507: $10,495


00:00:00   [MUSIC]

00:00:07   Hello and welcome to Connected episode 507.

00:00:12   It's made possible by our sponsors, Squarespace, NetSuite, and Fitbod.

00:00:16   I am your keynote chairman, Stephen Hackett, and I am joined by your annual chairman, Mike Hurley.

00:00:22   Hello, there's been a change in the Connected rules.

00:00:26   This is a chairman-only podcast now.

00:00:28   If you're not a chairman, you don't get to be on the show, so there's no Federico this week.

00:00:36   And let's just hope that there's no more benchmen because otherwise this will just become a solo show for someone.

00:00:42   Yeah, solo cast. No, he's just off this week. That's all.

00:00:46   Yep. Send Federico your favorite chair-related imagery.

00:00:51   Okay. I like that. I like that a lot.

00:00:55   I'm wearing my tiny heads tee today.

00:00:58   It's a good t-shirt. We should sell it again.

00:01:01   Well, it's a shame that nobody else agrees.

00:01:05   I was thinking about it today. I was thinking about the betrayal and how I feel like I inevitably won the betrayal

00:01:12   on the account of the reason that I said we shouldn't have sold the t-shirt was because nobody bought it the first time,

00:01:18   and then the second time it still was not a successful t-shirt in the grand scheme of what our t-shirts have sold previously.

00:01:25   But it's a good t-shirt. I like it.

00:01:27   It's a fantastic design. It's just a shame that people don't agree.

00:01:31   Yeah. Well, you know, sometimes not everything can be a winner.

00:01:35   Maybe it will be like when we die, people will really like... then it will become a thing, you know?

00:01:42   Oh, right. Right.

00:01:44   Posthumously, it will become a successful t-shirt.

00:01:47   Could be.

00:01:47   But no one will be able to sell it, so it will just like appear on Redbubble or something.

00:01:52   Oh. That's what I want my legacy to be, stolen IP on Redbubble.

00:01:56   Mm-hmm.

00:01:57   Follow up, Mike.

00:02:00   Last time you suggested killing the Today View screen.

00:02:04   Yeah.

00:02:05   A lot of people didn't like that idea.

00:02:07   I don't like this categorization.

00:02:10   I didn't suggest killing it.

00:02:12   I just... my bet is that it will be killed.

00:02:15   It's not like I'm like, "Oh, you should..." Well, maybe I said that.

00:02:18   But maybe I did say you should get rid of it. But like whatever, you know? Get rid of it. I don't care. Kill it.

00:02:25   A lot of people like it. But which is whatever you want.

00:02:27   A lot of people like it. Well...

00:02:29   A lot of people like lots of things.

00:02:31   Wow.

00:02:31   You know, but it doesn't mean we should have them all.

00:02:33   And some people did point out that you can get to it without going to the home screen.

00:02:38   And that raised a question for me because...

00:02:43   I feel like this started... remember how like fast Touch ID 2 was?

00:02:46   And that you were just like below through the lock screen?

00:02:48   Mm-hmm.

00:02:49   And then your notifications were gone forever.

00:02:52   I don't... I like the Today View. I use it when my phone's unlocked.

00:02:56   I don't really use it from the lock screen.

00:02:59   What about you? Like for me, looking at my phone and swiping up is like one thing.

00:03:03   And I don't really ever deviate from that.

00:03:06   No, I don't use the Today View.

00:03:08   Is there anything in there?

00:03:09   Yeah, I mean there's widgets in there, but I very seldom use it because if I truly care about the widgets,

00:03:15   I'm going to put them on even my home screen on my second screen.

00:03:18   Mm-hmm.

00:03:18   Like there's stuff there.

00:03:19   You've just reminded me, by the way, to change a setting on my phone.

00:03:25   So I had someone recommend to me a long time ago to disable Control Center if your phone is locked.

00:03:34   Which is a setting that you can enable.

00:03:38   Like there are a bunch of things that you can enable like if your phone is locked.

00:03:42   So it's in Face ID and passcode.

00:03:44   And there's a whole set of things called Allow Access When Locked.

00:03:48   Control Center is one of them. Live activities.

00:03:51   Your favorite assistant.

00:03:54   Yeah, I need to turn off Today View and search from that and notification center.

00:03:59   That's a good idea.

00:04:00   You shouldn't need it, right?

00:04:02   What I will tell you, when you do this, you will realize that sometimes you are using Control Center

00:04:10   when your phone is locked because you'll swipe down and nothing happens.

00:04:13   Mm-hmm.

00:04:14   But I think that that is a fine thing to...

00:04:18   Like that is total...

00:04:19   That's a fine price to pay kind of thing.

00:04:22   Okay.

00:04:22   I think.

00:04:24   Now one of the options is Siri.

00:04:26   And I don't know if you turn this off.

00:04:29   If you can...

00:04:29   I guess you can't talk to Siri anymore if your phone is locked.

00:04:32   So maybe I wouldn't turn that one off.

00:04:35   Or maybe that'd be more important if Siri gets better in iOS 18.

00:04:39   Ew.

00:04:40   Have you seen, by the way, floating around...

00:04:42   I've seen this on Threads.

00:04:44   We're talking about Threads in the pre-show.

00:04:47   There's like a workaround that people have worked out right now to get the new Siri UI in the current beta.

00:04:53   Hmm.

00:04:54   Like it's buried in there and you've got to load some software...

00:04:57   You've got to do some weird stuff that I would never do.

00:05:01   It kind of feels akin to like jailbreaking, like maybe that kind of idea.

00:05:06   But the system is in the betas, but it's like flagged away.

00:05:11   Hmm.

00:05:12   You can do that.

00:05:12   But anyway, yeah.

00:05:13   A tip that I have is like go into Face ID and passcode and review those things.

00:05:19   And like think about like if you dropped your phone, what would you not want someone to access?

00:05:24   And I think Control Center and the Today View are a couple of things that would be pretty important there, you know?

00:05:31   Yeah.

00:05:32   Vince in Discord said, "Today View is where the large battery widget lives."

00:05:36   That's true.

00:05:38   I think that's probably almost universally in there.

00:05:41   All of these things can exist in other places.

00:05:43   Yeah.

00:05:44   It doesn't have to be in Today View.

00:05:45   That's the point that I'm making.

00:05:47   And I just think that as time goes on, they are going to remove that screen.

00:05:56   That's kind of what I'm getting at.

00:05:57   It just doesn't...

00:05:59   At your behest.

00:06:00   If all it is is a place for widgets, you can already put widgets everywhere.

00:06:06   So like why does that need to exist?

00:06:09   Like that needed to exist when we had the widgets that couldn't go on the home screen because they couldn't go anywhere else.

00:06:15   But now they're gone.

00:06:17   Like at what point do we need this thing called Today View?

00:06:21   Nothing else is there.

00:06:23   Like why is it even called Today View?

00:06:25   You know what I mean?

00:06:26   I just think it's going to go away.

00:06:28   The name is a leftover.

00:06:30   I mean, if you remember from the earlier versions of Notification Center, you would have like all missed in Today.

00:06:37   And I was like, I don't know, 9, 10, 11 sometime.

00:06:40   I do remember it used to...

00:06:43   Like in written out English, it was like, you have three appointments today.

00:06:48   The weather is 64 degrees.

00:06:50   Like it was very conversational in text.

00:06:53   There were some weird ideas in there.

00:06:54   So the name, it used to just be a tab in Notification Center.

00:06:58   And they sort of kept the name and have remixed it in a bunch of ways.

00:07:03   I do like there being a place for widgets that is not on a home screen.

00:07:09   Like I think it's nice to sort of have like, oh, I have these other ones that I don't need all the time, but they're kind of stashed over here.

00:07:16   And that I can scroll it so I can have a lot of things in Today View.

00:07:21   The scrolling is a nice, is good, is a good point.

00:07:23   Yeah.

00:07:25   All I'm saying is like, look, it doesn't bother me that it's there.

00:07:28   I'm not like, I'm not like a crusade going on.

00:07:31   My point is I just don't think it's long for this world.

00:07:35   Yeah.

00:07:36   I can definitely see that being true.

00:07:39   We have some more follow up about the Ricky's.

00:07:42   This is just like a hodgepodge of things.

00:07:45   So because every time we do the Ricky's, there's always follow up about the Ricky's.

00:07:49   This isn't even all of it.

00:07:50   I just picked some of it.

00:07:51   Yeah.

00:07:52   Brendan wrote in, Steven, how does it feel to have guessed the latest Mac OS version would be named after an SUV,

00:07:59   but you picked the wrong SUV.

00:08:02   So I picked Tahoe, which is a GM SUV here in the States.

00:08:09   And then what was Sequoia, which is a Toyota SUV.

00:08:12   So I had the right type of car, just the wrong one.

00:08:16   Okay.

00:08:17   I like Sequoia as a name, though.

00:08:18   So I know it's hard to spell.

00:08:21   No, I don't like it.

00:08:22   S-E-Q-Q.

00:08:24   I don't like saying it aloud and I don't like spelling it because I can't.

00:08:28   Sequoia.

00:08:29   But to be honest, though, I was thinking about this the other day.

00:08:32   I cannot remember the name of the current Mac OS.

00:08:37   Oh, it has gotten way more difficult with the California names.

00:08:40   Yeah.

00:08:41   So I feel like the one that we current that I'm currently using, I don't know its name.

00:08:46   And so it doesn't matter to me.

00:08:48   Is it Sonoma?

00:08:49   Okay.

00:08:50   It's not Monterey, which is what I thought it was.

00:08:52   When was Monterey?

00:08:53   Let me just read you.

00:08:55   Can I just read you the California names?

00:08:56   I would love that.

00:08:57   I would love that.

00:08:58   Can you read them in a Californian accent, though?

00:09:02   All my accents come out Australian, as we know.

00:09:04   I want you to just to give it a go.

00:09:06   What is a Californian accent?

00:09:08   Yo, dude.

00:09:09   Yeah, that's Australia.

00:09:11   You've got to do the turtle crush from Finding Nemo.

00:09:16   Just be him.

00:09:17   Dude, I sound like you're stoned the whole time.

00:09:19   Yeah, but that works.

00:09:20   That works.

00:09:22   Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan, Sierra, Hi Sierra, Mojave Catalina, Big Sur, Monterey, Ventura, Sonoma, Sequoia.

00:09:35   So, okay, Big Sur and there was one other in there.

00:09:39   Ventura, there is no world in which I would remember that they existed.

00:09:45   You could have made me sit here for an hour and I would never have remembered those names.

00:09:51   I wouldn't.

00:09:51   There is absolutely zero chance that I would have remembered either of those.

00:09:54   Yeah, I think it's two things.

00:09:59   I've thought a lot about why this is harder.

00:10:00   There were fewer cat names and they were less frequent, right?

00:10:05   They weren't doing an annual release.

00:10:07   So it's like easier to remember Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, Leopard, Snow Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion, but California names are annual and like every basically everyone knows what a

00:10:21   lion is.

00:10:22   A bunch of people didn't know Catalina was a real place.

00:10:25   So, and also like they would use like the spots of a leopard, right?

00:10:29   Like they it was easier to be like, here's this thing and like maybe it's easy if you're a Californian.

00:10:36   Like maybe it's easier.

00:10:37   I don't know.

00:10:37   If only we knew some Californians.

00:10:39   If only.

00:10:40   There are none.

00:10:41   There are none.

00:10:42   But I struggle with it.

00:10:44   Like I like the names.

00:10:45   I think they're perfectly fine names.

00:10:47   Right?

00:10:47   Yeah.

00:10:48   And like I like the naming scheme even.

00:10:50   It's just hard to remember.

00:10:51   Yeah.

00:10:52   It's like I have no criticism over the fact that they do it.

00:10:55   It is more just that I can't ever remember them.

00:10:58   And I also think that for Mac OS that's actually okay.

00:11:02   This would be more of a problem if it was iOS.

00:11:06   But I also realized recently that I really struggle especially around this time of year to remember the number of my iPhone.

00:11:14   Oh, like the like the iPhone 15.

00:11:18   Yeah.

00:11:19   Yes.

00:11:19   Same.

00:11:20   Is it currently 15?

00:11:22   It is.

00:11:22   Okay.

00:11:23   I thought it was 14.

00:11:24   On iOS 18.

00:11:25   You know coming.

00:11:26   It's well, it's a mess.

00:11:27   That's the thing.

00:11:28   But more at this time of year, we're thinking about the next one and there usually is as there has been rumors about the next one.

00:11:35   So like I'm already thinking about the iPhone 17 and I haven't even got the 16 yet.

00:11:40   So I also think it doesn't matter.

00:11:43   It's just like I have the iPhone Pro Max and it's the one that is the new one.

00:11:47   I think and yeah, we can all get on board with that.

00:11:50   I I do wish for unification across these things because like the version numbers in Mac OS are completely lost to me now.

00:11:57   Like this is Mac OS 14 Sonoma.

00:12:00   Like if someone said Mac OS 14 and be like I'd have to count on my hand or look it up in Mac tracker like I'm doing right now.

00:12:06   No, the right move is Samsung.

00:12:08   What Samsung does.

00:12:09   Yeah.

00:12:09   Where they use the year number.

00:12:10   Yep.

00:12:10   That's they crushed it.

00:12:12   That's the way to do it.

00:12:13   It's just the year number.

00:12:15   That's the way it should be done.

00:12:16   Yeah.

00:12:17   Kate in Discord says I like being on the SE because I don't need to know the numbers.

00:12:20   Yeah, because well or you can know the numbers but you only got to know like three of them three of them.

00:12:26   Yeah.

00:12:26   It's not so hard.

00:12:27   SE, SE2, SE3.

00:12:30   Yeah, it's great.

00:12:31   Really really long time.

00:12:32   Uh-huh.

00:12:33   Okay, so Mike not you wrote in.

00:12:37   Okay, so we have this issue where we keep tying in the Ricky's right and some people have some feedback about that.

00:12:46   So Mike wrote in have you considered adding a third round to the regular picks in the Ricky's most of the game end with the three hosts receiving their regular picks and not their risky.

00:12:55   So an extra regular pick may force less Cernot picks in the regular round.

00:13:00   Nope, it won't do it.

00:13:02   It makes it it won't do it.

00:13:04   I don't I think we would I don't think it would solve the tying issue and it would make the game solve the problem.

00:13:10   We would just tie with three points every time instead of two because the regular pick rounds they're relatively easy to get like and and three picks.

00:13:21   It's like for example me and Jason we do like 10 picks in the draft and like it comes down to one point being wrong.

00:13:28   Yeah.

00:13:28   Right, so like we're clued in enough and there are enough rumors now that it's the whole point of the risky pick is to stop the tying from happening.

00:13:37   But it we got too far with it.

00:13:40   I am still convinced we are on the right track.

00:13:43   We just need a little bit more time.

00:13:45   I would expect by this is I know this sounds so ridiculous, but by the next WWDC someone will win a Ricky's by a score like it that they will actually do it like it won't come down to tie-breaking because I was really close this last time.

00:14:07   Like very very close.

00:14:09   The closest I feel like I have been in a long time.

00:14:12   So I think we're getting there.

00:14:14   I think we're getting there.

00:14:15   I think we are too.

00:14:17   Justin wrote in.

00:14:19   I've had a potential rule idea in the event of a tie.

00:14:23   What if everyone's name went onto a wheel or into a hat and Justin's opinion at three-way coin flip is weird because it just gives the odd one out a chance to instant victory, which what is what happened last time where I I won.

00:14:36   I don't mind this.

00:14:38   I think this is interesting because if you put everybody's name is still an instant victory, but I think what they're saying is because two people have to pick one side of a coin and the third person has to pick the other right like it's always a one to two ratio and a hat makes it a one to one to one.

00:14:56   Relationship not at this doesn't make any sense to me because sometimes with the coin flip we go for another round which is very fun.

00:15:06   It goes to like a second round like all it's doing like and also it takes all agency away, right?

00:15:13   If I if it becomes a hundred percent chance, I don't like that like in the scenario.

00:15:19   We have the coin flip you at least got to choose if you wanted heads or tails and so you have agency in your decision and I'm thinking about this because if we tried to do this Federico would be so unhappy all the time.

00:15:30   Because he would just constantly say it was rigged.

00:15:34   At least this way with the coin flipping he has he has a decision to make and that decision is made and he has made it, you know, so this like that's the end of it.

00:15:44   I will say one of my favorite things just in my entire career is that we have dice by pcalc as a person in our CMS.

00:15:52   Exactly.

00:15:53   They're attached as a guest to those episodes.

00:15:56   Also for me James has put so much work into that mode.

00:16:00   Yeah, I could not really accept that.

00:16:03   Well, I will say that James has put a Cotton Bureau link to the hat by pcalc.

00:16:07   So that's for purchase.

00:16:09   We'd have to use a pcalc hat for the bigger.

00:16:12   No, I don't like this.

00:16:13   I like the coin flipping but I don't want to fix the coin flip.

00:16:18   I want to fix getting the game.

00:16:20   Yes, I want to make it that we don't need it every time rather than let's improve or change the way that the chance game is played.

00:16:29   Sure.

00:16:32   Someone named Jason Snell that can't be a real name had some flexi scoring feedback and basically wanting us to remove correct answers are worth one point and there's no penalty for wrong answers.

00:16:44   And then we say winner will be judged by the percentage of correct answers.

00:16:48   I get what he's saying, but I like that there.

00:16:54   There's no penalty in the game, but this penalty.

00:16:58   There's no point having that what sentence I think he's right.

00:17:02   We could fix it because it doesn't matter that correct answers are worth one point when we only pay attention to the percentage and also there is in fact a penalty for wrong answers.

00:17:11   It's money.

00:17:11   Okay, so I'm in the bill of flexi now.

00:17:15   Well, you know, we can't change it now.

00:17:17   You can only make a recommendation because as well we can't change it about that.

00:17:21   Oh, we can't change it about Federico.

00:17:22   Okay, so I'm going to copy this.

00:17:26   Well, just make a comment or something like we will get to this.

00:17:30   I don't know in September or whatever.

00:17:33   Yeah, but like the idea of like it should just say that the winner is judged by the percentage.

00:17:40   possible change.

00:17:42   Okay, the correct answers are worth one point and there's no penalties.

00:17:47   It's kind of superfluous.

00:17:49   Yeah statement at this point.

00:17:51   Okay, I've put that in the bill of flexi documents.

00:17:54   We can we can visit that in the future.

00:17:55   Okay, luckily it doesn't change the rules.

00:17:58   It just changes the way we describe the game.

00:18:00   Yeah, just clarification.

00:18:02   Mm-hmm.

00:18:03   It's just clarification.

00:18:05   Well now we've cleared out the follow-up pipes.

00:18:07   We should move on.

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00:20:15   Federico is gone so I have some headphones to review.

00:20:18   Perfect someone's going to do it someone has to do it this came from both the conversation in real life with some friends and from listener Nathan going back a few weeks where I was talking about using a single air pod while bike riding or walking and Nathan and real life friends.

00:20:39   Steven have you heard of bone connecting headphones these headphones leave your ears unstructured so you can hear your surroundings.

00:20:45   I have some shocks open run and wear them whenever I'm walking running or riding my bike and I love them.

00:20:52   Is this the company that used to sponsor ATP?

00:20:54   I think so.

00:20:56   Okay see this is interesting because I just recommended that Adina try these too because she sometimes she gets irritated if she wears air pods for too long but now she's wearing over ear Sony headphones and sometimes when I'm at home I come up the stairs and she jumps so hard she might hit the ceiling.

00:21:15   She can't tell that I'm around.

00:21:18   Yeah.

00:21:19   You've never seen somebody like jump the way that she does like her entire body move it's hilarious but it makes me feel bad for her.

00:21:26   So what you're saying is I need to startle her next time I see her.

00:21:29   You could try she might punch you but you can try.

00:21:32   I can outrun her maybe.

00:21:34   Yeah probably I'm actually pretty confident you could.

00:21:38   So having the.

00:21:43   Having taken all this feedback I ordered a pair of the shocks open run pro mini.

00:21:51   I don't know the top of my head the difference between the pro and the regular ones the side the mini just is about the.

00:21:59   The length of the band that goes around the back of your head and that's the one that fit me better so I've had these for about a week now and have used them on several workouts.

00:22:12   And I have some brief review.

00:22:15   If you just real quick before you do say that before we move on to your specific product they do like actual like AirPods style versions now.

00:22:25   I think they're pretty new.

00:22:26   They don't have the band around the middle it's just like you just put these things on but these look like they go on your ears more than the other ones do but interesting.

00:22:37   Yeah I think I think those are very new.

00:22:42   The open fit I think is what they call those yeah open fit and they also have open swim which are waterproof and those have built in storage you can sync music to them because Bluetooth usually doesn't work through water.

00:22:58   How did I say in your head though so they just like they go over your ear and go around the back your head I think it'd be okay but I feel like swimming like would they not get jostled off.

00:23:10   I don't know I mean I'm assuming not but that's really cool that they have those.

00:23:14   Yeah and they're like IP68 waterproof rating and they look pretty cool.

00:23:20   Well you'd certainly hope so.

00:23:21   We didn't bother with these ones gang we're just seeing how it goes.

00:23:26   Yeah it's super cool you can sync music to those because yeah if you're you know changes all your phones in a locker or something you don't have it poolside and even if you did Bluetooth and water don't really mix so.

00:23:38   Wow they also do one with a little microphone.

00:23:41   Lots of features.

00:23:43   You can have a zoom call.

00:23:44   Yeah lots of options.

00:23:46   Yeah and you can that's that's when you know you're a real professional you're like taking a conference call it's like oh I'm in the pool tell me about the quarterly numbers you know.

00:23:54   Don't think the pool and the there's a different products.

00:23:57   Well.

00:23:58   Well I mean not with that attitude you know.

00:24:01   That's right.

00:24:02   Yeah.

00:24:03   That is right.

00:24:05   So the the open run pros they go over your ear and they have a little pod that sits in front of your ear kind of on your high cheekbone I guess like where your jaw bone you know right in front of your ear and it vibrates and you can hear what's going on the effect of this is that I've never used a product like this but the effect of this is the soundstage to me feels like it's somewhere inside my skull.

00:24:32   It's very weird.

00:24:35   You don't really notice it listening to podcasts but listening to music the it just it's it takes a little getting used to it's not bad it's just different from anything I've I've tried before the sound quality is fine like these things don't sound incredible but they're vibrating through your skull and not you know directly firing sound into your ear canals.

00:24:57   But music is fine podcast or I think a little bit.

00:25:03   Um.

00:25:03   I guess we're fine I found that I needed like I'm sensing a theme here it's just I mean they don't sound incredible you're making a trade off for I can hear the world around me right yeah I did I did feel like I need to have podcast of louder than the music to make it clear but both are.

00:25:25   Fine the call my quality is not good like I called somebody and they said I sounded like I was across the room so does it have a microphone or is it also using the bones it it does have a microphone I think.

00:25:41   Okay you need to get the one with the little expand expandable microphone yeah yeah dual noise cancelling mic for clear calls but it's just built in somewhere I guess.

00:25:53   And these are IP 55 water resistant which basically means you can like sweat but you don't you don't want to get the the ones that I have you don't want to get them wet so.

00:26:02   Right so yeah so comfort wise our glasses and that like I just feel like there's a lot going on over my ears with glasses and these.

00:26:12   But that would be true for like what are the beats that go over your ears the beats fit or is it on these the ones your wife uses yes but I don't know what they're called.

00:26:22   Okay because I mean their names are complicated yeah the beats branding is hard to keep up with but the beats Sequoia they.

00:26:29   They are that's no different than those sorts of headphones but totally fine like it once you get used to it they're pretty lightweight the frame is made of titanium and like they're kind of plastic and rubbery so they're they're not heavy at all.

00:26:45   And you can hear the world around you and so it's not something that I would wear you know if I was going to sit down and listen to some music but I think for.

00:26:55   Exercising out in the world this is a nice a nice alternative and one thing that I realized after the second or third time I use them was.

00:27:08   With AirPods at least if you get sweaty like it kind of feels gross after a while like maybe this is just me or TMI or something but it's like my ears feel hot and you know this is like.

00:27:19   You know yours are just open and and it seems also to me I don't know.

00:27:24   How true this actually is but as someone who is very mindful about his hearing I feel like this is a better alternative then.

00:27:37   Wearing AirPods at a at a higher volume right.

00:27:41   Yeah but some important follow up the open fit air they are not bone conduction.

00:27:48   Oh there are actual headphones.

00:27:51   But they're open though like so they're they kind of don't go in they like go on your ears and they they kind of have a speaker that plays into your ear but they don't it's that they're closer to headphones.

00:28:06   That's cool so it says open fit isn't a bone conduction headphone it uses direct pitch a brand new audio experience made for open fit it allows for premium audio quality that perfectly balances blah blah blah.

00:28:20   That's weird to me though like you're the bone conduction company and now they're not doing that but these are still open so you can hear but I guess it probably sound better but it will sound better.

00:28:31   Yeah and the bone conduction stuff but yeah interesting yeah so you think because you didn't I mean on like up until the very end of your little mini review that you didn't seem to keen on them but it sounds like you might use them instead of AirPods now when you're walking around.

00:28:47   I think the trade-off is worth it I think is like a standalone in isolation thing like this is not something I'm going to use sitting at my desk.

00:28:54   But I think on my bike the trade-offs are probably worth it to be able to hear more clearly around me.

00:29:01   Yeah especially on the bike but what about when you're walking?

00:29:04   I think the I think the walking could be like 50/50 AirPods or this I think both are fine and especially as I've talked about I'll just use one and switch it depending on what I'm doing.

00:29:17   I could tell you if I were walking like I mean like in a city city like downtown Chicago or something I would wear these way before I ever wore AirPods on like busy city streets.

00:29:28   You know you've been in my neighborhood like I live in a I live in the middle of the city but it's a suburban type neighborhood.

00:29:36   Walking I don't ever feel like is a huge safety issue I'm probably more mindful of it than I need to be but in a big city or definitely on the bike I think these are these are gonna stick around.

00:29:49   But they don't sound incredible because they're vibrating your bones.

00:29:53   Feels like maybe more podcast than music would be the goal for the bone conduction ones.

00:29:58   I think so. The spoken word maybe better than getting the crunchy mids and the tinny basses and the deep low highs.

00:30:06   You're looking forward to music.

00:30:09   Yeah you know the the response curve and the.

00:30:13   Did you consider equalizing the range?

00:30:18   Yeah well iOS doesn't have a bone conduction setting so.

00:30:22   Ah it's a shame.

00:30:23   It's a real shame.

00:30:24   You're gonna lose out in the soundstage?

00:30:27   I will say it it using a regular Bluetooth headphones I haven't done that in a long time since AirPods have come out.

00:30:33   The AirPods experience is really good like you just open them and they work right and.

00:30:38   Yeah.

00:30:38   This is like you gotta turn them on and you gotta pair them and the auto pairing is really fast and they have their own volume controls separate from the phone which is like not something AirPods have.

00:30:48   I guess AirPods Max do.

00:30:50   Why would you want that?

00:30:52   I think it just gives you a better or a bigger range because you can turn the headphones up and down and then also the phone up and down.

00:30:59   Or maybe it's just because these things are universal right they work with all phones maybe that's more important on the Android side I'm not sure.

00:31:06   AirPods Max only has its own audio control when it's plugged in via the cable.

00:31:14   Okay.

00:31:15   So when you're connected to an iPhone it controls the system volume.

00:31:19   Okay.

00:31:21   That makes sense.

00:31:22   So yeah not earth shattering in terms of sound quality but they are for a job right I think the job they do is important.

00:31:31   Is that shocksing to you?

00:31:35   No not really.

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00:33:18   The information is reporting that Apple are shifting focus away from a Vision Pro 2 towards a Vision product, a cheaper, lighter, pared down version of a VisionOS headset.

00:33:30   Apparently they are aiming for a $1,500 price tag which is $2,000 less than the current one.

00:33:38   Although they are apparently struggling to decide what exactly gets cut from the experience with a product aim to be on the market by the end of 2025.

00:33:50   What's your take on this? What's your initial feeling on this?

00:33:54   I think a lot of the Vision Pros issues in the market are price based.

00:34:03   I think a lot of it comes down to that $3,500 is a lot of money and that means the user base is small which means developers have a harder time justifying a big expensive development project to support it.

00:34:22   And it means that the media stuff also isn't there because the user base is small. If it is cheaper, more people will use it.

00:34:30   That doesn't fix all of the Vision Pros issues but it sure seems like it's the top of the list.

00:34:37   I think if Apple can remix this product into something that is noticeably more affordable, it is good for everybody. Good for Apple, good for users, good for developers.

00:34:50   I agree with your statement but I still think $1,500 is the same problem.

00:34:59   I do not feel like a $1,500 price tag is going to result in materially different sales to $3,500 in a way that would make the platform significantly more successful.

00:35:16   Yes, $1,500 is still expensive but it's MacBook iPad Pro territory not 16-inch MacBook Pro territory.

00:35:29   Right, but the price to make a difference is $500. That's the point. If they can't get this product down to the price of a Quest, it won't work.

00:35:45   Maybe.

00:35:46   I just feel like I am very aware of the fact that $1,500 is $2,000 less than $3,500. I know that, obviously.

00:35:56   Math notes told me right here.

00:36:00   I just don't think that the amount of people that are like, "Oh man, I would buy it if only it was $1,500" would be high enough to give them the critical mass that they want.

00:36:15   That's the problem. The problem is there aren't a lot of apps and excitement about this thing because they can't sell enough of them.

00:36:22   I personally am not convinced that $1,500 is that tipping point.

00:36:28   Because that's still a lot of money. That's more than an iPhone.

00:36:31   Well, not that much more than an iPhone.

00:36:35   But it's still more than an iPhone. And you know what iPhones have? Apps. It's more than an iPad.

00:36:43   iPads have apps. I just think that this is great. Get it down. But my feeling is don't expect that a $1,500 version of a vision headset is going to be the thing that "saves vision OS".

00:37:03   That's my read on it anyway. I just don't think that $1,500 in that market is low enough.

00:37:12   It may not be. To me though, looking at the Vision Pro, trying to figure out where $2,000 or to your point, I guess $3,000 worth of stuff is to take out is hard to work out for me.

00:37:29   I think there's some things we could talk about. Can they make it out of cheaper material that would also be lighter? That would be great.

00:37:37   But is…

00:37:41   I mean, I think they could use aluminium and glass. How much money does that cost? Does it cost $1,000? I don't think so.

00:37:48   Well, the other thing is if they get rid of the eyesight feature, which I think they would because I don't think that's meaningful in the way Apple thinks it is, then you don't need glass on the front.

00:38:01   You don't need the screen on the front. You don't need the processing for all that stuff.

00:38:04   So I don't know.

00:38:08   There's a good replacement for that, which is a similar kind of display that's on the HomePod, which is clearly a low quality display.

00:38:18   But it looks cool.

00:38:20   But it looks cool. I think that they will and I think should continue to have something on the front of the Vision, a Vision headset, which indicates that somebody is aware of you.

00:38:34   I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing.

00:38:38   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:40   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:42   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:44   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:46   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:48   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:50   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:52   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:54   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:56   I think that's a good thing.

00:38:58   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:00   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:03   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:04   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:06   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:08   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:10   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:12   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:14   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:16   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:18   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:20   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:22   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:24   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:26   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:28   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:30   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:32   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:33   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:35   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:37   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:39   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:41   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:43   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:45   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:47   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:49   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:51   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:53   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:55   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:57   I think that's a good thing.

00:39:59   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:01   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:02   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:04   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:06   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:08   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:10   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:12   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:14   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:16   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:18   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:20   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:22   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:24   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:26   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:28   I think that's a good thing.

00:40:30   If you reduce the quality of the experience,

00:40:33   I think that they fall down a little bit.

00:40:36   If it's lower resolution and the sensors aren't as good,

00:40:41   then what do you have?

00:40:44   What's left?

00:40:46   It's complicated.

00:40:48   It is complicated.

00:40:50   I think something else Apple has going for them,

00:40:53   it's not the three grand worth of price

00:40:56   maybe they need to find,

00:40:59   but technology generally does get cheaper over time.

00:41:02   And that in the long term will benefit them.

00:41:06   That doesn't help them in the next year or so,

00:41:08   probably that much.

00:41:10   Especially when you're looking at,

00:41:12   okay, well, the thing has the M2,

00:41:14   is that good enough?

00:41:16   Like one thing that's coming with Sequoia and Vision OS 2,

00:41:22   the like ultra widescreen Mac pass-through,

00:41:27   a lot of that processing is gonna take place on the Mac

00:41:29   because I assume the Vision Pro can't do it fast enough.

00:41:33   Okay, like even though you've got to move the ball forward,

00:41:36   some things will get cheaper, you can remove some things,

00:41:38   you can change things about the design,

00:41:40   and maybe all of that stuff adds up

00:41:42   to where they can get it down.

00:41:44   I guess it's not surprising

00:41:48   that they would want to do that, right?

00:41:50   And I think this story, a lot of people were like,

00:41:53   "Oh gosh, they're not doing Vision Pro 2."

00:41:56   And I think the Vision Pro is just gonna hang out

00:41:57   for a long time.

00:41:59   I don't think this product was ever going to be anything

00:42:01   in the near future that was an annual cycle type thing.

00:42:05   And if they do an error or whatever they call it

00:42:09   that's less expensive and cut down in some way,

00:42:12   then the Pro is hanging out there as the nice one

00:42:14   and then maybe they merge in the future,

00:42:16   maybe they don't.

00:42:18   I don't know if Apple even knows that yet, right?

00:42:20   Like is this going to be a two-tier platform

00:42:22   or does Apple look at what they're able to do

00:42:25   at a lower cost and say, "You know what?

00:42:26   "This is actually good enough."

00:42:28   And the market may say the same thing.

00:42:30   - I mean, I will say as somebody

00:42:33   who bought one of these things,

00:42:35   the idea that it would stick around for a few years

00:42:37   is fantastic. - Yeah.

00:42:39   - So I'm happy about that.

00:42:41   If the Vision Pro is just here for three years, four years,

00:42:45   that would be wonderful.

00:42:47   And the thing about getting cheaper over time,

00:42:53   my understanding of how this works is part of it

00:42:56   is because of volume.

00:42:58   - That does help, yeah. - Right?

00:43:00   And well, but they're not doing volume.

00:43:03   So I'm not sure how the technology

00:43:05   for the Vision headsets get cheaper over time

00:43:09   based on everything I think I know

00:43:11   about the way that technology gets cheaper.

00:43:13   - Yeah, well, right now it's a dual processor system, right?

00:43:16   You have the M2 and is it the R1?

00:43:20   - The R1, yeah.

00:43:22   - Is there a world, I just don't know,

00:43:24   is there a world where M5, M6, M7 comes down the line

00:43:29   and they bring in what the R1 does into that chip?

00:43:33   I guarantee you going from a dual processor

00:43:35   to a single processor system will bring the cost down.

00:43:38   Now, does that make sense for Apple

00:43:40   and Apple Silicon and their timeframes?

00:43:42   Who knows?

00:43:44   - But here's a question I have for you

00:43:46   'cause I don't understand how these things work.

00:43:48   All right, so let's imagine that you put

00:43:51   a M2 chip, does that not make the M chip more expensive?

00:43:53   - It may, but does it offset having two?

00:43:57   We just don't know, right?

00:43:59   These are all possibilities.

00:44:01   - But then doesn't that potentially increase

00:44:03   the cost of every M chip they make

00:44:05   and all of their products and it's wasted

00:44:07   because only the Vision Pro uses the stuff that's in the R

00:44:11   but yet you're putting them into iPads.

00:44:13   - Well, you could say that about the M4

00:44:15   and the iPad Pro, right?

00:44:17   Like, hey-o.

00:44:20   I will say, genuinely, that iPad feels powerful

00:44:24   when I use it.

00:44:26   It feels like it's steaming through everything I throw at.

00:44:31   - It's a swole iPad.

00:44:33   - I know that there's not necessarily

00:44:35   a lot of things to do with it,

00:44:37   but it does feel like stuff is happening fast on that product.

00:44:42   And maybe with Apple,

00:44:44   the Apple intelligence stuff will be really quick on it.

00:44:46   I don't see why it wouldn't be.

00:44:49   - Well, it sucks to me.

00:44:50   I feel like if a lot of it's happening on device,

00:44:52   I feel like the faster your processor,

00:44:54   the better you'll experience that.

00:44:56   - Yeah, yeah.

00:44:58   I mean, these are all open-ended questions, right,

00:45:00   that we don't know the answers to.

00:45:02   But I think our big point is

00:45:04   there's lots of things about the Vision Pro

00:45:06   that seem like they could be simplified

00:45:09   or change over time.

00:45:12   I think when they designed this product,

00:45:14   clearly it is at the edge of what's happening.

00:45:18   At the edge of what's doable for them

00:45:20   in terms of technology, right?

00:45:22   The Vision Pro feels like,

00:45:24   it feels very solid.

00:45:26   Don't hear what I'm not saying.

00:45:28   But you get the sense that it can't do

00:45:31   much more than it's doing, if that makes sense.

00:45:35   And...

00:45:37   - You know what, actually, I will agree with you

00:45:41   in the sense of how often I'm doing the things

00:45:44   that it should be doing,

00:45:47   when my eyes are getting a nice little breeze.

00:45:49   (laughing)

00:45:51   Like, I'm just in an environment with four apps open

00:45:54   and it's fine, but you know the fan is going.

00:45:58   - Right, or it's warm when you take it off.

00:46:00   - Depends on the apps that you're using.

00:46:02   - The thing is working hard.

00:46:04   - Which is fine, it's doing its job,

00:46:06   but it is doing some incredibly complicated,

00:46:09   it's doing probably the most complicated computer

00:46:12   I have ever used for what it is doing.

00:46:16   Just to exist, like it's idling must be madness.

00:46:21   - Yeah, because it's never really idling, right?

00:46:25   It's always doing pass through and all these things.

00:46:28   - Yeah, like just its base level of compute

00:46:31   has gotta be higher than my Mac.

00:46:33   Like just what it is looking for and handling at any moment.

00:46:38   Maybe as Vision OS gets better,

00:46:41   they won't need so much power, right?

00:46:45   And like as well, I think I heard someone say this

00:46:47   at some point, like the more data they gather

00:46:52   from the sensors, potentially they need less sensors

00:46:56   in the future 'cause they can build better models

00:46:58   for detecting the pinches and stuff like that.

00:47:02   Which would make sense, right?

00:47:04   Over time, the more data you have,

00:47:09   maybe the less hard you need to look for each gesture.

00:47:14   And look, I'm just gonna say again,

00:47:16   I am a big fan of the Vision Pro.

00:47:20   I was using the Vision Pro for like an hour today.

00:47:22   I was watching a Skillshare course and taking notes on it.

00:47:25   And it was fantastic.

00:47:27   I'm watching Aaron Draplin's Skillshare courses, by the way.

00:47:30   So good.

00:47:32   There was a video, I'm gonna put it in the show notes,

00:47:35   that they put on their YouTube channel

00:47:37   of him giving a tour of his office.

00:47:39   - I know what I'm doing, it's not for me.

00:47:41   - Yeah, and it's a fantastic video.

00:47:43   And then it made me think, it was perfect really

00:47:46   'cause they did exactly what it was supposed to do.

00:47:48   I watched the video and I was like,

00:47:50   maybe I should see what those courses are about.

00:47:55   And so here I am, I'm on the free trial

00:47:59   for Skillshare right now.

00:48:01   - There you go.

00:48:03   - So yeah, it's really good, it's a very good video.

00:48:05   I'll put it in the show notes, it's definitely worth watching.

00:48:07   And so then I was like watching,

00:48:09   I was taking some notes and stuff.

00:48:12   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:13   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:15   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:17   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:19   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:21   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:23   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:25   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:27   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:29   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:31   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:33   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:35   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:37   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:40   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:42   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:44   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:46   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:48   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:50   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:52   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:54   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:56   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:48:58   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:00   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:02   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:04   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:06   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:09   - And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:10   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:12   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:14   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:16   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:18   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:20   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:22   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:24   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:26   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:28   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:30   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:32   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:34   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:37   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:39   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:41   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:43   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:45   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:47   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:49   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:51   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:53   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:55   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:57   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:49:59   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:01   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:03   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:06   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:07   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:09   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:11   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:13   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:15   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:17   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:19   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:21   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:23   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:25   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:27   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:29   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:31   And I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this.

00:50:34   So they can just wait it out if they,

00:50:36   but they got to commit at the same time.

00:50:38   You can't just be like, we just won't bother.

00:50:40   You can't tv OS this, right?

00:50:42   You've got to like, right?

00:50:45   Because they put a lot of effort into the Apple TV

00:50:48   and then they just stopped.

00:50:50   - Yep.

00:50:52   - And the Apple TV is fine.

00:50:54   It's like fine, but it could be so much more.

00:50:56   But it's just whatever, it's just out there.

00:50:59   They can't do that to the Vision Pro, I think.

00:51:01   They want it to be successful.

00:51:02   And I think they have the opportunity

00:51:04   to make it successful, but it's just gonna take

00:51:06   a lot of effort.

00:51:09   But I also don't know if they're willing

00:51:11   to put all that effort in.

00:51:13   - Yeah, I mean, it is a multifaceted situation for them.

00:51:15   And I think Apple is still very dedicated to the platform.

00:51:21   I mean, if you look through the WWDC sessions,

00:51:26   there's a ton of people that are doing this.

00:51:30   There's a ton of stuff in there for Vision OS,

00:51:31   for developers and designers.

00:51:34   They are still very much engaged with this.

00:51:36   We're only six months in.

00:51:41   It's premature to call anything dead after six months.

00:51:43   And we're not saying that it is.

00:51:45   Apple's investing, but I do think the cost,

00:51:47   bring that down, I think it's as close

00:51:51   to a magic bullet for this as anything.

00:51:53   - Mm-hmm, I agree.

00:51:56   - Speaking of cost, Mike, I think it's a good idea

00:51:59   to give us a little bit of cost, Mike.

00:52:00   I have a quiz for you. - Yeah, fantastic.

00:52:02   - Which Mac is right for you?

00:52:04   - I would like us to both take this quiz together.

00:52:07   - Yes.

00:52:10   - So this is, what is this?

00:52:12   Is this just like on the buy a Mac page on apple.com?

00:52:14   - Yeah, yeah, if you go to apple.com/mac,

00:52:19   there's a link to it, yeah.

00:52:24   Help me choose, and then it goes to this quiz.

00:52:28   - Help me choose.

00:52:29   - All right, so first question.

00:52:31   Tell us, what will you use your Mac for?

00:52:33   And the options are essentials, everyday stuff,

00:52:36   and entertainment, I like stuff, that's the word there.

00:52:38   Work powering my profession, education,

00:52:41   taking my studies further, and creative hobbies,

00:52:43   making and creating away from work.

00:52:46   I think for me, it is essentials and work.

00:52:49   - I think essentials, work, and work.

00:52:55   - I think essentials, work, and creative hobbies for me.

00:52:56   - Okay, so I was stuck on this, right?

00:53:01   So creative hobbies, making and creating away from work.

00:53:03   Like, is there any creating that you do that isn't work?

00:53:08   - I mean, you know, I'd like to think that I go

00:53:11   and take pictures sometimes that aren't old Macs.

00:53:13   - I will use iOS apps for these things, right?

00:53:16   For me, I like to take pictures of photos,

00:53:20   sorry, pictures of photos, a lot of photos.

00:53:25   I like to take pictures of buildings

00:53:26   and just crank the saturation up and add in some film grain.

00:53:28   Like, that's my thing, but I don't do that on my Mac.

00:53:30   - Okay. - All right, so, all right, okay.

00:53:34   - Okay. - Question two.

00:53:36   What are your day-to-day essentials?

00:53:38   And there's a long list here.

00:53:40   Oh, no, it looks like it's a long list.

00:53:42   - Well, the list scrolls, which I didn't realize

00:53:44   the first time I did this.

00:53:46   - How does it scroll?

00:53:48   I can't scroll it. - I mean, you just scroll,

00:53:50   like, you just scroll down.

00:53:53   It's really bad.

00:53:54   It's like an iframe they jammed in here.

00:53:56   - I can't get it to scroll.

00:53:58   - Are you on the Mac? - Yeah.

00:54:00   - Huh, you scroll like when you're on the gray background.

00:54:02   'Cause it cuts off after streaming movies and music,

00:54:04   but there's more under there.

00:54:06   It's not scrolling.

00:54:08   Do you have content blockers turned on?

00:54:10   - I do. - Yeah, I would turn that off.

00:54:12   - But I've whitelisted apple.com.

00:54:15   - Huh, I don't know. - Let me see if that does it.

00:54:18   Hold on, let me see if it does.

00:54:20   - Well, you're gonna end up with a Mac Mini

00:54:22   and this website is full. - I know, it's gonna be sad.

00:54:24   Yeah, now it works, now it works.

00:54:27   - Okay, so day-to-day essentials.

00:54:30   I'll read them and then we say yes or no, okay?

00:54:32   - I just wanna stay for the record

00:54:34   'cause I put get myself on record.

00:54:36   I actually don't block ads.

00:54:38   I block things like this.

00:54:40   I don't have ad blocking turned on for any website.

00:54:42   I block pop-ups and weird things and autoplay videos

00:54:47   and comments.

00:54:51   I actually do block comments.

00:54:52   So that's what I do.

00:54:54   I also block, the main reason that I use an ad blocker

00:54:57   or like a blocker is I wanted to block myself

00:55:00   from going to websites that made me feel bad.

00:55:02   - Okay.

00:55:05   - So it stops me. - Like the bank.

00:55:07   - So like certain subreddits more than anything else.

00:55:10   All right, so carrying on. - Like r/linustechtips.

00:55:14   You don't wanna go there?

00:55:16   - There's no comments, all right?

00:55:18   But it's just that thing of like I go to a subreddit

00:55:20   and then the thing pops up and I'm like,

00:55:21   "Oh yeah, don't go there."

00:55:23   All right, so what are your day-to-day essentials?

00:55:25   - I do browse online.

00:55:27   - I do browse online.

00:55:29   - Who doesn't really at this point?

00:55:31   - I don't know, man.

00:55:33   - Social media.

00:55:35   - Yep.

00:55:37   - Emails. - Emails, yep.

00:55:39   Video chatting, yeah, I guess.

00:55:41   - On a Mac, yeah, I guess.

00:55:43   Some, I guess for work.

00:55:45   - That's where I do all of my Zoom calls.

00:55:47   What are you talking about?

00:55:49   - Like YouTube accounts, I guess?

00:55:51   - Yeah, yeah, I always forget YouTube,

00:55:53   but yes, all the time.

00:55:55   Gaming? - No one does that on the Mac.

00:55:57   - Multitasking across apps.

00:55:59   - I do do that.

00:56:01   - I have been known to do it.

00:56:03   And other, I guess other, I don't know what it will be,

00:56:05   but there's definitely something in here

00:56:07   that they haven't told me.

00:56:09   - I have a question.

00:56:11   What Mac does it recommend if you don't multitask?

00:56:13   - Did you just get an iPad?

00:56:15   - What Mac is right for me?

00:56:18   - I guess at that point,

00:56:19   you're just gonna be told MacBook Air, right?

00:56:21   Like I feel like if you don't multitask,

00:56:23   it's just gonna tell you get a MacBook Air, like always.

00:56:25   - Okay.

00:56:27   - Okay, so moving on.

00:56:29   So I haven't done this yet, and don't ask my question yet,

00:56:31   but the thing I'm really intrigued about

00:56:33   is if they actually ask me any form factor questions.

00:56:35   At the moment, I'm getting the sense

00:56:38   it's just gonna ask me what I do on my Mac,

00:56:40   but like, it can't just tell me like,

00:56:42   "Oh, get a Mac Studio."

00:56:44   We'll find out, we'll find out.

00:56:47   - Let's see.

00:56:48   - What sort of things do you do at work?

00:56:50   Creating documents, yes.

00:56:52   Planning, organizing.

00:56:54   I have been known to do both.

00:56:56   - That's a common spot example, come on.

00:56:58   - I'm gonna say yes for design,

00:57:00   even though I like the iPad more for that,

00:57:02   but I deal with like PDFs and stuff.

00:57:04   Yeah, Photoshop files, yeah, yeah.

00:57:06   Photography and image editing, no, not for me.

00:57:08   - I do, yes.

00:57:10   - Audio production, yay!

00:57:12   Come on, let's go!

00:57:14   - Video production.

00:57:16   - Video production, I mean, if I do any.

00:57:17   - It's on the Mac, sure.

00:57:20   - Yeah.

00:57:22   - What about coding, computing?

00:57:24   - I mean, I do computing.

00:57:26   - Me too.

00:57:28   - I mean, what does that mean, what is computing?

00:57:30   - I don't know, I'm gonna say yes.

00:57:32   - I guess I do do some computing.

00:57:34   3D design, no, other, is there any more?

00:57:36   I'm gonna say yeah for other.

00:57:38   - Yeah.

00:57:40   - 'Cause you know what isn't here, Stephen?

00:57:42   Blogging, there's no blogging on there.

00:57:45   - That's creating documents.

00:57:46   - Is it?

00:57:48   - It's audio production, you're screaming into the void.

00:57:50   - Almost finished, final three questions.

00:57:52   - So you checked coding, computing, interesting.

00:57:54   - Yeah, I did, yeah.

00:57:56   - Yeah, I've actually started.

00:57:58   - And where will you use your Mac?

00:58:00   - Oh, I got a different question next.

00:58:02   - Oh.

00:58:05   - I got, how do you get creative outside of work?

00:58:07   Oh, because I told it I do stuff outside of work, okay.

00:58:10   - Yeah.

00:58:12   - Editing photos outside of work.

00:58:14   Editing photos, I think that's basically it.

00:58:15   The other options are creating content, that's work.

00:58:18   Designing sketching, I don't do that for fun.

00:58:20   Coding, I don't do that for fun.

00:58:22   Making music, I don't do that.

00:58:24   Making videos, they're for work.

00:58:26   I'm gonna say editing photos and other.

00:58:28   Press okay, okay.

00:58:31   Now, almost finished, final three questions.

00:58:33   Where will you use your Mac?

00:58:37   - I don't like this question, I don't like it.

00:58:39   It's always inefficient, I don't like it.

00:58:41   I don't like it.

00:58:43   It's always in a fixed place like my desk

00:58:44   or around my home out and about on long journeys.

00:58:46   - This is the do we give you a desktop or a laptop question.

00:58:49   - See, I don't like this question

00:58:53   because the answer is yes to both of them.

00:58:55   - Right.

00:58:59   - Okay, I tell you what I'm gonna do.

00:59:01   I'm gonna take this quiz now

00:59:03   as if it is actually the next Mac that I wanna buy.

00:59:05   - Okay.

00:59:08   - And if I'm answering it for that,

00:59:10   it's always in a fixed place.

00:59:12   - Yeah, 'cause you're looking for a desktop next.

00:59:13   - Yeah.

00:59:15   - Well, I have given up the desktop life

00:59:17   and I'm using laptops now

00:59:19   and so I'm gonna say around my home and out and about.

00:59:21   - Yeah, but you see, there is no answer

00:59:26   for like at work here, which is weird.

00:59:29   - Yeah.

00:59:31   - It's either at your home or out and about.

00:59:33   - Yeah, this is a little-- - That's weird.

00:59:35   - This is weird, they've gone weird here.

00:59:37   All right, so okay, see who comes next.

00:59:39   Will you plug in any of the following?

00:59:41   Do you get that too?

00:59:42   - Yes.

00:59:44   - Hmm.

00:59:46   - Displays.

00:59:48   - Yes. - Yes.

00:59:50   - External storage, yes.

00:59:52   Meteor equipment, including microphones, little microphone.

00:59:54   - Yeah. - Yes, I do do that.

00:59:56   Other accessories, yes. - Yes.

00:59:58   - Okay.

01:00:00   - Okay.

01:00:02   - Lastly, do you have a budget in mind?

01:00:04   - Ooh, wow, this is really finely cut.

01:00:06   So I see up to 1,000, up to 1,250,

01:00:08   up to 1,500, up to 2,000.

01:00:10   - Yeah.

01:00:11   - Up to 2,500, up to 3,000, up to 3,500, 3,500 and over.

01:00:13   I wonder what my current MacBook Pro costs.

01:00:18   - Asking me a budget is weird

01:00:21   because I don't know what I want yet.

01:00:24   - Yeah, but I think a lot of people have a hard number

01:00:26   when they go shopping for these sorts of things.

01:00:29   - But I could imagine that it's like the Mac is three grand

01:00:31   or it's like 3,100 if I add more RAM.

01:00:39   And then I'd be like, oh, I'll get more RAM.

01:00:40   - Yeah, maybe.

01:00:42   - But I'm gonna say up to $3,000 is what I'm gonna say.

01:00:44   I don't think I would want to spend more than that.

01:00:49   - Yeah. - But I also have not priced out

01:00:51   my ideal Mac Studio yet, so I have absolutely no idea.

01:00:53   - I'll say, I was trying to see how much I spent

01:00:55   on my current MacBook Pro because it has the eight terabytes

01:00:58   and that really made it expensive.

01:01:01   - A million dollars.

01:01:03   - Yeah, probably.

01:01:05   I'm trying to find it in my email.

01:01:08   - But seemingly you should just pick 3,500 and over.

01:01:09   You should just do that because let's be honest

01:01:13   about what that computer probably cost you

01:01:15   and it was probably over $3,500.

01:01:17   - It probably was, okay, I'll click that.

01:01:19   Okay, okay. - I'm gonna do up to 3,000.

01:01:21   - Finding your perfect matches.

01:01:23   - Finding my perfect matches.

01:01:25   - Is this what Hinge is like?

01:01:27   - Mac Studio.

01:01:29   Oh, it also did offer me a MacBook Pro though.

01:01:31   - I got two 16-inch MacBook Pro configurations.

01:01:37   - Okay. - One M3 Max,

01:01:38   48 gigabytes of memory, one terabyte SSD

01:01:41   and then the same thing but with 36 gigabytes of memory.

01:01:45   So $4,000 or $3,500.

01:01:48   - So for up to $3,000, I got my top choice

01:01:52   is a Mac Studio with an M2 Max with 32 gigs of memory

01:01:55   and 512 gigabyte SSD, that doesn't seem right.

01:01:59   - No. - Because it's only two grand.

01:02:02   Surely I could have increased the storage space.

01:02:06   (both laughing)

01:02:07   Where's that other $1,000 gonna go?

01:02:09   - I don't know. - That's weird.

01:02:11   I'm gonna come back to that in a second.

01:02:13   Then I got MacBook Pro, M3 Pro with 36 gigs of memory

01:02:15   and 512 gigabytes SSD for 2,900.

01:02:19   - The 14-inch? - Or 16-inch.

01:02:21   Well, I said it was at my desk, right?

01:02:25   So they're giving me maximum power.

01:02:27   - I guess so, yeah. - With a little bit

01:02:29   of flexibility, which makes sense.

01:02:31   Or if I have a flexible budget for 3,500,

01:02:35   I could have a M2 Max with 36 gigs of memory

01:02:36   and a terabyte SSD.

01:02:38   So I'm going to the Mac Studio now

01:02:41   and it says, so I've got like M2 Max, 32 gigs of memory.

01:02:43   Yeah, see, I could put like two terabytes more storage

01:02:48   in here and I'm still under the $3,000 budget.

01:02:51   - Hmm.

01:02:54   Weird.

01:02:56   - This is cool though, I like this.

01:02:58   I do like this.

01:03:00   But I think what I would do is probably

01:03:04   I would put the base M2 Max, which would be an M4 Max,

01:03:05   which is 12-core CPU, 30-core GPU, 16-core neural engine,

01:03:09   64 gigabytes of RAM, two terabytes SSD

01:03:13   and then I'm bang on three grand.

01:03:16   So come on, Apple, you could price me up a little bit.

01:03:18   You gave me a $1,000 discount.

01:03:20   - Mm-hmm.

01:03:22   - But also, 512 gigabyte SSD is just not enough.

01:03:24   - No, it's not. - It really isn't.

01:03:26   And so it's very weird that they would suggest that

01:03:28   when I have a $1,000 headroom budget-wise.

01:03:33   But this is cool though, I like this.

01:03:34   I think that this is really good

01:03:36   considering how many Macs there are

01:03:38   and how complicated I think the Mac lineup is

01:03:40   to somebody who's new.

01:03:43   - Yeah. - What do you go for, you know?

01:03:45   - Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool.

01:03:47   - I saw a lot of people talking about this

01:03:49   and saying that no matter what they did,

01:03:51   they could not get a Mac Pro.

01:03:53   - I tried that, I tried it last night

01:03:55   and it would not recommend the Mac Pro to me.

01:03:58   And I owned one.

01:04:00   - But there's a really good reason for this.

01:04:02   It's not a very good computer anymore.

01:04:03   - It's not for anyone. - No.

01:04:05   - What you want is a Mac Studio, they already make it.

01:04:07   - I mean, if there was a question,

01:04:09   do you need wheels on your computer?

01:04:11   - Yeah, yeah.

01:04:13   Do you need extra space in your computer

01:04:15   that you can't put anything in?

01:04:17   Because oh boy, do we have the computer for you.

01:04:21   - Do we ever.

01:04:23   - Would you like the idea that you could possibly

01:04:26   use graphics cards that we don't support?

01:04:28   - Mm-hmm.

01:04:31   - Have I got the computer just for you?

01:04:32   Would you like to rack mount your computer?

01:04:35   - I would.

01:04:37   - Then again, I have the computer just for you.

01:04:39   - You know how sick it would be to have a rack

01:04:41   under my desk with a Mac Pro in there sideways?

01:04:43   - You know what, Steven?

01:04:45   It would be sick, you should do that.

01:04:47   - It would be sick.

01:04:49   Well, the website didn't offer it to me.

01:04:51   - I would, there is nothing in the world

01:04:53   that I would love more than a scenario

01:04:55   in which we take that quiz and then you spend $7,500

01:04:57   on a rack mount and you're like,

01:05:00   "I'm gonna build a rack mounted Mac Pro real quick, let's see."

01:05:01   - It starts at $7,500.

01:05:05   - God.

01:05:08   - It's, pull that number out of nowhere.

01:05:10   - All right.

01:05:12   - So $7,500, that's over 24 core CPU,

01:05:14   60 core GPU, 32 core neural engine.

01:05:16   You don't need to increase that, right?

01:05:18   - No.

01:05:20   - 64 gigs of memory, do you want more than that?

01:05:22   - I'm gonna go to 128.

01:05:24   - Okay, and then eight terabyte SSD.

01:05:26   - Uh-huh.

01:05:29   I would like, I have a, I would like the track pad.

01:05:30   - Okay.

01:05:34   - I don't need any pre-insult software.

01:05:36   This computer is $10,549.

01:05:38   - Wonderful.

01:05:42   - Holy smokes.

01:05:44   - And you gotta just go to buy a rack,

01:05:46   how much could a rack be?

01:05:48   - I mean, after 10 grand.

01:05:50   - Yeah, it's a steal.

01:05:52   - It's a steal.

01:05:54   - You could put it into an Ikea Calax.

01:05:56   I mean, like it looks like a symbol of shelving system.

01:05:59   - Do you know how heavy the Mac Pro is?

01:06:00   I think it would collapse.

01:06:02   - Just put it in a small Calax right at the bottom

01:06:04   so it doesn't tip over.

01:06:06   - I tell you what, I would do, Mike.

01:06:08   I would make sure that that Calax was screwed

01:06:10   into the wall for safety.

01:06:12   - I don't think you'd need to worry about it.

01:06:14   - Unlike some people.

01:06:16   - It's so heavy that, I was thinking about you

01:06:18   when I was building this Calax,

01:06:20   'cause I can't screw it into the wall.

01:06:22   - Oh, you've got it behind you now, right?

01:06:24   - Yeah, but there's no wall behind that,

01:06:27   so you have to screw it too?

01:06:28   Yeah, and I was thinking about you.

01:06:30   - Apple calls it the Mac Pro Rack.

01:06:32   I hate that name.

01:06:34   - Yeah, they should call it the Rack Pro.

01:06:36   - The Rack Pro.

01:06:38   - It's sitting right there.

01:06:40   - Well, literally.

01:06:42   - But where does it say that?

01:06:44   'Cause I just see Mac Pro, Mac Pro.

01:06:46   - In the title of the tab.

01:06:48   - Oh yeah, Rack pound.

01:06:50   - 'Cause I put it in the show notes and it pulled it.

01:06:52   - Mac Pro Rack.

01:06:56   - Mac Pro Rack, by Mac Power.

01:06:57   - Rack power users.

01:07:00   - By Mac Pro Rack.

01:07:02   - This episode of Connected is brought to you by Fitbod.

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01:09:22   Our thanks to Fitbod for their support of the show

01:09:25   and Relay FM.

01:09:27   Okay, you've done a thing.

01:09:30   - Yeah, man.

01:09:32   - In honor of Federico not being here,

01:09:34   I reviewed headphones,

01:09:36   and you have returned to the multi-pad lifestyle.

01:09:38   (laughing)

01:09:40   - I've gone from an iPad Mini to two iPad Pros.

01:09:42   (sighing)

01:09:44   - What's going on?

01:09:47   - I'm gonna start off by saying

01:09:48   I am in love with the other iPad Pro.

01:09:51   It's so good.

01:09:53   It is, you know, like every now and then,

01:09:58   I feel like this happens.

01:10:01   We obviously love computers,

01:10:03   but sometimes a specific device comes along

01:10:06   and you're just in love with it, right?

01:10:08   I felt this way about the M2 MacBook Air.

01:10:10   I felt this way about the iPhone 12, I think.

01:10:14   That was the first one that got the flat sides.

01:10:16   I think, right?

01:10:17   It doesn't happen often, but it happens, right?

01:10:20   And I actually felt like I felt this way

01:10:22   about the iPad Mini when I first got the iPad,

01:10:25   like the newest iPad Mini.

01:10:27   And I feel this way about the 11-inch iPad Pro.

01:10:30   I, for everything I wanna use an iPad for,

01:10:33   it's so good.

01:10:35   Like, the screen is incredible.

01:10:37   I love watching things on it.

01:10:39   I love reading comics on it

01:10:41   'cause like the colors are so good.

01:10:43   It's so thin, it's so light,

01:10:45   which makes it so easy to use.

01:10:46   I am really enjoying the extra screen space

01:10:49   for the things that I'm using it on.

01:10:51   Like, it's actually come to be really good.

01:10:53   I just, I get real joy out of using it

01:10:55   because of how comfortable it is to use.

01:10:57   I have not had an iPad Pro

01:11:00   for a really, really, really long time.

01:11:02   Like, I have not used an iPad Pro before now

01:11:05   for like nearly four years.

01:11:10   Like, I stopped using my iPad Pro

01:11:14   and stopped using the iPad

01:11:15   and then moved to the iPad Mini.

01:11:17   Like, I had an iPad Air, yeah,

01:11:19   which was just like a testing device.

01:11:24   Like, I could put iPad OS on it or whatever.

01:11:26   And I tried to find various uses.

01:11:28   Like, I tried doing that thing that David does

01:11:30   and having like a second screen under my Mac,

01:11:32   but that didn't really last.

01:11:34   Like, you know, none of these things lasted.

01:11:36   But the iPad Pro, like, I've not used

01:11:38   with any, like, seriousness for a long time.

01:11:40   Like, my iPad Pro is not that good.

01:11:43   I've used it for a long time, like, multiple years now,

01:11:44   which is like the longest since it came out, right?

01:11:46   I always was on the iPad Pro

01:11:48   because I used to use an iPad Pro

01:11:50   as a laptop essentially, right?

01:11:52   That was like a big thing for me for a long time.

01:11:54   And I think, one, I had forgotten how good that can be

01:11:58   to use like a big iPad.

01:12:00   I use the Apple Pencil all the time

01:12:02   for like just navigating.

01:12:04   I've never used Hover.

01:12:06   Oh my God, using the web

01:12:08   with a Hover Apple Pencil is fantastic

01:12:12   because it's like having a cursor, right?

01:12:13   You can like hover over things and things show up.

01:12:15   Like, looking at charts in member form or whatever, right?

01:12:18   I can use the Apple Pencil Hover

01:12:22   and it shows me the numbers on the charts

01:12:24   and stuff like that.

01:12:26   Like, it's great.

01:12:28   And just like using a Hover Apple Pencil

01:12:30   to take notes and stuff is really nice

01:12:32   because you see it shows where you're gonna,

01:12:34   it actually shows a dot where you're gonna be.

01:12:36   So, like, all that stuff's really good.

01:12:38   And so because of this,

01:12:41   I was like, oh, this is like really good for design stuff,

01:12:45   which I had kind of forgotten about.

01:12:47   And I had been using my Mac

01:12:50   and I had been drawing things out on paper

01:12:52   and taking pictures of them

01:12:54   and sending them to the designer we use, a Cottex brand,

01:12:56   which is fine and it works, but it's not ideal always.

01:13:00   Like, sometimes it's really nice

01:13:02   to be able to draw a square

01:13:04   and the computer make it exactly square for me, you know?

01:13:06   Make all my lines straight and stuff like that.

01:13:08   - Yeah.

01:13:10   - So then I was finding, like, over the last few weeks

01:13:13   that I've been, 'cause I'm working on,

01:13:15   I'm in like a heavy design period right now

01:13:17   and on a couple of multiple new products

01:13:22   that are in different stages of development.

01:13:24   And so I've been bringing my iPad

01:13:26   to and from the studio every day

01:13:29   'cause I like using it at home.

01:13:31   Like, my iPad is now becoming the device.

01:13:33   It's replaced my iPad Mini as like,

01:13:35   it's the device I use most at home,

01:13:37   like more than my iPhone.

01:13:39   And so I was taking it backwards and forwards,

01:13:41   backwards and forwards, which was fine,

01:13:43   but I didn't really like needing to do that

01:13:45   'cause then it's two computers

01:13:47   that I'm taking backwards and forwards

01:13:49   in my backpack every day.

01:13:51   So my MacBook Air and an iPad.

01:13:53   And then also, it's like the 11-inch is great,

01:13:55   but you know what's better than 11?

01:13:57   13 for like, size for designing stuff.

01:14:01   Especially because if I wanna try and make things

01:14:03   that are true to life, like all of our product,

01:14:08   like the Sidekick notepad is bigger than the 11, right?

01:14:12   It's closer in size to the 13,

01:14:14   so like if I wanna try and get things that,

01:14:16   still not one-to-one scale but close enough.

01:14:18   - What apps are you using for this sort of work?

01:14:20   - It's a combination of Apple Notes I use a lot

01:14:25   'cause I just like Apple's drawing tools primarily.

01:14:32   I've tried out Good Notes a little bit,

01:14:36   but I still just prefer Apple's drawing tools.

01:14:39   It's Apple that I'm using most actually

01:14:43   to just do the drawings and then I'll take those drawings

01:14:45   and put them into other places like Notions

01:14:47   and then in Slack and stuff like that.

01:14:49   And obviously I've used Procreate a little bit

01:14:51   and I have Freeform on my iPad home screen,

01:14:56   which I feel like will be good to try out for something

01:14:59   like a design project, like to make some mood boards

01:15:01   and stuff.

01:15:03   I've yet to use that yet, but it's what I want to use.

01:15:05   - Its drawing tools are all the same as Apple Notes

01:15:07   with some additional goodies.

01:15:09   - Oh, that's very good.

01:15:11   I would love recommendations by the way,

01:15:13   if people could write in with recommendations

01:15:15   if you have different tools, different apps

01:15:17   that you like for this kind of work.

01:15:19   So basically, Cortex brand bought a 13-inch iPad Pro

01:15:24   that now is here at the studio and lives here at the studio

01:15:29   and I've set it up as fresh, which is nice.

01:15:33   All this has on it is stuff for this work.

01:15:36   And it's also come at a perfect time

01:15:38   because I've made all the changes to my studio

01:15:42   that I wanted to make.

01:15:44   So I've now rearranged stuff.

01:15:46   So my recording setup is different

01:15:48   and I have the Calix behind me, which has got stuff for video,

01:15:52   which also means I brought in a standing height table,

01:15:54   which I'm using for design.

01:15:56   And I have this table which is covered in the stuff

01:16:00   that I'm working on, which is great.

01:16:02   And it's a very tactile table, right?

01:16:03   I have like a cutting mat and I'm cutting things with paper

01:16:06   and I've got rulers and products

01:16:08   and I'm picking them up, putting them down,

01:16:10   picking them up, putting them down.

01:16:12   And the iPad fits so nicely in that mode of work for me

01:16:15   because it's a computer, which is substantial

01:16:18   and I'm picking it up, doing something with it,

01:16:20   putting it down, picking it up, taking a picture.

01:16:22   It feels very natural in that kind of working environment

01:16:28   for me, so it stays here.

01:16:31   No keyboards.

01:16:32   I am personally not an iPad keyboard believer

01:16:36   because this is not whatever I want.

01:16:38   It doubles the weight of the iPad.

01:16:40   It's harder to put it into the arrangements

01:16:43   that I want for watching things.

01:16:45   For me, I just don't want it

01:16:47   because it's not the type of work that I'm doing.

01:16:49   And so yeah, I'm trying to use this 13-inch iPad Pro.

01:16:53   It's like a very focused computer.

01:16:58   Yesterday, I had someone send me a message and it was for relay stuff.

01:17:04   I signed into relay slack there

01:17:07   and it meant I had to go and use Google Sheets

01:17:10   and I didn't have Google Sheets on the iPad,

01:17:12   so I thought about downloading it and I was like, "No?"

01:17:14   And I got up and I walked to my other desk

01:17:16   and I opened Google Sheets on my Mac and did it there.

01:17:18   It's like I'm trying to keep this as much as it can be

01:17:21   like it is for the work that is done on this table

01:17:27   and similarly, tomorrow, I'm going to a meeting with one of our manufacturers

01:17:33   and I'm going to take that iPad with me

01:17:36   because it's got all of the stuff on it

01:17:38   in the way that makes sense to me for that work.

01:17:43   So I'm just going to put it in my bag and I'll take it,

01:17:45   go to the meeting, come back here tomorrow.

01:17:47   So I'm trying to make it not just a device that is for one location

01:17:52   but a device that is for one type of work

01:17:56   and I feel like the iPad Pro is the best tool for that work

01:18:01   in the same way that I am talking to you right now on a Mac

01:18:05   that I only use for audio production.

01:18:08   So this Mac is set up slightly differently to the Mac that I use.

01:18:14   I very much like devices that have purpose

01:18:19   and so yeah, I'm really happy with this.

01:18:22   It's wild for me to return to the multi-pad lifestyle.

01:18:25   It is.

01:18:26   I'm happy about the fact that looking at the way that the iPad Pro has been

01:18:30   over the last few years that I can have both of these things

01:18:33   and not need to replace them for like four years or longer

01:18:36   because if you're thinking about the last meaningful change

01:18:39   the iPad Pro actually happened in like 2018.

01:18:42   And I feel like I could hold these iPads for as long

01:18:46   but I'm loving it.

01:18:48   These devices are amazing and having them, both of these things

01:18:52   for the purposes that they are.

01:18:54   One is more entertainment focused and then one is more design work focused.

01:18:58   It's been great for me.

01:19:00   And the Discord for members, Emma, suggests you check out Concepts.

01:19:04   I definitely will.

01:19:06   They have scale and measurement tools.

01:19:08   I think they sponsor Mac stories.

01:19:11   Yeah, I think so.

01:19:13   You've become Apple's ideal customer now.

01:19:17   You just have a bunch of Apple products floating around

01:19:20   and you just move in between them.

01:19:23   If you're using continuity, boy, they would just love you.

01:19:26   I guess I probably do, right?

01:19:28   Yeah, but you know, I have this up in Notes on my iPad

01:19:31   and I come over to the Mac and it's there in the dock.

01:19:33   That sounds nice though.

01:19:35   You're living the life.

01:19:37   I think that this is a thing that Apple does and they do really well.

01:19:40   Like, you can use multiple devices and use them really well together.

01:19:46   I actually think that they design their products to work that way

01:19:52   but maybe other people don't.

01:19:53   Yeah, I think that's fair.

01:19:55   Well, congratulations on the corporate purchase.

01:19:59   I have one last thing I want to talk to you about before we go.

01:20:03   I know you don't want to do it, so I'm making you do it.

01:20:06   We're not going to talk about AI and Apple Intelligence.

01:20:10   I want to talk about talking about it.

01:20:13   And I feel like the passionate ones are a good audience

01:20:18   to have this conversation in front of.

01:20:21   So, I'm talking a lot about AI, right?

01:20:26   This week we did a big episode of Upgrade

01:20:31   where we were essentially just reading feedback and talking about it.

01:20:36   It was very good.

01:20:38   Thank you.

01:20:40   And then I also published Cortex and the YouTube comments are just popping off.

01:20:46   So, I feel like right now I'm in this fog of opinions around AI.

01:20:55   And I'm also surrounded by people who have various feelings about it all, right?

01:21:02   We spoke about it a little bit last week, but Federico and John and Max Stories

01:21:08   are really pushing hard against large language model training for creative work.

01:21:15   I feel like I have some friends, and I think I'm going to put you in this camp

01:21:19   and you can tell me if I'm wrong, who are mostly apathetic to the features.

01:21:25   Yeah, I think that's broadly okay to say.

01:21:29   I'm not talking about your feelings about AI, but just the features themselves.

01:21:34   You're kind of just like, whatever.

01:21:37   And Jason is very interested about a lot of the features.

01:21:40   And I feel like I kind of sit somewhere in the middle of a lot of these things.

01:21:44   And everybody has their own middles. I'm not trying to put anyone in boxes,

01:21:49   but at least for the things that people are talking about.

01:21:53   And what I am noticing is people have very strong opinions on this stuff.

01:22:01   And it's in every direction. I think people hear me say that and they're like,

01:22:06   "Yeah, everyone, I have a very strong opinion about this and everybody else has my strong opinion about this."

01:22:13   Listen, let me tell you, that's not the case.

01:22:15   There are strong opinions on all sides and there are strong opinions about other people's strong opinions.

01:22:22   I have people writing into me right now or leaving comments who can't believe

01:22:27   and they're so outraged at the fact that anyone might not like this stuff.

01:22:31   So people are angry. And then I'm also getting similar comments from people who can't believe that anybody would like it.

01:22:39   People have feelings about feelings.

01:22:42   And I feel like up until now, with the shows that we make, we have been able to kind of look at it, talk about it,

01:22:56   make observations about AI, but the fact that Apple wasn't in this space, it was just like,

01:23:04   "Oh, there's this thing, da da da da da, we move on."

01:23:09   But now Apple is in this camp and they're in it big time, right?

01:23:13   So I guess we have to start making choices and drawing lines.

01:23:20   Like, do we use the features? How much do we use them? What do we use them for?

01:23:27   Do we review these features? Do we talk about the features? If we like them, do we hype them up and say they're really good?

01:23:35   And then I have a bunch of other questions, which are, do we lose audience for this? Do we gain audience for this?

01:23:41   Do people care either way? Do we get tired of feedback? Does the type of feedback that we get change?

01:23:47   Does our relevancy as content creators change as a result of how we approach these subjects?

01:23:53   All of this is what I'm referring to in my mind right now, is like the AI fog.

01:23:59   There are all these questions and opinions out there and I don't know what to do about it, but I feel like we have like three months to work it out.

01:24:12   Maybe a little bit longer, actually. Maybe Apple's going to be gracious to us and give us a year.

01:24:17   But what is your initial feeling about this idea at least, this nebulous thing that I'm talking around?

01:24:28   No, I think it's definitely a thing. And that's what I was getting at a little bit last time.

01:24:32   I was like, it's okay that we can have conflicting, complicated opinions and we just all need some grace with each other.

01:24:39   Because look, having opinion about anything in technology that's cranked to 11 historically doesn't age well.

01:24:47   I think we've all who do this for a living have learned that, that our minds will change on things as things change.

01:24:57   And having an absolute stance on anything with few exceptions, generally that's not a long-term play that works out.

01:25:08   What I really enjoyed in hearing you say that was how you realized you were making an absolute stance and then realized that the internet…

01:25:18   But this is what it's like sometimes to create content.

01:25:21   It is.

01:25:23   If you make any kind of statement, you have to qualify it. And at the moment…

01:25:27   Which is ridiculous sometimes. I think everyone should just take a breath, first of all. Be like, this stuff is not going to kill us all. It's fine.

01:25:36   But people do have strong feelings about it. And yeah, I don't know how to approach that on the shows.

01:25:45   I think there's a path where we talk about the features and what they can do and like, hey, we've used them and we can talk about them.

01:25:57   But even that in this case feels like a landmine and I wish that it didn't.

01:26:02   My biggest wish is that people would just calm down because everyone's just amped up all the time now and that's not good for anybody.

01:26:09   Everyone will calm down. I guarantee you that.

01:26:14   I think that's a good idea.

01:26:15   Because you think about what it was like a year ago, it was worse than this. But it was just in different areas.

01:26:21   The more people use these features, the more people are going to start calming down.

01:26:29   And there will be some people that won't, but that's just with any technology change.

01:26:37   You said a minute ago about making statements in an age where I understand what you mean by that, but I know who I am and I make a lot of really strong statements about everything all the time.

01:26:49   But I don't care about that because I genuinely feel like if you can't accept that somebody might change their mind on something, I can't help you.

01:27:00   I can feel very strongly about something today and feel differently about it now. You can go back and listen to me talk about generative AI from October or November of 2021.

01:27:11   We did that doubleheader of Cortex, right?

01:27:14   Yeah, and it was kind of gloomy from what I remember.

01:27:18   I think one of the episodes is called something like "AI is making us into marionette puppets and we'll rule the world" which is something Grey said. Something along those lines.

01:27:34   My opinion has definitely softened. My opinion has softened because I use the tools, right? Me of then thought that I would never use them, but I use them because I see benefit in them.

01:27:48   I know that I'm going to use, and I look forward to using, some of the tools in Apple Intelligence.

01:27:55   Because some of the features that they have shown off I'm very intrigued about. But I'm able to draw my own personal line where I've been very clear on this.

01:28:05   I think the image generation stuff is terrible and they should use playgrounds specifically and they should not do it. They should not ship it.

01:28:11   So what you're describing there is nuance. And that's what gets lost in YouTube comments and angry emails and pieces of feedback that are too heated.

01:28:24   And how do we, I mean that is the question, right? How do we have nuance in these conversations when some people think that there is no room for nuance?

01:28:36   And like that, my friend, is a question much bigger than AI.

01:28:41   That is, and okay, to sound, whatever, that's Twitter's fault. That is short-form social media's fault.

01:28:55   It's social media's fault.

01:28:58   And you know, we used it as long as anybody else. And we have to, I think, or we should, I think, break free of that some. Because I actually, my personal stance is basically in line with yours.

01:29:14   I think the tech stuff is good and interesting. And yes, some people will use it too much and send an email with AI to their boss and get fired because it has something inappropriate in it.

01:29:25   So be it. I think for Apple, the image generation is something they shouldn't have done. I think that's a can of worms they should not have opened.

01:29:33   But they did. And they'll have to deal with the consequences of that when it turns someone's grandmother into a Nazi or whatever.

01:29:38   And I know Apple would say, oh, it can't. But like I'm telling you, whenever this stuff rolls out, there's going to be blog posts and YouTube videos of people, I got it to do this thing.

01:29:47   And then Apple's going to have to apologize.

01:29:49   I know what their problem's going to be. I think I said this on Cortex. I have established their issue. Because they have done, I'm sure, a very good job of their guardrails to make that stuff not happen.

01:30:00   Because they've made their system so simple, right? That you can only do people you know, that you can only make people you know, and they're under these four styles.

01:30:11   The issue they're going to run into is because they're recreating people, they're going to get facial features wrong. They're going to get skin tone wrong.

01:30:19   And that will be offensive. That's going to be their problem. That they will give somebody, somebody's face won't look like their face. And they'll draw it in such a way that is offensive.

01:30:35   I guarantee you right now, you can mark this today, that's the problem they're going to have. Because I genuinely don't think that they can stop that from happening.

01:30:45   Because it's just chance. You're rolling the dice every single time, right? That you generate one of these images.

01:30:52   And Kate has put it so succinctly, I predict that Apple intelligence is a racist headline. That's what it's going to be. That you're going to have somebody with dark skin and it's going to do their skin tone too light.

01:31:07   Or something like that, right? And that's going to be their, in my opinion, that's going to be their issue.

01:31:15   Because it's like, oh, you know, I don't know what, right? But it adds a lighting effect or something and makes somebody look strange compared to how they look in their photos or something like that. That's what I predict is going to be their issue.

01:31:26   Because it's out of the user's control, right? If you want to change the way you look in an emoji, that's up to you. But with Apple intelligence, it's up to the computer.

01:31:37   And I think that's what Apple is saying. I think that's what Apple is saying.

01:31:45   And I think that's what Apple is saying.

01:31:50   Because even sometimes, as Google so easily found out, the guardrails can be the problem. Like it wouldn't make white monarchy from Britain? Let me tell you something, if there's one thing the British monarchy has been, is white.

01:32:10   It did the same thing with Nazis, right? It made a very diverse set up. I was like, whoa, okay, let's not go down that road.

01:32:20   And so there are real problems with AI, in generative AI in particular. There will be problems with Apple's implementation just like everybody else's, despite Apple's best efforts.

01:32:33   Very few people are going out like, I'm set out to make a racist AI. No, that's just what happens. Ask, what was it, Microsoft Tay or whatever it was, the first one.

01:32:44   These things...

01:32:46   Whoa, that's a deep cut. Wow, yeah, man, that was a long time ago.

01:32:51   You know, it's probably like 2018. It probably wasn't even that long ago. But it is inherent to these technologies that bad things can happen.

01:33:02   And we have to be honest about that. And we have to be honest when it happens to talk about it truthfully.

01:33:10   And at the end of the day, like there are going to be people upset no matter what we do. If we don't talk about it, or if we block crawlers from reading our websites, or if we only talk about it, and we embrace these LLMs.

01:33:31   And cut deals for our content, no matter where we end up on those various spectrums. There will be people upset.

01:33:39   And so I guess the way to do it is just to be as honest and open with where we think. The three of us on the show don't all agree on this.

01:33:54   We have quite different opinions now.

01:33:59   I'm not doing on 512 pixels or relay FM what they're doing on Mac stories about the crawling. Because it just doesn't work me up the way that it works them up. And that's totally fine.

01:34:10   I think we can speak for both of us. We have absolute empathy and sympathy for the situation that Jon and Federico upset about.

01:34:21   I think what Apple, and I think they can speak for it, but it was the Apple bot thing that seemed to spark this in them. And I understand why, because the way Apple did this was so underhanded.

01:34:33   It was bad.

01:34:35   It was just bad. Like ethically bad to be like, we did this, you can opt out, but it's too late. The problem is giving me the opt out in that scenario. It's like a slap in the face.

01:34:49   To me at least, that feels like the issue. I don't know what upset me. It wasn't even so much that they did it. It's that they knew that they had to offer an opt out, because that's the right thing to do.

01:35:00   But they did it afterwards.

01:35:03   I'm convinced that Apple executives know they did it wrong. And that they're trying to sweep it under the rug. Because this is ethically, not even a grey area in my opinion.

01:35:15   They just took advantage of everybody.

01:35:19   Yeah, and I understand their response to that. It's just not my response to it. Even though I think they did it poorly, I'm not going out of my way to keep 512 out of those training models.

01:35:32   Because that just doesn't push my buttons the way it does theirs. And so we can be in agreement that we can disagree on things. Again, nuance.

01:35:44   I know that I, of everybody that I work with, am the most upset about image playgrounds. I am so upset about it. And I feel like that other people that I work with are just like, "Yeah, I mean, you know."

01:35:56   What does Jason call it? "Fun on your phone?" Which I like that. It's fun on your phone. He can say that's what Apple's going for, but I just think it's a terrible thing.

01:36:06   But I think that this is the key to this next chapter that we're all moving into. I don't expect that if we're going to talk about Apple intelligence that Federico's going to quit the show.

01:36:20   Because I also, again, I feel like I'm speaking a lot for him. I don't really know his position on stuff right now. I don't know what he's going to do. I hope that he reviews these features. I hope that he uses them and likes them, honestly.

01:36:37   But I don't know where he's going to be about that in September. But I think that's the key, right? I think the key is that we should all be entering into this phase of like, "We have these opinions right now, and these opinions aren't necessarily going to be the same as yesterday's or tomorrow's."

01:36:54   Because the technology of yesterday is not the same as technology of tomorrow. And I think that is why we're in this scenario. In the age of social media and even podcasting, we have not gone through something like this.

01:37:13   The AI moment that we're in right now is unlike anything since, I guess, the smartphone. How much it's going to change. And so I think to try and apply our thinking models of the last 10, 15 years on this is a fool's errand.

01:37:34   That's kind of all I want to get at. I feel like I just need to keep talking this stuff out, and I want to be talking it out in front of our audiences. I think people need to understand that we don't have answers and that I don't think everybody should have answers. We should just be asking questions. I'm just asking the questions, you know?

01:37:57   I think that's fair. And knowing that we're going to do so in a best-faith kind of way, right? It's the folks who come down 100% either way that I feel like are missing it.

01:38:18   And I don't think this is just too broad, but also too important to do that, to not pick it apart and look at it piece by piece and not just at the 10,000th of you.

01:38:31   Well, I think that does it. If you want to tell us how wrong we are, there's a bunch of ways to do it. You can find us all on threads as Viti, V-I-T-I-C-C-I. Mike is I, Mike, I-M-Y-K-E, and I am I7H86. You can also search for us on Macedon using those same handles.

01:38:54   Mike is, of course, the host of a bunch of other shows here on Relay of Fame. We mentioned Cortex and Upgrade. Go check out his work over at Cortex Brand.

01:39:03   Federico is the editor-in-chief of MaxStories.net. They're doing lots of great work over there. A growing team. I met a bunch of the new Max Stories people at WBCC, which was awesome.

01:39:13   So they are just rocking and rolling over there. You can find my writing at 512pixels.net or in your favorite LLM of choice, I guess.

01:39:23   I just searched through it. It's in there somewhere.

01:39:26   The search for performers, you'll find me. You can become a member and get Connected Pro, which is the longer ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week.

01:39:36   Connected Pro members also get access to the Relay members Discord and newsletter, some extra members-only podcasts we do each month. It's great fun. It's a great value. Go check that out. There's a link in the show notes.

01:39:52   Mike, until next time, say goodbye.

01:39:55   Cheerio.

01:39:56   Bye, y'all.

01:39:57   Bye, y'all.