512: Pros Are the Little Boats


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 512, recorded Monday, May the 13th, 2024.

00:00:16   I am Jason Stell. Mike Hurley is off this week. He's traveling and having fun.

00:00:23   Well, we are down to the difficult, hard-working business of doing things like reviewing a brand new iPad Pro.

00:00:31   That's coming later in the show. But first, let me tell you, we're sponsored this week.

00:00:36   Fitbot, delete me, ExpressVPN. And participating in the show this week,

00:00:41   there is no one else who should be here for Episode 512, like the proprietor of 512pixels.com,

00:00:49   the fork bomber himself, the Mac Daddy himself. It's Steven Hackett. Hi, Steven.

00:00:54   I wasn't expecting a fork bomber joke today. I was thinking about your website. That's all.

00:00:59   Yeah. Yeah, that was the old name. It's a programming joke. It's not a... nothing else. Just a programming joke.

00:01:05   No, 512 pixels, though, from the original Mac. At 512 pixels.

00:01:08   That's right. Yeah, a little DPI humor. Yeah, a little screen resolution reference from two years before you were born.

00:01:17   That's true. Hello, Jason. Thank you for having me. It's always fun to talk about computers with you.

00:01:23   We don't get to do it very often. It's true. It's true. And also, it took...

00:01:26   I'm going to keep saying this in this episode, it took two co-hosts of Connected to replace Mike.

00:01:33   I don't like that. I don't love it either. I guess he's the Archbishop of Rickington or something.

00:01:40   I don't know how that works. He's won a lot of things over there.

00:01:43   And of course, he's also the upgrade draft champion. You won't let me forget about that.

00:01:48   So Federica will be joining me later to talk about the iPad Pro because the iPad Pro announced last week.

00:01:57   And I got one on Wednesday and have been using it ever since pretty much as my only computer.

00:02:07   And so I wrote my review on it. I traveled over the weekend, which is actually kind of fitting for an iPad Pro to travel

00:02:13   and roam around and also be working on it and reviewing it.

00:02:17   And who better, I think, to talk about iPad Pro stuff than Federico, who did not review the iPad Pro.

00:02:24   But he did write a big article on Mac stories. And we're going to talk about that a little bit more too, about his...

00:02:29   Sort of... We got a lot of feedback here. And I know that Federico got it too.

00:02:33   We have a lot of feedback here from people who last week, they found our...

00:02:37   I think they found our clips on YouTube. So I guess that is working.

00:02:41   About complaining about the iPad. But they have no context of all of our past complaints.

00:02:46   And so several people swooped in and said, "Could you list some complaints?"

00:02:50   And Federico was glad to oblige and wrote an entire article about his complaints about iPad OS and its limitations.

00:02:57   So that'll be good.

00:02:59   It's a great article. I know you're going to talk to him later in the show.

00:03:03   I did realize though, just now, that you having both Federico and I on the show on the same day, the same episode...

00:03:12   You actually were forbidden to choose between us because you can't flip a coin.

00:03:16   And so you were stuck with both of us.

00:03:18   Actually, coin flipping is allowed on upgrade. It's just discouraged.

00:03:23   You'd be publicly shamed.

00:03:25   All of those things. I heard about all those things.

00:03:28   But hey, Steven, before we get started, I think it's time to do a Snell Talk question. Can you handle this one for me?

00:03:34   This could turn into a Smell Talk question.

00:03:38   This comes from Upgradient Sam.

00:03:43   "What is your favorite airline snack, Jason? And why isn't it 4 hour old room temperature sushi?

00:03:51   I was sitting right behind you and I didn't know if you got to experience the glory that was my roommate

00:03:57   talking into some sushi at least 4 hours into our flight. Boy, that was rough."

00:04:03   So Sam told the story at the Newark airport the day after the Apple event.

00:04:08   Sam, I'm sitting there doing I don't even know what, and somebody waves at me and I look up and it's Sam,

00:04:15   who I've never met before, and he turns around his iPhone to show the Ask upgrade chapter art.

00:04:22   Incredible.

00:04:24   Which I immediately tell you and Mike about.

00:04:27   Yeah, it was great.

00:04:28   So what I didn't know is that Sam sat a row behind me and didn't say anything.

00:04:32   It's like you could have said something. I guess it was a little, he's not stalking me because it's like literally we were just assigned those seats.

00:04:38   Anyway, so after I got off, I did chat with Sam and he said some nice things and I thanked him for listening to the podcast.

00:04:47   It was really nice. But I didn't know until later that he had sent in a Snell Talk question about the 4 hour old room temperature sushi.

00:04:55   I didn't, I don't think smell the sushi, but there was a smell. I kind of thought it was coming from the bathroom because we were only a couple rows ahead of the bathroom.

00:05:06   But my favorite, let's not talk about unpleasant things anymore, my favorite airline snack.

00:05:14   I don't have a single go-to like James Thompson, our friend, who I discovered having had many flights with him now.

00:05:23   He has a very particular type of cheddar cracker that he gets as a, and I think he gets it even at the airport.

00:05:31   And it's readily available, not a brand available in America, but in the UK.

00:05:35   And that's what he has and that's his comfort food probably since he was a kid.

00:05:40   I like, let's see, I like chocolate on a trip. I try to bring some dark chocolate with me in my bag on a trip so I've got some chocolate.

00:05:55   And then it melts right into your iPad.

00:05:57   So I was going to say, the highlight or the low light of my chocolate travels is that we went, you and I, to Johnson Space Center and spent a whole day on the big long tour.

00:06:08   While out in the car, my backpack containing a bar of chocolate sat in the blazing hot Houston sun.

00:06:17   Houston, Texas.

00:06:19   And I got to the airport and a molten wave of chocolate had covered, actually had covered the case for my Sony headphones.

00:06:30   They got the worst of it.

00:06:32   And Julian used those headphones for a while.

00:06:34   And every now and then I would see the case and I would just think, that's Houston chocolate there, baby.

00:06:39   Houston chocolate.

00:06:40   Oh, so, so yes, you got to bind where you try.

00:06:43   Ever since then, you got to mind where your chocolate is.

00:06:45   Don't leave it in the hot.

00:06:47   But so that's one.

00:06:49   I love those ginger.

00:06:50   I love ginger like cookies and stuff in general.

00:06:53   So those Biscoffs that are on the Biscoff cookies that are on like Delta and American now does it too, which I feel like they're kind of ripping off Delta because that's a Delta thing, right?

00:07:02   Yeah, I got my last American flight.

00:07:04   They, they offered me Biscoffs.

00:07:06   I was like, okay, does Delta know you're doing this?

00:07:09   Yeah, but they're really nice.

00:07:10   They're little, you know, little snappy ginger cookies.

00:07:12   They're great.

00:07:12   I love them.

00:07:13   So that's a favorite.

00:07:14   Yeah.

00:07:14   They're also an iPhone app developer.

00:07:17   You know, our friend.

00:07:18   Matt Bischoff.

00:07:19   That's a different thing.

00:07:20   Oh, I thought you meant the Delta emulator, which is not does not have an airline.

00:07:25   Also a different thing.

00:07:26   Do you have a favorite airline snack?

00:07:29   I was thinking about this.

00:07:30   Um, I think you gotta be careful with airline snacks because you don't want something that's going to be like crunchy and make a mess.

00:07:37   Right?

00:07:37   So that rolls out like some granola bars and that sort of thing.

00:07:40   Sure.

00:07:40   Um, uh, and you, yeah, you want something that obviously doesn't melt, right?

00:07:45   Like your Houston experience.

00:07:46   No good.

00:07:47   No, I think I'm going to go with like an RX bar kind of thing, right?

00:07:50   Like it's prepackaged.

00:07:51   It's it's, it will get soft, but it's not going to melt, but also critically not crumbly.

00:07:57   That's what bothers me with an airplane snack if I feel like I'm sitting in crumbs on my way to California.

00:08:02   I don't want that.

00:08:03   I get that.

00:08:04   I get that.

00:08:04   That is the danger with the Bischoff is that, you know, you take a bite and then you've got ginger crumbs all down your shirt and all that.

00:08:09   But yeah.

00:08:10   Um, better than sushi crumbs.

00:08:11   I was going to say, what I really like to do is, is get some sushi a few days before and just tuck it into the bag.

00:08:17   And then, you know, eventually I'll go through security and I'll get on the plane and in the middle of a five hour flight, I'll take it out.

00:08:25   Just bust it out.

00:08:26   Yeah, that's, that's no good.

00:08:28   Thank you.

00:08:28   So good at all.

00:08:29   Thank you, Sam, for the still thought question.

00:08:31   I appreciate it.

00:08:31   Well, that brings us to some follow-up.

00:08:36   I thought, okay.

00:08:39   That is just say it out loud, say it out loud.

00:08:43   Follow up.

00:08:43   I wanted to talk about what we, oh, I didn't want to talk about it.

00:08:47   How about that?

00:08:48   Here's follow-up that I don't want to talk about, but I feel like we are obligated.

00:08:53   Yeah.

00:08:54   To talk about it.

00:08:56   So when I was in New York, I watched that video like everybody else.

00:09:00   And we were in a group and it kind of no reaction to the crush ad that everybody was talking about afterward.

00:09:08   And in going back, I remember having some negative feelings about it.

00:09:14   They were mostly about my feelings about the actual objects being used in the commercial being destroyed, especially the piano.

00:09:23   I was like, oh man.

00:09:25   I hope that piano like was really busted because they, they crushed it in a press and I don't, I don't love it.

00:09:33   But I didn't really think anything more of it.

00:09:35   And then it became part of the discourse.

00:09:36   And everybody started talking about how it was representative of how big tech was destroying creativity, which is really funny because.

00:09:46   I'm sure Apple didn't intend it that way at all.

00:09:49   And Apple really does legitimately think that it's a partner of an enabler of creative people and that that project, that commercial was literally trying to get that across.

00:09:58   And they, they ended up having it really backfire on them.

00:10:01   But I think it shows.

00:10:03   Seems to me that it shows like Apple not understanding.

00:10:07   How it's viewed.

00:10:10   And I don't want to draw too much of a parallel to some of Apple's business decisions in terms of playing hardball with developers and dealing with regulators and all of that.

00:10:21   But I do think there's a line running through both of these stories, which is Apple still really fancying itself the underdog and the champion of the masses.

00:10:34   When in fact it is actually a top dog and a big shot and, uh, and that's, I think that's maybe one explanation for how you create an ad that misreads the vibe in the room.

00:10:46   Cause I think that's for me, that's the big.

00:10:49   Offense here is that I think they didn't get the, nobody apparently with any, at least any, any say, so raise their hand and said, you know, people are really concerned about big tech initiatives.

00:11:04   Crushing creative jobs right now.

00:11:07   Yeah.

00:11:08   And, uh, yeah, so I think they, they really misread the room.

00:11:12   What do you think?

00:11:13   Yeah, I think so too.

00:11:15   Uh, I agree with you on, on first watching, like just during the stream, it jumped out at me a little bit, but then obviously the headlines started coming out and this like made the New York times, the Wall Street Journal.

00:11:27   This wasn't just like us, you know, kind of playing on our level.

00:11:31   It was, you know, mainstream news for better or for worse.

00:11:35   And my first thought was, well, that, that feels like maybe some misdirected anger.

00:11:40   I thought about like, well, you know, something like garage band has had virtual instruments forever.

00:11:45   This is just sort of a riff on, on that idea.

00:11:49   But the more I've thought about, especially over the weekend, the more I've realized that I think what you said is right, that they did.

00:11:59   Whoever made the ultimate decision, you know, we don't know the debates that happened.

00:12:02   I would like to think some people at Apple saw this coming and maybe were overruled, which is unfortunate.

00:12:07   But yeah, clearly they, they, they don't understand the vibe.

00:12:13   And what makes that potentially way more troublesome is that we are now as of today, four weeks away from WVDC where Apple's expected to introduce a bunch of generative AI features.

00:12:29   Yeah.

00:12:29   Across their OSs.

00:12:31   And you said it really well, I just want to highlight it.

00:12:34   Apple's best work in a lot of ways is empowering creative people to, to do their jobs.

00:12:40   And those people are worried about this and they view Apple as, you know, the company that kind of gets them or maybe at least used to get them.

00:12:51   And this is going to drive a pretty big wedge in that.

00:12:54   I think in a lot of ways, the world's reaction to this ad could be a warning shot for Apple of what to expect at WVDC.

00:13:05   Now, Google goes first, right?

00:13:07   Google IO is before WVDC.

00:13:09   I think IO is this week.

00:13:10   We may, we may see a little bit of that.

00:13:14   But I think with Apple, it is going to be different and potentially worse because Apple positions itself as the company that makes cool stuff.

00:13:24   For creative people.

00:13:26   And I just don't know how you circle that square.

00:13:28   And if I were Apple, I would be looking at these reactions and really carefully considering how they frame these features that are going to be coming in just a month.

00:13:37   So I have a theory, which is that I think maybe this is a blessing in disguise for Apple.

00:13:44   I mean, they came out and apologized.

00:13:45   They had their VP of marketing, Tor Meren, basically said, we're sorry that we want to celebrate creatives.

00:13:54   We missed the mark.

00:13:55   Having it be not an unnamed person.

00:13:59   Like that's good.

00:14:00   It was textbook damage control, right?

00:14:03   Like what you want to do is move on.

00:14:05   And so I heard some people were like, I can't believe they apologize for that.

00:14:09   And it's like, you know what?

00:14:11   This is how you do it.

00:14:13   It's like, look, it obviously doesn't matter what you don't want to do is get in an argument.

00:14:17   It's like, no, you don't understand.

00:14:18   That's not what we meant.

00:14:20   You got it wrong.

00:14:22   Think again.

00:14:22   Like, no, you just say, I'm sorry.

00:14:24   It obviously, cause it obviously didn't work, right?

00:14:26   It obviously rubbed a bunch of people the wrong way.

00:14:29   And once you call attention to it, then everybody else is going to see it in that lens.

00:14:33   And then it's over.

00:14:34   But I think maybe it is a warning to them that they can now take heat of and that maybe having

00:14:43   it happen in this sort of footnote to a footnote, an iPad event, but a month before WWC might

00:14:52   be a wake up call to say, oh, those of us are again, cause Apple is not a monolith.

00:14:58   Apple, there are people inside Apple who totally get what's going on here and they were not

00:15:02   listened to.

00:15:03   So this gives them voice to say, we really need to be careful about this because everybody

00:15:10   is wary of big tech, ruining jobs with AI and destroying creative processes with AI.

00:15:17   I also feel like Apple, Apple's whole thing, and we've talked about it on so many podcasts

00:15:22   over the years, Apple's whole thing is that they have been using what they called machine

00:15:26   learning, which is what we would now call AI all along, but they productize it.

00:15:30   They put it in features.

00:15:31   They say, oh, here's a feature to make your photos look better.

00:15:35   And what they're not doing is saying, here's a thing that means you don't need to have

00:15:38   an expert take pictures for you or edit your photos later.

00:15:45   It's more like, well, no, you're shooting your own photos.

00:15:47   You press the button.

00:15:48   Even something like the features that they announced in Logic last week, cause they've

00:15:54   done that drummer, which is an AI drummer for a while now.

00:15:57   And they added a bassist and a keyboard player.

00:16:00   I'm surprised that that didn't come in for more scrutiny and spite from people saying,

00:16:04   oh, you're taking jobs and all that.

00:16:06   But then again, the way the feature is pitched is it's not so you don't ever need to hire

00:16:11   a drummer.

00:16:12   It's that you're somebody who is alone in your room making music and you want it to

00:16:18   sound better cause you're making a demo.

00:16:20   And if you become famous, then probably you won't use the Logic drummer anymore.

00:16:24   Yeah.

00:16:25   You'll hire a drummer.

00:16:26   You'll hire a drummer.

00:16:27   And I think that's an important distinction, right?

00:16:29   It's like, it's not meant to take jobs away from creative people.

00:16:32   It's actually meant to enable creative people to make their work better.

00:16:37   And I know that's a fine line.

00:16:39   So I feel like Apple of all companies is probably not banking on AI as a replacement for creativity.

00:16:49   They're probably already pitching everything as ways to make creative people work better,

00:16:57   you know, more productive, but not like remove that spark.

00:17:01   And that's good.

00:17:01   And now they've gotten this warning shot because they do need to tread carefully here.

00:17:07   But I do, I think with this warning, I would, I would be shocked if they weren't going through

00:17:12   everything that they were planning, all the, all the scripts, whatever they've even already

00:17:16   shot for WWDC and saying, how do we let's, let's just go over all of it and see what

00:17:22   are we stepping in here and are there things we can change?

00:17:24   And so on that front, they're lucky that they've got a month to maybe back off or at

00:17:31   least analyze some of what they're going to announce and not through the lens of the people

00:17:37   are uneasy about big tech and AI right now.

00:17:41   And you are big tech and AI, even if you don't, you're like, oh no, no, we're different.

00:17:45   It's like, they don't think you're different.

00:17:47   So keep that in mind the whole time.

00:17:49   No, I think, I think that's well said.

00:17:52   I think the last thing I would tack onto that is I suspect if they had any really visual

00:17:58   elements of that, that they will be toned down during the keynote.

00:18:01   I think one reason this ad hit the way that it did is that you're seeing all these beloved

00:18:06   objects be destroyed.

00:18:08   And, you know, several people did it.

00:18:10   It's floating on social media, running the ad in reverse is like extra kind of a better

00:18:15   ad in a lot of ways.

00:18:16   But I think, I think a large part of the reaction of this is we, we see it, right?

00:18:21   We see these, these, in many cases, beautiful things be destroyed, whether they were real

00:18:26   or CGI or combination, who knows.

00:18:29   But I suspect if there was anything remotely like that in the keynote, that that is getting

00:18:35   cut out as we speak and that they're going to, I think you said it really, they're going

00:18:40   to pitch this kind of the way they pitched.

00:18:43   I mean, I went back and actually skimmed the original like garage band announcement.

00:18:46   It's like, yeah, this lets you do things you couldn't do before.

00:18:50   That's the best way to pitch a feature from Apple's perspective.

00:18:53   And they just, they missed that in this ad.

00:18:56   And yeah, I think in the long run, I'm sure it's painful right now for them to be dealing

00:19:02   with this, but I think you're right.

00:19:04   Long-term this may have been a good thing that it was just the iPad and not the new version

00:19:09   of the software that's going to be on a bajillion iPhones in the fall.

00:19:12   Yeah.

00:19:13   Well, we're, we're not arguing, I think, for the fact that this was a, a huge, like huge

00:19:19   mistake that offended us.

00:19:20   Like I, the ad didn't bother me that much.

00:19:22   But the point is it misfired like, and it doesn't, again, it doesn't matter.

00:19:28   You could be like, well, actually it's fine.

00:19:31   Like it doesn't matter.

00:19:32   It's an ad it's marketing.

00:19:33   It's meant to engender a certain kind of feeling.

00:19:35   It engendered the opposite feeling.

00:19:37   So as a result, it fundamentally, it failed, even if it worked for you or it didn't bother

00:19:41   you it.

00:19:42   And I think performed a service to Apple of saying, you need to be a lot less complacent

00:19:48   about your, your relationship, your place in the tech pantheon and your relationship

00:19:53   with creative people.

00:19:54   Cause everybody's a little uneasy.

00:19:56   And I, you know, I think Apple could learn that lesson more broadly.

00:19:59   I think that Apple still behaves very much like an underdog and doesn't understand how

00:20:03   it's it's received, which is as a massive, rich, powerful gatekeeper that has complete

00:20:10   control over so many aspects of people's lives.

00:20:13   I think they just don't want to think of themselves that way, but they are that.

00:20:16   And I think it leads to them making, doing things that you shouldn't do when you're the

00:20:22   top dog, you should only really do when you're the underdog and it's led them down a difficult

00:20:26   path, but certainly in terms of the AI issue and, and its relationship with creative professionals,

00:20:31   it's a, it's a little bit, I would think of a shock to the system.

00:20:34   And I hope that they, they follow from that because I do believe that Apple fundamentally

00:20:40   does think of itself as an enabler of creative people.

00:20:44   And that's why this ad, you know, just was a, was, was a misfire because they misread

00:20:51   the, they didn't read the room, right?

00:20:52   Like ultimately I think that if this had been released two years ago or four years ago, it

00:20:56   wouldn't have had this kind of uproar, but, but we live in a time where we're, every,

00:21:01   everybody's kind of on a knife's edge about this stuff and Apple needs to be super careful

00:21:06   about how it calibrates this.

00:21:07   All right, Steven, I'm going to bring in Federico and you're gonna, you're gonna go away for

00:21:13   a little bit.

00:21:14   Okay.

00:21:15   But, um, but just hang on.

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00:23:08   And really FM.

00:23:09   I'm now joined in this segment by yet another connected host who is not Mike.

00:23:17   It is Federico Vitice from Mac stories.

00:23:19   Hi Federico.

00:23:20   Hello Jason.

00:23:21   How are you?

00:23:22   It's uh, I'm doing okay.

00:23:23   Uh, it's been a busy weekend.

00:23:25   Yes.

00:23:26   Um, there's been a lot going on.

00:23:28   Thank you for being here and not just being a ghost.

00:23:31   Of course.

00:23:31   This time in the flesh.

00:23:33   People can see me.

00:23:34   It's Federico present.

00:23:37   Not a ghostly apparition from the future.

00:23:39   So this is the iPad pro review episode.

00:23:43   I reviewed the iPad pro and we're releasing this at embargo time.

00:23:46   This, this whole episode, which is exciting.

00:23:49   Um, I, I first need to say, um, I'm very happy to talk about iPad things with you.

00:23:55   Oh, likewise.

00:23:56   Um, it's, I felt like this is, I thought we, we would both be, um, working away on our

00:24:02   own things about the iPad pro, but a series of events occurred.

00:24:05   Um, and you didn't get an iPad photo review.

00:24:08   So no, which I'm really sorry about.

00:24:11   So you will, well, you did write a different article.

00:24:13   So we're going to talk about that in a little bit, but I wanted to start with.

00:24:16   The iPad pro because I can talk about it now.

00:24:19   I spent the last four or five days working on an iPad pro a hundred percent of the time,

00:24:24   which I don't, I usually do that when I travel.

00:24:27   Um, uh, or I have done that when I travel haven't in a little while, but, um, I just,

00:24:32   even at home, other than a couple of podcasts where I, where I just didn't want to bother

00:24:37   my co-hosts, I basically been using the iPad pro as my only device for the last four or

00:24:42   five days.

00:24:43   Okay.

00:24:43   So, uh, obviously I read your review.

00:24:45   Um, so, and, and I made some notes for questions that I want to, that I want to ask you, uh,

00:24:50   before we get started.

00:24:51   So which model did you get?

00:24:53   Which version?

00:24:54   I have, and it matters more than, um, more than maybe you would think.

00:24:58   So it's the 13 inch.

00:25:00   I got to keep saying 13 inch.

00:25:02   Not 12.9 anymore.

00:25:03   Not 12.9 in space black, which is a little bit darker, just like the other space blacks.

00:25:09   Yeah.

00:25:09   Even though even the, um, accessories that we think of the dark gray of the outside of

00:25:15   the keyboard, it is darker.

00:25:18   I mean, I'm not quite sure I'd call it black, but it's, it's, it's darker than it was.

00:25:25   It is.

00:25:25   Yeah.

00:25:25   It's a darker gray.

00:25:26   Approaching black, but never quite reaching it.

00:25:29   Yes.

00:25:30   How many shades?

00:25:31   Apple is getting up there in the number of shades of gray that it's got.

00:25:34   It's not the 50 yet, but that title was not taken.

00:25:37   Um, oh man.

00:25:38   Yeah.

00:25:39   50 shades of space gray.

00:25:41   Oh boy.

00:25:41   But yeah, sure.

00:25:44   That's an amazing, it's actually not that interesting.

00:25:46   It's just a story about Apple's pro hardware.

00:25:48   Um, and it's a one terabyte model, which cause Apple is not going to send me one with a disabled

00:25:53   CPU and less Ram.

00:25:55   They want the full experience.

00:25:57   So it's the, uh, the one and two terabyte models for those who do not know are the ones

00:26:01   that have the fourth performance core on the M4 processor and have 16 gigs of Ram instead

00:26:07   of eight.

00:26:07   So it's a pretty sizable spec difference when you go from, um, from the bottom two tiers

00:26:14   to the top two, it's no longer really a storage tier.

00:26:16   It's a storage and CPU and Ram tier.

00:26:20   So we should probably stop thinking of it as a storage tier.

00:26:23   Right.

00:26:24   Right.

00:26:26   So how does it feel like that's, that's the first question that I want to ask you coming

00:26:30   from the 12.9.

00:26:31   Um, the, the, the reduction in terms of thickness and weight, like, uh, after, because I've

00:26:38   only spent like 20 minutes with it when I was in London, but using it for five days,

00:26:42   how does it feel coming from the previous version?

00:26:45   It is.

00:26:46   Yeah.

00:26:46   Because I, I have been using the larger iPad pro since there was only the larger iPad pro

00:26:52   that first model and I bought it and I have been used those 2015 and that's been my iPad

00:26:58   ever since.

00:26:58   You never downgraded to the 11 inch.

00:27:01   I never did.

00:27:02   I occasionally pick up Lauren's 11 inch cause she's got the 11 inch and I pick it up and

00:27:06   go, Oh wow, this is, this is really nice and light.

00:27:09   And then I look at the screen and go, Hmm, it's kind of a small screen.

00:27:11   And then I go back to the 13.

00:27:14   So, so I've always had the, the bigger iPad.

00:27:17   Um, yeah, you know, the, I think the big problem is my theory.

00:27:21   I think the big problem with the larger iPad is that it's not just the weight.

00:27:24   It's the fact that the way to spread across so much more surface area, that by the time

00:27:28   you get to the far end, you know, you're actually getting kind of a lever effect where

00:27:32   the weight is so far out that it's pulling your hand down.

00:27:35   It makes it feel, and plus it's a little bit ungainly.

00:27:39   It's like, uh, just hard to, it's just, there's more of it.

00:27:43   And it's, so it's more to move around and it's a little bit more clumsy in those ways.

00:27:48   And obviously this hasn't changed those dimensions at all, but I will say it is lighter.

00:27:53   I think lighter is the thing that matters.

00:27:55   I think it's really funny that Apple talks about the thinness.

00:27:57   I actually asked them in one of my briefings, I said, I said, are you really solving for

00:28:03   thinness?

00:28:03   Cause it seems like lightness is the more important thing when it comes to this product.

00:28:07   And their response was very typical Apple.

00:28:10   It was, we are solving for thinness and lightness.

00:28:12   I'm like, okay, right.

00:28:13   Yeah, you can do everything.

00:28:15   Okay, fine.

00:28:17   But, um, so the thinness, I mean, it's noticeable.

00:28:21   And although I would say I usually use this thing in a, in a case, it's either in the

00:28:26   magic keyboard or it's in the smart folio.

00:28:29   Which you also got, which I got in black.

00:28:31   Okay.

00:28:32   That one's actually just black.

00:28:33   Um, because they didn't want to give me denim, a very exciting, not exciting blue.

00:28:37   My current one is I got the orange smart folio.

00:28:41   I'm going to really miss that if I have to give that one up.

00:28:43   Cause the orange is, that was a good color.

00:28:45   I had one of them.

00:28:46   It's a good color.

00:28:47   Yeah.

00:28:48   So I, I, I like the thinness fine, but it isn't as apparent even, you know, it is thinner

00:28:57   than the old one in the folio, but it makes it feel less than to do that.

00:29:01   I have to admit, I did take off the folio sometimes and just use it completely with

00:29:07   uncovered completely naked.

00:29:08   It was naked.

00:29:10   And, um, 50 shades of space gray again.

00:29:13   There's a lot of nudity going on here.

00:29:15   It is amazing, right?

00:29:18   It's amazing that it's that thin.

00:29:19   But even then I would argue that the thinness doesn't really matter.

00:29:22   Like I'm never pinching my fingers together and going, Oh, I wish my fingers were closer

00:29:26   together with the iPad in between.

00:29:28   I just, right.

00:29:30   I never, so it's the weight and the weight is, I mean, on that large one, it's more than

00:29:34   a quarter of a pound.

00:29:34   It's an enormous difference in weight for something that was already fairly light.

00:29:39   And that to me is where it makes the difference is every time I pick it up, it's just a little

00:29:43   bit lighter.

00:29:43   It's a little bit less difficult to move around.

00:29:47   And it means that when you put it in the magic keyboard, you get something that's basically

00:29:54   the weight of a MacBook air, which is, I think what they should have been shooting for all

00:29:59   along.

00:30:00   Okay.

00:30:01   Okay.

00:30:01   So, uh, would you say that compared to the previous one, it's more usable, like as a

00:30:07   one handed tablet, um, compared to the previous gen or still like, because it's so large,

00:30:13   like it's still kind of, kind of awkward, more usable and less awkward, but like it's a continuum,

00:30:19   right?

00:30:19   I don't think that I would say, Oh, it solved the, the awkwardness problem.

00:30:26   It's still a very large screen, but the screen is so beautiful.

00:30:29   I mean, really that's the trade-off and it's been the trade-off all along is that that

00:30:33   smaller model feels so good to hold, but it's a much smaller screen than the, than the big

00:30:39   model.

00:30:40   And I really do enjoy having the screen.

00:30:42   I think, um, we'll talk about the magic keyboard in a little bit, I think.

00:30:45   But, um, one of the things that I was reminded of when I was in New York is that I don't

00:30:51   like typing on the 11 inch magic keyboard.

00:30:53   I just think it's, it's a little too, yeah, I think it's too cramped.

00:30:57   So one of the things that would drive me toward the 13 is that I do use the magic keyboard

00:31:02   and I love the 13 inch magic keyboard, um, size and it feels very much like a MacBook

00:31:07   air.

00:31:08   And the 11 just is a little too compact for me.

00:31:11   It just, my, my fingers don't feel comfortable on it, but I would say, yeah, I mean, any,

00:31:15   anytime you make it lighter and thinner, it's going to be less awkward.

00:31:20   And, and so I would say, you know, it's better, it's better, but it doesn't, I can't say it

00:31:27   just solves the problem where you don't have to worry about it and you can just use a 13

00:31:31   inch iPad pro and it's, and it's fine.

00:31:33   It's still, I mean, it's still big, but, um, the lighter it gets, it's why I keep coming

00:31:38   back to lighter.

00:31:38   I don't actually care that it's thin.

00:31:40   I do care a lot that it's light because that really makes a difference.

00:31:44   Right, right.

00:31:45   And it's not like suddenly became an iPad mini that it's so comfortable to hold that

00:31:50   it feels like a small tablet because you're still holding a 13 inch display.

00:31:53   Right.

00:31:53   After all, it is, I mean, holding it without any, any case on it at all.

00:31:57   It really is amazing because it does, you do start to get that feeling that you can

00:32:03   almost see Apple's vision for it as a, um, as a, just a sheet of glass, an intelligent

00:32:09   sheet of glass.

00:32:10   It is starting to really reach that point where when you're holding it and it's thin

00:32:15   and it's light and it's this huge screen that you start to think I'm just holding a

00:32:20   screen.

00:32:20   Like there's nothing, where's the computer here.

00:32:23   It's really kind of amazing, but you know, in real life it's in a case and it's, uh,

00:32:30   yeah, and it's better.

00:32:31   It's less awkward, but still a little bit because it's so huge.

00:32:34   Right.

00:32:35   Speaking of the display, so obviously the big change here is OLED, specifically tandem

00:32:40   OLED.

00:32:41   Um, so in reading your review, you pointed out, I mean, obviously the colors, the brightness,

00:32:45   the true blacks.

00:32:47   Um, but you also mentioned that OLED is even noticeable in the iPad OS UI itself.

00:32:53   So like, can you elaborate on this?

00:32:55   Like where did you notice, like just simply working on your iPad that the screen was better?

00:33:00   Yeah.

00:33:00   I had the moments for me, it was since I'm a writer.

00:33:03   Um, it was in the text in text editing where I had a text editor, which was just black

00:33:09   text on a white background and it feels sharper.

00:33:14   And I don't, I know that the OLED itself should not be sharper than the old one, but I think

00:33:20   what's happening is that that black text is black.

00:33:24   Right.

00:33:25   And before actually, yeah, you're getting the better contrast between the, right.

00:33:30   Cause the, the, the mini led backlighting on the 12 inch, 12.9 inch, sorry, but that 12

00:33:35   inch isn't even a thing.

00:33:36   12.9 inch, uh, last generation iPad pro last two generations that, that backlighting scheme

00:33:43   was good.

00:33:44   It was better than what was on the 11 inch and it had blooming because it had whatever

00:33:49   2,500 local dimming zones, but on OLED, every pixel is its own dimming zone.

00:33:55   So it's a pretty dramatic difference.

00:33:57   And, and so, um, so overall, like the OLED screen impressed me, but I was coming from

00:34:03   a closer place to it than somebody who's using an, any other iPad pro where, where you didn't

00:34:09   get that, that mid, the mid range step to a mini led backlight that really did help a

00:34:14   lot, even though it wasn't perfect.

00:34:16   But I could still tell, yeah, I just had those moments where I was, I was writing and I was

00:34:20   looking at the black text on the screen and thinking what it's different.

00:34:25   What is it about that?

00:34:26   And, and that's what it is.

00:34:28   It's gotta be what it is, is that the black text is truly black.

00:34:32   The white background was truly white.

00:34:34   And that if you do a reversal and you're using something like ivory in OLED mode, the black

00:34:40   background is completely black.

00:34:42   Although in OLED mode, the, in ivory, the way the theme works, the text is gray, which

00:34:47   kind of bothers me.

00:34:48   I, I, I kind of like the complete, I know some people don't like the look, but I kind

00:34:53   of enjoy the complete contrast of black on white or a lot of people, I guess, prefer

00:34:58   sort of gray on black or, or black on gray.

00:35:03   I, I, I, I like, I like it.

00:35:05   So anyway, that, that, and then, you know, I've got background pictures that have blacks

00:35:10   in them and they're just black.

00:35:12   Now the, the, the, the contrast ratio difference is so dramatic.

00:35:16   And, and like I said, the, the dimming zones mean that it was pretty good before on my

00:35:22   iPad pro on the M1 and M2 generation.

00:35:25   But it's just, you, it surprised me.

00:35:29   It came at me in surprising moments where I would look at something and think, what

00:35:32   am I seeing there?

00:35:34   Oh, right.

00:35:34   It's gotta be that this is another function of, of OLED and you know, a sci-fi movie or

00:35:40   TV show on playing on the screen.

00:35:43   I watched a few of those, I watched Star Trek.

00:35:45   I watched Dr. Who.

00:35:46   And you know, whenever you've got a space scene, like the space is very black and the

00:35:51   stars are light, like little white pinpoints or the lights on the spaceship are little

00:35:55   white pinpoints.

00:35:56   And you don't have that kind of hazy glow around them.

00:35:59   Like you do on the, on the mini led version.

00:36:01   Very nice.

00:36:03   Did you get the glossy version or the nano texture?

00:36:05   It's the, it's the untextured, the, the, the just pure glass glossy version.

00:36:09   I just, I, I saw the nano texture in New York and you saw it in London.

00:36:15   And what, what I thought was interesting is that I got the distinct impression from people

00:36:20   I talked to at Apple that they're positioning it as not for everybody.

00:36:25   They're like, if you, if you don't know you need it, you don't need it because I think

00:36:29   they know that it undercuts what the OLED looks like.

00:36:32   You're, you're putting a haze on front of, in front of that OLED, but what you get is

00:36:36   the ability to use in bright sunlight.

00:36:38   So I think their vision is for it to be for like cinematographers and editors and photographers

00:36:42   who are out in the field in bright sunlight and just can't work without it.

00:36:47   But mine was just regular.

00:36:49   And like, you know, I used it in my house and in my backyard and on a trip, actually,

00:36:54   one of the things that was nice was I was traveling this weekend, which was really lousy

00:36:58   in the sense that I had a Monday embargo and I had to, I was visiting, we were visiting

00:37:02   our kids up in Oregon.

00:37:03   And it, it, I didn't love the fact that I had a very limited amount of time to write

00:37:09   this review and I had to travel at the same time.

00:37:12   So I warned my family, I was like, I'm going to have to do some iPad things.

00:37:14   And I, I they went off and did something on Saturday afternoon and I worked.

00:37:19   At a, at a an outdoor beer garden, actually.

00:37:23   And yeah, it was warm.

00:37:25   It was sitting outside and using the magic keyboard and writing.

00:37:30   Then later I I also did a podcast and and I recorded that in the hotel basically.

00:37:40   And and then I posted it in the car, in the back of the car, as we were driving down the

00:37:45   freeway to see my son who lives down in Eugene at the university.

00:37:50   My daughter lives in Portland.

00:37:52   And in both of those instances, I thought about, I actually thought about you and you

00:37:57   writing about how you were driven to the iPad specifically because you needed the portability

00:38:01   of it.

00:38:02   And so this, this trip to Oregon this weekend actually proved to be a good time.

00:38:06   I wouldn't have chosen it for personal reasons, but it was actually a really great time to

00:38:10   focus on using the iPad because the thing that the iPad does so well is that mobility

00:38:15   that I was able to travel.

00:38:16   I didn't travel with a laptop.

00:38:18   I just brought the iPad.

00:38:19   I was able to write thousands of words.

00:38:21   I was able to work outside at that at that place and in the back of the car, upload a

00:38:27   podcast to the internet using 5G.

00:38:29   And it, it all just was pleasant.

00:38:34   It was really nice.

00:38:35   And it's a very like even more than a laptop.

00:38:38   It is just a very, very capable device.

00:38:42   iPads in general, right?

00:38:43   Not this one in particular, but iPads in general, this is one of the great things about them

00:38:46   is that it can do all of these different things.

00:38:48   We can watch a movie on it and I can hold it in one hand, but I can also snap it into

00:38:51   that case.

00:38:52   And and it's a 5G laptop that I can, I can use it, you know, outside at a beer garden

00:38:58   or in the back of a car to post something to the internet.

00:39:01   Yeah.

00:39:02   What about battery life?

00:39:05   So we had the new bright display, it's thinner.

00:39:08   The battery's technically smaller than before, but is it the same as before?

00:39:14   Basically?

00:39:14   I think it's fine.

00:39:16   It seems to be the same.

00:39:17   They seem to have continued to solve for 10 hours as their goal.

00:39:20   I, I used it most of the day on Saturday on a single charge and I got back and I was still

00:39:26   at like 40%.

00:39:27   So it wasn't even close, but I wonder like, what do you think about this?

00:39:33   They, they clearly traded off the energy savings in the M4 to slice battery out of it to make

00:39:38   it thinner and lighter rather than being able to claim 15 hours.

00:39:43   Do you think they're solving for the right amount of battery power or do you think that

00:39:47   they need to, you know, maybe embrace a little bit more weight in order to get the battery

00:39:53   life up a little?

00:39:54   It's tricky because, um, ideally I would say, yeah, I want to have more battery life.

00:40:01   I don't care because I'm mostly going to use this in a magic keyboard and so it doesn't

00:40:05   necessarily matter.

00:40:06   But then for those times when you do want to use it as a tablet, uh, imagine if it was

00:40:10   thicker and heavier, like I do think that, like you mentioned, like solving for lightness

00:40:15   more than thickness is more important in the long run.

00:40:19   And especially if you have these large tablets and maybe down the road, even a larger tablet,

00:40:24   if they ever do one, uh, I do think that they need to prioritize making sure that it's

00:40:29   comfortable to use when you're not attaching it to a keyboard.

00:40:33   So it's, it's difficult, right?

00:40:34   Because on the one hand, 10 hours, I mean, you can get laptops that last 15 or more.

00:40:39   And so it's not as impressive maybe as it used to be, um, 10 years ago, but, um, actually

00:40:46   14 years ago, I guess at this point.

00:40:48   Yeah.

00:40:48   But at the same time, an iPad not getting lighter and not getting thinner, like especially

00:40:56   a 13 inch one, I don't know.

00:40:59   I don't think their decision is like of all their decisions with the iPad, the way I see

00:41:05   it, maybe this is the least controversial one.

00:41:08   I, while I was writing the article and you do this too with your, your reviews, I'm sure

00:41:12   you, sometimes you end up talking about it on a podcast, but sometimes you end up sort

00:41:16   of having a little argument with yourself as you're writing or as you're taking notes.

00:41:20   And I went back and forth with myself over the weekend, thinking about the battery life

00:41:26   and thinking about the weight.

00:41:29   And I, I think philosophically the product should be, I mean, John Syracuse always talks

00:41:38   about the naked robotic core, but I think there's something in there about thinking

00:41:42   about what the base product is and realizing that a user has to carry around the base product

00:41:49   a hundred percent of the time, whether they use the functionality you've built into it

00:41:54   or not, which is a strong argument that you should only build in functionality that really

00:42:00   matters to the widest selection of people, as long as there's an alternative.

00:42:06   So you can't plug in more Ram, you know, right?

00:42:09   Like there are lots of things you can't plug in or you wouldn't want to, but with battery

00:42:13   life, I do feel like 10 hours is enough.

00:42:18   And if it's not enough, you should have, you should be able to plug in or you should have

00:42:24   a, some sort of a power bank that you can use, but to weigh down every single iPad user

00:42:31   with additional battery that most of them probably won't use because most of them are

00:42:38   probably not going to drain it to zero in a scenario where they couldn't just plug it

00:42:43   in, I think would be a mistake, right?

00:42:45   Like I think in the end you're trying, if you're Apple, you're trying to please the

00:42:50   most people and they probably have the stats.

00:42:52   They probably know that it almost never happens that somebody drains this thing, goes from

00:42:56   full to draining it completely.

00:42:57   I mean, I do that at home, but I do that at home when I'm surrounded by plugs.

00:43:02   So I know that whenever it gets low, I can just plug it in.

00:43:04   It's very rare that I am somewhere in the field and can't plug it in and have no battery

00:43:11   left.

00:43:11   And if it's rare, it's probably on me to bring a charger for it, not on Apple to load

00:43:18   every single iPad down with that extra weight.

00:43:20   Yeah.

00:43:21   Yeah.

00:43:21   Yeah.

00:43:22   I agree.

00:43:22   The M4.

00:43:24   Did you notice any benefits compared to the M2 when you were just working with the iPad?

00:43:30   Was it a Safari snappier?

00:43:32   Oh yeah, snappier.

00:43:33   It is, although it's very hard to tell, right?

00:43:36   New iPad just migrated some files.

00:43:40   It seemed extremely fast, but it always does.

00:43:42   I did.

00:43:43   I think maybe I didn't get a lot of chance to do like, I got a beta of logic, but I just

00:43:48   did not have the time with the turnaround of this to try it out.

00:43:51   And I didn't spend a lot of time in something like Final Cut.

00:43:54   Although I, you know, I will, at some point I did edit a podcast in fair at recording

00:44:00   studio and do an export from there.

00:44:02   And you know, that export went really fast.

00:44:05   I mean, it is even, even an M2 is pretty darn fast on iPad OS.

00:44:10   So the M4, I feel like beyond your, you know, Final Cut and logics of the world and maybe

00:44:20   procreate.

00:44:20   I did some stuff in affinity designer as well, which was fine.

00:44:27   And that's a very powerful app.

00:44:29   Although fonts, iOS fonts, we'll talk about that later.

00:44:33   I had some real fun problems that slowed me down for half an hour.

00:44:37   But I suspect that, and I hope that there will be future versions of iPad OS that leverage

00:44:47   the M4 power more because it's the same old story, which is Apple comes out with an iPad

00:44:52   Pro and the chip is so powerful that it's never really going to be tapped by the operating

00:44:59   system, or if it is, it's going to be, you know, years before software really can take

00:45:04   advantage of it.

00:45:05   And I had, my personal iPad Pro is an M1 and I never even was motivated by the M2.

00:45:14   It doesn't feel slow in any real way.

00:45:17   So yeah, it's more powerful.

00:45:19   That's great.

00:45:20   I guess my biggest processor sucking app is probably Marvel Snap.

00:45:25   Because I've got it set to 60 frames a second and high quality graphics and all of that.

00:45:29   And it's janky.

00:45:30   It's a janky app.

00:45:31   It's got lots of weird flashes and blinks and things it's doing.

00:45:35   I don't even know what they're doing under the hood there, but it was smooth.

00:45:39   I mean, I'm not going to advocate anybody spent $1,200 on an iPad to play Marvel Snap,

00:45:43   but boy, that was pretty nice.

00:45:45   Well, you are kind of saying that.

00:45:46   Yeah, I guess I, yeah, that's right.

00:45:48   It's a video player.

00:45:49   Well, I mean, on one level, whenever we review these things, it's not my judgment about

00:45:54   how much money you want to spend.

00:45:55   I used to argue this back at Mac world.

00:45:56   There was a period where the old regime at Mac world would rate products down based on

00:46:01   their price.

00:46:02   And I said, well, wait a second.

00:46:03   We don't know.

00:46:04   We don't know what price people are going to get for this in the future.

00:46:07   And we also don't know what their budget is.

00:46:09   Shouldn't we rate it based on like people, human beings are going to adjust whether they

00:46:13   buy a product or not based on how much it costs.

00:46:15   We don't need to do that for them.

00:46:17   We should tell them whether it's good or not.

00:46:19   And so I think about that when I say like, I don't, it's more like, I don't know how

00:46:24   big the market is for, for a, just a video viewer that costs a thousand dollars, but

00:46:31   this is a really nice one, right?

00:46:32   If all it is like M4 is overkill, but like, if you really want an OLED video player that

00:46:37   you can hold in your hands, it's really nice.

00:46:40   And so I'm not going to judge you if you, if, if it's worth the money for you to do

00:46:44   that, then, then great.

00:46:46   Yeah.

00:46:47   I mean, maybe there's a professional Marvel snap player out there streaming Marvel snap

00:46:52   on Twitch and, you know, having an iPad with OLED that makes Marvel snap run better than

00:46:57   before.

00:46:57   Maybe it's a, maybe it's a good deal for them.

00:47:00   So is there anything else you want to mention about the hardware of the tablet itself before

00:47:05   we move on to the real hardware of the accessories?

00:47:08   I didn't notice much difference.

00:47:11   I did a FaceTime call with my mom for her birthday using the new position of the FaceTime

00:47:18   camera.

00:47:19   And it just feels so much more natural.

00:47:22   I always use it in that orientation.

00:47:25   So it, it, it was very nice.

00:47:27   I had a few moments where I had face ID fail me and I realized that I tend to hold the

00:47:34   iPad with the, um, the wrap of the keyboard or the, of the, of the smart folio up and

00:47:43   Apple totally wants you to have it down so you can have your pencil up.

00:47:47   And that means that the camera's at the bottom.

00:47:50   And so I had several times, why did you do that?

00:47:54   I was trying to unlock it.

00:47:55   I don't, I think honestly, I think it's because at some point I had a folio that wasn't, I

00:48:02   wasn't comfortable with like how strongly it was attaching magnetically.

00:48:04   And so if I held it down, then I was holding the folio against the back case.

00:48:10   Whereas if you hold it up, it can like pop off.

00:48:12   I don't know.

00:48:13   It's a bad habit.

00:48:13   I have to break myself of it.

00:48:15   But it meant that when I was flipping up to open, I was literally like flipping over the

00:48:19   face ID sensor and it yelled at me, or it was like down in my blanket.

00:48:23   I was waking up and I was like, no, no, no, pull it back up.

00:48:26   So I had to, I had to flip that around, but, uh, it's really nice to have it there.

00:48:30   And, um, and, and beyond that, I guess I would say, you know, there was Mike speculated about

00:48:37   MagSafe.

00:48:37   I've heard, you know, John Siracusa say there should be more than one port on it.

00:48:42   I think when I was doing a podcast and I had a microphone plugged into it and I realized

00:48:47   that I was glad I had 10 hours of battery life.

00:48:50   I thought, well, this is, this can be an issue.

00:48:53   And we gave the, that one port Mac book a hard time for it.

00:48:56   But I think the truth is I have to go back to what we said before, which is most people

00:49:01   don't need more than one port.

00:49:02   So I think you probably just need to put it on the people to get a hub, to get a dock

00:49:08   of some kind, if you really need to use it with many, many devices, because I don't,

00:49:13   you know, if they could put a second port on there and have it be no problem, but there

00:49:17   are probably a lot of compromises that would have to happen to get a second Thunderbolt

00:49:22   port on this thing.

00:49:23   And it seems, you know, unnecessary for most people.

00:49:27   So it doesn't, it doesn't bother me.

00:49:29   All right.

00:49:31   So magic keyboard and Apple pencil pro.

00:49:34   Let's start with the magic key.

00:49:37   Okay.

00:49:38   So I want to ask you about the function row.

00:49:40   This is the arguably, I think, along with the bigger trackpad, the, one of the most

00:49:46   important changes in this keyboard.

00:49:48   One of the things I noticed when I was testing the, the, the extra function row in London,

00:49:54   that was that I, I, a couple of times I sort of accidentally bumped into the lower edge

00:50:01   of the iPad when I was trying to access the function row.

00:50:04   Is that something that also happened to you or is it something that happens and then you

00:50:07   adjust?

00:50:08   I think there's probably some adjustment.

00:50:10   It never happened to me.

00:50:11   And I think maybe that has something to do with using it.

00:50:16   I mean, I don't know about the difference between the 11 and the 13.

00:50:19   There's possibly something there.

00:50:20   It also may be the, the, the angle that you're pointing it.

00:50:23   Maybe the angle that I was using was a little bit more kind of up because if you, if you

00:50:28   angle it lower down, it's going to lower itself down closer, but I never ran into that.

00:50:33   And I used it on a table and I used it in my lap and I never really ran into that.

00:50:39   What I did notice is on a very soft surface.

00:50:42   So at one point when I was doing that podcasting, I was on the bed in the hotel room.

00:50:46   And I put the iPad down on the bed and it was, the bed was a little, um, you know, the blanket

00:50:52   wasn't perfectly flat.

00:50:53   It was, it was just kind of moving around and it was a little bit soft.

00:50:56   And I put the iPad in the keyboard down and it flopped over backward.

00:51:01   And I realized this thing is balanced on the head of a pin.

00:51:05   Like it, it is balanced.

00:51:07   It isn't going to fall over backward in any normal circumstance, but the moment you shift

00:51:12   the weight a little bit back, it will fall over backward because it is.

00:51:16   They have, they have engineered that thing very precisely to stay upright.

00:51:20   And it will, but you know, it, it, a little bit off and it will, it will just kind of

00:51:26   go over the whole thing will just tip backward.

00:51:28   But I didn't have a problem reaching the function row and the function row.

00:51:31   It's great.

00:51:32   I was listening to music and I was like, oh, I don't, I, some of it was artificial, but

00:51:36   you know, I'm listening to music.

00:51:37   I'm like, I don't like this track.

00:51:38   I'm going to go to the next track.

00:51:39   It could be a little bit louder and it's kind of bright.

00:51:42   Let's make it a little bit different.

00:51:43   And just being able to do that while I was writing and keeping my hands on the keyboard

00:51:47   and not having to, you know, reach up and find the right control in order to get it

00:51:51   to all work, just really nice.

00:51:54   Although I will, I mentioned in the review, um, I can't believe that you can't adjust

00:52:00   the keyboard brightness via a keyboard shortcut, that there isn't a, you know, globe brightness

00:52:07   or command of those brightness keys because people, a lot of people don't even know that

00:52:12   it's backlit.

00:52:14   I'm not going to name names, but a recent relay podcast mentioned that the magic keyboard

00:52:19   is still, doesn't have backlighting.

00:52:20   And it's like, it's always had backlighting.

00:52:22   It's always been there, but you have to go to settings, keyboard, hardware, keyboard,

00:52:27   backlighting.

00:52:29   It's, it's so dumb.

00:52:30   That should be a, it should be in control center or it should be a keyboard shortcut.

00:52:35   Right.

00:52:35   That's the, so anyway, but I did use those keys.

00:52:39   Some more than others.

00:52:40   I didn't really use the dictation key, although it's there.

00:52:42   Quick lock is not a bad idea.

00:52:44   And I did use theirs, their expose key, basically that brings up the individual app view.

00:52:50   Like you're doing a swipe up.

00:52:52   And I, I use that a little bit too, but I prefer the trackpad gesture for that, but boy, it's

00:52:57   just really nice to adjust the volume.

00:52:58   And, and, uh, cause I have that, I've had that on my Mac for like 20 years keyboard

00:53:03   shortcut to con to adjust my music playback without thinking about it.

00:53:09   And then to not have that available at all on the iPad was, um, incredibly frustrating.

00:53:13   So I'm, I'm very happy.

00:53:14   And I didn't, I didn't really bump into the top of the iPad at all.

00:53:17   Nice.

00:53:18   Nice.

00:53:19   Uh, the trackpad.

00:53:20   So it's larger than before.

00:53:22   It seemed a bit taller than before basically.

00:53:25   Um, and it supports haptic feedback.

00:53:27   And I read in your review that Apple also sprinkled some haptic feedback here and there

00:53:32   in some of the built-in apps.

00:53:33   Like for example, when you're reordering, uh, songs in a, in an Apple music playlist,

00:53:38   I believe you mentioned, uh, you can feel a little haptic feedback going on.

00:53:42   Can you, can you explain what this feels like?

00:53:43   That's a little like a, uh, uh, that's the, the roller coaster ride of this feature is

00:53:48   the, if you want the demo of the haptic feedback in the trackpad on the magic keyboard,

00:53:53   rearrange items and up next in music, because every tick is a bump on the haptic.

00:54:00   So you'll, you'll drag a track down and it just goes, as it goes down.

00:54:06   But also if you do a long press, it will do a tap as it triggers.

00:54:11   Um, if you do a three finger swipe up as you bring it up, it will do a tap as it brings

00:54:18   up that multi, you know, the, the, the app switcher view.

00:54:21   Um, so it's not quite.

00:54:24   Oh, and there's an API.

00:54:25   So in, um, I forget what is it in numbers or maybe it's in, maybe it's the guides in

00:54:32   like keynote and pages, but there are some, there are some things like that too, where

00:54:37   there's a snap to guides happening where there's actually a little tap.

00:54:41   And I would say it's not quite as obnoxious as the one on the, on the desktop magic trackpad.

00:54:46   Um, these are right.

00:54:48   These are just little.

00:54:49   Grace notes.

00:54:51   They're a little accents.

00:54:52   They're not huge boosts to usability, but I think they're trying to go for a little

00:54:57   bit of delight as well as trying to make the user interface a little more tactile and that's

00:55:04   fine.

00:55:04   You can't turn it off.

00:55:06   So I hope you like it.

00:55:07   You can turn it off.

00:55:09   Not that I could find.

00:55:11   I think that they're on, I may, that may be a next version, OS feature to turn it actually

00:55:16   off.

00:55:17   Cause you know, obviously they built, that was one of the things they had to put in this

00:55:21   version of iPadOS in order to ship this thing was some of these specific features for the

00:55:26   magic.

00:55:26   Uh, keyboard, but, um, but yeah, it's so it's subtle, but as a, as a clicker, it works really

00:55:32   well.

00:55:33   Like it is just like with the laptops and the desktop magic trackpad where it doesn't

00:55:37   move anymore, but you wouldn't ever know it feels perfectly normal to click on it.

00:55:43   And, um, and I've definitely heard from people who've said that they, in a, in a quiet

00:55:47   space where they're endlessly clicking, using the old magic keyboard, everybody, they

00:55:52   feel, I think it's more internalized than it is reality, but they feel like they're

00:55:56   making these loud clicks in a quiet room with that moving trackpad.

00:56:01   And while that's gone, it doesn't, it doesn't make that noise.

00:56:04   It doesn't move anymore.

00:56:05   Now it's just doing a little vibration on your finger, but I think they did a good job.

00:56:08   I think it's executed really well.

00:56:09   And it's nice having a little more, you know, a little more, um, space for using your, for

00:56:16   your finger to move around on the trackpad.

00:56:18   I think that's nice too.

00:56:18   And that's why they've, that's why they pushed back.

00:56:21   Uh, you know, they use the decreased weight to push the cantilever back a little bit.

00:56:26   It sits further back.

00:56:29   I guess that arm of it is a little bit shorter so that it sits further back, um, so that

00:56:35   they can get that extra room on that plane, that keyboard plane for the, for the trackpad

00:56:39   and the function row.

00:56:40   Right.

00:56:41   What do you think of the new material, the new aluminum material in the sort of polymer

00:56:46   ester?

00:56:46   Yeah, it's really familiar.

00:56:47   I mean, they're basically making it feel like you're using a laptop, like a Mac book.

00:56:51   And I liked it.

00:56:53   I have no complaints.

00:56:55   It went from being a kind of different, you know, that different kind of rubbery feel

00:57:00   around the keys to being just like you're using a Mac book air.

00:57:05   It really, really does.

00:57:07   I think what's funny is that the other side of it is still the rubberized.

00:57:10   The rubber.

00:57:11   Yeah.

00:57:12   And that, that, which is fine.

00:57:13   I don't mind it.

00:57:15   Um, and I wonder about the long-term where on the port, cause like it feels very much

00:57:23   like you mentioned, you mentioned this in your story that there's an area where the

00:57:27   rubber backing sort of attaches to the metal base and you're concerned about the durability

00:57:32   of that.

00:57:32   It feels like that's an interface point that could wear badly.

00:57:36   And I wonder about like, is it, is it, are they glued on?

00:57:39   And I, we won't know, but I wouldn't surprise me if a year or two in.

00:57:45   People were looking at that and going, what's, what's going on here?

00:57:47   And Apple had to make some repairs or whatever.

00:57:50   Start coming apart.

00:57:51   Yeah.

00:57:52   That's my concern.

00:57:53   And again, it's just, when I looked at it, it's a, it's a very weird area where it

00:57:56   doesn't, it doesn't feel like there's a natural flow from one plane to the other.

00:58:00   It really is like one is just stuck on the other one.

00:58:03   And I hope they've tested that sufficiently and that they're confident that it's going

00:58:07   to wear okay.

00:58:07   Cause that's the thing that, that really bothered me.

00:58:10   But otherwise, you know, it's, it's, uh, on the outside, it's, it's super familiar.

00:58:13   I didn't have any problem opening it up.

00:58:15   It's opening it up is a little different.

00:58:17   Um, but I didn't have any problem.

00:58:19   I know some people, um, were, were a little concerned about that, but it seems pretty

00:58:23   reasonable to me.

00:58:24   Okay.

00:58:25   Uh, so what about the Pencil Pro?

00:58:28   Have you, I mean, you're not knowing you, you're not much of an artist.

00:58:32   Very bad.

00:58:33   Same.

00:58:36   But yeah, you did tell me that it's possible to program the Apple Pencil Pro, um, to run

00:58:44   a shortcut when you perform the squeeze gesture.

00:58:47   So maybe that's something you can use.

00:58:49   Yeah.

00:58:49   So there's a breaking news here.

00:58:50   Perhaps I'm the only ones who have done this.

00:58:52   I haven't done this yet, but yes, you can in settings set the squeeze gesture to, you

00:59:00   know, it can use PencilKit in apps that support that.

00:59:04   Um, you can also have it be an eraser.

00:59:07   Just say always have it be an eraser, but one of the functions is run a shortcut.

00:59:13   Interesting.

00:59:15   It's like a little action button, but for your Apple Pencil.

00:59:19   Yeah.

00:59:19   That's where the action button on the iPad Pro is.

00:59:21   It's on the Apple Pencil.

00:59:22   So I don't know.

00:59:23   Again, I have not done this cause I was so busy writing the review that I thought I cannot,

00:59:28   I cannot play with this, but I do wonder what.

00:59:32   What is that?

00:59:33   Like why, what would be the scenario where you'd run the shortcut, but, um, maybe you're

00:59:38   just, you know, not even drawing on the screen, you just kind of pick up your, your pencil

00:59:42   and squeeze it or maybe, maybe you're just, yeah, maybe you're just using it as a, as

00:59:46   a little squeeze remote shortcut.

00:59:49   Yeah.

00:59:49   Just point the thing at the screen and squeeze it and see what happens.

00:59:53   Yeah.

00:59:53   So, but I love that it's there.

00:59:55   Right.

00:59:55   I love that, that like they did not need to do that, but I think that they, for all of

00:59:59   the issues with shortcuts on iPad, um, I do like the idea that they seem to have philosophically

01:00:05   decided that they're going to build like these features into a, into a feature.

01:00:11   Like it can do ABC or D and then it's like, well, what else could we do?

01:00:14   They're like, well, I don't know, put a shortcut in there and then we'll see what, we'll see

01:00:18   what people do with it.

01:00:19   We can't wait to see what you do with it.

01:00:20   Yeah.

01:00:20   You can, it's so much more interesting or flexible.

01:00:25   I think if only shortcuts supported any kind of like context, like if I squeeze my Apple

01:00:31   pencil and I'm using Safari or if I squeeze my Apple pencil and I'm using, I don't know,

01:00:35   OmniFocus or something like that would be interesting.

01:00:38   I think to sort of tie that to some sort of a foreground window context.

01:00:44   I agree.

01:00:45   But yeah, so you just, you just set a shortcut and it's system wide.

01:00:49   So whenever you squeeze, you run that squeeze to do not disturb.

01:00:53   Sure.

01:00:54   You can do that.

01:00:55   Sure.

01:00:55   Why not?

01:00:55   I mean, why not?

01:00:56   So anything else about the pencil that you want to mention?

01:01:00   I mean, I, I added a podcast in fair, right?

01:01:02   It felt very familiar.

01:01:03   I think they ha I think the haptic speaking of haptics, I think the haptic has done really

01:01:06   well.

01:01:07   It just feels sort of natural.

01:01:08   I know that they said it's up in the top of the barrel, but it, it, it doesn't feel like

01:01:14   that.

01:01:14   They, the illusion is pretty, pretty solid.

01:01:17   I didn't really use barrel roll other than to just draw some things and badly and go,

01:01:21   Oh yeah, look at turns, but I'm sure that if you're an artist having the ability to use

01:01:26   non-circular brushes and, and vary them on the fly is good.

01:01:29   I would imagine that there'll be some very clever things that are used where you end

01:01:34   up using it almost like you're turning a knob where you're rotating the pencil in other

01:01:38   apps and it's, and it's scrubbing video or I don't know.

01:01:42   There are some other things that could probably be done with it.

01:01:44   I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward, obviously only a very small handful of apps were able to

01:01:49   build custom anything for it.

01:01:52   Most of them heard about it first last week and are going to now have to dig into those

01:01:55   APIs.

01:01:56   But I think that there's some potential there.

01:01:58   I, I, and I just, I love the Apple pencil.

01:02:00   I don't use it very often, but this one, it feels exactly like the old one in that it

01:02:05   is essentially a, a, an interface list object.

01:02:09   I think, I think, Mike and I might've talked about it last week, but I think in some, you

01:02:14   could argue in some ways that this is the ideal of Apple design, which is it's just an object.

01:02:20   It doesn't feel like a tech object at all.

01:02:22   It is, it is unrecognizable as a piece of technology other than like a pencil, a non-functional

01:02:28   pencil.

01:02:29   But it is actually packed with technology and is amazing.

01:02:32   Yeah.

01:02:34   You close your review with a pretty large section about iPadOS.

01:02:41   I do.

01:02:42   And the state of iPadOS.

01:02:43   I do.

01:02:44   So we've been having this conversation over the past, over the past few days.

01:02:49   And you, you, you obviously brought up a bunch of issues that you have run into when you

01:02:55   were trying to use your iPad Pro almost exclusively, I guess, over the past five days.

01:03:01   Right.

01:03:01   What's your sort of takeaway, you know, looking at this iPad, this brand new iPad Pro, incredible

01:03:11   technology, super thin, lighter than before OLED, one month before WWDC.

01:03:18   And you're working with this iPad Pro on iPadOS 17.

01:03:23   What's sort of your, your, your takeaway of this experience?

01:03:26   I, so we're, yeah, we're in a minute, we're going to talk about your piece, which is answering

01:03:33   everybody who asked us all last week, you keep saying the iPad has limitations.

01:03:37   What are they?

01:03:37   Cause I realized, and you realized that, you know, unless you literally have been reading

01:03:42   everything we've written and listened to every podcast we've done over the last five years,

01:03:46   you may have missed it and we haven't summed it up.

01:03:48   So I thank you for writing an article that sums it up.

01:03:50   And then, and then I went and wrote the end of my review and I was like, oh, I'm sort

01:03:53   of summing it up here a little bit.

01:03:54   But, uh, so before we get to your piece, I'll, I'll just say I was struck by how the iPad

01:04:03   really has gotten better over the last five years that I have not been pushing the iPad

01:04:09   as hard the last few years since COVID really, um, and Apple Silicon.

01:04:14   So the MacBook Air came out, I got a MacBook Air and I thought, well, I'll just travel

01:04:18   with this.

01:04:18   And so I haven't had to push it in all of those other areas, but you know, some of the apps

01:04:24   have progressed.

01:04:25   Some of the OS has progressed.

01:04:27   A lot of the things that bothered me, I, I, before I, before we get maybe a little more

01:04:31   negative about all the things that iPad OS does wrong, I will just say, I had a moment

01:04:34   where I thought I was going to have to pack.

01:04:37   I was like, do I need a card reader?

01:04:39   How do I get the, and I'm like, oh, no, I can literally attach my audio recorder via

01:04:47   the same USB cable to the iPad and it will see it as a, as an SD card.

01:04:52   It'll see it as a storage device and I can copy that file over and I can download the

01:04:58   zoom now supports a recording with all the individual tracks separate up in the cloud,

01:05:03   which it didn't use to do, which is a great way to do a backup of a podcast.

01:05:07   And I can download those files individually.

01:05:10   And in the last few years, there's a download manager in Safari and that file goes into

01:05:14   the files app and you can, and then I was able to very easily import those into fair,

01:05:19   right.

01:05:19   And edit my project.

01:05:21   And I thought, okay, like I remember traveling where I had like the SD card that was also

01:05:27   a wifi of its own so that I could use a custom app to copy it over to.

01:05:34   And, and, oh, it was so bad and it's, it's not that bad anymore, but you know, one of

01:05:41   the reasons I have to copy that file over is that I can't record my microphone and iPad

01:05:44   OS.

01:05:44   So like there's still those walls there, but I was just reminded that with the magic

01:05:48   keyboard and with the improvements that they made to files and with, I used a lot of

01:05:52   stage manager that it's a lot, it really has come a long way in five years.

01:05:57   I might argue that it's, there's huge pieces that are still kind of missing or broken.

01:06:03   And, and and we will do that after, after the next break.

01:06:09   But I was flashing back to when it was way less capable than it is even today.

01:06:16   And I was grateful that, oh yes, it behaves like a computer.

01:06:20   If I attach a disc to it, I can look at the files on the disc that didn't used to be

01:06:25   possible.

01:06:26   So better than it was better than I remember when I was trying to do all of this in

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01:08:29   All right, Federico, it's time for us to talk about your story now, which is not an iPad

01:08:38   Pro review.

01:08:39   It's not an iPad Pro review.

01:08:41   It's right there in the title.

01:08:43   It is the title of it.

01:08:44   It's on Mac stories right now.

01:08:46   We'll put a link in the show notes.

01:08:47   Because you didn't get it, which is sad because everybody wants to see a review of the iPad

01:08:52   Pro and including people like me who also write reviews of the iPad Pro, I do think

01:08:57   you did a good service for all of us who talk about the context of where the iPad is and

01:09:04   where it falls down.

01:09:05   Because you and I, I think both approach this device from a real position of appreciation

01:09:12   for all the things that it can do and its potential.

01:09:15   Yeah, it's the only computer I want to use and I just bought one.

01:09:23   So like, I'm committed.

01:09:25   Like this is my computer, but yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:09:29   So the service to listeners and readers that you performed is going into WWDC, which I

01:09:39   think is also important.

01:09:40   Like where are we with the current version of iPad OS?

01:09:43   And when we say that we're frustrated by its limitations, why when we say the hardware

01:09:48   is great, but the software doesn't match, a lot of people say, well, what do you mean?

01:09:51   It seems fine to me.

01:09:52   Right.

01:09:53   And we're like, oh, where do we start?

01:09:55   And so you were able to sort of like go through the details and it made me smile.

01:10:02   I mean, and also kind of be sad, but the details of what it still doesn't do, like individually

01:10:11   you could maybe shrug it off, but then there is also this just cumulative effect of just

01:10:17   a giant, like is it doesn't matter.

01:10:19   There's no calculator.

01:10:21   Well, no, you can get Pcalc or other calculators are also available, but why?

01:10:27   And preview and text edit and journal and Apple and sports.

01:10:31   Apple's launched a bunch of apps that don't even...

01:10:33   And font book.

01:10:34   Yeah.

01:10:34   Because of those fonts that you tried.

01:10:36   Oh, the fonts, which I rant about in my review a little bit that I had a big speed bump where

01:10:41   I couldn't get the right font to appear on my iPad and the way Apple didn't make it.

01:10:46   They were like, we support fonts now.

01:10:47   And we're like, yay.

01:10:48   But the detail is we support a font app section in the app store that doesn't seem to be there

01:10:53   or an API that allows apps to sideload fonts themselves.

01:10:58   So strange.

01:11:00   And they could just do something like font book and say, do you have a font file?

01:11:03   Well, it's installed now and they don't do that.

01:11:06   How did you feel writing this story?

01:11:09   Was it cathartic for you?

01:11:10   Did you feel like you're just get it all off my chest or was it more like a bad flashback?

01:11:16   It actually felt better than when I did the story on the original version of Stage Manager.

01:11:23   Like that story, I sort of, I really hated working on that story.

01:11:28   That was a low point.

01:11:30   Yeah, that was a low point.

01:11:30   Yeah, that was a low point.

01:11:32   No, this one actually was cathartic and it made me feel like I feel pretty good about the story.

01:11:37   Because yeah, the approach was basically, so every single time there's always like a new

01:11:42   iPad Pro review and it comes out and there's always that line, that sort of parenthesis

01:11:46   that says great hardware, but it's the software, you know?

01:11:50   And every, literally everybody says that.

01:11:52   And I say that and I mentioned, you say that, I would say, oh, the limitations of iPadOS.

01:11:57   And then I get that person of Mastodon who rightfully so is like, hey, the iPad works

01:12:02   great for me, what do you mean?

01:12:03   And so I thought, and that was literally my process of like, where do we even begin?

01:12:10   And I realized, well, let's begin.

01:12:11   Like, let's actually put it all together.

01:12:14   Like, at least from my perspective, my frustrations in a single story that one, can be useful

01:12:20   for me because like it's useful reference material to keep around.

01:12:24   And hopefully, somebody at Apple, anyone can maybe read the story and maybe understand

01:12:30   like once you lay it all out together, as you mentioned, like in isolation, those are

01:12:34   not probably huge issues.

01:12:36   But when you get that cumulative effect of like, oh, it's this small problem and this

01:12:41   small problem and this other small thing, like it starts, you know, it starts piling

01:12:46   up and it's not, it doesn't make for a pleasant experience to the point where you have these

01:12:50   features that have been semi-broken or just done halfway for the past decade of the iPad.

01:12:57   And I felt like it was time to finally just have it all out in a single story on the site.

01:13:05   - Yep, for me, and I ran it about this too, like you, like I sometimes get the, well,

01:13:11   what do you mean?

01:13:12   So it doesn't do podcasting, who cares that you're such a small niche.

01:13:15   It's like, I think that's fair, although I would make the argument and I do in my review

01:13:20   that what is pro workflow, but a big collection of small niches, right?

01:13:28   Like that's what, to be a pro product is to not explicitly support four workflows.

01:13:34   To be a pro product in my mind means you have to have the power and flexibility to support

01:13:39   all of the niche workflows because pros, there's no, like, what do you do?

01:13:42   I'm a pro, I do pro stuff, that's not it.

01:13:45   There's thousands of little tiny jobs.

01:13:47   - What's the American expression?

01:13:50   The rising tide that lifts all boats?

01:13:52   - Lifts all boats, sure.

01:13:54   - It's something like that where you need to-

01:13:57   - The little boats, the pros are the little boats.

01:13:59   - Exactly, exactly, the pros are the little boats and Apple is the rising tide, I guess.

01:14:04   - Yeah, something like that, or iPad features the rising tide.

01:14:06   I'm not quite sure, but it's that idea that it's not, well, it supports X, therefore it's pro.

01:14:10   It's more like it supports a range of things that different pros can use.

01:14:16   And I think that's where it falls down.

01:14:18   When I wrote my story, when I was visiting my mom and not using an iPad, I wrote the story

01:14:24   and basically said the problem fundamentally is that everything on the iPad only happens

01:14:28   because Apple says it's okay.

01:14:30   And that's not how you can build pro features.

01:14:33   So the podcast example, I can talk about the fact that it's silly that you can't do something

01:14:38   like audio hijack and just say, can I record my microphone, my USB microphone attached

01:14:42   to this iPad while I'm also in another app doing a video conference?

01:14:47   And the answer is no, because you can't do two things at once on a device with an M4

01:14:51   processor and 16 gigs of RAM that supports multitasking.

01:14:54   But the broader issue would be that the audio subsystem of iPad OS is incredibly,

01:15:02   I would say, laughably primitive.

01:15:03   And the general example, and you and I both used it, is you're playing a video, you're

01:15:09   playing some music.

01:15:10   This is where it bites me.

01:15:12   I'm playing some music and there's a little video clip in ivory posted on social media

01:15:19   somewhere.

01:15:19   And I just want to play the video clip.

01:15:21   And on the Mac, if I do that, what happens is my music keeps playing.

01:15:26   And on my Mac here in my office, my music keeps playing via AirPlay and then via the

01:15:31   Mac speakers, the audio and video from social media play.

01:15:35   On the iPad, when you do that, it says, hold on, stop the music.

01:15:40   You don't want to do things at once.

01:15:42   Stop the music.

01:15:42   You have to watch this video.

01:15:44   And then, and this is true.

01:15:47   And then when I'm done with the video, I press play on the magic keyboard and you know

01:15:50   what happens?

01:15:51   The video resumes.

01:15:53   It doesn't go back to my music because it's like, oh no, I'm playing social media videos

01:15:56   now.

01:15:56   That's what I'm doing.

01:15:58   It's so frustrating.

01:15:59   And so that's, I feel like that's our point with a lot of these things is it's not just

01:16:05   the detail.

01:16:06   It's that the detail is indicative of a larger issue where there's things that have been

01:16:10   left, as you said, either unimproved for years or a decade or more, or they do an update

01:16:18   like files.

01:16:19   You really have it in for files, which I think is totally fair.

01:16:22   Files.

01:16:23   I can say files is so much better than it used to be.

01:16:28   And is, is okay.

01:16:30   But everything you listed is like, this should be, this should have all been fixed over the

01:16:35   last five years.

01:16:36   And instead they sort of shipped files to where it is now and seem to have walked away.

01:16:41   Yeah.

01:16:42   Yeah.

01:16:42   And, and honestly that, that, that feeling, um, kind of applies to many, many other things

01:16:49   on iPad, especially multitasking.

01:16:51   Like, uh, it almost feels like institutionally Apple has a tendency to, to release iPad features

01:16:57   and then walk away for a couple of years and then come back after three years and be like,

01:17:01   Hey guys, we have a new feature for you on iPadOS.

01:17:04   And you're like, well, what about the previous one?

01:17:06   What, the previous one?

01:17:07   No, there's no previous feature.

01:17:08   Like it does feel something like that sometimes.

01:17:11   Um, and yeah, uh, like, um, I also wanted to mention these other points that I think

01:17:18   it's important, uh, because you and I, I think, uh, and, and Steve Trattensmith and a bunch

01:17:23   of other people who have been commenting on iPads for a while.

01:17:26   Um, we get this comment from people, you know, very often these days it's like, Oh, these

01:17:31   folks, they just want Apple to put Mac OS on the iPad.

01:17:35   And I mean, I am literally the person with the handmade convertible Apple laptop.

01:17:44   So it's, I mean, I did this myself, but I did it sort of out of desperation, right?

01:17:52   It's not like I want Apple to just put Mac OS on the iPad.

01:17:57   That was a sort of a self-made solution to the problem of the iPad software not getting

01:18:03   better.

01:18:04   Ideally, I would prefer Apple to keep developing iPadOS for iPad forever and to actually improve

01:18:13   it, you know, going forward.

01:18:15   I'm just saying that if, if that's not something that Apple thinks they can do, maybe it's

01:18:23   time to consider Mac OS on the iPad.

01:18:25   Conversely, if Mac OS on the iPad is absolutely a no-no from Apple, like we're never, ever

01:18:31   going to do it, you can't just let the iPad's operating system coast by, you know, without

01:18:37   these meaningful updates.

01:18:38   Something needs to change.

01:18:39   And that was sort of my, my, uh, conclusion of the story.

01:18:43   Something needs to change because this situation where Mac OS is no go for iPad, but also iPadOS

01:18:50   doesn't really receive substantial updates for pro users.

01:18:54   That's not working either.

01:18:55   So something, something's got to give eventually.

01:18:57   Steve said something that I thought was really interesting about how if you were to virtualize

01:19:04   Mac OS on iPad Pro at the high end, you know, with lots of limitations, one, one theoretical

01:19:11   advantage it gives you is it allows Apple to sell all the high-end hardware of the iPad

01:19:16   with a, with a sort of a release valve, a pressure release that gives it infinite time

01:19:22   to continue improving iPadOS until iPadOS reaches the point where it can, it could do

01:19:27   that.

01:19:28   Um, and I, you know, the, the, the counter argument would be, would they, but I agree

01:19:34   with you.

01:19:35   I, I am not.

01:19:36   I like the iPad.

01:19:38   So it took a lot for me to suggest maybe you should just virtualize Mac OS, but it came

01:19:43   from a place of being so worn down and, and kind of desperate to say, well, okay, I'm

01:19:49   bargaining with you, Apple.

01:19:50   If you're not going to be responsible enough to make iPadOS better in all of these ways,

01:19:55   if it does, if it goes against your philosophy, if it's not worth it because the pro user

01:20:00   base is such a small fraction of the overall iPad user base, that it's not worth the investment.

01:20:05   Maybe you should give up and just let people run Mac OS.

01:20:09   I don't think it's the best idea.

01:20:10   I think iPadOS should be better, but I could see the argument that, you know, most people

01:20:17   don't care about those features.

01:20:19   I, although I had the counter argument and I mentioned in my review, you absolutely went

01:20:24   into details about it.

01:20:25   One of the other things that really bugs me is background, um, tasks, which is a fundamental

01:20:30   from an iPhone that had no RAM and no processor and no battery.

01:20:36   And so they designed iOS in the early days to be very aggressively a unitasker and they

01:20:42   added very careful multitasking over time.

01:20:45   But, and this is, it's a power user feature, but it's not a power user feature because

01:20:49   all sorts of Mac users use background utilities, things that run a backup in the background,

01:20:55   things that are an alternative launcher or something like Hazel that watches your files

01:21:00   or a clipboard manager or something like the stream deck or any other peripherals that

01:21:04   need a thing that runs in the background to enable them to function.

01:21:07   All of those things or, or even global keyboard shortcuts.

01:21:12   So you can run a shortcut in at any point by hitting a keyboard command.

01:21:16   These are, yeah, they're power user ish features, but they also speak to like a broader

01:21:21   of flexibility of the operating system that other people can use.

01:21:26   Imagine if an iPad, a regular person could just download a clipboard manager and have

01:21:32   it work, but that's one of those things that requires a level of background operation that

01:21:39   iOS was never really designed for.

01:21:41   And yet, you know, how do you sell the iPad pro in 2024 and have it be completely unable

01:21:50   to run background software when it's one of the, like, it's not a nerdy thing.

01:21:54   It's a very common thing to run a menu bar app or something on Mac OS.

01:21:59   And yet on the iPad, it's just not there.

01:22:01   So I don't agree that it's just for like super computer nerds, but I think it makes your

01:22:06   whole platform richer.

01:22:08   And the fact that they can't do it just, I, you know, I don't, I, it's so frustrating.

01:22:14   So I want them to make iPad OS better.

01:22:16   And I know you do too, because that's talking about it.

01:22:20   Virtualizing Mac OS is like a hail Mary.

01:22:21   It is a desperation move to say, could, could this hardware be quickly made much more flexible

01:22:30   and like, I still think they could do it, but like, it's not the ideal outcome.

01:22:33   The ideal outcome is iPad OS gets better.

01:22:35   Yeah.

01:22:36   That's, that's what I hope will happen.

01:22:39   It's why I wanted to make it clear in the story that that is my ideal goal.

01:22:44   That is my hope for the future of the iPad.

01:22:47   And yeah, so now, now I have this article up there on Mac.

01:22:51   Thank you.

01:22:51   Sort of as a, as a, you're welcome as a, sort of as a captioning time of, of the, of the

01:22:57   problems and frustrations that we have experienced.

01:22:59   And it's, it's, it's there.

01:23:02   So I hate to say it, but it comes from a place of love.

01:23:06   We, we, those of us who are really enthusiastic about the iPad are in part enthusiastic about

01:23:10   it because it has such incredible potential and the things that it does well, it does

01:23:15   better than any other Apple product.

01:23:18   Like I had that thought this weekend.

01:23:20   It was like, I, you know, it's a Mac book here when I want it to be, except for the

01:23:25   software issues.

01:23:26   And then I pop it out and it's just a little tablet.

01:23:28   Like I can, and I, then I get a pencil and I'm doing pencil interactions and editing

01:23:33   a podcast with a pencil.

01:23:34   I'm like, it's amazing.

01:23:36   And the iPhone doesn't do that.

01:23:37   You put a controller, you put a controller around it.

01:23:39   You have a giant monitor to play video games.

01:23:41   Like it can transform into so many different things.

01:23:43   It's incredible.

01:23:44   Yes.

01:23:45   Yeah.

01:23:46   Yeah.

01:23:46   So it does come from a place of love, like all the criticism and the frustrations.

01:23:50   They really do.

01:23:51   Yeah.

01:23:51   All right.

01:23:51   Well, Federico, thank you so much for being on upgrade.

01:23:54   It took two connected hosts to fill in for Mike, but I'm, and I do love Mac stories,

01:23:59   I should say.

01:24:00   And we'll say it at the end of the show too, and, and connected and all the other podcasts

01:24:06   you do in the Mac stories podcast.

01:24:07   There's so much in the Mac stories connected universe.

01:24:10   But thank you so much for coming on upgrade to talk about iPads.

01:24:12   Thank you.

01:24:13   It's been a pleasure.

01:24:14   Thank you.

01:24:15   This episode of upgrade is brought to you by Express VPN.

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01:26:01   Steven, welcome back.

01:26:04   Hello.

01:26:05   Thank you for hibernating during Federico.

01:26:08   See Federico lives way far away.

01:26:11   And so we had to record that part before we recorded your part.

01:26:14   That's a little behind the scenes action because yeah, he's he's central time is a little bit

01:26:18   ahead of me, but you know, central European time.

01:26:21   Woo.

01:26:21   Wow.

01:26:22   That's way out there.

01:26:23   It is a different ball game setting stuff up with Federico.

01:26:26   Wow.

01:26:27   Yeah.

01:26:27   So I mean, you do this every week, right?

01:26:29   It's a, it's a thing.

01:26:29   So thank you for, for going into podcast hibernation, but you're back.

01:26:33   Do you have any iPad related thoughts or questions to ask me now that we've broken the seal on that?

01:26:39   Yeah.

01:26:40   Well, I do, but first I want to say like, I know you guys talked through Federico's article.

01:26:46   I got a chance to read the draft over the weekend.

01:26:48   Yeah.

01:26:49   There are very few people on the planet who think more thoroughly about this thing, these

01:26:56   things than Federico does.

01:26:57   Yeah, for sure.

01:26:58   And he, you know, he was talking to several of us kind of after the event leading into

01:27:03   this article.

01:27:04   And I think if you want a, what is up with iPadOS, there's no place better to look.

01:27:12   And I hope that people at Apple who work on iPadOS take it to heart because he knows their

01:27:17   product better than almost anyone on the outside of the company.

01:27:21   So definitely go check that out.

01:27:23   But yeah, I did.

01:27:25   I really just had, you know, one question.

01:27:27   I know you guys talked through a lot of stuff, but you've been a big iPad pro user for really

01:27:34   as long as I can remember.

01:27:35   Since the iPad pro came out in 2015.

01:27:37   How has it been nine years since the first iPad pro came out?

01:27:42   I keep thinking it's like right when I went out on my own, but it was actually the next

01:27:45   year.

01:27:45   It was a year out on my own when it came out and I bought that first iPad pro.

01:27:49   And that was a big for a brand new company and me out on my own.

01:27:53   That was a big investment to buy an iPad pro with a keyboard, but I totally did it.

01:27:56   Yeah.

01:27:57   And you, like you said, you've continued on that path and it just struck me in.

01:28:04   I was reading some of your old reviews, including your original iPad preview from 2015 in preparation

01:28:10   for this.

01:28:10   I was just struck that as an, as an iPad user, you've kind of been on the front lines of

01:28:17   like how they've improved the product the best.

01:28:20   Because I think out of all the iPads, the big one has had the most meaningful improvements.

01:28:25   I mean, if people don't remember that original iPad pro, it was kind of awkward, right?

01:28:32   Cause we were still in the home button era.

01:28:35   It was pretty thick.

01:28:37   It was pretty heavy.

01:28:38   And then there was the big keyboard, which was a revelation that there was Apple made

01:28:42   a keyboard for the iPad.

01:28:44   Cause that was the people were arguing like, you shouldn't have a keyboard on your iPad.

01:28:47   And they did it.

01:28:48   But it was also that it was that first generation one where it like folded over.

01:28:52   So it was like half of it was super thick and awkward.

01:28:57   And I'm like, I never carried that thing around in that case.

01:29:00   I always just kept that case around because it was super awkward, but it was a big screen

01:29:06   iPad that was, you know, that they were trying to say, Hey, everybody do work on this thing.

01:29:12   And they had the iWork apps for iPad.

01:29:14   And like, they were really trying to say, no, no, we're trying to establish that the

01:29:17   iPad is not just a lean back kind of thing.

01:29:21   It's a lean forward kind of thing.

01:29:22   And so yeah, nine years on I've been, I've been working the fields on the iPad pro just,

01:29:29   you know, tote that barge, lift that bale.

01:29:31   Uh, I don't know, upload that podcast, something like that.

01:29:34   Sure.

01:29:34   Well, you can't record a podcast on it.

01:29:35   That's for sure.

01:29:36   And, and that's really what I was getting at.

01:29:39   And I think it's sort of the intersection between the y'all's two pieces today where

01:29:44   this new iPad pro is so incredible hardware wise, but it still has the same problems.

01:29:52   The original one did nine years ago.

01:29:54   I mean, you have this piece in your original iPad broker.

01:29:56   Were you talking about the hardware and then a single line, you have the word, but yeah.

01:30:01   And then the next subhead is talking about software.

01:30:03   It's like this could be written today in many ways, Federico's piece, your piece, your

01:30:09   2015 piece, they're all kind of the same lineage because Apple just hasn't, hasn't been

01:30:15   able to, to move this forward in the way that a lot of us want.

01:30:19   It just struck me on reflecting on the nine years of the iPad pro that while the hardware,

01:30:24   I mean, the original one to this one seems like unbelievable progress.

01:30:30   Yet the frustrations are kind of the same when you boil it down.

01:30:35   Yeah.

01:30:35   The pace of the pace of, of progress on the hardware side vastly exceeds the pace of progress

01:30:40   on the software side.

01:30:41   Not that there isn't, not that there isn't progress because like I said to Federico a

01:30:47   couple, you know, earlier in the, in the podcast using it the last five days, I'm reminded

01:30:54   of all the things that used to frustrate me back when I started doing this that are no

01:30:57   longer the case.

01:30:58   It has progressed.

01:31:00   It's just not progressed as fast enough as the hardware.

01:31:03   So should we do some ask upgrade?

01:31:06   That do it right?

01:31:10   Keep it in, Jim, keep my lasers in, keep the lasers in.

01:31:13   Yeah, here we go.

01:31:14   Okay.

01:31:14   Andrew asks, I'm currently using a ninth gen iPad that I want to replace a fifth gen

01:31:21   iPad air that got damaged that I used, used to replace.

01:31:24   Okay.

01:31:25   I want to get cellular in the next one, but mostly I use it for web browsing and streaming

01:31:28   video.

01:31:28   Should I get a 10th gen since the price has gone down a new air or refurbished 11 inch

01:31:34   iPad pro fourth gen since it's on the M series chips and will be supported longer?

01:31:38   Wow.

01:31:38   So many iPad choices here.

01:31:42   I know that, that, so I pulled most of these questions and that's why I pulled this one.

01:31:46   I was like, this really shows the gamut of what's out there.

01:31:51   And I think for most people, other than budget, which I think should, you know, is the biggest,

01:31:58   obviously the biggest factor in this purchase for a lot of people.

01:32:01   I think it's also kind of about the accessories, you know, depending on which iPad you get,

01:32:06   you get sort of radically different experiences.

01:32:08   Yeah.

01:32:09   When it comes, especially to the keyboard and track pad.

01:32:11   I mean, that 10th gen one has like the kickstands, all sorts of weird stuff going on there.

01:32:17   Um, and so I think you, you look at that.

01:32:20   I mean, I think any of them would be an improvement, but also the 9th gen is still pretty good.

01:32:26   Like they're still, they sold it until, you know, eight days ago.

01:32:30   And, um, and so I don't know if you've got to completely rush out and replace it just

01:32:34   because it's, it's old now, but I think look at the accessories, look at the budget.

01:32:39   I think between the 10th gen and the, and the air, you would be, you would be fine either

01:32:45   way.

01:32:45   Yeah.

01:32:46   I think problem with questions that get sent in is that I have follow-up questions.

01:32:51   So my answer would be like, do you want to use a keyboard with it?

01:32:55   How do you feel about kickstands?

01:32:56   Like I don't like kickstands.

01:32:58   So, so if I want to use a keyboard with an iPad, I'm not going to get the 10th gen, even

01:33:01   though it's got bright colors and it's really nice.

01:33:03   The keyboard story just doesn't work for me.

01:33:05   And so I would not, I would not go down that path.

01:33:08   Um, uh, new air is going to be M series two, just like the 11 inch.

01:33:14   So like I, the 11 inch iPad pro fourth new air is an M two.

01:33:20   Right.

01:33:20   So like, I think the new air is the place that you should maybe start and then see like what

01:33:25   price can you get for a refurb iPad pro and what do you get?

01:33:29   And, and does that make more sense for you?

01:33:31   It's got face ID face ID is really nice too.

01:33:33   I like it.

01:33:34   Um, but the new air and the old iPad pros are very, very similar.

01:33:38   So I'd say price them and see if there are specific features.

01:33:42   How do you feel about the Apple pencil?

01:33:43   New, new pencil or new air will get you new Apple pencil.

01:33:47   Refurb iPad pro will mean an older Apple pencil without the fun new features.

01:33:52   So if I had to guess I'd say sweet spot is the new air, but you know, it really depends

01:34:00   on how you use it.

01:34:01   That's the beauty of the iPad, but also the complexity of it is that it's sort of defined

01:34:05   by its accessories.

01:34:06   But to answer the question, you have to weigh the accessories.

01:34:09   Like Apple pencil doesn't really matter to me cause I could use any Apple pencil to do

01:34:14   what I do with an Apple pencil, but keyboard really matters to me.

01:34:17   So yeah, I think too, there is something else I wanted to highlight in this question about

01:34:22   longevity and really, I think, I think it's right to praise Apple here.

01:34:30   They do a pretty good job supporting devices for a long time.

01:34:36   You know, every few years, some iPads and iPhones get cut off, but generally, you know,

01:34:43   you have years and years from when something goes off sale.

01:34:48   And so the 10th gen versus, or, you know, a new air versus a refurbished 11 inch iPad

01:34:55   pro.

01:34:55   Like, I don't know if, you know, five, six, seven years down the road, how different the

01:35:01   cutoffs will be for that software.

01:35:04   And so I don't think it would be drastically different.

01:35:08   I think it could be a year or two, but generally what I'm saying is Apple does a good job at

01:35:13   keeping these things supported for a long time.

01:35:15   And so I don't necessarily rank that super high in my rubric of which one should I get?

01:35:23   B wrote in and said, Apple removing the ultra wide camera on the new iPad pro surprised

01:35:29   me.

01:35:29   Do you think they did this to avoid needing to add support for spatial video?

01:35:34   I don't think the spatial video really is affected.

01:35:38   Although I would say that, you know, based on the existing cameras that were there, I'm

01:35:40   not sure the quality, I think they want the quality of spatial video to be better.

01:35:44   And the iPhones that are coming this fall will up the quality there, but I don't think

01:35:48   that was the motivation.

01:35:49   It is weird for Apple to remove features from a new generation of a product, right?

01:35:55   That doesn't happen that often.

01:35:56   And they took the ultra wide out.

01:35:58   It's just gone.

01:35:59   There's, this was an iPad with two rear cameras and they're like, nope, one rear camera

01:36:03   that's all you get one 12 megapixel rear camera.

01:36:06   But if I had to guess, I guess that they're trying to save money and space and the, and

01:36:14   that they probably have some access to some very secret internal Apple statistics that

01:36:19   showed that nobody used that camera.

01:36:20   That's my guess.

01:36:22   That's that's, that's the best.

01:36:24   And I think that they, they like telling the story about the new true tone with the multi

01:36:28   multi, you know, led true tone flash and their machine learning on document scanning and

01:36:34   stuff like that, that they can do.

01:36:36   That is a first.

01:36:36   I assume the iPhone will pick it up this fall, but it's a first on the iPad.

01:36:40   You shouldn't have to buy an iPad to do a document scan.

01:36:43   Your phone should be able to do that too.

01:36:44   But like, I, I don't think it's about spatial video.

01:36:48   My guess is that it's about saving space and, and weight and power and price because they,

01:36:55   even though they raised the price of the iPad pro the OLED adding OLED alone, I'm sure really

01:37:01   increased the actual cost of building and the cost of parts.

01:37:05   And there's two of them in there.

01:37:06   Yeah.

01:37:08   Right.

01:37:08   Yeah.

01:37:08   Two panels.

01:37:10   Tandem panels.

01:37:11   So, so yeah, that's my guess, but it is a weird move, right?

01:37:14   Like obviously there was, there was some sort of reason, but I don't think it's spatial

01:37:18   recording related is my guess.

01:37:20   Connor wrote in to say, I want to get an iPad mini, but I feel like I should wait at this

01:37:26   point.

01:37:26   Given the lack of an update to the mini last week is all hope lost.

01:37:29   Do we think the mini will be revised or will it go the way of the iPhone mini?

01:37:32   And should I get one while I still can?

01:37:34   Well, Connor, good news.

01:37:35   Mark Gurman said there is a new mini coming.

01:37:38   I think we think of Apple as this kind of all powerful, enormous entity, right?

01:37:42   But like, I don't think Apple has the capability to switch every single iPad production line

01:37:48   at once.

01:37:49   I think that they're like, no, no, no, no.

01:37:50   That's like, cause there's factories, there's lots of physical implications in doing it.

01:37:54   So they did two now and they'll do two later.

01:37:57   And Mark Gurman says maybe the end of the year or early next year, there will be a new

01:38:01   iPad mini.

01:38:02   So I wouldn't buy a new iPad mini if you could avoid it because there is a new one coming

01:38:07   and I'm sure it will be a pretty dramatic upgrade because they only get updated every

01:38:12   few years.

01:38:12   You still use a mini?

01:38:14   I do.

01:38:15   Yeah.

01:38:16   I've got an iPad mini.

01:38:17   It's it's right here on my desk.

01:38:19   Nice.

01:38:19   I yeah, I mean the iPad mini other than the first couple where they really iterated pretty

01:38:25   quickly, it has slowed down to this sort of irregular every couple of years gets an update.

01:38:32   And yeah, I think, you know, spec wise, it will get an update.

01:38:37   You know, there, there are these people out there and I'm could be one of them, honestly,

01:38:41   that wants like a pro level iPad mini, you know, it's like, well, what if Tandem OLED

01:38:45   was in a small tablet?

01:38:46   I think, you know, that'd be, that'd be awesome.

01:38:48   But I think the iPad mini kind of lives in the space, kind of like the iPad air, but

01:38:51   you're paying a bit of a premium over the 10th gen for the size.

01:38:55   But Gurman says it is coming.

01:38:57   And I agree with you.

01:38:58   It would be great if they could just roll out, Hey, we've done everything, but they

01:39:03   have to prioritize.

01:39:04   They have to line up all of these different things.

01:39:06   And it seems like the menu, you know, maybe it'll be this fall, you know, it could be

01:39:11   tacked onto the iPhone.

01:39:12   It could be if there's an October event because there's also rumors of a bunch of M4 Max

01:39:17   coming later this year.

01:39:18   Pre-Christmas event seems like if it's ready, that would be a great time to launch it.

01:39:22   Yeah.

01:39:23   And the mini I think does pretty well in the holiday season, I would imagine.

01:39:26   So I think it's coming.

01:39:28   I don't think it's going to go the way of the iPhone mini.

01:39:31   I think that's a very different situation.

01:39:34   Pour one out for the iPhone mini.

01:39:37   Oh, I know.

01:39:37   My wife just moved off hers this weekend.

01:39:39   I just saw somebody with one the other day and I was like, Oh, but then again, I look

01:39:43   at my phone and I'm like, it's fine.

01:39:44   I don't need to go back to that.

01:39:46   Yeah.

01:39:46   I miss it.

01:39:47   Mary went from a 13 mini to a 15 this weekend and she picked it up off her nightstand this

01:39:53   morning and I just heard, Ugh.

01:39:55   Yeah.

01:39:55   Yeah.

01:39:57   Yeah.

01:39:58   Sam writes, if Apple were to launch an iPhone Air to sit between the iPhone and the iPhone

01:40:03   Pro, which features would you bring to the Air and what would you leave to the Pro?

01:40:08   Oh, I love this.

01:40:11   I love this question.

01:40:12   I hate this question.

01:40:13   So I would argue that the current iPhone is the iPhone Air and that the iPhone SE and

01:40:19   past models are the iPhone.

01:40:21   That would be, that would be my fascinating.

01:40:24   My argument is that, is that the iPhone is already positioned in that spot and the older

01:40:29   iPhones and the SE are the, are the low end.

01:40:32   Cause there's no iPad SE, right?

01:40:35   I think that that's, I think they just approach it differently, but Hey, if you want to spit

01:40:39   ball on what features you take out and put in an iPhone Air, I would love to hear.

01:40:43   The, the one that came to mind immediately and it may come to the iPhone 16 is the always

01:40:50   on display.

01:40:51   It, in setting up my wife's iPhone 15 last night, I kept looking over it and like, Oh,

01:40:56   why isn't the screen not on?

01:40:57   Because it's, you know, I know it's not the mini, right?

01:40:59   It's sort of a, now a normal sized phone.

01:41:03   As like the always on screen is so good.

01:41:06   And I have, you know, a bunch of widgets on my home screen and faded out, you know, version

01:41:11   of my wallpaper.

01:41:12   I love that I can just glance at my phone and see what's going on.

01:41:16   And I think everyone should have that.

01:41:18   So I would, that would be something I would pull down.

01:41:21   I think the other thing I would consider pulling down maybe is a third camera.

01:41:30   That was actually a conversation we had this weekend by my wife, her phone is like, you

01:41:35   know, we can do whatever you want.

01:41:36   Like if you want the 15 or the 15 pro, you know, I showed them both two were the stores.

01:41:41   Like, you know, the differences primarily that you would notice it is the third camera

01:41:45   that telephoto and it does unlock some interesting creative things.

01:41:52   And, you know, maybe there's a world where the pro is five X and 10 X or something.

01:41:57   If they can continue to improve the, you know, whatever they call it, the Tetra prism, whatever

01:42:03   inside the pro max, maybe there's room for like a more standard two X.

01:42:07   I don't know, but it, it, it is noticeable that that third camera is, you know, kind

01:42:13   of there as a distinguishing factor that I think a lot of people would want, but maybe

01:42:18   now with all the other stuff and all the expense that it brings, I'll say more colors that

01:42:23   are not as bright as cheaper models, but more of them than on the pro models.

01:42:28   Yeah.

01:42:29   And I know this isn't the case, but I'm, it makes me laugh.

01:42:33   So I'm just going to say it just to replace face ID with the button touch ID.

01:42:38   Just to make people angry.

01:42:39   I could be way to bring the price down.

01:42:41   Just make people angry.

01:42:42   And finally, Jessica asks, are you concerned about the new iPad bending?

01:42:47   Gasp!

01:42:49   Bendgate.

01:42:49   Could we have Bendgate back?

01:42:51   So our friends at MacRumors, and we have lots of friends over there.

01:42:57   They put this thing on threads three days ago.

01:42:59   Yeah.

01:43:00   Promoting Bendgate before the iPad pro comes out.

01:43:04   Like talk about missing the room.

01:43:07   I don't, I don't love that.

01:43:08   Yeah.

01:43:09   The replies to it are incredible, but just this weekend there was an interview with Jaws

01:43:18   and John Turnus, future Apple CEO, talking about a lot of things with the iPad.

01:43:24   But one of the things that came out of it was the construction methods.

01:43:28   And I'm sure we'll see more of this the second iFixit has their hands on one, but changing

01:43:34   the way that this iPad is actually constructed to make it stronger.

01:43:40   And like, there's like a new metal cover that sits on top of the logic board and there's

01:43:45   a central rib of metal that like make it stronger, make it more rigid.

01:43:49   I think that's especially important on the 13 where you have more leverage.

01:43:52   Yeah.

01:43:53   And look, Apple's gotten this wrong before, right?

01:43:55   Like look no further than the iPhone 6 Plus.

01:43:57   Things can happen, but I suspect they've done their math here.

01:44:02   And I think under most use cases, this won't be a problem.

01:44:05   If you shut it in a car door or a trunk lid, like our friend John Voorhees did once on

01:44:09   vacation.

01:44:10   Yeah, sure.

01:44:11   Probably going to bend, but so did the old ones.

01:44:14   So I think it's not going to keep me up at night.

01:44:17   Yeah.

01:44:18   There will always be a gate.

01:44:20   If it isn't Bendgate, they will find some other gate.

01:44:23   There will always be a gate because it's what gets the clicks.

01:44:28   That's it.

01:44:29   You know, maybe it'll be a green gate, Steven.

01:44:31   Maybe it'll be a his gate.

01:44:32   Mm.

01:44:33   Those are good.

01:44:34   Sometimes screens turn green for no reason.

01:44:37   Should we invent a gate?

01:44:38   Should we just like, uh, invent a gate right now for, for the new iPads?

01:44:43   I'm going to say, how about a, uh, an accessory based gate?

01:44:49   How about like a, um, pencil gate?

01:44:53   Yeah.

01:44:53   I was thinking like function key gate or like charge gate.

01:44:57   Maybe it doesn't charge as well in through the keyboard, but I do like pencil gate and

01:45:03   it could cover so many different sins.

01:45:04   Pencil gates also fun to say pencil gate, right?

01:45:08   All right.

01:45:09   We don't know what pencil gate is, but we're, we're looking at that apple pencil pro and

01:45:12   we're suspicious.

01:45:14   Something is going on there.

01:45:15   Pencil gate, pencil gate.

01:45:17   All right.

01:45:20   If, uh, you love upgrade, by the way, uh, you should

01:45:22   subscribe to upgrade plus where you get no ads and bonus content every week and access

01:45:27   to the relay FM members discord this week, Steve and I are going to talk about iPod nanos

01:45:31   and we're going to rank them.

01:45:32   And it's going to get wild.

01:45:35   Go to get upgrade plus.com for more, but this brings us to the end of this episode.

01:45:40   Send us your feedback.

01:45:41   Mike will be back next week.

01:45:42   Feedback.

01:45:43   Follow up questions, upgrade feedback.com.

01:45:45   You can do still talk there.

01:45:46   You can do ask upgrade there.

01:45:48   Check my stuff out.

01:45:49   My new iPad pro review is up now at six colors.com.

01:45:52   Listen to my podcast at the incomparable.com and here at relay FM and, uh, Steven, of course,

01:45:58   five, 12 pixels.net.

01:46:00   It's the episode number five, 12 followed by pixels.net.

01:46:04   Synergy.

01:46:05   Yes.

01:46:06   And, uh, I don't even know what you're on the socials at various things.

01:46:09   I'm having some trouble there.

01:46:11   There's a bunch of links in the sidebar at five, 12 pixels.

01:46:14   Uh, but I also host power users.

01:46:17   Yes.

01:46:17   Sunday here.

01:46:19   Now, yes.

01:46:19   And then, uh, some show with a couple of Europeans on Wednesdays.

01:46:24   Yes, indeed.

01:46:25   A very serious technology related podcast.

01:46:28   Um, so I am a J.

01:46:32   Snell at Zeppelin Dodge lights on Mastodon.

01:46:34   That's the best place to find me on the socials.

01:46:36   I suppose.

01:46:36   Um, Mike will be back next time.

01:46:39   Um, Federico, we should say max stories.net.

01:46:43   You'll see his article there and a whole lot more.

01:46:45   And then he's also on a podcast on relay called connected and, uh, many other

01:46:50   podcasts in the Mac stories, family, its own little podcast collection.

01:46:56   That's happening.

01:46:56   He's a busy guy, busy guy, but, and thank you again to Federico for taking time

01:47:01   out to talk about the iPad with me on this episode, of course, we have our

01:47:04   video clips, Tik TOK, Instagram, YouTube upgrade relay is the name to search for.

01:47:09   And, uh, we continue to sell merch at upgrade your wardrobe.com.

01:47:13   I think our merch drop is basically over at this point for the, uh, for the

01:47:17   special stuff, but there's ongoing available merch at upgrade your wardrobe.com.

01:47:22   Thank you to all the members who support us with upgrade plus.

01:47:25   And thank you to our sponsors, Fitbot, delete me and express VPN.

01:47:30   Is this how saying goodbye works on upgrade?

01:47:32   Mike will be back next week and he can do it right, but thank you all for

01:47:35   listening and until next time, Stephen Hackett say goodbye.

01:47:39   Bye y'all.

01:47:41   [Music]