518: Having Lots of Money Doesn't Make You a Bank


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade,

00:00:12   episode 518 for June 24th, 2024.

00:00:16   This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,

00:00:19   Vitally, KRCS and Ladder.

00:00:22   My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined

00:00:24   by my fun summer co-host, Jason Snell.

00:00:27   - Hanging loose over here, Mike, woo!

00:00:30   Happy, happy episode 518.

00:00:33   - Get ready to ride the ripcarl of this Snell Talk,

00:00:37   which comes in from Bromwyn and is summer themed.

00:00:40   - Thank goodness.

00:00:41   - Jason, when you enter a body of water

00:00:43   that you suspect may be chilly,

00:00:46   are you a toe tester or are you a jump straight inner?

00:00:50   - Oh, toe tester, for sure.

00:00:51   - Yeah, toe testing.

00:00:52   - Toe tester, and in fact, then if it proves

00:00:55   to be not incredibly warm, I am a gradualer.

00:01:00   I am a gradualer.

00:01:02   I prefer to just very slowly psych myself up

00:01:05   as I get deeper and deeper into the water

00:01:08   until finally I reach a point of no return

00:01:11   and I give up and I completely submerge.

00:01:13   That's just how I do it.

00:01:15   - You're quite different to me, let me tell you.

00:01:18   - Interesting you're a jump straight inner?

00:01:19   - No, I'm actually something in the middle.

00:01:21   I confidently move, right?

00:01:24   So if I'm going to a pool and I get into the steps,

00:01:28   I just go, I just walk through.

00:01:30   - You don't jump in, but you stride at a constant rate.

00:01:36   - I just don't stop, right?

00:01:37   I'm walking down the steps and then as soon

00:01:39   as my feet touch the ground, I'm going under.

00:01:42   That's me, straight under, do a lap and I'm good to go.

00:01:46   Or straight under, this is harder to do in the ocean.

00:01:51   But I will do the same in the ocean to the degree

00:01:55   that I can of just confidently walking through.

00:01:57   That to me is like if I focus on the confident movement,

00:02:02   I don't get so freaked out by the cold.

00:02:04   - Even on the beach in Hawaii, I will get my feet in

00:02:07   and then I will, if I'm going in, I'll just keep going in

00:02:09   and get up to the ankles and the waves will come over you

00:02:12   and that helps 'cause it climateizes you.

00:02:14   - Yep.

00:02:15   - And eventually you're like, all right, that's fine.

00:02:18   And you go all the way down.

00:02:20   And that's a key too, you gotta go all the way down.

00:02:23   Even if it's not depth of your height,

00:02:28   at some point you're like, I just have to get in

00:02:30   because then once you get in, then your skin

00:02:32   is gonna match the water temperature instead,

00:02:36   which is better, so yeah.

00:02:38   - Thank you to Bronwyn for that question.

00:02:40   If you would like to send us in a summer themed snow talk,

00:02:44   it could be a snow talk of any kind,

00:02:45   but right now we are particularly looking

00:02:47   for summer themed questions.

00:02:48   Go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send yours in.

00:02:53   - You know what we do?

00:02:54   We start the show and then we stride right in

00:02:58   to snow talk every time, walking confidently,

00:03:00   like Mike Hurley does into a body of water.

00:03:03   - I was trying to think of a way to bring that in,

00:03:07   but I couldn't do it and you've done it,

00:03:09   so I appreciate that.

00:03:10   - Thank you, it's the service I provide.

00:03:12   - It's a good service.

00:03:13   Let's do some follow up, Jason Snow.

00:03:17   - Sounds great.

00:03:18   - A friend of the show, David Smith,

00:03:20   has a good suggestion, I thought,

00:03:22   that he posted on Mastodon for how Apple could have

00:03:26   a light mode tinting with the home screen.

00:03:28   So at the moment, if you wanna do any

00:03:30   of the new color tinting, you are doing this

00:03:33   with dark icons, dark background icons,

00:03:36   which I don't think should be the only way to do things.

00:03:40   And I think that Underscore did a really good job of,

00:03:44   basically he just inverted a home screen that he made

00:03:47   and everything's light and purple

00:03:48   rather than dark and green,

00:03:50   and I think it looks really nice.

00:03:52   And I think Underscore did a,

00:03:55   I really like this post, so he says,

00:03:58   he talks about this is what I think,

00:04:01   and I think I have my own opinions of this.

00:04:04   He follows it up by saying,

00:04:05   "Of the top five themes in Widget Smith,

00:04:07   "four of them have light backgrounds

00:04:09   "and two are completely white."

00:04:10   And what I like about this post is that,

00:04:12   and then David also follows this up for feedback.

00:04:15   He couldn't have done this in a better way,

00:04:17   in my opinion, of like,

00:04:18   "Oh, by the way, I have millions of users

00:04:22   "and they make these choices."

00:04:24   So I thought this is a good way of putting his case across.

00:04:28   - Yeah, it is, they look good,

00:04:31   and then he's got the numbers to back it up.

00:04:33   It makes me wonder who decides these things at Apple,

00:04:38   and what do they use to decide them, right?

00:04:43   Because Apple is famously like,

00:04:45   "Oh, no, no, no, no, we're not gonna use focus groups.

00:04:47   "We're not gonna," which isn't true, they do research,

00:04:49   but like, "Oh no, but we're gonna just make

00:04:51   "the right decision 'cause the users

00:04:52   "don't always know what they want."

00:04:54   But in this case, David's very popular app

00:04:59   that really kicked this off and was referred to

00:05:01   by executives, right, of the whole customization thing,

00:05:05   the whole making your home screen your own trend

00:05:10   that four years later, they're like,

00:05:12   "Oh yeah, people want that, we should do that."

00:05:15   He's learned, and his stats are, I would say, pretty solid

00:05:20   that the people who want to make an effort

00:05:23   to customize their home screens prefer actually

00:05:27   to customize them in a light mode and not a dark mode.

00:05:30   And I mean, everything Apple showed is in dark mode,

00:05:33   and that's what's on the betas,

00:05:34   which leads me to believe that they think that that's it,

00:05:37   and the job is done, and I just, I wonder,

00:05:41   what are they basing that on?

00:05:42   Why did they choose that?

00:05:44   Was there just a designer somewhere,

00:05:45   or a couple of designers who were like,

00:05:47   "Eh, I kinda like a better dark,"

00:05:48   and they're like, "Okay, we'll ship that."

00:05:50   Or did somebody actually do some research?

00:05:52   Because based on David's statistics,

00:05:55   it would suggest they've made the wrong decision here,

00:05:57   or at least they haven't made a complete decision,

00:06:00   which is to have two options, a light base and a dark base.

00:06:03   So bless David, he did the mock-up,

00:06:07   he shows the different compare and contrasts,

00:06:10   he files a feedback, and he's really trying

00:06:13   to prevent Apple from making a mistake.

00:06:17   So it's up to Apple now to listen to that,

00:06:21   but it troubles me that David's numbers could be so clear,

00:06:26   and that Apple would just do this other thing,

00:06:28   because it makes me think that they're not,

00:06:32   it's not like if the users want it, give it to them.

00:06:35   - I don't believe Apple has the data that David has, right?

00:06:38   So I think David has--

00:06:40   - That may be true.

00:06:40   - Right, because this kind of thing has not existed before,

00:06:44   like they have no way of basing it,

00:06:46   and I expect it was a design decision

00:06:49   that they've made so far,

00:06:50   where they're like, "We think this looks better."

00:06:53   And that is fine, these things are all an element of taste,

00:06:57   but at a certain point, data is important,

00:07:00   and he has that data.

00:07:02   Like for all we know, Underscore's taste are dark taste,

00:07:07   and he was like, "Oh, I would like dark mode,"

00:07:08   but then he was surprised with what his users did.

00:07:10   I mean, frankly, WidgetSmith in and of itself is a surprise.

00:07:15   Like what this app was originally made to do

00:07:18   is not what ended up becoming the thing

00:07:21   that people wanted it for.

00:07:23   Right, like Underscore was thinking,

00:07:24   "How can I make widgets have the most utility

00:07:28   that they possibly can?"

00:07:29   But it turned out people wanted visual customization.

00:07:33   And so these things can be a surprise,

00:07:35   and so maybe like at Apple, they're like,

00:07:38   "Oh, we think dark mode's the way to go here,"

00:07:41   but actually people would like the choice.

00:07:43   And I honestly cannot understand why they didn't do both.

00:07:48   And I also think, for me, I can't see a scenario

00:07:52   why they couldn't change that before release.

00:07:55   This doesn't feel like something

00:07:57   that is massively complicated.

00:07:59   For me, I feel like if you have built the system

00:08:02   to do it in dark mode, how hard could it be really

00:08:07   to also do that in a light mode in the next three months?

00:08:11   I mean, to me, that doesn't seem

00:08:13   like an insurmountable challenge.

00:08:16   - I agree.

00:08:17   It seems like a fairly understandable, limited kind

00:08:21   of concept of there's a light mode and a dark mode option.

00:08:25   And I also just like David's mock-up better.

00:08:30   I mean, I like it better. - Me too, me too.

00:08:31   - I think it looks nice.

00:08:32   I think that there's a reason why people tend

00:08:35   for a light mode and not dark mode on their devices.

00:08:37   - I use my phone in dark mode all the time,

00:08:42   but I want dark mode in app content.

00:08:45   I don't want my home screen to be in dark mode.

00:08:47   That's not something that I am looking for.

00:08:50   - Right, you just want the background.

00:08:52   I had this the other day.

00:08:53   I realized, I had a realization

00:08:55   when I was doing MacBreak Weekly, which is a video show,

00:08:58   that every time I do it, every time I open up

00:09:01   a browser window to read a story, a giant,

00:09:04   I got a 27 inch monitor a few inches away from my face,

00:09:07   and you open up a giant webpage in light mode on the Mac,

00:09:11   and it's like blasting a new light on my face.

00:09:14   And my face lights up on the video.

00:09:16   It's very distracting.

00:09:18   And I realized, oh, you know what?

00:09:19   I need to put my Mac in dark mode for MacBreak Weekly

00:09:23   because I don't actually like dark mode on the Mac,

00:09:25   but I absolutely should do that

00:09:28   because I don't want that effect.

00:09:29   And I feel like that is why,

00:09:31   that is a key reason why you use dark mode in any scenario,

00:09:34   is you don't want the big blast of the white background.

00:09:38   And so I agree with you that there are places

00:09:43   where dark mode for content makes sense,

00:09:46   but on the home screen,

00:09:47   I don't necessarily want it to be that way.

00:09:49   - You know, I'd forgotten if I was using light mode

00:09:52   or dark mode on my Mac,

00:09:54   because I don't, like I'm just looking at it now.

00:09:57   And now I'm looking at it again, I can see that I do,

00:10:00   but I just changed the system to light mode.

00:10:02   And I felt like my eyes were about to explode.

00:10:04   So it turns out I am using my Mac on dark mode.

00:10:08   - And that's fine.

00:10:10   I had to install a Safari plugin too,

00:10:12   because Google doesn't have a dark mode for Google docs.

00:10:15   - No, I wish that they did.

00:10:17   They do on the iPhone.

00:10:19   - Yeah, so I installed Noir on the Mac.

00:10:23   And now when I'm in dark mode for MacBreak Weekly,

00:10:27   my, you know, all the show documents

00:10:28   and everything else also are dark mode and that's better.

00:10:33   It's better.

00:10:34   - It's weird that you can't do it for,

00:10:37   like on the web version,

00:10:39   'cause they have the technology.

00:10:41   - I know.

00:10:43   - I wanted to talk about an Apple film for a moment.

00:10:48   So Apple, they're making a film about Formula One,

00:10:52   which is obviously of interest to me.

00:10:54   It's starring Brad Pitt

00:10:56   and it's directed by Joseph Kosinski,

00:10:58   who directed Top Gun Maverick.

00:11:01   And Apple have announced a release date

00:11:03   for this movie in theaters starting June 25th, 2025.

00:11:06   It's being distributed by Warner Brothers

00:11:08   as part of Apple's like continued deals that they're doing

00:11:11   with companies to do film distribution.

00:11:14   The budget of this movie is said to be currently

00:11:17   over $250 million, which is a lot of money.

00:11:21   And I think one of the reasons that this movie is costing,

00:11:24   what it is costing is the way in which they are shooting it

00:11:27   in that they are driving real Formula Two cars

00:11:32   that are mocked up to look like Formula One cars

00:11:35   during Formula One race weekends.

00:11:37   They've done it a couple of times last year,

00:11:39   they're doing it a couple of times this year

00:11:41   with the Formula One drivers that currently are driving.

00:11:44   So, and actually Lewis Hamilton is a,

00:11:47   I think a producer in the movie.

00:11:49   So I think like this is part of why you can imagine

00:11:51   the budget is getting higher and higher on this

00:11:53   because they are doing something quite ambitious

00:11:56   in that they are filming these cars

00:11:59   with high quality cameras while real cars are driving

00:12:02   during Formula One race weekends.

00:12:04   You can see how cost will balloon

00:12:06   if that's what you wanna do.

00:12:08   So this made me think what I wanted to talk to you about is

00:12:12   what is the aim here at this point?

00:12:18   A $250 million movie, if it was being released

00:12:23   under regular circumstances, you would need to make

00:12:28   five, six, $700 million for this movie

00:12:31   to be considered successful

00:12:33   in the typical Hollywood environment, right?

00:12:36   That's what I have gone from listening to the town.

00:12:40   Like that's the kind of money you'd need to make

00:12:41   in the box office.

00:12:43   Are Apple actually going to try and make that money

00:12:46   in the box office?

00:12:47   Do they want to distribute this movie in such a way

00:12:51   that it could make half a billion dollars

00:12:53   before they would put it on Apple TV+?

00:12:55   Because if they don't wanna do that,

00:12:56   why are they spending all this money

00:12:58   on the movies that they're making?

00:12:59   Like what is the aim here?

00:13:01   So I just wanted to know what you thought about that.

00:13:03   - Yeah, it is, it's a question of our time.

00:13:06   I would say Apple wants to be,

00:13:10   I mean, just look at that Apple TV+ thing

00:13:12   that they roll at the top of WWDC, right?

00:13:15   Apple wants to be in business

00:13:19   and have good relationships with key people in Hollywood.

00:13:23   They wanna be, they want to win awards,

00:13:28   they want to release movies and TV shows with big stars.

00:13:33   They want to establish that the sort of like Apple's brand

00:13:37   is an entertainment brand as well.

00:13:40   And that look at these, all of these well-known people

00:13:42   and they're using their money to do that.

00:13:44   I think financially the goal is to continue

00:13:49   to burnish Apple TV+'s reputation as well,

00:13:53   because their biggest challenge

00:13:54   is that it's a very small service

00:13:56   and people don't feel that it's essential.

00:13:58   I think it's the same reason why they do some sports stuff

00:14:00   is they're just trying to get people to try it.

00:14:03   Because as we know, the more they go here,

00:14:06   their catalog has actually gotten pretty good

00:14:09   of just originals.

00:14:09   If you're somebody who's never done Apple TV+ now,

00:14:12   you're gonna go, "Oh, well, I always heard good things

00:14:15   about Ted Lasso or For All Mankind

00:14:17   or The Morning Show or Severance."

00:14:20   Right, like you can watch a lot of stuff in Apple TV+.

00:14:23   Plus they've got those movies there,

00:14:24   which drive, I'm sure they drive

00:14:28   a certain amount of engagement, right?

00:14:30   Killers of the Flower Moon

00:14:31   probably drove a certain number of people to be like,

00:14:33   "Okay, I'll get Apple TV+ for that

00:14:36   and then I'll look at the catalog."

00:14:37   And so that's one of the things that they're trying to do

00:14:40   is just be, so some of it is prestige

00:14:43   and some of it is just getting people to consider Apple

00:14:47   either now or in the future as a service

00:14:49   that they wanna subscribe to.

00:14:51   It's a weird game, right?

00:14:52   But that seems to be the game they're playing

00:14:54   as they're going for prestige

00:14:56   and to make Apple TV+ seem like

00:14:59   a more appealing destination for people,

00:15:02   which they can afford to do, right?

00:15:03   They can afford to lose money.

00:15:04   I mean, not a lot of money in the long run.

00:15:07   They don't want to do that because it is still money.

00:15:09   But I think they still view it sort of like strategically

00:15:13   and giving a kind of halo to the whole Apple brand

00:15:16   and the Apple entertainment brand.

00:15:18   I would say that if Apple was a company

00:15:19   that was in difficult straits

00:15:22   and there was a lot of pressure on the executives

00:15:24   to increase profits and cut things that aren't working,

00:15:29   this would get cut almost immediately.

00:15:33   But it's not, it's not.

00:15:36   It's seen as an empire building play here.

00:15:39   - I don't think they should be in the movie making business.

00:15:41   I think they should be in the TV business.

00:15:44   I don't think that these movies

00:15:49   will drive enough long-term engagement.

00:15:53   Like the reason I say that is like with a streaming service,

00:15:57   you need to provide people with a value

00:15:59   that continues to get them to want to stay

00:16:02   as part of the service.

00:16:04   And a TV show that you roll out weekly over three months

00:16:09   does that.

00:16:10   A movie is one day, is like something you watch one day.

00:16:14   - One day, yeah.

00:16:15   - And so you would need lots of movies,

00:16:18   but you can't keep making movies

00:16:21   that cost two, $300 million.

00:16:24   You can't keep doing that

00:16:28   if you're not making money in the box office

00:16:30   is how I look at this anyway.

00:16:32   - This is the argument

00:16:33   about a lot of streamers making movies, right?

00:16:35   Which is, is it wise in the long run

00:16:39   for streamers to bankroll big budget movies?

00:16:42   'Cause I think it personally,

00:16:45   it might be better if they bankrolled smaller budget movies,

00:16:49   not like super small indies.

00:16:51   But like mid budget movies and had a lot of them.

00:16:55   But they also wanna win Oscars.

00:16:57   - Well, this is what Netflix does.

00:16:59   - Well, Netflix has had a bunch of different strategies

00:17:01   and they've had, they just had recently had a change

00:17:03   in who's in charge of it, right?

00:17:05   And I think Netflix wants to do fewer expensive movies,

00:17:10   Zack Snyder moon movies and things like that, right?

00:17:14   I think they wanna do more.

00:17:16   They wanna kind of spread it out a little bit more,

00:17:17   but what Netflix would tell you is,

00:17:19   if they can do a bunch of hallmark-esque romantic comedy

00:17:24   kind of things and have 10 of those or 15 of those

00:17:27   or 20 of those that cost 10 million or whatever,

00:17:30   it's totally worth it.

00:17:31   And then you have some mid budget sci-fi movies.

00:17:34   And I feel like there is a way to do this

00:17:36   where back in the old days,

00:17:38   they had the concept of the movie of the week,

00:17:40   which was like a TV movie,

00:17:41   TV movie as a concept,

00:17:43   a movie that was never made to be anything but shown

00:17:46   for two hours on a TV network.

00:17:48   And those things had TV budgets.

00:17:51   They were not super ambitious,

00:17:53   but it was a real thing.

00:17:56   And I think that there's room for that.

00:17:57   However, I think that Apple is more concerned

00:17:59   about getting award nominations

00:18:02   and about working with stars and famous directors

00:18:06   and things like that than it is about playing the game

00:18:10   that Netflix is playing.

00:18:11   And I think it's fair to say,

00:18:13   should you really think that way?

00:18:15   I think that's a fair question.

00:18:17   I wouldn't be surprised if they stop doing big movie deals

00:18:22   and start doing maybe some indie movie deals,

00:18:24   but also more just focus on the TV stuff.

00:18:28   I will say one of the places that they're experimenting

00:18:30   that I think is interesting is licensing movies

00:18:32   for a month or two on TV+.

00:18:35   And it appears kind of connecting them

00:18:38   either thematically or demographically

00:18:40   to the movies that they're releasing.

00:18:42   So you end up in this scenario where I would bet you

00:18:45   when Apple's F1 film comes on TV+.

00:18:48   There will be a curated selection of things

00:18:51   that probably scares mail,

00:18:52   might be a little more international.

00:18:54   And if there's anything about racing,

00:18:56   there are a lot of driving movies.

00:19:00   Ford versus Ferrari or Days of Thunder,

00:19:01   that they'll put all of those on there as well.

00:19:03   And the idea there is, you come for the F1 film,

00:19:06   but oh, look, Apple's got a bunch of these movies

00:19:08   that I can stay and watch.

00:19:09   Even if they're not there forever,

00:19:11   nothing on streaming is forever,

00:19:12   but they're there for a month or two,

00:19:14   they can create that kind of experience

00:19:16   that makes you wanna hang on

00:19:17   even though they don't have a huge catalog.

00:19:20   They're just experimenting and they're trying stuff,

00:19:22   but I do think there's an element to it.

00:19:23   And I've seen some reports from people like Matt Bellamy

00:19:26   about this, where there's an element to it

00:19:30   of just Apple likes using its money to have stars around.

00:19:35   - And I think they're doing a great job of that

00:19:38   with the TV shows, right?

00:19:41   Their TV shows are packed full of A-list movie actors.

00:19:45   - Yeah, doing TV.

00:19:47   Gary Oldman doing a TV show, right?

00:19:49   Harrison Ford doing a TV show.

00:19:51   - People in, but I think, so this movie here,

00:19:55   this very particular movie, which doesn't have a name yet,

00:19:57   which is interesting,

00:19:58   it has the potential of making a lot of money in the cinema

00:20:05   provided that they commit, right?

00:20:07   Because what this movie is gonna do

00:20:10   is provide people with a Top Gun Maverick-like experience,

00:20:13   where Top Gun Maverick, I'm so disappointed

00:20:15   I never saw that in cinema, I saw it at home,

00:20:18   because I imagine seeing that movie on an IMAX screen

00:20:21   would be absolutely exhilarating

00:20:24   because they actually put cameras on fighter jets.

00:20:28   And this time they're putting cameras

00:20:30   on essentially the fastest race cars, right?

00:20:34   And so if you get really good footage,

00:20:37   which I'm convinced they are,

00:20:38   this movie is gonna be incredible to watch in a theater,

00:20:42   but they have to actually commit to that.

00:20:45   And I'm not sure that they will,

00:20:46   even though they have, if you know what I mean.

00:20:49   Is this gonna be a full premium format IMAX screen release?

00:20:54   Like, I don't know, but it'd be interesting to see.

00:20:57   - I mean, they're, I think, experimenting with this too,

00:20:59   but it may be, right?

00:21:00   They may have brought Warner Brothers on

00:21:02   as the distribution partner,

00:21:03   thinking this movie costs so much money,

00:21:05   we really need to try to give it a proper theatrical release.

00:21:10   And it does make sense,

00:21:12   I know I talked about this a lot with Julia on downstream,

00:21:15   the idea that releasing a movie in theaters

00:21:19   that you have the streaming rights to is actually helpful,

00:21:22   because most of your potential audience

00:21:24   won't get out to the theaters to see it.

00:21:26   And if they do, you make money.

00:21:29   But if they don't, what you've done is,

00:21:31   the launching of a movie in theaters is marketing.

00:21:33   It creates awareness that that movie exists,

00:21:36   so that when it then, 45 days later

00:21:39   or whatever appears on your platform,

00:21:41   everybody knows about that movie and said,

00:21:42   "Oh yeah, I wanted to see that movie."

00:21:45   So there is a strategy there,

00:21:46   but when it gets to be a very expensive movie,

00:21:49   you're trying to cut your costs,

00:21:52   but I agree with you,

00:21:53   this seems like one of these peculiar,

00:21:55   does Apple wanna be in the business

00:21:57   of making $250 million movies?

00:21:58   Does it really?

00:22:00   Or should it be making $50 million movies?

00:22:03   You could get five, you got a five pack

00:22:05   of $50 million movies for the cost of this one.

00:22:08   But it wouldn't have Brad Pitt in it.

00:22:09   - I want this movie to be successful,

00:22:13   but Apple needs to commit to that strategy,

00:22:16   and it'll be interesting to see if they will.

00:22:18   Speaking of committing and strategies,

00:22:21   Apple have abandoned their Apple Pay Later service.

00:22:25   This is where you could,

00:22:26   as part of an Apple Pay checkout, pay in payments.

00:22:30   You could take a payment, split it into chunks,

00:22:33   and pay it over time.

00:22:34   This was announced at WWDC last year, I think,

00:22:38   but it's available for around a year.

00:22:41   Providing a statement to 9to5Mac,

00:22:43   Apple said, "Starting later this year,

00:22:44   "users across the globe will be able

00:22:46   "to access installment loans offered

00:22:48   "through credit and debit cards,

00:22:49   "as well as lenders, when checking out of Apple Pay.

00:22:52   "With the introduction of this new global

00:22:54   "installment offering, we will no longer

00:22:57   "offer Apple Pay Later in the US."

00:22:59   And I feel like this is them trying to save face

00:23:03   a little bit, because they're offering these features

00:23:05   to third parties, but they are select third parties.

00:23:09   Where if they were, with how they did it,

00:23:11   and how they could have rolled it out themselves,

00:23:13   you could do this no matter who you banked with.

00:23:16   But like, say for example, they mention in the UK,

00:23:18   there are two banks that you can do it with,

00:23:19   and if you're not a customer of those banks,

00:23:21   you can't use this feature.

00:23:23   So, interesting.

00:23:25   - I wrote a piece for Macworld this week,

00:23:28   thinking about all the places where, you know,

00:23:30   Apple has this colossus that's,

00:23:32   that it's a huge company, $3 trillion valuation,

00:23:36   and it acts like it can do anything at once, but it can't.

00:23:41   It can't, and I think it's interesting to see the areas

00:23:43   where it thinks that it can and it can't,

00:23:46   because trying new things is not bad, right?

00:23:49   Trying to enter new areas is not bad.

00:23:51   Apple did it with the iPhone and the iPod, right?

00:23:54   And they were successful with it.

00:23:57   But in some of these areas, Apple sort of said,

00:23:58   "Well, I think there's a little crack here."

00:24:00   Like they did Apple Pay, and I was like,

00:24:02   "The Apple Pay worked."

00:24:03   And they were able to crack the market in a way,

00:24:05   and some of it was timing, but some of it was just

00:24:07   the way that they built it,

00:24:09   and the enthusiasm of their user base.

00:24:12   They cracked it in the US in a way that contactless

00:24:15   had not been done before, and they took advantage

00:24:18   of a moment in time, and they really made a difference.

00:24:22   But since then, they're like, "Ah, yes,

00:24:25   financial is a place where we could go.

00:24:27   Let's do some more financial products."

00:24:29   And if you take a step back, other than Apple Pay,

00:24:32   nothing has worked.

00:24:34   So it's interesting, right?

00:24:37   Like the Apple Card has been out there for years now.

00:24:41   Goldman Sachs is their partner,

00:24:42   'cause they had to have a partner.

00:24:44   Goldman Sachs wants out, they're trying to get out of it.

00:24:46   Apple apparently, it wants to get them out of it,

00:24:49   and it's trying to find a partner,

00:24:50   but no partner has been announced,

00:24:51   because Apple Card is maybe problematic.

00:24:55   Also, I'll point out Apple Card, US only.

00:24:59   Apple Cash, US only.

00:25:02   So even when Apple has tried to be ambitious with financial,

00:25:07   they can't even get it out of their home market.

00:25:10   So it's an interesting, and you could say,

00:25:13   I mean, in my column, I talk about like,

00:25:15   they have a carplay and they're like,

00:25:16   "Aha, well, maybe we'll build a car

00:25:18   and we'll do this next generation carplay."

00:25:21   And the carmakers are like, "No, thank you, no."

00:25:23   Where, oh yeah, maybe automotive is not actually

00:25:27   as wide open to you as you thought it was.

00:25:30   And then, you know, the big one is obviously regulation

00:25:33   and governments and things like that,

00:25:34   where they're like, "Oh, we can totally do this."

00:25:36   And it hasn't gotten there.

00:25:39   Dan Morin recommended in that category

00:25:43   the whole digital driver's license thing,

00:25:45   which is also just sort of like,

00:25:47   they thought they could do an Apple Pay with that

00:25:50   and it kind of hasn't happened in the US.

00:25:53   But the financial one is like a really great example

00:25:56   where like they set up their own bank

00:25:59   to do short-term loans.

00:26:01   It's like, that's weird.

00:26:02   And they had to do it themselves.

00:26:04   And Mark Gurman wrote the stories a couple of years ago

00:26:06   about their big financial vision.

00:26:08   And they were gonna set up a whole division of the company

00:26:12   that does financial services and all that.

00:26:14   And I know that the Apple Pay later

00:26:17   is a very specific product

00:26:19   and it might not necessarily be representative

00:26:20   of everything else.

00:26:21   But if you look at everything else that they've done

00:26:24   in this area, other than Apple Pay itself,

00:26:27   none of them, I would say, have been successful.

00:26:30   Because like, first off, none of them are outside the US

00:26:34   and none of them have really grown or changed over time.

00:26:38   It's all very limited.

00:26:40   So I think maybe this is just one of those areas

00:26:42   where Apple's, what is it?

00:26:45   Apple's reach exceeded its grasp.

00:26:46   Like it's trying, but it can't get there with this stuff.

00:26:49   And maybe Apple, turns out, maybe having lots of money

00:26:54   does not make you a bank.

00:26:55   (laughs)

00:26:56   It's not the same.

00:26:58   They're not the same.

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00:29:23   Room around uptime, Jason Snow.

00:29:26   - Yeehaw!

00:29:28   - So I wanted to give an abridged outline,

00:29:32   or basically talk about an outline that Mark Gurman

00:29:35   has given for his expected timelines

00:29:38   based on information he's received,

00:29:39   and I think also a little bit of gut feeling

00:29:42   about when Apple intelligence features are likely to ship.

00:29:46   So from his power on newsletter,

00:29:49   in the initial release, most likely in the fall,

00:29:52   we'll see notification, prioritizing, and recapping,

00:29:56   summaries and transcriptions,

00:29:59   Genmoji and image playgrounds,

00:30:01   some of the writing tools to rewrite your text,

00:30:04   the new Siri UI, type to Siri,

00:30:06   and better understanding of speech.

00:30:08   These are the things that are expected to be

00:30:11   probably in 18 and 18.1, something like that.

00:30:15   But the expectation is that these features would make it.

00:30:18   Although, they may not make it in the bay as apparently

00:30:21   until at least some of these things,

00:30:22   until very late in the day.

00:30:24   - Sure, uh-huh, that's a sign.

00:30:26   - Some of these things are targeted to be ready in August.

00:30:31   Which is very light.

00:30:33   Then later in 2024 would be the chat GPT integration.

00:30:37   It's expected that this may not be ready for 18.0.

00:30:41   And then in 2025, we would see features like

00:30:44   Siri being able to find content on your device.

00:30:47   This was the, when is my mom's flight demo?

00:30:50   That is this, like finding content on your device.

00:30:53   Semantic indexing, so this is the understanding of you

00:30:56   based on the data you have on your phone.

00:30:58   The intense based control of apps and actions.

00:31:01   So being able to ask your phone to do something

00:31:05   and it would understand what that is

00:31:06   and function it based on an application and its features.

00:31:09   And also on-screen awareness.

00:31:12   And I'll really quote from Mark Gurman

00:31:14   about what kind of defining this part.

00:31:17   He says, for example, if you're texting with a friend

00:31:19   about LeBron James, you'll be able to ask

00:31:22   how many points did he score last night

00:31:24   and you'd get an answer.

00:31:25   So this is the timeline.

00:31:28   But like that 2025 could be who knows when,

00:31:31   but so that's, you know, I'm happy to hear,

00:31:35   'cause I was starting to feel like a lot of this stuff

00:31:38   wouldn't ship at all this year,

00:31:40   but the features that he's put in the initial release,

00:31:43   I think there's enough there,

00:31:45   which would be interesting to play with, right?

00:31:47   And that people will be excited about.

00:31:49   And it will give more time for developers

00:31:52   and for Apple to convince more developers,

00:31:54   which has been an interesting theme

00:31:56   that I've been hearing people talk about over the last week,

00:31:58   especially Ben Thompson,

00:32:00   to actually try and get them to come on board

00:32:03   with Apple intelligence,

00:32:04   which could actually end up being

00:32:05   a bit of an Achilles heel for them.

00:32:07   So interesting timeline.

00:32:09   - Obviously they're just doing this as fast as they can.

00:32:12   And there's gonna be the stuff that they feel like

00:32:16   is in better shape or that is more constrained

00:32:18   that they can do.

00:32:19   And then there's gonna be the stuff that's messier.

00:32:21   I also would not be surprised

00:32:23   if some of this stuff slips, right?

00:32:24   I wouldn't be surprised if they say,

00:32:25   "Yeah, Image Playgrounds turns out,

00:32:28   "and we can't ship it, so it'll be later," or whatever.

00:32:32   But at least there are gonna be things, right?

00:32:35   And I think we just have to accept

00:32:37   that this stuff is gonna roll out

00:32:38   over the course of the entire year,

00:32:41   the entire release cycle, right?

00:32:42   From September through next June, basically,

00:32:46   that they're gonna keep adding things.

00:32:48   And then I imagine next June, they'll make an announcement

00:32:52   and those features will take a year to roll out as well.

00:32:55   And that's just how it's gonna be from now on

00:32:58   is that this stuff is gonna roll out over time

00:33:00   because they don't have...

00:33:02   I think they know that they can't just sit on it for a year

00:33:05   and do nothing, right?

00:33:06   I think that they've gotta be ambitious

00:33:08   and then keep shipping throughout the year.

00:33:10   But at least there will be some stuff there,

00:33:12   even if it's not in the betas,

00:33:13   which is, for those of us who write about this stuff,

00:33:16   the most frustrating thing is not having time to spend

00:33:21   with major features of the operating system.

00:33:23   But I think that's just how it's gonna have to be this year

00:33:27   is that it's all gonna be coming...

00:33:30   It's gonna be a real challenge, right?

00:33:31   Because you could review iOS for the fall,

00:33:35   but you're not really reviewing,

00:33:36   you're reviewing the point O release

00:33:38   and there's gonna be a whole bunch of stuff

00:33:40   that's not in there and the stuff that's in there,

00:33:41   you might've only seen it for a couple of weeks

00:33:44   and that's just how it's gonna be.

00:33:45   So yeah, it's an interesting, interesting times.

00:33:49   - Yeah, I would say like, I think as you're saying too,

00:33:52   like as a content creator talking about Apple and technology,

00:33:56   I love the fact that they will be releasing things slowly

00:33:59   over a one year period,

00:34:00   because we get more excuses to talk about a new thing.

00:34:04   Like that's great for us.

00:34:06   And you know, it is, I think,

00:34:10   this is one of these things where it's a symptom

00:34:12   of the situation that they're in,

00:34:13   but it is also something that people

00:34:16   who have been following Apple for a long time

00:34:19   have kind of been begging them to do anyway,

00:34:22   that like we don't need,

00:34:24   and they've been doing more and more of it over time,

00:34:26   but the WWDC should be a roadmap of the next 12 months

00:34:31   and it's not all gonna be in three months.

00:34:35   You know, it's just funny, I saw today like fifth,

00:34:38   there are currently six new beta's for iOS 17,

00:34:43   like 17.6 or something like that is out today,

00:34:46   which is funny that like, all right,

00:34:49   we're still doing 17 beta's,

00:34:50   but that's kind of what it should be, I guess.

00:34:53   - Still fixing stuff or doing compliance for EU

00:34:56   or who knows what.

00:34:57   Yeah, I agree that a feature that can't ship in September

00:35:02   shouldn't have to wait for the next September.

00:35:05   Like that's sort of what we're saying

00:35:07   is under Apple's old model,

00:35:09   either it shipped in September or it didn't,

00:35:12   or October or whatever in the fall,

00:35:14   or it didn't ship until the next cycle.

00:35:16   And now what they do is say,

00:35:17   here's what we're working on for the next year.

00:35:19   And this stuff will ship over the course of the year.

00:35:22   And it's a better model, like it's a better model.

00:35:24   You should not have a feature that just misses

00:35:27   by the skin of its teeth

00:35:28   'cause they aren't gonna have it ready.

00:35:30   And it's sentenced to banishment for a year, right?

00:35:33   Like that's dumb, that shouldn't be the way you do it.

00:35:36   And it allows Apple to hold features back

00:35:39   that it wants to ship, but aren't quite ready.

00:35:42   It has the freedom to say, it's gonna be out of X.1

00:35:47   and it's gonna slide to X.2.

00:35:49   Like that's good, that's a good thing, I think so.

00:35:51   But with Apple intelligence,

00:35:53   you can also see that they're running

00:35:54   as fast as they can, right?

00:35:56   Again, they're that duck

00:35:57   and it's paddling furiously beneath the surface.

00:35:59   And you can see it, you can see that they're like,

00:36:01   ah, this is just the beginning and we're working on it,

00:36:04   but it's not all gonna be there.

00:36:05   And like, yeah, we get it, we get it, but it's okay.

00:36:08   I'm okay with it.

00:36:09   - But at the same time, we knew this was coming

00:36:11   and we've been working on it for ages.

00:36:13   We just so happened to now be shipping these things

00:36:15   all at once.

00:36:16   - Yeah, in pieces.

00:36:18   - The information is reporting that Apple is shifting focus

00:36:22   away from a Vision Pro 2 towards an entry-level,

00:36:27   quote unquote, vision product.

00:36:29   A cheaper, lighter, pared down version

00:36:31   of the Vision OS headset.

00:36:33   They're aiming for a $1,500 price tag,

00:36:36   although they are apparently struggling to decide

00:36:38   what features would get cut from the Vision Pro

00:36:43   to make a cheaper product.

00:36:45   And they wanna have a product on the market

00:36:47   by the end of 2025.

00:36:50   I'm seeing a lot of people say, ha ha, it failed.

00:36:54   What is your feeling about this news?

00:36:56   - So I cheated a little 'cause I listened to you

00:37:00   on Connected talk about this with Steven.

00:37:02   - It's rare that news gets to be,

00:37:05   I get to talk about connected, like news,

00:37:07   I get to talk about rumor news on Connected first.

00:37:09   That is a rare attack. - On Connected, I know.

00:37:10   It is rare.

00:37:13   My first thought about this as somebody

00:37:15   who has a Vision Pro and thinks it's a very interesting

00:37:17   product is this is absolutely what they should be doing.

00:37:20   When they were talking about, there were reports about like,

00:37:22   oh, Apple's not even trying to make a cheaper version of it.

00:37:25   They're just gonna do another Vision Pro

00:37:27   and it's gonna be another $4,000 headset

00:37:30   that's using the latest and greatest.

00:37:32   I thought that that was delusional

00:37:34   and that their big goal should be,

00:37:37   knowing what they know, having shipped a product,

00:37:41   having learned some lessons, presumably they're gonna learn

00:37:43   some more as they go into international markets,

00:37:45   but they've learned some lessons.

00:37:47   They've had time to think about it.

00:37:48   They've had the time to think about their initial decisions

00:37:51   and whether they were right or wrong.

00:37:53   I think, and there's a narrative about Vision Pro sales

00:37:58   that I think is wrong 'cause somebody pointed out like,

00:38:01   initially the reports were like,

00:38:02   oh, Apple can only make 400,000 of them

00:38:05   and so that limits how many.

00:38:06   And now there are stories that are like,

00:38:07   oh, it's really disappointing.

00:38:08   Apple's only gonna sell about 400,000 of them.

00:38:10   It's like, wait, the numbers are the same.

00:38:12   What happened there?

00:38:13   It is not setting the world on fire,

00:38:14   but it's also a severely constrained product.

00:38:16   But like, I don't know how you look at the Vision Pro

00:38:19   and don't think, oh, this needs to be a lot cheaper.

00:38:22   And how much cheaper is a question?

00:38:26   On "Connected," which is a lovely podcast full of nonsense

00:38:31   and also a tech analysis that I recommend,

00:38:33   the connected program here at Relay FM.

00:38:35   - Thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:38:36   - You said, just a little plug throwing it in there.

00:38:38   You said, to summarize you, you're like,

00:38:42   oh, they really gotta get this down to a Quest price.

00:38:46   500.

00:38:48   And then the rumor's like an expensive iPhone,

00:38:51   like 1500-ish for it.

00:38:53   On an infinite timescale,

00:38:57   and a reference to another podcast, I agree with you.

00:39:00   I think Apple needs to have a product

00:39:02   that is affordable for people who are like,

00:39:04   yeah, why not?

00:39:05   I'll use it for movies and maybe some games and whatever.

00:39:08   I do agree they need to go there.

00:39:11   They probably can't get there with the next one.

00:39:13   And so I think they just need to strive

00:39:15   to push the price down.

00:39:17   And that's where we absolutely agree is,

00:39:20   wherever they can get,

00:39:22   somebody needs to be looking at Vision Hardware and saying,

00:39:25   what is everything we can do to make this product cheaper?

00:39:29   I would even say lighter, yeah,

00:39:31   I mean, lighter would be nice, make it cheaper.

00:39:34   I think the number one thing with the Vision Pro

00:39:36   is not its weight, it's not its size.

00:39:37   Those would be nice too, sure.

00:39:40   But make it cheaper because I agree with you

00:39:45   that at 1500, you're not gonna sell

00:39:48   a zillion of these things.

00:39:50   But at 1500, I do think a certain segment of the market

00:39:54   that is never ever gonna buy it at 3500.

00:39:58   For 1500, could they find if there is more content,

00:40:02   if there are more apps,

00:40:03   if there are better movie and immersive experiences with it,

00:40:06   maybe better games experiences with it.

00:40:09   At 1500, you'll get more of them

00:40:11   and you'll get a little more momentum.

00:40:13   But really the goal should be,

00:40:15   you can be thinking about the high end

00:40:16   and what you wanna do in the long run,

00:40:18   but just get the price down as far as you can

00:40:21   because every dollar it drops, you will pick up some sales,

00:40:25   but you can't stop at 1500.

00:40:28   You do need to keep driving it down.

00:40:30   It just may be the product is so early

00:40:32   that it's gonna take them five years to get down to $500.

00:40:37   And if so, they should do it as fast as possible.

00:40:40   But I could see this, look, 1500 is not a great price,

00:40:45   but it's less than half of the current Vision Pro.

00:40:49   If they can make their next version cost

00:40:51   less than half of the one that they've got out there now,

00:40:55   my point is it's good.

00:40:56   This is exactly what they should be doing

00:40:58   is reducing the price.

00:40:59   That's the most, the number one priority

00:41:01   is to reduce the price of this thing.

00:41:03   - Yeah, the point that I was making on Connect is,

00:41:05   and I stand by it, but I also agree with you,

00:41:08   is I don't think that a $1500 price tag

00:41:12   is still too high for this product

00:41:17   to make a meaningful impact,

00:41:18   which I think is what Apple realistically need.

00:41:20   They need this product to make a meaningful impact

00:41:24   if they want to continue to invest in it.

00:41:27   And I think that 1500 is still too high.

00:41:29   1500 is a lot better and they will pick up more people,

00:41:33   but I don't think that this is going to be a product

00:41:37   that is meaningful until it is impulse pricing.

00:41:41   And 1500 is still too much.

00:41:44   The price of an iPhone being a 1500 or what have,

00:41:47   doesn't matter, 'cause an iPhone is an essential

00:41:50   piece of modern life. - Yes, it's in your pocket

00:41:52   all the time.

00:41:53   - It is essential. - This is a novelty.

00:41:54   I agree, I just think, if I disagree,

00:41:58   it's that, first off, I don't think it's realistic

00:42:00   that they're gonna get it to 500.

00:42:02   And second-- - No, it's not.

00:42:03   It's completely unrealistic, but--

00:42:05   - I think it's the right direction to go.

00:42:07   And I do think that they can pick up users

00:42:09   by going from 3500 to 1500.

00:42:11   But I agree with you in the sense that

00:42:13   the goal can't be to make a $1000 headset.

00:42:16   Like the goal can't-- - That can't be the strategy.

00:42:17   - It can't be the goal.

00:42:18   It has to be a $500, 700, it's Apple, right?

00:42:21   So maybe it's a $700, $600.

00:42:23   But it needs to be something like that.

00:42:26   Even at 999, at least you could make the argument,

00:42:29   it would be pricey, but they just need to do everything,

00:42:34   every single aspect of that product

00:42:37   needs to be put under the microscope and said,

00:42:39   do we need this?

00:42:40   Could it be cheaper?

00:42:41   How, does it betray the product?

00:42:43   Or is it just like, let's just get rid of it?

00:42:45   And I'm sure we all have lists of things that are obvious.

00:42:49   I'm sure that the people who build this thing

00:42:50   also could look at it and say,

00:42:52   like something you guys mentioned

00:42:53   that I thought was really interesting is,

00:42:55   if you can improve your machine learning models,

00:42:57   you can drop sensors, right?

00:42:59   Like that's one thing you could potentially do

00:43:01   is if you can have a new sensor

00:43:03   that maybe covers more ground,

00:43:05   but it's a little bit lower resolution,

00:43:08   but the machine learning model is more accurate,

00:43:11   you can save money by shaving sensors off of it.

00:43:14   And there are probably other parts that are like that too.

00:43:16   They don't need to ship it

00:43:17   with the super 3D knitted headband, right?

00:43:20   Like there are lots of things you could take out of it

00:43:22   to get it down.

00:43:24   And they need to, they absolutely,

00:43:27   every, leave no stone unturned.

00:43:30   But I'm gonna mention something else here,

00:43:32   'cause I was thinking about your conversation with Steven

00:43:35   and thinking about Vision Pro Direction.

00:43:38   You know, like they ship, we've talked about it.

00:43:39   They ship Job Simulator for it, right?

00:43:43   And Vacation Simulator.

00:43:44   And there's some other games that are on it now.

00:43:47   And it's interesting 'cause those are VR games

00:43:50   that are just have been out there for ages

00:43:52   and they ported them to the platform, right?

00:43:54   Also throw out a, before I get to my point,

00:43:56   I'm gonna throw out a shout out for

00:43:58   When Cards Fall by the Gameband and Snowman,

00:44:01   which has been an iPhone and iPad game for a while now,

00:44:05   but there's a Vision Pro version of it.

00:44:06   It's great, it's gorgeous.

00:44:07   It's like Monument Valley-esque puzzler.

00:44:09   And Vision Pro version is spatial.

00:44:13   So, I mean, it's 3D basically is what it is,

00:44:15   but it's gorgeous.

00:44:16   It's really good.

00:44:17   I really love it.

00:44:19   This brings me to my point,

00:44:20   which is while Apple is rethinking things,

00:44:24   its assumptions about the Vision Pro hardware

00:44:26   like do we need to spend that money

00:44:29   on the lenticular external display that shows eyes

00:44:32   and every other thing, I mean, that's the easy shot,

00:44:35   but like every other thing about the product

00:44:37   that there was an assumption like,

00:44:37   well, we have to have this

00:44:38   and they end up with a $3,500 headset.

00:44:41   They also need to rethink some of their assumptions

00:44:44   that are, I think mistaken.

00:44:49   I was gonna insult them more and I'm not going to,

00:44:53   that were mistaken and that were probably based

00:44:56   on some dogma or some, or being too prideful

00:44:59   about the work, the amazing work they've done

00:45:03   on their hand tracking.

00:45:05   This is a long way of me saying they absolutely 100%

00:45:09   need to make hand controllers for the Vision Pro.

00:45:14   Oh, okay.

00:45:15   Or make a hand controller API and let third parties do it.

00:45:18   Because they could pick up one of the problems,

00:45:21   especially if you're going to 1500,

00:45:23   one of the problems with the Vision Pro is

00:45:26   it doesn't play games.

00:45:27   It plays some games, but games you think of as VR games,

00:45:31   the ones they've got are not very good for the most part

00:45:34   because they have to rely on the hand tracking

00:45:36   and the precision you can have with hand controllers

00:45:38   is so much better than what you can do with hand tracking.

00:45:42   Doing Beat Saber or the Darth Vader game, right?

00:45:45   Or like there are so many things you can do

00:45:48   with precision on an Oculus Quest with their hand controllers

00:45:52   and they don't have to be mandatory.

00:45:54   They could be, again, they could be third party

00:45:56   even with an API.

00:45:58   But if you had the ability to, as Apple, unlock ports

00:46:02   of all those VR games that assume that you've got

00:46:06   precision hand controllers and that don't work

00:46:09   when you try to build them with just hand tracking,

00:46:11   it makes the product better.

00:46:14   It makes the product more appealing to have that.

00:46:16   If I could do, okay, maybe I can't do Beat Saber,

00:46:19   but if I could do something like Beat Saber

00:46:21   with the precision of Beat Saber,

00:46:23   which Vision Pro does not have, if I could do something,

00:46:26   if it's not getting Vader Immortal or whatever it is

00:46:29   that I played on Quest, something like it

00:46:33   where you're using the precision to do a lightsaber,

00:46:35   there's a lot of lightsaber, it's a good fit, or whatever.

00:46:39   All of these other VR games that have been done

00:46:41   for other platforms that could potentially be ported

00:46:43   to Vision Pro and they just can't be because Apple said,

00:46:49   no, no, it's like if you see a stylus, they blew it.

00:46:52   Remember that?

00:46:53   This is that, which is, I get them saying

00:46:56   if you see hand controllers, they blew it

00:46:58   because there was a period with the Quest II

00:47:01   when I got it where there was no hand tracking.

00:47:04   And when they did hand tracking, it was bad.

00:47:06   The hand tracking in Quest III is okay.

00:47:08   It's actually okay.

00:47:09   But on the Quest II, it was really bad.

00:47:12   It was an afterthought.

00:47:13   Pass-through was an afterthought.

00:47:15   And Meta has gotten better with that over time.

00:47:19   But like, so I get Apple saying, no,

00:47:22   we want the Vision Pro to be a device

00:47:23   where you don't have to put on your little controllers.

00:47:26   You can literally just slip it on and sit there

00:47:29   and interact with the world.

00:47:30   Great.

00:47:30   Philosophically, 100% agree with that.

00:47:32   But you know what?

00:47:33   Apple still shipped an Apple Pencil

00:47:35   because there are things that are better

00:47:38   with a stylus, with a pencil, things that are better.

00:47:42   And VR is better with hand controllers

00:47:45   'cause you can play more games with more precision

00:47:47   that your beautiful sensors that are very expensive

00:47:50   and your amazing ML models just can't do the complexity

00:47:55   of pressing a button on a hand controller

00:47:59   instead of having to do a very specific,

00:48:01   like I'm trying to put my fingers together,

00:48:02   but I'm playing a game, I'm moving my hand around

00:48:04   and it can't see that I'm putting my fingers together

00:48:06   or it misreads moving my hand

00:48:08   as putting my fingers together

00:48:09   and the input's all messed up.

00:48:11   Like it's just, there are applications on the Vision Pro

00:48:16   that can't be done because Apple said

00:48:20   we're not doing hand controllers.

00:48:21   So if I was working on this product,

00:48:25   that would be one of the things on my list is,

00:48:27   in addition to working to make a cheaper model,

00:48:30   we've got to add a proper hand controller API

00:48:33   to the operating system.

00:48:34   And either we make a first party set of hand controllers

00:48:37   and they can reinvent the hand controller if they want,

00:48:39   whatever, or if you just find partners or a partner,

00:48:45   maybe you'd even design it for them,

00:48:46   but whatever it is, just say, we need to have it.

00:48:49   'Cause I just, I feel obviously,

00:48:50   'cause I've just ranted about it for five minutes,

00:48:52   I feel very strongly,

00:48:53   like they want this thing to be successful.

00:48:55   There's a whole class of fun applications for it

00:48:59   that would make you more inclined to use it or buy it

00:49:03   that they refuse to have on their platform

00:49:05   because they don't deign to have these awful hand controllers

00:49:10   that you shouldn't need to have

00:49:11   to do proper augmented reality or VR.

00:49:14   And they need to get over it.

00:49:15   This product, for this product to be good,

00:49:17   they gotta get over it.

00:49:19   They just, they gotta get over it.

00:49:21   I'll say it, the pride or the arrogance of like,

00:49:23   well, we're just gonna roll in

00:49:24   and we're gonna do our awesome thing

00:49:25   and we don't need this other stupid thing

00:49:27   that Meta is doing.

00:49:28   It's like, they're wrong.

00:49:29   They're wrong.

00:49:30   They can't do it.

00:49:31   You gotta have a hand controller

00:49:33   if you wanna play those games

00:49:33   and you gotta have a catalog of apps for Pete's sake.

00:49:37   I don't know.

00:49:38   Do you agree that it's like a glaring,

00:49:41   like why would you hurt your product by not having it?

00:49:44   - Oh, I mean, I said it from the beginning, right?

00:49:47   The gaming story on Vision Pro will always be hampered

00:49:52   by the fact that most successful games

00:49:56   rely on controllers so can't be ported.

00:49:59   And there are some that work,

00:50:01   like your job simulator or whatever,

00:50:02   you're just emulating your hands, right?

00:50:05   And so that's fine.

00:50:06   - Right.

00:50:07   And they'll say, oh, we could do a PlayStation controller

00:50:09   or something that's like, that ain't it, guys.

00:50:11   PlayStation controller in VR, that ain't it.

00:50:13   That's not--

00:50:13   - No, that's not it.

00:50:14   I mean, unless you somehow make a deal with PlayStation

00:50:17   to use their PSVR controllers, right?

00:50:19   Like that would work.

00:50:21   That would do the job.

00:50:21   But like there are, love more hate.

00:50:24   There are lots and lots of shooting games in VR.

00:50:27   And I've played some,

00:50:28   like one called Superhot is fantastic.

00:50:30   There's another one that I can't remember the name of,

00:50:32   but like they're exhilarating

00:50:34   and really fun and interesting.

00:50:36   And some of them, they deal with like the real life element

00:50:39   by not making people look like people, right?

00:50:42   Like in, you know, is what it is,

00:50:44   but it is a very successful

00:50:46   and there's a lot of zombie games and stuff like that.

00:50:48   There's a very, very well reviewed game

00:50:51   called Asgard's Wrath 2.

00:50:53   I mean, the problem is a lot of these good games now

00:50:55   are being bought up by Meta.

00:50:57   So that poses its own problem,

00:50:59   but it would be easier for more gaming experiences

00:51:04   if there was a more gaming precise input method,

00:51:09   which there isn't.

00:51:10   - Yeah, this is, it's just,

00:51:13   I think about the limited number,

00:51:16   I mean, 'cause the joke that I made

00:51:17   and that everybody else probably made at WWDC

00:51:21   when they put up that image

00:51:23   of all of the icons of Vision OS apps,

00:51:26   I believe I turned to Casey and said,

00:51:29   "That's all of them."

00:51:31   Right? I mean, this is the problem

00:51:33   is there aren't that many Vision Pro apps.

00:51:35   And there are some,

00:51:36   and there aren't like reason to buy a Vision Pro apps.

00:51:40   And I'm not saying playing a game

00:51:42   you could also play on a Quest for $500

00:51:44   is a reason to buy a Vision Pro.

00:51:48   But if I'm looking at that $1,500 product

00:51:50   or that, or a thousand dollar product from Apple,

00:51:52   the low cost one, low cost in quotes, right?

00:51:55   $1,500.

00:51:56   And I think, well, all right,

00:51:58   they're doing some immersive sports

00:51:59   and there are those immersive movies

00:52:00   and there's a bunch of 3D movies.

00:52:01   I'm like, and there's apps.

00:52:02   It's like, it's kind of interesting, but I don't know.

00:52:05   Well, if you've got a game catalog on top of it,

00:52:09   it just makes it more appealing.

00:52:10   It makes it more appealing.

00:52:11   And I would say for existing Vision Pro users,

00:52:14   it would make it more appealing if you used it more.

00:52:17   If I used it more, I would like it more.

00:52:21   And so anyway, yeah, they need to do it.

00:52:23   They need to get over whatever their opinion is.

00:52:27   I mean, and this is just, I don't know for sure.

00:52:30   But my guess is there is a dogma inside Apple,

00:52:34   which is if it can't be done with hand controls

00:52:36   and our amazing sensors and ML models for hand tracking,

00:52:41   it shouldn't be done on Vision Pro.

00:52:43   And it's just wrong, they're wrong.

00:52:45   It shouldn't be mandatory.

00:52:46   And it's not gonna be mandatory

00:52:49   'cause the Vision Pro does so much so well.

00:52:51   But like, it's not like those games could be ported

00:52:55   to the Vision Pro and work with hand tracking.

00:52:57   It's that there are classes of games

00:52:59   that simply can't be done with hand tracking.

00:53:01   You need a controller and they just need to get over it.

00:53:03   So I don't know.

00:53:05   It's, that's my, I just,

00:53:07   that actually was the thing that I was most shocked by

00:53:09   about the Vision OS 2 announcement in some ways

00:53:12   was that there was not even a nod toward like a third party

00:53:14   or whatever, like there's just zero.

00:53:16   And I don't know, I hope they're not delusional about it.

00:53:21   I hope they know this inside and they're just not,

00:53:23   'cause that's the thing with Apple is you can't tell.

00:53:25   Do they know, but they're working on it and it's not ready.

00:53:28   So they're not gonna do it

00:53:29   and they're not gonna say anything

00:53:30   and they're gonna do their confident marketing

00:53:32   of like, no, no, we're happy with the way it is,

00:53:34   even though they know in the background

00:53:35   that it's absolutely not okay and they're trying to fix it.

00:53:39   Or are they actually delusional and think it's okay?

00:53:42   I don't know.

00:53:43   I don't know.

00:53:44   I sure hope it's not actual delusion

00:53:46   and that they're working on it.

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00:55:01   and relay FM.

00:55:02   It's time to lawyer up, Jason Snow.

00:55:05   - Hear ye, hear ye.

00:55:08   - Oh, I like the dun dun.

00:55:11   Dun dun dun dun dun dun.

00:55:12   You know, that was good, I liked that.

00:55:14   - Okay, all right.

00:55:15   We're still working it out.

00:55:16   - We're recording this show a few days early.

00:55:19   It's actually Friday, the 21st, when we're recording this.

00:55:22   While we were recording today,

00:55:24   the Discord alerted me to some news.

00:55:27   Gonna read from Mark Gurman here.

00:55:29   Now this is a bit of a longer quote than usual

00:55:31   because I haven't had a lot of time

00:55:33   to digest this information.

00:55:34   Apple has announced that it is withholding

00:55:37   the release of Apple intelligence, iPhone mirroring,

00:55:40   and SharePlay screen sharing from users in the EU this year

00:55:44   because the Digital Markets Act allegedly forces it

00:55:47   to downgrade the security of its products and services,

00:55:50   citing concerns posed by the block's regulatory attempts

00:55:54   to rein in big tech.

00:55:55   Apple said in a statement,

00:55:57   "We are concerned that the interoperability requirements

00:56:00   "of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity

00:56:03   "of our products in ways that risk user privacy

00:56:06   "and data security."

00:56:08   Now, on first glance of this, one, fascinating,

00:56:14   but two, I don't feel like I understand

00:56:18   what Apple is saying.

00:56:19   Like maybe there's a part here about what the DMA wants.

00:56:26   That means that this, like,

00:56:28   honestly this doesn't even really feel like anything to me

00:56:31   other than Apple is deciding to fire shots back at the EU.

00:56:36   I will just bring in a point here

00:56:39   that prior to this announcement,

00:56:41   EU Competition Commissioner Margaret Vestager told CNBC,

00:56:44   "We have a number of Apple issues.

00:56:46   "I find them very serious.

00:56:47   "I was very surprised we would have such suspicions

00:56:50   "of Apple being non-compliant."

00:56:52   - It's a very I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed

00:56:55   in the kind of statement which I really love.

00:56:57   - Which is a very funny way to do it.

00:56:59   - I have a theory probably between when we record this

00:57:02   and post it, there'll be more details,

00:57:03   but I have a theory here, which is if you're Apple

00:57:06   and you're tired of getting fined and yelled at

00:57:11   about misinterpreting or lightly interpreting,

00:57:14   intentionally, the DMA,

00:57:16   and they won't pre-clear you, right?

00:57:20   They won't pre-clear you theoretically.

00:57:22   Although, but sometimes what happens is Apple says,

00:57:25   "We can't do this because of the DMA."

00:57:27   And the EC says, "Oh no, no, you can do that.

00:57:30   "That's okay."

00:57:32   I wonder if that's what they're doing here.

00:57:33   I wonder if they're just saying,

00:57:34   "Look, this is our way as Apple of announcing

00:57:38   "that we don't think we're allowed

00:57:40   "to do these things in the EU.

00:57:41   "So we're gonna withhold these great features

00:57:44   "from our European customers because,

00:57:46   "but it's not our fault, it's the DMA."

00:57:49   It does give the European Commission the opportunity to say,

00:57:53   "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you can do that.

00:57:56   "We didn't mean it that way."

00:57:58   I don't know if that's the game being played here,

00:58:00   but I wonder if in part it's to get European customers

00:58:05   to be asking the Commission like, "Why?

00:58:08   "It doesn't make sense.

00:58:09   "Why can't I use iPhone mirroring?"

00:58:11   And for them to say, "No, no, no, we didn't mean that.

00:58:13   "No, no, no, it's fine, Apple.

00:58:14   "You can ship that feature."

00:58:15   Right? - What this reminds me of

00:58:17   is when months ago we were talking about the,

00:58:21   I don't even remember the name of it now,

00:58:22   but the bill that was going through the Parliament,

00:58:25   going through Parliament in the UK.

00:58:27   - Oh, right, about the-- - That would require--

00:58:29   - And then encryption. - Yeah.

00:58:30   And there's more of that kind of stuff

00:58:31   happening in Europe now anyway.

00:58:33   And that Apple kind of started making statements

00:58:36   of like, "Oh, man, it'd be shame

00:58:38   "if something happened to your iMessage."

00:58:39   - If iMessage just got turned off in the UK, yeah,

00:58:43   it'd be a shame. - And other features, right,

00:58:44   that they may have to leave the UK market.

00:58:47   There has been a lot of talk since the DMA was introduced

00:58:51   about if Apple should just leave Europe.

00:58:54   I see this as a talking point.

00:58:55   John Gober brings it up quite a bit.

00:58:57   And I don't really think it's a great argument

00:59:00   that they should just leave Europe

00:59:02   because it just doesn't make sense to me.

00:59:05   This is the way you do it, though.

00:59:07   You say, "We're not, oh, we can't give you

00:59:10   "the nice fancy features

00:59:12   "because we're just too scared of the DMA."

00:59:15   Which is also hilarious that Apple,

00:59:18   who is by all accounts seeming to not care about the DMA,

00:59:23   right, in a lot of instances,

00:59:27   like you linked to this in six colors,

00:59:29   that they're refusing to notarize emulator apps

00:59:32   that would be distributed in alternative app marketplaces,

00:59:35   which by basically all reading of the DMA

00:59:38   is something they are not allowed to do,

00:59:40   but they're doing it anyway.

00:59:41   - But they're doing it anyway.

00:59:42   - And like what Margaret Vestager is saying,

00:59:44   that things like, seemingly,

00:59:47   things like the CTF and stuff like that

00:59:49   are also against the DMA.

00:59:50   But in this instance, Apple's like,

00:59:52   "Oh, we wouldn't dare break the DMA."

00:59:56   - It's existing features versus new features.

00:59:59   And you can see they've got this pincer approach now,

01:00:01   which is drag your feet on changing your existing features.

01:00:05   And then now we get the other part of it,

01:00:07   which is withhold new features for fear.

01:00:12   And it's, I mean, it is a,

01:00:15   this may have truth in it,

01:00:17   but it's also a political calculation.

01:00:20   They are saying, look at everything you're not gonna get

01:00:25   because of the DMA.

01:00:26   And it's going to,

01:00:27   they're trying to motivate people in Europe to say,

01:00:30   "I don't like this DMA.

01:00:31   I want that feature.

01:00:33   Why can't I get it?"

01:00:34   And that's good because they're the ones

01:00:36   who can go to their elected officials and say,

01:00:40   "Stop this, this is bad."

01:00:42   It puts potentially negative press on the commission

01:00:46   and potentially makes the commission more likely

01:00:48   to say to Apple, "Okay, you can, it's fine.

01:00:52   You can do that and be lighter on them."

01:00:55   So it's a game of,

01:00:58   it's like, I was gonna say it's a game of cat and mouse.

01:01:00   It's like a game of chicken.

01:01:01   Like literally they're just like,

01:01:03   barreling down the road saying,

01:01:04   "Nope, you don't get those features.

01:01:06   No Apple intelligence in Europe.

01:01:08   Sorry, Europe, womp womp, sad trombone."

01:01:11   - And there's another statement given to the Financial Times

01:01:13   from another Apple spokesperson who says,

01:01:15   "Due to the regulatory uncertainties brought about

01:01:18   by the Digital Markets Act,

01:01:20   we do not believe that we'll be able to roll out

01:01:22   the three of these new features,

01:01:25   iPhone mirroring, share play, screen sharing

01:01:27   and Apple intelligence to our EU users this year."

01:01:30   - Yeah, right?

01:01:33   - Very strange. - Right?

01:01:34   And maybe the way they phrase that is,

01:01:36   we're concerned that we're gonna get fined

01:01:38   and we're gonna just ship it and see what they say.

01:01:41   It feels very much like a ball is in your court statement.

01:01:44   Which is one, is this okay?

01:01:48   Let us know, but we're worried

01:01:49   that you're gonna knock us for this.

01:01:51   Or two, and this might also be what they're trying to say is,

01:01:54   we can ship this in the rest of the world now

01:01:58   because it's built the way Apple usually builds features.

01:02:02   But if the EU is gonna require

01:02:04   that anytime we do a feature like this,

01:02:06   we have to publish an open API

01:02:09   and we have to have it be accessible

01:02:12   from third parties and all of that.

01:02:14   If that's so, those features will need more work

01:02:19   and we can't commit to shipping those in this cycle.

01:02:22   So that's one way, if you're like,

01:02:25   "Oh, well you can ship a new feature, but you need,"

01:02:27   let's say the iPhone mirroring.

01:02:30   What if they have read,

01:02:31   whether it's aggressively read or not,

01:02:34   a DMA aspect that says,

01:02:40   "If you offer this feature,

01:02:42   "you need to also offer it for other devices

01:02:43   "like Android phones."

01:02:45   And Apple's options are,

01:02:50   what Apple said all along is,

01:02:52   "You roll out a feature and then you expand it."

01:02:54   But they're rolling it out.

01:02:55   They are simultaneously rolling it out

01:02:58   to make iPhones better with Macs.

01:03:00   And because it's a good feature for Mac users.

01:03:03   And both of those things are true.

01:03:05   It makes having an Android phone worse

01:03:07   and makes having an iPhone better.

01:03:09   And so you could argue if you're in Europe,

01:03:13   you could say, "No, no, no, no, no, you can't do that."

01:03:17   Although the Mac's not a gatekeeper, it's very weird, right?

01:03:20   But it's like, "No, no, no, no,

01:03:20   "you also need to make that available," or whatever.

01:03:23   But I'm just saying, whether it's that example or not,

01:03:26   this is one way that Apple can argue

01:03:30   that their shipping features the way they ship features.

01:03:35   And if Europe requires them to ship features

01:03:37   with a bunch of extra stuff on top of it,

01:03:39   they're just not gonna ship those features in Europe,

01:03:41   at least not at first.

01:03:42   Interesting, I mean, it's politics, it's strategy.

01:03:46   - Yeah, my read on this,

01:03:48   because this press release could have come out at any time,

01:03:52   right, whether they just realized this,

01:03:55   like they didn't at any point work this out.

01:03:58   I believe Apple knows, because I think

01:04:03   there is communication that occurs.

01:04:06   They are about to get hit by the EU, again.

01:04:09   They're gonna either get fined or they're gonna,

01:04:11   some, it's been bubbling for the last couple of weeks.

01:04:16   This is them preempting that by saying,

01:04:21   if you're gonna make us do this,

01:04:23   like really make us do this the way you want,

01:04:26   enforce the way you want,

01:04:28   this is what we'll do to your customers.

01:04:30   Like, it's almost like, oh, you want some protection

01:04:35   around it, like it's, but this is what happens

01:04:38   in these kinds of scenarios, right?

01:04:40   This is posturing from all sides, right?

01:04:42   Margaret Vestager is not just like falling into CNBC

01:04:45   and giving a quote, right?

01:04:47   She is doing this similarly,

01:04:49   she's trying to stoke it up, right?

01:04:51   Like before anything is, like, oh, I'm so shocked

01:04:56   and surprised at them, and then Apple's like,

01:04:58   oh man, if only we could give these amazing features

01:05:01   to your customers.

01:05:03   - It's a new weapon for Apple, right?

01:05:04   'Cause it's been about existing features needing

01:05:06   to be retrofit to meet the rules.

01:05:09   And so Apple's like been dragging their feet and all that.

01:05:11   This is a whole new front in Apple's battle with Europe,

01:05:14   which is withholding features and making note of it.

01:05:19   Like, and you would think, oh yeah,

01:05:22   but they're hurting themselves in the eyes

01:05:23   of people in Europe.

01:05:24   It's like, well, they are,

01:05:26   but what they're really doing is saying,

01:05:28   we can't give you these features because of your bureaucrats.

01:05:32   So they're trying to put pressure on bureaucrats

01:05:36   because in the end, the bureaucrats don't speak for Apple.

01:05:41   We learned that.

01:05:42   They do theoretically speak for the residents

01:05:47   of those countries.

01:05:48   And it puts a little bit of pressure on them to say,

01:05:52   oh, Apple's products are worse in Europe because of you,

01:05:55   not because of them.

01:05:56   Everybody else gets these features, but you don't.

01:05:58   And it's a nice flip side to the positive PR,

01:06:00   presumably of, hey, only in Europe

01:06:03   can you have third-party app stores and all of that.

01:06:05   It's like, okay.

01:06:06   You're like, hey, they're working for me.

01:06:07   We got features nobody else in the world has.

01:06:09   And now it's gonna be only in Europe

01:06:11   can you not have Apple intelligence.

01:06:13   Like, oh, oh, this isn't good for me.

01:06:16   And that's a message that Apple wants to send.

01:06:18   Yeah.

01:06:19   - I love that it's heating up again.

01:06:21   I do, I love it.

01:06:22   I'm sorry, I love it.

01:06:23   I just, I find it so fascinating to watch this play out.

01:06:27   And I expect that for next week's episode,

01:06:32   you're gonna have even more.

01:06:34   - Yeah, yeah.

01:06:35   There's gonna be a lot here.

01:06:36   That emulator thing too, just, I miss it when it happened.

01:06:39   It happened like right before WWDC,

01:06:41   but Apple's doing that thing where they're like,

01:06:43   oh well, but there's a security rule.

01:06:45   And they're like, there are a couple rules

01:06:47   that are having when you're in the app store.

01:06:50   But one of those rules also happens

01:06:52   when you're not in the app store.

01:06:53   And it's the rule against a specific,

01:06:56   it seems like it's the rule against like having binaries

01:06:59   that come in from outside and are executed,

01:07:02   which is weird because I think Delta does that

01:07:04   and Delta is allowed everywhere.

01:07:06   Also troubling is that it took them months

01:07:08   to reject that app, which suggests that first off,

01:07:11   this seems to be measured, like Apple had debates about it

01:07:15   and decided to go ahead and reject these things,

01:07:17   even though it seems inconsistent.

01:07:19   And Riley Testa has also said that,

01:07:25   who does Alt Store, that Apple has dragged their feet on

01:07:27   notarizing all sorts of apps for Alt Store as well.

01:07:31   And Apple could argue very specific points here.

01:07:34   And it may be that they have good reasons

01:07:37   for rejecting these that aren't inconsistent

01:07:40   with other approvals.

01:07:42   But from Margaret Vestager's perspective,

01:07:46   this, and from my perspective, honestly,

01:07:50   I'm open to hearing Apple's argument here,

01:07:51   but I feel like Apple broke the seal with this,

01:07:55   where notarization was supposed to,

01:07:58   and has on the Mac meant this all along.

01:08:00   When they did notarization on the Mac,

01:08:02   which you can turn off, but is on by default,

01:08:04   that it wants to see a notarized Mac app to launch it.

01:08:07   Everybody was like, "Oh, geez, they're gonna start approving

01:08:10   or disapproving Mac apps."

01:08:12   And Apple was like, "No, no, no, no, no,

01:08:13   we're not gonna do that."

01:08:14   With the notarization for the app marketplaces,

01:08:17   Apple said, "Well, we're gonna put more into it

01:08:19   than we do on the Mac.

01:08:20   There's gonna be more, you know,

01:08:21   standards are higher here 'cause this platform is secure

01:08:24   and we need to keep it secure."

01:08:26   But this is the moment where you look at it and you say,

01:08:28   "Oh, they have decided to do what they do with the App Store,

01:08:33   which is set some rules that are arbitrary,

01:08:36   enforce them arbitrarily,

01:08:38   and use the notarization process

01:08:41   as a de facto approval process."

01:08:45   And I don't know all of their arguments

01:08:48   that they will have to make about this,

01:08:50   but if I'm Margaret Vessiger,

01:08:52   I look at this and I think,

01:08:55   this is not what you're allowed to do.

01:08:58   Like, you are not allowed,

01:08:59   the point of having external marketplaces

01:09:02   is that they bypass your rules,

01:09:04   except for very specific cutouts for security.

01:09:08   And I would say,

01:09:10   I would approach Apple's arguments that these emulators

01:09:14   are rejected for security reasons

01:09:17   with a great deal of skepticism.

01:09:19   - This is, I did not expect this turn.

01:09:24   Maybe I should have. - No.

01:09:26   - Maybe I should have, but I did not expect it.

01:09:28   And as I said earlier,

01:09:31   like this is clearly a new development for them

01:09:33   because they had a lot of opportunities

01:09:36   over the last couple of weeks

01:09:37   to talk about this in their rollout.

01:09:38   But now all of a sudden, here we are.

01:09:40   - Yeah, this is, it's,

01:09:43   and the danger here, here's the other thing,

01:09:46   'cause they, I'd like to dash this off as being,

01:09:49   oh yeah, well, somebody didn't get the memo,

01:09:51   but like they took months.

01:09:52   So clearly they had a whole discussion internally

01:09:55   about whether they should notarize this or not,

01:09:56   which I would argue is also not in the spirit of the DMA.

01:10:01   And then they decided they would use the hammer.

01:10:03   They would say, no, no, we're not approving this,

01:10:05   but for good reasons,

01:10:07   which is very much an apt gratitude

01:10:09   that they're now going to apply to this.

01:10:11   So it's a specific act that they're performing here.

01:10:17   And as with so much that they've done,

01:10:20   I look at it and think, you, by doing this,

01:10:25   you risk making this much worse for yourself,

01:10:29   not just in terms of fines,

01:10:31   but in terms of you're calling the EC on how you,

01:10:36   how they interpret what you're allowed to do

01:10:39   with notarization.

01:10:40   And the result might be something you don't like, Apple.

01:10:44   The result might be, you decided to draw a line

01:10:46   right here, which is emulators of old PCs.

01:10:49   Like who cares?

01:10:52   Who really cares?

01:10:54   - What is the difference between old PCs and Game Boys?

01:10:57   Like what's the actual difference?

01:11:00   - So if like, was this worth it?

01:11:04   Because if the EC doesn't think you have a leg to stand on

01:11:09   with your security complaints about this,

01:11:14   they may make it clear about what they mean

01:11:17   by allowing things in for security via notarization,

01:11:21   and it may handcuff you so that something else comes along

01:11:24   that you actually are concerned about,

01:11:27   and you may not be able to reject it

01:11:30   because the rules have narrowed.

01:11:32   Your behavior may have made it worse for you in the future.

01:11:36   And this is something that a lot of Apple's behavior

01:11:39   makes me wonder if it is aware of that concept, right?

01:11:44   The idea that you're making it worse for yourself,

01:11:47   because they're like, "No, we're gonna fight tooth and nail."

01:11:48   And it's like, you know, if you'd gone along,

01:11:50   you might've ended up in a better place,

01:11:52   but like, "No, we're gonna fight a tooth and nail."

01:11:53   All right, it's your funeral, but we'll see.

01:11:57   Like again, I'm open to the idea

01:11:59   that there's some very specific things with UTM and IDOS

01:12:02   that the apps are doing that is beyond

01:12:06   what the other emulators have,

01:12:10   and that Apple thinks it's a security thing,

01:12:12   but even there, even there,

01:12:15   they're allowing the European Commission to come in and say,

01:12:19   "Yeah, that's not good enough," right?

01:12:21   Like the EC, if this is about like a just-in-time compiler,

01:12:24   like a JIT, the EC could just come in and say,

01:12:29   "No, JITs are allowed."

01:12:31   And then what does Apple do?

01:12:33   I mean, Apple can't say no, or they'll get fined.

01:12:36   So why are you bringing this on yourself?

01:12:39   It's so stupid, and it really undermines the whole concept

01:12:42   that notarization is supposed to be kind of a fair deal,

01:12:46   where you're like, "You're outside the store,

01:12:47   so we're really only gonna be,

01:12:49   we're like almost independent,

01:12:51   and we're not doing this to enforce Apple's policies.

01:12:54   We're just trying to keep everybody safe."

01:12:56   And instead, it's like all of the safety things

01:13:01   that are really there to allow Apple to exert control

01:13:05   have gotten imported into notarization.

01:13:07   It is a real shame.

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01:14:56   So considering what we were talking about earlier on,

01:15:01   home screen tinting,

01:15:02   and there's obviously more home screen optimization

01:15:05   coming to the iPhone,

01:15:07   I wanted to get a little like check-in

01:15:10   and like a baseline set right now

01:15:13   of how our home screens are looking.

01:15:15   - Can I just say it, Mike?

01:15:17   - Yes.

01:15:18   - Summer of fun!

01:15:19   - Summer of fun!

01:15:20   Although there was more news breaking in this episode

01:15:22   than we expected, but nevertheless.

01:15:25   - But here we are at the, just to be clear,

01:15:27   the summer of fun means we're gonna do stuff like this,

01:15:30   just kind of, you know, unusual.

01:15:32   So it's our home screen.

01:15:33   So home screen, it's not a competition,

01:15:36   it's not a challenge, it's not a roast probably.

01:15:38   - No, well, I mean, it might be, it depends.

01:15:40   Summer of fun stuff, we usually, you know,

01:15:42   we need topics who bring these things in.

01:15:43   How, and we actually didn't today.

01:15:45   There was more news and other stuff we could've spoken about,

01:15:48   but we just started the summer of fun.

01:15:50   So I felt like we had to start

01:15:51   with a summer of fun like topic.

01:15:53   So here we are.

01:15:54   - Yeah, here we are.

01:15:55   - So I'm gonna take a look at your home screen first.

01:15:59   - All right.

01:16:00   - Do you want to take me on a tour or anything?

01:16:03   - Yeah, just thinking about where we are

01:16:05   and where we might go with iOS 18.

01:16:08   - Yeah.

01:16:10   - Yeah, sure.

01:16:11   So in terms of apps,

01:16:13   and I know we've talked about this before,

01:16:14   it hasn't changed a lot.

01:16:15   At the bottom, I have Overcast, Safari,

01:16:17   Fantastic Cal, and Slack in a doc.

01:16:22   Although the doc doesn't really matter

01:16:23   other than they're more reachable

01:16:25   because I only have one page.

01:16:27   - Yeah, just one, that's interesting.

01:16:28   Just one screen.

01:16:29   - Yeah, I'm big search boy.

01:16:33   Like if it's not there,

01:16:34   sometimes I have to realize,

01:16:35   oh, that app is on the home screen.

01:16:36   I don't need to search for it.

01:16:37   'Cause I just, I do a lot of that.

01:16:39   - Do you not think though,

01:16:40   like you could have a whole widget page over there?

01:16:43   You know, you could have a bunch of widgets

01:16:45   on another page showing you some fun info.

01:16:47   - Like even in the Today View, I could have widgets.

01:16:49   - You could, you could.

01:16:50   You could have them anywhere you like.

01:16:52   - I do have a couple of widgets in the Today View.

01:16:55   I have thought about it.

01:16:58   In particular, like on a vacation or something,

01:17:00   or on a trip, I might add them,

01:17:03   but I tend to not otherwise.

01:17:06   If I was motivated, I would do that.

01:17:11   But I have not been motivated.

01:17:12   I probably just put them in the Today View, right?

01:17:13   Because then I don't even need to add another page.

01:17:17   'Cause I just swipe the other way.

01:17:18   'Cause it doesn't really matter, right?

01:17:20   At that point, if you only have one page,

01:17:21   swiping left or right doesn't matter.

01:17:23   You're just going to a page with widgets.

01:17:26   Anyway, so those are my doc apps.

01:17:29   And then I have on my phone, I have the MLB app,

01:17:34   'cause I'm a baseball fan,

01:17:35   and checking on the scores and bring up live activities.

01:17:39   - Not Apple Sports or anything like that?

01:17:41   You're not?

01:17:42   - No.

01:17:43   - No?

01:17:44   - No.

01:17:45   - What does the MLB app give you that sports doesn't?

01:17:48   - Well, I can listen.

01:17:52   I can put on audio.

01:17:53   - Okay, that's pretty big.

01:17:54   (laughs)

01:17:56   - And I can put on video,

01:17:56   but I mostly don't do that on my iPhone.

01:17:58   But I can put on the game, like the radio broadcast.

01:18:01   Plus it's got box scores.

01:18:02   It's got lots more detail than the Apple Sports app has.

01:18:06   - Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

01:18:08   - I have Slack on my doc,

01:18:10   but I have Discord on my home screen.

01:18:12   Didn't used to,

01:18:13   but all our membership communities are in Discord now.

01:18:16   I have three of them.

01:18:19   Four of them, if you count,

01:18:20   Twit actually, where I'm only on there though,

01:18:22   during the live show.

01:18:24   But incomparable in six colors and relay.

01:18:27   So I've got Discord everywhere now.

01:18:30   Didn't used to.

01:18:32   Carrot is my weather app that's on my home screen.

01:18:37   Other weather apps are available,

01:18:42   but Carrot is the one that I have.

01:18:43   I've got a little orange icon.

01:18:44   Little aesthetic going there.

01:18:47   I chose a custom icon for Carrot.

01:18:49   It's an orange one.

01:18:50   - Is that for giants?

01:18:51   'Cause they're giants?

01:18:52   - Mm, mostly 'cause I like orange.

01:18:55   - Okay.

01:18:56   - It's a nice color.

01:18:58   It could be for the giants too.

01:18:59   - Let's go giants.

01:19:00   - They're orange.

01:19:00   - Yeah.

01:19:01   - Yeah, sure.

01:19:02   I mean, I have the overcast in the light color too,

01:19:04   'cause I like the orange.

01:19:06   - Well, you can actually set,

01:19:08   you can choose.

01:19:09   So you can choose dark or light

01:19:11   and then also choose the icon,

01:19:12   which I've done.

01:19:14   - Yes, I choose orange.

01:19:16   - The iconic icon.

01:19:17   - It's beautiful.

01:19:18   - I gotta ask about the iRobot app.

01:19:20   I gotta ask about iRobot.

01:19:21   - Just let me go camera, music, notes,

01:19:25   settings, photos, messages, maps, phone.

01:19:30   - Big stock boy.

01:19:33   - Mail and iRobot.

01:19:36   - Yeah.

01:19:37   We've got a lot of stock apps.

01:19:39   Actually, before we get to iRobot, settings?

01:19:41   - Okay.

01:19:41   Well, yeah, man.

01:19:44   - What do you mean, well, yeah, man?

01:19:45   How often are you in settings?

01:19:47   - I'm changing settings all the time.

01:19:49   I mean, I don't have it in my dock.

01:19:50   I'm not a monster.

01:19:51   - How often do you change in settings

01:19:53   and what are you changing?

01:19:54   - It's, you know, if I need to get on,

01:19:57   some of this is probably control centerable

01:19:59   and I'm just not doing it there.

01:20:00   - Yes, it really is.

01:20:01   It really, really is.

01:20:03   - Yeah.

01:20:04   - You're like, oh, if you turn off the wifi,

01:20:06   I gotta go to settings.

01:20:07   - Well, no, but it's like I gotta find the new wifi

01:20:09   and I can swipe down and do that.

01:20:10   Or I, you know, I don't know.

01:20:11   - Is that a lot?

01:20:12   Is that a lot you're dealing with?

01:20:13   - I find myself going to settings enough

01:20:18   and my home screen is not full, right?

01:20:19   I find myself going to settings enough

01:20:21   that I don't wanna pull down and type S-E-T and then tap.

01:20:25   - Sure, sure, sure.

01:20:26   - I can just tap on settings.

01:20:27   Do I use it a lot?

01:20:28   Probably not, but enough, enough that it makes me,

01:20:33   also honestly, there's a lot of,

01:20:35   hey Jason, can you do this thing on the iPhone?

01:20:37   I'm like, all right, let me see where that is in settings.

01:20:39   It's this and this and this.

01:20:40   I might tell somebody you go here and then here

01:20:42   and then here and then you do.

01:20:43   - I have now realized that there is no home screen topic

01:20:46   that doesn't become a roast.

01:20:48   Like, I feel like that's just-

01:20:49   - It's true.

01:20:50   I was trying to say it might not be a roast as a suggestion.

01:20:52   - There's no way it doesn't become one.

01:20:53   - No, it doesn't.

01:20:54   - There's no way it doesn't become one.

01:20:55   - Explain yourself.

01:20:56   Settings, I don't know.

01:20:57   I find it useful.

01:20:58   It would not be there.

01:20:59   I've removed a lot of things from my home screen

01:21:02   and it's still there,

01:21:03   which means that I must hit it enough for it to matter.

01:21:06   - Sure.

01:21:07   Okay.

01:21:09   - What other questions do you have?

01:21:10   - iRobot, I feel like I cut you off of iRobot.

01:21:12   Are you like often starting the rumor manually?

01:21:18   - You know, it's actually more about stopping the Roomba.

01:21:22   - Okay.

01:21:23   - But yeah, so the fact is,

01:21:25   sometimes the Roomba is set to go most days at,

01:21:29   I think one or two in the afternoon.

01:21:32   And sometimes I, 'cause I work at home, right?

01:21:36   Sometimes I'm doing stuff, I'm watching TV,

01:21:38   I'm working, whatever.

01:21:39   If I'm in the garage, it's okay.

01:21:41   Just happened where Juneteenth was Wednesday.

01:21:45   So Lauren had it off and the robot started to go

01:21:48   and I was able to very quickly say, no robot, go home.

01:21:50   Right?

01:21:51   So some of it is just, I can't do this right now

01:21:55   and I'll pause it or I'll send it home.

01:21:58   Also, it happens sometimes where I'll notice

01:22:02   like cat litter on the hallway carpet

01:22:04   and I'll just be like, send the robot to do the hallway

01:22:07   because there's cat litter that came out of the cat box.

01:22:10   Or we'll be leaving for curling and I'll say,

01:22:13   and Lauren will say, can you run the robot?

01:22:15   And I'll give it a full house run as we leave

01:22:17   so that while we're gone,

01:22:18   the robot is going around and doing its thing.

01:22:21   So I have enough robot control.

01:22:24   Like, could it be replaced with like a widget

01:22:27   or a control center item?

01:22:29   Oh, right down.

01:22:30   Well, I mean, I would hope so.

01:22:32   'Cause there's only really basic, I don't do a lot of,

01:22:35   oh, let's look at the map or let's change the schedule.

01:22:38   It's not a lot of that.

01:22:39   It's a lot of start or stop that I'm doing

01:22:42   that I could probably do something else.

01:22:45   It might be in home because like one of the home improvements

01:22:49   was support for robot vacuums,

01:22:50   but it does require iRobot doing that.

01:22:54   But they could also just add a control center widget

01:22:57   from the iOS 18 to do it.

01:22:58   Start and stop.

01:22:59   But for now, that's why iRobot is there.

01:23:01   Do I spend a lot of time on my phone going,

01:23:03   oh man, I'm gonna go in.

01:23:05   And they're trying like everybody else.

01:23:06   iRobot is trying to like,

01:23:07   oh, let's do the whole iRobot experience in our app.

01:23:10   And you can shop for things and learn tips.

01:23:13   And all the others are like,

01:23:14   I'm not interested in any of that.

01:23:15   I'd love to send a message right now.

01:23:17   Jason, you know they have some shortcuts actions.

01:23:20   I just looked.

01:23:21   You could make a shortcut to pause it.

01:23:22   - Yeah, I could.

01:23:25   - Just letting you know.

01:23:26   I'm not saying you should.

01:23:27   I'm not saying you should.

01:23:29   - Again, but it's not gonna be as compact

01:23:31   as just opening the app

01:23:32   and then having all the controls there, right?

01:23:34   - Yeah, this is also one of these things

01:23:36   where I'm like trying to save the feedback, you know?

01:23:39   - Yeah, sure, sure.

01:23:41   Well, it's controllable by home voice assistants too, right?

01:23:46   And I'm not interested.

01:23:49   I configured that up for when I had an Echo

01:23:52   that I could use Alexa to do that.

01:23:54   And I never, literally never did it.

01:23:56   It's just not, I'm just not interested in that.

01:23:58   I'd rather just flip open the phone and go boop boop

01:24:01   and send the robot where I need it to go.

01:24:03   But I'm hoping, I think iOS 18,

01:24:05   whether it's home or control center

01:24:08   or some combination thereof might solve enough

01:24:11   of my use cases that I, right?

01:24:14   'Cause the idea there is if I'm launching it

01:24:16   a couple of times a week,

01:24:17   I mean, I might as well put it on the home screen.

01:24:19   But if I only have to launch it to, you know,

01:24:23   change a setting or a schedule or something like that,

01:24:27   then it doesn't need to be on my home screen.

01:24:28   If I can get quick access to telling the robot

01:24:31   to stop what it's doing, 'cause robots are dumb.

01:24:33   They're real dumb.

01:24:34   Maybe AI will make them all better,

01:24:37   but right now they're still pretty dumb.

01:24:38   Even the smart ones are kind of dumb.

01:24:40   - And what is going on with that weather widget?

01:24:43   - All right, so at the very top, I have a weather widget.

01:24:46   This is inscriptable.

01:24:50   It is a widget I wrote, or at least I adapted from,

01:24:55   it was like a German hourly weather widget,

01:24:59   but I liked how it looked.

01:25:00   So I converted it.

01:25:02   It uses weather kit.

01:25:03   It's got the high temperatures in my,

01:25:08   I have a bunch of different widgets

01:25:10   on different platforms that do this, but for the iPhone,

01:25:13   this was the most effective way to do it,

01:25:15   was to use scriptable.

01:25:16   So it's using weather kit of the high and the conditions,

01:25:22   which look really boring right now, right?

01:25:24   'Cause it's California in the summertime.

01:25:25   So there's a cloud today, and then it's just a sun

01:25:27   the rest of the time.

01:25:29   And then there's some other data from my weather station

01:25:31   that's also in here.

01:25:32   So it's got the high and low for today so far.

01:25:36   The current conditions, partly cloudy.

01:25:38   The current temperature, 51 degrees.

01:25:40   That took this at 8.38 AM.

01:25:43   10 degrees cooler today.

01:25:44   We had some warm days,

01:25:46   but that's actually one of my favorite stats in here

01:25:48   is that, is it gonna be cooler?

01:25:50   Is it shaping up to be cooler or warmer than yesterday?

01:25:53   And I can see, well, the highest forecast to be 71.

01:25:56   And it's, yeah, it's already 10 degrees cooler

01:25:58   than it was at this time yesterday,

01:26:00   which I find really useful.

01:26:01   Like, I think that's really helpful.

01:26:03   And two degrees warmer in the last hour.

01:26:05   So you can see if the heat is really spiking.

01:26:07   It's like, oh geez, I better get out now.

01:26:08   'Cause it's really heating up out there.

01:26:10   So this is my like personal home weather dashboard widget.

01:26:15   - Yeah, you mentioned that Cara got an update recently

01:26:18   and one of the, and it like, when you open it now,

01:26:20   it can show you some things that have changed.

01:26:22   I actually really liked it.

01:26:23   It's like, hey, it's two degrees warmer than yesterday.

01:26:26   - Celsius. - It's a great stat.

01:26:28   - That's a good, that's just a good thing to know.

01:26:30   Like, oh, okay.

01:26:31   That's interesting.

01:26:32   'Cause it puts it in a bit of context,

01:26:34   which is, it makes me think like, did I feel warm today?

01:26:37   'Cause I'll feel warmer tomorrow or whatever,

01:26:39   you know, or yesterday, today.

01:26:41   - So there is underneath, this is actually a stack.

01:26:46   - Okay. - This is a new feature.

01:26:48   So I also have a Mercury weather widget underneath here.

01:26:53   Yes, I'm paying for Cara and Mercury.

01:26:57   - Look, you're a weather nerd

01:26:58   and everyone just has to get used to it.

01:26:59   - It's true.

01:27:00   I like Cara, I think I like Cara better than Mercury

01:27:03   in general, but I think Cara is lacking a feature

01:27:07   that Mercury has, which is trip forecasts.

01:27:09   So when I'm traveling, I flip it over to Mercury.

01:27:13   'Cause Mercury will do the thing where it'll say,

01:27:15   it's gonna be a high here on Thursday,

01:27:19   and then you're traveling.

01:27:20   And here's the temperature on Friday, Saturday, Sunday,

01:27:22   when you're traveling to that city.

01:27:25   And then you come back home.

01:27:27   So when I went to visit my mom,

01:27:29   it was like 72, 75, 72, 105, 101, 100, 69, 71.

01:27:34   And it's like, oh, Phoenix weather in there.

01:27:41   And I like that.

01:27:43   I think that's pretty cool to be able to see

01:27:44   how it's shaping up.

01:27:45   So if I'm about to go on a trip or I'm on a trip,

01:27:47   to be able to see that I don't necessarily need the details

01:27:51   of my home while I'm traveling,

01:27:52   so I flip over to the Mercury widget.

01:27:55   - Very cool. - Which is cool.

01:27:58   All right, this is pretty standard.

01:28:00   Should we switch over to me?

01:28:02   There's a lot going on here.

01:28:05   - Yeah, it's a lot of stock apps.

01:28:08   - You're a very stock apps boy, and you love your settings.

01:28:10   That's what we know about you.

01:28:11   - And I love my settings.

01:28:13   And the phone, I'm surprised you didn't say anything

01:28:15   about phone.

01:28:16   Sometimes I gotta call people.

01:28:18   - Yeah. - I don't love it.

01:28:20   - At the point that we have like maps and settings

01:28:22   and camera and photos, it's like, you're in it.

01:28:28   - I don't even have reminders on there,

01:28:29   which I probably could.

01:28:30   I use reminders a lot too.

01:28:31   I should probably put reminders.

01:28:32   - I mean, you have three extra spaces,

01:28:33   so you might as well go for it.

01:28:35   - I do, I do.

01:28:36   So for iOS, I'll just say for iOS 18,

01:28:39   we talked about some of the things that we might be able

01:28:41   to put in control center that would reduce my need

01:28:46   to have them elsewhere.

01:28:48   That is possible.

01:28:49   And then I think the other thing I anticipate

01:28:51   is that I will probably do what I think a lot of people

01:28:54   will do, which is bring down more apps

01:28:57   lower on the screen.

01:28:58   - Yeah, it would make sense for you to shift it all down one.

01:29:01   - Exactly, 'cause I want the ones that I'm using most often

01:29:04   above the dock apps to be the next,

01:29:07   for next most oftenly used, right?

01:29:10   That's the way that should be.

01:29:11   Anyway, let's look at you.

01:29:14   - So I'm gonna start from the top down

01:29:16   and we'll go from there.

01:29:18   So the very top, I have a stack of Carrot weather

01:29:21   and Fantastic Cowl widgets,

01:29:23   and they rotate throughout the day.

01:29:26   So I can know my weather or I can know

01:29:28   what my next tasks are.

01:29:29   So I like having those there.

01:29:31   They're pretty helpful for me to have that.

01:29:33   Then we move on to, I have another stack of widgets,

01:29:38   which is Dew and Reminders.

01:29:42   So the Reminders are shared,

01:29:43   like this is like where we put our house tasks

01:29:45   and stuff like that, it goes in Reminders.

01:29:48   And then Dew is where I have little things

01:29:50   for myself to deal with.

01:29:51   And then I have a full block of apps,

01:29:55   Notes, Discord, Google Maps, and CityMapper.

01:29:58   Then I have Camera, Instagram, Messages, and Slack.

01:30:04   And then I have a stack of a small widget,

01:30:06   a Timery widget, and underneath it is a Shortcuts widget

01:30:09   with two time tracking widgets that I use.

01:30:13   And my dock is Todoist, Notion, Safari, and Overcast.

01:30:18   So that's screen one.

01:30:20   Screen two.

01:30:21   - There's a lot of organization happening there.

01:30:23   - Screen two, I have a stack of Notion widgets,

01:30:26   so I can get to different things quickly.

01:30:29   Then I have a couple of WidgetSmith widgets

01:30:32   with different albums.

01:30:35   Then I have a stack of widgets for the app Peak,

01:30:39   which is just fitness stuff.

01:30:41   So it shows your rings and your steps,

01:30:42   and you can choose what you want in there.

01:30:45   Then I have another stack of Photos widgets.

01:30:47   One is the official Photos app one,

01:30:49   and then one is the WidgetSmith on this day,

01:30:52   and they rotate.

01:30:53   Then I have a stack of two home widgets,

01:30:56   one for my home and one for my studio.

01:30:58   - Ah, right.

01:31:00   - Then I have a-- - Some widgets.

01:31:02   - Yeah, I love widgets.

01:31:03   Then I have another page, which is mostly all widgets.

01:31:06   I have one for my home security system, Abode.

01:31:09   Then I have another WidgetSmith widget,

01:31:12   which shows me the polling count.

01:31:14   - All right.

01:31:16   - Which gets cycled in and out throughout the year.

01:31:18   Then I have another stack, like a longer stack.

01:31:20   So this has got a bunch of things in it.

01:31:22   What you're looking at right now

01:31:24   is a WidgetSmith countdown widget,

01:31:26   but this is one of the newer ones

01:31:27   that David added last year with the interactive,

01:31:30   where the actual countdown to the event,

01:31:32   I have to tap on the image,

01:31:33   and it slides up and shows me the actual date,

01:31:37   which is nice, so that I don't need to look at

01:31:39   how many days it is until the London Live show,

01:31:41   which is currently one month, six days,

01:31:43   whilst we're recording this.

01:31:44   Then I have in this stack a Formula One app called BoxBox,

01:31:48   which shows me the calendar of the Formula One races,

01:31:51   and then another WidgetSmith widget,

01:31:53   which is time zones for the time zones

01:31:55   that I need to be aware of,

01:31:57   and then a widget from the app Game Track,

01:32:01   which is a game tracking app,

01:32:03   which shows me the games

01:32:04   that I'm currently playing in progress.

01:32:06   Then I have Duolingo, 165-day streak, no biggie.

01:32:10   And then I have New York Times Games,

01:32:13   which is a new one for me.

01:32:15   Everyone plays it, and I wanna play it, and I'm enjoying it.

01:32:18   I have Delta, the emulator,

01:32:20   and then I have MetaView,

01:32:21   which is the app for my sunglasses,

01:32:24   and then ChatGPT, because, you know, it's where we are.

01:32:27   - Okay.

01:32:29   - That's my home screens.

01:32:30   - Well, I am shamed by your amazing widget collection.

01:32:35   - I love widgets, man.

01:32:37   I really love widgets.

01:32:38   - It's really good.

01:32:39   I've been going, and we learned this

01:32:41   when Steven judged me that one time.

01:32:44   We learned that I am a minimalist in a lot of ways.

01:32:49   So my tendency is to say,

01:32:53   "Ah, I'm not gonna do a second page."

01:32:55   And you said, "Why not do a second page with widgets?"

01:32:56   I'm like, "Yeah, am I really gonna use it?"

01:32:59   Right.

01:33:00   It's just a tendency,

01:33:02   and I'm not entirely sure that it's right.

01:33:06   Am I knowing myself,

01:33:07   or am I just precluding myself from trying it?

01:33:09   But this is sort of aspirational and inspirational for me

01:33:12   in some ways, where I think,

01:33:14   being clever about having the stacks

01:33:16   and having things that you don't need to see every time

01:33:18   and I don't use my phone as much as you do,

01:33:22   because I'm mostly at home,

01:33:24   and I use my phone some at home,

01:33:26   but not as much as my iPad and my Mac.

01:33:28   But seeing the way you use stacks, I really like that.

01:33:33   - Oh, I have a whole lot of homescreens

01:33:36   we're not gonna get into today,

01:33:37   where travel ones and stuff,

01:33:39   where when I'm traveling,

01:33:41   and then I have the flighty one and the tripsy one,

01:33:43   and I have a calendar, and then find my...

01:33:47   - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:33:48   I think that widgets are very good.

01:33:50   I just like that they can surface so much information,

01:33:54   which is good information for me to have

01:33:57   that otherwise I wouldn't have,

01:33:59   or I would have to go and get.

01:34:00   Like for example, the peak one,

01:34:03   which shows me my activity rings and my steps

01:34:06   all in one widget.

01:34:07   Or the Duolingo widget.

01:34:08   The Duolingo widget is great if you use Duolingo,

01:34:11   because the image changes.

01:34:12   So if you haven't done your Duolingo today,

01:34:15   it's a good reminder.

01:34:17   And I think Duolingo is quite clever

01:34:19   that they have the owl, which is their mascot,

01:34:24   doing increasingly weird things.

01:34:27   Like sometimes I've seen its face melting.

01:34:30   Sometimes it's like the head has opened up

01:34:32   and another owl.

01:34:33   They're trying to grab your attention

01:34:35   with really weird imagery to indicate to you

01:34:39   that you need to do your Duolingo.

01:34:40   And then when you've done it,

01:34:41   you get the little celebratory owl

01:34:43   that you've done your Duolingo for today.

01:34:44   So like, I like the way that they do that.

01:34:47   And that's just like a good piece of information for me.

01:34:49   The countdown and also the photo widgets.

01:34:52   I think I'm surprised that you don't use those at least,

01:34:56   because I know that you care a lot

01:34:58   about your photo library.

01:34:59   And the photo widgets that I use,

01:35:01   both the official photos one,

01:35:03   and then also the WidgetSmith ones,

01:35:05   where I get the on this day,

01:35:07   is like that is surfacing for me images

01:35:10   that I otherwise would not see today.

01:35:12   And I think that that is a real pleasure.

01:35:15   - So I have photo widgets on my iPad.

01:35:18   - Yeah, that makes sense.

01:35:19   - But not on my, because for me,

01:35:22   so my iPad is evening,

01:35:24   like evening watching less engaging TV and going to bed.

01:35:30   And morning when I wake up and I'm reading and all that.

01:35:34   And so I've got all good morning,

01:35:36   open your iPad,

01:35:37   that would be a great thing for Tim to say as an alarm.

01:35:41   Good morning.

01:35:43   The, so for me, that is like a place

01:35:47   where the iPad interface is very comfy.

01:35:51   And that's a good place to put things like photos.

01:35:53   The iPhone, I don't know.

01:35:58   I think maybe my iPhone,

01:35:59   I just treated a little more as a utilitarian thing than,

01:36:02   but this is offering me inspiration.

01:36:04   I have some questions.

01:36:05   - Okay, I will just say on that,

01:36:06   you saying about utilitarian.

01:36:08   For me, that means you should be even more widget focused.

01:36:12   I think. - All right.

01:36:13   - So your phone, everything you open your phone,

01:36:16   I think it should be showing you the thing

01:36:20   that you're wanting before you even needed

01:36:22   to do anything with it.

01:36:23   - Oh, interesting.

01:36:25   Interesting, but I'm never gonna open my phone

01:36:26   to see a picture.

01:36:28   - Yeah, that's fine though.

01:36:29   But you do use them, but use them on your iPad,

01:36:33   which I think is obviously the better place for you.

01:36:34   But there are, for example, a calendar widget

01:36:39   or a reminders widget.

01:36:41   - They are quite utilitarian things.

01:36:43   They're surfacing information for you.

01:36:45   - Right, and I do have a calendar widget on my iPad.

01:36:49   - Yeah. - Right?

01:36:50   - Yeah.

01:36:51   - But it's a good point.

01:36:53   It's a good point.

01:36:54   So I have an organizational question for you,

01:36:57   which is you've got these,

01:37:00   so you've staggered your small widgets on your first page,

01:37:05   which creates holes for four apps in squares next to it.

01:37:11   And you've got them next to them.

01:37:12   I don't understand, so I understand why Citymapper

01:37:16   and Google Maps are next to each other.

01:37:18   - Yep.

01:37:19   - And I understand why camera and Instagram

01:37:20   are next to each other.

01:37:22   I don't understand why Discord and Slack

01:37:23   are not next to each other.

01:37:25   - 'Cause messages and Slack are next to each other.

01:37:28   - Because you've used Slack and messages as more similar.

01:37:31   - It's more that Discord came later, right?

01:37:36   - Okay, there's no spot for it 'cause you got

01:37:39   camera and Instagram down there.

01:37:39   - So I've removed, I think, one password was next to Notes.

01:37:44   It's like, well, I want Discord on my home screen.

01:37:46   This is the only spot that I can give it.

01:37:51   And to me, messages and Slack feel closer to each other

01:37:55   than Discord and Slack or Discord and messages.

01:37:58   I'm also thinking, I'm looking at my home screen now

01:38:03   and I'm trying to think what could go,

01:38:04   'cause I think I'm gonna have to think about some stuff

01:38:07   to go 'cause I wanna try some stuff out.

01:38:09   And I think I could probably,

01:38:13   I think Discord and Notes I could remove

01:38:15   from the home screen.

01:38:17   I use them all the time, but I don't think I really need

01:38:19   the instant access to them, they're more purpose-driven.

01:38:22   So I'm more likely to search for those.

01:38:25   But that's only two, so it's gonna be complicated.

01:38:28   This is why I wanted to do this today,

01:38:29   of take stock right now, 'cause as I'm looking

01:38:31   at my home screen, especially, my selection,

01:38:34   I feel like it's perfect for me.

01:38:38   So I don't really know how I'm gonna take advantage

01:38:41   of the, oh, you can put your icons wherever you want.

01:38:44   It's like, well, they already kind of are where I want them.

01:38:47   - Well, I'll say one thing you could do,

01:38:48   you've got these blocks of four.

01:38:49   One thing you're gonna be able to do is if you decide

01:38:52   you wanna kick something out,

01:38:53   you don't have to replace it with something,

01:38:55   at least not right away.

01:38:56   So you could throw, for example,

01:38:58   what if you wanted to group

01:39:02   Camera Instagram and Metaview together?

01:39:04   Everything you've got is groups of four.

01:39:07   You could do a group of three in iOS 18, right?

01:39:11   And then have that other one just sit empty.

01:39:13   And that might be okay.

01:39:15   I know there's some people are very much like,

01:39:16   oh no, you gotta fill all the slots, but you could not.

01:39:19   And it would be okay.

01:39:20   Whereas right now you can't not fill the slots, right?

01:39:24   That's how it has to be.

01:39:26   So you could kick notes off or kick Discord off

01:39:30   and keep the other three there,

01:39:32   and it would still be possible.

01:39:35   - And I also wonder how Control Center

01:39:39   might unlock the ability to remove some of the apps.

01:39:42   And then maybe that will,

01:39:44   I don't know what that will be yet.

01:39:46   There is a possibility that some apps

01:39:48   or even some widgets that I have,

01:39:51   I won't need them to be where they are.

01:39:54   So that might unlock a bit more customization possibility

01:39:58   for me.

01:39:59   - Right.

01:40:00   Yeah, for sure.

01:40:02   It's interesting.

01:40:03   Another difference between how I do it

01:40:05   and how you do it is that you don't have music on here.

01:40:10   - I very, I mean, honestly,

01:40:14   I actually seldom listen to music.

01:40:17   Like I listen to podcasts and I watch videos on YouTube.

01:40:22   Like that is the majority of the things

01:40:25   that I'm listening to.

01:40:26   If I listen to music,

01:40:28   I'm listening on devices that aren't my phone.

01:40:33   And so I have a weekend focus mode, for example,

01:40:36   which puts the Sonos app on my home screen.

01:40:38   - Okay.

01:40:39   I tried and I decided I didn't like it,

01:40:43   the putting in a travel focus while I'm traveling.

01:40:47   I will do it while I'm like literally traveling,

01:40:50   but when I get to my destination,

01:40:51   I don't like having that there.

01:40:54   - I have a vacation home screen for that reason.

01:40:56   So travel is one and then vacation is another

01:41:00   because the apps change,

01:41:02   but they are different to what I want when I'm at home.

01:41:06   - Sure.

01:41:07   So I mostly have, I mean,

01:41:11   I listen to music in the car sometimes,

01:41:14   mostly podcasts, but not always.

01:41:16   And on dog walks, I am just checking my Apple Watch

01:41:21   and I'm listening to podcasts,

01:41:22   but on flights, I do a lot of listening to music.

01:41:26   So, and my iPhone is again,

01:41:29   because I'm not an iPhone primary person,

01:41:33   one of the big things about my iPhone is

01:41:35   I'm using it when I'm in transit.

01:41:37   When I'm in the car, when I'm on a plane,

01:41:40   I actually use the iPhone and rely on it a lot.

01:41:44   So I, some of my stuff is kind of skewed toward,

01:41:48   I'm waiting at the gate, I'm going down the jetway

01:41:51   and we're stopped and I'm looking at discord or whatever,

01:41:53   like that stuff.

01:41:54   Or like when I went to Portland and I rescheduled

01:41:57   who was gonna be on upgrade while sitting at the gate

01:41:59   and going down the jetway.

01:42:00   And that was all in messages and Slack

01:42:02   and that was all happening on my phone.

01:42:05   So it's scenarios like that when I'm out and about

01:42:08   that it gets used the most.

01:42:11   But iRobot is still there because sometimes

01:42:13   you just gotta tell the robot to stop.

01:42:16   - I'm intrigued to see where we'll be

01:42:17   in like a year from now.

01:42:18   Like, are we gonna embrace these new customization options?

01:42:22   Are we gonna theme our icons?

01:42:25   I have to wait and see. - It's interesting.

01:42:27   I think the places that Apple is missing the boat

01:42:30   in addition to the light icons that David Smith mentioned

01:42:33   are, I kind of can't believe you can't theme per page.

01:42:37   - Or per icon.

01:42:39   - And per icon, but certainly per page.

01:42:42   And the fact that you can't, if an app,

01:42:44   they should really have an interface.

01:42:46   If an app has a bunch of custom icons offered to users,

01:42:49   there should be a way for it to just happen

01:42:52   in the home screen where you should tap

01:42:53   and say, pick a custom icon.

01:42:55   You shouldn't have to go into the app,

01:42:56   into settings and do it, right?

01:42:58   And you can't do that either.

01:43:00   It's weird.

01:43:01   It's weird.

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01:44:47   It's time for some ask upgrade questions.

01:44:52   Let's chase the snow.

01:44:54   First one today comes from Upgrading Kevin who says,

01:44:59   "In thinking about the new,

01:45:00   more powerful Apple intelligence infused Siri,

01:45:04   I'm curious if you guys think HomePod upgrades

01:45:07   will be required to enable that

01:45:09   for queries shouted into the air in my home.

01:45:11   Clearly the chips in the current HomePods

01:45:13   do not match the requirements laid out for iPhones,

01:45:16   iPads or Macs to take advantage.

01:45:18   So it seems to me that we would necessarily

01:45:21   be expecting new HomePods soon."

01:45:24   I wanna give you my initial thought on this one, Jason,

01:45:26   and why I wanted to include this in the show today.

01:45:29   'Cause I've been hearing people say like,

01:45:31   "Oh, why can't they just have

01:45:33   the cloud-based Apple intelligence for the older phones?"

01:45:38   Right?

01:45:40   And Apple's maybe not gonna do that

01:45:41   because it's just gonna be too many requests,

01:45:43   too complicated.

01:45:45   I could imagine a scenario

01:45:46   where that's how they deal with HomePods.

01:45:49   - Yeah.

01:45:51   What do you think about this?

01:45:53   - I think Apple's moving so fast on this

01:45:56   that there's details that are either not disclosed

01:46:00   or that they're not worrying about it right now, right?

01:46:03   'Cause they've got so much else to do.

01:46:04   But I think it's a really good question.

01:46:06   HomePod, like, leaving aside the specifics

01:46:13   of any given hardware platform, just think about Siri.

01:46:18   Like, some devices run Siri on device.

01:46:23   Most of them don't.

01:46:25   Most of them have to go to the cloud.

01:46:27   Are all of Apple's other devices

01:46:31   going to just continue contacting

01:46:32   this not very good cloud service for everything forever?

01:46:36   Especially if it's all in the cloud anyway, right?

01:46:41   Like, so I think one question is,

01:46:43   will Apple give an intelligence upgrade

01:46:47   to cloud Siri in the long run?

01:46:49   Now, maybe they can't do it now

01:46:50   because of the scale required of Apple Silicon

01:46:54   in the cloud for the private cloud computer.

01:46:56   Although I'll point out that current Siri

01:46:58   doesn't use private cloud compute.

01:47:00   It just uses its own thing.

01:47:01   But it doesn't have any context for you, right?

01:47:05   Because you don't...

01:47:06   What context does the HomePod have for you, really?

01:47:10   - None.

01:47:11   - And yet there could be some value

01:47:14   in having a more intelligent cloud Siri anyway.

01:47:18   So I don't know if they've even thought about it yet,

01:47:21   other than as a passing sort of like,

01:47:23   we can't deal with that now.

01:47:24   In the future, I do wonder if they will

01:47:30   at least gate access to that by using new hardware.

01:47:34   But again, my same question comes up,

01:47:36   which is my Apple TV, my HomePod,

01:47:42   my cellular Apple watch do not have access

01:47:47   to the personal context that's built up

01:47:51   by that semantic index.

01:47:53   Because you need a device that you use

01:47:56   and that's full of your data.

01:47:57   And your watch doesn't have it.

01:47:59   And your Apple TV doesn't have it.

01:48:00   It has some data, right?

01:48:01   It knows about your library and stuff.

01:48:02   And so I could see it applying there.

01:48:04   HomePod, you could argue, you build it

01:48:06   and you have it be a basic set of like statuses

01:48:10   and web queries and music library and podcast library

01:48:14   or something like that, right?

01:48:16   And so I could see it more there

01:48:18   for very specific use cases that are not gonna be

01:48:21   the same kind of broad thing,

01:48:23   but that will be better than what is there.

01:48:25   So like also you could turn on personal requests, right?

01:48:28   At which point I think your HomePod talks to your iPhone.

01:48:33   And I think that is a way that they may gate

01:48:37   the HomePod into this is you turn on personal requests

01:48:40   and now the HomePod is really asking the iPhone

01:48:43   and the iPhone is giving the response

01:48:45   and then the HomePod responds.

01:48:46   And you could maybe do it that way.

01:48:48   In the long run, I think probably there will be hardware

01:48:52   that will be compatible with Apple intelligence.

01:48:54   But even so, I think they're gonna have to make changes

01:48:58   to how they do it.

01:48:59   And their focus is gonna be primarily on iPhone

01:49:03   and iPad and Mac.

01:49:04   And then Vision Pro and watch.

01:49:07   And then HomePod and Apple TV, right?

01:49:10   It's they're way down on the list

01:49:12   and this is a year where their list is full.

01:49:14   So I think in the long run, they'll do it in some form.

01:49:19   It may require new hardware and it may require a connection

01:49:23   to another device for it really to work

01:49:26   or it'll be super specific to, on the Apple TV,

01:49:28   I know about your streaming services that you're logged into

01:49:32   and your personal context on this device is very different

01:49:34   from what it is on your iPhone.

01:49:37   Or they might say, "Oh man, we really need that context."

01:49:40   So whenever we have the opportunity,

01:49:42   we're gonna have you pair it with your iPhone

01:49:45   so that the Apple accessory can talk to your iPhone

01:49:48   and get your personal context and use that instead

01:49:50   and sort of cheat that way.

01:49:53   A lot of good questions.

01:49:53   I'm sure a lot of smart people at Apple

01:49:55   have been scratching their heads about this,

01:49:57   but it will seem a shame, right?

01:50:00   If Apple's continuing to offer this kind of poor

01:50:03   cloud-based Siri in the long run on all older devices,

01:50:08   when it could probably give that thing an update

01:50:11   to a more intelligent version,

01:50:13   even if it's not as responsive or as good

01:50:16   as the Siri that's using Apple intelligence.

01:50:18   And it's just an unanswered question

01:50:20   whether they will have some story for old Siri

01:50:24   and are just focused on Apple intelligence right now,

01:50:27   or whether it literally is just a huge gaping dividing line

01:50:30   and it's like, if you want a better Siri,

01:50:31   sorry, you just gotta buy new hardware.

01:50:33   - I see a scenario where like the semantic index

01:50:37   and the personal context could be shared between devices

01:50:40   by creating some kind of local connection between them

01:50:43   and it like updates them at night or something, right?

01:50:45   So like it knows stuff about you.

01:50:47   I don't know how that will work,

01:50:49   but I could imagine them doing something like that

01:50:51   akin to how they've done some of the health sharing, right?

01:50:55   Because you can get your health information

01:50:57   on different devices and you can,

01:50:59   and it shares some of the photos, faces between devices,

01:51:02   right, stuff that initially was like, whoa, no way,

01:51:05   we can't share that,

01:51:07   but then they work out a way to do it.

01:51:09   And I imagine in the future they will do that.

01:51:11   The thing I can't imagine happening for a significant time

01:51:15   is HomePods and Apple TVs getting M-class chips.

01:51:20   So that's why I can imagine HomePods,

01:51:25   maybe just for the time being,

01:51:27   always just sending the requests out to the cloud

01:51:30   as like the default.

01:51:31   - Yeah, I think that that is the most likely.

01:51:34   They may need to do hardware updates anyway

01:51:37   to have some like maybe even voice processing on device.

01:51:40   Like you can do that, right?

01:51:41   There are certain like Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2

01:51:44   that do voice processing on device.

01:51:46   Like they're not doing all the thinking on device,

01:51:48   but there's some basic stuff they can do on device

01:51:50   and then they can send it out.

01:51:52   So I could see them gating it some way,

01:51:54   but I have a hard time imagining

01:51:55   they're gonna ship a HomePod with an M1 or an M2

01:51:58   and eight gigs of RAM, right?

01:51:59   Like that knows that's gonna download all your mail

01:52:02   from a server and like, it's not gonna happen, right?

01:52:04   It's not gonna happen.

01:52:05   So it could be maybe have a model on it

01:52:08   for your library or whatever and your podcast,

01:52:10   but like everything else,

01:52:11   it's really gonna be, you got a phone home.

01:52:14   And is that home,

01:52:16   I don't think that home is gonna be like a semantic index

01:52:19   about you that lives on a server, right?

01:52:21   Apple has said the semantic index is per device.

01:52:24   It's not per user.

01:52:25   And I think they're gonna keep with that.

01:52:26   And there are lots of reasons why that's a good idea

01:52:30   or a necessary idea.

01:52:31   So instead I do wonder if their solution is going to be,

01:52:35   we have a way for your device to talk to your phone

01:52:39   or maybe some other device that's nearby

01:52:42   and it's got a semantic index.

01:52:43   And that is based on what they currently do with that,

01:52:47   being able to link,

01:52:49   it's like personalized responses or whatever it's called.

01:52:51   It's linking it to your phone when you're on your home pod.

01:52:54   They may just have to do that and the watch the same way,

01:52:57   which is actually kind of a bummer for me

01:52:59   as a person who leaves with a cellular Apple watch,

01:53:01   because that is probably unlikely

01:53:04   that they're gonna let you make a cellular connection

01:53:06   back to your phone in order to get that data.

01:53:08   Probably not.

01:53:09   - That seems complicated. - Maybe, but probably not.

01:53:11   Yeah.

01:53:13   - Kind of similar-ish vibe.

01:53:14   Sebastian asks, "Do you think that the next base iPad,

01:53:18   so like the standard iPad, will get an M1 chip

01:53:21   so that it could use Apple intelligence?"

01:53:23   - This is almost like a prediction.

01:53:28   The next base iPad?

01:53:31   I'm gonna say no.

01:53:32   - Interesting.

01:53:33   - I feel like the base iPad is gonna take time

01:53:37   to get to that.

01:53:38   It's meant to be cheap.

01:53:39   Like, I don't know.

01:53:41   I feel like it'll get there,

01:53:43   but I'm not sure I would say it'll get there next time

01:53:46   because it's meant to be cheap.

01:53:48   My prediction is I don't think Apple will ship any product

01:53:53   in the supported product lines for Apple intelligence

01:53:58   that can't support it.

01:53:59   So no Mac, no iPhone, no iPhone, no iPad.

01:54:02   - So everything that is in a line that supports it

01:54:06   will have to support it.

01:54:07   - That's what I think.

01:54:07   - So that means, so there are a couple options.

01:54:10   They could put an M1 in it,

01:54:15   or they could put like an A18 in it in a year or two.

01:54:20   - Yep.

01:54:21   - Right, presumably the A18 that's coming,

01:54:24   'cause it won't be the 17 Pro

01:54:25   because it's on the old process.

01:54:27   They can put an A18 in it, but they could.

01:54:29   They could put an M1 or an M2 in the base iPad.

01:54:32   The question is next, but you're right.

01:54:35   Maybe they just won't do another.

01:54:36   They just updated the base, or no,

01:54:38   they've still got the 10th generation, right?

01:54:41   They just dropped it?

01:54:42   - Yeah. - Dropped the ninth?

01:54:43   - Yeah.

01:54:45   Anyway. - The long button one.

01:54:47   - Yeah, right.

01:54:48   So I could see your point, which is

01:54:53   if we're not gonna update it

01:54:54   until it supports Apple intelligence,

01:54:55   we just won't update it.

01:54:56   But I don't think it's gonna be like, I don't know.

01:55:00   If they can get the price down.

01:55:03   - I just think there's like a strategy tax to it all, really.

01:55:07   Where I just imagine now it's like, oh, well,

01:55:11   that we were gonna plan to update it in two years,

01:55:13   or like say, like the iPad mini or something.

01:55:15   It's like, we're now actually gonna have to eat

01:55:17   a little bit of margin on this

01:55:18   because it should have this processor in it

01:55:21   so it can do the thing.

01:55:22   - And let's be serious.

01:55:23   What's really gonna happen is that they are going

01:55:25   to release a new base iPad, but it's gonna cost $100

01:55:29   or $150 more than the current base iPad,

01:55:31   which is gonna just get discounted.

01:55:33   And the old model won't support Apple intelligence,

01:55:35   but there will be a new one,

01:55:36   and it'll probably have an M1 or an M2 in it.

01:55:39   And then you'll have to wait two years for that one

01:55:42   to come down in price and actually be the base model.

01:55:44   'Cause that's how they do everything these days.

01:55:46   But the new one will be, will support it.

01:55:48   It'll just be too expensive

01:55:49   for most of the base model purchasers.

01:55:51   And that's just, like you said, that's the tax

01:55:54   on Apple changing to this approach is they're gonna have

01:55:57   to make that one expensive for a while.

01:56:00   - And Mark writes in and says,

01:56:02   with the Vision Pro expanding to other countries soon,

01:56:04   I wanted to get your opinion

01:56:05   on which storage capacity to go for.

01:56:08   I don't know my exact use case at the moment,

01:56:10   but I expect it will be largely entertainment

01:56:12   and using my Mac screen in VR.

01:56:16   - Well, I'm at the base level and it's not a problem.

01:56:18   And I looked at it the other day

01:56:20   and it's not even remotely close to filling.

01:56:22   So unless you're somebody who is going to travel extensively

01:56:27   and needs to load up an enormous amount of like movies

01:56:31   to watch on the plane, I don't think it's gonna be an issue.

01:56:34   - So I completely agree with you,

01:56:37   but I have a 512 gigabyte 'cause I didn't know

01:56:40   what it would be used for.

01:56:42   And similarly, - None of us did.

01:56:43   - And I can't imagine right now what you would need it for.

01:56:46   I think 256 gigabytes is enough,

01:56:49   but I think there is a possibility

01:56:51   you might want to future group a little bit

01:56:53   to go with the 512.

01:56:54   But as of everything we know right now about the Vision Pro,

01:56:58   you do not need more than the base storage.

01:57:01   But my thinking is let's imagine this product's still

01:57:04   in its current incarnation for the next few years.

01:57:08   I feel like I have no idea where technology's going

01:57:10   in the next few years now.

01:57:12   And you're already like three and a half thousand dollars in.

01:57:17   Maybe you just go a little bit more future.

01:57:21   That's why I did it.

01:57:22   And that's why I did it.

01:57:24   I don't know what I'm gonna use this for.

01:57:25   I don't know why.

01:57:26   So let me just go with the middle one.

01:57:28   And we're already so far in the hole on this one.

01:57:31   I may as well just go a little bit more,

01:57:33   but I will also agree with Jason.

01:57:35   I'm using basically none of the storage space

01:57:39   on my Vision Pro and it's totally fine.

01:57:42   So I think you're good for 256,

01:57:44   but if you're the type of person

01:57:46   who doesn't mind future proofing for a little bit extra,

01:57:48   then I would just go with the 512.

01:57:51   - Yeah, I'm a big believer of,

01:57:53   if you wanna be a Vision Pro astronaut, do it,

01:57:59   but just don't spend the money.

01:58:03   Buy the cheapest one.

01:58:04   I bought the cheapest one.

01:58:05   I didn't buy the case.

01:58:07   The only thing I splurged on is I did buy one

01:58:10   of those 3D printed things that lets me do two

01:58:14   of the adjustable straps, the Solo Top strap.

01:58:17   - I look forward to joining Solo Top land

01:58:20   because right now it's just too complicated

01:58:23   for me to buy a second Solo strap, right?

01:58:25   - Oh yeah, right.

01:58:26   Yeah, when it comes to the UK, you can do it.

01:58:27   It's great.

01:58:28   - But in a few weeks, I'll be able to do that.

01:58:30   - I understand why Apple didn't do it

01:58:31   because those things, those straps have to cost a fortune

01:58:34   to make too, but it's the best actually.

01:58:38   As ridiculous as it is to have two of those knitted bands,

01:58:42   having the adjustable knitted bands,

01:58:44   it just feels a lot better.

01:58:45   It's really nice.

01:58:46   - If you would like to send us in your feedback,

01:58:49   your followup, your questions,

01:58:50   you can go to upgradefeedback.com.

01:58:53   I wanted to thank, we got a lot of great feedback

01:58:55   about last week's episode.

01:58:56   A lot of people wrote in, gave us really nice messages.

01:59:00   I appreciate most of the people that said,

01:59:01   I don't agree with you,

01:59:03   but I love the way that you spoke about it.

01:59:04   So thank you to everybody who sent in their lovely feedback

01:59:07   to us about last week's episode.

01:59:09   You could check out Jason's work over at sixcolors.com

01:59:12   and hear his shows at the incomparable.com

01:59:14   and here on Relay FM.

01:59:15   You can listen to me here on Relay FM too

01:59:17   and check out my work over at cortexbrand.com.

01:59:20   You can find Jason online.

01:59:21   He is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L.

01:59:24   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:59:27   You can watch video clips of the show

01:59:29   on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube,

01:59:30   but we are @upgraderelay.

01:59:32   Thank you to our members and supporters of Upgrade Plus.

01:59:35   This week, we're going to be talking about

01:59:36   various power related circumstances occurring in LA.

01:59:40   - Electricity, electricity.

01:59:42   - It's going to be an electrifying Upgrade Plus.

01:59:45   Go to upgradeplus.com.

01:59:45   - Oh man, so electric.

01:59:47   - Thank you to all of you.

01:59:48   - You feel the electricity building.

01:59:50   - Thank you to Ladder, KRCS, Vitaly and Squarespace

01:59:55   for their support of this show.

01:59:56   But most of all, thank you for listening.

01:59:58   Until next time, say goodbye Jason Snow.

02:00:01   - Goodbye Mike Hurley.

02:00:02   (upbeat music)

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02:00:14   (upbeat music)

02:00:16   [ integrity ]