Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03 ◼   ► Hello, and welcome to Connected, episode 502.

00:00:12 ◼   ► It's made possible this week by our sponsors, JAM, Squarespace,

00:00:16 ◼   ► and Tailscale.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Stephen Hackett, and I'm joined by Mr. Federico Vittucci.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hello, Stephen.

00:00:22 ◼   ► How are you?

00:00:22 ◼   ► I'm good.

00:00:23 ◼   ► How are you?

00:00:24 ◼   ► I'm doing fantastic.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I have an iPad Pro that arrived today.

00:00:28 ◼   ► Been playing with it.

00:00:29 ◼   ► It's great.

00:00:30 ◼   ► We can talk about it.

00:00:31 ◼   ► And I also wanted to point out that in 10 episodes,

00:00:34 ◼   ► it'll be Connected 512.

00:00:36 ◼   ► I know.

00:00:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:00:38 ◼   ► It's pretty special.

00:00:38 ◼   ► We got a taste of that this week, because even though they

00:00:42 ◼   ► started after us, Upgrade passed us some time ago in episode numbers.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Because Jason used to never go on vacation, I think.

00:00:51 ◼   ► And we take the week off between Christmas and New Year's,

00:00:54 ◼   ► and they don't.

00:00:55 ◼   ► So Upgrade episode 512 was on Monday.

00:00:59 ◼   ► And don't tell Mike, but apparently Jason

00:01:02 ◼   ► thought he needed both Connected hosts to replace Mike, which--

00:01:05 ◼   ► It's the only way we can be taller than him if we combine together.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Like you sitting on my shoulders.

00:01:12 ◼   ► OK.

00:01:13 ◼   ► I was getting ready to ask, who's the bass?

00:01:15 ◼   ► You know, who's--

00:01:15 ◼   ► I'm the bass.

00:01:16 ◼   ► I'm the bass.

00:01:17 ◼   ► You're above.

00:01:18 ◼   ► We can find a really long trench coat or something.

00:01:20 ◼   ► Perfect.

00:01:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:01:23 ◼   ► Maybe at WWDC, which is in a month, by the way,

00:01:27 ◼   ► maybe we just stroll into Apple Park that way.

00:01:29 ◼   ► You think security would notice?

00:01:31 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:01:32 ◼   ► I don't think so.

00:01:32 ◼   ► Maybe the dogs, though.

00:01:33 ◼   ► The dogs maybe will notice us.

00:01:35 ◼   ► Maybe so.

00:01:36 ◼   ► You try to fold us into a golf cart, and it's like, ah, you know.

00:01:38 ◼   ► That's really uncomfortable for me as the bass.

00:01:45 ◼   ► But I got a long way to fall, you know?

00:01:49 ◼   ► We're 12 feet tall together.

00:01:52 ◼   ► Yeah, so I just listened to upgrade 512.

00:01:56 ◼   ► That was a really good conversation.

00:01:57 ◼   ► And I also recommend the pro show because you guys talk about iPods.

00:02:01 ◼   ► And I thought that was funny.

00:02:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:04 ◼   ► The week of new iPods.

00:02:05 ◼   ► It's like, hey, you know what we need to do for members?

00:02:08 ◼   ► iPods.

00:02:09 ◼   ► iPods.

00:02:11 ◼   ► So yes.

00:02:11 ◼   ► Yeah, go check it out.

00:02:12 ◼   ► It's so much fun.

00:02:13 ◼   ► I think you feel the same way.

00:02:15 ◼   ► You and I don't get to talk with Jason about tech very often,

00:02:18 ◼   ► like in public.

00:02:19 ◼   ► And so it's always fun to get to do that.

00:02:21 ◼   ► Yes.

00:02:22 ◼   ► I agree.

00:02:23 ◼   ► Several people have asked me about my social media username problem,

00:02:27 ◼   ► where I'm ismh86 in some places.

00:02:29 ◼   ► Are you still ismh86?

00:02:32 ◼   ► Still am.

00:02:33 ◼   ► OK.

00:02:33 ◼   ► So I don't have a new username yet.

00:02:35 ◼   ► I'm still kind of looking at some things.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Have you asked Mary for advice?

00:02:42 ◼   ► No.

00:02:43 ◼   ► I think she would say I don't care.

00:02:46 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:02:47 ◼   ► Interesting.

00:02:49 ◼   ► Or maybe she has good advice.

00:02:51 ◼   ► I should ask her.

00:02:51 ◼   ► She has good advice on many things.

00:02:53 ◼   ► Many, many.

00:02:54 ◼   ► Almost basically everything.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Yeah, so I mean, she probably has opinions about usernames.

00:02:58 ◼   ► I should ask her.

00:03:00 ◼   ► And so I haven't done it yet because I haven't settled on it.

00:03:03 ◼   ► But I was looking at Mastodon because I realized,

00:03:06 ◼   ► I don't know how you change your username in Mastodon.

00:03:08 ◼   ► I figure you just go to your profile and change it.

00:03:11 ◼   ► You can't.

00:03:12 ◼   ► You cannot change your username on Mastodon.

00:03:15 ◼   ► You have to create a new account and then migrate your followers

00:03:19 ◼   ► and content over to it.

00:03:21 ◼   ► Nice, perfect.

00:03:22 ◼   ► Fediverse.

00:03:23 ◼   ► No notes.

00:03:24 ◼   ► What are you doing, Mastodon?

00:03:29 ◼   ► Hey, you don't argue with Federation.

00:03:32 ◼   ► It is what it is.

00:03:33 ◼   ► It's true.

00:03:35 ◼   ► You want to be part of the Fediverse?

00:03:36 ◼   ► You cannot change your username.

00:03:38 ◼   ► I know.

00:03:38 ◼   ► It's, you know, it is what it is.

00:03:44 ◼   ► I wanted to point out some really important feedback

00:03:48 ◼   ► regarding the Teach Italian segment from listener

00:03:51 ◼   ► Johan Malmstrom.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Johan mentioned connected on Mastodon saying,

00:03:57 ◼   ► "Is the Italiano I've picked up on connected enough

00:04:00 ◼   ► to make it around Rome?

00:04:01 ◼   ► Well, it's enough to buy a bus ticket, at least thanks

00:04:04 ◼   ► to an old lady and Grazie mille Bittici."

00:04:07 ◼   ► So I'm just doing my best.

00:04:10 ◼   ► I'm providing a service for people

00:04:11 ◼   ► who need to buy bus tickets in Rome.

00:04:14 ◼   ► And Johan also helpfully posted a photo evidence

00:04:17 ◼   ► after this post, just standing by one of the bus stops

00:04:24 ◼   ► for the bus company in Rome called Attac,

00:04:27 ◼   ► as you can see from the photo.

00:04:29 ◼   ► Yeah, this is not my neighborhood.

00:04:32 ◼   ► Also, Johan is wearing a lovely rectives T-shirt.

00:04:36 ◼   ► And yeah, you're welcome, Johan.

00:04:38 ◼   ► I'm pleased that you were able to ask the old lady

00:04:41 ◼   ► for some basic advice on how to buy a bus ticket.

00:04:45 ◼   ► Really, the old lady was doing the heavy lifting, not us.

00:04:49 ◼   ► Yeah, would have asked me.

00:04:50 ◼   ► I would have told you that most people don't buy bus tickets

00:04:53 ◼   ► in Rome, Italy, but it's not what you're supposed to do.

00:04:56 ◼   ► So you've done a good thing in actually buying a bus ticket.

00:05:01 ◼   ► What do most people do?

00:05:03 ◼   ► Steal the ride.

00:05:06 ◼   ► Oh, no.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, it's bad.

00:05:08 ◼   ► It's public transport in Rome, much to be improved

00:05:12 ◼   ► in terms of security and actually checking

00:05:17 ◼   ► whether people have tickets or not.

00:05:18 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, it leaves much to be desired, is what I'll say.

00:05:24 ◼   ► Today marks Global Accessibility Awareness Day,

00:05:31 ◼   ► and as has been their tradition now, I guess,

00:05:35 ◼   ► for several years, Apple has made some announcements

00:05:38 ◼   ► of accessibility features coming later this year.

00:05:42 ◼   ► So this will be similarly part of the iOS 18, Mac OS, whatever,

00:05:48 ◼   ► that cycle.

00:05:51 ◼   ► So there's a newsroom article, and then over on Mac Stories,

00:05:53 ◼   ► y'all broke it down.

00:05:54 ◼   ► There's a lot of stuff here.

00:05:56 ◼   ► We're not going to have time to go through it all in depth.

00:05:59 ◼   ► But the one that jumped out at me is vehicle motion cues.

00:06:06 ◼   ► Why?

00:06:07 ◼   ► Because I get motion sick really badly in the car.

00:06:11 ◼   ► I can use my phone if I'm riding, but not for very long.

00:06:14 ◼   ► And they are adding animated dots

00:06:19 ◼   ► to the screen that represent changes in vehicle motion,

00:06:24 ◼   ► and that helps your brain--

00:06:27 ◼   ► because motion sickness is basically what you see

00:06:29 ◼   ► and what you feel don't line up.

00:06:31 ◼   ► And the answer is, I guess I'm going to throw up.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And these dots help your brain realize--

00:06:38 ◼   ► help you see the motion that you feel in your body.

00:06:42 ◼   ► It can be set automatically show up,

00:06:45 ◼   ► or it can be turned on and off in Control Center.

00:06:47 ◼   ► That is one I'm very excited about trying personally.

00:06:50 ◼   ► Have you ever stopped thinking about how the human body,

00:06:54 ◼   ► in so many different scenarios, the default solution is, well,

00:06:58 ◼   ► I guess I'm just going to throw up.

00:07:00 ◼   ► It's true.

00:07:01 ◼   ► It's a baseline approach to dealing with things.

00:07:04 ◼   ► I guess so.

00:07:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:07:05 ◼   ► You got to speak in front of a room of people.

00:07:09 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, why?

00:07:10 ◼   ► Why is that?

00:07:11 ◼   ► Like, they should have thought of something else.

00:07:14 ◼   ► Why can't this get cold?

00:07:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, literally anything else in terms of feedback.

00:07:20 ◼   ► Why did it have to be throwing up?

00:07:22 ◼   ► I know.

00:07:23 ◼   ► I know.

00:07:25 ◼   ► Anyway, yes, this is a really cool feature.

00:07:29 ◼   ► And this is going to be built right into CarPlay.

00:07:33 ◼   ► I think also.

00:07:35 ◼   ► Yeah, CarPlay has a lot of stuff going on.

00:07:37 ◼   ► So they're going to bring some of the more standard stuff

00:07:40 ◼   ► like voice control and color filters over.

00:07:44 ◼   ► They're also going to bring a sound recognition, which

00:07:46 ◼   ► is part of the Apple ecosystem now.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Like, you can set a HomePod up to send you a notification

00:07:51 ◼   ► if it hears a smoke alarm.

00:07:53 ◼   ► But now in CarPlay, you can have a notification saying,

00:07:57 ◼   ► like, oh, your phone hears a siren or a car horn.

00:08:01 ◼   ► So if you can't hear it, it can alert you that, hey,

00:08:04 ◼   ► maybe you're getting pulled over or maybe there's

00:08:06 ◼   ► an ambulance behind you.

00:08:07 ◼   ► Be aware.

00:08:09 ◼   ► Super cool stuff in CarPlay.

00:08:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:12 ◼   ► I wanted to mention the eye tracking, which

00:08:14 ◼   ► I think is really interesting.

00:08:16 ◼   ► So this has been framed as obviously

00:08:19 ◼   ► part of the new accessibility features coming

00:08:22 ◼   ► to iPhone and iPad.

00:08:24 ◼   ► And it seems like using a combination of the built-in

00:08:28 ◼   ► front-facing camera and some on-device,

00:08:32 ◼   ► the same machine learning--

00:08:34 ◼   ► I'm sure WWC will say AI.

00:08:37 ◼   ► By using a combination of the camera and a calibration

00:08:39 ◼   ► process based on a machine learning model,

00:08:42 ◼   ► you will be able to control the iOS and iPad OS

00:08:45 ◼   ► UI using your eyes.

00:08:46 ◼   ► So using eye tracking, very similar to VisionOS

00:08:49 ◼   ► as a concept, but doesn't require, of course,

00:08:53 ◼   ► wearing a headset.

00:08:54 ◼   ► And it seems like you will be able to also use

00:08:57 ◼   ► the dual control, which allows you to basically look

00:09:02 ◼   ► at something and hold your gaze for a second

00:09:05 ◼   ► to select that item.

00:09:07 ◼   ► So imagine you're looking at a button,

00:09:09 ◼   ► you look at it for a second, and the button is clicked.

00:09:12 ◼   ► I think that is a really incredible feature

00:09:15 ◼   ► if this actually works well.

00:09:16 ◼   ► And it really takes controlling iPhones and iPads

00:09:20 ◼   ► for people with disabilities to the next level.

00:09:23 ◼   ► Just eye tracking built into a tablet or a phone

00:09:27 ◼   ► that works in tandem with the UI, that sounds really wild.

00:09:32 ◼   ► It's awesome.

00:09:33 ◼   ► The last one Al mentioned is listening for atypical speech.

00:09:38 ◼   ► So people with some situations like ALS,

00:09:43 ◼   ► or maybe they've had a stroke or cerebral palsy,

00:09:45 ◼   ► something like that, they may have different speech patterns.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And Apple has done work for its speech recognition software

00:09:55 ◼   ► across the ecosystem to be tuned more for those sorts of people.

00:10:01 ◼   ► And I see that in my own household.

00:10:04 ◼   ► I've got a child who stutters, and sometimes the HomePod

00:10:08 ◼   ► kind of gives up while waiting for our son

00:10:11 ◼   ► to finish speaking.

00:10:12 ◼   ► And stuttering is not called out in the press,

00:10:15 ◼   ► really, specifically.

00:10:17 ◼   ► But it is going to be something that I look

00:10:19 ◼   ► for when this stuff ships.

00:10:20 ◼   ► But I love how broad Apple is getting with this.

00:10:24 ◼   ► They're thinking about people with all sorts of situations

00:10:26 ◼   ► that they're in.

00:10:28 ◼   ► And it's all really cool and all coming later this year.

00:10:31 ◼   ► There's even some stuff for Vision OS in here

00:10:33 ◼   ► we don't have time to talk about.

00:10:34 ◼   ► But lots of great stuff.

00:10:36 ◼   ► Yeah, and I believe that atypical speech is something

00:10:39 ◼   ► that a friend of the show, Stephen Aquino,

00:10:41 ◼   ► has mentioned multiple times over the years.

00:10:44 ◼   ► People with all kinds of ranges of speech

00:10:48 ◼   ► should be able to interact with assistants like Siri,

00:10:51 ◼   ► or dictation for that matter.

00:10:53 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I'm curious to see if Apple will also

00:10:56 ◼   ► accommodate for stuttering with this one.

00:10:58 ◼   ► And I also wanted to mention before we move on,

00:11:01 ◼   ► in the same range of speech-related features,

00:11:03 ◼   ► these vocal shortcuts functionality

00:11:06 ◼   ► that basically will allow you to--

00:11:08 ◼   ► and the best way that I can understand it,

00:11:11 ◼   ► John, OTJ, got some details behind the scenes.

00:11:13 ◼   ► But my understanding is that this feature

00:11:17 ◼   ► will allow you to effectively set up

00:11:19 ◼   ► a custom phrase for a shortcut without having

00:11:22 ◼   ► to say, "Hey, assistant."

00:11:26 ◼   ► And the OS will continuously listen for that phrase.

00:11:30 ◼   ► So imagine recording a phrase that says "Apple Frames,"

00:11:34 ◼   ► and I can just say that, and my iPad or iPhone

00:11:37 ◼   ► will always be listening for that phrase.

00:11:39 ◼   ► Now, obviously, you want to be--

00:11:41 ◼   ► we'll need to test this.

00:11:43 ◼   ► And it's not like you can set up all kinds of phrases

00:11:46 ◼   ► and suddenly your iPad is always going off running a shortcut.

00:11:49 ◼   ► But pretty cool regardless.

00:11:51 ◼   ► And yeah, I think Apple is doing some really interesting things

00:11:54 ◼   ► this year.

00:11:56 ◼   ► This episode of Connected is brought to you by Jam.

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00:12:04 ◼   ► with very little context.

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00:12:09 ◼   ► or console logs or user ID.

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00:13:34 ◼   ► Our thanks to Jam for their support of the show and RelayFM.

00:13:39 ◼   ► You and I have both had our hands on iPad Pros now.

00:13:43 ◼   ► I went to my Apple Store this morning where they opened.

00:13:47 ◼   ► OK.

00:13:48 ◼   ► Quite a few people there, actually.

00:13:50 ◼   ► Interesting, really.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Way more--

00:13:52 ◼   ► Just to check out the iPads.

00:13:53 ◼   ► Just check out the iPads.

00:13:54 ◼   ► Way more than Vision Pro Day.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Well.

00:13:57 ◼   ► Noticeably more people.

00:13:59 ◼   ► Is that a surprise?

00:14:00 ◼   ► No.

00:14:01 ◼   ► Did you see the report that--

00:14:03 ◼   ► I think it was on Bloomberg--

00:14:06 ◼   ► that some Apple Stores in the US are only selling

00:14:09 ◼   ► like two units per week on the Vision Pro?

00:14:13 ◼   ► I believe it.

00:14:14 ◼   ► Like, I know in my store, they had three demo tables.

00:14:18 ◼   ► And now it's just down to one.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Like, just back in the corner of the store with nothing on it.

00:14:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:24 ◼   ► But anyway, so you went there, quite a few people

00:14:27 ◼   ► checking out the iPads.

00:14:28 ◼   ► Quite a few people.

00:14:29 ◼   ► They had a bunch of iPad Pros check out,

00:14:31 ◼   ► a bunch of accessories.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I will say, I mean, they're both definitely thinner.

00:14:35 ◼   ► That 13 inch is hard to believe.

00:14:39 ◼   ► Like, the greater surface area, the thinness.

00:14:43 ◼   ► I'm not a 13 inch iPad person.

00:14:45 ◼   ► But if I was, I'd be very excited about this thing.

00:14:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:14:49 ◼   ► And I am once again, because of the thinness

00:14:52 ◼   ► and because of the weight.

00:14:53 ◼   ► And it's not just the thinness and the weight

00:14:56 ◼   ► in isolation.

00:14:58 ◼   ► It's the two things combined.

00:14:59 ◼   ► Because I really do think that the thinness and the 13 inch

00:15:04 ◼   ► surface and how weight is distributed,

00:15:07 ◼   ► that iPad feels--

00:15:09 ◼   ► even though it's not--

00:15:10 ◼   ► but it feels lighter somehow than the 11.

00:15:13 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

00:15:14 ◼   ► Maybe it's just my brain being easily fooled.

00:15:17 ◼   ► I have no idea.

00:15:18 ◼   ► But it does feel like so much easier to hold them before.

00:15:24 ◼   ► And yeah, and I thought, well, now it's

00:15:27 ◼   ► the time to go back to the 13, especially because it's

00:15:30 ◼   ► going to be more visually balanced as a Mac pad, which

00:15:35 ◼   ► you know is the first thing I did, actually.

00:15:38 ◼   ► Oh, I know.

00:15:39 ◼   ► I got the picture.

00:15:40 ◼   ► You got the picture.

00:15:41 ◼   ► You saw the picture.

00:15:42 ◼   ► And I'm actually working on something else.

00:15:44 ◼   ► We'll see if I can get it to work.

00:15:47 ◼   ► But yeah, did you try the Pencil Pro, Steven?

00:15:51 ◼   ► I did not get a chance to try the Pencil Pro.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:15:55 ◼   ► They had a couple--

00:15:56 ◼   ► not all the models on the floor had a pencil on them,

00:16:00 ◼   ► I guess, because pencils are easy to steal.

00:16:03 ◼   ► But I did get to spend some time with the new Magic keyboard

00:16:09 ◼   ► and trackpad.

00:16:10 ◼   ► And it really seems like a great improvement over the old one,

00:16:14 ◼   ► which I liked.

00:16:15 ◼   ► The old one, I think, was pretty good too.

00:16:18 ◼   ► Definitely lighter.

00:16:19 ◼   ► The aluminum on the inside, it feels like a little MacBook.

00:16:23 ◼   ► It's kind of weird that it's still rubbery on the outside.

00:16:26 ◼   ► And I do wonder about the longevity of that.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Is that rubber just glued on the bottom of the aluminum?

00:16:32 ◼   ► Apple had a MacBook once that was like that.

00:16:34 ◼   ► And basically, the bottom's all peeled off.

00:16:38 ◼   ► Hopefully, they got that solved now.

00:16:39 ◼   ► They did.

00:16:40 ◼   ► There was a MacBook like that?

00:16:41 ◼   ► Really?

00:16:42 ◼   ► Yes.

00:16:43 ◼   ► It was the white MacBook in 2008.

00:16:49 ◼   ► It was the one that had rounded corners,

00:16:53 ◼   ► but it was still plastic.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Yeah, and so it peeled off.

00:16:56 ◼   ► A bunch of them peeled off, 2008, 2009 in that range.

00:17:00 ◼   ► So I'm not saying this is going to happen with this,

00:17:02 ◼   ► but it just kind of reminded me of that.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I will say, though, and there have been pictures of this online.

00:17:09 ◼   ► There's like three or four different designs of Apple Pencil

00:17:11 ◼   ► Pro boxes, and they all have their own artwork on them.

00:17:15 ◼   ► And that's really fun.

00:17:16 ◼   ► I think that's cool.

00:17:18 ◼   ► I got the blue one that it says Pro,

00:17:22 ◼   ► and it's all fancy lettering.

00:17:25 ◼   ► Two more questions for you.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Did you see the nanotexture display?

00:17:29 ◼   ► I did not see the nanotexture display.

00:17:31 ◼   ► I'm not sure there was one out.

00:17:33 ◼   ► I'm in a smaller store than--

00:17:35 ◼   ► I'm in a flagship store.

00:17:37 ◼   ► But also, there were a lot of people around the iPad tables,

00:17:39 ◼   ► and it was pretty crowded.

00:17:42 ◼   ► So I don't know if there was one out there or not,

00:17:44 ◼   ► to be honest with you.

00:17:46 ◼   ► I'll have to try again.

00:17:48 ◼   ► And my other question is, did you walk out

00:17:49 ◼   ► the Apple Store with an iPad?

00:17:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:17:52 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:17:54 ◼   ► Silver 11 inch with the keyboard.

00:17:58 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:18:01 ◼   ► OK.

00:18:03 ◼   ► Care to explain?

00:18:05 ◼   ► I just-- I was overcome by the thinness.

00:18:08 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:18:10 ◼   ► OK.

00:18:11 ◼   ► OK.

00:18:11 ◼   ► Were you planning on it?

00:18:14 ◼   ► Not really.

00:18:14 ◼   ► I mean, it was in the back of my mind.

00:18:17 ◼   ► So you woke up this morning, you're like,

00:18:18 ◼   ► I'm going to go to the Apple Store.

00:18:20 ◼   ► But did you have the thought somewhere in your brain of,

00:18:23 ◼   ► like, hey, maybe I'll buy one?

00:18:24 ◼   ► Yeah, I did.

00:18:26 ◼   ► OK.

00:18:26 ◼   ► I do really like the Mini.

00:18:28 ◼   ► I don't think this would replace the Mini for me in some use

00:18:31 ◼   ► cases.

00:18:32 ◼   ► But there are times where I'm in meetings for stuff,

00:18:36 ◼   ► non-work related, that I don't want to take my MacBook Pro.

00:18:40 ◼   ► And the iPad's a pretty good fit.

00:18:42 ◼   ► And with the keyboard, that'd be nice.

00:18:43 ◼   ► So we're going to see.

00:18:44 ◼   ► I'm not coming into keeping it.

00:18:46 ◼   ► But I did the 11 inch silver.

00:18:49 ◼   ► The space black's still not dark enough for me.

00:18:51 ◼   ► So I did silver with the white keyboard.

00:18:55 ◼   ► So we'll see if that was a mistake.

00:18:57 ◼   ► We'll see how this thing looks.

00:18:58 ◼   ► But it's transferring stuff for my iPad Mini right now.

00:19:03 ◼   ► Nice, nice.

00:19:04 ◼   ► Do you think this could replace your iPad?

00:19:08 ◼   ► Not just for meetings, like you just mentioned,

00:19:11 ◼   ► but as a media tablet.

00:19:13 ◼   ► I think it could.

00:19:14 ◼   ► The thing that I like about the iPad Mini--

00:19:18 ◼   ► I wrote about this in the blog forever ago.

00:19:21 ◼   ► With the peak design stuff, kind of built like a bike pad,

00:19:26 ◼   ► where I can put my iPad Mini and mount it

00:19:28 ◼   ► on the handlebars on my road bike

00:19:31 ◼   ► when it's on my stationary trainer.

00:19:34 ◼   ► And I don't think an 11 would fit.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I was in another place in my garage

00:19:38 ◼   ► that the 11 inch can sit.

00:19:40 ◼   ► But it was kind of nice watching something in the garage,

00:19:43 ◼   ► riding the stationary bike with the Mini.

00:19:47 ◼   ► I mean, I'm going to go all in on this for the next 10 days

00:19:50 ◼   ► or so and see how it goes.

00:19:51 ◼   ► But I also don't want to manage two iPads.

00:19:55 ◼   ► I don't want to do that.

00:19:56 ◼   ► So I'm going to give it a shot and see how it goes.

00:20:00 ◼   ► All right.

00:20:01 ◼   ► Very well.

00:20:02 ◼   ► I was not expecting this.

00:20:04 ◼   ► Yeah, you were.

00:20:04 ◼   ► Part of you was.

00:20:06 ◼   ► Well, kind of.

00:20:07 ◼   ► But not immediately on day one.

00:20:11 ◼   ► Like I thought maybe eventually--

00:20:12 ◼   ► I was like, well, yeah, you know, but just talk about it.

00:20:15 ◼   ► So here we go.

00:20:17 ◼   ► I will say the bezels are too big.

00:20:20 ◼   ► They are unchanged from before, right?

00:20:24 ◼   ► To the point where, yeah, I would have liked to see something

00:20:27 ◼   ► like a little thinner.

00:20:28 ◼   ► But I'm sure there's like some science there in terms of like

00:20:32 ◼   ► maybe this is the ideal size for people with fat fingers

00:20:35 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:20:36 ◼   ► They want to make sure that they're grabbing the display.

00:20:39 ◼   ► And to be fair, like I do have pretty big hands.

00:20:42 ◼   ► And yeah, I could imagine like the thinner bezel

00:20:46 ◼   ► like being a problem even for me.

00:20:47 ◼   ► Even though like looking at it, it would be nice.

00:20:50 ◼   ► And they want the bezel to be uniform all the way around.

00:20:55 ◼   ► And I'd imagine the size of the camera and the Face ID sensor

00:21:00 ◼   ► and stuff help dictate that.

00:21:03 ◼   ► As is holding it, I totally get that as well.

00:21:06 ◼   ► But just seeing them in the store--

00:21:08 ◼   ► and I knew they were the same size.

00:21:10 ◼   ► We talked about it last week.

00:21:12 ◼   ► Because then you look at like the iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max.

00:21:15 ◼   ► It's like, gosh, right to the edge is pretty sweet.

00:21:18 ◼   ► So maybe that'll come in the future.

00:21:22 ◼   ► OK, we need to talk about your article.

00:21:25 ◼   ► Yeah, but you want to talk about iPadOS.

00:21:28 ◼   ► I do.

00:21:30 ◼   ► I do.

00:21:31 ◼   ► So you wrote this piece.

00:21:32 ◼   ► It came out on Monday with the embargo.

00:21:38 ◼   ► It's titled-- I'm sure everyone has seen it by now--

00:21:40 ◼   ► Not an iPad Pro Review--

00:21:41 ◼   ► Why iPadOS Still Doesn't Get the Basics Right.

00:21:44 ◼   ► So can you talk a little bit maybe

00:21:45 ◼   ► about the background of this?

00:21:47 ◼   ► People can also check out Upgrade and App Stories

00:21:50 ◼   ► this week.

00:21:50 ◼   ► We're not going to spend our whole time recapping this.

00:21:53 ◼   ► But tell us a little bit about the background of this

00:21:56 ◼   ► and how it's been since Monday.

00:22:00 ◼   ► So the background is that I did not get an iPad Pro Review

00:22:06 ◼   ► unit in time to publish a story.

00:22:09 ◼   ► I was offered one eventually toward the end of last week.

00:22:13 ◼   ► And it would have been delivered on Monday.

00:22:15 ◼   ► And the embargo was on Monday evening.

00:22:17 ◼   ► And it just felt like an unworkable deadline.

00:22:22 ◼   ► It was an unworkable deadline.

00:22:24 ◼   ► Especially since I knew that certain folks have been testing

00:22:28 ◼   ► them since Tuesday or Wednesday.

00:22:32 ◼   ► And I was under the impression that that was also

00:22:35 ◼   ► going to be my case.

00:22:36 ◼   ► And I had a whole plan.

00:22:37 ◼   ► I canceled some travel plans for the weekend.

00:22:44 ◼   ► So that's why I was home alone.

00:22:46 ◼   ► Sylvia was in Milan.

00:22:48 ◼   ► We had a sponsor lined up.

00:22:50 ◼   ► Like, I was ready.

00:22:51 ◼   ► I had an entire plan for a story.

00:22:53 ◼   ► Like, I'm going to have this review.

00:22:54 ◼   ► And I'm going to have this three-section review.

00:22:59 ◼   ► I'm going to talk about the hardware.

00:23:00 ◼   ► I'm going to talk about my weird experiments for gaming

00:23:04 ◼   ► and the Mac pad.

00:23:05 ◼   ► And I'm going to talk about the software.

00:23:08 ◼   ► And then I did not get an iPad.

00:23:10 ◼   ► So when I was told that it would arrive on Monday,

00:23:12 ◼   ► I just figured, well, that's too late.

00:23:15 ◼   ► And what am I going to do there?

00:23:17 ◼   ► Like, get an iPad on Monday, and there's an embargo

00:23:19 ◼   ► like six or eight hours later.

00:23:22 ◼   ► And I'm not exactly the type who does unboxing videos.

00:23:26 ◼   ► I mean, more power to you if you're a creator

00:23:28 ◼   ► and you do that type of content.

00:23:30 ◼   ► That's not what I'm interested in.

00:23:31 ◼   ► And so I just declined the review unit.

00:23:34 ◼   ► And I said it's probably best if it goes to somebody else.

00:23:37 ◼   ► And so instead, I had to pivot.

00:23:40 ◼   ► And I figured, well, I have plenty of time

00:23:44 ◼   ► to write anyway.

00:23:45 ◼   ► We have a sponsor that I would prefer to keep somehow,

00:23:51 ◼   ► especially these days.

00:23:52 ◼   ► It's pretty rough out there in the ad market.

00:23:55 ◼   ► And so I don't exactly want to give up on a sponsor.

00:23:59 ◼   ► And I thought, well, what was the plan

00:24:04 ◼   ► for the original review, right?

00:24:06 ◼   ► It was the hardware, the experiments, and the software.

00:24:10 ◼   ► And obviously, the one thing I could still talk about

00:24:13 ◼   ► was the software.

00:24:14 ◼   ► And so I started thinking about the software,

00:24:17 ◼   ► and I was thinking, well, how can I frame it

00:24:21 ◼   ► in a way that is still interesting?

00:24:22 ◼   ► And this was literally, I was having these thoughts

00:24:27 ◼   ► coming back from London.

00:24:28 ◼   ► And in London, Mike and I were having these conversations

00:24:33 ◼   ► about like, oh, you know how people are gonna react

00:24:36 ◼   ► to these iPads.

00:24:37 ◼   ► There's gonna be the whole cycle again

00:24:39 ◼   ► of iPad Pro reviews and people saying it's an iPad,

00:24:43 ◼   ► but it's still an iPad.

00:24:44 ◼   ► And then I listened to Upgrade,

00:24:47 ◼   ► and Jason also mentioning the software limitations

00:24:50 ◼   ► of iPadOS.

00:24:51 ◼   ► And so I had the idea of, okay, I don't have an iPad,

00:24:55 ◼   ► which is unfortunate, but I can probably still

00:24:59 ◼   ► carve my own niche on Monday,

00:25:03 ◼   ► basically zag instead of zigging, if you will,

00:25:10 ◼   ► or in video game terms, using Nintendo's Blue Ocean strategy.

00:25:15 ◼   ► Like, what if, instead of talking about the iPad Pro,

00:25:20 ◼   ► I talked about the software?

00:25:22 ◼   ► And what if I did something that I wanna see

00:25:26 ◼   ► out in the world, which is a comprehensive list

00:25:29 ◼   ► of all the problems of iPadOS?

00:25:31 ◼   ► And then I came back home, I talked about it with Silvia.

00:25:33 ◼   ► She was like, hey, that sounds like something interesting

00:25:36 ◼   ► that you can do, and probably gonna be a popular story.

00:25:39 ◼   ► And so that was the background.

00:25:41 ◼   ► And so I got to work and I made my own list of problems

00:25:46 ◼   ► of like, okay, when I'm working on the iPad,

00:25:49 ◼   ► what are the issues?

00:25:50 ◼   ► What are the things that, after so many years,

00:25:53 ◼   ► I keep mentioning?

00:25:54 ◼   ► And maybe these problems that I've mentioned

00:25:56 ◼   ► in a bunch of places, like in this review,

00:25:58 ◼   ► in that other review in 2019,

00:26:00 ◼   ► and then in this article in 2021.

00:26:02 ◼   ► Like, if you're a reader, you shouldn't have to follow

00:26:05 ◼   ► through this trail of complaints scattered through a decade.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Like, that doesn't seem convenient.

00:26:13 ◼   ► I thought what would be convenient is a single article

00:26:17 ◼   ► that people can point to and say,

00:26:19 ◼   ► these are the issues of iPadOS

00:26:21 ◼   ► that we think should be fixed.

00:26:24 ◼   ► So that was the background, that was the approach.

00:26:27 ◼   ► And then I got to work.

00:26:28 ◼   ► And yeah, I was alone by myself with the dogs.

00:26:32 ◼   ► And so for three days, I walked the dogs twice a day,

00:26:37 ◼   ► and then I cooked myself some meals

00:26:43 ◼   ► so as to not starve to death.

00:26:45 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:46 ◼   ► And I just spent the rest of my time writing and editing.

00:26:51 ◼   ► It's a great piece.

00:26:52 ◼   ► You let me read a couple drafts of it over the weekend

00:26:55 ◼   ► as you were working.

00:26:57 ◼   ► Definitely, I think you met the goal

00:26:59 ◼   ► of being like a comprehensive place

00:27:01 ◼   ► to talk about where iPadOS falls down.

00:27:05 ◼   ► And again, people need to go read this article.

00:27:08 ◼   ► I said this on upgrade, and I'll say it to you directly.

00:27:11 ◼   ► I don't think anyone thinks deeper

00:27:13 ◼   ► about the iPad and iPadOS than you do.

00:27:16 ◼   ► I think including a lot of people

00:27:17 ◼   ► who work in a certain round building.

00:27:19 ◼   ► And you have gone through and talked about all sorts

00:27:23 ◼   ► of areas where this comes apart.

00:27:29 ◼   ► What you don't say in the article

00:27:31 ◼   ► and what you're not saying now

00:27:32 ◼   ► is that the iPad should be the Mac.

00:27:36 ◼   ► No.

00:27:37 ◼   ► You still want them to be different,

00:27:39 ◼   ► but some people have either seen the article

00:27:43 ◼   ► or saw the headline or heard us talk about it.

00:27:45 ◼   ► Right, right.

00:27:47 ◼   ► And have jumped to that.

00:27:48 ◼   ► Yeah, so this is, and this is,

00:27:51 ◼   ► the reason this happens is that people,

00:27:54 ◼   ► when they're looking at this issue,

00:27:57 ◼   ► they either want things to be black and white.

00:28:01 ◼   ► And I guess I'm saying that there are so many shades

00:28:05 ◼   ► of gray in the middle.

00:28:06 ◼   ► What I think I'm saying, what I think Jason is saying,

00:28:11 ◼   ► and a bunch of other people are saying

00:28:12 ◼   ► is that in an ideal scenario,

00:28:15 ◼   ► it should be iPadOS running on the iPad.

00:28:19 ◼   ► I would take iPads running iPadOS forever.

00:28:23 ◼   ► I felt the need to actually write this sentence

00:28:25 ◼   ► in the article because maybe it wasn't clear enough.

00:28:28 ◼   ► In an ideal scenario, iPadOS is the operating system

00:28:33 ◼   ► built for these convertible devices

00:28:36 ◼   ► that can be tablets with touch interactions,

00:28:39 ◼   ► but also be snapped into a case,

00:28:40 ◼   ► and they become this laptop-like devices.

00:28:43 ◼   ► That's the ideal scenario.

00:28:44 ◼   ► However, this ideal scenario is not happening.

00:28:47 ◼   ► Like, that ideal does not meet reality,

00:28:51 ◼   ► because in reality, we have iPadOS

00:28:54 ◼   ► that is still largely based on iOS.

00:28:58 ◼   ► I was reminded of this by Steve Tranton Smith.

00:29:01 ◼   ► When you install the simulator with Xcode on a Mac,

00:29:05 ◼   ► the iPadOS is literally contained in the iOS file.

00:29:11 ◼   ► So it's still very much based on iOS,

00:29:14 ◼   ► and iPadOS is, to an extent, like a marketing name

00:29:18 ◼   ► for the exclusive features that the iPad has

00:29:21 ◼   ► compared to an iPhone.

00:29:24 ◼   ► But in reality, as I was saying,

00:29:27 ◼   ► I don't think iPadOS is improving,

00:29:30 ◼   ► or has improved over the past nine years,

00:29:33 ◼   ► even if you don't...

00:29:34 ◼   ► So the iPad is 14 years old, right?

00:29:36 ◼   ► But let's not say that the iPad is 14 years old.

00:29:38 ◼   ► Let's just start counting since the first iPad Pro came out,

00:29:42 ◼   ► because maybe that's the second era of the iPad.

00:29:44 ◼   ► So 2015, 2024, that's nine years.

00:29:47 ◼   ► Do we think that in nine years,

00:29:50 ◼   ► iOS and then iPadOS for these computers have...

00:29:55 ◼   ► Do we think that the OS has advanced quickly enough

00:29:59 ◼   ► over the past nine years?

00:30:01 ◼   ► It has improved.

00:30:02 ◼   ► And this is the thing that Jason and I

00:30:04 ◼   ► we've been saying, it has improved, right?

00:30:06 ◼   ► We have USB support, like USB mass storage support.

00:30:12 ◼   ► We have Stage Manager, which, for better or worse,

00:30:16 ◼   ► it lets you use up to four windows at once.

00:30:19 ◼   ► There's better support for keyboard shortcuts.

00:30:20 ◼   ► There's better accessories.

00:30:22 ◼   ► I'm not saying that it hasn't improved at all.

00:30:25 ◼   ► Like it's not like you buy an iPad Pro in 2024,

00:30:28 ◼   ► and it's still at iOS 9 level of functionalities.

00:30:32 ◼   ► - Yeah. - But...

00:30:33 ◼   ► - The weird app picker on the side.

00:30:35 ◼   ► - Right.

00:30:36 ◼   ► I mean, that was actually pretty good, but yeah.

00:30:38 ◼   ► What I'm saying is, is that, is iPadOS 17 enough?

00:30:44 ◼   ► And I don't think it is,

00:30:46 ◼   ► especially when you spend all that money on an iPad Pro,

00:30:50 ◼   ► a computer that is advertised as a professional machine.

00:30:54 ◼   ► I mean, I literally, when I was working on the story,

00:30:57 ◼   ► I literally saved some of the marketing taglines

00:31:01 ◼   ► from apple.com, and they...

00:31:04 ◼   ► I mean, besides the unbelievably thin stuff,

00:31:09 ◼   ► they do mention things like powering

00:31:11 ◼   ► all of your Pro workflows, or...

00:31:15 ◼   ► They sell this as a computer.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Yeah, like, "iPadOS is designed to let you power

00:31:22 ◼   ► through advanced workflows and do all the things you love

00:31:25 ◼   ► with ease and simplicity."

00:31:26 ◼   ► Like, they're not saying, "We're selling you this tablet

00:31:30 ◼   ► if you are a video maker, an artist, a YouTuber,

00:31:34 ◼   ► or a photographer."

00:31:37 ◼   ► Like, they're not saying that.

00:31:38 ◼   ► They're saying, "This is a computer that lets you,

00:31:41 ◼   ► that powers all of your Pro workflows."

00:31:43 ◼   ► And so my thought was,

00:31:48 ◼   ► is the iPadOS that we have today,

00:31:50 ◼   ► has it changed enough over the past nine years

00:31:54 ◼   ► to power all kinds of Pro workflows?

00:31:57 ◼   ► And I don't think it has.

00:31:59 ◼   ► All of this...

00:32:01 ◼   ► And I thought this was gonna be quite easy

00:32:04 ◼   ► to convey as a message.

00:32:06 ◼   ► Arguing for iPadOS to get better

00:32:10 ◼   ► does not equal, "Oh, just put MacOS on the iPad."

00:32:14 ◼   ► And you may say, "But, Tichy, you created a MacPad."

00:32:16 ◼   ► And yes, I did,

00:32:18 ◼   ► because it was like a Hail Mary move.

00:32:22 ◼   ► Like, okay, if I wanna have an iPad

00:32:27 ◼   ► with the same degree of functionality

00:32:32 ◼   ► as a Mac, maybe this is a way to do it.

00:32:35 ◼   ► But like I said, ideally, it should be iPadOS,

00:32:39 ◼   ► and the iPadOS team looking at MacOS and saying,

00:32:42 ◼   ► "Okay, what is it that people are able to do on a Mac?"

00:32:46 ◼   ► And we don't necessarily need to copy the OS.

00:32:48 ◼   ► We don't necessarily need to carbon copy feature by feature

00:32:52 ◼   ► exactly how they work on the Mac.

00:32:55 ◼   ► But what is it, the goal behind the feature

00:32:58 ◼   ► that people wanna achieve?

00:33:00 ◼   ► And can we bring that to iPadOS?

00:33:02 ◼   ► I think that's a pretty easy concept to understand.

00:33:05 ◼   ► But some people use it as a...

00:33:07 ◼   ► They have this shortcut, right,

00:33:10 ◼   ► to just say, "Oh, these people,

00:33:11 ◼   ► they just wanna see the Mac turning into an iPad."

00:33:14 ◼   ► Then no, like, that's all we're saying.

00:33:19 ◼   ► If they did that, then what's the point?

00:33:24 ◼   ► There are tons and tons of people who love the iPad

00:33:29 ◼   ► for exactly what it is, right?

00:33:32 ◼   ► And we've talked about this before.

00:33:36 ◼   ► Apple, with the iPad more than anything else, I feel like,

00:33:39 ◼   ► and their whole product family,

00:33:42 ◼   ► they have to, or like I said, don't have to,

00:33:45 ◼   ► but we would like them to cater

00:33:48 ◼   ► to many, many different groups, right?

00:33:51 ◼   ► The people who are just gonna use one app at a time

00:33:53 ◼   ► like they always have on a base iPad,

00:33:56 ◼   ► they're gonna keep it for 10 years.

00:33:58 ◼   ► That's a huge number of iPad users, right?

00:34:01 ◼   ► Who are faithful Apple customers,

00:34:04 ◼   ► so Apple should serve them.

00:34:06 ◼   ► But then you also have people who want to do more with it,

00:34:10 ◼   ► who do bump up into the upper limits.

00:34:12 ◼   ► And I think Stage Manager is like the perfect example

00:34:16 ◼   ► of Apple trying to split the difference, right?

00:34:18 ◼   ► It's not on by default.

00:34:20 ◼   ► You gotta go into Control Center.

00:34:21 ◼   ► It's this totally different mode

00:34:22 ◼   ► that you have to understand how it works,

00:34:24 ◼   ► and it's really kind of weird in places.

00:34:27 ◼   ► But if you don't want it or know that it exists,

00:34:30 ◼   ► you will probably never encounter it either.

00:34:33 ◼   ► And that's hard.

00:34:34 ◼   ► I don't think you, I don't think me,

00:34:36 ◼   ► like Jason, we are not saying that's not hard.

00:34:39 ◼   ► What we are saying is Apple should do a better job at it.

00:34:42 ◼   ► And how do you preserve the simplicity

00:34:45 ◼   ► of this operating system,

00:34:47 ◼   ► but add complexity and add power for those who want it?

00:34:52 ◼   ► And I think the, just put macOS on it.

00:34:56 ◼   ► And I get it.

00:34:57 ◼   ► Jason wrote that piece before the event,

00:35:00 ◼   ► and I linked to it.

00:35:02 ◼   ► And I'd say something along the lines of

00:35:03 ◼   ► what if the future of the iPad Pro was with us all along?

00:35:06 ◼   ► Like that is a route they could go,

00:35:10 ◼   ► but it's a route that,

00:35:12 ◼   ► while it may be sort of emotionally interesting

00:35:16 ◼   ► for those of us who are Mac-centric,

00:35:19 ◼   ► it's probably not the right answer for the product

00:35:21 ◼   ► or for Apple.

00:35:22 ◼   ► And it probably just introduces confusion

00:35:27 ◼   ► into what is already a kind of a messy situation

00:35:30 ◼   ► between the iPad and the Mac.

00:35:32 ◼   ► And I don't have anyone who's trying to solve that

00:35:36 ◼   ► in Cupertino, but I think to your point,

00:35:39 ◼   ► I wonder if they're kind of afraid of trying to solve it.

00:35:44 ◼   ► I wonder if they're looking at the iPad and thinking,

00:35:46 ◼   ► well, gosh, maybe we just don't need to care

00:35:49 ◼   ► to those people, and eventually they'll just buy Macs

00:35:51 ◼   ► and be quiet, or they'll just realize like,

00:35:54 ◼   ► okay, they're like the upper 1%.

00:35:57 ◼   ► And again, we don't want them to do that,

00:35:59 ◼   ► but I have this like growing feeling

00:36:01 ◼   ► that that's kind of what they've done,

00:36:03 ◼   ► that they've decided that for folks like you and Jason

00:36:06 ◼   ► who wanna do more than Apple's just like,

00:36:08 ◼   ► well, it's kind of up to them.

00:36:09 ◼   ► We're not gonna give them what they want or need.

00:36:12 ◼   ► - So there's a couple of things I wanna say.

00:36:16 ◼   ► I think it's funny, first of all,

00:36:17 ◼   ► that over the past few days, I mean, obviously,

00:36:22 ◼   ► I'm incredibly happy and humbled

00:36:24 ◼   ► with the sort of popularity of the story.

00:36:28 ◼   ► I can tell you that it's been way more popular

00:36:33 ◼   ► than any traditional iPad Pro review I've ever done.

00:36:37 ◼   ► - Wow.

00:36:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, like it's been incredible.

00:36:41 ◼   ► Like it's been on the front page of Reddit, Hacker News,

00:36:45 ◼   ► which may not like those websites,

00:36:47 ◼   ► but they sure drive a lot of traffic.

00:36:49 ◼   ► - Yes, they do.

00:36:50 ◼   ► - And that's a great thing

00:36:52 ◼   ► for a small publication like ours.

00:36:56 ◼   ► But anyway, I think it's funny

00:36:59 ◼   ► that a comment I've seen over the past few days is,

00:37:02 ◼   ► oh, these people, whereby these people,

00:37:04 ◼   ► they refer to me, Jason, Steve Trotton Smith, maybe others,

00:37:09 ◼   ► they think they know better than Apple.

00:37:11 ◼   ► Fair criticism, but the same people years ago

00:37:17 ◼   ► when the whole MacBook drama was unfolding,

00:37:25 ◼   ► I could have said, oh, these folks,

00:37:26 ◼   ► they think they know better than Apple.

00:37:29 ◼   ► When they said, oh, Apple has lost its way with the Mac,

00:37:33 ◼   ► the keyboard is bad, these computers are bad,

00:37:36 ◼   ► the touch bar is bad.

00:37:38 ◼   ► And so I think it's funny that when it's not about the Mac,

00:37:42 ◼   ► it's other people who know better than Apple,

00:37:46 ◼   ► but when it's about the Mac,

00:37:48 ◼   ► they do know better than Apple, and that's fine.

00:37:51 ◼   ► So I think the consistency there is fascinating.

00:37:55 ◼   ► And I also take issue with a couple of quotes

00:37:59 ◼   ► from Greg Joswiak and John Turness

00:38:02 ◼   ► on this Fast Company interview.

00:38:04 ◼   ► The first one is a Joswiak quote,

00:38:08 ◼   ► basically saying that there's room for both an iPad and a Mac

00:38:14 ◼   ► in Apple's vision for personal computing.

00:38:16 ◼   ► Joswiak saying, "The fact is that the majority

00:38:19 ◼   ► of Mac customers have an iPad, and they use them both,

00:38:22 ◼   ► and a large proportion of iPad customers have a Mac,

00:38:25 ◼   ► or some of them have Windows PCs."

00:38:27 ◼   ► The second part of the sentence,

00:38:30 ◼   ► "And a large portion of iPad customers have a Mac."

00:38:33 ◼   ► What's funny there is that, yeah,

00:38:35 ◼   ► I'm sure they do have a Mac, but what's unsaid here

00:38:39 ◼   ► is that a large portion of iPad customers need to have a Mac

00:38:43 ◼   ► if they wanna perform certain functionalities,

00:38:45 ◼   ► if they wanna do certain things,

00:38:47 ◼   ► because an iPad doesn't let them do it.

00:38:49 ◼   ► An iPad by itself, like so many features,

00:38:51 ◼   ► are just not supported on the iPad.

00:38:53 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm sure they have a Mac,

00:38:55 ◼   ► but maybe parentheses need to have a Mac.

00:38:59 ◼   ► That's an important clarification.

00:39:01 ◼   ► And the other is a Turness answer,

00:39:05 ◼   ► sort of trying to retcon, in a way, the meaning of pro.

00:39:09 ◼   ► But Turness also pushes back on the notion

00:39:11 ◼   ► that the iPad Pro is less than pro.

00:39:13 ◼   ► A term, he says, that isn't defined by the Mac.

00:39:16 ◼   ► There's a funny perception thing he says.

00:39:18 ◼   ► Maybe it's Mac people with their notion

00:39:20 ◼   ► of what professional is.

00:39:22 ◼   ► You saw what Procreate team has done

00:39:24 ◼   ► with the Apple Pencil Pro.

00:39:25 ◼   ► There is no more professional drawing application

00:39:27 ◼   ► in the world than Procreate.

00:39:28 ◼   ► I mean, they're the lifeblood of artists.

00:39:30 ◼   ► Sure, I mean, Procreate is incredible.

00:39:32 ◼   ► The Apple Pencil Pro is incredible.

00:39:34 ◼   ► And I've seen artists do incredible work on the iPad Pro.

00:39:38 ◼   ► But this is not, like, when did the Pro in iPad Pro

00:39:43 ◼   ► became an exclusionary market?

00:39:46 ◼   ► I'm not sure, because it was sold as a pro device.

00:39:49 ◼   ► And it's still advertised, if I'm not mistaken.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Like, you go to apple.com/iPadPro,

00:39:54 ◼   ► and it says all kinds of pro workflows,

00:39:57 ◼   ► apps for all kinds of amazing,

00:39:59 ◼   ► I'm quoting here from apple.com.

00:40:01 ◼   ► It's not saying, oh, well, not pro, like on the Mac,

00:40:04 ◼   ► but pro if you use Procreate.

00:40:06 ◼   ► Like, it's not saying that.

00:40:08 ◼   ► So I think it's convenient to say, oh, well,

00:40:10 ◼   ► I'm not sure where this discussion about pro comes from.

00:40:14 ◼   ► Must be the Mac people.

00:40:15 ◼   ► Like, no, you're selling a tablet that costs,

00:40:20 ◼   ► you can spec out to 3,000 euros,

00:40:24 ◼   ► and it literally, literally comes with a keyboard

00:40:27 ◼   ► that looks like a MacBook.

00:40:28 ◼   ► And it goes without saying, I think,

00:40:31 ◼   ► that you would expect some people to say,

00:40:32 ◼   ► hey, can I use this as a MacBook?

00:40:34 ◼   ► Like, I think it's pretty clear cut.

00:40:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I could have bought

00:40:40 ◼   ► most of a MacBook Air today.

00:40:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:44 ◼   ► Yeah, that Fast Company article rubbed me off

00:40:45 ◼   ► all sorts of the wrong way as well.

00:40:48 ◼   ► I think the retconning of pro in particular jumped out.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Jaws also says, well, we simplified the lineup

00:40:54 ◼   ► in the Apple Pencil story today.

00:40:55 ◼   ► Like, did you?

00:40:57 ◼   ► Did you though?

00:40:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:41:00 ◼   ► Jason Snell, obviously.

00:41:01 ◼   ► The Jason Snell from the chat saying,

00:41:04 ◼   ► this is also something that I wanted to mention.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Happens every time.

00:41:07 ◼   ► A whole lot of people who don't use or care about the iPad

00:41:11 ◼   ► think it's fine.

00:41:12 ◼   ► People who actually use it a lot think it needs work.

00:41:15 ◼   ► No one else, like someone who doesn't use an iPad

00:41:21 ◼   ► to tell you that your opinion about the iPad is wrong.

00:41:24 ◼   ► So yeah, this unfortunately has happened,

00:41:27 ◼   ► will continue to happen, and it is what it is.

00:41:30 ◼   ► But yeah, I mean, what I think is out there in the article,

00:41:34 ◼   ► so folks who have been sort of putting words in my mouth

00:41:38 ◼   ► for the past few days, like, no, go read the story.

00:41:41 ◼   ► My opinion is there.

00:41:42 ◼   ► That's what I think.

00:41:44 ◼   ► And I do, and all this to reiterate once again,

00:41:47 ◼   ► I love the iPad.

00:41:50 ◼   ► I just, I literally bought one.

00:41:53 ◼   ► That's what I'm gonna use.

00:41:55 ◼   ► I want it to get better.

00:41:56 ◼   ► I want it to keep running iPadOS.

00:41:58 ◼   ► In an ideal scenario, it should keep running iPadOS.

00:42:00 ◼   ► I don't want it to turn into a Mac.

00:42:04 ◼   ► I don't think I know better than Apple.

00:42:06 ◼   ► I, what else?

00:42:07 ◼   ► Like all these things that people have been saying.

00:42:09 ◼   ► I just think it needs some love.

00:42:11 ◼   ► That's all.

00:42:12 ◼   ► And it hasn't gotten enough love,

00:42:14 ◼   ► and I don't think there's anything bad in thinking that.

00:42:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, if you didn't care about the platform,

00:42:20 ◼   ► you wouldn't go out of your way to criticize it.

00:42:23 ◼   ► - I would be so much happier, you know,

00:42:26 ◼   ► if I was just a straight up MacBook Air person.

00:42:29 ◼   ► Like life would be easier.

00:42:31 ◼   ► So I inflicted this on myself, and I know that.

00:42:34 ◼   ► But you know, life's fun also, so.

00:42:38 ◼   ► - It's true.

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00:44:07 ◼   ► So Stephen, there was an OpenAI spring event,

00:44:11 ◼   ► spring update yesterday.

00:44:13 ◼   ► They had some major news to share.

00:44:15 ◼   ► They had a keynote that was,

00:44:19 ◼   ► like this video live streamed on YouTube,

00:44:21 ◼   ► and there was also like a sort of mini

00:44:23 ◼   ► in-person gathering event.

00:44:27 ◼   ► And there were some demos,

00:44:29 ◼   ► but the big news is the new model, ChatGPT 4.0,

00:44:34 ◼   ► which is now 4.0 in terms of like

00:44:36 ◼   ► the version number.

00:44:38 ◼   ► The O stands for Omni model, I think.

00:44:42 ◼   ► - That's a weird name, Iskim.

00:44:43 ◼   ► - It's a weird name.

00:44:45 ◼   ► But so I watched the event.

00:44:49 ◼   ► I saw the demos.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Did you see the event?

00:44:51 ◼   ► Did you watch it on YouTube?

00:44:52 ◼   ► - I did.

00:44:53 ◼   ► I watched it after the fact.

00:44:56 ◼   ► It's like what, 30 minutes or so, pretty short.

00:44:59 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:45:00 ◼   ► - Kind of jumbled, I think, in terms of order things.

00:45:02 ◼   ► Like they're a new company.

00:45:03 ◼   ► They'll figure out keynotes.

00:45:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, so the idea being that,

00:45:07 ◼   ► so this new model, ChatGPT 4.0,

00:45:09 ◼   ► it's gonna be free for everyone,

00:45:13 ◼   ► but people who pay ChatGPT+ subscribers,

00:45:17 ◼   ► they're gonna have 5x the capacity,

00:45:19 ◼   ► whatever that's gonna mean.

00:45:21 ◼   ► There's a Mac app that is rolling out

00:45:25 ◼   ► that sort of lets you chat with ChatGPT,

00:45:29 ◼   ► but also lets you show your screen to ChatGPT,

00:45:34 ◼   ► which unlocks some incredible features

00:45:36 ◼   ► that we're gonna talk about.

00:45:37 ◼   ► And the big news, obviously, is that ChatGPT 4.0

00:45:41 ◼   ► is a multi-model AI that works across text,

00:45:46 ◼   ► voice input, and vision.

00:45:49 ◼   ► So you can mix and match all these things

00:45:53 ◼   ► when having a conversation with ChatGPT

00:45:55 ◼   ► to do all kinds of input,

00:45:58 ◼   ► like starting with a text query,

00:46:01 ◼   ► jumping to, "Hey, let me show you a photo or a selfie

00:46:05 ◼   ► or a screenshot to actually let me share my screen with you."

00:46:09 ◼   ► Like, I think, and I mean, we can talk about this,

00:46:13 ◼   ► I think it was a really fascinating demo,

00:46:18 ◼   ► and I think it was a great example

00:46:23 ◼   ► of why I think Apple must be concerned

00:46:28 ◼   ► in terms of, I don't wanna say losing the AI race,

00:46:33 ◼   ► as if to make it sound that Apple is behind

00:46:37 ◼   ► and they're doomed, but in the sense of like,

00:46:40 ◼   ► this is a really good demo that resonates with people.

00:46:44 ◼   ► Google has demos that resonate with people

00:46:46 ◼   ► and they run commercials that people understand.

00:46:50 ◼   ► And I think Apple, I understand,

00:46:52 ◼   ► having seen what ChatGPT can do now,

00:46:55 ◼   ► I understand why Apple must be thinking,

00:46:58 ◼   ► "Hey, we gotta make sure that Siri and our iPhones

00:47:02 ◼   ► can also impress people like this."

00:47:04 ◼   ► Because this is obviously something that is here to stay.

00:47:07 ◼   ► Yeah, I did not go into this event.

00:47:12 ◼   ► I mean, I'd kinda seen the rumors

00:47:13 ◼   ► and there was a report that they're doing a search engine

00:47:16 ◼   ► and that ended up not being true, at least for now.

00:47:20 ◼   ► But I left it really pretty blown away

00:47:24 ◼   ► by the multimodal idea,

00:47:25 ◼   ► that this thing is working across voice, text, and vision.

00:47:28 ◼   ► So it can see what's on your screen.

00:47:30 ◼   ► It can look through the cameras on your iPhone app.

00:47:33 ◼   ► It's still a large language model, right?

00:47:36 ◼   ► It still does kind of weird things.

00:47:40 ◼   ► I think some of the things they've done

00:47:42 ◼   ► to make it appear faster are a little problematic.

00:47:45 ◼   ► Like I don't love some of the filler talk.

00:47:47 ◼   ► We can talk about personality stuff too, I think we should.

00:47:52 ◼   ► But the headline here for me, at least,

00:47:55 ◼   ► is that OpenAI has built an assistant

00:47:59 ◼   ► in the same class as Siri and Google Assistant and others,

00:48:04 ◼   ► but in their own way through their own app,

00:48:06 ◼   ► not built into the operating system.

00:48:09 ◼   ► And that's really interesting to me

00:48:12 ◼   ► because up to this point, these things have been OS features,

00:48:14 ◼   ► not third-party app features,

00:48:17 ◼   ► but that has not stopped OpenAI from taking this on.

00:48:20 ◼   ► I think if this is the sort of thing

00:48:24 ◼   ► that we are going to see at WWDC,

00:48:28 ◼   ► and if it works as impressively, or at least close to

00:48:33 ◼   ► as impressive as chat GPG is these days,

00:48:36 ◼   ► I'm very excited about what Apple could do here.

00:48:40 ◼   ► Like the idea of combining multiple types of input, right?

00:48:45 ◼   ► And having maybe a Siri AI that has access

00:48:49 ◼   ► to the camera feed or to, quote unquote, real-time vision,

00:48:55 ◼   ► on your phone.

00:48:56 ◼   ► I don't know, after seeing this, like it's funny,

00:48:59 ◼   ► because after seeing this OpenAI event,

00:49:02 ◼   ► I went from being like, oh, I guess Apple will do AI stuff

00:49:07 ◼   ► in iOS 18, to being a lot more excited.

00:49:11 ◼   ► Because like when it was just a chat bot, I don't know,

00:49:14 ◼   ► I was like, yeah, I mean, it's cool,

00:49:15 ◼   ► but you're still going to a website

00:49:18 ◼   ► and you're chatting with an assistant on a website.

00:49:21 ◼   ► But this level of OS integration, much more closely tied

00:49:25 ◼   ► to your computer and your camera and your screen,

00:49:30 ◼   ► that I think is a lot more interesting.

00:49:32 ◼   ► Totally agree.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Can we talk about, there's just one moment in the demo

00:49:40 ◼   ► where the personal stage asks chat GPT for advice

00:49:45 ◼   ► on how to remain calm before an audience.

00:49:48 ◼   ► And--

00:49:51 ◼   ► The breathing.

00:49:52 ◼   ► The breathing.

00:49:53 ◼   ► And in this interaction, he breathes quickly and loudly,

00:49:58 ◼   ► and it hears it and tells him to slow down his breathing.

00:50:02 ◼   ► And that moment I was like, whoa, we, I don't know why,

00:50:07 ◼   ► that moment really got to me.

00:50:08 ◼   ► I was like, okay, this thing has a level of understanding

00:50:12 ◼   ► that is definitely beyond other tools like this

00:50:15 ◼   ► that we've seen.

00:50:16 ◼   ► It is kind of scary, like the idea of the model

00:50:20 ◼   ► being able to recognize human emotion and context,

00:50:24 ◼   ► like beyond the topic of the conversation,

00:50:28 ◼   ► that it is a little unsettling.

00:50:33 ◼   ► And to be fair, like, are we really going,

00:50:37 ◼   ► like it makes for an excellent demo.

00:50:39 ◼   ► I will say that.

00:50:40 ◼   ► It makes for an excellent demo.

00:50:42 ◼   ► But do you actually imagine a scenario

00:50:45 ◼   ► in which in real life you're about to step on a stage

00:50:48 ◼   ► to give a presentation, and you pull out your phone,

00:50:50 ◼   ► and you're like, hey, hey, assistant,

00:50:52 ◼   ► I need tips to calm down.

00:50:54 ◼   ► Or are you gonna be your partner?

00:50:56 ◼   ► Are you gonna call your partner or just breathe on your own?

00:51:00 ◼   ► Do you need an assistant to tell you, hey,

00:51:02 ◼   ► breathe slowly and let me listen to your breathing?

00:51:05 ◼   ► Is that a real life scenario?

00:51:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:51:09 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:51:10 ◼   ► It makes for an excellent demo, and it is incredible

00:51:14 ◼   ► that the model can understand that.

00:51:16 ◼   ► And maybe I'm thinking too small,

00:51:18 ◼   ► but then you also gotta always keep in mind,

00:51:21 ◼   ► like, okay, but what are the real life applications of this?

00:51:24 ◼   ► And so, I don't know.

00:51:25 ◼   ► The vision stuff, for me, like being able to mix and match,

00:51:31 ◼   ► I think, multiple, like a command that I give you via voice

00:51:36 ◼   ► and something that you see in the same conversation

00:51:41 ◼   ► while retaining the context from one query to another,

00:51:46 ◼   ► that to me is the real step beyond.

00:51:48 ◼   ► And of course, being able to share your screen.

00:51:51 ◼   ► And when at one point one of the presenters went like,

00:51:53 ◼   ► okay, hold on, just let me share my screen with you.

00:51:57 ◼   ► Like that was the point where I was like,

00:51:59 ◼   ► yeah, that's like having,

00:52:02 ◼   ► because it really feels like having an assistant

00:52:04 ◼   ► right by your side, right?

00:52:05 ◼   ► Instead of like just that what we have today,

00:52:09 ◼   ► which is like, oh, let me stop, open Siri,

00:52:12 ◼   ► ask a question and then come back.

00:52:14 ◼   ► It's much more fluid and integrated.

00:52:16 ◼   ► - And that makes it more natural.

00:52:19 ◼   ► It makes it like just something you're speaking to,

00:52:22 ◼   ► which I think Apple has had that,

00:52:25 ◼   ► I think one reason Siri has been,

00:52:29 ◼   ► for better or for worse,

00:52:31 ◼   ► sort of infused with a sense of humor in Apple's eyes

00:52:34 ◼   ► or the personality that it has is to make it more human.

00:52:37 ◼   ► And with the chat, GBT voice stuff,

00:52:41 ◼   ► you can tell it how you want it to act,

00:52:44 ◼   ► how you want it to sound.

00:52:45 ◼   ► So you can make it more sarcastic or more emotive.

00:52:49 ◼   ► And that's wild.

00:52:51 ◼   ► 'Cause again, this is something else

00:52:52 ◼   ► that has been controlled from the vendor side,

00:52:55 ◼   ► I think whoever designed it gave it its personality.

00:52:58 ◼   ► I'm using a lot of air quotes and all of this stuff.

00:53:00 ◼   ► But with this tool, you can say, actually, no,

00:53:03 ◼   ► I want you to be a bit more serious or a bit more funny.

00:53:06 ◼   ► Kind of like the personality slider

00:53:08 ◼   ► in Carrot Weather, I guess.

00:53:09 ◼   ► That's what I thought of when watching this.

00:53:11 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Yes.

00:53:12 ◼   ► - That is a feature I've always wanted for Siri itself.

00:53:15 ◼   ► Just let me tweak your personality with a slider.

00:53:18 ◼   ► I think it's like the carrot feature is so simple,

00:53:21 ◼   ► but so well done.

00:53:23 ◼   ► And to be fair, the chat, GBT demo yesterday,

00:53:27 ◼   ► the assistant was really, really eager

00:53:32 ◼   ► to talk to these people, maybe a little too much.

00:53:36 ◼   ► She, I say she, it's code.

00:53:41 ◼   ► But I don't know, it was maybe a little too emotive

00:53:45 ◼   ► and conversational to a degree.

00:53:48 ◼   ► - But I think part of that is to--

00:53:50 ◼   ► - But to impress people, yeah.

00:53:52 ◼   ► - It's to impress people, but it also,

00:53:54 ◼   ► those Humane.ai and Rabbit R1 videos,

00:53:58 ◼   ► where you ask it a thing and you're just waiting

00:54:00 ◼   ► for 30 seconds for it to get its answer,

00:54:04 ◼   ► they say this new model is much faster,

00:54:07 ◼   ► but I can't help but think also some of the talking

00:54:10 ◼   ► is to cover up the fact that it's doing stuff

00:54:12 ◼   ► in the background and waiting for information

00:54:14 ◼   ► to come back from the model.

00:54:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, because while it's saying,

00:54:18 ◼   ► oh, sure, let me look that up,

00:54:20 ◼   ► in the meantime, it's already processing.

00:54:21 ◼   ► - It's like stalling, you know?

00:54:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, you're like, oh, you're so kind,

00:54:26 ◼   ► but in the meantime, it's actually working

00:54:27 ◼   ► behind the scenes.

00:54:28 ◼   ► - Yeah.

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00:56:52 ◼   ► So the next day after opening,

00:56:57 ◼   ► OpenEye went on Monday, Google went on Tuesday.

00:57:00 ◼   ► I'm sure that wasn't an accident.

00:57:02 ◼   ► We had the first day of Google I/O

00:57:06 ◼   ► and there was so much announced,

00:57:09 ◼   ► like y'all, you just have to like keep scrolling

00:57:11 ◼   ► and scrolling in our Notion document,

00:57:13 ◼   ► like read all the notes I took on Google I/O.

00:57:15 ◼   ► But like previous I/Os,

00:57:18 ◼   ► it feels like it's sort of a scatter shot.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Like these are a bunch of things we're working on

00:57:22 ◼   ► and there's not necessarily a...

00:57:23 ◼   ► And some of them will ship.

00:57:25 ◼   ► And others will ship but be abandoned.

00:57:28 ◼   ► Like the vaporware percentage of Google I/O

00:57:32 ◼   ► way higher than I think OpenEye's spring update.

00:57:35 ◼   ► - I think at this point,

00:57:36 ◼   ► the vaporware percentage of Google I/O

00:57:38 ◼   ► is higher than a Microsoft concept video.

00:57:41 ◼   ► - But one day they're gonna make

00:57:45 ◼   ► that little foldable courier.

00:57:46 ◼   ► He's gonna be so sick.

00:57:48 ◼   ► - I still want that.

00:57:49 ◼   ► - Did you see the video of like the DJ person

00:57:51 ◼   ► like running around?

00:57:52 ◼   ► - I have been following the DJ person online for years.

00:57:57 ◼   ► - Really, I need to know, tell me everything.

00:57:59 ◼   ► Tell me everything.

00:58:00 ◼   ► - They started doing this.

00:58:03 ◼   ► I think it was a pandemic thing.

00:58:05 ◼   ► DJing in...

00:58:09 ◼   ► His name is Marc Reboulet, I think.

00:58:14 ◼   ► Yeah, they started doing this in the living room

00:58:17 ◼   ► in the bathrobe years ago.

00:58:19 ◼   ► And I don't know, the guy's so fun,

00:58:22 ◼   ► has that sort of energy.

00:58:24 ◼   ► He's really into the music.

00:58:25 ◼   ► And actually like pretty good DJ, I would also say.

00:58:29 ◼   ► And yeah, it's funny, especially reading the comments

00:58:33 ◼   ► on from people, people calling him king

00:58:37 ◼   ► and all kinds of things.

00:58:38 ◼   ► Yeah, and like you should also check out the videos

00:58:43 ◼   ► that he does in public.

00:58:44 ◼   ► He literally sort of sets up a keyboard

00:58:47 ◼   ► and a DJ interface and a monitor.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And he starts DJing in front of people in a bathrobe.

00:58:55 ◼   ► It's incredible, yeah.

00:58:57 ◼   ► Great energy, great vibe, yeah.

00:58:59 ◼   ► - Okay, I'll have a link to-

00:59:02 ◼   ► - Yes, thank you, BG.

00:59:03 ◼   ► People calling him Loop Daddy, yes.

00:59:05 ◼   ► - Okay, I was on a subreddit called r/loopdaddy.

00:59:08 ◼   ► I was like, I don't want to know what this is about.

00:59:11 ◼   ► - Loop Daddy, and he has Loop Daddy merch,

00:59:13 ◼   ► I think that you can buy.

00:59:15 ◼   ► - Okay, Loop Daddy.

00:59:17 ◼   ► I mean, I can't judge.

00:59:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, you're the Mac Daddy, he's the Loop Daddy.

00:59:21 ◼   ► And you're all daddies, so.

00:59:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'll put his YouTube channel

00:59:26 ◼   ► in the show notes for people to check out.

00:59:28 ◼   ► So lots of announcements, we're not gonna hit them all.

00:59:32 ◼   ► One though that jumped out at me early on was Gemini 1.5

00:59:37 ◼   ► is basically gonna be appearing in a bunch of places

00:59:39 ◼   ► like Google Docs, Sheets, Drive, Gmail.

00:59:42 ◼   ► It's all for paid Gemini subscribers.

00:59:45 ◼   ► But this has been Microsoft's move, right?

00:59:47 ◼   ► With Copilot.

00:59:48 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah.

00:59:49 ◼   ► - It's all throughout their productivity software.

00:59:52 ◼   ► And Google is now doing that with Gemini.

00:59:55 ◼   ► Of course, Copilot is built on OpenAI.

00:59:58 ◼   ► Gemini from Google built on their own technology.

01:00:02 ◼   ► This is all very confusing since Microsoft

01:00:03 ◼   ► doesn't own the technology powering their stuff.

01:00:07 ◼   ► But Gemini 1.5 is gonna be showing up in more places for you

01:00:11 ◼   ► if you're a paid subscriber,

01:00:12 ◼   ► including Chrome on the desktop.

01:00:16 ◼   ► So these things are gonna continue to filter out

01:00:19 ◼   ► and do all the things that these things do, right?

01:00:21 ◼   ► Like help you write emails and summarize meeting notes

01:00:24 ◼   ► and make connections across documents.

01:00:26 ◼   ► Like that sort of classic workspace stuff.

01:00:29 ◼   ► Google is now catching up there.

01:00:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, right?

01:00:32 ◼   ► Because especially when it comes to the business

01:00:34 ◼   ► and enterprise offerings,

01:00:36 ◼   ► Google and Microsoft are more similar than not.

01:00:40 ◼   ► They both offer a suite of productivity tools

01:00:44 ◼   ► and email and calendar and file storage.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And Microsoft obviously pioneered this idea of like,

01:00:51 ◼   ► let's put AI into all of these tools

01:00:53 ◼   ► and now Google is gonna follow.

01:00:54 ◼   ► And arguably they have the big advantage of having Gmail

01:00:59 ◼   ► and Gemini built into Gmail,

01:01:03 ◼   ► which is potentially a huge,

01:01:06 ◼   ► I don't know how many hundreds of millions of users

01:01:10 ◼   ► Gmail has or like does it even have a billion users?

01:01:13 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:01:15 ◼   ► But having AI built into Gmail is potentially

01:01:17 ◼   ► like Google's greatest advantage

01:01:20 ◼   ► in terms of being a useful tool,

01:01:23 ◼   ► but also being a scary tool in terms of like extracting data

01:01:27 ◼   ► from people's Gmail.

01:01:29 ◼   ► So, but yeah, that's a big thing that they have

01:01:33 ◼   ► that Microsoft does not.

01:01:34 ◼   ► - One thing that I saw that I really,

01:01:37 ◼   ► honestly I really want and now I want Apple to do it

01:01:39 ◼   ► is you can now ask Gemini about things

01:01:42 ◼   ► in your Google Photos library.

01:01:44 ◼   ► So the demo was like, what's my license plate number?

01:01:47 ◼   ► And it searched through the library,

01:01:52 ◼   ► found a picture of license plates, gave it the numbers,

01:01:54 ◼   ► but then showed the picture so the person could double check

01:01:56 ◼   ► that it didn't misread it.

01:01:58 ◼   ► I mean, I know my license plate number,

01:02:01 ◼   ► mine's a custom plate, which is four characters on it,

01:02:05 ◼   ► so it's easy to remember.

01:02:06 ◼   ► But like most people don't know

01:02:07 ◼   ► their license plate number, I don't think.

01:02:09 ◼   ► And that's just a single example.

01:02:13 ◼   ► And I mean, there's search in photos, right?

01:02:15 ◼   ► Like just today I needed some photos

01:02:16 ◼   ► from the last podcast-a-thon,

01:02:18 ◼   ► so I searched September 2023, St. Jude,

01:02:21 ◼   ► but it gave me 400 results.

01:02:22 ◼   ► And I was looking for like five pictures,

01:02:24 ◼   ► like, well, what if I could keep narrowing it down

01:02:26 ◼   ► and at some point Apple's work in this area

01:02:29 ◼   ► just doesn't kind of live up to what it could be?

01:02:33 ◼   ► So I do hope this is something that we can do

01:02:35 ◼   ► in our own photo libraries if you're using iCloud Photos.

01:02:38 ◼   ► Again, Apple would do this where it's all on device,

01:02:41 ◼   ► which means it'd be like building these indexes

01:02:44 ◼   ► on all of your devices, and that would be kind of weird.

01:02:46 ◼   ► We've seen that over the years play out in different ways.

01:02:50 ◼   ► But there's a lot of information in our photo libraries,

01:02:53 ◼   ► and being able to find something quickly

01:02:54 ◼   ► would be pretty cool.

01:02:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, especially if you can do so with natural language.

01:02:59 ◼   ► Like imagine like doing, for example,

01:03:03 ◼   ► hey, show me a pretty common one.

01:03:08 ◼   ► Like show me what I was wearing

01:03:10 ◼   ► the last time I went out for dinner with Steven.

01:03:14 ◼   ► Like because maybe we're going out again

01:03:15 ◼   ► and I don't want to dress up the same.

01:03:17 ◼   ► - Yeah. - You know?

01:03:18 ◼   ► Like something simple like that,

01:03:19 ◼   ► it sounds simple in your brain.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Like, hey, what was I wearing the last time

01:03:23 ◼   ► I went for dinner with Steven?

01:03:24 ◼   ► But like explain that to a computer.

01:03:26 ◼   ► Like there are so many different clues to understand.

01:03:30 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I am excited about that idea.

01:03:33 ◼   ► - They're also doing some open AI stuff

01:03:37 ◼   ► in terms of the multimodal assistant.

01:03:39 ◼   ► So there's Project Astra, which they said,

01:03:44 ◼   ► there's this great piece on the verge by David Pierce

01:03:47 ◼   ► that we'll link to,

01:03:49 ◼   ► talking to several people at Google

01:03:51 ◼   ► who have worked on this.

01:03:53 ◼   ► And it is that multimodal AI assistant.

01:03:55 ◼   ► So we can see through the cameras on your phone

01:03:58 ◼   ► and it can hear you.

01:03:59 ◼   ► And it is much more like what open AI pitched

01:04:04 ◼   ► the day before than what Google Assistant

01:04:06 ◼   ► and Siri can do now.

01:04:08 ◼   ► I think it's clear that something like this

01:04:11 ◼   ► will power Google Assistant in the future.

01:04:14 ◼   ► Right now it seems to be kind of

01:04:16 ◼   ► like to the side of Google Assistant

01:04:18 ◼   ► and like it's kind of a new thing.

01:04:20 ◼   ► But once all of this is mainstream,

01:04:23 ◼   ► I think this is just how these virtual assistants will work.

01:04:26 ◼   ► And now two of the three companies,

01:04:29 ◼   ► assuming Apple is the third, I guess,

01:04:32 ◼   ► have now shown this to be the case.

01:04:34 ◼   ► Like, yeah, this is how these things should

01:04:36 ◼   ► and will work in the future.

01:04:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I have to believe that this is also

01:04:42 ◼   ► what Apple is gonna be working on, right?

01:04:44 ◼   ► Like this idea of multimodal assistants

01:04:48 ◼   ► that are not just chatbots,

01:04:50 ◼   ► that are not just like prompts,

01:04:53 ◼   ► but accept a variety of methods.

01:04:57 ◼   ► That seems to be something that is right up Apple's belly,

01:05:00 ◼   ► I think, of like, we want,

01:05:03 ◼   ► if it's gonna be Siri,

01:05:05 ◼   ► we want Siri to be useful everywhere.

01:05:08 ◼   ► And yeah, we'll see.

01:05:10 ◼   ► They also shut off like this new model, Veo.

01:05:14 ◼   ► Veo, how do you wanna pronounce it?

01:05:16 ◼   ► Veo? - Veo?

01:05:18 ◼   ► Now that you've said it both ways, I don't know.

01:05:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's a model for producing video,

01:05:23 ◼   ► basically like Google's answer to Sora by OpenAI.

01:05:26 ◼   ► The Google version can produce 1080p content

01:05:31 ◼   ► based on prompts that,

01:05:33 ◼   ► like based on text image and video prompts.

01:05:37 ◼   ► Now, I gotta wonder,

01:05:39 ◼   ► because everybody's been asking OpenAI,

01:05:41 ◼   ► hey, is Sora being trained on YouTube?

01:05:44 ◼   ► I have to imagine that Google's model

01:05:48 ◼   ► has been trained on YouTube footage.

01:05:51 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:05:53 ◼   ► - So yeah, I think this is one worth keeping an eye on,

01:05:57 ◼   ► because it's from the company that owns YouTube,

01:05:59 ◼   ► and they can do whatever they want with that footage.

01:06:02 ◼   ► And if they wanna use it to train AI,

01:06:05 ◼   ► that could be interesting.

01:06:07 ◼   ► And also quite scary.

01:06:09 ◼   ► I should say that most of these things,

01:06:12 ◼   ► they are, like my opinion on these AI features,

01:06:17 ◼   ► they are equally impressive,

01:06:22 ◼   ► because I mean, let's face it,

01:06:23 ◼   ► from a computer science perspective, they are impressive.

01:06:27 ◼   ► They're remarkable, but they're also very scary,

01:06:30 ◼   ► especially for creative professionals.

01:06:34 ◼   ► Like I found OpenAI's demo

01:06:39 ◼   ► for tutoring a student with an iPad

01:06:43 ◼   ► and Child DPT running on a tablet,

01:06:45 ◼   ► I found it terrifying if you're a teacher,

01:06:49 ◼   ► if you're anybody in the education field,

01:06:53 ◼   ► like the thought of, well, I'm just a person.

01:06:56 ◼   ► How can I even compete with an AI

01:07:01 ◼   ► that has access to the world's information in all,

01:07:05 ◼   ► in literally all the languages

01:07:07 ◼   ► that are spoken on planet earth?

01:07:09 ◼   ► And I'm just a teacher.

01:07:11 ◼   ► Like I find most of these tools

01:07:14 ◼   ► technologically fascinating and remarkable,

01:07:18 ◼   ► and also scary, just scary and dangerous

01:07:22 ◼   ► for the human race.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Yeah, like people in creative fields,

01:07:29 ◼   ► people in the medical field,

01:07:32 ◼   ► I know some folks who have been asking

01:07:35 ◼   ► Child DPT for medical advice,

01:07:36 ◼   ► people in educational fields,

01:07:40 ◼   ► yeah, people do it, people do it.

01:07:42 ◼   ► You give people this kind of tool.

01:07:44 ◼   ► I mean, it used to be that people would look up

01:07:46 ◼   ► if they had cancer on Google and Wikipedia and WebMD,

01:07:50 ◼   ► and now they're gonna do that with Child DPT.

01:07:53 ◼   ► You give people a search tool and they use it.

01:07:59 ◼   ► It's just what they do, they use it.

01:08:01 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I think it's scary,

01:08:04 ◼   ► which is why I'm much more okay with the idea

01:08:07 ◼   ► of using AI to access, process, rediscover your data,

01:08:12 ◼   ► and I am personally much less okay with generative AI

01:08:25 ◼   ► as a way to replace existing human jobs.

01:08:30 ◼   ► I find the idea of using AI to create

01:08:38 ◼   ► an actual second brain, for example,

01:08:42 ◼   ► or a super powerful search tool

01:08:45 ◼   ► that searches through my computer for my stuff.

01:08:47 ◼   ► That technology is incredible,

01:08:52 ◼   ► but when we get to, "Hey, what about creating a movie

01:08:56 ◼   ► "with a text prompt?"

01:08:58 ◼   ► That's scary, I don't know.

01:09:00 ◼   ► - I think that line is,

01:09:03 ◼   ► I think where a lot of people kind of feel things change.

01:09:06 ◼   ► - Or, for example, another cool use case in Android,

01:09:13 ◼   ► they shut off using AI to listen in on spam calls

01:09:17 ◼   ► or scams on the phone.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Yes, that is the perfect use for a robot.

01:09:23 ◼   ► Put it to work, let it handle the spam calls coming in.

01:09:28 ◼   ► I would love to have something like this on my phone.

01:09:33 ◼   ► That is a perfect, free the human

01:09:37 ◼   ► from the job of answering the spam call, yes.

01:09:40 ◼   ► There is a use of AI that is okay with me,

01:09:43 ◼   ► and it's also why, with all these announcements

01:09:47 ◼   ► from OpenAI and Google, I am intrigued, to say the least,

01:09:51 ◼   ► in terms of how Apple is going to navigate these waters

01:09:55 ◼   ► next month.

01:09:56 ◼   ► How do they sidestep the potential issue of,

01:10:00 ◼   ► as we've seen with the crash ad,

01:10:02 ◼   ► like your generative AI is destroying creative professionals

01:10:07 ◼   ► or, at the very least, it poses a serious harm

01:10:11 ◼   ► to creative professionals.

01:10:12 ◼   ► I think it's gonna be interesting to see

01:10:14 ◼   ► how Apple is going to reconcile Wall Street's need

01:10:19 ◼   ► for generative AI versus people's feelings about it.

01:10:24 ◼   ► Yeah, Jason and I spoke about that.

01:10:26 ◼   ► It feels very complicated for Apple to get that right.

01:10:29 ◼   ► Jason had a good point.

01:10:30 ◼   ► It's like, well, Apple now has a month

01:10:32 ◼   ► to figure it out after the ad controversy,

01:10:36 ◼   ► and I think that's accurate.

01:10:38 ◼   ► They've gotten the appetizer a month in advance.

01:10:43 ◼   ► No.

01:10:44 ◼   ► Aipatizer.

01:10:46 ◼   ► Aipapat.

01:10:47 ◼   ► I'm sorry, listeners, I didn't mean for Steven to do that,

01:10:51 ◼   ► but he is sentient on his own,

01:10:55 ◼   ► so he can do these things. That's right.

01:10:56 ◼   ► I'm a large language model, paradigm dad jokes.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:11:01 ◼   ► We need to talk about Google AI and search,

01:11:04 ◼   ► and so they are adding a lot more AI-generated results

01:11:08 ◼   ► to the search page, which, of course,

01:11:11 ◼   ► pushes regular web search to links

01:11:14 ◼   ► to websites like mine and yours further down the page.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Goodbye.

01:11:19 ◼   ► Yeah, a lot of publishers, I think,

01:11:21 ◼   ► rightfully are worried about this.

01:11:23 ◼   ► Don't worry, though, Google's new head of search

01:11:27 ◼   ► says that it's fine.

01:11:29 ◼   ► Liz Reed, and I quote, says, "Young users in particular

01:11:32 ◼   ► are always looking for a human perspective on their query,"

01:11:36 ◼   ► and says it's still Google's job to give that to them.

01:11:39 ◼   ► Ah, yes, the youth saving the blood.

01:11:40 ◼   ► The youth, they'll save us.

01:11:42 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:11:42 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:11:44 ◼   ► There's also a filter.

01:11:46 ◼   ► You can just hit web,

01:11:47 ◼   ► and it shows you just the links like before,

01:11:50 ◼   ► but you can't fully turn off the AI stuff.

01:11:53 ◼   ► I mean, this is gonna further complicate

01:11:55 ◼   ► Google's relationship with internet publishers.

01:11:58 ◼   ► I don't think, there was some back and forth on,

01:12:01 ◼   ► I think, Threads earlier, some people, like,

01:12:04 ◼   ► well, people are just gonna turn off crawling to Google.

01:12:06 ◼   ► It's like, no, you can't.

01:12:07 ◼   ► Like, you just can't do that,

01:12:11 ◼   ► 'cause then you're gonna starve as a web publisher,

01:12:14 ◼   ► but this does complicate things.

01:12:16 ◼   ► There's already been so much mess around,

01:12:21 ◼   ► even before it was, air quotes, AI,

01:12:25 ◼   ► just like when you would search for something on Google,

01:12:26 ◼   ► and it would pull an answer from a website

01:12:28 ◼   ► onto the search result for you, like in a box, right?

01:12:31 ◼   ► Lots of people called Fowl.

01:12:33 ◼   ► Many more people call Fowl over this,

01:12:36 ◼   ► and I think for me, that's the biggest thing out of IO.

01:12:41 ◼   ► Like, the rest of the stuff is like interesting/scary.

01:12:45 ◼   ► Some of it won't exist,

01:12:47 ◼   ► but if they truly change, like, Google search

01:12:50 ◼   ► in a way that it looks like they're going to,

01:12:54 ◼   ► that could be a fundamental change

01:12:56 ◼   ► in a lot of how the internet works,

01:12:59 ◼   ► and I just don't know if we're ready for that.

01:13:01 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:13:04 ◼   ► - It's a scary time to run a website as a business

01:13:09 ◼   ► and to depend on Google,

01:13:12 ◼   ► which is why I think over the past few years,

01:13:16 ◼   ► you and I and Rayleigh, Max Stories, and Jason,

01:13:21 ◼   ► Ben Thompson, like, it's the reason why

01:13:25 ◼   ► we have explored other avenues for revenue

01:13:29 ◼   ► and to sort of stop playing that game altogether

01:13:34 ◼   ► of running a business,

01:13:38 ◼   ► and the only source of support that you get

01:13:43 ◼   ► is the people that find you via Google search,

01:13:46 ◼   ► and Google has shown time and time again

01:13:48 ◼   ► that they just don't care.

01:13:51 ◼   ► It's not like they have an opinion,

01:13:56 ◼   ► because if you want to have an opinion,

01:13:59 ◼   ► you need to care in the first place.

01:14:02 ◼   ► They literally don't care.

01:14:04 ◼   ► For them, it's not people with websites.

01:14:07 ◼   ► It's content feeding the algorithm.

01:14:12 ◼   ► They absolutely don't care.

01:14:14 ◼   ► I've seen, I've been having these conversations

01:14:18 ◼   ► over the past couple, over the past year, actually,

01:14:21 ◼   ► with two different friends who started websites

01:14:26 ◼   ► about portable gaming,

01:14:32 ◼   ► and it's scary out there, with Google basically destroying,

01:14:37 ◼   ► with their changes to search,

01:14:40 ◼   ► the amount of people that find them,

01:14:42 ◼   ► and it's why I'm seeing these new, smaller publications

01:14:47 ◼   ► immediately explore tools like memberships or newsletters

01:14:54 ◼   ► or just to sort of expand beyond the reach of Google search,

01:15:01 ◼   ► and so it's, and the worst thing is,

01:15:05 ◼   ► this is happening no matter what.

01:15:07 ◼   ► Like, it's a train that you cannot stop,

01:15:11 ◼   ► so I don't have anything else to say except that

01:15:17 ◼   ► if anybody's gonna be affected by this,

01:15:19 ◼   ► the best time to start exploring other

01:15:23 ◼   ► business opportunities beyond Google search was yesterday,

01:15:28 ◼   ► and the next best time is right now, yeah.

01:15:31 ◼   ► - Agreed. - Yeah.

01:15:32 ◼   ► I mean, I don't wanna end on a down note

01:15:36 ◼   ► because I think it's been a pretty fun episode.

01:15:39 ◼   ► I always have these fun episodes with you

01:15:40 ◼   ► when Mike is not around.

01:15:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, he holds us back.

01:15:43 ◼   ► - I'm not sure he's gonna like to hear that, you know?

01:15:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe it's the hype.

01:15:50 ◼   ► We're just so tall and big without him.

01:15:52 ◼   ► - We're just so tall now.

01:15:53 ◼   ► It's that, it's that.

01:15:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can see for miles up here.

01:15:56 ◼   ► It's great.

01:15:57 ◼   ► - I'm getting kind of uncomfortable.

01:15:58 ◼   ► You've been sitting on my shoulders

01:15:59 ◼   ► for like an hour and 25 minutes.

01:16:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:16:04 ◼   ► My neck is starting to feel the pressure.

01:16:06 ◼   ► - Okay, well, yeah, you gotta,

01:16:08 ◼   ► the Vision Pro, you know, is training.

01:16:10 ◼   ► - Here's, just dismount, Steven, please.

01:16:12 ◼   ► But no, yeah, I mean, it's scary,

01:16:17 ◼   ► and yeah, please, if you have a website,

01:16:21 ◼   ► try others, try new things would be my advice.

01:16:26 ◼   ► Try new things and try build a relationship

01:16:29 ◼   ► with your readers or your listeners.

01:16:31 ◼   ► Like, do not depend on Google search

01:16:33 ◼   ► because Google doesn't care about you

01:16:36 ◼   ► and never will, never have and never will.

01:16:38 ◼   ► So, yeah.

01:16:39 ◼   ► - So, that's the show.

01:16:43 ◼   ► - That's the show.

01:16:44 ◼   ► - We've done the show.

01:16:46 ◼   ► We are now in keynote season.

01:16:48 ◼   ► OpenAI and Google are done.

01:16:51 ◼   ► WBC is just a few weeks away.

01:16:52 ◼   ► We'll be making our picks in just a couple of weeks,

01:16:54 ◼   ► which is hard to believe.

01:16:56 ◼   ► If you wanna find links to stuff we spoke about,

01:17:00 ◼   ► so you can point your AI LLM at them

01:17:03 ◼   ► to summarize them for you,

01:17:05 ◼   ► they are in your podcast player

01:17:06 ◼   ► and on the web at relay.fm/connected/502.

01:17:11 ◼   ► There's also a feedback form there.

01:17:12 ◼   ► You can send us feedback or follow up via the form,

01:17:16 ◼   ► and you can also join and get Connected Pro,

01:17:18 ◼   ► which is the longer ad-free version of the show

01:17:20 ◼   ► that we do each and every week.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Connected Pro members also get access

01:17:25 ◼   ► to the Relay Members Discord,

01:17:27 ◼   ► a couple of Relay Members Only podcasts,

01:17:30 ◼   ► including our annual specials that we do every year.

01:17:33 ◼   ► We're gonna be recording the Connected one very soon.

01:17:34 ◼   ► We'll talk more about that in the near future,

01:17:36 ◼   ► but lots of good stuff happening in membership land,

01:17:39 ◼   ► so go check that out.

01:17:40 ◼   ► Mike's not here,

01:17:42 ◼   ► but if you want to let him know that you missed him--

01:17:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, what should people do?

01:17:48 ◼   ► - What should people do?

01:17:51 ◼   ► I think--

01:17:52 ◼   ► - It's gotta be something about AI.

01:17:54 ◼   ► - I think send Mike a picture or a GIF

01:17:58 ◼   ► of your favorite robot.

01:17:59 ◼   ► - Yes, yes.

01:18:02 ◼   ► - You can do that on Mastodon or Threads.

01:18:03 ◼   ► He's iMike, both places.

01:18:05 ◼   ► You can find him.

01:18:06 ◼   ► - A picture or GIF of your favorite robot?

01:18:10 ◼   ► - Favorite robot.

01:18:12 ◼   ► - Favorite robot, all right.

01:18:13 ◼   ► - You can follow Federico online as well.

01:18:17 ◼   ► You don't have to send him favorite robots,

01:18:20 ◼   ► but actually, please don't do that.

01:18:22 ◼   ► Just do that to Mike.

01:18:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, just click links on my website.

01:18:26 ◼   ► Don't make me happy.

01:18:26 ◼   ► - Yes, yes, go check out MacStories.

01:18:28 ◼   ► There'll be an iPad Pro review there, I guess,

01:18:31 ◼   ► at some point, and MacPad stuff,

01:18:36 ◼   ► and of course, you guys will be doing lots of coverage

01:18:39 ◼   ► as W3C kicks off here in just a few weeks.

01:18:42 ◼   ► You can follow Federico on social media as Vitici,

01:18:44 ◼   ► V-I-T-I-C-C-I.

01:18:47 ◼   ► He is on Mastodon and Threads.

01:18:49 ◼   ► You can find my writing at 512pixels.net.

01:18:52 ◼   ► Just go ahead and make that your homepage,

01:18:54 ◼   ► so you don't have to let Google wait

01:18:58 ◼   ► and slowly destroy all web traffic.

01:19:00 ◼   ► You can follow me on social media.

01:19:02 ◼   ► I'm ismh@eworld.social on Mastodon,

01:19:05 ◼   ► and ismh86 on Threads.

01:19:08 ◼   ► Maybe one day those will be the same thing.

01:19:11 ◼   ► I'd like to thank our sponsors this week

01:19:12 ◼   ► for making the show possible, Jam, Squarespace, and Tailscale.

01:19:16 ◼   ► Until next week, Federico, say goodbye.

01:19:19 ◼   ► - Arrivederci.

01:19:20 ◼   ► - Bye, y'all.