could just launch,

00:38:36   like we're launching with just Fortnite

00:38:37   and there'll be more to come,

00:38:39   but they will actually be able to launch

00:38:40   with just Fortnite if they want to,

00:38:42   which they definitely will.

00:38:44   I mean, it'd just be a case of

00:38:45   whether there'll be other games.

00:38:47   But I also think that this makes sense.

00:38:49   Like I don't,

00:38:50   that was one of the restrictions where it was like,

00:38:52   but so what though?

00:38:53   You know, like why did I have to be stores?

00:38:58   Like that everybody can sign up to?

00:39:01   Why do you care about this?

00:39:02   - Yeah.

00:39:04   - And so this is an interesting one,

00:39:07   but it's also like realistically,

00:39:10   why would you, considering point one exists,

00:39:12   why would you do second?

00:39:13   Like if you're meta, right?

00:39:17   Why would you set up an app marketplace?

00:39:18   You might as well just offer them on the website.

00:39:20   You know what I mean?

00:39:21   Like, what's the point of the marketplace?

00:39:23   Unless you want to keep it clean, but yeah.

00:39:26   - And then this last one's a little tricky.

00:39:30   So people saw like the quote unquote scare sheets

00:39:33   or like the big texts of like,

00:39:34   "You were leaving to go to the website.

00:39:35   Apple can't protect your credit card information."

00:39:37   Those are still there.

00:39:39   But the step before that was also heavily regulated

00:39:43   by Apple saying you could only,

00:39:45   you could design your link out only in certain ways.

00:39:48   And now Apple says that developers can choose

00:39:51   how to design those promotions and other deals in their app

00:39:54   as opposed to using those predetermined templates.

00:39:58   So now they can, Apple still has their old templates there

00:40:01   as like a strongly recommended,

00:40:02   but you can make your own sort of splash page in your app

00:40:07   and the user can tap the link.

00:40:09   They will see the scare sheet of you were leaving this app

00:40:13   to go to the website.

00:40:14   You are going to be using a third-party payment processor,

00:40:17   not Apple's App Store payment processing.

00:40:19   Are you sure you know what you're doing?

00:40:21   Click through that and then you go

00:40:23   to the default web browser on the phone.

00:40:26   So that was kind of used to be a two-step thing.

00:40:29   Now it's a one-step thing in terms of what Apple requires.

00:40:34   This is still EU only.

00:40:35   So if you're a reader app

00:40:37   or if you're in another jurisdiction

00:40:41   where some of this is allowed, this particular change

00:40:45   where you can design your own links,

00:40:46   basically that is EU only

00:40:49   and it still requires you to accept the new App Store terms.

00:40:53   - That's like the idea that you need to accept

00:40:56   the App Store terms for this is madness.

00:40:58   It's madness because this is something you can do anyway.

00:41:02   Right?

00:41:02   Like why do you need to accept the new App Store terms

00:41:06   to do this if you're a reader app?

00:41:08   That doesn't make any sense, but also like,

00:41:11   you know, there's the scare sheet part, right?

00:41:13   Where they're like, ah, it's just so dangerous out there.

00:41:15   While I think it's ridiculous,

00:41:17   I at least can understand an element of it

00:41:20   for Apple covering themselves legally, right?

00:41:23   Where, you know, they don't want to be ended up

00:41:25   in court with some customers like,

00:41:27   I thought all the transactions on the iPhone were safe

00:41:29   and da, da, da, da, right?

00:41:30   Like I can understand that to a point,

00:41:33   but the idea that like they said you could only talk

00:41:37   about promotions in a certain way, like the hubris.

00:41:41   Like so much of this process is showing their hubris,

00:41:45   like what they, how they believe business should be

00:41:48   conducted on the iPhone.

00:41:50   Like there's only one good way to show a promo

00:41:54   and it's the way we make.

00:41:55   Like, what are you talking about?

00:41:56   Like let these companies be themselves.

00:42:00   Like if they want to talk to their customers,

00:42:02   their customers, the way they want to,

00:42:05   they should be able to.

00:42:06   Like, why do you have to insert yourself

00:42:08   into every part of this process?

00:42:09   - Well, that's the heart of it.

00:42:10   Apple doesn't view them as the developers.

00:42:12   - Exactly, yeah.

00:42:13   - Customers.

00:42:14   - Which is, which is as you, you know,

00:42:17   very rightly point out, like that is the reason

00:42:21   for a lot of this, right?

00:42:22   That Apple will just upset that the European Union

00:42:25   is making, is taking their customers away.

00:42:27   When they're not actually theirs to begin with.

00:42:29   - I find this whole argument that, that I feel like I'm,

00:42:34   you know, sometimes I don't even know how to comment

00:42:37   on certain things that I see online.

00:42:39   But like this idea that, oh, buying, purchasing

00:42:43   with your credit card stuff online is dangerous.

00:42:48   Why would you use your credit card on a website?

00:42:51   Like, like, like, like, like you don't do these things

00:42:54   every single day on Amazon,

00:42:56   or you buy stupid iPhone accessories on a website.

00:43:00   - Thank you so much for Instagram.

00:43:02   (all laughing)

00:43:04   - Like, like do some people even,

00:43:07   even have a grasp on reality or not?

00:43:11   Like, I don't even get it.

00:43:13   I don't even get it anymore.

00:43:15   You know, and I find it so rich, so rich

00:43:18   when it comes from websites where you can sign up

00:43:21   for a subscription with your credit card.

00:43:25   Now that's not an Apple subscription, right?

00:43:27   It's you're using your credit card on a website.

00:43:29   - Yeah.

00:43:30   (laughing)

00:43:31   - I find that so ironic, but you know.

00:43:34   - This episode of Connected is brought to you by ExpressVPN.

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00:45:09   So in thinking about all of this, we thought,

00:45:16   maybe there's something to make this more fun.

00:45:18   Because look, we don't like talking about this.

00:45:20   - Oh, I do.

00:45:21   No, I do.

00:45:23   I understand why people don't,

00:45:25   but I like to get angry about it.

00:45:26   So like, you know, I do like talking about it,

00:45:29   but I understand that maybe a lot of people don't

00:45:31   or like listening to it.

00:45:33   - Yeah, so.

00:45:34   - I get excited.

00:45:35   - So we're turning it into a game.

00:45:37   This, we're just two rounds.

00:45:40   We are making picks on what we think

00:45:43   Apple will need to change next in its DMA response.

00:45:47   We're going to be going in order of proximity,

00:45:52   and we will judge these in a month to the EU.

00:45:57   - Okay.

00:45:59   - Yeah, wait, wait, actually, hold on.

00:46:01   What is the EU?

00:46:03   - Well, Federico lives in it and you live next to it.

00:46:08   I live far away from it.

00:46:09   It's not that hard.

00:46:10   - No, but like if we're saying Brussels,

00:46:11   like I might be closer.

00:46:12   I don't know.

00:46:13   - Well.

00:46:14   - Right.

00:46:15   - Think we're gonna sit here.

00:46:16   - Right, is it the EU?

00:46:17   - He's in it, you're not, I'm really not.

00:46:19   So it's for our proximity.

00:46:21   - Okay, okay, okay.

00:46:23   So I am, he used to be, you're not.

00:46:25   - Right.

00:46:26   - That's how we, yeah, okay, cool.

00:46:28   - We will judge these on our April 17th episode.

00:46:31   So that's about a month from now.

00:46:33   Two points for each thing we get right.

00:46:35   One point is removed if something is not correct.

00:46:39   How does that sound?

00:46:41   - Two points for each thing you get right.

00:46:43   One point removed if something is not correct.

00:46:45   Okay, so, and these points, what are they useful for?

00:46:48   - Absolutely nothing.

00:46:50   - We'll find out.

00:46:51   - No, I don't.

00:46:52   - Something will happen between now and then.

00:46:53   - They will.

00:46:54   - Yeah, it will come up with something.

00:46:55   - They will be useful for something, okay.

00:46:57   - This is like a modified version of Ricky rules, right?

00:47:01   Is what we're doing here.

00:47:02   - I mean, kind of.

00:47:03   - Two points, but also a reduction point

00:47:05   if you don't get something correct.

00:47:06   So it's like, it is.

00:47:08   - Yeah, it's something though.

00:47:09   It's the, I have a name for it.

00:47:13   Are you ready for this?

00:47:14   - Please do what I want you to do.

00:47:16   - The EUE's.

00:47:16   - Oh, that's not what I thought, but I love it.

00:47:20   - What do you think I was gonna say?

00:47:21   - I was gonna say Ricky with a U in it.

00:47:23   Ricky U.

00:47:26   - Oh, like EU, but Ricky.

00:47:28   - Yeah.

00:47:29   - I like the EUE's.

00:47:31   - With EUE's?

00:47:32   Yeah, I like that too.

00:47:32   That's much better, the EUE's.

00:47:34   - Uh-huh, so we each have a couple of picks here.

00:47:39   We'll grade them in a month.

00:47:42   Federico as a citizen of the European union.

00:47:46   Do you think of yourself as that way?

00:47:48   Or do you just think, you know.

00:47:48   - Yes, absolutely.

00:47:50   I am.

00:47:50   - Do you?

00:47:52   - Yeah.

00:47:53   - Okay, do you think of yourself

00:47:54   as European before Italian?

00:47:56   - No, but obviously I am Italian,

00:48:00   but I am a very, very, very strong proponent

00:48:05   of the European union as a concept, yes.

00:48:08   - Okay, that was how I always felt, right?

00:48:10   Like I felt like I was British before I was European,

00:48:13   but I was very in favor of the European union.

00:48:15   - Yeah, I'm Italian, but I'm very much in favor

00:48:19   of the EU, yes.

00:48:21   So I get to go first, right, in these rounds.

00:48:25   - I also, as the most in favor.

00:48:27   - As the most in favor, most in favor.

00:48:32   So round one, my pick is the core technology fee

00:48:35   is considerably altered, especially for web distribution.

00:48:40   - Okay.

00:48:41   - I really think this fee is gonna get changed,

00:48:46   especially now that you get to release apps

00:48:49   on a website, because then, even with the app marketplaces,

00:48:54   like that whole idea of, well, it used to be,

00:48:58   the discourse online used to be that,

00:49:00   oh, but developers need to pay a fee

00:49:02   because Apple takes care of all the costs

00:49:04   with the App Store and distribution and everything.

00:49:07   Now, that concept was removed

00:49:09   with the alternative marketplaces,

00:49:11   and now even more so with just,

00:49:13   a developer can put an app on a website

00:49:15   and you can install that app on your device from a website.

00:49:18   So I think that core technology fee

00:49:20   doesn't scale to free apps,

00:49:22   doesn't scale for a lot of factors.

00:49:24   I think it's a silly idea,

00:49:26   because otherwise Apple would have done it

00:49:28   on the Mac years ago.

00:49:29   It doesn't seem like you need to pay something to anybody

00:49:33   if you wanna put out a Mac app for free on your website,

00:49:35   and it should be the same on a phone.

00:49:37   So the CTF is considerably altered,

00:49:40   especially for web distribution.

00:49:42   That's my pick.

00:49:44   - That's a good pick.

00:49:45   I have some stuff I wanna say in the CTF later on,

00:49:47   so I'm gonna hold my thoughts on it for now.

00:49:49   But I do, again, it's this thing, right?

00:49:52   As you say, the cost, now, before it was distribution,

00:49:56   and now they're like, oh, now it's because of APIs.

00:50:01   The APIs are expensive. - Sure.

00:50:03   - Even though, as we noted earlier, Spotify pays nothing,

00:50:06   and they use the APIs. - Nothing, nothing.

00:50:08   - And they're able to pay. - They pay nothing.

00:50:10   Nothing, so.

00:50:11   Mike, you're up.

00:50:15   - The idea of member of good standing,

00:50:18   that language is removed.

00:50:20   I don't think this can pass, Musta.

00:50:23   Like, I think they've already gotten themselves in trouble

00:50:27   because the member of good standing idea

00:50:29   is exactly what they threw at Epic,

00:50:31   and that was immediately gotten rid of, right?

00:50:34   - That's the equivalent of if we like you.

00:50:36   - If we like you, that is 100% what it means.

00:50:39   Like, there is nothing, because do you wanna know

00:50:42   who is not a member of good standing?

00:50:44   Epic, they are the example of a member not in good standing,

00:50:49   because they did something that nobody else

00:50:51   has ever done before at such a grand scale, right?

00:50:54   Where they put one of the most popular apps

00:50:57   in the App Store, they snuck in like a Trojan horse,

00:51:00   and then they had an entire advertising campaign

00:51:02   making fun of Apple, ready to go, right?

00:51:04   Like, if you want, who is a member of bad standing?

00:51:08   Epic's a member of bad standing.

00:51:10   But they were able to get back in to this program again.

00:51:13   So the member of good standing thing,

00:51:17   I don't even think you can legally argue this, right?

00:51:20   And also it is essentially saying, as Federico said,

00:51:23   if we like you.

00:51:24   And so I just, I can't understand

00:51:28   how something like this could even be enforced,

00:51:32   and so I just think that they're gonna have to get rid of it.

00:51:35   - Yeah, yeah, it's very hard to codify into law

00:51:40   the idea of good and evil, you know?

00:51:43   And here, Apple is literally asking the EU to say,

00:51:46   hey, we wanna codify good as an idea

00:51:51   to qualify for this program.

00:51:53   What does it even mean, you know?

00:51:54   What's good for you, what does it even mean?

00:51:57   So yeah, I think you will get these two points, Mike.

00:52:00   - 'Cause this is also like,

00:52:01   this has only just started appearing

00:52:03   in like the last week, this idea,

00:52:05   this like member of good standing thing.

00:52:07   And so like, this is the latest thing

00:52:09   where they're gonna be told, no, you can't do that.

00:52:11   'Cause it just hasn't been around enough,

00:52:13   long enough for it to be taken away from them yet.

00:52:16   - You gotta give it a couple of weeks.

00:52:19   (laughing)

00:52:22   - Oh, that's a good one.

00:52:23   That language has bothered me since it showed up,

00:52:25   'cause it doesn't mean anything.

00:52:27   It's not a thing.

00:52:30   Okay, mine has to do with one of the changes this week,

00:52:36   where Apple is letting people do their own layouts

00:52:40   for links and promotions,

00:52:41   but you still have to go through the scare sheets.

00:52:43   And I think that those two could become optional.

00:52:47   So right now, there are two of them.

00:52:50   One says this app doesn't support

00:52:52   the AppSource private and secure payment system.

00:52:54   That's if you're using your own payment processing.

00:52:58   And then the other one,

00:52:58   if you're linking out to the web for purchase,

00:53:01   you're about to go to an external website.

00:53:02   Apple is not responsible for the privacy

00:53:04   or security of purchases made on the web.

00:53:07   You know, big font, big scary typeface.

00:53:10   I think that this is like,

00:53:16   it's more like anti-steering stuff.

00:53:18   It's kind of how it feels, at least lightly,

00:53:22   trying to keep people in the app.

00:53:24   - Some light steering.

00:53:26   - Light steering.

00:53:28   - Just a gentle curve.

00:53:30   (laughing)

00:53:32   - It may not legally be anti-steering,

00:53:34   but I think it's the same effect.

00:53:37   - For some reason, we jokingly call them scare sheets, right?

00:53:41   So I think you're right.

00:53:42   It is without doing the actual locking off steering

00:53:47   that they do, they are trying to get people

00:53:51   not to do the thing by telling them to go back, you know?

00:53:55   - Yeah, that's my round one pick.

00:54:01   - So you think that they're essentially,

00:54:04   they won't be able to,

00:54:05   or they won't be enforcing the idea of having these.

00:54:08   So if you want to link out, it's up to you if you use them.

00:54:11   And so you can just press the button and go.

00:54:13   - Yeah, I think so.

00:54:15   - I would like this.

00:54:16   - Yeah.

00:54:17   - But I think that that was bold.

00:54:19   That's a bold one.

00:54:20   - Yeah.

00:54:21   - I think they will fight this one pretty hard.

00:54:24   - Probably, but at the same time,

00:54:27   I don't know how much fighting Apple can do

00:54:30   on any of this at this point.

00:54:31   - Very good point, very good point.

00:54:33   Before we start with round two,

00:54:35   can we just take a second to appreciate the fact

00:54:38   that we are literally playing a game

00:54:40   about regulation in the EU and what Apple is going to do.

00:54:43   And we established a point system for this.

00:54:46   Like, it's like, I just appreciate, you know,

00:54:50   what we do here and how silly we can get

00:54:53   about something that is so boring.

00:54:55   - We've turned regulation into a game.

00:54:57   - Yeah, it came to me when we were chatting

00:55:02   and I messaged yesterday.

00:55:03   - Thank you, thank you.

00:55:04   - Very good, very good.

00:55:05   - So that being said, my first pick for round two

00:55:08   is Phil Schiller is replaced as the head of the initiative.

00:55:11   - Yeah.

00:55:12   - This is a bold one.

00:55:14   - Yeah, yeah.

00:55:15   Look, so I like Phil Schiller.

00:55:20   I have met Phil Schiller.

00:55:22   I have spoken to Phil Schiller.

00:55:25   I think he's done, obviously over the years,

00:55:29   a ton of good things for the App Store.

00:55:31   You know, the whole subscription initiative

00:55:32   and all of that.

00:55:33   But my problem now is that I think Apple needs a person

00:55:38   with a stronger hold of European views and values.

00:55:44   I think putting an American person

00:55:52   for as much as it can be knowledgeable here

00:55:56   about the EU and the DMA and the App Store,

00:56:00   I feel like Apple probably needs somebody

00:56:04   with different sensibilities

00:56:06   when it comes to dealing with the European government.

00:56:10   - Because, you know, you've just opened my eyes

00:56:12   to something that like, you know,

00:56:15   people have been talking about this.

00:56:16   I've been seeing people talk about this.

00:56:18   But I think you can remove Phil from this argument.

00:56:23   Like the issue they may be having is

00:56:27   the European Commission just have a disdain

00:56:29   for the Americans, right?

00:56:30   Like you could just say that as like a starting point

00:56:32   where it's like, they would maybe have better conversations

00:56:36   with someone from Europe where like we're coming

00:56:39   to the table as Europeans to have this discussion

00:56:43   as opposed to the Americans coming in

00:56:45   to talk to the Europeans.

00:56:46   Like that is just a bad starting point

00:56:48   for these kinds of negotiations, I'm sure.

00:56:50   That's a really good point, Federico.

00:56:52   - That is exactly what I was driving at.

00:56:55   Yeah, I think they need a new public face

00:56:59   to drive this whole quest toward respecting

00:57:04   and implementing the DMA.

00:57:07   And to have someone who maybe comes with a background

00:57:11   in the European Parliament or just somebody

00:57:13   who's used to lobbying with EU regulators,

00:57:16   I think that would be a better starting point

00:57:19   than putting the person who used to work for Steve Jobs

00:57:22   with a very American-centric point of view

00:57:25   in charge of this whole process.

00:57:27   So yeah, that's my pick.

00:57:30   - I like it, I like it a lot.

00:57:32   - It's good.

00:57:33   There was a story at the end of the month

00:57:35   that Apple was hiring away a deputy assistant to Joe Biden,

00:57:40   Olivia Dalton, I think she worked for like two decades

00:57:43   and in communication.

00:57:44   I don't know if she would take this over

00:57:45   'cause I think you're right that someone like,

00:57:50   she's more American than Phil Schiller.

00:57:51   Like she worked for the federal government for a long time.

00:57:53   - My bet on her is she is being brought in

00:57:56   to get ready for when the Americans

00:57:58   try and do something like this.

00:57:59   - Maybe so, yeah.

00:58:00   - You said this is an upgrade

00:58:01   and I thought that was an excellent point, yes.

00:58:04   - This is the, oh, this has gone so badly.

00:58:06   We need to not, we need this to go not so badly

00:58:09   when it happens on our home turf

00:58:11   because we can't argue so much.

00:58:13   - They could have put a European in charge of in the US.

00:58:17   (laughing)

00:58:19   - It's like, we know how to do it.

00:58:21   - Yeah, yeah, I'm not the new head of the app store, eh?

00:58:24   I'm not gonna talk to Joe Biden.

00:58:27   - President Biden.

00:58:28   (laughing)

00:58:30   I have a recommendation.

00:58:32   - Oh yes, my president.

00:58:35   (laughing)

00:58:37   - Oh boy.

00:58:40   - All right, my second pick

00:58:42   is that the core technology fee is removed

00:58:45   for fully free applications.

00:58:47   - Wow.

00:58:49   - Now here's the thing, right?

00:58:51   Fully free, you cannot make money, right?

00:58:55   Like this is what I actually believe too.

00:58:57   Like if you, I said this before,

00:58:59   like if you're a company and you have an advertising model

00:59:02   and like Apple's telling you you need to pay them,

00:59:04   you just need to pay them, right?

00:59:06   Like that should, if you wanna do the business

00:59:08   with the way they wanna do it, fine.

00:59:10   But I do think if you are an application

00:59:13   that is completely free, has no intention of making money,

00:59:17   you shouldn't need to pay the core technology fee.

00:59:19   It doesn't make any sense, right?

00:59:21   Like, and then you should be able to benefit

00:59:24   for everything you want.

00:59:25   Now, as Zach is saying in the Discord,

00:59:28   this would be very hard to police developers

00:59:31   outside the store.

00:59:32   This is hard anyway, because a lot of the stuff

00:59:35   you have to provide accounting to Apple.

00:59:39   - Yeah, they do have, for some types of purchases outside,

00:59:44   there is, there are some like API things

00:59:46   that you can tie back into.

00:59:48   It's not like you're just sending a CSV over to Apple,

00:59:51   but it is extremely difficult, I think.

00:59:54   - Yes, like a lot of the weird carve out rules

00:59:57   that Apple's been doing in all different kinds of countries

01:00:00   and jurisdictions require like,

01:00:03   you have to kind of pledge a blood oath to Apple

01:00:06   that you'll be truthful to them

01:00:07   and they can audit you whenever they want.

01:00:09   And so like maybe they would just do a similar thing, right?

01:00:11   If you are completely free, that is totally fine,

01:00:14   but if we audit you and we find out you're making money,

01:00:17   you owe us all the money.

01:00:18   And that that, in theory, should be enough.

01:00:21   It's the same as like taxation law, right?

01:00:23   Like just in general, like a lot of the way

01:00:25   that taxation law is, is like,

01:00:27   you're gonna be honest about your taxes

01:00:29   because we could audit you and then you're in big trouble.

01:00:32   And I could just imagine trying to do something like that.

01:00:34   Because I think it's going to get really complicated.

01:00:39   Like, I don't know.

01:00:40   I mean, I'm sure there is a way,

01:00:41   but like if you distribute your app via the web,

01:00:45   do they even know how many people have downloaded it?

01:00:48   - I'd imagine that there's, I don't know this,

01:00:51   but I would imagine there's some mechanism.

01:00:53   - Some kind of call.

01:00:54   - In the installing process that they create a note.

01:00:58   - Yes, and they could check

01:00:59   because the app needs to be notarized, right?

01:01:02   So they could always check like how many hits

01:01:04   to the Apple servers for notarization they get

01:01:07   and infer how many active insults there are.

01:01:11   - But nevertheless, I'm not saying

01:01:13   I think this is necessarily gonna happen.

01:01:15   I think it should.

01:01:16   I think they would save themselves so much heat

01:01:21   if they removed this for applications

01:01:23   that were completely free.

01:01:25   And at the end of the day,

01:01:26   for applications that make money,

01:01:28   whether you make a lot of money

01:01:29   or not a lot of money or whatever,

01:01:31   you kind of just have to get on board with the fact

01:01:33   that like this business that you're in business with

01:01:35   is telling you these are the terms

01:01:36   of being in business with this business.

01:01:38   And if everyone's making some element of money,

01:01:40   like we just have to all get on with it.

01:01:43   But it's very complicated for me for them to say

01:01:45   that like for you to distribute a free application

01:01:50   inside of the European Union,

01:01:52   if it's a very popular free application,

01:01:54   you should give us money.

01:01:56   But there's like a line of popularity.

01:01:57   Like it's just very complicated.

01:01:59   And I would just feel happier if they did this.

01:02:01   But I don't think they will.

01:02:04   I mean, what is more likely is what Federico said,

01:02:06   that it's considerably altered

01:02:08   or just like removed completely.

01:02:11   But I'm thinking Apple will try everything they can for that

01:02:14   and the fully free apps that have CTF removed.

01:02:18   - Yeah, that's a good one.

01:02:19   I think it's weird the way the CTF

01:02:24   is applied evenly to everything

01:02:28   if you're at that threshold.

01:02:30   If you have a free app in the App Store,

01:02:32   you don't charge anything at all, it's free to you.

01:02:36   So why should it be?

01:02:37   - So why is that then?

01:02:38   Yeah, that's a really good point.

01:02:39   Like how does that work then for these bunch of freeloaders

01:02:43   in the regular App Store?

01:02:44   - Yeah, interesting.

01:02:49   Okay, my final one is changes to rules

01:02:54   about apps being installed from an alternative source.

01:02:59   So this is a little bit related to that question

01:03:00   about how do they know what's out there,

01:03:02   what's being installed?

01:03:03   So the current language, I wanna read this to you.

01:03:07   We want the app experience to remain as intuitive

01:03:09   as possible for both users and developers.

01:03:12   That's why developers will submit a single binary

01:03:14   of their app for distribution across channels,

01:03:17   including the App Store or an alternative app marketplace.

01:03:21   An app may only be installed

01:03:23   from one distribution channel at a time

01:03:25   to download a previously installed app from a new channel,

01:03:28   the user must delete the app

01:03:29   and reinstall it from a new marketplace.

01:03:32   So say that I'm in the EU, I have Instagram on my phone,

01:03:36   and it's from the App Store, it's from the pre-DMA, right?

01:03:40   I installed it long ago, but now for whatever reason,

01:03:44   I wanna download Instagram through the meta app marketplace,

01:03:48   assuming they do one.

01:03:49   I have to, I can't just go to metas store or website

01:03:55   and download it and it overwrite what's on my phone.

01:03:59   I have to delete it from my phone.

01:04:01   Now with Instagram, this is an issue,

01:04:03   but in a lot of apps, you would risk data loss at this point,

01:04:07   and then I have to reinstall it.

01:04:10   That's a bad user experience.

01:04:14   It risks data loss, like I said,

01:04:17   and it just seems like a hurdle that doesn't,

01:04:21   I don't know the technical reason for that hurdle,

01:04:25   and it seems like something

01:04:26   that could be brought back to earth.

01:04:28   - What are you actually saying, though?

01:04:32   That they're gonna do what?

01:04:33   - Well, that they would have a change

01:04:35   where if I have an App Store app installed

01:04:37   and I want a new version of that app from somewhere else,

01:04:41   I can install over it in place,

01:04:43   like an App Store does now, or I'm not losing data.

01:04:46   - You no longer need to delete an application, basically,

01:04:49   is what you're suggesting.

01:04:51   Okay. - Yeah.

01:04:52   - That seems, I do wonder about that one,

01:04:55   if it's like, they just can't do it,

01:04:57   'cause it has to be treated as a separate app.

01:04:59   Like, I've wondered about that idea,

01:05:01   but who knows?

01:05:03   - Yeah, I mean, I get that, and yeah, that may be the case,

01:05:06   but Apple made the whole system.

01:05:07   Like, I'm sure they can figure it out if they have to.

01:05:09   - You know what, yeah?

01:05:11   Well, it's like, it works with TestFlight, right?

01:05:13   - Yeah, you can go back and forth

01:05:14   with TestFlight and the App Store all day long.

01:05:16   - Yeah, so why should it not work like this?

01:05:18   It's like, yeah, it's a good point.

01:05:20   They make the decisions.

01:05:21   They're God in this scenario, right?

01:05:23   Like, they draw out these things.

01:05:24   They don't happen naturally.

01:05:26   It's all the sense of rules and technology, right?

01:05:29   And so they have the ability to change anything.

01:05:32   On that thing about, like, apps and updates and stuff,

01:05:34   did you see the thing about, like,

01:05:37   what happens if you leave Europe?

01:05:39   - The app stops working after a while, right?

01:05:42   - After 30 days, you don't get updates anymore.

01:05:44   - Wow.

01:05:45   That's incredible.

01:05:48   - Yeah.

01:05:49   - So spiteful.

01:05:51   That's what kills me about all this,

01:05:53   just the attitude problem.

01:05:54   - I just think these are the kinds of things

01:05:57   that, like, we shouldn't be seeing, you know?

01:06:00   - Yeah.

01:06:01   - This is, in a way, it feels like too,

01:06:06   well, not in a way, it's two very large institutions

01:06:09   smashing into each other, right?

01:06:12   And all these pieces are flying off left, right, and center,

01:06:15   and we're picking them up and seeing what it's all about.

01:06:18   We shouldn't really see this stuff,

01:06:21   but I actually think that this is part of

01:06:25   the reason in which the European Union chooses its,

01:06:29   I think, peculiar way of putting laws into place, right,

01:06:32   which is like, we won't tell you what to do.

01:06:35   Like, exactly, you have to do it,

01:06:37   and then we'll tell you if it was right or not.

01:06:39   And I think part of the advantage of doing that

01:06:42   is we see stuff like this happen.

01:06:43   And I think it ingratiates people towards

01:06:47   the rule-making of the European Union,

01:06:49   because we have to sit and watch

01:06:52   as these companies try and flail around

01:06:55   and look stupid in the process.

01:06:57   Smart move.

01:07:00   - Good times.

01:07:01   So we'll check back in in a month,

01:07:04   and we'll see where things are.

01:07:06   Look how much changed over the last 10 days.

01:07:08   It could be a whole new world.

01:07:10   - Any and all of this could change.

01:07:13   Maybe Apple just leaves the European Union, yeah?

01:07:16   Federico, do you ever worry about that?

01:07:19   - No, it seems impossible.

01:07:21   - Yeah.

01:07:22   - Yeah, no, how can you leave the European Union, you know?

01:07:25   It's never gonna happen. - Okay, the argument,

01:07:30   the argument is the fines could be so large

01:07:35   that at a certain point, you will lose more money

01:07:40   than you could possibly make.

01:07:41   - But it's more than just about the bottom line.

01:07:44   If you pull out of EU, your stock will take a huge hit,

01:07:49   because it's all future possible revenue and growth

01:07:52   in that area is gone.

01:07:53   - If Apple seriously considers dropping the EU as a market,

01:07:58   Tim Cook will be immediately replaced.

01:08:00   - Yeah.

01:08:01   - It seems impossible to consider as an option.

01:08:04   - I don't think any of these things

01:08:06   are necessarily possible.

01:08:06   I'm just playing this out a little bit here.

01:08:09   What if the argument to Wall Street was quite simply,

01:08:12   we cannot comply with their laws,

01:08:14   we will be saving $10 billion over the next five years?

01:08:18   Like, the cost savings is all Wall Street cares about.

01:08:21   They don't care about anything else.

01:08:22   - I think the other problem is, it is in the EU now,

01:08:26   this is coming for Apple and other places.

01:08:28   And they can't open that door,

01:08:32   'cause then the only country you're left in is China,

01:08:36   and they don't wanna be there.

01:08:37   - And Apple would face the potential issue

01:08:40   of firing thousands of people who work in Europe,

01:08:45   in retail stores, in offices, in the supply chain.

01:08:48   Thousands, dozens of thousands.

01:08:51   I don't even know how many Apple people work in Europe.

01:08:54   - I don't think this is a possibility,

01:08:55   but it's just a question.

01:08:57   It's just something I think about you

01:08:59   when I hear people talk about this stuff,

01:09:01   'cause obviously, everyone I know,

01:09:03   it would affect you the most.

01:09:05   But it's just a thought, right?

01:09:08   It is not impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely.

01:09:14   So many terrible things would have to happen

01:09:16   before that would even be entertained, right?

01:09:19   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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01:10:52   and Relay FM.

01:10:53   - Let's talk about something different.

01:10:58   Let's talk about the Vision Pros.

01:10:59   So we've had our Vision Pros for like,

01:11:02   is it two months now?

01:11:03   - No, a month. - Is it a month?

01:11:04   A month. - A month and 10 days.

01:11:07   And I wanted to kind of check in

01:11:09   about our current experiences.

01:11:11   I wanted to just jump in first and give mine

01:11:15   and then we can, you know, maybe go around the horn.

01:11:18   I've been having, I don't know, the longer I use it,

01:11:19   the more weird things I run into, right?

01:11:22   I just think it's natural.

01:11:24   - This is also my feedback here.

01:11:26   The more I use it, the more I run into weird issues, yes.

01:11:28   - And so like I've experienced things

01:11:30   that I've seen other people say,

01:11:31   like I've had, I've had environments tearing

01:11:36   and like there's just like blackness

01:11:38   is what it's replaced with.

01:11:40   I've had jitteriness and stuff like that.

01:11:42   But the biggest issue that I've had consistently

01:11:45   is eye tracking issues.

01:11:46   - Yes, same here.

01:11:48   - Where I'm trying to do something

01:11:50   and no matter what I do,

01:11:52   I can't seem to look at what I need.

01:11:56   And I will say the thing that I have been able

01:11:58   to nail down here, which does fill me

01:12:01   with an element of positivity,

01:12:03   the majority of issues that I have are with compatible apps,

01:12:06   like iPad apps that run on Vision Pro.

01:12:09   The reason I say that is I feel like

01:12:12   it's as more and more apps for Vision Pro exist,

01:12:14   maybe this problem is lessened

01:12:16   and or there are maybe things that can be done

01:12:19   to try and make this better.

01:12:20   And I do feel that in general

01:12:22   that like this is a version one product,

01:12:25   the eye tracking kind of should go wrong sometimes,

01:12:27   if that makes sense.

01:12:28   I think it's the most complicated part.

01:12:31   It feels like the thing that has the potential

01:12:33   to be fixed to, right?

01:12:37   It's like the way they use the data

01:12:39   that comes from the sensors

01:12:40   to interpolate where I'm looking.

01:12:42   I have noticed in my experience that if I'm having trouble

01:12:46   and I run the setup process again, it will fix it for me.

01:12:51   But I don't know what it is that causes the problem.

01:12:54   But it's the most consistent issue that I've had

01:12:58   is that my eye tracking gets a bit weird sometimes.

01:13:01   And then just a general frustration I have

01:13:03   is that the standby battery is so bad, it's so bad.

01:13:07   I don't leave mine plugged in

01:13:10   because I'm just not gonna do that.

01:13:12   And so like every day or maybe every day, every two days,

01:13:16   I go to use my Vision Pro

01:13:17   and this battery is completely dead

01:13:20   and I have to plug it in and wait.

01:13:22   So yeah, those are kind of my frustrations.

01:13:26   But overall, I do continue to really enjoy using it.

01:13:31   Like my time with the Vision Pro is very different

01:13:34   to any other computer that I have.

01:13:36   Like the things that I find myself doing

01:13:38   and I find it very enjoyable to use.

01:13:41   Like I had my first experience,

01:13:43   which I'm sure you two have both had already

01:13:45   of like I needed to get some writing done yesterday.

01:13:48   And I was kind of like not being very productive at my Mac.

01:13:53   And I went and sat down with my Vision Pro

01:13:55   and I opened Notion and I tuned the environment in

01:14:00   and I was good to go.

01:14:01   Like it gave me that kind of like

01:14:03   different environment feeling

01:14:05   that I know a lot of people benefit from.

01:14:07   And like that was really nice.

01:14:08   Like that was like, oh yeah,

01:14:09   like this is like a great use of this product.

01:14:11   Plus you could be like, I was in physically

01:14:13   a more comfortable environment,

01:14:15   sitting on the couch rather than sitting on my desk.

01:14:16   Like it helped that kind of mode shift

01:14:19   that I needed to get that work done.

01:14:21   So yeah, I would say like overall,

01:14:23   I do continue to have very positive experiences of it,

01:14:27   but now that I've used it for long enough,

01:14:29   I am starting to see more and more weird

01:14:31   and broken things too.

01:14:32   - Yeah.

01:14:33   Yeah, that would also be my takeaway.

01:14:35   I think it's been a slow ramp up for me

01:14:39   in terms of like using the Vision Pro for work.

01:14:42   Some things that I've noticed,

01:14:43   I am not using environments as much as I thought I would.

01:14:48   It just, it feels isolating enough

01:14:50   to put a thing on your face

01:14:51   and to be in a virtual environment.

01:14:53   Maybe it's the fact that I have dogs at home

01:14:56   and I just, I need to be aware of what they're doing.

01:14:59   So, you know, putting an environment all around me,

01:15:02   it's a cool visual thing,

01:15:05   but I prefer to be fully aware and see my surroundings.

01:15:09   I love putting a bunch of windows around me,

01:15:12   even though there are no multi,

01:15:14   like window management features at all,

01:15:16   I just love the power of it.

01:15:18   The issues that I'm seeing,

01:15:21   the eye tracking, as you mentioned,

01:15:23   like sometimes, and this happens for me,

01:15:24   even with native apps,

01:15:26   I just cannot get, you know,

01:15:27   the Vision OS to highlight what I'm looking at.

01:15:31   And it tends to be elements

01:15:35   high up in my field of view, usually.

01:15:40   So maybe it's something that has to do with my lenses

01:15:43   or maybe it's something that has to do with my eyes.

01:15:45   I don't know.

01:15:46   But I've also been trying,

01:15:47   and this will be an article on Mac stories.

01:15:49   I've been trying all kinds of sort of mods

01:15:54   for the Visual Pro straps.

01:15:58   Did you cut the front of it off?

01:16:01   I, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:16:03   I had John ship me multiple items from Etsy in the US.

01:16:08   And right now I'm using the...

01:16:10   I believe it's pronounced Etsy.

01:16:12   Etsy, yes.

01:16:14   No, hey, do you want to know?

01:16:16   Hey, hey, get ready, you want to know?

01:16:18   You want to know how the Y is pronounced in Italian?

01:16:22   Yes.

01:16:23   I'm going to give you a small teaser.

01:16:23   Ypsilon, so get ready for that.

01:16:26   What?

01:16:26   Whoa, it's Ypsilon.

01:16:29   I think I'm going to miss next week's show.

01:16:32   Get ready for the Ypsilon, my friend.

01:16:37   So right now I'm using the Solo Top adapter.

01:16:42   So this is a thing that lets you use the Solo strap

01:16:46   in the back of your head,

01:16:47   but also an additional one on the top of your head.

01:16:50   So I'm using two Solo knit straps at the same time,

01:16:54   and it's very comfortable.

01:16:56   But I'm waiting for more adapters to try different options.

01:17:00   But yeah, eye tracking has been a frustration.

01:17:02   And the other thing I wanted to mention,

01:17:04   sometimes when I'm using my Mac with the Vision Pro

01:17:08   for keyboard input, I have this issue where,

01:17:12   and I'm guessing it's because of how I use my hands

01:17:17   in real life, I have my hands on the keyboard.

01:17:22   And because my thumb rests close to my index finger,

01:17:27   VisionOS interprets that as a pinch.

01:17:31   And so sometimes, even though I'm typing,

01:17:34   I'm also accidentally swiping in the UI.

01:17:37   So for example, if I'm typing in Obsidian,

01:17:41   and I'm writing, but sometimes the Obsidian sidebar

01:17:46   comes up from the left side.

01:17:48   And that's because VisionOS thought

01:17:50   that even though I was typing, I was also swiping.

01:17:54   And that gesture invokes the Obsidian sidebar.

01:17:58   And so I think I would like to have some enhancements

01:18:01   in VisionOS, some safeguards,

01:18:03   sort of to assume that if the user is typing,

01:18:06   maybe be less aggressive with seeing that pinch

01:18:12   gesture in front of the cameras.

01:18:15   So yeah, that's something that I would like to see improved.

01:18:17   And yeah, it's been a slow ramp up for sure.

01:18:21   Like trying apps, and it's very early days, right?

01:18:24   So yeah, trying all these utilities, I think-

01:18:28   - So I've had a problem with apps where like,

01:18:30   I'm trying not to buy too many,

01:18:31   because I'm gonna need to rebuy them all soon, right?

01:18:35   'Cause I'm on my US App Store account.

01:18:38   So like, I haven't really been buying a lot of games,

01:18:41   because I don't wanna buy all these games.

01:18:44   And then in like three months, buy all these games again,

01:18:47   because I'll need to rebuy everything, right?

01:18:51   I'm assuming, if I change App Store account,

01:18:53   which I will be doing.

01:18:56   So like, I'm trying to hold off from some stuff.

01:18:59   - Yeah, the one thing I wanna say for anybody

01:19:01   who's interested in the Solo Top,

01:19:02   which of all the adapters that I've tried so far,

01:19:05   the Solo Top is the best in terms of printing quality.

01:19:08   Like, the plastic feels much better

01:19:10   than what you get from other Etsy adapters.

01:19:13   If you consider going down this route,

01:19:15   I recommend getting a size for the Solo Knit Strap

01:19:20   that you wanna put over, like above,

01:19:23   the one that goes on your head, like above your head.

01:19:26   That one, get it one size smaller than the Solo Knit Strap

01:19:31   you put in the back of your head.

01:19:32   So for example, my main Solo Knit Strap was an M size.

01:19:37   I got the S size for the top of my head.

01:19:40   So, because the M1 was too large, yeah.

01:19:45   - Two quick things.

01:19:48   The Solo Top looks bananas.

01:19:51   This thing is wild.

01:19:55   - The image of it looks like an AI imaginary messed up.

01:20:00   - Yes, it's like it's got too, too many fingers,

01:20:04   you know, like that princess.

01:20:05   (laughing)

01:20:07   The other thing just to cull the feedback

01:20:12   is that Mike is not able to do family sharing.

01:20:15   No one can do family sharing across regions.

01:20:18   And so your American account and those purchases

01:20:20   you're making 'cause you're using the Legal Vision Pro,

01:20:23   you can't share those with your UK account and vice versa.

01:20:26   - Even though my US account is a part of my family,

01:20:31   purchases and subscriptions do not share.

01:20:35   - Well, okay.

01:20:36   There are some weird asterisks to this.

01:20:38   Some do, some don't, and I couldn't even tell you why.

01:20:41   Like Carrot Weather, that shares.

01:20:45   Apple TV, Apple Music, doesn't.

01:20:47   But also not all third party apps do either.

01:20:50   But also the way in which I did it is a hack.

01:20:53   You cannot invite someone to a family share

01:20:58   via the typical means if they are not in the same country

01:21:02   as you, unless you airdrop that invite.

01:21:06   - Are you kidding me?

01:21:08   - That, I found it on Reddit.

01:21:09   You cannot invite someone, but if you airdrop it, it works.

01:21:13   So the reason I did it is so I still, you know,

01:21:17   I've benefited from all the iCloud stuff, right?

01:21:19   So it's in the iCloud account.

01:21:20   So it has like storage, backups and all that kind of stuff

01:21:25   is on my account.

01:21:26   And there are some things that I benefit from,

01:21:28   but not the stuff that I really wanted,

01:21:29   which was like, I wanted to have my Apple One stuff share,

01:21:32   but that doesn't.

01:21:33   But yeah, it doesn't work.

01:21:35   I wish it did, but it doesn't.

01:21:37   Like purchases don't share either,

01:21:39   like just standard purchases.

01:21:40   Some subscriptions do for some unbeknownst reason to me

01:21:44   with some third party apps, but not all of them.

01:21:47   - Well, there you go.

01:21:48   I guess they use airdrop to like prove that you're together.

01:21:52   - Yeah, but that's not how it works

01:21:54   with regular family sharing, right?

01:21:55   You can just send somebody a text and it works.

01:21:59   - Yeah.

01:21:59   - So I don't know why they do it that way, but they do.

01:22:02   - Can I show you the next thing I'm waiting for?

01:22:05   - Yes. - To arrive?

01:22:07   Okay, so this is gonna get slightly weird, all right?

01:22:09   But- - No way.

01:22:10   - Okay, so check out this link in the Discord.

01:22:13   It's called the Air Cover for Apple Vision Pro.

01:22:17   So this is an adapter that sits in your forehead.

01:22:20   And the idea is that it lets you use the Vision Pro

01:22:22   without the light seal.

01:22:24   So without the extra,

01:22:26   so your eyes are directly in front of the lenses

01:22:31   and you should get a larger field of view

01:22:34   and you shouldn't get the tonal effect.

01:22:37   This company, Infinity One, they've been making Quest Pro

01:22:39   and MetaQuest accessories for a while now.

01:22:42   And yeah, I was able to put in an order today.

01:22:46   I got the restock email.

01:22:47   I put in my order and now it's out of stock again.

01:22:50   - Okay. - So yeah,

01:22:51   this is the other thing I'm waiting for.

01:22:53   - Do you think this guy shaved his head

01:22:55   just to be a model in this photo?

01:22:57   - Do you think you need a shaved head for this?

01:23:01   - Yeah.

01:23:01   - I mean, your hair doesn't get messed up, you know?

01:23:04   - Okay, fair enough.

01:23:05   - Yeah, I mean, it gets messed up anyway, so.

01:23:08   - I'm worried about your eyes with this, Federico.

01:23:11   I'm not gonna lie. - Nah, nah.

01:23:14   - Nah, you're good?

01:23:15   - My eyes have been through worse, so yeah.

01:23:18   - All right. - It'll be fine,

01:23:20   it'll be fine.

01:23:21   - Huh, this is interesting.

01:23:24   I already feel like I have so much pressure on my face

01:23:29   with the Vision Pro.

01:23:30   I don't know, I don't know if this would make it better

01:23:32   or worse. - So my thinking,

01:23:34   my thinking is if I combine this with the Solo top.

01:23:39   - Oh yeah.

01:23:41   - Right?

01:23:43   So basically I'm turning the Vision Pro into a helmet,

01:23:45   all right?

01:23:46   It's basically covering all of my head.

01:23:48   But I mean, I'm alone anyway when I'm using this thing.

01:23:53   There's nobody who can judge me besides my dogs

01:23:58   and they don't judge me.

01:23:59   They love me anyways.

01:24:00   So why not?

01:24:02   - All right, I put this topic in a couple of weeks ago.

01:24:07   And over this period of time,

01:24:09   I have become increasingly excited

01:24:13   about the person who has yet to share any opinions

01:24:17   because I genuinely don't know

01:24:21   if Steven uses his Vision Pro.

01:24:24   - Oh. (laughing)

01:24:26   - Actually, now that you see it, I don't either.

01:24:29   - He never talks about it.

01:24:31   We all talk about it, he never talks about it.

01:24:32   - Do you still have a Vision Pro, Steven?

01:24:34   - I do, I do still have a Vision Pro.

01:24:36   Let me tell you, I wasn't helping develop apps for it,

01:24:40   I would have returned it.

01:24:41   - Oh yeah, look at that.

01:24:45   - It is fully tipped into the I need it for my work.

01:24:49   - Why would you have returned it?

01:24:52   - So far, okay, so I will say my experiences,

01:24:56   they measure y'alls, I will say Vision OS 1.1

01:25:00   fixed a lot of the jitteriness and stuff that I was having.

01:25:03   I had the thing, I think Mike,

01:25:05   you and I were texting about this,

01:25:06   where I put it on and apps didn't know

01:25:09   where the ground was anymore, they were shaking,

01:25:13   and I've had the thing where all of the environments,

01:25:18   no matter which one you picked, are just white,

01:25:20   which really feels like you're dying

01:25:21   when you turn that dial and just whiteness everywhere

01:25:25   when you're expecting the moon.

01:25:27   - I had that, yeah.

01:25:28   - Yeah, that is like the ghost of Johnny Ive

01:25:31   inside Vision Pro, it's like coming to my room,

01:25:36   but he says in a British accent, like a ghost.

01:25:39   Could you do that for us, Mike?

01:25:41   - I don't know if I can, my accent's not British enough.

01:25:44   - It's true, well you can turn it back on.

01:25:47   - I don't think I can, I never had an accent like Johnny,

01:25:50   it's like a whole different thing, it's like fancy London.

01:25:53   - Yeah, yeah, and you're not, so yeah,

01:25:58   the big thing is, I don't have a place for it,

01:26:01   like I work on the Mac 99% of the time,

01:26:06   my iPad already is not a computer,

01:26:08   it's basically just a Hulu machine,

01:26:10   although right now I'm rewatching The Americans,

01:26:12   so right now it's in a The Americans machine,

01:26:15   and I got my phone, like I don't wanna use it

01:26:20   when people are around, right, so it's basically

01:26:24   quarantine to my studio, and I don't do

01:26:28   entertainment stuff out here, like I talked about

01:26:30   at some point, there's a use case where like

01:26:33   every couple weeks my wife has a bunch of friends over

01:26:36   and they like catch up and spend the evening together,

01:26:38   and those evenings I'm like banished to our bedroom

01:26:42   or to my office, and there'll be an opportunity

01:26:46   I think to like, oh yeah, like watch a movie in bed

01:26:48   on the Vision Pro, and that just hasn't happened yet,

01:26:51   but the thing is, it just doesn't fit in anywhere,

01:26:54   like I'm much more efficient on these other platforms, and--

01:26:59   - Yeah, but it's fun to use.

01:27:01   - Is it?

01:27:02   - Yeah, it is fun to use, like one of my favorite things,

01:27:05   I get to a point in the day where I'm like,

01:27:08   what should I do now, you know, before we spoke today,

01:27:12   I was like, ah, I don't wanna get into anything,

01:27:15   'cause I'm being lazy, and I procrastinate,

01:27:17   and I'm also recording soon, so like I don't wanna get

01:27:19   far into a project and I'm gonna have to stop,

01:27:22   so I'm gonna go watch some YouTube videos,

01:27:24   best place to watch YouTube videos, Juno, you know?

01:27:27   I just like go sit on my sofa, I turn the little dial,

01:27:32   I bring up a YouTube video, big screen, looks fantastic,

01:27:36   and it's still got my iMessage over there,

01:27:38   you know, I was chatting with you guys

01:27:39   while we were getting ready to start, like it's great,

01:27:42   it's just iPad, you know, it's like big iPad,

01:27:44   that's what it is for me, and I really like it for that,

01:27:46   it's like big, really good screen, fun to use iPad,

01:27:51   and I feel like I'm in the future.

01:27:53   I like it, I just enjoy using it, I find it pleasurable.

01:27:57   - And maybe I just haven't crossed that threshold yet,

01:28:00   I do feel like I've got comfort issues still,

01:28:03   in fact, just yesterday, I re-scanned my face,

01:28:05   and it's like the same size seal that I have now,

01:28:09   I've tried both thicknesses of the cushion.

01:28:12   - What band do you use?

01:28:14   - The, I've tried both, the dual one is more comfortable,

01:28:19   but way more fiddly, so I've got the solo one on it

01:28:25   right now. - Do you really find it,

01:28:26   but like, are you undoing it when you take it off?

01:28:29   - The top one I've left where it is,

01:28:33   so you can like put it on,

01:28:34   and then you just adjust the back one.

01:28:36   - Yeah, stop doing that, just put it on, adjust it,

01:28:41   and then just take it off, that's what I do,

01:28:42   I don't, and so I use the dual loop,

01:28:46   because I have the top one kind of pretty tight,

01:28:48   so it lifts the device a little bit,

01:28:50   and then I kind of wear the back one

01:28:53   kind of underneath the crown of my head,

01:28:55   like, and I find that to be quite comfortable,

01:28:57   it balances it quite well on the front of my face,

01:29:00   but I just take it off, like from the front off,

01:29:03   and that's how I take it on and off.

01:29:05   You will not find it so fiddly if you stop doing that,

01:29:09   like, if anything, this is now the less fiddliest option,

01:29:12   because with the Solo, you kind of do the little,

01:29:14   like the little wind up, wind down thing,

01:29:16   or what do we call it? - No, we know what

01:29:17   it's called now, what was it called, Federico?

01:29:19   - It's not rotating, dial it, no, twist it,

01:29:22   I don't know, pop it.

01:29:23   - You spin the dial, twist, you don't rotate the dial.

01:29:28   - Like it, twist it.

01:29:29   - You spin the dial, you spin the dial, turn the dial.

01:29:34   - But that's the way to do it, that's the way to do it,

01:29:37   Steven, just try that, like stop adjusting and adjusting,

01:29:40   and then it's less fiddly to take on and off.

01:29:42   But the reason I was expecting you would say something

01:29:46   like this is because you were not looking forward to this.

01:29:50   - Right.

01:29:51   - You were not looking forward to Division Pro,

01:29:54   like you've never really been excited about it,

01:29:56   you're interested about it, you've never been excited

01:29:58   about it. - Interesting, yes.

01:29:59   And I was afraid of the motion sickness,

01:30:01   and that is not a problem at all.

01:30:04   Including apps where you like walk around,

01:30:05   like what's the game like app that is so wild?

01:30:10   - Black box?

01:30:11   - Black box, even like walking around interacting

01:30:13   with stuff, totally fine, no issues with sickness at all,

01:30:15   which I'm so glad for.

01:30:17   But it's more of a thing like it doesn't,

01:30:21   it hasn't kind of earned its place.

01:30:23   And maybe like I need to think about the way you are like,

01:30:25   okay, like if I'm gonna sit down and watch some YouTube

01:30:28   in my office, I just need to like roll over there and try.

01:30:31   - Yeah, if you're ever going to watch a YouTube video,

01:30:34   go pick up your Vision Pro.

01:30:36   - Okay, I'll do that, I'll run that as an experiment

01:30:38   in the next week or so.

01:30:40   - Like start doing that, like as a thing.

01:30:43   And then you, 'cause that's kind of one of the things

01:30:45   that I've been doing.

01:30:46   Like if I'm going to watch a video,

01:30:48   I will watch it on the Vision Pro,

01:30:49   because it is nicer than watching it on my Mac.

01:30:53   Like it just, it looks better.

01:30:55   And it's a more engaging experience

01:30:57   'cause the sound is so good and you feel more immersed

01:31:00   in it, especially if you do that thing

01:31:02   where you have the outside go dark, right?

01:31:05   Like I really like how it darkens everything

01:31:07   around the window.

01:31:08   It's just like a very nice intimate experience.

01:31:11   And then you may do what I do, which is like,

01:31:13   well, now I'm here, let me just do this and let me do that

01:31:16   and let me do this and let me do that.

01:31:18   It's like start there and maybe it will become

01:31:20   more of a thing for you.

01:31:22   This is like, I fully embrace and understand the weirdness

01:31:26   of trying to convince your friend to use

01:31:29   his $3500 face computer.

01:31:31   Like it is strange, but this is it, right?

01:31:34   But I'm happy that you do have like an actual

01:31:36   real good, serious use case for it though,

01:31:39   like with WidgetSmith, like that's more serious

01:31:41   than any use case I have, I'll tell you that.

01:31:44   - Yeah, I mean, yeah, we're doing stuff

01:31:46   big time widget action, hot widget on widget action.

01:31:51   - Does David like you describing it that way?

01:31:53   - He does not know that I did that.

01:31:55   (laughing)

01:31:56   - We have lots of conversations about it.

01:31:58   (laughing)

01:32:00   - He's really said, don't say hot widget action,

01:32:02   as in the handbook.

01:32:03   - It's gonna be in your performance review.

01:32:05   - Yeah, probably.

01:32:06   But so yeah, and the other thing is too,

01:32:11   like the other thing I've been thinking about

01:32:13   is exactly what you said, like, do I have to force it?

01:32:17   Like, yeah, I spent a lot of money on it

01:32:18   and that hurt and makes me feel bad.

01:32:21   But, you know, something is a legitimate part

01:32:25   of my business now.

01:32:26   But the, I also had to kind of get over that

01:32:31   when it came to the iPad, right?

01:32:33   At one point, I just like made a decision like,

01:32:35   okay, the iPad is just not a computer for me

01:32:39   in the way that it is for other people.

01:32:41   And like, that's fine.

01:32:43   I don't know.

01:32:46   And maybe this will be in the same boat

01:32:47   and I use it for a couple things.

01:32:49   Maybe it's a YouTube machine, we'll see.

01:32:51   I'm just very, very conflicted.

01:32:53   - It 100% is more of an iPad than it is anything else.

01:32:57   And so like, once you embrace that thinking,

01:33:01   then you will unlock all of the possible things

01:33:03   that you can do with it.

01:33:04   And it's like, for me, that is,

01:33:06   I can go do Slack on this.

01:33:07   I can go do RSS on this.

01:33:09   I can go write on this and it's better

01:33:10   than writing on my Mac.

01:33:12   Same as it's better to watch YouTube videos on this.

01:33:14   If I want to just sit down and like text my friends

01:33:17   and like catch up on Safari tabs,

01:33:20   like it is better than my Mac

01:33:23   in like pretty much all of those scenarios,

01:33:25   like an iPad is.

01:33:27   And like, so for Federico, it's even better, right?

01:33:31   Because an iPad is more for Federico than it is for me

01:33:35   or you.

01:33:36   And I think once you kind of get into that mode,

01:33:38   that kind of thinking, it unlocks the potential things

01:33:41   that it can do for you, no matter what they are.

01:33:44   You know, even if it becomes American's machine Macs

01:33:47   or something, you know?

01:33:48   - Yeah.

01:33:50   Yeah.

01:33:50   We'll see.

01:33:52   It's also very early days.

01:33:54   I don't think we can really like harp on that enough.

01:33:58   This is the most 1.0 thing Apple has shipped maybe ever.

01:34:03   - No, I wouldn't even say maybe, it is.

01:34:05   - It is super weird.

01:34:08   And not just from like a bugginess perspective,

01:34:10   but like a, I don't think it knows what it is

01:34:14   as a platform, right?

01:34:16   And the Apple Watch was that way too,

01:34:19   but the Apple Watch had sort of immediate use,

01:34:23   even if it was confusing.

01:34:26   - I'm arguing with myself now.

01:34:27   I got too overexcited.

01:34:29   This works better at doing what it does

01:34:31   than the Apple Watch version one did or what it did.

01:34:33   Remember how slow it was just to everything?

01:34:36   Like at least this thing performs.

01:34:39   - Yeah, I agree.

01:34:42   - Right?

01:34:43   Like it does what it's supposed to do.

01:34:45   You know, where like the Apple Watch, I don't know.

01:34:50   It's between the two of them for sure.

01:34:52   Like, and on that version one thing,

01:34:55   like it is key to see what happens in June.

01:34:58   It's very important.

01:35:00   Do they take any big jumps?

01:35:02   They kind of should, will they?

01:35:06   Like what is VisionOS 2, right?

01:35:08   Like what does it look like?

01:35:09   I think that that is going to be very, very important.

01:35:12   - Yeah, and I've thought a lot about that too.

01:35:15   The timing of it's weird, right?

01:35:17   'Cause this product is new, what, in February.

01:35:20   It's four months before WVDC.

01:35:23   But is that enough time for VisionOS 2

01:35:27   to be a shift in meaningful ways?

01:35:30   Because the rumors were the hardware was ready

01:35:32   and the software is what wasn't.

01:35:34   And the software was catching up to the hardware.

01:35:37   And if that is true-

01:35:38   - They didn't ship any new ideas, right?

01:35:40   Like it's more ideas than execution, I think,

01:35:44   is what we're hoping for with VisionOS 2.

01:35:46   - Maybe.

01:35:47   - Show me all the other stuff I can do.

01:35:49   - Maybe.

01:35:50   Give us some, all I want is a place to put Windows

01:35:52   so I'm not looking at them, you know?

01:35:54   - Right, but like that might be it, right?

01:35:56   Like they built what they needed to build

01:35:59   to get Windows to show.

01:36:01   Now, how do you build upon that, right?

01:36:05   And VisionOS 2 can come out in December.

01:36:10   It doesn't have to come out in September.

01:36:12   - It's true, yeah.

01:36:13   - What about, what about, and hear me out

01:36:16   before we wrap up, a place to put your Windows, right?

01:36:20   What about a shelf?

01:36:22   - Imagine.

01:36:23   - Damn it.

01:36:24   - Imagine.

01:36:24   - The shelf.

01:36:25   - The virtual shelf.

01:36:26   The Vision shelf.

01:36:27   - Is that a shelf?

01:36:30   - It's actually a physical shelf

01:36:32   that gets drawn on your wall.

01:36:34   You just reach up and bring your Windows down.

01:36:36   - Like books, like apps like books, just pull them off.

01:36:39   That's really good.

01:36:40   That's probably what they'll do.

01:36:40   - Yeah, there you go.

01:36:42   - Well, I think that does it for this week.

01:36:45   If you want to find links to stuff we spoke about,

01:36:49   head on over to the website, relay.fm/connected/493.

01:36:54   I got the show name right this time, so go me.

01:36:58   You can also become a member.

01:37:02   Connected Pro is $7 a month or $70 a year.

01:37:05   You get longer ad-free versions of each and every episode.

01:37:08   You get access to the Relay Members Discord,

01:37:11   several members-only podcasts,

01:37:13   a newsletter that comes out each month.

01:37:15   It's a lot of fun stuff.

01:37:16   We'd love to have you join us there in the membership program.

01:37:20   You can also submit feedback via the link

01:37:22   in the show notes or on the web.

01:37:23   Please, no more shower feedback.

01:37:26   We're not gonna read anymore.

01:37:27   We're done, we're done.

01:37:28   We moved past the shower.

01:37:29   - Thank you.

01:37:30   - We're drying off, we're toweling off.

01:37:33   Time to move on.

01:37:34   But other stuff-

01:37:35   - Only in the evening though, only in the evening.

01:37:37   - Mike, you can't, you gotta...

01:37:39   You gotta, we're pulling the shower,

01:37:41   we're pulling the curtain shut on the shower.

01:37:43   - That's good.

01:37:44   - You see, the thing is, is like, you can enrage people now

01:37:47   because we're not gonna read the feedback, right?

01:37:49   - Yeah.

01:37:50   - It's like, now is the perfect time-

01:37:52   - The thing is-

01:37:52   - To get the hot takes.

01:37:53   - One of us still has to read it

01:37:55   'cause it's in the website.

01:37:56   We're just not gonna be reading it on the air.

01:37:57   - Yeah, but like then people don't get the satisfaction,

01:38:00   you know?

01:38:00   - Maybe.

01:38:02   - Although, oh boy, do some people have some things

01:38:04   to say about me.

01:38:04   (laughing)

01:38:07   - Yeah, yeah.

01:38:08   Can I just say, I'm just gonna say something.

01:38:10   - Yeah.

01:38:11   - We don't have to put nasty language in the feedback form.

01:38:14   If you disagree with something we say,

01:38:16   we wanna hear that, we wanna have a dialogue,

01:38:19   but calling people names and using language

01:38:22   that is not something we would say on the show,

01:38:24   there's no room for that.

01:38:25   - Genuinely, I mean, I'm cool with it now.

01:38:28   I've got a thick skin, like whatever.

01:38:29   So basically, I had some spicy takes about emulators

01:38:32   in the pro show a couple weeks ago.

01:38:34   We've had some, I think, some banger pro shows recently.

01:38:36   Today, we spoke about if the magic is gone or not.

01:38:38   You can, you know, sign up if you wanna know

01:38:41   what that was.

01:38:42   Genuinely, the most nasty feedback I've ever received

01:38:47   in the last week, which I really, I mean, I expected some.

01:38:51   I did not expect that.

01:38:52   Like some people, they just really love to steal video games.

01:38:55   You know what I'm saying, boys?

01:38:56   They just love to do it.

01:38:57   They just love to do it.

01:38:59   - Yeah, it was wild.

01:39:01   - Wild, wild stuff.

01:39:02   - Yeah.

01:39:04   - You know what I will say on that, actually?

01:39:05   I'm gonna say one last thing, 'cause now I'm fired up.

01:39:08   If you want to say it, put your name on it, right?

01:39:11   Say what you like to me,

01:39:14   but put your email address in it, right?

01:39:16   Don't go anonymous if you wanna say stuff like that.

01:39:18   If you wanna come at me, come at me,

01:39:20   but let me say something back, all right?

01:39:22   I've gone too far now.

01:39:23   (laughing)

01:39:24   I've gone too far now.

01:39:25   - I will say that person is a member.

01:39:27   Just keep that in mind.

01:39:29   - I don't care.

01:39:30   Cancel your membership.

01:39:30   If you're gonna call me names like that,

01:39:32   I don't want your money, you know?

01:39:34   - Yeah.

01:39:35   - Really nasty names, by the way.

01:39:36   - It was pretty, it was real bad.

01:39:39   - Yeah, it was real nasty.

01:39:40   - It was real bad.

01:39:41   That's why I'm a little upset,

01:39:43   but I am thick-skinned enough.

01:39:44   It doesn't sound like it, but sometimes, you know.

01:39:47   - Good.

01:39:48   - Put your name on it.

01:39:50   - Okay, if you wanna find us online

01:39:52   and say nice things to us,

01:39:53   (laughing)

01:39:55   you can do that on Threads, or Vatici, iMike, and isomage86.

01:40:00   We're also in Macedon.

01:40:02   Federico is Vatici@maxstories.net.

01:40:05   He, of course, is the editor-in-chief of maxstories.net.

01:40:09   Lots of great stuff going over there.

01:40:11   We didn't even get to talk about it today

01:40:13   because we had the EU.

01:40:15   I'm sure you're gonna talk about it on App Stories,

01:40:17   but multi-button has been updated to version 1.1,

01:40:21   and it is bananas.

01:40:23   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:40:24   We can talk about this next week.

01:40:26   There's a few things that I've been building, yeah.

01:40:29   - Yeah.

01:40:29   Also, there's a very handsome man

01:40:31   in your example screenshots.

01:40:33   - Yeah, that's you.

01:40:35   - Yeah, you are handsome.

01:40:36   - It's me.

01:40:37   - That's because you shower a lot.

01:40:40   - I do.

01:40:41   I'm gonna shower after this podcast.

01:40:42   - Morning, evening, noon, and night, you know?

01:40:44   - It's all right, yeah.

01:40:45   I mean, the widgets are so hot, they gotta cool off.

01:40:48   - A little widget showering.

01:40:51   - I got a question for you.

01:40:53   Like, one final shower question for you guys

01:40:55   before we end this forever.

01:40:57   Like, when you are in the shower,

01:40:59   do you feel like you wash your legs

01:41:01   as accurately as the other parts of your body?

01:41:04   - Absolutely not.

01:41:06   - Yeah, I agree.

01:41:08   - Yeah.

01:41:08   - Okay.

01:41:09   - I wash my legs, but not with the same vigor

01:41:11   as everything else.

01:41:12   - Yeah, yeah, it's boring.

01:41:13   Yeah, washing your legs is boring.

01:41:16   - I'm 36 years old.

01:41:17   I can't bend over that long.

01:41:19   You know?

01:41:21   I'm a tall man.

01:41:22   (laughing)

01:41:24   - I feel like I do a pretty good job of washing my legs,

01:41:27   and it's because I mountain bike,

01:41:29   and you get dust and dirt

01:41:31   on all of your legs. - All the work

01:41:32   to get some of the legs.

01:41:33   - I mean, look, if I have muddy legs,

01:41:36   I'm putting the effort.

01:41:37   - But I'm saying, that has trained me,

01:41:40   I don't mountain bike every day,

01:41:42   but it has trained me to wash my legs thoroughly

01:41:44   all the time.

01:41:45   I'm a big believer in the leg wash.

01:41:48   - Big leg boy, clean thighs.

01:41:51   - Yeah, but you gotta kneel down though,

01:41:53   'cause we're old and not flexible anymore.

01:41:55   - Steven is part of big leg.

01:41:56   That's why he washes his legs.

01:41:58   - It's not that I feel like I shouldn't.

01:42:00   It's just I know I don't.

01:42:02   You know what I mean?

01:42:03   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:42:04   - I know I should do a better job.

01:42:06   - Yeah, I was looking for an honest answer.

01:42:08   Do you wash your legs as accurately

01:42:09   as the other parts of your body?

01:42:11   I would wager that for most people, the answer is no.

01:42:14   Because washing your legs is boring.

01:42:16   It's like, okay, now I gotta wash these two things,

01:42:19   and I'm at the end of the process.

01:42:20   So I wash them, but not as vigorously.

01:42:23   - I have one final, final question.

01:42:27   - As the other limbs.

01:42:28   - How often do you use shampoo?

01:42:31   - Oh yeah, every time I take a shower.

01:42:34   I just--

01:42:35   - Oh, that's so bad for you.

01:42:36   - I know, I know, but I can resist it.

01:42:38   It's so nice.

01:42:39   - The problem, this is the thing.

01:42:40   If you start doing it, you can't not do it.

01:42:43   - So yeah, exactly.

01:42:44   - 'Cause then your hair gets all gross.

01:42:45   But yeah, I wash my hair like three times a week.

01:42:49   - Okay.

01:42:50   - Oh, at least.

01:42:50   - Actually shampoo.

01:42:51   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, at least.

01:42:52   - But not every day, not every day, no, no, okay.

01:42:55   - No, not every day, not every, yeah, yeah.

01:42:57   No, I kinda, I sometimes do it every day.

01:43:01   - It feels good, it feels so nice.

01:43:04   Yeah, anyway, that's it for showers.

01:43:06   - No, no, I have big shampoo comments.

01:43:10   - Incredible, let's do it.

01:43:11   - So during COVID, I grew my hair out

01:43:12   and my hair is curly and I use shampoo every day

01:43:17   'cause I just didn't know any better.

01:43:19   And a friend of ours commented that,

01:43:24   "Oh, I like your hair's going out."

01:43:25   I was like, "Yeah, but I don't know what to do with it."

01:43:27   And anyway, so I adopted the curly girl method

01:43:32   of washing curly hair.

01:43:34   - Yes, what is it?

01:43:35   I love it, you're a big curly girl, I love it.

01:43:37   You're a curly girl.

01:43:38   - It's a shampoo every set number of days.

01:43:40   I have a shampoo that I only use on Sundays.

01:43:41   It's like a cleanser.

01:43:42   This whole thing, you use co-wash other days.

01:43:47   It's like a whole--

01:43:48   - What is that?

01:43:49   - It's a whole cycle.

01:43:50   - Is that what you wash with someone else?

01:43:51   What is that?

01:43:52   - Yes, it is, yeah.

01:43:52   - Is that widget action?

01:43:53   What's going on?

01:43:54   - In that North Carolina shower.

01:43:55   (laughing)

01:43:57   - Oh, love it.

01:43:59   This barbie collects computers.

01:44:00   This is amazing.

01:44:01   - That's right.

01:44:02   - I love this.

01:44:03   - So it's a whole thing.

01:44:04   But the thing is, I recently buzzed my head

01:44:06   and I'm still following this method

01:44:08   even though my hair is too short to be curly

01:44:10   'cause now I see the benefit of this.

01:44:12   Like, my scalp is healthier.

01:44:14   There's good methods out there.

01:44:16   You don't have to use shampoo every day.

01:44:17   - Can you put a link in the show notes

01:44:18   to the curly girl method so people know what it is?

01:44:21   - I will.

01:44:22   I will do that.

01:44:22   I'm putting it right now.

01:44:24   - Also, you should grow your hair out again.

01:44:26   - I will probably at some point.

01:44:27   You know me.

01:44:28   I get--

01:44:29   - You have a whole method, you know?

01:44:31   You can't waste it.

01:44:32   - I'm going short hair, long beard for a while

01:44:34   like I did in '19.

01:44:36   - I like that.

01:44:37   I like that letterman beard.

01:44:39   That's what I want.

01:44:40   That's what I want.

01:44:40   If you're gonna give me something,

01:44:42   I want that more than the curly hair

01:44:43   even though I love the curly hair.

01:44:44   - Okay.

01:44:45   You can follow Mike on Mastodon at iMike at mike.social.

01:44:49   He is the host.

01:44:50   - What a ride this outro has been, you know?

01:44:51   I offered someone out in a fight

01:44:54   when we spoke about the curly girl method.

01:44:57   It's been a great time for everyone, you know?

01:44:58   - Yeah, people who skipped the closing chapter

01:45:00   are gonna really miss out.

01:45:01   - They're gonna miss out.

01:45:03   They're like, look at their podcast player

01:45:04   and it's like 15 minutes.

01:45:05   - I know.

01:45:06   I know.

01:45:07   This is longer than some of the other chapters this week.

01:45:10   Mike hosts other shows here on Relay FM.

01:45:12   He is also working over at Cortex Brand,

01:45:16   making high quality notebooks and other paraphernalia

01:45:20   for your workspace and life.

01:45:22   They're very good.

01:45:23   I have my solo notebook right there on the other desk.

01:45:28   - Oh, thank you.

01:45:29   - It's great, I use it all the time.

01:45:31   You can follow me on Mastodon, i.smh@eworld.social.

01:45:35   You can find my writing at 512pixels.net

01:45:37   and I co-host Mac Power Users here on Relay FM

01:45:41   each and every Sunday.

01:45:43   And we got some very exciting things coming up on the MPU.

01:45:45   We got a big interview coming up in the next couple weeks.

01:45:48   Got some show stuff.

01:45:49   It's gonna be good.

01:45:49   I'd like to thank our sponsors for making this possible.

01:45:54   Fitbot, ExpressVPN and Ecamm.

01:45:56   You can learn more about them

01:45:57   with the links in the show notes.

01:45:58   I'd like our members supporting us directly.

01:46:00   Go join at relay.fm/connected.

01:46:03   And until next week, guys, say goodbye.

01:46:06   - I do that too.

01:46:07   Cheerio.

01:46:08   - Bye, y'all.