514: European Beard


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 514 for May 27th, 2024. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:17   Squarespace, Vitaly and Ladder. My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason!

00:00:23   Hi, Mike! How are you? I'm doing fine. I'm traveling for the long holiday weekend. How's

00:00:29   your bank holiday going? I was gonna say, I wondered if you were gonna say, I was thinking

00:00:33   about this today. Are you free from banks? If you would say to me, "Happy Memorial Day," and then I

00:00:38   would say to you, "Happy early spring bank holiday," which is what this one is technically called.

00:00:44   We have so many, they have to give them designations like early spring, late spring,

00:00:48   early summer, late summer, you know, or first August bank holiday, second August. Well,

00:00:53   congratulations to everybody celebrating the bank holiday, except for the workers and the banks who

00:00:58   have to work on the bank holiday. Well, I mean, and podcasters. We do this to ourselves. This is

00:01:04   a funny thing where like, I'm sure we've mentioned this a million times on the show for this exact

00:01:08   reason where people, you know, I'm working on bank holidays here and people are like, "Oh,

00:01:11   you work on the bank holidays?" "Yep, because Jason doesn't." And then, but then I say,

00:01:16   "Well, similarly, there's any American, like, what do you call them, public holidays that are

00:01:21   on Mondays?" "Jason works them because I'm working." This is the one where we technically both

00:01:26   could have just said, "No, let's not bother," but why would we do that? This is the truth. The truth

00:01:30   is if either of us has a holiday that we want to take off and move the show, we'll move the show,

00:01:35   we'll prerecord it. The problem is then you have to say, "Well, can we do it on Friday?" Or is it,

00:01:41   "Can we move it to Tuesday?" And, "Oh, I got to move a thing here and I got to do this there."

00:01:45   And in the end, usually you and I look at each other and are like, "Let's just do it." I think

00:01:51   Merlin has spoken about this the most, of like, the knock-on effects of one podcast moving.

00:01:57   It is, um, it can be disastrous. How many other shows it moves?

00:02:02   Because everybody's doing shows of everybody else, so all of the shows start moving.

00:02:08   Exactly, and so it's often easier, unless you're traveling. I mean, I'm traveling here and I was

00:02:13   able, there's a car trip, I brought lots of stuff with me because I could do that. But,

00:02:20   unless you're like, if you're traveling for the holiday and you're truly taking a holiday,

00:02:24   then we'll move the show, right? We'll move the show. I didn't have to do this today, but

00:02:29   I didn't want to go through that of rescheduling it, so here we are.

00:02:34   I have a snow talk question for you that comes from Ryan, and Ryan says,

00:02:39   "In what order do you think Apple prioritizes their operating systems,

00:02:44   and how would that differ from how you would prioritize them?"

00:02:48   Now, for the sake of the question, I have them listed as follows, not in order, but just listed.

00:02:53   iOS, iPadOS, macOS, WatchOS, VisionOS, TVOS. So, Jason, what do you think Apple's ranking

00:03:02   of priority is for these operating systems, and what would you like it to be?

00:03:06   I think it varies. I think it varies based on the life cycle of a product,

00:03:11   and I think they also kind of maybe flip a little bit from time to time.

00:03:17   So, right now I would say, I mean, iOS is always number one. Right now I would say maybe even

00:03:23   VisionOS is number two because it's a product that's still in process of happening, and then

00:03:31   I would say... Then I would probably say iPadOS only because it picks up a lot of the work of iOS,

00:03:39   so it's coming along for the ride. Then I would say macOS, then WatchOS, and then TVOS.

00:03:47   I would 100% agree with you. How would you like them to be ranked?

00:03:52   Well, me as a user, me as the CEO of Apple, right?

00:03:58   No, you as Jason Snell, you as you. How would you like them to be ranked?

00:04:03   Like, in your ideal world, how would you do it?

00:04:07   macOS, iPadOS, TVOS, VisionOS, iOS, and WatchOS.

00:04:24   That's wild. That's wild ranking. That is incredible. I love it.

00:04:29   Apple TV is my only TV box, so if I'm purely greedy... Now, if I was the CEO of Apple,

00:04:33   iOS is first. iOS is first. iOS has gotten a lot of love. It doesn't need more love.

00:04:37   Yeah, I know. I would do it very differently, but if I'm greedy, the iPhone's fine. The other

00:04:46   products need more love, and I know why they don't get them, but they need more love. And TVOS...

00:04:50   Shout out to Joe Rosenstiel, who's written many, many, many blog posts about this, but TVOS

00:04:56   has so much potential because even though that box is more expensive than the competition,

00:05:01   it's like the hardware is so much better. There's so much that could be improved about it,

00:05:05   and it just doesn't get better. And I use it every day, so I would like it to be way better than it

00:05:12   is, and the potential's there, but it's just not there. I mean, truth is I'd probably rate VisionOS

00:05:17   highly because I think that there's a lot of potential there, and I think they just desperately

00:05:20   need to improve it. All right, my personal ranking would be, in my ideal world, iOS, macOS,

00:05:30   iPadOS, VisionOS, WatchOS, TVOS. And while I similarly love TVOS, the things I want them to

00:05:40   do for TVOS, I don't think they're going to be able to do them because it requires Netflix and stuff.

00:05:46   - Well, if you make it a priority, you make a deal with Netflix, right?

00:05:49   - Then I would flip... Okay, in that regard, I'll flip TVOS and WatchOS. WatchOS, I don't really

00:05:54   need to do anything. It's fine for me as it is. I'm good with it. Because again, if I was in charge,

00:06:02   there would be another operating system called FitnessOS, and I would put that on a band with

00:06:08   no screen. But yeah, that's where I would go. For me, iOS, I think is... It is the most important

00:06:18   still, and I would still put it that way because the work of iOS will inform all the other OSes,

00:06:24   and I think it will only ever work that way. I can't imagine macOS features really influencing

00:06:32   iOS as heavily as iOS can influence macOS. That's how I would waterfall it.

00:06:36   - All right.

00:06:37   - Thank you to Ryan for that great question. If you would like to send in one of your own,

00:06:43   please go to upgradefeedback.com, and you can send in a Snell Talk question to help us

00:06:48   open an episode of Upgrade. A little bit of follow-up. First off, I would like to thank

00:06:54   all of the listeners and the Upgradients who are the same, one and the same, who wrote in

00:06:58   via various means to give us lovely comments about the new show artwork.

00:07:02   I'm very happy with it, and I'm happy that people love it too. Looks good.

00:07:06   - We did a little fix on the Upgrade+ art for Upgrade+ members.

00:07:14   There's a funny story here that it was using the tagline from the... And the tagline's

00:07:20   a kind of superfluous, and you have to look for them, but it was using the tagline from

00:07:23   the main show instead of the little cheeky extra word, so I put that word back in in

00:07:28   the Photoshop file. And I also noticed when people were posting them that in our old Upgrade+

00:07:33   show art, we capitalized all the things in the tagline, whereas in the regular show art,

00:07:38   we didn't. So it was like up style on the one, and it was inconsistent for years.

00:07:44   - Oh, look at that. Steven. - Who? Steven.

00:07:46   - Steven made all of the membership show up. - Ah, well, he blew it, but I fixed it.

00:07:53   - Well, maybe it was me. - So there it is. Now it should be perfect.

00:07:55   - It's either me or Steven that could be perfect for that.

00:07:57   - All right, the dereliction of the owners, but it has been corrected, and the responsible

00:08:02   parties don't even know who they are. - No, it's impossible to know.

00:08:05   - Very important stuff here. Super important. - It might be possible to know, actually.

00:08:08   I'll see if I can try and find out the answer to that. Maybe there's some kind of provenance

00:08:12   to the file somewhere. - It's nice that people like it.

00:08:15   It was, I like, I'm very happy that we refreshed it without changing it, essentially, because that

00:08:19   was the brief, right? Like, you and I both were very happy with our logo. We just didn't want it

00:08:23   to, we just felt like it needed some improvement. - Yeah, it needed a refresh.

00:08:28   - Yeah, it's skeuomorphic now. - Carlos wrote in and said,

00:08:32   "Listening to your discussion about the iPhone slim, I am thinking that this kind of market

00:08:37   segmentation damages the iPhone brand. When I had an iPhone 5, if you had the latest iPhone,

00:08:43   you had the best iPhone. It democratized the best in the world. But now, the regular iPhone just

00:08:48   means you can't afford the quote-unquote good ones. I wonder if it's worth it for Apple to go

00:08:53   higher in market segmentation and alienate users." - I always love some follow-up from Carlos,

00:09:00   because he's a little feisty, and I often disagree with him, but I think he makes interesting points.

00:09:07   I feel like the existence of the, well, first off, I question the premise that it just means

00:09:12   you can't afford the good ones, because I know a lot of people who buy the iPhone 15,

00:09:17   and it's not because they can't afford the 15 Pro. It's that they don't think that's a good use of

00:09:21   their money. Like, for them, the cheaper phone is fine, and that the Pro is like, "What am I really

00:09:27   getting out of it?" And there are other people for whom it's like, not a question, just like,

00:09:30   "Pay the most, want the best." And so that's, I think, good market segmentation. I think similarly,

00:09:35   if you're Apple and you have the opportunity to make a $2,000 phone that feels like the future,

00:09:40   but no, and you're like, "Well, we can't make the iPhone $2,000, right? We can't do it. It will be

00:09:46   disastrous." But what we could do, and I'm making up that number, but like, just, it's a proxy for

00:09:50   a big number, way more than the current phones. Well, you can't replace the iPhone right now,

00:09:56   but you could make that phone if you're capable and sell it and get people a taste of the future,

00:10:02   and some portion of your audience will buy it. I don't buy the premise that the iPhone's success

00:10:09   is based on the fact that everybody gets the same one, because that hasn't been true for several

00:10:15   years, and the iPhone is still successful. And in fact, there are people who are perfectly happy

00:10:19   to buy the cheaper model because they don't feel like they need to buy all those features. They're

00:10:23   not going to use all those features, or they don't want all those features, and they'll save a little

00:10:26   bit of money, and it makes them feel good about buying the iPhone of their choice. I don't think

00:10:30   there are a lot of iPhone 15 and 14 owners going, "Oh man, I don't like this phone. I wanted the

00:10:35   good phone, but I couldn't afford it, so I just got this." I don't think that's the case. I think

00:10:39   that's a different market segment. But even if there are, I don't think Apple cares, and I think

00:10:44   that the results have borne out. Well, they haven't lost sales over it, I don't think, right?

00:10:50   The thing about aspirational goods is in the name. They will make expensive, full-featured iPhones,

00:10:57   because people will, the majority of people, will want to buy them, and either will, or they will

00:11:03   look to the point when they can, and they will just look forward to when they can make that

00:11:07   purchase. Like, you're a student now, but when you have a job, maybe you'll get the Pro Phone,

00:11:12   because you're not having a phone bought for you by your parents who are trying to just get you

00:11:16   what they can afford, right? Like, I don't think that, well, honestly, if this was the case,

00:11:23   this wouldn't have worked, right? For the last 10 years or whatever that they've been doing

00:11:29   the segmentation. 10 years, it's been almost 10 years since the 6 and 6 Plus. And what Apple has

00:11:36   proven time and time again is every single time they have a more expensive phone, it always sells

00:11:41   the most. In fact, it creates a spike in iPhone revenue when they do. So I don't, I get the idea,

00:11:48   I understand how if you can't afford it, that really sucks, but like, Apple's just going to do

00:11:52   what makes it the most money, same as pretty much any business that wants to make money.

00:11:56   - That's true. And if it was something that caused the iPhone sales to have problems,

00:12:04   they wouldn't do it, right? That's the counter argument is if they did this and it led to less

00:12:08   money, they would stop. But if it, but it doesn't, it leads to more money.

00:12:14   - Nobody knows which models of iPhone sell most more than Apple, right? And so they know.

00:12:20   - Yep, they know.

00:12:21   - While talking about the iPhone slim, I would like to make a quick correction as pointed out

00:12:25   to me by our wonderful video editor, Chip. I attributed the story of the iPhone slim to Jeff

00:12:31   Poo. Jeff is an analyst at Hightong International Securities who shared information about the design

00:12:36   changes coming to the iPhone 17 lineup as a whole corroborate the idea of a slim iPhone. But the

00:12:42   report of the iPhone slim from the information was written by Wayne Ma and Chianna Lu. So Leo,

00:12:48   so I wanted to just correct myself there because it's important. Jason, you reviewed the Kobo Libra

00:12:55   Color, which we were talking about a couple of weeks ago.

00:12:58   - Like how color is spelled in the product name? I think it's Canada.

00:13:02   - Oh, what? Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't notice that.

00:13:05   - I think they're based in Canada. Yeah, that's what they do.

00:13:06   - Put some u's in it.

00:13:07   - So it's great. My review is hilarious because when it's in caps, it's O-U-R. And then when I

00:13:12   refer to the screen, I just say C-O-L-O-R. It's like, that's just how it is. That's how it's

00:13:17   gonna be, folks. - I would like you to say about,

00:13:21   like, you know, kind of give a little bit of your thoughts, but my kind of takeaway

00:13:24   from your review is essentially the color isn't as good as you'd want it to be,

00:13:28   and it makes the screen overall worse. - Yeah, I mean, the screen is too small

00:13:31   to read comics, although I did try. I read some Saga from a PDF. The color is like newsprint-y.

00:13:38   It's not super vibrant or anything because it's an e-ink screen. It's impressive that e-ink can

00:13:44   do color. I mean, there's lots of things that are impressive about the technology,

00:13:51   that e-ink can do color at all is really remarkable. But beyond that, like, it's just,

00:13:58   it's the same as the previous one, but it costs $40 more. It adds color, which is not

00:14:06   very useful in most cases. Color book covers, I guess? And if you do highlighting, you can

00:14:13   color code them, which there might be people for whom this is valuable, but I'm somebody who reads

00:14:18   books on my e-reader, and I don't understand. Like, $40 more without any other real improvements

00:14:27   other than color is not great. They seem to have discontinued the black and white model,

00:14:32   which they didn't do for some of their other models, but this one, the old Libra 2, is gone.

00:14:36   So unless they're working on a black and white successor, it's really a bummer because now you

00:14:43   have to spend $40 more, so it's that much more expensive. And then there's the big issue, which

00:14:49   is that color screen is impressive, but its backlight doesn't go as bright. It's not as bright.

00:14:57   And the screen itself has a very fine texture, I would say, almost, a pattern on the background

00:15:06   that I think is an effect. Some of it might be ghosting. I also have noticed some ghosting where

00:15:12   like things from the previous page are not refreshed properly, but some of it I think

00:15:17   is just fundamental, which is on the black and white Kobo and on Kindles that are black and white,

00:15:22   there's the... It was originally gray, it was really sort of like a black on a gray,

00:15:27   and that tone has gotten lighter and the backlight makes it lighter. Well, this thing,

00:15:31   there's a lot of contrast on the black and white model, and the color model with these little dots

00:15:35   in a pattern that I think is an effect of the color screen and the color layer

00:15:40   means the contrast is less. So it gets less bright and there's poorer contrast. And in bright

00:15:46   writing, in bright reading environments, I notice this, right? Like I notice it doesn't get as

00:15:52   bright. It's not as easy to read as the old model. So in the end, I think it's a disappointment.

00:15:57   I despair about the current state of e-readers because Amazon seems to also have kind of voided

00:16:05   their high-end button pressing Kindles and they just have the lower-end Kindles now.

00:16:11   A lot of the ones that I thought were really good, like the Kindle Oasis, which was expensive but

00:16:21   very good, that seems to be gone. The Kobo Libra 2, that is gone and now you have to pay for the

00:16:28   color model or you can step up to the Sage, but that's much more expensive. Like I just...

00:16:34   there's no... I'm used to there being no excitement in the e-reader space, but now I feel like the

00:16:40   e-reader space is aggressively getting worse. And so the Kobo Libra color, like I wouldn't choose it

00:16:45   over a Libra 2, honestly, even though I think it is faster and the page is turned faster. And I

00:16:50   think there's some nice things about it, but like bottom line is it's not really appreciably better

00:16:54   than the model it replaces. It's more expensive and the screen isn't as good. So what are we even

00:16:59   doing here? So I'm feeling a lot of despair about the e-reader market right now. Well, you have the

00:17:06   savior of the Daylight Computer, right? I've heard from like a half a dozen people at least saying,

00:17:12   "Oh, I can't wait to see what Jason says about the Daylight Computer." The Daylight Computer is

00:17:17   basically an iPad with a screen that they say is "like e-ink," which that's a red flag. "Like

00:17:24   e-ink." What does that mean? I've seen people say it is a black and white LCD display with an amber

00:17:32   backlight, not a regular backlight. That's all it is? Yeah. Yeah. That sounds about right. Like,

00:17:38   it's not e-ink, right? It's not because they would say if it was. And what also irks me is that some

00:17:45   of the hype people around this product, because they've got a really good, I'll give them credit,

00:17:49   a really good process of rolling this out where people are talking about it. And coming to me,

00:17:53   "Oh, Jason, e-inker, e-paper," whatever they say. Beautiful. They have a very good looking website.

00:17:59   Their video is, I think it's a sandwich video. Is there a launch video? Oh, really? Yeah, but it

00:18:04   rolls, it makes me roll my eyes because it's all about like, "Oh, we're addicted to our screens,

00:18:08   and this is going to free you from your screens." I'm like, "Come on." But like, so these are the

00:18:12   red flags. It's making a lot of claims about, "Oh, we're addicted to our screens," which

00:18:16   people like their screens. I don't, I really can't stand the "we're addicted to our screens,

00:18:21   here's another screen." Yeah, I know, but our screen is a different screen. It's like e-ink,

00:18:26   but not, but not, but it is. So I got a lot of red flags. It might be an interesting product.

00:18:30   It's iPad-sized, it's black and white, e-ink-like, but not. It's got a stylus. You can attach a

00:18:36   keyboard. It runs Android, but they've customized it. You know, then again, I reviewed a TCL tablet

00:18:42   that I got mostly because they put a matte display protector on it with some, and it had some tweaks

00:18:51   of Android where you could put it in a black and white mode where it looked remarkably like a

00:18:55   Kindle, except it was an Android tablet. So it's still like full-on refresh rate. And they say,

00:19:01   "This one's got a, whatever, 60 hertz refresh rate and all that." It's interesting, but this is

00:19:08   a product in the category of the like, "remarkable" or something, or that word processor that uses

00:19:15   like an e-ink screen so that you can just focus on your writing. That's the market that strikes me,

00:19:20   and there's a lot of woo-woo kind of like, "We're addicted to our screen stuff in that marketing,

00:19:24   in that category." And this strikes me as being where it is targeted, which doesn't really

00:19:30   interest me at all. And the truth is that I'm interested in, I cover e-readers not because it's

00:19:36   an important market that I need to cover as part of my business and my brand. I cover them because

00:19:42   I care and nobody else seems to care, or very few other people seem to care, but I care.

00:19:48   So I write about it. This product is not in a category that I care about. My only real

00:19:54   interest in it is that I have raised an eyebrow at some other marketing, and I can't wait for

00:19:59   people who are not getting a sneak peek from the company to actually find out what it is and how

00:20:07   it really works, because I would love to know the choices they've made to allow them to make

00:20:14   the claims they're making, but for me, there's zero interest. I would rather use an iPad,

00:20:21   and as an e-reader, I would rather use a Kindle or a Kobo or a Books Palma or whatever, right?

00:20:27   Like any of the above, but not... I'm interested. I would love to try the product. Like, I would love

00:20:32   them to send me one. I actually reached out to them and said I would like to try one. Like,

00:20:37   I'm not going to spend the $700 on two of those. Gruber bought one, apparently. Well, the other

00:20:40   thing is that, yeah, I'm also not going to buy one. I think there is, in addition to... I mean,

00:20:46   there is a marking up PDFs market, right? That is one of the things that frustrates me about

00:20:50   the e-reader market is they keep getting bigger and they keep adding pens, and I don't care,

00:20:55   but I understand... But also, like, you know, me and Gray were talking about this on Cortex.

00:20:59   Like, they're doing it, but it's still not good enough. Like, you know, they're making the screens

00:21:04   bigger. They're adding pens, but getting PDFs on a lot of these devices is still very complicated

00:21:09   and, like, not as easy as putting it on an iPad. Right. Right. Advantage of the Kobo is it supports

00:21:14   Google Drive and Dropbox now, which is kind of nice. And it's got a pen, apparently, but I don't

00:21:20   want it and I don't care, right? Anyway, so there... I understand what's happening here,

00:21:24   which is the e-reader market itself is not very big. And so they are trying to find other markets.

00:21:28   And people marking up documents is... And now the pen technology is such that you can get...

00:21:35   You can integrate that into your product and build something that potentially has another market to

00:21:41   it. Now, I think the truth is for marking up documents with a pen, you probably want a much

00:21:46   larger screen than the kind of screen that I want. And this product has it. And that's one way where

00:21:52   this product might be interesting. I mean, you and I both... And it runs Android, which is great.

00:21:56   And it runs Android. That's the way to do this. You know, we know David Sparks. Like, David,

00:22:00   in his attorney job especially, like, one of the things that, like, a lot of attorneys and other

00:22:04   people do lots of paperwork, they use the iPad to do this. Here's the other thing, though, again,

00:22:08   I will say is, yes, very impressive. Long battery life, apparently. Black and white screen. Doesn't

00:22:14   have the big backlight shining in your eyes. Okay, great. I can see why this might be an interesting

00:22:19   use case. Although, again, at that point, I think... Or you could just use an iPad and an

00:22:24   Apple Pencil. But, hey, interesting idea, but not anything I would consider as an e-reader. It's a

00:22:33   totally different category of product that I... Yeah, no, thank you. Next week, it's the draft.

00:22:40   The WWDC draft. We're here already. It's kind of unbelievable. Like, looking at my next couple

00:22:47   of weeks, like, oh, yeah, here we go. It's ramping up now. WWDC is just around the corner. So, next

00:22:50   week on the show, we're going to be drafting. Could be the biggest draft ever. We're actually

00:22:55   going to talk about it in Upgrade Plus. So, go to getupgradeplus.com if you haven't signed up

00:22:58   already. Get longer ad-free episodes of the show. Thank you to everybody that has. We really

00:23:04   appreciate you. But we're actually going to talk about the categories because this one's different.

00:23:09   Obviously, with the introduction of AI and stuff like that, I think we're going to have to... And

00:23:13   VisionOS. We're going to have to talk about how we're going to set our categories. And so, our

00:23:18   picks are usually me and Jason. We did this in a frenzy in Slack. But instead, today, I thought,

00:23:22   why not talk about it in Upgrade Plus? This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,

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00:25:42   show and all of Relay FM. Room around up time. It's that time again partner. So got a bunch of

00:25:50   stuff for you. I'm gonna start with a report from Mark Germin with some details about WWDC

00:25:57   announcements and his power on newsletter. So got a few things here. Focus in a couple of areas

00:26:02   starting with AI in Apple's platforms mostly in iOS 18 and Mac OS 18 is where 15. They should make

00:26:12   the numbers the same I think. They should. I think they should do that. All the other platforms right

00:26:16   it's the same they like tvOS will be tvOS 18. So why is Mac OS 15? Let's just make it 18 because

00:26:23   really technically Mac OS is on to like version 50 or something right? Yeah it's because the year

00:26:29   that they went to Mac to iOS 11 and I said spinal tap would appear WWDC. They said no no no no we're

00:26:37   just going to keep it at 10 when that was the perfect year to make it Mac OS 11 and because of

00:26:41   that we're now in this ridiculous situation where they waited four years and it's just come on for

00:26:45   three years. So yeah. So Apple will have a system on devices that will decide if a task needs to be

00:26:52   completed on device or in the cloud depending on the complexity of it. A quote from Mark Germin,

00:26:58   "Most of the on device features will be supported by chips released in the last year or so. The cloud

00:27:03   component will be powered by M2 Ultra chips located in data centers." I had a thought this

00:27:08   morning that made me upset. I don't want to upgrade my MacBook Air, my M2 MacBook Air. I don't want to

00:27:15   do that. I really hope I don't have to do that. Right. Yeah. Yeah it would yeah that there may be

00:27:24   some consternation if the Mac like I understand if they say only iPhone 15 Pro and later gets this

00:27:33   and otherwise it's in the cloud like I would understand that and there's an Apple Watch

00:27:37   better performance mention that he has here and I thought well that's going to be for the on device

00:27:42   engine which only runs on the Series 9 and the Ultra 2 right. I see it like okay great but yeah

00:27:50   they say oh this can't run locally on an M1 or M2 Mac you know there may be rioting in the streets.

00:27:58   Yeah I imagine uh stage manager all over again. Yeah yeah. Siri will be upgraded with quote

00:28:07   more natural sounding interactions uh with better performance on Apple Watch for completing tasks

00:28:15   that are focused on platform as well. This we spent some time on this last week I think I

00:28:21   think there are two problems with Siri. We talk about the problems with Siri. I think there are

00:28:29   two problems with Siri when people have problems with Siri. One of them is you just try you're

00:28:34   just trying to get everyone's devices to go off. Why are you saying it so many times? Okay well I

00:28:40   mean whatever turn off well Mike the fact is everybody's turned it off so um just real quick

00:28:47   can I just I just said hey watch out I'm sorry uh Adina was watching Lute on Apple TV and they

00:28:56   someone said Siri and it set her phone off. Oh man it's like even the product integrations are

00:29:01   ruining people's experiences. Yeah you cannot have you cannot have the hey and it goes off too well.

00:29:06   My my dog is named the two vowel sounds of the trigger phrase so I've had that happen a lot.

00:29:16   Anyway um here are the two problems with un with that device that I set off 10 times in the last

00:29:22   two minutes. One problem is the conversational problem right it's that you have to code your

00:29:31   question and word it in a right in the right way it's really uncomfortable to do sometimes and if

00:29:36   it missed if it doesn't understand it or it gets it wrong it just fires off some sort of ridiculous

00:29:42   thing and then you can't really get it back you kind of have to start again and it's very

00:29:46   frustrating so something like an llm and that would be better at understanding your context

00:29:53   and being able to answer follow-up questions and being able to focus and and correct things and

00:29:59   have a conversation with you that gets to the result of what it needs you know to give you

00:30:04   the result that you want great like that's so that's one part of it and then the other part

00:30:09   of it is bad results right which is I think part of the first part but also has to do with the data

00:30:14   sources and how and the fact that it punts things to the web too often right and things like or or

00:30:21   or can't answer it on a home pod because you've got to have your phone there right so I feel like

00:30:27   the the way that this report is phrased I read that as being that they're trying to make the

00:30:32   conversation with the agent better which is great yeah that leaves us with the other part which is

00:30:39   first off a question which is if the agent better understands you and what you want

00:30:45   are the data sources in siri sorry uh okay are they are they good enough if the agent is more

00:30:54   intelligent maybe but I still think that there are those things where it's like oh I need to look on

00:30:59   the web for this uh and that may be that's the that's the part two and is that where partners

00:31:05   with other llms come in and is it again there's the mystery of llm integration which you know would

00:31:12   would they would see no you can say I wasn't saying you couldn't say it was just funny to

00:31:17   me that you said it like five times in a row yeah well I'm just trying to beat it into submission

00:31:22   would uh would siri be able to use some of those llms as a data source and say hey I am now asking

00:31:30   you to give me this thing but you know who I am right and you know what I want right and then have

00:31:35   it come back you know with something that it parses and says I talked to my friend GPT and it

00:31:42   says this uh would that be better so I mean we'll we'll see how they the story of how they choose to

00:31:49   implement this uh but I still get a little bit of the willies that we're gonna get a siri that we're

00:31:54   gonna be like finally they fix siri and then we're gonna look at what they do and we're gonna go did

00:31:57   you fix it really uh mark says xcode will get ai enhancements this is what we're all thinking

00:32:05   that happened last year right like yeah this is the co-pilot thing which is that programmers have

00:32:11   and I mean I've done this with python scripts like it's you look at code repositories and samples of

00:32:17   code and how things do things and instead of finding a web you know okay let's just say it

00:32:21   instead of going to stack overflow and finding the three questions that seem to be your question and

00:32:26   the answers and trying to parse which one actually works and makes sense for you and there's a jerk

00:32:31   in the comments who says no you did it wrong and then this one gets upvotes and all of that

00:32:35   what it turns out that uh an ai parsing all of those and just giving you the answer can be more

00:32:43   efficient maybe not more effective but often more effective and so having more of those tools in the

00:32:49   development tools totally makes sense because it's it's kind of a proven concept this can be helpful

00:32:54   for programmers ai generated emoji so based on conversations that you're having the system may

00:33:05   be able to create new emoji that do not exist that you could use yeah now my expectation is this is

00:33:13   not emoji these are stickers we've been here before yes although I did have that moment

00:33:19   because you and I both know jeremy birch uh emoji pedia emeritus yep and so we know a lot of things

00:33:27   about emojis that most people don't know including the fact that many emojis are actually put together

00:33:31   these days with combinations of unicode code points so instead of saying there's a code number

00:33:38   for firefighter male and a code number for firefighter female and a code number for fire

00:33:45   fighter neutral gender instead there's a code for firefighter and then you follow it with a

00:33:53   male symbol or a female symbol or a neutral symbol and or maybe the firefighter is neutral by default

00:34:00   and you modify it but regardless that a lot of emoji are built that way so you end up with I

00:34:05   think the lime emoji is literally the lemon followed by green square yeah and it turns into

00:34:11   that so I did have a moment where I thought would they do that would they just sort of like say what

00:34:17   are all the other ways I can combine emojis and build art for them and then just like do it that

00:34:21   way but I think you're right probably it's stickers probably they've got an emoji generator I'm basing

00:34:26   this on all of apple's look at this emoji we made started with me emoji then likes to stickers in

00:34:33   general like they've always added them as stickers and of course now you have the emoji as stickers

00:34:38   thing anyway as I as of iOS 17 I can imagine that it will create things that look like emoji but put

00:34:45   them in your images yeah right because again they're not going to be able to send them as

00:34:50   actual emoji because it wouldn't work actual emoji don't exist yeah and also if you were sending that

00:34:55   to a different platform or in a different app like a previous version of the OS yeah so it would just

00:35:01   there'll be stickers and I reckon there will be smart recaps of notifications messages web pages

00:35:07   notes and other types of content so you can ask the platform like hey you know what was that

00:35:13   message or catch me up that kind of thing I expect Mark Gurman says that apple will not have

00:35:19   a chatbot of its own it will rely on partnerships this is not stated by Gurman or really anyone yet

00:35:25   as to how exactly this will work like is it right what you were saying earlier that that siri will

00:35:30   go and ask or is it that the chatgpt app is installed on your phone or is you know like or

00:35:35   you just get thrown to a ui who knows this is what I was thinking is I actually even wonder if it

00:35:40   might be something you wouldn't necessarily need partnerships but like if it's integrated with the

00:35:44   system there could be it's in spotlight or siri will ask I was thinking the other way you could

00:35:52   do this is have an API and let because one of the things that some people want is to like trigger

00:35:59   this from other places so maybe you could even build an API that's like if you if you offer a

00:36:03   chatbot service you do this API and then people can choose their default chatbot and it we we

00:36:10   built some UI around it but it's a real question it's an interesting idea of how do they deeply

00:36:14   integrate this because the chatbots are on iOS now they're just not super integrated they're just

00:36:18   apps but how does apple choose to integrate them if it chooses to grant them some special privileges

00:36:25   that you know that because they're going up against android where gemini is going to be deeply

00:36:30   integrated so that's that's the challenge that they've got is how do we provide users with

00:36:36   whatever it is that they want from these things so that we don't look like we're behind google in

00:36:43   terms of the integration I mean as well like since we since our last show microsoft showed up a bunch

00:36:49   of stuff of their own which is very interesting you know the new devices throughout windows windows

00:36:55   that they're using and I the the last thing that is mentioned by mark german is that these AI

00:37:02   features may be labeled as a preview either up until release or post post release as the more

00:37:09   we're finding out the more we're getting these little reports and then the more we're seeing

00:37:15   from apple's competitors the more I'm like oh boy I don't think this is gonna go very well

00:37:21   I remain hopeful that there's stuff that we haven't seen and the implementations may be

00:37:26   really cool but apple's competitors are going very hard on this and and I'm not sure how they're

00:37:34   gonna stack up well think about so think about how long it takes to build these things you know

00:37:41   longer than a few months and the german report is that apple was caught flat-footed and had to

00:37:48   change direction last year so if apple yeah if we look at the announcements at wwc and are like

00:37:57   I mean there's something there but they're still not at the level of what google's doing in android

00:38:01   and what microsoft is doing in windows I I don't think that that's a an oh boy they blew it now

00:38:12   I think that's more like we now can see the fact that they were caught flat-footed a year ago

00:38:20   because of the the catch-up time so like it's like even apple can't go like microsoft and google had

00:38:27   such a head start because they took this more seriously microsoft you were with open ai and

00:38:33   google with its own stuff and then apple was like oh geez uh okay we need to do this now and nine

00:38:39   months later I would not be surprised if it's the best they could do in nine months but they're not

00:38:46   going to be able to necessarily match if they were truly caught flat-footed what microsoft and google

00:38:51   have been doing because microsoft and google were not caught flat-footed they have been at a

00:38:55   at a run already and that means apple will be it will expose how far behind apple was last year

00:39:04   right is what I'm saying and that is something we don't know for sure but the reports suggest that

00:39:10   they are and and up to now we've been like well is apple behind because there's nothing really out

00:39:14   there but when you see how gemini is integrated with android and you see what microsoft is doing

00:39:18   with it with copilot this summer it may become apparently clear exactly how far behind apple is

00:39:25   and then you know I think can they catch up sure I think they can but that's I think what we're

00:39:32   going to learn this summer is how how slow did apple get off the blocks when they realized that

00:39:39   they needed to actually integrate this everywhere like their competitors mar german also says that

00:39:46   the some of the homescreen improvements that we'll see is the free placements of apps and widgets

00:39:51   which you'd heard before and the ability for a user to change the color of app icons developers

00:39:57   will probably hate this but this is the this is the aesthetic thing where I mean they're already

00:40:01   doing this like I saw somebody say I hate this and then somebody else said yeah but they're already

00:40:06   doing it right because we know that people have all sorts of ways of building you build a shortcut

00:40:11   to an app that uses a custom icon and then you can have all of your icons be green or all of your

00:40:16   icons be pink or have them color coded I love the example the bloomberg-iest of examples which is

00:40:23   finance apps can all be green like money oh yes oh you you're you're letting your monocle and top

00:40:30   hat slip a little bit there mr bloomberg but uh sure a patented mike hurley guarantee on this one

00:40:37   okay this will be an api and only independent developers will opt in that is what I that's

00:40:43   what I think oh oh the developers are gonna have to opt in to allow uh customization of their icons

00:40:50   you know interesting okay that's an well put that on the draft I know google did it with material

00:40:55   you that's great that's fine I don't think that's how I think it will be different I think that this

00:41:00   is how Apple will do it because I just can't imagine a scenario because I also don't think

00:41:05   that it really makes any sense like a brand chooses its colors right and then they're just

00:41:10   like oh forget it like you know what if an apple podcast they were like opt in and people could

00:41:15   change the look of your show artworks and no I don't want people to do that we have chosen how

00:41:19   we want our show artwork to look exactly so here is my counter prediction you're like I love it

00:41:26   counter prediction um here it is what they're gonna do is they're gonna have one of the sessions

00:41:31   and I love these sessions I watch these videos I love them where they're like you know it's

00:41:35   the videos that are changes in emoji and changes in how icons work and and and uh changes in widget

00:41:42   design I love those design they're design sessions where it's like technical but it's also design

00:41:47   I bet that they will have a new approach to app icons that will say um you know users can choose

00:41:56   my guess is choose from a palette of colors and that you as a developer can supply

00:42:03   alternate icons for each palette or designate a layer of your icon as customizable and that the

00:42:14   system will change that layer based on the palette that's you know what that makes sense actually

00:42:21   where it's like oh by the way this isn't a choice but I think you're I think you're right that it's

00:42:27   not going to be like would you like us to just run a filter on the slack icon to turn it into a

00:42:32   different color I don't think they will go that far but it'll be more like hey colorful icons

00:42:39   everybody's getting in the game here's how you participate and it's either you can meticulously

00:42:44   choose every single icon or you can do this thing where you're like I gotta here's this layer you

00:42:51   know the letter in our logo can be any color right it's like okay great wonderful okay that's

00:42:56   an I like that I like that so maybe it's time to lawyer up clunk clunk oh I like that I like that

00:43:06   it's a law and order kind of thing right yeah that's fun that's fun I like the sound effects

00:43:13   that go with every chapter I had a friend text me the other day and say oh I was listening to upgrade

00:43:18   I haven't listened in a while and there's a lot there's a lot of uh a lot of segments not yet

00:43:25   that's verticals that's verticals we've been we've been doing it since the beginning though

00:43:28   the verticals we kind of went away from it a little bit now we got more now we got more

00:43:32   verticals we're back with the verticals I love structure I know you don't do in my podcasts

00:43:38   makes amazing in the world of technology there are two parties the regulators and apple this is their

00:43:45   story clunk clunk on bluebird profiled the developers of the alt store and their journey

00:43:52   so far in this article it mentions that alt store pow has already passed a hundred thousand downloads

00:43:58   in the eu yeah this is a fun story if you've got access to bloomberg I highly recommend it

00:44:03   um mr bloomberg with his top hat in this monocle um it is great the thing I love about it the most

00:44:10   is that is that riley test it and his business partner uh they're like in their mid to late 20s

00:44:16   in order to establish their european branch and do their work and develop their app

00:44:22   they've just been living in europe for a while and like going airbnb's in various places they're in

00:44:27   amsterdam they're in copenhagen they're in dublin they're like and there's literally a quote in the

00:44:33   story that's like I want to go home yeah but but they they want to they want to do this it's a it's

00:44:39   a fun it's just a fun look into all the effort that is required to try and make this happen and

00:44:46   it's got that really nice moment where they're about ready to launch and then apple says oh

00:44:50   delta emulators can just be in the store and they're like ah which really hits home about

00:44:55   how much that was a move to cut them off at the knees from launching their thing by putting it in

00:45:03   the regular app store but they did it they're like okay we'll put in the app store and then of course

00:45:07   it goes to number one uh yeah it's a good story it's a really good story but I just like the idea

00:45:12   that they want to go home but they can't because they gotta keep doing things in europe uh shane is

00:45:17   the name of riley's shane yeah they need to I think they just need to hire a uh I they probably

00:45:23   don't have the they need to hire a part-time like european beard right like I mean I mean it's

00:45:29   possible right like maybe I who knows what they may have actually ended up having to do or will

00:45:35   end up having to do but you can't test this stuff outside of europe is the is the thing because your

00:45:42   phones are then I mean I guess yeah right I don't know shuttling back and forth you can't you can't

00:45:47   actually my understanding is that a lot of this stuff is not testable outside of europe if you're

00:45:51   a developer so because apple's not apple's not gonna make it easy big surprise that's the other

00:45:57   thing that I really got out of it and then there's another note you're about to mention which is it's

00:46:02   very clear too that this is apple making it as difficult as possible every step of the way because

00:46:07   this is your malicious compliance right which is they'll do it but they're not going to be happy

00:46:11   and they're not going to make it easy uh on mastodon riley tester has said that the notarization

00:46:16   process from apple is taking multiple weeks even though apple would originally said they could

00:46:21   expect notarization to happen within a few hours yeah that's not good how about that good this is

00:46:27   not good yeah I think riley suggested that if you don't like this contact the european commission

00:46:32   which is like yeah I mean you should people should do it and and I hope that I hope that

00:46:36   they're making a complaint too because this isn't right I was listening to last week's accidental

00:46:41   tech podcast and um they had a conversation about emulators and not things we talked about about

00:46:48   like not having a just-in-time compiler be allowed and all that stuff and it just struck me again

00:46:52   that the real issue here is if I have to like completely simplify it is it's a different thing

00:47:03   being a developer if all you can do is do all of your work for a particular platform

00:47:10   put it in front of the platform's council of you know of elders and have them say yes or no

00:47:17   and if they say no you have zero recourse right like if you say no your thing is dead because

00:47:26   it doesn't run anywhere else it's built for that platform and they won't tell you up front whether

00:47:32   you can have it and and I mean I guess the story was that riley talked to somebody at apple and

00:47:37   probably in developer relations who said no that'll no problem that'll be great and then

00:47:41   he submitted delta and they're like no you can't do this so why because we say so okay um which is

00:47:47   the same with that clip utility which the bloomberg article says um why is this not allowed um because

00:47:54   apple says so and then apple's response is something like oh apple totally allows clipboard

00:47:58   managers that protect the privacy of the user by which they mean don't work um and I just this is

00:48:04   the this is the core frustration that goes to all of this which is all of this would be solved

00:48:09   all of this would be solved if there was a fallback like there is on the mac where the default is

00:48:20   everything's locked up tight everything comes through the app store that's your only option

00:48:25   but there is a secondary world where you can turn on and get all of the scare dialogues and

00:48:33   apps can live there too like on the mac and apple doesn't want to do that but like when when I was

00:48:42   thinking about riley's delta story I thought oh wow you know the fact is today if you get rejected

00:48:47   with your app that you built on ios apple says no well you can't release that app except in europe

00:48:55   where you totally can and i thought wow see see there's a little glimmer there of what this is

00:49:00   and i know there are lots of issues and a lot of people have strong opinions about this but i think

00:49:04   fundamentally that's that's what this is about is apple like why invest in developing for this

00:49:12   platform if apple can capriciously kick you out at any point um you know and without without

00:49:17   recourse right again it's not i have no problem with apple saying no we don't want this kind of

00:49:22   app in our store great we don't want it in our default platform because of security reasons it's

00:49:27   locked down fine but when there's no alternative and in the eu there is now so that's that's good

00:49:34   but i don't i don't like the idea that yes oh well we have this you know this is this is actually was

00:49:39   the huge fear about um the huge fear when they did notarization on the mac was that apple would use

00:49:46   it as a de facto app approval system and fortunately notarization on the mac has actually been very

00:49:51   smooth but what they said in the eu about notarization for ios apps that were going

00:49:55   outside the app store was well it's going to be more intensive of our process which i can see the

00:50:02   why right like it's not fundamentally unreasonable however multiple weeks per app is completely

00:50:12   unreasonable yep the set app mobile app marketplace has entered invite only beta as they prepare to

00:50:20   launch their subscription model offering this summer the verge got a look at it and wrote a big

00:50:25   piece about it at least at launch setup have said that they will not be charging for their app

00:50:30   marketplace they're going to be paying the ctf for marketplace installs themselves so like the 50

00:50:35   cents that you need to install the app marketplace setup will just pay that they told the verge that

00:50:41   they don't expect app developers to pass the 1 million install threshold for the ctf like it's

00:50:47   just not something they're expecting is going to happen very often if at all and i'm sure that

00:50:51   they're using their own data of what set up on the mac and set they have like a version on ios

00:50:57   which i'm not 100 sure exactly how that works like i know it does work i know existing apps and

00:51:01   there's coupons or something it's weird i don't know how they get through that but they do mac

00:51:07   poor who makes setup have confirmed that there will be over 30 apps available when the open beta

00:51:13   launches uh in a little bit in the summer there's like 17 apps are now yeah yeah so this is you pay

00:51:19   you pay for a subscription to set up like you do now you pay for a subscription to the setup

00:51:24   at marketplace and um all the apps in it are free at that point right you you you buy them through

00:51:30   your subscription instead yep and we may soon learn if and how all of this work with the dma

00:51:38   will scale to other countries nine to five mac is reporting that apple may soon need to offer

00:51:43   alternative app marketplaces in japan legislation is currently being debated in parliament that

00:51:48   could result in a similar set of requirements to the dma basically uh not default app stores

00:51:55   there should be other payment options etc etc yeah it is simultaneously dma providing a road map for

00:52:02   other i mean we said this was going to happen a road map for other regions other regulators to do

00:52:06   what they do it's easy and then more than that well and more than that you know what apple's built

00:52:12   right yeah so you if you if you build something that more or less follows what's going on in

00:52:16   europe apple doesn't really have a leg to stand on in terms of pleading like oh no it will take us

00:52:21   time to do this it's like well you already built it so build it for us now and that that was always

00:52:28   the danger that is the thing about what the eu should be congratulated for is that they were able

00:52:34   for whatever reason to be able to put the right amount of pressure on apple to make them do it

00:52:38   and google and that right and all the other companies that the dma will or will not affect

00:52:43   like that it is quite impressive that they were able to do it yeah and now that apple has built

00:52:48   because remember these rumors i mean this stuff was discussed more than a year ago that they were

00:52:55   going to do this and it was going to take until you know the following year which is now um but

00:53:02   the beauty of it is they the eu made them build it made them spend a big part of the ios development

00:53:07   cycle on these features and now they exist and now other regions can just say i want that and that

00:53:14   that's always been apple's greatest danger is that once the once the features have been implemented

00:53:20   it's a lot easier for everybody else to just say yeah give me that i want that the marketplace cat

00:53:26   is out of the bag um meow uh apple's also been looking at a new segment marketplace cat no i

00:53:32   don't think so uh apple's also been lowering up they're going to challenge the 1.8 billion euro

00:53:39   fine that the eu wants it to pay for anti-competitive actions against music streaming

00:53:44   services like spotify they're filing a lawsuit at the eu general court this one was obvious that

00:53:49   they were going to do this because that is a whopping fine uh and apple has also filed a pre-motion letter

00:53:56   to ask a dismissal of the u.s department of justice's antitrust case against them apple is saying

00:54:02   that the market share definition is wrong that they do not have monopoly power and they have not

00:54:07   harmed consumers basically what are the three things for antitrust that they don't they're not

00:54:11   doing any of them uh this is all expected as part of the process that we're going to go through you

00:54:17   know when we were talking about this is going to take multiple years this is part of why it's like

00:54:21   it was obvious it was to happen um there will be many amounts of back and forth now to see if it

00:54:26   will not be dismissed we'll find out later on this year or early next year as to whether a dismissal

00:54:31   will work for apple or not if it doesn't the trial stuff begins yeah and that's why we ordered art

00:54:38   for lawyer up because this is a segmented show

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00:56:07   i want to do a vision pro check-in with you jason how often are you using a vision pro

00:56:14   uh varies widely um there was a span of about a week and a half where i didn't use it at all and

00:56:21   then i was like oh yeah vision pro let's get back on and then you know and got it started back up

00:56:25   again um but i did actually have i'd say yeah i'd say it's maybe a couple of days a week um i

00:56:33   i had some there's some work going on in our house and it's and i work at our house so it's extremely

00:56:41   disruptive extremely disruptive to my work and at one point i needed to write i think it was a mac

00:56:50   world column and i just like i had to blot out the world and i i got the bluetooth keyboard and

00:56:59   i actually sat in the bedroom on the bed with my headphones in my airpods noise canceling music

00:57:04   playing for some of it and wrote that whole article on the vision pro which i hadn't done in a

00:57:12   in maybe a month um and it was really great i was reminded and then when i was done i was like i'm

00:57:17   just gonna stay in here for a little while and look at some stuff and all of that and be reminded

00:57:21   about it i think the challenge with vision pro right now for me is i need more reasons to put

00:57:26   it on yes i need more kind of things and this is the challenge with the platform right now is

00:57:31   it needs more juice it needs more content it needs more reasons to use it it needs more features and

00:57:39   i you know i i it's fine right like i get it it is a uh a new platform that's really just kind

00:57:48   of starting but that's about that's sort of where i am with it is if there's new content i will go

00:57:52   watch it and if there's a very particular thing where i want to kind of block out the world i will

00:57:57   use it but um also it's a little of that is artificial like the ipad pro took up all of my

00:58:03   bandwidth for a couple of weeks where i just use the ipad pro all the time and and anytime i would

00:58:08   be like well i could do this on the like i was watching i was gonna watch something on the vision

00:58:13   pro and then i thought i i gotta watch this on the oled screen on the ipad pro because i need that as

00:58:17   another data point i need more video that i'm watching on the ipad pro so some of it is that how

00:58:21   are you doing with yours uh i use mine once or twice a week for a few hours at a time usually and

00:58:28   and i similarly to you i use it more when there's a thing that gets me there and then i'll use it

00:58:35   for a long period of time right yes and so for me i've watched every episode of xmen 97 on division

00:58:42   pro so every wednesday i was sitting down watching uh an episode for 30 minutes and then using it for

00:58:48   like another hour an hour and a half like because when i'm in the vision pro i just want to spend

00:58:54   time in it like i love what i say it's the perfect noodling computer i'm like over here checking this

00:58:59   message i'm over here looking at this like i really like it like if imagine how like for a

00:59:04   lot of people i expect you may be similar to me uh if you if you when you're on an ipad you're kind

00:59:10   of like spending some time on it you're like checking what's on this app what's on that app

00:59:14   what's in my rss like that's how i love to use division pro it's like the ultimate ipad in that

00:59:20   way with like and i find it very engaging like the operating system looks really great like it's kind

00:59:26   of general procrastinating or as i like to call work procrastinating like you're just kind of

00:59:32   you're doing little jobs it's the stuff i would be doing anyway but i'm doing it here instead of there

00:59:36   and it's fantastic for that i i agree 100 with your perception which is i need a reason to put

00:59:41   it on but once i put it on i'm like oh yeah well while i'm here i'm gonna do this thing and that

00:59:45   thing and all that because it's really fun but you do need it's enough of a leap where like i

00:59:49   don't have it like hanging out where i'm like i'm just gonna flip this thing right on it's more like

00:59:53   am i going to use the vision pro yeah i'm gonna do that i'm gonna get set somewhere with it and

00:59:56   i'm gonna put it on i'm gonna get it all hooked up and i'm gonna be ready to go and once i'm over

01:00:02   that hump i'm like i don't want to leave honestly for for some period of time and similarly for me

01:00:07   in here if i have to write something longer than an email i'm putting the vision pro on because

01:00:11   i find it to be really helpful for helping me stay focused because it's so visually engaging and like

01:00:17   audio engaging to use so but there is new content so this is one of the one of the reasons i wanted

01:00:24   to talk today is there's three things content wise which for the vision pro is like it's like ice

01:00:31   water in the desert right now so the first thing i saw sigmund judge who's the host of magic rays

01:00:38   of light on max stories on mastodon said that the experience immersive trailer been updated so this

01:00:45   is like the sizzle reel and this it's all new there's so much stuff that's in this now so they

01:00:53   have um more sports stuff so there is a golf shot there is uh content from the super bowl wow and

01:01:00   the nbr all-star nba all-star game wow in this now there's more soccer there's more human interest

01:01:07   stuff there's like hot air balloons and there's people uh wild swimming and there's more wildlife

01:01:12   content there's so much more stuff it's like a new sizzle reel it seems like they're getting

01:01:20   ready for a bit of a relaunch maybe to more people like there's a ton of content yeah that is not

01:01:27   available in full form right so like the original immersive trailer i think everything that was in

01:01:34   there essentially except some of the sports stuff but that all came out in the episode ones of each

01:01:40   of those like different immersive content but there was a ton of stuff in this one that isn't

01:01:45   available anywhere else nice like you can't like one of the nba all-star shots you're at courtside

01:01:51   which is what people wanted right you're sitting at courtside and you can look around and you're

01:01:54   watching them what's really great there's this one shot where uh someone misses a pass and the

01:02:00   ball hits the camera and like it cuts at that moment but it's like so perfect just so happening

01:02:05   at the ball i haven't seen this this is great this is all new go watch it it's really great

01:02:10   they also released um the second episode of the adventure series so the adventure series the first

01:02:16   high line is the high line fjords the first one yeah this one is of a parkour group in paris

01:02:22   interesting and terrifying because you're up there watching these guys make their jumps and

01:02:29   it's really well done i i liked this more than the highlining one it's really really good i

01:02:36   was like my like my heart was pounding watching it it was very very good but it's not all apple

01:02:43   there's also this is announced a couple of weeks ago the trailer is out now uh what if it's a marvel

01:02:50   experience ilm interactive a marvel worked together to produce this it's so me and you have both

01:02:59   actually experienced this we both are on the beta we can only talk about the intro of it right now

01:03:05   it's a very very early impressions we'll actually maybe talk more about it next week um i think so

01:03:10   so it is some what if is an animated series on disney plus uh which is based on a comic series

01:03:18   where it's basically what if what if you took things that happened in the marvel timeline and

01:03:24   did them in another direction so like what if peggy carter became captain britain rather than

01:03:30   steve rogers becoming captain america exactly one of the big stories in the like the what if show

01:03:36   for example um this is a part movie part you're involved in it um you can watch the trailer you

01:03:46   put the trailer and some impressions and six colors like this is exactly the kind of thing

01:03:51   that we were hoping for like it's fun the fidelity is fantastic you're using hand tracking to like

01:03:58   make spells right like you're casting dr strange like spells it's really cool yeah wong wong

01:04:03   appears in the intro and and basically says you know here are some hand gestures and there's the

01:04:09   the and there's like a guide but it's an in-universe guide it's like the hand of agamotto

01:04:14   is going to show you how to do this gesture to do a teleport and this gesture and uh that's a super

01:04:19   clever right way of integrating the hand tracking uh that vision pro can do in order to to make it

01:04:25   feel more immersive i i love that they call it an immersive experience because i was trying to

01:04:30   explain this to somebody and i said well they don't want to call it a game because it's not very long

01:04:36   it's not full it's it's only about an hour long and i think that they've said that too

01:04:40   but like an hour long is like the longest piece of immersive content that that's been on vision pro

01:04:45   yep so there's that right like but it's it's interactive i wouldn't call it a game because

01:04:51   it's not a game i don't i again i don't want to go too far but i i don't think you can die

01:04:55   um i think you just play the game or you play the the experience but it for things to happen

01:05:02   you have to do things right it's interactive that's the thing that it is also it's a combination

01:05:09   of things right some of it is spatial video it's 3d video some of it is uh interaction in your

01:05:19   augmented reality space some of it is virtual reality environments all of it's using all of

01:05:25   those different pieces so to call it i know it feels silly to call it a an immersive experience

01:05:31   but i don't know what else you would call it because it is all of those things that you're in

01:05:35   that's essentially what it's like a cartoon episode of what if sometimes sometimes you're

01:05:40   watching it through like a portal sometimes you're in it yeah and uh and some things have

01:05:48   have to happen because you do them and the story progresses and there are twists and turns and

01:05:55   you know there are choices that need to be made and like so it is interactive but i don't want

01:05:59   to overhype it and say like it's totally a what if game because it's not a game it's but it is

01:06:05   interactive and immersive and uh as a it's a really interesting experiment and again it's

01:06:11   like an hour so it's it's actually it's got a if you think of it as a game you'll think oh it's

01:06:18   only it's really short but if you think of it as versus like one of these immersive videos that

01:06:22   they've been doing or something like an app like encounter dinosaurs and this is an app too it's uh

01:06:29   it's it's the most i think that they've done yeah this really it feels like someone at disney

01:06:35   you know or marvel like during the process of of uh them getting to see it initially was like

01:06:42   i have a really cool idea because yeah the doctor strange kind of idea the casting spells of your

01:06:48   hands obviously fits so well for this yeah we'll talk about it more next week because we can't

01:06:53   really talk about the full experience more than just the intro part which is what we're talking

01:06:56   about right now and it's going to be free so if you've got a vision pro on wednesday you can i

01:07:00   think it's wednesday you can get it yeah get it uh and i just want to say getting embargo access

01:07:06   to anything marvel property is like dream come true for me so loved it you had a note too in our

01:07:14   vision pro segment today uh called selling the vision pro have you sold your vision pro jason

01:07:19   what is that no no i i i have talked to some of my uh people i know who work in apple retail

01:07:28   and it sounds like there's been at least semi-officially some recalibration in how they

01:07:38   approach selling the vision pro in retail i think it's interesting because and i think it's good

01:07:46   but it sounds like okay remember when this all started apple did its most apple thing which is

01:07:52   like oh we're gonna bring everybody to cupertino and we're gonna have them all learn this script

01:07:55   and they're gonna need to say it word for word and it's a half hour experience that involves like

01:08:00   you're gonna have to get your eyes scanned and then the things are gonna be assembled in the back

01:08:05   and brought to you and then you're gonna be stepped through by a person a 30-minute experience

01:08:10   and all of that and i i think they've done that now right like they've literally everybody who

01:08:19   wants to see that has seen it um and i think that it's interesting because retail is very sales

01:08:27   focused in a way that maybe they weren't in the early days with ron johnson um where they were

01:08:31   sort of like just the extrusion of apple as a uh an entity and a brand in your community and they're

01:08:37   like it's a place for you to go and like it's not a hard sell place you can just come and use the

01:08:41   computers and they've transitioned into a much more of a that you know everybody is who works

01:08:47   in retail is motivated by sales i would say to some degree or another but what i'm hearing is

01:08:52   that a lot of the feedback that they've gotten is from people who when they're offered a vision pro

01:08:59   experience say they say it's going to be 30 minutes and they're like i don't have that kind

01:09:03   of time and of course they don't you're just somebody in a mall you're walking by you're like

01:09:08   oh yeah i have heard about the vision pro can you show me show it to me and they're like yeah it'll

01:09:12   take about half an hour you're like nope nope nope so my understanding is that um there's been a

01:09:19   little bit of a recalibration which is sort of like if if you can get them in it for five minutes

01:09:25   or 10 minutes great do it and you maybe will keep one here in the drawer that is just like a stock

01:09:33   uh no special lenses and if somebody comes in and they don't need an adjustment you just pull it out

01:09:39   and put it on right you don't make them wait um and so i was thinking about this and it's like

01:09:47   well what what is the goal of the vision pro in the apple retail store and the reason i mentioned

01:09:52   the earlier days where it wasn't all about sales is if i were running the zoo i would do this i

01:10:01   would make it much easier to get that thing on people's faces because first off as a reviewer i

01:10:09   can say i don't recommend the vision pro for people like i don't it costs too much and there's

01:10:14   not enough there the people who should use it are people like us people like developers and people

01:10:19   who really want to be on the cutting edge and don't mind that it costs 3500 it's fine they're

01:10:23   happy to pay that to be to get a taste of the future that's fine but for everybody else like

01:10:27   it's kind of a development platform and a future thing and it's not ready yet so if i'm thinking

01:10:32   about apple retail i'm like we're not going to sell a lot of these and i'm sure that that's what

01:10:36   they found is that they they don't sell a lot of them and that the demo doesn't really um even sell

01:10:43   a lot of them so i would say what is our goal with vision pro in apple retail and i would take a page

01:10:49   from the earlier days of apple retail i would say people coming into apple retail who are curious

01:11:00   about the vision pro let's make it as easy as possible for them to explore it as long as they

01:11:06   want up to the half full half hour and if all i have to do if all i'm able to do is put it on

01:11:13   and let them have a single immersive video experience put it on and have alicia keys start

01:11:19   singing or put it on and see the highline video whatever it is what and then they and then they

01:11:26   take it off and they're like wow that was really cool and they leave the store what have i

01:11:29   accomplished and this is my thought which is they came into the apple store to buy an iphone case or

01:11:35   to buy an ipad or whatever they're curious about vision pro so they're in your ecosystem probably

01:11:40   they're curious about vision pro you let them try it you show off your most impressive thing which

01:11:47   and this is again i think the kind of like mistake about the early days of the vision pro where

01:11:51   they've gone you know they've gone all in on spatial computing as a thing which you know they

01:11:56   may believe in it may also be a combination of what they were able to ship and what they haven't

01:12:00   been able to ship but the fact that it isn't it doesn't really play very many games and the games

01:12:05   it plays are not like the games that you get on a on a quest and it's like no no but it's a computer

01:12:10   right like when somebody's got five minutes to see the vision pro you know what you don't want to do

01:12:16   is show them how to launch an app i i mean you don't okay that's great and all but what i want

01:12:22   to do is if i've got five minutes with somebody is i want to put it on and do the immersive video

01:12:27   thing i want to do the demo reel and then i want to say which one would you like to watch you want

01:12:31   to watch the highline you want to watch elise your keys you won't watch this don't watch the

01:12:34   mls video thing but well you know like what do you want to see i want minimum i just want them to have

01:12:40   some time in immersive video that's what i want because that's that's the platform at its best

01:12:44   that's the thing that's going to blow them away more than anything else i don't need to teach them

01:12:49   to the the window interactions i don't i mean ideally you'd even have it set up to just play

01:12:55   the video when you put it on and i know that's not the full demo i know it's not showing off

01:13:00   all the capabilities of this thing but i think maybe the the goal in retail right now should not

01:13:07   be let's sell a bunch of 3500 headsets that most people don't want it should be you're already in

01:13:12   the apple store you're already in our ecosystem you presumably like apple as a brand here's the

01:13:17   new thing that's totally impractical right now but you can get a taste of it you can see how amazing

01:13:22   it is and then you can keep in the back of your mind oh one yeah apple is where futuristic stuff

01:13:27   happens they are really on this this is why i like apple as a brand is that they're they're looking

01:13:32   at the future and also oh that vision pro i have experienced it if somebody asked me i can say yeah

01:13:36   it was pretty amazing that's good and then yeah maybe in a few years when it's cheaper it's more

01:13:42   affordable there's more stuff for it maybe i will buy one of those because i've experienced it now

01:13:45   and i had a positive experience with it all of that stuff is good none of it leads directly to

01:13:51   a sale in the store um and i think that's okay so if that's what apple is doing here in retail which

01:13:58   is kind of admitting that vision pro is more there to enhance the brand point the way to the future

01:14:04   get people to have a great experience with the product right now because that's the the goal

01:14:10   in five minutes or 10 minutes and not 30 minutes they should totally do that and i hope that that

01:14:17   is a more broad policy that is coming for apple retail because the if you think about the way

01:14:22   that they rolled out the sales where it was 30 minute time slots whole walkthrough how do you

01:14:28   move windows around how do you launch apps it's like first off i totally understand if nobody

01:14:33   wants to spend 30 minutes getting that whole demo lots of us are really busy and we're just in the

01:14:38   mall and i just wanted to get an iphone case but i am curious if you can lower that barrier and get

01:14:44   that thing on their face quickly and have them see an immersive video you've that's a victory even if

01:14:51   they don't buy it it has so many ancillary benefits so i sort of feel like until they've

01:14:56   got something that makes a better case for actually converting to sale that's what they

01:15:01   should do i mean have the 30-minute walkthrough available for people who have the time of course

01:15:07   but go with your best five minutes if you can and and um so i hope that i hope that this is not you

01:15:14   know the people i'm hearing from are sort of like yeah you know we're trying this but we got

01:15:18   indoctrinated in this other way of doing it but now we're doing it this way and like is that good

01:15:21   is that bad and like i think a lot of retail employees are like it's bad because everything

01:15:26   here is about sales now and i think that's culturally going to be a challenge for apple

01:15:31   retail but like this product should not be about sales this product should be about halo it should

01:15:35   be about making people more impressed with apple as a brand as they come in to buy some other apple

01:15:40   product and and also about the future about thinking about vision pro being able to have

01:15:46   a first-hand experience with it the more people who experience that immersive video today are more

01:15:51   people who will be willing to buy a version of it in three years or five years yeah i think it

01:15:56   i agree with this i think it is as important right now to like one person at a time change the public

01:16:01   perception about the product because right now the general public perception is is too expensive

01:16:07   and it is too expensive but wouldn't it be nicer to say like it's really expensive but it's really

01:16:12   cool uh yeah i want one of these i can't afford it but i you know maybe in a few years i'll buy

01:16:16   one because everybody knows the way that apple works i feel like yes you know like if you're

01:16:21   at all even tangentially interested in technology you know there's going to be a cheaper one in the

01:16:26   future that's why that's why i think it's such a great thing to get the demo as a brand extension

01:16:30   as a brand to glow up the brand even more it's like people are already in your store and they

01:16:35   don't have 30 minutes but you can give them five or ten and you can give them an experience that

01:16:39   reinforces their connection to apple as an innovator as a company that makes cool stuff

01:16:44   and as and that the stuff keeps getting cooler yeah even if this isn't for you today it makes

01:16:51   you go oh someday i've seen the future and you presumably will tell people too it's like oh

01:16:58   yeah that vision pro like i like you said i know it's it's too expensive and all but it was amazing

01:17:05   one of these days those those geniuses at apple are gonna do this thing and it's gonna be amazing

01:17:10   when it's 500 i'll buy one and yeah the most most people possible to have that experience should be

01:17:17   the goal and i would wonder if like if you know if you said i can give you five minutes if it's just

01:17:22   going to be video they might not even need to they could create a version you don't even need to do

01:17:26   the eye training exactly that well that's what i was saying is is like you might want to have a few

01:17:32   in in the drawer that literally just go on your face and start playing video and this is like no

01:17:36   setup really you just put it on and as long as you have good enough it measures your pupils yeah and

01:17:42   and it just starts playing yeah yeah and obviously if you need correction then so be it but like if

01:17:46   you don't need correction just make it happen yeah because then it could be like uh uh because that's

01:17:53   also a thing right to get a fuller demo where someone's like wow that was amazing like do you

01:17:57   want to do some more if they say yes like all right we'll just do this quick setup and we'll

01:18:01   start showing you some other stuff like there's there's something interesting in that and you know

01:18:06   what the what if could be a perfect part of the demo too right like that could do that instead

01:18:12   of encounter dinosaurs or something like that i can imagine apple using that kind of stuff

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01:19:58   this show and relay fm it is time for some ask upgrade questions first comes from carl who says

01:20:08   on the mac third-party system utilities and extensions are essential to professional and power

01:20:13   user use apps like alfred clean shot x audio hijack better snap tool and more even if ipad

01:20:21   os was improved there would still be issues and wants for third-party apps like these

01:20:27   do you think apple will ever allow the ability for apps like these to become system utilities on the

01:20:33   ipad i don't think that there's a clear demarcation between like a system utility and a utility like

01:20:40   they're all utilities um i think there's a spectrum i think some of them require apple to provide

01:20:47   access i think some of them require apple to change the way that the operating system works

01:20:51   like number one is allow background tasks right that's number one alfred watches the file system

01:20:58   in the background like i don't know if apple would need to make any changes beyond that right

01:21:03   it's an alfred oh no alfred's a launcher i mean a launcher runs in the background waits for a

01:21:07   global keyboard shortcut and launches it right i was thinking hazel which also like watches

01:21:12   the file system for changes you could do that too i think like uh something like clean shot is using

01:21:18   the screenshot api they might need to or screenshot system they might need to but you can capture

01:21:25   video and you can capture screens so that's already a lot of the stuff is already there

01:21:29   and a lot of these things on the mac especially in recent years apple has been creating more

01:21:33   official ways for things to write like audio hijack which now uses apple's official apis and

01:21:39   okay great see because clean shot used to use the accessibility stuff and now it uses the more

01:21:44   newly created screen capture yeah yeah so a lot of this stuff is there's an api or there's a private

01:21:50   api that apple uses um and that i think a lot of this stuff gets solved primarily by allowing

01:21:55   background um apps and allowing global keyboard shortcuts to be assigned which would also be great

01:22:00   for things like shortcuts um so you know whether they would go to the level of something like

01:22:07   better snap tool um or better touch tool or you know there are going to be subsystems and this is

01:22:15   true on the mac to a certain extent there's going to be subsystems that are harder to get access to

01:22:20   but um i think it's a spectrum i think it's a continuum um and i think some of those apps would

01:22:27   be enabled by apple allowing background tasks and allowing apps to to have access to stuff that

01:22:33   apple's own system uh frameworks do and some of them they're already you can do them but you just

01:22:38   can't do them in the in the background right you you got to be the foreground app which limits

01:22:43   their utility so i hope so i don't have faith in it honestly i don't i don't oh yeah like the

01:22:49   chance that apple would allow this i i think well let me put it this way i think saying ipad os

01:22:56   should allow background tasks to run more aggressively than they do on say an iphone

01:23:04   is a better chance than apple saying we're going to let you virtualize mac os i think i think

01:23:12   background tasks is an ipad os feature that would be would add a bunch of utility and they can afford

01:23:17   to do it because of the hardware and i somebody mentioned on a podcast i don't even remember what

01:23:22   podcast it was like the danger of was marco i think it was marco who said on atp said well

01:23:30   the danger is then you've got stuff running in the background and you know it it changes how you

01:23:36   handle um using an ipad because people can send things in the background and it can kill the

01:23:41   battery life and they're like why did this happen and the answer is you mistakenly sent something

01:23:45   to the background or whatever it's like that's true but i would really hate it that the argument

01:23:50   is well we should never allow on any ipad ever backgrounding because it might cause some problems

01:23:56   to some users it's like i mean well what are we even doing here let's just stop let's stop

01:24:00   selling the ipad pro as well because why yeah um i i believe there are ways that apple can find ways

01:24:06   to do this and communicate to users maybe it only works in stage manager mode right maybe it only

01:24:11   works if you turn on a background task maybe it only works if there's a scare dialogue that says

01:24:17   alert alert this app is going to do this and then you know what if it drains your battery a little

01:24:21   bit and you have to learn that so be it but it adds so much functionality that you can't like

01:24:27   hide away from functionality there's already functionality in ipad os that allows added

01:24:31   complexity and i guess the argument is basically we only should have one and that should be the

01:24:36   lowest common denominator of feature set on ipad os and i just don't agree i think that i don't

01:24:42   think it's an insolvable problem for apple and i think that it's a convenient excuse to say oh well

01:24:50   apple can't add features to the ipad because that would confuse people on low-end ipads or it would

01:24:56   make them not understand it's like well if apple does its job that right that won't happen so let's

01:25:01   not assume that apple would do the job badly let's imagine what if the what if apple did the job well

01:25:05   so that ipads that had lots of ram and lots you know right and a powerful processor could do

01:25:12   background tasks and maybe the ipads that don't can't and i'm okay with that like i'm super okay

01:25:18   with that that sort of thing so i hope someday as one of it really would be a thing that would

01:25:24   unlock a lot of possibilities on ipad os how pessimistic am i about it i don't know i mean

01:25:31   let's see if you'll pick it in the draft next week right yeah probably not

01:25:34   mark says given recent controversies regarding scarlett johanson and open ai and google's new

01:25:41   ai summaries feature do you think apple should go back to using the term machine learning to

01:25:47   avoid comparisons uh apple will use the term ai as long as it's convenient yeah what they only

01:25:55   started using ai when it was convenient right like where they've now rebranded their machine learning

01:26:00   things as ai as ai because everybody's like where's apple on ai and apple's like guys we've had all

01:26:05   this stuff for years and they're like no that's machine learning we're asking you where you are

01:26:08   in ai also it's where we're behind on what people think ai is with the chatbot i mean everyone's

01:26:13   behind on what ai actually is right it's almost yeah so we're we're gonna call this ai because

01:26:20   it makes us look better and they will continue to call it ai until the moment that it doesn't

01:26:24   make them look better and they're again people in the streets with torches and pitchforks about ai

01:26:29   at which point apple will take one step back rebrand everything as machine learning

01:26:32   start to whistle and disappear into a hedge and john says rumors have it that the update to ios

01:26:40   at wwdc this year as we've spoken about earlier will be the biggest update ever do you think it

01:26:45   will be all ai related upgrades if they are i know i'll be really disappointed i'm sure there's a lot

01:26:53   of other stuff in there we talked about the home screen stuff that's not an ai thing i'm sure there

01:26:57   will be plenty of other functions out there um also there's always new features that are machine

01:27:03   learning based right and that they'll just call them ai things now but like photos the photos app

01:27:08   always has new machine learning based stuff and they added the whole thing with the autocorrect

01:27:13   being based on an llm uh or on a transformer model sorry on a transformer model last year so

01:27:19   like they're going to be three classes of things they're going to be some features that are just

01:27:22   features they're going to be some features that would have been there anyway and they're going

01:27:25   to be called ai because they can be and then there'll be some ai features that'll be the

01:27:29   ones that they'll try to make the most hay over but we'll have to see i i think i think maybe

01:27:34   there'll be fewer major new features than in past years because that are not ai because of the push

01:27:41   for ai but i don't think it's going to be like that there aren't features other than ai features

01:27:47   i would also just say and they'll say this to all up gradients try and keep an open mind like don't

01:27:51   be disappointed before wwdc right that like try not to make your mind that like if they talk about

01:27:58   ai stuff at all i'm going to be disappointed like we know they're going to see what they have first

01:28:03   and see how it makes you feel right like they're they're a different thing like ai is different

01:28:08   right like ai uh like machine learning is different to ai generative content you know like

01:28:16   apple's not necessarily going to be trying to replace artists here they might just be helping

01:28:22   you write a text message quicker right like there aren't emoji artists that will go out of business

01:28:29   because you can create weird emoji stickers like they're still going to you know just keep an open

01:28:34   mind i think you'll be happier that way and just see what they've got before we all decide that

01:28:39   it's going to be a disaster and then judge them if you would like to send in a question of your own

01:28:45   for a future episode very easy to do so go to upgrade feedback.com you can also leave us your

01:28:50   feedback and follow up there you can check out jason at sixcolors.com you can hear his shows

01:28:56   here on relay fm and at the incomparable.com the incomparable.com i really i swallowed a couple of

01:29:02   letters there jason incomparable i'll give it another go for you you can listen to my shows

01:29:06   here on relay fm and check out my work cortexbrand.com jason is at jay snell on social media i am at

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01:29:31   we'll be back next week with the draft until then say goodbye jason snow goodbye mike early

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