508: You’re Judging It Wrong


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 508 for April 15th, 2024.

00:00:15   Today's show is brought to you by Wild Grain, SaneBox and DeleteMe.

00:00:19   My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by the returning Jason Sunell. Hi Jason.

00:00:23   Hi Mike, I'm back. You didn't, you guys didn't ruin the place last week, thank you for that.

00:00:28   Try not to.

00:00:29   You know, it makes me uneasy to not be on Upgrade, but I did get to listen to Upgrade this week, so that was fun.

00:00:35   That's fine. And I'd like you to have time off Jason, you can have time off, it's more.

00:00:38   Thank you.

00:00:39   I have a Sunell talk question for you though, we're getting right back into it.

00:00:42   This one comes from Brent who wants to know, Jason, has the Sunell SF Giants jersey been acquired?

00:00:48   Okay, those who have listened know that the San Francisco Giants, my lifelong favorite sports team,

00:00:54   signed Cy Young Award winning pitcher Blake Snell, and therefore there's ready-made Snell related labeled merchandise now available.

00:01:07   I am happy to report that on opening day, we went to the game and we went into the newly revamped Giants dugout store,

00:01:15   where you and Adina have purchased Giants outfits in the past.

00:01:20   And I looked around and we didn't see it, and then we turned a corner and there it was, a rack of Snell jerseys.

00:01:27   And that was that.

00:01:31   So I have mine, they did not have them in the women's cut, which is what Lauren preferred.

00:01:35   Those are now available on the website and so she should be getting that pretty soon from that.

00:01:40   And then I think the kids will also be receiving other.

00:01:43   And as soon as there's like shirts and I mean, like literally, if it's got a Giants and a Snell on it,

00:01:48   we're going to take the advantage of this year because he's probably only going to be here for a year.

00:01:53   We'll see.

00:01:54   But it doesn't matter because our names are here forever.

00:01:57   So, you know, people will be like, why are you still wearing a Blake Snell jersey?

00:02:01   And it's like, actually, it's me.

00:02:04   So anyway, yes, acquired on day one on opening day and worn on opening day.

00:02:11   For your sake, I hope that he isn't a disaster.

00:02:13   He is a disaster so far, but that it's early yet.

00:02:16   And he tends, he didn't have a spring training and all that, but it doesn't matter again because it is my name.

00:02:20   Yeah, I know.

00:02:21   But like that, because that's, that's what I would worry about for you.

00:02:23   Like he ends up costing you the world series or something and then forever, it's complicated for you to wear a jersey with your own name on it.

00:02:30   Except one's like, you know, it doesn't matter.

00:02:34   You'll take it.

00:02:35   I'll take it.

00:02:36   You could get, you could get an journey, be like Snell and then like brackets.

00:02:40   It's my name.

00:02:42   Yeah.

00:02:42   Azure is my name is right below it is my name.

00:02:47   Let's get a Sharpie.

00:02:48   Great.

00:02:49   Let's go Giants.

00:02:50   You know, let's go Giants.

00:02:52   On our curling jackets.

00:02:53   And we have those.

00:02:56   It has J period Snell on mine and L period Snell on Lauren's.

00:03:02   So you can tell that's a part.

00:03:03   Love it.

00:03:05   The SF Giants are the official baseball team of the baseball team of upgrade.

00:03:09   Absolutely.

00:03:10   Endorsed by both hosts.

00:03:13   If you would like to send in a Snell Talk question of your own to open a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com and send one in.

00:03:20   Thank you.

00:03:21   Right.

00:03:22   We have some follow up, Jason.

00:03:24   This is some follow up for stuff that you weren't around for and some that you were, which is fun.

00:03:30   First piece is about emulators.

00:03:33   Emulators.

00:03:34   Emulators starting to hit the app store, but it's not gotten off to a great start.

00:03:38   So over the last few days, there was an app called IGBA that hit the app store.

00:03:43   It was a Game Boy and Game Boy Advance emulator.

00:03:47   And it was like the heavens had opened for people because it was like, oh, my gosh, I can play Game Boy games with ROMs that I have acquired somehow on my iPhone.

00:03:58   Then Riley Testa, who created GBA for iOS and is also the creator of Altstore and the Delta emulator and all that stuff, posted that this application appeared to have been a knockoff of his work in creating GBA for iOS.

00:04:15   And Riley was upset because they've been working on their own app.

00:04:21   Unclear right now, but if Riley will be releasing the emulator outside of Europe on the app store, but potentially, I don't know.

00:04:30   The app then got removed from the app store.

00:04:34   Initially, it wasn't clear whether the developer removed it or Apple had removed it.

00:04:39   But then Apple confirmed to MacRumors that the app was removed for, quote, violating the company's app review guidelines related to spam and copyright.

00:04:49   But also that they did not provide any specific details.

00:04:52   So what we do not know, and this is only more questions here, is was this removed because of Riley making a complaint or making a complaint online that got back to Apple?

00:05:03   Or was it removed because it was a ROM for Nintendo games?

00:05:07   Indeed, it's not a good look for Apple either way, because they accepted this and then rejected it.

00:05:16   Right.

00:05:17   So that's dumb.

00:05:20   Also, not only is it unclear, like, was this, it turns out you can't do these kinds of things in the store.

00:05:30   Breaking news, breaking news from a friend of the show, Chance Miller at 9to5Mac.

00:05:35   Apple tells me the IGBA's functionality was originally approved in compliance with the app store guidelines.

00:05:42   The app was removed, however, when Apple learned that it was a clone of GBA for iOS, a violation of the copyright and spam app store guidelines.

00:05:50   OK, so this is what I was going to say about the lack of clarity, because when Riley said this is a knockoff.

00:05:56   Yeah.

00:05:57   What does that mean?

00:05:58   Because there's two meanings of that.

00:06:00   One is they literally took my thing, stuck a bunch of crap in it and put it in the store.

00:06:04   That is what they did.

00:06:05   And the other one is, hey, because, and I'm not saying Riley would think this, but people do think this way, which is, wait, I did the Game Boy emulator.

00:06:17   Why are you on my turf?

00:06:19   And that would be a more kind of like feeling based thing, which is it feels like you're trotting on my territory, but not legal.

00:06:26   But if they literally took the code, the open source code from the emulator and then just put in a bunch of trackers and stuff, that gives Apple justification.

00:06:38   Yeah, it does appear that that's what happened, because there's even like UI elements and stuff that were very similar, are very similar to GBA for iOS.

00:06:45   So it appears that that was going on.

00:06:47   And also, like, I think the developer made a public statement to the Verge, I think, and was like, I never meant for it to be like this.

00:06:55   And Riley said that they had gotten to Riley and said that it was a mistake and apologized and all of that.

00:07:02   And so I guess, you know, never mind in a way, although I will point out the thought did cross my mind that people talking about rightfully replicating or not rightfully replicating other people's work is, while talking about game emulators, is interesting, right?

00:07:21   It's, this is always what I felt about, like, do the people who make tools for piracy worry about piracy?

00:07:34   Right? Like, where's it? Oh, here, come buy my cracking tools. It's $100.

00:07:38   It's like, well, yeah, but you know what they're going to do with your cracking tools is they're going to crack them.

00:07:42   And like, it is that.

00:07:44   We're looking into like the, it's like a real, I don't even know.

00:07:48   Like it's like, it reminds me of the meme from community, right?

00:07:53   Of the, like when Troy walks into the pizza and everything's on fire, it's kind of how it feels like with this stuff.

00:07:58   Or you look at it for too long and you're like, well, who owns what?

00:08:01   But effectively what we, the question that I had until minutes ago was, and it's still not actually really answered, like will Apple allow emulators to play Nintendo games?

00:08:15   Will Riley put them in like Riley, Riley's got a vision OS stack of emulators now.

00:08:21   So like, is Riley going to be like, no, no, no, no, no, it's all going to be in the alt store or would Riley?

00:08:28   Cause I think, I think Riley's feeling is that this was sort of done to undercut alt store, right?

00:08:32   Oh, well, I don't, to me, there is no other option.

00:08:36   I guess there's no option. There's no other reason.

00:08:38   Like Apple have, could have done this at any point over the last like 15 years or whatever.

00:08:42   It could have, but now all of a sudden emulators are allowed.

00:08:46   Like I think this is 100% because the, the emulators in alt store are a genuine reason to use alternative app marketplaces.

00:08:54   Sure.

00:08:55   And if they now exist in the app store, it will be a reason for people to not use alternative app marketplaces.

00:09:00   Apparently, and this is all thanks to people in our members discord.

00:09:04   Thank you members for, for participating in the show live as we record this on, we record it Monday mornings at noon Eastern.

00:09:11   Which is neither of our time zones, but I just thought I'd throw it out there because Casey, it's like the scent of Casey is still in the air.

00:09:17   So we'll talk about Eastern time for a minute.

00:09:19   Anyway, Jason and the discord says that Riley's license for his code for GPA for iOS says you can use this anywhere and modify it anywhere for any project,

00:09:30   except if you were going to submit it to Apple's app store, in which case you need my express written permission.

00:09:36   Fair enough.

00:09:36   Which he did not provide.

00:09:38   So there you go.

00:09:39   This is the guy's license.

00:09:40   He did the work.

00:09:41   That's the license.

00:09:42   And, uh, so yeah, I'm still interested.

00:09:45   I got the IGB app and I have some ROMs, which I have acquired in the means from which I've acquired them.

00:09:52   There are these interesting devices that you can buy to rip, uh, uh, Game Boy cartridges, which I've done and it works.

00:10:00   So, you know, what I want is I want a, uh, I think, uh, I think I want a Wii emulator because we have lots of Wii games and playing them through an old Wii

00:10:10   or Wii U is a pain.

00:10:13   I'd really, I'd really like that on Apple TV, honestly.

00:10:17   Well, that would be great.

00:10:18   Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see what emulators appear, um, and, and how, how they run on Apple hardware.

00:10:27   It's going to be very interesting.

00:10:29   I feel like we're really like, this is uncharted territory right now.

00:10:32   It is.

00:10:32   This is the excitement of Apple being, um, Dan, Dan Morin wrote a piece last week on six colors.

00:10:40   I'll just mention in passing, which is, um, it is a piece that is simultaneously kind of obvious, but also really needed to be said.

00:10:48   And it's, Hey, regulation works and the threat of regulation works and, and Apple and other tech giants are so powerful.

00:10:57   And I know we're going to talk about a little, a little about this later.

00:10:59   We've got a topic scheduled.

00:11:00   I'll just throw it out here that at some point, as we've said all along for the last few years, uh, governments are the only ones with the power to make the tech

00:11:09   giants do anything different.

00:11:11   And they're very comfortable and, and, and not even really competing that hard with one another because they're all making a lot of money.

00:11:17   Um, and so how, how do we see Apple making wholesale changes in their policies?

00:11:23   The only way it's happening is because they're either being forced to do so by laws or they're preemptively doing so because of their concern about what

00:11:31   rulings or laws might be held against them.

00:11:34   Um, but, uh, we can, and we can and have frequently debated all the issues there and we'll continue to, but I will say it also makes things really interesting

00:11:43   when policy changes happen, because who knows, will it be nothing or will it be a, just like a huge sweeping change?

00:11:51   Cause this is, you put this in with the cloud gaming and it may be nothing, or it may be just a completely transformative moment.

00:11:58   I don't know, you know, or somewhere in between, I suppose, but, uh, can't wait to see what happens.

00:12:04   Speaking of regulation, Apple has made some enhancements to its repair programs.

00:12:10   So customers and independent repair companies will now be able to repair a device with a genuine used part from other devices, beginning with the iPhone later this year.

00:12:21   Activation lock will also be extended to parts. So if a device is stolen and locked, uh, its parts will also become locked.

00:12:29   So, you know, now it would be the case, cause you can see the scenario of, oh, I can use parts. Well, I can use them from stolen iPhones.

00:12:35   So they're doing these two things together to make it more parts available for different prices, I guess, for people to be able to repair devices.

00:12:43   You know, companies could take devices in, strip them for parts and use them to repair newer devices.

00:12:49   Um, and so yeah, this is all happening. I think because it seems like it's also because of a bill.

00:12:55   It's a law now. So, so this is one of those things where, you know, regulation never works, except it totally works, which is that, uh, we talked about how in California, there was a right to repair bill that Apple supported, right?

00:13:07   Well, in Oregon, there was a right to repair bill and Apple did not support it. And you're thinking, well, why, why would they not support it?

00:13:13   Well, one of the things in the bill, which is now a law, the governor of Oregon signed it into law, is that, um, this parts pairing shenanigans, uh, is, is not allowed.

00:13:27   And Apple doesn't love that because that was a way for Apple to say, well, okay, you can fix your thing, but you have to buy the parts from us.

00:13:33   And, uh, the state of Oregon said, no, and that's the law now.

00:13:38   And again, it's one of those cases where in all of these repair things, as these laws happen, Apple's like, all right, well, we'll change our policy.

00:13:46   And they put out a press release saying that they're doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but the truth is they're doing it because they have to.

00:13:50   But again, it's like, what I like about it is that Apple also doing it the right way if they're going to do it, which is because I think the activation lock thing is really important.

00:13:59   Um, because you could see a scenario where more devices could get stolen if, right.

00:14:06   And then you mix up the parts.

00:14:08   Yeah.

00:14:08   And so this, this will at least hopefully curb some of that or curb the potential of that, uh, like stop and increase before it could increase.

00:14:18   Speaking of iPhones being repaired, what about where iPhones are made?

00:14:22   There was a report that was shared by 9to5Mac, which says that one in seven iPhones are now made in India.

00:14:28   I think this information came from Bloomberg.

00:14:30   So this is just basically Apple furthering its commitment to diversifying where its products are manufactured.

00:14:37   Uh, currently in India, the supply and manufacturers split between Foxconn, Pegatron and Tata.

00:14:43   And Pegatron and Tata are reportedly considering a joint venture on creating a new plant to boost their manufacturing efforts because Foxconn is currently doing the large bulk of this work split between the three companies.

00:14:55   So just a continued move that I just think is interesting to track of.

00:14:59   I think it's, it is also, it is partly Apple reducing its reliance on China, but I also think is Apple reducing its reliance on its products being made in one place, no matter where that might be.

00:15:11   I think both things are important.

00:15:13   Um, to me, honestly, if I'm Tim Cook, the more important is just stopping all my products being made in one place.

00:15:20   Like if I'm Tim Cook, cause I think Apple has shown that it's fine with its relationship with China by and large.

00:15:26   Um, but I think COVID showed them that if a country shuts down, your device manufacturer shuts down.

00:15:32   And then what do you do?

00:15:33   And I'm not sure if this one comes from the secret puzzle society, but new puzzles are coming in the news app in iOS 17.5.

00:15:41   It's a game called core tiles where you select from a grid of tiles that include a couple of letters to form full words.

00:15:48   We spoke about the crosswords before in Apple news and now there are new games.

00:15:52   So it feels like, I don't know, it kind of feels like Apple is trying to compete with the New York Times a little bit here.

00:15:57   Um, is what it feels like by adding these games inside of, uh, uh, the news app itself.

00:16:04   Yeah, for sure.

00:16:04   And there's some others in there like, uh, Hearst has Pusmo.

00:16:08   Um, Lex Friedman has his thing that he's, Lex Friedman has apparently just decided that one of the things he's going to do is create an internet game service.

00:16:19   Made by him.

00:16:21   More power to you, Lex, you know?

00:16:22   Yeah.

00:16:23   I mean, yeah.

00:16:24   So is there, is there a, what is the official Lex, uh, Lex games, um, website we should, we should put that in the show notes at the very least.

00:16:35   I will find it and I'll put it in the show notes because Google did not help me.

00:16:40   Lex.games.

00:16:41   There you go.

00:16:42   Is it Lex.games?

00:16:43   Lex.games for our good friend Lex Friedman, friend of the show.

00:16:46   So you could do that too if you don't want to do it and I'll just say the, uh, the first rule of secret puzzle society is a puzzle you can't solve.

00:16:55   You can't get in, you can't get into the society.

00:17:00   Unless you solve the puzzle and then you, and, but you know, that's it.

00:17:04   This episode is brought to you in part by Wild Grain, the first ever bake from frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, fresh pastas and artisanal pastries.

00:17:15   Every item bakes from frozen in 25 minutes or less.

00:17:19   No thawing required.

00:17:21   Jason, can you tell the upgradians about the choice of these frozen treats?

00:17:26   Yeah, well you get, um, you get bread, it looks like bread.

00:17:30   It doesn't look like dough, but what you do is you pop it in the oven and it turns into fresh baked bread in a very short amount of time.

00:17:36   And it, it feels and tastes like fresh baked bread.

00:17:38   That's really nice.

00:17:39   They have pasta.

00:17:41   Um, you, you use it, it tastes like, and has that mouthfeel of like a fresh pasta, just fresh, not, not dried, but the fresh kind of pasta.

00:17:51   Um, they've got other things too.

00:17:54   Like, uh, you got popovers at one point, we've got croissants in our freezer right now.

00:17:59   Those look more like a dough, but, uh, basically the idea is you can get without actually making the thing, you can pop it in the oven and get what is a fresh baked.

00:18:09   Bread or put in the water and you get the fresh pasta.

00:18:12   It just comes in a box to your house and you put it in your freezer.

00:18:15   You know, if you're one of those people like me who has a lot of things, my future, my freezer is full, Mike.

00:18:19   It's full.

00:18:21   And we use that to do our meal planning, which is actually really great that we can do our meal planning based on the stock of frozen stuff.

00:18:29   And that includes the bread.

00:18:30   So this week we're going to have pasta.

00:18:31   That's going to be the wild green pasta.

00:18:33   And we're going to have, uh, at least one other meal with one of the, the loaves of bread.

00:18:38   And it's going to be good.

00:18:40   Mm.

00:18:40   We could, we could do them together.

00:18:43   That's a lot of carbs, but it's not impossible anyway.

00:18:46   Uh, it's really easy because you just pop it in the oven and then it gets the, you know, the it's crispy on the outside and soft and warm and wonderful on the inside.

00:18:54   And it's fresh baked bread, uh, without having to make the bread yourself and watch it rise.

00:18:59   And then, you know, put it in a plastic bag and watch it rise again.

00:19:03   And I mean, I've baked a lot of bread in my time.

00:19:05   This is much easier.

00:19:07   I'm going to have to stop you because I'm getting too hungry.

00:19:09   Okay.

00:19:10   You can, if you're out there and you're hungry, like me, you can customize your wild grain box so you can get any combination of breads, pastas and pastry that you like.

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00:19:25   Box full of bread.

00:19:26   Sure.

00:19:27   Box full of bread.

00:19:27   Sounds good to me.

00:19:29   Plus for a limited time, you can get $30 off your first box plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.com/upgrade to start your subscription.

00:19:37   That is free croissants in every box and $30 off your first box when you go to W I L D G R A I N.com/upgrade.

00:19:48   That's wildgrain.com/upgrade.

00:19:51   Or you can use the promo code upgrade at checkout.

00:19:54   Our thanks to Wild Grain for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:19:58   We're going to have an extended rumor roundup, which is just one thing today.

00:20:04   Yeehaw.

00:20:04   It's like a stampede of cattle.

00:20:07   Yes.

00:20:07   It's a stampede of Mackintosh's.

00:20:09   So, Mark Gurman has shared a report on Apple's plans for the M4 chip generation.

00:20:15   The first Macs of an M4 chip are expected to debut later this year going on into 2025 with the plan being that all Macs will be updated to the M4 generation.

00:20:27   This is the first time, right, that every Mac that Apple sells would be on the same chip generation.

00:20:32   So this will include in 2024, Mark is saying there will be new iMacs.

00:20:37   We're expecting just the one size.

00:20:39   We can let it go.

00:20:41   24-inch iMac, I think he said specifically.

00:20:44   Yeah.

00:20:44   A low-end 14-inch MacBook Pro, the high-end 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros and a Mac Mini.

00:20:50   That'll be 2024.

00:20:51   They're going to get M4 chips.

00:20:53   Then in 2025, the 13 and 15-inch MacBook Air, the Mac Studio and the Mac Pro will all get the M4 chip.

00:21:02   The standard chip is going to be codenamed Donan.

00:21:08   So that's just the M4 chip.

00:21:10   But it's just M4.

00:21:10   Yeah.

00:21:11   The higher-end chips, the Pro or Macs chips, are codenamed Brava.

00:21:15   Interesting that they're sharing that codename.

00:21:18   Yeah.

00:21:19   And then the top-end chip, the Ultra chip, is Hydra.

00:21:24   Right.

00:21:24   It's spelled with an I, so it's like "Heedra."

00:21:26   Yeah.

00:21:26   Hydra?

00:21:27   Hail Hydra.

00:21:28   I don't know.

00:21:29   It doesn't matter because we're never going to call it that.

00:21:31   We're going to call it M4 Ultra or whatever.

00:21:33   Yeah.

00:21:33   Like it's nice.

00:21:33   He knows the codenames.

00:21:34   That's good.

00:21:35   Yeah.

00:21:35   I mean, it's fun.

00:21:36   It's fun to know.

00:21:36   It's fun to play codenames.

00:21:38   Yeah.

00:21:39   Apple is also apparently still testing an M3 chip for the Mac Studio as well as the more powerful version of the M4.

00:21:48   But the M4 Ultra chip, which is currently only being tested for the Mac Pro, which is interesting.

00:21:59   Mm-hmm.

00:21:59   A couple of other details.

00:22:02   Apple is testing for the Studio Mac Pro the ability to go up to 512 gigabytes of RAM, which is also interesting that if the Mac Studio does not get the M4 Ultra, it means that the M4 Macs, in theory,

00:22:17   would be able to support up to half a gigabyte of RAM in a desktop machine.

00:22:20   I don't know.

00:22:20   Right?

00:22:21   Half a terabyte, sorry.

00:22:23   Because how else would that fit?

00:22:26   Right.

00:22:27   Then two details.

00:22:28   Mark says that these, the M4 generation is designed to highlight artificial intelligence and aiming to boost sluggish computer sales.

00:22:36   Well, these are, these two statements are not statements based on facts.

00:22:40   These are statements based on narrative building by Bloomberg, right?

00:22:43   This is the usual thing where we all know that Apple's been designing chips for years.

00:22:49   They designed them way in advance, the way the story frames it.

00:22:53   And it's because they're trying to tell a narrative about Apple.

00:22:57   It's a fantasy, really.

00:22:58   It's like, oh, Apple's reacting to sluggish computer sales by doing a new chip generation.

00:23:04   It's like, well, first off, they'd be doing that regardless.

00:23:06   Second, I don't think that they were like, oh, geez, Mac sales are slowing down.

00:23:12   I guess we should make a better chip.

00:23:14   Let's do that.

00:23:15   Like, I think that it deeply overstates the linkage between one fact and a different fact.

00:23:22   And then the highlight artificial intelligence, I think given that Mark doesn't specifically report ways that these chips are totally more AI friendly.

00:23:35   I think the only way to read it is it continues to be that Apple has got neural engine and it's got a lot of GPUs and it keeps updating them.

00:23:44   They just updated the neural engine core.

00:23:46   Maybe there's a new neural engine core or more cores in the M4 than was in the M3 or the M2.

00:23:54   But the way I would read this is that they're going to promote it in a new way because that's what they're doing now is promoting their stuff.

00:24:06   But I doubt it has actually any change in the chip design itself.

00:24:10   And if it does, it would probably be, again, a new core or more cores.

00:24:15   But that's not reported by Mark Gurman.

00:24:17   He's just saying designed to highlight artificial intelligence, which I think he knows this.

00:24:21   But I think that this is just the way Bloomberg works is they want to tell these stories about how everything's connected, even if it's less juicy when the fact is it's not.

00:24:29   Because what didn't happen is late last year, Apple executives didn't like pour over a ledger somewhere and go, oh, no, Mac sales are slow.

00:24:38   Boys, pour some more AI juice in that new chip we're going to do.

00:24:44   Because also, it's not like whatever Apple announced at WWDC is only going to work on the M4.

00:24:50   So whatever they announce will work on all of the Apple silicon chips.

00:24:55   Even if they did do, I don't know, new MacBook Pros at WWDC, which I'm not going to, but even if they did, it's not like they'll be like, oh, artificial intelligence will only work well.

00:25:07   But when they get to announcing the M4s, they'll be like, and the Apple AI tools work even better.

00:25:14   That's going to be the story.

00:25:16   They'll just keep saying that forever.

00:25:18   It's marketing.

00:25:20   What bugs me about these stories, and again, Mark Gurman's sources are great, and I think he does great work.

00:25:25   But especially since he went to Bloomberg, I mean, there is this attempt to link these facts together to stitch a story that's broader about Apple's strategy.

00:25:36   And I think it happens because Bloomberg, you know, subscribers pay a lot of money and the terminal subscribers pay even more money and they want to seem super smart.

00:25:43   They're like, oh, I get what Apple's doing.

00:25:45   And so it becomes this like portrayal of Apple as this company that is reacting in the moment to things that are going on.

00:25:52   And that's not really what it is.

00:25:55   Now, I mean, aiming to boost sluggish computer sales.

00:25:58   Yeah, Apple wants to sell more Macs and the Mac sales are down from those pandemic fed heights.

00:26:04   But I don't.

00:26:05   And that's true.

00:26:06   And they may do some strategies in terms of rollout or what chip goes where or whatever.

00:26:10   But what's not happening is that a chip that was probably designed three years ago.

00:26:15   It right is like, oh, geez, we need it in there.

00:26:18   Like it just it doesn't the company doesn't have the ability to change that fast.

00:26:25   And if they did and they were doing things that were kind of wild and new in the M4 because Macs are sales are slow or because AI is important, I would have expected that to be reported and hasn't been because that's not what's going on.

00:26:41   So, I mean, new chips is always a good opportunity to sell more Macs and M4 is going to be so far out in front of them.

00:26:47   One, presumably that they can hope to tap some upgradeers from M1, whereas they have been with M2 and M3 really highlighting Intel upgradeers.

00:26:58   So, you know, there's there's a story to be told here.

00:27:00   I just I want for our upgrade listeners, especially to understand that it's complex and I don't think these things are connected.

00:27:09   I also feel like the idea of sluggish Mac sales, it's like these are things that you can point to.

00:27:18   But again, like we can look at this and be like, well, sales went bananas because of COVID and Apple Silicon.

00:27:24   That's not what Mac sales are always going to be like, no matter what Apple do.

00:27:27   And we are now returning more to where we were 20, you know, above 2019, but maybe a little higher is kind of seeing where we're going to be.

00:27:36   They've come out to a new plateau and the install base is much larger, but they're not.

00:27:41   But this also goes back to the Wall Street mindset here, too, which is what you've got to do is grow.

00:27:47   But if Apple does really does a really great job with their AI tools, right, and people go mad for them and then these M4s do do an even better job.

00:27:57   Like, yeah, sure, maybe it will boost the sales.

00:27:59   But like, as we said, it's not why they're doing it.

00:28:01   We also expect Mark Gurman knows this, but as you say, his audience requires that kind of...

00:28:08   His audience, his editors, whatever it is, it is this.

00:28:12   Yeah, it's this extra layer of...

00:28:14   I mean, it's a slightly more sophisticated version of the thing where Bloomberg inserts a paragraph in their stories a few hours after they're posted indicating whatever stock price change happened in the hours after they posted it in order to imply that Bloomberg's report is what moved the market.

00:28:31   And I'm sure sometimes that happens, but most of the time...

00:28:34   I think it might sometimes.

00:28:36   Oh, it does.

00:28:37   I mean, when they break news, but for a lot of this stuff, it's sort of like, oh, and they were up 2% on the news.

00:28:45   I was like, was it on the news or was it just another day at Apple?

00:28:49   But it benefits Bloomberg and its business to be seen as market movers.

00:28:53   So it's all part of the same sort of thing.

00:28:55   But anyway, going back into this, I think there are a couple of things that are interesting to me.

00:29:00   One, doing the whole chip generation, like the whole all max on one chip generation is interesting.

00:29:07   I think it's continuing to tell like a story that I've found particularly interesting in the Apple Silicon transition is there kind of has not been a reliable trend of how Apple is managing the Silicon chips and their Macs.

00:29:19   Every time we think we might understand how they handle things, they do something different, which I kind of like.

00:29:25   I think that that's fun.

00:29:27   The other is what's going on with the Mac Studio and the Mac Pro, I think is the most interesting part of this, because I think that is it's quite intriguing.

00:29:37   It would be weird to me, given what Apple has done over the last years of the Mac Pro for them to build a chip only for the Mac Pro.

00:29:50   That would be peculiar to me.

00:29:53   Yes.

00:29:54   What he says is it's only being tested with the Mac Pro.

00:29:57   It's possible that that is also going to be a Mac Studio chip, but it's also possible that they've decided that they, you know, I can see both arguments.

00:30:07   They've decided that they really need the Mac Pro or want the Mac Pro to be special in some way.

00:30:12   But it's such a low volume computer that it seems to me that a more rational thing is to also make it available in the Mac Studio.

00:30:20   I don't know.

00:30:22   So that's the part to me which is really odd, because like, you know, I'm a bit of a Mac Pro hater, I think now.

00:30:31   I don't understand it really being there anymore.

00:30:36   And maybe the M4 Ultra has something in it, which maybe they'll finally allow for external graphics cards again, and then maybe it makes sense, right?

00:30:47   But I don't think that's going to happen.

00:30:50   But then also, why on earth would you do it?

00:30:53   Like, if they do do it the way that Mark says, like, why would you have a chip only for that one machine?

00:31:01   Which is the only characteristic difference between this machine and other machines is you can put things inside the case because it's big enough.

00:31:07   But at the moment, there's nothing to put in there.

00:31:09   So my...

00:31:12   Look, I mean, yes, there's a rational argument that the Mac Pro shouldn't exist at all, but it does.

00:31:16   And I kind of understand why it exists.

00:31:19   But one of the reasons I say it exists is because it's a case that was already designed, and they're basically using the guts, or at least a lot of the guts of the Mac Studio.

00:31:30   And so it dramatically reduces how much extra work gets to be in this special, almost bespoke product that nobody buys.

00:31:40   So, you know, unless Apple does something illogical, which they might, it happens.

00:31:47   It feels to me like the Mac Pro as a big Mac Studio thing is the most rational thing they could do.

00:31:54   But who knows, they might have some trick up their sleeve.

00:31:58   I just, that market is so tiny and it's not going to get much bigger.

00:32:00   Like, if they grow it at all, I just have a hard...

00:32:03   Let's say they do something like support external GPUs and, you know, you go down the John Syracuse list of Mac, you know, virtues of the Mac Pro.

00:32:14   How many of them are they going to sell?

00:32:15   Like, none.

00:32:16   Like, none.

00:32:17   I mean, that market is basically gone and it's, I don't think it's coming back.

00:32:21   So yeah, I think, I think I would probably guess that it's going to continue being what it is now, which is there will also be a compact version of it that you can get with the high end chip that's in the, that's in the Mac Studio shape.

00:32:37   But they've surprised us before.

00:32:40   I am waiting for a Mac Studio update.

00:32:45   I would be very sad if it's in 2025.

00:32:49   I was kind of hoping it'd be one this year.

00:32:52   They're testing an M3.

00:32:53   So my, I think this is one of the things where, like, one of the things that happens with Marcus reports is there's stuff he doesn't know.

00:32:58   And so there's this haze, this is like a fog of war over the things he doesn't know.

00:33:02   He does say that they're testing an M3 with a Mac Studio.

00:33:07   So my guess is there will be a Mac Studio update this year and it will be with the M3 Macs and M3 Ultra, presumably.

00:33:14   And that they will do that and no Mac Pro.

00:33:18   And then next year, I think it's still hazy, like the Mac Pro is being tested, but he said they'll all get updated.

00:33:24   And I have a hard time believing that they're going to hold the Mac Studio for 25 and then release it with the previous generation's chip.

00:33:31   Right. It doesn't make sense.

00:33:32   So it's more likely that what's really going to happen is that in 25, there will be an M4 Mac Studio, 25 or 26, whatever, an M4 Mac Studio.

00:33:40   And whether it has just the Macs or it has the Ultra or whatever is kind of up in the air because they're testing it.

00:33:47   Because again, it's the stuff that he knows they're testing it in is what he's reporting.

00:33:51   It doesn't mean that the other stuff isn't happening.

00:33:53   It means he doesn't know about that, so he can't report it.

00:33:56   So that's my guess is that the Mac Studio is still going to happen because he does specifically say that it's being tested with a still unreleased M3 era chip, which has got to be the M3 Ultra.

00:34:07   Yeah. And his newsletter, he says Apple could choose to wait until the M4 line for a new Ultra, but it's worth noting that an M3 variation does exist internally.

00:34:17   Because if they were going to update the Mac Studio, in theory, they would have a Macs and an Ultra for it.

00:34:21   Because it would be weird to do M3 Macs and M2 Ultra as your two.

00:34:27   But I think the expectation is that they may not update the Mac Pro even still.

00:34:32   It's kind of a little bit up in the air right now.

00:34:35   But you can understand that a bit more, right?

00:34:37   That it's the same as, like, the Mac Mini is also niche and it doesn't get updates constantly.

00:34:42   Even the iMac.

00:34:43   And so I feel like the Mac Pro definitely sits in that.

00:34:46   Maybe even the Mac Studio to a point sits in that, like, of how often does it need to be updated.

00:34:52   But for me, like, I'm just waiting.

00:34:54   It's just a little weird if they if they've designed an M3 Ultra, if they don't release it.

00:34:59   Like, that's strange, right?

00:35:01   Like, we designed a whole chip and we're testing it internally.

00:35:03   Yeah, we're just not going to ship it.

00:35:05   That's unusual.

00:35:06   I would say that that would be.

00:35:07   And maybe there are issues.

00:35:09   Maybe they tried to do it and they're like, "Nah, it's not worth it.

00:35:11   Maybe it's too expensive.

00:35:12   Maybe it doesn't sell well."

00:35:14   They figure they can just wait a year.

00:35:16   All possible.

00:35:17   But we're left wondering based on the details of what Mark Gurman says and doesn't say.

00:35:22   Yeah.

00:35:23   But I can't wait for those artificial intelligence gains.

00:35:28   Gonna get those big AI gains.

00:35:29   They poured the AI juice right in there.

00:35:31   Mm-hmm.

00:35:32   It's gonna be full of it.

00:35:33   Spring to the top.

00:35:34   Mm-hmm.

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00:37:40   So we spoke, Casey and I, on last week's episode about some stuff with the Vision Pro and as

00:37:46   to whether the Vision Pro could be considered a failure or a flop.

00:37:50   And you wrote an article about this on Macworld as well.

00:37:54   Do you want to kind of give the gist of what you're talking about?

00:37:57   I think it actually lends quite nicely back to your review of the Vision Pro as well.

00:38:01   Yeah, I mean, I tried to link it back.

00:38:03   The early days of computers, and the Apple Watch is a little bit like this, but the early

00:38:07   days of computers are like this.

00:38:08   We have gotten used to an Apple that is confident and or certainly doesn't let you see them

00:38:15   sweat and they know what they're doing and they roll out a product and they're like,

00:38:20   this is the future and we're going to sell millions of them and we're going to make them

00:38:23   in high volume and people are going to want them and they do and they buy them, they're

00:38:27   successful and all that.

00:38:29   And I think that there are people who have gotten, they either don't remember the Apple

00:38:32   that came before, they don't think of Apple that way, or maybe they just, it's been so

00:38:37   long that they don't think in this way.

00:38:39   And so I see a lot of people judging the Vision Pro based on standards that it can't and won't

00:38:48   ever meet because that's not what it is.

00:38:53   Like this is Apple at its most experimental and its most vulnerable that it's been in

00:38:59   ages.

00:39:01   And so people who write it off and say, well, you know, two months into the Vision Pro and

00:39:07   there's not a lot going on, feels like a flop.

00:39:11   And it's like, okay, whoa, it was never going to be two months in and going great.

00:39:18   It was always going to be a mess.

00:39:20   Now has Apple made mistakes?

00:39:23   It absolutely has.

00:39:24   Are there troubling things about it?

00:39:25   I wrote a whole piece about the Apple immersive video problem that they didn't release any

00:39:32   of it.

00:39:33   And then when they did, it was that MLS video that wasn't very good and suggested they didn't

00:39:36   get it.

00:39:38   And so when, I mean, you talked about it with Casey, I know that Casey and Marco talked about

00:39:42   it on ATP a little bit last week for those who listened to that podcast.

00:39:45   If you don't, basically what Marco said is, I'm not saying it's a flop.

00:39:49   I'm saying, I'm worried that Apple is not doing what is required for it to be successful.

00:39:53   And I am worried about that too.

00:39:55   But what I do see Apple do is I see them trying things and failing or not quite getting it.

00:40:06   And I don't know, I guess that could trouble you.

00:40:10   I just look at it and say, this is what this product is.

00:40:15   And this was rumored, we were all saying, you just got to ship it and see what happens and

00:40:19   figure it out and figure out what it's for and learn and get developers to try stuff

00:40:24   and have you realize, oh, this works and this doesn't work.

00:40:27   So we see it like they, the spatial personas is sort of one of the reasons we've talked

00:40:32   about this.

00:40:33   It's such a great feature, which is a plus.

00:40:37   Also like, why wasn't it there on day one?

00:40:40   That's a minus.

00:40:41   And it's like, they were incapable of shipping it on day one, apparently.

00:40:45   Just like they're incapable of shipping those environments that still say coming soon, which

00:40:50   is so weird.

00:40:51   But that is where we are, is that there are things that Apple does that are good.

00:40:57   And there are things that Apple does with the spatial video where you look at it and

00:41:01   think, oh, they don't have a clue or they're still figuring it out and they're releasing

00:41:07   things that don't make sense.

00:41:09   And that is what this is.

00:41:11   I guess what my piece is really trying to say is, if you're judging this like it's a

00:41:15   product, like every other Apple product that's been released in the last decade, you're doing

00:41:19   it wrong because that's not what this is.

00:41:22   This is a weird long game kind of thing where even Apple is going to basically be visibly

00:41:29   grappling with what this product is in public.

00:41:33   And that's not a sign of failure and it's not a sign of weakness.

00:41:37   It's a sign that this is a very different kind of product and they're worried about the long

00:41:41   run and they don't even know quite where it's going to go.

00:41:46   And I find that refreshing in a way.

00:41:48   It's frustrating in a way.

00:41:49   It allows us moments of brilliance, like with spatial personas, where out of nowhere, we're

00:41:53   like, oh my God, this is an amazing feature.

00:41:56   Literally like the week after they did that MLS video that was bad.

00:42:01   And to Marco's point, and I think it's a good one, the danger, the biggest danger Vision

00:42:06   Pro faces is Apple losing sight of it.

00:42:10   Is Apple taking its eye off the ball?

00:42:12   Because we, and I know Marco has been burned by this because he's been covering this stuff

00:42:17   a long time.

00:42:18   Anybody who's been closely observing Apple over the years knows that the company has

00:42:22   a tendency to launch things with great fanfare and then never pay attention to them again.

00:42:29   Kind of get bored of them.

00:42:30   Yeah.

00:42:31   I would argue that they've gotten better at that recently.

00:42:34   Still not great and only in a few areas, but they've gotten a little better at that.

00:42:37   It's that classic, we launch a feature and it's going to change the world and it comes

00:42:41   out and it's got some obvious limitations and bugs and everybody goes, oh, well, I'm

00:42:45   sure they'll address those.

00:42:46   And the year goes by and the new OS comes out and they didn't touch it.

00:42:50   And another year goes by and maybe they address some of what happened two years ago.

00:42:56   And Vision Pro, not only is Vision Pro the kind of product that's going to be weird like

00:42:59   this, but Vision Pro is the kind of product where Apple has to just keep fighting, just

00:43:05   keep working, just keep throwing things in there and learning and growing.

00:43:11   It's not the kind of product you can ship and say, well, job done and walk away.

00:43:16   And I think that's what is inspiring Marco to be concerned about the future of the Vision

00:43:20   Pro.

00:43:21   And that does concern me too.

00:43:23   But I do see a lot of stuff coming from Apple, even now where they're doing things where

00:43:27   they're like, ah, see, the Space Personas is a great example.

00:43:30   It's not great that it didn't ship with the product, but when they did turn it on in Vision

00:43:34   OS 1.1, we all had that kind of magical campfire moment where we were, five of us on that call

00:43:41   and was like, oh, yeah, this is pretty good.

00:43:44   So they just need to keep chipping away.

00:43:48   But I think that there are people out there in the broader world who just don't know how

00:43:54   to judge a product like this because they just expect every...

00:43:56   I mean, remember the Apple Watch?

00:43:58   Everybody expected it.

00:43:59   Well, not everybody.

00:44:00   Lots of people expected it to literally be another iPhone.

00:44:03   And all of us were like, well, no, first off, it's just an iPhone accessory really.

00:44:07   But like, no, there's never going to be another iPhone.

00:44:10   That was really special.

00:44:13   Vision Pro is even further out there than the Apple Watch was.

00:44:17   And so that was my point in the article is just that do not judge the Vision Pro.

00:44:23   You can judge it, but don't judge it as a finished product that is ready to go and that

00:44:26   it didn't sell a million units immediately.

00:44:30   And it's weird and taking a journey and things are unfinished and like, that's what it is.

00:44:36   It's going to take a lot of time.

00:44:38   And if you're impatient, I can't tell you not to be impatient, but like patience for

00:44:43   the Vision Pro is essential because it's nowhere near finished.

00:44:49   It's nowhere near a product that makes sense for anybody.

00:44:53   And I understand how that is for some people, like really different to the Apple that we

00:44:57   have known for the last 20 years.

00:44:59   Yeah, completely.

00:45:00   Like, they haven't done this, but I feel like I am not surprised by the fact that it is

00:45:09   this way for the Vision Pro because it, in theory, is so different to anything that they've

00:45:14   done before that there was going to be this steep curve.

00:45:18   And I think it was made clear to us in just the two simple facts of the name of the product

00:45:24   and its price.

00:45:25   It's like that this is a long game that they're playing.

00:45:28   You mentioned my original review of Vision Pro and I'll just to tie that back one more

00:45:34   time.

00:45:35   I'll just say I was a kid when the first personal computers came out.

00:45:39   And if you look back to what they cost, like the Commodore PET, the TRS-80, the Apple II

00:45:45   from the late '70s and early '80s, those computers were incredibly expensive by today's standards.

00:45:53   These are like $5,000 or $10,000 computers.

00:45:57   And what did they do?

00:46:00   Kind of nothing.

00:46:02   Like kind of nothing.

00:46:04   It was ages.

00:46:05   I don't think, like in college, by the time I got to college in the late '80s, most, many

00:46:14   kids in college had a computer.

00:46:17   Many, not most.

00:46:20   And that was a very elite group because it was college kids, people whose parents had

00:46:26   sent them to college.

00:46:28   It was, I feel like in the '90s before computers were really, and then the internet or AOL

00:46:36   or things like that sold a lot of computers.

00:46:38   It was really until the '90s.

00:46:40   And I first used a computer in the late '70s.

00:46:43   It took more than a decade, a bit more than a decade for that thing to be kind of anything.

00:46:50   And in those early days, they were like nothing.

00:46:53   They didn't do anything.

00:46:54   And nobody knew what they were going to be good for.

00:46:56   And then somebody did VisiCalc and everybody's like, "Oh, spreadsheets is a thing that computers

00:47:02   are good for."

00:47:03   And they figured it out.

00:47:04   And that, I mean, again, I'm not saying it will succeed like a computer.

00:47:07   I'm just saying that Vision Pro, that's what it is.

00:47:10   It's a thing that nobody really understands, including Apple.

00:47:13   And they're all trying to figure it out and throw technology at it and throw software

00:47:16   at it and live with it and see what emerges.

00:47:19   And it's just, I think that's exciting, but it's also very unlike modern Apple, which

00:47:25   is just sort of like a machine that generates demand for tech products and then just like

00:47:31   pops them out and everybody buys them and loves them.

00:47:34   And like, this is not that product.

00:47:36   It's just not, it is weird.

00:47:38   And I love that it's weird and I love that Apple's struggling with it and I love that

00:47:41   we don't know what it is, but you got to judge it.

00:47:43   Like it, or to put it another way, it is a flop and a failure if what you thought was

00:47:50   that it was going to be judged like every other Apple product, because you're judging

00:47:55   it wrong.

00:47:56   Do you have any expectations for Vision OS 2?

00:48:01   I think there's stuff in there.

00:48:02   I mean, I have lots of hopes.

00:48:04   I would like to think that there's a bunch of stuff in there that they, in the development

00:48:08   process that they just put on another whiteboard somewhere and said, we can't do this for 1.0.

00:48:14   And that for two, they triage things from that list of like, these are the things we're

00:48:21   going to bring into version two.

00:48:23   And my hope is actually that it's going to be one of these annual statement things that

00:48:27   Apple does these days, where when they announced Vision OS 2, they're going to say, here are

00:48:32   all the features it's going to have, but it's not going to get them all in September.

00:48:35   It's going to get them all in.

00:48:36   Which I think is actually smart for this product.

00:48:39   You don't need to rush it.

00:48:41   Over the next year, here's what we're going to put into the Vision Pro.

00:48:45   I do hope that there is stuff that, my expectation is what you're saying, right?

00:48:51   It will become clear, like, oh, okay.

00:48:53   Like you see all these things like, oh, now all of our apps have, you know, we don't have

00:48:58   any Apple apps that are compatible apps anymore.

00:49:02   And whatever new features get announced for the whole operating system go in there along

00:49:07   with some other stuff that we hadn't considered.

00:49:09   You know, I'm expecting some good bug fixes, some good features and some new things that

00:49:17   it can do.

00:49:18   Like that's what I want to see.

00:49:20   Like I really want to see them continue to keep their foot down on this product.

00:49:27   And I think they need to show that they're going to do that with enhancements to Vision

00:49:31   OS.

00:49:32   Like more environments, third party environments, like stuff like that.

00:49:37   Like just keep pushing it.

00:49:39   That's what I really want to see.

00:49:40   I really hope that there is stuff.

00:49:42   Yeah.

00:49:43   I think there will be, I'll say again, going back to what Marco was talking about on ATP,

00:49:51   Efficient OS 2 is like super underwhelming, soft-pedaled, nothing.

00:49:56   That's scary.

00:49:57   Yeah.

00:49:58   That's scary because this is not a product that they can take their foot off the gas,

00:50:01   right?

00:50:02   This is a product where they go, "Oh, well, we're just putting it out there.

00:50:04   We'll see what people do with it."

00:50:05   Like, no, you can't do that.

00:50:07   You have to keep on going.

00:50:09   I assume that they are, but that would be a real bad sign.

00:50:12   Why are you spending billions of dollars to ship your essentially like prototype and then

00:50:19   walk away?

00:50:20   It doesn't make sense.

00:50:21   So I hope that we get a sense of, also, I mean, it only shipped recently, right?

00:50:27   So this may not be the release for this.

00:50:29   But the more you get the sense that Apple is also observing how people use this thing

00:50:34   and that's helping them zero in, the better.

00:50:37   But that feels more like a Vision OS 3 thing, honestly.

00:50:39   This feels more like, here's all the other stuff that we know should be in there and

00:50:43   we just didn't get it in there.

00:50:45   It's like the early days of iOS or of Mac OS X where the first few releases, it was

00:50:49   a lot of like, "Oh, yes, you mean those obvious gaps where features are completely missing?"

00:50:54   Yeah.

00:50:55   Okay, here they are, right?

00:50:57   There was a lot of that early on.

00:50:59   Never forget, it took to iPhone OS 3 to get copy and paste.

00:51:03   Yeah.

00:51:04   And version 2 for App Store.

00:51:07   Isn't that wild that the App Store was before copy and paste?

00:51:11   Yeah.

00:51:12   What was going on, you know?

00:51:14   What were they doing over there?

00:51:16   They were, yeah, I think they were convinced that copy and paste was an esoteric feature

00:51:21   that people didn't need and they also didn't know what the interaction was going to be

00:51:23   on it and so they just kept, yeah.

00:51:26   Incredible.

00:51:27   So, talking about products that are being considered a flop, let's talk about the AI

00:51:33   pin from Humane.

00:51:34   Yeah, there's a flop.

00:51:36   Well, so this is the thing.

00:51:39   Is it?

00:51:40   Right, so this is the question, right, I think is interesting.

00:51:43   So the reviews are out.

00:51:45   I think that my initial thought was, "It's as bad as we thought it could be."

00:51:51   But then the more I've seen, the more I've heard, it's like, "Actually, I think this

00:51:54   product has reviewed worse than I expected."

00:51:59   I think some of the things about it are clear that the hardware is nicely made and there

00:52:06   are parts of it that are good.

00:52:08   There is a particular part of the hardware that is bad, which is that it gets hot, which

00:52:12   is strange.

00:52:13   It's got that laser.

00:52:16   My hope would be that they could amend that.

00:52:20   There might be something going wrong with the way that it's processing information,

00:52:25   that it's heating up.

00:52:26   I don't know.

00:52:27   Apple certainly released products that start out hot and then figure it out.

00:52:30   Exactly.

00:52:31   Do you remember the iPhone 15 that Instagram was making the phone hot?

00:52:36   Weird stuff can happen.

00:52:38   I've heard some people suggesting, and it could make sense, that it's doing, basically

00:52:43   constantly it's trying to talk to the cloud and that maybe it's not being very efficient

00:52:48   in areas where it doesn't have good reception.

00:52:51   But the thing about the AI pin in the reviews that I've seen, and for me my favorite review

00:52:58   so far has been David Pierce's review at The Verge.

00:53:01   And Marcus Brownlee published a video that was really good too, that essentially there

00:53:07   are really good ideas in here, but this product ain't it.

00:53:13   But the ideas are good.

00:53:15   Yes.

00:53:16   When they announced it, that was my thought, is like, this does feel like the future.

00:53:19   And I have no doubt that stuff like this is going to be a part of how we interact with

00:53:22   the world around us in the future.

00:53:25   The problem is, yeah, the hardware is early.

00:53:29   It made me think of Google Glass in that way.

00:53:32   Yeah.

00:53:33   Yeah, but it's also misguided.

00:53:34   And I know this has been discussed a lot, but just, I'll say it again, to differentiate

00:53:39   their product, they did one of these things that's like an old infomercial where it's

00:53:43   like, "Oh, fed up with your smartphone.

00:53:46   Oh, I hate my smartphone.

00:53:48   I wish there was something better.

00:53:50   Now there's the humane AI pin."

00:53:52   And fundamentally people like their smartphones.

00:53:54   And I do not understand these marketers who think that the solution to sell a tech product

00:54:02   is to get people to say, "Oh yes, I also hate using my smartphone," because it's fantasy.

00:54:09   People love their phones.

00:54:10   That's why they're looking at them all the time.

00:54:13   It's because they love it.

00:54:15   And this product is built in a way that sort of like stands alone from your smartphone.

00:54:20   Like, "Oh no, no, no, no.

00:54:21   You don't need that."

00:54:22   Now, I wrote a piece about this on Friday that just published on Six Colors.

00:54:29   The other part of this though is why does it not connect to the phone very well?

00:54:34   And one of the reasons is, well, if they integrated to the phone, they have some choices.

00:54:40   Like they could integrate with Android, it might be hard, but they could do it.

00:54:44   But what integration with the iPhone could they do?

00:54:47   And in the US that's more than half the market.

00:54:52   And I think if Apple had come out with a version of the Apple Watch essentially with an AI

00:55:00   model, which presumably they'll have like this fall, maybe even an on-device AI model

00:55:07   for the Apple Watch, a new Apple Watch, which would be very interesting.

00:55:09   And David Pierce suggested that the AI pin is kind of like a cellular Apple Watch, except

00:55:16   the cellular Apple Watch can do more things.

00:55:19   And it doesn't have its own phone number.

00:55:21   And the thing is the Apple Watch has its own phone number.

00:55:25   They handle it.

00:55:26   But they handle it.

00:55:27   And so it rings the same and it texts the same as your actual phone.

00:55:30   So this is my point, which is the truth is that when we talk about like how the DOJ talked

00:55:37   about how Apple is by not allowing other smartphones to have access to iOS in the same way that

00:55:44   they do with Apple Watch, that Apple is making it harder for people to switch out of the

00:55:50   Apple ecosystem because you buy an Apple Watch and now you would have to throw it away when

00:55:57   you go to Android.

00:55:59   Whereas if you had a competitive smartwatch that worked on both platforms and you bought

00:56:04   that for your iPhone, then you could do that.

00:56:07   And the DOJ at least claims that Apple's home field advantage there is too powerful.

00:56:11   I'm reading this a slightly different way here and saying, can Humain or anybody else

00:56:20   really make a product that is like this without it integrating into our digital lives?

00:56:29   And that means our smartphones and the apps on them and the data stores that are on our

00:56:33   smartphones.

00:56:36   And I think the answer is no.

00:56:38   And I think that beyond that, what you have to say is, okay, so that means that every

00:56:42   company that wants to make something that's innovative and new has to follow the rules

00:56:48   of integration with Android and iPhone.

00:56:52   And more than that, they have to deal with the limitations of Android and iPhone.

00:56:58   And the more I thought about this, I thought, well, this is the argument.

00:57:01   This is actually the anti-competitive and anti-innovation argument of having the duopoly

00:57:07   of Android and iOS, which is a product like this kind of can't work unless you're deeply

00:57:16   integrated.

00:57:17   And ultimately it makes me, I mean, I just from a, if we back up a little bit and I look

00:57:23   at the AI pin, one of the things I think about it is a product like this will never work

00:57:27   unless it's made by Google or Apple or Samsung.

00:57:30   It just won't never work because it needs that integration.

00:57:34   And that's the secret.

00:57:35   I know that's the secret sauce that Apple has.

00:57:37   And we've talked about it here endlessly and it is true.

00:57:40   It is a secret magical thing that Apple does where they can tie it all together and it

00:57:43   makes a good product.

00:57:45   But the other way that cuts is that if someone else wants to do it and the way that product

00:57:51   is going to succeed is that it needs to tightly integrate with the rest of your life, including

00:57:55   your smartphone.

00:57:57   And your smartphone manufacturer is like, no, not so fast.

00:58:02   It can't be done or it can only be done with great difficulty and it hurts the product.

00:58:06   And then the smartphone platform owners make their own products that are actually integrated

00:58:12   and they win again.

00:58:13   This is the inherent problem with the product, which you said, right?

00:58:18   It doesn't matter if they fix every hardware problem.

00:58:21   It doesn't matter if, you know, cause one of the things like, Oh, it's slow.

00:58:24   It will get faster, right?

00:58:25   Like all of this stuff will improve.

00:58:27   Everything's going to get better.

00:58:31   It will always fall down at it's divorced from your phone, which is where all your information

00:58:40   is.

00:58:41   It's not just the API, right?

00:58:42   It's diverse from your phone.

00:58:44   We live in a world where, and again, this is the, this is, I'm not trying to make a

00:58:48   DOJ argument here necessarily, but what I am saying is we live in a world where we're

00:58:53   very tied to our data, our personal data cloud, and that's our smartphone.

00:58:58   It's also everything that's in the cloud.

00:58:59   It's in our apps, what apps we choose to use, all of that.

00:59:03   And one of the challenges because they're, what it does is it is raised the bar.

00:59:09   The table stakes are so high that say humane wanted to do that.

00:59:16   Like what are they going to do?

00:59:18   Are they, do they have to build their own integrations with every cloud service and

00:59:23   every app and all these things that Apple and Google just, they've got it, they built

00:59:29   it themselves, or they had a decade plus of app developers tying it all together and it's

00:59:35   all there.

00:59:36   And like, I'm not saying that Apple and Google haven't done the work to do that and that

00:59:38   they don't deserve some benefit from that.

00:59:41   But what I'm saying is I look at, I look at something like the humane AI pin and I think,

00:59:46   like, what are they supposed to do?

00:59:50   It is almost an impossible problem to solve for a, someone who is not a tech giant to

00:59:56   make a product because all of us have this huge amount of data in all these different

01:00:02   places.

01:00:03   And the product's no good, right?

01:00:04   Bottom line, the product's no good.

01:00:06   If it doesn't integrate, if the humane AI pin talked to my iPhone and could look at

01:00:11   my stuff on my iPhone and share my iPhone's phone number and do all of those things, would

01:00:15   it be a more compelling product?

01:00:16   It sure would.

01:00:18   100%.

01:00:19   If this product was able to integrate, we'd be having a different conversation.

01:00:25   Like for sure we'd be having a different conversation than the one that we're having right now.

01:00:29   Like if it was able to just understand what was on my phone and be able to handle everything,

01:00:35   the conversation would be like, the battery life's not great, gets a bit warm and it's

01:00:39   a little slow, but the promise is clear.

01:00:42   And like, so you know, the people that are saying the problem, and I see it, you see it, you can see that this could work, but the table stakes are so high.

01:00:51   I immediately thought, boy, if they do a new Apple Watch in the fall that is capable of

01:00:56   running at least a small machine learning model and then also using Apple's back end

01:01:01   or the phone's processor or whatever it is to essentially do what the AI pin is doing

01:01:08   but on an Apple Watch, it's like, wow, like that's so cool.

01:01:14   And I think within reach for Apple.

01:01:17   And that's immediately what I thought.

01:01:19   The idea is not bad.

01:01:20   And I also know what you said about like access all the data on my phone.

01:01:24   I was like, well, yeah, of course that's a security issue and privacy issue and all of

01:01:26   those things, right?

01:01:27   But again, also it's an integration issue and it's a competitive issue and it's all

01:01:33   of those things too.

01:01:34   And I'm not bellyaching for humane here.

01:01:37   Like I think this is a misguided product, but it does strike me like even if they did

01:01:41   everything right, I'm not sure it could possibly work because I really can't conceive what

01:01:47   I say in my piece.

01:01:48   I really can't conceive of a product like this possibly succeeding unless it is done

01:01:53   by one of a list of tech companies and there are only about five companies on that list.

01:01:59   And/or the iPhone is forced to be opened up.

01:02:05   To what the department of justice is asking for.

01:02:07   The iPhone and Android are both forced.

01:02:09   I mean, I guess Android's got a lot of this stuff now and they chose not to do this, but

01:02:13   I think one of the reasons is the lay of the land is why they chose not to do this with

01:02:16   the AI pin.

01:02:18   But yeah, this is, I don't know.

01:02:20   I don't have an answer here other than yeah, maybe the problem is that a lot of laws don't

01:02:28   exist to address an issue like this.

01:02:31   And also governments are loath to say to Apple, you can't integrate hardware and software

01:02:40   together because that's what they do and they make good products with it.

01:02:44   But this is the other side of that, which is it does feel very much like, especially

01:02:47   as an iPhone user, that if there's a cool new thing out there that looks interesting,

01:02:53   my only real hope is that Apple makes one.

01:02:58   And this goes in other dumb product categories too.

01:03:01   I have a Google Home Mini, whatever, Nest, whatever it's called now, but with a little

01:03:06   screen, I used to have an Amazon Echo and neither of them is very good.

01:03:12   And I would love better integration and something from Apple.

01:03:15   And that's why I keep wanting Apple to make that version of that product, a HomePod with

01:03:19   the screen.

01:03:20   It's mostly because the ones that currently exist aren't very good.

01:03:23   And one of the reasons they're not very good is they don't integrate because they're not

01:03:27   from Apple and Apple is the one who basically needs to do the integration.

01:03:30   >> I think that there is a thread that ties the AI pin and the Vision Pro together in

01:03:37   a way.

01:03:38   Which is what we've spoken about, I've already said it a couple times, is the table stakes

01:03:42   are so high.

01:03:44   And with Apple, they just didn't seem to do it all.

01:03:47   Right?

01:03:48   Like, as I said, there are things that are missing from the Vision Pro, there are things

01:03:51   that weren't developed for the Vision Pro, like Apple's Calendar app, for example, it's

01:03:55   not fully there.

01:03:57   But the AI pin is also missing a bunch of table stakes right now.

01:04:01   Like you can't set an alarm on it, right, for example.

01:04:05   But it's also, even if they had done all of that, they can't get to the table stakes of

01:04:10   an iPhone because it's too hard to do immediately what they need to do.

01:04:18   And I think it's going to -- I don't know how to solve this problem, right?

01:04:22   Because like it can't order an Uber unless Uber tie into it.

01:04:26   Why would Uber do that?

01:04:29   What is their incentive to doing that?

01:04:32   This is going to be very complicated.

01:04:34   And it comes back to what you're saying, which is that unless -- for this type of product

01:04:39   to really work, it seems like it has to come from Apple and Google.

01:04:45   And I don't think that that is great.

01:04:48   What could actually happen is that someone just makes a really good version of this type

01:04:52   of product that can integrate with Android somehow, and that is maybe more realistic

01:04:57   because it might be able to integrate with an Android phone because it is not fully but

01:05:01   inherently more open or is at least encouraged to do so.

01:05:05   And maybe Google would be more willing to have their Google services available on another

01:05:11   device because that's just kind of what they do.

01:05:13   There's a lot of other things at play here too because there's also just the fact that

01:05:17   we live in a world where the big companies have so much power and ability.

01:05:20   So if a product like that that you described existed, how many would it take one year for

01:05:26   Samsung to knock it off and two years for them to outdo it?

01:05:30   And they already have all their deep integration and all the market penetration of their phones.

01:05:36   So it would be a problem.

01:05:39   But I also want to say, the AI pin, it's not the best example.

01:05:44   It gives me these vibes.

01:05:46   Basically I get some bad vibes by the idea that I look at this product and I think, "Well,

01:05:52   of course they can't do this because they can't integrate or integrate well."

01:05:57   It's also possible that the problem with the humane AI pin is that when they started, they

01:06:02   thought they were building an amazing piece of hardware, and then they realized the AI

01:06:06   language model things were happening and they shifted gears.

01:06:09   And now what they've basically built is to quote Steve Jobs, "A feature, not a product."

01:06:18   And I think that there's some truth in that.

01:06:19   I think a device that listens to your commands and runs them through a machine learning model

01:06:25   and gives you answers in five years is probably literally describing every device.

01:06:33   And so what does humane do that's special?

01:06:36   And it's not the laser projector, and it's probably not the fact that they've got a second

01:06:41   battery on the other side of a magnet.

01:06:43   And it's probably nothing.

01:06:46   Or if it's anything, it's some little quirks of hardware design, but it's not their AI

01:06:50   model.

01:06:51   They're just using a cellular connection to a cloud service that's running an AI model.

01:06:55   It's entirely possible that in a year or two, everything that was even a little bit unique

01:07:01   about the AI pin will just be washed away because it will be available on every platform

01:07:05   everywhere.

01:07:07   And so of course, a feature is not going to succeed if you're trying to build a feature

01:07:12   and not a product because the platform owners will build that feature.

01:07:16   They will Sherlock, so to speak, the humane AI pin.

01:07:21   And we already know the reports, Apple's totally going to do this.

01:07:24   I don't know if they're going to make a pin.

01:07:26   They have the Apple watch.

01:07:28   And then you throw in like, maybe they'll have cameras on your AirPods or I don't know

01:07:34   what else.

01:07:35   But this is where the world is going.

01:07:37   It just gives me the heebie jeebies a little bit to think about the fact that somebody

01:07:42   says, "Oh, here's an interesting thing you could do with tech."

01:07:45   And the answer tends to be, "Yeah, but if it doesn't really come from Google or Apple,

01:07:49   nobody's ever going to do it."

01:07:51   That troubles me.

01:07:52   Even though I get why, it troubles me.

01:07:55   After seeing this, I would love to know what the AI pin was going to be a year and a half

01:08:01   ago.

01:08:02   Yeah.

01:08:03   What was this product actually going to be before it became the AI pin?

01:08:09   What was it?

01:08:10   What was it?

01:08:11   Yeah, I don't know.

01:08:12   Because they were building it.

01:08:14   But what was it going to do?

01:08:18   Very strange.

01:08:19   I don't know, personal cloud, an Alexa on your shirt?

01:08:23   Yeah, but then it doesn't do so many things.

01:08:28   I know.

01:08:30   So like, did they just get rid of it?

01:08:32   Well, maybe.

01:08:33   Maybe they built an operating system they threw out to build a new one and then couldn't

01:08:36   get everything ready.

01:08:38   I feel for them, but they took the cash, they took the shot.

01:08:44   And the other thing that I see some people say, "Well, if they do a good job here, maybe

01:08:47   they'll get acquired."

01:08:48   That's what I'm talking about though.

01:08:50   Is it the end goal of the tech industry?

01:08:53   Okay, here's a tangent just for a moment.

01:08:57   Cable Sasser gave a talk at GDC.

01:08:59   They posted the video.

01:09:00   It's amazing.

01:09:01   I wish they put it on YouTube.

01:09:03   It's about play date.

01:09:05   It's not on YouTube now.

01:09:06   Yeah, you got to watch it on GDC, but you can airplay it to your TV if you want.

01:09:10   I watched it last night and it's great.

01:09:12   But one of the things he says is, he says, "Panic is always described as a startup."

01:09:19   So we've been around for two decades.

01:09:21   We are not a startup.

01:09:22   But the tech industry doesn't seem to understand what we are, which is what I would call a

01:09:28   lifestyle business.

01:09:29   I forget what Cable calls it.

01:09:33   Now I can't think of the word.

01:09:34   It was a slow biz.

01:09:35   That was it.

01:09:36   Thank you, ZM Nox.

01:09:38   Slow biz is what he calls it.

01:09:40   But he's like, in the rest of the world, this would just be called a business, like a hardware

01:09:47   store.

01:09:48   It is a business that operates and makes money and has employees and just goes on.

01:09:55   But in the tech industry, there's this obsession with, it's a startup and then it's going to

01:10:00   get acquired or it's going to go public.

01:10:02   These are the ways that you do it.

01:10:04   But this is my point about something like the AI Pen Avian.

01:10:07   You're like, "Oh, well, if they do a good job, they'll just get acquired."

01:10:10   It's like, "Well, yeah, but that's how we got where we are," which is your only choices

01:10:17   are to really luck out and go public and make a lot of money and hope to one day be at the

01:10:23   feet of the tech giants.

01:10:25   Or it's to have a tech giant buy you and give you money and then you're subsumed.

01:10:29   Is it a win for anybody other than the investors in Humane if the AI Pen ends up having some

01:10:35   interesting tech in it that makes Google or Samsung or Apple or Amazon or Microsoft snap

01:10:42   it up?

01:10:43   I mean, no.

01:10:47   That gets us back to where we started.

01:10:50   I don't know.

01:10:52   That's not an answer to say, "What if they get subsumed into a tech giant?"

01:10:58   Slow biz.

01:10:59   I like it.

01:11:01   This episode is brought to you by our friends over at DeleteMe.

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01:13:23   It is time for some Ask Upgrade Questions.

01:13:28   First question comes from Jonathan who says, "Jason, new Kobo readers were just announced.

01:13:32   I've had a Kindle Paperwhite 2012 model for the last 11 years.

01:13:37   It can't get to websites anymore, but it still connects to Wi-Fi and syncs books I borrow

01:13:43   from the library.

01:13:44   What should I consider when evaluating e-readers today?

01:13:47   Are text specs relevant?

01:13:48   Any recommendations from the various form factors available would be appreciated."

01:13:52   Oh man, I love this subject so much.

01:13:55   I know you do.

01:13:58   And I update my thing about like which ebook reader you should buy.

01:14:01   So one thing is 2012 Kindle Paperwhite, there's probably a higher resolution screen available

01:14:07   now.

01:14:08   So the text will be crisper.

01:14:11   I assume that's a, I don't know off the top of my head, I assume that's a backlit model,

01:14:15   but the other, here are the things.

01:14:16   You want, it's side lighting, but it's like backlighting.

01:14:20   You want a side lit model.

01:14:21   You want a model that lights itself up so you don't have to clip a book light on it

01:14:23   when you read it in the dark.

01:14:26   That used to be a thing.

01:14:28   The new screens are great because they're all high resolution.

01:14:32   They're all like 300 DPI.

01:14:33   They're all like a laser printed text, it's crisp.

01:14:38   You don't need a color screen, even though the Kobo ones have them.

01:14:41   They're nice.

01:14:42   And they're probably, I look forward to see these new screens because they may also be

01:14:45   nicer black and white screens, but they're kind of unnecessary.

01:14:48   I would say ideally you'd want one with USB-C and not micro USB because that's modern.

01:14:56   You get one with a new screen.

01:14:57   And then the questions that you should ask yourself are how big do you want it to be?

01:15:02   Because they make a really nice larger screen.

01:15:06   That's the Kobo Forma, I think is the, what is the one that my wife has is the Sage, Kobo

01:15:15   Sage is what it's called.

01:15:18   Really nice.

01:15:19   It's like a seven inch screen.

01:15:20   So it's like reading a hardcover.

01:15:21   But if you want a smaller one, like I have a Kobo Libra, which is smaller and really

01:15:28   nice and it's about the same size as a Kindle.

01:15:33   The other thing I would say is buttons.

01:15:37   Do you like buttons or not?

01:15:39   You can tap on the screen to change the pages.

01:15:41   I really like page turning buttons.

01:15:43   Amazon doesn't.

01:15:45   So if you like page turning buttons, the Kobos have the advantage.

01:15:52   And a flush screen is the other one.

01:15:53   Amazon's Paperwhite, I believe has a flush screen now.

01:15:58   And the larger Kobo does, but the smaller one doesn't.

01:16:01   And so stuff can get in the little cracks and you've got to kind of blow it out.

01:16:08   I still think that probably the best choice for a regular person is a Kindle Paperwhite

01:16:14   because they're cheap and they're easy.

01:16:16   And Kindle.

01:16:17   Amazon, all the books are there.

01:16:20   Well, all the books are on Kobo.

01:16:22   So here's the thing.

01:16:23   So a note about Kindle and Kobo.

01:16:25   All the books are on both, libraries work with both and it's just not that big a deal.

01:16:33   So especially since in this case, Jonathan's talking about the library.

01:16:39   It's not a problem either way.

01:16:41   Okay.

01:16:42   Yeah.

01:16:43   So I would say, look at what the Kindle Paperwhite is and see if that interests you.

01:16:49   It's probably going to be faster at turning pages and the text will look nicer.

01:16:53   And those are the reasons to get it and make sure that it, I mean, they all have lights

01:16:56   now, so that'll be an upgrade maybe for you.

01:16:58   I don't know.

01:16:59   And look at the Kobos because I switched to Kobo primarily because I was kind of tired

01:17:04   of being in the Amazon ecosystem for that stuff and all the same stuff is available.

01:17:10   And it also has Pocket support, which is nice.

01:17:14   So you can add articles on the web from Pocket and sync them and read them on your Kobo.

01:17:18   I'd forgotten what Pocket was initially and was surprised by the idea of Pocket support.

01:17:25   It fits in your pocket?

01:17:26   You can fit it in your pocket.

01:17:27   You just got to have a big pocket.

01:17:28   Like you got to have a big pocket.

01:17:30   What does that mean?

01:17:31   Oh, it goes in your pocket.

01:17:32   I was like, okay.

01:17:33   No, everybody knows.

01:17:34   Kindles don't support Pockets.

01:17:35   You put a Kindle in a pocket, jump right out of there.

01:17:38   You can't trust that thing.

01:17:40   Amazing.

01:17:41   Tell you what I want, Jason.

01:17:43   I'll tell you what I want.

01:17:44   I want an Android e-reader with a high quality color screen.

01:17:51   That's what I want.

01:17:52   I want to read comic books.

01:17:54   So this is what I was going to say is comics are different and the small e-readers are

01:17:59   not appropriate for comics.

01:18:00   They're too small.

01:18:01   They're too small.

01:18:03   I think the smaller iPad Pro is too small for comics, but certainly a Kindle or equivalent

01:18:09   is too small for comics.

01:18:10   Well, I'm reading my comics on an iPad mini, so I'm making it work.

01:18:14   It's just not as nice.

01:18:18   And I've tried a lot of weird Android readers and we'll get there.

01:18:25   It's going to happen someday.

01:18:26   The color screens, the E and color screens are getting a lot better.

01:18:30   So there's a lot of choices.

01:18:33   But Kindle Paperwhite is probably the current, whatever it is, is probably the best choice.

01:18:37   But I also really like the Kindle or the Kobo Libra.

01:18:40   You don't need the color version though.

01:18:42   Kelvin asks, I just got a vision pro, but before I unbox it, I have a thought.

01:18:46   What if I never unbox it and keep it as a collector's item?

01:18:49   The original iPhone in box form can sell for more than $50,000 these days.

01:18:54   What do you think about just keeping it?

01:18:55   Mike, you take it.

01:18:58   Kelvin finds some joy in your life.

01:18:59   You know, live, live for now.

01:19:02   Don't live your life for a potential future that may never come.

01:19:05   I would like to point you towards Beanie Babies as a thing to consider.

01:19:10   Episode 100 of the podcast that I do with Real iPhone co-founder Stephen Hackett is called

01:19:15   Ungenius where we take weird Wikipedia articles and we talk about them.

01:19:19   Episode 100 was about Beanie Babies and this was the thing people did with Beanie Babies

01:19:24   and they lived to regret it.

01:19:25   But I'll just say, if you've bought the vision pro, you surely bought it for a reason.

01:19:30   Use it.

01:19:31   Like, just unbox the thing.

01:19:33   Put it on.

01:19:34   Watch the masters.

01:19:35   That's what people are talking about right now.

01:19:37   The golf masters, the apps were good.

01:19:38   I haven't tried it yet, but people seem excited.

01:19:40   It's too late now.

01:19:41   The masters is over.

01:19:42   I mean, maybe you can watch old clips.

01:19:44   Like highlights or old stuff.

01:19:47   So here's the thing that I've learned is by the time you recognize that a certain kind

01:19:55   of thing could be bought and saved so that it rises in price at a later time, it's too

01:20:06   late.

01:20:08   That's my advice is by the time you're thinking about speculating, it's too late.

01:20:15   Because what will happen is, because Beanie Babies is a good example, comic books in the

01:20:20   nineties, they put out all these special covers and number ones and all those things and there

01:20:24   was a huge, and it like collapsed the industry.

01:20:27   And the reason is everybody thought they were collectibles.

01:20:30   So they bought them and saved them.

01:20:32   Guess what?

01:20:34   When everybody buys them, there's no market for them because everybody's got them.

01:20:38   So the original iPhones are collectible because people didn't think it would be a collectible.

01:20:42   Because nobody's kept them in the box, right?

01:20:44   And the ones that were kept in the box accidentally or whatever are incredibly rare and valuable.

01:20:49   But I'll guarantee you there are a bunch of people out there now who buy new Apple products

01:20:54   and keep them in the box and put them in the vault somewhere.

01:20:58   And as a result, those ones will never have the value.

01:21:01   It's like no Pokemon card is ever going to be as valuable as the Charizard from the original

01:21:05   set because now there's value in Pokemon cards.

01:21:09   It's all trading cards, right?

01:21:10   It's like a similar thing.

01:21:11   Yeah, the Inverted Jenny was a one-time deal.

01:21:14   I don't know what that is.

01:21:16   Oh man, that would be a great, that would be a great, ungenius episode, the Inverted

01:21:21   Jenny.

01:21:22   Inverted Jenny, Wikipedia.

01:21:25   That will be sent to Steven right now.

01:21:29   Maybe it will find its way into a future episode.

01:21:32   It's a stamp.

01:21:33   Oh, okay.

01:21:35   It's printed upside down.

01:21:36   Whoops.

01:21:37   Da da da da da da.

01:21:43   The final question comes from Adam.

01:21:44   With AirPods having become so ubiquitous, have either of you developed any personal

01:21:49   etiquette around their usage in public or with family?

01:21:53   I was thinking about this the other day because I had a whole conversation with a lady.

01:21:55   I was out walking my dog and she was walking a dog without a leash and I was like, "Oh

01:22:02   geez," because my dog gets very excited when she sees other dogs when we're out on the

01:22:05   walk and she's on a leash and a dog on a leash and a dog not on a leash.

01:22:09   There can be bad reactions because they can be scared or aggressive.

01:22:14   My dog gets scared.

01:22:16   But I came to realize this dog, Omar, is his name.

01:22:20   I remember the dog's name and not the lady's name.

01:22:22   That tells you something about me.

01:22:24   Omar was a sweetheart.

01:22:27   He's super nonreactive and he just walked around and I chatted with her.

01:22:32   After 30 seconds of chatting with her, my dog had calmed down and they were sniffing

01:22:36   each other and it was all really nice.

01:22:39   I found out where she lives and she actually lives next to another white boxer that's in

01:22:42   my neighborhood.

01:22:43   I was like, "Oh, that's Rosie's house."

01:22:45   She said the name of the lady who lives there.

01:22:48   Again, I don't remember her name, but I do remember the name of the dog who lives there.

01:22:52   I'm bad with names of humans, apparently.

01:22:56   We had this nice conversation.

01:22:58   We said goodbye and Maisie and I went up the hill.

01:23:03   I realized I had that whole conversation with her with my AirPods in because I do my walks

01:23:09   listening to podcasts from my Apple Watch with transparency on and my AirPods in.

01:23:18   This is my point of saying I have gotten over the idea of removing AirPods as a show of

01:23:25   interest.

01:23:26   I don't care.

01:23:28   I can hear her perfectly.

01:23:31   It's fine.

01:23:34   I will alert Lauren.

01:23:36   I'm going to listen to podcasts now.

01:23:38   She's like, "Okay," so that she doesn't just say something to me as an aside.

01:23:43   This actually happened the other day when I was cooking because I realized the thing I

01:23:48   hate about cooking dinner is not cooking dinner.

01:23:51   It's being bored.

01:23:52   So I listen to podcasts now.

01:23:53   Oh, yeah.

01:23:54   Are you kidding?

01:23:55   That's one of my favorite podcast times.

01:23:58   That's how you got to do it.

01:24:01   When she comes home and I'm making dinner, I do a little check-in of like, "I'm doing

01:24:06   this," and she's like, "Okay."

01:24:09   Beyond that, there's a long story-laden answer to Adam's question, which is my personal etiquette

01:24:16   is I don't care if they're in or not.

01:24:21   I'm not going to take them out as a show of interest.

01:24:26   My interaction should be enough.

01:24:28   I don't think it's needed anymore for that reason.

01:24:31   But me and Adina, if we're not doing something together, one of us at least has AirPods in

01:24:37   because you're doing something or listening to something or whatever.

01:24:41   And so we just treat it as like, "I'm just going to talk to you and you're just going

01:24:46   to deal with it."

01:24:47   That's how we live our lives.

01:24:50   I understand what you might do.

01:24:51   I think I'm going to listen to something now, but we don't do that.

01:24:55   If we're doing some kind of separate activity, one of us probably has AirPods in and is either

01:25:00   listening to music or listening to podcasts or watching a video or whatever.

01:25:04   And we just kind of talk to each other and expect that the person who's listening is

01:25:09   going to deal with it, which is one of the reasons why I actually really like the conversation

01:25:14   awareness because sometimes Adina will start talking to me and I'll just say something

01:25:18   and then it's going to pause.

01:25:20   Like I don't even need to pause anymore.

01:25:21   I can't do that because I talked to the dog.

01:25:23   I can't do that.

01:25:24   But yes.

01:25:25   The one place where I've found that I don't like this is you can't sing along to anything

01:25:29   anymore.

01:25:30   I feel like they should do something.

01:25:32   The karaoke awareness needs to happen.

01:25:33   I genuinely think that there is an AI model in there somewhere where you can kind of work

01:25:40   out if I'm singing along to something and don't bring the music down because that's

01:25:47   kind of the whole point.

01:25:48   I prefer to sing along and not hear me.

01:25:51   That's my preference.

01:25:53   If you would like to send in a question of your own to help us close out an episode of

01:25:58   Upgrade but also maybe we can help you with something like how we helped Jonathan with

01:26:03   their Kobo e-book question.

01:26:04   Well, Jason says Kobo or Kindle.

01:26:05   You can go to Upgradefeedback.com and send us in a question of your own.

01:26:16   You can also do this for follow up.

01:26:18   You can do it for Snell Talk or just general feedback about the show.

01:26:21   If you want to find Jason's work online, go to Sixcolors.com and you can hear his podcast

01:26:25   here on Relay FM and at TheIncomparable.com.

01:26:28   You'll hear me on Relay FM too and you can check out my work at Cortexbrand.com.

01:26:32   If you want to find us on social media, Jason is @jsnell or J S N E double L. I am @imike.

01:26:39   You can watch video clips of this show on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube where we are

01:26:43   @upgraderelay.

01:26:44   Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus.

01:26:47   They get longer ad free versions of the show at GetUpgradePlus.com.

01:26:51   Thank you to Delete Me, Wild Grain and Sane Box for their support of this week's episode.

01:26:56   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:26:58   Until next time, say goodbye just to Snell.

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