The Talk Show

401: ‘Chockdingus’, With Craig Hockenberry


00:00:00   Have you been touching my dingus a lot?

00:00:06   Craig, you're making me laugh already, but I have several hardware products to review

00:00:17   right here on this episode of the talk show.

00:00:19   And I would love to talk about them with you.

00:00:22   Good.

00:00:24   Some of them I thought was called a chalkboard, but it is I have been in, I have been informed

00:00:32   by you that it is in fact is the chalk dingus.

00:00:37   The chalk dingus.

00:00:38   It's funny when you say it, when you type it out.

00:00:45   I will say this is one of the nicest gifts anybody has ever sent to me.

00:00:50   And I thank you, we can joke about it, but I thank you sincerely.

00:00:54   It has made, as you said, as the owner of a chalk dingus yourself, it is a measurable

00:01:00   improvement to your daily life.

00:01:02   And I appreciate it.

00:01:04   Can you tell people what it is?

00:01:06   Yeah, it was Jason Snell who got me started down this a while back.

00:01:12   And you basically take a Mac keyboard with the touch ID in it and rip it apart, pull

00:01:19   out the touch ID, the battery, the little circuit board, and you put it in a 3D printed

00:01:28   case.

00:01:29   And that allows you to use the chalk dingus with a mechanical keyboard.

00:01:35   The reason I knew you would love it is because I know your affinity for the Apple X and the

00:01:40   keyboard too.

00:01:41   You are inseparable with that thing.

00:01:43   And I have a mechanical keyboard too.

00:01:45   I mean that was my main thing, right?

00:01:48   I love the keyboards that they put on the laptops.

00:01:51   But when it comes to my workhorse, I want a big, fat, noisy keyboard, which Apple will

00:01:58   never make.

00:01:59   No, not again.

00:02:00   And then once you use the touch ID on the laptops, you realize, okay, I need this.

00:02:06   So that's what started me down the path of deconstructing keyboards and making these

00:02:14   things.

00:02:15   And I forget what happened then.

00:02:16   Did you post on social media that you had one?

00:02:19   Did you post just in our group Slack?

00:02:21   Yeah, it was.

00:02:22   I posted it out a couple of times on Macedon.

00:02:27   And yeah, it was in the Ranchero Slack channel where you said, "Oh, I would love one of these

00:02:34   things, but I could never make one."

00:02:35   And it's like, "Oh, I can solve that."

00:02:39   Yeah, my take, which I still stand behind, even now that I love it, is I really want

00:02:46   one, but I don't want one enough to make one.

00:02:50   Because my hobbyist skills are entirely software-based.

00:02:55   I can write little programs and scripts.

00:02:58   I don't believe I've ever successfully soldered anything in my life.

00:03:03   And I realized that from talking to people who do it, that it's not particularly difficult,

00:03:07   but I've just never-

00:03:08   Well, that's how I got started.

00:03:09   When I was 16, I saw something in Popular Electronics, which is I make this little,

00:03:13   I think it was called Chem One or something like that.

00:03:17   And I just got started down making circuits with TTL chips and that kind of stuff.

00:03:23   And I actually went, when I started university, I thought I wanted to do electrical engineering.

00:03:29   Took a thermodynamics class and I was like, "Oh, this is bullshit."

00:03:32   I mean, it's important stuff, but for my mind, it was not something that I wanted to do.

00:03:38   Then I had done some classes with computer science and it was like that's where I wanted

00:03:44   to be.

00:03:45   Yeah, that's more or less what happened to me.

00:03:47   Before my freshman year, I was torn between computer engineering, which is effectively

00:03:52   computer hardware and computer science, which is effect, you know, do I want to do hardware

00:03:56   or software?

00:03:57   And I was told, and I believe that it was actually good advice at Drexel, that, you

00:04:03   know, it's not uncommon for incoming freshmen to be torn between those two specific majors.

00:04:08   And it's better to start in engineering and transfer to computer science than vice versa

00:04:16   because something, something, there's like a whole bunch of freshmen core engineering

00:04:21   things.

00:04:23   And if you transfer in your second year, if you start computer science and switch to engineering,

00:04:30   you've got to pick up all these freshmen things and you won't be in any of the, you'll be

00:04:33   with kids who are a year younger, none of your friends, et cetera.

00:04:37   Whereas the other way, the prerequisites for computer science were sort of like, yeah,

00:04:41   you need an English, you need a math.

00:04:43   So you'd already have them going the other way.

00:04:45   So anyway, I did the same thing, had the same experience freshman year where I learned just

00:04:49   enough electrical engineering.

00:04:51   Well, the skills as a teenager, soldering and doing it.

00:04:58   My problem now actually is that I don't have the motor skills and eyesight of a 16 year

00:05:02   old.

00:05:03   You know what though?

00:05:04   And the parts have gotten a lot smaller.

00:05:08   You know, we could probably do the whole show, you know, about the hardware versus software.

00:05:12   And I feel like for everybody, most lay people, all of this stuff, all of these devices are

00:05:18   all exemplars of the Arthur C. Clarke adage that any sufficiently advanced technology

00:05:26   is indistinguishable from magic.

00:05:28   And we're definitely living in that world and to some degree or another, everybody in

00:05:33   our racket has our layers where we Oh, I actually know something about x and then it doesn't

00:05:39   seem so magic.

00:05:40   But for me, a lot of hardware really does just seem like magic.

00:05:45   But anyway, it's a wonderful gift.

00:05:48   And it really is part of my daily life now.

00:05:50   So what I was doing, so I my, my main Mac is a m one MacBook Pro maxed out.

00:06:00   So I got the 64 gigs of RAM, whatever else.

00:06:03   I think I maxed out the SSD a couple years ago, at my desk connected to a studio display,

00:06:09   and I leave the MacBook closed.

00:06:11   I don't like having I don't really I it's been a very long time since I've had multiple

00:06:15   displays.

00:06:16   And I just maybe if I actually set to studio displays up, I get addicted to it.

00:06:23   But it's never the thing that's always bothered me about it when I've tried it is that I don't

00:06:28   have one in the center.

00:06:29   I've got two on the sides and the center is the barrier between the two and I kind of

00:06:34   just want to put stuff in the middle.

00:06:37   But I definitely don't like mismatched displays.

00:06:40   I don't want you to hate my desktop.

00:06:42   Well, but I understand though, why some people do it like I do remember like years ago, like

00:06:48   when I worked at barebone software, and I was doing tech support, having one display

00:06:52   that was just sort of the tech support email in a shared Eudora imap folder was super helpful

00:06:57   is like I could do my work over here.

00:06:59   And this shared job of dealing with the tech support queue over here and it was a good

00:07:05   division of Oh, I can pivot my chair a little bit to do it put a different hat on temporarily

00:07:11   and keep an eye on it.

00:07:13   But what I've been doing with that, so I keep the lid closed, which means the display isn't

00:07:18   on but it also means that the touch ID button is not open.

00:07:22   And so for years, I guess is that I've sort of fallen into the habit of, I mean, talk

00:07:31   about other hobbies in addition to mechanical keyboards where money disappears quickly,

00:07:35   but I have a small watch collection.

00:07:39   But what I've tended to do for years is where my Apple Watch on workdays, if it's a Monday

00:07:43   to Friday, I wake up, I wear my Apple Watch and it's not for everybody says fitness is

00:07:49   the main thing people wear Apple Watch for.

00:07:51   I, I wear an Apple Watch for logging into my Mac and doing the fun little for anybody

00:08:00   out there who doesn't have this setup doesn't have an Apple Watch or never set it up on

00:08:05   their Mac.

00:08:06   It's super convenient.

00:08:07   You go to the security security settings panel on your Mac.

00:08:10   And if your Mac is signed into iCloud and your Apple Watch is signed into the same iCloud

00:08:15   account, your watch or if you have multiple watches, they'll show up and you can they

00:08:20   off by default and you could say use this Apple Watch to log into your Mac.

00:08:25   And then when you're within some secure perimeter, it seems like a couple feet, right?

00:08:31   If you're within a couple of watches within a couple feet, it will just log you in.

00:08:37   And I think there's like a 72 hour timeout or something like that.

00:08:42   My second Mac, the one I'm talking to you on right now in the basement, which I only

00:08:46   use for podcasting.

00:08:47   So at most, maybe three times a week, I do dithering.

00:08:50   I do this show.

00:08:52   And so oftentimes I'll go, it doesn't work anymore because you have to type your password

00:08:56   after 72 hours.

00:08:57   Big deal.

00:08:58   But I don't like

00:08:59   I use the same thing for a while.

00:09:01   And yeah, get to why you don't like it.

00:09:03   I'm probably gonna nod my head and

00:09:05   Well, I don't like it because I can I can wake up in the morning and think it's a workday.

00:09:10   I'll wear my Apple Watch for the convenience of this.

00:09:13   But then what if I'm not?

00:09:14   What if it's a Saturday or what if I just happened to go to bed wearing a different

00:09:19   watch, and I didn't really think to switch and then I sit down at my desk and nothing

00:09:23   happens automatically.

00:09:24   And

00:09:25   sometimes there's a little bit of lag.

00:09:28   Yeah.

00:09:29   Is it going to catch this time and it's just long enough for you to sit there and go?

00:09:33   Yeah, no, it didn't work.

00:09:36   Yep, yep.

00:09:37   Or something like, oh, I just took the Apple Watch off the charger, put it on my

00:09:44   wrist and I've got all it's I think we'd need a complex diagram but it's you you can

00:09:50   have your watch unlock your phone, you can have your phone unlock your watch, you can

00:09:54   have your watch unlock your Mac.

00:09:59   I think that the the watch being able to unlock your phone was something Apple added during

00:10:06   the COVID thing because people were wearing masks, which was messing up face ID.

00:10:12   And so before they got face ID working with masks, which they did eventually get and it's

00:10:18   still obviously they're not going to take it out now that they have it working.

00:10:21   They did get Oh, you could unlock your watch first and then your phone will will unlock

00:10:26   but you know what nothing nothing beats is just having a simple little button on the

00:10:30   top of my keyboard.

00:10:31   The physicality of it is great.

00:10:33   It really is just so what you do good.

00:10:36   Yeah, literally feels good.

00:10:38   You made a nice little 3d printed plastic package for it.

00:10:42   It's a little it is bigger than it would be if it were a standalone product.

00:10:46   I would say it's sort of looks like it's like the shape of a cigar, maybe

00:10:50   a lot of the volume is for the battery which they made thin and wide, which is great for

00:10:58   a keyboard but you know, if Apple was going to make one of these for sale, they could

00:11:04   make it a lot smaller, a lot more svelte.

00:11:07   Yeah.

00:11:08   Hey, wouldn't it be nice if they can you see them doing that?

00:11:11   No, I can't see them doing it because and I can't quite explain why.

00:11:19   Because it's not usually we could play the game of would Apple do x and either the answer

00:11:25   is going to be instantaneously probably no and then other times Oh, yeah, I think they

00:11:30   would definitely do that.

00:11:31   I think the maybes are rare Apple I feel like you and I could sit here and do it but that's

00:11:36   one that I would say is probably not but it's hard for me to explain why it's I feel like

00:11:42   they just don't want to explain to people why you might want to need it.

00:11:47   Keyboard geekery is is kind of a niche thing.

00:11:50   Right?

00:11:51   It's it's not you don't go to the Apple Store to in fact, does the Apple Store even sell

00:11:55   keyboards?

00:11:56   Well, they sell the magic keyboards.

00:11:57   Or other than Apple's keyboards.

00:11:59   Oh, but they are and they and they might sell like the Logitech ones for the iPads.

00:12:04   I don't know if they sell Yeah, like, yeah, Apple keyboards.

00:12:08   Yeah, excuse me, Mac keyboards, they might sell like a Logitech standalone keyboard.

00:12:13   That's like a Bluetooth.

00:12:14   They don't have a lot and they don't.

00:12:15   They're not in the whole mechanical rack.

00:12:17   It's not a it's not a focus for them.

00:12:19   So I feel like that's it.

00:12:22   And this is where we as people who voluntarily put our digital lives in the Apple ecosystem,

00:12:32   where we have to pay the price, which is that you you benefit from so much integration across

00:12:38   Apple's platforms, especially as we head to WWDC next month, we can briefly do like a

00:12:45   hey state of the company how they do and I think the cross integration across their platforms

00:12:51   is better than ever.

00:12:52   And it's one of those I and I think people notice when it doesn't work.

00:12:58   And then when it works, you just sort of take it for granted, like for example, the continuity

00:13:04   feature of when you copy something on one device, you can paste it on another.

00:13:10   It's always ever since it debuted in like 2017 or so it's like a six or seven year old feature.

00:13:15   It's always been useful and always been clever and wow, that's really fun.

00:13:20   But it's gotten so much better in terms of never failing for me, right?

00:13:25   It's like 99.

00:13:26   And you don't notice it now, right?

00:13:29   It's just there.

00:13:30   I just expect when I've copied something anywhere that I can paste it on another one and it's

00:13:36   and I'll get to this.

00:13:37   It's one of the reasons for that the chalk dingus is so important to me is because I've

00:13:43   gone all in on iCloud keychain, right?

00:13:46   And that little piece of hardware is really tightly integrated with the keychain and pass

00:13:51   keys and passwords and all of the stuff that I do on all my devices, right?

00:13:58   Yeah.

00:13:59   And you're confirming works.

00:14:01   You're confirming purchases, you're confirming Apple Pay purchases on the web.

00:14:05   It comes up all the time.

00:14:08   And my login password that I actually have to type on the keyboard comes off my fingers

00:14:15   pretty easily from muscle memory.

00:14:21   But it's also complex enough that I sometimes type it wrong and it just really feels at

00:14:27   this point it really feels like a hassle when I have to type it.

00:14:29   Tim

00:14:38   iCloud password at some point during that whole sequence, right? There's just, there's no way

00:14:45   around it. They're stored on the device. So like I was saying, we're the downside of being in the

00:14:51   apple ecosystem is that we're at the mercy of the products apple makes. And if apple decides

00:14:55   they're not gonna make a standalone Touch ID button, you know, the cute little square that

00:15:01   you could put anywhere, then we don't get one or we get hobbyist products like the chalk dingus,

00:15:07   right? Which doesn't scale, right? You're not, I don't think you have plans.

00:15:13   **Matt Stauffer** I'm not making 10,000 of these things.

00:15:16   I'm not even making a hundred of them.

00:15:18   **Robert Wiblin** What I could see apple doing would be partnering with maybe Logitech and letting

00:15:25   Logitech make one or maybe like Elgato, the company that makes this stream deck.

00:15:30   **Matt Stauffer** WSAD, the one of the keyboard companies.

00:15:34   **Robert Wiblin** Well, like those little stream decks, you know, you've seen them. They're like

00:15:39   the little mini keyboards where you can set the pixels on top. I'm sure because you guys do icons

00:15:44   that there's been a lot of custom icon work that icon factory has done for people met wanting cute

00:15:50   little icons on their stream decks. I could say it would be really, I would buy one of those in

00:15:55   a heartbeat if it had a Touch ID sensor. Right. And I didn't realize this. I'd never really thought

00:16:02   it through. I guess if I would have even before I tried it, but I was surprised when I set it up,

00:16:08   you set it up just like a magic keyboard. You just connect the lightning cable from your Mac.

00:16:12   **Matt Stauffer** It thinks that there's keys there.

00:16:14   **Robert Wiblin** Yeah. It thinks it's a full magic keyboard. You connect it with the lightning

00:16:21   cable and it says, okay, now this keyboard is paired with this Mac. And once it's charged up,

00:16:27   you can disconnect the cable. And now you have a little standalone Bluetooth magic keyboard that

00:16:32   only has one key, the Touch ID sensor. And it's nice because it'll wake the Mac as the Mac is

00:16:39   sleeping. I just put my finger on it. The thing I was surprised about was that it already had my

00:16:45   fingerprints from the Touch ID sensor built into the MacBook Pro. My intuition when I was setting

00:16:52   up your kind gift was, oh, I'll have to do my two or three fingers again on this sensor. And that's

00:16:59   not true that your fingerprint scans are on the secure enclave on the device, not in the sensor.

00:17:08   And so I already had my right index and right thumb registered from the built-in Touch ID sensor

00:17:16   on the MacBook Pro keyboard and didn't need to set them up again on the new one. It just worked.

00:17:21   But the other thing is I can't set up, you can only set up three fingers. So if you want to,

00:17:27   let's say, have your left hand or something. Yeah. Like right hand for the built-in one,

00:17:34   because it's on the upper right of the keyboard, but maybe you're left-handed and you would like

00:17:39   to put your little chalk dingus on the left side. You've got to figure out how to allot your three

00:17:46   fingers. I don't know. I wonder why Apple… That actually, the fact that there's no real secure

00:17:54   information stored on that device makes me think that, yeah, maybe Apple would…

00:18:00   Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. …open that up.

00:18:02   Because they don't need to… They're not giving away any secrets.

00:18:05   They're not giving anybody else the responsibility for the secure enclave. They're not even giving

00:18:11   them a secure enclave, which I think, A, they wouldn't do for competitive reasons, and B,

00:18:18   they wouldn't do for marketing reasons that there's that part of the brand promise from Apple

00:18:24   is that Apple alone is single-handedly responsible for your secure enclave. I feel like they could

00:18:30   say… It's locked down for a good reason too, right?

00:18:33   Right. But third parties…

00:18:34   Imagine somebody got into that.

00:18:35   Third parties could offer a fingerprint sensor though. That would be cool.

00:18:39   Right. Exactly.

00:18:39   It would be nice if they'd let third-party keyboard makers do that.

00:18:43   And call it "touch ID compatible" or something like that.

00:18:46   Yeah, something.

00:18:47   It's an MFP ID instead of made for touch.

00:18:53   Well, anyway, I just want to thank you again. I'm thinking about you every single day. Every day,

00:19:03   I think, "Oh, thanks to my pal." Thanks to my pal, Craig. Hey, let me take a break right now

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00:22:06   I've got another device here to sort of do a quick casual review. I have what I'm actually not even

00:22:15   sure if it's a prototype, but last week, there was a company that sort of decloaked called Daylight

00:22:22   Computer Company, and they have a product called the Daylight DC-1. It is a—you saw this news,

00:22:28   right? It's an iPad-shaped tablet, 10.9 inches, that has not an E Ink display. I made that mistake

00:22:38   when I first wrote about it. They're calling it an E Paper display, which is different than E Ink.

00:22:43   It's 60 frames per second, but black and white or grayscale, perhaps, if you will, with an amber

00:22:52   backlighting, which they are advertising as the lack of blue light for backlighting being

00:23:00   good for your health or good for your sleep or something like that.

00:23:03   So, Om Malik, friend of the show, had a nice post about it, and clearly, it knows the founder of the

00:23:09   company. So, I reached out through Om, and next thing you know, the founder of the company sent

00:23:14   me one overnight, very, very kind of him for me to review. And so, I've been using it on and off

00:23:20   all week, and I have some thoughts. Pete Lien

00:23:49   But I have to say, for my eyes, looks retina, I'm guessing. My son's actually away at the shore

00:23:57   with friends. I kind of wish he were here to look at it, because he's sort of my 20-year-old son.

00:24:02   He's my retina test.

00:24:06   Pete Lien I need one of those.

00:24:07   Pete Lien I would say, though, in terms of, oh, is that putting you off only 191 ppi? I would say,

00:24:14   don't let that hold you off, you being anybody out there who's thinking about placing a pre-order,

00:24:20   for one. I know Kindles advertise themselves at 300 ppi. Looking at this next to my Kindle Oasis,

00:24:28   I don't think it looks higher resolution. So, that's not a reason not to buy it.

00:24:33   Pete Lien And the refresh is good. I mean,

00:24:35   you know, scrolling is not JPG.

00:24:38   Pete Lien It is amazing compared to E-ink, right? Because E-ink famously, the downside is that it is

00:24:46   all these low, these many years later, contrast is awesome. And the power on E-ink is fascinating,

00:24:54   because once the screen is powered, this is where the name ink comes from, it actually doesn't take

00:25:00   any more power to keep those pixels black and the ones that are white, white. Hence the fact that

00:25:06   E-readers like Kindles and Kobo's can have, even when they're powered down and asleep,

00:25:11   they show something on the screen, like the cover of the book you're reading. And that doesn't

00:25:16   actually consume any power once, it's almost like printing, right? It's once you've printed the page,

00:25:22   the printer isn't doing anything more. Once an E-ink screen has painted the screen,

00:25:27   until you refresh, that's it.

00:25:29   Pete Lien Physical change. There's a physical change in the, yeah.

00:25:32   David Tenenbaum This, it's E, I feel like the way the daylight is describing it is fair. It is

00:25:38   E-paper, E, it is E-ink like, it definitely, when you scroll, like on a webpage, it scrolls like a

00:25:46   tablet, not like a reader. Can I,

00:25:49   Pete Lien Is the screen itself reflective? Or I mean, does it have like a shiny surface or more?

00:25:54   David Tenenbaum No, it's a matte finish screen that I kind of like.

00:25:58   Pete Lien Definitely leaning into the paper aspect.

00:26:02   David Tenenbaum Right. It's a matte screen that I would say feels a lot like a Kindle

00:26:06   matte finish, maybe even a little bit more matte. I've left the backlight at its default setting.

00:26:14   And I probably in the next coming, as I test it more, should probably try turning it off completely

00:26:20   in some lighting, because I find that it's on all the time, even like in the middle of the day in a,

00:26:28   I'm not outside, but in a sunny room. It still is backlit orange. I don't mind orange.

00:26:35   Pete Lien So is the backlight not use a lot of power then?

00:26:39   David Tenenbaum I don't know. And it does have very good battery life from what I've seen so

00:26:43   far. I'm not even sure how to turn the backlight off. They say to go up there to the control center,

00:26:48   but well, I'll figure it out. I probably shouldn't have done that live. But it is, they've made some

00:26:55   curious decisions. I sent, I'll put it in the show notes that the getting started guy, here's a weird

00:27:01   here's a weird scenario. The daylight computer doesn't have a camera, no front facing camera,

00:27:06   no rear facing camera. It's sort of an anti distraction. That's their marketing.

00:27:11   Yeah, that's what they're hanging their hat on. And I'm fine with that.

00:27:15   Pete Lien Say some cost too.

00:27:16   David Tenenbaum I kind of, I kind of like the idea of either put a really good camera in or don't

00:27:22   even bother with a camera because what do you what are you going to do with it? Are you really going

00:27:25   to do work calls on a black and white screen like zoom? Are you going to take photographs out of the

00:27:31   back camera of this thing? Ah, best to leave it off. But in the box, the getting started guide

00:27:39   is a QR code. It's not and they don't even tell you the URL. It's like a site they built with

00:27:44   Notion and I'll bet before they ship they might this might be sort of a beta while that these are

00:27:49   prototypes. So they have a like a getting started guide that they made in Notion. But to get to it,

00:27:55   you have to use a QR code, but the device itself doesn't have a camera. So I used my phone and I

00:28:02   opened it up on Safari on my phone. And I've got the getting started guide. Oh, here's what that

00:28:07   button does. Okay. And now it's well, I, I should read this on the daylight itself. How do I get the

00:28:13   URL there? Yeah, because I don't have content. This brings me back to my hey, when you're in the Apple

00:28:19   ecosystem, I keep thinking to myself, oh, I'll just copy the URL and I'll go over here and just

00:28:25   hit paste in Chrome and it'll be no, that won't work. And so I can say so what I've done is I've

00:28:31   signed into my Google account. And I use what's it called Google keep, which is sort of like their

00:28:37   notes app. And then for things I want to share between the two, I just paste it into a Google keep

00:28:43   note on one of my Apple no airdrop. There's no no airdrop synchronized clipboard. There's

00:28:50   it's actually a hard problem. It's really, really a constant stream of being detached from my arsenal

00:29:01   of daily tools and just features that I take advantage of it. It definitely distraction free,

00:29:07   though, right? I mean, it's in some way that that that's not necessarily a bad thing, right? You

00:29:12   don't have your clipboard manager. So you know, you're not going to be tempted by things on the

00:29:17   clipboard. You could look at it that way. It is for certain things. It's going to be a lot of

00:29:23   friction. Yeah, I will say before we go, I want to and I don't want to get an argument about it. I've

00:29:29   I'll put this in the show notes, but I've written about it. A daring fireball Apple supports two

00:29:35   features related to color temperature. True Tone, which is I believe and has for years now been

00:29:43   on by default on I think Mac, iPad, everything. I've had pro point nine inch. And the true tone is

00:29:55   just sort of trying to you it uses light point. And so if you were in daylight, I guess that's

00:30:07   fairly blue light. And if it's nighttime, and you're in a room lit by incandescent belt bulbs,

00:30:14   that's a very warm orange light. True Tone attempts to just magically keep your screen looking

00:30:22   normal. Right? I personally find true tone to be an absolutely invisible feature. And I mean that

00:30:29   in the best way. I never noticed it. I never think Oh, true tone kicked in at nighttime because now

00:30:35   it's it's my my office lights are on because the sun went down and the color temperature shifted

00:30:41   in my office and now my screen looks different because of true tone. I don't even notice it.

00:30:45   I really don't. I think it's a great feature. The other feature they Apple supports is called

00:30:51   night shift and night shift is what was there was a third party or still is maybe a third party

00:30:57   utility. Yeah, yeah, yeah. flux. I think it was Yeah, FL UX, something like that. So that whole

00:31:03   period UX, I think, and night shift is sounds like it's if you don't, you really have to see the

00:31:11   difference for the end if you're if you're listening to me now and you know the difference,

00:31:16   you're like nodding your head. You're like, Yeah, Groover, we know night shift is really,

00:31:19   really strong. And true tone is really, really subtle. But if you haven't messed around with it,

00:31:25   mess around with it at night, and you'll be like, Oh, yeah, night shift is based on this idea that

00:31:30   blue light is bad for your sleep bad for your health at night that it's because blue light is

00:31:38   daylight. The the thinking the hypothesis is your body only expects to see blue light during daylight

00:31:45   hours. And so oh, it's nine o'clock at night, and you're getting all this blue light from

00:31:50   your computer screen. And it somehow tricks your body into thinking, oh, it's not time to start

00:31:57   winding down for sleep. And now you're up too late because your body got thrown off. There's

00:32:04   there's not a lot of evidence that that works. And there's a fairly convincing amount of evidence that

00:32:10   it doesn't work that there aren't really health benefits to it. It's a decent hypothesis. But it

00:32:15   turns out that when actual rigorous scientific studies have attempted to prove it, they don't

00:32:19   get the results. But if I know I have many friends, well, men are about many, but several friends who

00:32:27   definitely use night shift because I don't use it. I think it looks gross. I think it makes everything

00:32:31   look nicotine for a while. I found myself having to turn it off. You know, you want to check colors

00:32:36   or something on a layout, you need to see the color. I think that the bigger problem for me is

00:32:42   emitted light versus reflected light. I think that looking less at screens or less bright screens

00:32:50   is a good thing. The fact that that's I think that daylight computer, the fact that it has a

00:32:56   reflective display like the Kindle readers, they're heading down a totally different path than Apple

00:33:03   is with its displays. Yeah, which are ever, ever brighter. It was like, well, they don't,

00:33:09   they literally doubled down with it with the iPad Pro. I know. Two displays in the thing.

00:33:14   I even put it in my review of my review two weeks ago, the new iPad Pro even mentioned the first

00:33:21   time I tried to use it in bed, I had to manually turn down the brightness because it was like a sun

00:33:26   lamp just at the default setting. Some developers gonna make iSunbed or something like that, right?

00:33:33   I can. Before we move on, I just want to assert I do not believe there's any scientific evidence

00:33:40   that night shift helps people sleep. But I also know what it's like to have a subjective preference

00:33:46   for something you find comfortable like my mechanical keyboards. I don't expect other

00:33:51   people to. And if you find you dear listener of the show, find that night shift is easier on your

00:33:57   eyes, then two thumbs up for me. I'm glad that's in there. My only hesitation is just the little

00:34:04   bit of language Apple puts in the still has in the description that it may help you sleep better.

00:34:10   I think that they should just tweak that to say you may find it more comfortable on your eyes

00:34:14   late at night because I think that that sleep stuff is a little bit of pseudoscience. And I

00:34:21   like when I wrote about it a couple years ago, I just wonder how many people have it turned on

00:34:28   because they think the pseudoscience is true, even though they personally find it unpleasant to look

00:34:34   at. This does make my screen look nicotine stained, but I want to sleep better. So I'll

00:34:39   leave it on. I kind of feel like maybe if you don't like the way it looks and you don't find

00:34:44   it more comfortable, you should turn it off. Do you know about the blank app that I wrote for

00:34:48   Apple TV? You it's ringing a bell, but you'll have to basically just basically it's an app that makes

00:34:55   the screen black. Right? Again, it's less light in the evening. Like you're listening to music

00:35:02   or podcasts or something, you don't need to see the big old huge, bright screen. It's just going

00:35:07   to be basically showing a static image. So I wrote this app that just basically shows a black screen

00:35:13   and then you hit the home button and it comes back to life and you're good to go. But yeah, it's just

00:35:20   the notion that I think the thing that everybody is acutely aware of is that your eyes get tired

00:35:29   looking at these screens all day. I mean, we look at a screen all day and then we're looking at

00:35:33   screens before we watch TV and then we're looking at the screen while we're watching shows over.

00:35:39   You're going to go look at another screen. It's like, how do we reduce the amount of light that's

00:35:47   bombarding our eyes? Especially late in the day. Yeah, and I've had some stretches where I've had

00:35:53   issues with my eyes that as I've had surgery and stuff and was recovering from them, particularly

00:36:01   felt like, oh, and it would be like, I can read this screen. Great. My big concern is what if I

00:36:06   can't even read the screen? Ah, I can read the screen. This is great. Or like when I had cataract

00:36:12   surgery, when the cataract really bad before I had had them removed, I really had trouble reading the

00:36:20   screens at some point. I in dark mode saved my bacon from a few months before I had the procedure,

00:36:26   because I don't like dark mode. I don't prefer it. But dark background with light text worked

00:36:33   with my cataract in a way that white background with dark text blur it to blow blew everything out.

00:36:40   And after I had the cataract surgery, then it was like, oh, this is great. I can see so much better.

00:36:45   This is you know, it's it's, it's really amazing. It's for everybody. It's it's it. And the thing

00:36:51   that's interesting is that you don't realize how important some of these things are until you need

00:36:56   them. Right? It's so larger text. I'm 64 now, right? Larger text. That's a good thing. Well,

00:37:02   contrast contrast is the big one with a cataract because a cataract it's it diffuses light and

00:37:09   that the telltale sign that you might be at the beginning stages of a cataract is when you're out

00:37:14   at night, like driving at night, do the street lights like the red, yellow, green, do they seem

00:37:20   to have a big bloom around them? That's that's a sign of a cataract early sign. And then that

00:37:27   blooming gets worse and worse as the cataract gets worse. But like the contrast issues. So for

00:37:32   example, I'm sure you've seen this, everybody has seen it. But like a pill bottle, like just Tylenol.

00:37:38   And if they print, instead of printing, black, black ink, they just use the injection molding

00:37:47   of the plastic to tell you what to do. Or my beard clippers are like that they're they're black

00:37:53   plastic, and they have a number on them. But the number is just injection molded on the black

00:37:58   plastic. And when I had the cataract, I couldn't read it. I could not read the numbers. Because it's

00:38:04   just that there's no contrast. And I feel like nobody's on medicine that are criminal.

00:38:11   It's it's the irony of it is that the people who use these medications the most are older.

00:38:17   People have shitty eyes. And then they then they have a little fold out thing,

00:38:24   you tear that thing off and the text gets smaller. That again, the phone, the iPhone's magnifying

00:38:31   thing, that little UI that you bring up, you can take zoom in and take a snapshot. And that

00:38:37   I used to I used to oh, yeah, that's what I use in restaurants, right? They've got a low contrast.

00:38:45   It looks some designer designed the menu and in perfect lighting conditions, and you're in this

00:38:50   dark restaurant. You can't read what is in the dish. Right? Right. Pull off the phone. Everybody's

00:38:57   done it. Yep. Anyway, back to the daylight. I don't know I had I'm with you. I'm not a big

00:39:06   believer in the blue light amber light. I think amber is cool. You know, it brings back retro

00:39:11   vibes of I remember those old amber terminals. So those are cool. Yeah, I all things considered if

00:39:18   you had to pick if you came into a lab and there were some open seats in front of the green terminal

00:39:24   and in front of an amber terminal and otherwise it was the same. I think I'd go amber. Oh, it just

00:39:30   just seemed a little cooler. So I like it. I like the amber and it's kind of interesting being gray

00:39:35   scale. It is kind of constantly surprising when it does things that he ink can't do because I've

00:39:40   I've used the Kindle enough times over the years. I'm not a huge ebook reader or Kindle user, but

00:39:46   I've owned one for God, probably like 2010 or something a couple models. But when you see a

00:39:52   video start to play and it's playing at 30 frames per second and it's just grayscale it's whoa,

00:39:57   that's weird. I don't expect video to play on it on a device like this. And I don't love Kindles,

00:40:03   but I feel like their single minded dedication towards reading of ebooks serves them well,

00:40:10   even though you think wouldn't it be better if your Kindle was just as good at reading ebooks

00:40:14   as it already is. But you can also get your email on it. And you could also have a web browser,

00:40:20   and they have they have like an experimental web browser in its scroll so poorly and renders so

00:40:25   poorly. It's like just good enough to look up a fact and so bad that you would never use it.

00:40:31   But I actually think that's a feature not a bug, because it keeps you using the Kindle for the one

00:40:38   thing you want to be using it for which is reading a book. Whereas with this the daylight DC one,

00:40:44   because it has a full version of Chrome running and it scrolls fine. It has me surfing the web

00:40:52   and doing all the things I do on an iPad except I'm not in the iPad ecosystem. And so I'm frustrated

00:40:57   and completely beside the point of this innovative unique display. I just find myself wishing it

00:41:07   were an iPad, not an Android because it's not tied to any of the apps I want to use. It's not

00:41:12   tied to continuity, blah, blah, blah. Have you used it much outside? I mean,

00:41:16   that's that to me is one of the big benefits of these reflective displays, right?

00:41:21   John Greenewald A little.

00:41:22   David Schanzer A little item in.

00:41:23   John Greenewald And it's it's I've used it enough outside or

00:41:27   just with a beam of sunlight coming through the window to really simulate a lighting condition.

00:41:33   It's not great for even iPads. And it works. If I were going to read outside, I would definitely

00:41:41   consider this. But it's almost like I wish it did even less. It's almost like I wish that it just had

00:41:47   was more focused on ebooks somehow. And it is it's it's for me, because I'm spoiled by an iPad,

00:41:56   it feels thick and heavy. It feels I again, maybe I'm wrong. And if I went back and got an iPad three,

00:42:03   I'd be shocked at how much heavier an iPad three is, I guess I could look up the text specs.

00:42:07   But remember, the iPad three came out. And I think that was the first retina iPad. And it was thicker

00:42:13   and heavier than the iPad two or the original. And then they came out with the iPad for six months

00:42:19   later and got it thinner. It was sort of that the iPad three was sort of a stopgap to get the first

00:42:24   retina one out. In my memory, at least this feels like an iPad three, it feels like a tablet that I

00:42:31   wish were thinner and lighter. And then when I actually picked up my Kindle Oasis, which they've

00:42:36   discontinued, I don't know why I don't know if they're going to replace it. But it's, I think

00:42:41   the nicest Kindle they ever made, but it's it's not a big textbook Kindle. It's the you know,

00:42:46   sort of paperback Kindle. It is so lightweight, it feels like you could blow it around the

00:42:51   countertop, right? It feels like if I blew hard enough on it, it would move like a sheet of paper.

00:42:56   It's so lightweight. And this is not that what else comes with a stylus and the stylus works.

00:43:06   And the latency isn't bad. Apple pencil again. I realized while I'm like, and it's like just

00:43:14   enough latency where it's like this uncanny valley and I'm not an illustrator. So I'm not making a

00:43:20   drawing. But what's the first thing I do? I sign my name. I don't know, I make my signature. And

00:43:24   it's I can just tell it's lagging a little and I still experience it. I don't have to sign for

00:43:30   credit card purchases that often when I'm out and about in a retail but every once in a while you're

00:43:34   at some store with an old POS a piece of shit point of sale. A POS POS that still requires

00:43:43   your little dignity. The pharmacy makes me sign I guess that might be Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that

00:43:49   little medical HIPAA kind of Yeah, yeah. So there's some kind of HIPAA thing like and maybe it's only

00:43:56   when I pick up from Amy, you know, it's like but if you pick up a prescription for your spouse,

00:44:00   you have to sign and you can see you know, the latency on those things is laughable, right? This

00:44:07   isn't that bad. This is pretty good. But it is not Apple pencil. Right. And yeah, I was just saying

00:44:13   meanwhile, Apple's adding shadows to the pencil that make it look like a pin. There's a bit of

00:44:19   so there. So what's my conclusion? I don't know. This device is good enough to be intriguing. And

00:44:26   it's it's intriguing in all the ways I kind of thought it was based on their promo video. I think

00:44:33   I think it's been presented by the company very fairly. It is kind of what I expected.

00:44:39   Build quality could be better. But again, is it a prototype? I'm not sure. It kind of has the

00:44:46   feeling of being the very nicest 3d printed thing I've ever felt in my life. As opposed to

00:44:53   Josh dingus. No, not that the chalk dingus does not have have that. They also made some curious

00:45:00   decisions where they added extra buttons, they added an action button, which is sort of like

00:45:05   the phone, iPhones action button. And it's just by default, just mapped to some specific function.

00:45:11   It's how can we help you today daylight share feedback report bug ask question. So again,

00:45:18   that might be something they're doing while this is still in beta, the software is in beta,

00:45:22   where it's like, Oh, if you have encounter a bug or anything, there's a button at the top,

00:45:26   you can hit to just get a feedback form right away. Doesn't test flight do that now where it's

00:45:30   like, when you're when you're when you have a test flight installation of a iOS app, and you

00:45:36   take a screenshot, test flight can say, Oh, do you want to send this to the developer because you're

00:45:41   reporting a bug. And those are great, by the way. That's one thing that Apple's added to test flight

00:45:46   that it's really been pictures worth 1000 words. They also added a back button, a hardware back

00:45:54   button, but not on the front face. It's on the side underneath the volume buttons. I it's like

00:46:01   something some Android has had an obsession with hardware buttons, right from the beginning,

00:46:10   and it's never made sense to me running a version of Android, isn't it? It is running a version of

00:46:15   Android. And it's kind of weird where they are, like their help document says they're going to

00:46:21   use something called the Aurora store because they're not I don't think that they're I don't

00:46:26   think they qualify for the Google Play Google Play. But mine has Google Play. I have Google

00:46:32   Play here. So I'm not quite sure what's going to ship on the final software. That was another

00:46:37   question I had was gonna ask you is app wise sounds like there's something something that can

00:46:41   run apps. But yeah, yeah, I mean, are there any apps installed on it? Or? Yeah, there's a came

00:46:47   with the kid. It came with the Kindle, Google Docs chat GPT pre installed Chrome, of course,

00:46:55   there's a chess app, there's an app they call notebook. I'm not quite sure who makes this

00:47:00   notebook app. But it's it's kind of nice. And that's the app that you can scribble in with the

00:47:07   with the stylus here about note shelf. So it's an it's an Android app called note shelf, and by note

00:47:14   shelf incorporated. So you could look it up on Android and see it. I should look and see if

00:47:18   there's an Apple app or an iOS app so I can sync the notes between the two. Overall, it's it's

00:47:26   interesting. It's probably not for me. I don't know. But I'm glad I am so glad I'm I wish I

00:47:32   loved it more. But I'm so glad to see companies like this trying new things in hardware. I really,

00:47:38   really am. And I know that I've made fun of humane and their AI pin. But I'm still glad humane tried

00:47:46   it. And I know that this rabbit are one is sort of I have one of the I did buy one of those. And

00:47:51   I have to say it is in real life. It is pointless. Unfortunately, I honestly I just can't I never want

00:47:59   I take it out with me. It's in my pocket. And I never ever, ever think of a reason to use it ever.

00:48:05   But I'm still glad they made it. I'm glad companies are trying with hardware. I feel like

00:48:10   we went through a very long stretch of consolidation where hardware startups just stopped happening for

00:48:16   a while. Right. The last decade was just really dry on innovative hardware startups. I kind of I

00:48:23   don't know, maybe you can think of some examples. But once Apple Watch came out, yeah, there was a

00:48:30   there was a lot a lot of action going on with with the combat fit. Fitbit in particular and trying

00:48:37   things low. Let's try a watch. Let's try one that's just a band. There was a lot of experimentation

00:48:43   like that. And it feels like Apple Watch took all the oxygen out of that even though Apple Watch

00:48:48   only works for iPhone users. It just feels like even on the Android side of things. In any kind

00:48:53   of innovation and stuff you wear on your wrist sort of stopped. Well, one of the big problems

00:48:58   with doing hardware these days is that we've already talked about it, right? The whole ecosystem

00:49:04   buying the hardware, right? Apple's got this huge expansive ecosystem. So does Google. Right. So

00:49:11   you come up with a device, you're gonna say, well, it doesn't have the syncing key clipboard, it

00:49:17   doesn't have my iCloud drive, doesn't have all these other things, because it doesn't have that

00:49:21   ecosystem. So the hardware, you can look at it and go, yeah, that's a nice display, scrolls nicely,

00:49:30   and all that stuff. But then you get to the point where it's like, what can I do with it? Right. And

00:49:34   that's where the ecosystems become a barrier. Yeah, and I guess my last thing is just to circle

00:49:42   back to what you said, which is, even with this black and white display in the amber backlighting,

00:49:47   which I do think is easier on your on my eyes late at night. Definitely. I mean, it doesn't

00:49:52   glow as much. It is definitely easier. But it still is glowing. And I kind of feel like,

00:49:59   I don't know, that it's so weird, because I still like reading paper books. And that's why my,

00:50:07   I was so, I don't know, nonchalant about my Kindle, because I just don't I read a,

00:50:15   I read on it sometimes. But all things considered, I prefer to read paper. But then I'm in bed. And

00:50:22   how do you read a paper book in bed in the night? And there's all sorts of... Piss off the person

00:50:27   next to you. Yeah, there's all sorts of contraptions that people have made over the years.

00:50:32   There's things you snap on the book. Some people have lights on the bed. We don't. But there's,

00:50:39   sometimes hotels will have them too, like a little spotlight over your shoulder for reading at night.

00:50:44   I bought a thing that my wife mocks me mercilessly every time I wear it.

00:50:51   But it goes around, it goes around, it goes around your neck. And it's, and it has two lights.

00:51:00   And so it's like wearing, I'm there with you. It's like wearing a flash.

00:51:05   It's like wearing a flashlight on a plastic boa constrictor that goes around your neck.

00:51:12   That's a good look at that. Well, it is definitely. Do you wear that?

00:51:16   No, definitely. There will never be a picture. But I will try to put it in the show.

00:51:20   I'll get it to Amy. The night, my nightlight.

00:51:25   It's just funny though, because I think to myself, well, I would like to read a paper book in bed. So

00:51:32   I need to get some kind of light. But then the light is I should just use an iPad. That would

00:51:35   be easier, right? Then you don't have to set anything up. Your wife doesn't point at your

00:51:40   neck and laugh at anything. And when you do want to go to sleep, you just hit one button to shut

00:51:45   off the iPad screen, put it on your table, close your eyes, go to bed. So yeah, I solved that

00:51:52   problem by not reading in bed. Just I just, yeah, in bed, close my eyes. That's, that's sort of

00:51:59   where I've wound up. I don't really read in bed that I mean, honestly, because it's like, it never

00:52:03   seems ideal. And it's more like, I should just go to sleep. Yeah. I don't know. I don't have any

00:52:09   other questions about it. But it's interesting that they're starting to ship in July, they've

00:52:14   batched these up. So people who pre ordered will start getting them, I guess, a month from now,

00:52:19   throughout the rest of the year. And I'm very, very interested to see what other people think

00:52:24   about it. It's by far and away, the most interesting new device ish, like a tablet or e

00:52:32   reader that I've seen in years, I bought a kobo because Jason Snell seemed to like kobos a year or

00:52:37   two ago. And I really hate it. I mean, like in a way that I, I find hard to put into words, like so

00:52:45   hard to put into words that I haven't even figured out how to write a review, where I express my

00:52:51   hatred for it. I, I like it so much less than a Kindle. It's hard to explain. And I thought

00:52:57   because I have so many complaints about Kindle software and Amazon's lack of taste in software

00:53:02   design, that surely I'll like this better than a Kindle, but I don't. And and mainly because with

00:53:07   the kobo, I feel like I can never get the books to look right. I'm the one who's got to play with

00:53:13   the font selection and the line height. The typography by default is bad. The fonts that

00:53:21   are built into it are bad and they let you add fonts. I don't think Kindle does. You connect it

00:53:27   with the kobo. You can connect it and add fonts to a folder. And I spent hours more or less designing

00:53:35   my own books. Whereas if I just bought a paper book, you come out of the store and it's already

00:53:40   been designed by a professional typesetter. I shouldn't have to do this. And the default

00:53:44   shouldn't be so crude. Everything to me on the kobo, everything looks like it was just set in

00:53:49   Microsoft Word by default, but just, it doesn't look typeset. It looks like a manuscript. But

00:53:54   anyway, I find this daylight to be much more interesting, but maybe not that interesting.

00:54:02   But yeah, what are you going to use it for? I'll keep an eye on him. Let's take another break here.

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00:56:43   That's nuts.com/thetalkshow. I'm about to strawberries there. No, I should add that to

00:56:52   my next order. Oh, I love darts. We order a bag of those. They're gone that same night.

00:56:57   It's weird. I like dried bananas to banana chips. Yeah. But for some reason, dried strawberry. I

00:57:04   I've never been a huge fan of raw strawberries. I don't know why because I love strawberry flavor.

00:57:09   And if somebody has strawberries, I will eat them. It's not like I don't but I don't know. There's

00:57:13   something about the texture of them that I've never quite liked from childhood onward. But

00:57:17   dried strawberries. Mmm. Yeah, like nature's candy. Yeah, that's that's it. It's really there.

00:57:23   You feel like it's healthy. But after a bag of them, you realize that's probably not that healthy.

00:57:29   What else do we have? Have you seen the new iPad pros yet? I have not. No. I should know the answer

00:57:37   to this. But you you can answer for me. Does linea? linear take? linear? Is that how you pronounce

00:57:43   it? Yeah. Everybody. You're not the first person to have a problem with the with the son of a bitch

00:57:48   pixel mature all over again. No, yeah, it works fine on it. When we're looking at new stuff that

00:57:54   it can do and yeah, do you get the reflection of the pen or be are you doing enough custom drawing?

00:58:02   We're doing enough custom drawing that we're gonna have to figure out what we're we're gonna do there

00:58:07   that that I believe that's all limited to pencil kit, which is the thing they embed in notes and

00:58:13   all the other apps can embed that but then you you're limited to Apple's drawing experience, which

00:58:19   for linea is is we do a lot of things above and beyond what they can do. So

00:58:24   you've got your own tools and brushes of layers and things like that. So it's Yeah.

00:58:31   So you're in the tough spot where Apple's raised the bar for? Yeah. Well, that the thing is, is

00:58:40   that they get in Mayhew that he was the one that originally had the idea he and Troy gall had the

00:58:47   idea for for linea and and he's got the new iPad Pro and he loves it and that there's a use case

00:58:55   there. Let's put it that way. Well, that's what you need is you need a number one user to be

00:59:01   driving a product. Yeah. And he always has been and he Yeah, they're already thinking about cool

00:59:07   things that we can do with that. The thing about the new iPad that the bugs me it's it's like

00:59:12   Apple's hottest CPU can't run Xcode. Mg. Seagler and I talked about this on the

00:59:20   most recent episode. And yeah, I don't want to repeat myself. But it is that that's,

00:59:27   there is this sort of, and I know you're not like this, you're very empathetic to the normal user,

00:59:34   right? You're not certainly I mean, you're to your whole career is building on this platform, making

00:59:40   software and tools that people come first. Yeah, that the bicycle for the everybody the bicycle

00:59:47   for the mind and it's not you're not making products that are inscrutable. They're scootable.

00:59:52   But there is this sort of and it's slightly entitled and and I know in tight feeling entitled

01:00:03   is pejorative in general. But the idea is if if you have a use case for the fastest possible CPU,

01:00:11   you can get your hands on being a developer who spends all day in Xcode. It seems wrong,

01:00:18   not just weird, but wrong that the fastest single core CPU Apple makes is in a device that's not

01:00:24   meant for running that tool at all. It's not like you can somehow shoehorn Xcode onto it, you can't.

01:00:30   And that just rubs people the wrong way here. Here's this product that you can get like a $3,000

01:00:36   configuration of it. 16 gigs of RAM and two terabytes of storage and the M four chip,

01:00:44   which is faster than and significantly faster in notable ways than the M three.

01:00:50   That's the fastest that you can get in a Mac. Why is this? Right? People are frustrated.

01:00:57   And my counter argument is the iPad is a device that does several things, but one of them is just

01:01:04   being nice, right? It is nicer than a Mac in a lot of ways. It has the now that's got the OLED screen.

01:01:11   It's thinner, it's super way thinner than a MacBook could ever be when you're just holding

01:01:18   the naked iPad. And they're built to last like famously like people complain, hey, you know,

01:01:25   I my personal iPad is still from 2018. I probably am going to upgrade this year. It feels like this

01:01:30   is the year where it's yeah, that's, that's a... Yeah, that's the thing. My iPad, I don't even know

01:01:34   how old it is. I've just, it just, I've had it and I've replaced another iPad that I had that just

01:01:40   got to the point where the screen was looking a little wonky and have some problems with the

01:01:45   charging port and it was like, okay, time to get a new iPad. And the thing that I think a lot of us

01:01:53   have noted and it really was Jason, again, Jason Snell got me started thinking about this is the

01:01:59   iPad, yes, it's nice, but it would also make a really great Swiss army knife. Because it's got

01:02:07   the bits of all the different ecosystems, right? It's got the bit for iOS. It's got the bit for

01:02:16   iPadOS. It's got potentially the bits for macOS. And why can't I, I'm not talking about having,

01:02:27   being able to run iPad or run Mac apps while you're running iPad apps. That's just a non-starter in

01:02:33   my mind. But why can't I put the iPad in a mode where it's like, okay, pretend you're macOS now.

01:02:39   Right. And, and let me carry one device when I travel. Right, right now, it's like everybody

01:02:45   who travels, they're looking at their MacBook and they're looking at their iPad and it's like,

01:02:49   which one goes? Because you don't really want to carry both. They're serving very similar functions.

01:02:56   I see it. You know, you do you have that dilemma?

01:03:00   No, because I just take my, I've given up and I just took my matter. No, no, I don't, I don't

01:03:07   travel with my iPad anymore. I mean, maybe if I were going on a vacation, yeah, but even then,

01:03:15   again, we just talked about the daylight computer. An iPad is not really great for beach reading.

01:03:19   A, the screen and B, the sand, right? I don't know. It just kind of bothers me. No matter how

01:03:27   careful you are, I kind of don't want to take my iPad to the beach. But for the most part,

01:03:32   when I travel, I'm just happier. I've found myself happier just not fighting against

01:03:37   iPadOS and just take my MacBook Pro and my iPhone and that's it. And yeah,

01:03:44   we recently, Lauren and I took a trip to Joshua Tree for a few days and I had that dilemma,

01:03:51   right? Do I want to, because it's just, it was just a little getaway trip and I was like,

01:03:56   okay, do I want to take my iPad or do I want to take my MacBook as well? I've got this little

01:04:00   project that I'm working on in Xcode that I was just kind of wanting to fiddle around with. So,

01:04:05   yeah, I got to take the MacBook, which was great. I fiddled around with the thing for a while.

01:04:10   And then in the evening, it's like I wanted to do some reading and just kind of relax. And that's

01:04:17   when I was like, God, I wish this Mac was an iBook, or excuse me, an iPad.

01:04:21   Pete: Yeah, this iPad was a Mac.

01:04:23   John: Yeah.

01:04:24   Pete; Yeah. I just don't see Apple doing it. And it's weird.

01:04:29   John; Yeah, again, it's a messy presentation. And again, it's the number of people that fall

01:04:37   into that, you know, Federico Vitucci, that contraption that he built with the Mac.

01:04:43   Pete; Yep, yep.

01:04:44   John; Underbody and the iPad.

01:04:45   Pete; Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

01:04:47   John; Yeah.

01:04:48   Pete; Well, and everybody under…

01:04:50   John; Again, it's like the chalk dingus, right? If there's a will, there's a way.

01:04:53   Pete; Right. And I didn't think about this one last week when I was talking about it, but

01:04:57   Apple did officially, with Intel, supported boot camp where you wasn't just emulating Windows,

01:05:04   it was really saying, let's set up a boot partition on your Intel-based Mac. And they made

01:05:10   it as nice as they could for people who would need it. And the typical user who's never even heard of

01:05:16   boot camp was never once bothered by it. It's not like when you bought your brand new MacBook Air,

01:05:22   took it home and booted it for the first time. It didn't start badgering you, like, hey, do you want

01:05:27   to install Windows too? You want to have a dual boot system? It was there for power users who

01:05:32   wanted it or needed it for work to have to be able to boot into Windows. And it stayed out of the way

01:05:38   for others. And so, I can imagine that's where I feel people get like, MG, who really wants to see

01:05:43   them do this, get frustrated. Because they knew that Apple could somehow put this behind developer.

01:05:48   Maybe you even have to have an Apple developer account to turn it on. And that's like a $99

01:05:56   a year barrier that wouldn't matter to you or me because we're already paying,

01:06:02   we're not paying an extra $100 just to turn our iPad to let it do a boot Mac OS. We're already

01:06:07   paying it. But it would be a way of keeping any casual user from saying, Oh, well, let me see

01:06:13   what it's like. But you probably shouldn't, nobody's going to accidentally get into it.

01:06:18   And by making it a developer account only feature. I think that would help if anybody at Apple is

01:06:24   worried that, oh, if we support this, then companies will stop making iPad software,

01:06:30   which is already a problem that third party developers prioritize iPad less than any of

01:06:37   the other platforms. And it would only be worse if they could say, oh, just dual boot your iPad into

01:06:43   Mac and run our Mac app, which is an Electron app. You know what I mean? And I think that would...

01:06:49   Tim Cynova - Part of the iPad app problem is that the whole universal purchase notion. Apple kind

01:06:59   of brought this problem upon themselves and that building the iPad version of an app takes a lot of

01:07:04   resources. And if it's a buy it on iOS, you get it for free on iPad just doesn't kind of work for

01:07:12   developers. So they're fighting against that. But yes, to your point about the gating this thing,

01:07:19   I'd have no problem with it being gated. I'm not expecting to making a product that somebody can

01:07:25   use on an iPad only in Mac OS emulation mode. I mean, can't imagine anybody thinking along

01:07:35   those lines. What do you guys do with Linea Sketch? Linea Sketch is your iPhone companion to Linea.

01:07:44   Is that...

01:07:45   Tim Cynova - No, it's a universal purchase. But it's also, it's a much more limited version of the

01:07:52   app. Right? It works on a smaller screen. The tools are harder to access in some cases.

01:07:59   It's...

01:07:59   Trevor Burrus - It doesn't support, the device doesn't support pencil.

01:08:02   Tim Cynova - No, it doesn't support pencil. And you know, you can draw with your finger,

01:08:06   but that's not great. What we've found is that people mainly use it as a way to show off their

01:08:10   portfolio. They draw something on the iPad, it syncs over iCloud. You can bring it up on your

01:08:17   phone and show it to somebody. And you can zoom in and you know, change the layers and

01:08:22   do all the other... You're not really actually doing much drawing with it, but it's a great

01:08:26   presentation device.

01:08:27   Trevor Burrus - What do you think as we sort of maybe segue here to the WWDC

01:08:35   guesses, expectations, hopes, do you feel like maybe there's going to be Xcode on iPad news?

01:08:45   I mean, to me, the... as exemplified by Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro, Apple's way of putting

01:08:56   Pro software on iPad is to go the whole nine yards and make true native iPad versions of

01:09:03   these apps. So they did not shoehorn the Mac version of Final Cut into an iPad screen.

01:09:10   They made a proper iPad app. And so along that same line of thinking, if Apple perceives a

01:09:18   problem to be solved is software engineers like Craig Hockenberry, who would like to

01:09:23   take their work with them on their iPad Pro, can't do it because Xcode's not there.

01:09:29   Apple's way of thinking isn't, well, let's let the iPad boot into Mac OS. It would be,

01:09:35   let's build a proper version of Xcode for iPad. What would that be like? And Dave?

01:09:39   Dave Asprey - Yeah, to me, the gaining factor there is every developer who's ever

01:09:47   installed Xcode has seen that little panel that comes up that says installing additional

01:09:52   components. And it's installing some USB drivers and who it's been there since the

01:09:57   days of iTunes, right? It's installing some stuff on...

01:10:02   Trevor Burrus - Command line tools, right?

01:10:03   Dave Asprey - Command line tools. There's all sorts of infrastructure that Xcode uses that

01:10:08   works behind the scenes. The process model on iPad OS, you run it, you're basically running

01:10:16   one process at a time, right? You can fake running multiple processes by doing multiple threads,

01:10:23   but having a simulator in one process and having Xcode in another process is just something that

01:10:29   iPad OS can't do right now. It's at a very low level, right? The kernel will not let you

01:10:34   look at another process's information.

01:10:37   Trevor Burrus - And as cited by dozens of reviewers in the last two weeks,

01:10:43   Final Cut Pro exemplifies this, where you can have a big project and export takes a long time.

01:10:50   And if you put Final Cut into the background, the export just stops because it can't do

01:10:56   something like that in the background on iPad OS. And that just seems wrong. I mean,

01:11:02   a three, $4,000 iPad should not have an export fail because while you're waiting for it,

01:11:10   you wanted to read your email or something, right?

01:11:13   Dave Asprey - Yeah. And it's a harder problem than it looks like.

01:11:16   Trevor Burrus - I'm not saying it's easy.

01:11:17   Dave Asprey - Because you have to think about all these shitty developers out there that are

01:11:20   fingerprinting people, right? By looking at, oh, as soon as you give the ability of an iPad app,

01:11:29   the ability to look at other iPad apps process, there are going to be shitheads out there that

01:11:37   go and start, oh, what other apps are running right now? How much memory are these other apps

01:11:42   using? How much CPU time is this process using? And kind of figure out who you are, what you're doing

01:11:51   through inferences. So, yeah, there's a reason that stuff is locked down and hard to do.

01:11:58   And again, makes me think, okay, yeah, just work around that by saying, hey, here's Mac OS

01:12:06   and run it if you want to. If you need to be a developer, great, that's fine.

01:12:11   Trevor Burrus - Yeah. I think and I'm out of touch. I mean, I've never been the biggest Xcode expert

01:12:19   because I don't, I've never really... Dave Asprey - You don't use it every day.

01:12:23   Trevor Burrus - I use it enough to build and run something I download from GitHub or something

01:12:29   like that. But I'm always... Dave Asprey - You're just going to say

01:12:31   "Kotobah is sort of the last thing you do." Trevor Burrus - Yeah, yeah. So, I've built and run

01:12:35   that. But you firsthand that whenever I do, I use Xcode just infrequently enough that I also forget

01:12:42   everything in between. Dave Asprey - Yeah, you have code signing problems and all of that.

01:12:47   Trevor Burrus - And what do I do? I call my good friend Craig.

01:12:51   Dave Asprey - Yeah. Trevor Burrus - Well, how do I solve this?

01:12:55   Dave Asprey - I know way more about provisioning than I ever wanted to.

01:12:59   Trevor Burrus - But I do know though that Xcode, and dating back to when it was Project Builder,

01:13:06   is kind of a very Unix-y way of doing software development under the hood. That you have this

01:13:14   app that is a proper, very complex app kit, app that takes advantage of Apple's great

01:13:22   text system. And they've customized it to be a code editor with autocomplete and they've added

01:13:28   all sorts of stuff that is very Mac-appy. But under the hood, it's doing an awful lot of just

01:13:34   old-school Unix stuff. Calling command line, like LLVM, or having a build phase where you can run

01:13:44   Python scripts. Like, "Oh, every time I build, but I want to build for production, run this script,

01:13:51   which can do anything a script can do." Who knows if it's pulling down the latest versions of assets,

01:13:56   if it's changed. But you expect that script to run and none of that stuff like having,

01:14:01   "Oh, Python doesn't even come with macOS anymore." But it's easy. You just go to Homebrew and

01:14:06   type "brew install python3" and now you've got Python 3 and you could have multiple

01:14:11   versions of Python if you still need Python 3.10 and Python 3.11. You can have them both on the Mac

01:14:19   and control which one runs this build script, which kind of needs an older version of Python,

01:14:25   blah, blah, blah. You can do it and it just works. And none of that stuff is even possible on iPadOS.

01:14:30   Tim Cynova The reason I wrote iPad, or excuse me,

01:14:33   iPulse so many years ago, what, probably about 15, 20 years ago now, is because, yes, I was running

01:14:40   Xcode and it's firing up a bunch of processes. You want to see one that's gone bad, right? In fact,

01:14:47   the same problem exists today, right? The other day, I was like, my Mac was really slowing down

01:14:53   and I went and poked around and it's like I had 867 simulator processes running.

01:15:00   [Laughter]

01:15:01   Pete Lauds How many?

01:15:01   Tim Cynova Eight hundred and something. It's just some ridiculous number and it's just something

01:15:07   had gone awry, right? And it had a bunch of, I was doing SwiftUI development, which fires up

01:15:12   simulators in the background to render stuff. And I knew that because I had iPulse running and it's,

01:15:18   oh, look at all these things. So, yeah, it just, at a very low level, iPadOS just doesn't have

01:15:26   what it takes to do Xcode. And if I was hoping for something in iPadOS, I would be hoping for

01:15:32   them to address some of these issues, right? Being able to run processes in the background.

01:15:38   When I did iPulse on iOS, I was just about to, I'm looking at it right now and I have it on.

01:15:44   Out of the box, it makes a noise when it's in the background. And it has to because it has to get

01:15:52   through app review. And app review, the first thing they ask for is, okay, you're running this

01:15:57   movie in picture in picture and you've got a background audio entitlement, how does it make

01:16:05   noise? So, I show it has an alert tone if you go over certain thing and it actually is useful.

01:16:11   A couple of times I've used that, but for a lot of people, the first thing they ask is like,

01:16:15   how do I turn the noise off? But to be clear, so iPulse for people who don't know,

01:16:19   like you said, it's 20 some years old on the Mac maybe, but it's a, long story short,

01:16:25   it's a system monitor, CPU, RAM, how much RAM are you using? What's going on in your network,

01:16:32   stuff like that. And of course, well, there's a zillion utilities like that, but there's only one

01:16:39   that's designed by icon factory. I mean, that's right. I mean, it's,

01:16:42   we've been doing it for 25 years. We've gotten kind of good at it.

01:16:47   It's like when you talk about Nova from panic, you're like, oh, another text editor. What's the

01:16:52   trick? Well, this one's designed by panic. If that doesn't get you to at least look at it,

01:16:57   then maybe it's not for you. And it's a system monitor designed by icon factory. Yeah, I'd like

01:17:02   to see that. How does it work on iOS though? It seemingly is doing the impossible because like you

01:17:08   said, a background process isn't on iOS, isn't supposed to be.

01:17:13   You can get general statistics, right? You can get overall CPU usage. You can get

01:17:17   global kinds of information. And that's all that it's displaying is global information.

01:17:22   The difference on Mac OS is you can actually go look at a process and see how much time a

01:17:27   process is actually using or how much process memory is being used. Those kinds of things.

01:17:33   On iOS, that's just not, and I've spent a lot of time trying to dig around and get as much.

01:17:38   And it's just, iOS is locked down for a reason. And as a result, iPad OS is locked down.

01:17:46   So, it would be great if some of these things could open up a bit. And it's not a hardware

01:17:55   limitation, right? That M4 chip is going to be in a MacBook Pro here anytime now, right?

01:18:02   It's not the hardware that's holding things back anymore. And it was initially, right?

01:18:07   This whole lockdown, one thing on the screen at a time, that whole model worked really well

01:18:15   to get iOS up and running. And I think it made sense to take that and put it on the early iPads

01:18:24   as well. Because they had a bigger screen, but they still had some of the same limitations,

01:18:29   memory, CPU, those kinds of things. Now we're at these devices that are just absolute beasts.

01:18:36   And they're still running with their hands tied behind their back. So, what do you do there?

01:18:42   There's got to be some kind of change there. We're going to be running one process at a time

01:18:49   in one window or faking it with stage manager in 10 years time.

01:18:55   Pete: The last thing that iPulse on iOS is doing that's clever is, well, how are you even drawing

01:19:00   these charts, the graphs of live CPU performance? How is that-

01:19:05   Johnathan M: I'm building a movie on the fly.

01:19:07   Pete; You're building a movie and playing the movie and iOS supports picture in picture. So,

01:19:15   in the same way that you can watch a YouTube video in the background while you do other things on

01:19:20   your iPhone, you can watch an iPulse movie in the background and the movie just happens to be

01:19:25   generated on the fly by you, which is really clever. Riley Testa, I keep wanting to call it

01:19:33   iClip, Clip, which is his clipboard manager for iOS, has a similar sort of like the way that to

01:19:41   get through app. If you're doing picture in picture, the video has to be able to play sound,

01:19:45   even though you don't really want sound on a thing. With the clip, to be able to run in the

01:19:51   background to, and again, this isn't even in the app store, this is just to get it into like test

01:19:56   flight and get it approved for test flight distribution, is we can't run in the background

01:20:03   all the time to look for the clipboard to change, which is something all Mac clipboard utilities do.

01:20:09   And in fact, because so many utilities on the Mac include clipboard management as one of several

01:20:14   features, I've got three running all the time. I've got like Keyboard Maestro, I've got Payspot,

01:20:20   which is a dedicated clipboard manager, and Keyboard Maestro does it too, and who cares?

01:20:25   It doesn't matter. It's not slowing my computer down.

01:20:28   They've got the same information, but so what?

01:20:30   So what Riley's clip does to maintain the ability to monitor clipboard changes in the background is

01:20:38   it remembers where you were whenever you copied anything, and it has location data associated with

01:20:45   it very broadly, like the broadest possible radius. So it's, I don't know, like a mile or something,

01:20:52   because he doesn't want to pinpoint your house or your office or your coffee shop. It's just that

01:20:58   you're allowed to have always on background access with the user's permission, and so that's the way

01:21:05   that he's running in the background at all to watch the clipboard. But it just means that it's—

01:21:11   John: Our friends at Panic are doing a similar thing with Prompt, their SSH client, right?

01:21:17   They have this like location feature, which is just that it's another way to let things

01:21:24   that need to be in the background be in the background.

01:21:28   And— here, I'm looking at my last few clips in my clipboard manager here on my phone. I was in

01:21:36   Philadelphia. I was in Philadelphia. I was in Philadelphia. I was in Philadelphia.

01:21:41   [Laughter]

01:21:42   You got a little at home, John.

01:21:44   [Laughter]

01:21:44   Yeah, it's just— I guess, though, here's— before we wrap this up,

01:21:50   this segment, I guess the thing that I've realized after my last episode that I didn't quite get off

01:21:56   my chest is— and I'm so glad to talk about it again— is with the Mac, going back to 1984,

01:22:06   the whole computer for the rest of us idea, it informed as a kid— I was 11, 12 when I started

01:22:13   reading about the Macintosh and thought, "Boy, this sounds like the way I think computers should

01:22:19   work. This is exciting," which is you don't have to read a textbook to learn how to use the system

01:22:28   first, which is how computers were. You had to read a thick manual to understand all of these.

01:22:34   And they were thick. There were some of the most popular apps at the time had just Bible-sized

01:22:40   user guides.

01:22:41   And they had Bible-sized user guides and very popular books at the local bookstore

01:22:47   that were like— here's David Pogue.

01:22:49   "Unlock the secrets of X."

01:22:51   Yeah. And if you became an expert in Lotus 1-2-3, you knew nothing about how to use WordPerfect

01:23:02   for DOS. Like, the way that you apply commands wasn't even the same. You'd have to read the

01:23:09   manual for the WordPerfect, too. And the idea with the Macintosh was you, A, the interface would be

01:23:15   discoverable, and you could just look at it and you'd read. And the menus are organized and all

01:23:20   the commands are in a menu, and hopefully the menus have names that are consistent with other

01:23:27   apps across the system, so there's familiarity. And it's, "Oh, I'll bet that would be in the

01:23:32   edit menu." And you look in the edit menu and there's the command. "Oh, yes, that's where it

01:23:37   is. Duplicate. I can duplicate the selected item in the edit menu." Just like I could in this other

01:23:42   app, which has a duplicate command in the edit menu. And you could use the computer very, very

01:23:50   simply and visually. You're just moving a mouse cursor around and double-clicking on icons and

01:23:55   dragging and typing, and you could use it in a very basic way and get a lot of users without any

01:24:02   deep expert knowledge in the Mac interface could get a lot done. And that's very exciting.

01:24:09   But that to become an expert user didn't require you to switch modes. It didn't—there was no secret

01:24:16   toggle to turn on the expert boot into a command line because you're a power user. The Mac

01:24:23   interface scaled to expert use, and you could just learn, "Oh, there's a keyboard shortcut for that.

01:24:30   Oh, they list the keyboard shortcuts next to all the menu items in the thing in the menu bar."

01:24:36   Learning how to do rubber band selection, right? Let's say you have a dozen files on your desktop,

01:24:43   and you'd like to select a bunch of them. You don't have to shift-click, shift-click, shift-click,

01:24:48   shift-click. You could just drag what we call a rubber band, a dotted rectangle, and all the

01:24:55   icons that fall within the region you just dragged out would highlight as they reach the reason,

01:25:02   and then when you let go, they're all selected. And boom, you can select seven items if you have—and

01:25:06   then you could organize your files on your desktop to suit that. "Oh, I might want to drag these

01:25:11   seven files together. These three images, I'll move them up to the corner so that they're apart

01:25:17   from them." And you'd learn these tricks, and all of a sudden you can do things like select 10 files

01:25:21   at once in half a second with a simple click because you learned how to do this. And it would

01:25:27   scale to—I think people like me and you, everybody who's an expert Mac user for a long time has all

01:25:33   sorts of little tips and tricks that other people, if they watched us work, would be like, "Whoa,

01:25:37   whoa, how'd you do that?" And it all fits within the framework that the basicest of basic Mac users

01:25:46   starts with, and it scales up. When I—

01:25:49   It was a virtuous circle too, right? Because these things were easy, developers saw that they were

01:25:55   using them, and then developer tools they were using, they had these easy things. So, they started

01:26:00   putting them in these easy things in their apps. And I'm not going to put copy command in something

01:26:06   other than the edit menu because nobody's going to know it's there. So, yeah, it—I mean, I remember

01:26:14   the first time I used Mac Paint. It was just like, "My God, this is so simple." And look at the

01:26:22   things that I'm doing with it. It just—it was kind of inconceivable that—

01:26:28   I'm making pixels appear on screen in real time.

01:26:31   Right.

01:26:31   As I'm clicking and drawing, I'm making art on my computer screen without programming it. I'm not

01:26:38   programming a little turtle and logo to turn 30 degrees and go two inches and turn 60 degrees and

01:26:45   draw a line. No, I'm just clicking and dragging, and I'm making lines, and I can't draw, but boy,

01:26:52   this is fun. Yeah. Where I'm going with this is that base entry point for the Mac, even going

01:27:02   back to 1984, maybe even more so back then, honestly, would allow you to shoot yourself in

01:27:08   the foot if you wanted to. You could drag files that you definitely should not drag to the trash

01:27:13   to the trash. You could open up any file in the system folder with ResEdit and start hacking away

01:27:22   at resources and you could—

01:27:24   Yeah, there was no system integrity protection.

01:27:27   So what was the most—what was—I would say 98% of all ResEdit use was probably tweaking icons,

01:27:35   right?

01:27:35   Yeah, changing menus, tweaking icons.

01:27:38   If you didn't have a backup and you totally botched your custom version of an icon,

01:27:44   you decided to try to draw yourself, well, so what? You've got an ugly icon. But you could do

01:27:49   all sorts of other things in ResEdit that would render your software unusable. You could make a

01:27:53   mistake. You were able to do that.

01:27:55   You could have system extensions, which would sometimes cause a lot of instability.

01:28:00   Well, I didn't really understand why.

01:28:03   Definitely. I mean, I often say this, but it was like the zen of being a Mac user was like—it's

01:28:09   in those classic days—was a bell curve where the typical entry-level user had no third-party

01:28:14   system extensions when they booted. Then you hit the sweet spot where you've read a bunch of issues

01:28:20   of Macworld and Macuser and maybe MacAdvent. And you've built up this arsenal of your favorite

01:28:28   system extensions and control panels. And it used to be—I remember like in the help columns,

01:28:32   they'd be like, "How many rows of icons do you see when you boot your Mac?" And it'd be like,

01:28:37   "I've got four." And it's, "Wow." And then the real expert, expert power user curve is fewer and

01:28:44   fewer and fewer until you get to—and not all of them. It would always be like the three extensions

01:28:50   that you could not do without, but that they were, you know—

01:28:54   Yeah, some sort of SCSI extension or something like that. You absolutely needed to run some hardware.

01:29:00   Yeah, or a font manager, right? What was the—

01:29:02   I even mentioned—

01:29:03   Font case.

01:29:03   It was not font case. What was it called?

01:29:06   I forget.

01:29:06   A VA mover.

01:29:07   Yeah, and conflict catcher.

01:29:09   Right?

01:29:10   Yeah, conflict catcher.

01:29:11   Whatever happened—

01:29:13   Maybe a binary search that lets you find that extension that was causing you pain.

01:29:18   What was his name?

01:29:19   Jeff. He's now—he's still at Apple, still running all of iTunes.

01:29:23   Jeff Robbins. Jeff Robbins.

01:29:25   I always forget if he has an S or a Jeff Robbins.

01:29:28   Rob and—yeah, they were the ones, also the ones that did the sound jam.

01:29:34   Yeah, but conflict catcher was a way to get out of that mess,

01:29:37   where it would help you find two extensions that conflicted with each other. Anyway,

01:29:43   where I'm going with this, though, is I think what we who are griping about the upper

01:29:51   bounds of power usage on iPadOS. What we're imagining is some way to make the interface

01:29:59   scale and not take anything away from the basic use of just single app at a time,

01:30:07   treat it like a big phone, and keep it as simple as possible, and as including the inability to

01:30:16   shoot yourself in the foot. iPadOS doesn't let a typical user open up the resources inside their

01:30:21   applications folder. It doesn't let you trash files you shouldn't be allowed to trash to keep

01:30:26   the system running. That you could keep that entry level, which is even more easily understood and

01:30:34   more comforting in terms of the peace of mind. I do think that this is an under—amongst nerds—under

01:30:44   valued aspect of the appeal of iPads and iPhones, and even Android phones, honestly, is the way

01:30:50   that they allow people to feel very confident that they can't mess their device up.

01:30:55   Yeah, you're not going to break anything. And that's one of those kind of those unseen features

01:30:59   that we were talking about earlier, right? Things aren't going to break is a huge feature.

01:31:04   And it's even with the best of intentions. I don't want to, you know, I'll just throw Norton

01:31:09   under the bus. But if you're a PC user, and you're like, I was everybody keeps telling me I should

01:31:14   worry about viruses, I should install Norton. All right, I'm going to install Norton. And you're not

01:31:20   getting scammed. You've gotten the official Norton website, the official Norton download,

01:31:25   and you've run the official installer for Norton utilities, or whatever the Norton antivirus,

01:31:31   whatever it is. You've done what you're supposed to do to install it. But now you've got this thing

01:31:37   running. And maybe it's now it's like taking 15% of your CPU all the time, because it's monitoring

01:31:44   all this stuff. And now your battery life is 20% worse than it was before or your computer never

01:31:50   really gets your laptop never gets cool. It's always maybe the fans aren't on. But it's always

01:31:55   warm. And it didn't used to be that way. Things happen like that. Remember the thing a couple

01:32:01   years ago, Lauren Brikter had it was like Chrome is bad, right? And there was this thing going on

01:32:06   it Lauren Brikter, one of the most expert computer programmers I've ever met certainly knows.

01:32:13   Yeah, brilliant guy. And he couldn't figure it out. Invent, he created Tweety,

01:32:18   invented the pull to refresh gesture that's ubiquitous and all touch flow on the first

01:32:24   iPhone, right? While he worked at Apple, right? It did cover flow, really pretty stuff. And he

01:32:29   figured out that if you had Chrome installed on a Mac, some number of people had this background

01:32:36   process that was eating up gobs of RAM in the window manager. And nobody could figure out what

01:32:42   was causing it. But if you completely uninstalled Chrome and logged out and log back in the problem

01:32:48   went away. And so something something was going on there. Nobody could figure it out. I it's I've

01:32:54   looked into it every couple months since I make a note here to link to the Chrome is bad.com.

01:32:58   But that could never happen on iPad OS, right? There is no way for Chrome or any app that you

01:33:05   go through the App Store to do something in the background that would do that that would

01:33:12   consume a mysterious 20% of your CPU any at all times, or make the window manager use three times

01:33:18   more RAM than it's supposed to, even when you're not running Chrome. It just doesn't happen.

01:33:23   Tim Cynova That's what I was saying earlier about that the background

01:33:26   processing, it's a hard problem, because it's a double edged sword, right? Sometimes in the case

01:33:31   of Final Cut Pro, you absolutely need it. Sometimes in the case of Google Chrome, you

01:33:36   absolutely don't. So, so I just have this nagging feeling, we all want Apple to come up with more

01:33:46   ways for iPad OS to scale to power users usage without getting in the way of those things.

01:33:52   And we, I have this intuitive sense that it must be possible. I don't know what the answers are.

01:33:59   I'm not I know, I'm more of a critic than the designer. Like I don't have a detailed spec for

01:34:08   how to make an iPad OS 18 that makes power users happy in Mac like user ways. I don't. But I'd know

01:34:16   it if I see it. And I can't help but feel that it's possible. And that Apple just hasn't pursued it.

01:34:23   But maybe I'm wrong, right? Well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a system that is as simple at the simple

01:34:32   entry level as iPad OS is, maybe it can't scale that far. Because nobody, to date, no company has

01:34:40   come up with such a system, in my opinion. And they're, they're, they're a bit painted into

01:34:47   the corner right now in a couple of different ways. This, this doing more than one thing at

01:34:54   a time, running things in the background, that on Vision OS is going to be an issue as well.

01:34:59   Visual OS adopts a lot of the iPad mechanisms internally. People calling it the iPad with

01:35:08   the face are not far off as far as from a technical point of view. Right now, obviously,

01:35:14   Apple wants it to go beyond that. But again, they have some limitations there.

01:35:19   They also have some resource issues, right? Because a lot of developers are, that were working

01:35:25   on iPad are now working on Vision OS. So, how are you going to, you got to kind of think about this

01:35:33   in a, in a, from a higher level. These, these, these are needs that are going to start existing

01:35:40   across a lot of different platforms, a lot of different devices. So, how do you deal with that

01:35:45   problem? And again, the security on on Vision OS is just as important as it is on other platforms,

01:35:53   in fact, apps probably more so, because you're actually doing a lot more biometrics on that.

01:36:00   Pete Lumbly Yeah, well, and there's some, yeah, and there's some,

01:36:02   some real time aspects that are important safety wise, right? Like some of the, they'll swear up.

01:36:09   You can literally get sick with a vision.

01:36:11   Pete Lumbly Or, or you could walk into a wall, right? I mean,

01:36:14   you know, like, so, so like the ability for the real time part of the operating system to be

01:36:19   constantly looking for obstacles in your way that you might be inadvertent, you know, walk into a

01:36:25   wall, walk into a door.

01:36:26   Pete Lumbly Do a Final Cut Pro export and then you're walking off the deck,

01:36:31   tripping and breaking your ankle.

01:36:34   Pete Lumbly But it is I don't know, maybe Vision OS gives me some optimism on this because it is

01:36:40   and I emphasize this in the last episode too, like the fact that Vision OS 1.0 shipped with the Mac

01:36:45   display app says something about Apple's okay, we want you to be able to do these things on this

01:36:54   device that you can only do on a Mac, here's a way to do it. And I do think it would be a lot cooler

01:37:00   and better if it was completely virtualized within vision OS so that you don't need a $2,000 MacBook

01:37:08   in addition to your $4,000.

01:37:10   Pete Lumbly And someplace to put it too, right? You're on the airplane,

01:37:13   like a wordy, put the MacBook.

01:37:14   Pete Lumbly Like just having a little magic keyboard and trackpad is a lot less to travel

01:37:18   with than even a MacBook Air. The other thing though, that gives me like, hey, maybe Vision

01:37:24   OS will help iPad OS is the fact that it is a windowing system, not a screen system. And you

01:37:30   can have windows all around you. And your notes is open, mail is open, safaris open, you could be

01:37:37   watching a movie and a window that's behind them all because you're not really paying that much

01:37:41   attention to it. But it's really big. And all of those windows are updating all the time. And

01:37:46   they're ready for you. As soon as you stare at them, they're accepting your input. So hopefully,

01:37:51   they're inching towards that. I just wonder, though, I just worry that we've got this vague

01:37:56   feeling that Apple can anybody could make a system that scales from the simplest of iPad use cases

01:38:02   all the way to Mac power level, and they just haven't done it yet. I could see it both ways

01:38:08   where maybe something that is that simple just has an upper limit on how much it can scale

01:38:14   complexity wise before you start losing some stuff at that simple end. Or maybe it is the problem of

01:38:23   a company. When all of these products come from the same company, Apple, it's easy for them to

01:38:30   ignore the iPad power usage upper limits when they the Mac is right there. And everybody at Apple

01:38:37   already has a Mac and the cynical Tim Cook, Luca mindset of, "Hey, if the worst case scenario is

01:38:44   all these people buy an iPad and a MacBook, that's pretty good for our quarterly." You know,

01:38:49   John "Slick" Baum: There's no financial incentive for Apple to do this, really.

01:38:53   Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't make, of course, Apple's not going to spin the iPad

01:38:59   off into a subsidiary like FileMaker. But if they did, you can't help but think that it would

01:39:08   quickly gain capabilities, right? That if they said hardware and software wise, we're going to

01:39:17   have this division of 100 hardware engineers and 100 software engineers, I don't know what the head

01:39:22   count would be. But all you guys are going to do is make the iPad as great as you possibly can.

01:39:28   And you're on your own. And you don't have to answer to the same people who are making the Mac

01:39:33   and the iPhone and the watch and TV and the Vision OS. Just go make the iPad, you're the iPad company,

01:39:39   go make it awesome. I think that it would be, it would gain, it would gain Mac like power usage

01:39:48   features quickly, and not in a way that means that it's a cynical decision not to have done it so far,

01:39:57   just that it never bubbles up to the top priority at Apple because there's always something else.

01:40:02   John "Slick" Baum: Again, it's the resources and priority that really is the root of the problem

01:40:08   here. And that how long has the iPad been out, right? When did we first get our iPad?

01:40:13   Pete Liddell 29.10, 14 years.

01:40:16   John "Slick" Baum Yeah. And when did they start getting A-series chips

01:40:21   and start having multiple processors and all the good stuff, more memory. And it's still kind of

01:40:28   the same device, right? Yes, they took the shot at Stage Manager, which a lot of people love and a

01:40:35   lot of people hate. So that was kind of a, that wasn't a clear win in my mind.

01:40:42   Pete Liddell 29.10

01:40:43   Did you see Quinn Nelson's video where he tries to, I'm putting this in the show notes,

01:40:50   Quinn Nelson Stage Manager. I keep meaning that was excellent, short evisceration.

01:40:57   John "Slick" Baum Let's put it, let's call it that.

01:40:59   Pete Liddell 29.10 And the gist was, Quinn Nelson has a new iPad Pro,

01:41:03   he's working, I don't know if it's even out, maybe his full video review is out yet, but he's

01:41:07   obviously testing it, seeing how it works to make a big YouTube video with his review. And he hooked

01:41:13   it up to his studio display. And he was trying to figure out how to make a new window in mail open

01:41:19   on the display. John "Slick" Baum And two windows open on the same app.

01:41:23   Pete Liddell 29.10 Yeah, I have two windows open on two different

01:41:25   displays from the same app. And it just, it really, it was not painful to watch.

01:41:31   It's really painful from a guy who is a longtime Mac and iOS user who probably, you know,

01:41:39   who I think was making good guesses along the way, like, oh, I'll go to the three dot menu.

01:41:44   John "Slick" Baum That's the thing that was uncomfortable for me,

01:41:46   is he was doing the exact same things I would have done. Right? I would have, that's, oh, yeah,

01:41:50   that's good thing. Try that. Try that. Oh. Pete Liddell

01:41:55   And that's, I don't know, it just feels like maybe Apple has designed its way into a corner

01:42:00   with the concept for iPadOS, that it's just, you know, that it did.

01:42:06   John "Slick" Baum That's why, that's why people like me are

01:42:08   saying, let's just say, hey, let's keep iPad the way it is, and maybe grow it a little bit with

01:42:15   Stage Manager and other initiatives, things that let more things run in the background more easily,

01:42:21   solve the Final Cut Pro problem. But then also, hey, let's look, step back and look at this thing

01:42:26   as a Swiss Army knife. This is a, it literally is a device in the middle of Apple's ecosystem.

01:42:34   It's above the iPhone and below the Mac. It's kind of in between those two things, physically

01:42:40   and functionally. You can run iPhone apps on your iPad, no problem. Well, let's start looking at the

01:42:49   other direction and not have it. I think your idea of making it something developer-centric

01:42:54   or behind a constraint like, oh, you got to have a keyboard, you got to have a pointing device.

01:43:00   Pete Liddell Or you got to be in Stage Manager mode, right?

01:43:02   John "Slick" Baum Or something.

01:43:03   Pete Liddell I kind of feel like, again, it's not a simple,

01:43:06   oh, it's one sentence from John Gruber and it solved all of Stage Manager's problems.

01:43:12   It's not like that. But I do kind of feel they missed an opportunity of saying, okay,

01:43:18   once they were committed to going down the path of Stage Manager, that they could have used that

01:43:23   as the dividing line between simple mode and complex mode. And once you're in, like, if you

01:43:29   never wanted to switch, it's a switch, right? It's off by default, right? It's obviously a,

01:43:34   this is, you got to go enable this. John Gruber Right. And I just feel like once you enabled that

01:43:39   switch, it should have enabled something that was much, much, much more akin to using a Mac

01:43:44   with Windows you drag around and maybe even have a menu bar at the top. And once you turn Stage

01:43:49   Manager off, that all goes away and it goes back to being full screen tiled iPad apps. I don't know.

01:43:57   All right, let me take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor of the show. And it is our

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01:47:04   What do you think? I think they've got a little bit of AI religion. Yeah. It's how's this gonna

01:47:12   play out? I mean, Apple's been using models for a long time, right? But they never call them.

01:47:21   Think about how much – It's like every time you get a stand notification on your Apple Watch,

01:47:28   right? And you stand up, how does it know that you stood up? It's got some sort of model that

01:47:32   they've trained with people standing up. Same thing with walking and running and all these

01:47:38   different activities. Recognizing pets in your photos or your kids or whatever. It's all over

01:47:45   the place. Are they gonna just rebrand that stuff and say, "Oh, now it's like Apple magic pets?"

01:47:52   Or what? I could be misremembering what else they said. But when they first introduced the

01:48:00   neural engine, which now we call NPUs, but the third part of the third processing unit on a

01:48:07   system on a chip. You got your CPU, your GPU, and now your NPU, which Apple calls a neural engine.

01:48:12   I seem to recall the first times they were talking about it and these ridiculous number of trillions

01:48:18   of operations per second that it can perform was always in the context of the camera app. It's like,

01:48:23   "Oh, you just hit a button in the camera app." But literally a billion little models were run

01:48:28   to sample the pixels and to do the white balance and all of this stuff. And it happens in the blink

01:48:34   of an eye. You don't notice as far as you're concerned, as soon as you hit the button for

01:48:39   the shutter in the camera app, the picture appeared in your camera roll. But like the

01:48:43   neural engine did all of this stuff to make the noise go away, to make the colors pop,

01:48:49   to make the white balance right. And they just didn't call it AI.

01:48:52   Tim Cynova Right. And they've been releasing models,

01:48:56   you know, as open source and they're clearly working on things. Are they gonna walk down the

01:49:03   Google path where you put it at the top of the page and call it AI overview? That doesn't sound

01:49:09   very Apple-like to me, right? They may call it something like Apple smarts, Apple intelligence,

01:49:14   you know, as for things that help you. Or assistant.

01:49:18   Darrell Bock I think our friend,

01:49:19   I think our friend's jock it has been banging the drum that he wants them to call it.

01:49:23   Tim Cynova Apple intelligence.

01:49:24   Tim Cynova Yeah.

01:49:24   Darrell Bock Apple intelligence.

01:49:24   Tim Cynova That's where I first heard it, yeah.

01:49:26   Darrell Bock And then they can call it AI,

01:49:28   but it's not just AI, it's Apple intelligence.

01:49:30   Tim Cynova Right.

01:49:30   Tim Cynova Right? Everybody has regular AI,

01:49:33   which is artificial.

01:49:34   Darrell Bock Yeah, exactly.

01:49:36   Tim Cynova Only Apple has Apple intelligence.

01:49:37   Tim Cynova Right.

01:49:38   Tim Cynova I kind of feel like,

01:49:41   it's the way that hype cycles work and tech goes through them. It's why tech is tech. Computer

01:49:49   tech evolves quickly. It's why I love my job. It's why I love computers. But hype cycles come,

01:49:58   hype cycles go, some hit and some don't, right? A couple years ago, it was cryptocurrency, right?

01:50:07   That was the hype cycle. I never, I thought all along this seems like a Ponzi scheme.

01:50:12   And I personally don't.

01:50:14   Darrell Bock And it was.

01:50:15   Tim Cynova Well, it was. I can't say that I don't know

01:50:18   people who got into it. But I don't know, none of my close friends really kind of fell for it as like

01:50:23   the next big thing. But it also, it becomes a thing, these hype cycles, and the cryptocurrency

01:50:30   is a perfect example of it, where in addition to the nerds who might buy into it and start hyping

01:50:36   it up, you get the CNBC crowd, right? The Bloomberg crowd, where investors are like,

01:50:43   "Is this the next big thing?" Right? Because sometimes—

01:50:45   Tim Cynova My sister-in-law asked me,

01:50:47   "Should I invest in Bitcoin?" Right?

01:50:49   Tim Cynova You know, the worldwide—

01:50:51   Tim Cynova Let me explain something to you.

01:50:53   Tim Cynova No, no, the answer is no. But I remember,

01:50:56   I've worked, I had a job in college, one of my internships was working at a company on the

01:51:03   Philadelphia Stock Exchange, doing like the IT work for their computer. So I had nothing to do

01:51:08   with the actual trading. But I was there to make the computers work. And it was a fun place to work.

01:51:14   It was a nice company. But I was there by coincidence, the day, it was a work day,

01:51:19   the day of the Netscape IPO, which was a very memorable, big IPO. And nobody asked my opinion,

01:51:25   but I remember thinking at the time, "This is that's probably a good one." I don't know if

01:51:28   Netscape is going to be here for decades to come. But they're going to be here for years to come,

01:51:34   right? Like this, this web is a real thing. And Netscape does make the best browser. This whole

01:51:40   web thing is for real. And—

01:51:42   Tim Cynova There, there, yeah.

01:51:43   Tim Cynova Right. And of course,

01:51:44   everybody thinks of dot-com as a bubble that burst. And it did to some degree, but for the

01:51:49   most part after it burst, we're still left with the modern web, which is a huge thing. It was,

01:51:54   the hype was real. And companies like Google and Amazon that couldn't have existed before the web

01:52:00   are now among the big meta, right? Amongst the bigger companies, there's, who, Microsoft and

01:52:07   Apple predate the web and are still around. And then there's meta, Amazon, Google, who am I missing?

01:52:15   You could put Netflix in there maybe as a media company. And again, even the old Netflix that was

01:52:20   mailing disks to people was the web, right? It was like you'd go to the web to get the actual

01:52:25   disks sent to you in the mail. The web was a real hype cycle. AI feels more like, a lot more like

01:52:33   the web. The current AI moment of LLMs feels more like the web than cryptocurrency than it, which I

01:52:40   thought was a scam. But it also, to me, I don't think it's as revolutionary as the web, right?

01:52:47   I don't think—

01:52:48   David Tompa Yeah, and people are having trouble figuring out what it is. It's, in early days of

01:52:53   the web, you got some really crazy things, you know, that some of these original, the original

01:52:59   fact that dot com bust was because a lot of these dumb ideas just didn't go anywhere, and they kind

01:53:05   of didn't go anywhere at the same time, so it all fell apart. AI, yeah, there are some things I can

01:53:12   see it being really useful at. And then there are other things that just, yeah, that I've got no

01:53:18   need for that.

01:53:19   Darrell Bock Hints that there's going to be AI, that it's, they're very clearly signaling,

01:53:25   we're going to have a lot to say. Tim Cook literally, I think, said the words, "We're going

01:53:29   to have a lot more to say about AI soon." He couldn't even bring himself to say @WWDC because

01:53:35   he's @Apple, but everybody knew what he meant last month at the quarterly finance call that it meant

01:53:41   WWDC. But I can't help but think that that's sort of placating and that the unreasonable expectation,

01:53:48   both from the nerds and from the CNBC Bloomberg investor crowd, is they want revolution. They

01:53:57   want it to 90, the WWDC keynote starts at 10am and by 1130am, they want an entirely new way of

01:54:09   using the iPhone, the entire way you use your iPhone, all new. It's, it's a totally new,

01:54:16   all based on AI and LLMs and the iPhone as you knew it is dead and here's the new iPhone.

01:54:21   And instead, what we're going to get is iOS 18, which is going to be a nice, here's, here's a

01:54:26   bunch of nice features.

01:54:27   Tim Cook Incremental improvements. Yeah, it's like that in my mind is how things play out. It's like

01:54:32   AI can be used to make a lot of nice incremental improvements, cleaning up photos, right? Do using

01:54:38   a little fine touch of generative AI on images to make photos look nicer. Right? Yeah, that's,

01:54:47   it's not, it's not creating a new image. It's helping you with an image that you already have.

01:54:54   A big difference there. I don't see the, oh, photos can now generate photos based upon

01:55:02   words that you type in. I, I just think it's unrealistic. And I think it's probably a bad

01:55:10   idea. I don't think there is an LLM backed idea for revolutionizing the way we use our phones.

01:55:18   I just don't, I see it. The practical applications of this technology are evolutionary and are

01:55:25   evolutionary in very good useful ways. I mean, it is AI.

01:55:32   I've seen the praises all the time. And just this week, it surfaced a couple of photos I haven't

01:55:37   seen in 20 years, but the photo widget on my iPhone, just picking photos of the day that it

01:55:43   thinks I might want to see from my library of 20 years of digital photos. It does an amazing job.

01:55:49   They're not, it's not just a random, a random picture. They're picking, using AI to sort of

01:55:55   pick photos of people. It knows that I know in poses and locations that look visually interesting

01:56:03   and AI, the language model can sort of figure out that looks like a happy person in a, on a sunny

01:56:09   beach. I bet that somebody would like to see this photo today. And nobody's head, nobody's mind is

01:56:16   blown by these features. And as they get better, like last year's autocorrect improvements,

01:56:21   which really did get a lot better for me. Nobody's mind is blown by the fact that the next two words

01:56:27   of my email, oh yeah, those are the two words I was going to type space, space, save myself.

01:56:32   The thing, the thing that a lot of people forget is that Apple loves things that are delightful,

01:56:37   right? That whole surfacing old photos delights both me and my wife, right? Sometimes it's a pet.

01:56:44   Sometimes it's a vacation. Sometimes it's just, we're doing something goofy together.

01:56:50   It's just, it's a delightful moment. And we talk about it, right? It initiates conversations.

01:56:56   It augments our lives. It's, I mean, one of the things I would love to see AI

01:57:05   augment is Siri. Just, that's a weak point. And everybody knows it, right? Do you know anybody

01:57:17   who says, oh, Siri's great. There's not many people in that. And they sidestep it so many

01:57:25   times. They start off at WWC with, hey, we've made improvements to Siri. Her voice is now better.

01:57:30   So what? Well, and you know what's funny though? And I feel like that whole Scarlett

01:57:35   Johansson thing kind of, you know, at a certain point making the voice better, I'm not sure that

01:57:44   it is better, right? I'm not sure that it is better to have your voice sound indistinguishable

01:57:49   from a human. I kind of, you know, I'm a Cooper, but I like, I thought like the how nine,

01:57:56   I can't do that, Dave. Yeah. I, but I kind of want my computer to talk like that. Not just,

01:58:01   doesn't have to be the exact actor, but I like it being a little computery. I think C3PO kind of got

01:58:08   that. C3PO had a lot of personality, but it still sounded like a robot. Well, so Siri has to improve

01:58:17   and I don't know if the proof will be in the pudding. I think one of the problems that Apple

01:58:21   has to grapple with there is context, right? These things, again, back to Daniel Jalka,

01:58:28   so often he talks about this Siri mistranscribing, prepare the dough as prepare to die. Well,

01:58:35   the part of the problem there – He makes pizza, so he's always making dough. Exactly. That's the

01:58:40   thing. He makes pizza all the time, right? And Siri doesn't know that, right? And in order for Siri

01:58:45   to know that, it's got to collect some information about him. And we both know how Apple feels about

01:58:50   collecting information about people, right? Where do they put it? Do they share with open AI? Do

01:58:56   they share with – and the way these models work, at least as far as I understand, you've got to

01:59:02   give them the real words, right? Because they're doing a prediction based upon a sequence of tokens

01:59:10   that are basically words that say, "Okay, here's what to expect," right? Prepare the dough makes

01:59:19   more sense for somebody who has pizza in their context than Arnold Schwarzenegger in their context.

01:59:25   Or me, who doesn't make pizza and hasn't made anything out of dough in a very long time.

01:59:31   It – I might be preparing to die more likely than preparing to dough. I don't know. I get it.

01:59:41   Siri has to improve. I'm not quite sure how that plays out. I do think everybody is sort of

01:59:47   whistling past the enormous scaling problems Apple faces by adding anything to iOS 18.

01:59:54   Where I think open AI has something like 200 million users and iOS has 1.8 billion.

02:00:02   And most people, certainly like 70-some percent upgrade to the new OS by the end of the year.

02:00:10   So they're going to be using these features like if there is a new and improved Siri,

02:00:15   can they get away? Would they, to get past the scaling issues, say that

02:00:22   Siri Plus is something that you only get when you have an Apple One subscription with your iCloud

02:00:27   account and you have to pay an extra $5 a month to get Siri Plus? I mean, I don't know. It seems like

02:00:35   – But then it's, "Okay, well, I've got Siri regular and it's just absolute junk."

02:00:41   Yeah, exactly.

02:00:42   "Why am I not getting this premium experience as a part of my $1,000 phone purchase?"

02:00:48   Right. Siri has, again, is also 2010, 2011. It was like right when – I think it was right

02:00:56   before Steve Jobs died in 2011 was the Siri – first phone with Siri. And I think it's fair

02:01:05   to say I've never been as big a hater on Siri as most people. I use it. I've never given up.

02:01:11   But I think even as somebody who's on the spectrum of tech critics kind of favorably –

02:01:19   I view Siri more favorably than most people. I still say it clearly has never lived up to its

02:01:26   promise, right? At no point since Siri debuted has it ever lived up to its promise. And at the

02:01:34   moment, it's further behind its promise than ever before because we've all played with ChatGPT and

02:01:42   these similar tools, which do something similar – conversation, chat versus audio, although you

02:01:49   can now talk to these things too, ChatGPT. And it maintains context and it doesn't make so many

02:01:55   boneheaded mistakes. I mean, there's JaoKits prepare the dough that it just doesn't understand

02:02:00   his accent or whatever. There's Nili Patel who had the comic. He lives in New York and asked

02:02:06   the weather in London and it gave him the temperature in London, Ontario, which –

02:02:11   Again, context.

02:02:12   No human being would ever – you can either A, ask which London or B, go to the real London over in

02:02:19   the United Kingdom. There's only – they're the only two things to do. And a human being would know

02:02:24   the answer to that. A human being would have – if you have a personal assistant who's a human being,

02:02:30   they're probably going to know if you mean London, England.

02:02:33   Just knowing that phrase, right? I'm thinking, yeah, he's planning a trip. He's an editor at

02:02:39   The Verge. He's probably going over to the UK for some sort of thing and he wants to know what

02:02:45   the weather is, right? You build this story in your head, which LLMs to some degree do that.

02:02:53   They're building a pre-cooked story, but they're doing something along those lines.

02:02:59   Do you want to let Siri know that you're in New York?

02:03:02   Probably.

02:03:04   Yeah, well –

02:03:04   Are there some security issues there? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

02:03:08   And I also think that this all gets whistled past at the moment. Gurman's been reporting – you know,

02:03:13   everybody knows they want to do as much locally as they can. You don't need to be Mark Gurman

02:03:18   to know that Apple would prefer to do as much processing locally on device as possible.

02:03:23   And that they might have a partnership with OpenAI, they might have one with Google,

02:03:27   they might have one with both. Who knows how this is going to work? But that's a huge but.

02:03:32   And the idea that Gurman has described it is if it's sufficiently complex, it'll go to the cloud,

02:03:38   and if it's simple, it'll stay on device. But you, the user, need to know that in some ways,

02:03:43   right? If it's your information.

02:03:46   It's people freaked out when they added touch ID. And then they freaked out again when it was face

02:03:51   ID because their face is even more sensitive naturally. Of course, the initial knee-jerk,

02:03:57   "Whoa, whoa, what do you mean you're scanning my face?" is the right attitude for everybody to have

02:04:02   had. But then you read about the way it works, and it never, ever, ever leaves the device, and it's

02:04:07   always on the secure enclave. And the secure enclave has white papers describing just how

02:04:12   secure it is that a thief can pick, can steal your phone and never get access to the secure enclave

02:04:20   without a trillion years of math or something like that, right? That's not true if it's like,

02:04:28   "Oh, who knows if you're complex?" If, you know, you just asked your voice assistant to solve a

02:04:34   math problem. You don't know if that's easy or hard, and if the cloud is busy, and which cloud

02:04:40   it's going to, and are they building up the initial prompt with a hidden prompt to open AI that says,

02:04:49   "You are Siri, the voice assistant on an iPhone, and this iPhone belongs to Craig Hockenberry."

02:04:56   He is—

02:04:56   Tim Cynova Right. He lives in this. He likes making pizza.

02:04:59   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:04:59   David Erickson He's spent the last 40 years as a professional software developer, and he enjoys

02:05:04   surfing or swimming.

02:05:06   Tim Cynova That's what I was saying. It's like this information is going off your

02:05:10   device. It's—

02:05:10   David Erickson Right.

02:05:11   Tim Cynova And it's personally identifying information.

02:05:14   David Erickson Right.

02:05:15   Tim Cynova All over. And—

02:05:17   David Erickson Right.

02:05:17   Tim Cynova Another thing that's important is that people are super sensitive to this stuff right now.

02:05:21   David Erickson Yeah. More sensitive than ever before.

02:05:22   Tim Cynova Because, I mean, look at the thing with Slack, right? The, "Oh, we're going to be

02:05:25   collecting information from you." And they're probably just training some ML models that they

02:05:32   help you find emojis or whatever Slack is doing. It's probably not that critical of data, but they

02:05:39   needed to say this, right? This is just part of their corporate requirements. And people are just

02:05:44   like, "Oh, my God." And if Apple does that, right? And Apple's going to do it usually without

02:05:54   explaining a lot of the technical details because they know their market, right? And most of the

02:05:58   people are going to—their eyes are going to glaze over it at the technical details, and they just,

02:06:03   you know, "Oh, AI good. Oh, AI bad." Right? It's really that's their knowledge of it.

02:06:08   David Erickson I've set my own expectations such that I think I might come away with what I think

02:06:18   of as—the last few years of WWDCs, I think Apple's been on a good run of having enough new features

02:06:28   to feel like, "Yeah, that's another good year's work for iOS 17 and Mac OS 14," or whatever number

02:06:33   we're up to. And I feel like they've done a really good job of rolling them out throughout the year

02:06:40   and having some that don't even appear till springtime, like, "We just got some new features

02:06:45   a couple weeks ago." I feel like they've done a good job of that. I feel like it's going to be

02:06:50   another typical year like that, not revolutionary. And so many people are going to come away from

02:06:56   that keynote thinking that's a total fail. This was supposed to be like the original introduction

02:07:03   of the iPhone. "Oh, you're never going to use a phone the same way again. You're never going to

02:07:06   use your iPhone the same way again because of AI, and that's not going to happen." And I don't think

02:07:11   it could happen. I don't think it should happen. I don't even—

02:07:13   David Buehler iPhone was a slow roll. People forget the first version of the iPhone, right?

02:07:17   No installable apps, no copy and paste, no—

02:07:23   David Erickson One carrier.

02:07:24   David Buehler Yeah, exactly. One carrier at Edge. No—did the camera do video? I don't even remember.

02:07:31   David Erickson No video. No video.

02:07:32   David Buehler No video on the camera, just stills, right. So, yeah, the iPhone, we look back on it,

02:07:38   "Oh, that was a transformative moment." No, it was the beginning of a transformative moment.

02:07:42   And if I think if Apple does something with AI now, it's the beginning of another transformative

02:07:47   moment for them. David Erickson

02:07:49   And I don't know—I think it's a very challenging keynote for Apple to write and to craft the

02:07:55   narrative to try to—because I also don't think it's in Apple's nature to falsely hype something,

02:08:04   right? What they say about their products tend to be true, but I kind of feel like they need to

02:08:09   spin, for lack of a better verb, spin this in a way that convinces as many people as possible

02:08:16   that this is the right amount of AI, and this is on the cutting edge of AI. But yes,

02:08:23   all of iOS, macOS, iPadOS, they're all still familiar next year.

02:08:27   David Buehler Right. I could see this beginning as the beginning of kind of an AI branding moment

02:08:33   for them. They've already done some of this stuff, but they're not getting credit for it. And as a

02:08:38   stockholder, I'd like for them to get credit for AI because anything that has AI in the name right

02:08:44   now, it's a good thing for the stock market, right? I'd like my stock in Apple to go up.

02:08:50   But at the same time, I don't want them to just start throwing slop into my iPhone.

02:08:57   That no desire. And Google got burned by this, right? People are absolutely—and for good

02:09:05   reason. They're making fun of Google for just their own slop at the most valuable piece of

02:09:12   real estate on the internet. There's a chunk of slop. [Laughter]

02:09:16   Darrell Bock How many rocks a day should I eat?

02:09:20   David Buehler Yeah. The gasoline one. And the gasoline one was actually something I predicted

02:09:23   a long time ago, which was that AI was going to feed itself.

02:09:27   Darrell Bock Right.

02:09:28   David Buehler Right? The one with gasoline was like some AI had generated these recipes.

02:09:33   The little disclaimer at the bottom is these recipes are generated by AI. Don't try cooking

02:09:37   this without using common sense. And Google picked up on that and presented it as if it was the truth.

02:09:45   Darrell Bock Yeah. You really run into the

02:09:47   sorcerer's—Mickey Mouse sorcerer's apprentice problem of, "Oh, now the buckets are making more

02:09:53   buckets and AI being fed slop by another AI really is." And, you know, people are talking about that.

02:10:01   I mean, Nielai Patel had Sundar Pichai on his podcast, Decoder, after I/O and sort of broached

02:10:08   this topic of Google search, at least. Google's a bigger company with more products. But Google

02:10:14   search had a symbiotic relationship for 25 years with publishers of websites. It's the publishers

02:10:21   of websites who are making the content for Google to index and for people to want to find through

02:10:27   Google. And therefore, Google sending enough traffic out, there's an equilibrium of the right

02:10:35   amount. And if AI can just do it all, including people running content farms instead of even

02:10:42   hiring low-wage people to spit out these garbage articles, "Oh, just have ChatGPT spit them out,"

02:10:50   now the scale is effectively infinite, how many of these slop pages and sites you can generate.

02:10:56   And if Google is going to index them and just make the web a place where you just know you're

02:11:02   going to get slop, it hurts everybody, including Google itself, ultimately. Because then there's

02:11:09   no more web or very little good web for people to actually want to get to. It's very tricky.

02:11:17   John Greenewald Yeah, it's been declining for years.

02:11:19   Darrell Bock Right.

02:11:20   John Greenewald If you're looking for a product review,

02:11:23   God help you these days. In fact, if we need a product review, you and I will both go ask Marco

02:11:32   first. [Laughter]

02:11:34   John Greenewald It is. In some ways, we're back to where we were before the internet, where you just find your

02:11:39   friend who you think is the biggest expert on cars and say, "What do you think of this car?"

02:11:44   Darrell Bock Yeah. Oh, yeah, get this kind of coffee.

02:11:47   John Greenewald Yeah. And I guess there's rumors that Xcode is finally going to see, you know,

02:11:52   code completion. Have you used any kind of ChatGPT assistant with code completion?

02:11:58   John Greenewald I like coding too much. A lot of these tools are for people who don't like doing

02:12:04   certain things, right? They don't see the joy in crafting an image, so they use generative AI,

02:12:11   mid-journey or whatever, to create these images. And for me, the more interesting use case,

02:12:19   as far as Xcode is concerned, is to get some code that I haven't written and say, "Summarize what

02:12:27   this is doing to me. Help me understand this," which it can absolutely do. There may be some

02:12:35   cases where, yeah, write me some code, get me started with something here, but it's like Stack

02:12:42   Overflow, right? Anything I see on Stack Overflow, I have a great distrust for, because it's just a

02:12:48   lot of cases, just, "Oh, I got this working." You know, you don't necessarily understand why it's

02:12:53   working. And that's going to bite you in the ass down the road, right? And one of the reasons that

02:12:58   people love our products is because they work really well, and the reason they work well is

02:13:02   because we understand what they do. Pete: Yeah, everybody's gotten to a Stack Overflow page where

02:13:08   it's like, somebody asks a question, you're like, "Hey, that's kind of my question too. This is close

02:13:13   enough. What's the answer?" And there's a top answer, and you're like, "Huh, I don't know."

02:13:18   And then you scroll down a little bit more, and seven months later, there's an answer that,

02:13:23   because it came seven months later, didn't really get upvoted. But it's like, "Oh, the original

02:13:28   answer to this is actually wrong," or, "That's going to prove very slow." Here's what you…

02:13:32   John: Or, "It doesn't work in this case." Here's what you want to do.

02:13:35   Pete; Here's what you want to do. John; Somebody had implemented that and found out that it didn't

02:13:39   work in that case and fixed it, and that's, those are the ones that you look for. And is an AI going

02:13:45   to be able to look for that? Probably not. It's going to go for the top-rated one, right?

02:13:49   Pete; Yeah. I don't know. That's just where, more or less, where I guess I'll leave my WWDC

02:13:53   prediction. My prediction is that Apple does have a bunch of AI features, but I think that they're

02:13:59   going to come across to the hype crowd as… John; Oh, it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be

02:14:04   disappointing, for sure. Pete; Too simple. Too evolutionary. It's a dozen different ways that

02:14:09   are evolutionary. And if three or four of them hit each user, that's great. Three or four new features

02:14:15   for each user, which might be a different three or four features for someone who's an avid

02:14:20   photographer than for somebody who is a busy real estate person with a crazy, complicated calendar

02:14:28   that could use some AI sorting of their calendar. John; To summarize, you know, what's my week look

02:14:33   right? It's like, my calendar's got, it's okay Thursday, I'm doing a talk show. That's my event

02:14:39   for the day. Pete; Right. Which day this week would be a good one for me to have a long lunch?

02:14:43   John; Right. And some of these things, they're not impressive when you first hear about them,

02:14:50   right? So, last year it was like, okay, we can do pets now with the recognition stuff. And I was

02:14:55   like, yeah, okay, that's mildly interesting. And then the first time it's like, I wanted to go look

02:15:01   at a friend of mine's dog and it's tapped on that thing. It's like all these pictures of Perla. I was

02:15:08   like, oh, this is great. This is really awesome. Because she'd passed away, right? And I was like,

02:15:14   it was a very kind of emotional moment for me. Pete; One last question. The number one

02:15:22   LLM product people are familiar with is ChatGPT, which is a chat interface, right? This is what

02:15:28   people think of with LLM. And I think Germin, again, all of our rumors come from Mark Germin

02:15:34   these days. But it said it's unclear whether Apple's going to have a chat interface. Probably

02:15:40   not, that Apple's not comfortable with it. My question is, if you really, and it gets to like,

02:15:45   where maybe Germin isn't that great at thinking like a designer. But like, where would this chat

02:15:53   interface go? Like, where would they put it? Like, when you talk to Siri, you don't get a transcript.

02:16:00   And even if you did, there's no Siri app that you go to that would show a transcript. The only app

02:16:06   they have that could, I think, fit a ChatGPT-style interface would be iMessage, right? Where,

02:16:13   what if they add the ability to chat at Siri in iMessage? But is that really a good idea? Does

02:16:22   that really what people think of? Did people want that in iMessage that you're chatting for a robot?

02:16:27   **Matt Stauffer** Can you add her to a group chat?

02:16:29   **Beserat Debebe** Well, at Wavelength, the startup I'm advising, we have that where we've added AI,

02:16:35   and you can make, you know, like a fake Don Rickles or something, which of course is where I

02:16:40   went. But we're not iMessage, right? We're, it's a small startup, and we could do something like

02:16:46   that. And it's sort of a novelty to drop bleeding edge users into it. I don't know that that's

02:16:52   appropriate for a group chat. Definitely. **Matt Stauffer** Well, as far as UI, you know,

02:16:57   does it go in like Spotlight? Or are you searching for stuff, right? Because sometimes

02:17:01   it's chat, and sometimes you're asking questions, it falls between the messages and Spotlight.

02:17:10   Maybe it's heavily weighted towards one and one instance and heavily weighted towards another and

02:17:14   another instance. So you're gonna put it in more than one place, that'd be dumb.

02:17:19   **Beserat Debebe** Yeah, yeah.

02:17:21   **Matt Stauffer** So yeah, I'm sure they're thinking about it. I mean, we're not the first

02:17:25   two people to wonder that. **Beserat Debebe** Well, we'll find out soon. Let me thank you for

02:17:33   your time. People can find you on social media. What's the best one? Probably Mastodon, right?

02:17:39   **Matt Stauffer** Mastodon. Yeah, Mastodon. That's social, Chalkenberry.

02:17:42   **Beserat Debebe** And yeah, just search for Chalkenberry and you'll find them, right?

02:17:47   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah.

02:17:47   **Beserat Debebe** Icon factory, makers of numerous fine products. We talked about iPulse,

02:17:53   System Monitor for both Mac and iOS, believe it or not. And of course, Linnea, which I've

02:17:58   been a fan of, but apparently only learned how to pronounce today.

02:18:01   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, well, the guys on ATP have the same problem, so you're not alone.

02:18:05   **Beserat Debebe** I feel like I've been on a good run lately of not mispronouncing

02:18:10   words or product names.

02:18:11   **Matt Stauffer** We're working on Tapestry now, which is that Kickstarter for the

02:18:15   Universal Timeline, which I'm happy with how things are going. I'll just put it that way.

02:18:19   You don't want to hype it too much, but me saying I'm happy with the way things are going,

02:18:25   that's a good indicator.

02:18:27   **Beserat Debebe** It says a lot to me. Yeah, was that the secret project that you wanted to

02:18:30   keep working on while you had your iPad?

02:18:32   **Matt Stauffer** Yes.

02:18:34   **Beserat Debebebe** Did I just coax you into things?

02:18:37   **Matt Stauffer** No, no, no, no. It's one of those things.

02:18:40   **Beserat Debebebe** But that's what I'm hearing. I know that feeling,

02:18:43   that feeling where it's like, "Hey, this is clicking."

02:18:45   **Matt Stauffer** It's an itch.

02:18:46   **Beserat Debebebe** And I want to keep this. It's rolling in a good way,

02:18:50   and I want to keep it rolling.

02:18:51   **Matt Stauffer** For me, software development is something that never stops. I mean,

02:18:56   I can be lying in bed, cooking dinner. It's constantly processing, along with other things.

02:19:04   That's not all I think about, but there's this kind of a background signal there that's,

02:19:08   "What am I working on?" So, yeah.

02:19:10   **Beserat Debebebe** What's the end of the... I'm drawing a blank on the name. It's Wallaby?

02:19:16   **Matt Stauffer** Wallaroo.

02:19:18   **Beserat Debebebe** Wallaroo. Wallaroo, like kangaroo,

02:19:20   which is a cool new app that you guys have made, and with nice rewards for your Patreon.

02:19:26   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, one of the rewards we gave the Patreon backers was a year subscription

02:19:32   to Wallaroo.

02:19:33   **Beserat Debebebe** Right, which is a really, really fun little app that you guys have... Well,

02:19:39   more or less you've done what I was hoping Apple would do with Vision Pro content,

02:19:42   which is just every month there's a couple of new wallpapers, and there's always...

02:19:45   **Matt Stauffer** We do them weekly. Yeah.

02:19:46   And we have a schedule of we've got to do a new release every week. So, yeah. It's nice that way,

02:19:55   too, because it's like when there's some sort of event, like a new movie or something. It's like

02:20:00   when the new version of when the latest episode of Dune came out, we released a bunch of really

02:20:05   nice Dune wallpapers. And then there's a new Bob's Burgers episode coming out. So, we're doing Bob's

02:20:13   Burgers wallpapers.

02:20:14   **Beserat Debebebe** It takes me back to the old days of icon factory, when it really was mostly

02:20:19   icons, and you guys would do like an icon... Like, "Oh, they're going to make the first Star Trek

02:20:25   movie in 15 years. Here's a pack of classic Star Trek TV icons."

02:20:30   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, we're going to have a WWDC wallpaper in the next week or two.

02:20:34   **Beserat Debebebe** People can just stand by for that.

02:20:37   **Matt Stauffer** Get in the mood.

02:20:37   **Beserat Debebebe** I will also thank our sponsors of the show. They were Squarespace,

02:20:42   where you can build your own website and all sorts of other stuff. Nuts.com, where you can

02:20:48   dock up on all the nuts and snacking stuff you could possibly want. And Trade Coffee,

02:20:54   where you can subscribe to get world-class coffee delivered fresh to your house. Thank you, Craig.

02:21:01   **Matt Stauffer** Yep. Thank you, John.