The Talk Show

404: ‘Curiously Short Episodes’, With John Moltz


00:00:00   It's a holiday weekend, sort of, so I felt, who better than my good friend, John?

00:00:04   Happy to do it. Particularly when you said that we would just be talking about TV shows, assuming

00:00:10   that's what we're going to do. Yeah, I mean, I think that's what we should do because I kind of,

00:00:16   I just did a show with Quinn Nelson and we kind of covered the WWDC. The only news that sort of

00:00:22   is broken this week is that the EU's announced a thing against Microsoft, which I don't really have

00:00:30   a lot to add other than, of course, I don't know. Well, they're sharing wealth. I keep meaning to

00:00:38   get a column out about this and I will soon. I know, although, I don't know. Do you feel this

00:00:44   way too? Like when you podcast something, it takes all the urge to write out of it.

00:00:52   It does feel like sometimes I'm just repeating myself a lot, yeah.

00:00:55   Yeah, I feel like if I've, I feel like it should be the other way. I feel like if I've talked about

00:01:02   it on a podcast, I should still have the urge to put it in writing where I feel like I'm good with

00:01:09   words and I— Yeah, yeah, I think it's a better way to make sure that you're saying what you mean

00:01:15   to say as opposed to on a podcast. But I find that what actually happens though is sort of the

00:01:23   opposite. If I've written about something first, I still don't mind blathering about it on a podcast.

00:01:29   But once I've podcasted it, it does somehow, there's a part of my brain. But I guess the thing

00:01:36   that—before we move on, it's, I keep coming back to the fact that it, obviously people's opinions

00:01:45   about the EU and the DMA and Apple are polarized, to say the least. I think that's a fair

00:01:51   description. There's some people who are go-go European Union, stick it to Apple, they're getting

00:01:59   what they deserve. And from people, I keep hearing from people who think that the government or a

00:02:07   government anywhere forcing Apple to in particular open up the App Store isn't just what these people

00:02:14   want or what a political contingent wants, but who actually think from their perspective that this is

00:02:20   actually good medicine for Apple, that this actually would be good for Apple. And you know,

00:02:24   I'm amenable to that. And then on the other side, there's people where I would find myself

00:02:28   who think that this entire endeavor is ill-advised. Not that Apple isn't in need of regulation or that

00:02:36   I'm a knee-jerk, right-wing, all-government, get-the-government-off-my-back sort of political

00:02:44   person, which I think I'm not. But... Yeah, I think there's a line between where regulation is good.

00:02:51   I mean, I think opening up the App Store so that there are more options obviously is better for

00:02:57   consumers and it's better for most everybody, probably I think even better for Apple. But

00:03:02   there's also a line to which you can go and almost it's starting to seem in certain circumstances,

00:03:09   things that you've heard people say from the EU, that they're getting to the point where

00:03:14   you're going to start running into things that they, Apple's just not going to want to do things

00:03:19   anymore. I mean, I don't think they're going to pull out of the EU. You've mentioned that a few

00:03:23   times. I don't think they're going to do that. I think that would be cutting off their nose

00:03:26   despite their face, but it could get to the point where they're going to be less inclined to do,

00:03:32   to make certain features if they feel that they have to make those features available to everybody

00:03:38   to use. Right. And it's like when I first started spitballing, hey, maybe this sort of regulatory

00:03:52   guillotine hanging, I mean, guillotine's a little harsh because you die when you go through a real

00:03:57   guillotine. But it is the EU themselves or the European Commission who keeps reiterating

00:04:06   the profound size of the fines that the DMA allows them to apply to companies that they

00:04:14   deemed to be violating. 10% of worldwide revenue on the first offense. And then after a first offense,

00:04:20   the maximum goes up to 20%. Now, they haven't fined anybody under the DMA yet for anything.

00:04:25   I mean, and it is by regulatory standards, still a dripping wet law, right? It came into effect in

00:04:33   March. And I know at this point, it feels like that was a long time ago, and we've been talking

00:04:38   about this for a while, but at the pace of regulatory action, it kind of makes sense

00:04:43   that nobody's been fined yet. And so we don't know when they start finding people under this,

00:04:48   are they really going to pursue maximum penalties, 10% of worldwide revenue,

00:04:53   doubling for second offenses, or is that just bluster, whatever, but Apple doesn't know either.

00:05:00   And I really, I mean, very few people inside Apple know, ultimately, what they really know from the

00:05:10   highest levels of sort of diplomatic back and forth with the European Commission. Does Apple

00:05:15   know that they're really not going to find them 10% of the worldwide revenue and so that the

00:05:21   pressure isn't as high? I don't know. I don't think Apple knows. I think the European Commission

00:05:26   is purposefully inscrutable on this. It does seem that Apple in the past, though, has been fined and

00:05:31   just doesn't care. Because it can pay almost anything. Right. If you don't find them something

00:05:39   that's large and possibly larger than your market size, you'll never get anywhere. Right. So I get

00:05:46   that. But I guess the one where I'm going with this, though, is that the one split in public

00:05:54   opinion that I feel certain that one side is wrong about is, is the argument that Apple is taking this

00:06:06   lightly. And that it's and I've seen this repeated multiple times that they don't think Apple's taking

00:06:14   this seriously at all. And that I think it's sort of comes from a perspective of thinking that if

00:06:23   they took it seriously, their compliance plans would have been designed, knowing that they would

00:06:30   make the DMA proponents happy. Right? I mean, it's, I think something something to the effect

00:06:40   of here, okay, fine. Here in the EU, here is an easy way for anybody to distribute apps and pay

00:06:50   Apple nothing to distribute to iOS, right? More or less, that's what we all kind of know, would

00:06:57   placate the DMA strongest proponents, both in the European Commission and people outside who are

00:07:03   cheering it on, right, they want to be able to install software on iOS devices the way you can

00:07:09   on the Mac, more or less. You know, and people bring up that example all the time, and including

00:07:16   on my show, where I thought Craig Federighi on stage was as clear as any Apple executive has ever

00:07:23   been, that as much as they like the Mac, love the Mac, and think the Mac is as safe as a personal

00:07:30   computing platform can be, that this, it is nowhere near as safe as iOS in terms of I think

00:07:36   Federighi even said like his own mother or something like that, like in terms of here,

00:07:41   go install whatever you want. She can do that on her iPhone and feel safe and telling your

00:07:47   a non-technical family member, go ahead and install whatever software you want from any source

00:07:53   on the Mac is probably not good advice. I mean, that's the truth. And I kind of feel like that's

00:07:59   a PR thing that Apple's had to sort of dance around, because they don't want to throw their

00:08:05   own platform under the bus, right? It's like a long-standing fear. Go back to seven, eight,

00:08:12   nine years ago, when there was sort of a fear that Apple was going to let the Mac sort of

00:08:19   go into retirement, the retirement home for old computing platforms, and let iPadOS sort of be

00:08:26   the new big screen. We've got the phone OS, iOS, and we've got iPadOS for bigger screens, and

00:08:32   that's the future. You know, sort of the famous Federighi slide at WWDC, are we going to merge

00:08:38   Mac and iPadOS? No, we're not. Or that they were going to force everybody to use the App Store

00:08:43   on the Mac. Right. But it's exactly, well, that's what I'm talking about. That's the sort of merger

00:08:50   thought that some, forget about the actual details of what it would be, just yada, yada, yada, let's

00:08:56   combine iPad and MacOS, one fewer platform, but this new merged for the future platform

00:09:05   would have those rules like iOS, right? That's the fear. I have the fear. I certainly,

00:09:10   I feel like Apple's current strategy is okay, where the iOS platforms, the phone and the iPad

00:09:19   have the rules where everything has to go through the App Store, and the Mac gets to be a true

00:09:25   personal computing platform where you can not just install whatever you want, you can compile

00:09:30   your own software, make your own software, there's a command line, and if you want to with minimal

00:09:35   protections, going through settings and saying, okay, yes, allow installations from sources

00:09:41   outside the App Store or whatever, that you can do that. I feel like that's a good balance.

00:09:47   There's definitely a part of me that sort of wishes, you know, in a way that there's both

00:09:52   for laptop style computers, both iPad, more locked down, tight, and Mac, which is more open,

00:10:00   definitely more open, I kind of wish that we had the same option for phones, that there was sort of

00:10:05   a lockdown version for most people, and a power user version where you can do the stuff that

00:10:12   people want everybody on the phone to be able to do. But that's basically though, just circling

00:10:19   back that I just want to get this off my chest that I really don't think Apple is taking this

00:10:24   lightly at all. I think they're taking it seriously as a heart attack. I think that and I think they

00:10:29   see it as an existential threat, not because the EU itself is so large, that losing the EU market

00:10:36   or shrinking in EU market because of this would do them in. But the fear that DMA style legislation

00:10:46   will spread throughout the rest of the world. That would be the existential threat to Apple.

00:10:51   Jared I don't think that

00:10:52   necessarily dragging your heels or trying to fight it a bit is not taking it seriously.

00:10:58   Michael Right, right. I definitely,

00:11:00   capitulation is not the only option. And I think that the scope of some of this stuff,

00:11:09   browser engine kit in particular seems to be a thorn in people's side, like the people who

00:11:14   really want to see the Chrome rendering engine on iOS devices, or let it gecko to the one from

00:11:22   Firefox. And it's, I think there's a couple of factors, but browser engine kit is definitely

00:11:31   more complicated than just somehow getting Xcode to compile a version of Chrome with the chromium

00:11:38   engine and it okay, it runs and launches. It's there's a bunch of things that are third party

00:11:45   rendering engine that wants to be there for the platform has to comply with to go through browser

00:11:50   engine kit, but it's reasonable. And it is about safety. There's so many of the security

00:11:56   vulnerabilities that go through the browser, whatever the browser, WebKit, Chrome, gecko,

00:12:04   but that's when people talk about like zero days or something like that, where it's like you

00:12:09   carefully craft a link and somebody taps it in WhatsApp or messages or whatever app you're using.

00:12:14   And if it exploits a bug in the browser rendering engine, just by tapping the link and loading it,

00:12:21   you might be vulnerable to it. There really are serious issues that come up through this.

00:12:25   And it's just one example where if Apple wanted to be lazy and didn't take it seriously,

00:12:30   they would just say, here, just do whatever you want. And if a user checks this checkbox to allow

00:12:36   any software they want on their phones, have at it. You can riddle your phone with malware.

00:12:44   That's not our problem. We gave you one warning up front. That would be the lazy, malicious

00:12:49   way of complying. Right. Yeah. Anyway, we weren't going to talk about. So we weren't going to talk

00:12:56   about this. Anyway, let me take a break here and take our sponsor for the show, our very special

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00:16:03   So anyway, my idea, the July 4th extended holiday week. Give people some feedback. Our favorite picks

00:16:13   of recent TV shows and movies. I know you're big on that, right? That's your podcasting career.

00:16:18   Jared: That's right. Yeah, and I'm just starting to do a thing with the incomparable. We're going

00:16:23   to do the Planet of the Apes, the recent Planet of the Apes series. So I've been working my way

00:16:29   back through those, which I've seen all of them except the one that's out now. I still haven't

00:16:33   gotten out to see that one yet, but that's a pretty good series. So I'm kind of happy to do

00:16:37   that. I've seen them through it once, and so now I'm going back and watching them again.

00:16:41   Pete: Yeah, they're pretty good. I have not seen the latest one. How about Godzilla minus zero?

00:16:49   Jared; That is very good.

00:16:50   Pete; Have you seen it?

00:16:51   Jared; Have you seen that yet?

00:16:51   Pete; I have seen it. And I feel, I want your guidance on this, John, is where to toe the line

00:16:58   on recommending something without spoiling something. So interrupt me and cut me off if

00:17:04   you feel like I'm crossing the line. But I kind of feel like one of the nice things about Godzilla

00:17:09   minus zero is we can't really spoil it, in my opinion. Because guess what? It's a Godzilla movie.

00:17:16   So guess what happens?

00:17:18   Jared; And it's a prequel.

00:17:19   Pete; Yeah.

00:17:20   Jared; So Godzilla's gonna make it.

00:17:22   Pete; Right.

00:17:25   Jared; He's got a date with, who was the guy? Perry Mason? Raymond Burr.

00:17:34   Pete; Raymond Burr, that's right.

00:17:36   Jared; I can't believe I didn't remember, couldn't remember that.

00:17:38   Pete; It takes place, Godzilla minus zero takes place in, I guess, just after the end of World

00:17:44   War II in Japan.

00:17:46   Jared; Yeah, I think it's, yeah, I mean, maybe a year or two, something like that.

00:17:49   Pete; Yeah, something like that. So it's like 1945 or 1946 in Japan.

00:17:54   Jared; Yeah, because it starts out right at the end, toward the end of the war, right? Because

00:17:58   they're boarding planes to fly them into American.

00:18:04   Pete; Right. There's like a kamikaze pilot landing a shaky plane to start the movie.

00:18:10   Jared; Yeah.

00:18:11   Pete; Entirely in Japanese, I believe, also, and I think, and this is one of those movies where I

00:18:19   just said up front, you can't really spoil it, but somehow, because I knew I wanted to watch it,

00:18:24   I didn't read a lot about it, other than the fact that I knew it was a prequel. I'd heard that the

00:18:28   effects were very good. I think it, did it win Oscars for visual effects? I don't know.

00:18:32   Jared; I think it did, didn't it? Yeah.

00:18:34   Pete; It should have, in my opinion, because that was one thing too, is somehow, I don't know,

00:18:40   it was extremely compelling.

00:18:41   Jared; Did you say minus zero? It's Godzilla minus one.

00:18:43   Pete; Oh, I keep saying it wrong. I do keep saying it wrong.

00:18:49   Jared; I went with it. I didn't.

00:18:50   Pete; No, I was wrong.

00:18:51   Jared; Yeah, but it won an Oscar for best visual effects.

00:18:53   Pete; Yeah, Godzilla minus one. Do you understand the title? This is why I can't remember that it's

00:18:59   minus one instead of minus zero. I guess minus zero doesn't do anything, right?

00:19:03   Jared; No, minus zero does nothing. Yeah, I guess it's supposed to be the year before,

00:19:06   before the original movie, maybe?

00:19:10   Pete; Yeah, maybe. The one thing though I saw get praise, and again, it sort of feels

00:19:19   a little trite, but I'm glad to see it, that the whole cast is Japanese. There are no,

00:19:27   "Oh, we're going to spend all this money on a Godzilla movie. We've got to put some

00:19:32   American actors and actresses in at some point."

00:19:35   Jared; Well, that's what they did with Raymond Burr, right? I mean,

00:19:38   he's just injected into that film. He's not, he obviously was not in the Japanese release of that

00:19:42   movie, and then they were like, "Well, we want to release this in America, so we got to put an

00:19:46   American in here," and he's just like standing there with a microphone at a window through the

00:19:50   whole thing.

00:19:50   Pete; Right! It really does exemplify the old thinking on, well, nobody wants to watch,

00:19:58   nobody elsewhere in the world wants to watch a movie with an entirely Japanese cast.

00:20:02   So, I'm glad we went past it because I feel like, I feel like it was a really good story for a

00:20:08   Godzilla movie too.

00:20:09   Jared; Yeah, I mean, it's really more of a post-war story than a monster movie in a lot of

00:20:13   ways. I mean, obviously Godzilla's in it, but it's more about the lives of these people who are

00:20:20   damaged by the aftereffects of the war.

00:20:23   Pete; Right, of a very long, arduous, gut-wrenching war that at least

00:20:28   Jared; Affected all of their lives.

00:20:29   Pete; Yeah, pretty much. And I guess, well, not even I guess, I mean, I think kind of famously,

00:20:35   the original Godzilla was clearly an allegory about nuclear war and knowing that Japan has a

00:20:46   unique in the world perspective on nuclear war as the only ones to have been the

00:20:52   victims of it. And so, I did think about that and again, going into it, I didn't know,

00:21:00   but coming out of the movie and sort of processing my feelings about it, and it was,

00:21:06   in some ways it's just pure Godzilla where it's, yeah, you get lots of all the Godzilla stuff you

00:21:11   want to see, smashing buildings, stepping on people. Jared; It's always unclear to me like if

00:21:18   he's going to be a good guy or a bad guy in a given movie.

00:21:20   Pete; Yeah, I do too.

00:21:22   Jared; Like, there are so many movies like after the original where he becomes like the hero who

00:21:29   fights off all the other monsters.

00:21:31   Pete; Right, right. Mecha Godzilla and all those other characters. I guess whenever there's other,

00:21:37   and I guess there is, I haven't seen it, there's also a new King Kong and Godzilla movie.

00:21:42   Jared; Yeah. I tried to watch that first one, I did not get very far.

00:21:46   Pete; I did watch the first one and, well, it sums up my feelings about the first one that I don't

00:21:53   have the second one on my watch list, but yet they made it, so I guess it was a hit? I don't know.

00:22:00   Jared; I guess so, yeah. Did you watch the Apple TV show?

00:22:03   Pete; Yes.

00:22:04   Jared; Legacy of Monsters? I haven't finished it. I watched a bunch of it and have not

00:22:08   finished it yet, so I got to get back to, I thought it was okay. I thought it was okay.

00:22:12   I didn't think it was, I didn't think a lot of it, but it was entertaining enough.

00:22:15   Pete; It was better than I expected, but it fits in with the whole industry-wide

00:22:23   cinematic universe era, right? I mean, and Legacy of Monsters, I mean, it's a good segue

00:22:32   into talking about something afterwards, and I think Godzilla minus one is still trying to fit

00:22:39   into this because it's a prequel, right? That they're not really-

00:22:42   Jared; It could, yeah, right.

00:22:43   Pete; Yeah, it's-

00:22:44   Jared; Yeah, I don't know.

00:22:45   Pete; But I don't know.

00:22:48   Jared; There's a difference between, there's usually a difference between the American movies

00:22:52   and the Japanese ones. I think, like, the recent Godzilla movies and the Godzilla and Kong movies

00:22:58   are part of the same universe as the show, but not necessarily Godzilla minus one.

00:23:07   Pete; Yeah, I-

00:23:08   Jared; But it could be, it could fit in fairly perfectly well, but it's not necessarily.

00:23:14   Pete; Right. In the modern day extended cinematic universe, and it is

00:23:21   explaining the science behind giant King Kong gorillas and giant lasers shooting out of their

00:23:28   mouth lizards, and that there's some sort of Edgar Rice Burroughs style underground world

00:23:39   under the surface of the earth that still somehow has light sources and gravity, but that it's

00:23:47   through these underground, unknown to human civilization magical portals that these monsters

00:23:55   can sort of zap around under the Pacific Ocean, more or less.

00:24:00   Jared; I think the lesson of the show is don't think too hard about a monster movie.

00:24:04   Pete; Yeah, I think so. All right, you and I have talked on podcasts, well, everybody our age with

00:24:10   the podcast has talked about the Star Wars universe and too much. And I think ultimately

00:24:16   it gets down to going back to the prequels. It's like one of everybody, everybody loves to talk

00:24:21   about Jar Jar first, and then second, everybody wants to complain about the whole midichlorians,

00:24:27   "Oh, now they've got like a blood test for the force." And it's, I think that was a mistake,

00:24:32   right? I agree. Yeah, there's lots of stuff about the prequels that I think are subjective, but I'm,

00:24:40   I've always been more on George Lucas's side with the prequels. I don't love the prequels like I

00:24:47   love the original trilogy from the 80s, the 70s and the 80s. And, but I appreciate it. And I

00:24:55   think that George Lucas made a prequel trilogy that was what he was shooting for, which is

00:25:03   interesting. I don't think it's a failed trilogy at all. I would just say that the whole midichlorian

00:25:09   thing though, even given the overall arc of the prequels and the style and the way Lucas wanted

00:25:15   to take the series, the midichlorian thing, come on, George. No, that was not, yeah. It's a fantasy.

00:25:21   It's not, it doesn't need a scientific explanation for how the force works. Right. It's mystical.

00:25:27   It's not, it's not a bunch, it's not something you could see with a microscope in your blood.

00:25:32   But anyway, I think that applies just as well to trying to figure out where the light sources

00:25:38   are coming from. Exactly. Yeah. With Godzilla. I guess this show is kind of popular though,

00:25:46   because I made a couple of t-shirts. I watched the first episode and actually,

00:25:49   I think from the trailer, there were these signs that were a Godzilla exit route and it had been

00:25:54   written in Japanese as well. And so I made some t-shirts of those because I thought it was cool.

00:25:58   I still have a lot of those. I was really surprised. So apparently people like the show

00:26:02   or at least watched a number of people watch the show. Well, I do think, and that is part of the

00:26:10   modern day cinematic universe world building idea is you have a steady stream of feature films

00:26:18   with the big budget and you put the stars in and whether it's Avengers or whether it's Star Wars

00:26:24   or whether it's Godzilla, you've got some feature films. And then in between the feature films,

00:26:29   you make TV shows and tell smaller stories. Certainly, I would say Disney has sort of

00:26:37   staked the company on this strategy. That's what they're doing with the Marvel universe. That's

00:26:44   certainly what they're doing with the Star Wars universe. And now whoever owns Godzilla and King

00:26:48   Kong is doing it. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Right. An interesting

00:26:54   casting note in Legacy of... Now I'm going to screw this one up. Legacy of Monsters, right?

00:26:59   Is that the...

00:27:00   Yeah. Monarch Legacy of Monsters. That's what it is.

00:27:03   Right. But Kurt Russell is in it as Kurt Russell and his son who...

00:27:09   Well, he's in it as a character. Yeah.

00:27:10   Right. Well, but...

00:27:12   Well, I forgot the character's name, but he's... Yeah.

00:27:14   I meant though that he's playing a Kurt Russell aged character, but his younger self,

00:27:19   because there's flashbacks to the '50s or '60s, is played by his son, which is really,

00:27:26   really interesting. What's his son's name? Wyatt Russell. And it's... He's not...

00:27:32   I like that. And that's one of the things I like about the show, actually. I think that works

00:27:36   pretty well. They look plenty enough alike. And it's a nice way of doing it without throwing a

00:27:43   whole bunch of CGI on them. Not that there's anything wrong with CGI. It doesn't have to be

00:27:48   used for everything. Yeah. And that's like, I always think to... Which a movie that I liked,

00:27:55   I really liked a lot. Although I've only watched it once because it was three hours and it's

00:28:00   therefore not easily re-watched. But Scorsese's The Irishman from a couple of years ago,

00:28:06   which was on Netflix, but had used a lot of CGI to make young Robert De Niro. I think they did

00:28:14   Young Joe Pesci too, but certainly young Robert De Niro. And it was good enough, but not...

00:28:22   There is something to me more satisfying about seeing Wyatt Russell play younger

00:28:31   Kurt Russell than it would be watching a de-aged Kurt Russell play both.

00:28:36   Yeah, I agree. And it's weird that to me, sometimes the de-aging process works really

00:28:41   well and sometimes it does not work well at all. And for some reason to my eye, it works better in

00:28:47   the Marvel movies than it does in the Star Wars movies. And I don't understand why that is. You'd

00:28:52   think that it would be all coming from the same place, but maybe it doesn't. Yeah. Who are you

00:28:57   thinking of in the Star Wars? Well, Carrie Fisher and Tarkin. I don't think those worked all that

00:29:05   well for me. Whereas younger Ant-Man in the beginning of the first Ant-Man movie was pretty

00:29:11   good. I'm trying to think of what else. There's been other ones too that I think worked well,

00:29:18   but I can't take them off my head. I thought Tarkin... Tarkin I kind of liked.

00:29:21   It's hard to share with Tarkin because you're making him up completely. You don't have the

00:29:25   original actor to do it, but still. It just seemed a little clunky. Yeah, a little bit. But the

00:29:33   Legacy of Monsters, good show. And it kind of brings me to maybe an overarching point,

00:29:40   which is that Apple TV sort of... I think, A, Apple TV is really hitting its stride. And

00:29:48   even with a couple of shows that I sort of thought, "Eh, I don't think I'm going to like

00:29:55   this one." And now I've wound up really liking it a lot. Palm Royale would be an example of that.

00:30:00   Did you? I don't know. I have not watched that yet. Kristen Wiig is the star and it's sort of...

00:30:06   It kind of reminds me of Mad Men because it takes place in that era. I think maybe a little after

00:30:13   the... I think it's like 1970 or '71, but it's in Palm Springs. And Amy wanted to watch it. You

00:30:20   know how it is. You take turns picking shows. I really liked it. And then we did the... I think

00:30:27   sort of what I liked doing is get into it. If it's an eight-episode series, get into it a month in.

00:30:34   And then if you like it, you can kind of go faster than one a week, but you don't necessarily binge

00:30:39   it. But Palm Royale was one that I got to the end of. And then I found out that Apple had renewed it

00:30:44   for another season and I'm like, "Yay!" But there's two things about Apple TV that are sticking out to

00:30:50   me. Palm Royale is obviously an exception, but it does seem like they are, without saying so,

00:30:57   they are deliberately sort of eking out of position as the home of sci-fi.

00:31:03   Yeah, well, yeah, weird sci-fi, right? I mean, a lot of it is, I don't know, has a sort of odd

00:31:10   twist to it, I would say. Yeah, maybe less... And again, I know it's a very loose distinction,

00:31:17   but less sci-fi and more science fiction, right? Like, where...

00:31:22   Yeah, yeah, true. I get weird.

00:31:25   Like, I've always thought the distinction, like, Star Wars is sci-fi, but it's just laser guns and

00:31:32   the force and it's a cross and, you know, I don't know. How long does it really take for light speed

00:31:38   to get you from Alderaan to Coruscant? Who knows, you know? What happened? How in the world,

00:31:46   when the Millennium Falcon didn't have a hyperdrive, did they get from Hoth to Bespin

00:31:52   without a hyperdrive? I don't know. Who knows? Forget it. That's sci-fi, right? Laser guns and

00:31:57   laser swords. And science fiction, 2001 would be the canonical example where it's like, "Hey,

00:32:04   this is actually, like, maybe technically possible or to some degree of realism or just

00:32:10   thoughtfulness." And it's less... Right. Something to make you think.

00:32:16   You can actually, you can use your, you can turn your brain on a little bit for it.

00:32:19   Right. And in terms of being weird sci-fi, I think nothing is weirder than Severance, right?

00:32:27   Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00:32:28   Like, do you like weird sci-fi? You should watch Severance, right?

00:32:34   I didn't, yeah. And that was a show, like, looking back, I'm surprised I liked it as much as I did

00:32:37   because it's pretty dark. It's pretty bleak in a lot of ways.

00:32:43   Except for the way that it looks, right? I mean, and that's sort of, I think, one of the very

00:32:47   interesting things about the show. It is a very bleak, dark show. But everything, once the people

00:32:54   in the company go to their, I mean, this is a bit of a spoiler, but the whole season's over and the

00:32:59   new season's coming out. So I presume it's safe to talk about the premise of Severance.

00:33:03   Yeah, I would think for this one, yes.

00:33:04   Where there's this mysterious company where everybody, and they know it, they sign up for it,

00:33:10   and they know that when you go to work, you come in the front and then you go down an escalator

00:33:15   and you sort of forget about your entire outside life. And you only, when you're at work,

00:33:22   you only know work. And then when you leave for the day, you go back up and you forget all of

00:33:28   your work. And now you're back into real life and you're like, "I don't know what happened the last

00:33:31   eight hours, but, you know, I assume it was okay."

00:33:33   Right. I don't need to worry about it.

00:33:36   But when they're down in their work world, instead of lighting it dark, moody, it's very,

00:33:46   very brightly lit white walls, very clean, almost surgical, which, just to bring Kubrick into it,

00:33:53   is that the Shining is, almost none of it takes place in the dark. And that's sort of,

00:34:00   that was something he set out deliberately to do, that let's make a scary, terrifying horror movie,

00:34:06   and instead of having jump scares and everything's dark, let's make it really light and have a whole

00:34:14   bunch of it take place in the daytime. And I think Severance kind of gets that, where it, to me,

00:34:18   comes across creepier by being not looking creepy.

00:34:22   Yeah.

00:34:23   What else? One of the first shows on Apple TV, and now it's, I forget what season they're up to,

00:34:30   there's For All Mankind, which kind of started them down the path of this, but the science

00:34:36   fiction shows just keep coming. Do you watch For All Mankind?

00:34:39   Oh yeah. Yeah. That had a slow start, I thought. Like, the first couple episodes, I was like,

00:34:44   "I wasn't sure if I was going to like it," and then now I'm completely hooked, of course. I

00:34:48   gotta find out where they're going.

00:34:50   Right. And it's, I also wonder with that one, and again, I don't, I think the basic premise isn't

00:34:57   really spoiling it, but it's like, it starts with the 60s, right? Before we got to the Moon,

00:35:06   and it's what if the Russians had gotten to the Moon before us? And then the whole world—

00:35:11   I think that's the opening, right? It's like, they're doing the Moon landing announcement,

00:35:14   and then the big surprise is the flag that gets placed is a Soviet flag instead of a US flag.

00:35:21   Right. It's a Soviet flag, and the Soviets on their initial trip to the Moon sent up both a man

00:35:27   and a woman, so they landed both the first man and woman on the Moon, and therefore put pressure on

00:35:33   the US to accelerate integrating women into the astronaut force, which, A, I think was kind of a

00:35:42   clever idea in general, but B, gets them over the hump of, hey, you can't—it would be awkward in

00:35:55   today's world to make a show about an alternate history of the astronaut force where the astronaut

00:36:00   force was seven white guys, right? Which was true. So how do you explain why in the alternate

00:36:08   universe there's women in the astronauts and there are people of color in the astronaut corps,

00:36:14   and it's because the Russians stuck it to us by sending a woman up on their first mission.

00:36:21   Yeah. It's awkward. Did you watch Masters of the Air?

00:36:24   No, that's one I haven't watched.

00:36:26   It's a little awkward, and that—I mean, obviously, it's much more—it's not completely

00:36:30   factual, but it's much more factual, obviously. It's very much based on actual stories, and they

00:36:36   have one episode that is about the Tuskegee Airmen. Unfortunately, it's not one of the

00:36:43   stronger episodes, I would say, and it comes off a little trite. I don't think it works as well as

00:36:50   some of the other, but it's not an amazing show. It's not nearly as good as the other shows in that

00:36:55   group of—like, the Band of Brothers is fantastic, and the Pacific is really good. This one is by far

00:37:01   the weakest, but there are things that I enjoyed about it, but that episode I don't think holds

00:37:08   up all that well, unfortunately. And of course, they're telling a real story, so they had to

00:37:12   be factual, or at least pretty close to factual about it. They couldn't just

00:37:17   put a bunch of people of color in the cockpits of the bomber planes.

00:37:23   Right, and that's sort of the freedom of—I feel like if I were writing for one of these shows,

00:37:30   I would prefer to write for like a For All Mankind where—

00:37:35   Yeah, where you have more latitude.

00:37:37   Yeah, where it's like you can just make up stuff like that and say, "You know what, what if there

00:37:43   were a representative number of Black people in the astronaut corps in 1968? What if?" Wouldn't it

00:37:51   be—because it doesn't just make the cast look better today when you say, "Here's the cast of

00:37:56   the show." It just—I don't know, it just feels better, right?

00:37:58   Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah.

00:38:00   And you get to draw from a wider pool of talent, and you get some good actors who otherwise wouldn't

00:38:04   be able to play in the show. One thing where I think they maybe should have used CGI to age up

00:38:12   Ed Baldwin in that show, because I think his makeup in the most recent series was a little bit like a

00:38:19   Star Trek episode from—

00:38:20   Yeah, I have to say, I agree with that. And it did—and I remember thinking—

00:38:26   He's a good actor, and I've enjoyed him throughout the show, but they feel like that makeup

00:38:30   was not as good as it could have been.

00:38:32   It felt like when you go see a play, right, and you expect that, "Oh, if there's a 45 or—I

00:38:40   don't know how old, but a middle of his career actor who's playing somebody—"

00:38:45   King Lear.

00:38:46   Yeah, or something like that. You don't expect it to look realistic. If you have close seats and

00:38:51   you can kind of see the makeup, you're like, "Well, yeah, I'm watching a play." And even

00:38:55   that's sort of what Ed Baldwin looked like there.

00:38:58   But I'm trying to think if any other streaming network really even compares to Apple in terms

00:39:06   of the amount of science fiction stuff as a percentage.

00:39:10   Yeah. It doesn't obviously have all the Star Wars stuff, but that's a franchise,

00:39:13   so it's kind of different. They don't really have independent—I mean, I guess there's some Hulu

00:39:19   stuff maybe, but I don't think there's even that much science fiction stuff on Hulu, really.

00:39:24   Yeah, not really. Netflix has everything, right? I know that they had—I've already forgotten the

00:39:30   name—but the guy who did the Superman movie, Snyder—

00:39:35   Yeah, it was Zack Snyder, yeah.

00:39:36   Zack Snyder. He had the big science fiction two-part thing on Netflix, and everybody was

00:39:42   like, "There's a part two?" I haven't watched it yet, so I can't complain.

00:39:47   I heard very bad things about it. I've never really liked him very much to begin with.

00:39:51   The same here. And that is exactly why it's never bubbled up to the top of my watch list,

00:39:57   is I'm not really a fan of Zack Snyder.

00:39:59   I like Watchmen okay. I thought it was all right. I think that's the best thing of his that I've—

00:40:04   Yeah.

00:40:04   The thing that I've enjoyed the most, but I feel like I've suffered through the other stuff that

00:40:09   he made.

00:40:09   Yeah, I liked his Watchmen, and in terms of sort of famously deemed to be un-filmable

00:40:19   original content, which I think often means when the source content, which is often just

00:40:26   a written novel, but in the case of the Watchmen was a graphic novel. But I'm sure you agree—I'm

00:40:31   speaking to the choir here—that there's no hesitation to put graphic novels on par with

00:40:37   prose novels in terms of artistic quality or intent. But because it's so beloved and so

00:40:46   meaningful to so many people, it's like a fear, "Oh God, please don't botch a translation to film."

00:40:53   And I think Zack Snyder obviously had reverence for the source material. The movie sticks about

00:40:59   as close to it as it could. I mean, you can't just shoot the graphic novel because it doesn't

00:41:04   have the pace of a movie.

00:41:06   Right. I think so too. I went back and read it, and there are definitely some differences. And

00:41:11   some people seem to think that it's—I don't know, I've talked to a lot of people who seem

00:41:15   to think that it's wildly different than the graphic novel, and I don't see that, honestly.

00:41:19   No, I almost think that it sticks to it maybe too much. I don't know.

00:41:24   The HBO series Watchmen is absolutely fantastic.

00:41:29   Yes, exactly. I really like that one. And again, it is sort of the cinematic universe play,

00:41:36   right? It's instead of, "Oh, now, you know, I guess they're talking about doing this with

00:41:41   the Harry Potter novels." They've obviously made a series of films that was super, super popular,

00:41:48   just as popular, if not more so than the novels.

00:41:50   Well, yeah, I think they're remaking them, right, on Netflix, I think.

00:41:54   I think—well, I don't know if it's Netflix or HBO because it used to be

00:41:59   Warner Brothers, but who knows who got the rights?

00:42:00   Yeah, I think I thought Netflix was—

00:42:02   But the idea being that J.K. Rowling wrote these books that—and as the series got on,

00:42:09   they got longer and longer, and so there's 800-page Chapter 5 novels.

00:42:15   This is, yeah, Harry Potter series due to hit max in 2026. So I may be thinking of The Lord

00:42:20   of the Rings, actually, because I think they're redoing The Lord of the Rings,

00:42:25   The Fellowship, Two Towers, and Return of the King as a series on Netflix.

00:42:31   Well, and it's the same—it is the same problem. I know that the tone of the two series is sort of

00:42:38   different. Harry Potter is obviously more modern and casual prose-wise, whereas The Lord of the

00:42:45   Rings, Tolkien is sort of—I mean, you're either into—I liked reading them. It's one of the few

00:42:50   series of books I've ever read twice, so I am a fan of Tolkien's work, but it is—even when I was

00:42:57   rereading it the second time, there's points where I was like, "This is like homework."

00:43:00   Right? Try reading The Silmarillion.

00:43:04   I know. Oh, I tried. That was one that I had to—

00:43:07   I tried, too. I did not get that far.

00:43:09   And I heard that it was difficult and academic, and then I was like, "Oh, they weren't kidding."

00:43:16   This is like that opening of the one book that I was like, "Eh, maybe I can flip a couple pages

00:43:22   here." And it's like the whole Silmarillion is like that. But the idea is, even if you

00:43:29   let the movies run to three hours, which is long for a movie, you're still cutting a 600-page novel

00:43:38   way down to fit there, whereas if you make Game of Thrones-style, a series of 10-hour-long episodes

00:43:46   per book, you can cover the whole book, you know?

00:43:50   Yeah.

00:43:50   I'm trying to think. Well, we were going to talk about Dark Matter, right? Which I think—

00:43:55   Yeah, yeah.

00:43:55   I haven't watched the final episode, but that's a really good show on TV+.

00:44:01   That's a great show, I think. I was surprised how much—because I watched the first episode

00:44:05   of Constellation, and that did not stick for me. And I heard from others that that was the right

00:44:13   call, but maybe some people's mileage might vary. But this show—and I was probably concerned that

00:44:21   it was going to be too dark, and it's pretty dark. There's some dark stuff that happens in it for

00:44:25   sure.

00:44:26   It is called Dark Matter.

00:44:27   Yeah, yeah, exactly. You like the main character and his family well enough. There are people who

00:44:35   you can root for, and I think that's the thing that always bothers me. There's a show where

00:44:40   there's no one that you can root for. So, this turns out to be pretty well done, and I think

00:44:46   it makes a good point about how to live your life, I guess.

00:44:53   Yeah, maybe. I mean, that's obviously the theme. Have you ever seen the show Counterpoint?

00:44:59   Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00:45:01   Jason Snell turned me on to this show a couple years ago.

00:45:06   Yeah, he's a big fan of that show. It's a good show.

00:45:08   So, I feel like we can spoil a lot of Counterpoint, but the premise—what's the main actor?

00:45:17   JK Simmons.

00:45:18   JK Simmons. And the premise of Counterpoint is that at some point, I think in the '70s,

00:45:27   it happened, but there's some kind of—

00:45:31   Or I think it's the late '80s, but I might—

00:45:34   Maybe, all right.

00:45:34   I think it's the late '80s, yeah.

00:45:36   Yeah, maybe. And maybe it was around the time that the Berlin Wall came down.

00:45:41   Yeah, because it's a Cold War story, basically. It's a Cold War story between two universes.

00:45:46   Right.

00:45:47   But that's something—

00:45:48   Two alternate realities.

00:45:49   Something happened at a secretive physics facility in Berlin that forked the universe into two

00:45:59   universes.

00:46:00   Right.

00:46:00   And—

00:46:01   So, yeah. So, it then split in '88 or something like that.

00:46:05   Yeah. And so, everybody who was born before 1988 has a—or Counterpart is the movie,

00:46:13   not Counterpoint, right?

00:46:14   Yeah, Counterpart.

00:46:14   Yeah, Counterpart, right. And everybody has a counterpart in the other universe,

00:46:21   that there's two John Grubers, two John Moltas.

00:46:25   Right.

00:46:25   And for some people, their counterparts are living very different lives than the other.

00:46:33   And it's just two worlds, and the governments have kept this very secret. Very few people in

00:46:39   either world know about the existence of the other world. As soon as I knew the premise,

00:46:46   I was like, "Oh my God, how have I not heard about this? This sounds amazing."

00:46:49   I loved the show.

00:46:51   What was it on? It was on some—it was on, like—

00:46:54   FX or something?

00:46:55   Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah. And now it's not streaming anywhere. You have to buy it.

00:47:01   Yeah.

00:47:01   Well, it's—no, it's—well, if you're in Canada, it's streaming on CTV and Apple TV,

00:47:06   but everywhere else, it looks like you have to buy it. But you can get it. Yeah, I mean,

00:47:11   you can get it most of the places.

00:47:13   And the bummer is that there were only two seasons, and it didn't get renewed, and the

00:47:19   end of the second season clearly wasn't the hoped-for end of the series.

00:47:26   Yeah.

00:47:26   It's not the—

00:47:27   I mean, it is—yeah, you can consider it an ending, but I don't think that's what they

00:47:31   were going for.

00:47:32   Yeah, and I actually have seen an interview with the showrunner who more or less said

00:47:40   they were hoping for a third season, but kind of knew that there was a chance that this

00:47:44   would be it and so sort of purpose—and I think that's what it felt like. It is unsatisfying,

00:47:50   but the show is so good that I would recommend people watch it anyway.

00:47:54   Yeah, me too.

00:47:54   Just know, though, that it's going to be unsatisfying at the end.

00:47:58   It's interesting, I mean, that's a show where the—like, J.K. Simmons plays two different

00:48:04   versions of himself, and they're very different people, even though they were the same up

00:48:08   until 1988, basically. Their lives led them in very different directions since then, and

00:48:14   so he plays them brilliantly.

00:48:16   It's unbelievable how good he is, really, because it's both—it's everything you

00:48:22   would think would be difficult and impossible. It is clearly the same guy, and you can see

00:48:28   how different events led him to be quite different 20 years afterwards.

00:48:35   But yet you definitely can feel that it is the same guy, even though they're different.

00:48:41   But yet on a scene-to-scene basis, it's very easy to tell, "Oh, that's the guy who's

00:48:47   more aggressive and successful, and this is—oh, that's the other one who's a little bit

00:48:51   more of a milquetoast bureaucrat."

00:48:53   There is Jason, the character in Dark Matter, they're much more alike, even though they

00:48:59   are still definitely different, and I think he plays them well, but they're just not

00:49:04   quite as different as J.K. Simpson.

00:49:06   Joel Edgerton.

00:49:08   Joel Edgerton, yeah.

00:49:10   Yeah, and again, because Dark Matter's new, I don't want to spoil too much, but it's

00:49:14   sort of the counterpart premise, but instead of a nuclear incident, it's a big box that

00:49:20   this guy, the main character in one of the universes, invented, and when you go into

00:49:27   it, you can go to alternate universes.

00:49:31   But there's a lot of alternate universes.

00:49:32   Are I guess infinite alternate universes, ultimately?

00:49:35   Jared Yeah.

00:49:37   And I really enjoy how they explain the process of traveling through.

00:49:42   Joel Yeah.

00:49:43   Jared Because at first it seems sort of fantastical,

00:49:48   more like fantasy than like it's a magic box, but it's not.

00:49:52   They have a decent scientific explanation for it, I think.

00:49:55   Joel Yeah, I think so too.

00:49:57   And it's another, it's a show, I forget if it's seven or eight episodes, somewhere

00:50:01   around there, but it is a show that—

00:50:03   Jared I think it's nine, isn't it?

00:50:05   Joel Oh, maybe nine?

00:50:05   I don't know.

00:50:06   But there hasn't been a bad episode, and to me, it's—

00:50:10   Jared And it gets better and better, I think.

00:50:11   Joel Yeah, I'd say so too, where I was like two

00:50:14   or three episodes in, and I thought, "This is pretty good."

00:50:17   Jared Yeah.

00:50:18   Joel And by like episode five or so, I'm like,

00:50:22   I cannot wait.

00:50:22   Jared Yeah, it's nine episodes.

00:50:24   Joel Right.

00:50:24   Jared And yeah, when you get to episode eight,

00:50:27   I was, because I sometimes watch while I'm making dinner, and I started to turn, I turned

00:50:32   on episode eight while I was making dinner, and I was just like, "Whoa, what is going

00:50:35   on here?"

00:50:36   And I had to stop.

00:50:37   I was like, "I need to be able to pay attention.

00:50:39   I can't make dinner and watch this show at the same time.

00:50:41   There's no way."

00:50:42   Joel I would wholeheartedly recommend it.

00:50:46   I really do.

00:50:46   And especially if the general idea of an alternate universe show appeals to you, then you should

00:50:52   definitely do this one.

00:50:53   But I also think it makes sense that the different Jasons are harder to tell apart because it

00:51:00   only happened recently, right?

00:51:01   Jared Yeah.

00:51:01   Joel Like the whole reason that some of the characters

00:51:04   are so different in counterpart is that it takes place 20 years after the incident or

00:51:11   whatever they call it.

00:51:11   Jared Yeah.

00:51:12   Joel You know, in two decades.

00:51:13   Jared I think it's the age of that kid, right?

00:51:15   So it's 16 years because he's learning to drive or 15, maybe 15 years.

00:51:20   Jared Right.

00:51:20   Joel Supposed to be.

00:51:21   So it's a while, but they're definitely different, but it's more subtle in ways that

00:51:26   you don't necessarily expect.

00:51:28   Jared And they play it to very good effect where

00:51:32   it's very clear that as an audience member, you're not supposed to be sure which Jason

00:51:36   you're looking at at certain points.

00:51:38   Joel Yeah.

00:51:38   Jared You know?

00:51:39   Joel Yes, yes.

00:51:39   There's a lot of trick, you know, and they fool you in a number of instances and that's

00:51:43   very fun, I think.

00:51:44   Jared Yeah, yeah.

00:51:45   They do a really good job of that and it's just, I don't know, very engaging show and

00:51:50   I don't, and you just don't, there just aren't a lot of shows like that.

00:51:54   Like, I just feel.

00:51:55   Joel I will recommend one to you that you probably

00:51:58   haven't heard of.

00:51:58   It's a British show called The Lazarus Project.

00:52:01   Jared I have not heard of it.

00:52:02   Joel Started in 2020 and it's on TNT of all things

00:52:06   and you can also, I think you can buy it or you can get it off the back of a truck.

00:52:11   It's a time travel show, but they basically, they can only jump back like a few months

00:52:16   or something like that.

00:52:17   So they're trying to protect the world from these catastrophic events and for some reason

00:52:21   that all these catastrophic events keep happening.

00:52:24   And part of the reason is because the people who are involved in the time travel project

00:52:28   keeps screwing things up.

00:52:30   It's not a comedy at all.

00:52:32   Although the parts of it are funny.

00:52:33   It's pretty, it's fairly dark, but it is like what, it's basically like what happens

00:52:38   when you know, you can manipulate time and go back and try and change things in your

00:52:43   life to make them better.

00:52:44   And a number of the people who work on the project try and do that and it really screws

00:52:48   everything up.

00:52:49   But that's a good show.

00:52:52   That's a good show too.

00:52:52   So that's two seasons as well.

00:52:54   And I'm only just started the second season.

00:52:57   Pete That sounds good.

00:52:59   I will add that to my list.

00:53:00   What was the show on Netflix?

00:53:03   It was sort of a time travel show and it takes place in four different time periods in the

00:53:09   same alleyway.

00:53:10   Jared Oh yeah.

00:53:11   Yeah, right.

00:53:12   I think we talked about that before.

00:53:14   I think I was on.

00:53:15   Pete Yeah, I think we did.

00:53:16   Jared Yeah.

00:53:16   That was pretty good too.

00:53:18   That was a, oh yeah, that was a series.

00:53:21   Yeah.

00:53:21   It felt like a movie for some reason, but that was because I guess, I guess it's only

00:53:24   one series, one season.

00:53:25   Pete Bodies.

00:53:26   Jared Bodies, right.

00:53:27   Right.

00:53:27   Pete Bodies on Netflix.

00:53:29   Yeah, it was sort of a limited, but again, it, time travel.

00:53:32   Jared Travel and alternate universes sort of go together, right?

00:53:35   Because the whole premise in time travel is that you change time and all of a sudden.

00:53:39   Pete Right.

00:53:39   You change things and then you end up with a different result.

00:53:42   Yeah.

00:53:42   Jared Or you end up disappearing from your family

00:53:44   photographs while you're playing, while you're inventing Chuck Berry on stage.

00:53:49   Bodies on Netflix was another good one.

00:53:52   Pete Yeah.

00:53:53   Jared You're on the show a couple times a year and

00:53:56   what do we talk about most of the time?

00:53:57   We talk about Apple.

00:53:59   So, what are the odds that when Apple, who I have sort of devoted my career to pontificating

00:54:06   about, that they decide to get into streaming entertainment, that they wind up being my

00:54:13   favorite streaming channel overall?

00:54:15   I mean, at this point, I'm not all winners.

00:54:17   Jared They're not all winners.

00:54:19   I mean, they take some swings and misses.

00:54:20   I thought Constellation was going to be really good.

00:54:22   I don't think it turned out so well.

00:54:24   And then the other one was Bright Side, which I didn't watch that one.

00:54:27   Pete Nobody ever really talked about it.

00:54:28   I think I watched the first episode and that didn't stick for me either.

00:54:32   I don't think very many people watched that show.

00:54:35   Jared And what was the show, I actually wound up,

00:54:38   even though, surprise, surprise, I'm a big Harrison Ford fan.

00:54:40   Pete Oh.

00:54:41   Jared I didn't like, I didn't like

00:54:42   Pete Shrinking?

00:54:43   I love shrinking.

00:54:44   Jared Shrinking.

00:54:44   But you know what?

00:54:45   Pete I like that show.

00:54:46   Jared Well, but I worry though that I only gave it

00:54:48   one episode and it's like, I never got back to it and maybe I just wasn't in the mood for it.

00:54:53   I really expected to like it. So it's, and it's just been lingering on my list of, I'll get back

00:54:59   to that, but it's, I don't know. It's like I've had a really good stretch of never running out of,

00:55:07   hey, there's a new thing that just came out that I've been really looking forward to.

00:55:10   I haven't had to dip into my older, I'll keep that in my back pocket to watch if I run out of stuff.

00:55:17   Shrinking's been on the list, but, but it really is overall, if I just

00:55:22   had to at this point pick a, there's a new show. If somebody just said, we're not even gonna tell

00:55:27   you the premise, we're not going to tell you the cast, but it's a new show and it's on, you just

00:55:32   have to pick which streaming one, but you have to watch the whole thing. I would pick Apple TV. I

00:55:37   think the average Apple TV show satisfies me and, and Amy, that we both enjoy watching these shows

00:55:44   better than any other streaming network. And the fact that a couple of these are science fictiony

00:55:50   or quite science fictiony, and yet Amy still enjoys them. I think she just is not into nerdy

00:55:57   science fiction type stuff as much as I am. And she's really like, in a way...

00:56:00   Yeah, but these are much more thoughtful. I mean, they're not, yeah. Like you said,

00:56:04   they're not pew pew. I mean, they're not like...

00:56:05   Yeah, they're not pew pew. Amy does not like watching the various Star Wars shows. I mean...

00:56:10   Yeah.

00:56:11   And...

00:56:11   Yeah, neither...

00:56:12   But like Silo...

00:56:13   Although she, and or, I mean, and or is the exception that proves the rule.

00:56:16   Yeah, yeah.

00:56:16   That's right. Because and or is just so good.

00:56:19   Yeah, but Amy didn't watch it just because. And I was like, you would like this one. She's,

00:56:23   no, I wouldn't. And I'm like, well, I'll just leave it. I'll leave it at that.

00:56:27   The thing that I'm very excited about is Apple TV got picked up the Murderbot Diaries,

00:56:32   which is a book series that I've read recently. And they plowed through, there's like six of them,

00:56:37   I think, and then a couple of short stories, or maybe it's five in short story, I can't remember,

00:56:41   but I started reading the first one and I just, I blew through the rest of them in a few weeks. And

00:56:48   it's, it's a very fun series. And I'm very excited to, I hope it's going to turn out well,

00:56:55   because I think there's a lot of good material in there.

00:56:57   Yeah, I have not heard of it. But, but again, you just tell me that Apple TV picked something up.

00:57:03   And at this point, their batting average is high enough that I'm like, oh, I'm excited.

00:57:07   The other thing I really am loving about Apple TV is that when they haven't once broken my heart

00:57:17   with a cancellation. Which I guess not. Right. Yeah. Trying to think if there was

00:57:23   anything. They've, there've been some shows they haven't renewed, but I don't think any of the ones

00:57:30   that gained traction, right? I'm guessing, I'm going to guess Constellation doesn't get a season

00:57:35   two. I think they've already announced that it's not having one. Right. And I wonder if they'll do

00:57:39   Dark Matter, because I mean, this one, this is a show that it's a little bit more, I think,

00:57:43   because people who read the books, I thought said that they were using material from,

00:57:47   I think there's three of them or something like that. And that they were using material from all

00:57:51   three. So I feel like maybe they don't need to do another season, but I would certainly enjoy it if

00:57:56   they did. All right. Well, Silo got picked up. Did you watch Silo? Yes. Oh, Silo. That's the other

00:58:01   one. Yeah. I like Silo. Yeah. I think Dark Matter is a little bit better for me, but I really enjoyed

00:58:05   Silo. Silo had the sort of padding out problem that I see in so many eight, nine, ten episode

00:58:15   seasons. Yeah. Where everybody always, of course, wants a good, you got to have a good first episode

00:58:19   to grip people and everybody wants to finish well. It's those episodes four and five where sometimes

00:58:26   you're like, I kind of feel like they had a contract to deliver nine episodes and they had

00:58:31   six and a half episodes of good scripts. Yeah. And here we are in the middle of it. I feel like

00:58:35   that's a problem in a lot of the Marvel and Star Wars. Definitely. I really think so with that

00:58:41   stuff. I don't want to go off on a Star Wars would be a whole other episode, but I liked the Obi-Wan

00:58:49   Kenobi show overall, but I really feel like the easiest thing they could have done to make it

00:58:55   better is make it shorter. I honestly think that they might've been able to cut it down to a two

00:59:00   hour or a little more than a two hour movie and it would have had way more dramatic impact. I just

00:59:07   thought, man, there's. Yeah, there is apparently someone has edited it. Someone that I want to

00:59:12   watch. I want to watch that because there's an edited version that, and I don't think it's the

00:59:17   kind of thing where it was like, oh, we're going to take out all of the characters of color. Cause

00:59:21   there are definitely those kinds of edits. I think it's more like, no, we're just going to tighten

00:59:25   this up a little bit. And I think you're right. It would benefit from that. So I would like to

00:59:29   watch that. Like there's one episode again, not spoiling it, but there's at least all I remember

00:59:34   from at least one entire episode of the show is it's Obi-Wan and a couple of characters who he's

00:59:40   trying to rescue in a spaceship that's being chased. And that's the whole thing. They're just

00:59:47   there, you know, like are the shields going to hold up? Are we going to make it? Can we,

00:59:52   can we fix the hyperdrive before they blow us up? Oh yeah. And that was a, that was a problem,

00:59:57   very big problem, I think with the first season of Foundation. There's a lot of stuff that happens in

01:00:02   the middle there where it's just like, nothing is really accomplished or it'll do a bunch of things.

01:00:08   And then like an episode later, it's all reset back to where they were at the beginning. And

01:00:13   it's like, why did we take that journey? The second season I think is significantly better

01:00:18   than the first season. Are you talking about Foundation? Foundation, yeah. Yeah, I agree too.

01:00:22   That's another, but that's another high profile science fiction story. I don't know. I'm just

01:00:27   really glad and I feel like Apple is leaning into the fact that Apple doesn't own any major

01:00:36   franchises, you know, that they don't have a Star Wars or a Harry Potter to milk. And yes, I guess

01:00:43   the closest they've gotten is with the monarch legacy of monsters, which is in a cinematic

01:00:49   universe. But overall, it just feels like they're picking up cool books or a series of books like

01:00:56   the silo and like the dark matter. And yeah, let's just do that and we'll just make sort of...

01:01:01   There's plenty of material out there. It's not like you don't need to redo all the same things

01:01:07   over and over again. Although I will say in general, I am opposed to making big companies

01:01:14   even bigger, but I do very much, because it is so dear to my heart, want Star Trek to find a decent

01:01:20   home and Paramount is making that very difficult, unfortunately. Yeah, it's too good of a franchise

01:01:27   to be on a floundering platform. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And they've got, they almost sold it and

01:01:32   then they seemed to blow up the deal. So I don't know. Yeah. Trying to think here, what else? Is

01:01:38   there any other shows that we want to mention? I am, I just started watching. Have you watched

01:01:42   Sugar? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Oh man. Yeah. Another one. A show that you don't even have to... We shouldn't

01:01:51   do details on that show. Right. You don't even have to warn me, but it's like the less you know,

01:01:56   the better. Right. But boy, was that really good. And I had no idea what to expect from it. No,

01:02:04   I didn't either. Yeah. To the point where I'm not even sure why I decided to watch it. It was like,

01:02:12   something about it. It's, I don't know. I kind of like detective shows. Yeah. Yeah. It has a good

01:02:16   mood. It's a modern detective noir. Yeah. Like a modern Rockford Files sort of vibe. And it's like,

01:02:27   and every single episode I was like, man, that was pretty cool. I have no idea where they're going.

01:02:34   And then all of a sudden it's like, I wrote... What? One thing I really liked about Sugar I've

01:02:42   noticed, have you noticed this? Sugar episodes are really curiously long. They're not that they are

01:02:49   long, but the length is curious. There's a bunch of them that are only like 35, 36, 37 minutes.

01:02:53   They're curiously short. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is just great. It's okay. Here's a story.

01:03:00   It turns out it's 37 minutes long. It's like a chapter in a eight episode arc. This one turns

01:03:07   out we've got 37 minutes, a beginning, a middle, an end. The end leaves you wanting more. It's,

01:03:13   Oh my God, that's a twist. I didn't see coming. But instead of adding 20 more minutes because

01:03:19   they're all supposed to be about an hour. It's yeah. If you got 37. Yeah. I mean, none of these

01:03:24   are going to be shown on, I don't think they're ever going to appear on network TV. It's like,

01:03:29   you don't have to worry about like sticking a couple of commercials in and making it be an hour.

01:03:33   You know, you're doing a streaming service, just make them an hour long they should be.

01:03:37   While we're saying about curiously short episodes, the other show that pops to mind on that is,

01:03:43   and I know you and I have spoken about this a year or two ago, Servant,

01:03:47   which is also on Apple TV, sort of. Yeah, I only watched the first episode of that.

01:03:53   It's M Night Shyamalan and it is a very M Night Shyamalan premise. I'm not big on horror to begin

01:04:00   with. Yeah, so and that's, this is all coming. It's usually a tough sell, but. It's all coming

01:04:07   back to me, which is why you didn't watch it. But if you like horror, it's good. And it was,

01:04:13   it was like a must watch for our family because they literally shoot the show, like three blocks

01:04:20   from our house. It is not just in Philadelphia, but in our neighborhood, which is like bizarre.

01:04:26   The funnest thing they ever did, at least as when they're shooting in your neighborhood, was making

01:04:33   early October look like a snowy middle of winter. But it's like salt, like the fake snow was all

01:04:40   salt. And really, yeah, it was really, really cool. And you could like just sort of walk. I mean,

01:04:45   they had like police barricades, so you wouldn't, wasn't like I could wander onto the set. But

01:04:50   yeah, I could wander by the end of the block and just sort of stick my foot out and crunch.

01:04:54   And it's man, I was like, how are they going to clean this up? And then you come back,

01:04:58   literally the next day, it's all gone, gone. I mean, do they just wash it into the,

01:05:03   I don't know. I have no idea. I really thought that I was like, I don't know. I bet this is,

01:05:08   it seems like that wouldn't be great. I was like, I'll bet all this salt that is posing as fake snow

01:05:14   is really easy to dump in shape. And I bet it's going to be a week before they clean it up. And

01:05:18   I came by the next day and it was just gone. It was unbelievable. It was like the crew that John

01:05:22   Wick calls to clean up a crime scene. But that's, that's,

01:05:27   Pete: Speaking of that, there's another, is it Clooney and Brad Pitt?

01:05:33   Pete: Yeah. Yeah. They showed that at the WWDC keynote that it's,

01:05:36   Pete; Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. That looks like that might be fun.

01:05:40   Pete; Yeah. Yeah. But they're always good together, but that's, I don't know. It just seems like

01:05:45   that's, it's just become the home for people who, you know, and again, not like highbrow

01:05:50   entertainment per se, but just sort of, Hey, you don't have to completely turn off your brain

01:05:57   entertainment. And I, it's just kind of amazing to me that it's Apple of all companies that's sort of

01:06:04   eking out the specialty. I'm trying to think if there's any other show I wanted to shout out. Oh,

01:06:08   I know what it was. I just started watching Presumed Innocent, not science fiction.

01:06:12   Pete; Yeah.

01:06:13   Pete; Jake Gyllenhaal. There was a Harrison Ford movie that I haven't seen

01:06:18   probably since it was new in the 80s and, you know, it's…

01:06:22   Pete; That's the thing. I saw that movie and now I feel like I know the,

01:06:24   maybe they'll change it at the end, but I know the, it's sort of a who done it and I know who

01:06:30   did it. Pete; Right. Well, I don't remember the movie, so don't say anything. I don't,

01:06:35   I don't know where it's going, thankfully, but it is, it's the classic Hitchcock

01:06:41   man accused of a crime he didn't commit, but with the twist of, or did he commit it? I don't know.

01:06:48   Right? That's, I… Pete; Harrison Ford, that was the, he had a lot of,

01:06:52   got a lot of traction out of that genre, I think. Pete; Right, right. Because what was the,

01:06:56   the Tommy Lee Jones one? Pete; Yeah. The Fugitive.

01:06:59   Pete; The Fugitive, right. Pete; And then there's another one, there's another one where he goes to

01:07:03   Paris with his wife and she disappears. Pete; Oh yes. That's, that's the…

01:07:08   Pete; No, it's not missing, but it's… Pete; No, but that's the one that was directed by

01:07:11   Creepy McCreeperson… Pete; Polanski?

01:07:15   Pete; Yeah, Polanski. Pete; Oh, okay. Oh, God, I forgot that.

01:07:18   Pete; So, keep it in your back pocket. Pete; Yeah, yeah. I mean, I haven't,

01:07:23   I've not watched it since the '80s. Pete; Polanski, Harrison Ford, Frantic.

01:07:29   Pete; Frantic, yeah, that's right. Pete; Yeah, yeah. Takes place in France because…

01:07:33   Pete; Because he can't leave. Pete; Because they don't, they wouldn't extradite him to

01:07:38   the United States if they shot the film in Paris. They shouldn't laugh. It's not…

01:07:42   Pete; No, it's terrible, yeah. Pete; But he, but, but unfortunately,

01:07:46   well, fortunately or unfortunately, he is a talented director, but it is what it is. But

01:07:52   I don't think Frantic is going to happen in today's world. But yes, Harrison Ford has eked

01:07:58   out a pretty good sub-career in man accused of crimes he didn't commit or did he, sort of things.

01:08:05   Pete; What's the, what's the Amish movie? He's not, he's not…

01:08:08   Pete; Witness. Pete; Witness, yeah. He's not guilty,

01:08:11   and you know, he's not a suspect in that one, but he's on the run.

01:08:14   Pete; Yeah. But Presumed Innocent, I'm like two episodes in, and it's pretty good.

01:08:19   And it really did, there was a moment where I thought to myself, boy, I'm glad I've never

01:08:25   cheated on my wife and had the woman I was cheating with wind up, wind up gruesomely,

01:08:30   murder, and I'm like, ooh, wait, I should… Pete; That's awkward.

01:08:33   Pete; Yeah, I shouldn't actually say that out loud. That's, that's what's keeping me honest.

01:08:40   Pete; I was gonna cheat on her. I just don't want to go through that.

01:08:44   Pete; Yeah. Pete; Because I know it would happen.

01:08:46   Pete; I was gonna cheat on my wife, but what if she gets murdered?

01:08:53   They're gonna come and look at me. And then I'm gonna have to…

01:08:55   Pete; Karen was interested in watching that show, then she got, she got sucked back into the wire,

01:08:59   a rewatch of The Wire, so… Pete; Oh, boy, there you go.

01:09:02   Pete; Which is really good. She wanted to watch Homicide, but you can't, it's not streaming

01:09:05   anywhere. Pete; Well, and, but I heard that it's going too soon.

01:09:08   Pete; Is it? Okay. Pete; Yeah, I heard that it was like the…

01:09:10   Pete; I'll have to find that, I'll have to find that, because she's, yeah.

01:09:11   Pete; The good news of the summer is that, like, the most wanted to stream show that's

01:09:18   never streamed is Homicide, and I think maybe it has something to do because Andre Brauer

01:09:24   died last year and it sort of re-upped it, like, hey, this was too good a show not to be streaming,

01:09:31   let's take this one off the pile and prioritize figuring out a way to get it on Netflix or

01:09:37   somewhere. Pete; Yeah, I see that here. Let's see.

01:09:38   Trying to see which, HBO, I guess. Pete; Yeah, yeah.

01:09:44   Pete; Just one of those articles where they, like, put the thing that you want all the way

01:09:49   down at the bottom so that you have to scroll through.

01:09:51   Pete; All the way down at the bottom. Are the people in your family, are they,

01:09:56   are they subtitles fans? Pete; Yes, yeah. And we've become

01:10:02   subtitles fans over the years. And now, like, I mean, I think Karen and I turn it on, I mean,

01:10:08   Hank has a bit of a hearing loss, so I think that's how it started. He always needs them

01:10:12   and would always prefer them. And then now that I've gotten used to them, I like to have them on.

01:10:18   Pete; I don't watch most shows with them on, but I need them for a couple of shows. I've griped

01:10:24   about it on the, you know, in my writing sometimes about the way that audio gets mixed these days,

01:10:30   or I was writing about the fact that certain apps on Apple TV don't support, there's a triple click

01:10:34   shortcut to, you triple click the back button and it automatically does the go back 15 seconds and

01:10:43   turn on subtitles temporarily. One of the coolest features they announced at WWDC, which is sort of

01:10:49   like, hey, why didn't somebody think of this a while ago, is it's when you go back 15 seconds,

01:10:54   they're just, it's, Apple TV is just going to turn on subtitles automatically. So, like,

01:10:59   you just go back with the new, come fall when the new tvOS update comes out, which is a great

01:11:05   feature. I'm sure there's an option to turn it off, but every time I go back 15 or 30 seconds,

01:11:10   I do want subtitles back on. But I think the other thing about watching more English language stuff

01:11:16   with subtitles on, either throughout or just for stretches or certain scenes, is it's made

01:11:23   watching foreign language stuff better, like, to go back to Godzilla minus one. Amy and Jonas,

01:11:32   just less of a fan of foreign films with subtitles than I am. Nobody's got their foot down like, no,

01:11:37   I'm not going to do it, but yeah. Well, like I said, I watch a lot of stuff while I'm doing

01:11:42   something else, like usually making dinner. And so, when it is a foreign language movie or show,

01:11:48   I have to devote other time to it in order to be able to understand. I've tried watching, like,

01:11:52   I tried to watch Dark with the Dub version and I just, it doesn't work as well, I think,

01:11:58   because everyone says Dark is such a great show and I started watching and thought, this is dumb.

01:12:02   And I think it's just because I'm listening to the Dub version. So,

01:12:05   Trying to think, is there anything else? That's probably enough recommendations.

01:12:11   To follow up on homicide, I think they haven't picked a streamer yet, but I think,

01:12:14   yeah, the point is that they can now sell it to a streamer. So,

01:12:17   Right. That they've at least packaged it up. Should be coming soon, yeah.

01:12:21   Right. It was pretty cool. That's the other thing too, is sometimes these things happen by surprise.

01:12:25   Netflix is pretty good at keeping stuff under surprise. There was some weird, just to bring it

01:12:30   full circle back to Godzilla minus one, there was some weird licensing thing with Godzilla minus one,

01:12:39   where the, to make a prequel that's sort of outside the cinematic universe that Universal

01:12:47   is currently spending billions on, the streaming rights for Godzilla minus one were ambiguous for

01:12:55   a while, you know, and it hit theaters last fall, was a surprise hit. It won the Oscar for best

01:13:00   visual effects and it got really high remarks from reviewers. And they were like, but this kind of

01:13:06   stinks because you'd think ordinarily like six weeks after it leaves theaters, it'll hit streaming

01:13:11   somewhere and it didn't. And then all of a sudden it was like the news came out, Netflix has it,

01:13:17   and it's there right now. You can just go watch it today, which is sort of the Netflix way,

01:13:22   which is kind of cool instead of, oh yeah, write that down or put it in your app so that three

01:13:27   months from now, you'll be reminded to watch this movie that's coming to Netflix. Netflix is like,

01:13:32   nope, there it is. Just hit play. Yeah.

01:13:34   Yeah. And so that was one, yeah, which was in a foreign language. And also I managed to squeeze

01:13:40   in, like I didn't know what else in my family wanted to watch it particularly. And so I,

01:13:43   when Karen and Hank were out of the house, I got to watch it on the big screen TV. So that was,

01:13:47   because I wanted to make sure I was seeing it on something that was decently sized,

01:13:51   because I think that would have been a good one to see in the theater, but I just missed it.

01:13:54   That's about it for me. I am looking forward to now that it is out. Have you watched The Bear?

01:14:00   Oh, I have not seen, yeah, I've seen the first two seasons, but have not. Yeah, the

01:14:04   most recent season just came out the other day.

01:14:07   Right. And they did the Netflix, it's on FX, but they did the Netflix style. Here,

01:14:12   we'll just drop the whole season. Huge fan of that show.

01:14:14   That's a tough one to watch. I mean, I think I have to space those

01:14:17   down a little bit, even though they dropped them all in one day.

01:14:21   Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, it was called, what was it? The episode was titled Three Fishes,

01:14:26   but it was the, yeah, but boy, that was, that was,

01:14:32   Rough.

01:14:33   It was the most realistic depiction of a family holiday get together I've ever seen put together.

01:14:43   I think ours, ours never got quite that bad.

01:14:45   Well, in the way that it was, yes, it was a little worse than my family or anything I've seen, but

01:14:53   the feeling of it was, including the fact, and it's just like a little thing that's always

01:15:01   driven me nuts, even as a little kid, the way that in movies, people have much bigger houses

01:15:07   than people in real life have. And in that episode, it's like a one hour episode about a

01:15:13   Christmas dinner with an extended family and a lot of, a lot of tension between family members.

01:15:20   And sort of a documentary feel, you know, like it's not quite like the old 24 show where it

01:15:26   takes place in real time, but it was, you know, maybe two hours of a family dinner compressed

01:15:31   to 45 minutes. But the thing that really got me as, oh my God, this is so realistic, is trying to

01:15:37   fit 12 family members around a dining room table that ordinarily is for five or six people. And

01:15:44   it's like everybody's chair is up against the wall. And when two family members maybe are going to

01:15:50   have a fist fight, they can't even get to each other because it's too crowded. That to me,

01:15:55   on both sides of my family for decades is sort of the feeling of like Christmas or Thanksgiving

01:16:01   dinner. It's give me that chair. I don't care if my back is against the wall. And then I'm like,

01:16:05   why did I take this chair? I can't even stand up. We went to, my mom had her 90th birthday last

01:16:11   November. And so the family flew to Florida to see her. And we were there for a few days. We

01:16:17   had a very good time. One night at dinner, we go to dinner at a very nice place and we're arguing

01:16:24   fairly quickly after dinner. But the wait staff there was so great. The guy, like the maitre d'

01:16:30   came up and I think he was from Albania. I think he said he was from Albania. And he's,

01:16:36   and like we're having this argument and the guy comes up and says, gosh, you made it 20 minutes.

01:16:42   Usually in Albania, we're fighting by the first five. And it just like, it deflated the whole

01:16:49   thing. And the rest of the evening was great. That's a gamble. I appreciate it.

01:16:54   Yeah. But I think that's a gutsy move and I wrote, but it worked.

01:16:58   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Read the family. That would fly very well in my family too, as an icebreaker.

01:17:05   But I can imagine some other families where it just makes it worse. Now we've got the waiter

01:17:10   involved. Right. All right. Thank you, John. That's a pretty good watch list, I think, for

01:17:18   our listeners for the rest of the summer. Yeah, we live in a golden age of television.

01:17:21   We really, really do. It's pretty lucky. I will just give a shout out to our sponsor of the

01:17:27   episode, our good friends at Squarespace. Go to squarespace.com/talkshow and otherwise,

01:17:33   see you soon. Okay.

01:17:34   Otherwise see you soon. Okay