The Talk Show

398: ‘You’ve Never Seen Email Like This Before’, With John Moltz


00:00:00   Yeah, so when I saw that you and Snell went three and a half hours, I joked to some people that I

00:00:05   knew you were going to call me next. And it's funny that you were talking about betting because

00:00:10   I thought, man, if I could bet on it, then I'd make a lot of money. But then I guess I'm not

00:00:14   supposed to bet if I'm one of the participants, right? Well, you should call Shohei Ohtani.

00:00:20   Yeah, right. Perhaps let him know. I could talk to him too. I speak some Japanese.

00:00:27   John Moltz, you could read the talk show like an open book.

00:00:30   Happy Easter for everybody. Yeah, it's Friday. No, it's not Friday.

00:00:38   I think it's Friday, but it's Saturday.

00:00:40   Amy was asking me yesterday. So I grew up and I hope I don't get into trouble for making light

00:00:47   of religion, but I grew up, my parents, we were just talking about my parents off the air,

00:00:52   still kicking around. My dad is 86. My mom is 78. My dad, at least as a devout Catholic,

00:01:00   I grew up Catholic. I used to know the whole thing. I knew the Easter thing. And Amy knows

00:01:06   that I know. And she was asking me yesterday on Friday, what day is it? Is this the day

00:01:13   where they nail them up to the cross? Is this the day where they lock them in the cave?

00:01:18   Was she asking you because she didn't know or was she quizzing you?

00:01:22   She didn't know. She grew up Lutheran and I don't think they... I'll just say it. I grew up Catholic.

00:01:34   They indoctrinated us. But for me, the whole thing is like a TV show that I was never really into,

00:01:43   and therefore I forgot from my childhood. Yeah. Well, so I grew up Presbyterian and we were even

00:01:51   ushers at something. My parents tried to get us to go every Sunday and then sort of gave up.

00:01:58   But we celebrated Easter and all that. And we would go... It was one of those things where

00:02:07   we would go to the service Christmas Eve, right? Yeah, Christmas Eve. And my dad would,

00:02:15   of course, fall asleep in the middle of the service because he was a few drinks in.

00:02:19   The body of Christ. It compelled him to fall asleep.

00:02:26   No, we used to do that too because we used to go every week and I was very resentful about it

00:02:33   because 48, 49 weeks a year, it's not hard to get a seat in the church. And then all of a sudden on

00:02:40   these holidays, it's standing room only, your parents are trying to get you there an hour early,

00:02:45   and it's like, "Why are we doing this? Why are we dressing up?" Anyway, but happy Easter.

00:02:49   You joke about it, but I do feel like the advantage of me and Jason going into overtime

00:03:03   on the antitrust stuff is I do feel like I got an awful lot off my chest and I would,

00:03:08   I would, I think, largely like to avoid talking about the regulatory and antitrust issues facing

00:03:18   Apple. Yeah. And it didn't feel like... I was actually surprised because I was listening as

00:03:23   I was walking the dog and doing some other things. And then I was sort of surprised when you were

00:03:28   starting to wrap up because you weren't like... I mean, he wanted to keep going too. And he had

00:03:33   said at the beginning that he was tired of talking about it and then had no problem talking about it

00:03:39   for three and a half hours. Well, there is a lot to it though, right? I mean, that's sort of part

00:03:46   of the story. And there is some there there, which gets mixed in and doesn't fit with today's world

00:03:55   where everything is binary and it's either exactly right or exactly wrong. Like the notion that maybe

00:04:01   15, 20% of the antitrust regulatory complaints about Apple actually are sort of like, "Hey,

00:04:08   this is actually the sort of thing that a democratically elected government ought to

00:04:13   be looking into for an important industry." And that the rest of it is a bunch of nonsense.

00:04:20   Both things can be true. I do want to bring up the one thing that I kind of stumbled into in a piece

00:04:26   that I thought I was going to publish days ago, but didn't publish until late last night, which

00:04:33   is late on a Friday. So I don't even know if you read it. But looking more into just the general

00:04:40   idea of, "Hey, how big is the EU to Apple?" And there's two parts of it that I thought are

00:04:48   interesting. There's one, just the question of how big is the EU to Apple, which I hung the number

00:04:56   7% on based on last January's quarterly or February's analyst call for the quarter ending

00:05:04   at the end of the year. And Luca Maestri, the CFO of Apple, who has a delightful accent, but is

00:05:12   perhaps his accent is a challenge for the whisper transcription engine. There was a

00:05:17   transcription error where Jason Snell's published transcript that he double checks. God bless him.

00:05:24   If he didn't do these transcripts, we wouldn't have them. These things would be lost to time.

00:05:29   But there was a question that the analyst—I can't listen to those things. I have to skim

00:05:35   the calls. I don't know about you. Because analysts talk—

00:05:37   I used to listen to them. Yeah, I used to listen to them religiously. But yeah, I haven't in recent

00:05:44   years. There used to be a lot of arguments about, "Oh, is Apple going out of business?"

00:05:50   And nobody's—that's not happening anymore. And also, they don't give out the unit sales anymore.

00:05:58   So it's less interesting, I guess. Right. The most interesting information that they

00:06:04   used to give out was sort of—I mean, honestly, they would just break out like, "Hey, we sold

00:06:10   3.8 million Macs last quarter and 12.8 million iPads." And all right. And then at the time,

00:06:18   we used to complain that they wouldn't break it down by model. "Oh, how many of them were

00:06:22   $999 MacBooks and how many of them were $5,000 Mac Pros?" Now they just don't tell you shit.

00:06:29   Don't tell you anything. Yeah.

00:06:30   And we're like, "Ah." What we used to complain about was the good old days when they were open.

00:06:38   But anyway, the question was from an analyst. It was in typical analyst-ese, which is oddly

00:06:45   obtuse. You would think that these financial guys would be like the most rude, curt-to-the-point

00:06:52   people, but they're not for some reason. It's all very deferential. It's almost like talking

00:06:58   to the royal family and there's like code words you have to know. But anyway, the gist of what

00:07:02   the guy was asking was, "Hey, should we be worried about Apple's overall services revenue with this

00:07:09   DMA stuff?" I think that's a fair paraphrasing of the question. And Tim gave an answer that was sort

00:07:17   of a non-answer. And then Luca came on and said that the EU region is only 7% of their App Store

00:07:29   revenue, but the transcription error was App Store came out as absolute, 7% of absolute revenue,

00:07:36   which I just read as financial analyst lingo for overall revenue. I don't know. But the question is

00:07:44   if... All right, so we know one fact. This is like one of those detective games.

00:07:49   So they gave us a fact. The EU, the countries that comprise the countries that are in the EU,

00:07:57   which is not equivalent to what Apple calls Europe. What Apple calls Europe includes famously

00:08:02   the United Kingdom, who I don't know if you heard left the EU.

00:08:05   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, I think that was in the papers.

00:08:08   **Trevor Stauffer** I think it was in the papers. There's several other countries in Europe that

00:08:14   are not in the EU. Norway is kind of big. Turkey, I forget who else. Russia, the Ukraine, both of

00:08:21   those countries. I don't know if you've known in the papers together. And it's like all of Africa

00:08:27   and the Middle East. And so it's crazy. And according to Apple's financials, what they

00:08:35   call the Europe region, which includes the EU, those non-EU countries in Europe, Northern Africa,

00:08:43   which is big, big countries like Egypt, which has a high GDP, the entire Middle East, Israel,

00:08:48   Saudi Arabia, all those countries over there, is about 20, 25% of Apple's revenue. So does it make

00:08:55   any sense that the EU countries are only 7%? I don't know. And is their app store, if we know

00:09:02   from what they said, which is I guess legally binding these calls, their app store revenue-

00:09:07   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, well, they got sued over it.

00:09:09   **Trevor Stauffer** Yeah, yeah, recently.

00:09:11   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, to settle that.

00:09:12   **Trevor Stauffer** What was that? We can go on an aside here. It was like Tim Cook-

00:09:16   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, Tim Cook was talking about their position in China. And basically,

00:09:22   long story short, said something like, "Yeah, no problem in China." And then they had a problem

00:09:28   in China. And I think it has to do with what they internally actually thought. And I think he

00:09:33   glad-handed it a little bit and didn't paint an appropriate picture of what was happening. And you

00:09:39   can't do that on a financial call. Because it's considered defrauding the investment

00:09:46   investors. I mean, it's like you said you were in a better position than you actually were,

00:09:50   and that's not okay.

00:09:51   **Trevor Stauffer** And I think they got dinged for 400 and some million dollars,

00:09:54   something like that.

00:09:55   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah.

00:09:55   **Trevor Stauffer** So not huge, but not-

00:09:59   **Matt Stauffer** Not for them, but yeah, but not in some sense, considering it was probably

00:10:02   just one question and one quarterly call.

00:10:06   **Trevor Stauffer** So where was I? What was the tangent? I forget.

00:10:09   **Matt Stauffer** Other things that they say, oh, that's what Luca was saying on the call.

00:10:14   **Trevor Stauffer** Oh, right. So he did say that the EU accounts for 7% of their App Store.

00:10:19   My theory is that if the EU countries constitute 7% of App Store revenue, then that's a reasonable

00:10:28   proxy for how much they account for their overall revenue. Because I can't think of a hypothetical

00:10:36   situation where EU countries are, because they're buying way more hardware, like they're buying lots

00:10:46   of high-end iPhones and expensive MacBooks.

00:10:48   **Matt Stauffer** I mean, if they buy more Macs than iPhones, that's possible, right? Because

00:10:53   who uses the Mac App Store? Nobody.

00:10:54   **Trevor Stauffer** Exactly. Right. But I looked into that and by far the biggest

00:10:59   country economically in the EU is Germany. And in Germany, it's not that Macs are nowhere,

00:11:07   but they're actually a little lower than most countries. So it just as like a just one quick

00:11:13   spitball test, could that be the reason? Are there lots of Mac sales in Germany and France,

00:11:19   which are big economically rich countries that could maybe distort the overall revenue versus

00:11:25   App Store revenue? And that's not true. So I kind of feel as a ballpark figure, that's true.

00:11:30   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. I mean, it's probably close.

00:11:35   **Trevor Stauffer** It seems to rub some people in the EU the wrong way. And I feel certain readers

00:11:42   of the website, listeners of the podcast-

00:11:43   **Matt Stauffer** What rubs them the wrong way? Assuming that it's 7% or you're-

00:11:48   **Trevor Stauffer** Yes. And that 7% might-

00:11:52   **Matt Stauffer** You're frequent questioning whether it's worth it to Apple.

00:11:54   **Trevor Stauffer** Right. Because I think the latter would definitely,

00:11:57   definitely write them the wrong way, but maybe not the former because that's just a number.

00:12:00   **Matt Stauffer** Right. That 7% is actually a number that when you're under active threat,

00:12:07   which they keep reiterating, they do. It's not just that the law says they can find the gatekeeping

00:12:13   designated gatekeepers up to 10% on a first offense, and then up to 20% of global revenue

00:12:20   on subsequent offenses. They keep the commissioners, Vestager and Bretton, keep reiterating

00:12:27   that we're going to find these companies heavily if we find them not in compliance. They don't say

00:12:32   we're going to find them to the full extent of the DMA, but they keep saying heavy fines will

00:12:38   definitely be coming. There's no reason to doubt them. It's sort of like dealing with Trump, take

00:12:43   him at his word, right? This whole idea of, "Hey, he just says crazy stuff. He won't do crazy stuff."

00:12:48   And then we put him in office for four years and he did crazy stuff. Take him at their word.

00:12:52   The idea that maybe under threat of 10 to 20% of your global revenue, it's not worth it to do

00:13:00   business in a region that's only 7% of your global revenue seems to rub people the wrong way. I mean,

00:13:07   but I'm just a columnist with a blog and a podcast. And again, it's sort of why I wanted

00:13:14   to have you on because nobody's better at spending Tim Cook's money than me and you.

00:13:18   This is a recurring theme when you're on the show, right?

00:13:22   Well, I mean, I don't think, I think it's a fair question. I mean, I'm sure it's a question that

00:13:28   they must be asking themselves, right? It's a business. I mean, it is a business decision

00:13:34   to make. I do think that there are many other things that go into it other than just the 7%.

00:13:39   I mean, I think there is, right. If they pull out of the EU, that's a big, well, it's a lot of

00:13:46   things. It's a political problem. It's probably a problem, a perception problem for other, like,

00:13:51   other regions becomes an issue. And I guess the one thing I would ask you is the why,

00:14:01   why do you think that it is more of a question to be asking in this situation than say China?

00:14:06   And I think, I mean, I know some of the answers already, but maybe it's just a thing we can talk

00:14:10   about. Because I mean, the things that the EU is asking for are to my mind, less onerous and less

00:14:20   bad than the things that China asks for. Right. China asked for, I would say the most

00:14:27   extraordinary regulatory ask in this entire field is the, I forget how many years ago they passed

00:14:35   it, but the law that China faced passed that said that cloud, whatever services, I guess,

00:14:43   cloud, anything services for mainland Chinese customers must be hosted in mainland China data

00:14:51   centers by companies owned by Chinese company by, by in data centers owned by Chinese companies.

00:15:00   And Apple complied by that by commissioning or partnering with some Chinese owned company to be

00:15:06   their designated partner who built out an entire infrastructure for iCloud in mainland China.

00:15:13   So effectively the world has two iClouds. There's the iCloud that all everybody else has,

00:15:19   which is worldwide and global and doesn't really matter. It's sort of the same iCloud if you're

00:15:24   here in the United States or in Germany or Japan, and then there's Chinese iCloud.

00:15:30   And obviously a big ask, obviously a, people often love to point this out to me and accuse me of

00:15:38   being a hypocrite on the grounds of the privacy angle, right? That how could this proves that

00:15:42   Apple doesn't care about privacy because obviously part of the reason for the Chinese law is so that

00:15:47   the Chinese government has provable access to the data of, of everything that they, because it's

00:15:53   hosted in data in data centers in their country by owned by companies that are Chinese companies,

00:16:00   that they have rights to that. And my counter argument to that is, well, a, the whole thing

00:16:06   is about the fact that the Chinese market is so singularly important to Apple.

00:16:11   Clearly it's, I mean, it's a lot bigger, right? I don't know what the number is, but it's gotta be,

00:16:17   second, second biggest to the Americas in terms of consumer purchasing. And there's the whole

00:16:25   inextricable aspect where that's where the iPhone assembly takes place. And if something were to

00:16:37   happen, some natural catastrophe or some sort of geopolitical conflict that would suddenly cut off

00:16:45   China from Apple. The iPhone just doesn't, it's not that it wouldn't exist, but it would completely

00:16:52   collapse. It would completely Apple cannot make the iPhone as we know it without China and China

00:17:00   knows that Apple knows it. It's it's an uncomfortable situation and it is absolutely a

00:17:06   violation of the Cook doctrine of owning and controlling the core technologies of blah, blah,

00:17:12   blah. I mean, the ability to make enough iPhones is a core technology for Apple, right? And they

00:17:19   don't own it. It's it's part of China. So there is part of Apple's complicated relationship with

00:17:26   China is just the size of the market, which is second only to the Americas and probably growing

00:17:31   as, as population wise, there's certainly way more room for people to enter the middle class that can

00:17:39   afford iPhones in China than just about anywhere else rivaled only by India where Apple is also

00:17:46   concentrating a lot of effort. So it's the size of the market, but then it's particularly complicated

00:17:52   by the fact that Apple needs to be there to manufacture. So they kind of, I don't, I don't

00:17:58   know how complicated that is in terms of Apple's need to be there as a retailer selling these

00:18:08   products and saying, okay, we'll build out the infrastructure. Would it be less likely that they

00:18:13   would have built out the iCloud infrastructure in mainland China if they didn't depend on China to

00:18:20   make hundreds of millions of iPhones a year? I think they still would have done it just because

00:18:24   of the market size, but it's obviously complicated. Right. Right. And my counter argument to that

00:18:29   though, on the privacy angle is if I lived in China or you lived in China, or most of the

00:18:36   people listening to this show lived in China and you were fortunate enough to have a job or

00:18:42   an income where you could afford an Apple iPhone, wouldn't you want an Apple that's the phone you

00:18:49   would like to buy. So Apple doing what it takes to serve the Chinese market, I think is the most

00:18:56   private option available to the people of China. So if Apple were to put its foot down on principle

00:19:07   and say on principle alone, we're not going to comply with this law that forces us to put

00:19:14   our iCloud servers in China. We're going to only serve customers with servers outside China.

00:19:21   And if that means we can't sell iPhones in China, so be it, which is, I guess what the critics would

00:19:28   like Apple to do to make a statement like that. It would obviously make a statement. It would

00:19:34   obviously be huge news. It would obviously be an humongous hit to Apple's finances in the name of

00:19:41   privacy. And I also think though that it would be bad for the people of China who otherwise could

00:19:54   buy iPhones, right? Like I'm not saying that, I'm not denying that both things are true and that

00:20:00   their interests are mostly guided by the size of the market. But on the other hand, it is the surely,

00:20:06   you know, while the average Chinese or any Chinese customer doesn't really have privacy in their

00:20:12   digital life the way that we outside China expect that we do, I would guess that an iPhone using

00:20:20   Chinese citizen has far more privacy than somebody who's using one of the Android phones over there.

00:20:27   I guess. I'm not sure if it amounts to that much. I mean, because they're using one of those,

00:20:34   you know, super apps anyway. So most of their actions right through that.

00:20:38   WeChat. Right. So most of it goes to WeChat and they don't need it anyway. Right.

00:20:41   Right. Right. But you can make the same argument in the EU still, because I think your complaint

00:20:46   is mostly about user experience stuff. Right. And you could say they're benefiting by staying

00:20:52   in the EU. They're benefiting EU customers by still providing a better user experience than anything.

00:20:57   Yeah. And that's why I think they're doing all of this. And again, it's easy for me to

00:21:02   spitball and just say, hey, maybe they would think about playing out. And as I've been writing,

00:21:07   I think it's of all the designated gatekeepers, the company that I think is the most likely to say,

00:21:12   you know what, screw you guys is meta, honestly, because it's they're the ones who I think the

00:21:18   EU is really putting the screws to in a way that is just far outside the letter of the DMA.

00:21:27   Right there. This whole payer OK thing where it's OK. Option A is you opt into being targeted for

00:21:35   advertising and you can continue to use Facebook and Instagram free of charge and we'll serve you

00:21:40   the same targeted ads. We serve everybody around the world, which are incredibly lucrative for meta

00:21:45   or will they said a couple of months ago, you could pay ten dollars a month and use them without

00:21:53   ads. And then they were like, that's too much. And they're like, OK, we'll cut it to six dollars

00:21:58   a month. And then now they're like, no, you can't charge anything at all.

00:22:02   Even though even though just a few years ago, Margaret Margretta,

00:22:10   Vestager herself, before she knew that if it were I think what happened just a few years ago,

00:22:16   she said, what I would like to see is Facebook offer a paid option. I would like that a paid

00:22:21   option with no ads. And now they're offering a paid option with no ads. And it turns out

00:22:26   90 some percent of Europeans choose the other option. And therefore they're like, well,

00:22:32   if 90 percent of people want it free, then you have to offer it to them free without the targeted

00:22:37   ad, at which point I honestly wonder why meta why even do business there.

00:22:42   Unless they come from the EU's perspective, though, is it's the Walmart thing, right? I mean,

00:22:49   when you when Walmart comes into your town and wipes out everybody else and says,

00:22:53   well, you can buy Coke or Pepsi here, but you have to buy it from Walmart, basically,

00:22:57   because that's not I mean, saying saying that you can either be targeted or pay doesn't seem like

00:23:04   that great an option to me. And as someone who used to be on Instagram and left because I didn't

00:23:10   care for meta, basically. I have yet to be able to find an alternative. I paid for Flickr,

00:23:19   I paid for Glass, I paid I was happy to pay for those services. But the problem is

00:23:23   everybody else is on Instagram, right? I mean, there's no there is no other place where I can go

00:23:28   in the morning and scroll through pictures of cats and stuff and waste 15 minutes before I get out of

00:23:34   bed to get my mind straight. So it's the and I don't know, maybe they're not approaching it the

00:23:41   right way. But I mean, the problem from I look at these things as a as like a as a user. So like the

00:23:46   thing about the startup experience on iOS that that they're implementing, where like, you have

00:23:54   to give them choice in browsers. Okay, so we gave him choice in brothers. Well, you didn't give them

00:23:58   all of the browsers. I think that's a bad user experience as someone who who might consider

00:24:04   picking something else. I mean, I don't when I pick a search engine, I don't pick Google,

00:24:08   I use DuckDuckGo. So I do want a choice. But I don't think I think it's a bad user experience

00:24:15   to put up like 27 browsers on the onboarding. But that said, I also think that saying you can get

00:24:24   you have two choices, but they're both that meta is not really. A choice, particularly.

00:24:30   But the third choice is not to use it, especially, I know, but I don't I don't get I'm out of the

00:24:36   pool, basically. I mean, I'm still struggling to find a bed because everybody else is in that pool.

00:24:43   I mean, the problem is that it's a monopoly. Right? And that's what their that's what their

00:24:48   their issue is. Right. And everybody thinks that I'm or not everybody, but lots of people think

00:24:52   I'm knee jerk against everything the European Union has regulated in recent years. And it's,

00:25:00   that's not true. A lot of the stuff regarding data privacy is terrific. There are some of the

00:25:06   privacy aspects of their laws are clearly the best in the world. And they also have laws that have

00:25:12   insisted that you have access to your data so that you can say to a company that has built a targeted

00:25:18   dossier about you, hey, I would like to download what you think my interests are and stuff like

00:25:23   that, which I think that there that is, to me, a perfectly reasonable thing for government to insert

00:25:29   itself and to say, this is a reasonable thing for the law to say you have to be able to have,

00:25:34   I just sort of think they're overreaching. And before we move on, the other thing that I found,

00:25:39   where I wrote about this last night was in those comments from vestiges and Bretton,

00:25:46   that were after they announced that they're investigating, of course, every single company

00:25:51   is has an investigation, who's been designated a gatekeeper as an investigation launched against

00:25:56   it already. But in terms of there was something in the announcement of the investigation that

00:26:03   alluded to Apple's compliance plan being deficient in terms of deleting default apps.

00:26:12   And I actually went through my phone and started trying to delete apples, the default apps that

00:26:21   come with the iPhone and see which ones don't let you actually remove it. Some of them like settings,

00:26:27   for example, and I think settings would be one that even the the most vigorous regulator would

00:26:34   agree kind of can't can't be deleteable. I don't know. I mean, who knows what these people but

00:26:42   I would think of all apps, if there's one app that everybody could agree, that users should not be

00:26:49   able to delete from their iPhone and replace with the third party, it would be settings,

00:26:53   you can hide it from your home screen, but then it's still in your app library. And the ones that

00:26:58   I found there was Safari settings, messages, phone, and photos and camera. And it turns out in her

00:27:08   comments, messenger mentioned photos and that they're looking at the fact that photos can't

00:27:14   be deleted and can't be replaced by a third party app for cloud sync. And my eyes just rolled so far

00:27:23   back in my head that they hurt. Because it's I get where you could think, hey, I would love to use

00:27:28   a I can imagine a mobile operating system that is so component based that even something like

00:27:36   the system level photos library is a swappable Lego brick that you could just take out and put

00:27:43   a third party in. But that's not the way iOS is designed, right? Like part of the system design

00:27:50   of iOS is that there's a system level camera role the system has. And in just this year with iOS 17

00:27:58   increased the fine grain controls over what apps have access to in terms of apps that would like

00:28:06   to access your pictures from your system camera role. And that's one of the things that I really

00:28:13   like about the operating system, honestly. And when there have been several apps where I have

00:28:19   launched some try this app and I get the app and I try and then it says it wants access to your

00:28:23   entire photos library. I'm like, absolutely not. Absolutely no. And that is probably that's a

00:28:30   problem with, Oh, if you said you could swap out photos for Google photos or whatever,

00:28:36   or some other thing, I think you would have to lose that sort of granular control. Right?

00:28:42   Right. And part of what makes this to me so frustrating in terms of don't you even use

00:28:48   these things is to me, this is a thriving, it has been from the inception of the app store onwards.

00:28:56   Some of the smash hit apps from the debut of the app store were camera apps and photo filtering

00:29:03   apps and stuff like that. I mean, my, my personal iPhone is lousy with apps that hook up to the

00:29:10   system library and let me pick recent photos and apply filters. It's one of the most thriving

00:29:18   markets of third-party apps and they don't know, they don't get to take over at the lowest level

00:29:24   of the operating system in terms of controlling the entire library.

00:29:28   But that's, this is, this is the system Apple has designed where here's the level where we think

00:29:35   third-party integration makes sense. It's slightly above the system level. And so you can't replace

00:29:43   photos itself, but you can certainly not really use the photos app and use dark room or after

00:29:50   what's it called? Forget. I'll think of it in a second, but there's dozens and dozens of popular

00:29:57   apps that let you manage your photo library. Lightroom from Adobe can hook up to your photo

00:30:02   library. It, to me, that after light after light photo is app I was thinking of sort of like a

00:30:08   rival to dark room, but there's just dozens and dozens of them. And I think anybody who's looking

00:30:14   for one can find one that they're happy with. And I just see this as complaining about a problem

00:30:19   that nobody actually has. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is a, there is a compulsion to want everyone

00:30:29   to have a choice and it's the same. It's the same thing that led to these pop-ups about cookies.

00:30:35   Right. Right. You want everyone to have a choice and then the choice is, is so obnoxious that it

00:30:43   doesn't actually make things better. Right. My, my take on the whole cookie thing, which

00:30:49   again drives people in the EU nuts or some people, because some people judge them only by their

00:30:57   intention and the intention of the cookie law is fine. Right. I think most people would agree

00:31:02   absolutely intention. The intention is obviously pro-consumer, but the actual practical effect of

00:31:08   it, what they seem to have thought would happen is they, they said, if you're going to use cookies,

00:31:14   browser cookies to track users across websites and whatever complicated list of things that were

00:31:22   considered part of the law, then you have to get consent to do it in, in some certain way.

00:31:30   And therefore what will happen is people, companies will stop using cookies to track

00:31:36   users willy nilly, and this tracking will end. And instead what happened is that everybody was like,

00:31:43   okay, so we have to show these obnoxious banners all the time. Okay. We'll just do that. Right.

00:31:50   And I, I can't emphasize enough. And I, every time I bring it up, people are like, yeah,

00:31:54   I just went to France or I just went to Germany or on vacation with my family or whatever.

00:31:59   And I have not stepped foot in Europe in, I don't know, five, six, seven years. It's been a while,

00:32:05   but people who have been say that it's however many cookie banners you think you get here in

00:32:10   the United States or elsewhere in the world, when you're in Europe is way worse. You just,

00:32:16   the entire web experience is just nonstop, okay. And permitting cookie banners, which is complying

00:32:22   with the law, but it's, it wasn't the intended effect. The intended effect of the law wasn't

00:32:27   that you're going to spend all day clicking. Okay. Give me cookies to every single website

00:32:33   you visit. The intention was, Oh, this would make companies not do the tracking, but they sort of

00:32:39   wash their hands. They're like, Hey, we took care of your privacy. We're done. We're going to move

00:32:43   on to, we're going to move on to cell phones from web tracking. All right, let me take a break here

00:32:49   and thank our first sponsor of the day. I quite frankly, I just love to say their name. It's nuts.com.

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00:35:32   I had to go there just to be to marvel at the fact that they have the URL nuts.com.

00:35:36   That's isn't it great. That's just love to say it. What other now let's talk fun stuff.

00:35:44   I'm guessing I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing you don't own a vision pro.

00:35:52   I do not own a vision pro now. Okay. So you have not seen this week. It doesn't seem like I missed

00:35:58   much. You have not seen the new immersive content, which is a five minute, five minute highlight reel

00:36:06   of the MLS soccer highlights from last year. Last year. Yeah. From four months ago, I wrote

00:36:14   when they announced this, I kind of wrote I I'm that I'm kind of surprised to me, the most

00:36:19   surprising aspect of Apple's launch of this is that they don't have any new immersive content

00:36:26   where I sort of expected like a weekly drip. Like once a week, there'd be like a new thing coming

00:36:31   out. Like here's another new thing only on vision pro. Here's another new thing. So here's another

00:36:37   thing like a mountain climber and here's another one for the sports fans. And then the third week

00:36:43   would be like another thing like that Alicia keys thing. Here's a, here's another famous pop singer.

00:36:48   So keep hitting different markets, sports, adventure, music, whatever else it could be.

00:36:54   And instead it's been nothing and not, not just nothing, but most of the immersive content that

00:37:00   they have available was actually stuff that they showed back in June at WWDC when they first

00:37:08   announced all of this it's, it's really kind of odd. And then they came, they said this week,

00:37:12   they have a five minute immersive video of MLS playoff soccer highlights. I watched it before

00:37:19   we recorded and it is amazing, but it absolutely is what I thought going in. I was like, if it's

00:37:30   only five minutes long, isn't it just going to feel like a long trailer? And that's exactly what

00:37:35   it feels like. Yeah. It, it feels like a very long trailer for what should be like a 90 minute, okay,

00:37:43   now go watch the actual 90 minute documentary showing the entire saga of last year's MLS cup.

00:37:50   And instead, no, this five minute thing is it. And the first half of the five minutes,

00:37:55   isn't even game footage. It's like players running out of the the locker room, high fiving each other

00:38:02   and signing autographs. And it's very, very odd. Yeah. And Jason talked about a strange effect

00:38:12   because they, they changed the perspective. Right. And so you'll be in it's 180, you know, and so

00:38:18   you could be watching something and then I guess the camera perspective moves and you're looking

00:38:23   at nothing and you have to like, you have to turn around and try and figure out what you're looking,

00:38:27   what you're supposed to be seeing. Yeah. It almost find the action, you know, in a way that there

00:38:32   are other immersive content that I've watched all the stuff that you know about the tight rope

00:38:38   Walker and the other stuff they've shown. This is the first time where it feels like this is new

00:38:45   and it really sort of shows that maybe the language, I know this sounds highfalutin,

00:38:52   but that sort of the language of cinema needs to be reinvented for this format, right?

00:38:58   Because when you're, you know, cutting between camera angles, like it, whether it's sports or

00:39:05   a movie or a talk show on TV or whatever, people are just, it's very natural. People

00:39:11   understand cutting from one camera angle and perspective to another, which might be from a

00:39:16   closeup to a wide shot to a reverse shot. People, it, our brains handle it and 99% of the public

00:39:25   doesn't even really notice it. It just is the way watching TV and movies works. But with this,

00:39:32   it is, it is odd when it cuts because you are in any particular shot. It is 180 degree perspective

00:39:44   and you're the one controlling, am I looking left? Am I looking right? Am I looking up?

00:39:48   Am I looking down? There's actually a lot of neat stuff. When you look down, you can see in some of

00:39:54   these shots from behind the goal, you can see if you look down, like where the goalkeeper keeps his

00:40:00   water bottle and like, you know, like a little bag of snacks. It's, it's actually kind of cool.

00:40:06   Like stuff from nuts.com. Yeah. Stuff from nuts.com maybe, but that's what it looks like.

00:40:13   It's, you know, just out of bounds, but there's like a water bottle and like a bag of snacks,

00:40:17   like an extra pair of gloves or something like that. It's kind of neat. You don't see that on TV.

00:40:21   Yeah, really? I would never would've noticed that. Yeah.

00:40:23   But you're there looking down and then all of a sudden the camera angle of the footage shifts to

00:40:30   the corner. You're right behind the goal, looking at the goalies water bottle, right next to the net

00:40:36   of the goal. And then the movie switches to the, to the corner for a corner kick or something like

00:40:42   that. And it, it, it, it is disconcerting, right? Because within any shot you're choosing,

00:40:50   you're the editor choosing where you're gauging, but gazing, but at the same time, the movie keeps

00:40:57   moving along in real time and they're cutting between shots. It's kind of, I'm not sure what

00:41:02   the answer is, but it's not this. I wonder, do you think that this is the kind of thing where

00:41:10   they were trying to decide if they were going to release it as a sort of a more of a developer kit

00:41:15   and try and get more people on board. And then they were waffling between what to do and finally

00:41:22   decided to ship it for public release and just don't have enough content. I don't know. I, cause

00:41:30   I don't, it's so, I know people have used that phrase developer kit so often with this, but

00:41:35   that's so unlike Apple. Yeah. And, and they're not, you know, when they do that, I mean, they've done

00:41:43   that in the past, right? Did they, when the Intel switch happened, didn't they, they gave out some

00:41:49   Intel max. Yeah, they did. They did it with both processor switches. They had, well, both of the

00:41:56   recent ones, not going back to the Motorola to power PC, but with the power PC to Intel,

00:42:03   they had a Mac pro. I think it was the cheese, you know, what we called the cheese grater

00:42:08   or frame where you'd, you could get one. And it was just sort of a run of the mill PC motherboard

00:42:14   inside. And then six months after they shipped it, they wanted them all back. They didn't sell them

00:42:20   to developers. They leased them and they wanted them all back and they didn't wind up resembling

00:42:26   any actual Intel max that ever shipped in terms of their architecture. It was just sort of

00:42:33   like a Hackintosh really. It was sort of like an Apple branded Hackintosh. And then in 2020,

00:42:41   they did the same thing with the, with Apple Silicon, but it was like an eight,

00:42:48   12 or something like that. I forget what, what, what eight they obviously the M ones did not

00:42:53   appear until the actual max, but they shipped like a Mac pro box with like an eight, 12 chip inside,

00:43:02   just so you could run this. Right. And emphasize this is absolutely positively not what we're

00:43:09   actually going to ship. This is just a wave for you, a developer, true dev kit. I, they, they,

00:43:15   I can't see them doing that in any way, shape or form deliberately with a new product like

00:43:21   vision pro. Yeah. Yeah. But in, it does seem to be in a gray area though, right? Because

00:43:27   it doesn't seem like they expect this model to sell to lots and lots of people. No, they don't.

00:43:36   Price wise, it's obviously not going to. Right. Price wise, it's not everything we know about the

00:43:41   supply chain with the supply of these, these Sony made displays in front of each eye is that

00:43:46   no matter how surprisingly popular this thing could have possibly been, there was an upper bound

00:43:52   on how many they could sell in the first year. And so in effect, even though I think Apple doesn't

00:43:57   think of it as a dev kit, I don't think it's weird that people outside the company sort of think of

00:44:02   it that way. Right. Does that make sense? Where I think Jaws, if he was on the show would swear up

00:44:08   and down, no way, this is not a dev kit is a great, it's a great product. That's, that's not what

00:44:13   we're thinking at all. And for some people it is, if you really just want to use it, this is

00:44:19   my personal opinion. If you really just want to use it to watch regular movies and TV shows,

00:44:25   it's absolutely phenomenal. And arguably on its own, just worth $3,500. I, that if bang and

00:44:33   olives and sold something like this and all you could do to watch, all you could watch on it is

00:44:38   like Netflix and other streaming services like that, just movies. They'd sell it for five or

00:44:45   $6,000. It is that good, that compelling when you're watching a movie. It sounds good. It's

00:44:51   great just for that alone, but that's obviously not how Apple's billing it. They're not calling

00:44:55   it a home entertain or a personal immersive entertainment system. They're calling it spatial

00:45:01   computing. Right? I mean, it's Apple who's hanging their hat on that term. And it just, I don't know.

00:45:09   And it just, it is compelling to watch regular and I say 2D, but even when you watch like the

00:45:18   Jim Cameron avatar movies, which were shot in 3D, that's not immersive. That's it. And if you've

00:45:25   never tried the vision pro or any of these headset, it's hard to explain the difference,

00:45:29   but when you're watching avatar and vision pro, you're still seeing

00:45:32   a rectangle in front of you. And there's an aspect ratio. It's, and you see into the rectangle and

00:45:44   things come out of the rectangle towards you, but it still is a framed aspect ratio movie. Whereas

00:45:50   like the immersive content, like this new MLS highlight clip is not, it's like being in a

00:45:56   planetarium where you've got this 180 degree dome view. Yeah. Just very, it just feels like the one

00:46:04   thing that's out of sync with the release of vision pro is the production of immersive content

00:46:09   that whatever wing of the company should be producing more of this stuff. Like Mr. Memo.

00:46:15   I don't know how else to say it. Right. And it, and it just seems, and I think the thing that's

00:46:22   so surprising about it is like if Apple had somehow come out with something like this,

00:46:29   when the iPhone came out in the mid two thousands and Steve jobs is still there and the company was

00:46:37   doing well in that run up post iPod and, and the, the everything that happened from the debut of

00:46:46   MacOS 10 and the debut of the iPod and iTunes and all the, you know, the great keynotes in those

00:46:54   two thousands, the company wasn't massive, right? They weren't one of the richest company in the

00:47:02   world. They weren't the most valuable company on the stock exchange. They were thriving and they

00:47:06   were growing. And there was tremendous optimism, even from people who in years, a decade past

00:47:13   thought the company was doomed, but they weren't filthy stinking rich. Right. Whereas today

00:47:20   launching this, you think, well, they, however expensive it is for them to make 50 new immersive

00:47:27   30 minute shows a year, they could afford it right. As sort of a loss leader to,

00:47:32   to give people the FOMO, right? The fear of missing out. Like, you know,

00:47:37   every week there's this new immersive thing that's only for Apple vision pro because Apple's

00:47:43   footing the bill to shoot this stuff. And I, I I'm just, I'm not flabbergasted that they didn't do it,

00:47:51   but I'm very, very surprised that that wasn't part of the rollout plan.

00:47:56   Although they create, they create that buzz and then people will rush to the store to buy them.

00:48:00   They might not be able to write enough to, to sell them. So, right. Maybe they feel they're,

00:48:06   they're cutting this the right way, but maybe it should be, maybe it should be at least a little

00:48:10   bit more than that. Faucet that faucet should be turned on a little more than this slow drip.

00:48:15   Right. Right. I feel like there should be more of a reward. Like maybe what they're thinking inside

00:48:20   is, Oh, we're on it. And we've got somebody somewhere in eddy Q's organization has this

00:48:26   big whiteboard with a whole list of all these immersive content productions that have been

00:48:31   green lighted or currently yellow lighted. And they're waiting for a director or something like

00:48:36   that, various stages of production. And it's all sorts of stuff is scheduled to come out in 2025

00:48:43   and 2026, blah, blah, blah. But I just, and they're like, they're thinking that's when there'll be

00:48:50   enough people who have vision pro or, or vision air lower priced versions of the vision hardware

00:48:56   lineup. And by that time, Oh, we'll be set. We, we, we are going to have a steady strip of this

00:49:02   stuff or steady drip of this stuff, but I don't know. You kind of feel like for 3500 to $4,000

00:49:09   right now, there ought to be a little more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does seem like it's not the,

00:49:15   I mean, there was all that, that, that talk about, Oh, so many people are returning the vision pro,

00:49:22   you know, in that two week window when they could, and some of that didn't seem to little

00:49:28   bit overblown. But at the same time, from what I hear from people who own them,

00:49:35   it is a little bit, it seems like some of them are kind of like, not sure I should have gotten this.

00:49:43   I, I, I kind of feel that way. I mean, I honestly go,

00:49:49   I kind of wish that there was a way I wish that I could like, maybe I should see if a widget Smith

00:49:55   can, if I can somehow figure out a way to do it, but it would be interesting if every time I put

00:49:59   it on, if I could see a widget that tells me how long it's been since the previous time I put it on

00:50:04   right. Six days. And it's hot geez. Cause I, at times it would be, and it's,

00:50:11   I'm not surprised that I don't use it as all that often. But again, famously money runs through my

00:50:19   fingers like water. I hold water better than money. You know, well, you also live with someone,

00:50:25   right? I think, yeah, I think it is the kind of thing. It really depends on your life,

00:50:30   but it was going to say that even if, even if the people who own one don't really regret it

00:50:35   from the outside, it doesn't seem as compelling a buy, right? Like I don't feel like I don't have

00:50:43   FOMO at all right now. Yeah. And that says a lot really. And, and it comes to, you know, cause a

00:50:48   lot of the stuff that it does do, right. It does have email and messages and Safari and it's, you

00:50:58   how many do you, do you feel like you don't have enough ways to do messages, mail and Safari right

00:51:03   now? I mean, I say this honestly, I, I kind of feel like maybe iPad, iPhone, Mac is too many.

00:51:11   Yeah, really. Yeah. Right. Like to me, the way to inspire FOMO is the only on vision pro stuff,

00:51:19   right. And email and Safari are never going to be that right. It's never going to be,

00:51:24   Oh man, you've never seen email. Yeah. You've never seen email like this before.

00:51:30   I mean, yeah, there's a weird, there's a weird gap between like the, when they, you know, they,

00:51:38   they shipped the watch and I would say watch zero, not really as complete a product as maybe it could

00:51:46   have been for sure. I mean, it was slow. I don't know that there were other than notifications,

00:51:52   not that feature full as it later turned out to be, but it did later turn out to be,

00:51:58   and that worked out really well for them. And then you could look at the touch bar,

00:52:04   which similar thing, but then developed into absolutely nothing.

00:52:09   Right. Yeah. And they never, they never took it.

00:52:12   Maybe it's somewhere in between leaning more towards watch for sure, but like,

00:52:16   Yeah. Cause I think they invested a lot more in it.

00:52:19   And I don't think they're going to give it up easily like the touch bar.

00:52:22   Yeah. But it is true. They never made a 2.0 touch bar, which to me is it's a tangent, but,

00:52:29   and I could kind of see how even if they had tried a 2.0, maybe we'd still be like,

00:52:34   give me back the actual buttons, but I kind of wish they had at least done two. Right.

00:52:39   I kind of wish they'd taken a second at the touch bar.

00:52:42   Right. But yeah, they didn't. It seemed like there was potential there that never

00:52:48   was, was explored. Not, not only not achieved, but not explored.

00:52:53   All right. I'm going to take a break here and thank our second sponsor.

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00:55:32   All right. So I want to go back to my other complaint about the immersive content.

00:55:39   Because it's immersive, it's impossible to drink anything while you're watching.

00:55:44   Because, and I never, I don't know why it never occurred to me before, because I guess the other

00:55:51   times I've watched immersive content wasn't the morning, but I was watching the soccer thing in

00:55:55   the morning while trying to drink coffee. And I realized as it's playing, I'm like reaching out

00:56:01   and it's, I don't know where my car, and I'm like, I don't, I need to take this off. This is

00:56:05   dangerous. I could get burned. Yeah, really. Problems I never expected to have with computers.

00:56:13   Yeah. I wonder if that's one of the reasons why they can want to keep it short. I don't know.

00:56:17   Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. It does seem like it's not the environment that

00:56:22   you necessarily want to be in for a long period of time. Yeah. I don't know. It's weird. Anyway,

00:56:28   I said we talk about happy stuff and here's a happy one. This one makes me happy.

00:56:32   Gurman hinted at it a week ago and then MacRumors followed up. It seemed, I don't know if it was

00:56:37   prompted by Gurman, if they got the okay from it, but then MacRumors with the original inside

00:56:43   sources said that iOS 18 is going to have a much more customizable home screen system for icons.

00:56:52   So it would be more like Lego where you could just sort of snap icons into place wherever you

00:56:59   want them and make, if you only want two rows of them and then you want to just go to the next page,

00:57:03   you could do that. If you just want them like a column with a gap in the middle, you could do this.

00:57:08   You can kind of lay widgets out like that now. It's kind of weird in iOS 17. You can kind of

00:57:13   put widgets wherever you want, but you can't still can't put app icons wherever you want.

00:57:18   And I would say non-ironically, finally.

00:57:25   Isn't it kind of weird that we're at the 18th annual iteration of iOS and

00:57:31   when you arrange your icons on the home screen, they're still sort of in a row, like in order

00:57:40   from top left of the first screen. And it's just sort of like a snaking queue of icons

00:57:49   that is very, very irritating to try to move more than one at a time.

00:57:55   I don't imagine this is going to make it easier though, right? I mean, the way that press and

00:58:00   hold thing and then reorder rearranged stuff, I always have, if I want to get an icon to be the

00:58:07   first one, it's always a problem because it always seems to want to make a group.

00:58:12   Yeah, yeah.

00:58:14   And this seems like it's going to be, I don't know, madness, but I'll have to wait and see

00:58:19   what happens.

00:58:19   Well, as ever, whoever leaked it hasn't leaked everything, so we don't know quite how it works.

00:58:25   So we're in the glorious two month stretch, or I guess the 10 week stretch, where WWDC has been

00:58:34   announced and we can just dream that these features will be implemented in the perfect way that isn't

00:58:41   annoying. Yeah. Well, the only other thing that so far has really come out is the AI stuff, right?

00:58:48   As things that are going to get...

00:58:50   Well, that's the other thing we can do. We can talk about that too. I don't know if you're

00:58:54   going to be able, maybe you'll be able to use AI to arrange your icons on your home screen.

00:58:57   See, that would work. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I feel like I need another way to arrange

00:59:03   things as opposed to another mechanism as opposed to positioning.

00:59:09   I'll just say that there are certain aspects of iOS that...

00:59:13   exemplified by just the existence of cut, copy and paste, which I think was...

00:59:21   we had to wait till iOS 3, maybe it was even iOS 4. I think it was iOS 3 though.

00:59:26   But we went at least two years, maybe three years, where you couldn't even copy and paste.

00:59:31   Right.

00:59:34   It was a new platform. It was a new paradigm. It wasn't really text-oriented. It was

00:59:39   sort of more important for viewing than for actual writing. And they wanted to ship,

00:59:47   and then they did. And I think the general way cut, copy and paste that they came up with worked

00:59:52   was worth waiting for. But there are lots of other things that here we are 18 years in, which sounds

00:59:59   crazy, right? I mean, the iPhone can vote. I mean, that's... it's kind of wild, right?

01:00:06   But there are certain things that are so frustrating on iOS, including the iPad,

01:00:14   compared to even a 1984 Macintosh. The first Macintosh running System 1.0

01:00:22   had rubber band select so that you could drag a rectangle... if you wanted to select three or

01:00:28   four icons on your desktop, instead of like shift-click, shift-click, shift-click, you just

01:00:34   drag a box. And any icon that wound up within the region of the rectangle you dragged would become

01:00:41   selected. And then they're all selected, and then you could drag them together. It was...

01:00:45   The first version of the Mac had much better move multiple icons at the same time

01:00:54   than 18 years into the iPhone than we have. It is very, very weird and tricky. And I think

01:01:03   90-some percent of iPhone users would be shocked to find out that there is a way to move more than

01:01:10   one icon at a time, that you put it into jiggle mode and start dragging one icon, then get your

01:01:17   other hand involved and start tapping other icons. And then they shoot over into a stack, which is a

01:01:23   neat trick to know, but is something that I'm guessing 95% of iPhone users have no idea they

01:01:28   can possibly do. And even if you know about it, it still isn't that great of a way to sort of rearrange

01:01:36   your phone. It does have the virtue of being something that you are unlikely to trigger by

01:01:41   accident. Unlike some of the multitasking stuff where you can get into a situation where you've

01:01:49   got things, windows and positions, and you can't figure out how to get them out of those positions.

01:01:54   >> So that's my hope. My hope is that this is actually more... I know it sounds insignificant,

01:02:00   "Oh, you can arrange or put gaps in your home screen with your icons." I don't know. I kind

01:02:04   of hope that this is a serious rethinking from the ground up of how you organize your home screens,

01:02:09   and that they've really put their top new UI design minds onto the problem. And that it's,

01:02:23   "Hey, this actually... All right, sure, we can complain that it's too late, but it's better

01:02:28   late than never. This is actually very, very clever and flexible and makes me feel like I have much

01:02:35   more control over the organization of my home screens." I think that's a reasonable ask of Apple

01:02:41   after AT&T. >> Apart from that, I mean, I don't know if that... I don't imagine that's the only

01:02:46   thing, being able to put things in different positions than you have been able to in the past,

01:02:51   but it has been described as the biggest update for iOS ever, right? Even bigger than iOS 7.

01:03:00   >> I wonder about that, though. I know that's Germin's rule. And I don't know if that just

01:03:05   means the home screen angle or the whole OS or what that... I mean, so far, judging by the leaks,

01:03:12   we don't know. So who knows? >> iOS 7 was pretty big.

01:03:16   >> Yeah, I would say iOS 7. >> That was a huge change.

01:03:18   >> It's really hard to top that one. >> No, it's very... Yeah, I can't imagine

01:03:23   how it would be more than... Having gone... I recently had reason... I don't even remember

01:03:29   where it was, but I went back and booted up a bunch of old iPhones that I had lying around.

01:03:36   And my mom had sent me her iPhone 3GS, and she famously, for a number of years, she doesn't...

01:03:45   She no longer does this, but when she would use her iPhone, she would use her iPhone,

01:03:50   and then she would turn it off and put it back in the box. And so it is in very nice shape.

01:03:57   It's not pristine, but it's really close. And so I booted that up, and man, it's not just nostalgia,

01:04:05   I don't think, but it does feel like we lost a few things in that transition to iOS 7.

01:04:14   >> Yeah, I... >> It's sort of skeuomorphism, but

01:04:18   just not just felt and leather. >> Right.

01:04:22   >> It's like the feel of things moving. >> Yeah, yeah, like the date picker or the

01:04:29   time picker, where it clearly looked like a... >> Rolling...

01:04:34   >> A rolling dial. >> Yeah, like the thing on The Price is Right,

01:04:39   where you spin the wheel, you know what I mean? Like a wheel, and that you'd spin these things,

01:04:44   and that they had shadows and depth, and it was just extraordinarily clear what you're supposed

01:04:50   to do. Well, that looks like a wheel, it's three-dimensional, I'm obviously supposed to spin it.

01:04:54   >> Yeah, I think that's probably the thing, right? It's looking, I mean,

01:04:58   obviously you can look at it and you can tell what you're supposed to do. And many things,

01:05:04   I mean, if it's gotten better, but many things when we switched to iOS 7 were not that clear.

01:05:08   >> No, and they've obviously stuck with it, and the whole industry followed. Again, I know...

01:05:19   >> I just heard somebody on a podcast saying just this, oh, I know what it was,

01:05:23   it was Hugo Barra on Ben's Stratechery, saying that iOS borrowed as much from Android as Android

01:05:30   borrowed from iOS. And I mean, I have to disagree. I know, I think that you could make a list of

01:05:38   things that were borrowed that's equally long, or they did this first, then this came to the

01:05:42   other platform, and this one did that first, and this one came... So you could make two lists

01:05:47   that are equally long, but at a fundamental level, Android started as a BlackBerry-looking thing,

01:05:56   and ended up very much like an iPhone-looking thing. But there is, yeah, there's like a lot

01:06:04   that we've... I look back at that, it's kind of hard to believe, too, that we're up to 18,

01:06:10   and we only had six releases of iOS with the old style. I know, and it was weird when we got to

01:06:16   like iOS 14, I guess, or 13, wherever you'd want to call the halfway point, where it was like,

01:06:22   oh, it's like we're halfway into the new era, and now we're...

01:06:24   >> Yeah, it's one of those, you want to feel old.

01:06:26   >> Right. But where I was going with that was that the whole industry sort of followed Apple's lead

01:06:31   post that, like everything kind of looks like iOS now. Stuff on the web looks like that,

01:06:35   Android looks like that, Windows sort of looks like that, everything has sort of got flat, and

01:06:41   lots of buttons are just text without an outline, and it's not so obvious what it is. Is this going

01:06:47   to be a drop-down menu, or is this just a push button? Is this a spinner? No, I don't know.

01:06:54   I'd love to see a lot of that come back, but none of that's rumored yet.

01:06:57   >> Yeah.

01:06:58   >> So you mentioned AI. What was the pun? Jaws, when he tweeted the dates for WWDC,

01:07:04   said it's going to be capital A, absolutely, capital I, incredible.

01:07:10   So that's about as close as Jaws was going to come to say, yes, we're going to talk about AI,

01:07:16   shut up. Shut up and wait until June 10th. >> Yeah. They have been surprisingly

01:07:23   defensive about it, I guess, and maybe they should be, but...

01:07:28   >> Yeah, I think... >> Yeah, they're constantly, I mean,

01:07:32   I think it was last fall, it must have been the iPhone announcement, it was like, oh yeah,

01:07:38   there's so much AI in here already. >> Yeah, yeah. I think that the difference

01:07:44   is, and I'll compare it, and it's not just because Bankman Fried just got sentenced to his prison

01:07:51   term, but to compare it to crypto, which was of hype cryptocurrency three years ago-ish, I don't

01:07:59   know where the peak of cryptocurrency mania was, but was a similar hype cycle to LLM, large

01:08:07   language model AI. And I think it's an interesting contrast because I think the cryptocurrency thing,

01:08:16   there's a kernel of utility there, right? You actually can buy these cryptocurrencies,

01:08:22   and somebody who did get in early on Bitcoin when held has done very, very, very well. I mean,

01:08:29   there is some kernel of reality there, but in terms of matching up to the hype, clearly,

01:08:37   no. >> Yeah, yeah. It makes me wonder

01:08:40   about Nvidia too, right? Because Nvidia is probably the biggest beneficiary of both of

01:08:44   these two technologies. >> Yeah, it's definitely started.

01:08:47   >> If this doesn't turn out to be, like cryptocurrency didn't really turn out to be the

01:08:55   wave that was expected, but they managed to get by because now AI has completely filled the gap

01:09:01   for them. But if this doesn't turn out, I mean, and/or they just spent out there churning these

01:09:05   things out in order to keep themselves behind the scenes, pulling the strings.

01:09:09   >> Yeah, I think the difference is that the AI stuff is really a game changer.

01:09:14   >> Yeah, this definitely feels much more, this is here to stay as opposed to cryptocurrency.

01:09:21   >> For better and for worse, lots of stuff is different already permanently and will always,

01:09:30   henceforth, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle, right? Just the way that, I mean,

01:09:37   one of the ways we're already seeing it for the worse is using AI to just generate content farm

01:09:44   content on the web, right? It is- >> Yeah, yeah. I went to the eye doctor

01:09:49   Thursday and the optometrist saw that I was a freelance writer. And she was like,

01:09:59   has your career been affected by AI? Well, no, my career has been affected by the crash of

01:10:06   advertising on the web, but- >> Well, but it's not wholly unrelated,

01:10:12   really. >> No, yeah.

01:10:13   >> Because the whole idea with the content in, I mean, we really are-

01:10:16   >> I just thought it was interesting that she was like, she knew that that was a thing

01:10:19   and thought to ask me that question. >> Whenever I think about it, and I think

01:10:26   the way that most of us, I don't see a lot of it, but I mean, it's hard to avoid it when you're

01:10:31   asking questions on a search engine, right? And you're like, I don't know, like your toilet is

01:10:38   running and it's, I don't know, how do I fix a running toilet? And it's for a long time,

01:10:43   it was like everything was steering you to YouTube videos, right? Which always annoys me. I'd rather

01:10:48   just read and see instructions. Don't make me watch a four minute video. Please, if you could

01:10:53   just show me the instructions of how to fix this, it would take me 20 seconds to read it. God.

01:11:00   But now it's just this AI crap, right? And you can just tell, it's such a telltale. And it makes me

01:11:07   sympathize with teachers because you just know that there's so much very horribly patched up AI

01:11:18   submitted homework being done, right? And it's so telltale, right? It's so bad. But it's all about

01:11:25   trying to Hoover up advertising money, right? And it really is like the parable of a view of a

01:11:30   million monkeys on a million typewriters typing for a million years. And it's, oh yeah, that's

01:11:35   an interesting hypothetical. And there's these people building websites now. That's a great idea.

01:11:40   >> Brilliant. >> I mean, I love to make fun of it when it doesn't work or when

01:11:48   people find ways around. I mean, there was that thing going around where someone used a

01:11:54   car dealerships. I don't even know if this was real, but.

01:11:57   >> Oh, I think it is real. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. Car dealerships,

01:12:01   chat, talk to us, talk to our chat bot and got it to make some sort of Pearl script or something.

01:12:07   It's like why pay for chat GPT when my local Toyota dealer will take care of it for me.

01:12:16   >> Right. All that they were worried about is like how to use their prompts to prepare their chat

01:12:23   bot not to offer people good of a deal on a car. But in the meantime, that never occurred to them

01:12:28   that people would be using their open AI API account to write PHP scripts and.

01:12:34   >> Yeah. And as funny as these things are, there's definitely, there's obviously very

01:12:40   real applications for this and using it for programming problems is a very good one. I

01:12:46   mean, that seems like from the people that I've talked to who rely on this stuff regularly,

01:12:50   it's actually a boon. >> Yeah. And I've been of the opinion for

01:12:56   an entire year that Apple is not late. They're obviously not early.

01:13:02   >> I don't think so either. >> They're not early, but that's the thing.

01:13:05   They're clearly not early. They're not leading the way. So that is true, but that doesn't mean

01:13:10   that they are late. But the one. >> It's typical Apple.

01:13:14   >> Yeah. Very typical Apple. >> I mean, it's waiting,

01:13:17   they're going to disappear in 60 days if they don't ship a watch type of thing.

01:13:21   >> Right. But I will say the one area, and I said this before last year's WWDC, the one area where

01:13:28   they are late is integration with Xcode, right? Because, and of course programmers take care of

01:13:34   themselves first. I mean, it's a little bit selfishness and it's just a little bit, well,

01:13:40   kind of, of course, because the people who are figuring out how to make practical applications

01:13:48   of large language models are computer programmers. So kind of, of course, they're going to hook it up

01:13:55   to their developer tools first. I mean, it's not even making fun of them for being selfish. It's

01:14:01   just the way it's going to just make sense. And Xcode has like no integration with anything like

01:14:07   this in terms of, oh, I'm beginning to type a function. Can you auto complete the rest of this

01:14:12   function? Or I need to make a SQL query that's going to, I have a SQL table with the following

01:14:19   rows and columns. Write me a query that finds just some plain English description.

01:14:27   And okay, here's the SQL query, put it in your source code. All of that stuff is in other major

01:14:33   IDEs and it's not in Xcode. I kind of thought maybe that might've been one of Apple's

01:14:38   announcements last year. I'm not shocked that it wasn't, but this year I think it kind of has to be,

01:14:43   or it's really going to be conspicuous. If part of their AI story has to be AI integration with

01:14:49   Xcode, but also at this point, and with JAWS teasing it, I mean, JAWS is not the developer

01:14:55   tools guy. Clearly they're going to have some sort of features to announce.

01:14:59   **Matt Stauffer** Front end.

01:15:00   **Justin Jackson** Yeah. Front end for regular consumers.

01:15:03   I will say I just was emailing somebody, some writer, I forget where, but somebody,

01:15:10   some writer for some mainstream publication reached out to me as like a particular Apple

01:15:14   nerd just to say, Hey, I'm writing an article that I actually think that the dictation on the iPhone

01:15:21   has gotten better this year. Is that AI? Am I nuts? And I'm like, no, it really has. Like auto,

01:15:26   what they promised last year. And I don't know if it's the exact same language model. I think it is,

01:15:31   but both software keyboard autocorrect and talk to the keyboard dictation, both are definitely better

01:15:41   this year than they've ever been on the iPhone. No doubt about it.

01:15:44   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. I'm getting so many less,

01:15:47   those annoying like completion thing that I never use. And that's, that was the big benefit was it's

01:15:54   now like it's learned. Okay. He's never going to pick this. So I'm just going to stop,

01:15:57   stop offering it to him.

01:15:59   **Justin Jackson** I find myself using it on the Mac too,

01:16:03   where, where I can type as fast as I can think, but I keep finding like I'm writing,

01:16:08   I'm in Apple mail and I'm typing an email and it's I'm going to R and then I just typed the word R

01:16:14   and I wanted to write recommend. And just by typing R recommend that you gets put in gray text.

01:16:22   And I'm like, that's what I was. That is exactly what I was going to write tab. You know, now I

01:16:27   keep going, like I'm taking those suggestions because they are literally the exact words I

01:16:33   was thinking of. And it's kind of uncanny that, you know, I only typed one letter of the word R

01:16:40   and it just filled in the rest. It's it's pretty good. Obviously they've got more,

01:16:45   more stuff to come. I mean, yeah. So we'll see. I guess,

01:16:50   I mean, the thing that they said was it's not going to be chat type things, but something to

01:16:55   help people with their day to day lives or something. Yeah. Well, think about some of the

01:17:00   stuff they've done. I think one of Apple's great underappreciated software products of the last

01:17:06   10 years is the photo widget, right? Like the thing that shows I've got it on my second home

01:17:12   screen, but it's like the way the pictures it picks chooses to put in my photo widget every day

01:17:19   are really good. I mean, I don't know what other features like that they can come up with and use

01:17:26   AI to drive, but you know, I, yeah, I believe that they've got, they must have something.

01:17:33   And I totally see that it's not going to be chat, but on the other hand, I guess that does leave

01:17:38   the thing that's most like chat, which is Siri, right? Which has to be part of the,

01:17:44   has to be part of this, the conversation. Right? I mean, that to me is the elephant in the room is

01:17:50   that they've had this thing since Steve Jobs was alive, right? I mean, it was like announced at the

01:17:57   iPhone event where he was on 4S, right? Yeah, he died literally days afterwards,

01:18:05   right? But that it's a long time ago and it's however much frustration people have had with

01:18:11   Siri over the years. I think it's never been further behind. Yeah, but look at this thing

01:18:19   over here from some other company, some other product, whether it's the open AI chat and a

01:18:24   web browser or whatever else, even like the humane pin, which I know isn't out yet, but it does seem

01:18:31   like when you talk to the humane pin, you get more of a conversation than you do talking to your

01:18:37   Siri devices at this point. At this point, you can point to other things from other companies based

01:18:43   on these large language models and say, this is unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah. And they have bought

01:18:51   a number of, well, at least they bought, I know they bought at least one, but I think it's more

01:18:55   than that for sure, but AI companies. And recently, so not necessarily stuff that would be integrated

01:19:02   yet into what's coming for WWDC. But I think they did, like the other day I was talking to,

01:19:10   Siri was telling me, reading my messages to me and it managed to combine three messages that came in

01:19:17   one after the other and summarize them in one sentence basically, which I was like,

01:19:23   I don't think that's, that's not great for the state of the industry, but I thought that was

01:19:27   good for Siri. Have you had Siri describe a photo to you? I didn't even know that. I didn't even

01:19:34   know this was a feature, but I often, my Siri experience is largely through AirPods while I'm

01:19:41   walking, running errands or just taking walks in the city. But now it's, if you send me a photo,

01:19:46   Siri will sometimes, but not always say, John Moltz texted you with a picture of a cup of coffee

01:19:53   or something. And then I'm like, what? And then I look and it's, you sent me a picture and it's,

01:19:58   oh, it's a humorous coffee mug. Really, really. I didn't, I don't remember them saying that Siri

01:20:02   would do that, but you know, it does it and it's pretty cool. And you can see how that could be.

01:20:07   I think it came up in, yeah. I mean, I think it was one of those things that maybe was on a slide,

01:20:11   but not talked about very much in the presentation.

01:20:15   Right. But there's lots of stuff like that, that they can add throughout the system that doesn't

01:20:19   involve making it just a chat interface to it, but clearly making Siri smarter, it's gotta be part of

01:20:26   it. I mean, it's at this point, it's pretty frustrating. What else is on the rumor mill?

01:20:32   The rumor mill is people keep waiting for new iPads. Now we're told May, which is weird. May

01:20:39   is usually like a dead month for Apple. Usually Apple's schedule is they'll do stuff in April

01:20:45   and then they go silent in May in the lead up to WWDC in June. But now they're saying,

01:20:52   well, I think it's because they couldn't get the OLED screens, right? I mean, it seems like they

01:20:57   had more trouble than they thought, I suppose. And so they had to kick it back a month or two.

01:21:03   Yeah. But that's exciting. I mean, cause that's a product in our lineup.

01:21:09   Huh. But joking aside, it does seem of all of the products Apple sells,

01:21:17   certainly among the popular ones, it is the one that is-

01:21:20   And again, the Department of Justice's claim that Apple sells products that are too expensive,

01:21:27   and it only does that because it has market power and not because it makes good products.

01:21:32   The iPhone and particularly I think the iPad are cases against that because the bottom line iPad

01:21:41   is a really good device. Karen's got, I forgot, like a nine, I think, or an eight. I can't remember

01:21:46   now, but she's got one that she's had for a number of years and it's still kicking and she still

01:21:51   loves it. And I keep asking her if she wants a new one and she's like, "No, it's fine."

01:21:56   I've still got a 2018 11-inch iPad Pro and it does feel a little slow to me now in certain ways,

01:22:04   but not in the way that for the entirety of my life that a "six-year-old computer" has felt.

01:22:11   For most of my life, it's, "Oh my God, this thing's six years old. It feels like it's

01:22:16   covered in molasses." Yeah. Yeah. But that's another good point in terms of,

01:22:22   yeah, well, we keep saying this, but we've probably been saying this for 20 years, but

01:22:25   the fact that I had this M1 MacBook Air, I kind of wish it would be slower so I could justify

01:22:34   buying a new MacBook Air because I've got the wedge form factor and it's a little dinged up.

01:22:39   I've dropped it a couple of times. I would love to get a shiny new device,

01:22:43   but I have no real reason to because it's just not slow.

01:22:46   This, I did four years old. That's exactly what I went through with my,

01:22:52   I have the M1 MacBook Pro and it's the Max and it's got lots of 64 gigs of RAM.

01:22:59   And then I got the review unit for the M3 that's actually space black. And I do really prefer the

01:23:05   colors. The darker, the better. I like it. And I thought, "I'm going to buy this and maybe I'll

01:23:10   give this to my son because he could use it." And I checked with him and he said, "Do you need a new

01:23:14   MacBook?" And no. What kind of kid says no? But he's like, "No." Because he has an M1,

01:23:21   he's got the M1 and it's the lateral move. It's my MacBook's fine. And then I went back,

01:23:31   I closed the review unit and went back to mine and I was like, "Oh, please feel slow. Please feel

01:23:36   slow." And no, so super. I'm like, "I'm going to be using this for 10 years because I don't do it."

01:23:41   And I think that's an issue with the, I mean, an issue with the M series, right? I mean,

01:23:46   because they're going to last, I think they're going to last longer than the Intel stuff did.

01:23:49   Right. Well, and now they're one of the other news things that's come out in the last month is this

01:23:53   deal, seeming deal with Walmart, maybe with Best Buy too, to sell the M1 wedge MacBook Air,

01:24:01   just the base model. So only eight gigs of RAM and only 256 of storage, which to me, the storage is

01:24:08   the one where I kind of wish that if they were only going to sell one config, I really wish,

01:24:12   I'm fine with eight gigs of RAM for typical people. And I just wish it was 512 because I

01:24:18   feel like, man, then I could just wholeheartedly tell family members, "Yeah, just go seriously,

01:24:25   go to Walmart and buy the MacBook Air that they sell. You don't even have to, and don't even worry

01:24:30   about the specs. They only have one. Just go into Walmart and buy it." Like, it's kind of beautiful,

01:24:36   right? It is sort of an Apple-like simplicity. Just go to Walmart and buy the one MacBook they sell.

01:24:41   It's great. And the only hesitation I have for it is the storage. But on the other, maybe, I don't

01:24:48   know, I guess I'd have to look at- I think for an average user, that's not unreasonable.

01:24:52   No, I know for my parents it would be because the only thing they-

01:24:56   It would definitely be for mine, yeah. The single thing they have that possibly takes up any space

01:25:00   at all is photos, and photos can be in the cloud. And again, we're getting into the nature of photos

01:25:07   as a part of the system as opposed to an app that you can replace. Well, and there's a case,

01:25:11   I mean, I think that's a case, and I think you talked about this with Jason, that if anything,

01:25:16   the price of their storage or iCloud storage is the thing that is overpriced.

01:25:22   Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. Right. But yeah, I'm excited for that. But it does seem weird

01:25:28   that the iPads would come in May. But again, if that's what the supply chain- if it's not what-

01:25:34   it seems like it's clear it's not what they wanted, but it is what it is. I don't know.

01:25:39   Yeah.

01:25:39   And I guess it's kind of interesting that they might, according to Germin, do it anyway

01:25:45   rather than wait for WWDC, which would probably suggest that they've got plenty of stuff that they

01:25:51   have to announce. Because that's the other thing that usually happens in May, is you can sort of-

01:25:58   they start announcing weird random things that clearly got cut from the WWDC keynote.

01:26:05   Oh, here's a random new app or a feature or something like that, and it's released

01:26:11   or announced on May 20th. Oh, somebody just got that cut from the keynote.

01:26:16   Yeah.

01:26:18   What else is going on? Oh, I know. I wanted to talk to you about this,

01:26:22   and I know you highlighted it in your This Week in Apple. Did you see the big

01:26:26   total news, very definitive, about a foldable iPhone?

01:26:30   I did see that, yeah. I think it's the MacRumors headline is "Foldable iPhone

01:26:37   Could Arrive in 2027 or Be Postponed Indefinitely."

01:26:41   So they've narrowed it down.

01:26:44   It's definitely one or the other.

01:26:45   It's either coming in three years or never going to happen. So it's just a minor detail.

01:26:54   Yeah. I don't know. I still have my mini, and I'm clinging to it with dear life.

01:27:09   So maybe a foldable phone would solve part of my pocket problem, I guess is what we're going

01:27:16   to call it. But I don't really. And I mean, just the fact that you're taking a bigger phone and

01:27:20   folding it in half, really making it smaller, you're just changing the length. I would have

01:27:28   to see it to be really wowed by it. And so I don't feel like I'm missing that much by not having a

01:27:34   foldable phone particularly.

01:27:37   And again, I don't want to over index on Apple always blowing away whatever came before it.

01:27:46   But every foldable I've seen to date to me has looked like there's no way Apple would do it that

01:27:53   way. Because everything seems to involve, whether it folds up and down or folds more like a book,

01:28:00   it's eventually, it's like you've got two phones stacked together. And it's like to me,

01:28:06   if Apple ever is going to pursue folding or rolling phones or whatever other ways a screen might be

01:28:13   able to be made smaller.

01:28:16   Brian Kardell Yes. And it does seem like they still run into problems where

01:28:20   the hinge part doesn't look very well.

01:28:24   Dave Asprey There needs to be some kind of step change where

01:28:26   in its folded state, it's only as thick as an iPhone is now, right? It needs to get more

01:28:31   science fictiony where it's more like just just a screen. And there's not a quarter inch thick

01:28:39   thing in your pocket. But right, I it really amused me that they're like, it's three years from now.

01:28:45   Brian Kardell Yeah.

01:28:46   Dave Asprey Possibly never.

01:28:47   Brian Kardell Well, that way they know that they can't be

01:28:50   said that they were wrong, right? I mean, yeah. Either way, either way, they're right.

01:28:55   Dave Asprey Well, that's always the case, right? That's the

01:28:58   Brian Kardell Yeah, that's the classic rumor mill conundrum

01:29:02   that they've that they've solved in this instance.

01:29:04   Dave Asprey That's about all I've got for the show. Is there

01:29:08   anything, any kind of movies or TV shows that you've watched recently that you'd like to recommend?

01:29:12   Brian Kardell I just watched The Three Body Problem. And I read the first book, so this is

01:29:16   on Netflix, I read the first book and didn't, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I didn't, I started the

01:29:22   second, but there were things that I didn't like about it. I think it went into too much detail in

01:29:25   certain sections anyway. So I didn't read the rest of the series, but I thought the first one was

01:29:28   good. And I really enjoyed the show. I think maybe they kind of conglomerate and invent some

01:29:34   characters and stuff like that. And I think some of the dialogue is a little bit clunky, but the

01:29:38   science fiction stuff I really enjoyed. So. Dave Asprey

01:29:41   We just finished that. It's funny because that's what I was going to mention as well. And I'm going

01:29:45   to give it a thumbs up, but I'm going to give it like a thumbs up with a, it's not great, but it's

01:29:52   like over the 50 yard line of I'm glad I watched all eight episodes. Brian Kardell

01:29:56   Some of the things, the things that are in the book that they brought to life

01:29:59   without going into details or spoilers is, are very satisfying. I would say.

01:30:04   There's one incident in particular that is, I remember reading in the book and being like,

01:30:11   wow. And then seeing it again, being like, wow. Dave Asprey

01:30:14   Yeah. I think I know what you're talking about. I won't say anymore, but it was pretty bold.

01:30:20   Brian Kardell I will say the other thing and Amy, God bless her,

01:30:24   put up with it and watched all eight episodes along with me, but she's not really a science

01:30:28   fiction fan. So it was sort of a, my pick now I kind of owe her one. But even she said after

01:30:36   episode three, wow, that was a better episode. And I thought so too. I thought episode three was

01:30:41   really good. And then as soon as the episode ended, it said directed by Andrew Stanton.

01:30:46   And I was like, oh no, no wonder. And then I looked up, I quick, I was like, that's great of

01:30:53   Pixar fame. I forget which. And then I looked up in call sheet, which I have active on my phone when

01:30:59   I'm watching TV from our friend Casey List. And I'm like, Ooh, I hope Andrew Stanton directed a

01:31:04   bunch of other episodes and it's nope. That was it episode three. So if I, if I've spoiled anything

01:31:11   for anybody out there who hasn't watched three body problem, it's that episode three is the best

01:31:15   episode. I don't know. Does that count as a spoiler? I guess it is. I don't know. I don't

01:31:20   think that way. I mean, maybe some people do consider stuff like that's where some people

01:31:24   consider just saying whether it's good or not a spoiler. Yeah. So I guess, I guess it's sort of an

01:31:29   anti-spoiler because what I'm saying is that if you have tastes similar to mine, you're going to be

01:31:33   disappointed in the last five episodes, mild, at least mildly, it peaks. I was not, I would say that

01:31:39   I was just a counterpoint that I was not disappointed. I mean, I, I went into, I hesitated. Well,

01:31:44   I didn't, I knew I was going to watch it eventually, but I didn't jump on it immediately.

01:31:49   And then once I started watching it and I do think it, yeah, the first two, like the first two

01:31:53   episodes I watched maybe slowly, but then once I did get to three, I blew through the rest of them.

01:31:58   Yeah. Yeah. And I liked them. So it's one of my, one of my favorite things in science fiction is

01:32:04   just sort of a very original, huh? I never thought of that. Like what if blank? And there's a couple

01:32:10   of those, what ifs involved in the science fiction scenarios of three body problem that are like that.

01:32:17   I've never seen anybody think about it that way before. That's kind of interesting. What would,

01:32:23   what would happen? And it's, this seems kind of reasonable. I, and so it's very enjoyable to me

01:32:28   in that way, in that way that as a fan of science fiction, it's always pleasing to me when there's

01:32:35   some just the premise itself is so novel where it's right. And now there's like a part of my

01:32:41   brain that's lit up that I never even knew existed before. That's pretty cool. Yeah.

01:32:46   So kudos for that. So anyway, you stole my recommendation. Thanks, John.

01:32:49   You want to, you wanted to, you were trying to soft stuff, slip your way into that, right?

01:32:55   What, what podcast would you like to promote that you are also on?

01:32:59   I do the rebound weekly with Dan Morin and Lex Friedman and then Biff every two weeks

01:33:06   recently, just cause there's not that many superheroes shows anymore right now. Anyway,

01:33:10   they kind of, they kind of ran that barrel dry. And our good friend got English. So.

01:33:15   All right. And I will thank our two sponsors for the episode, our good friends at Squarespace,

01:33:20   where you should go to start out if you need, if you or someone, you know, needs a website or a

01:33:25   new website and my favorite sponsor to say aloud, nuts.com. Let's just go there for any kind of

01:33:32   snacks or pantry staples. I love it. And that's.com/thetalkshow. All right. Thank you, John.

01:33:38   Thank you.