494: Esse Tiere


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   From Relay FM, this is Connected, episode 494.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by NetSuite, 1Password and Nom Nom.

00:00:17   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Federico Petici. Ciao Federico!

00:00:21   Hello Mike, how are you?

00:00:23   I'm very well, I'm very well.

00:00:25   And we are also joined by Mr. Steven Hackett. Hello Steven!

00:00:29   Hey boys.

00:00:30   Hi.

00:00:31   Hello.

00:00:33   We're back together.

00:00:35   So another week of tech news to talk about.

00:00:38   European news.

00:00:39   I like tech news, I like tech, you know?

00:00:42   Yeah, we're into it.

00:00:45   If we didn't...

00:00:46   We're not on the box art for the show. I like tech.

00:00:48   I like tech.

00:00:49   Change the tagline in the CMS.

00:00:51   Yeah, and it's like making it look like one of those recommendations, like a movie review.

00:00:57   Tech, four and a half stars.

00:00:59   Pretty good.

00:01:00   Max stories.

00:01:01   [Laughter]

00:01:05   What's on follow up this week, boys?

00:01:07   I have, for realsies this time, the last piece of channel follow up.

00:01:12   No, no, no, no, no.

00:01:14   Why?

00:01:15   I regret asking.

00:01:17   This is like, I'm sure there's something in parenting about this.

00:01:20   Where like, if you say a thing and you say it's finished and then you do it again,

00:01:25   you're undermining yourself and then no one's ever going to believe you.

00:01:28   There must be a parenting thing here.

00:01:30   Okay, well we'll just move on. People won't know.

00:01:32   You're losing credibility on the internet, Stephen, by doing this.

00:01:36   Which is the most important thing, we all know that.

00:01:38   It's the most important currency.

00:01:41   And I actually now, personally, I think it is better

00:01:45   that no one ever knows what we were going to talk about

00:01:47   than to actually talk about the thing.

00:01:49   Okay.

00:01:50   Yeah, they shouldn't know.

00:01:53   So, were we going to talk about showers? Were we going to talk about green?

00:01:56   You'll never know, right?

00:01:58   But it's something we decided we would not talk about again.

00:02:01   But yet, Stephen, here he is trying to throw it in there.

00:02:04   And now it's gone.

00:02:04   Maybe we can put it in the pro show and make people pay for it.

00:02:08   GetConnectedPro.co.

00:02:11   What is it? GetConnected?

00:02:13   GetConnectedPro.co.

00:02:15   Yeah, we will talk about it in the post show.

00:02:19   Perfect.

00:02:22   Alright, just going to move that down to the bottom of the document.

00:02:25   I've done it. I've done it.

00:02:27   If you want to know what the follow-up is, you've got to pay.

00:02:30   Okay.

00:02:31   Hey, what's the MM1 model?

00:02:34   Why does it have so many M's in it?

00:02:37   Why did I have to...

00:02:39   We already have something called the M1.

00:02:41   Why did I need to do this?

00:02:42   Oh, now I have the MM1.

00:02:45   MM1.

00:02:48   So, what's the MM1?

00:02:50   M-M-M-M-A.

00:02:52   M-M-M-M-M-U-N-O.

00:02:54   M-M-M-M-U-N-O.

00:02:56   Yes.

00:02:58   Alright, so basically...

00:03:00   So, I think Steven did this.

00:03:01   Steven put in a block quote that if I read, I'm worried no one will ever listen to the show again.

00:03:07   Did you put this in here, Steven?

00:03:09   I did.

00:03:10   For that exact reason.

00:03:12   Okay, great.

00:03:13   So, basically, Apple has published some details on some promising AI models that they have built.

00:03:21   The key things that I have been able to understand from reading what people say about these models

00:03:26   is that this model particularly, the MM1, is very small.

00:03:31   So, it could, in theory, run on device.

00:03:34   It doesn't need 16 NVIDIA GPUs in a data center to do anything with it.

00:03:39   But this model is nowhere near as sophisticated as something like ChatGPT.

00:03:43   But what it should be able to do is carry out tasks based on various visual and text inputs.

00:03:50   It also has great support for context.

00:03:53   So, it will understand context of things and also context from previous questions.

00:03:58   So, I read a report on Macrum and they kind of said you could imagine having a stream of conscious-like conversation

00:04:05   potentially with a model like this and it would know what had been referenced before

00:04:08   and would be able to keep that context in mind.

00:04:12   Which, again, something very useful for carrying out on-device based tasks for your data.

00:04:18   So, people seem very excited about this because it's an interesting model,

00:04:22   but also Apple has been very forthcoming with their work.

00:04:29   And I think this echoes back to what we were talking about a couple of weeks ago,

00:04:32   which is like if you want the best people in machine learning and AI, you have to let them publish

00:04:39   because this is what they want to do.

00:04:41   And so, if you don't let them publish their work,

00:04:44   then you're not going to be able to get some of the best talent around, I think.

00:04:47   I think that's exactly right.

00:04:49   Yeah. Thank you.

00:04:51   We're going to talk more about Apple and AI later on, but just as follow-ups.

00:04:55   This is the story of the year, I think, in many ways.

00:04:58   I mean like literally later on in this episode.

00:05:00   But also in June.

00:05:02   Yes, but you meant later in the episode, Stephen.

00:05:05   I know, I know.

00:05:06   And we can maybe also talk about it next week if that's what Stephen wants to do.

00:05:09   But we're also going to talk about it today.

00:05:12   This podcast is now about showering if you're a member and AI if you're not a member.

00:05:17   If you're not a member.

00:05:19   And if you don't like that, I don't know what to do for you.

00:05:21   Quite the spectrum of content that we cover, you know.

00:05:24   It really is.

00:05:26   We received a couple of questions at connectedfeedback.com about sideloading and security.

00:05:32   So I'm going to read both of these and we can talk about it.

00:05:34   Ian says, "In last week's episode when talking about the DMA,

00:05:38   I feel like you overlooked an under considered security aspect

00:05:42   of the conditions Apple is putting on developers in alternative app marketplaces.

00:05:46   There are lots and lots of scammers who will love nothing better than to have some avenue

00:05:51   to get their deceptive, cheating, costly, nefarious apps onto an Apple device.

00:05:54   I appreciate Apple's efforts to protect us."

00:05:57   And Brian writes in and says,

00:05:59   "I'm really worried the iPhone app distribution, especially for free or very cheap apps,

00:06:04   gets monetized by making you have to go to some scammy software developer site

00:06:09   when there's five buttons that say 'download' and only one truly works

00:06:13   and the rest take you to nefarious websites."

00:06:15   So Brian and Ian are both very worried about scams.

00:06:19   Now Brian and Ian I'm sure are very nice people,

00:06:21   but I'm concerned that they have taken what Apple wants them to have.

00:06:29   You know what I mean?

00:06:31   You can say they've been Apple-pilled.

00:06:34   They've been App Store-pilled.

00:06:36   Because look, my take on this, right,

00:06:39   because also it's like this idea that we neglected that, no, we didn't neglect this.

00:06:44   We are aware of the fact that there are scammers in the world.

00:06:48   Part of the reason we notice is the case is because they're on the App Store now.

00:06:52   Scammy apps exist on the App Store right now.

00:06:56   And also, notarization is supposed to find this stuff.

00:07:01   The way that Apple has proposed notarization for the DMA is in part to find this.

00:07:06   As we've spoken about before, there is a human review element

00:07:10   where you're supposed to provide information and screenshots about your app

00:07:13   and a reviewer, who I guess is a notarizer,

00:07:17   will have to go in and check that it is as you say it is.

00:07:21   So there is an element there where it's supposed to stop some of this,

00:07:25   but as I mentioned, there are already scams of various kinds in the App Store.

00:07:30   Maybe they're not the exact ones you're imagining.

00:07:33   But the other thing is, have you been on the internet?

00:07:37   Like the World Wide Web, the Internet Information Superhighway,

00:07:41   this is the stuff that already exists out there.

00:07:44   Ultimately, again, if you're not happy about this,

00:07:47   then Apple should have let the rains go a long time ago.

00:07:51   Because the only reason they're being forced into doing all this

00:07:53   is because they did not heed the warnings that people like us

00:07:56   have been giving for literally years now

00:07:59   that this kind of stuff was coming for them,

00:08:01   and so now they're just here.

00:08:03   But I think that if and when this happens,

00:08:05   the fact that they have this notarization process,

00:08:07   I think that's fine, and I actually agree with it.

00:08:10   As long as they place in which they said no judgment

00:08:13   over the content of the application,

00:08:15   as long as it's legal, I guess,

00:08:18   then I'm fine with that.

00:08:20   Because they shouldn't be able to say, "Oh, we don't like this,

00:08:23   we don't like that," which is what Apple do right now,

00:08:26   but they are going to try and do some element of making sure

00:08:29   that the app is what it says it is.

00:08:31   Yeah, we'll have a link in the show notes

00:08:33   to an article outlining the notarization process

00:08:36   for these apps outside of the App Store.

00:08:40   And it's exactly what you said.

00:08:42   It's accuracy, how the app is presented

00:08:46   is how it is in real life,

00:08:48   functionality, so free of serious bugs and crashes,

00:08:51   compatible with the current versions,

00:08:53   using public APIs, not private APIs.

00:08:56   Safety, which I think is a big one,

00:08:58   apps cannot promote physical harm to the user or the public.

00:09:02   Security, so that's the malware, malicious code,

00:09:05   that sort of thing.

00:09:06   And then privacy, apps cannot collect or transmit

00:09:09   private sensitive data without the user's knowledge.

00:09:12   So all of that is in place

00:09:15   to protect users from this sort of thing.

00:09:17   But it does leave the door open for app marketplaces

00:09:21   to have apps in them,

00:09:23   or apps on the web even,

00:09:26   that Apple's content rules would not allow.

00:09:29   And there's lots of apps like that,

00:09:32   the categories of things out on the open internet

00:09:36   that aren't allowed in the App Store.

00:09:38   And through third-party app marketplaces,

00:09:42   there is now a vector for those developers of those apps

00:09:45   that they want to bring them natively to the iPhone.

00:09:49   But they still have to meet those accuracy,

00:09:51   functionality, safety, security, and privacy benchmarks.

00:09:54   And so far, this has not been changed

00:09:58   in the months since Apple sort of announced their DMA response

00:10:02   and where we are now, unlike many other things

00:10:04   which we've covered on the show,

00:10:05   and we've got one to talk about later today.

00:10:07   But I do think notarization will take care

00:10:12   of the most egregious examples

00:10:14   of what these guys are worried about.

00:10:16   But also to your point, Mike, I think it's well said,

00:10:18   there are things in the App Store now

00:10:21   that have things built in them that trick users, right?

00:10:24   You download some AI photo generator,

00:10:27   and it's like, yeah, the first four are free,

00:10:30   but then it's a $19, $90 subscription.

00:10:32   And you may assume it's for a month or a year,

00:10:34   but really it's for a week, right?

00:10:36   There's lots of things in the App Store

00:10:39   that I don't think live up to the bar

00:10:42   that Apple has set for itself,

00:10:44   and that will continue to be the case, sadly.

00:10:46   Me and you will consider that a scam, right?

00:10:50   Charging somebody $20 a week to generate AI imagery.

00:10:53   Yeah.

00:10:54   Apple does not consider that a scam.

00:10:56   They won't kick out an app that does that

00:10:58   as long as it tells you upfront that it's doing that.

00:11:00   Mm-hmm.

00:11:01   But we all know that that's not on the up and up, right?

00:11:05   It shouldn't cost that much, but that is,

00:11:08   I don't believe that that would be kicked out

00:11:10   of the App Store for that reason.

00:11:13   So...

00:11:14   'Cause it's the money.

00:11:16   I think that what some people --

00:11:19   some people are under this sort of delusional conviction

00:11:24   that there's no tasteless products on the App Store,

00:11:32   and that's not the case.

00:11:34   Mm.

00:11:35   There's plenty of these, like --

00:11:38   especially now with these AI utilities, right,

00:11:41   where you see these apps that charge you

00:11:43   for, like, 30 bucks a month to export, you know,

00:11:47   five images with an old version of stable diffusion

00:11:50   or something.

00:11:51   Now, that's technically legal, you know?

00:11:56   A developer can do it on the App Store,

00:11:58   but it doesn't make it tasteful, right?

00:12:01   It's still a tasteless, bordering, unscammy product.

00:12:06   Yeah, taste is a better way to put it.

00:12:07   You've done a better job of explaining that than I did.

00:12:11   You don't need to go to the web to find these products.

00:12:13   You can find them on the App Store.

00:12:15   And so now to pretend to sort of, you know,

00:12:17   erase your head from under the sand and be like,

00:12:20   "Ooh, what, the web? It's full of scams."

00:12:22   No, look, like, you got plenty of those things

00:12:24   on the App Store, too.

00:12:25   But technically, they're legal.

00:12:28   Remember, the sideloading comes with currently

00:12:32   a laundry list of things that Apple are defining,

00:12:37   which they are saying, if they let you sideload,

00:12:40   you are in good standing.

00:12:42   Right.

00:12:43   So, like, Apple is deemed that.

00:12:44   And for an app marketplace,

00:12:46   why do we assume that Apple is the only company

00:12:50   that can make good decisions

00:12:51   about the applications that are available?

00:12:53   [ Laughs ]

00:12:54   Right? What about OTTO?

00:12:55   Why could they not make -- or Epic or SetApp, you know?

00:12:59   I'll tell you that we don't make that assumption on the Mac.

00:13:01   So...

00:13:02   Mm-hmm.

00:13:03   So, lots of things here.

00:13:05   I understand concern that people have,

00:13:07   but, yeah, that's all I have to say.

00:13:12   Yeah, I don't think there are unreasonable concerns,

00:13:15   but I do think Apple has built into their response

00:13:20   things to help protect people,

00:13:22   even if they're outside the official App Store.

00:13:25   Which I agree with.

00:13:26   I think the notarization thing is actually a really good idea.

00:13:29   Me, too.

00:13:30   I think that it is --

00:13:32   I don't know how they get around it legally,

00:13:35   and I'm sure they have a lot of really smart people.

00:13:38   Meaning, like, for example, an emulator application, right?

00:13:42   Which I don't think that they would not allow,

00:13:47   but someone at Apple has said it's okay.

00:13:50   You know what I mean?

00:13:51   There must be some insane legal hoops

00:13:53   that they have to jump through with the notarization process.

00:13:57   But, yeah, good luck to them.

00:13:59   I'm pleased they're doing it.

00:14:00   Yeah.

00:14:02   Last time, I referred to widgets as hot.

00:14:07   Hot widget on widget action.

00:14:09   Yeah.

00:14:10   And the next day, I woke up to a Slack message from Underscore,

00:14:15   and it said, "Hey, heard y'all talking about style guides on Connected.

00:14:22   Seems like something maybe we could have at Cross Forward."

00:14:25   And he sent me a URL.

00:14:27   So, at this point, I was like, "Oh, great.

00:14:28   Like, we're going to -- like, this is a good project.

00:14:30   We should do this."

00:14:31   And then I realized I had been trolled by the nicest man on the Internet.

00:14:34   Yeah.

00:14:36   So, Mike, do you want to read these two entries

00:14:38   in the Cross Forward Consulting Style Guide?

00:14:40   Cross Forward Consulting Style Guide.

00:14:43   Editorial guidelines for Cross Forward Consulting, March 2024.

00:14:47   Widgetsmith, point one, widgets should never be referred to as,

00:14:52   quote, unquote, "hot."

00:14:54   Point two, widgets should never be referred to

00:14:57   as being involved in any, quote, unquote, "action,"

00:15:01   except as may relate to their interaction with the action button.

00:15:05   Should such an integration ever be built?

00:15:07   It's very good.

00:15:08   Winky emoji.

00:15:10   I like this.

00:15:11   What I like about the potential of this web page

00:15:14   is that over time, David could just keep giving his feedback

00:15:18   about Steven's performances on Connected.

00:15:20   Why?

00:15:21   [ Laughter ]

00:15:23   We just -- And he gets to a certain point

00:15:25   where Steven is allowed to introduce himself,

00:15:27   and then that's the end of his ability to speak on the show.

00:15:32   I just love how dry this is.

00:15:35   Like, it's such the perfect Steven troll, I think.

00:15:40   Yes.

00:15:41   Like, this style.

00:15:42   Can I ask Steven, did you get, like, red-faced or anything

00:15:47   when you read this?

00:15:48   I laughed.

00:15:49   No.

00:15:50   I mean, at first, I was like, "Oh, this is a good idea,"

00:15:51   and then I read the first one and was like,

00:15:52   "Oh, I see what he's done. This is very good."

00:15:54   I like that Steven got excited about the prospect that --

00:15:57   it was almost like a two-fer, right?

00:15:59   Where, like, Steven was like,

00:16:00   "Ooh, I get to write a style guide."

00:16:02   "Ooh, lovely. My favorite."

00:16:05   Nom, nom, nom, nom.

00:16:06   I mean, actually, it was just a troll,

00:16:08   which therefore is a two-part troll,

00:16:10   which is just great work.

00:16:11   It's the double troll.

00:16:13   Underscore's a good troll because he doesn't do it often.

00:16:16   Yeah, exactly.

00:16:17   Right?

00:16:18   And so when he gets you, he gets you every time

00:16:20   because you don't expect it.

00:16:22   Mm-hmm.

00:16:24   Bravo, Dave.

00:16:25   Bravo.

00:16:26   Yeah.

00:16:27   All right, boys, it is time for our favorite weekly segment,

00:16:32   "Teach Italian."

00:16:34   In our quest to teach Mike and Steven the Italian language,

00:16:37   we have now reached the final portion of the Italian alphabet,

00:16:42   the trickiest one to date.

00:16:45   Today, we are going all the way down to the letter Z,

00:16:49   or zeta, and to do that,

00:16:52   we'll have to face some challenging letters, my friends.

00:16:57   So today, we're doing R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z.

00:17:03   Mm-hmm.

00:17:04   And we're going to get started with what I believe

00:17:06   is the trickiest one of the bunch,

00:17:10   the R, or the rolling R.

00:17:13   So in Italian, this would be...

00:17:15   So it follows a similar pattern.

00:17:17   So it follows a similar pattern to what we've seen before

00:17:20   with the M, N, like it's M, E, N, E, L, E.

00:17:24   This one is "ere."

00:17:26   Now, the tricky part is in the sound in the middle, right?

00:17:31   "Ere."

00:17:32   It's the rolling R,

00:17:33   which I don't know how to teach you how to do it.

00:17:36   Well, like, here's my question to you.

00:17:38   Surely not every Italian can do this.

00:17:41   No, but I would say the vast majority of us do.

00:17:44   So the ones that can't do it, like me,

00:17:47   I'm an Italian who can't do this.

00:17:49   They would say "ere."

00:17:51   Okay, which is what I'm going to do momentarily.

00:17:55   Yeah.

00:17:56   Okay, go for it.

00:17:58   "Ere."

00:18:00   Okay.

00:18:01   "Ere."

00:18:02   Yeah, that's good enough.

00:18:04   All right.

00:18:05   Now...

00:18:06   So what's Stephen's gun for?

00:18:08   I honestly don't know how to teach you how to do R

00:18:10   with your tongue, so I don't know.

00:18:12   Maybe we could try that in person sometime.

00:18:15   Yeah.

00:18:16   All right.

00:18:17   That is some hot widget on widget action right there.

00:18:20   That's some hot alphabet action going on.

00:18:24   Now, this is the...

00:18:27   The next one is the last letter that follows the template

00:18:31   that we've seen so far.

00:18:32   So this one is...

00:18:33   Can I just go for it then?

00:18:35   Go for it.

00:18:36   "Ese."

00:18:37   Yes, perfect.

00:18:38   It's "esse."

00:18:39   "Ese."

00:18:40   "Ese."

00:18:41   "Ese."

00:18:42   Stephen, you still have the same problem.

00:18:45   It's longer sound in the middle.

00:18:48   "Ese."

00:18:49   Yes, yes.

00:18:50   Wait, was that his thing?

00:18:52   Did I hear something?

00:18:53   Oh, God, my phone.

00:18:55   All right, so this one I think is pretty easy.

00:18:59   The "T" is just "tee."

00:19:02   "T."

00:19:03   "T."

00:19:04   Yeah, "T."

00:19:05   The "U" is "oo."

00:19:07   "Oo."

00:19:08   "Oo."

00:19:09   "Oo."

00:19:10   That's a surprise.

00:19:11   That's a cheeky letter.

00:19:12   I like that one.

00:19:13   "Oo."

00:19:14   "Oo."

00:19:15   The "V" is kind of similar to the previous one.

00:19:19   It's "Voo."

00:19:21   "Voo."

00:19:22   "Voo."

00:19:23   "Voo."

00:19:24   It's not "woo," it's "voo."

00:19:26   "Voo."

00:19:27   So you have like...

00:19:28   Wait, so do you have "woo," "voo," "light?"

00:19:31   Yeah, yeah.

00:19:32   It's like that.

00:19:33   That's an "oo-voo" if we've ever seen one.

00:19:37   No, the "W" is interesting because we call it literally "double U," so it's "d'aupia

00:19:47   vu."

00:19:48   "D'aupia" means "double," and "voo" is for...

00:19:51   Oh, no, wait.

00:19:52   You have "double V," right?

00:19:53   "Double V," you put it, which is like in French.

00:19:56   Yeah.

00:19:57   Yeah, "d'aupia vu."

00:19:58   "D'aupia vu."

00:19:59   "D'aupia vu."

00:20:00   Yep.

00:20:01   Oh, that's my favorite so far.

00:20:02   That's good.

00:20:03   "D'aupia vu."

00:20:04   That's good.

00:20:05   That's good.

00:20:06   "X" is "eeks."

00:20:07   "Eeks."

00:20:08   "Eeks."

00:20:09   "Eek."

00:20:10   Yep.

00:20:11   Yep.

00:20:12   I feel like I knew this because of the iPhone.

00:20:15   I think this was a thing that you were saying.

00:20:17   iPhone "eeks."

00:20:18   That people were calling it iPhone "eeks" in Italian.

00:20:20   Yeah.

00:20:21   Oh, do y'all remember the iPhone math rumor?

00:20:24   Yes.

00:20:25   Oh, my God.

00:20:26   It's my favorite thing on the internet.

00:20:27   That's one of the best things ever.

00:20:28   And it was because of "plus," right?

00:20:31   It's up there, the iPhone math is up there with the headset, Steve Jobs Legacy Edition,

00:20:39   whatever.

00:20:40   Do you remember that?

00:20:41   No, Steve Jobs Heritage.

00:20:42   Steve Jobs Heritage Edition.

00:20:44   Oh, my God.

00:20:46   Anyway, so "eeks."

00:20:47   Okay, so this one.

00:20:49   This article written on 9to5Mac by Mark Gurman, which is a thing that I feel like I've forgotten

00:20:57   that he was ever there, that it's been so long.

00:21:01   It was 11 years ago.

00:21:03   The iPhone math?

00:21:04   The iPhone math.

00:21:05   Yeah, 2013.

00:21:06   Oh, and I forgot, Jon Prosser was the Steve Jobs Heritage Edition.

00:21:11   Yeah?

00:21:12   Yeah.

00:21:13   What happened to that guy?

00:21:14   He shaved his eyebrows and disappeared.

00:21:15   I saw someone talking about this the other day.

00:21:18   He just does the podcast.

00:21:19   He doesn't do the rumor stuff anymore.

00:21:20   No, he did a Vision Pro review that I saw on YouTube.

00:21:25   Yeah, he's like an Apple content creator now as opposed to a rumor monger.

00:21:30   All right, so the next one.

00:21:34   We have two left, guys, okay?

00:21:36   And the next one is really tricky.

00:21:39   It's totally different from English.

00:21:40   In English, it's "Y."

00:21:43   In Italian, I believe it's based on the Greek letter.

00:21:47   I don't know.

00:21:48   Anyway, it's "Epsilon," which is a whole word.

00:21:52   Yes.

00:21:53   It's like the car.

00:21:54   Have you seen the Lancia Epsilon car?

00:21:56   Yeah, I feel like the word "Epsilon" is a thing that I'm familiar with.

00:22:00   Like, it has another meaning.

00:22:03   It's kind of like "Epsilon," but it's "Epsilon."

00:22:06   "Epsilon."

00:22:07   "Epsilon."

00:22:08   "Epsilon."

00:22:09   Yes.

00:22:10   Yes, perfect, Steven.

00:22:11   Yeah, I guess the funny thing is here, "Epsilon" is the fifth letter of the Greek alphabet,

00:22:15   so they're just like, you're just playing with each other.

00:22:17   Rearranging.

00:22:18   Yeah.

00:22:19   Yeah.

00:22:20   And lastly, "Z" is "Zeta."

00:22:22   "Zeta."

00:22:23   "Zeta."

00:22:24   Yep.

00:22:25   Is that like Greek?

00:22:26   I believe so.

00:22:27   That feels Greek-y to me.

00:22:29   It sounds Greek-y, yes.

00:22:31   Yeah.

00:22:32   So to recap, "er," "se," "ti," "u," "vu," "dopyavu," "X," "Epsilon," "Zeta."

00:22:39   "Dopyavu" is "s-tier."

00:22:41   Yes.

00:22:42   Wait, no, wait, it would be "s-s-tier," eh?

00:22:45   "S," "s," "s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-t-r."

00:22:51   It's weird to me that in English, the "W" is literally "double U," even though we write

00:22:59   it like it's a double "V," which is the way y'all do it and the way French does it.

00:23:03   How did that happen at some point in history?

00:23:05   How did those things become parallel changes?

00:23:08   Well, I actually think I can help you with this.

00:23:11   Okay.

00:23:12   Hit me, Duolingo.

00:23:13   I believe in ancient Roman times, sorry about the crossover here, the "U" letter was shaped

00:23:22   like a "V."

00:23:23   So if you see old...

00:23:25   Ah, yes.

00:23:26   So I used to live across from a library and over the top it said "public library," but

00:23:32   the "U" in "public" was shaped like a "V." So I used to call it "perviblic," which was

00:23:37   very funny to me as a kid, but I think that might be why, that actually those letters

00:23:42   were closer in representation, and so we called it "double U" because it was double whatever.

00:23:48   I don't know this to be the case, but this is my guess based on the word that "perviblic"

00:23:54   existed.

00:23:57   Well, the alphabet is done.

00:24:00   I can't wait for next time.

00:24:01   Starting next week, boys, we're gonna start actually speaking Italian.

00:24:05   All the numbers?

00:24:06   I guess we can do the numbers first.

00:24:08   We can do the numbers first.

00:24:09   Just going to infinity?

00:24:10   We should start with one.

00:24:12   We can do the numbers, we can do the numbers, and then we'll start speaking some basic sentences

00:24:18   so that you can also start understanding the very basic structure of the Italian language.

00:24:24   Which is all I've ever wanted.

00:24:26   But there you go.

00:24:27   The alphabet is done.

00:24:28   Thank you, Professor Ticci.

00:24:30   You're welcome.

00:24:33   This episode of Connected is brought to you by NetSuite.

00:24:37   Quick math.

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00:26:07   Our thanks to NetSuite for their support of the show and Relay FM.

00:26:13   We're in that time of year where we're expecting WWDC announcement.

00:26:19   Probably, I mean, it could end up happening next week during the show like it did last

00:26:23   year where I think we were 20 seconds into the episode.

00:26:28   Last year in WWDC was announced.

00:26:30   Google IO has been announced.

00:26:32   It's on May 14th.

00:26:34   And so I guess it's kind of around this time.

00:26:37   But there was a reason I wanted to talk about this today, which is because...

00:26:40   Oh no.

00:26:41   Welcome back to the Quizzies, the quiz show within a podcast where I Mike Hurley quiz

00:26:47   my connected co-hosts randomly and by surprise on a variety of subjects.

00:26:54   So far in 2024, Stephen Hackett has 340 points and Federico Vittucci has 260 points.

00:27:02   I believe in you Federico that you can pull it back.

00:27:04   Today we're going to be doing a game called Guess That Tagline.

00:27:10   Every year when WWDC is announced, Apple reveals a tagline for the event.

00:27:14   Sometimes these phrases mean something that we can expect for the WWDC keynote or any

00:27:18   keynote.

00:27:19   Sometimes not so much.

00:27:20   I have selected five taglines used over the last five years.

00:27:25   I will read each to you and you will tell me what year you think they are from.

00:27:32   Scoring will happen after you have told me your answers for all of the years.

00:27:37   There are 15 points available for each correct guess.

00:27:41   I feel like I need a pin.

00:27:44   You can tell me them as we're going.

00:27:47   You can also write them down if you want to.

00:27:49   This is obviously from inclusive 2019 to 2023 is what we're scoring at here.

00:27:56   Does that make sense?

00:27:57   Yeah.

00:27:58   All right.

00:28:00   This is called Guess That Tagline.

00:28:02   WWDC edition.

00:28:04   We're going to start with...

00:28:08   Now see here's the thing.

00:28:09   Let me think.

00:28:10   All right.

00:28:11   Federico, you're going to get first guess.

00:28:13   Okay.

00:28:14   All right.

00:28:15   We have full stream ahead.

00:28:19   Okay.

00:28:20   You got to guess now, right?

00:28:25   2020.

00:28:26   Okay.

00:28:27   Steven?

00:28:28   Agreed.

00:28:29   Definitely 2020.

00:28:31   Okay.

00:28:33   We have the next one.

00:28:36   And Steven, you will answer first this time.

00:28:39   Write code, blow minds.

00:28:44   Gonna say 22.

00:28:46   Okay.

00:28:47   Federico?

00:28:48   22.

00:28:49   Yeah.

00:28:50   Okay.

00:28:51   The next one, Federico, you'll go first.

00:28:57   Code new worlds.

00:29:03   I will go...

00:29:04   I'll go with 23.

00:29:09   Okay.

00:29:10   Steven?

00:29:11   I know it's boring, but I also think 23.

00:29:17   That sounds like vision OS.

00:29:19   Okay.

00:29:20   Steven, glow and behold.

00:29:24   Glow and behold?

00:29:26   Okay.

00:29:27   I don't know.

00:29:29   2019.

00:29:30   Okay.

00:29:31   Federico?

00:29:32   Yeah.

00:29:33   I will go with 29.

00:29:35   All right.

00:29:36   This is terrible.

00:29:39   And call to code, Federico.

00:29:41   Oh, what's life?

00:29:43   21.

00:29:44   Yeah.

00:29:45   Yeah.

00:29:46   Yeah.

00:29:47   I mean, yeah, it's the only one I've left too.

00:29:49   Well, this is a terrible game show.

00:29:51   You both scored 30 points.

00:29:53   Full stream ahead was 2020.

00:29:56   Write code, blow minds was 2019.

00:30:00   Code new worlds was 2023.

00:30:02   Glow and behold was 2021.

00:30:05   And call to code was 2022.

00:30:08   So at the end of that game, nothing's changed except the points went up a little bit.

00:30:13   Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Quizzies.

00:30:18   Federico now has 290 points.

00:30:20   Steven has 370 points.

00:30:23   Until next time, I have been your Quizmaster, Mike Hurley.

00:30:27   Goodbye.

00:30:28   Wow.

00:30:29   I will say leading into that, I thought, oh, we're going to do what year things were announced

00:30:34   and I'm really good at that game.

00:30:35   And then you turned it into something that neither of us were good at.

00:30:38   So good job.

00:30:39   Yeah.

00:30:40   I really, it was like, none of you are going to remember these, right?

00:30:44   You have to just guess it.

00:30:45   And really the only one that was really guessable was 2020.

00:30:49   Like that, which is why I started with that one.

00:30:52   I also, I bluffed it.

00:30:54   I tried to bluff a little there.

00:30:56   Okay.

00:30:57   But I was not unsure about code new worlds because I was literally on that webpage today

00:31:03   to refresh for WWDC news.

00:31:06   That was the only other one I thought you could get just cause you might've remembered.

00:31:09   And I do feel like, glow and behold, I feel like you should remember what that looked

00:31:13   like cause that was the neon year.

00:31:15   Yeah.

00:31:16   And then, um, I think call to code.

00:31:19   No, the write code blow minds, but there was a lot of emoji that year, I think.

00:31:25   Yeah.

00:31:26   The clearest were full stream ahead and code new worlds.

00:31:29   The two that we got, right?

00:31:30   Yep.

00:31:31   Well, there you go.

00:31:32   That's the end of that game.

00:31:34   There we go.

00:31:36   So to the topic, Apple generally announces WWDC dates towards the end of March.

00:31:43   Our buddy Chance over at nine to five Mac went back one, two, three, seven, eight years

00:31:48   on how many are right when the dates are announced.

00:31:51   So 2017 was February.

00:31:53   That was the year they moved to San Jose.

00:31:55   So they announced it early and then, uh, March 13th, March 14th, March 13th, March 30th,

00:32:03   April 5th, and then March 29th.

00:32:06   So my money is on, is on next week.

00:32:10   And um, my money is also on the first, the first full week of June, I think.

00:32:17   So this year, June is one of it's, it's one of those years where Monday is the third.

00:32:25   And I think that's when it'll be June 3rd through the seventh, not the 10th through

00:32:31   the 14th.

00:32:32   Yeah.

00:32:33   So traveling on my wedding anniversary yet again for WWDC.

00:32:36   Sorry, Mary.

00:32:38   It happens.

00:32:39   It happens.

00:32:40   So that's my thought.

00:32:41   It sounds like we're in agreement on that.

00:32:44   Yeah.

00:32:45   And uh, now we just need, uh, we just need the announcement that we can, you know, some

00:32:51   of us can buy plane tickets at least.

00:32:55   Yeah.

00:32:56   Yeah.

00:32:57   Anything else on WWDC?

00:32:58   I'm excited about it.

00:33:00   I think mostly because the, like the AI stuff is hanging out there, but I'm also excited

00:33:05   about Vision OS 2.

00:33:07   Like yes, I think this is going to be a very solid OS year.

00:33:11   I think it could be.

00:33:12   You have different years, right?

00:33:13   Where sometimes, you know, like last year, like brand new platforms or whatever, um,

00:33:18   that was exciting or sometimes we're waiting on specific hardware and we think it might

00:33:22   be then, but sometimes it's just like, there's, there's big OS stuff and you kind of, you

00:33:28   know, it was exciting enough when I was considering just Vision OS 2, like that was exciting enough,

00:33:35   but now the closer we get to it and the more we hear about AI stuff, it's like, oh, this

00:33:40   is also, it's going to be monumental one way or another.

00:33:44   Like they're either gonna wow us or we're going to be like, oh, yeah.

00:33:50   And so that, that's also exciting.

00:33:52   You know, it was like similar to what we were talking about leading up to the Vision Pro,

00:33:56   which is if it's good or it's bad, it kind of doesn't matter because it's interesting

00:34:00   to think about and talk about for us anyway, you know?

00:34:03   Yeah.

00:34:04   I think we spoke about this with Vision OS 2.0, but if the software is what was holding

00:34:11   it up, like I'm just, I'm very curious how far they're going to be able to push it and

00:34:16   maybe not that much time, but because it's a new platform, like thinking back to how

00:34:22   much watchOS changed in the first few years, like are there going to be significant sort

00:34:27   of structural changes to Vision OS and that'll be really interesting to see.

00:34:31   But yeah, I do think it's going to be a, I don't think it's going to be a big year for

00:34:36   WBC.

00:34:37   I don't expect much in terms of hardware excitement, but I think it's going to be a very software

00:34:42   heavy year.

00:34:43   I have a good question here from the live discord from Eric.

00:34:46   So Steven, you're part of the development team now.

00:34:49   Is that going to change your perspective for WBC?

00:34:52   Well, you know, it's all about perspective when you're working with Underscore.

00:34:56   It's about developing that perspective.

00:34:58   And to develop it.

00:34:59   Yeah.

00:35:00   Yeah.

00:35:01   I think it will.

00:35:02   I've already kind of been thinking about that.

00:35:05   And it does make WBC feel like even more overwhelming in terms of like how quickly can I get up to

00:35:10   speed on things.

00:35:12   But yeah, definitely interested in what Apple could do software wise, obviously that would

00:35:17   benefit WidgetSmith and our other apps.

00:35:20   So it's going to be fun.

00:35:21   At least this didn't happen last year, right?

00:35:25   Because last year it was all widgets everywhere.

00:35:28   So you know, that would have been a bit of a trial by fire for you.

00:35:32   I would expect this year would be a like refinement year of widgets, right after into like introducing

00:35:39   interactive widgets and widgets on the Mac and widgets on the watch and stuff.

00:35:43   So it's maybe a bit simpler for you.

00:35:46   Could be.

00:35:47   All of the widgets.

00:35:50   Speaking of waiting, it's like a lot of us right now who care about Apple, which is probably

00:35:55   a majority of the listeners that we have to this program today are also waiting for a

00:36:01   iPad announcement.

00:36:03   This has been primed.

00:36:04   I feel like for about a year now that this was kind of the timeframe in which we would

00:36:08   be hearing about new iPads, namely OLED iPad Pro and an iPad Air, potentially a big iPad

00:36:16   Air as well.

00:36:18   The most recent reporting that I've seen, Mark Gurman is still saying end of March,

00:36:25   the earliest, but at least, but most likely going into April, either for announcement

00:36:30   or release or both.

00:36:32   There are lots of other rumors corroborating this.

00:36:34   Everyone's saying that they're shipping in April, no matter what's happening.

00:36:37   So we may get an announcement next week or probably the week after, but now there are

00:36:43   a couple of other things that are circling around this.

00:36:46   9to5Mac was reporting that the 11 inch may be in short a supply.

00:36:51   I think this is coming from some supply chain stuff.

00:36:54   It could just be that Apple knows which iPad Pro sells the most and is ordering accordingly,

00:36:58   right?

00:36:59   That's probably what's happening.

00:37:01   And then there was a rumor today that I personally don't buy, but we'll see, that there may be

00:37:09   a matte display option, kind of like a nano texture or something like that.

00:37:14   I want to know what you guys thought about that.

00:37:17   This is an interesting one because I really feel like matte displays are good for some

00:37:25   use cases and especially if you're working with design assets, for example, and you have

00:37:30   a window behind you and glare really becomes a problem there.

00:37:34   That is why Apple offers the nano texture glass option for their displays.

00:37:41   But I feel like they're really not that great when it comes to color vibrancy and reproduction,

00:37:47   when it comes to video or playing games, which seem to me like tasks that a lot of folks

00:37:53   perform on an iPad, like watching video, watching movies and playing games.

00:38:00   That is the reason why, for example, when Valve released the new Steam Deck OLED, I

00:38:06   didn't go, Jon didn't go and Mike, I believe, didn't go either for the matte display option.

00:38:13   We went for the OLED glossy display.

00:38:16   I just didn't need a terabyte one.

00:38:18   Like that's why I did the 512 or something.

00:38:21   But also like in watching video comparisons, and I know that I had this conversation with

00:38:25   Jon, it became quite obvious that the glossy OLED just made the colors pop a lot more on

00:38:33   the screen.

00:38:34   Whereas, you know, this matte displays always had issues with like haze or blurriness and

00:38:40   just making text a little more fuzzy and the color is a little more dull.

00:38:45   And it seems to me like that would be a pretty important downside for an iPad.

00:38:52   But I could also see, like, I think it's an interesting rumor at least, because I could

00:38:58   see a scenario in which some professionals may say, well, I'm using the iPad Pro because

00:39:04   I'm an artist.

00:39:05   Primarily I use it to draw with the Apple Pencil.

00:39:08   It's really important for me to eliminate glare and have a non-glossy display.

00:39:13   In that case, I understand the thinking behind it.

00:39:17   Well, similarly, there could be a lot of people who are like, oh, I read books outside of

00:39:24   my iPad and having no glare would maybe be good for that.

00:39:29   But you know, I don't know if an iPad Pro is necessarily the right product there, but

00:39:34   I don't know.

00:39:36   Maybe people who live on a nice desert, desert island somewhere or whatever, they don't care

00:39:41   if their iPad's expensive.

00:39:42   I don't know.

00:39:43   I can't speak to that.

00:39:46   The reason that I find it skeptical is unless Apple has developed something new, right,

00:39:55   it would seem very peculiar to me to be like, hey, here's OLED.

00:40:00   And also here's another change at the same time that's going to change the way the screen

00:40:06   looks.

00:40:07   Like, it just seems like that's maybe one too many changes at once.

00:40:12   Maybe it's just an option.

00:40:13   I think it would be an option.

00:40:14   Yeah, but still.

00:40:15   Oh, I have no doubt it's an option.

00:40:17   Sorry, I clearly didn't make that clear.

00:40:19   But still, here's the OLED iPad.

00:40:22   We're really excited about this new screen.

00:40:26   Also there's an option for a matte one, which changes the way this new screen looks.

00:40:32   I don't know.

00:40:33   I would find that to be peculiar, but you never know.

00:40:38   I think it would totally be optional because I assume it will come with expense, right?

00:40:45   But there's also this other rumor out there that the iPhone can end up with a matte screen.

00:40:49   It's actually from the same source.

00:40:52   The source says that the iPhone would be next year because it's a new super hard anti-reflective

00:40:59   layer.

00:41:01   And to me, that's more interesting than just the iPads.

00:41:04   Like, well, is the iPad going to use technology that we've already seen, like the kind of

00:41:09   fragile nano texture glass that you have to clean with a special cloth?

00:41:12   And if you lose that cloth, you have to buy another one while the iPhone is going to have

00:41:16   something that's maybe more easy to take care of or less fragile in a way.

00:41:23   So I'm very curious about, is Apple doing something on the iPad in this matte anti-glare

00:41:32   world just to do something different on the iPhone a year later?

00:41:36   And then the iPad's out of step or the iPad's matte options change somehow to the new thing?

00:41:42   I don't know.

00:41:43   Maybe it's not a matte coating, right?

00:41:45   Maybe these things are the same thing.

00:41:47   These aren't two different glass types.

00:41:49   It's one glass type.

00:41:51   And it's actually just an anti-reflective coating on both.

00:41:55   But the rumor says that what is coming on the iPhone isn't ready yet.

00:41:59   And so if that's true...

00:42:01   It's actually not ready yet for the iPhone.

00:42:03   But if that's true, their wording says it's just been released, the technology has just

00:42:08   been released to its manufacturing partners in China.

00:42:11   If that's true, I don't think it could also be true that it's ready for the iPad.

00:42:16   So I don't know.

00:42:17   It's like these weird like semi-conflicting rumors.

00:42:22   But I do think it would be an option.

00:42:23   I think for some people who use their iPad for certain things, it's a great option.

00:42:29   The thing that I thought about was...

00:42:31   It was not going to happen.

00:42:33   But the iPad mini, you know, we always see like Apple's photos, like it's strapped to

00:42:36   the leg of like a helicopter pilot.

00:42:38   Like yeah, I'm sure in that use case, a matte display that's not reflective would be sick.

00:42:43   But it's just going to be on the iPad Pro for now.

00:42:45   It's going to be expensive, potentially kind of weird.

00:42:48   But it does answer one of the questions we've had of like, how is the iPad Pro different

00:42:55   than the iPad Air?

00:42:56   And OLED would be one thing.

00:42:59   But my guess is that people who care about this, or even people who don't care about

00:43:03   it, they can see the difference more clearly between LCD and between matte and like regular

00:43:09   screen technology versus LCD and OLED.

00:43:12   So that's interesting to me as well.

00:43:14   Is this something just on the pro line for a while to help distinguish it from the iPad

00:43:18   Air, which seems to be growing in size and kind of matching it, matching it more?

00:43:24   Maybe this is how you get to that, like, do you remember the rumor that the iPad was going

00:43:28   to be like $2,000 or something?

00:43:30   Maybe this is how.

00:43:31   Like maybe this is how you get an iPad to $2,000.

00:43:35   You put two terabytes of storage in it and a nano texture display.

00:43:39   Yeah.

00:43:40   And then you have to take out a second mortgage.

00:43:43   Then you can have an iPad.

00:43:46   Exciting times, right?

00:43:48   So maybe next week, maybe next week will be iPads, A and WDC.

00:43:54   I mean, you know, you're saying about the differentiating differentiation.

00:43:58   Yeah.

00:43:59   Between the two devices, like how do you make the Air and the Pro different?

00:44:03   I mean, I do think that a huge part of that story now is the accessories available.

00:44:08   Like is, is one of the key things that tells these products apart.

00:44:11   Right.

00:44:12   And so there have been rumors of a new aluminium focused magic keyboard.

00:44:19   Maybe that's just available for the Pro.

00:44:21   Maybe there's a new Apple Pencil, it's just available for the Pro.

00:44:24   And that tells part of the story.

00:44:25   Maybe the Pro comes with half a MacBook Air and that's why it's so expensive.

00:44:29   Impossible.

00:44:30   Nobody would do that.

00:44:32   I'm really curious to know if that new magic keyboard will be compatible somehow with the

00:44:39   Vision Pro.

00:44:40   Like I think it would be so odd for Apple to release a new keyboard and trackpad combo

00:44:45   now and it's just an iPad accessory.

00:44:49   It's not compatible at all with the Vision Pro.

00:44:52   And as a footnote to that, I will also add, are we expecting an accessory refresh in the

00:44:59   spring alongside the new iPads as well?

00:45:03   Of what?

00:45:04   USB-C keyboards?

00:45:05   I don't think that's ever going to come at this point.

00:45:09   At this point, I'm just like, it's lightning forever.

00:45:11   Like, because every time I think it's going to happen, it doesn't happen.

00:45:14   So I'm just going to stop thinking it's going to happen.

00:45:17   The one thing about your potential keyboard that is like, I see what you're saying.

00:45:21   The question is, do you want to put a battery in it?

00:45:24   Right?

00:45:25   Because that's what would have to happen.

00:45:26   Right.

00:45:27   Yeah.

00:45:28   I don't have an answer for that, but I mean, if we're going aluminium, we're going heavier

00:45:32   anyway.

00:45:33   So maybe you're kind of in for a penny and for a literal pound, but that's pretty good.

00:45:39   And I don't know.

00:45:44   Like I, cause I can also see it in Federica.

00:45:47   They're just like, we have great accessories for the vision pro.

00:45:49   It's called the magic keyboard, a magic trackpad.

00:45:51   Sure.

00:45:52   Yes.

00:45:53   Yes.

00:45:54   You're not that what you're talking about.

00:45:55   And also like just use your hands, the most natural devices around, you know, your eyes.

00:46:03   Yeah.

00:46:04   Yeah.

00:46:05   Totally.

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00:48:10   A couple of days ago there was a workshop that the European Union put on for the DMA.

00:48:20   I don't truly understand the way that this thing came together but the term workshop

00:48:26   would seem to indicate it is free for everyone to just show up if they like but it feels

00:48:32   more like a bunch of companies were told they needed to be there and then there were some

00:48:36   other people that were there and they were having conversations about DMA and there was

00:48:40   lots of stuff going on.

00:48:43   Something that was really interesting that was pulled out, I saw the video of this and

00:48:47   Steve Tran Smith will include a link to 9to5Mac as well where they transcribe it.

00:48:51   Riley Testert, he created the Alt Store.

00:48:55   I think he also did an emulator Federico, is that right?

00:48:57   Oh yeah, Delta.

00:48:58   Delta, that's the one.

00:49:00   And then he created Alt Store which is the thing that exists right now for jailbroken

00:49:05   phones as a way to offer Delta and is making Alt Store as an alternative app marketplace.

00:49:15   I should change the name to Alt Marketplace which would be funny.

00:49:17   They won't but that would be funny.

00:49:19   And so Riley was there to ask questions to Apple about this stuff and his main thing

00:49:26   was asking about how Apple would protect a developer whose app blows up and they are

00:49:33   then on the hook for tons of money because that happened to him.

00:49:38   I think he said something along the lines of it would have cost 5 million Euro.

00:49:43   Yeah, 5 million Euro is how much he would have needed to pay when Delta blew up and

00:49:50   he actually told a story about how he had huge, huge, huge S3 costs and him and his

00:49:59   parents contacted Amazon to explain the situation and they waived it.

00:50:04   And so Riley was kind of saying to Apple like, "What are you going to do for people like

00:50:10   me who make a thing and then it goes viral?"

00:50:15   Again, previously mentioned, Underscore would have been one of these people, right?

00:50:20   That like Widget Smith blew up and he would have been on the hook for gosh knows how much.

00:50:25   So Kyle and Dear was representing Apple.

00:50:31   Kyle, I don't know what he does at Apple but is obviously a representative.

00:50:39   I'm assuming a legal representative and I'm going to read his response.

00:50:44   We looked at the data.

00:50:45   We didn't see many examples of where you had that viral app or an app that just took off

00:50:50   that would incur a huge cost.

00:50:52   That said, I don't care what the data said.

00:50:55   We want people to continue to feel and not be scared that, hey, I'm going to some parent,

00:51:01   I've got four kids who play around with this stuff.

00:51:03   I don't have 5 million euros to pay.

00:51:06   This is something we would need to figure out and it's something we're working on.

00:51:10   So I would say on that one, stay tuned.

00:51:13   Now I will put a link in the show notes to the video.

00:51:15   Like most of these things, you kind of need to read it.

00:51:18   Don't you need to see it?

00:51:19   Like when you hear it read aloud, it's hard to follow because transcribing speech is peculiar.

00:51:25   It's worth watching the video that Steve Transel clipped out.

00:51:28   For me, this made me simultaneously happy and annoyed because I loved this response.

00:51:39   I found it very valuable to see a person and hear a person talk about a thing and to explain

00:51:48   it in this way.

00:51:49   I believed them.

00:51:50   They looked at it.

00:51:51   They didn't think it was going to happen very much, which it probably wouldn't happen that

00:51:57   often, especially in Europe, right?

00:52:00   Very specifically.

00:52:01   An app can blow up and that's great, but then there's a portion of it in just one territory

00:52:06   and then you've got the million, right?

00:52:09   How often would someone actually be hit with a large amount of money?

00:52:14   I believed that they looked into it.

00:52:15   I believe they created their system around that, but it's so helpful to hear them say

00:52:22   that and then to also say the rest of it, which is like, we don't want this to happen

00:52:27   to people.

00:52:28   We're going to find a way to deal with it.

00:52:30   And it kind of, for me, I feel like all of this stuff that we've been talking about for

00:52:34   the last month or whatever, I think Apple could build their case better if they would

00:52:39   communicate this way about this more often, right?

00:52:44   We only saw this because the European Union streamed it.

00:52:49   We would not have gotten a comment, I think, in this way from Apple that could be published,

00:52:55   right?

00:52:56   I know that a lot of media, I think you, Fedorka, have been in briefings.

00:53:00   I don't know if this is how Apple talks about this stuff in those briefings.

00:53:03   I don't know what you can and can't say about that, but I just think rather than reading

00:53:06   these press releases that have been manicured within an inch of their life and sound so

00:53:10   hostile, I think it would be much better to hear more like this from people like Kyle,

00:53:16   who are good communicators and can speak plainly and clearly and in a friendly manner to people's

00:53:25   concerns.

00:53:26   I just found it to be refreshing.

00:53:27   I can tell you that they're never spoken in these terms.

00:53:30   They've never said stay tuned for changes to the core technology fee.

00:53:35   That I can tell you with certainty.

00:53:37   Because I guess it's like a similar thing, which is like the answers that they give you,

00:53:42   they are prepared in a lot of instances, I'm assuming, or at least because it's legal things.

00:53:50   And there's a lot of, we're going to circle back with you on this one for other types

00:53:57   of questions.

00:53:58   Yes, which that is an answer that could have been given to the question that Riley asked,

00:54:01   right?

00:54:02   But I feel like the way in which it was answered with the context and all of that kind of stuff

00:54:06   was just, I just think, just much kinder, friendlier, like open.

00:54:14   Feels like that they were willing to have a discussion, which I guess that was the point

00:54:19   of the workshops and maybe they needed to make sure they sent someone who had that manner.

00:54:22   I don't know.

00:54:24   Definitely seems to me like a friendlier manner and tone than Phil Schiller.

00:54:31   Like yeah, so I feel like what's interesting here is not necessarily the maybe required

00:54:41   compliance, which we're going to talk about in a second, and the requirement forced by

00:54:49   the EU to change the core technology fee.

00:54:52   But what I think is really interesting in reading between the lines is the recognition

00:54:59   of the perception problem.

00:55:04   When Kyle Andier says we want people to continue to feel and not be scared that, hey, you know,

00:55:12   like the thought of if I develop on Apple platforms and I do this, I may incur some

00:55:20   horrible costs.

00:55:22   Therefore, I'm never going to be developing for Apple platforms.

00:55:26   Like that perception problem is, I think, what Apple is recognizing here.

00:55:31   Like you don't want people to think that, oh, if you make an app on Apple platforms

00:55:37   in Europe, you know, those guys in America are going to charge you five million euros.

00:55:42   Like that quickly becomes a meme and a perception issue that you want to eradicate right away.

00:55:49   And so I think, first of all, this was an excellent question and example by Riley.

00:55:55   He's the perfect person.

00:55:56   And I will just say, because I've said it, Riley was also very respectful and asked this

00:56:00   question in a very open and like, yes, kind manner, like with compliments and stuff like

00:56:05   that first.

00:56:06   Like I just thought the entire exchange was really good.

00:56:09   Maybe Kyle could more easily answer in that manner because Riley wasn't coming in and

00:56:12   fighting, you know, I don't know.

00:56:14   But like it was a great exchange.

00:56:16   It's like a few minutes long and it's definitely worth watching.

00:56:22   Also in an interview with Reuters, EU commissioner Margaret Vestager said, "There are things

00:56:27   that we take a keen interest in.

00:56:29   For instance, if the new Apple fee structure will de facto not make it in any way attractive

00:56:34   to use the benefits of the DMA, that kind of thing is what we will be investigating."

00:56:39   Yeah, there you go.

00:56:40   This quote to me sounds like the European commission is okay with the CTF in theory.

00:56:51   But if there is an issue, they will want it changed.

00:56:57   Right?

00:56:58   Like, this is what she's saying, right?

00:56:59   Like if it becomes a thing that now no one's doing it, except the people that can definitely

00:57:05   afford it, then we'll investigate that.

00:57:08   Like if this was done to protect and defend customers, but if the only, you know, and

00:57:15   developers and, but if the only developers and customers who can take advantage of these

00:57:20   are Spotify and Spotify users, then what's the point, right?

00:57:24   Like when they're saying de facto not make it in any way attractive to use the benefits

00:57:30   of the DMA, like we made the law, you complied to the law, but you complied in a way that

00:57:35   it doesn't make it attractive at all to respect this.

00:57:39   Therefore, it's all useless.

00:57:41   Like the way you complied doesn't make it like something that people aspire to take

00:57:49   advantage of and therefore it's a useless regulation.

00:57:53   And so that's what they're looking into.

00:57:54   Like and I think this, this con like that exchange and this comment from the commissioner,

00:58:00   they go so well together because there are two sides of the same coin, the developer

00:58:05   perspective and the EU perspective of like, well, yeah, the CTF may be okay, but you've

00:58:11   done it in such a way that what are the developers that are going to be taking advantage of this?

00:58:16   And so I remain convinced that we're going to see some changes on this front, either

00:58:22   intentionally from Apple or mandated by the EU.

00:58:26   I don't think it's soon though.

00:58:27   No.

00:58:28   Yeah, it may not be soon in terms of our game that we're playing.

00:58:32   Yeah.

00:58:33   It may not be within next week.

00:58:35   Yes.

00:58:36   Like, you know how things have been like coming out of a fast clip, right?

00:58:39   But it feels to me that significant, any significant change to the core technology fee might be

00:58:46   a ways away, except Apple maybe doing some kind of clarification.

00:58:51   Maybe around age could be a way that they do it.

00:58:54   Like, you know, an under 18 developer maybe wouldn't pay.

00:58:57   I don't know how they're going to deal with that, but if that even makes sense to have

00:59:01   as a...

00:59:02   Or raise the threshold or something for million downloads, maybe.

00:59:07   Yeah.

00:59:08   There's parameters they could adjust, I think, to take care of some of the more egregious

00:59:13   side effects of it.

00:59:14   I don't think the European Commission is saying Apple shouldn't be able to make money for

00:59:20   the technology they provide, right?

00:59:22   They're not saying this is, this thing has to go.

00:59:26   But I do think the point is well taken that they, they being the European Commission,

00:59:32   do want to make sure that the DMA and these changes like don't push people out of the

00:59:38   market in terms of developing for this platform, right?

00:59:42   And there are real risks if you run afoul of the CTF and you got to write a big check.

00:59:48   So I do suspect that the parameters will change.

00:59:52   One of the things to remember about the European Union at large is that it is a capitalist

01:00:00   society with socialist tendencies.

01:00:03   Like, that's the difference.

01:00:05   It's not like no one can make money, but it's also remember that people need to be

01:00:11   looked after as well.

01:00:13   Like it's what we have here in the UK too, right?

01:00:16   Where it's like we're a capitalist nation, but we have a social safety net.

01:00:21   Like, and so I think it's worth remembering that the like the European Commission is not

01:00:25   saying that companies can't make money.

01:00:29   They're just saying it has to continue to benefit the people.

01:00:32   Would you say that's a fair assessment Federico?

01:00:34   Yeah, I think so.

01:00:36   I think so.

01:00:37   Yeah.

01:00:38   I mean, clearly this is an ongoing process, right?

01:00:41   We've seen these changes and I suspect we will see more of them.

01:00:46   What's interesting to me is just because this is not really the way legislation works in

01:00:52   the US usually is that we were now in the era of the DMA, but these companies and not

01:00:59   just Apple, but these companies, Google, the same thing, their responses and the rules

01:01:04   around it are changing as these things get sorted out in real time.

01:01:09   And I don't know, that's just like a different way of operating than I think what normally

01:01:14   happens in the US.

01:01:17   And I do wonder like how long will it be until we see the first alternative at marketplace?

01:01:21   Like I don't think there is one yet as far as I know.

01:01:25   Is that because Apple's fenced it in a way that no one is willing to risk it?

01:01:29   Is it that people are like epic, right?

01:01:32   They've got their developer account back.

01:01:34   They're going to do it.

01:01:35   Are they waiting for some of these things to get settled out, kind of sorted out until

01:01:40   they do it?

01:01:41   I'm just curious when we start seeing the actual impacts of this to end users.

01:01:49   Epic have said by the end of the year, I think they announced that pretty recently.

01:01:54   Altstore said initially that they were targeting March, I think.

01:02:00   And yeah, and I'm looking at their masterdom right now and they've had a bunch of posts

01:02:04   in February that would suggest that they were targeting March.

01:02:07   But they have to be submitted to Apple for review and that review should take longer

01:02:15   than a normal app, right?

01:02:18   You would assume, right?

01:02:21   I mean, should is in the sense of what you imagine Apple's going to look at.

01:02:25   They got to really scrutinize those.

01:02:28   So I expect within the coming weeks, there will be the first one and it will be very

01:02:35   exciting for everyone.

01:02:37   Yeah.

01:02:38   I'm excited because one of us will potentially be able to have firsthand experience with

01:02:44   your secret Italian.

01:02:46   Some hoops will need to be jumped through, but yes, Federico I'm sure will be able to

01:02:49   experience it somehow.

01:02:50   Vittucci_EU@icloud.com or whatever.

01:02:56   Secret EU account.

01:02:57   Yeah.

01:02:58   This is not a document.

01:02:59   Do you see that they're going to change Apple ID to Apple account?

01:03:03   That's a good change.

01:03:04   Yeah, I saw that rumor.

01:03:05   I like that.

01:03:06   I mean, it's so much better.

01:03:07   Apple account app, you know, it's yeah.

01:03:09   Is it going to be the Apple logo and then account?

01:03:12   Yes.

01:03:13   Probably.

01:03:14   Yes.

01:03:15   Right?

01:03:16   That's what they're going to do, right?

01:03:17   Why is that better?

01:03:19   Why is that?

01:03:20   It's cleaner.

01:03:21   It sounds more natural, like Apple ID, you know, it sounds like a, like a government

01:03:26   ID or something.

01:03:28   And maybe it's like, it's, it's maybe a little bit muddier now because of face ID, touch

01:03:32   ID, Optic ID, and then you got like another ID and it's like, what is that?

01:03:37   It's an Apple ID.

01:03:38   Apple looks like, no, that's not, that's not how that works.

01:03:41   Your Apple account.

01:03:42   Yeah.

01:03:43   Yeah.

01:03:44   My Apple account.

01:03:45   Yeah.

01:03:46   Okay.

01:03:47   Fair enough.

01:03:48   Apple account.

01:03:49   Apple account.

01:03:50   You got to have an Apple account at the Apple bank.

01:03:51   Oh yeah.

01:03:52   I'm not going to join this, speaking of Apple account, uh, as of, I think it was a 0.4,

01:03:59   Apple has redesigned the purchase history page that you can get to via various methods,

01:04:05   including the app store.

01:04:07   And so it now, there's a couple of things that's going on here.

01:04:10   When you go to your, your Apple account and then go to purchase history, you can see the

01:04:16   things you have bought, but it is apps and content.

01:04:20   Yes.

01:04:21   So you get all of that.

01:04:23   Plus you can now define date ranges.

01:04:28   So 30 days, 90 days this year, last year or custom, you can select from free and paid

01:04:34   the type of media.

01:04:35   And if you're in a family account who bought something, which is by the way, I, you know,

01:04:40   some things happen like, why did they do this?

01:04:42   I like that this exists, but it's funny to me that somebody did it.

01:04:45   I could imagine this kind of thing started because there was like a meme a while ago,

01:04:49   looking at their first apps and then maybe someone was like, Ooh, we should, we should

01:04:52   do something with that.

01:04:54   And so I wanted to ask a couple of questions of us all today, which is what is the first

01:04:58   media purchased on our Apple accounts?

01:05:02   And also what was the first app that we paid money for?

01:05:08   I will start with, I genuinely don't know.

01:05:11   All right.

01:05:12   Before you ask me on the 4th of December, 2006 was the first purchase on my Apple account.

01:05:18   And for 79 pence, I bought the single without you by Mariah Carey.

01:05:24   I don't even know this song like in my mind.

01:05:27   Like I don't know.

01:05:29   I don't know why this happened because the next day I bought the robbers and cowards

01:05:35   album from Cold War kids, which was definitely more my style of music at the time, because

01:05:40   then just like two weeks later, I bought stop the clocks by Oasis.

01:05:44   I don't know why the first thing I bought was without you by Mariah Carey on the 4th

01:05:49   of December, 2006.

01:05:51   It was not fitting with my musical taste at the time.

01:05:54   So there you go.

01:05:55   Okay.

01:05:56   What about you, Steven?

01:05:58   So it's just, it's just loading up here.

01:06:01   And cause I was trying to find the dates.

01:06:03   I didn't write down the dates and the, and the thing, but, um, in the media sign, these

01:06:11   are, I know these were all in 2008, but these were in 2008, uh, was the Italian job film

01:06:17   from 2003.

01:06:18   Bought that five years ago.

01:06:20   Uh, so that's good.

01:06:22   Okay.

01:06:23   Here it goes.

01:06:24   No, it did load.

01:06:25   It was just spinning for a second.

01:06:26   Uh, so that would have been in, like I said, 2008, uh, February 2nd, 2008.

01:06:32   This is the Jason Statham.

01:06:33   Yeah.

01:06:34   New mini one, right?

01:06:36   Yep.

01:06:38   And then in, uh, the second media piece, by the way, uh, such great Heights by the puzzle

01:06:43   service.

01:06:44   Oh, that's a good one on brand.

01:06:48   Uh, the first app I purchased.

01:06:52   Uh, so are you jumping ahead?

01:06:54   We didn't get today.

01:06:55   Oh, sorry.

01:06:56   Sorry.

01:06:57   We're not doing apps.

01:06:58   We're not doing apps.

01:06:59   I am ashamed to admit that in my days of youth, I was, I was very into pirating media, which

01:07:11   is something that I regret and something that I have tried to, uh, you know, we all grew

01:07:18   up in the age of lime wire and we were from that time where you couldn't get digital music

01:07:25   like and then I've tried to, you know, become a better person.

01:07:30   And you know, now I have my personal music collection just today, Mike, you know, I pre-ordered

01:07:35   the upcoming reissue of the supersonic single by Oasis on CD and it's coming out in April.

01:07:42   So anyway, on CD, yes, those are doing a seven inch disc version, but, uh, yeah, I'm doing

01:07:49   the CD.

01:07:50   Anyway, I w I wasn't buying a lot of music when I was younger and I was also very late

01:07:57   to the Apple ecosystem.

01:07:58   So my first media purchase is a song that I bought on August 3rd, 2010, the catalyst

01:08:07   by Linkin Park.

01:08:08   Ooh, that's good.

01:08:09   That's a, that's a good song.

01:08:12   It's a good song.

01:08:13   Um, now I was trying to look like what's my first movie that, but you cannot filter by

01:08:19   movies in this, in this purchase history, right?

01:08:22   Because I only have apps, music, videos, books, Apple care plus and other.

01:08:29   So there's no movie category.

01:08:31   So I wouldn't know how to find them.

01:08:34   Now just be video when that would just be movies and TV shows.

01:08:37   Uh, so if I do video, it says one result in 2010 from pole to pole planet earth, but it

01:08:47   says zero dollars.

01:08:49   That was a real like, uh, uh, jump scare, you know, like in the beginning, like where

01:08:56   is this going?

01:08:57   And then it's okay.

01:08:58   It's a planet earth thing.

01:08:59   Let's see two results in 2011, two results in 2011 for videos.

01:09:02   Uh, okay.

01:09:03   All right.

01:09:05   So this is interesting.

01:09:06   So uh, in 2011, oh, I bought a bunch of stuff in 2011.

01:09:10   Uh, oh, I bought the, oh, this is a, this is interesting.

01:09:16   The dancers, the show goes on a music video.

01:09:20   Is this, um, Oh, what's his name?

01:09:23   The uh, the rapper.

01:09:27   Come on.

01:09:28   Uh, I don't know, man.

01:09:30   Can I, can I just jump in real quick with my, my like my 2007 video purchases.

01:09:35   All right.

01:09:36   So we've got the first one, the video for the ghost of you by my chemical romance.

01:09:43   Then the video to 500 miles by the proclaimers very music video focused there.

01:09:50   Then the music video for Brian storm.

01:09:52   Then the first season of Bam Marghera's unholy union, which was, I think a reality TV show

01:10:03   about the skater.

01:10:05   Um, it was Lupe Fiasco by the way.

01:10:07   Uh, I bought a music video from Lupe Fiasco, but get this in, in, in this was, I don't

01:10:12   know what I was doing on June 15, 2011, but I was on a hot streak over here.

01:10:18   So I purchased master of puppets by Metallica.

01:10:22   Then nothing else matters.

01:10:24   Then enter Sandman and then hotel California.

01:10:28   You were in a mood, my friend.

01:10:30   The thing is Metallica wasn't available anywhere.

01:10:32   Right?

01:10:33   So like you had to buy it if you wanted it.

01:10:35   Yeah.

01:10:36   Yeah.

01:10:37   Oh, and I also got Cupid's chokehold featuring Patrick Stump.

01:10:39   Now that's a good song.

01:10:41   Um, okay.

01:10:42   Well, this is, this is a, on the same day I also downloaded Mr. Reader from the app

01:10:48   store.

01:10:49   Do you remember Mr. We're talking about apps yet.

01:10:50   Yeah.

01:10:51   No, we're not talking about apps.

01:10:52   Okay.

01:10:53   Okay.

01:10:54   So anyway, Linkin Park, I missed them every day.

01:10:56   Me too.

01:10:57   No.

01:10:58   All right.

01:10:59   We're doing apps.

01:11:00   We're doing apps now.

01:11:01   Okay.

01:11:02   So my first app that I paid for was Solitaire by Mobilityware.

01:11:09   And it was one pound and 19 pence.

01:11:13   Okay.

01:11:14   That's good.

01:11:17   So mine, uh, July 10th, 2008, the first day of the iPhone app store.

01:11:23   And there are a lot, a lot of free apps listed on this day, but the first one that's paid

01:11:30   Twitter-ific premium.

01:11:32   Now the price is not listed in the purchase history, but I found a blog post on the icon

01:11:37   factory saying that it was $9.99 for Twitter-ific premium.

01:11:42   I had free Twitter-ific.

01:11:43   Yeah.

01:11:44   I didn't get the premium version.

01:11:46   Yeah.

01:11:47   I had that big Mac Genius money at the time, you know, so I could spend 10 bucks on that.

01:11:54   I just realized that what I entered in my document was wrong because you gotta open

01:11:59   the, you gotta open the order details screen to get the precise time stamps.

01:12:06   Um, if you just stay on the, yeah, you, uh, because I was going by what I saw at the bottom

01:12:13   of the list in the main purchase history screen.

01:12:16   But if you tap on a day, you go into the order details page, which has the full on, like

01:12:21   the full timestamp and going by the timestamp.

01:12:25   Oh, this is quite beautiful.

01:12:27   My first paid app was on August 24, 2009 and the first app that I paid for was called tags.

01:12:40   Now I believe the tags was a delicious bookmarks client.

01:12:47   Do you remember delicious bookmarks?

01:12:48   Oh yeah.

01:12:49   Yeah.

01:12:50   Yeah.

01:12:51   The developer of tags was Ole Zorn, the same developer who years later create Pythonista

01:13:00   and editorial.

01:13:01   Yep.

01:13:02   Wow.

01:13:03   Yep.

01:13:04   Within actually within one minute on August 24, 2009, I downloaded a 2.99 tags and one

01:13:12   minute later from the same developer news rack and RSS client also made by Ole Zorn

01:13:20   at 4.99.

01:13:21   Oh, you know, so I now I realized I messed up too.

01:13:25   My first paid app was actually five pounds and 99 pence spent on I lingo French.

01:13:31   Well, there was a good reason for this.

01:13:35   I told this story before the day before the day that the iPhone came out, I was going

01:13:42   to Paris the next day.

01:13:45   So I bought a French language app, I suppose.

01:13:48   To learn French on the way.

01:13:50   I guess.

01:13:51   We were younger, you know, ready to go.

01:13:56   I thought you had an iPod touch first.

01:13:58   Yeah, but.

01:13:59   But had that been on the iPod touch?

01:14:02   Yeah.

01:14:03   No, no, no, no, no, no.

01:14:05   I got an iPhone before the iPhone 3G came out.

01:14:09   The iPod touch came out and then the iPhone came out later, but we got the original iPhone

01:14:13   here.

01:14:14   It was just later than the US.

01:14:15   I'm just saying like would that purchase have been on an iPod as opposed to on an iPhone?

01:14:21   Why would it have been?

01:14:22   I feel like you're using your time.

01:14:23   You had no paid apps on your iPod touch?

01:14:26   The app store wasn't available.

01:14:28   Oh, right.

01:14:30   Look at me.

01:14:31   Look at me.

01:14:32   I'm the genius now.

01:14:34   Give me your collection.

01:14:35   I have bested you.

01:14:36   You can make the next Apple history calendar.

01:14:39   Yes, I got it.

01:14:40   I'm going to do the Apple history calendar of Apple history calendars.

01:14:43   It's just going to be things that happened in your calendars on the days they happened.

01:14:49   Why can I not find any reference whatsoever of tags?

01:14:54   My first paid for app on the app store.

01:14:57   Because maybe you were the only person that paid for it.

01:15:00   No, no, no.

01:15:02   Man, I still miss editorial so much.

01:15:05   This is a good time in here, you know.

01:15:07   Crash Bandicoot.

01:15:08   Oh, so good.

01:15:09   I also downloaded Minigore on the same day, 99 cents.

01:15:15   That was like a zombie game or something.

01:15:18   Yeah, zombie game.

01:15:19   And Ramp Champ at $1.99.

01:15:23   And that was made by the Akon factory at the time.

01:15:26   Now it's been acquired by Socket Face Games.

01:15:31   Because I remember you were a little later, right?

01:15:33   So like that's why some of these things don't sound...

01:15:37   Because my mind, Ramp Champ wasn't there at the original.

01:15:40   Also quite amusing.

01:15:41   It said that I bought these on Federico's MacBook Pro.

01:15:45   So I guess I was...

01:15:47   No, because you could buy them from iTunes and sync them over.

01:15:54   That's how it used to be at the time.

01:15:57   And what a time to be alive.

01:15:58   Yeah, I mean really.

01:16:00   Kids these days will never know what it meant to use Evernote in 2009, you know.

01:16:06   It was so good.

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01:17:56   Bloomberg and the New York Times are reporting that Apple and Google are in discussions over

01:18:01   Gemini, Google's Gemini AI model being used as part of iOS 18.

01:18:07   The expectation from the reporting and just I guess from logic that has come to us all

01:18:13   in the intervening days is that Apple would most likely use their own models like the

01:18:17   MM1 model we spoke about earlier as a way to make things work on their own devices.

01:18:23   You know like you ask a question about some files and that kind of stuff and then they

01:18:27   would use Gemini if they use Gemini apparently they're also talking to OpenAI or had spoken

01:18:33   to OpenAI but they could use something like Gemini to generate answers to large queries.

01:18:38   They could do text generation, image generation, all that kind of stuff.

01:18:43   Essentially the way I've been thinking about it is if you imagine every time that you ask

01:18:47   a serious question and it says I found this on the web that it would actually now give

01:18:51   an answer that came from Google Gemini instead which might be a better experience than just

01:18:59   you asked me this question now click on one of these six links.

01:19:03   What do you guys think about this?

01:19:04   I think you had an excellent conversation about this and upgrade to Jason and I fully

01:19:09   support the theory that you discussed on upgrade of I think there will likely be a sort of

01:19:18   a local on-device layer of intelligence that's the Apple GPT we're thinking of and that's

01:19:28   the Apple made large language model that sort of decides where other queries should go right

01:19:37   and I believe that it would make sense for Apple to work with Google and say look we

01:19:43   want to make sure that in a future OS when it comes to Google integration with Safari

01:19:50   or with Siri right which isn't an existing integration like that nothing is new on that

01:19:55   front you already get Google suggestions from spotlight and from the Safari address bar

01:20:01   when you search but what if those web-based suggestions could be powered by Gemini instead

01:20:08   of the existing Google search algorithm that has been with us forever now and so I think

01:20:16   it would make sense for Apple to take a sort of a modular if you will approach to large

01:20:24   language models on iOS where there's a local intelligence local to your device made by

01:20:29   Apple that is capable of deciding does the user want to run a shortcut to want to make

01:20:36   a shortcut you know is this query about doing something with apps or looking for a photo

01:20:43   or editing a photo like all the things that I am so excited to find out about local on-device

01:20:50   Apple intelligence but for web-based content I mean you can fight me on this but it doesn't

01:20:57   really get any better at least from my perspective than Google search results still and not and

01:21:02   like not because Google search is the absolute best provider of web results but because I

01:21:12   think it's the best one when you consider international markets I have tried all of

01:21:18   these other Google alternatives I've tried them all I signed up for you know accounts

01:21:24   for all kinds of like alternative search engines and they only work in the United States and

01:21:30   to me that's that's always a pretty huge limitations Google lets me find English content American

01:21:36   content and Italian content and so it doesn't get any better from my perspective than Google

01:21:41   when it comes to web results and so for that reason I think it would make sense for Apple

01:21:47   to say we're gonna have our own intelligence you know you don't need Gemini to use a large

01:21:52   language model that edits one of your photos in the photos app right if Apple is doing

01:21:57   that sort of stuff in iOS 18 if they're gonna do the sort of commands where you can say

01:22:01   hey take this video chop off the first 10 seconds and then make it black and white and

01:22:05   share it with iMessage like you don't need Gemini for that sort of integration you need

01:22:09   an Apple large language model that's specific to iOS but for the web I mean of course you

01:22:15   would go to Google right and so I think it makes a lot of sense and it's not really even

01:22:19   that surprising and I don't think it means oh Apple is now you know they are so behind

01:22:26   they went to Google and they begged them you know Tim Cook got on his knees and begged

01:22:31   Google to please please let us borrow Gemini like I don't think that's what happened they

01:22:38   are behind though right like they're behind Google but Google is like one of the only

01:22:44   few companies that is that the because they've been doing this for a long time right so but

01:22:49   yes I don't think there's a begging going on but you know but but do we when you think

01:22:54   about it do we expect that Apple should be able to do this like this isn't necessarily

01:22:59   their core competency.

01:23:02   Apple doesn't have a search engine like they well they do but it's you know it's never

01:23:05   been a real product if I want to ask you something so if in the like the next Siri I think it's

01:23:12   pretty simple right now if you ask Siri a complex question that is about data that is

01:23:18   not yours and that is not on your device right so I'm asking Siri to I don't know tell me

01:23:26   what I don't know Liam Neeson and I'm just making things up and Liam Gallagher have in

01:23:33   common right and you know obviously the name but maybe even something else now that is

01:23:39   about data that is like a knowledge database that is not on my device so obviously you

01:23:44   need to go to the web right now if you ask that question Siri will tell you here's what

01:23:48   I found on the web but what if instead of saying here's what I found on the web with

01:23:52   five links that you can click it actually gave you the answer from the web I think that's

01:23:59   basically what they want to do here and to do that they're tapping Google and Jamalai

01:24:04   which I think makes a lot of sense.

01:24:06   Sorry I don't understand.

01:24:08   Oh wow Siri conscribed it all.

01:24:10   Proving the point.

01:24:12   Nice.

01:24:14   Nice.

01:24:16   That's about right.

01:24:17   I think that's about the shape of it.

01:24:19   I do wonder if there's also an element of the generative AI tools that again we know

01:24:27   Apple's been working on that we know we went through a few weeks ago all their research

01:24:30   has been public they are working in those areas but I think the thing we and other people

01:24:35   feel is like what happens when Apple's thing does something as egregiously wrong as Gemini

01:24:42   and like the Nazi photo from a few weeks ago.

01:24:46   If Apple's not ready for that yet either their models not ready or like philosophically they're

01:24:52   not ready they could also potentially use Gemini or open AI or something else in those

01:25:00   generative sense the generative sense maybe filter it somehow through their you know way

01:25:06   of looking at the world but not be directly responsible for what happens.

01:25:10   Now I don't think consumers would know or care about that difference.

01:25:15   I think if there's generative AI tools on the iPhone it does something bad Apple will

01:25:19   need to blame even if it says powered by Google Gemini at the bottom of it.

01:25:24   But I think that is a part of it like the technology is one thing the policy is another

01:25:29   thing and in many ways those things are in conflict.

01:25:32   I don't know.

01:25:36   It is very interesting though because Apple has said things are coming this year and while

01:25:44   they've been working on it March of 2024 seems like kind of a weird time for Tim Cook to

01:25:49   get spotted in a restaurant talking about this with Sundar Prachai.

01:25:54   So I don't know it is it's it's kind of wild.

01:25:57   Yeah but like they could have known that they were going to plug into someone for this part

01:26:04   right like and also as we said that this should only be part of their AI story and actually

01:26:10   the majority of the stuff that should make the biggest impact to iOS users should be

01:26:15   based on stuff that Apple's building right like the on-device models and then they go

01:26:19   out to the web for the other stuff.

01:26:23   I mean you know that I know that we all had the same impression of this initially when

01:26:29   I first saw the news I was like oh no that's not good but then when you start thinking

01:26:35   about it a bit more it's like oh hang on two things can be true here and I'm enthused by

01:26:43   the idea that if they were to work with someone like Google on this it's really just an API

01:26:48   that they'll be calling you know most likely with Google which means they could in theory

01:26:53   and I really hope for their sake they will at least try to offer other people to do this

01:26:58   which I just feel like which is look basically if Apple do this like deal exclusively with

01:27:03   Google it's like you just went through court for the last one you did of these so like

01:27:09   it will probably be beneficial for them to like maybe that's why they're talking to companies

01:27:13   like OpenAI right so that you could choose but they will have Google Gemini as the preferred.

01:27:20   There's a lot of stuff about this that makes sense it's very intriguing and it is that

01:27:25   you know I think what you were leading to Stephen though like in three months time are

01:27:30   they gonna say we're using Google Gemini like I don't know like that's a strange thing to

01:27:36   think about like if they could pull it all together in time but maybe you can get a contract

01:27:41   on a piece of paper quickly enough and how much testing is that gonna need like in a

01:27:48   beta season maybe not that much I don't know.

01:27:53   It is there are obvious parallels to the the Apple Maps situation this is something that

01:28:02   Jason spoke about an upgrade where Google Maps was on the first iPhone and it was Google

01:28:09   services and an app built by Apple in conjunction with Google and in the background Apple is

01:28:16   building its own Maps service very famously it launched in iOS 6 very famously it was

01:28:23   not good and eventually like Google Maps came back as a third party app and now we have

01:28:29   competition and they're both good.

01:28:32   You could see that being the direction this goes where Apple is building their own stuff

01:28:41   but they're doing it in partnership with other people if this is true and and maybe eventually

01:28:46   they want to stand on their own completely but I could also see a world where Apple doesn't

01:28:51   want to stand on their own on this maybe for some of that you know kind of covering your

01:28:56   rear policy perspective stuff that I mentioned but also I wonder if the the sheer amount

01:29:06   of hardware and computing power necessary to power these things if Apple is locked out

01:29:12   of that at least for the time being Google and open AI and others have have seems like

01:29:20   at least unless Apple's been buying a video chip secretly that we don't know about it

01:29:24   seems like these companies have a head start on the the cloud front of this and no matter

01:29:29   how good the next a series chip is in the phone no matter how good its neural engine

01:29:33   is at this point it doesn't seem likely that Apple could do all of this on device and if

01:29:40   the future means that eventually they can or eventually they're going to build their

01:29:44   own data centers or whatever like this this could be a stopgap but it could also be much

01:29:49   longer term than the Google Maps thing I mean there's just a lot of things at play here

01:29:53   and it is just really interesting because Apple does not talk about future products

01:29:59   except all the times that they do and Tim Cook saying there's a bunch of AI stuff coming

01:30:03   later this year that just keeps bouncing around my head you know we talked about this before

01:30:08   a few weeks ago with the Apple car and how they're talking about the car and then the

01:30:12   rest and like health you know like this is coming there's no doubt about it's coming

01:30:17   this year no doubt about it it's just a matter of how much Apple is doing how much its partners

01:30:23   are doing and then what does the glue between those things look like yeah they are going

01:30:30   to struggle for the foreseeable future to be able to provide their own version of a

01:30:36   web like a data center focused version because like the best technology is what Nvidia makes

01:30:43   yeah they just announced the brand new AI chip at their conference and it's wild what

01:30:49   they're doing Apple have two issues one they don't have a great relationship with Nvidia

01:30:54   which in hindsight is a huge mistake yep and they got to get to the back of the line because

01:30:59   every company as big as them is buying up as much as they possibly can yeah Facebook

01:31:04   open AI Microsoft like they are buying any whatever in video like I think in last Nvidia's

01:31:12   last earnings call they said something along the line of a risk that they have right now

01:31:17   is they're selling everything they can make wow which is like a risk oh I could just an

01:31:25   insane thing to hear like oh our biggest issue right now is we have no inventory because

01:31:30   everything we make is purchased by someone yeah that's an interesting situation to be

01:31:35   in especially for a company of that size yeah and at the cost of these things right and

01:31:42   maybe Apple has been in that conversation for years and we just don't know it right

01:31:49   it could be that they've been buying these things up I think I think we would have heard

01:31:55   about it by now yeah and also like really it is true like what I was saying earlier

01:32:01   Apple learned about this when we did at scale like this this whole like open AI chat GPT

01:32:07   kind of stuff like there were only a couple of companies working on it it was Google and

01:32:12   open AI like really and so they they weren't building transformer based models like these

01:32:20   GPT models they weren't doing this why would they have been you know like I'm sure they

01:32:24   have some people somewhere inside of the company tinkering around with what you know like whatever

01:32:30   but this wasn't like a focus for them in the same way that it wasn't a focus for really

01:32:35   anybody else in technology except the companies that are now leading it I mean maybe I don't

01:32:41   know if I fully buy that Apple was like shocked that this this came down so quickly but nevertheless

01:32:49   they've now have to implement it right now now it's in the pixel phone it's in the Samsung

01:32:57   phones like the iPhone doesn't have these features and the market is moving in this

01:33:03   direction no matter how much Apple was prepared for it in one more way of me trying to argue

01:33:09   my point sure like Google was caught unaware Google created the transformer yeah like they

01:33:16   were not prepared when open AI had its moment right they like they even said that like Sundar

01:33:23   Pichai was like what was his line was like this is like a five alarm moment for the company

01:33:27   like all hands on deck we have to get a product out and they ended up with Bard like a couple

01:33:31   of months later and Google created transformers like that is a Google invention and they weren't

01:33:38   ready for it so like I don't think it's like an unfair thing to say that Apple weren't

01:33:43   ready for this or weren't putting any attention to this because nobody was until chat GPT

01:33:49   came out it's also different because this is if all of this works the way these companies

01:33:55   say that it will Google's main business of search is in trouble and Apple doesn't have

01:34:05   that sort of skin in the game right the reason I think it was a five alarm fire or whatever

01:34:10   for Google is not because Android didn't have this it's because if they're not on top of

01:34:15   this and building it into their products then their cash cow in the long term isn't is in

01:34:21   danger and Apple comes at it from a very different place because for them it's a competitive

01:34:28   issue in iOS versus Android app you know the iPhone versus the the Galaxy S24 but it's

01:34:36   not a existential threat that it is to Google I don't know if I agree with that like I agree

01:34:44   with the idea that is an existential threat to search like you're correct I believe that

01:34:51   this is an existential threat to the way computers work and that's what Apple cares about like

01:34:57   that if somebody else creates the full AI computer that is a threat to Apple like if

01:35:06   somebody is able to make something that is fundamentally different and better like that

01:35:12   is what Apple are supposed to do and this could the AI could do that right in theory

01:35:19   this is what everyone's talking about so that is also an existential threat to them but

01:35:24   it's just a different one it's like it's a less immediate one I feel like but I've also

01:35:30   kind of gotten to the point where I'm gonna stop trying to put anything on a timeline

01:35:34   because every timeline I've set over the last two years around AI has been horrifically wrong

01:35:40   so I'm just like just assuming it's all coming very fast and then just dealing with that

01:35:45   it's gonna be an adventure whatever happens whatever happens at WC is gonna be fun well

01:35:54   if you want to read more about the stories we spoke about check out the show notes are

01:36:01   in your podcast player they're also on the website relay.fm/connected/494 while you're

01:36:08   there you can submit feedback and follow up you can also become a member and get connected

01:36:13   pro the longer ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week membership

01:36:18   also comes with access to our members only discord newsletter some members only podcast

01:36:23   lots of great stuff over there so go check that out if you want to find us online you

01:36:27   can find us on threads and Instagram as vitice v-i-t-i-c-c-i i mike i-m-y-k-e and me at

01:36:35   i smh86 federico of course is the editor-in-chief of max stories net continuing to grow international

01:36:45   publishing powerhouse over there at max stories it's a good way to put it yes yeah international

01:36:51   publishing powerhouse is amazing the ipp the ipp yes wait no wait uh how do you say i e

01:37:03   yes uh oh no e no p p p p yep e p p yes there you go shouldn't have been as hard as i made

01:37:19   it you can follow federico on mastodon as vitice at max stories dot net you can find

01:37:26   mike's work across the relay network he's on a bunch of other shows he also does amazing

01:37:30   work at cortex brand and you can find him on mastodon as i mike and mike dot social

01:37:35   you can find me there is ismh at e world dot social you can find my writing at 512 pixels

01:37:41   dot net and i co-host mac power users which comes out on the network each and every sunday

01:37:45   afternoon i didn't think our sponsors for this week's episode they are netsweet one

01:37:52   password and nom nom and until next time say goodbye i did that to you cheerio bye y'all

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