513: I Do Not Rock Anything


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 513.

00:00:14   Today's show is brought to you by Delete.me, Ooni Pizza Ovens, and Wild Grain.

00:00:20   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason!

00:00:24   Hi, Mike. We're halfway to 1024.

00:00:26   Just passed the 512 mark on our way up to 1024.

00:00:30   Off we go. Now I'm back. I was away last week.

00:00:33   Thank you very much to Steven and Federico for filling in for me.

00:00:36   You know how much joy it gave me that you mentioned multiple times

00:00:39   that it took both of them to replace me. So thank you for that present.

00:00:42   Two hosts in a trench coat. Yeah, exactly.

00:00:44   Well, originally the idea was episode 512. We're going to have Steven fill in for you.

00:00:49   He could talk to me about my iPad review.

00:00:52   And then I discovered over the weekend that one, Federico had written a very long article

00:00:57   about iPad failings, and two, he didn't get one to review in time.

00:01:03   So I proceeded under the assumption that, although I thought Federico would be the perfect guest for that episode,

00:01:09   because he's got his own stuff and he would be prepping under the same embargo as me and all of that,

00:01:14   that there was no point in even trying to get him on podcast. He would be just too busy to do it.

00:01:21   But then I discovered over the weekend that that wasn't the case.

00:01:24   And so it was so good to be able to get him on for a little bit in there.

00:01:27   I was up real early because he's way out there in Italy.

00:01:32   And then Steven as well. So yeah, it was fun.

00:01:35   Yeah, it was a good time. And I liked that you had both.

00:01:39   And I think it was good for the show to have Federico on and to do all of that.

00:01:43   Before we begin today, I would like to, before we fully begin today,

00:01:47   I would like to invite our listeners to look at their podcast app,

00:01:50   because we have refreshed the artwork for Upgrade.

00:01:54   So we tasked our designer here at Real AFM, JD Davis, to take the old Upgrade art,

00:02:01   the existing Upgrade art, and just give it a fresh coat of paint.

00:02:05   We did not want to rebrand the show in any way. We're very happy with it,

00:02:09   but we wanted to give it more of a new feel.

00:02:12   So we have both for Upgrade and for Upgrade Plus, we now have more consistent branding between the two as well.

00:02:19   Upgrade is in, I guess, silver or space grey, and Upgrade Plus is in space black, I guess.

00:02:27   Or midnight, or I don't know.

00:02:29   Yeah, something like that. And the artwork looks more like an actual button,

00:02:32   which is like a power button, because that's what the logo is.

00:02:36   And we've got a nice little glow going on too. So they're both new.

00:02:40   It's available now for you to look at. And I don't know, it's more of a refresh.

00:02:45   I think we both felt this, that Upgrade maybe felt like one of the older, it was one of the older shows on the network.

00:02:53   So the logo was untouched for 512 episodes.

00:02:56   Correct.

00:02:57   Untouched.

00:02:57   Absolutely zero had changed, and it was maybe time for a refresh.

00:03:04   And so we'd done that, and I'm really happy.

00:03:05   Right. But we also didn't want to change it. I mean, we talked about it.

00:03:09   We actually are very happy with the idea of the circle with the button and the arrow and the whole thing.

00:03:15   And so that was the real challenge in working with JD, is like, JD, change it, but don't change it.

00:03:20   And so I just think it looks nicer.

00:03:23   And we had a, there was a really subtle pattern on the background.

00:03:27   It's like a pinstripe.

00:03:29   And it didn't really work. It didn't really resolve.

00:03:31   And when it did resolve, sometimes it seemed more like a weird error.

00:03:37   So it's like, this is better. It's just cleaner and better and nice.

00:03:39   And it makes reference to Apple's various metal non-colors, which is, delights me.

00:03:46   Yeah. So it's really good stuff.

00:03:47   Thank you, JD, for the amazing work on this one.

00:03:50   And I hope that you all enjoy our refreshed artwork as we barrel towards episode 1024.

00:03:59   Indeed.

00:04:00   We have a Snow Talk question to fully start, officially start this week's episode.

00:04:06   It comes from Daniel who says, Jason, I couldn't help but notice you casually dropping an Old Man River reference last week

00:04:13   and talking about the iPad Pro, which was Tote That Barge, Lift That Bail.

00:04:17   Jason, what is your favorite musical?

00:04:19   OK, well, it's not Showboat.

00:04:21   And in fact, I was just thinking Tote That Barge, Lift That Bail, and like entered the lexicon.

00:04:26   So I wasn't actually intentionally making a reference to Rodgers and Hammerstein.

00:04:30   Although I think technically my official answer for what my favorite musical is is The King and I.

00:04:36   So Rodgers and Hammerstein, but a different one.

00:04:39   It was my mother's favorite musical, my favorite, my mom's favorite movie, maybe.

00:04:44   And I have seen it in twice, including once with Jule Brenner when he was sort of returned to the role when I was a kid.

00:04:51   We went and saw it, went down to San Francisco to see it.

00:04:54   And it's sweet. It's very sad at the end. The King dies.

00:04:57   It's very sad.

00:04:57   Spoilers.

00:04:59   Yeah, I know.

00:05:00   Well, you know, spoilers for a musical from the 50s.

00:05:03   And are there are there some thematic issues with with The King and I?

00:05:08   Yeah. Yeah, there are.

00:05:09   But I have a great fondness for it in terms of like a modern I don't know.

00:05:15   I mean, Hamilton's the easy answer.

00:05:16   I love Hamilton.

00:05:17   It's still doing it for me.

00:05:19   I still think it's great.

00:05:20   But but my classic answer is The King and I.

00:05:24   Thank you very much for that answer, Jason.

00:05:27   I seem to say Hamilton, to be honest. It's mine too.

00:05:30   I know I did a whole episode on Corner in the Sky, Queen Rose's podcast about musicals on the incomparable.

00:05:36   I did a whole episode with her about The King and I.

00:05:39   So I'll put that in the show notes.

00:05:40   That if they want. Yeah, I will find it and put it in the show notes.

00:05:43   Sure, I'll find it for you.

00:05:45   Even better. Thank you so much.

00:05:47   Why doesn't everybody find it and also put it in the show notes if you don't mind.

00:05:51   Thank you so much to Daniel for sending in that question.

00:05:54   If you would like to send in a snow tall question of your own, we need to do is go to upgradefeedback.com, send one in.

00:06:01   Some follow up.

00:06:03   So first comes from Scott who says, on the last episode, Jason mentioned that he wished that the keyboard backlight brightness for the Magic Keyboard is an option in Control Center.

00:06:13   Well, it is.

00:06:14   It is.

00:06:14   It turns out the people I was talking to at Apple about it didn't even realize that it was there.

00:06:18   Oh, which is funny.

00:06:20   But yes, there it is there.

00:06:22   You can put it there and then you can swipe down from Control Center.

00:06:24   I still think the point remains that you should be able to do it from the keyboard.

00:06:28   I also was told that apparently if you are using it and it's off and you are in a dark place, it comes on.

00:06:38   I don't know if that's true or not, but I was told that.

00:06:40   I have not verified that yet.

00:06:41   I find that kind of amazing if that's true.

00:06:43   So it may be that I just don't notice.

00:06:46   And also it's true that I basically leave it off because I very rarely am using it somewhere where I need the backlighting on.

00:06:52   I generally leave keyboard backlighting off.

00:06:55   But what I do find valuable is if I'm suddenly, I find myself in a place where I need the keyboard backlighting, I would really like to be able to just use the little, I know the argument there is, well, if you can't see the keys, how can you use them?

00:07:06   I know where the keys are, but I would like to see the backlighting on a little keyboard thing.

00:07:10   But yes, you can put it, you can add it to Control Center through the Settings app.

00:07:14   And then you can, I would also argue probably should just sort of be a secondary control under brightness and not its own little button, but you know, whatever it's there and you can add it to Control Center.

00:07:25   Yeah.

00:07:25   And we get, we have some chat room feedback instantly that says, yes, it does turn on in the dark.

00:07:30   So there's that too.

00:07:32   Look at that.

00:07:33   I just want to say numerous podcasts over the last few weeks have acted as if there isn't backlighting on the Magic Keyboard on either one, which is funny because it's always been there.

00:07:46   It's like, I think I said this last week, it's like a Berenstein Bears kind of thing.

00:07:51   It's like a Mandela effect thing where everybody sort of has agreed to pretend that the Magic Keyboard didn't have backlighting, but it's always had backlighting.

00:08:01   Obviously the smart keyboard thing that was just the fabric can't have it, but the Magic Keyboards have backlighting.

00:08:08   Yeah.

00:08:09   It was quite funny actually about the Control Center thing.

00:08:15   I was standing at Spadarico at the event and it was one of the first things he did was check for Control Center to see if there was a button there, which was kind of funny to me.

00:08:24   It is.

00:08:25   I don't know why you don't use a modifier for the lighting brightness controls to have it be the backlighting instead.

00:08:34   I don't know.

00:08:34   But then again, iPadOS kind of broken when it comes to global modifier keys.

00:08:38   Sure, sure, sure, sure.

00:08:39   Maybe that's why.

00:08:40   It makes sense to me in a way that it could detect.

00:08:44   I mean, I'm sure that iPads have brightness sensors like the iPhone does too.

00:08:49   It's how you do True Tone.

00:08:51   So it makes sense that they have the ability to do that.

00:08:54   It's pretty cool.

00:08:54   Isn't it nice?

00:08:55   They've got that wired up even though I've never really...

00:08:57   I got to be honest.

00:08:58   I mostly use the Magic Keyboard outside in my backyard writing or any well-lit room in my house during the day when I'm working.

00:09:07   I'm very rarely working on the iPad at night in the dark.

00:09:11   Like it just doesn't happen that often.

00:09:13   I'm not a secret black site iPad writer.

00:09:20   I'm not that.

00:09:21   So, but it's good to know that it's there.

00:09:23   So there you go.

00:09:26   All right, next, next piece of follow up comes in.

00:09:29   Next follow up.

00:09:29   Next follow up comes in from Paul who says, Jason mentions that he prefers to type on the Magic Keyboard on the 13 inch iPad, but he rocked an 11 inch MacBook for many years.

00:09:42   Was the keyboard on the MacBook not similar in size?

00:09:45   Okay, first off, I do not rock anything.

00:09:48   Only Casey Liss rocks things.

00:09:49   I just use them.

00:09:50   I just wear them.

00:09:51   I don't rock.

00:09:53   I just want to, I'm just filing as a, as a complaint here.

00:09:55   Sorry, Paul, you're the one who has prompted me to do this, but one of those things that I'm against is referring to the utility of anything, utilization of anything as rocking it.

00:10:04   And I can tell you from my own personality, I do not rock anything.

00:10:09   Literally anything in my life.

00:10:11   You rock me like a hurricane, just so you know.

00:10:13   Okay.

00:10:14   I want you to know that.

00:10:15   Great.

00:10:15   Here I am.

00:10:16   Mhm.

00:10:17   Rocking me like a hurricane.

00:10:18   I did use an 11 inch MacBook Air for a long time and it's a full-size keyboard and all the keys are the right size is my, is my recollection.

00:10:27   And there are, there are shrunk down keys on the 11 inch Magic Keyboard.

00:10:33   It's, it's, it's so, okay.

00:10:36   I'm just going to say, Jason in the chat room said, this is the most old man thing I've heard Jason say.

00:10:40   Honestly, using rock to discuss, to refer to things that you're doing.

00:10:44   That's what an old man says.

00:10:46   Every time I hear Casey do it, I'm like, Casey, you're way too old to be saying you rocked a hat.

00:10:51   Don't do it.

00:10:52   Stop it now.

00:10:53   Oh, oh man.

00:10:54   After the show, I'm going to have one of those moments where I have to text Casey and say, Casey, you got to listen to the follow up on upgrade.

00:10:59   Anyway, anyway, you know, he's got a Magic Keyboard, iPad Magic Keyboard.

00:11:03   Some of the keys are like half width and it's squished and it doesn't feel right.

00:11:07   So it is my, my, what I would say is no.

00:11:11   To me, the 11 inch error was the exact width that you could make a computer and still have a regular keyboard.

00:11:18   And the size of the 11 inch iPad is too narrow for that, but I don't have them with me.

00:11:25   So I can't like, I can't verify this, but that's my recollection is that it's just a little bit too small.

00:11:32   And there are some half, the one that bothers, I know John Gruber is driven insane by this is the idea that the left bracket key is full width

00:11:40   and the right bracket key is half width because it is imbalanced.

00:11:45   And, and he, when I saw him in New York, he said to me at one point, why don't you make them both the same width?

00:11:52   It's like, well, cause they don't cause they, you get to the edge.

00:11:56   It's like writing on, it's like John Mulaney thing about writing on a, on a big sign and you start like, wait with the letters way too big.

00:12:02   And then you get toward the end and you're like, oh no, they get to the last key on the keyboard and they're like, oh no, there's no room left.

00:12:09   Well, make it smaller and it's fine.

00:12:12   It's a little like that.

00:12:13   That's funny.

00:12:15   I also wanted to just let our listeners know we have a very small amount of tickets that are still available for our live show in London this coming July to celebrate 10 years of relay FM.

00:12:26   I'm going to be there.

00:12:26   Jason's going to be there along with many other awesome relay FM hosts.

00:12:30   So if you want to come see us online.

00:12:33   Casey may be rocking it along with us.

00:12:36   He'll be rocking, we'll be rocking together at an actual place where rock music is sometimes played at the Hackney Empire.

00:12:43   Uh, so yeah, it's going to be in the 27th of July.

00:12:45   There are still some tickets available if you want to come and celebrate and rock it out in style with us in London.

00:12:51   Yeah, I'll be, I'll be rocking a coin where I'll, I'll and flipping it.

00:12:55   Maybe.

00:12:56   Oh, maybe.

00:12:58   Probably not.

00:12:59   It's time for the B-Tails.

00:13:01   Woo hoo.

00:13:04   Apple has announced a set of accessibility focused features coming in iOS 18.

00:13:10   They have continuing their tradition of announcing these ahead of WWDC on global accessibility awareness day, which is really good because it gives these items a time to shine.

00:13:21   We're not going to get potentially overshadowed by other things and we get to talk about them and people get to write about them and stuff like that, which I think is really great.

00:13:28   Um, and I wanted to just run through some of these features.

00:13:31   I think there's some really cool stuff in here.

00:13:33   Uh, the first up is eye tracking for iPad and iPhone, which uses cameras and sensors to track your eyes and you select things by dwelling on them for a moment.

00:13:43   So it's called dwell control.

00:13:44   So this is a super cool feature.

00:13:46   It uses the cameras and the sensors in the devices to be able to track your eyes.

00:13:51   We spoke about this a while ago and I wondered if it could, they, Apple could do something like this as a way to somehow control a home pod of a screen.

00:13:59   It's like, maybe.

00:14:00   But nevertheless, this is a super cool feature.

00:14:03   And again, most of these things, I think basically all of them, they're somehow machine learning powered.

00:14:09   Yeah.

00:14:09   I was going to say this seems to me that it's probably using similar algorithms, if not the same algorithms that they're using in the vision pro and a vision pro, you know, the sensors are right up next to your eyes.

00:14:19   They've got really clear view in here.

00:14:20   It's a little bit harder, but it does feel like this is kind of, of a kind.

00:14:25   And I would also say I'm getting some strong, if you remember the pointer, the iPad pointer started in the accessibility settings and quite rightly, right?

00:14:35   Like the accessibility.

00:14:37   So here's the thing about accessibility.

00:14:38   Accessibility is important because one, everybody probably is going to need some accessibility.

00:14:45   If they don't now, they will need it eventually.

00:14:47   It's really important to give as many people access in as many different ways to the things that we use to live our lives as possible.

00:14:54   And again, I'll just say, if you're fortunate enough to become an old person and use phrases like I rocked it, you will have motion issues or balance issues or other, I mean, you will, because just getting older, you will use it.

00:15:09   You'll be, yeah, you'll be rocking the accessibility settings.

00:15:12   So it's super important for existing groups, but you will become part of those groups at some point in your life as well.

00:15:19   So you should think about that.

00:15:20   But also I would say sometimes this is one of those things where Apple's got interactions that it's not convinced or ready for the whole world, but know that they have direct applications for people who have, for example, limited mobility issues.

00:15:33   And so they put them in, it's not, what I don't want to say is it's like beta testing it because that's not what it is.

00:15:40   It's more like, we don't think that this feature is maybe something that everybody can use right now, but we know some people who could really use it.

00:15:50   And so they should have it.

00:15:51   But I look at this and I think to myself, wow, yeah, that HomePod with a screen or even just an iPad in your kitchen, being able to do some basic interaction with that with gestures or eye movement without touching it is really interesting for the future.

00:16:09   And this is all, I mean, I read, Shelley Brisbane wrote about this at Six Colors too.

00:16:13   They briefed her about it, which was great.

00:16:16   It is just, I mean, for people with mobility issues to be able to have this extra level of interaction is, it's just really cool.

00:16:26   The idea that you're, I mean, it's like magic a little bit, right?

00:16:28   Which is sort of how I felt about the Vision Pro.

00:16:30   And now here it is in other devices where you're just sort of like willing the device to do what you want.

00:16:35   That's great.

00:16:37   Yeah.

00:16:37   And like we just had the double tap, the Apple Watch double tap, right?

00:16:41   Which was, it started as a motion control thing on the Apple Watch.

00:16:46   And is now available in the shipping product.

00:16:49   It's like a feature that you can assign for different things.

00:16:53   Which is a great feature on the Apple Watch, but I do use it every day to start my walking workouts.

00:16:59   And it's, you know, I get to a certain point in my walk to and from the studio and my Apple Watch hits me like it always does.

00:17:05   And so I just, I don't even need to pull my sleeve down.

00:17:07   I just tap my fingers together and it starts my workout.

00:17:10   So these things can be very useful even if you don't quote unquote need them for any particular reason.

00:17:17   But they, and I think this is actually one of the things that I really like about Apple's approach to accessibility is they sometimes just create features that everyone can take advantage of.

00:17:28   Like dynamic type, for example.

00:17:30   Dynamic type is really helpful if you have vision issues, but it's also just good for the general comfort of whatever you would prefer.

00:17:38   Like for me, I'm able to take use of a dynamic type to have the text size be smaller on my phone.

00:17:45   That's what I like.

00:17:47   So I get more on the screen.

00:17:48   Now I can only do that because dynamic type exists, which is ostensibly an accessibility feature.

00:17:54   Well, and it lets, it lets people set, I mean, the broader way to view some of these settings is it lets people set settings for their ability level, for their capability level.

00:18:03   So in your case, with your eagle vision, you can just crank that text down and it's fine.

00:18:10   And for somebody else, they might like my wife's text is up a notch.

00:18:15   Well, I think she's got reading glasses now, so she doesn't do that so much, but her text all went up a notch so that she could see it more clearly without glasses.

00:18:22   So, I mean, it's great.

00:18:24   I mean, more stuff should be adaptable.

00:18:26   Remember when I did that?

00:18:28   I think this is not entirely true anymore, but when I did that Tesla road trip back in the day for spring break where I borrowed that guy's Tesla and friend of the show, by the way, not just that guy, but I won't mention his name.

00:18:40   Anyway, one of the things that, because Lauren again needs reading glasses that we noticed is there were literally no text size settings in the Tesla UI.

00:18:47   I think you can set a large setting now, but like, how did, how did that product exist for, for five or 10 years without like text adjustments?

00:18:56   Like we, so we take a lot of things for granted in the Apple world, but the things like accessibility settings and, and dynamic text, dynamic type are super important.

00:19:06   So moving on, there is music haptics where the, if you're listening to music in the music app, it will be able to sync to the haptic motor to provide real time vibrations so people can feel the song.

00:19:18   This is particularly helpful for people who have hearing issues.

00:19:22   I remember there was a girl in my class when I was in primary school and at music class, she would put her hand on the speaker of the, of the keyboard.

00:19:30   So she could feel, so she could more better feel in hearing music.

00:19:33   And I was found that fascinating.

00:19:34   It was like a nine year old.

00:19:35   And so they're putting this into the music app.

00:19:38   Vocal shortcuts.

00:19:40   So this will allow you to set a phrase to trigger a shortcut without needing to use a wake word for your voice assistant.

00:19:47   So you can just set a phrase and just say that phrase.

00:19:51   And your phone is also always listening to that phrase, like out for that phrase as well as the other things to invoke Siri.

00:19:59   So this is a cool feature.

00:20:01   This is, this is the first time, right?

00:20:04   That I wonder if this is enabled by that feature where they took it down so you didn't need to say, hey anymore.

00:20:09   You could just say the name and summon the beast.

00:20:13   Yeah.

00:20:13   That you know what this will allow you to do.

00:20:16   You could, for example, have a wake word to talk to chat GPT or something.

00:20:21   Right.

00:20:22   You could, you could.

00:20:24   You could also have a shortcut trigger on a Hoy or a Hoy telephone if you like.

00:20:29   This could be a game changer, right?

00:20:32   Like this is, this is one of those things that could really be a huge difference.

00:20:36   That the ability to arbitrarily set trigger phrases to do things.

00:20:43   That's wild.

00:20:44   So I can't wait to see this in action.

00:20:47   Just be careful with the phrase that you use.

00:20:50   You know what I mean?

00:20:51   Just like set your phone up all the time.

00:20:53   Cause you set the phrase good morning.

00:20:56   Yeah.

00:20:57   I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it.

00:20:59   Wouldn't do that.

00:21:00   Uh, listening for atypical speech.

00:21:02   So using machine learning to, uh, to features to, for a better performance to understand those as speech issues.

00:21:09   So if it's just for a variety, a wide variety of speech issues that to be able to better understand listeners and they use machine on device machine learning models to do that.

00:21:20   Whether it's waiting for more time or allowing for somebody to repeat something, that kind of thing, which I think is really cool.

00:21:25   Um, this one, uh, I immediately sent to my wife.

00:21:29   I imagine a lot of people sent this to somebody in their lives.

00:21:32   It's called vehicle motion cues.

00:21:34   So many people, many people suffer with motion sickness, especially in cars.

00:21:38   My wife is one of these people.

00:21:40   She looks at her phone and while she's in a car for too long or on a train or something, it can make her feel unwell.

00:21:46   So they do this saying, I don't fully understand how this works, but I'm not a scientist.

00:21:50   So I was just trusted.

00:21:52   It does.

00:21:52   Where when you're looking at your phone, there are these moving dots that will like scroll down the side of the screen and they are synced to sensors in your phone to detect movement, which I'm sure are probably the same sensors that they use to detect car crashes, right?

00:22:06   Like it's all that kind of stuff coming together.

00:22:08   Like Apple, I'm sure I've done a lot of work of understanding how vehicles move at this point.

00:22:13   And so it helps calibrate your body to understanding that there is motion when you're looking at a device to alleviate motion sickness.

00:22:23   Incredible.

00:22:24   Incredible.

00:22:26   And again, it's like if this works, like I don't think this is something you would necessarily historically consider as a quote unquote accessibility feature, right?

00:22:35   Yeah.

00:22:36   All sorts of things are accessibility, right?

00:22:38   Like the whole point of accessibility is some people have an issue that causes them to have problems with some aspect of using the device, right?

00:22:46   Fundamentally, that's what it is.

00:22:48   And there's no like gatekeeping or there shouldn't be about like, what are the issues?

00:22:53   What issues matter and what is...

00:22:55   As a colorblind person, I appreciate that there's an accessibility setting for me for my little thing, which is I can use the phone.

00:23:03   You know, I can mostly use it just fine.

00:23:05   But yes, occasionally some device doesn't differentiate via a method other than colors.

00:23:11   And there's a game or something where it says, quick, Jason, this light red and this gray and this light green differentiate between them.

00:23:21   And I'm completely unable to do that.

00:23:22   So like, they're all...

00:23:24   It comes in all shapes and sizes.

00:23:26   So really great work.

00:23:27   I'm happy that they've put this out again.

00:23:29   And I continue to be incredibly impressed by the amount of stuff that they do every year that is new for accessibility.

00:23:38   Like, it's not just...

00:23:40   There's also enhancements for CarPlay and VisionOS to bring those platforms closer up to par with iOS and everything that it has.

00:23:48   But to be able to come up with these five big features along with, again, like at the bottom of the press release, there's another laundry list of smaller things that they've done too.

00:23:58   Like, it's very impressive to me that they're able to continue pushing it in this direction.

00:24:02   I think it's very, very cool.

00:24:05   Yeah, it's awesome.

00:24:06   And I love that they give us a preview of essentially the next version of the OS before WWDC as a teaser in order to...

00:24:15   I mean, I'm sure there was somebody who made the argument a few years ago inside Apple that was like, you know, these are accessibility features.

00:24:22   We're only a few weeks away from WWDC.

00:24:24   We know what they're going to be.

00:24:26   Why would we not take advantage of it to get another news moment and talk about our accessibility story rather than having it be totally swamped by the conference?

00:24:39   And super smart, and I'm glad that person won that argument.

00:24:42   This episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Delete.Me.

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00:27:16   It is time to saddle up for a Rumour Roundup, Jason Snow.

00:27:21   Yee-haw!

00:27:22   There's a bunch of stuff today in a variety of little containers.

00:27:26   We're going to start by talking about some AI iOS 18 related rumours and news that's been going on over the last couple of weeks.

00:27:34   This is all from Mark Gurman in some form.

00:27:38   The Sheriff is back reporting that Apple will be using chips of its own making and design for powering their data centres for AI features in iOS 18.

00:27:49   Apparently the M2 Ultra will be the first chips used in these data centres.

00:27:54   Mark Gurman expects that image and text generation, along with lengthy summaries, may need to be performed on these servers with more simple tasks being done on device.

00:28:03   He also references how this is Apple's playbook for this kind of stuff, where they have things on their own data centres at first and then they maybe spread them out a little bit so they have the one different cloud services.

00:28:14   I think they use Azure and AWS for some iCloud stuff and he expects that that might be the future.

00:28:19   But I was quite surprised to see this, that they will be, one, I guess having their own data centres because we're going to get to some of the other stuff a bit on.

00:28:28   This whole thing is getting a bit confusing and a bit muddled.

00:28:33   They actually asked Tim Cook about it on the analyst call and I think it was Tim, it might have been Luca Maestri, and they said the standard thing that Apple does will be done here, which is they'll do processing of things on device and they will have some of their own cloud services and they will use other cloud services.

00:28:51   I got the sense that it was a pretty straightforward, they use their data centres for some things and then they use partners for other things and it's a mixture that will change over time.

00:29:02   They really pitched it as being kind of their standard procedure here, that they do some of this.

00:29:08   I do wonder if they realised there was stuff that they weren't happy with doing on somebody else's server or whether there was a secrecy issue, whether they felt like they were better off trying this out on their own and then using other servers for more volume down the road.

00:29:25   But it's really interesting that they're trying to use their chips as a way to differentiate, I guess, or to power this in a way that they think maybe is better.

00:29:36   We don't know what it is or how it works, but it's a really interesting idea that they might do it.

00:29:42   I also wondered if it might be fallback kind of thing where on some of their devices, the power on the device is not strong enough and so that they might offload that into their cloud.

00:29:53   You know what? That makes so much more sense to me.

00:29:56   The reason I am confused is because of the next two pieces of rumour I have for you.

00:30:06   The first part I'll say is Mark Gurman and Julia Love at Bloomberg are reporting that Apple is closing in on a deal with OpenAI to bring ChatGPT features to iOS 18.

00:30:15   And then also Mark Gurman has reported on some Siri improvements.

00:30:20   Siri will feel more conversational, they're going to have a thing called Proactive Intelligence which will summarise your notifications for you, offer things like news synopses and improvements to Siri suggestions across the operating system.

00:30:33   They will also have AI photo editing and in this report Gurman says that Apple will not have a chatbot of their own.

00:30:40   It's something they are technically not capable of with where they are right now with their own internal stuff.

00:30:45   And they have executives that aren't thrilled with the idea in general of Apple making one of these things which is why the OpenAI partnership could exist.

00:30:52   So this is what is puzzling to me of like, well what do they need in the cloud then?

00:30:58   And where is ChatGPT or Google Gemini if that deal happens too?

00:31:02   Where is that coming in? Where is it not?

00:31:03   And you mentioning the idea there of like maybe what Apple provides cloud services wise is stuff they can do on device on new devices but can't do on device on old devices and that's what they take care of, that's their stuff.

00:31:19   It's essentially what happens on the Apple Watch with Series 9 versus Series 8 right? The idea that, or Ultra 2 versus Ultra 1 where it does it on device if it can and if it can't it doesn't and it uses the cloud and it just falls back to that.

00:31:33   That might be the case.

00:31:35   I also wonder, the chatbot thing is so interesting right?

00:31:37   Because it's very clear that a lot of people inside Apple are still, have been and are still sceptical about the chatbot thing and then other people are like what are you talking about?

00:31:46   Everybody in the industry is excited about this.

00:31:48   We can't sleep on it.

00:31:50   And so you end up in a situation where they're like well, we'll do it but we're gonna outsource it.

00:31:56   But what I wonder is where does the cutoff because Siri needs to have a conversational thing and be able to attach to more data sources and be more, right?

00:32:08   Like Siri needs some of that.

00:32:11   And if like I'm worried that what Siri is gonna have is something that's more rudimentary than we might wanna expect.

00:32:20   That said, I'm not sure I need Siri to do what chat GPT does right?

00:32:25   I'm not sure I really want Siri to go down too far down that path.

00:32:30   I just want Siri to remember my conversation, understand the context, be more conversational and be more functional and give me the information I want right?

00:32:37   Like I mean that's asking a lot.

00:32:39   But like GPT, chat GPT has this whole other set of things that you can throw at it.

00:32:44   So this is really interesting.

00:32:45   I don't know how you architect it so that there's just like a chatbot that eventually gets referenced.

00:32:52   I mean I don't know how, is there a chatbot app?

00:32:57   Is there a chatbot in the spotlight?

00:32:59   - Or like what Siri then?

00:33:01   - Right.

00:33:02   And what separates Siri?

00:33:03   Does Siri say I couldn't find this so I asked chat GPT?

00:33:07   - Yeah.

00:33:08   - It's very, this is why it's confusing to me right?

00:33:11   It's like there's obviously lots of things they can do, lots of things they may do but then there are all these reports which are quite conflicting.

00:33:20   It's becoming complicated to be able to follow what the story might end up being.

00:33:28   So that is intriguing to me.

00:33:29   It is increasing my intrigue but I'm also getting a little bit nervous.

00:33:36   - Sure.

00:33:37   - Too because they've kind of, I don't really think Apple has the opportunity to whiff this.

00:33:45   They really need to impress people I think.

00:33:47   - Right.

00:33:48   I think though what we may be seeing is Apple rapidly responding to this and so things are not as locked and as clear as they might be for a usual cycle.

00:34:00   And that goes to who Mark Gurman talks to where there may be some people don't know what other people are doing because they're trying a bunch of different stuff.

00:34:10   This also feels like maybe this summer's beta cycle is gonna be extra beta where they are also trying to figure out how to drop all this stuff in.

00:34:19   Some of it sort of not last minute but more last minute than Apple generally does this.

00:34:24   And I also, I would expect that some of this is going to be, they're gonna announce big in June and some of this stuff is gonna be October and some of it's gonna be December and some of it's gonna be March.

00:34:37   But that they need to figure out and they may be figuring out along the way.

00:34:41   Like let's change how this is integrated.

00:34:44   I just, to come back to saying more beta than usual.

00:34:48   I think a lot of this is gonna be like let's put it in there and see what happens and then tweak it as we go.

00:34:55   But I would expect that Apple's AI story, they're gonna make a coherent presumably presentation about it.

00:35:05   But I would think over the next few years, it's gonna kind of be all over the place where they're gonna be experimenting with things and changing as they go.

00:35:15   And changing their data sources and changing how their data sources are used.

00:35:19   And I'm okay with that.

00:35:21   I kind of expect that.

00:35:22   What they're not gonna do is unveil a finished product.

00:35:25   It's gonna be a work in progress.

00:35:26   But I hope there's a vision for how this all gets split up.

00:35:29   And I really, the thing that bothers me the most about the, there will also be a chat bot window that has ChatGBT in it or Gemini or whatever.

00:35:38   Is that's the thing, I'm not convinced that that is the most Apple-y approach to this.

00:35:45   It feels like they're punting.

00:35:48   Like they're basically like, well, we can't do that.

00:35:51   So we're just, you want your chat bot here, here's your chat bot.

00:35:54   You can have a chat bot if you want.

00:35:57   Because what Apple's good at is integrating that stuff into the whole experience and interface and having features.

00:36:03   And it suggests to me that Apple still philosophically believes that AI is a tool to be used by features and not an end unto itself.

00:36:13   And they may be wrong about that.

00:36:15   They might be wrong about that.

00:36:16   And so it's almost like a hedge where they're like, and there's a chat bot if you want it.

00:36:22   And they may learn the lesson that people do want that.

00:36:27   And I think by, so if it's a hedge, I mean, maybe that's a good thing because they will learn.

00:36:32   And we've said this about a bunch of stuff that they've done recently.

00:36:36   Like sometimes if you can force Apple to do it, like with the DMA, right?

00:36:41   We're going to know if having alternative app stores and sideloading is devastating to Apple's business and the security of its users or not.

00:36:52   We're going to learn it now because it's happening.

00:36:55   And I feel like this is a little bit like that where chat bots, are they not a thing that people actually want?

00:37:00   Are they not a thing that works within Apple's interface?

00:37:03   Maybe we'll find out.

00:37:04   And that will settle some of those arguments internally, right?

00:37:07   Some of those executives that Germin mentions who are like, this is not a thing, this is dumb, we shouldn't do this.

00:37:12   Like if their customers want it and they're using it, their arguments fail.

00:37:18   And that would be interesting to see too.

00:37:21   - Because I know I want to be able to have a conversation with my phone and have it understand what's going on.

00:37:28   - Yes, yes.

00:37:29   - I don't want to talk to a chat bot, but it's separated from the device, right?

00:37:35   - And that's the thing that gives me chills is, is this saying, oh, and there's a chat bot somewhere.

00:37:40   Is that setting us up for a Siri that's still not very good, right?

00:37:45   Because the chat bot thing, the number one thing that chat bot teaches us is, wow, Siri is bad.

00:37:52   This is what I want, right?

00:37:53   I want to have a conversation.

00:37:55   And so Germin says, Siri will feel more conversational.

00:37:58   It's like, okay, but that's what the chat bot is for.

00:38:04   So that's what I'm worried is that this is resetting expectations about what Siri is going to do to be like,

00:38:10   they slapped on a new coat of paint and it's more conversational, but in the end,

00:38:15   all it's really doing is a very limited number of on-device model summary things.

00:38:20   And the things we think of as what ChatGPT does, Siri's still not going to be able to do.

00:38:25   And boy, that would be frustrating.

00:38:27   So I have access to ChatGPT 4.0.

00:38:30   Yeah, me too.

00:38:32   And I plan around with it.

00:38:34   I found it interesting.

00:38:36   It was like, I think it's, I think it's very impressive, but I thought to myself, I want to, I want to see this play out in a different way.

00:38:42   So we're, we're just, we're on vacation.

00:38:44   We're at Disneyland.

00:38:46   And one morning I said to Adina, I was like, just talk to this thing, just talk to it.

00:38:50   And so she's, she was like, you know, hi, how are you?

00:38:52   Having a little conversation.

00:38:54   And she's like, can you give me some recommendations for places to eat, rides to go on?

00:38:58   And it was honestly incredible to just sit and watch this conversation unfold.

00:39:05   And I was like, this is what Siri needs to be as a bare minimum for me of like, you should be able to ask it questions and it give you answers.

00:39:14   Where so much of the time, like we just had this where like a couple of days later, Adina asked Siri a question, like she's out loud, asked the question.

00:39:23   And it said, I found this on the web for you.

00:39:25   And that was it.

00:39:26   It's like, that is terrible.

00:39:28   That is so right.

00:39:30   Yeah.

00:39:30   Well, that's, that's, that's what they need to address.

00:39:32   Right.

00:39:32   And yes, this is like for all of their, oh, we bet the company on AI now.

00:39:37   And we pulled all the engineers off the car project and killed them all that.

00:39:40   If Siri is still incapable, like it's unacceptable.

00:39:44   It's unacceptable.

00:39:45   Now, maybe, maybe the GPT is a fallback.

00:39:49   Maybe it's going to get fed information from chat GPT or Gemini or whatever.

00:39:54   That is fine.

00:39:55   But in the end, I do not want Siri to be like, well, I've reached the end of my knowledge.

00:40:01   Here is a page you can read on your phone, right?

00:40:04   Because that's the worst part about it is it's not, well, I found this thing on the internet that says this, what do you think?

00:40:10   And then you answer and you continue the conversation.

00:40:12   That's a more chat bot kind of experience.

00:40:14   But when, when Siri is just like, yeah, I can't do that.

00:40:17   You're going to need to look at your phone now and look at this webpage that I found that is the webpage you already looked at because it isn't helpful.

00:40:24   And like that is that, yeah.

00:40:26   So I just, I'm with you.

00:40:28   I think a lot of this makes sense that I do fundamentally believe that AI is not always a means to an end and that the winners of using, of leveraging AI technology have to make it.

00:40:38   Friendlier like put an interface on it.

00:40:40   It's like the command line.

00:40:42   It's a, it's powerful.

00:40:44   But like, if you could do more with it and use the AI stuff behind the scenes to leverage it in other ways, I think that that's really powerful and an opportunity for Apple.

00:40:53   But like, you can't get the personal assistant wrong.

00:40:58   I mean, you can't and Siri, like, man, can you imagine if they do this and then Siri's just still bad and then there's also a chat bot, but Siri is still kind of bad and broken.

00:41:10   Or even they're separated from each other too.

00:41:12   You know, we can put this on another, um, uh, phrase it in a different way, which is I think Apple's entire AI effort, no matter what they do, no matter how many new synopses and AI photo editing features they throw into it.

00:41:27   If Siri is bad, the rest of it doesn't matter.

00:41:31   If Siri is still bad, if Siri is still terrible and there are chat bots out there that are continuing to get all the hype, it will have, it will be perceived and probably will actually be a failure.

00:41:42   Like they got to get that right.

00:41:44   And the, the Gurman report is scary because it sort of suggests like maybe not.

00:41:50   And so we'll see.

00:41:51   All right.

00:41:52   I guess, but I'm, I'm worried about it too.

00:41:53   Because, you know, Siri was the, the first one of these kinds of things.

00:42:00   Like this was what it was supposed to be.

00:42:03   Yes.

00:42:03   Right.

00:42:04   Yeah.

00:42:04   And it was supposed to evolve, which it never did.

00:42:06   Never did.

00:42:07   It's better than it used to be, but the world has passed it by.

00:42:10   It's never taken a leap bigger than the initial one.

00:42:14   Right.

00:42:14   Where like it came around, it's like, wow, this is amazing because nothing had done that before.

00:42:21   And we forgave a lot of it and it was great at doing what it could do, but it's never since taken a jump.

00:42:27   It's like, oh, it's faster now.

00:42:28   It can understand you better now, but the answers aren't any more rich really.

00:42:35   So I don't know how they, I don't know how they square that.

00:42:38   And again, Mark Gurman's challenge is that he is just hearing from individual people throughout

00:42:46   Apple and they all have a different experience of this.

00:42:49   So it may be that these things are connected in ways that we don't understand, but yeah,

00:42:55   I just, I, I, I got the same vibes, which is in the end, it starts with Siri.

00:43:01   The whole purpose of Siri's place in the interface is to do what people use chat bot, AI chat bots to do.

00:43:11   That is why it's there.

00:43:13   And if, if it can't do that, or if the Siri team turns its nose up at the chat bots, or there's a,

00:43:22   you know, an executive somewhere who's just like, no, no, no, we can't let the crown jewels of Siri

00:43:27   be tainted by GPT or something.

00:43:31   It's like, no, man, like Siri's busted.

00:43:35   It, it needs, it needs this technology.

00:43:38   And like that is, so that's my fear.

00:43:40   It's almost more like an organizational fear with an Apple is like, okay, Apple's agreed

00:43:44   that they're going to work with open AI and maybe Google on chat bot stuff.

00:43:48   Okay, great.

00:43:50   But like, what's that implementation like?

00:43:52   And does it feel like it's being kind of held at arm's length and it's not actually improving?

00:43:56   Like do the people who won the argument to put chat bots in iOS have the clout to say,

00:44:03   no, no, really put it in.

00:44:06   Or are they going to like sneak it in, but people over and I'm, I don't know that the

00:44:11   Siri team feels this way, but just like theoretically the people behind Siri are like,

00:44:16   okay, you can put the chat bot in, but it's not touching our stuff.

00:44:19   And our stuff is going to be like this and it's not good enough.

00:44:22   Like that's a disaster.

00:44:24   So that, and that's a level where if stuff like that happens, it has to be high level

00:44:28   executive, right?

00:44:28   This is, this is what Tim Cook gets paid for, right?

00:44:31   The stuff like this, this is what Craig Federighi gets paid for.

00:44:35   And, and ediQ, like all the senior management team, this is, this is why they get paid the

00:44:39   big bucks is at some point you do have to say, these people win the argument and I know that

00:44:47   you don't like it for reasons, but they have to win the argument.

00:44:51   And my fear is that we're going to see some hedging and not winning the argument here.

00:44:57   And I'm not saying throw Siri out, but I think it's busted and needs to be a new Siri.

00:45:02   And if you've got a new Siri, that's not as good as chat GPT, but can leverage something

00:45:06   like chat GPT.

00:45:07   Great, great.

00:45:08   So boy, and, and you know, it's not going to be there in the first developer beta, right?

00:45:14   You know, it's not going to be there.

00:45:15   Something, something will be there, but it won't be there.

00:45:18   So a lot of this is going to hinge on like, what does Apple say?

00:45:21   I'm sorry to keep coming back to my classic Jason position of pay attention to the storytelling,

00:45:27   but Oh my God, we are going to have to pay close attention to the storytelling here because

00:45:33   I suspect the storytelling will tell us more about what Apple's thinking about AI than

00:45:37   maybe the initial betas will.

00:45:39   So moving on from this, uh, we have some iPhone news.

00:45:44   So a couple of things.

00:45:45   First, the 16 line, this year's iPhones dummy models of the 16 pro and 16 pro max of sight

00:45:50   at appearing online.

00:45:51   And if these are to be believed, the iPhones are getting a little bit bigger.

00:45:56   The 16 pro will go from 6.1 to 6.3 inches.

00:46:00   And the 16 pro max will go from 6.7 to 6.9 inches.

00:46:05   So phones, they get a little bigger.

00:46:08   And with this increase, Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that the 16 pro max may also benefit from

00:46:14   new battery technology to give a bigger battery life boost to the 16 pro max.

00:46:19   Oh, nice.

00:46:21   I like that.

00:46:22   Well, that's you're a, you're a, a big phone boy.

00:46:25   You like, are you, are you sort of like, you know, pro max is fine or, or are you still

00:46:30   in the camp of sort of like, I will take as much screen as you will throw at me.

00:46:34   I don't know if I want it to get bigger.

00:46:36   Interesting.

00:46:39   Interesting.

00:46:39   I, I feel like the pro max is at the limit that I want.

00:46:48   I don't think I want more phone.

00:46:51   I would need more reason for bigger phone than just bigger screen now.

00:46:59   Now, if it is like bigger battery, I'm like, great.

00:47:02   You know, like other features, like we were talking about them a couple of weeks ago,

00:47:05   like the other features that they might add.

00:47:07   And then I'll be like, okay, like, you know, and maybe this, maybe you remember we were

00:47:11   talking about the fact that the 16 pro might get the Tetra prism lens.

00:47:15   Maybe they needed to make the phone a little bit bigger to make that work.

00:47:18   I don't know.

00:47:19   But, um, I'm not sure I want the phone to get bigger.

00:47:24   And again, it's just a small amount, but in your pocket, that's a bigger amount, you

00:47:28   know, the way it feels.

00:47:29   So that was intriguing to me, but maybe I'll only have to worry about it for one year

00:47:35   because a report from Jeff Poo at the information details some of Apple's plans for the iPhone

00:47:41   17 line in 2026.

00:47:44   The biggest piece of news here is that the plus phone is going away.

00:47:51   So they, the fourth phone in the lineup has once again failed.

00:47:56   It's the curse of the iPhone mini.

00:47:59   So Apple is going in a completely new direction and working on something that, that

00:48:05   the information that Jeff is calling the iPhone 17 slim, the slim model would sit.

00:48:11   It's going to be air.

00:48:11   It's going to be air, Mike.

00:48:12   It's going to be air.

00:48:13   I don't air.

00:48:15   It's going to happen.

00:48:16   Maybe let's go through this first and I'll say why that doesn't necessarily land with

00:48:22   me.

00:48:22   All right.

00:48:23   So this slim model would sit between the pro and pro max and screen size.

00:48:29   Now, interestingly, Jeff's article references the 15 screen sizes, but then there's these

00:48:37   new rumors of the 16 making it bigger.

00:48:39   So let's just say between for now.

00:48:41   Okay.

00:48:42   It would be significantly thinner than any other iPhone model and would have a higher

00:48:48   price tag than the pro max.

00:48:50   That's why the air thing I'm not so sure about because it will be the most expensive

00:48:56   iPhone.

00:48:56   Right.

00:48:58   Because it will be super slim, which could be quite luxurious as an idea.

00:49:05   Now, interestingly, this, this gets weirder to me.

00:49:08   The 17, the 17 slim and the 17 pro will be made from aluminum of a design that is quote

00:49:16   more complex.

00:49:17   Whatever that means.

00:49:19   And the pro max will retain titanium and that phone will have a narrow dynamic island using

00:49:28   a technology called metalens.

00:49:30   And this new design in general, so that this new design that all of these phones will have

00:49:37   will feature rear cameras centered on the device rather than in the car.

00:49:41   Whoa.

00:49:42   This is a really weird report.

00:49:47   Like there's so many weird things in this.

00:49:51   The slim iPhone, middle size wise, more expensive, made from aluminium, which is weird.

00:50:00   Like that's weird to me.

00:50:01   I'm assuming the 16 pro will be titanium, but I guess if they do have a new design, you

00:50:07   could maybe like re-talk about the materials again, but then why does the pro max retain

00:50:13   titanium?

00:50:14   Maybe that phone is going to be different.

00:50:16   Like I guess it's going to look different on the front, so maybe it will have more than

00:50:20   that.

00:50:22   I am on board with, let's try the fourth phone again though.

00:50:26   Like I think that that to me is a good idea because I agree.

00:50:30   They're clearly struggling to land that.

00:50:33   And I would say that smaller or bigger, but not the nice one.

00:50:39   Neither of those are compelling enough stories.

00:50:41   I think for a large amount of people, I think significant, like a really thin, beautiful

00:50:48   iPhone, maybe that would be a USB of its own.

00:50:52   But then it's really weird for it not to have the most features, but it'd be more expensive.

00:50:57   It's gonna be a strange lineup.

00:51:00   Like that's for sure if this all comes to pass.

00:51:02   I like from a marketing standpoint, like a marketplace standpoint, I like the idea.

00:51:08   Like we tried the small phone, we tried the big phone in the low end set.

00:51:15   Why don't we try an ultra premium phone, a luxury phone that's above the pros?

00:51:21   Why don't we go up there?

00:51:22   Because I'm sure Apple feels like there are some buyers for whom money is essentially

00:51:29   no object and a beautiful iPhone that costs $2,000, but is super luxe and amazing and thin

00:51:37   and feels like the future is...

00:51:39   There are people who will buy that, right?

00:51:43   There are people who will buy that.

00:51:44   Maybe that is more...

00:51:46   Maybe being in that muddy middle as the fourth phone out of four, that's kind of different,

00:51:53   but not really, is a loser.

00:51:56   'Cause the pro has a clear selling point and the pro max has a clear selling point.

00:52:03   And the base model has a pretty clear selling point.

00:52:06   And then the odd one out that's just differentiated by size seems to have not worked either time.

00:52:12   So go upscale and shoot for something that's even...

00:52:16   That's like...

00:52:17   I mean, it feels...

00:52:18   Mike, I really get iPhone 10 vibes from this as well.

00:52:21   What if we made the future phone and it was really expensive, but we just made it and

00:52:26   sold it for a lot of money, but we can do it now?

00:52:28   - Really expensive and beautiful.

00:52:29   - And beautiful.

00:52:30   - We make almost a piece of jewelry and charge you a lot of money for it, which is kind of

00:52:34   what the iPhone 10 felt like at that time.

00:52:36   - iPhone 10 was like, "Oh my God, this is not like any other phone."

00:52:39   It costs what?

00:52:40   But it was so different and felt like the future.

00:52:45   And I could see them selling an expensive iPhone model that felt like the future, that

00:52:53   was not a pro or a pro max.

00:52:55   It was a different thing.

00:52:57   It was a different size, different thinness, different weight, maybe has some other different

00:53:02   technology things on it.

00:53:03   I mean, they've got all sorts of market research and stuff, but just as a person on the outside

00:53:09   hearing this idea, I can see why this idea might be worth trying because you might find

00:53:16   many more available buyers up there.

00:53:19   I think that's been one of Apple's lessons, right?

00:53:20   Is that Apple has learned to reach people who have smaller budgets for phones with older

00:53:25   models and with the SE and they have had success with that.

00:53:29   But I mean, I would assume the pro max has taught them that there are some people for

00:53:34   whom the price doesn't matter and they just want the biggest best iPhone.

00:53:39   I think for Apple as a business, it makes the most sense to have four distinct models.

00:53:45   Two of them are very expensive.

00:53:46   Like, I just think that it makes sense to them.

00:53:50   I mean, they may learn that there is a limit to that or the product might not tick the

00:53:55   boxes, but I'm trying to imagine a buyer who does not care so much about the money, but

00:54:03   really wants a gorgeous, amazing, talked about phone.

00:54:08   And this is, I mean, honestly, Mike, when we talk about Apple's phone sales over time,

00:54:13   it's often this kind of phone that spurs sales around the world.

00:54:17   Not just China, but China is one place where you could get a great advantage here, but

00:54:23   around the world, if there's an appreciably different new looking iPhone and it costs,

00:54:31   there are a lot of people who just buy it because they don't care.

00:54:34   Like there are a lot of people that it's like, you know, okay, it's $2,000.

00:54:38   Whatever.

00:54:39   Like they don't care.

00:54:39   What they want is, you know, and for those of us who are cheapskates, they're like,

00:54:43   "Oh man, I'm gonna..."

00:54:44   You know, the fact is, Apple has an audience that contains a lot of people who just want

00:54:48   the amazing, coolest, greatest looking Apple product.

00:54:53   And so, yeah, I would, if I was at Apple, I would try this for sure, right?

00:54:57   Because this may be an untapped market.

00:55:00   It's that classic, like, whatever your most expensive product is, there are some people

00:55:04   in your audience who would have paid even more.

00:55:07   And are there enough of them for you to make a product for them?

00:55:11   And something like this sounds like exactly that.

00:55:14   And I hope we get four distinct names.

00:55:17   So like the Pro Max becomes Ultra and then this gets its own name.

00:55:20   And then we have like the iPhone 17, the iPhone 17 Pro, the iPhone 17, we'll call it Slim,

00:55:25   and the iPhone 17 Ultra.

00:55:26   Especially if they're differentiating the Pro Max with something like titanium and things

00:55:30   like that, like it really is a different phone.

00:55:32   Yeah, it's a different phone.

00:55:34   I mean, it's been that way for a while anyway, and it seems like they're going further in

00:55:37   that direction.

00:55:38   And I just think as someone who is interested in just talking about these things, four distinct

00:55:43   iPhones that fit four different markets feels more intriguing to me than we're going to

00:55:48   take the line, split it in half, kind of replicate the two and they're going to have different

00:55:54   features.

00:55:54   Like the Plus got lost.

00:55:56   I forget it exists most of the time.

00:55:58   And clearly the mini did not sell what they needed.

00:56:01   Otherwise, it'd still make it.

00:56:02   So I think this is a very interesting idea.

00:56:06   The other way to go would be you have a 17.

00:56:10   Again, keep in mind, we're talking about 2025 here, 16 months away.

00:56:14   17 Pro, 17 Pro Max, and 17 Ultra.

00:56:21   And the new phone is the Ultra.

00:56:22   Maybe?

00:56:24   Maybe, yeah.

00:56:26   I mean, Air, I just think about the thinness and I sell it that, but if it's expensive

00:56:30   but and Superlux Ultra.

00:56:32   Ultra to me feels like it needs to have all of the features, right?

00:56:36   Like all of them and it's not going to.

00:56:38   Right.

00:56:39   So going to be really intriguing to see if they do this and how they pull it off.

00:56:44   And the rest of this, like a center camera and stuff like that.

00:56:47   I mean, it's just weird.

00:56:48   I don't know.

00:56:50   We know that they work in advance and that often these weird rumors from the summer before,

00:56:55   like the previous year, do end up being right.

00:57:01   But, and sometimes it's the details.

00:57:03   Remember, I'll remember iPhone math.

00:57:05   Sometimes the details are not quite right.

00:57:08   Yeah, I don't think Slim is the name.

00:57:10   I really don't think Slim is the name.

00:57:12   But it's really interesting to think about.

00:57:15   And I think, I mean, look, Apple spent the last, what, five, six, seven years super,

00:57:20   I mean, really 10 years since they did the larger phone for the first time.

00:57:24   Experimenting with the, with iPhone sales dynamics.

00:57:27   It's their most important product.

00:57:28   It's more than half of their total company revenue.

00:57:31   And they've had some success in differentiating the product line, but clearly there's this

00:57:35   one model that has not, they feel like they haven't cracked it.

00:57:39   So I think they're absolutely going to continue experimenting here and finding what the market

00:57:43   wants.

00:57:44   And if they have the capability to make this, I think that's the most interesting thing

00:57:48   about this rumor, honestly, is it sounds like it comes out of a question of like, we could

00:57:54   make a phone that's appreciably different next generation phone that's thinner, but

00:58:01   it'll have some compromises and where does it fit?

00:58:03   And we don't really, and it'll be expensive to make.

00:58:05   And then out of that emerges, well, why don't we just make that future phone and people

00:58:11   will buy it because it's awesome, even though it's super expensive.

00:58:15   That's an interesting idea.

00:58:16   So the experiments continue.

00:58:18   - And finally, Mark Gorman is reporting that the Mac Studio and Mac Pro will not receive

00:58:23   an update until mid 2025.

00:58:25   All other Macs should be on the M4 generation by the end of 2024.

00:58:30   - Based on some of his previous reports, where he said that there was another chip that had

00:58:35   not debuted yet in the M3 line, it sounds like they were originally at some point planning

00:58:41   to do an M3 Studio and Pro, and then with the move to the M4, they've just decided not

00:58:47   to do that.

00:58:47   - And they're essentially skipping.

00:58:49   - That's fine.

00:58:49   - It seems like.

00:58:50   - It's fine.

00:58:51   - I'll keep waiting. I'm gonna keep waiting.

00:58:54   I am not buying a computer until the next Mac Studio becomes available.

00:58:59   - Well, right.

00:59:00   I have an M1 Macs Mac Studio, right?

00:59:02   And I thought about it like, if I was given the opportunity to buy an M3 Macs Mac Studio,

00:59:07   knowing what I know about the M4, would I?

00:59:12   I wouldn't.

00:59:14   - Yeah, probably not.

00:59:16   Yeah, probably not.

00:59:16   I'll probably keep waiting.

00:59:18   - So it's probably all for the best.

00:59:21   - Because for me, all I really want it for is just to simplify, like, and not be using

00:59:27   a laptop, not be using a Thunderbolt dock anymore.

00:59:30   I want all my IO into one machine and then take additional power.

00:59:34   What I don't need this computer really to have is more power.

00:59:36   Like, I'm using an M1 Pro MacBook Pro.

00:59:39   - Sure.

00:59:40   - I can happily use this for another year and a half.

00:59:43   And actually, I will be happier to do that because I'll get more use out of this computer.

00:59:47   - My M1 Macs Mac Mini is great.

00:59:51   It's great.

00:59:51   It's fine.

00:59:52   I can foresee a moment where I'm gonna want a new one and I'm not really there yet.

00:59:58   And knowing that the M4 generation has begun, this would not be the time that I would look

01:00:05   to leap, right?

01:00:06   Because I'm like, well, you know, I don't really need that power right now.

01:00:10   And I know the new chip generation is very impressive because we've already started it.

01:00:14   So I think, and I think there are a lot of buyers who would be like that, where it's

01:00:16   just like, it's just fine.

01:00:17   Let's just not even bother putting those products out and we'll wait until hopefully

01:00:22   early next year.

01:00:23   But for the, and that's the next year, the Mac Pro and the MacBook Air, not until 2025.

01:00:29   - No, the, Mark said all other Macs should be.

01:00:34   - Yeah, but then he says the Mac, except the MacBook Air, he threw the MacBook Air in there.

01:00:39   - I'm sorry, I misread that.

01:00:40   Thank you.

01:00:41   - Although I find that weird and maybe it's a chip volume thing, but like, I don't know,

01:00:46   you're shipping an M4 iPad.

01:00:47   Wouldn't you want to ship an M4 MacBook Air sooner rather than later?

01:00:52   But it may just be a sheer volume thing that they just can't have.

01:00:56   They won't have enough because they know how many MacBook Air sell and they won't have

01:01:01   enough for that product.

01:01:02   And so they're going to wait until next year.

01:01:04   But that, yeah, I find that a little surprising, but that's where they are.

01:01:10   The Air, in my opinion, the Air should be the first Mac to get a new chip of a new generation.

01:01:15   But I also get that it's the best-selling one.

01:01:18   - Well, remind me, is this the basis of the iPhone chip too?

01:01:22   Like, I forget how this works now.

01:01:25   - The, this, so the, the M4 isn't, but the, the presumably there will be an iPhone chip

01:01:32   that will be on this process, the new TSMC process, which will take volume, right?

01:01:40   - Yes.

01:01:40   - Presumably there is volume that they are putting on the iPhone because they need those chips.

01:01:46   And that won't be called an M, it will be called an A, but, and it might have, I assume it'll

01:01:52   have the CPU cores and the GPU cores from the M4.

01:01:56   I assume that it will use a lot of the same work as the M4, but they tend to call it something

01:02:02   else because they make it for the phone.

01:02:04   So it's more power efficient, et cetera, et cetera.

01:02:06   But like, it's going to be the same process, presumably.

01:02:09   And so that factors in too, right?

01:02:12   They got to make a lot of chips for the iPhone for this fall.

01:02:15   - A lot of them.

01:02:17   Yeah.

01:02:17   Maybe the iPhones and the iPads are enough that you wouldn't want to have the MacBook

01:02:22   Air at the same time.

01:02:23   Like maybe it's, maybe it's too much.

01:02:25   I don't know.

01:02:26   - Yeah.

01:02:26   I seriously think there's a spreadsheet somewhere.

01:02:28   Cause I'm sure, look, I'm sure they would make the MacBook Air the first M series, a

01:02:32   Mac, right?

01:02:33   If they could, there's gotta be a spreadsheet somewhere of TSMC capacity and reserved for

01:02:39   the iPhone and reserved for this M4 chip that they're putting in lower volume products,

01:02:43   like the iPad Pro and probably some other low volume Macs as we get to the fall.

01:02:48   And they've got the, they want to do the pro and max variants for the MacBook Pro and put

01:02:53   them out there.

01:02:54   And you know, you start to look at it and you think, you know, we just revved the MacBook

01:02:58   Air.

01:02:59   It's fine.

01:02:59   Like I literally still have my review units on my desk.

01:03:02   I haven't put them in the boxes yet to send them back to Apple.

01:03:05   Like they just came out.

01:03:08   So I can see somebody inside Apple say, you know, it's fine.

01:03:12   And the truth is those of us who are super wired into Apple stuff know about the M4 and

01:03:18   care about it.

01:03:19   But I think Apple probably also knows that the existence of the M4 iPad Air, probably

01:03:24   not going to hurt MacBook Air sales really.

01:03:26   Not that much.

01:03:27   It's fine.

01:03:28   - You know, I saw this one other headline today.

01:03:30   I just think it's hilarious from MacRumors.

01:03:33   Apple's chief operating officer, Jeff Williams has visited Taiwan to secure supply TSMC's

01:03:38   upcoming two nanometer chips.

01:03:40   Economic Daily News reports the visit apparently involved the meeting between Williams and

01:03:44   TSMC's president to discuss custom AI chips and ensure that Apple will be able to access

01:03:50   the chip makers two nanometer manufacturing process set to begin in 2025.

01:03:54   I saw someone, I wish I remember who it was now.

01:03:58   It was either on threads or on Mastodon saying, has anybody from this team slept in the last

01:04:06   five years?

01:04:07   Unbelievable.

01:04:08   Really unbelievable.

01:04:10   - It just keeps going.

01:04:11   I mean, that's what I've said this before, but like one of the things that I'm impressed

01:04:16   by about Apple people, especially on the non-marketing side, on the technical side is they have to

01:04:23   talk when a product launches, they're talking about the past.

01:04:27   They probably have to be reminded of what they did, right?

01:04:30   Like when Johnny Srouji appears and he's like, hey, new chip, yay.

01:04:33   Like that chip is old news.

01:04:35   That chip is a work he did three, four years ago.

01:04:38   It's old stuff.

01:04:40   They're onto the next one, right?

01:04:41   Like we're all like, whoa, three nanometer process.

01:04:43   It's like, no, no, Jeff Williams is talking to TSMC about their two nanometer process.

01:04:48   They're already thinking about the chip that they're going to use in 25 or 26.

01:04:51   Like they're onto the next one already.

01:04:53   - That was Ben McCarthy's joke who said, I get the impression no one on Apple's chip

01:04:57   design team has taken a day off in about five years.

01:05:00   That was the joke.

01:05:01   And I wholeheartedly endorsed that idea.

01:05:04   - Yeah, so bring on the, I mean, and for people who are like, well, I mean, what happens after

01:05:09   the nanometer like runs out?

01:05:12   We were, are there no, like there's only two left and then what?

01:05:16   Only answer is don't worry.

01:05:18   Then we recalibrate the scale and we start talking about picometers.

01:05:23   Hooray.

01:05:25   So get ready for that.

01:05:27   That'll be something.

01:05:28   - Bulldog anthem.

01:05:28   - Yeah.

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01:08:13   So I got an iPad pro.

01:08:17   Yay.

01:08:19   I picked it up over the weekend.

01:08:20   I got the 11 inch model.

01:08:22   I wanted to talk about my experience with this a little bit.

01:08:27   It's going to be different to some of the other conversation about the iPad pro.

01:08:33   I sent you a text, you and Steven, a slack message where I said, you know what?

01:08:38   I think I'm iPad discoursed out.

01:08:40   I, I, we had a really good episode of Mac break weekly last week.

01:08:44   In studio, me and Micah, along with Leo and then Andy remotely.

01:08:49   And I think we had, we had new iPad pros there and I think we had a really good discussion.

01:08:53   I was very happy with the sort of points that I made on that.

01:08:56   And then I came back home and I was exhausted.

01:08:58   And, uh, and I said to you guys, I think I'm discoursed out about the iPad pro.

01:09:04   I think I'm done.

01:09:04   I think I've said every word and probably several more than that, that I have to say

01:09:10   about, uh, working on an iPad, et cetera, et cetera.

01:09:13   And I would like to re you know, go back into the, into the bushes like Homer Simpson.

01:09:18   So I, I love hearing you want to take this from another angle.

01:09:24   It's beautiful.

01:09:25   Cause like I understand where this comes from and I've gone through my own journey.

01:09:31   You know, like I was in the camp of you and Federico of really trying to do work on my

01:09:40   iPad pro, like we use it as my laptop and I did for a long time.

01:09:45   But then a combination of workplace changes.

01:09:49   So when I got my studio and Apple silicon kind of changed it.

01:09:53   And then I just moved back to the Mac.

01:09:54   Since then I've mostly focused my iPad usage on watching video, playing games, browsing

01:10:02   the web, like communication, you like iMessage and slack, but not like we're really getting

01:10:07   into stuff, not a ton of work really.

01:10:10   And reading comics.

01:10:12   And I've gotten by great in the past couple of years using an iPad mini, but I have been

01:10:18   basically since the beginning frustrated with the quality of the screen on the iPad mini.

01:10:23   And I was really interested in this iPad pro for my iPad needs, because I think for all

01:10:32   of those things, video gaming, web browsing, like using it as my kind of like home computer,

01:10:38   which is just like mostly things for me, not things for work and reading comics.

01:10:43   I thought that the iPad pro would do a great job and the decrease in weight and thickness

01:10:49   would maybe make it not so much of a thing going from the mini to the 11 inch.

01:10:54   So it is incredibly thin and light.

01:10:56   It's very funny to me that it's fitted in my iPad mini.

01:11:00   I know this, but also it's funny anyway, like it's just like a weird thing.

01:11:04   I'm still getting used to the screen size.

01:11:07   It feels massive to me for an iPad because I have been so used to now using an iPad mini.

01:11:16   This, the 11 inch iPad pro feels monstrously large.

01:11:20   It's very strange how you kind of like accustomed to that.

01:11:23   But the thing that I am happiest about is the screen.

01:11:27   This screen is incredible.

01:11:29   It's so good.

01:11:31   The OLED, like I watched X-Men 97 on my iPad, right?

01:11:37   And like, it's just a cartoon, fantastic cartoon.

01:11:40   Oh my God, by the way.

01:11:41   Oh my God, could not recommend X-Men 97 enough.

01:11:44   Incredible.

01:11:44   But I pressed play and a trailer for the Indiana Jones movie started up and it was in like

01:11:52   Dolby Vision.

01:11:53   I couldn't believe it.

01:11:55   I couldn't believe it.

01:11:56   It was like, I could not believe how good it looked.

01:12:00   I was blown away by it.

01:12:03   Like, because it's, you know, the OLED, like I think one of the first scenes is like, they're

01:12:07   in like a, it's like a dark street, but there's like a neon sign.

01:12:11   Oh my God, it looked incredible.

01:12:13   And so, yeah, screens are all good.

01:12:15   Like OLED in general is great.

01:12:18   And you mentioned this last time and I don't even hearing you say it, I don't think I was

01:12:22   prepared for the idea of like, everything about iPadOS looks better with an OLED screen.

01:12:27   Everything.

01:12:28   It's not just video.

01:12:29   Everything.

01:12:30   Like little panels come up and you're like, Whoa, that's very bright.

01:12:33   Yeah.

01:12:33   Or just like the color, like the richness of the color feels better.

01:12:37   Like just looking at my home screen just is so much nicer.

01:12:40   And you're coming from the mini, right?

01:12:41   Like I found it a little more subtle, but I'm coming from the best iPad screen ever

01:12:46   made, which was the 12.9 with the mini LED backlighting and the 2,500 different dimming

01:12:52   zones.

01:12:52   But if you're not coming from that one, then it's just that much more stark.

01:12:56   Yes.

01:12:56   Massively different.

01:12:57   Massively different.

01:12:59   Like, yeah, the mini screen is not good.

01:13:02   Like it has the jelly scrolling issue where you kind of like sometimes scroll.

01:13:07   It looks like the two halves of the screen is scrolling at a different refresh rate,

01:13:10   which is really weird.

01:13:10   So, but you know, I'm also, I have ProMotion again on an iPad where it's really noticeable

01:13:16   on the iPad.

01:13:17   I feel like it works very well on that screen.

01:13:19   And I've had iPad pros before, but it's been a long time for me.

01:13:22   Right.

01:13:22   And so, but yeah, I skipped them.

01:13:24   My last iPad pro was the 2020 iPad pro.

01:13:27   So like I didn't get any of those, like the mini LED changes and that kind of stuff.

01:13:31   I had forgotten how good face ID is for an iPad.

01:13:35   But it's not better than touch ID in every scenario for me.

01:13:41   So when I'm using the iPad, I much prefer it for like, you know, authenticate, one password,

01:13:48   all that kind of stuff.

01:13:50   But unlocking an iPad pro isn't as nice in my opinion as unlocking the iPad mini was,

01:13:58   because if you have a keyboard attached, you just tap a key and it unlocks for you.

01:14:02   But if you don't have a keyboard attached, you pick it up, wake the screen and then have

01:14:07   to swipe it or whatever.

01:14:09   Right.

01:14:09   Right.

01:14:10   Where like with the iPad mini, I would unlock it by like, I'd wake up the screen by touching

01:14:16   the same button that also would read my fingerprint and unlock the iPad.

01:14:20   When now I'm more like how I pick it up, I tap the screen to wake it and then I'm like,

01:14:25   oh, no, I swipe up.

01:14:26   It's like, it's just, it's not as smooth an experience where I remember with having the

01:14:31   keyboard, you just like tap the space bar and the iPad will unlock.

01:14:35   Because I don't have a magic keyboard and I have no desire to get one.

01:14:38   Like it could not be further away from what I want my iPad to do.

01:14:44   And like, I don't want to add the weight and the bulk for a keyboard that I'm trying not

01:14:48   to use really, because I don't want to make this like a big work device for me.

01:14:53   So I am using the Magic Folio, the denim color, because it's the only color.

01:15:03   It has new magnet positions, which is nice.

01:15:06   It's a little more fiddly, but you basically have like a much more adjustability in the

01:15:11   angles, so it can be fiddly to get there, but I like it.

01:15:14   Like I like that I can lean it back a little bit more or have it kind of standing up straight

01:15:18   a little bit more.

01:15:19   I think that's, it's cool that they added that.

01:15:21   So I like that they did that and it isn't just all about getting the keyboard and that's

01:15:25   your only adjustability option.

01:15:27   Like I think that's kind of cool.

01:15:29   But yeah, I do really like face ID though.

01:15:32   Like having that back again on the iPad is just nice.

01:15:35   I kind of forgotten how comfortable that is.

01:15:37   I have had a couple of times similar to you where I'm holding it in such a way that I'm

01:15:44   covering the sensors, but they deal with that pretty well.

01:15:49   Yeah, I found that my usual horizontal holding is upside down from where they put the camera.

01:15:59   So I have to retrain myself to hold it the other way, mostly because I prefer to have

01:16:03   the back of the Folio case hang down and attach and not have it be upside down where if it's

01:16:10   not perfectly attached, it falls over.

01:16:11   It's just a different feel and I preferred it, but now I just have to train myself out

01:16:15   of it because there's nothing worse than opening it up and being like, oh, I can't

01:16:19   do your face ID.

01:16:19   And I realize, oh yeah, it's all the way down at the bottom and my shirt is covering

01:16:24   it or whatever.

01:16:24   I'm like, I got to flip it back over.

01:16:26   Coming from the mini, I cannot stop noticing how fast and smooth everything is.

01:16:33   I expect this is a combination above the M4 and ProMotion, but everything is moving faster,

01:16:40   better.

01:16:41   I am getting a sense of like, this is a very powerful computer.

01:16:46   I feel like I have that in my, I can feel the power in it.

01:16:49   Also having a pencil attached to the iPad again, obviously I did not do that with my

01:16:54   iPad mini because one, the pencil is really big compared to the mini and two, I wouldn't

01:17:00   ever really feel myself wanting to use it on that screen because it was so small.

01:17:04   But I'm very happy to have the Apple Pencil and iPad Pro back for product design stuff.

01:17:11   Many times I've borrowed my wife's iPad to sit and draw something out for like a new

01:17:18   Cortex brand notepad or something like, we'll draw it out because I just find that to be

01:17:22   a nice experience and I'm happy to have something that's back to being mine again for that.

01:17:27   And the Apple Pencil Pro is an incredible upgrade.

01:17:30   The haptics feeling are fantastic.

01:17:32   The squeeze gesture to bring up the little palette is brilliant.

01:17:35   I'm really intrigued to see more apps and what they're going to do with the haptic stuff.

01:17:40   And it's nice to have that again.

01:17:44   I think if you use an Apple Pencil a lot, like if you're an illustrator or an artist,

01:17:50   there is I think enough in here that you would want to upgrade for it.

01:17:54   I think it is a significantly better experience to be able to access tools like right where you are.

01:18:02   Also, this is the first time I've had hover, Apple Pencil hover.

01:18:05   - Oh yeah, right. - That's really cool.

01:18:06   For me, the majority of my usage has always been interface stuff, right?

01:18:15   I was a big proponent of that.

01:18:17   It's really nice to have the little indicator wherever I'm hovering over.

01:18:22   Like if I was using the trackpad or whatever, I like that a lot.

01:18:25   So yeah, I'm super happy with this iPad.

01:18:28   I feel very confident in saying if you have a 2018 or 2020 iPad Pro,

01:18:34   this is the update you've been waiting for.

01:18:36   You should upgrade to this one.

01:18:38   If you use an iPad Pro and you have that first redesign model and you use it regularly,

01:18:45   I think if you move to this, you will be very happy with the upgrade.

01:18:49   Because I think this is a significant upgrade, especially the screen.

01:18:52   I mean, that's what an iPad is, right?

01:18:55   It's the screen and this screen is bananas good.

01:18:58   Like it's so good.

01:19:00   Everything looks fantastic on it.

01:19:02   And if you watch stuff that is like Dolby Vision, like HDR, incredible.

01:19:09   Looking at pictures on this thing, incredible.

01:19:11   Videos, incredible, right?

01:19:12   Because it's all the smart HDR stuff.

01:19:14   Yeah, this is a fantastic iPad.

01:19:17   I love it.

01:19:18   I don't think I'm going to use my Mini anymore.

01:19:22   I was wondering, right?

01:19:23   Like, will I still use the Mini?

01:19:25   I was worried about your Mini, right?

01:19:27   I was like, is he going to be disappointed with the size of this thing?

01:19:30   Because the Mini is so wonderfully small, but you lose all those features.

01:19:36   Because for me, I was still wondering like, oh, let's use the Mini to read comics.

01:19:40   Because it's so small and nice to hold in bed.

01:19:42   But no, no, no.

01:19:44   The old lady is too good.

01:19:45   It's too good.

01:19:47   So yeah, I'm pretty sure the Mini will be visiting a farm upstate at some point soon.

01:19:54   Because this thing is, I love it.

01:19:56   For everything I want to use my iPad for, it is better at all of those things significantly.

01:20:02   This is a really, really good device.

01:20:05   And yet the thinness and lightness of it is fantastic.

01:20:08   It's wild that they built a device that's like this.

01:20:13   It's a real flex.

01:20:15   And also they don't flex.

01:20:17   Which is, that's been a thing, right?

01:20:19   There's been a lot of bend tests now.

01:20:20   And it's holding up.

01:20:23   So bravo, Apple, I think this is a great iPad.

01:20:26   Yeah, I wanted to say again about one of the things I've appreciated about the pencil is

01:20:31   the haptics are really well done, right?

01:20:32   That we've talked about how, I know I mentioned this last week.

01:20:35   We've talked about how the pencil is in some ways like the ultimate Apple product.

01:20:38   Because it feels like it doesn't have technology in it at all.

01:20:41   It's actually stuffed full of it.

01:20:42   And that video showed like flying through the barrel of the pencil and all that.

01:20:46   But from the outside, it might as well be a piece of wood.

01:20:49   It is, there's nothing there.

01:20:50   And the haptics are also tastefully done where, you know, they say the haptics up in the top

01:20:55   of the barrel, but you wouldn't know.

01:20:57   Like the effect is incredibly solid and strong.

01:21:02   And then that squeeze gesture, which I find just so much more natural than the double

01:21:06   tap, which is still there, right?

01:21:07   You can still do double tap.

01:21:09   But the squeeze gesture I feel like is more purposeful.

01:21:13   I feel comfortable making the squeeze gesture in a way that I did not.

01:21:17   With the double tap, I can kind of keep it in my hand and squeeze versus the double tap

01:21:21   where I have to change my grip.

01:21:22   I think it's better.

01:21:23   And although anybody can write their, to the API to handle the squeeze gesture how they

01:21:30   want.

01:21:30   I just want to say again, how impressed I am with the undo that they built.

01:21:35   The radial undo.

01:21:37   Because one of the challenges in iOS for ages has been, how do you do undo on a device that

01:21:41   doesn't have a keyboard so you can't do command Z?

01:21:44   And it's been like, you can shake it or you can make a finger gesture.

01:21:47   But the undo with the squeeze gesture brings up a ring and you can trace backward and watch

01:21:55   your drawing, let's say, go backward and then trace it back forward.

01:21:59   - How do you do that?

01:22:00   - So you go, you squeeze on anything that's doing pencil kit and there'll be an undo item

01:22:06   and you select the undo item.

01:22:08   And then it turns into an undo ring.

01:22:10   And then you just move your pencil along the ring and it will step backward or forward.

01:22:16   It's basically an undo history like you'd see in Photoshop or something.

01:22:19   And you can find the state of undo instead of going back, back, back, back, back, back,

01:22:25   no forward, forward, forward, back, that one.

01:22:28   You just trace it.

01:22:30   - You have to like tap and hold on it.

01:22:34   So you like select it, you like just press on it and then you get,

01:22:39   oh, and it's got a little haptic on each notch.

01:22:41   That's sick.

01:22:42   That is sick.

01:22:43   - It's really good.

01:22:44   So that was my, that's my sleeper pick.

01:22:48   - I'd forgotten about that.

01:22:49   - My favorite feature is whoever came up with the radial pencil undo.

01:22:56   Not only is it super smart, I gotta say it should probably be system-wide without the pencil.

01:23:02   I would much rather be able to do like a three finger tap or a double tap or a triple tap

01:23:09   to bring up a ring that would let me just do a-

01:23:10   - Oh my God, you could just keep going forever.

01:23:12   Wow, what a feature.

01:23:15   - Yeah.

01:23:16   It's good stuff.

01:23:18   It's good stuff.

01:23:19   Thumbs up to the pencil people.

01:23:21   I know it doesn't, it's like, oh, it's just the pencil and it's a little nicer and all that.

01:23:24   And the barrel roll, people are gonna experiment with the barrel roll to do different things.

01:23:27   Like I keep waiting.

01:23:28   I imagine Ferrite will at some point let you barrel roll to like change,

01:23:32   because all the audio settings are like knobs to like just change the balance by maybe even

01:23:37   hovering over a control and then just turning the pencil, right?

01:23:41   Like, yeah, it's not for everybody.

01:23:46   Everybody's got their own use cases, but wow, for what it is and its audience,

01:23:50   it's really perfectly implemented, the whole, the hardware and software of the Pencil Pro.

01:23:54   - Yeah, my wife is an illustrator and we've been talking about this and I showed her the new stuff

01:24:01   and she was really, she thought it was really cool.

01:24:02   She watched the event and was really impressed by, she's a Procreate user.

01:24:06   She was really impressed by what they were showing, but that's not available yet.

01:24:10   Like they've updated it to support the new Pencil,

01:24:13   but they've not given their like big update that's coming.

01:24:16   And so I think our plan is when it comes out, she's gonna try it and we'll probably trade in

01:24:22   our old iPad and get her a new one. 'Cause for her, I think the thing that they showed

01:24:27   about being able to select layers is like massively, massively excellent.

01:24:32   - Oh yeah, right.

01:24:33   - The layer selection on the lighten like really, really,

01:24:36   really would make a huge difference for anyone creating art.

01:24:39   - The goal is, and I know people don't understand this because when I talk about keyboard shortcuts,

01:24:44   like back with the media controls before there was a function around the Magic Keyboard,

01:24:49   people were like, well, just reach up and like, I don't wanna reach up.

01:24:52   My hands on the keyboard.

01:24:53   When my hands on the keyboard, I wanna keep it on the keyboard.

01:24:55   I'm in keyboard mode.

01:24:56   The last thing I wanna do is break out of keyboard mode, go fiddle around.

01:24:59   Like I just wanna hit the key and then go back to what I'm doing.

01:25:02   That's what I want.

01:25:03   With the Pencil, it's the exact same thing, which is if you can build interfaces and gestures

01:25:09   and things into the Pencil so that there's more you can do while you're working with the Pencil

01:25:14   that doesn't require you to put down the Pencil, it's huge.

01:25:19   And so, yeah, selecting is a great example of that.

01:25:23   Undoing is a great example of that.

01:25:26   Being able to do that squeeze and then pick another item from a palette and go somewhere else

01:25:30   is a great way to keep you engaged in holding the Pencil instead of having to set it down.

01:25:36   Because I mean, I run into that in "Faireite" every now and then where I have to do something

01:25:39   like a, and you could go through the interface with it too, but like, I don't know, for me,

01:25:44   I end up going, I'm just gonna set the Pencil down 'cause I'm tapping through the interface.

01:25:48   Unlike you, I don't love tapping through the interface with the Pencil.

01:25:50   I'd really rather just get to the thing really quickly and then be back with my job.

01:25:55   But when you do that, you've broken concentration, I think, when you go into the UI.

01:26:00   So to have it all be triggered from the Pencil, it unlocks, I think, more creativity because

01:26:06   you're not breaking stride.

01:26:08   You're able to continue your focus.

01:26:10   Your hand is in, it's on the Pencil, it's in the right place.

01:26:13   You're doing the right thing there.

01:26:14   - So yeah, two thumbs up from me.

01:26:18   I understand the frustration that everybody has.

01:26:20   I also want iPadOS to be better, but for me, iPadOS is doing a great job at what I want

01:26:26   it to do right now.

01:26:28   And I'm happy with where this tool fits within my lineup of products that I use.

01:26:32   - Yeah, for all of our conversations about this, what I don't wanna get lost is there

01:26:39   are lots of amazing iPad use cases and everybody's got their own.

01:26:44   But I don't have a lot of time for people who are like, "Yeah, the iPad, it's irrelevant."

01:26:49   Like if that's okay, that's fine.

01:26:50   But just 'cause it's irrelevant for you, it doesn't mean it's irrelevant for other people.

01:26:53   I think, like, I don't know if it's my most used Apple device because I sit at my Mac

01:26:59   all day, but like everywhere else, I'm in bed in the morning, before I go to bed, sitting

01:27:07   on the couch watching TV, like cooking in the kitchen, like that's all iPad.

01:27:12   It's all iPad for me.

01:27:13   I have found so many places where it fits better in my life than a laptop or a phone.

01:27:18   And I'm very happy about it.

01:27:19   Not everybody's like that, that's fine, but there are so many great use cases.

01:27:23   So it's great to hear you talk about yours.

01:27:25   There are lots of reasons to be critical about the way that Apple has acted as a shepherd

01:27:31   for iPadOS, as the developer of iPadOS and not taking it places that it perhaps should

01:27:37   go given some of the hardware that they're building.

01:27:40   But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a remarkable product in a lot of ways.

01:27:45   And in fact, one of the reasons people are motivated to criticize it is because they

01:27:50   like it and they want it to be even better.

01:27:52   So anyway, lots of great places where you can use an iPad.

01:27:56   I'm glad that I really wasn't sure that you would convert from the iPad mini because the

01:28:01   mini is so delightfully small, but there's so many other things about these other iPads

01:28:06   that are great.

01:28:07   - Yeah, exactly.

01:28:10   I wanted to try and yes, I mean, what it has kind of reminded me is first and foremost,

01:28:17   I love new technology and this has new technology, like a lot of new technology in it.

01:28:22   And I am enamored with it really.

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01:28:48   Can you make me pretty hungry by talking about Wild Grain?

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01:28:51   Last night, Mike, last night, what did we do?

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01:29:44   put it in the oven, let it do its baking thing, took it out, let it do its cooling thing,

01:29:52   sliced it up.

01:29:53   And we had this great lentil dish and fresh bread.

01:30:01   I just sliced all the bread and put it on a plate.

01:30:03   And I just sat there with my bowl, just dipping the bread in and eating the spicy lentil dish.

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01:30:28   But the fresh bread was the thing I said, I don't want to make this unless I've got

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01:31:24   So how do you get fresh bread at home?

01:31:25   This was a great way.

01:31:27   We didn't have fresh bread in the house, but we did because we had that wild grain in the

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01:31:31   Yeah, you successfully did it.

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01:31:58   An incredible deal.

01:31:59   When you go to wild grain.com/upgrade, that is W I L D G R A I N.com/upgrade or you can

01:32:09   use the promo code upgrade at checkout.

01:32:11   Our thanks to Wild Grain for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:32:15   It is time for some Ask Upgrade Questions.

01:32:21   How did you feel about Steven doing the lasers?

01:32:25   Well, I couldn't hear him when he did them, but we put them back in later and they're

01:32:30   fine.

01:32:31   They're fine.

01:32:31   It was good that he did them.

01:32:32   I thought that was fun.

01:32:33   I was, I wondered if there was going to be a laser war of some kind.

01:32:37   Maybe you were going to find it back.

01:32:38   Oh yeah.

01:32:38   Well, I mean, if I could have heard them myself, but they were, we had to change it in the

01:32:43   edit because it was, it was just like, he's got, there's something about his office

01:32:47   set up where he's got the literally really aggressive noise canceling where you can't

01:32:52   hear his bell dinging.

01:32:54   We have this all the time.

01:32:55   You can't hear him going, it's just a problem.

01:32:58   Steven has stealth lasers.

01:33:00   Dave asks, when you take your iPad off of your Magic Keyboard, do you put it in a case

01:33:07   to carry it around?

01:33:09   There are times where I'm running around when I want the iPad, but not the keyboard.

01:33:13   What do you do, Jason?

01:33:14   I mostly have at all times a Smart Folio cover as well as a Magic Keyboard.

01:33:22   Okay.

01:33:23   And I use the Magic Keyboard.

01:33:24   I found a lot of people expect that you keep the iPad in the Magic Keyboard all the time.

01:33:29   I don't, I don't.

01:33:31   Oh, you tactically deploy it.

01:33:33   I do.

01:33:34   I do.

01:33:34   You know, I love a tactical deployment, Mike.

01:33:37   That is my, we love it here on the upgrade program.

01:33:40   We love a tactical deployment.

01:33:41   Do we?

01:33:42   Okay.

01:33:42   We do.

01:33:42   We do.

01:33:43   We love it.

01:33:44   I love it when things are deployed tactically.

01:33:46   When there's a deployment that happens and you're like, you know what?

01:33:48   That's a tactical.

01:33:49   If it's not tactical, I don't want it.

01:33:52   No, exactly right.

01:33:53   If it's not, it's like a big highfalutin kind of like theoretical deployment.

01:33:56   I want it to be tied to a tactic.

01:33:58   Anyway, we love a tactical deployment.

01:34:00   And that's what I do.

01:34:01   So I keep my iPad most of the time in the, in the Smart Folio.

01:34:07   Most of the time, though, occasionally with this new one, I've been taking it out of the

01:34:12   Smart Folio every now and then and been like, but it is now is within and light, right?

01:34:16   But mostly it's in the Smart Folio.

01:34:17   If I'm going to be using it in extended time, I might take it off, but mostly it just stays

01:34:21   in the Smart Folio.

01:34:22   The keyboard, it just hangs around until I need to write something or type something

01:34:27   that's of length.

01:34:28   And then I will put it on, but I don't because I want it to be lighter.

01:34:32   I mean, that's the thing when I say that the problem with the MacBook is that you can't

01:34:35   rip the screen off and go, you know, use it.

01:34:38   That's why it's because most of the time I don't need the keyboard.

01:34:42   And so I don't want the weight.

01:34:44   And the beauty of it is it's just the keyboard's around and I will, I'm like, oh, I'm going

01:34:49   to write something on the iPad now and I will go find my keyboard and I'll snap it in and

01:34:52   then I'll write my thing.

01:34:53   But I don't have it hanging around all the time.

01:34:56   I'm in the Smart Folio cover, which I'll just say again, Apple has decided in their great

01:35:01   wisdom to only make, they made one cover, one color for the cover.

01:35:05   Whereas when the old iPad Pro came out for the longest time, you only could get it in

01:35:10   gray and then maybe I think gray and white.

01:35:12   They finally made like some beautiful colors.

01:35:15   I have an orange Smart Folio for my M1 iPad Pro.

01:35:19   That's beautiful.

01:35:21   They have denim as the only color option other than gray and white.

01:35:29   What I'll tell you is whatever you think denim is, it ain't that like, this isn't denim.

01:35:35   It doesn't look like denim.

01:35:37   It's like a navy blue.

01:35:38   I wouldn't even call it navy blue.

01:35:41   It's like, it's blue.

01:35:43   I don't know how to describe it.

01:35:44   But I wouldn't think of it as denim, but yeah, it's like a kind of muted blue.

01:35:48   Blue jeans come in all sorts of colors, including dark colors like this.

01:35:53   I think.

01:35:54   Whatever you think of as like your standard Levi's 501 blue jean or whatever, which is

01:36:00   canonically denim, I suppose.

01:36:02   Yeah, it's not like that.

01:36:04   It's not that color at all.

01:36:05   It's a lot darker.

01:36:06   I use, I keep, obviously I said earlier, I don't have a smart keyboard.

01:36:12   I do magic cube, whatever it's called.

01:36:14   I do kind of wish I could live the no case life for the iPad, but like for me, the case

01:36:20   is very important to the functionality of the iPad.

01:36:23   Like I want my iPad to stand.

01:36:25   Yes.

01:36:26   Like that is very important to me.

01:36:27   Yes.

01:36:29   And I don't really, I don't, I don't screw with kickstands.

01:36:32   I'm not a kickstand guy.

01:36:34   No, kickstands are bad.

01:36:35   Thumbs down to the kickstands.

01:36:36   So yes, I, the case is great and I use it in all sorts of ways to, yeah, to put it up

01:36:42   right, to have it be in sort of typing position.

01:36:44   There are lots of ways that, that it works better.

01:36:47   I just wish that I wish the, there were some color options.

01:36:50   They're not going to give me color options for my iPad.

01:36:52   I wish there were color options for the, the, the cases.

01:36:54   And I'm just disappointed that the denim is the best we managed this time after that.

01:37:00   Cause I want that orange again, orange is so good or yellow or a, or something brighter

01:37:05   would be really nice.

01:37:06   And they did, there was like that brief moment where they're like, yeah, you could do a

01:37:10   bright cover for an iPad Pro.

01:37:12   And then they got, then there was the crackdown, right?

01:37:13   The colors came back from vacation.

01:37:15   It was like, what are we doing here?

01:37:16   And then back in, back in lockdown.

01:37:18   I have another similar question in the same vein from Neil who says, I am a caseless iPad

01:37:25   user as I appreciate the svelte dimensions of a bare device.

01:37:29   So I often wonder what the use case is for a relatively bulky, relatively bulky keyboard

01:37:35   case versus using a good Bluetooth keyboard.

01:37:37   Are there many situations where the iPad of a separate keyboard is worse?

01:37:41   So couple of things here.

01:37:44   One is Bluetooth keyboard is great, but where's the iPad?

01:37:49   Is it in a, it's gotta be like you're using it like flat on a table or something.

01:37:55   That's bad ergonomics.

01:37:56   I realize now I did cut out part of this question, which is important where they said that they

01:38:00   were, they thought that the studio neat canopy looked interesting, right?

01:38:05   It's like a device to carry a keyboard in and then to use as a stand for whenever you

01:38:09   want to use that.

01:38:09   Sure.

01:38:10   So it's a combo.

01:38:11   You've got to have a stand and a Bluetooth keyboard.

01:38:14   It's perfectly reasonable.

01:38:15   I have a, I have a stand that I use when my iPad is on my, the bar of my kitchen.

01:38:23   I put it in, I clip it in and it puts it up high.

01:38:27   And then I use a, I use a Bluetooth keyboard and it's really nice when I'm using it there.

01:38:33   But that's a whole setup where I've got a stand and all of that I've used.

01:38:36   I mean, that, that old studio neat canopy was really nice as, as a way of traveling with

01:38:42   a keyboard separately and all that.

01:38:43   But the beauty of the magic keyboard is that it is just a laptop.

01:38:48   It's all in one.

01:38:49   The stand is there and it's the best experience because it's hovering over the keyboard.

01:38:54   It's adjustable.

01:38:55   It's all in one piece.

01:38:56   And if you're working on your lap, which I do a lot, like I, I, I'm doing a lot of that

01:39:02   on my lap in, on the couch or out in a camp chair under the redwood tree in the summertime.

01:39:08   Like that's in a scenario like that, you got to have it all together.

01:39:13   You also get the track pad, right?

01:39:14   Like the track pad is a, is a big deal for that product.

01:39:18   Right.

01:39:18   When I'm working these days, when I'm working on the, um, on the bar, the bar top on sitting

01:39:23   on a bar stool, I will also have a track pad that I bring out.

01:39:27   Right.

01:39:28   And so it is nice to have it all in one.

01:39:30   Yeah, it is.

01:39:32   It is.

01:39:32   So there are, there are scenarios where I think it's perfectly reasonable to do this and travel

01:39:37   with a keyboard.

01:39:38   I just decided, and also you can save money because Bluetooth keyboards are way cheaper

01:39:41   than the magic keyboard.

01:39:42   You can absolutely save money doing it that way.

01:39:44   But ideally the magic keyboard is like a really good, it's just a good fit.

01:39:49   If you need, if you're willing to spend the money and, and you want that kind of perfect

01:39:55   fit and good portability, it's, it's worth it.

01:39:57   But I absolutely use a mechanical keyboard and an iPad when I'm inside at a, you know,

01:40:05   at the bar, but that's not right.

01:40:08   That's only one use case where that makes sense.

01:40:10   And car asks, given that the M four chip has a dedicated controller for the OLED tandem

01:40:18   display in the iPad pro.

01:40:19   What are the chances that an M four based Mac book pro rumored for this year and the

01:40:25   M four MacBook cares for next year could have OLED displays related chances for an OLED

01:40:31   display to pair with an M four based Mac desktop later this year or next?

01:40:36   Do you think that the, basically, do you think the inclusion of the display controller for

01:40:42   the OLED tandem display could indicate that we could see OLED displays in laptops?

01:40:48   Yeah, I think, I think it could mean that the MacBook pros are getting OLED displays,

01:40:53   not the MacBook air.

01:40:56   Prices don't make sense.

01:40:58   In fact, I wonder if they do OLED for the MacBook pros, if they might actually segment

01:41:02   them further and, you know, they all have that same really nice display now, but I wonder

01:41:07   if that low end M three 14 inch MacBook pro, I wonder if the $1,500 to $2,000 range just

01:41:16   keeps that screen, but they put an OLED in the higher end screens.

01:41:20   I wonder if that might be the way that they would do it.

01:41:23   Not the MacBook air.

01:41:25   I thought this question was going to be, does this mean that maybe it'll dry?

01:41:28   The MacBook air will drive two external displays with the lid closed.

01:41:32   Maybe.

01:41:33   And I think maybe like, like a new display controller that souped up like that.

01:41:38   It makes me think that maybe there are some Mac applications.

01:41:42   This is a more broad answer.

01:41:44   They're probably Mac applications for doing that.

01:41:46   Like the M four is mostly not going in the iPad pro, right?

01:41:50   It's mostly going to go in max.

01:41:51   Max are gonna, they're going to be more max out there with it than iPad pros in the long

01:41:55   run.

01:41:55   So there are probably Mac reasons to have that display controller in there too.

01:41:59   And they're just not talking about it because they don't have a Mac to talk about right

01:42:02   now.

01:42:02   So I would think that there are going to be some things I also wonder if like, could it

01:42:08   mean that it it's got improved functionality for like the virtual display on the vision

01:42:13   pro.

01:42:14   Like, I don't know what all it might enable, but it does sure feel like they wouldn't have

01:42:19   upgraded the display controller on the M four just for the iPad pro.

01:42:25   It feels like there are probably other applications for it, whatever they might be.

01:42:28   Do you know, you might not know this, but like the, the tandem system, is it showing

01:42:37   like two copies of the same thing?

01:42:39   I think it is.

01:42:40   I think, I think it's one is right behind the other and they're showing the same thing.

01:42:43   And that's how you get the increased brightness.

01:42:45   So like essentially if you were to like split it up, right?

01:42:48   Like if you were able to like pull them apart and do something with it, you would have essentially

01:42:52   two displays.

01:42:53   Right.

01:42:54   And they're, they're both showing the same image.

01:42:57   But the pathway is, is different.

01:42:59   It's not like you're actually using two displays.

01:43:02   This is, I tried to get into this in detail with Apple in New York and there was a point

01:43:06   beyond which they were just not willing to go.

01:43:09   They're like, we could, you could talk to our display people that we're not gonna let

01:43:12   you talk to.

01:43:13   Cause I wanted to know more about this, but my understanding is that.

01:43:19   Since it's sending the same signal to both panels, it's not like the device is drawing

01:43:26   things twice.

01:43:27   Right.

01:43:28   It's drawing it once and telling both panels to draw the same thing.

01:43:32   So it's not right.

01:43:34   You get it?

01:43:34   Like it's, it's, it is more like driving one display, but yeah, if you pull them apart,

01:43:40   they're basically mirrored.

01:43:41   The thing that they have to do, and they did talk about this, which is fascinating is every

01:43:46   OLED panel has a different characteristic.

01:43:49   Like not every dot on an OLED panel is, has the same max brightness, which I did not know.

01:43:56   They're all a little different.

01:43:59   That's just a quirk of OLED.

01:44:00   And so they have to be calibrated.

01:44:03   And so they put the screens through calibration and you end up with like a calibration map

01:44:09   of this pixel should only go this bright and this pixel should only go this bright.

01:44:13   And the reason you do that is you want them all to be uniform, even though physically

01:44:17   they're not uniform.

01:44:18   If you don't do that, then continuous red or whatever ends up looking blotchy because

01:44:25   they're all red, but they're all not quite the same.

01:44:28   And so they have to do that.

01:44:30   And what they told me is they have to do that and they have to do it for two different monitors.

01:44:35   And they have to have both of those displays, do those at high resolution at high frame

01:44:42   refresh on the fly.

01:44:44   They have to modify every single pixel that is coming from the computer has to be modified

01:44:50   based on the calibration.

01:44:51   And they said that is the kind of thing that you need to do down at the very lowest level,

01:44:56   which is why they have the display controller doing the job.

01:45:01   So that part is really interesting that they're not, the panels aren't the same and even the

01:45:05   individual pixels on the panels aren't the same.

01:45:07   So they have to do a lot of massaging there.

01:45:10   But what they don't have to do is try to draw the same thing twice.

01:45:13   They draw it once and it gets sent to both panels.

01:45:15   So in that way, they are identical and they're right behind each other.

01:45:19   And that's to get more brightness in there.

01:45:21   Quinn at Snazzy Labs did a really good YouTube video that I think we might have referenced

01:45:26   last week, but he talked about tandem OLED and how it's not one of those things that

01:45:31   Apple makes up and says, "Oh, it's the mega ultra display XDR Pro."

01:45:37   Those kind of words.

01:45:38   It's not that.

01:45:40   It's existing technology that has been talked about for quite a while and Apple decided

01:45:44   to actually implement in this way, which is interesting.

01:45:47   - If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show, for Ask

01:45:52   Upgrade, for Snail Talk, whatever it is, you can also send in your follow up at upgradefeedback.com.

01:45:58   You can check out Jason's writing over at sixcolors.com and hear his shows on

01:46:02   the incomparable.com and here on Relay FM.

01:46:04   You can listen to my shows here on Relay FM too and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:46:09   Where online, Jason is @jsnail, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.

01:46:13   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:46:15   You can watch video clips of the show on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube where we are @upgraderelay.

01:46:21   Thank you to our members who support us with Upgrade Plus and get longer ad-free versions

01:46:25   of each and every episode.

01:46:26   Go to getupgradeplus.com to find out more.

01:46:29   Thank you to Wild Grain, Ooni, and Delete Me for their support of this show.

01:46:33   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:46:36   We'll be back next time.

01:46:37   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snail.

01:46:39   - Goodbye, Mike Hurley.

01:46:41   (upbeat music)