0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 514 for May 27th, 2024. Today's show is brought to you by
0:00:17Squarespace, Vitaly and Ladder. My name is Mike Hurley, I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason!
0:00:23Hi, Mike! How are you? I'm doing fine. I'm traveling for the long holiday weekend. How's
0:00:29your bank holiday going? I was gonna say, I wondered if you were gonna say, I was thinking
0:00:33about this today. Are you free from banks? If you would say to me, "Happy Memorial Day," and then I
0:00:38would say to you, "Happy early spring bank holiday," which is what this one is technically called.
0:00:44We have so many, they have to give them designations like early spring, late spring,
0:00:48early summer, late summer, you know, or first August bank holiday, second August. Well,
0:00:53congratulations to everybody celebrating the bank holiday, except for the workers and the banks who
0:00:58have to work on the bank holiday. Well, I mean, and podcasters. We do this to ourselves. This is
0:01:04a funny thing where like, I'm sure we've mentioned this a million times on the show for this exact
0:01:08reason where people, you know, I'm working on bank holidays here and people are like, "Oh,
0:01:11you work on the bank holidays?" "Yep, because Jason doesn't." And then, but then I say,
0:01:16"Well, similarly, there's any American, like, what do you call them, public holidays that are
0:01:21on Mondays?" "Jason works them because I'm working." This is the one where we technically both
0:01:26could have just said, "No, let's not bother," but why would we do that? This is the truth. The truth
0:01:30is if either of us has a holiday that we want to take off and move the show, we'll move the show,
0:01:35we'll prerecord it. The problem is then you have to say, "Well, can we do it on Friday?" Or is it,
0:01:41"Can we move it to Tuesday?" And, "Oh, I got to move a thing here and I got to do this there."
0:01:45And in the end, usually you and I look at each other and are like, "Let's just do it." I think
0:01:51Merlin has spoken about this the most, of like, the knock-on effects of one podcast moving.
0:01:57It is, um, it can be disastrous. How many other shows it moves?
0:02:02Because everybody's doing shows of everybody else, so all of the shows start moving.
0:02:08Exactly, and so it's often easier, unless you're traveling. I mean, I'm traveling here and I was
0:02:13able, there's a car trip, I brought lots of stuff with me because I could do that. But,
0:02:20unless you're like, if you're traveling for the holiday and you're truly taking a holiday,
0:02:24then we'll move the show, right? We'll move the show. I didn't have to do this today, but
0:02:29I didn't want to go through that of rescheduling it, so here we are.
0:02:34I have a snow talk question for you that comes from Ryan, and Ryan says,
0:02:39"In what order do you think Apple prioritizes their operating systems,
0:02:44and how would that differ from how you would prioritize them?"
0:02:48Now, for the sake of the question, I have them listed as follows, not in order, but just listed.
0:02:53iOS, iPadOS, macOS, WatchOS, VisionOS, TVOS. So, Jason, what do you think Apple's ranking
0:03:02of priority is for these operating systems, and what would you like it to be?
0:03:06I think it varies. I think it varies based on the life cycle of a product,
0:03:11and I think they also kind of maybe flip a little bit from time to time.
0:03:17So, right now I would say, I mean, iOS is always number one. Right now I would say maybe even
0:03:23VisionOS is number two because it's a product that's still in process of happening, and then
0:03:31I would say... Then I would probably say iPadOS only because it picks up a lot of the work of iOS,
0:03:39so it's coming along for the ride. Then I would say macOS, then WatchOS, and then TVOS.
0:03:47I would 100% agree with you. How would you like them to be ranked?
0:03:52Well, me as a user, me as the CEO of Apple, right?
0:03:58No, you as Jason Snell, you as you. How would you like them to be ranked?
0:04:03Like, in your ideal world, how would you do it?
0:04:07macOS, iPadOS, TVOS, VisionOS, iOS, and WatchOS.
0:04:24That's wild. That's wild ranking. That is incredible. I love it.
0:04:29Apple TV is my only TV box, so if I'm purely greedy... Now, if I was the CEO of Apple,
0:04:33iOS is first. iOS is first. iOS has gotten a lot of love. It doesn't need more love.
0:04:37Yeah, I know. I would do it very differently, but if I'm greedy, the iPhone's fine. The other
0:04:46products need more love, and I know why they don't get them, but they need more love. And TVOS...
0:04:50Shout out to Joe Rosenstiel, who's written many, many, many blog posts about this, but TVOS
0:04:56has so much potential because even though that box is more expensive than the competition,
0:05:01it's like the hardware is so much better. There's so much that could be improved about it,
0:05:05and it just doesn't get better. And I use it every day, so I would like it to be way better than it
0:05:12is, and the potential's there, but it's just not there. I mean, truth is I'd probably rate VisionOS
0:05:17highly because I think that there's a lot of potential there, and I think they just desperately
0:05:20need to improve it. All right, my personal ranking would be, in my ideal world, iOS, macOS,
0:05:30iPadOS, VisionOS, WatchOS, TVOS. And while I similarly love TVOS, the things I want them to
0:05:40do for TVOS, I don't think they're going to be able to do them because it requires Netflix and stuff.
0:05:46- Well, if you make it a priority, you make a deal with Netflix, right?
0:05:49- Then I would flip... Okay, in that regard, I'll flip TVOS and WatchOS. WatchOS, I don't really
0:05:54need to do anything. It's fine for me as it is. I'm good with it. Because again, if I was in charge,
0:06:02there would be another operating system called FitnessOS, and I would put that on a band with
0:06:08no screen. But yeah, that's where I would go. For me, iOS, I think is... It is the most important
0:06:18still, and I would still put it that way because the work of iOS will inform all the other OSes,
0:06:24and I think it will only ever work that way. I can't imagine macOS features really influencing
0:06:32iOS as heavily as iOS can influence macOS. That's how I would waterfall it.
0:06:36- All right.
0:06:37- Thank you to Ryan for that great question. If you would like to send in one of your own,
0:06:43please go to upgradefeedback.com, and you can send in a Snell Talk question to help us
0:06:48open an episode of Upgrade. A little bit of follow-up. First off, I would like to thank
0:06:54all of the listeners and the Upgradients who are the same, one and the same, who wrote in
0:06:58via various means to give us lovely comments about the new show artwork.
0:07:02I'm very happy with it, and I'm happy that people love it too. Looks good.
0:07:06- We did a little fix on the Upgrade+ art for Upgrade+ members.
0:07:14There's a funny story here that it was using the tagline from the... And the tagline's
0:07:20a kind of superfluous, and you have to look for them, but it was using the tagline from
0:07:23the main show instead of the little cheeky extra word, so I put that word back in in
0:07:28the Photoshop file. And I also noticed when people were posting them that in our old Upgrade+
0:07:33show art, we capitalized all the things in the tagline, whereas in the regular show art,
0:07:38we didn't. So it was like up style on the one, and it was inconsistent for years.
0:07:44- Oh, look at that. Steven. - Who? Steven.
0:07:46- Steven made all of the membership show up. - Ah, well, he blew it, but I fixed it.
0:07:53- Well, maybe it was me. - So there it is. Now it should be perfect.
0:07:55- It's either me or Steven that could be perfect for that.
0:07:57- All right, the dereliction of the owners, but it has been corrected, and the responsible
0:08:02parties don't even know who they are. - No, it's impossible to know.
0:08:05- Very important stuff here. Super important. - It might be possible to know, actually.
0:08:08I'll see if I can try and find out the answer to that. Maybe there's some kind of provenance
0:08:12to the file somewhere. - It's nice that people like it.
0:08:15It was, I like, I'm very happy that we refreshed it without changing it, essentially, because that
0:08:19was the brief, right? Like, you and I both were very happy with our logo. We just didn't want it
0:08:23to, we just felt like it needed some improvement. - Yeah, it needed a refresh.
0:08:28- Yeah, it's skeuomorphic now. - Carlos wrote in and said,
0:08:32"Listening to your discussion about the iPhone slim, I am thinking that this kind of market
0:08:37segmentation damages the iPhone brand. When I had an iPhone 5, if you had the latest iPhone,
0:08:43you had the best iPhone. It democratized the best in the world. But now, the regular iPhone just
0:08:48means you can't afford the quote-unquote good ones. I wonder if it's worth it for Apple to go
0:08:53higher in market segmentation and alienate users." - I always love some follow-up from Carlos,
0:09:00because he's a little feisty, and I often disagree with him, but I think he makes interesting points.
0:09:07I feel like the existence of the, well, first off, I question the premise that it just means
0:09:12you can't afford the good ones, because I know a lot of people who buy the iPhone 15,
0:09:17and it's not because they can't afford the 15 Pro. It's that they don't think that's a good use of
0:09:21their money. Like, for them, the cheaper phone is fine, and that the Pro is like, "What am I really
0:09:27getting out of it?" And there are other people for whom it's like, not a question, just like,
0:09:30"Pay the most, want the best." And so that's, I think, good market segmentation. I think similarly,
0:09:35if you're Apple and you have the opportunity to make a $2,000 phone that feels like the future,
0:09:40but no, and you're like, "Well, we can't make the iPhone $2,000, right? We can't do it. It will be
0:09:46disastrous." But what we could do, and I'm making up that number, but like, just, it's a proxy for
0:09:50a big number, way more than the current phones. Well, you can't replace the iPhone right now,
0:09:56but you could make that phone if you're capable and sell it and get people a taste of the future,
0:10:02and some portion of your audience will buy it. I don't buy the premise that the iPhone's success
0:10:09is based on the fact that everybody gets the same one, because that hasn't been true for several
0:10:15years, and the iPhone is still successful. And in fact, there are people who are perfectly happy
0:10:19to buy the cheaper model because they don't feel like they need to buy all those features. They're
0:10:23not going to use all those features, or they don't want all those features, and they'll save a little
0:10:26bit of money, and it makes them feel good about buying the iPhone of their choice. I don't think
0:10:30there are a lot of iPhone 15 and 14 owners going, "Oh man, I don't like this phone. I wanted the
0:10:35good phone, but I couldn't afford it, so I just got this." I don't think that's the case. I think
0:10:39that's a different market segment. But even if there are, I don't think Apple cares, and I think
0:10:44that the results have borne out. Well, they haven't lost sales over it, I don't think, right?
0:10:50The thing about aspirational goods is in the name. They will make expensive, full-featured iPhones,
0:10:57because people will, the majority of people, will want to buy them, and either will, or they will
0:11:03look to the point when they can, and they will just look forward to when they can make that
0:11:07purchase. Like, you're a student now, but when you have a job, maybe you'll get the Pro Phone,
0:11:12because you're not having a phone bought for you by your parents who are trying to just get you
0:11:16what they can afford, right? Like, I don't think that, well, honestly, if this was the case,
0:11:23this wouldn't have worked, right? For the last 10 years or whatever that they've been doing
0:11:29the segmentation. 10 years, it's been almost 10 years since the 6 and 6 Plus. And what Apple has
0:11:36proven time and time again is every single time they have a more expensive phone, it always sells
0:11:41the most. In fact, it creates a spike in iPhone revenue when they do. So I don't, I get the idea,
0:11:48I understand how if you can't afford it, that really sucks, but like, Apple's just going to do
0:11:52what makes it the most money, same as pretty much any business that wants to make money.
0:11:56- That's true. And if it was something that caused the iPhone sales to have problems,
0:12:04they wouldn't do it, right? That's the counter argument is if they did this and it led to less
0:12:08money, they would stop. But if it, but it doesn't, it leads to more money.
0:12:14- Nobody knows which models of iPhone sell most more than Apple, right? And so they know.
0:12:20- Yep, they know.
0:12:21- While talking about the iPhone slim, I would like to make a quick correction as pointed out
0:12:25to me by our wonderful video editor, Chip. I attributed the story of the iPhone slim to Jeff
0:12:31Poo. Jeff is an analyst at Hightong International Securities who shared information about the design
0:12:36changes coming to the iPhone 17 lineup as a whole corroborate the idea of a slim iPhone. But the
0:12:42report of the iPhone slim from the information was written by Wayne Ma and Chianna Lu. So Leo,
0:12:48so I wanted to just correct myself there because it's important. Jason, you reviewed the Kobo Libra
0:12:55Color, which we were talking about a couple of weeks ago.
0:12:58- Like how color is spelled in the product name? I think it's Canada.
0:13:02- Oh, what? Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't notice that.
0:13:05- I think they're based in Canada. Yeah, that's what they do.
0:13:06- Put some u's in it.
0:13:07- So it's great. My review is hilarious because when it's in caps, it's O-U-R. And then when I
0:13:12refer to the screen, I just say C-O-L-O-R. It's like, that's just how it is. That's how it's
0:13:17gonna be, folks. - I would like you to say about,
0:13:21like, you know, kind of give a little bit of your thoughts, but my kind of takeaway
0:13:24from your review is essentially the color isn't as good as you'd want it to be,
0:13:28and it makes the screen overall worse. - Yeah, I mean, the screen is too small
0:13:31to read comics, although I did try. I read some Saga from a PDF. The color is like newsprint-y.
0:13:38It's not super vibrant or anything because it's an e-ink screen. It's impressive that e-ink can
0:13:44do color. I mean, there's lots of things that are impressive about the technology,
0:13:51that e-ink can do color at all is really remarkable. But beyond that, like, it's just,
0:13:58it's the same as the previous one, but it costs $40 more. It adds color, which is not
0:14:06very useful in most cases. Color book covers, I guess? And if you do highlighting, you can
0:14:13color code them, which there might be people for whom this is valuable, but I'm somebody who reads
0:14:18books on my e-reader, and I don't understand. Like, $40 more without any other real improvements
0:14:27other than color is not great. They seem to have discontinued the black and white model,
0:14:32which they didn't do for some of their other models, but this one, the old Libra 2, is gone.
0:14:36So unless they're working on a black and white successor, it's really a bummer because now you
0:14:43have to spend $40 more, so it's that much more expensive. And then there's the big issue, which
0:14:49is that color screen is impressive, but its backlight doesn't go as bright. It's not as bright.
0:14:57And the screen itself has a very fine texture, I would say, almost, a pattern on the background
0:15:06that I think is an effect. Some of it might be ghosting. I also have noticed some ghosting where
0:15:12like things from the previous page are not refreshed properly, but some of it I think
0:15:17is just fundamental, which is on the black and white Kobo and on Kindles that are black and white,
0:15:22there's the... It was originally gray, it was really sort of like a black on a gray,
0:15:27and that tone has gotten lighter and the backlight makes it lighter. Well, this thing,
0:15:31there's a lot of contrast on the black and white model, and the color model with these little dots
0:15:35in a pattern that I think is an effect of the color screen and the color layer
0:15:40means the contrast is less. So it gets less bright and there's poorer contrast. And in bright
0:15:46writing, in bright reading environments, I notice this, right? Like I notice it doesn't get as
0:15:52bright. It's not as easy to read as the old model. So in the end, I think it's a disappointment.
0:15:57I despair about the current state of e-readers because Amazon seems to also have kind of voided
0:16:05their high-end button pressing Kindles and they just have the lower-end Kindles now.
0:16:11A lot of the ones that I thought were really good, like the Kindle Oasis, which was expensive but
0:16:21very good, that seems to be gone. The Kobo Libra 2, that is gone and now you have to pay for the
0:16:28color model or you can step up to the Sage, but that's much more expensive. Like I just...
0:16:34there's no... I'm used to there being no excitement in the e-reader space, but now I feel like the
0:16:40e-reader space is aggressively getting worse. And so the Kobo Libra color, like I wouldn't choose it
0:16:45over a Libra 2, honestly, even though I think it is faster and the page is turned faster. And I
0:16:50think there's some nice things about it, but like bottom line is it's not really appreciably better
0:16:54than the model it replaces. It's more expensive and the screen isn't as good. So what are we even
0:16:59doing here? So I'm feeling a lot of despair about the e-reader market right now. Well, you have the
0:17:06savior of the Daylight Computer, right? I've heard from like a half a dozen people at least saying,
0:17:12"Oh, I can't wait to see what Jason says about the Daylight Computer." The Daylight Computer is
0:17:17basically an iPad with a screen that they say is "like e-ink," which that's a red flag. "Like
0:17:24e-ink." What does that mean? I've seen people say it is a black and white LCD display with an amber
0:17:32backlight, not a regular backlight. That's all it is? Yeah. Yeah. That sounds about right. Like,
0:17:38it's not e-ink, right? It's not because they would say if it was. And what also irks me is that some
0:17:45of the hype people around this product, because they've got a really good, I'll give them credit,
0:17:49a really good process of rolling this out where people are talking about it. And coming to me,
0:17:53"Oh, Jason, e-inker, e-paper," whatever they say. Beautiful. They have a very good looking website.
0:17:59Their video is, I think it's a sandwich video. Is there a launch video? Oh, really? Yeah, but it
0:18:04rolls, it makes me roll my eyes because it's all about like, "Oh, we're addicted to our screens,
0:18:08and this is going to free you from your screens." I'm like, "Come on." But like, so these are the
0:18:12red flags. It's making a lot of claims about, "Oh, we're addicted to our screens," which
0:18:16people like their screens. I don't, I really can't stand the "we're addicted to our screens,
0:18:21here's another screen." Yeah, I know, but our screen is a different screen. It's like e-ink,
0:18:26but not, but not, but it is. So I got a lot of red flags. It might be an interesting product.
0:18:30It's iPad-sized, it's black and white, e-ink-like, but not. It's got a stylus. You can attach a
0:18:36keyboard. It runs Android, but they've customized it. You know, then again, I reviewed a TCL tablet
0:18:42that I got mostly because they put a matte display protector on it with some, and it had some tweaks
0:18:51of Android where you could put it in a black and white mode where it looked remarkably like a
0:18:55Kindle, except it was an Android tablet. So it's still like full-on refresh rate. And they say,
0:19:01"This one's got a, whatever, 60 hertz refresh rate and all that." It's interesting, but this is
0:19:08a product in the category of the like, "remarkable" or something, or that word processor that uses
0:19:15like an e-ink screen so that you can just focus on your writing. That's the market that strikes me,
0:19:20and there's a lot of woo-woo kind of like, "We're addicted to our screen stuff in that marketing,
0:19:24in that category." And this strikes me as being where it is targeted, which doesn't really
0:19:30interest me at all. And the truth is that I'm interested in, I cover e-readers not because it's
0:19:36an important market that I need to cover as part of my business and my brand. I cover them because
0:19:42I care and nobody else seems to care, or very few other people seem to care, but I care.
0:19:48So I write about it. This product is not in a category that I care about. My only real
0:19:54interest in it is that I have raised an eyebrow at some other marketing, and I can't wait for
0:19:59people who are not getting a sneak peek from the company to actually find out what it is and how
0:20:07it really works, because I would love to know the choices they've made to allow them to make
0:20:14the claims they're making, but for me, there's zero interest. I would rather use an iPad,
0:20:21and as an e-reader, I would rather use a Kindle or a Kobo or a Books Palma or whatever, right?
0:20:27Like any of the above, but not... I'm interested. I would love to try the product. Like, I would love
0:20:32them to send me one. I actually reached out to them and said I would like to try one. Like,
0:20:37I'm not going to spend the $700 on two of those. Gruber bought one, apparently. Well, the other
0:20:40thing is that, yeah, I'm also not going to buy one. I think there is, in addition to... I mean,
0:20:46there is a marking up PDFs market, right? That is one of the things that frustrates me about
0:20:50the e-reader market is they keep getting bigger and they keep adding pens, and I don't care,
0:20:55but I understand... But also, like, you know, me and Gray were talking about this on Cortex.
0:20:59Like, they're doing it, but it's still not good enough. Like, you know, they're making the screens
0:21:04bigger. They're adding pens, but getting PDFs on a lot of these devices is still very complicated
0:21:09and, like, not as easy as putting it on an iPad. Right. Right. Advantage of the Kobo is it supports
0:21:14Google Drive and Dropbox now, which is kind of nice. And it's got a pen, apparently, but I don't
0:21:20want it and I don't care, right? Anyway, so there... I understand what's happening here,
0:21:24which is the e-reader market itself is not very big. And so they are trying to find other markets.
0:21:28And people marking up documents is... And now the pen technology is such that you can get...
0:21:35You can integrate that into your product and build something that potentially has another market to
0:21:41it. Now, I think the truth is for marking up documents with a pen, you probably want a much
0:21:46larger screen than the kind of screen that I want. And this product has it. And that's one way where
0:21:52this product might be interesting. I mean, you and I both... And it runs Android, which is great.
0:21:56And it runs Android. That's the way to do this. You know, we know David Sparks. Like, David,
0:22:00in his attorney job especially, like, one of the things that, like, a lot of attorneys and other
0:22:04people do lots of paperwork, they use the iPad to do this. Here's the other thing, though, again,
0:22:08I will say is, yes, very impressive. Long battery life, apparently. Black and white screen. Doesn't
0:22:14have the big backlight shining in your eyes. Okay, great. I can see why this might be an interesting
0:22:19use case. Although, again, at that point, I think... Or you could just use an iPad and an
0:22:24Apple Pencil. But, hey, interesting idea, but not anything I would consider as an e-reader. It's a
0:22:33totally different category of product that I... Yeah, no, thank you. Next week, it's the draft.
0:22:40The WWDC draft. We're here already. It's kind of unbelievable. Like, looking at my next couple
0:22:47of weeks, like, oh, yeah, here we go. It's ramping up now. WWDC is just around the corner. So, next
0:22:50week on the show, we're going to be drafting. Could be the biggest draft ever. We're actually
0:22:55going to talk about it in Upgrade Plus. So, go to getupgradeplus.com if you haven't signed up
0:22:58already. Get longer ad-free episodes of the show. Thank you to everybody that has. We really
0:23:04appreciate you. But we're actually going to talk about the categories because this one's different.
0:23:09Obviously, with the introduction of AI and stuff like that, I think we're going to have to... And
0:23:13VisionOS. We're going to have to talk about how we're going to set our categories. And so, our
0:23:18picks are usually me and Jason. We did this in a frenzy in Slack. But instead, today, I thought,
0:23:22why not talk about it in Upgrade Plus? This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,
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0:25:42show and all of Relay FM. Room around up time. It's that time again partner. So got a bunch of
0:25:50stuff for you. I'm gonna start with a report from Mark Germin with some details about WWDC
0:25:57announcements and his power on newsletter. So got a few things here. Focus in a couple of areas
0:26:02starting with AI in Apple's platforms mostly in iOS 18 and Mac OS 18 is where 15. They should make
0:26:12the numbers the same I think. They should. I think they should do that. All the other platforms right
0:26:16it's the same they like tvOS will be tvOS 18. So why is Mac OS 15? Let's just make it 18 because
0:26:23really technically Mac OS is on to like version 50 or something right? Yeah it's because the year
0:26:29that they went to Mac to iOS 11 and I said spinal tap would appear WWDC. They said no no no no we're
0:26:37just going to keep it at 10 when that was the perfect year to make it Mac OS 11 and because of
0:26:41that we're now in this ridiculous situation where they waited four years and it's just come on for
0:26:45three years. So yeah. So Apple will have a system on devices that will decide if a task needs to be
0:26:52completed on device or in the cloud depending on the complexity of it. A quote from Mark Germin,
0:26:58"Most of the on device features will be supported by chips released in the last year or so. The cloud
0:27:03component will be powered by M2 Ultra chips located in data centers." I had a thought this
0:27:08morning that made me upset. I don't want to upgrade my MacBook Air, my M2 MacBook Air. I don't want to
0:27:15do that. I really hope I don't have to do that. Right. Yeah. Yeah it would yeah that there may be
0:27:24some consternation if the Mac like I understand if they say only iPhone 15 Pro and later gets this
0:27:33and otherwise it's in the cloud like I would understand that and there's an Apple Watch
0:27:37better performance mention that he has here and I thought well that's going to be for the on device
0:27:42engine which only runs on the Series 9 and the Ultra 2 right. I see it like okay great but yeah
0:27:50they say oh this can't run locally on an M1 or M2 Mac you know there may be rioting in the streets.
0:27:58Yeah I imagine uh stage manager all over again. Yeah yeah. Siri will be upgraded with quote
0:28:07more natural sounding interactions uh with better performance on Apple Watch for completing tasks
0:28:15that are focused on platform as well. This we spent some time on this last week I think I
0:28:21think there are two problems with Siri. We talk about the problems with Siri. I think there are
0:28:29two problems with Siri when people have problems with Siri. One of them is you just try you're
0:28:34just trying to get everyone's devices to go off. Why are you saying it so many times? Okay well I
0:28:40mean whatever turn off well Mike the fact is everybody's turned it off so um just real quick
0:28:47can I just I just said hey watch out I'm sorry uh Adina was watching Lute on Apple TV and they
0:28:56someone said Siri and it set her phone off. Oh man it's like even the product integrations are
0:29:01ruining people's experiences. Yeah you cannot have you cannot have the hey and it goes off too well.
0:29:06My my dog is named the two vowel sounds of the trigger phrase so I've had that happen a lot.
0:29:16Anyway um here are the two problems with un with that device that I set off 10 times in the last
0:29:22two minutes. One problem is the conversational problem right it's that you have to code your
0:29:31question and word it in a right in the right way it's really uncomfortable to do sometimes and if
0:29:36it missed if it doesn't understand it or it gets it wrong it just fires off some sort of ridiculous
0:29:42thing and then you can't really get it back you kind of have to start again and it's very
0:29:46frustrating so something like an llm and that would be better at understanding your context
0:29:53and being able to answer follow-up questions and being able to focus and and correct things and
0:29:59have a conversation with you that gets to the result of what it needs you know to give you
0:30:04the result that you want great like that's so that's one part of it and then the other part
0:30:09of it is bad results right which is I think part of the first part but also has to do with the data
0:30:14sources and how and the fact that it punts things to the web too often right and things like or or
0:30:21or can't answer it on a home pod because you've got to have your phone there right so I feel like
0:30:27the the way that this report is phrased I read that as being that they're trying to make the
0:30:32conversation with the agent better which is great yeah that leaves us with the other part which is
0:30:39first off a question which is if the agent better understands you and what you want
0:30:45are the data sources in siri sorry uh okay are they are they good enough if the agent is more
0:30:54intelligent maybe but I still think that there are those things where it's like oh I need to look on
0:30:59the web for this uh and that may be that's the that's the part two and is that where partners
0:31:05with other llms come in and is it again there's the mystery of llm integration which you know would
0:31:12would they would see no you can say I wasn't saying you couldn't say it was just funny to
0:31:17me that you said it like five times in a row yeah well I'm just trying to beat it into submission
0:31:22would uh would siri be able to use some of those llms as a data source and say hey I am now asking
0:31:30you to give me this thing but you know who I am right and you know what I want right and then have
0:31:35it come back you know with something that it parses and says I talked to my friend GPT and it
0:31:42says this uh would that be better so I mean we'll we'll see how they the story of how they choose to
0:31:49implement this uh but I still get a little bit of the willies that we're gonna get a siri that we're
0:31:54gonna be like finally they fix siri and then we're gonna look at what they do and we're gonna go did
0:31:57you fix it really uh mark says xcode will get ai enhancements this is what we're all thinking
0:32:05that happened last year right like yeah this is the co-pilot thing which is that programmers have
0:32:11and I mean I've done this with python scripts like it's you look at code repositories and samples of
0:32:17code and how things do things and instead of finding a web you know okay let's just say it
0:32:21instead of going to stack overflow and finding the three questions that seem to be your question and
0:32:26the answers and trying to parse which one actually works and makes sense for you and there's a jerk
0:32:31in the comments who says no you did it wrong and then this one gets upvotes and all of that
0:32:35what it turns out that uh an ai parsing all of those and just giving you the answer can be more
0:32:43efficient maybe not more effective but often more effective and so having more of those tools in the
0:32:49development tools totally makes sense because it's it's kind of a proven concept this can be helpful
0:32:54for programmers ai generated emoji so based on conversations that you're having the system may
0:33:05be able to create new emoji that do not exist that you could use yeah now my expectation is this is
0:33:13not emoji these are stickers we've been here before yes although I did have that moment
0:33:19because you and I both know jeremy birch uh emoji pedia emeritus yep and so we know a lot of things
0:33:27about emojis that most people don't know including the fact that many emojis are actually put together
0:33:31these days with combinations of unicode code points so instead of saying there's a code number
0:33:38for firefighter male and a code number for firefighter female and a code number for fire
0:33:45fighter neutral gender instead there's a code for firefighter and then you follow it with a
0:33:53male symbol or a female symbol or a neutral symbol and or maybe the firefighter is neutral by default
0:34:00and you modify it but regardless that a lot of emoji are built that way so you end up with I
0:34:05think the lime emoji is literally the lemon followed by green square yeah and it turns into
0:34:11that so I did have a moment where I thought would they do that would they just sort of like say what
0:34:17are all the other ways I can combine emojis and build art for them and then just like do it that
0:34:21way but I think you're right probably it's stickers probably they've got an emoji generator I'm basing
0:34:26this on all of apple's look at this emoji we made started with me emoji then likes to stickers in
0:34:33general like they've always added them as stickers and of course now you have the emoji as stickers
0:34:38thing anyway as I as of iOS 17 I can imagine that it will create things that look like emoji but put
0:34:45them in your images yeah right because again they're not going to be able to send them as
0:34:50actual emoji because it wouldn't work actual emoji don't exist yeah and also if you were sending that
0:34:55to a different platform or in a different app like a previous version of the OS yeah so it would just
0:35:01there'll be stickers and I reckon there will be smart recaps of notifications messages web pages
0:35:07notes and other types of content so you can ask the platform like hey you know what was that
0:35:13message or catch me up that kind of thing I expect Mark Gurman says that apple will not have
0:35:19a chatbot of its own it will rely on partnerships this is not stated by Gurman or really anyone yet
0:35:25as to how exactly this will work like is it right what you were saying earlier that that siri will
0:35:30go and ask or is it that the chatgpt app is installed on your phone or is you know like or
0:35:35you just get thrown to a ui who knows this is what I was thinking is I actually even wonder if it
0:35:40might be something you wouldn't necessarily need partnerships but like if it's integrated with the
0:35:44system there could be it's in spotlight or siri will ask I was thinking the other way you could
0:35:52do this is have an API and let because one of the things that some people want is to like trigger
0:35:59this from other places so maybe you could even build an API that's like if you if you offer a
0:36:03chatbot service you do this API and then people can choose their default chatbot and it we we
0:36:10built some UI around it but it's a real question it's an interesting idea of how do they deeply
0:36:14integrate this because the chatbots are on iOS now they're just not super integrated they're just
0:36:18apps but how does apple choose to integrate them if it chooses to grant them some special privileges
0:36:25that you know that because they're going up against android where gemini is going to be deeply
0:36:30integrated so that's that's the challenge that they've got is how do we provide users with
0:36:36whatever it is that they want from these things so that we don't look like we're behind google in
0:36:43terms of the integration I mean as well like since we since our last show microsoft showed up a bunch
0:36:49of stuff of their own which is very interesting you know the new devices throughout windows windows
0:36:55that they're using and I the the last thing that is mentioned by mark german is that these AI
0:37:02features may be labeled as a preview either up until release or post post release as the more
0:37:09we're finding out the more we're getting these little reports and then the more we're seeing
0:37:15from apple's competitors the more I'm like oh boy I don't think this is gonna go very well
0:37:21I remain hopeful that there's stuff that we haven't seen and the implementations may be
0:37:26really cool but apple's competitors are going very hard on this and and I'm not sure how they're
0:37:34gonna stack up well think about so think about how long it takes to build these things you know
0:37:41longer than a few months and the german report is that apple was caught flat-footed and had to
0:37:48change direction last year so if apple yeah if we look at the announcements at wwc and are like
0:37:57I mean there's something there but they're still not at the level of what google's doing in android
0:38:01and what microsoft is doing in windows I I don't think that that's a an oh boy they blew it now
0:38:12I think that's more like we now can see the fact that they were caught flat-footed a year ago
0:38:20because of the the catch-up time so like it's like even apple can't go like microsoft and google had
0:38:27such a head start because they took this more seriously microsoft you were with open ai and
0:38:33google with its own stuff and then apple was like oh geez uh okay we need to do this now and nine
0:38:39months later I would not be surprised if it's the best they could do in nine months but they're not
0:38:46going to be able to necessarily match if they were truly caught flat-footed what microsoft and google
0:38:51have been doing because microsoft and google were not caught flat-footed they have been at a
0:38:55at a run already and that means apple will be it will expose how far behind apple was last year
0:39:04right is what I'm saying and that is something we don't know for sure but the reports suggest that
0:39:10they are and and up to now we've been like well is apple behind because there's nothing really out
0:39:14there but when you see how gemini is integrated with android and you see what microsoft is doing
0:39:18with it with copilot this summer it may become apparently clear exactly how far behind apple is
0:39:25and then you know I think can they catch up sure I think they can but that's I think what we're
0:39:32going to learn this summer is how how slow did apple get off the blocks when they realized that
0:39:39they needed to actually integrate this everywhere like their competitors mar german also says that
0:39:46the some of the homescreen improvements that we'll see is the free placements of apps and widgets
0:39:51which you'd heard before and the ability for a user to change the color of app icons developers
0:39:57will probably hate this but this is the this is the aesthetic thing where I mean they're already
0:40:01doing this like I saw somebody say I hate this and then somebody else said yeah but they're already
0:40:06doing it right because we know that people have all sorts of ways of building you build a shortcut
0:40:11to an app that uses a custom icon and then you can have all of your icons be green or all of your
0:40:16icons be pink or have them color coded I love the example the bloomberg-iest of examples which is
0:40:23finance apps can all be green like money oh yes oh you you're you're letting your monocle and top
0:40:30hat slip a little bit there mr bloomberg but uh sure a patented mike hurley guarantee on this one
0:40:37okay this will be an api and only independent developers will opt in that is what I that's
0:40:43what I think oh oh the developers are gonna have to opt in to allow uh customization of their icons
0:40:50you know interesting okay that's an well put that on the draft I know google did it with material
0:40:55you that's great that's fine I don't think that's how I think it will be different I think that this
0:41:00is how Apple will do it because I just can't imagine a scenario because I also don't think
0:41:05that it really makes any sense like a brand chooses its colors right and then they're just
0:41:10like oh forget it like you know what if an apple podcast they were like opt in and people could
0:41:15change the look of your show artworks and no I don't want people to do that we have chosen how
0:41:19we want our show artwork to look exactly so here is my counter prediction you're like I love it
0:41:26counter prediction um here it is what they're gonna do is they're gonna have one of the sessions
0:41:31and I love these sessions I watch these videos I love them where they're like you know it's
0:41:35the videos that are changes in emoji and changes in how icons work and and and uh changes in widget
0:41:42design I love those design they're design sessions where it's like technical but it's also design
0:41:47I bet that they will have a new approach to app icons that will say um you know users can choose
0:41:56my guess is choose from a palette of colors and that you as a developer can supply
0:42:03alternate icons for each palette or designate a layer of your icon as customizable and that the
0:42:14system will change that layer based on the palette that's you know what that makes sense actually
0:42:21where it's like oh by the way this isn't a choice but I think you're I think you're right that it's
0:42:27not going to be like would you like us to just run a filter on the slack icon to turn it into a
0:42:32different color I don't think they will go that far but it'll be more like hey colorful icons
0:42:39everybody's getting in the game here's how you participate and it's either you can meticulously
0:42:44choose every single icon or you can do this thing where you're like I gotta here's this layer you
0:42:51know the letter in our logo can be any color right it's like okay great wonderful okay that's
0:42:56an I like that I like that so maybe it's time to lawyer up clunk clunk oh I like that I like that
0:43:06it's a law and order kind of thing right yeah that's fun that's fun I like the sound effects
0:43:13that go with every chapter I had a friend text me the other day and say oh I was listening to upgrade
0:43:18I haven't listened in a while and there's a lot there's a lot of uh a lot of segments not yet
0:43:25that's verticals that's verticals we've been we've been doing it since the beginning though
0:43:28the verticals we kind of went away from it a little bit now we got more now we got more
0:43:32verticals we're back with the verticals I love structure I know you don't do in my podcasts
0:43:38makes amazing in the world of technology there are two parties the regulators and apple this is their
0:43:45story clunk clunk on bluebird profiled the developers of the alt store and their journey
0:43:52so far in this article it mentions that alt store pow has already passed a hundred thousand downloads
0:43:58in the eu yeah this is a fun story if you've got access to bloomberg I highly recommend it
0:44:03um mr bloomberg with his top hat in this monocle um it is great the thing I love about it the most
0:44:10is that is that riley test it and his business partner uh they're like in their mid to late 20s
0:44:16in order to establish their european branch and do their work and develop their app
0:44:22they've just been living in europe for a while and like going airbnb's in various places they're in
0:44:27amsterdam they're in copenhagen they're in dublin they're like and there's literally a quote in the
0:44:33story that's like I want to go home yeah but but they they want to they want to do this it's a it's
0:44:39a fun it's just a fun look into all the effort that is required to try and make this happen and
0:44:46it's got that really nice moment where they're about ready to launch and then apple says oh
0:44:50delta emulators can just be in the store and they're like ah which really hits home about
0:44:55how much that was a move to cut them off at the knees from launching their thing by putting it in
0:45:03the regular app store but they did it they're like okay we'll put in the app store and then of course
0:45:07it goes to number one uh yeah it's a good story it's a really good story but I just like the idea
0:45:12that they want to go home but they can't because they gotta keep doing things in europe uh shane is
0:45:17the name of riley's shane yeah they need to I think they just need to hire a uh I they probably
0:45:23don't have the they need to hire a part-time like european beard right like I mean I mean it's
0:45:29possible right like maybe I who knows what they may have actually ended up having to do or will
0:45:35end up having to do but you can't test this stuff outside of europe is the is the thing because your
0:45:42phones are then I mean I guess yeah right I don't know shuttling back and forth you can't you can't
0:45:47actually my understanding is that a lot of this stuff is not testable outside of europe if you're
0:45:51a developer so because apple's not apple's not gonna make it easy big surprise that's the other
0:45:57thing that I really got out of it and then there's another note you're about to mention which is it's
0:46:02very clear too that this is apple making it as difficult as possible every step of the way because
0:46:07this is your malicious compliance right which is they'll do it but they're not going to be happy
0:46:11and they're not going to make it easy uh on mastodon riley tester has said that the notarization
0:46:16process from apple is taking multiple weeks even though apple would originally said they could
0:46:21expect notarization to happen within a few hours yeah that's not good how about that good this is
0:46:27not good yeah I think riley suggested that if you don't like this contact the european commission
0:46:32which is like yeah I mean you should people should do it and and I hope that I hope that
0:46:36they're making a complaint too because this isn't right I was listening to last week's accidental
0:46:41tech podcast and um they had a conversation about emulators and not things we talked about about
0:46:48like not having a just-in-time compiler be allowed and all that stuff and it just struck me again
0:46:52that the real issue here is if I have to like completely simplify it is it's a different thing
0:47:03being a developer if all you can do is do all of your work for a particular platform
0:47:10put it in front of the platform's council of you know of elders and have them say yes or no
0:47:17and if they say no you have zero recourse right like if you say no your thing is dead because
0:47:26it doesn't run anywhere else it's built for that platform and they won't tell you up front whether
0:47:32you can have it and and I mean I guess the story was that riley talked to somebody at apple and
0:47:37probably in developer relations who said no that'll no problem that'll be great and then
0:47:41he submitted delta and they're like no you can't do this so why because we say so okay um which is
0:47:47the same with that clip utility which the bloomberg article says um why is this not allowed um because
0:47:54apple says so and then apple's response is something like oh apple totally allows clipboard
0:47:58managers that protect the privacy of the user by which they mean don't work um and I just this is
0:48:04the this is the core frustration that goes to all of this which is all of this would be solved
0:48:09all of this would be solved if there was a fallback like there is on the mac where the default is
0:48:20everything's locked up tight everything comes through the app store that's your only option
0:48:25but there is a secondary world where you can turn on and get all of the scare dialogues and
0:48:33apps can live there too like on the mac and apple doesn't want to do that but like when when I was
0:48:42thinking about riley's delta story I thought oh wow you know the fact is today if you get rejected
0:48:47with your app that you built on ios apple says no well you can't release that app except in europe
0:48:55where you totally can and i thought wow see see there's a little glimmer there of what this is
0:49:00and i know there are lots of issues and a lot of people have strong opinions about this but i think
0:49:04fundamentally that's that's what this is about is apple like why invest in developing for this
0:49:12platform if apple can capriciously kick you out at any point um you know and without without
0:49:17recourse right again it's not i have no problem with apple saying no we don't want this kind of
0:49:22app in our store great we don't want it in our default platform because of security reasons it's
0:49:27locked down fine but when there's no alternative and in the eu there is now so that's that's good
0:49:34but i don't i don't like the idea that yes oh well we have this you know this is this is actually was
0:49:39the huge fear about um the huge fear when they did notarization on the mac was that apple would use
0:49:46it as a de facto app approval system and fortunately notarization on the mac has actually been very
0:49:51smooth but what they said in the eu about notarization for ios apps that were going
0:49:55outside the app store was well it's going to be more intensive of our process which i can see the
0:50:02why right like it's not fundamentally unreasonable however multiple weeks per app is completely
0:50:12unreasonable yep the set app mobile app marketplace has entered invite only beta as they prepare to
0:50:20launch their subscription model offering this summer the verge got a look at it and wrote a big
0:50:25piece about it at least at launch setup have said that they will not be charging for their app
0:50:30marketplace they're going to be paying the ctf for marketplace installs themselves so like the 50
0:50:35cents that you need to install the app marketplace setup will just pay that they told the verge that
0:50:41they don't expect app developers to pass the 1 million install threshold for the ctf like it's
0:50:47just not something they're expecting is going to happen very often if at all and i'm sure that
0:50:51they're using their own data of what set up on the mac and set they have like a version on ios
0:50:57which i'm not 100 sure exactly how that works like i know it does work i know existing apps and
0:51:01there's coupons or something it's weird i don't know how they get through that but they do mac
0:51:07poor who makes setup have confirmed that there will be over 30 apps available when the open beta
0:51:13launches uh in a little bit in the summer there's like 17 apps are now yeah yeah so this is you pay
0:51:19you pay for a subscription to set up like you do now you pay for a subscription to the setup
0:51:24at marketplace and um all the apps in it are free at that point right you you you buy them through
0:51:30your subscription instead yep and we may soon learn if and how all of this work with the dma
0:51:38will scale to other countries nine to five mac is reporting that apple may soon need to offer
0:51:43alternative app marketplaces in japan legislation is currently being debated in parliament that
0:51:48could result in a similar set of requirements to the dma basically uh not default app stores
0:51:55there should be other payment options etc etc yeah it is simultaneously dma providing a road map for
0:52:02other i mean we said this was going to happen a road map for other regions other regulators to do
0:52:06what they do it's easy and then more than that well and more than that you know what apple's built
0:52:12right yeah so you if you if you build something that more or less follows what's going on in
0:52:16europe apple doesn't really have a leg to stand on in terms of pleading like oh no it will take us
0:52:21time to do this it's like well you already built it so build it for us now and that that was always
0:52:28the danger that is the thing about what the eu should be congratulated for is that they were able
0:52:34for whatever reason to be able to put the right amount of pressure on apple to make them do it
0:52:38and google and that right and all the other companies that the dma will or will not affect
0:52:43like that it is quite impressive that they were able to do it yeah and now that apple has built
0:52:48because remember these rumors i mean this stuff was discussed more than a year ago that they were
0:52:55going to do this and it was going to take until you know the following year which is now um but
0:53:02the beauty of it is they the eu made them build it made them spend a big part of the ios development
0:53:07cycle on these features and now they exist and now other regions can just say i want that and that
0:53:14that's always been apple's greatest danger is that once the once the features have been implemented
0:53:20it's a lot easier for everybody else to just say yeah give me that i want that the marketplace cat
0:53:26is out of the bag um meow uh apple's also been looking at a new segment marketplace cat no i
0:53:32don't think so uh apple's also been lowering up they're going to challenge the 1.8 billion euro
0:53:39fine that the eu wants it to pay for anti-competitive actions against music streaming
0:53:44services like spotify they're filing a lawsuit at the eu general court this one was obvious that
0:53:49they were going to do this because that is a whopping fine uh and apple has also filed a pre-motion letter
0:53:56to ask a dismissal of the u.s department of justice's antitrust case against them apple is saying
0:54:02that the market share definition is wrong that they do not have monopoly power and they have not
0:54:07harmed consumers basically what are the three things for antitrust that they don't they're not
0:54:11doing any of them uh this is all expected as part of the process that we're going to go through you
0:54:17know when we were talking about this is going to take multiple years this is part of why it's like
0:54:21it was obvious it was to happen um there will be many amounts of back and forth now to see if it
0:54:26will not be dismissed we'll find out later on this year or early next year as to whether a dismissal
0:54:31will work for apple or not if it doesn't the trial stuff begins yeah and that's why we ordered art
0:54:38for lawyer up because this is a segmented show
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0:56:07i want to do a vision pro check-in with you jason how often are you using a vision pro
0:56:14uh varies widely um there was a span of about a week and a half where i didn't use it at all and
0:56:21then i was like oh yeah vision pro let's get back on and then you know and got it started back up
0:56:25again um but i did actually have i'd say yeah i'd say it's maybe a couple of days a week um i
0:56:33i had some there's some work going on in our house and it's and i work at our house so it's extremely
0:56:41disruptive extremely disruptive to my work and at one point i needed to write i think it was a mac
0:56:50world column and i just like i had to blot out the world and i i got the bluetooth keyboard and
0:56:59i actually sat in the bedroom on the bed with my headphones in my airpods noise canceling music
0:57:04playing for some of it and wrote that whole article on the vision pro which i hadn't done in a
0:57:12in maybe a month um and it was really great i was reminded and then when i was done i was like i'm
0:57:17just gonna stay in here for a little while and look at some stuff and all of that and be reminded
0:57:21about it i think the challenge with vision pro right now for me is i need more reasons to put
0:57:26it on yes i need more kind of things and this is the challenge with the platform right now is
0:57:31it needs more juice it needs more content it needs more reasons to use it it needs more features and
0:57:39i you know i i it's fine right like i get it it is a uh a new platform that's really just kind
0:57:48of starting but that's about that's sort of where i am with it is if there's new content i will go
0:57:52watch it and if there's a very particular thing where i want to kind of block out the world i will
0:57:57use it but um also it's a little of that is artificial like the ipad pro took up all of my
0:58:03bandwidth for a couple of weeks where i just use the ipad pro all the time and and anytime i would
0:58:08be like well i could do this on the like i was watching i was gonna watch something on the vision
0:58:13pro and then i thought i i gotta watch this on the oled screen on the ipad pro because i need that as
0:58:17another data point i need more video that i'm watching on the ipad pro so some of it is that how
0:58:21are you doing with yours uh i use mine once or twice a week for a few hours at a time usually and
0:58:28and i similarly to you i use it more when there's a thing that gets me there and then i'll use it
0:58:35for a long period of time right yes and so for me i've watched every episode of xmen 97 on division
0:58:42pro so every wednesday i was sitting down watching uh an episode for 30 minutes and then using it for
0:58:48like another hour an hour and a half like because when i'm in the vision pro i just want to spend
0:58:54time in it like i love what i say it's the perfect noodling computer i'm like over here checking this
0:58:59message i'm over here looking at this like i really like it like if imagine how like for a
0:59:04lot of people i expect you may be similar to me uh if you if you when you're on an ipad you're kind
0:59:10of like spending some time on it you're like checking what's on this app what's on that app
0:59:14what's in my rss like that's how i love to use division pro it's like the ultimate ipad in that
0:59:20way with like and i find it very engaging like the operating system looks really great like it's kind
0:59:26of general procrastinating or as i like to call work procrastinating like you're just kind of
0:59:32you're doing little jobs it's the stuff i would be doing anyway but i'm doing it here instead of there
0:59:36and it's fantastic for that i i agree 100 with your perception which is i need a reason to put
0:59:41it on but once i put it on i'm like oh yeah well while i'm here i'm gonna do this thing and that
0:59:45thing and all that because it's really fun but you do need it's enough of a leap where like i
0:59:49don't have it like hanging out where i'm like i'm just gonna flip this thing right on it's more like
0:59:53am i going to use the vision pro yeah i'm gonna do that i'm gonna get set somewhere with it and
0:59:56i'm gonna put it on i'm gonna get it all hooked up and i'm gonna be ready to go and once i'm over
1:00:02that hump i'm like i don't want to leave honestly for for some period of time and similarly for me
1:00:07in here if i have to write something longer than an email i'm putting the vision pro on because
1:00:11i find it to be really helpful for helping me stay focused because it's so visually engaging and like
1:00:17audio engaging to use so but there is new content so this is one of the one of the reasons i wanted
1:00:24to talk today is there's three things content wise which for the vision pro is like it's like ice
1:00:31water in the desert right now so the first thing i saw sigmund judge who's the host of magic rays
1:00:38of light on max stories on mastodon said that the experience immersive trailer been updated so this
1:00:45is like the sizzle reel and this it's all new there's so much stuff that's in this now so they
1:00:53have um more sports stuff so there is a golf shot there is uh content from the super bowl wow and
1:01:00the nbr all-star nba all-star game wow in this now there's more soccer there's more human interest
1:01:07stuff there's like hot air balloons and there's people uh wild swimming and there's more wildlife
1:01:12content there's so much more stuff it's like a new sizzle reel it seems like they're getting
1:01:20ready for a bit of a relaunch maybe to more people like there's a ton of content yeah that is not
1:01:27available in full form right so like the original immersive trailer i think everything that was in
1:01:34there essentially except some of the sports stuff but that all came out in the episode ones of each
1:01:40of those like different immersive content but there was a ton of stuff in this one that isn't
1:01:45available anywhere else nice like you can't like one of the nba all-star shots you're at courtside
1:01:51which is what people wanted right you're sitting at courtside and you can look around and you're
1:01:54watching them what's really great there's this one shot where uh someone misses a pass and the
1:02:00ball hits the camera and like it cuts at that moment but it's like so perfect just so happening
1:02:05at the ball i haven't seen this this is great this is all new go watch it it's really great
1:02:10they also released um the second episode of the adventure series so the adventure series the first
1:02:16high line is the high line fjords the first one yeah this one is of a parkour group in paris
1:02:22interesting and terrifying because you're up there watching these guys make their jumps and
1:02:29it's really well done i i liked this more than the highlining one it's really really good i
1:02:36was like my like my heart was pounding watching it it was very very good but it's not all apple
1:02:43there's also this is announced a couple of weeks ago the trailer is out now uh what if it's a marvel
1:02:50experience ilm interactive a marvel worked together to produce this it's so me and you have both
1:02:59actually experienced this we both are on the beta we can only talk about the intro of it right now
1:03:05it's a very very early impressions we'll actually maybe talk more about it next week um i think so
1:03:10so it is some what if is an animated series on disney plus uh which is based on a comic series
1:03:18where it's basically what if what if you took things that happened in the marvel timeline and
1:03:24did them in another direction so like what if peggy carter became captain britain rather than
1:03:30steve rogers becoming captain america exactly one of the big stories in the like the what if show
1:03:36for example um this is a part movie part you're involved in it um you can watch the trailer you
1:03:46put the trailer and some impressions and six colors like this is exactly the kind of thing
1:03:51that we were hoping for like it's fun the fidelity is fantastic you're using hand tracking to like
1:03:58make spells right like you're casting dr strange like spells it's really cool yeah wong wong
1:04:03appears in the intro and and basically says you know here are some hand gestures and there's the
1:04:09the and there's like a guide but it's an in-universe guide it's like the hand of agamotto
1:04:14is going to show you how to do this gesture to do a teleport and this gesture and uh that's a super
1:04:19clever right way of integrating the hand tracking uh that vision pro can do in order to to make it
1:04:25feel more immersive i i love that they call it an immersive experience because i was trying to
1:04:30explain this to somebody and i said well they don't want to call it a game because it's not very long
1:04:36it's not full it's it's only about an hour long and i think that they've said that too
1:04:40but like an hour long is like the longest piece of immersive content that that's been on vision pro
1:04:45yep so there's that right like but it's it's interactive i wouldn't call it a game because
1:04:51it's not a game i don't i again i don't want to go too far but i i don't think you can die
1:04:55um i think you just play the game or you play the the experience but it for things to happen
1:05:02you have to do things right it's interactive that's the thing that it is also it's a combination
1:05:09of things right some of it is spatial video it's 3d video some of it is uh interaction in your
1:05:19augmented reality space some of it is virtual reality environments all of it's using all of
1:05:25those different pieces so to call it i know it feels silly to call it a an immersive experience
1:05:31but i don't know what else you would call it because it is all of those things that you're in
1:05:35that's essentially what it's like a cartoon episode of what if sometimes sometimes you're
1:05:40watching it through like a portal sometimes you're in it yeah and uh and some things have
1:05:48have to happen because you do them and the story progresses and there are twists and turns and
1:05:55you know there are choices that need to be made and like so it is interactive but i don't want
1:05:59to overhype it and say like it's totally a what if game because it's not a game it's but it is
1:06:05interactive and immersive and uh as a it's a really interesting experiment and again it's
1:06:11like an hour so it's it's actually it's got a if you think of it as a game you'll think oh it's
1:06:18only it's really short but if you think of it as versus like one of these immersive videos that
1:06:22they've been doing or something like an app like encounter dinosaurs and this is an app too it's uh
1:06:29it's it's the most i think that they've done yeah this really it feels like someone at disney
1:06:35you know or marvel like during the process of of uh them getting to see it initially was like
1:06:42i have a really cool idea because yeah the doctor strange kind of idea the casting spells of your
1:06:48hands obviously fits so well for this yeah we'll talk about it more next week because we can't
1:06:53really talk about the full experience more than just the intro part which is what we're talking
1:06:56about right now and it's going to be free so if you've got a vision pro on wednesday you can i
1:07:00think it's wednesday you can get it yeah get it uh and i just want to say getting embargo access
1:07:06to anything marvel property is like dream come true for me so loved it you had a note too in our
1:07:14vision pro segment today uh called selling the vision pro have you sold your vision pro jason
1:07:19what is that no no i i i have talked to some of my uh people i know who work in apple retail
1:07:28and it sounds like there's been at least semi-officially some recalibration in how they
1:07:38approach selling the vision pro in retail i think it's interesting because and i think it's good
1:07:46but it sounds like okay remember when this all started apple did its most apple thing which is
1:07:52like oh we're gonna bring everybody to cupertino and we're gonna have them all learn this script
1:07:55and they're gonna need to say it word for word and it's a half hour experience that involves like
1:08:00you're gonna have to get your eyes scanned and then the things are gonna be assembled in the back
1:08:05and brought to you and then you're gonna be stepped through by a person a 30-minute experience
1:08:10and all of that and i i think they've done that now right like they've literally everybody who
1:08:19wants to see that has seen it um and i think that it's interesting because retail is very sales
1:08:27focused in a way that maybe they weren't in the early days with ron johnson um where they were
1:08:31sort of like just the extrusion of apple as a uh an entity and a brand in your community and they're
1:08:37like it's a place for you to go and like it's not a hard sell place you can just come and use the
1:08:41computers and they've transitioned into a much more of a that you know everybody is who works
1:08:47in retail is motivated by sales i would say to some degree or another but what i'm hearing is
1:08:52that a lot of the feedback that they've gotten is from people who when they're offered a vision pro
1:08:59experience say they say it's going to be 30 minutes and they're like i don't have that kind
1:09:03of time and of course they don't you're just somebody in a mall you're walking by you're like
1:09:08oh yeah i have heard about the vision pro can you show me show it to me and they're like yeah it'll
1:09:12take about half an hour you're like nope nope nope so my understanding is that um there's been a
1:09:19little bit of a recalibration which is sort of like if if you can get them in it for five minutes
1:09:25or 10 minutes great do it and you maybe will keep one here in the drawer that is just like a stock
1:09:33uh no special lenses and if somebody comes in and they don't need an adjustment you just pull it out
1:09:39and put it on right you don't make them wait um and so i was thinking about this and it's like
1:09:47well what what is the goal of the vision pro in the apple retail store and the reason i mentioned
1:09:52the earlier days where it wasn't all about sales is if i were running the zoo i would do this i
1:10:01would make it much easier to get that thing on people's faces because first off as a reviewer i
1:10:09can say i don't recommend the vision pro for people like i don't it costs too much and there's
1:10:14not enough there the people who should use it are people like us people like developers and people
1:10:19who really want to be on the cutting edge and don't mind that it costs 3500 it's fine they're
1:10:23happy to pay that to be to get a taste of the future that's fine but for everybody else like
1:10:27it's kind of a development platform and a future thing and it's not ready yet so if i'm thinking
1:10:32about apple retail i'm like we're not going to sell a lot of these and i'm sure that that's what
1:10:36they found is that they they don't sell a lot of them and that the demo doesn't really um even sell
1:10:43a lot of them so i would say what is our goal with vision pro in apple retail and i would take a page
1:10:49from the earlier days of apple retail i would say people coming into apple retail who are curious
1:11:00about the vision pro let's make it as easy as possible for them to explore it as long as they
1:11:06want up to the half full half hour and if all i have to do if all i'm able to do is put it on
1:11:13and let them have a single immersive video experience put it on and have alicia keys start
1:11:19singing or put it on and see the highline video whatever it is what and then they and then they
1:11:26take it off and they're like wow that was really cool and they leave the store what have i
1:11:29accomplished and this is my thought which is they came into the apple store to buy an iphone case or
1:11:35to buy an ipad or whatever they're curious about vision pro so they're in your ecosystem probably
1:11:40they're curious about vision pro you let them try it you show off your most impressive thing which
1:11:47and this is again i think the kind of like mistake about the early days of the vision pro where
1:11:51they've gone you know they've gone all in on spatial computing as a thing which you know they
1:11:56may believe in it may also be a combination of what they were able to ship and what they haven't
1:12:00been able to ship but the fact that it isn't it doesn't really play very many games and the games
1:12:05it plays are not like the games that you get on a on a quest and it's like no no but it's a computer
1:12:10right like when somebody's got five minutes to see the vision pro you know what you don't want to do
1:12:16is show them how to launch an app i i mean you don't okay that's great and all but what i want
1:12:22to do is if i've got five minutes with somebody is i want to put it on and do the immersive video
1:12:27thing i want to do the demo reel and then i want to say which one would you like to watch you want
1:12:31to watch the highline you want to watch elise your keys you won't watch this don't watch the
1:12:34mls video thing but well you know like what do you want to see i want minimum i just want them to have
1:12:40some time in immersive video that's what i want because that's that's the platform at its best
1:12:44that's the thing that's going to blow them away more than anything else i don't need to teach them
1:12:49to the the window interactions i don't i mean ideally you'd even have it set up to just play
1:12:55the video when you put it on and i know that's not the full demo i know it's not showing off
1:13:00all the capabilities of this thing but i think maybe the the goal in retail right now should not
1:13:07be let's sell a bunch of 3500 headsets that most people don't want it should be you're already in
1:13:12the apple store you're already in our ecosystem you presumably like apple as a brand here's the
1:13:17new thing that's totally impractical right now but you can get a taste of it you can see how amazing
1:13:22it is and then you can keep in the back of your mind oh one yeah apple is where futuristic stuff
1:13:27happens they are really on this this is why i like apple as a brand is that they're they're looking
1:13:32at the future and also oh that vision pro i have experienced it if somebody asked me i can say yeah
1:13:36it was pretty amazing that's good and then yeah maybe in a few years when it's cheaper it's more
1:13:42affordable there's more stuff for it maybe i will buy one of those because i've experienced it now
1:13:45and i had a positive experience with it all of that stuff is good none of it leads directly to
1:13:51a sale in the store um and i think that's okay so if that's what apple is doing here in retail which
1:13:58is kind of admitting that vision pro is more there to enhance the brand point the way to the future
1:14:04get people to have a great experience with the product right now because that's the the goal
1:14:10in five minutes or 10 minutes and not 30 minutes they should totally do that and i hope that that
1:14:17is a more broad policy that is coming for apple retail because the if you think about the way
1:14:22that they rolled out the sales where it was 30 minute time slots whole walkthrough how do you
1:14:28move windows around how do you launch apps it's like first off i totally understand if nobody
1:14:33wants to spend 30 minutes getting that whole demo lots of us are really busy and we're just in the
1:14:38mall and i just wanted to get an iphone case but i am curious if you can lower that barrier and get
1:14:44that thing on their face quickly and have them see an immersive video you've that's a victory even if
1:14:51they don't buy it it has so many ancillary benefits so i sort of feel like until they've
1:14:56got something that makes a better case for actually converting to sale that's what they
1:15:01should do i mean have the 30-minute walkthrough available for people who have the time of course
1:15:07but go with your best five minutes if you can and and um so i hope that i hope that this is not you
1:15:14know the people i'm hearing from are sort of like yeah you know we're trying this but we got
1:15:18indoctrinated in this other way of doing it but now we're doing it this way and like is that good
1:15:21is that bad and like i think a lot of retail employees are like it's bad because everything
1:15:26here is about sales now and i think that's culturally going to be a challenge for apple
1:15:31retail but like this product should not be about sales this product should be about halo it should
1:15:35be about making people more impressed with apple as a brand as they come in to buy some other apple
1:15:40product and and also about the future about thinking about vision pro being able to have
1:15:46a first-hand experience with it the more people who experience that immersive video today are more
1:15:51people who will be willing to buy a version of it in three years or five years yeah i think it
1:15:56i agree with this i think it is as important right now to like one person at a time change the public
1:16:01perception about the product because right now the general public perception is is too expensive
1:16:07and it is too expensive but wouldn't it be nicer to say like it's really expensive but it's really
1:16:12cool uh yeah i want one of these i can't afford it but i you know maybe in a few years i'll buy
1:16:16one because everybody knows the way that apple works i feel like yes you know like if you're
1:16:21at all even tangentially interested in technology you know there's going to be a cheaper one in the
1:16:26future that's why that's why i think it's such a great thing to get the demo as a brand extension
1:16:30as a brand to glow up the brand even more it's like people are already in your store and they
1:16:35don't have 30 minutes but you can give them five or ten and you can give them an experience that
1:16:39reinforces their connection to apple as an innovator as a company that makes cool stuff
1:16:44and as and that the stuff keeps getting cooler yeah even if this isn't for you today it makes
1:16:51you go oh someday i've seen the future and you presumably will tell people too it's like oh
1:16:58yeah that vision pro like i like you said i know it's it's too expensive and all but it was amazing
1:17:05one of these days those those geniuses at apple are gonna do this thing and it's gonna be amazing
1:17:10when it's 500 i'll buy one and yeah the most most people possible to have that experience should be
1:17:17the goal and i would wonder if like if you know if you said i can give you five minutes if it's just
1:17:22going to be video they might not even need to they could create a version you don't even need to do
1:17:26the eye training exactly that well that's what i was saying is is like you might want to have a few
1:17:32in in the drawer that literally just go on your face and start playing video and this is like no
1:17:36setup really you just put it on and as long as you have good enough it measures your pupils yeah and
1:17:42and it just starts playing yeah yeah and obviously if you need correction then so be it but like if
1:17:46you don't need correction just make it happen yeah because then it could be like uh uh because that's
1:17:53also a thing right to get a fuller demo where someone's like wow that was amazing like do you
1:17:57want to do some more if they say yes like all right we'll just do this quick setup and we'll
1:18:01start showing you some other stuff like there's there's something interesting in that and you know
1:18:06what the what if could be a perfect part of the demo too right like that could do that instead
1:18:12of encounter dinosaurs or something like that i can imagine apple using that kind of stuff
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1:19:58this show and relay fm it is time for some ask upgrade questions first comes from carl who says
1:20:08on the mac third-party system utilities and extensions are essential to professional and power
1:20:13user use apps like alfred clean shot x audio hijack better snap tool and more even if ipad
1:20:21os was improved there would still be issues and wants for third-party apps like these
1:20:27do you think apple will ever allow the ability for apps like these to become system utilities on the
1:20:33ipad i don't think that there's a clear demarcation between like a system utility and a utility like
1:20:40they're all utilities um i think there's a spectrum i think some of them require apple to provide
1:20:47access i think some of them require apple to change the way that the operating system works
1:20:51like number one is allow background tasks right that's number one alfred watches the file system
1:20:58in the background like i don't know if apple would need to make any changes beyond that right
1:21:03it's an alfred oh no alfred's a launcher i mean a launcher runs in the background waits for a
1:21:07global keyboard shortcut and launches it right i was thinking hazel which also like watches
1:21:12the file system for changes you could do that too i think like uh something like clean shot is using
1:21:18the screenshot api they might need to or screenshot system they might need to but you can capture
1:21:25video and you can capture screens so that's already a lot of the stuff is already there
1:21:29and a lot of these things on the mac especially in recent years apple has been creating more
1:21:33official ways for things to write like audio hijack which now uses apple's official apis and
1:21:39okay great see because clean shot used to use the accessibility stuff and now it uses the more
1:21:44newly created screen capture yeah yeah so a lot of this stuff is there's an api or there's a private
1:21:50api that apple uses um and that i think a lot of this stuff gets solved primarily by allowing
1:21:55background um apps and allowing global keyboard shortcuts to be assigned which would also be great
1:22:00for things like shortcuts um so you know whether they would go to the level of something like
1:22:07better snap tool um or better touch tool or you know there are going to be subsystems and this is
1:22:15true on the mac to a certain extent there's going to be subsystems that are harder to get access to
1:22:20but um i think it's a spectrum i think it's a continuum um and i think some of those apps would
1:22:27be enabled by apple allowing background tasks and allowing apps to to have access to stuff that
1:22:33apple's own system uh frameworks do and some of them they're already you can do them but you just
1:22:38can't do them in the in the background right you you got to be the foreground app which limits
1:22:43their utility so i hope so i don't have faith in it honestly i don't i don't oh yeah like the
1:22:49chance that apple would allow this i i think well let me put it this way i think saying ipad os
1:22:56should allow background tasks to run more aggressively than they do on say an iphone
1:23:04is a better chance than apple saying we're going to let you virtualize mac os i think i think
1:23:12background tasks is an ipad os feature that would be would add a bunch of utility and they can afford
1:23:17to do it because of the hardware and i somebody mentioned on a podcast i don't even remember what
1:23:22podcast it was like the danger of was marco i think it was marco who said on atp said well
1:23:30the danger is then you've got stuff running in the background and you know it it changes how you
1:23:36handle um using an ipad because people can send things in the background and it can kill the
1:23:41battery life and they're like why did this happen and the answer is you mistakenly sent something
1:23:45to the background or whatever it's like that's true but i would really hate it that the argument
1:23:50is well we should never allow on any ipad ever backgrounding because it might cause some problems
1:23:56to some users it's like i mean well what are we even doing here let's just stop let's stop
1:24:00selling the ipad pro as well because why yeah um i i believe there are ways that apple can find ways
1:24:06to do this and communicate to users maybe it only works in stage manager mode right maybe it only
1:24:11works if you turn on a background task maybe it only works if there's a scare dialogue that says
1:24:17alert alert this app is going to do this and then you know what if it drains your battery a little
1:24:21bit and you have to learn that so be it but it adds so much functionality that you can't like
1:24:27hide away from functionality there's already functionality in ipad os that allows added
1:24:31complexity and i guess the argument is basically we only should have one and that should be the
1:24:36lowest common denominator of feature set on ipad os and i just don't agree i think that i don't
1:24:42think it's an insolvable problem for apple and i think that it's a convenient excuse to say oh well
1:24:50apple can't add features to the ipad because that would confuse people on low-end ipads or it would
1:24:56make them not understand it's like well if apple does its job that right that won't happen so let's
1:25:01not assume that apple would do the job badly let's imagine what if the what if apple did the job well
1:25:05so that ipads that had lots of ram and lots you know right and a powerful processor could do
1:25:12background tasks and maybe the ipads that don't can't and i'm okay with that like i'm super okay
1:25:18with that that sort of thing so i hope someday as one of it really would be a thing that would
1:25:24unlock a lot of possibilities on ipad os how pessimistic am i about it i don't know i mean
1:25:31let's see if you'll pick it in the draft next week right yeah probably not
1:25:34mark says given recent controversies regarding scarlett johanson and open ai and google's new
1:25:41ai summaries feature do you think apple should go back to using the term machine learning to
1:25:47avoid comparisons uh apple will use the term ai as long as it's convenient yeah what they only
1:25:55started using ai when it was convenient right like where they've now rebranded their machine learning
1:26:00things as ai as ai because everybody's like where's apple on ai and apple's like guys we've had all
1:26:05this stuff for years and they're like no that's machine learning we're asking you where you are
1:26:08in ai also it's where we're behind on what people think ai is with the chatbot i mean everyone's
1:26:13behind on what ai actually is right it's almost yeah so we're we're gonna call this ai because
1:26:20it makes us look better and they will continue to call it ai until the moment that it doesn't
1:26:24make them look better and they're again people in the streets with torches and pitchforks about ai
1:26:29at which point apple will take one step back rebrand everything as machine learning
1:26:32start to whistle and disappear into a hedge and john says rumors have it that the update to ios
1:26:40at wwdc this year as we've spoken about earlier will be the biggest update ever do you think it
1:26:45will be all ai related upgrades if they are i know i'll be really disappointed i'm sure there's a lot
1:26:53of other stuff in there we talked about the home screen stuff that's not an ai thing i'm sure there
1:26:57will be plenty of other functions out there um also there's always new features that are machine
1:27:03learning based right and that they'll just call them ai things now but like photos the photos app
1:27:08always has new machine learning based stuff and they added the whole thing with the autocorrect
1:27:13being based on an llm uh or on a transformer model sorry on a transformer model last year so
1:27:19like they're going to be three classes of things they're going to be some features that are just
1:27:22features they're going to be some features that would have been there anyway and they're going
1:27:25to be called ai because they can be and then there'll be some ai features that'll be the
1:27:29ones that they'll try to make the most hay over but we'll have to see i i think i think maybe
1:27:34there'll be fewer major new features than in past years because that are not ai because of the push
1:27:41for ai but i don't think it's going to be like that there aren't features other than ai features
1:27:47i would also just say and they'll say this to all up gradients try and keep an open mind like don't
1:27:51be disappointed before wwdc right that like try not to make your mind that like if they talk about
1:27:58ai stuff at all i'm going to be disappointed like we know they're going to see what they have first
1:28:03and see how it makes you feel right like they're they're a different thing like ai is different
1:28:08right like ai uh like machine learning is different to ai generative content you know like
1:28:16apple's not necessarily going to be trying to replace artists here they might just be helping
1:28:22you write a text message quicker right like there aren't emoji artists that will go out of business
1:28:29because you can create weird emoji stickers like they're still going to you know just keep an open
1:28:34mind i think you'll be happier that way and just see what they've got before we all decide that
1:28:39it's going to be a disaster and then judge them if you would like to send in a question of your own
1:28:45for a future episode very easy to do so go to upgrade feedback.com you can also leave us your
1:28:50feedback and follow up there you can check out jason at sixcolors.com you can hear his shows
1:28:56here on relay fm and at the incomparable.com the incomparable.com i really i swallowed a couple of
1:29:02letters there jason incomparable i'll give it another go for you you can listen to my shows
1:29:06here on relay fm and check out my work cortexbrand.com jason is at jay snell on social media i am at
1:29:14i mike i am y a k e you can find video clips of the show on tik tok instagram and youtube where
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1:29:31we'll be back next week with the draft until then say goodbye jason snow goodbye mike early
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