497: Put 'em on a Fish


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to episode 497 of Connected.

00:00:12   This episode is brought to you by Jam, Ecamm and ExpressVPN.

00:00:16   My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Federico Battucci.

00:00:20   Hello Mike, how are you?

00:00:22   I'm Federico, I'm good, I'm good, how are you?

00:00:24   I am fantastic, thank you.

00:00:26   We're also joined by Steven Hackett, hello Steven.

00:00:29   Hello.

00:00:30   Hi.

00:00:32   Hello.

00:00:33   Hello.

00:00:34   What sort of energy are you bringing to the show today, Steven?

00:00:38   I'm pretty good, I gotta say Mike's intro, pretty low energy and he tried ramping it up at the end.

00:00:44   From, you want one of those?

00:00:46   Oh wow.

00:00:48   Is that what you're looking for?

00:00:49   Maybe.

00:00:50   Yeah.

00:00:50   You could just, Jim could just put that at the start.

00:00:54   Just that and then it just goes into a low key.

00:00:57   Like that.

00:00:58   Follow up, we have some.

00:01:02   Couple weeks ago I talked about, or we talked about, checking the federate our threads accounts box.

00:01:09   I think we had all done it.

00:01:10   And I had mentioned that I couldn't find my threads account.

00:01:13   Misremembering, only available for you in America.

00:01:17   Oh, I'm sorry.

00:01:18   Not available for us.

00:01:19   I'm sorry.

00:01:19   We'll do it, all agreed we'll do it, but cannot do it.

00:01:23   I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be America-centric.

00:01:28   America-centric American.

00:01:32   I didn't mean to do it.

00:01:33   I turned it on.

00:01:34   An American centrist, I think is what you're saying.

00:01:38   A Macintosh centrist, that's a different thing.

00:01:40   There you go, okay.

00:01:41   You guys know about the Macintosh centrist?

00:01:44   What are you talking about?

00:01:45   I have a note, like, I don't know.

00:01:47   There'll be a link in the show notes.

00:01:48   No, okay.

00:01:52   I had trouble finding my threads account on my eWorld.social server, even though it was showing up on

00:01:59   Macedon.social on my test account there.

00:02:02   It did eventually show up and I followed it and posts from threads seem kind of hit or miss.

00:02:10   I don't feel like all of them make it over to Macedon and there's always a delay, but like it's early.

00:02:16   It is starting to work and that is that is exciting.

00:02:20   I still don't have any real feelings of what account I keep because I don't want to manage two accounts that

00:02:30   basically do the same thing.

00:02:31   That's still all very much up in the air, but the wheels are slowly turning towards the federated future

00:02:37   and that's good.

00:02:38   Wow.

00:02:39   I had a thing a couple of days ago where I was going to make fun of you on Macedon for cross posting

00:02:45   and paused for a second and realized, ah, I'm following your threads account.

00:02:50   I was so close to needing to be owned, but luckily that did not happen.

00:02:57   Yeah.

00:02:58   Zach says the delay is intentional to allow you to delete before it federates.

00:03:04   That's good.

00:03:06   That makes a lot of sense.

00:03:08   That is good.

00:03:09   You know, as janky as some of this stuff is, there is a good bit of this that is pretty well thought out.

00:03:17   Like I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but things like that, like as soon as you're like, oh, yeah,

00:03:23   why wouldn't you do it that way?

00:03:25   Hmm.

00:03:27   We mentioned last week that I was trying to install, like to get access to the EU stuff.

00:03:33   And I forgot to mention that I got the old store installation to work by simply swapping, as we thought,

00:03:41   my American App Store account with my Italian App Store account.

00:03:46   So yeah, just doing that in settings, it worked.

00:03:51   I guess we'll see once like actual stores, they open up on the web,

00:03:57   what happens if I install them using my Italian App Store account,

00:04:01   then sign out from that and sign back in with my American one, like what will happen in that case?

00:04:07   Well, what happened?

00:04:09   Did you swap back?

00:04:10   So yeah, I did.

00:04:12   I did.

00:04:12   It kept working, but also like that's a beta version of old store that I manually installed using a .ipa file.

00:04:20   So I'm sure like that's not part of like the actual system that regular people will see.

00:04:27   But also like for example, if you have apps on your phone that you downloaded using two separate App Store accounts,

00:04:35   like for example, I have apps that I download with my American account,

00:04:39   but I have a few Italian specific apps like, you know, the app for my security system, for example,

00:04:46   that I needed to get from the Italian App Store.

00:04:48   Now normally I am logged in with my American account, but today that app had an update.

00:04:54   And it used to be back in the day that you had to manually sign out from settings,

00:04:58   sign back in with the other account and update the apps from the App Store.

00:05:03   Now I can stay signed in with my American account,

00:05:07   but during the update process, the App Store prompts me for a password and it says,

00:05:12   "This app was downloaded with this different Apple ID.

00:05:16   Put in the password for that Apple ID if you want to continue updating the app."

00:05:20   And I'm kind of curious to see if the EU,

00:05:25   like if the third party marketplace distribution will work the same way.

00:05:29   - Absolutely not. It won't. - I don't think it will.

00:05:32   Because they are going to do, as we've seen from even the things that I've said,

00:05:36   they do not want you to use it at all, right?

00:05:40   Like they just don't want anyone to use this.

00:05:42   They're going to make no concessions, right?

00:05:44   Like the fact that apps, like you lose access to them

00:05:49   if you're outside of the EU for 30 days,

00:05:51   like if they're going to do that,

00:05:55   then there's no way they're going to make any part of it easy.

00:05:57   Yeah, you're right.

00:05:58   Yeah, so that's the update. That's the follow up from last week.

00:06:03   I wouldn't be surprised if you know how like on the show last time you were saying that like,

00:06:08   "Oh, you know, you're going to lose your downloads from your Apple Music if you switch."

00:06:13   I bet that happens.

00:06:14   Like I bet if you use your European ID and you switch over to your American one,

00:06:20   those apps will be removed.

00:06:22   Yeah, or just they will be, the icons will be dimmed

00:06:27   and it'll say you're not eligible to use this app or something.

00:06:30   Yeah, because they just don't want to use them.

00:06:32   Do you have any impressions of Alt Store? Like haven't used it?

00:06:35   I mean, I really liked the UI,

00:06:39   but because it was a beta version, a bunch of things were not hooked up.

00:06:42   Like for example, the Patreon linking system was not working for me,

00:06:46   so I couldn't install a clip because I couldn't link my pledge on Patreon

00:06:52   with the beta version of Alt Store that I had.

00:06:54   So I'll try again once Alt Store actually opens up and I will report back.

00:06:59   Very cool.

00:07:01   But I mean, the UI was very similar to the existing version of Alt Store.

00:07:05   Oh, of course. Yeah, the jailbreak version, right?

00:07:08   Yeah, yeah.

00:07:09   So there's more data mining in 17.5, 9 to 5 Mac published.

00:07:15   "Based on our analysis, there are identifiers of the next generation iPad Pro,

00:07:20   which would be with OLED,

00:07:23   and also there are identifiers for an 11 and 12.9 inch regular iPad."

00:07:30   Yeah, what am I saying? iPad Air, that's what I'm looking for.

00:07:34   There you go.

00:07:35   I got there in the end.

00:07:37   You did.

00:07:37   I got to truncate and did a terrible job.

00:07:39   Basically, they found reference to all of the iPads we're expecting.

00:07:43   The Pros have OLEDs in them.

00:07:45   It's in 17.5, which is kind of what we were expecting

00:07:50   based on what Mark Gurman has said,

00:07:51   where again, Mark is continuing to refine his prediction

00:07:56   to say that he is now expecting these iPads to be announced

00:07:59   during the week of May 6th.

00:08:01   So that is a month from now.

00:08:04   Yeah, so I've done some math.

00:08:07   This week, I went back and looked at the historical patterns for iPad releases.

00:08:12   So if Gurman is correct, during the week of May 6th.

00:08:15   So based on what Apple did in the past,

00:08:18   I think we're looking at iPad announcement on Tuesday, May 7th,

00:08:23   with hopefully release on Friday, May 17th,

00:08:27   which means if we extrapolate,

00:08:29   we could expect an iOS and iPadOS 17.5 on Monday, the 13th,

00:08:35   and press and bar goes, I'm guessing, on Wednesday, the 15th.

00:08:40   And once again, this is just personal speculation

00:08:42   based on previous patterns and sort of timing of previous iPad releases.

00:08:48   I think the only thing that I would potentially have you consider

00:08:53   is that they're like, "Order today, available Friday."

00:08:56   No, maybe.

00:08:58   And in that case, if the timeline is accelerated,

00:09:01   we may see, so I guess version B would be iOS 17.5 on Monday, the 6th,

00:09:10   iPads on Tuesday, release on Friday, the 10th,

00:09:14   and press and bar goes on Wednesday or Thursday, if that's the case.

00:09:19   But last time they released iPads,

00:09:22   they did with the, you know, "Order today, available next week."

00:09:26   So that's what I was predicting.

00:09:30   Automatic, the makers and stewards of WordPress?

00:09:37   Is that an accurate way to describe that?

00:09:39   That's pretty fair, I think, actually.

00:09:41   Yeah.

00:09:42   Because it's two things that are the same thing, but also not.

00:09:45   Right.

00:09:46   Automatic also owns Tumblr and Day One and a bunch of other stuff.

00:09:51   And Pocketcast?

00:09:52   Pocketcast.

00:09:53   They have acquired Beeper for $125 million.

00:09:58   Beeper were the Beeper Mini people,

00:10:00   so Beeper had been making text messaging products.

00:10:03   They also were the company that hired the high school student, I think?

00:10:10   Yes.

00:10:10   Yeah.

00:10:11   Who had reverse engineered iMessage to create Beeper Mini,

00:10:16   the iMessage app, which is available on Android.

00:10:19   Automatic has acquired this company.

00:10:22   They have acquired Beeper's team, including the 27 employees,

00:10:27   the applications that they make which integrate services like Signal, Facebook, Messenger, Slack,

00:10:33   and also the 100,000 customers that's all kind of coming along.

00:10:38   So they're basically like...

00:10:39   Automatic appears to just be like, "We'll buy the company."

00:10:41   Company says it is.

00:10:43   I was reminded from John's link about this on Mac stories

00:10:48   that Automatic had previously bought an app called Texts,

00:10:52   which was a similar idea of like,

00:10:55   "What if one app bought all your messages?"

00:10:58   Which I think is actually a pretty good idea

00:11:01   and is potentially Automatic hedging against an interoperable future of messaging services,

00:11:10   which also feels possible, more possible now than ever before

00:11:16   because it seems like it's something that a lot of world governments want to happen.

00:11:21   The good or ill.

00:11:23   So I don't really know what to think about this other than Automatic sure buys a lot of companies

00:11:28   and I think $125 million for Beeper sounds like a really good deal for Beeper.

00:11:31   It does sound like a good deal for Beeper.

00:11:34   And Matt Mullenweg, the founder, had this blog post about it,

00:11:40   basically saying they have no interest in dealing with iMessage on Android.

00:11:45   I think that chapter is fully closed.

00:11:48   I've not tried any of these apps that combine messages from multiple services?

00:11:55   I tried them. I didn't like them.

00:11:57   Because it is convenient, but you're still losing the dedicated features and UI of each of those apps.

00:12:06   It felt kind of awkward to use something that's like,

00:12:09   "Hey, this is WhatsApp," or "This is Discord," but it actually wasn't.

00:12:13   I don't know. It makes me feel kind of uncomfortable.

00:12:16   My general feeling about these apps was the exact same feeling that I had about Beeper, like Beeper Mini.

00:12:22   It's like, I don't believe that any of these things will work until the long term.

00:12:25   Because all of the companies of which you are building, they don't want you to do this.

00:12:32   Like even if there are APIs, right, that you're just using, none of these companies want you to exist.

00:12:38   They want like Slack and Facebook, they want you in the Slack and Facebook apps.

00:12:44   So they're never going to make your life easy.

00:12:46   They're always going to be changing a thing and then you have to try and respond to that thing that they changed

00:12:51   because now the app's broken.

00:12:52   As useful as these kinds of things could be, I am never confident that they will last into the long term.

00:13:02   So I just never want to get...

00:13:03   I always try in software to not put myself in a situation where I'm going to be upset that something is killed.

00:13:12   I try my very best to avoid those kinds of situations and so I will rarely pick up something where I think,

00:13:21   "I'm not sure that this is going to last into the long term."

00:13:23   And these kinds of things are one of them.

00:13:25   I wish them well because I think it's a great idea and maybe after five years of something like this existing,

00:13:33   like being all-powerful and everyone loves it, then sure, maybe.

00:13:36   But I'm always concerned about these kinds of software products.

00:13:42   This episode of Connected is brought to you by Jam.

00:13:45   If you're a web developer and you work on a team, you know that sometimes your teammates send you bug reports with very little context.

00:13:52   Like maybe just a text description with no screenshot, no console logs, and no user ID.

00:13:59   And instead of fixing it, you have to then go to the person who made the ticket to hunt down the right information.

00:14:05   Or go back and forth over the course of weeks sometimes in the ticket,

00:14:09   commenting, trying to figure out if it was the local storage API, the response from a network request,

00:14:15   cookies at the time, the time zone you're in.

00:14:17   It can go on and on and it ends up being really frustrating when you're trying to figure out what went wrong.

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00:14:46   all the information you need to debug, like even when it's something as simple as their internet speed.

00:14:51   It even automatically lists out the steps you need to reproduce to encounter the bug.

00:14:57   It's so easy to get your teammates to use because it's just a Chrome extension.

00:15:02   They see a bug, they click a button, and right away it creates a ticket in your issue tracker.

00:15:08   So it saves time for them and it saves you a lot of hopping on calls and meetings to debug.

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00:15:17   than responding to comments in your issue tracker, send your team jam.dev.

00:15:24   That's jam.dev, J-A-M dot D-E-V, or click the link in the show notes.

00:15:31   Thanks to J-A-M for their support of the show and Relay FM.

00:15:35   All right guys, it is time for our weekly Teach Italian segment.

00:15:39   I have a few things planned for you today, but before we get to those, we have some feedback from Roberto,

00:15:44   which is the way you pronounce that name in Italian.

00:15:47   "I've been loving Teach Italian, but an unfortunate side effect is I had to turn off conversation awareness of my AirPods

00:15:53   since they believe that I'm having an Italian conversation with Federico."

00:15:57   I'm assuming that Roberto is speaking answers back.

00:16:02   I'm not sure exactly what's going on here.

00:16:05   Yeah, that's got to be the thing that's happening.

00:16:08   It had not occurred to me that other people might be playing along at home.

00:16:12   Right, so they're literally trying to repeat what you guys are trying to learn with varying degrees of success.

00:16:21   Wow.

00:16:22   Yeah, I mean, Steven, you know.

00:16:25   So today we're doing...

00:16:28   Unnecessary, truly unnecessary.

00:16:30   Love you, Steven. So today we're doing a few things.

00:16:33   First, we're going to do the numbers, finally.

00:16:35   We're going to count from 1 to 10.

00:16:37   It's going to be pretty simple.

00:16:38   Most of these numbers are very similar to Spanish.

00:16:43   So Steven, if you know some Spanish, maybe you will find some of these easier.

00:16:48   I'm going to start. So 1 is "uno."

00:16:51   Uno.

00:16:52   Uno.

00:16:53   Oh, wait, can't we just do it in a light way?

00:16:55   Yeah, yeah.

00:16:56   Can't we do it? Every week we do them along with you.

00:16:59   Why are you changing the formula now?

00:17:00   Sorry, I'm sorry. So 1 is "uno."

00:17:03   Uno.

00:17:04   Uno.

00:17:05   Perfect. 2 is "dué."

00:17:08   Dué. Dué.

00:17:10   Yep. Yep. 3 is "tre."

00:17:13   Tre.

00:17:14   Mike, you're getting better at that R sound.

00:17:17   It's the Romanian man.

00:17:19   I don't know how, but it's helping, I think.

00:17:22   So 4 is "quatro."

00:17:25   Quatro.

00:17:27   Yeah, Steven, I know why you say "quatro," but it's "quatro."

00:17:33   It's not "tro," like you said.

00:17:36   I don't know how to explain that sound.

00:17:39   But yeah, that sounded a bit American, but it's OK.

00:17:45   You're good.

00:17:46   5, I guess this is maybe the trickiest one.

00:17:50   5 is "cinque."

00:17:52   Oh, that's not what I was thinking.

00:17:54   Because I looked at that the way you've written out, and I was thinking in Spanish,

00:17:58   like where it would be "cinque," or "cinco."

00:18:01   But like "cinque."

00:18:03   Yes.

00:18:04   Cinque.

00:18:06   Yep, that's very good.

00:18:08   6 is "se."

00:18:10   Se.

00:18:11   If you recall, "se" was also the meaning of "you are" from last week.

00:18:22   It's the same word written the same way, but in this context, it's the number 6.

00:18:28   7 is "sette."

00:18:32   Yep.

00:18:33   8 is "otto."

00:18:35   "Otto."

00:18:37   Like the automator's robot.

00:18:39   Yeah, exactly.

00:18:41   9 is "nove."

00:18:43   Nove.

00:18:44   Say it again?

00:18:45   That's very good.

00:18:46   Nove.

00:18:47   Nove.

00:18:48   Nave.

00:18:49   Yes.

00:18:51   Like "Avatar?"

00:18:52   That's "nave."

00:18:53   Nave.

00:18:54   Oh, I guess, I guess maybe the number 10 is also tricky.

00:19:02   So 10 is "dieci."

00:19:05   That wasn't what I expected.

00:19:07   Me neither.

00:19:08   I was thinking it was going to be "dieci," like "chi."

00:19:12   Okay, so the way that I said it is my Roman accent.

00:19:21   In proper Italian pronunciation, and I'm going to try here my best, is "dieci."

00:19:28   Yeah, see now we've got, see, this is dialect stuff, right?

00:19:31   Yeah, because I'm using what we learned a minute ago.

00:19:35   But in my dialect, I would say "dieci."

00:19:38   You know, it's like, yeah, that's a slightly different sounding.

00:19:42   "Dieci."

00:19:43   Now just say "dieci," and that's the proper way, and you'll be fine.

00:19:50   So these are the numbers from 1 to 10.

00:19:53   Now I want you to put together two very basic sentences.

00:19:58   We learned, you know, "I am, you are, he is" last week, and we learned the numbers today.

00:20:05   So how would you say "we are, too"?

00:20:11   Well, I think you gave it away a minute ago.

00:20:14   So I think, I assume, if I'm remembering what you just said, it would be like "say."

00:20:22   No, "we are."

00:20:25   "We are."

00:20:27   So would that be "voy"?

00:20:31   Nope.

00:20:32   The other one?

00:20:33   "Noi," exactly.

00:20:35   And then "a," "hmm."

00:20:38   That was the tricky one. It was "siamo."

00:20:41   "Siamo." So it would be "noi siamo du."

00:20:44   "Duwe."

00:20:46   So for example, you go to the restaurant, and they ask you, like, how many of you want a table for?

00:20:52   And you would say, "noi siamo duwe."

00:20:54   "Noi siamo duwe."

00:20:56   Yup. Whereas, if you need to say something like, "you are six in total."

00:21:05   [laughter]

00:21:10   Two?

00:21:12   Alright.

00:21:13   Right?

00:21:14   So, "you are," so that's plural, and we learned last week that it was "voy." Alright?

00:21:20   Oh, okay. Yeah, "voy."

00:21:22   "Voisé..."

00:21:25   "Siete."

00:21:26   "Siete."

00:21:27   "Siete."

00:21:29   [laughter]

00:21:30   Yes, yes.

00:21:31   Wait, what?

00:21:32   Yeah, "voy siete," "you are."

00:21:34   "Sì."

00:21:35   Wait, but why would it be "siete" for six?

00:21:38   "Siete" is "you are."

00:21:40   Yes, yes.

00:21:41   Oh, geez.

00:21:42   Yes.

00:21:43   Yup. That's why I picked this one, because it's tricky.

00:21:45   "Voisé siete sì."

00:21:47   Yes, yes, yes.

00:21:49   And in total, it's very similar. It's "in total."

00:21:52   It's, like, very similar in English.

00:21:54   Okay.

00:21:55   Alright.

00:21:57   So, how would that be, Mike?

00:21:59   "Voi..."

00:22:01   Yes.

00:22:02   "Siete."

00:22:04   "Siete."

00:22:05   "Siete sì."

00:22:07   "Sì."

00:22:08   Yes.

00:22:09   "In total."

00:22:10   Yes. That's good.

00:22:11   Okay.

00:22:12   Yeah, yeah.

00:22:13   Alright, that's hard. That's hard.

00:22:14   Yeah. I know. I know. You'll get there.

00:22:16   I also have a little, little, like, very small bonus thing for today.

00:22:22   Okay.

00:22:23   That I thought about.

00:22:25   I wanted to teach you the proper pronunciation of the Apple executives on the leadership page that have Italian-sounding last names.

00:22:37   So, in English, we will be looking at Craig Federighi, Luca Maestri, and John, I'm guessing most Americans would say Gianandrea?

00:22:47   Gianandrea.

00:22:48   Gianandrea.

00:22:49   So, the way you pronounce his last names in Italian is "Federighi."

00:22:56   Okay.

00:22:57   Federighi.

00:22:58   Federighi.

00:22:59   Federighi.

00:23:00   Federighi.

00:23:01   Federighi.

00:23:02   Federighi.

00:23:03   Federighi. Yeah, that's good.

00:23:04   So, I'm gonna save the tricky one for last.

00:23:07   Maestri.

00:23:08   So, you know, it's very similar to the English one, just with the order sounding "r."

00:23:14   Maestri.

00:23:15   Maestri.

00:23:16   Maestri.

00:23:17   Maestri.

00:23:18   Maestri.

00:23:19   That's so good, Mike.

00:23:20   You're making so great progress.

00:23:22   I'm good at just emulating you.

00:23:24   Like, if I hear you say it, I can just emulate it.

00:23:27   That's what I'm doing.

00:23:28   All right, so, John's last name is the really tricky one.

00:23:33   Gianandrea.

00:23:35   Gianandrea.

00:23:37   Yes.

00:23:38   Gianandrea.

00:23:39   We would say like Gianandrea.

00:23:41   We're like, all kinds of syllables in there.

00:23:43   It's not Gianandrea.

00:23:44   It's not Gianandrea.

00:23:45   It's Gianandrea.

00:23:47   Gianandrea.

00:23:48   Gianandrea.

00:23:49   Yeah.

00:23:50   Yeah.

00:23:51   Very good.

00:23:52   We're done.

00:23:53   It was a tricky lesson this week.

00:23:55   Yeah, it was tough.

00:23:56   Yeah, thank you.

00:23:57   Thank you.

00:23:58   You're making good progress.

00:23:59   And even you, Steve, like, you're also making progress.

00:24:01   I think we are sort of, something is unlocking in your brain, I think.

00:24:08   You used to really struggle with some of this, and you're picking them up faster compared

00:24:13   to a few episodes ago.

00:24:14   So, good job.

00:24:15   Good.

00:24:16   I'm glad you're pleased with our progress.

00:24:19   Yes.

00:24:20   So, Steven, you were out of the office on Monday?

00:24:24   Yes.

00:24:25   Because you were going, like many Americans, to see the eclipse?

00:24:30   That's right.

00:24:31   The freedom moon, as we call it.

00:24:33   Sure.

00:24:34   We don't call it that.

00:24:36   Would it, is the moon free?

00:24:38   Or is the sun free, if needing to do all the work?

00:24:43   Or is earth free from the sun?

00:24:46   Finally.

00:24:47   That, it's going to be a short-lived victory.

00:24:51   But yes, that's, yeah, so this is the second total solar eclipse that's been in my neck

00:25:00   of the woods.

00:25:01   Solar eclipse has happened all the time, right?

00:25:04   Like, all over the world.

00:25:05   There'll be another one in my neck of the woods in 20, I think it's 2044, 2045, also

00:25:11   comes across the southern part of the United States.

00:25:13   You'll be like 70 by then.

00:25:16   Not 70.

00:25:18   I mean, nearly.

00:25:19   I think I'll be like 59.

00:25:21   Hang on.

00:25:22   Also to me in Federico.

00:25:23   I put it on the calendar, let me see if I can find it now.

00:25:26   Yeah, I don't want to think about, I don't want to think about that stuff.

00:25:29   It makes me feel strange inside.

00:25:33   I don't want to get old.

00:25:35   It's happening to all of us right now.

00:25:38   No.

00:25:39   I think there's one of these that passes over Spain first.

00:25:44   Yes, next year I think.

00:25:45   You can go if you want.

00:25:47   We can meet in Spain.

00:25:48   I'll be 59 in 2045.

00:25:53   Yeah.

00:25:54   So also it falls on the anniversary of Green Gate being fixed in Iowa 13.6.1.

00:26:00   What?

00:26:01   That's not.

00:26:02   It's on the same day.

00:26:03   It'll be 25 years since Green Gate was fixed.

00:26:06   I actually feel bad for you that that's on your calendar.

00:26:08   It's a repeating annual thing, you know?

00:26:10   Yeah, I feel bad for you.

00:26:11   If in 20 years you remember about Green Gate, I am going to give you $1,000.

00:26:20   Well, it's on his calendar.

00:26:21   Yeah, it's a repeating.

00:26:22   That's the easiest $1,000 I've ever heard.

00:26:24   Make a note that I got to give you $1,000 in 20 years.

00:26:27   On that day.

00:26:28   Put it in the...

00:26:29   That would go up at least $5 by then.

00:26:35   Yeah.

00:26:36   I mean, think of it.

00:26:38   Is it $1,000 in 2024 dollars?

00:26:41   Because inflation will work in my favor over 25 years.

00:26:45   It could be real money.

00:26:47   No.

00:26:48   Why would anybody agree to that?

00:26:50   I don't know how the system works.

00:26:52   Why would anybody agree to an inflation-adjusted bet?

00:26:54   Why would you do that?

00:26:56   So moving on from financial-related jokes.

00:27:00   The eclipse was incredible.

00:27:03   We traveled to Northeast Arkansas to a little town called Paragould, Arkansas.

00:27:08   It's normally about an hour and a half from Memphis, so we went up the...

00:27:12   Kind of the evening before, hung out in...

00:27:15   It's like a small town.

00:27:16   Like the high school marching band was doing a concert down Main Street for the eclipse event.

00:27:21   So saw that.

00:27:23   Had some pizza.

00:27:24   Well, the family had pizza.

00:27:25   I sat there looking sad at pizza.

00:27:28   And the next day went to a small city park to view the eclipse.

00:27:33   And it was incredible.

00:27:35   The one in 2017 was amazing.

00:27:38   This definitely lived up to my memory of it.

00:27:41   It is really something else.

00:27:44   Memphis had 98% coverage.

00:27:47   The extra 2% really matters.

00:27:49   Going to totality is a totally different thing.

00:27:52   I like that.

00:27:53   That's not enough for me.

00:27:55   100 or nothing.

00:27:56   100 or nothing.

00:27:57   I'm going to stay inside.

00:27:59   You know?

00:28:00   I'm going to stay in my Vision Pro and not watch totality.

00:28:03   If it's 98, can you look at it?

00:28:06   No.

00:28:07   So you have to wear the glasses.

00:28:09   Said who? You know what I mean?

00:28:11   Well, I mean, I saw a thing on Threads today of like Google searches for my eyes hurt have been off the charts.

00:28:16   So a lot of people maybe screwed that up.

00:28:19   You have to wear the glasses.

00:28:21   YOLO.

00:28:22   Yeah.

00:28:23   You only...

00:28:24   Typical Joe Biden.

00:28:25   You know what I mean?

00:28:27   He won't even let me look at the sun when I want to.

00:28:29   I mean, Trump looked directly at it and he's...

00:28:31   Exactly.

00:28:32   And he's fine.

00:28:34   If there's one guy we can all agree is totally fine, it's Donald Trump.

00:28:39   Joe! Joe, don't look at the sun!

00:28:42   Yeah, it's big lens.

00:28:45   They want you to buy those lenses, you know.

00:28:49   This is a Jeff Bezos thing.

00:28:50   You know, everyone's buying their lenses.

00:28:52   Actually, this is not going to help y'all's conspiracy theory.

00:28:56   But there's a company in Memphis that makes most of them.

00:28:59   So...

00:29:00   Oh, here we go.

00:29:02   Now it's big Memphis money.

00:29:04   It's big Memphis.

00:29:05   This is what happens when your uncle's the mayor, you know, you just like, you know?

00:29:10   Yeah.

00:29:11   I want you to think that with all these websites, you know, they're all part of the same group.

00:29:18   All these "journalists".

00:29:21   Yeah.

00:29:22   Wow.

00:29:23   Okay, you're taking the turn.

00:29:24   What do you think a style guide's for?

00:29:25   You know what I mean?

00:29:26   It's so everyone says the same stuff.

00:29:28   That's the problem with mainstream media.

00:29:30   I don't get the news from the internet.

00:29:32   I got my news from Telegram, you fools.

00:29:36   Wake up, wake up, sheeple.

00:29:38   You sheeple.

00:29:39   Come on.

00:29:41   The moon's for looking, you know?

00:29:44   It's weird, you wouldn't think that something like an eclipse would be possible since the

00:29:53   earth is flat, but it is.

00:29:56   I know, right?

00:29:57   I genuinely had someone in my life, not a family member, but someone who's in my life,

00:30:03   say to me a couple of days ago, "You know, they have some points."

00:30:09   I was like, "No, come on, please don't."

00:30:12   I'm so jealous, I really want to have in my circle of acquaintances at least, like a flat-earther.

00:30:20   No, you don't want it.

00:30:21   Because I feel like I would go out for drinks with that person and get so hammered and have

00:30:27   a good laugh listening to those theories.

00:30:31   He's a guy, he's like, he's, I would say, conspiracy susceptible, right?

00:30:38   Oh, nice.

00:30:39   And some of the stuff that we talk about, I entertain his conversations and I just kind

00:30:43   of want to see what he's thinking about and we talk and da da da da da.

00:30:46   And some of the stuff that he talks about, I'm like, "All right, I can see..."

00:30:50   Do you remember a number of months ago there was that train crash somewhere in America,

00:30:57   Steven?

00:30:58   Oh, yes, yeah.

00:31:00   Right?

00:31:01   In Palestine, Ohio or something?

00:31:03   Yes, and he was the first person to alert me to this having happened.

00:31:09   I don't know how that was the case, but he was.

00:31:12   And then later that weekend I saw John Oliver think about it and he was saying something

00:31:18   along the lines of, "They don't want people to talk about it and da da da da da."

00:31:24   And like, "What is it?"

00:31:25   And you hear those kinds of things and you're like, "As far as conspiracies go, I can

00:31:30   understand somebody feeling that way about stuff like that where it would be preferred

00:31:36   for these kinds of things to be covered up because of the fact that the railway companies

00:31:43   have done such a terrible job of maintaining that infrastructure.

00:31:46   So you can understand at least the railway companies wanting to cover something like

00:31:50   that up."

00:31:51   Right?

00:31:52   So like those kinds of things, you're like, "All right, okay, I can see why such a

00:31:56   thing is enticing enough to you that you could imagine there being a conspiracy because there

00:32:03   are definitely people in the world who want that to be a conspiracy for their own ends.

00:32:07   Like they want things to be conspired against."

00:32:10   But the flat earth thing, I was like, "No."

00:32:12   I was saying to him, "Look, here's the thing I want you to think about with this one."

00:32:16   I said to him, "The thing about the flat earth stuff is that..."

00:32:22   Because he's like, "Do you have some points?

00:32:25   You don't know about..."

00:32:26   I was like, "These people will say anything to try and make you believe them."

00:32:31   Right?

00:32:32   Because he's like, "All right, so why has nobody ever taken a picture of this big ice

00:32:37   wall that runs around the edge of the earth?"

00:32:40   Right?

00:32:41   Incredible.

00:32:42   And he's like, "Well, no one's ever gotten a good picture of the earth from space."

00:32:46   And I'm like, "No."

00:32:49   Dude.

00:32:50   All right, look, you just got to roll me on this one.

00:32:53   I'm so jealous that you know one such person.

00:32:56   No, you're not jealous.

00:32:57   No, I am.

00:32:58   I absolutely am.

00:32:59   You don't want this.

00:33:00   Oh, no, I do.

00:33:01   I do.

00:33:02   I want to have a good...

00:33:03   You think you do, but then when it's someone you care about, it's like, "I'm losing you

00:33:06   now."

00:33:07   Is it Casey?

00:33:08   No.

00:33:09   I say, "You don't know this person.

00:33:10   You don't know this person.

00:33:12   You've never met this person.

00:33:13   You probably never will meet this person.

00:33:15   Not for this reason."

00:33:16   Oh, please introduce me to this person.

00:33:17   I'm waiting.

00:33:18   I invited them to the live show.

00:33:19   Please, please, I'm begging you.

00:33:21   Please, introduce me to this person.

00:33:23   No, because he's a nice guy and he spends too much time on Reddit.

00:33:29   Everyone has this person in their life and whatever.

00:33:34   And so it's just like, I hear him.

00:33:36   It's like, "Look, I understand why you feel this way because these people are really good

00:33:40   at arguing their points."

00:33:41   And that every point that you make, they have a counterpoint where if you're susceptible,

00:33:46   then they're just going to keep making their point back at you because this is all they

00:33:51   have, right?

00:33:52   The flat earth people is just to be able to argue the point against you and they won't

00:33:56   accept if logic is taken off the table, anything's possible, right?

00:34:03   And that's the thing about these conspiracy people.

00:34:06   They don't, you're trying to argue them with logic, but they don't want logic.

00:34:10   And so they're powerful.

00:34:11   They want Adobe Audition.

00:34:13   Indeed.

00:34:14   I don't remember how we got to this.

00:34:16   Does he think that 9/11 was an inside job?

00:34:19   We've not had that conversation, but...

00:34:21   Interesting.

00:34:22   Now you know what to bring up next time you see him.

00:34:24   Ask him if he thinks that steel beams don't melt.

00:34:27   Okay, moving on.

00:34:29   The eclipse was incredible.

00:34:32   It gets darker and darker and then it clicks into place and the street lights come on.

00:34:39   But the freakiest thing is how cool it gets outside so quickly.

00:34:43   Like you wouldn't think like three minutes of basically it being nighttime would make

00:34:49   the temperature drop the way that it does, but it gets, it gets chilly.

00:34:53   Like the temperature drops when it's in totality, you can take off your glasses and see around

00:35:00   the edges of it.

00:35:01   You can see pictures online, like little, I think they're called prominences, but it's

00:35:07   like, it's basically like a big arcs of fire coming off the sun that expand beyond the

00:35:13   edge of the moon.

00:35:14   You could see those in some of those pictures.

00:35:15   There's also an interesting story here where there's this picture that's floated around.

00:35:18   You've probably seen it on social media where like the, it's like the shadows are brought

00:35:23   way up so you can like see the moon's features and the sun behind it.

00:35:27   And people like the James Webb telescope took this.

00:35:30   The James Webb telescope did not take that.

00:35:32   The telescope is not where you take that picture.

00:35:34   That picture is probably a, that picture is generated somehow either AI or someone doing

00:35:39   multiple exposures.

00:35:40   Like it's not, not what it says it is, but a really enjoyable, really a special moment

00:35:47   with the family.

00:35:48   And then the hour and a half trip took six and a half or seven hours to come home.

00:35:54   And my tech angle here is using Apple maps initially.

00:35:59   And it just like, it kept like getting me off the interstate to go down like a side road

00:36:04   for like a mile then back on the interstate.

00:36:06   Like it just couldn't figure out what it wanted because traffic was so bad.

00:36:09   Cause in this part of the country, there's only a couple of places to like cross the

00:36:14   Mississippi river.

00:36:15   And so a lot of people flew into Memphis and then drove into Arkansas the next state over

00:36:20   where totality was.

00:36:21   And so traffic was just unbelievably bad.

00:36:25   And I switched to Google maps at some point.

00:36:27   Cause like, Hey, Apple maps is freaking out and try Google maps.

00:36:30   Google maps eventually took me and thousands of other people.

00:36:34   Cause I was in bumper to bumper driving for hours down a gravel road in Arkansas at some

00:36:39   point, like avoid part of the highway that was an adventure, but we made it home and

00:36:44   it was, it was a lot of fun.

00:36:46   If you, if you get a chance to see one of these things, it is well worth it.

00:36:50   Take the time from work.

00:36:51   And if you have to travel and it can make, make it work for you, it is, it is really

00:36:55   cool.

00:36:56   Did the kids, did the kids enjoy this stuff?

00:36:59   They do.

00:37:00   Do they, they find it cool too?

00:37:02   They do find it cool.

00:37:03   Uh, the older two remember the last one in 2017, but our youngest was only three years

00:37:08   old then.

00:37:09   So he remembers the trip.

00:37:11   It doesn't really remember, you know, kind of what we were doing.

00:37:14   Um, so he was really into it and, um, and you know, they were all like, you know, kind

00:37:20   of freaking out at how it gets dark and cool.

00:37:23   You know, you see the sky kind of in this way that you don't see it every day.

00:37:27   Um, there's an old episode of liftoff.

00:37:29   I think it's liftoff 50, 54.

00:37:32   It is 54, uh, where Jason and I both traveled for it last time and then recorded audio during

00:37:42   the eclipse and then talked about it the next day.

00:37:45   Um, that's a really good episode that you should go check out.

00:37:49   Um, I have a tech angle as somebody who did not experience the eclipse of how the iPhone

00:37:56   ruins the eclipse or like people, what people say about the eclipse because people post

00:38:00   pictures or they send pictures to me and look how dark it is, but it looks like daylight

00:38:05   because the iPhone, right?

00:38:07   It's the night mode.

00:38:08   Right.

00:38:09   It's like, look how dark it was.

00:38:10   It just looks like, like the early afternoon.

00:38:12   Like, I don't know what you're supposed to be showing me.

00:38:15   Uh, but the night mode photo is not, is not helping you in this scenario because it was,

00:38:19   I think you sent a picture of the kids.

00:38:20   It's just like, it just looked like daytime.

00:38:22   It doesn't look like anything.

00:38:24   Yeah.

00:38:25   What's weird about that picture.

00:38:26   It's a night mode picture taken at like two o'clock in the afternoon, you know?

00:38:30   Yeah.

00:38:31   But, uh, it is, it is cool.

00:38:33   I mean, uh, you know, people like even I did it, you know, I took a photo with my phone

00:38:38   through the eclipse glasses.

00:38:40   It's one of those things where like I, I did a couple of those, but like I wanted to kind

00:38:45   of experience it.

00:38:46   I was like, I can go download a wallpaper later from NASA.

00:38:48   So I don't have, and I don't really have the gear to shoot something like that.

00:38:52   You have to be pretty careful not to blow up your stuff.

00:38:56   Oh really?

00:38:57   Yeah, cause you're shooting into the sun.

00:38:59   Like you gotta, you gotta, yeah, but I could take pictures of the sun all the time on my

00:39:02   iPhone.

00:39:03   Does a great job.

00:39:04   You know?

00:39:05   Do you want to know, do you want to know where the word eclipse comes from?

00:39:08   Please.

00:39:09   So it's from, no, from Greek, ancient Greek, uh, Greek.

00:39:14   Uh, it, I believe, uh, so it was from the verb, pardon me if I get the accent front,

00:39:21   ekleipo.

00:39:22   Um, and the word was ekleipsis.

00:39:25   Uh, ekleipo, the verb means to abandon and the meaning was the basically missing sort

00:39:33   of the, like the sun abandoning the sky.

00:39:36   Um, that's why it's called an eclipse.

00:39:39   Can you imagine the first people that saw this happen?

00:39:42   Yeah.

00:39:43   With all that the sun left us.

00:39:45   But like now you can see how it gets there, right?

00:39:47   Cause they're like, ah!

00:39:50   The sun, come back.

00:39:53   Where's it gone?

00:39:54   And then it comes back.

00:39:55   It's like, whew.

00:39:56   That was worrying for a second there.

00:40:01   Yeah.

00:40:02   Very cool.

00:40:03   Very cool.

00:40:04   I heard this Reddit link with us the other day about it's like these two guys fishing

00:40:08   and they have eclipse glasses on a fish.

00:40:11   That is totally my kind of energy and vibe.

00:40:13   Like those two guys, the guy who put the, the, the sunglasses on a fish and sort of

00:40:19   like he's holding up, please find.

00:40:21   Yes.

00:40:22   So he's just holding up a fish to make him enjoy the eclipse.

00:40:26   Just having a good time.

00:40:28   One of the top comments, blinding Nemo.

00:40:30   But you know what's so great about this is that guy loved that fish so much he sacrificed

00:40:38   his own eyes.

00:40:39   Yeah.

00:40:40   Yeah.

00:40:41   He did.

00:40:42   The guy who was holding the fish took his glasses off and put them on the fish.

00:40:44   Yeah.

00:40:45   Yeah.

00:40:46   Blinding Nemo.

00:40:48   Blinding Nemo.

00:40:50   Sees the eclipse while suffocating.

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00:42:35   All right, let's talk about other unworldly things.

00:42:40   Emulation in the app store.

00:42:42   To everybody that says that regulation cannot bring about competition and innovation,

00:42:47   this is an example of how you're wrong.

00:42:50   Somebody, some people say that?

00:42:52   But yeah, I think people say that, right?

00:42:54   I feel like this is one of the things that people say these days.

00:42:57   Like there are lots of takes, like a lot of the time.

00:43:00   There are too many of them, realistically.

00:43:02   Right, there are too many takes.

00:43:04   Regulation would stop any form of innovation.

00:43:06   Like if you have governments telling companies what to do, there's da da da da da.

00:43:11   Well, this is a scenario where I think Apple seems so concerned about the possibility of

00:43:18   people wanting to install Altstore in the EU,

00:43:22   that they have changed the guidelines of the app store to allow for emulator apps to exist worldwide.

00:43:29   Specifically, retro game console emulator apps.

00:43:34   We'll get to that in a minute.

00:43:36   And also another part of it, you are responsible for all such software offered in your app,

00:43:40   including ensuring that such software complies with these guidelines and all applicable laws.

00:43:45   That second part to me is purely so Apple can wipe their hands of any situation in court.

00:43:50   They don't care.

00:43:52   Really for me is the retro game console part.

00:43:55   That is why I'm intrigued about it.

00:43:57   What is deemed as retro?

00:43:59   And that's going to be very interesting to see how and when these first apps start getting submitted to the app store.

00:44:07   So I think a pretty good rule of thumb would be, for example, in the case of Yuzu,

00:44:13   is this emulator for a console that is right now on sale,

00:44:18   is it an object that you can go to a Best Buy or something and purchase?

00:44:23   And Yuzu was emulating the current Nintendo system.

00:44:28   And so obviously that was not even a great territory.

00:44:32   It was a risk and it was very risky.

00:44:35   And the Yuzu folks knew that it was risky.

00:44:38   But is a Game Boy Advance a retro game console emulator? Yes.

00:44:43   Is a Sega Game Gear a retro game? Yes.

00:44:46   Well, here's what I'll ask you, though.

00:44:48   What about the fact that you can buy these games on the Switch?

00:44:51   That's where it gets complicated.

00:44:54   And it's not just Nintendo.

00:44:56   Even companies like, I mean, Microsoft, they have an entire division dedicated to making sure that you can purchase those old Xbox One games

00:45:04   and play them in 4K on your current Xbox.

00:45:07   PlayStation 360 games.

00:45:09   Yeah. PlayStation, they let you download PS4 games and play them on PS5.

00:45:14   So it gets kind... It is tricky to answer, but realistically, you know,

00:45:20   I think it's one of those things where you'll know it when you see it.

00:45:25   Like an arcade machine emulator, that's probably going to be fine.

00:45:30   A Game Boy emulator, that's going to be fine.

00:45:33   A DS emulator, probably fine.

00:45:35   A 3DS emulator, probably not.

00:45:37   Like, I think there's going to be a recency bias applied here.

00:45:42   Like, is this console kind of recent so that it may be tricky to accept it in the App Store?

00:45:48   I think that's sort of the kind of thing that we will see.

00:45:51   But also, as we spoke about a few episodes ago, the law surrounding emulators, it's complicated, right?

00:45:59   We discussed all the legal precedents that exist in terms of fair use when it comes to emulators.

00:46:06   Emulators that try and replicate the BIOS of a console versus emulators that don't include the BIOS at all.

00:46:15   And they ask you to provide your own BIOS file.

00:46:18   Like, for example, there's a bunch of PS1 emulators or Nintendo DS emulators

00:46:23   that ask you to bring your own firmware and bring your own BIOS file.

00:46:28   If you want to use the emulator.

00:46:30   So I think we will witness amazing things, I hope, because of this change.

00:46:38   And my hot take for today is that the European Union, long term, it will go down in history

00:46:46   as one of the best things that ever happened to Apple and the App Store.

00:46:49   But most American bloggers right now, they're too short-sighted to see it.

00:46:54   And so this is just one example of regulation actually helping competition

00:47:01   and helping Apple realize that maybe some things are OK for the App Store.

00:47:05   So that's my take.

00:47:07   Here's something I can't wait for it to happen.

00:47:11   And I really hope that this happens and we hear about it.

00:47:13   The first emulator that gets rejected for the app doesn't do anything.

00:47:18   Because it doesn't have games.

00:47:22   Because it doesn't have games.

00:47:23   But you have to be responsible for the games inside of the app.

00:47:28   But what if you don't make a Gameboy game?

00:47:32   I'm very excited for when that inevitably happens.

00:47:36   Because that's a rule, right?

00:47:37   Like it's a thing.

00:47:38   Your app has to be functional.

00:47:39   Well, an emulator cannot be functional until the games are in it.

00:47:43   But then Apple is going to be like,

00:47:45   "Well, you have to be responsible for the games inside of the app."

00:47:49   Checkmate.

00:47:51   So obviously I don't think Apple is stupid, right?

00:47:59   And I think what they will do here is they will take a look at what's going to be successful

00:48:05   via third-party marketplaces in the European Union.

00:48:08   Because they will see the numbers.

00:48:11   They will see the interest from people.

00:48:13   And I think it would be silly not to think,

00:48:17   "Well, if X millions of people are signing up for an alternative marketplace,

00:48:22   and they're downloading, they're seeking these sort of experiences,

00:48:25   why don't we just change the App Store in such a way where the developers are actually incentivized

00:48:32   to bring those experiences to the App Store?

00:48:34   And so in return, we're still going to make money."

00:48:37   And so they will probably use all this EU stuff as a way to gauge interest

00:48:44   for certain types of experiences that are not allowed on the App Store right now.

00:48:47   And emulators are just the first shoe to drop, so to speak.

00:48:51   I think we're going to see more and more of these kinds of things.

00:48:54   I think of all of the types of apps that they could have offered,

00:48:58   this is maybe the most ridiculous in the sense of Apple's history

00:49:03   and the things that they have done and not done.

00:49:05   Because you've got that one thing I just mentioned, right?

00:49:07   The apps have to be functional.

00:49:09   Well, they can't be functional just inherently based upon what they are.

00:49:11   Don't forget, this was a company until three or four months ago,

00:49:15   wouldn't allow for a game streaming app to exist

00:49:20   because Apple wanted to approve all of the possible games that could run.

00:49:24   And now they're like, "Uh, emulators? Uh, yeah, I mean, go!"

00:49:29   "Sure!"

00:49:30   "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course."

00:49:32   And also just like, it feels to me, realistically, for Apple's perspective,

00:49:40   just an unnecessary set of legal trouble to get themselves into.

00:49:43   Like, Nintendo will 100%, without a shadow of a doubt,

00:49:50   as soon as the first Nintendo emulator is on the App Store,

00:49:56   send Season of the Sister Apple. They will do that.

00:50:00   And then what happens?

00:50:02   Have they sent Season of the Sister Google?

00:50:05   Have they sent them to Google on the Play Store?

00:50:08   Much love to Google, right?

00:50:11   Apples are different. It's just different.

00:50:13   Hmm. We'll see.

00:50:16   Apples are just different. Like, they are.

00:50:18   And because it will, here's the thing, right?

00:50:22   Like, emulators exist for Android and have existed for a long time.

00:50:25   It's going to be a big friggin' deal when there is a Nintendo 3DS,

00:50:30   or Nintendo DS emulator for the iPhone.

00:50:32   Dolphin emulator for the GameCube and Wii on an iPhone from the App Store.

00:50:36   I am living for that moment.

00:50:39   Yes, but this is the thing. When that happens, it's going to be a big deal.

00:50:43   Right? Yeah.

00:50:44   Nintendo, who is a partner of Apple's.

00:50:47   Mm-hmm.

00:50:48   Yeah, I am very intrigued for what is going to happen,

00:50:52   for when or if this inevitably happens.

00:50:54   Because it's all just so strange to me that, like,

00:50:57   this is the first thing where they're like, "Oh, okay. Emulators, alright."

00:51:02   And I don't get it how some people cannot love this chaos right now.

00:51:07   Like, it's amazing, like, what we are witnessing, I think.

00:51:12   Like, I don't know how some people don't like this.

00:51:15   It's incredible. Like, this remaking of the App Store under our very eyes.

00:51:20   It's fantastic. I love it.

00:51:22   Well, I mean, it would be easier to love if all of these changes were worldwide,

00:51:26   which they're not.

00:51:27   Yeah.

00:51:28   Like, this is an easier thing to enjoy if all this stuff could be done.

00:51:33   And it was also just done in a way where a lot of people could actually take advantage of it.

00:51:38   Like, most Europeans aren't even going to be able to take advantage of the stuff

00:51:40   because most developers won't opt in for this stuff

00:51:42   because Apple's still not, still not, or still resisting as much as they can

00:51:48   to make this a thing that developers won't opt into.

00:51:51   Like, there are scenarios where this could be loved more if it was done better.

00:51:57   Hmm.

00:51:58   We have some more Apple and AI news.

00:52:02   We saw some anonymous feedback on the Realm model, which we spoke about last time,

00:52:07   to understand the context of what a user is doing based on what is on screen.

00:52:11   Anonymous writes, "We do know the size of the models used by Apple in their Realm paper.

00:52:17   They used a previously released LLM at different numbers of parameters,

00:52:21   80 million, 250 million, 1 billion, and 3 billion,

00:52:25   and then fine-tuned the model with their desire to use case."

00:52:29   And those are listed in table 3.

00:52:33   I think I just missed them when I wrote that paper.

00:52:35   For context, GPT 3.5 from OpenAI uses 175 billion parameters,

00:52:42   while GPT 4 is rumored to use 1.76 trillion.

00:52:47   That's a bit more.

00:52:49   That's a bit more.

00:52:50   A bit more.

00:52:51   Yeah.

00:52:53   A bit more.

00:52:54   I mean, they're parameters, am I right?

00:52:55   Yeah.

00:52:56   How do they work?

00:52:57   Yeah, I don't know.

00:52:59   The more you have, the better.

00:53:00   So, yeah, cool.

00:53:03   And then we learned more this week about Ferret UI.

00:53:06   This is related to the Ferret model, which we spoke about on a previous episode.

00:53:11   This looks at screens of user interface and to execute open-ended instructions.

00:53:20   So this kind of stands on the shoulders of the other stuff we've spoken about.

00:53:24   And Finn Voorhees was talking about this on Macedon.

00:53:28   And Federica, you had a very funny quote post.

00:53:31   "One way or another, it always goes back to GUI scripting in the end."

00:53:36   Yeah.

00:53:37   I mean, it's interesting that we took this long trip around all kinds of automations,

00:53:47   and then we're going to circle back to the idea of, well, what if the computer could

00:53:51   control the interface?

00:53:53   What if a system could control the interface of your computer?

00:53:56   And so it used to be that back in the day, you put together these kind of janky Apple

00:54:00   scripts to simulate clicking around the screen and have this visual automation going on.

00:54:07   And tons of people still do that using tools like Kibra Maestro or Automator or AppleScript.

00:54:14   And this idea of every UI element of macOS tends to be individually addressable by a

00:54:23   script.

00:54:24   And so you can do things like open settings and click on this icon and then click on this

00:54:27   tab and then open a checkbox and then scroll down.

00:54:30   And here, to see these examples of Ferret UI using machine learning and AI to train

00:54:38   a model to use an interface, and in this case, the shortcuts app, I think it's very fascinating

00:54:44   that we're ending up where sort of where it all started.

00:54:49   I think it's interesting.

00:54:51   And I don't want this to sound like I'm making fun of this idea because I think it's

00:54:58   such an incredible technology.

00:55:00   And visual automation, UI automation, is something that I have used myself a lot of times when

00:55:05   there was no native.

00:55:07   For example, AppleScript dictionary or shortcuts integration for something that I wanted to

00:55:12   do on macOS.

00:55:13   And I also think it comes with some seriously powerful accessibility potential, like the

00:55:21   idea that you can empower folks with motor impairments or vision impairments to actually

00:55:30   do something or tell the computer to do something that can only be done with interaction, to

00:55:37   do it programmatically by using AI to work with an app on their behalf.

00:55:43   I think it's such an incredible idea.

00:55:45   And I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing the beginning of this implementation as part

00:55:51   of an accessibility feature in the next version of iOS, because I think it totally makes sense

00:55:55   to offer it as, you know, like Siri can now interact with apps for you or something like

00:56:01   that.

00:56:02   What's so clever about this type of automation is that anyone potentially can do it because

00:56:10   it is a fallback, right?

00:56:12   Like when we say UI scripting, what we mean is a keyboard, my show can do this.

00:56:16   You can take a screenshot and give it to keyboard, my show.

00:56:18   Like when you see this on the screen, click it.

00:56:22   Right.

00:56:23   Or when a dialogue comes up with this text on it, click the OK button for me.

00:56:27   And it opens the door to automation that otherwise there's not ways into.

00:56:32   But also it's much friendlier to end users than something like Apple script or even shortcuts,

00:56:38   right?

00:56:39   If you can just tell it, hey, I want you to do this, this and this, and I go and click

00:56:42   on the mouse and tell it what I want it to do, and then it can do it for me again in

00:56:46   the future.

00:56:47   Like it's very interesting.

00:56:48   I'm really interested to see where this goes in the future.

00:56:53   Reuters is reporting that Apple has made a deal with Shutterstock to license their images

00:56:59   for training data.

00:57:01   The value of the deal was likely somewhere between $25 to $50 million range, according

00:57:07   to a report, and was said to have been signed in the months following the release of Chat

00:57:12   GPT in late 2022.

00:57:14   They're also looking to license images from PhotoBucket as well, which is a, it's like

00:57:22   one of those things that's a name I've not heard for a long time.

00:57:25   Yeah.

00:57:26   Uh, I have a memory that I've spent a lot of time today trying to find evidence of and

00:57:32   cannot, that Apple did a deal like this before, or at least made reference to doing a deal

00:57:39   like this before when they were training their machine learning model to detect faces and

00:57:43   photos and stuff.

00:57:45   That they worked with a company like a Shutterstock, but like they licensed imagery to train that

00:57:53   model.

00:57:54   Because like people ask like, how did you do it?

00:57:57   And that was the way that they did it.

00:57:59   Couldn't find anything.

00:58:00   These, these, these words and phrases are way too hard to Google now, like machine learning,

00:58:06   model training, photos, like it's too hard.

00:58:09   In 2017, they acquired a computer vision startup that was particularly working on searching

00:58:18   for things within images.

00:58:19   And that came out in iOS 11 around that time.

00:58:23   And so maybe that's what you're thinking of, but I'm not sure.

00:58:26   It was specific, the thing, my memory anyway, is specifically around how they created their

00:58:32   like, person to tell, like, this is this person like, or this is this thing anyway, doesn't

00:58:37   matter.

00:58:38   So send us feedback.

00:58:40   Look, Apple's got to do this, right?

00:58:43   If you don't pay for content to train your models, you just go off scraping it on the

00:58:47   internet, then everyone sues you.

00:58:49   Check in on how open AI is doing, right?

00:58:52   That is something they're, they're dealing with now.

00:58:55   Apple doesn't want that liability.

00:58:57   So of course, they're going to go to these companies, but these companies have a complicated

00:59:00   relationship with AI tools.

00:59:02   I just looked at Shutterstock support stuff in preparation for this.

00:59:07   There's kind of three big points with Shutterstock.

00:59:09   One, they have their own generative AI tools through a partnership with open AI.

00:59:14   So you can use Dolly and other tools and within the Shutterstock system.

00:59:19   However, they don't allow you to submit AI generated images to their library of stock

00:59:27   photography.

00:59:28   And they license their stock images out to companies for AI training, like this Apple

00:59:34   deal and potentially others.

00:59:37   And these companies, like they're all really dealing with this, really trying to sort all

00:59:42   of this out.

00:59:43   I mean, this comes not too long after Reddit sold rights to all of its user content to

00:59:49   Google for arguably not nearly enough money.

00:59:54   I don't know how users of Shutterstock feel about that, but it is something that is going

01:00:00   to continue to be in the conversation, right?

01:00:03   Like if stuff's just out on the Internet and you make it available and you don't tell and

01:00:08   your, you know, your robots dot txt, you don't tell open AI and others not to crawl it, then

01:00:14   you're effectively letting them crawl it by omission.

01:00:17   And that's free, even though other people may be paying for it.

01:00:22   It's all very complicated and messy.

01:00:24   And while it's not in.

01:00:29   On one hand, it's not that different than Google or being crawling the web for search

01:00:34   results, right?

01:00:35   This is.

01:00:36   I don't agree with that.

01:00:38   Well, it's the same, but it's also different, right?

01:00:40   Like it's in the same.

01:00:41   By and large, the agreement, like the implicit agreement with Google is like, you will then

01:00:46   send the person to me.

01:00:48   Right?

01:00:49   Yes.

01:00:50   And they get in trouble when they don't.

01:00:52   Yeah.

01:00:53   And now it's like, we're just not going to bother sending anyone to anywhere.

01:00:56   Potentially.

01:00:57   Yeah, that was a big debate with, with copilot and being in Sydney or whatever it was called

01:01:02   that day where, you know, they would have the sort of basically the bibliography at

01:01:07   the end of the thing that I put together.

01:01:09   This is where I got this information.

01:01:10   Now, no one's clicking those.

01:01:13   If you've gotten the answer, why would you click a link?

01:01:17   Well, that's the exact thing that Google search results is in hot water for, right?

01:01:21   They pull out information into those boxes and no one ever goes to the Yelp website ever

01:01:25   again.

01:01:26   Like, yeah, they are related issues.

01:01:28   But they don't do that for everything, right?

01:01:29   They do that for certain like category types.

01:01:32   Yeah.

01:01:33   Like with the AI stuff, like they're doing it for everything.

01:01:36   They're just giving you the entire answer.

01:01:38   Like, I don't, yeah, anyway.

01:01:40   So yeah, so Apple continues to inch in this direction of, of big stuff.

01:01:47   I'm sure coming at WOBC, I kind of expect this to be a sort of a regular segment on

01:01:52   the show for a while of as we learn more about what Apple is up to here.

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01:03:35   One more Apple adjacent AI story.

01:03:42   According to the information Johnny Ive and Sam Altman, the once and again boss at Open

01:03:48   AI, have officially joined forces on creating an AI hardware product.

01:03:54   This was first reported back in the fall, but now it seems like this is now moving forward

01:03:59   with a new company.

01:04:01   So they're doing it.

01:04:02   They're doing something.

01:04:04   Well, last time it was like, hey, they're meeting about this thing.

01:04:10   Maybe they're going to do something and SoftBank are interested and maybe they're going to

01:04:14   pour a bunch of money into it, but they don't know what it's going to be yet.

01:04:17   And they're just like playing around with it.

01:04:18   And then Sam Altman, as you referenced, got fired and hired, which may have slowed things

01:04:23   down a bit.

01:04:24   Although this, it's not entirely, this isn't an Open AI product though, which is like this

01:04:31   funny thing about Sam Altman.

01:04:33   The way that I have read the, like some reporting is like Sam Altman's involved and Open AI

01:04:39   may or is involved, but it's not like the Open AI thing.

01:04:43   It's in the same way that like Sam Altman's invested in the AI pin, the humane pin.

01:04:48   Like he's just putting money everywhere.

01:04:52   Same as like there's this chip company that he's trying to start.

01:04:55   That may have been at the heart of his ouster at Open AI.

01:04:58   Yeah, because it wasn't Open AI, right?

01:05:01   Like this is his kind of thing.

01:05:03   He's just like trying a bunch of stuff and then maybe he'll then have this second company,

01:05:08   his first company can buy product.

01:05:10   Yeah.

01:05:13   So, Ive has been tasked with securing a billion dollars in funding.

01:05:19   I don't really know why Johnny Ive has been given this job.

01:05:24   My expectation is it's like it's some joint venture between the two and Sam Altman's going

01:05:28   to raise money and Johnny Ive's going to raise money.

01:05:30   And also I imagine there is a different type of person that would give Johnny Ive money

01:05:36   to Sam Altman and vice versa.

01:05:39   So like they can kind of like split and conquer that way because Johnny Ive is apparently

01:05:47   one of the people he's in conversations with is Loram Powell Jobs whose VC firm Emerson

01:05:53   Collective would be potentially putting this money in to a Johnny Ive humane pin.

01:06:02   Yeah, it probably is not dissimilar to that.

01:06:05   All of the reporting on these things is the same as the humane thing, it's the same

01:06:09   as the Rabbit R1 which I had a thought about this the other day.

01:06:12   The Rabbit R1 is that red thing that looks like a play date.

01:06:15   Do you think Panic knew about this?

01:06:18   Like I know it was Teenage Engineering that did the design.

01:06:21   But like I know I'm not trying to start any drama.

01:06:26   It's just a question.

01:06:27   I just want that is to myself which is just like I wonder if this is one of those things

01:06:31   where like Teenage Engineering designed this thing for Panic to make the play date and

01:06:35   then like I wonder if like who owns the design or like who thinks they own the design.

01:06:41   I mean it's very similar.

01:06:42   It doesn't have a crank but it has a scroll wheel.

01:06:45   It's a red play date.

01:06:46   Like it's a red play date.

01:06:48   Like it looks exactly the same and I just wonder if this one has things that are like

01:06:51   they're like ah that looks familiar.

01:06:54   Anyway I don't know.

01:06:57   But all of these things are like this is not a smartphone right.

01:07:01   This is not a smartphone.

01:07:04   Is, could any of these things succeed?

01:07:08   I know that's such a hard question to answer.

01:07:10   I'm going to say something.

01:07:13   I think of all these products I think something like the humane AI pin has more chances to

01:07:19   succeed than the Rabbit R1 because the Rabbit I mean you're still holding a screen right.

01:07:24   Yeah.

01:07:25   You're holding a screen.

01:07:27   Like it's you're basically replacing holding a phone like holding a rectangle with holding

01:07:31   a square.

01:07:32   Whereas I think if we go down this like if we play along with this argument that something

01:07:37   is going to replace the phone it's going to be something that is always on.

01:07:40   And so I think I'm much more intrigued by something that you strap to your clothes or

01:07:44   something that is always on and accessible and your hands are free.

01:07:48   That is why I'm fascinated by the AI pin and why I'm fascinated by something like the Ray-Ban

01:07:52   glasses.

01:07:53   You know those are not AI but the idea is the same like you have something that is always

01:07:56   on your hands are free and you can still capture information around you and you know take photos

01:08:01   and videos whatever.

01:08:03   My main issue right now with these devices is the latency and this and this like who's

01:08:07   going to do who's going to be at the supermarket holding a square thing like a playdate thing

01:08:14   in their hands for like 20 seconds staring at a box of cereal and be like hey can you

01:08:19   give me the calories of this thing.

01:08:21   You're going to sit there like an idiot capturing a picture of a box where you could just grab

01:08:26   the box and look at the calories yourself.

01:08:28   Who's going to do that?

01:08:30   I genuinely have no idea.

01:08:32   That's actually one of the things which is in service to the humane right where you're

01:08:38   just like you kind of do that you just carry on and it's doing its thing and you're not

01:08:42   like staring at it while waiting for it to do its thing.

01:08:45   But there's still latency with the pin right because that processing in the cloud takes

01:08:52   a lot of time to go up and then to process and then to come down but at the very least

01:08:57   it's not like a model interaction in the sense that you're waiting with the thing in your

01:09:02   hands for a response to come back right so at least it's got that going for it.

01:09:07   Yeah so I don't know.

01:09:09   Question for you Buff, did either of you watch the second humane video?

01:09:17   Yes I did.

01:09:18   The one where it's called what is AI pin?

01:09:22   Yeah.

01:09:23   So much better video, way better video.

01:09:26   Yeah much better.

01:09:27   I think this video if this was the first video wouldn't have been written so bad.

01:09:33   Honestly.

01:09:34   You can make your own decision about whether you think it's good or bad or not but like

01:09:38   it was just a better video.

01:09:40   Yeah look if I could buy one in Italy I would buy one you know of all these products like

01:09:48   I if I could and I cannot because it's US only I would get one.

01:09:54   I would have stopped you.

01:09:56   No literally I cannot use the data.

01:10:00   Yeah.

01:10:01   It would not work but like I am super intrigued by these ideas so many times like I've been

01:10:08   in situations where like I would have taken a picture of something if it wasn't so cumbersome

01:10:13   to like get my phone from my jeans and then you know you know it there's a friction with

01:10:19   grabbing a phone especially especially if you do what I do where in social situations

01:10:24   I try to keep my phone away and so like it's in my pocket or something or like it's in

01:10:30   the inner pocket of my jacket for example like I try not to use my phone if I'm around

01:10:34   people but to have like something that either it's glasses or something that is strapped

01:10:41   to my t-shirt like something that was always there.

01:10:44   What about the meta Ray-Bans if you consider those?

01:10:47   Look I am actually thinking about them for this summer if I could get them with a prescription

01:10:52   or something.

01:10:53   You can get prescription lenses for them.

01:10:55   I know I know and I think I'm gonna do it for the summer yeah.

01:10:59   But I could see why they're having a moment it's like yeah that's a pair of Ray-Bans.

01:11:03   They just look like a pair of Ray-Bans like it's this is an easier thing to do.

01:11:07   Yes put them on a fish you know let's go.

01:11:10   Put them on a fish.

01:11:11   Then I get the fish to ask a question.

01:11:14   That's right.

01:11:15   Why I'm outside of the water?

01:11:16   What's an eclipse?

01:11:17   But this is also why like I think we discussed this like a few weeks ago like that crazy

01:11:22   rumor of Apple putting cameras in AirPods like yeah like that's exactly the kind of

01:11:28   thing that I would like like I'm always going out wearing AirPods and imagine if that

01:11:32   little thing could take a picture of what's around me or in front of me.

01:11:35   Yes totally like that idea of let me capture an experience or a moment quickly with no

01:11:42   interaction with the screen I'm on board yeah.

01:11:46   But I think that the I agree with the humane pin is interesting like I would like to try

01:11:51   one I don't want to buy one but like I look at it and I'm like I can understand the

01:11:57   difference between how this could be cool if it worked well.

01:12:01   I'm still not sure it works well like I feel like I need to see other people having

01:12:11   used it right which I guess will come at some point in the not too distant future because

01:12:18   they you know they made a video where it seemed like they didn't pay a lot of attention

01:12:22   to it and the thing made a bunch of mistakes and then they made a second video where it

01:12:26   looked more impressive but now you know they must have paid more attention and so like

01:12:31   I feel like you know this is kind of like a for me once kind of thing where I actually

01:12:35   now want to see somebody who not from humane make a video about how it works or doesn't

01:12:41   right where if they would have if the original video would have been the first video then

01:12:46   I would still remain I'm like oh this seems pretty cool wherever then like I'm not

01:12:50   sure this works at all or works very well or works reliably but the ideas that they

01:12:58   have are interesting ones but I think where it starts to fall apart is this like it does

01:13:03   a bunch of smartphone things it's like yeah but like I know why you're doing that

01:13:08   but like I don't want to have another phone number for texting people like I don't

01:13:12   I don't want that like there is all these like this weird stuff and so I just kind of

01:13:17   wonder like it's a question I've been asking myself when thinking about this stuff

01:13:21   and like we're looking at this report something has to replace the smartphone eventually

01:13:26   but how how much of what a phone does is it going to need because smartphones replaced

01:13:34   regular phones right and so there was a there was a set of things that it needed to do I

01:13:42   don't know if I know what that set of things is it's not the same set of things I think

01:13:48   yeah and I don't know what that set is realistically today and I think that's going to be whoever

01:13:55   can come up with what that exact set of things is plus all the new things that it can do

01:14:00   that a smartphone can't do or it does way better than a smartphone like that's where

01:14:04   the winner is but I don't know I don't know what that set realistically is or what

01:14:09   people are willing to trade off if they ever experience is so good.

01:14:12   No I think in the you know if you consider the like the the long timeline of the future

01:14:19   of the human race right like what's going to replace a smartphone I think if you go

01:14:23   down at a very basic level like you need to consider the primary impulses that motivate

01:14:30   us as people like why do we use smartphones because the phones they help us deal with

01:14:38   our primary impulses as a race you know like essentially like money food and sex like those

01:14:46   are the primary drivers usually for people with the general goal of this blurry concept

01:14:52   of happiness like so the way that society will evolve to accommodate those primary impulses

01:14:59   for that goal of happiness that's how computers will evolve right and so that and that sounds

01:15:03   incredibly hand wavy and philosophical and I know that but like the smartphone was successful

01:15:10   because it gave us a better way to deal with those things that drive us on a daily basis

01:15:17   right it's a better way to get in touch with people to order food to get work done make

01:15:22   money therefore and chat with friends and partners the next thing that is going to replace

01:15:29   the phone it's got to be better at or preferable at doing those things than whatever we're

01:15:35   using now that's that's the way I look at it like fundamentally we got to understand

01:15:39   how society will change to understand what's going to replace the phone that's how I look

01:15:44   at it and I think realistically the phone is going to be with us for a long time still

01:15:49   just like cars are still with us and we're only trying to modernize cars now with EVs

01:15:56   but they're still cars right it's one of those really truly once in a lifetime kind of inventions

01:16:02   that in order to be replaced something far far far better needs to come along and I'm

01:16:07   not sure that you know holding a rabbit R1 in your hands is that thing but if you're

01:16:13   Sam Altman there's no one better in the world today to partner with right than Johnny Ive

01:16:21   absolutely yeah he's the guy for it yeah I don't know if anybody has this answer but

01:16:27   if there's someone like if you have like a short list of people who might be able to

01:16:34   get you to that answer you have to use history as a predictor of that because it's what

01:16:40   else do you have right like you can't know everyone in the world I mean what you get

01:16:45   you get the guy who was there for the Mac and the iPhone like well not the Mac the iPod

01:16:57   the iPhone the iPod the Apple watch the iPad the Apple watch the iPhone the iPad AirPods

01:17:06   like emac what a resume that man has you know what I'm saying God unbeatable I love Johnny

01:17:13   I have so much and I just if I was Sam Altman I'd be like yeah what does he want like if

01:17:21   I'm gonna give this a go like actually gonna truly give it a go I'll give that guy whatever

01:17:26   he wants he might not be able to do it but I'd put my money on him before anybody else

01:17:31   I think it is interesting I but I tend to be less positive about anything replacing

01:17:38   the smartphone in any sort of reasonable time frame it didn't replace the personal computer

01:17:44   it supplemented it right it's still still here now some people it's their only computer

01:17:50   right but it definitely stands on the shoulders of it I just don't know it's really hard to

01:17:56   beat the smartphone people like their phones it's something Jason says all the time and

01:18:00   talking about these AI products like people like their phones most people I think a lot

01:18:05   of people are like Federica right in certain settings I don't my phone to be with me the

01:18:08   Apple watch can fill that gap for a lot of folks but generally people like their phones

01:18:14   most of the time and it's hard to beat something that's always with you that has a great camera

01:18:20   great screen fast connectivity all of your data like it's a pretty perfect combination

01:18:26   of things but to your point if someone's going to do it maybe it's the guy who helped invented

01:18:32   in the first place yeah but this is where like going back to what we were saying earlier

01:18:36   about the EU this is where like people in our world in the Apple world may have to hope

01:18:41   that the Department of Justice has a case because if people like their phones which

01:18:46   they do and you want something that doesn't get rid of the phone but is in addition to

01:18:50   the phone like the phone was in addition to a computer no one can make this product for

01:18:55   an iPhone which is why humane is doing what it's doing is why rabbit's doing what it's

01:19:00   doing because if you want to work with the iPhone you cannot integrate with the iPhone

01:19:04   because you're not Apple they won't let you and so this is that thing right like the Apple

01:19:11   watch argument which you know make of it what you will like but but it's there are elements

01:19:17   to which is true right we're like Johnny I haven't sound moment cannot make a product

01:19:22   that can integrate with what's on your iPhone should they be able to I don't know but Apple

01:19:27   can if they want to yeah well that does it for this week if you want to find links to

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01:21:01   the show notes and until next time guys say goodbye I'll leave that to you cheerio bye

01:21:07   y'all