510: Jason Is Cool GOTO 10


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 510,

00:00:13   for April 29th, 2024.

00:00:15   Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,

00:00:18   SaneBox, and Vitally.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:22   Hi, Jason.

00:00:23   - Hi, Mike, how are you doing?

00:00:25   - I'm good, I've got a big show today.

00:00:26   There's a lot going on. - Big show.

00:00:27   - Got a lot going on. - Big show.

00:00:29   - There is a lot, there was a lot of movement that happened.

00:00:31   - A lot of news, I've got a little story,

00:00:34   I've got one of those stories.

00:00:35   - We're both a little frazzled.

00:00:37   - Yeah, a little frazzled. - You did some travel,

00:00:38   I did some travel. - Yep, big travel buddies.

00:00:41   - I had a big weekend.

00:00:42   We did not travel together,

00:00:44   but we are big travel buddies in another sense.

00:00:47   But you visited with a Relay FM host

00:00:50   and I visited with Relay FM hosts, how about that?

00:00:52   - Incredible. - But different trips.

00:00:54   - Look at us. - Different places.

00:00:55   Look at us, you can look at us

00:00:58   if you go to our YouTube channel

00:01:00   where this version of the show is posted as a video as well.

00:01:03   - You love to see it. - How about that?

00:01:04   That was a little organic marketing.

00:01:08   - That was really good, that was really good.

00:01:10   I have a snow-tall question for you,

00:01:11   comes from Dylan who wants to know,

00:01:13   do you read footnotes when you read a nonfiction ebook?

00:01:17   - I love this question because of course we know

00:01:19   that we are one of the world's foremost ebook podcasts.

00:01:26   And my answer to Dylan is, okay,

00:01:30   there's a method to reading footnotes

00:01:34   when you're reading a nonfiction book.

00:01:37   And the method is context.

00:01:39   The method is, is the little symbol or number

00:01:43   at the end of this statement that just happened

00:01:45   strongly implying that something is going on

00:01:50   in the footnote that you might wanna read about?

00:01:54   Or is it like obligatory?

00:01:56   And so my answer is, when it seems like the footnote

00:02:01   is going to expand on a thing in a way I'm interested in,

00:02:06   I will tap to bring up the footnote.

00:02:08   I'll also say my habits with footnotes in eBooks

00:02:11   were formed in an earlier age.

00:02:14   There was a time when to read a footnote,

00:02:17   you would tap on the footnote

00:02:18   and it would take you to the end of the book

00:02:20   where the footnote was and you couldn't get back

00:02:24   automatically and even worse in the earliest days

00:02:27   of the Kindle, from then on, it would think

00:02:29   that you had read to the end of the book

00:02:31   'cause it measured your furthest page read.

00:02:36   It was so bad.

00:02:37   - Congratulations, you finished the book.

00:02:39   - You finished the book, yay.

00:02:41   So I stopped most footnotes.

00:02:45   However, software has advanced.

00:02:47   Now when you tap on a footnote,

00:02:49   it brings it up in a floating thing.

00:02:50   You don't even leave the page, you can dismiss it.

00:02:53   It doesn't mess up your anything about your,

00:02:55   where you're reading and all that, it's fine.

00:02:57   However, I will say, I still only really do it

00:02:59   if I think, oh boy, there's gonna be something good here.

00:03:02   Part of the context, by the way,

00:03:03   is that you've had positive interactions with that

00:03:05   in the past.

00:03:06   If I read a book and like a couple of times I tap

00:03:09   and it's just a citation to a scholarly journal or something,

00:03:12   it's like fool me once, shame on me,

00:03:16   fool me twice, shame on you,

00:03:17   I will stop tapping on footnotes.

00:03:18   I'm like, oh, in this book, the footnotes are boring.

00:03:23   But if you got good footnotes, if I'm like, oh, this book,

00:03:26   every time I see it like 22, I'm like, oh,

00:03:30   what wacky side story will be under footnote 22?

00:03:33   Then you got me, I will tap on those.

00:03:35   Unless it seems, sometimes I'll see them

00:03:37   and I'll be like, well, I'm not that interested,

00:03:39   I don't need to tap on the footnote.

00:03:40   But mostly I will be into it.

00:03:42   So it depends on what the book is

00:03:43   and how the footnotes are used.

00:03:46   And that's my answer.

00:03:47   So it's not a yes or no.

00:03:48   It's like, if they're good, yes.

00:03:50   If they're just citing sources

00:03:52   and so that you prove that they're not plagiarists,

00:03:56   whatever, boring, then I won't.

00:03:59   I do have a little side note about footnotes though.

00:04:01   The way footnotes work, and this is a sort of a,

00:04:03   harkening back to those primitive days early on in eBooks

00:04:10   where as I described, tapping a footnote was a whole journey.

00:04:14   The one thing that they don't seem

00:04:17   to have the capability to do is mark the footnotes

00:04:22   and the end material as outside the range

00:04:27   of the length of the book.

00:04:29   And I say this because I was reading a book the other week.

00:04:33   It was a book about, it was called "Fifth Son."

00:04:36   It's about the Aztecs, really good book.

00:04:39   Highly recommended if you care about that kind of stuff.

00:04:42   I'm really going into that middle-aged dad phase

00:04:45   where I'm listening to history podcasts

00:04:46   and reading books about history.

00:04:47   Just leaning in, leaning in, Mike.

00:04:50   Anyway, I read this book about the Aztecs

00:04:52   and there's a library loan.

00:04:54   - What was the name of that book?

00:04:55   I wanna make sure I get the right one for the show.

00:04:56   - "Fifth Son," S-U-N, "Fifth Son," by an American.

00:05:01   - "Fifth Son, a New History of the Aztecs," by-

00:05:07   - By Camilla Townsend. - Camilla Townsend.

00:05:09   - Yeah, so I'm reading it and the library's like,

00:05:13   you're gonna need to give that back to us in two days.

00:05:16   I'm like, oh my God, I'm only 40% through.

00:05:17   I'm never gonna get there.

00:05:19   I'm never gonna get there.

00:05:20   And I'm rushing through it.

00:05:21   And I get to like, I swear, Mike, like 55%.

00:05:24   And it's the end of the book.

00:05:26   And the rest of it, footnotes.

00:05:28   Like, oh, I think I'm at the end.

00:05:32   I got to the last chapter and it was like,

00:05:35   she's like kind of bringing it all together.

00:05:36   And I'm like, strange to be bringing it all together

00:05:38   in the late fifties.

00:05:39   What's going on here?

00:05:40   Tap, boop, done, footnotes.

00:05:43   I'm like, ah, well, I got to turn in the book.

00:05:45   I read the whole book.

00:05:46   It was great.

00:05:47   But like, here's my little feature request

00:05:49   to the kobos and kindles of the world is,

00:05:51   you probably have like a mark.

00:05:53   And when you're gauging length of the book,

00:05:55   don't include the footnotes.

00:05:56   Just don't, don't do it.

00:05:58   I beg you.

00:05:59   Anyway, that's my footnotes rant that I didn't know I had.

00:06:01   - That was a footnote for the footnote conversation.

00:06:04   - That's right.

00:06:05   You can go back.

00:06:06   And by the way, we've talked about eBooks in the past

00:06:09   in previous episodes, including last week.

00:06:11   That's also a footnote right there.

00:06:13   - Footnotes are in the show notes.

00:06:15   Thank you for sending in Dylan, that question.

00:06:18   If you would like to send in a question of your own

00:06:19   to start off the show, go to upgradefeedback.com

00:06:23   and send in your Snell Talk question.

00:06:26   Jason, what season is it?

00:06:27   - Merch season.

00:06:30   - It's merch season.

00:06:31   Go to upgradeyourwardrobe.com

00:06:35   'cause we have brand new merchandise.

00:06:37   Jason Snell, purveyor of merchandise.

00:06:38   Would you like to give the Upgradians an audio tour

00:06:42   of what they will find at upgradeyourwardrobe.com?

00:06:45   - And normally at upgradeyourwardrobe.com,

00:06:47   we've got a few on demand things.

00:06:48   There's a room around up shirt.

00:06:50   I think there's an upgrade logo shirt.

00:06:52   - There usually is an upgrade logo shirt,

00:06:53   but not right now to avoid confusion.

00:06:56   - Right now, because for a limited time,

00:06:59   'cause it's Cotton Bureau and this is how it goes

00:07:01   for the next couple of weeks,

00:07:03   you will be able to get some new, with a footnote, merch.

00:07:09   We're doing the upgrade logo t-shirt

00:07:13   with a little twist this time,

00:07:14   which is that the arrow pointing upward

00:07:16   is gonna be left blank

00:07:18   and it will reflect the color of the shirt you're wearing.

00:07:21   So we're basically creating

00:07:23   a customize your upgrade logo experience.

00:07:27   It comes in two versions.

00:07:30   There is Upgrade Pro.

00:07:34   Those are monochrome colors

00:07:36   because they're very professional

00:07:38   and you should be a professional and use them

00:07:41   and they're not boring at all.

00:07:42   They're just professional.

00:07:43   - Lots of grays.

00:07:45   - Grays, blacks, whites, whatever.

00:07:47   Shades of gray, professional gray.

00:07:51   So that's Upgrade Pro.

00:07:52   And then if you're saying to yourself,

00:07:54   but I am not a professional upgrade t-shirt wearer, Jason,

00:07:57   I am merely a regular t-shirt wearer.

00:08:00   Well, good news, everybody.

00:08:01   You have gotten a visit from the Upgrade Colors R

00:08:04   and we've got non-pro colors.

00:08:07   Yes, colorful colors.

00:08:08   Various new colors so that you can have your upgrade logo

00:08:12   in any of the colors that are on offer

00:08:15   that are the color of a t-shirt.

00:08:16   - Mostly pastel colors, which is a new thing for us,

00:08:19   which I'm very excited about.

00:08:20   Some really lovely options in there.

00:08:22   Some very summery.

00:08:24   - As we're getting into the summer of fun,

00:08:25   it seems appropriate to have some nice summery colors

00:08:28   in there.

00:08:29   Speaking of the summer of fun, Mike,

00:08:31   well, another little segue,

00:08:32   we're all about the segues today.

00:08:34   Summer of fun, 2024 edition.

00:08:37   Now this is not a new shirt.

00:08:39   It is the 2022 beach shirt with the iPhone in the sand.

00:08:43   I love that design.

00:08:45   It came in a couple of different color options last time.

00:08:48   There was sort of like a,

00:08:49   it was like a green and aqua with a yellow print.

00:08:51   This time, the geniuses at the cotton bureau said,

00:08:56   here's an idea.

00:08:57   What if we did a gradient,

00:09:01   they call it split fountain.

00:09:04   A gradient. - I don't know

00:09:05   what it means.

00:09:06   And I also didn't know it was actually possible.

00:09:08   I'm very impressed by this.

00:09:09   - Two different shades are put in,

00:09:12   instead of having it cover the shirt for one shade,

00:09:15   they have two different inks

00:09:16   and then they end up in a gradient.

00:09:19   So they look really interesting.

00:09:22   They're available on dark and light colored shirts.

00:09:25   They look great on both.

00:09:26   So if you wanna relive the summer of fun with this,

00:09:31   I love this artwork.

00:09:33   It's like a surfboard in the sand,

00:09:35   but it's an iPhone and there's a Palm tree

00:09:37   and the upgrade logo is the setting sun

00:09:39   or rising sun depending. - And a pineapple.

00:09:41   - And there's a pineapple.

00:09:42   Why is there a pineapple? - Which I think

00:09:43   fell from the tree.

00:09:44   I don't know, man.

00:09:45   - Because pineapple.

00:09:47   Okay, because pineapple.

00:09:49   So that's available.

00:09:51   And then we've also brought back the classic dongle town,

00:09:55   our most popular dongle town shirt,

00:09:58   the dongle town USB-C.

00:10:01   - It's the portal authority.

00:10:03   - Port authority, exactly right.

00:10:05   In new colors that we haven't had before.

00:10:07   So there's some variety.

00:10:08   We wanted to, so we're bringing back some classics,

00:10:10   but with different colors, different options.

00:10:13   And that's our spring and summer,

00:10:15   at least in the Northern hemisphere vibe of merch.

00:10:19   So those will be available for the next couple of weeks

00:10:21   at upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:10:24   - You did, this is Jason's idea,

00:10:25   the kind of like customize your logo color one.

00:10:29   And I think it's inspired.

00:10:31   I love it so much.

00:10:32   Like some of the color options,

00:10:34   it looks so good to see the little logo peeking through.

00:10:37   I mean, you can go traditional and be red, right?

00:10:39   So it matches the show artwork,

00:10:41   but why not get pink or blue or purple or yellow

00:10:44   or many other colors that are available to you.

00:10:47   - Or light gray or a slightly darker gray

00:10:51   or an even darker, some would say midnight to space black.

00:10:55   - You can also just get gray.

00:10:56   - If you're wearing your shirt professionally,

00:10:58   you can do that.

00:10:59   - So we'd appreciate it if you wanna check these out

00:11:01   at upgradeyourwardrobe.com on sale

00:11:03   for just a couple of weeks.

00:11:05   - Limited time, order now.

00:11:08   I think, I don't wanna make some claims here, Mike.

00:11:10   I don't wanna make some claims here,

00:11:12   but I'm just gonna say there are other t-shirts

00:11:14   being sold on Cotton Bureau.

00:11:16   I think if you ordered them all together,

00:11:18   you would get them all together with one shipping cost,

00:11:21   but you'll have to wait

00:11:22   because of the way they phase their different things.

00:11:24   You'd have to wait for them all to go off sale

00:11:27   before that happens.

00:11:28   So you do you, but it's there as an option.

00:11:32   We have some follow up.

00:11:33   Scott wrote in to say,

00:11:35   "I found it strange that Mike was insistent

00:11:37   "about Delta adding in-app purchases

00:11:39   "or a premium subscription to the app to make more money

00:11:41   "when the developer already said they have a Patreon.

00:11:44   "If the developer says their model is already working,

00:11:46   "why keep suggesting a model that would be worse

00:11:48   "for lower income consumers,

00:11:49   "like keeping features behind a paywall?

00:11:51   "I get that a premium add-on or subscription

00:11:53   "would be optional, but the Patreon is already optional

00:11:56   "and it's working according to the developer."

00:11:58   Quite simple.

00:11:59   I love the app and I want them to make loads of money.

00:12:01   And I don't think it's possible,

00:12:04   actually I know it's impossible for the app store version

00:12:08   for the Patreon to provide any bonus features.

00:12:10   Like you can't do that.

00:12:12   Now the alt store version, they are doing that.

00:12:14   I would just like it because I think it's amazing

00:12:17   and I want the Delta folks like Riley and team

00:12:21   to make more money.

00:12:22   So like to add simple things in like theming and stuff

00:12:25   and put some behind a paywall and have people pay for it.

00:12:28   That's like the app also did not even call out

00:12:31   the Patreon, I think this is something they've added,

00:12:33   but I'm not actually sure this is something Apple

00:12:37   will allow, but I think they put it in anyway

00:12:38   and I think this goes here it goes.

00:12:41   But that's why, 'cause I just, I want the developer

00:12:44   to get as much support as possible.

00:12:45   I signed up for their Patreon for a year

00:12:49   because I'm using the app every single day

00:12:52   but I just want them to be very successful

00:12:53   because they deserve it.

00:12:55   - Yeah, I mean, I would simplify it even further and say,

00:12:58   I think having a Patreon for it is perfect,

00:13:01   but you can't, you basically can't integrate Patreon

00:13:04   in that way in the app store outside of the EU, right?

00:13:06   You have to, and the app store period

00:13:08   and the EU they've got the alt store instead.

00:13:10   So doing with it at the, still at the top of the charts,

00:13:15   it would be nice if they find a way for people

00:13:17   to be able to give the developers money.

00:13:20   I don't think what we're saying they should charge for it.

00:13:22   They should charge $10 for Delta.

00:13:23   No, that's not it.

00:13:24   It's like you've got this huge user base.

00:13:26   Maybe you should add a tip jar or a subscription

00:13:29   where you get a little bit of a bonus content.

00:13:31   Maybe it's some bonus content that's related to things

00:13:33   that are unlocked by the Patreon,

00:13:35   but in the rest of the world, they can't do that.

00:13:37   So they have to make, like I would encourage them to do that.

00:13:41   Look, if Riley is happy to just like let it be free,

00:13:43   that's great, but like it would be nice

00:13:46   if people who liked it could give them more money.

00:13:48   I don't think we were saying,

00:13:49   take things away from people who can't afford it.

00:13:52   That's not what we're saying.

00:13:53   We're saying Riley deserves support for,

00:13:58   and the product's been so successful,

00:14:01   there should be ways to give, clearly give support.

00:14:04   And if the Patreon link works out, that's great,

00:14:06   but there are other ways that App Store apps

00:14:10   turn goodwill into some money for the creators,

00:14:13   and it would be great if they could do that.

00:14:16   - Speaking of emulation,

00:14:19   so you wrote an article on six colors,

00:14:21   a little bit about this, and I just,

00:14:24   there was a couple of things,

00:14:25   we've been talking about this stuff on and off,

00:14:26   and one of the things that I just wanted to read

00:14:30   is a quote from your article, which I really agree with,

00:14:32   where you say, "The right decision is for Apple

00:14:34   "to allow retro emulators of all kinds in the App Store

00:14:36   "and to allow game emulators to use

00:14:39   "just-in-time performance to boost performance.

00:14:41   "Otherwise, its limited expansion of the rules

00:14:44   "feels mostly for show and not indicative

00:14:46   "of a real change in approach to App Store rules."

00:14:48   - Yeah, I mean, the goal here,

00:14:52   I mean, the file name of this article

00:14:54   was Emulate All The Things.

00:14:56   I feel like this is a sign

00:14:58   that there is a lot of potential here.

00:15:02   And when we talk about Apple's rules,

00:15:05   one of the things that we talk about

00:15:07   is that Apple is actually in some ways hurting itself,

00:15:11   because the flip side of the App Store,

00:15:15   which I firmly believe, the App Store

00:15:17   and the richness of the App Store

00:15:18   is what helps make the Apple platforms rich, right?

00:15:22   It's not like the iPhone is great,

00:15:24   and then also there are apps.

00:15:25   It's like the iPhone has the rich app ecosystem.

00:15:28   That's one of the reasons the iPhone is great.

00:15:30   So the converse of that, the flip side of that is,

00:15:34   if there are things that aren't in the App Store

00:15:35   because Apple isn't allowing them,

00:15:37   Apple is making their platform worse.

00:15:39   I think the success of Delta shows

00:15:41   that emulation has real potential.

00:15:45   I mean, look, emulators have been happening

00:15:48   outside of iPhones for a long time now,

00:15:50   but on the iPhone, it's not been a possibility.

00:15:52   And my point with my piece on six colors

00:15:55   is that I don't want this Delta thing to be a fake,

00:16:00   like I said, mostly for show,

00:16:07   where it's sort of like, well, we'll approve emulators,

00:16:10   but only in the most limited fashion possible

00:16:12   in order to get everybody off of our backs.

00:16:15   I think they need to truly embrace this idea.

00:16:19   I think that they need to,

00:16:21   so what I say in the article is like the JIT argument,

00:16:25   to me is, I get that they're worried,

00:16:29   but like the whole no emulator thing was a security worry.

00:16:33   Remember, this is all based on a rule back in the day

00:16:36   where they're like, nothing can execute code.

00:16:39   No apps can execute code.

00:16:41   And that was like, you could put Python on it,

00:16:43   but you couldn't have any Python,

00:16:45   you had to type in your Python scripts

00:16:47   'cause you're like, no, no, no, you can't.

00:16:49   It's code that could be interpreted or executed.

00:16:52   We can't allow it.

00:16:53   And they have gradually backed off on a lot of that.

00:16:55   But this saying that they're not gonna allow JITs,

00:16:58   so they're not gonna allow dolphin in the store,

00:17:02   is it strikes me as being one of those cases

00:17:05   where they are really hiding behind security

00:17:08   as a way to continue their control.

00:17:11   And so my article is basically saying, Apple, give it up.

00:17:14   Give it up for JITs, give it up for console.

00:17:19   Give it up for JITs and give it up for console.

00:17:22   Give it up for console.

00:17:24   I've said this before, but like,

00:17:26   my favorite games as a kid were on the Apple II.

00:17:29   Well, that's not a console, it's a computer.

00:17:33   And yeah, I could boot it up and do 10 print,

00:17:36   Jason is cool, 20 print, go to 10, but, or no, 20 go to 10.

00:17:40   If I do 20 print, go to 10, it's just gonna say,

00:17:42   Jason is cool, go to 10, which no one cares about.

00:17:45   I just, I just a bug in a basic program,

00:17:47   right on a podcast.

00:17:48   Anyway.

00:17:49   - No, do execute this code on your podcast.

00:17:53   - Mostly what I want to do is play "Load Runner," okay?

00:17:57   I wanna play SSI computer baseball

00:18:00   on my iPhone and my iPad.

00:18:01   I should be able to do that, even though it's not a console.

00:18:05   And it's such an arbitrary rule, all of those things.

00:18:07   Retro, I know you've talked about this,

00:18:09   like what does retro mean?

00:18:10   What does gaming mean?

00:18:11   What does console mean?

00:18:13   And I think it's stupid.

00:18:14   I think these are more arbitrary words that give Apple

00:18:18   essentially authority to say yes or no to anything.

00:18:20   It's that classic argument about like the point of a law

00:18:23   that isn't enforced is that it can be arbitrarily enforced

00:18:27   whenever, right?

00:18:28   Like if you make everything illegal,

00:18:30   then you can stop anyone you don't like for any reason.

00:18:33   And it's a portal to ultimate power.

00:18:35   It's not law and order anymore.

00:18:36   It's just control.

00:18:38   And that's where we are with this rule.

00:18:40   So I'll go further.

00:18:42   And some of this is I've talked about before,

00:18:44   but like old Mac emulators,

00:18:47   I played a lot of games on the Mac too,

00:18:48   but like regardless of games,

00:18:50   like Mac emulators should be allowed.

00:18:54   And in fact, I would say Apple might wanna

00:18:56   start making an effort.

00:18:57   In fact, there was just a story over the weekend

00:18:59   about how what some version of,

00:19:02   is it DOS or Windows, some old PC operating system

00:19:06   that was just put out publicly.

00:19:09   Like I know it's a little bit of effort,

00:19:11   at least legally to do it,

00:19:13   but like I would really like to see some tiny portion

00:19:15   of Apple acknowledge that their old platforms

00:19:18   can be emulated and that have some value

00:19:20   and that Apple should embrace it

00:19:23   and not have it be on the black market essentially.

00:19:26   And this also goes for the thing that we've lamented

00:19:29   for a long time, which is iPhone games.

00:19:32   That and apps in general,

00:19:34   and I would go beyond games here too and say,

00:19:37   one of the great tragedies of the app store

00:19:39   and app development is that Apple's pace

00:19:42   of iOS development is so great

00:19:45   that apps break and Apple even has a policy

00:19:47   of like if you don't touch an app,

00:19:49   I have a sticker app that's literally just stickers

00:19:51   for the incomparable in the store.

00:19:53   And I got a note saying, if you don't change it,

00:19:55   we'll take it off the store.

00:19:57   And it's like, there's stickers, man.

00:19:59   The stickers are still the stickers.

00:20:01   And they're like, no, we're gonna just take it off the store

00:20:03   because it hasn't gotten any updates.

00:20:05   And so they're really aggressive about updating the OS

00:20:10   which is fine, but it breaks old apps

00:20:12   and then kicking old apps off the store.

00:20:14   And I know that they've done some things with Apple Arcade

00:20:16   where they've said, oh, well, we're gonna pay somebody

00:20:18   to make flight control work again and all that.

00:20:20   But I'll just put it out there.

00:20:23   Today's phones and iPads are so powerful

00:20:25   that one thing you could do is offer a virtual machine

00:20:30   four-year-old operating system versions

00:20:34   so that old apps can still run, right?

00:20:38   Like, I know that's a wild idea,

00:20:39   but what's stopping Apple from emulating iOS 5

00:20:44   and letting all those apps run or iOS 7?

00:20:47   Like, resource-wise, it's not that much.

00:20:51   I mean, I'm not saying it wouldn't be work to build it,

00:20:53   but the hardware is so powerful

00:20:56   that I would really like to see Apple embrace this

00:20:58   as a strategy to keep things compatible.

00:21:01   And I know that there's this relentless,

00:21:03   like, well, yeah, but you've gotta keep,

00:21:05   we want our developers to move with the times.

00:21:07   It's fine, have the window be 10 years ago.

00:21:09   I don't care, but I think there's opportunity there.

00:21:12   And I've already said

00:21:14   that you should also just open emulation.

00:21:16   Like, the iPad should be able to run

00:21:17   a version of Parallels or VMware

00:21:19   and should be able to run Windows for ARM,

00:21:22   and it should be able to run macOS

00:21:24   because it's an ARM processor.

00:21:25   It's an M1 or M2 or who knows, M3 or M4 processor

00:21:30   and that iPad, we'll get to it.

00:21:31   And so I just emulate all the things is what I come back to.

00:21:34   It's like emulation is an amazing thing

00:21:36   because computers have been around

00:21:38   and phones have been around for a while now.

00:21:39   And there's amazing software out there that people love.

00:21:42   And yeah, some of it is nostalgia,

00:21:43   but like it's amazing software out there

00:21:45   that is lost to history otherwise.

00:21:47   It shouldn't live in the darkness.

00:21:49   It shouldn't be limited to just on like a PC

00:21:53   or a Linux box or something like that

00:21:56   because other people should have the delight

00:21:57   that you, Mike Hurley, have

00:21:59   in being able to play Pokemon on your iPhone.

00:22:01   Like, that should happen for everyone.

00:22:06   And I think it would make the platform better

00:22:08   and I wish Apple would get off of this box

00:22:10   and just admit that emulation is good

00:22:14   and they should allow it,

00:22:16   not allow it with a big asterisk

00:22:18   that means that only when they feel like it.

00:22:20   - So moving on, Ross Young has corrected his report

00:22:25   on the larger iPad Air having a mini LED screen.

00:22:28   He is now saying that the device could be coming

00:22:31   later this year that features this screen,

00:22:34   but it won't be the Air that we'll probably see next week.

00:22:38   And that if there is this device that could come later on,

00:22:43   it could be in Q4.

00:22:45   - Okay.

00:22:47   I still, I don't think I can even say.

00:22:53   I have also heard that this is a perfectly logical thing,

00:22:56   them reusing the mini LED screen

00:22:58   because they already built it

00:23:00   and that I've heard that like that's a reasonable thing

00:23:04   for them to do.

00:23:05   - Young says that he heard from many supply chain sources

00:23:10   that this won't be happening,

00:23:12   that his earlier report was wrong.

00:23:14   - Not this one.

00:23:14   So there may be something going on there,

00:23:16   but it's not this one.

00:23:17   - Yeah, so they may be reusing that screen, yes,

00:23:20   but it's not this.

00:23:22   - Interesting, interesting.

00:23:23   Well, this is bad in the sense that that's a nice feature.

00:23:28   It's good in the sense that it probably allows the iPad Air

00:23:31   to be a little more clearly downscale from the iPad Pro.

00:23:35   - Mm-hmm.

00:23:36   (upbeat music)

00:23:39   - This is brought to you by our friends at Squarespace,

00:23:41   the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs

00:23:44   to stand out and succeed online.

00:23:47   Whether you're just getting started

00:23:48   or managing a growing brand,

00:23:50   you can stand out from the crowd of a beautiful website,

00:23:52   engage directly with your audience and sell anything,

00:23:55   your products, services, and even the content

00:23:57   that you create.

00:23:58   Squarespace has got everything you need all in one place,

00:24:00   all on your terms.

00:24:02   Squarespace's blueprint AI and SEO tools

00:24:05   make it super easy to get started.

00:24:07   You get started with a completely personalized website

00:24:09   and with their new guided design system,

00:24:11   Squarespace Blueprint,

00:24:12   you choose from a professionally curated layout

00:24:15   and you take advantage of styling options

00:24:17   to build a unique online presence from the ground up,

00:24:20   tailored to your brand or business

00:24:21   and optimized for every device.

00:24:23   And then it's super easy to launch that website

00:24:25   and get discovered fast

00:24:26   with Squarespace's integrated optimized SEO tools.

00:24:29   You'll be showing up more often to more people

00:24:32   growing the way that you want.

00:24:33   Squarespace also have flexible payment options

00:24:36   that you can integrate to your store

00:24:38   to make checkout seamless for your customers

00:24:40   with simple but powerful payment tools.

00:24:42   You can accept credit cards, PayPal and Apple Pay,

00:24:45   and in eligible countries offer customers the option

00:24:47   to buy now and pay later with Afterpay and Clearpay.

00:24:51   You'll be able to stand out in any inbox as well

00:24:53   with Squarespace email campaigns.

00:24:55   You can make outreach automatic

00:24:58   with email marketing tools that engage your community,

00:25:00   drive sales and simplify audience management.

00:25:02   You can introduce your brand or business

00:25:04   to unlimited new subscribers with flexible email templates,

00:25:07   then create custom segments to send targeted campaigns.

00:25:11   We're building analytics to measure the impact of every send.

00:25:14   I have always loved just how easy it is

00:25:16   to make a Squarespace website look good

00:25:18   because they start from such beautiful starting places,

00:25:20   but give you the tools to be able to control it

00:25:22   and customize it to fit what you're looking for,

00:25:25   and they make it so simple to do so.

00:25:27   You can just go right now and check it out for yourself.

00:25:29   Go to squarespace.com and sign up for a free trial.

00:25:32   You can build your entire website,

00:25:34   see how fantastic it's gonna look

00:25:36   and how easy it is to build it.

00:25:37   Then when you're ready to launch to the world,

00:25:39   go to squarespace.com/upgrade to save 10%

00:25:42   of your first purchase of a website or domain.

00:25:44   That is squarespace.com/upgrade.

00:25:47   And when you decide to sign up,

00:25:48   get 10% off your first purchase

00:25:50   and show your support for the show.

00:25:52   Our thanks to Squarespace for the continued support

00:25:54   of this show and all of Relay FM.

00:25:56   It is time to lawyer up, Jason Snow.

00:26:01   Now, clunk, clunk.

00:26:02   We have amazing artwork being made soon is what I'll say.

00:26:05   The artwork is coming soon.

00:26:07   It's very good, but it takes time.

00:26:09   Because today the European Union has designated the iPad

00:26:14   as a gatekeeper and had given Apple six months

00:26:18   to comply with the DMA rules for iPad OS.

00:26:21   Previously, the DMA had just applied to iPhone OS,

00:26:25   but now iPad OS.

00:26:26   I'm gonna quote from the EU's press release.

00:26:30   "The commission opened a market investigation

00:26:32   "to assess whether Apple's iPad OS,

00:26:35   "despite not meeting the quantitative thresholds laid down

00:26:38   "in the EMA constitutes an important gateway

00:26:41   "for business users to reach end users

00:26:43   "and therefore should be designated as a gatekeeper."

00:26:45   Basically, they're saying the iPad does exceed

00:26:49   the thresholds of users for them

00:26:51   and that those users are locked into iPad OS.

00:26:55   I think there's going to be a lot of argument

00:26:58   in a lot of places about whether or not the EU

00:27:02   has just basically extended the rules to include this,

00:27:06   but nevertheless, they're saying they want it to comply

00:27:11   so they have six months to comply and put the iPad

00:27:15   in the same bucket as the iPhone.

00:27:17   So that means at marketplaces and all that fun stuff

00:27:20   for those in Europe.

00:27:21   - Right, now in terms of the sheer technical aspect

00:27:26   of this, iPad OS and iOS are the same essentially.

00:27:30   So it will, they've done the work, right?

00:27:33   So it's not, extending it to iPad OS is not going

00:27:38   to be hard for them.

00:27:39   I'm just gonna predict because they've already done it

00:27:42   for iOS.

00:27:43   I'll be interested to see the justification here.

00:27:47   I'm fine with it.

00:27:48   I always felt it was very weird that we would talk

00:27:50   about this thing, but only in an iPhone context.

00:27:52   So some of this stuff feels like it's actually better

00:27:54   in an iPad context.

00:27:56   I say that as somebody who uses his iPad more

00:27:59   than he uses his iPhone, right?

00:28:01   Like I can picture it better, a lot of things I'd like

00:28:04   to do on the iPad and you can't do them.

00:28:06   So this will allow them to do that.

00:28:08   - So I actually think they've updated this press release

00:28:11   'cause it's much more clear now than it was this morning

00:28:13   when I looked at this.

00:28:14   So that quote that I just read sounded weird, right?

00:28:18   But basically what they were trying to say is,

00:28:21   end user numbers for consumers,

00:28:24   the numbers weren't large enough to be in the threshold,

00:28:29   but now they are now saying that Apple's business

00:28:32   customer numbers exceed the quantitative threshold

00:28:36   for that 11 fold.

00:28:38   So that's why.

00:28:39   - And I believe what they said too is that they expect

00:28:42   that they will meet the quantitative threshold

00:28:45   for the regular users soon.

00:28:48   - 'Cause they say they are very close to it.

00:28:49   And so they're just basically getting ahead of it

00:28:52   and saying, put it in.

00:28:54   - Yeah, now I'm not gonna go into it here,

00:28:57   but we'll just say based on our discussion

00:28:59   about the Department of Justice suit,

00:29:04   that claiming that users are locked in

00:29:09   is an extremely debatable issue.

00:29:14   That said, justifications being whatever they are,

00:29:20   the European Commission has the force of law

00:29:24   to demand that Apple change its behavior.

00:29:26   So we can debate this,

00:29:28   but there's no debate society here in court

00:29:31   like there will be in the US.

00:29:33   This is just, they've decided it,

00:29:35   and therefore they will regulate it.

00:29:37   End result, I would argue,

00:29:40   will be a less fractured experience for users in the EU,

00:29:44   because it's gotta be weird to have stuff on your phone

00:29:48   that is completely unavailable on your iPad.

00:29:50   Although I will say this, if you've got a bunch of stuff,

00:29:56   you've embraced the DMA lifestyle in the EU on your iPhone,

00:30:00   and your iPad can't use any of that,

00:30:05   does making the iPad be compatible with all that stuff

00:30:11   actually make the iPad more part of an ecosystem

00:30:16   and therefore increase lock-in?

00:30:20   I'm just saying, right?

00:30:22   'Cause if the iPad can't do all the stuff your phone can do,

00:30:25   and then there's stuff on Android that does it,

00:30:28   I mean, would you consider getting an Android, I don't know.

00:30:30   I'm being a little bit silly, but at the same time,

00:30:33   it actually sort of bringing the iPad

00:30:35   into alignment with the iPhone makes it actually easier

00:30:38   to just be comfortable in Apple's ecosystem,

00:30:40   because now those two things are connected

00:30:42   in a way that they weren't before.

00:30:43   But I guess we'll see what happens.

00:30:44   I don't anticipate this is gonna be a big deal.

00:30:47   My guess, if I had to guess right now,

00:30:49   it will be that Apple will have an update

00:30:51   that will follow the new OS version in the fall.

00:30:55   There will be a subsequent update

00:30:57   that will implement this in the EU sometime this fall,

00:31:02   right at the deadline, right?

00:31:03   - Yeah, it'll either be like 18.1 or whatever,

00:31:07   but it's gonna be around that time.

00:31:10   As you say, I mean, I'm sure there's work, but way less,

00:31:14   because they're essentially the same, right?

00:31:17   - And this is gonna be end of October,

00:31:19   so it could be 18.0, but it could also easily be

00:31:21   like an 18.1 update,

00:31:24   depending on how they wanna do their release schedule.

00:31:26   - I'm actually kind of happy this has happened

00:31:28   just to make the bifurcation less complicated.

00:31:33   - I agree, I agree.

00:31:34   It always felt a little bit weird

00:31:35   that we were talking about,

00:31:36   that we're so used to talking about everything

00:31:38   in the iPhone and iPad context,

00:31:40   and then there's this EU thing where it's just not.

00:31:43   So for us, it'll be more convenient, us outside the EU.

00:31:47   But I would imagine that there are a lot of people in the EU

00:31:50   who have iPhones and iPads who've been frustrated

00:31:51   'cause they really love something,

00:31:53   whether it's just an emulator or whatever.

00:31:55   They're gonna be things that they like,

00:31:57   assuming that anybody adopts all of these changes, right?

00:32:00   But assuming you add an alternative app store

00:32:02   and all of that, like you get Fortnite, let's say,

00:32:04   and you get it on your phone, and you're like,

00:32:05   "Yeah, but I'm gonna switch to my iPad and play it there."

00:32:08   It's like, nope, you can't, you're not allowed.

00:32:10   Not allowed on the iPad, so this will change that.

00:32:13   - Room around uptime.

00:32:16   - Yeehaw.

00:32:17   - Mark Gurman's been busy.

00:32:18   He's had a bunch of reports in the last few days,

00:32:20   and I wanna go over them with you.

00:32:22   So first up, reporting that Apple and OpenAI

00:32:26   have renewed discussions about being a part of iOS 18.

00:32:30   This feels late in the game.

00:32:31   I'm wondering, so basically this is them being

00:32:36   one of the options, that Apple's gonna have

00:32:38   multiple partners, and like a search engine,

00:32:40   you'll be able to choose who you want.

00:32:42   I think that this is very much, I could imagine,

00:32:45   we're talking with multiple partners,

00:32:48   and they might not even go over it yet.

00:32:50   I mean, why wait for September for this part?

00:32:52   - We're not picking any winners, and well,

00:32:54   this goes with our speculation a while ago,

00:32:58   which is the idea is if Apple handles the front end

00:33:01   and has a model on the phone,

00:33:04   then a lot of stuff can be in the cloud,

00:33:08   and you can have different sources

00:33:09   for different kinds of material.

00:33:11   You can have different sources in different regions.

00:33:13   You could be able to choose a primary source

00:33:15   like a search engine, and it doesn't feel quite as

00:33:19   late in the game to me because it's a backend cloud service.

00:33:23   And I think, like if you're Apple,

00:33:26   you don't wanna tie yourself so closely

00:33:28   to a single cloud provider on the backend,

00:33:31   'cause then you're kinda yoked to them.

00:33:34   And so I think this is the idea is it's all Apple up front,

00:33:38   and then back in the cloud, there's stuff,

00:33:41   and it might be open AI stuff, it might be Google stuff,

00:33:43   it might be other things that rise

00:33:45   or things that fall get pulled out,

00:33:47   and they can just have that all be,

00:33:50   it's backing information.

00:33:51   It's my LLM is gonna talk to your LLM,

00:33:55   and it's gonna give back information,

00:33:57   which then my LLM's gonna process it

00:34:00   and give it to the user, right?

00:34:01   It's gonna be stuff like that.

00:34:02   - Here's something that I think

00:34:04   could be interesting here, right?

00:34:05   Like I imagine Apple could potentially reference

00:34:08   the fact that this would happen, right?

00:34:09   There's on-device stuff, and then there's stuff

00:34:11   that happens off-device, and that's,

00:34:13   you know, there's another provider.

00:34:15   I, you know, we call those for the web,

00:34:19   they're search engines, right?

00:34:20   It's your default search engine.

00:34:21   - Yeah.

00:34:22   - Is Apple going to create a term

00:34:25   to call ChatGPT, Gemini?

00:34:30   Like we call them like LLM's.

00:34:31   I don't think Apple's gonna do that.

00:34:33   I'd be surprised. - No, it'll be like,

00:34:34   like AI source or something, right?

00:34:36   - Yeah, and so my wonder is if Apple creates this term,

00:34:41   could that become a term, like the industry term

00:34:43   to describe these things?

00:34:44   It's possible?

00:34:45   - It's possible.

00:34:46   I also had the thought that,

00:34:48   depending on where they're integrating this stuff,

00:34:50   so let's say they're integrating this stuff

00:34:52   into a generative AI thing, right?

00:34:56   Where they're not gonna do generative,

00:34:58   it sounds like, out of the box for their tool,

00:35:00   but this is the sort of thing where it's like,

00:35:03   look at this paragraph and correct the grammar,

00:35:05   or write three paragraphs about this topic, right?

00:35:09   And first off, that's really great if Apple can like say,

00:35:12   "Nope, it wasn't us who hallucinated that thing.

00:35:14   "It was the Cloud AI provider."

00:35:18   But if they do that, one way for them to do that

00:35:20   is to integrate it into their text editing APIs, right?

00:35:25   Where, this is an interesting idea,

00:35:28   where there might be new LLM-based features

00:35:33   that are available through the text editing APIs

00:35:36   that are basically so it's at the system level.

00:35:39   And then you would choose your source potentially,

00:35:42   but you would be able, so if you're following me here,

00:35:45   like you could choose ChatGPT, or you could choose Gemini,

00:35:49   or you could choose something else, I don't even know.

00:35:52   And that would be what would be used when you say,

00:35:56   when you select text and say, correct this,

00:35:59   or when you are in pages and you say,

00:36:01   give me three paragraphs, it would use like, right?

00:36:05   Which would make sense in a certain way

00:36:06   that it would be pervasive in the system at an API level.

00:36:10   And then there would be the models that would be

00:36:13   part of that at the system level, right?

00:36:16   So instead of it being, we wired pages with ChatGPT,

00:36:20   it would be that system text and there's this API

00:36:24   and they know about each other

00:36:26   and your apps also will know about it

00:36:28   and get to use this feature.

00:36:30   And so app developers, 'cause at WWDC,

00:36:32   they'll be talking to app developers.

00:36:34   This is how you build this stuff in.

00:36:35   At a system level, which I think is smart,

00:36:38   I think that's a way to do it.

00:36:39   'Cause then instead of you having to do the work

00:36:41   of integrating with an AI provider,

00:36:46   you integrate with a system

00:36:47   that you're used to integrating with

00:36:48   and it hands that stuff to you.

00:36:50   So if they do it that way, so it's like,

00:36:51   you can do it in notes, you can do it in pages,

00:36:53   you can do it in mail,

00:36:55   and you can do it in your third party apps.

00:36:57   That starts to sound like an app-ily approach

00:37:01   to using these LLMs.

00:37:03   - Also, Mark Gurman is reporting

00:37:08   some other features coming to iOS 18.

00:37:11   So updates to many built-in apps

00:37:13   like mail, fitness notes, and photos.

00:37:16   How much those updates, I don't know.

00:37:18   I could imagine all of these apps getting some AI stuff.

00:37:22   So I expect that to be sprinkled all over the place.

00:37:25   The iPad is going to get a calculator app

00:37:27   because the calculator app is going to be updated

00:37:30   and they're gonna put it on the iPad.

00:37:32   - Amazing.

00:37:32   - Pull one out for James Thompson.

00:37:34   - It only took him a million years.

00:37:36   - And once again, confirming the other reports,

00:37:40   free placement of icons on the home screen.

00:37:43   - Yeah, you wanna put that app down there in the corner?

00:37:46   - Go for it. - Great, do it.

00:37:48   - You know? - Yep.

00:37:49   What a life, what a world.

00:37:50   - Let's get some aesthetics up in there.

00:37:52   And also, Mark had a final report ahead of the new iPad

00:37:56   unveiling, which we're gonna talk about in a little bit,

00:37:58   the iPad event coming next week.

00:38:00   Two details, one, the Apple Pencil will have haptic feedback.

00:38:04   I don't know what this means.

00:38:06   Is this haptic like an iPhone or haptic like an AirPod?

00:38:11   You know?

00:38:12   They're both haptic feedback, but the AirPod,

00:38:15   it just feels like you're clicking it.

00:38:17   Or the Magic Trackpad or whatever.

00:38:20   But the iPhone, I mean, now things like buzzing and bipping

00:38:22   and blooping all over the place.

00:38:24   So what's it gonna be?

00:38:25   - Right, so is it a button that you squeeze

00:38:28   and it makes it, you have a little,

00:38:31   it feels like you squeezed it?

00:38:32   Or is it that I'm drawing on the screen

00:38:34   and it's going, you know, when you get to the edge

00:38:37   or when you snap to a marker or whatever?

00:38:40   - Do Apple do what so many people have tried to do

00:38:42   and say, "It feels like you're drawing on paper,"

00:38:44   because they like give you a little vibration?

00:38:47   - Let me tell you, having experienced the haptic feedback

00:38:51   on the Magic Trackpad, which I've turned off on Mac OS,

00:38:55   where they have that thing where it hits the rule boundary

00:38:58   and it locks, it snaps for a moment

00:39:01   and it vibrates the trackpad.

00:39:03   I hate all that stuff.

00:39:04   No, don't do it.

00:39:05   But if it's AirPod-like where it's sort of like

00:39:09   I squeeze it and I get some feedback,

00:39:10   so that's how they're doing their button, that's fine.

00:39:13   I'm also worried about if you use it too much,

00:39:15   you're gonna kill the battery too on top of everything else.

00:39:17   - Very possible.

00:39:19   But the weird news, honestly, Mark Gurman believes,

00:39:24   he doesn't feel sure about this himself, I think,

00:39:27   from his reporting, that he has heard

00:39:30   that the iPad Pro could feature an M4 chip

00:39:32   and would be positioned as an AI-powered device.

00:39:36   I have two issues with this.

00:39:40   One, it's strange, I mean, not impossible,

00:39:44   but strange to introduce the M4 here.

00:39:46   Like, that is odd.

00:39:48   - It would be even weirder for them to talk about this

00:39:50   as an AI-powered device when nothing will change

00:39:55   for another six weeks, right, at minimum.

00:39:57   It's only as AI-powered as any other current product

00:40:02   that Apple sells.

00:40:03   Like, it's not, okay, they may get

00:40:06   the neural engine enhancements

00:40:08   that every A&M series chip has had, right?

00:40:11   That like, things that like in a Pixel major on the iPad

00:40:17   will happen quicker, but that's not making it

00:40:19   any more AI-powered than before, just things happen faster.

00:40:23   This would be, I would be fascinated to see

00:40:26   if they're able to pull that off,

00:40:28   but it would be surprising to me, honestly.

00:40:30   - I could not believe this report.

00:40:34   - No.

00:40:35   - It doesn't make sense to me for so many reasons.

00:40:38   It doesn't make sense in terms of the chip cycle.

00:40:44   Like, this is doing a chip ahead of the chip cycle,

00:40:49   ahead of the iPhone chip cycle.

00:40:52   It's, you know, what even is an M4 chip

00:40:55   if it comes out a few months after the M3 chip?

00:40:59   Also, wasn't this product supposed to be released

00:41:02   like a month or two ago?

00:41:03   And like, it was even closer to the, like,

00:41:06   I wonder if there's some enthusiasm for this product

00:41:10   that has gotten in the way, 'cause I've heard people

00:41:13   assuming it was an M4 to begin with,

00:41:14   and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:41:16   No, we're not there yet.

00:41:17   This is M3, this is late M3 cycle, not M4 cycle.

00:41:21   So it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

00:41:24   And the AI stuff, right, like, the AI stuff is happening

00:41:26   in June at WWDC, right?

00:41:28   That's what we've all been told.

00:41:30   So why is it that a month earlier,

00:41:34   there's a product launch that details AI features,

00:41:37   but just for the iPad, and also has this chip

00:41:42   that should probably not be available for six months?

00:41:45   It doesn't, I mean, you're right, Mark Gurman is hedging,

00:41:49   but it's also Mark Gurman.

00:41:51   - I think he has the same, I'm going to infer

00:41:56   he has the same skepticism that we do,

00:41:59   that on the face of what he has said,

00:42:01   it doesn't make sense.

00:42:04   Like, but I can understand a scenario

00:42:06   where take the AI part of it, that the M4 chip is so good

00:42:11   for what they're going to announce,

00:42:13   that they're just putting it in here now,

00:42:15   because it's the best thing for September, October time.

00:42:19   - Right, so I've got, so I, let's say, I don't believe this,

00:42:24   but I have a scenario where this happens.

00:42:29   So here it is, we already did our draft,

00:42:32   we'll talk about it, but I have a scenario

00:42:35   where this happens, so scenario one, the chip.

00:42:39   The, what if the AI stuff really did,

00:42:44   like Apple was concerned enough about the rise of AI stuff,

00:42:48   that while they couldn't change their roadmap,

00:42:51   there was a way to expedite a generation where they're like,

00:42:55   this is going to be way better,

00:42:57   and expedite the base chip from that generation,

00:43:01   and pull it forward a little bit.

00:43:03   Like, is that impossible?

00:43:05   No, it doesn't, it's not something they've done before,

00:43:09   but first off, they can call anything an M4,

00:43:13   it could literally be an M3 on a different process,

00:43:16   and they could call it M4.

00:43:18   So there's that, right?

00:43:19   Like how different is it?

00:43:20   And is it possible that they felt like

00:43:23   they were going to expedite the low end M4 generation chip,

00:43:27   and get it out now?

00:43:28   Although keep in mind, there's an M3 chip,

00:43:29   according to Germin, that hasn't even shipped yet

00:43:31   in a product, right?

00:43:34   That they're planning on shipping.

00:43:35   So how would this be an M4?

00:43:37   But I'm just saying,

00:43:38   just because I'm trying to play this out,

00:43:40   is there a scenario where they kind of did a red alert,

00:43:44   and they were targeting this generation,

00:43:47   and saying, can we get this?

00:43:49   Or maybe they got it, the fab at TSMC came up,

00:43:54   that could make this, and they're like, you know what?

00:43:56   We could put this in that iPad,

00:43:58   'cause it's not going to ship in the kind of quantity

00:44:00   where we need to get it up and running,

00:44:03   and then by the time we need this in some iMacs,

00:44:05   or a MacBook Air, it's going to be six months from now,

00:44:09   and we can put it in now,

00:44:10   and it will give us a little bit of a benefit.

00:44:11   - And if we're talking ourselves into this, right?

00:44:14   This, we've been expecting these iPads for like two months.

00:44:18   - I know, and so you, yeah.

00:44:19   Although, so that actually--

00:44:20   - And then also, if I make one last point,

00:44:22   and what if some of the features that are AI focused,

00:44:29   they realized we can only have this on new hardware?

00:44:34   - Okay, so this is a good segue into my other point here,

00:44:37   which is, remember, they were supposed to come earlier,

00:44:42   according to Mark Gurman, and then they weren't.

00:44:45   And one of the things that he kept saying was,

00:44:48   because of the software update, and again,

00:44:51   I'm not saying I believe this report, 'cause I don't,

00:44:54   but he said because of the software update,

00:44:56   and we read that as being, well,

00:44:58   they gotta add in the software for the keyboard,

00:45:00   and they gotta add in the software for the pencil.

00:45:03   - I think Mark read it that way too.

00:45:04   I think that's how it seemed.

00:45:05   - But again, just spitballing here,

00:45:08   I don't think this is likely,

00:45:10   but I'm just gonna put it out there.

00:45:12   What if there were some features

00:45:15   that were plausibly AI related?

00:45:18   If Apple's really feeling the heat about AI,

00:45:21   plausibly AI related, that were previously going to be held

00:45:26   for another version of the software,

00:45:28   for an 18 beta and then an 18 release,

00:45:32   that were far enough along that they put them,

00:45:36   and again, that they pulled them back and said,

00:45:39   let's make this work on a very late 17 release on iPad OS,

00:45:44   mark it as a beta, but let us ship it in May,

00:45:49   and say, because then we're gonna be able to say

00:45:52   these new iPads are AI monsters,

00:45:54   and it's gonna get some of the heat off of us.

00:45:57   - Because realistically-- - Is that impossible?

00:45:59   - Like, is there even-- - I mean, yeah, that's enough.

00:46:02   - If it's a Siri model, right?

00:46:05   We'll just say for the sake of it,

00:46:07   we'll call it Siri, right?

00:46:08   And it's doing some stuff.

00:46:10   - Yeah.

00:46:10   - Is there even an SDK for that anyway?

00:46:12   - Right, is there a developer story at all?

00:46:15   - Does it need to wait for that?

00:46:16   And they can also still have like a,

00:46:18   hey, we have a new AI kit that you can integrate with,

00:46:22   but you're right, could they stage it out?

00:46:24   Could there be a part of it that's like,

00:46:26   it doesn't really need beta testing

00:46:29   because it's not necessarily, I don't know, I don't know.

00:46:33   - It could also be literally that they tie pages and notes

00:46:37   and stuff into an LLM as a beta,

00:46:42   and it's not the Apple thing at all,

00:46:44   it's just some other features, and they're like,

00:46:46   look, AI, more to come, and then they walk away.

00:46:50   So I guess what I'm saying is,

00:46:53   I can't entirely discount this rumor

00:46:56   because if Apple was desperate enough

00:47:01   to show that they're not behind in AI,

00:47:05   I mean, they are not as far behind in AI

00:47:08   as they're portrayed to be, and to make the stock market,

00:47:13   make their investors feel good about it.

00:47:16   And I'm not saying that is, quite the opposite,

00:47:19   that is not the way to develop a product.

00:47:23   - Can I just say on that for a second,

00:47:25   'cause a lot of people say this,

00:47:26   there is a possibility that Apple do not want

00:47:29   this perception inside of the technology community,

00:47:32   that it's not just for investors,

00:47:34   it's that generally in the community,

00:47:38   they are considered as behind.

00:47:39   And also, do you know what this is before?

00:47:42   It's before Google I/O, where it is very expected

00:47:47   that Google is about to drop huge Gemini integrations

00:47:51   into Android, and that they are going to potentially

00:47:55   keep some of it for themselves on their own devices.

00:47:58   And maybe they wanna get ahead of that too, I don't know.

00:48:01   Like we're in for what is unprecedented times for a while,

00:48:05   because the playing field has been leveled a bit.

00:48:09   - Right, so what I would say is,

00:48:12   it's not necessarily about the stock market,

00:48:15   but it is also about the stock market.

00:48:17   It is about general perception, general perception about it.

00:48:20   It is about competition, which is great.

00:48:22   Also, I can see Apple saying,

00:48:28   we have some of this stuff now, right?

00:48:35   So I say, this isn't how you design and develop a product,

00:48:38   but I can see them saying, you know what?

00:48:41   We have some of this stuff now,

00:48:43   and we're gonna have more in the future.

00:48:45   And we've got these new iPads coming out,

00:48:46   and then we're not gonna update iPads for a year and a half.

00:48:49   So if we're gonna do this, maybe we should,

00:48:51   if we've got it and we can make some claims now,

00:48:54   let's make some claims now,

00:48:55   and let's change the narrative going into WWDC

00:48:58   with our first, and it doesn't have to run anywhere else yet,

00:49:01   but like our first super AI powered product,

00:49:05   and it's the iPad Pro, let's say, and that sets the table.

00:49:08   So again, do I think that this is likely?

00:49:12   I kind of don't.

00:49:13   Do I think that Apple will position the iPad Pro

00:49:15   as an AI powered device?

00:49:17   Well, probably, because everything is AI powered.

00:49:19   They positioned the MacBook Air as an AI powered device too,

00:49:22   to a certain extent.

00:49:23   So if they add a feature here or there

00:49:25   in that software update, they will certainly,

00:49:28   if it's got any machine learning algorithms in it,

00:49:30   they will make claims that it is.

00:49:31   But if it's got something where they're like,

00:49:34   you know what, we pulled pages,

00:49:35   AI powered pages forward or whatever,

00:49:38   then they'll do that.

00:49:40   If they've got some APIs that they can,

00:49:41   that were basically at the ready,

00:49:43   that they changed their priority on four months ago

00:49:47   to get them in a little bit sooner, marked as a beta,

00:49:51   because remember, the counter argument is

00:49:52   it's only a month till WWDC,

00:49:54   which means it's really only like five or six weeks

00:49:56   before they would release a beta of the new features.

00:50:01   So could you polish them a little more

00:50:04   so that they fit in the existing OS

00:50:06   and still call them beta?

00:50:08   And I know developer beta is scary,

00:50:09   but you give them an extra three or four months.

00:50:11   Like all of this is possible.

00:50:14   I think the chip part is the most outlandish one

00:50:18   because it goes against everything they've done.

00:50:20   And also, like I've said all along,

00:50:23   Apple's chips already have AI ML capabilities.

00:50:27   They've, between the neural engine

00:50:29   and the stuff they've been doing on the GPU,

00:50:31   like they have lots of that stuff already built in.

00:50:33   It doesn't require like to flip the switch

00:50:35   to go to an AI chip.

00:50:36   Like they don't need to do that.

00:50:38   So I'm super skeptical,

00:50:41   but I can't just say it's not gonna happen

00:50:45   because I think you gotta look at the fact

00:50:48   that Apple is fighting this perception in the industry,

00:50:51   in the stock market,

00:50:53   just in general that they have lost the plot.

00:50:56   And although you might be like,

00:50:57   "Ah, they'll just shrug it off. They always do."

00:51:00   Yeah, but Tim Cook is going on,

00:51:02   the industry quarterly analyst calls,

00:51:05   talking about how they're gonna do AI.

00:51:07   He's talking to doing interviews and saying,

00:51:09   "AI is a big focus for us.

00:51:11   And we're gonna make some big AI announcements

00:51:14   later this year."

00:51:14   That is a sign that they are very concerned about perception.

00:51:17   And we saw with the MacBook Air release

00:51:22   that they've changed how they refer to features.

00:51:26   And they are talking about AI power now,

00:51:29   which they always soft-pedaled.

00:51:31   They're now hard selling it.

00:51:33   And calling it AI.

00:51:34   Because they are concerned about their perception.

00:51:37   So we do exist in a world where Apple is deeply concerned

00:51:40   about the perception that they are losing it

00:51:42   when it comes to AI.

00:51:44   So while this is an extreme bizarre assertion

00:51:48   that it's gonna be an M4 chip with AI features,

00:51:51   I don't think we can rule it out

00:51:53   because Apple is feeling that pressure.

00:51:55   And that might have led Apple

00:51:57   to make some surprising off-pattern judgments

00:52:00   a few months ago,

00:52:02   which potentially delayed this product.

00:52:05   Especially, I'll bring us back to that original report,

00:52:08   delayed because of software.

00:52:10   - I'm still not convinced,

00:52:12   but I'm more convinced than I was when I read this report.

00:52:16   Like I feel like we have talked ourselves around on it

00:52:19   that I can understand the scenario in which it would happen,

00:52:21   but I'm still not sure that it will.

00:52:24   - Yeah, it's, I don't know.

00:52:25   I mean, I'm sure they will position it

00:52:28   as an AI powered device, right?

00:52:29   But like, and it would not be,

00:52:32   again, I just wanna say,

00:52:33   it would not be that wild.

00:52:36   I know everybody's like,

00:52:37   "Oh, they're breaking their pattern.

00:52:37   They're not gonna do that."

00:52:39   But like, it would not be that wild for them to say,

00:52:42   "We have new versions of iWork

00:52:43   that have AI features in them."

00:52:45   Right?

00:52:46   I mean, they could do something like that.

00:52:48   That's not everywhere in the OS is a pervasive thing.

00:52:51   But you're right, Mike.

00:52:52   They could also say,

00:52:53   here's a preview, you know,

00:52:54   you can turn on this beta preview of Siri 2

00:52:57   or Siri Pro or whatever,

00:52:59   Siri AI on the iPad Pro.

00:53:01   And people are like, "What do you mean?

00:53:02   It's just on the iPad Pro."

00:53:03   And they're like, "Mm, wait and see."

00:53:07   They could do that too.

00:53:08   So, certainly I would guarantee

00:53:11   there will be an AI story at this event about the iPad.

00:53:14   There will absolutely be.

00:53:16   The question is,

00:53:17   is it as kind of radical as it seems here in this report?

00:53:20   Or is it more what we expected,

00:53:23   which is Apple's gonna,

00:53:24   like with a MacBook Air,

00:53:25   they're gonna kind of push it and say,

00:53:26   "Yeah, AI, AI."

00:53:29   But we're really gonna need to wait

00:53:30   until the developer conference to see more.

00:53:33   I don't know.

00:53:34   This episode is brought to you by SaneBox.

00:53:38   Having an empty inbox is a thing of the past.

00:53:40   We are inundated and unindated with email.

00:53:44   And there is no longer the ability

00:53:46   to respond to anything and everything

00:53:47   because it's just about responding to the important things.

00:53:51   Now, the messages that truly matter,

00:53:53   the things you actually care about,

00:53:54   the things that are important to you.

00:53:56   That is where SaneBox comes in.

00:53:58   You can think of it as triage for your email.

00:54:00   As messages flow in, pile into your inbox,

00:54:03   SaneBox does that sorting for you.

00:54:06   It sifts out the important emails,

00:54:07   puts them in your inbox,

00:54:09   and directs all the other distracting stuff

00:54:11   into your SaneLater folder.

00:54:12   So you know what messages to pay attention to now

00:54:15   when you open your email

00:54:16   and what stuff you can get to later on.

00:54:19   SaneBox also has features like SaneBlackHole

00:54:21   where you can drag messages from annoying senders

00:54:24   and you never wanna hear from them again.

00:54:26   SaneReminders so you can have a reminder basically

00:54:30   if you haven't heard from somebody by a certain date.

00:54:33   And you can use SaneBox of any email client,

00:54:36   any device, anywhere you check your email.

00:54:38   This is so important.

00:54:39   So even if you use different applications

00:54:41   on your phone and your Mac or your Android phone or your PC,

00:54:45   it does not matter.

00:54:46   Even if you use it on the web

00:54:47   because SaneBox is gonna be there

00:54:49   and it's gonna be filtering your stuff for you.

00:54:50   You can even have it take newsletters

00:54:52   and put those in a separate folder

00:54:54   so you can get to those maybe on the weekend

00:54:55   when you wanna catch up with your newsletters

00:54:57   rather than filling your inbox

00:54:59   and hiding something that you wanna respond to.

00:55:01   I really think SaneBox is an incredible way

00:55:03   to triage your email

00:55:05   and make sure that you're just getting to the stuff

00:55:07   that you really wanna deal with.

00:55:08   See how SaneBox can magically remove distractions

00:55:11   from your inbox of a free two week trial.

00:55:13   Go to SaneBox.com/upgradefm today

00:55:16   to start your free trial and get a $25 credit too.

00:55:20   That is S-A-N-E-B-O-X.com/upgradefm.

00:55:24   Our thanks to SaneBox for their support of this show

00:55:27   and Real AFM.

00:55:28   So there is an iPad event.

00:55:31   There is an actual video event,

00:55:33   which we did not expect. - Yeah.

00:55:35   - And it is happening on May 7th.

00:55:37   Now, leading on from that conversation we just had,

00:55:39   I'm like, why would they do that?

00:55:42   They have something to say?

00:55:44   Oh, I'm coming around to this report

00:55:48   that I'm not sure about.

00:55:49   So we'll be recording after the event at some point.

00:55:53   So on May 7th, because we'll be talking

00:55:56   about the thing that it was,

00:55:57   but we have already drafted.

00:55:58   So I've spent a few days with my friend and our friend,

00:56:02   friend of the show, _DavidSmith.

00:56:04   I'm gonna talk about that in Upgrade Plus today

00:56:06   because we got up to some fun stuff.

00:56:08   And he referenced to me, he's like,

00:56:10   are you gonna draft today?

00:56:11   And he was like, oh, you already did it.

00:56:13   Yes, we already did it on March 25th.

00:56:17   Over a month ago, we drafted

00:56:19   because we were expecting some press releases to appear.

00:56:23   But no, now we have an actual event coming up,

00:56:27   which I'm excited about.

00:56:28   It's gonna be interesting.

00:56:29   I thought though, what might be fun today

00:56:32   is to now in the cruel light of a month later,

00:56:35   look at our picks and run through them real quick

00:56:37   and see how confident we're feeling about them

00:56:40   one way or another ahead of scoring them next week.

00:56:43   What do you think?

00:56:44   - Let's do it.

00:56:46   - All right, you go through yours and I'll go through mine.

00:56:48   - Okay, new Apple Pencil introduced.

00:56:52   - Okay.

00:56:53   - Feel good about it.

00:56:54   - Yeah, yeah.

00:56:56   - I think that is- - That one's good.

00:56:58   - Yeah, that one's good.

00:56:59   Oh, some of these others are not so good,

00:57:01   but that one's good.

00:57:02   Larger track pad on the Magic Keyboard.

00:57:06   - Okay.

00:57:08   - I'm just trying to imagine.

00:57:09   So the rationale here is I'm trying to imagine,

00:57:12   I'm also seeing in the harsh light of day,

00:57:15   why I've lost so many drafts in a row

00:57:17   is it's 'cause I'm making dumb picks, that's why.

00:57:19   I'm making picks that are entertaining

00:57:22   and that I want to happen and not picks that are boring

00:57:25   and actually going to happen.

00:57:27   So the rationale here is

00:57:30   if you're gonna do a Magic Keyboard

00:57:32   and one of the big knocks on it is the lack of function rows

00:57:36   and the other big knock on it is the track pad is tiny,

00:57:39   would you not make the track pad bigger?

00:57:42   That's it, that's all I got.

00:57:44   The base model iPad receives an update.

00:57:50   Now, I think I've seen some reports

00:57:52   that that's not happening.

00:57:53   - Oh, really?

00:57:54   - So I thought I saw something that said

00:57:56   that that wasn't gonna happen.

00:57:58   So we'll see, we'll see.

00:58:01   An iPad Pro case is offered in a color

00:58:03   that isn't essentially gray, white or black.

00:58:06   I don't know, I don't know Mike.

00:58:09   Right now they used to do it in colors

00:58:13   and then they kind of took the colors away.

00:58:15   So I'm concerned about this,

00:58:16   but again, I wanna manifest things that are good

00:58:20   into the world by picking them on a draft.

00:58:22   It's not how you should draft.

00:58:24   iPad Pro has a new OS feature

00:58:26   that takes advantage of a new accessory.

00:58:27   I think that's a given, right?

00:58:30   There'll be something

00:58:30   that takes advantage of a new accessory.

00:58:33   Pencil thing that is alternate pencil items or something.

00:58:38   - There's an expectation of some kind of button or feature.

00:58:42   So like you've got to tie it to something.

00:58:44   - Yeah, yeah.

00:58:46   Magic Keyboard comes color matched to iPad Pro models.

00:58:50   So right, currently it's like white and gray.

00:58:56   So, but there's this metallic,

00:58:58   it's supposed to be like aluminum.

00:59:00   So I feel like they want to make them match.

00:59:03   I actually feel okay about that pick too.

00:59:05   You have a lot of Magic Keyboard picks here.

00:59:07   I'm really excited about the Magic Keyboard.

00:59:08   That's the problem.

00:59:10   Magic Keyboard only works with 2024 iPad Pro models.

00:59:12   I still believe that too.

00:59:14   - Yep.

00:59:15   - It'll eventually work with others,

00:59:16   but I think not out of the gate.

00:59:18   - No.

00:59:19   - And new Apple Pencil has an eraser,

00:59:21   which we said at the time,

00:59:23   if you can flip it over and erase something in a mode,

00:59:27   then that's what I'm talking about.

00:59:29   It's sort of a second surface to do that sort of thing.

00:59:33   I don't know what happens.

00:59:34   We'd have to check the tape if you can press a button

00:59:37   and turn it into a eraser,

00:59:38   but that's sort of not what I was thinking.

00:59:40   - Okay.

00:59:41   - Those are my choices.

00:59:42   Mine are both iPad Pro models have an OLED display.

00:59:46   - I'm feeling good about that.

00:59:48   - The iPad Pro front camera is on the horizontal edge.

00:59:52   - Feeling good about that.

00:59:53   - iPad Air comes in current iPad Pro sizes.

00:59:56   - Also feeling good about that.

00:59:58   - iPad Pro starts at a higher price.

01:00:01   Feeling good about that.

01:00:02   New Magic Keyboard has a function row.

01:00:05   - I think, why not?

01:00:06   - This is very similar to your larger trackpad.

01:00:08   If you're gonna do it, actually do it.

01:00:10   - Do it.

01:00:11   - Do it if you're gonna do it.

01:00:12   - The iPad Air front camera is on the horizontal edge.

01:00:15   I'm going all horizontal edge.

01:00:17   I didn't remember doing that.

01:00:18   - It's interesting 'cause it's possible.

01:00:21   I mean, it should be, right?

01:00:22   But it's possible that this will be one of those frustrations

01:00:25   where Apple still doesn't drag the whole product line

01:00:28   where it needs to go

01:00:29   because it's reusing old hardware designs or something.

01:00:33   I don't know.

01:00:34   I hope so.

01:00:35   - The new Apple Pencil charges magnetically.

01:00:39   And the reason that that is a,

01:00:41   I guess a pick of question is because of the camera, right?

01:00:45   What happens to that thing?

01:00:47   - Yeah.

01:00:48   They came up with that new Apple Pencil

01:00:49   that charges via USB-C.

01:00:52   So there's a question, if they move the camera,

01:00:55   do they offer magnetic charging

01:00:58   or is it just also a USB-C kind of thing?

01:01:02   - And the iPad Pro gets MagSafe for charging.

01:01:05   - Yeah.

01:01:06   I don't think that one's gonna happen.

01:01:08   - I still do, but I think it's not MagSafe

01:01:10   as we think of it.

01:01:11   - Like it could even be Mac MagSafe or something else.

01:01:15   I mean, they already have two MagSafes.

01:01:18   Why not have another one?

01:01:19   - Why not more MagSafes?

01:01:20   - Why not just keep doing it?

01:01:22   Do they say that the Apple Watch charges via MagSafe?

01:01:26   - Uh, no. - I don't think they do.

01:01:28   I don't think they do.

01:01:29   - No.

01:01:30   - Yeah. - No, they don't.

01:01:31   - That would be funny, though.

01:01:33   I'm feeling confident about mine.

01:01:35   I think that you're being too harsh on yours.

01:01:38   I still think there's a lot of stuff in here

01:01:40   which will happen, but I feel better about my picks

01:01:45   than your feeling about yours, I think.

01:01:47   - Yes, I feel better about your picks

01:01:49   than I'm feeling about mine.

01:01:50   - Maybe that's why I'm champion.

01:01:51   - I think so.

01:01:53   Confidence. - Maybe that's why.

01:01:55   - And also not making bad picks, those two things.

01:01:57   - To be champion, you have to make good picks.

01:02:00   - Yeah, my advice to people who are playing drafts,

01:02:02   make better picks.

01:02:03   - Yeah, really good.

01:02:06   - Make good picks and you win.

01:02:07   Yeah, make dumb picks and you will not win.

01:02:10   That's just how it goes.

01:02:11   - I have a story for you, Jason Snow.

01:02:13   - Okay.

01:02:14   - Something that happened to me over the weekend.

01:02:17   - It's gonna be one of those good stories, right?

01:02:18   Really happy story, like affirming, life affirming.

01:02:21   - Don't think so.

01:02:23   It's an interesting story.

01:02:24   So on Friday, reports started appearing,

01:02:28   and I've got a link here for 9to5Mac,

01:02:31   of people having their Apple IDs locked randomly

01:02:35   and that password changes were required to unlock

01:02:40   their Apple ID.

01:02:42   And as of recording, so this happened on Friday,

01:02:45   as of recording on Monday, there has been no clarity

01:02:48   over why this happened.

01:02:50   And it seemed like it was relatively widespread.

01:02:55   I have a few friends that I know this happened to,

01:02:58   and there was a lot of reports of it

01:03:00   that are in somebody's art course.

01:03:02   I was away this weekend.

01:03:05   I went to the Lake District with our friend,

01:03:08   underscore David Smith.

01:03:09   We did some hiking.

01:03:10   It was a wonderful trip.

01:03:11   - I love the Lake District.

01:03:13   - I had a notification on my Apple Watch

01:03:15   at 6.15 in the morning on Friday to enter my password.

01:03:20   So I was gonna be waking up at seven,

01:03:22   so it was a little early, but I felt a tap.

01:03:24   You know, I was like, I guess I was kinda starting to rise.

01:03:27   I felt a tap.

01:03:28   And it said, enter your password for your Apple ID,

01:03:31   which I thought was very peculiar,

01:03:33   but I was still slightly asleep,

01:03:36   and I managed to type it in on my Apple Watch.

01:03:39   No problem, you know?

01:03:41   Type, type, type, type, type, enter.

01:03:44   Your Apple ID has been locked.

01:03:46   Now that was odd, I will say.

01:03:49   And the reason I did this is 'cause the hotel that I was in,

01:03:52   it did not have, I hate when this happens,

01:03:54   they did not have plug sockets next to the bed.

01:03:58   So my phone was charging over on a little desk.

01:04:03   So that was why I didn't grab my phone

01:04:05   to type in my password, right?

01:04:07   So I get up and go grab my phone, grab my phone,

01:04:11   and it says your Apple ID has been locked.

01:04:13   Unlock your Apple ID.

01:04:15   So I tap whatever button to put in my password,

01:04:18   and it says, oh, sir, no, no, no.

01:04:21   Stolen device protection,

01:04:22   because I'm not at home, kicks in,

01:04:25   to tell me, you know, for the safety of my device

01:04:29   and my Apple ID, I will need to wait an hour now.

01:04:33   Now, the key thing here is,

01:04:36   I think this is happening just to me at this point.

01:04:39   I don't know, I didn't see the reports, I was sleeping.

01:04:42   I didn't know that this was like a widespread thing

01:04:45   that was happening.

01:04:47   And so I'm thinking I'm being hacked, right,

01:04:50   is what's happening to me.

01:04:51   Someone's trying to get into my Apple ID,

01:04:53   and I don't know what is going on.

01:04:55   And now I'm like, wait an hour.

01:04:57   And at the same time, I'm starting to get tons

01:05:00   of notifications on my watch of things not working, right?

01:05:03   Like, it's just freaking out.

01:05:04   Like, iMessage, all this kind of stuff is going on.

01:05:07   I grab my laptop, all the same errors, right?

01:05:10   Like, iMessage isn't working,

01:05:13   I'm getting errors from my email app,

01:05:16   errors from my calendar,

01:05:17   all of the stuff that's attached to my Apple ID.

01:05:19   But, and I'm also getting the same, like, you know,

01:05:23   your Apple ID has been locked,

01:05:24   unlock your Apple ID thing there.

01:05:27   And because stolen device protection is not on the Mac,

01:05:31   I was able to do this, right?

01:05:33   I was able to go in, reset my Apple ID,

01:05:36   and I had to change my password,

01:05:37   which is not a thing I wanted to do at that point.

01:05:40   So I now have a brand new Apple ID password,

01:05:43   and I didn't have to wait on the device.

01:05:45   This then fixed all the device prompts, right?

01:05:48   So that it stopped then.

01:05:49   And it actually fixed it on my iPhone.

01:05:51   I don't know how this was the case, but it did.

01:05:53   It stopped it.

01:05:54   I guess they're linking together somehow.

01:05:56   And I did, by the way, get like 45 minutes later,

01:06:00   a thing that says, hey, you can change your password now

01:06:02   on my iPhone, but I'd already done it, so I didn't need to.

01:06:05   This then had a couple of knock-on effects.

01:06:09   So some applications like calendar apps, mail apps,

01:06:12   stuff like that, they require app-specific passwords.

01:06:16   And so all of my devices, so two Macs, my iPhone, my iPad,

01:06:21   whatever, they're logged into FantasticOwl and Spark

01:06:23   via this app-specific password thing,

01:06:25   which by the way, Apple, sort that out,

01:06:28   however you have to do it.

01:06:29   I don't care, just find a way to do it.

01:06:31   Like none of my other services need this thing.

01:06:34   You can just log in via some authentication system

01:06:37   or create some kind of version of like a system level thing

01:06:42   that they can take that information from or whatever.

01:06:44   But like, I don't know why I need to do this.

01:06:46   Well, all of those app-specific passwords

01:06:49   have now been deleted because I changed my Apple ID password,

01:06:54   a thing I didn't want to do.

01:06:57   So now all of my devices are not working

01:07:02   with the things that require app-specific passwords.

01:07:05   So like a lot of this stuff,

01:07:06   there are a couple other things too

01:07:07   that I'll mention in a minute.

01:07:09   I hate the kind of errors where there are knock-on effects

01:07:13   that you can't see yet.

01:07:15   I know that there are things that are broken.

01:07:17   I don't know what's broken, but there's stuff that's broken.

01:07:20   Like similarly, I didn't know,

01:07:22   I saw this happen to our friend, James Thompson,

01:07:24   he was posting about it on Mastodon,

01:07:26   saying that if this happened to you,

01:07:28   you have to go in on your devices

01:07:30   and manually re-enable iMessage and FaceTime,

01:07:33   because for some reason this turns them off

01:07:36   and also changes your settings.

01:07:38   So if you're like start new messages

01:07:40   from email or phone number,

01:07:41   it just reverts that to phone number, I think.

01:07:44   But like all my devices were like signed out of iMessage,

01:07:46   so I had to go in and sign them all in.

01:07:48   And so I'm also like,

01:07:51   I couldn't see fitness sharing on my Apple Watch

01:07:54   until I rebooted my Apple Watch.

01:07:55   Like there's all this weird stuff that's now happening.

01:07:58   And I'm very frustrated about it all.

01:08:01   But this was just a very weird thing that happened to me

01:08:04   because it all like kicked off and was made worse

01:08:08   by the fact that I happened to be traveling.

01:08:10   So someone device protection, I think it's a good idea,

01:08:13   unless something happens on Apple's Apple ID servers

01:08:17   randomly and makes you reset your password.

01:08:20   And as I mentioned before, no idea what happened.

01:08:23   Was this a security breach?

01:08:25   Was there some kind of a code deployment issue?

01:08:29   Like unknown, but this is what happened to me

01:08:32   at 6.20 AM on a Saturday morning.

01:08:35   - I think it's interesting that Apple,

01:08:37   like it's not great that Apple has not communicated

01:08:39   to people about this as of this recording.

01:08:42   Like that's a thing where you should have a communication

01:08:45   either via the press or via a direct email

01:08:49   or something to customers who are affected.

01:08:52   I don't need them to contact me directly, really.

01:08:55   Like I think it would be best,

01:08:56   but like it's just surprising to me

01:08:58   that they haven't responded to media inquiries,

01:09:01   it seems like.

01:09:02   - Right, and the status page doesn't say we had this issue.

01:09:05   Now I have one theory about this,

01:09:06   which is this could be a security measure, right?

01:09:09   They could have had an ongoing or an alert

01:09:12   about some sort of a security problem that caused a,

01:09:17   you know, basically led them to do a mass reset,

01:09:21   a mass locking of-

01:09:21   - I feel like if you do that,

01:09:23   you should disclose that, right?

01:09:25   Like that's the thing that you would proactively disclose.

01:09:29   - Yeah, yeah.

01:09:30   I mean, again, I could see the argument of like,

01:09:32   if it's an ongoing issue where they're concerned

01:09:34   about something that's still happening

01:09:36   and they don't want, you know,

01:09:37   but once people are talking about it,

01:09:39   it's not like that you could give away what's going on

01:09:43   necessarily by just admitting that there's an issue there.

01:09:45   But the fact that they aren't talking about it at all,

01:09:47   I find that very strange.

01:09:49   And it makes me uncomfortable, right?

01:09:52   Because it actually suggests that maybe

01:09:54   this is a larger problem

01:09:56   that they don't want to admit to right now,

01:09:59   or that they don't understand right now,

01:10:01   where there were some, you know,

01:10:02   some ingress that they don't fully understand

01:10:06   and that this was just like a quick response to that.

01:10:09   But whatever it is,

01:10:10   there should be some disclosure that hasn't happened.

01:10:12   It's too bad.

01:10:13   - So yeah, that's my little story.

01:10:15   It was very strange, very weird.

01:10:17   I was very freaked out and I felt much better

01:10:20   when I'm in a Mastodon and just saw the timeline

01:10:22   of people happening.

01:10:23   And then I told my wife and she was like,

01:10:26   "Oh, so that's why the Apple TV was freaking out last night."

01:10:28   I was like, "Yup, that's why the Apple TV is freaking out."

01:10:31   - Makes sense, makes sense.

01:10:32   - That happened to her too.

01:10:33   She had to do the whole thing that I had to do as well.

01:10:36   So I don't know. - I'm glad

01:10:38   that you got your hiking time in the Lake District,

01:10:40   which is a beautiful place.

01:10:42   I've been to a couple of times, it's great.

01:10:45   And although, did Dave take it easy on you?

01:10:50   - He did, he did.

01:10:51   I'll have more details about this in Upgrade Plus.

01:10:53   He did mention to me, which is good,

01:10:54   let's just be happy that this didn't happen

01:10:56   while we were up a mountain.

01:10:58   - Yeah. - With one bar of reception.

01:11:00   - With one, yeah, mm-hmm.

01:11:01   All right, that's good.

01:11:02   Well, we'll talk about it in Upgrade Plus a little bit.

01:11:04   'Cause I'm going to Scotland.

01:11:06   - I know you are. - And to islands

01:11:08   where you've got to hike around.

01:11:10   I should probably ask Dave for advice.

01:11:11   - You should ask him, he'll have recommendations for you.

01:11:13   I know that. - Awesome.

01:11:14   I will do that then.

01:11:16   - All right, well, this sucks.

01:11:18   And on top of that,

01:11:20   the fact that Apple hasn't explained anything about it,

01:11:22   that's bad.

01:11:23   - 'Cause yeah, I mean, these things happen

01:11:25   when it's like one person,

01:11:26   weird stuff happens to one person.

01:11:28   This wasn't one of those. - Sure.

01:11:29   We have a mutual friend who is locked out of his account

01:11:34   all the time. - All the time, yeah.

01:11:35   'Cause someone wants it.

01:11:36   - Yeah. - Probably.

01:11:37   Or something else, he's being grief or whatever.

01:11:39   But like, yeah, these things happen,

01:11:41   but I don't think this was that.

01:11:43   - No.

01:11:44   - This episode is brought to you by Vitally.

01:11:47   Customer success teams today, they're facing a problem.

01:11:49   How do they connect customer data back to their work?

01:11:52   Vitally changes this.

01:11:53   It is a new kind of customer success platform,

01:11:56   an all-in-one collaborative workspace

01:11:58   that combines your customer data

01:12:00   with all the capabilities you'd expect

01:12:02   from today's project management work platforms.

01:12:05   Because Vitally is designed

01:12:06   for today's customer success team,

01:12:08   that is why it operates with unparalleled efficiency,

01:12:11   improves net revenue retention, delivers best-in-class

01:12:14   customer experiences.

01:12:16   Vitally is the solution to helping your customer success team

01:12:19   keep a better pulse on your customers,

01:12:21   maximizing productivity, visibility, and collaboration.

01:12:24   With Vitally, you can boost your bottom line

01:12:26   by driving more revenue per customer.

01:12:29   And if you take a qualified demo of Vitally,

01:12:31   you can get yourself a free pair of AirPods Pro.

01:12:33   So if you're a customer success decision maker

01:12:36   actively seeking CS solutions,

01:12:37   working at a B2B, software as a service company

01:12:40   with 50 to 1,000 employees,

01:12:42   and you're willing to explore

01:12:43   changing customer success platforms

01:12:45   if you have one in place already,

01:12:46   schedule your call today by visiting vitally.io/upgrade

01:12:50   and get that free pair of AirPods Pro.

01:12:53   That is V-I-T-A-L-L-Y.io, vitally.io/upgrade

01:12:58   for a free pair of AirPods Pro

01:12:59   when you schedule a qualified meeting.

01:13:01   Our thanks to Vitally for their support of this show

01:13:04   and Relay FM.

01:13:05   Let's finish out today with some Ask Upgrade questions.

01:13:09   (mimics air whooshing)

01:13:11   First up today comes from Janis who asks,

01:13:15   "In what area or with what tasks

01:13:17   "would you like AI to help you the most?"

01:13:21   - Whoa.

01:13:22   Oh, wow.

01:13:25   Like, okay, couple of things.

01:13:27   One is I wanna have a voice assistant

01:13:29   that understands context better, is able to do things,

01:13:34   is able to remember what we're talking about

01:13:37   and allows me to correct it

01:13:40   and move it in the right direction.

01:13:42   I think voice assistance is a very clever category

01:13:46   that has never lived up in any voice assistant

01:13:49   to its potential.

01:13:51   I would like to be able to say something complex

01:13:54   to a voice assistant and have it ask me questions

01:13:57   that clarify things it doesn't understand about what I said.

01:14:01   And that just doesn't happen.

01:14:03   So that would be one of them.

01:14:05   And then the other thing is something

01:14:07   that we've talked about here, which is this idea that,

01:14:10   I use the example of Dan Morin looking up facts

01:14:17   about things that happen in his books.

01:14:18   And he's got four books, four or five books

01:14:21   set in the same world.

01:14:23   And he doesn't remember,

01:14:25   I mean, when I've written novels, it's the same thing.

01:14:28   I don't remember every detail about every character

01:14:31   across even one book, let alone five books.

01:14:34   And being able to pour that into an AI

01:14:38   where it has read your books and knows them all

01:14:41   and can hold it in its mind.

01:14:42   So that if you say,

01:14:44   did I ever say what hair color this person was?

01:14:47   Or when did this last person fire a weapon?

01:14:52   And it's something that you can't really search the text for

01:14:55   'cause there's so many different ways of phrasing that,

01:14:58   but the AI can do that.

01:15:00   Being able to look at my email repository

01:15:04   and give me an answer

01:15:06   so I don't have to try to craft search queries.

01:15:08   And I'm pretty good at crafting search queries,

01:15:11   but I think that I'm an outlier at that.

01:15:15   I'm in the 99th percentile of search query crafting,

01:15:18   and even I get frustrated.

01:15:20   But people who are in the 50th percentile

01:15:22   or the 20th percentile,

01:15:23   imagine the boon to them of saying,

01:15:26   when was the last time I heard from so-and-so?

01:15:28   Or say, I got a text from a friend this weekend

01:15:31   who said it's been 10 years

01:15:33   since we went to a Premier League soccer match.

01:15:37   I can't believe it's been 10 years since that.

01:15:39   It was 2014, but it was great.

01:15:41   It was Fulham and Hull.

01:15:43   Hull was in the Premier League back then, or not now.

01:15:45   And I had that moment where I thought,

01:15:48   this is the sort of thing where you could ask an assistant,

01:15:51   like, when did I go to that soccer match?

01:15:54   And it would be able to look at my text messages,

01:15:56   my emails, and my photo library,

01:15:58   and be like, oh, I've got a photo library item

01:16:01   that was taken at Craven Cottage, the home of Fulham.

01:16:05   It's on this date.

01:16:06   And it might even be able to say,

01:16:08   oh yeah, you went with Matt and Simon to that match.

01:16:10   And it was, here's the final score.

01:16:12   Or I could ask at the final score.

01:16:14   It's all there, but I wanna be able to have it do that work,

01:16:19   researching my own data trove.

01:16:22   I could do it, but why?

01:16:26   The computer should do that for me.

01:16:28   - I'm in complete agreement with you.

01:16:30   And to further talk about what I would want,

01:16:32   I'm gonna go to Eric's question.

01:16:34   Eric, Eric asked, for the new AI features

01:16:37   coming out of the next WWDC,

01:16:39   do you think they'll call it Knowledge Navigator?

01:16:42   I don't, but if you've not,

01:16:45   if you don't know what that means,

01:16:46   or if you have not watched

01:16:48   the Apple Knowledge Navigator video in a while from 1987,

01:16:53   I recommend you do that,

01:16:55   because while this video is kind of hilarious

01:17:00   and incredibly pompous, but I guess it was made in 1987.

01:17:04   It's just like, is what it is.

01:17:06   - By a bunch of white lab coat computer geniuses

01:17:08   who thought that they, I mean, it's one of those.

01:17:10   - This was a, the Knowledge Navigator was a concept idea

01:17:14   that Apple was working out during,

01:17:17   working out during the John Sculley era.

01:17:19   And it is essentially like a foldable iPad,

01:17:22   which is also hilarious.

01:17:24   But the key thing that's going on

01:17:26   is the computer user in his Oak office

01:17:30   is just talking to the computer,

01:17:32   having a conversation with his computer

01:17:36   and asking the computer to retrieve things for him

01:17:38   in very colloquial language, simple language,

01:17:41   like talking to it as if it's a person,

01:17:44   and asking for the computer to do things for him.

01:17:47   Like, since 1987, people have wanted to do this,

01:17:53   and we've not gotten there.

01:17:55   But I believe that large language models are the biggest,

01:17:59   I mean, obviously not unloading this,

01:18:01   but watching this, large language models

01:18:02   are the biggest thing to have happened

01:18:05   that could possibly allow for something like this.

01:18:07   Like a computer's ability to store

01:18:10   an incredible amount of information

01:18:12   and make sense of it all in one go

01:18:14   and keep contacts and have memory.

01:18:16   Like this is something we've not truly had before.

01:18:19   Maybe we're getting closer now,

01:18:21   but I would like some version of this,

01:18:23   that I could have a conversation with my computer

01:18:27   in a way that makes sense in my brain

01:18:30   to be able to extract information.

01:18:32   But like what Jason was saying,

01:18:34   mostly I want it for my own information.

01:18:37   Like anything, anywhere on my computer

01:18:40   to be able to get that for me.

01:18:42   And it doesn't need to be like screen capturing my computer

01:18:45   forever and recording all the video.

01:18:47   Like I don't need that.

01:18:48   But like to be able to, at a moment's note,

01:18:51   just be able to search every task I've ever completed,

01:18:53   every email I've ever sent,

01:18:54   every iMessage I've ever sent,

01:18:56   to check my browser history.

01:18:57   Like all of this stuff that exists on my computer

01:19:00   that is searchable by text by me,

01:19:02   but I have to know where to look

01:19:04   for it to be able to search all of that stuff

01:19:06   and provide that information for me,

01:19:08   along with web searches.

01:19:11   Like that's what I want my computer to be able to do.

01:19:13   I want a knowledge navigator

01:19:15   and I'm hoping that maybe we're going to start getting that

01:19:18   in the next couple of years.

01:19:19   So I've got a weird related thing,

01:19:23   which is just this weekend,

01:19:24   I was having a conversation with John Moltz

01:19:28   about Star Trek as you do.

01:19:34   And John has a T-shirt for sale

01:19:39   that I guess I'll plug here.

01:19:41   So it's a reference to a Star Trek episode

01:19:43   called "The Conscience of the King," original Star Trek.

01:19:45   It's a great episode.

01:19:47   Turns out it was not like they didn't repeat it on NBC

01:19:50   because it's too talky.

01:19:51   That's 'cause it's like, yeah,

01:19:52   it's serious and weighty and not actiony,

01:19:56   but it's a great episode.

01:19:57   And one of the things that happens in it,

01:20:01   I was just struck by it again.

01:20:03   So you said we've been wanting this since the 80s,

01:20:06   how about the 60s?

01:20:07   So here is, there are multiple of these in this episode

01:20:11   and there are in other episodes too,

01:20:12   but I thought this was a great example

01:20:14   where Spock goes to the computer and says,

01:20:17   "Library computer."

01:20:19   Kevin Kirk says, "History file, subject,

01:20:21   former governor Kodos of Tarsus IV,

01:20:23   also known as Kodos the Executioner.

01:20:24   After that, background on actor Anton Kuridian."

01:20:27   And the computer says, "Working, Kodos the Executioner,

01:20:30   summary, governor of Tarsus IV 20 Earth years ago,

01:20:33   invoke Marshall," starts to give the summary.

01:20:35   Literally it's the TLDR.

01:20:37   And then it says, "Case closed,

01:20:39   detailed information follows on star date."

01:20:41   And he goes, "Stop."

01:20:43   Information on Anton Kuridian, gives the background on him.

01:20:46   And then says, "Give comparative identification

01:20:49   between actor Kuridian and governor Kodos.

01:20:51   No identification records available."

01:20:53   The computer says, "Give information on Kuridian

01:20:56   prior to Kodos' death.

01:20:58   No information available on the actor prior to 20 years ago."

01:21:02   And then Kirk says, "Photograph of Kodos."

01:21:04   And then it says, "Photograph of Kuridian."

01:21:05   He says, "Put them side by side."

01:21:07   And it does it.

01:21:08   And it's like, dun, dun, dun, they're the same guy, right?

01:21:12   And I was sitting there thinking, oh my God,

01:21:14   we are still talking about letting computers do this.

01:21:17   Star Trek got it exactly right, which is, you know,

01:21:20   he could be using, Captain Kirk could have his like,

01:21:22   his mouse and his keyboard out.

01:21:23   And he could be like, do do do do, we'll click on that.

01:21:26   And if he needs help, he can get a second person

01:21:28   to type with him on the keyboard.

01:21:29   'Cause that's what makes that,

01:21:30   that goes faster according to television.

01:21:32   But no, he just talks to the computer

01:21:34   and has it refine its searches.

01:21:36   And it's searching the Interstellar Federation Database

01:21:39   or whatever.

01:21:40   And it's like, so I love that because it's still the dream.

01:21:44   And it should be doable, right?

01:21:47   It's just, how do you get there?

01:21:49   And I think actually, one of the reasons

01:21:51   people are super excited about these LLMs is this,

01:21:55   which is it actually fulfills a promise,

01:21:58   which is give me a system that is not smarter than me

01:22:01   in most ways, but is smarter than me in the fact

01:22:05   that it can hold all of this information in its brain

01:22:08   or find it if it needs to, and then give me back my answer

01:22:12   without me spending five or 10 or 20 or 30 minutes

01:22:15   doing all the research.

01:22:17   And it's just, that's what we're looking for here.

01:22:21   And it just struck me watching an episode of Star Trek

01:22:23   from like 1966, that this is absolutely the dream,

01:22:28   even now, that's literally they're talking to Siri

01:22:31   and Siri is in this case, good.

01:22:33   - So that's what I would love.

01:22:36   That's what we would love.

01:22:37   Give us the things we've wanted forever.

01:22:38   Let's navigate our knowledge.

01:22:40   - You didn't think original Star Trek was gonna happen,

01:22:42   did you?

01:22:43   - I think I'm in no way.

01:22:44   - I mean, it's me, there's always a non-zero chance of it.

01:22:47   - I never don't think it's, when it happens,

01:22:49   I'm not like, whoa, what, Star Trek?

01:22:51   No, I'm always ready.

01:22:53   - Yeah, it's not the Spanish Inquisition.

01:22:55   I mean, you kind of expect it before it gets here, yeah.

01:22:59   - And Nick asks, do you think the new iPad Pro

01:23:01   will feature a titanium design like the iPhone 15 Pro?

01:23:07   - No.

01:23:08   - I hadn't considered it, but I see it as possible.

01:23:11   - I don't think so because I think they're gonna do

01:23:13   aluminum laptop look and the keyboard has to match it.

01:23:18   - Yeah, that's a good point.

01:23:20   You wouldn't want to do a titanium keyboard probably.

01:23:21   But I mean, I hadn't considered this.

01:23:24   It's an interesting thought, but you're right.

01:23:27   It's maybe gonna lean more towards MacBook Pro

01:23:30   than iPhone Pro.

01:23:31   If you would like to send in a question

01:23:34   for a future episode, very easy to do so.

01:23:37   Go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:23:40   You can check out Jason's work at sixcolors.com.

01:23:43   You can hear him here on Relay FM

01:23:44   and at the incomparable.com.

01:23:46   You'll hear my shows here on Relay FM as well.

01:23:48   You can check out my other work at cortexbrand.com.

01:23:51   Jason is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.

01:23:54   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:23:57   We mentioned it at the top of the show,

01:23:58   but you can always watch video episodes or video clips.

01:24:01   We're on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube.

01:24:03   We're @upgraderelay.

01:24:05   Please go and check out our limited edition,

01:24:08   limited time merchandise over upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

01:24:13   Are you a professional?

01:24:14   Are you a colors-arrian?

01:24:18   - Yeah, just a regular old colorful t-shirt wear.

01:24:22   Non-professional, yeah.

01:24:23   - Go and check it out, upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

01:24:26   Thank you to our members who support us of Upgrade Plus,

01:24:28   and thank you to our sponsors too,

01:24:30   Vitale, Squarespace, and SaneBox.

01:24:32   We'll be back next week with our post-game analysis

01:24:36   of Apple's iPad announcements.

01:24:38   - Yes, sometime on Tuesday, to be determined,

01:24:41   but we will get there post-game on Tuesday.

01:24:44   Is it a game?

01:24:45   Maybe, who knows?

01:24:46   And all will be revealed then.

01:24:48   - But if for any reason,

01:24:49   it's not whenever you might expect it to be,

01:24:52   we'll let people know in Discord and on Mastodon.

01:24:55   There will be an episode next week, you can rest assured.

01:24:59   - Unusual time, probably.

01:25:01   For those in America, my guess is it'll be Tuesday night

01:25:05   sometime by the time you get it,

01:25:06   which is instead of Monday afternoon, little late,

01:25:09   but you know, what are we gonna do?

01:25:11   There's an Apple event.

01:25:12   You gotta wait, and then you gotta talk about it afterward,

01:25:14   and we will.

01:25:15   - Thanks so much for listening

01:25:16   to this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:25:18   We'll be back next week.

01:25:19   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:25:21   - Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

01:25:22   (upbeat music)

01:25:25   (upbeat music)

01:25:27   (upbeat music)