0:00:00[Intro music]
0:00:09From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 519 for July 1st, 2024. Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN and Factor.
0:00:20My name is Mike Hurley, it is the Summer of Fun! I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason.
0:00:27Hi, Mike. Happy July. Happy July to you too. Yeah, we're in the deep into the Summer of Fun now, I feel like.
0:00:33I feel like we really got it. We don't get to see what we're wearing, because we don't have video on
0:00:40during the recording of this, but we do record the video and then post it. Yes. I'm wearing my Summer
0:00:45of Fun t-shirt today. I'm... Dongle Town. OG Dongle Town, Orange Dongle Town t-shirt today. Beauty.
0:00:52All right. I like it that we we often wear Upgrade t-shirts during the upgrade. I always wear Upgrade t-shirts on Mondays.
0:00:57Unless I've had like a meeting or something and I'm wearing something a little nicer, I'll always wear
0:01:01an Upgrade t-shirt on Mondays. I mean, what's nicer than an Upgrade t-shirt? But I get your...
0:01:06You have to understand the context of it. We pre-recorded something for a future episode
0:01:10on Friday, and that we did with video on for reasons that we'll get into later. We have some
0:01:18special guests coming up, but when the video popped up, it revealed that Mike and I were both wearing
0:01:23our Upgrade Colors R t-shirts, so that was hilarious. I love it. I have a snow talk question for you,
0:01:29Jason. All right. It comes from Yoni who wants to know, "Will the 4th of July Lawn Tubeman be making
0:01:35an appearance this year?" Okay, I think we need to explain this question. So I have a... This is good upgrade
0:01:40law, this one, I think. Yeah, I have a blower and an inflatable Tubeman. They're called
0:01:46Air Dancers, I guess. You know, it's like you see them in front of businesses and they
0:01:50they wave around and stuff, and I have one that is... And then you can buy like a... It's like a
0:01:57sock that goes on it, and then that's the Tubeman. So the blower can have different Tubeman put on it.
0:02:03So at Halloween, I have an orange one, and I put the orange Tubeman out there, and the trick-or-treaters
0:02:08love it. They would... I could create a whole religion or cult out of children in my neighborhood
0:02:17worshipping the Tubeman, okay? It is catnip for the kids. But... And then I have a Santa. So at
0:02:24Christmas time, I will put out the Santa, and I think that's a fun little twist on it. So we talked
0:02:28about the idea that maybe I would get the Uncle Sam or the Eagle or really probably the American
0:02:34Flag Tubeman. He's kind of got a blue face, and then there's stars below him, and then red and
0:02:38white stripes below that. And I believe when we talked about this maybe last year or the year
0:02:43before, then I went to the website and saw that it was like 50 bucks. I was like, "Do I really want
0:02:48that? Do I want to...?" And I just didn't have the enthusiasm to do it. So once again, the answer is
0:02:53no, I will not be doing it because I didn't buy the Uncle Sam. - Why are you so enthused about
0:03:02Santa and Halloween but not about Uncle Sam? - I don't know. I just got the idea that... I bought
0:03:10the Tubeman because I thought it would be fun. And Jamie and I had talked for years about getting
0:03:14a Tubeman, much to the consternation of Lauren. Jamie and I were like, "Oh, we could get a Tubeman."
0:03:19I thought, "Yes, we could. We could." The danger of talking to me, if you're in my family, about
0:03:23something that seems ridiculous but you all share a laugh about it is that in the background I'm
0:03:27thinking, "I could actually do that. We could actually do that. That's hahaha. Yeah, wouldn't
0:03:33it be funny if we got a Tubeman?" I could buy a Tubeman. So yeah, I don't know. I just... I'm
0:03:41often... Often we are not here on the 4th of July and we are this year and I could have gotten it.
0:03:46And I just... I look at the price and I think, "Do I want to do this?" And it's always after
0:03:544th of July and I'm like, "Do I want to store this away for a future?" I should absolutely
0:03:58do it though. But we'll figure it out. Oh, but Mike, you know, speaking of the 4th of July...
0:04:03Yep. It's time for the American quiz. Mike, what is the capital of the United States? Is it New York,
0:04:19Washington DC, Los Angeles, or Chicago? Washington DC. Alright, correct. In which year did the United
0:04:27States declare its independence? Was it 1776, 1789, 1812, or 1607? 1776. That's very good.
0:04:39Reference acknowledged. It was on the 4th of July. Is this happening now? Are we doing this now?
0:04:45And one more for now. Which river is the longest in the United States? Is it the Mississippi,
0:04:50the Missouri, the Colorado, or the Ohio? Mississippi River. Correct! Mississippi River.
0:04:55You got three out of three on this portion of the Upgrade American quiz, but good news everybody.
0:05:04In Upgrade Plus today, if you're an Upgrade Plus subscriber, we will continue the American quiz
0:05:12with my little monkey sound that appears to have... Oh, the monkey died! Mike, you win! You're the
0:05:16victor! The monkey died! Wow, we're deep in the law now. Like, so last year on Upgrade Plus,
0:05:23on the 4th of July week episode, Jason surprised me with a big American quiz, which I thought... I
0:05:29think it was the American citizenship test. Yeah, we've done that. I had you identify states in a
0:05:34previous one. Yeah, I mean, yeah, this is what happens here. So look forward to the return of
0:05:39the great American quiz... No sound, thank you... of Upgrade Plus. So you go to getupgradeplus.com
0:05:47and Jason's going to try and get that horrible monkey sound to work, which upsets me greatly. So
0:05:51we're just going to move on now. Thank you so much to Snout of Tioni for that Snout Talk question
0:05:56as we move into some follow up. So we've got a bunch of follow up about the Vision Pro and a
0:06:02cheaper Vision Pro, which was a conversation we had on the last episode. Robert wrote in and said,
0:06:07"A Vision product at the $500 price point is important for a bunch of reasons, but it all
0:06:12comes back to price elasticity of demand. The Vision is and will be an accessory product for
0:06:18a long time. That is how Apple designed it. They don't want it to replace anything. Normal consumers
0:06:23won't pay over $1,000 for an accessory to their $1,500 laptop to use software running on the
0:06:30laptop. This is like the HomePod all over again." I want to read the second thing because I think
0:06:34I kind of got together a little bit. Matt says, "I have to disagree with quite a few aspects of
0:06:39your discussion about the Vision Pro, specifically around its job to be done and the price. Apple has
0:06:44said that the Vision Pro is the future of computing. At any point in the past 20 years,
0:06:49Apple's current vision of computing has cost anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000. Given that,
0:06:55would you expect them to ever sell a $500 MacBook?" Well, so is it an accessory or is it a computer
0:07:02is part of the question here. Yeah, I don't think I buy, given how they pitch it right now,
0:07:07I don't really buy that it is an accessory. I think that if it was priced as a $500 device,
0:07:14it would be probably considered more of an accessory. But I think that this is part of
0:07:19what Apple is grappling with, is what is it? Where does it fit? They don't know. One rumor that I saw
0:07:25was that they were even considering maybe going back to the idea of having it be partially driven
0:07:31by an iPhone or a Mac in the low-cost version, which is bananas to me, but like that would
0:07:38certainly put it as firmly as an accessory. I think if it's the future of computing, then sure,
0:07:44it would cost a lot. The problem is the reality, which is the getting people to buy a Vision Pro
0:07:50as the future of computing. Right now, they're not going to do that. They're going to buy a laptop.
0:07:54They're not going to buy a Vision Pro. Like, "Oh, should I buy a laptop or a Vision Pro?" The answer
0:07:58is going to be almost always a laptop, right? So how do you do this in the long run? How do you
0:08:05make this product something that has room to evolve over time and become whatever it needs
0:08:11to be? And I think one thing, what we were talking about last time is they need more users. They need
0:08:20this thing to have more activity in it. Otherwise, it will be hard for it to grow. So one of the
0:08:26reasons you build a cheaper product is because the lower that price is, the more people you'll get on
0:08:32board with it. Yeah, I think it's like, I understand where both Robert and Matt are coming from,
0:08:41because you've got the "How is Apple talking about it and what are they actually doing with it?"
0:08:47And those are actually different things. I think realistically, Vision Pro will be the future of
0:08:55computing in the way that the iPad was. In the sense that for some people, for a large amount
0:09:03of people, it provides a good enough experience to be their primary computer, but it doesn't
0:09:08really replace en masse what came before it. And I think the Vision Pro will be a similar thing.
0:09:15So yes, you would ideally want to put it into the kind of the pricing bucket of an iPad,
0:09:22which would be around $1,500. We also got a selection of feedback across Mastodon and
0:09:27Threads in the feedback form about the idea of, you know, because I've said that I don't believe
0:09:36that $1,500 is really a good enough price still to make a meaningful difference for the Vision Pro,
0:09:44right? Like that was this price that we're talking about last week, that I'm not sure how much of a
0:09:48difference $1,500 is to $3,500. And a bunch of people wrote in to say like, "Well, you know,
0:09:53a laptop costs $1,500." But kind of my counterpoint to that is there, but there's a lot of stuff on
0:09:59Mac OS. There's a lot of stuff, right? And there's a big inbuilt platform of apps and experiences
0:10:06that are known to work in that environment. Plus there is all of the inbuilt social contract around
0:10:11using a laptop, right? Where like, yeah, you could use all of your web apps inside of a Vision Pro,
0:10:18but you're going to do that at the office? Like I just know at the moment, I'm not really sure that
0:10:23the Vision Pro replaces it and neither is there really enough of a unique software ecosystem,
0:10:30like enough of one to justify it. And I don't know if $1,500 as a price point would actually get
0:10:40there. So I want to actually read a quote from an article that you wrote,
0:10:43kind of, I think informed by the conversation we had last week where you said,
0:10:47"Absolutely." "Apple needs to invest more in getting developers to build their apps on Vision
0:10:51OS. And since the size of the near-term market opportunity sure won't, some of it inducement,
0:10:56like maybe even money might be a good idea." It's like, that's, I think the thing of there needs to
0:11:01be more apps. And I don't know if a $1,500 Vision Pro is going to excite enough developers more than
0:11:09the $3,500 Vision Pro. I think what Apple needs to do is actually give the developer kits that
0:11:18they seem to suggest they would give and they seemingly never did in a large enough kind of,
0:11:24I don't think you have enough of them out basically. And I think that could be something
0:11:30that could make a difference. You need more applications. Maybe a way to do that is to give
0:11:34a bunch of developers free Vision Pros. Maybe that will encourage them enough to do it.
0:11:37- Right. It might not even need to be a public program. It could literally be approaching
0:11:41interesting app developers and saying, "We see you haven't done anything with Vision Pro.
0:11:45We can get you one, please." And yeah, that would be a way, Apple Arcade is a way that you can drive
0:11:53some of this 'cause that's a place where Apple actually does pay developers essentially to do
0:11:57apps on their platform. I wonder though, if there should be some more, maybe even behind the scenes
0:12:02deals made to induce other developers to actually make apps for the platform. And the idea here,
0:12:08and productivity apps, entertainment apps, the idea here really is that have this few months into
0:12:14Vision Pro, it seems like the biggest challenge for Vision Pro is content, is like you said,
0:12:21you need things on it. And the chicken egg problem is for $1,500 as a user, I'll buy it for $1,500
0:12:31maybe more readily than I'd buy it for $3,500. I mean, certainly that's the case, but you're still
0:12:36also coming up against what's on it. And so when we talk about Apple not doing much immersive video
0:12:42and that they're not being a lot of 3D video on there, and that there are not a lot of apps on
0:12:47there, and that even like apps, a lot of Apple's apps aren't on there, which is part of the problem
0:12:52here, but there's a broader problem too. If you're gonna lean in on spatial computing,
0:12:56you really need apps to be there. If you're gonna talk about entertainment, which they have talked
0:13:00about some, I think it's the best thing on it, they need more content there. And the other piece
0:13:06of this is they also need better game content because that's content. And again, Apple and
0:13:12gaming, I know it's a complicated thing, but I'll tell you, the one thing that has sold VR headsets
0:13:18to people is games, traditionally in this market, right? It emerged from games. And Apple, I think
0:13:27for some understandable reasons, when they launched the Vision Pro, they're like basically saying,
0:13:31"No, we're not." Famously in their demo or in their video, when they introduced it, they said,
0:13:38"Look, here is an iPad game being played with a handheld controller in Vision Pro." That was
0:13:44their game story. And there are some games on the platform, but the problem is there's a whole class
0:13:50of games that was traditionally the best games for other VR headsets that are not on the platform.
0:13:58And again, I understand why Apple released the Vision Pro with just hand tracking. And every
0:14:04other VR headset comes with handheld controllers, right? Or I don't know about every other, the
0:14:08Quest certainly does, right? Handheld controllers have a lot of advantages. There's precision.
0:14:12You don't even need to see your hands because they have their own tracking in them. So it's very
0:14:19precise about where your hands are and your hands are on controller buttons that you can use. And
0:14:24there's haptic feedback so that you get responses to what you do in space. And I understand why
0:14:30Apple didn't do that because they're like, "No, no, no. We have really great hand tracking." And
0:14:34they do. And I think as somebody suggested to me last week, a little bit like forcing the original
0:14:42Mac out without arrow keys, because it was like, "We want you to use the mouse." I think Apple
0:14:46wanted to say, "This is not just a game platform because at $3,500 it doesn't make sense as a game
0:14:51platform." And we're really proud of our hand tracking and it's good for productivity. And
0:14:55you know, every time I put on the Vision Pro, I still am so grateful that I don't have to do
0:15:00the thing I do with the Quest where I have to not just put on the headset, but get the controllers
0:15:05and put them nearby and then pick them up and make sure they've got their batteries in them.
0:15:09And then I'm good to go. And the Vision Pro, I just put it on and then I can run the whole thing.
0:15:13And I know that the hand tracking has gotten better on the Quest. Quest 3's hand tracking is
0:15:17fine. It's not as good as Apple's. But the problem is that they're missing all of the titles, all of
0:15:24the software that could get ported to Vision Pro and be good because they have decided to not
0:15:32either build optional hand controllers or build an API so that third parties can build hand
0:15:37controllers. And what I'm saying is I understand why Apple wanted to go out the door without them,
0:15:43but it would be a really quick win for the platform if there was an API or there were
0:15:49Apple hand controllers as an option so that you could bring a load of cool, fun, interesting games
0:16:01into the store. The ones that have been brought over, like the simulators, the job simulator and
0:16:08all that, are kind of wonky. The Fruit Ninja one that they did, I think it's terrible. I just can't
0:16:17do it. And I am coming from somebody who's used a Quest and I know how good this should be, and it's
0:16:22not. And it's because, as good as Apple's hand tracking is, it's missing a bunch of things that
0:16:27make these games really good in terms of precision input from your movements and from pressing things,
0:16:34as well as having the haptics there. So this is one of those things where it's like,
0:16:38I understand why Apple's proud of its hand tracking, but it can't be dogmatic. I'm really
0:16:46reminded of the whole idea of the Apple Pencil. Remember, if you see a stylus, they blew it.
0:16:51The whole point of that was a touchscreen shouldn't have to have a stylus. It shouldn't
0:16:56be mandatory. Well, a VR headset shouldn't have to have hand controllers. Absolutely true, 100%.
0:17:03However, the Apple Pencil makes the iPad way better, and it's not a condemnation of the
0:17:08touch on the iPad. It's because there's certain things where you want a little more precision
0:17:12and the ergonomics make more sense, and so optionally you can add the Apple Pencil.
0:17:17And if I'm looking at what they could do to Vision Pro as they're trying to get the price down to make
0:17:24it more valuable, allowing hand controllers to exist for the platform so that you get a bunch
0:17:30of games in there on top of your immersive video that is coming. It's coming. There's going to be
0:17:36more of that and more 3D video and also, yes, productivity apps and all those things. At this
0:17:41point, if you're in charge of Vision Pro, I feel like you need to be finding every possible way
0:17:47to sell a $1,500 headset by the end of next year, and that includes getting a bunch of those games.
0:17:55They've got that relationship with ILM Interactive. They did What If.
0:17:59Well, could they get Vader Immortal to come over? That's a lightsaber game. You can't really do it
0:18:04without hand controllers. But could they? I don't know what the contracts are with Meta or whatever,
0:18:12if there are limits on that. But porting a bunch of really great games, or even knocking them off
0:18:17in the case of things that are owned by Meta and aren't coming to the platform, it just seems like
0:18:21this needs to be Apple's prime motivation to keep this thing going and growing.
0:18:27I know that they're playing the long game here, but they also need some signs of life and some
0:18:31progress in the next 18 months. So if they did this, they were like, "Oh, you can come
0:18:37and play this game, but it requires hand controllers." Do you think that is a hurdle?
0:18:44Do you think that is a problem, the requirement? It's not ideal that it's not in every box,
0:18:51but I had a bunch of people write to me after I wrote this article saying it's actually exactly
0:18:55what happened with the Apple TV. They made it that every game that was on the Apple TV at the
0:19:01beginning, other than Guitar Hero, had to use the Siri remote. Yes. Oh my god, yes. No, no, no, no.
0:19:10So I get it, but if Apple's not willing to put controllers in the box and it's already a very
0:19:16expensive product, that's fine. I think they need to be good with the idea that there are a bunch of
0:19:21game experiences that get better if you unlock the third-party controller or the Apple controller.
0:19:26That is an option. Apple has had no problem selling straps and selling puffy cases and
0:19:33selling optical inserts and other things for the Vision Pro. So why not sell some hand trackers you
0:19:41can boast about that you built or you built for Belkin or whatever? So I get it, right? It's not
0:19:47as clean as saying these games are available because it's these games are available asterisk.
0:19:52But right now they're already having to tell the story of, well this game plays a lot better if you
0:19:56pair a controller to it. Right? They literally had a paired third-party controller. Well the Apple TV
0:20:02has some games that only work with a controller. For sure. Now. Yeah. Now. Currently. Now. Like
0:20:09you have to have like a proper controller, right? So like there just isn't anything else. It's like
0:20:15you need an Xbox controller or a PlayStation controller or whatever to play like one of the NBA
0:20:21basketball games that they have in Apple Arcade or something like that. So yeah, it's not unheard of.
0:20:26Right. Now if they want to get creative and have it be two pencil pros that you hold in your hands
0:20:32and they have haptic and they have position, like okay, we could talk about that. But I feel like
0:20:36they got to do something and this is just, again, I'm not saying, oh no, the Apple pencil or the
0:20:41Apple pencil, the Vision Pro is doomed without hand controllers. That's not quite what I'm saying.
0:20:44I'm saying for momentum to be built with the Vision Pro, I think at this point, as you're
0:20:50going toward a $1,500, $1,000, whatever it is, lower cost version, you just got to turn over the
0:20:57couch cushions and like look in there for anything that will motivate people to come to the platform.
0:21:04And some of it is video content and some of it is apps and motivating developers to be on the
0:21:11platform is part of the story. And this to me seems like another quick win. I'm not saying it's easy,
0:21:18but I'm saying it looks like the amount of effort required to do it would probably get paid back
0:21:23by the amount of software you'd be able to put on your platform. The Vision Pro is now available to
0:21:29buy in China, Hong Kong, Japan, and Singapore. And pre-orders are available for Australia, Canada,
0:21:35France, Germany, and the UK. So a lot of people pointing this out on Threads and Mastodon that
0:21:42in the photos that Apple put in their newsroom piece for the Asian launches, all of the people
0:21:50using the devices were using the dual loop band, not the solo loop band for their demos.
0:21:56Mark Gurman has confirmed this is actually an official change for comfort reasons with
0:22:01Apple retail that by and large, customers prefer, comfort wise, the dual loop band rather than the
0:22:07solo loop band. Mark Gurman has also shared that Apple has changed the demo experience worldwide
0:22:13with this release. You can now, if you go in for a demo, rather than looking at stock photos
0:22:20or videos on the Vision Pro, you can send your own photos or videos to the device to look at those,
0:22:26so you can get a more personal experience. And additionally, the retail employees are being told
0:22:31that if a user wants to spend more time with a specific part of the experience, they're being
0:22:37given more freedom to do so, to kind of go deep on, as they're calling it, on a particular app
0:22:44or part of Vision OS. So they're trying to do more, it seems. Yeah, this goes back to our
0:22:49conversation about the ways that Apple retail is adapting to selling the Vision Pro, right?
0:22:54Because we talked about how there was a perception that the canned demo took too long,
0:22:59and they got, again, and I go back to the inception of this product, clearly there were a bunch of
0:23:05points, philosophical points that became kind of tent poles of this product.
0:23:12And the screen that faces out is one of them, oh, we don't want to lose connection with this
0:23:19product, so we're going to put eyes on the front of it and all of that. One of them was, we're going
0:23:23to have a very particular way that we introduce this to people in retail stores, and we're going
0:23:28to have a whole script and we're going to get everybody trained. And now they're reacting to it,
0:23:32where, as we talked about a few weeks ago, they have shortened it up because they want to just
0:23:37get it on everybody's head, because once you see it, you can be blown away by it. And so it's
0:23:42interesting for this report that also we will find a way for you to see your photos and videos and be
0:23:49blown away by that, which is pretty great. So they're learning, right? They're learning. But
0:23:55when we talk about some of the technical stuff, when we talk about lack of hand controller option
0:24:00or some of the other things they're doing, or trying to take things off of it like that front
0:24:05face display, presumably, to make a cheaper version, I think it's all the same, which is
0:24:10there were some very strong held beliefs about this product that I would say don't necessarily
0:24:17make sense, but I understand how they probably emerged from an ongoing internal conversation.
0:24:23And I don't want to be so reductive as to say there were a bunch of people who were like,
0:24:27as reports would suggest, Johnny Ive saying sort of like very highfalutin things about,
0:24:32"Oh, we don't want to cut people off and they really need to understand it." And that's part
0:24:36of Apple's personality is being that kind of like controlling and visionary and not necessarily as
0:24:43real realistic as maybe they should be. And then reality hits. And so it's good to see Apple
0:24:50adapting and saying, "Oh yeah, maybe they should see their own photos and maybe we can't do the
0:24:55full 30 minutes." And also maybe if they want to go a little longer, I mean, do you have 10
0:25:01other people waiting to use the Vision Pro? Maybe let them play around a little bit longer if you're
0:25:05closing the sale here. So that all, it's a good sign. I think the longer somebody uses a Vision
0:25:11Pro, the more likely they are to buy one. 100%. 100% true. Yeah. I've been using mine more
0:25:19since the 2.0 beta came out. I've written a bunch of articles on it. Like you, every time I...
0:25:27Like when you're in it. Yeah, I suppose. And like you, I also find very much like once I'm in there,
0:25:35I kind of want to stay in there. So I'm like, what else can I do while I'm in here?
0:25:39Yeah, I like play around, like, you know, go to the apps and stuff. I'm excited that now
0:25:44the UK is coming online soon. I'll be able to actually use my iCloud account, which will be
0:25:50great. Or my App Store account, I should say. I also ordered a second solo band so I can do the
0:25:57solo top thing that everybody does. You're gonna do solo top? All right. It's good. I really like it.
0:26:01For those who don't know, that's the, there's a little 3D printed adapter you can buy on like
0:26:05Etsy or whatever. And you put another solo, one of those adjustable solo bands on the top. So
0:26:11you're creating a dual strap out of two of the adjustable bands. A bunch of us have done that.
0:26:16And it's really nice. I understand why Apple didn't want to do it because it probably costs a lot of
0:26:20money. And I'm guessing that number one thing that will be the case in the, in the low priced, lower
0:26:26priced Vision Pro next year will be, they'll just use the cheap dual band. I mean, the cheap dual
0:26:31band seems to... Yeah. Like, and that's another case where I think that that 3D knitted band was
0:26:37very kind of over engineered and very precious and beautiful. And then people use it and they're like,
0:26:42I need something more. And they're like, all right, we made this dual strap thing for you.
0:26:47And then you'll have to buy a nice strap separate if you want. Yeah. There are some weird ways that
0:26:52could get the price down, right? It could be like, all right, this is the starting price. It doesn't
0:26:55include, it includes one band and no battery. You can plug it in, right? And keep like to power or
0:27:01you can buy a battery if you want to be mobile with it. There is a bunch of weird ways that could
0:27:07get that starting price down, but it would degrade the experience, but that might be what they need
0:27:12to do if they want to kind of get that price down. Get more people out there. This episode is brought
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0:29:25support of this show and Relay FM. It's time to lawyer up, Jason Snell. Clunk, clunk. So we
0:29:32mentioned on the last episode that we were recording a few days in advance and we expected
0:29:37that the European Union would be publishing something and they did. The EU has found Apple
0:29:43in breach of the DMA over a variety of reasons, including their anti-steering rules. They have
0:29:50also announced that they are investigating the core technology fee and all of the steps that
0:29:54Apple make users go through to install alternative app marketplaces, which is another form of
0:29:59steering. The European Union is essentially unhappy with the ways in which they're saying
0:30:04Apple is limiting the ability for developers to freely enable alternative payment methods
0:30:09and sideloading of apps without also needing to accept the new business terms, which they are also
0:30:15unhappy with. When I was reading through the European Union's press release that they put out,
0:30:20it felt like they were taking every element that Apple has done to comply and say,
0:30:28"We're not happy with this." And what it kept bringing me back to was the term malicious
0:30:32compliance, right, which we were talking about when Apple first put out their DMA
0:30:36response where for weeks me and you were sitting here on this show and picking it apart and being
0:30:41like, "I don't know about that. I'm not sure about that." And this term was being used a lot online
0:30:45about malicious compliance, which is like they're essentially complying with what the European Union
0:30:50is asking them to do, but they're doing it in such a way that makes it very unattractive for
0:30:55developers to want to opt into this or users to want to opt into this. And it seems like the
0:31:00European Union is saying exactly that. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is the question is how do they
0:31:06handle this? And we talked about Apple's approach here of basically doing as little as possible
0:31:12and engineering things in a way that it changes what Apple does as little as possible. And I
0:31:16think some of this maybe comes down to the way that the DMA is written and the way the regulation
0:31:24works, where it seems like they're basically expecting a company to embrace what they've been
0:31:32told to do to the fullest extent and do it. And I look at that and think, how would you expect a
0:31:40company to react to that? It's unrealistic. Of course Apple's going to do the minimum it can
0:31:46to fulfill the law while retaining as much control as possible. Of course they're going to do that.
0:31:52And so you need a system where there's a little more clarity and they come to some agreement on
0:32:00it. And that's not the system that's happening with Apple in the EU where they've come to any
0:32:04agreement on anything. It's more like Apple will try to slide something through and then see what
0:32:08gets flagged. And then we go from there and everybody figures out what the next steps are.
0:32:15And there's somewhat of a lack of clarity. And then there's also Apple just trying to pick
0:32:19apart. Right. Again, Apple's not interested in the spirit of the law. And I think that the European
0:32:24Commission is interested in the spirit of the law. Apple's not. Apple's like, look, you said to do
0:32:28this thing. You didn't say we couldn't add a core technology fee. So we're going to do that. And
0:32:33that is the challenge in regulating them is you need to, if you're a regulator, you need to be
0:32:39able to point to the language in your document and make your rulings about policy and say, no,
0:32:45this is, you missed the point here. And if they are able to do that, then Apple will have to
0:32:53change its ways. But this is why this is so messy is that Apple's not going to go along with it.
0:32:59And I know all of us can say, look, Apple, this could all have been avoided if you had just behaved
0:33:05in a different way. I think Apple's approach is no, why should we? We're just going to keep
0:33:11fighting it. And I think it's different in some places like China where Apple also complies with
0:33:15regulations. But I think that Apple is told what is required in China. And it's very clear.
0:33:20And also China is an authoritarian state where you can't really appeal to the public in the way that
0:33:27you maybe could in Europe and hope that they make changes. It's a different system. But here,
0:33:33in this case, Apple's looking at the EC and the DMA and saying, well, this is how we're going to
0:33:40play it. And I think it's up to the EC to provide more clarity about what they want Apple to do.
0:33:48Because right now we're in this weird game where they're sort of like winking and making hand
0:33:51signals and Apple's like, okay, you know, I'm not going to, Apple doesn't want to give away anything
0:33:57it isn't forced to essentially. I don't begrudge in this scenario, Apple attempting to do what
0:34:05they're attempting to do, right? Which is be legal, but within the ways that protect them the most.
0:34:13But if you're going to do that, you're opening yourself up to a lot of criticism,
0:34:19which I'm also very happy to give. Right. Right. And the danger that you will be
0:34:24ultimately forced to do more than you would have been.
0:34:28Where if you would have had to do this in good faith, you may have been able to make
0:34:33some concessions where if you come to this in what is considered bad faith, you may be forced
0:34:38to do things that you didn't want to do, which actually this just goes back to what we've been
0:34:42saying on the show for years, where maybe if Apple would have made concessions earlier on,
0:34:47they wouldn't be in this place anyway. Right. Before the DMA may never have existed
0:34:53if Apple were maybe different about the way that they run the app store, but they wanted to do
0:34:57things the way that they wanted to do. And I have a statement here that was given to 9to5Mac from
0:35:02Apple where they say they are confident our plan complies with the law and estimate more than 99%
0:35:07of developers would pay the same or less in fees to Apple under new business terms.
0:35:12So basically there's two things going on here, which is one,
0:35:21the EU commissioners had their preliminary findings where they're unhappy with steering,
0:35:27and they're now opening another investigation, which includes the CTF, which includes
0:35:34eligibility requirements for developers, like the membership of good standing wording they're
0:35:40unhappy with, and also how complicated it is to download an alternative app marketplace,
0:35:46where what they have found them in breach for is the business terms, which restrict developers,
0:35:53you know, like you can only opt into this and it completely changes everything.
0:35:57The way that alternative payment methods have all the scare sheets, they're unhappy with those,
0:36:02and also some in-app purchase fee stuff. So it's a lot, honestly. This is what I mean,
0:36:07when you actually read through it, which again, I will credit that I said this last time, I'll say
0:36:12it again, the European Union's press releases are very readable in a way that I wouldn't have
0:36:16expected from a government body. Like you can just read them and they're very clear.
0:36:22They're essentially unhappy with every single part of it. So this continues and will continue
0:36:29to go on for a long time. EU competition regulator Margaret Vestager has said that Apple's decision
0:36:37to withhold Apple intelligence in the European Union is a stunning, open declaration of their
0:36:43anti-competitive behavior. I want to read the full quote that she gave. "I find that very
0:36:50interesting that they say we will now deploy AI where we're not obliged to enable competition.
0:36:57I think that this is the most stunning open declaration that they know 100% that this is
0:37:02another way of disabling competition where they have a stronghold already."
0:37:06So this is not dissimilar to I think our initial take on this news that came out
0:37:15during last episode, right? When we were recording, this news dropped and that there was,
0:37:21I think, as I will speak for myself, had the take of like, "Oh, this is like another card they can
0:37:26play to maybe try and drum up support amongst European users to be in opposition to the DMA."
0:37:33And I've been reflecting since last week's episode and my opinions have changed slightly. Like I kind
0:37:41of now hold two opinions about this where I still think that Apple are using these features as a way
0:37:49to maybe try and get a leg up on Europe. However, I think I can see more of some legitimate concern
0:37:59from them about any new feature, big new feature that includes data of any kind or any kind of
0:38:06system like an ecosystem play. They need to be very hesitant about bringing those features into
0:38:14any country that wants to attack their interoperability. Without confirmation from
0:38:22the European Union, how does Apple know if Apple Intelligence will comply with what the DMA wants?
0:38:29And if the DMA would require them to change it in some way, would that be an issue for their
0:38:36privacy part of like the private cloud stuff? Because at the core, the DMA is going after
0:38:44Apple's interoperability. Like that's what they want to break. But so does the Department of
0:38:49Justice, right? We've got to remember that case still like floating out there. Their whole thing
0:38:54is wanting to break up Apple's interoperability, even with like the Apple Watch and stuff.
0:38:58So I don't know. Basically, I think Apple's taken advantage of this for where they can.
0:39:06But I can see a scenario in which they do not feel inclined to mess with this legally,
0:39:14especially considering like they're on the cutting edge, the bleeding edge of Apple Intelligence.
0:39:19Like any more work they need to do to get Apple Intelligence out the door than they thought they
0:39:24would is going to be a problem for them. So maybe they're just going to hold it off in the places
0:39:28where they're not sure if they can launch it. So that's kind of my thoughts and reflection.
0:39:32I don't know what you think now with a week and a bit. Well, this statement from Margaret
0:39:38Bessinger is a moment where I thought like I have been very open to some of what the EC is trying to
0:39:46do. Because it's a lot of addressing a lot of criticisms that we've had about Apple's control
0:39:55over its market and over the App Store and some of the arbitrary rules that it sets that we think are
0:40:00unfair. And so I've been inclined to say, yeah, you know, shake it up, right? Like make Apple,
0:40:06you're right, these things are kind of unfair and Apple should do better. But this quote
0:40:11makes me realize that the vision that she has and perhaps that the regulators,
0:40:20you know, that work in this group have is much broader than that. And I think I'm deeply troubled
0:40:28by it because what first off what she's saying here is anytime Apple withholds any feature from
0:40:36the EU, they are telling on themselves that they are revealing that that is a plan to
0:40:45disable competition. Everything Apple has withheld is they're doing it because it was another feature
0:40:53designed to disable competition. And she's really kind of patting herself on the back here about
0:40:59like protecting people from evil Apple, where everything that they do is another way using
0:41:08her words of disabling competition. The problem with that is what Apple what you said is true,
0:41:16what Apple is doing is trying to ship features and build features and ship them. And in this case,
0:41:20with AI, they are on a desperate push to ship features quickly. And what she's saying is,
0:41:30oh, it's all part of a scheme by Apple. And the truth is, no, it's a tech company building
0:41:35features, in this case, very quickly. And I don't know what she wants. I think, I mean,
0:41:42I don't know, because if what she wants is that Apple should, where's the competition? Apple
0:41:49should allow other models access to the personal data that's being kept on your device? Or is it
0:41:59other models should be able to be used instead of Apple's model? I don't know where this goes,
0:42:04but I think it suggests an attitude that tech companies who have been named as gatekeepers
0:42:15should no longer launch features that aren't completely open to competition,
0:42:22which sort of turns Apple's maintenance of iOS into running a public utility instead of being
0:42:28a tech company that is competing with another large tech company for control and success in
0:42:36this platform, in smartphones, and making Apple some sort of electric company where the idea is,
0:42:42oh, well, you've got a lot of regulation and you're a public utility and everything you go
0:42:48through has to be approved and all of that. Apple's shipping new features. Tech companies
0:42:52can't ship new features that are just an open slot with, we don't know whether those features will
0:43:00work or not. Will anyone care or not? Once you ship an API, you're sort of going to maintain it,
0:43:07or do they have to maintain it forever? What if they have to change it? Is that any competitive
0:43:12to change it and make all their alternatives change to sort the new API? This statement by her
0:43:19suggests a level of contempt for Apple doing what it does, which is build products,
0:43:26thinking that they are the ones, the regulators are the ones who can tell tech companies
0:43:33how to make software features work. It's, I think, delusional. We'll see what happens here.
0:43:45I think the truth is that Apple, I also think they're bent out of shape because Apple announced
0:43:50a bunch of features without talking to them first because Apple's not going to talk to them first.
0:43:53It's going to release it on its own schedule. The risk for Apple is that this all comes to pass.
0:43:58The risk for Apple is that what the EU says is, "No, you read it right. You are going to have to
0:44:05internalize us and build every feature you're going to build on this plan of open competition.
0:44:13That is the future. You are going to be building a public service in your operating system."
0:44:20The danger is that not only do they have to do that in the EU, but then they start to have to
0:44:27do that in lots of other parts of the world until ever. There's a way to say, "What's the danger
0:44:32in competition?" What I would say is, no, competition is good, but Apple's whole thing
0:44:40is that they build interesting features that people want to use. I'm telling you that if
0:44:46what Apple has to start building are public utility features that are mandated, where it's
0:44:51an empty box that you can plug something in from Apple or something else, they're going to build a
0:44:56lot fewer features and they aren't going to be very good. Because that's not what Apple does.
0:45:00Apple's trying to build an integrated product. What you want to stop is Apple abusing its power
0:45:06in one area to break companies in other areas. But what you should not do is prevent Apple from
0:45:12making features. This is what the danger is here. I was open last week to the idea of, "Oh, well,
0:45:23Apple's doing some politics here, but also presumably that they will analyze this and
0:45:27they'll talk to the regulators and they'll say, 'Does this comply or not?'" They're giving the
0:45:31regulators the opportunity to say, "You know, that screen sharing thing is fine. Don't worry about
0:45:36it. Just go ahead and ship it." But when I see this comment and she's going out, she's been fighting
0:45:41them a long time, I'm sure she's frustrated and she's not going to have this job much longer. I
0:45:47think she's going to get replaced. I think her term is ending or something like that.
0:45:52I do not like the way that she phrases this because it comes across as, "I'm not here to
0:45:59help people who are being troubled by Apple's policies." This is more like, "Oh, everything
0:46:07Apple does is out to get you." Again, it's politics, it's rhetoric, but it very much
0:46:14makes me look at what they're doing more negatively than I have before. I see this statement
0:46:23kind of to me is similar to an opportunity she's taking in the same way that Apple took
0:46:30its opportunity to hold these features back. This is all politics, it's all grandstanding,
0:46:35right? She's… Oh yeah, 100%. She's punching back. She's punching back, right? And she's like,
0:46:41"Ah, look at them." But I find that there is a possibility in the statement that she's making
0:46:47where what she's kind of drawing to is that she believes Apple have a duty to release
0:46:56these AI features in the EU. And I am uncomfortable with the idea of a company being compelled to do
0:47:08something from a government in that way where they can say, "If you want to have this feature here,
0:47:16you must comply with our laws." It's very different to, "You should do that. No,
0:47:23you got to do that." You know what I mean? I think there is a fine line there.
0:47:27That's why it's so interesting and the way that Apple did this, I think it's why it's impossible
0:47:34to say, "Oh, Apple just did this for technical reasons." This is an important moment because
0:47:40everything up to now has been existing Apple features, existing Apple policy. This is the first
0:47:49true post-DMA feature drop. And Apple is making it clear that given the DMA, they either need to
0:48:03build all their features to be DMA compliant and everybody in the world is going to get that
0:48:09feature the same way, which is what Europe wants, I think. I think that's what the EC wants. Or
0:48:14Apple is going to build the most compelling product they can and then figure out whether
0:48:20it's going to be okay in Europe or not. And the result is going to be that Europe is going to lag
0:48:25behind in some of these features. Now, to be fair, this is US English only and Apple doesn't ship a
0:48:31lot of things in a lot of EU countries. There's so much stuff that they don't do, right? Apple TV is
0:48:38still not even available in certain countries. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. So it's more of that,
0:48:45but I think it is also Apple saying, "This is how we're going to play our game is we're going
0:48:51to build our features the way we want and then we'll figure out whether we need to make..." We're
0:48:56not going to delay a feature for a year, especially not AI where they absolutely have to ship it.
0:49:00We're not going to delay a feature in order to build it up with all of the things that we think
0:49:06that the European Commission might have a problem with. That is no way to build a feature. So I
0:49:13think Apple is saying, "We're just going to build our features and you tell us what's wrong with
0:49:19them and then we'll see." And so then logically the regulator's response to that is to stamp her
0:49:25feet and throw a tantrum because she wants Apple to do what she wants. And Apple's saying, "No,
0:49:32we're not going to do it that way and we are going to withhold features." She knows that makes them
0:49:37look bad. It absolutely does make them look bad because now they are put in a position of being
0:49:45the ones who are not protecting European citizens from big bad Apple by making Apple reform,
0:49:52but the people who are standing in the way of new features. And it may not be a big deal, but it's
0:49:58a thing. And so her response, I think, is logical in the sense that it's basically punching back and
0:50:05saying, "Oh, well, they're doing this. It's on them. They're doing this because they're evil,
0:50:09basically, instead of they're doing this because we have a very confusing set of rules and they
0:50:15don't know what to do, even if that's the case." But again, it's politics. I get it. I hope that
0:50:20there's a mechanism behind the scenes for features like this, once they've been announced, to have
0:50:25that conversation and say, "What do you think? Will this fly?" Because that's at the core of this,
0:50:32is Apple's basically putting down features and saying, "This is our feature. And do you object?"
0:50:38And there's no structure for that. Apparently, it's just backroom dealings, meetings. I don't know.
0:50:46I also just wanted to note, just because I think this is an interesting thing to be aware of for now
0:50:50and see where it goes over the next few months, Epic have submitted the Epic Game Store app
0:50:57marketplace and Fortnite to Apple for notarization. So they have said publicly they've
0:51:04done that. And they're saying they're planning to launch both within the coming months in the EU.
0:51:09We'll see what happens. We'll see, right? Because this is the shame of what has happened with those
0:51:15emulators, is for years now, Apple has been notarizing Mac apps in a way that was... People
0:51:25were worried it was going to be a de facto app store approval for all Mac apps. And they never
0:51:31did it. They never did it. And when they brought it to iOS, they said, in the EU, they said, "Well,
0:51:38it's going to be a little more stringent." Okay. But now everybody looks at notarization and says,
0:51:45"Is Apple going to play favorites? Is Apple going to enforce app store rules outside the app store?"
0:51:49Sure seems like some of that is going on with the emulators. So how do they feel about Epic,
0:51:56which you know they hate? Right? So we'll see. What could be argued, the whole reason all of
0:52:03this is happening in the first place, right? Is this. Yeah. Right? Right. But all eyes are on
0:52:08them and there is legal history between them and they are in the 1%, not the 99% of that Apple
0:52:15statement, right? About, "Oh, 99% of people won't care." And then there's the 1%. Like Epic Games is
0:52:21a large portion of that percent. So yeah, we'll see what happens. They may not be able to mess
0:52:26with them because it would be such a thing, but I've been surprised by Apple's behavior before.
0:52:33Yeah, exactly. This episode is brought to you by Factor. Warmer, sunnier days are calling. Fuel up
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0:54:00Snell household. Yes, I think there's no better endorsement and I'll just say it again, the fact
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0:55:40Room around uptime. We've got a bunch of stuff here today. It's a bit scattered. We'll start with
0:55:46Mark Gurman who is reporting that Apple is working on bringing Apple intelligence to the Vision Pro,
0:55:51but it won't be launching this year. Gurman says that the hardware capability in the Vision Pro is
0:55:57there. So we were wondering about this, right? That like the chips in theory seem like they would
0:56:02be powerful enough, but are they being overused? But Gurman says that the user interface is
0:56:07actually the main challenge here, getting that design right for the Vision Pro. Reading between
0:56:13the lines is also like it's not their main focus and that they are, you know. Well, it's lower
0:56:20priority than the iPhone and the iPad and the Mac. But as we thought actually when they announced
0:56:28Vision OS 2, I think the Vision OS track is just very different. First off, the product's only
0:56:34been out for a few months and I think there's going to be more going on with Vision Pro,
0:56:39hopefully over the next year. And this is a great example of that, which is Apple not comfortable
0:56:43talking about Apple intelligence on Vision Pro. I'm sure it's on the list, but they don't know how
0:56:47the next year is going to go. I'm sure it's on the list, right? And so this report says, yeah,
0:56:52they're thinking about it too. Of course they are. But you know, number one is to get it on the
0:56:57iPhone. That is number one. And then number two is the Mac and the iPad and then other stuff. So
0:57:05I get it. It is good news though, right? I mean, there was some fear that it was not going to be
0:57:10up to the challenge and it sounds like he did some deking and that it is up to the challenge
0:57:16of supporting Apple intelligence. So speaking of the list of priorities, something that may not be
0:57:21on that list at all is the HomePod. Marcus shared that Apple is currently not working on adding
0:57:26these features to the current HomePods because technically it just can't, like there's not a
0:57:32surprise. Not enough RAM, not enough processor. Why would you build, why would you build,
0:57:37I mean like a bunch of last year's iPhones don't support it, let alone a HomePod from a while ago.
0:57:43So here is a, this is a really interesting question. I think I'm going to write an article
0:57:47about this. Is Siri fragmentation, right? The idea that we're going to enter an era where some of our
0:57:53devices have new Siri and some don't, right? You've got, let's, maybe if you've got a qualifying Mac
0:58:01and iPad and iPhone, you'll have it on all. But what if you have like an M1 Mac, but an iPhone 15
0:58:09and an M2 iPad. And so like your iPhone doesn't have it, but your iPad and your Mac do. And then
0:58:18you throw in the HomePod and the Apple watch and it gets even wilder, right? Maybe you bought the
0:58:23latest and greatest and all of your Mac, iPad, iPhone, the trio have it. The trio, the Trinity,
0:58:33the Apple Trinity, the intelligent Trinity. But who's on the other side of that, right? Who's on
0:58:38the outside? Well, the HomePod and the watch are on the outside and they're both Siri driven,
0:58:42at least in part devices. They're devices that where Siri matters way more than it does on those
0:58:48other devices. What are they going to do? And I think it's a really interesting question that they
0:58:52did not address at all. And I had a few ideas of how they could do it. They could just not do it
0:58:59and say, you know what? Yeah, Siri sucks on the HomePod, sorry. Stay tuned for four years from now
0:59:05when we do something there. - 16 gigabytes of Ram in a HomePod. - Well, it feels like it's not going
0:59:10to happen, right? And the Apple watch is not going to have a chip. It's not gonna be able to have a
0:59:13chip that's capable of doing that level of on-device. So here's my theory, or there are a
0:59:18couple of them. You know the concept with the HomePod of personal requests? The idea there is
0:59:24that you're linking your iPhone essentially to the HomePod and it can make requests. And it's
0:59:30using, it's essentially using the information on your iPhone to do it. I wonder if there is a way
0:59:35to revise the HomePod's firmware so that if there's a device on the network with Apple intelligence,
0:59:43it basically farms it out, right? It basically says, hey, here's the command, give me Mac the
0:59:51response and have it, and if they could do that and have it be low enough latency, that the HomePod
0:59:56is basically a conduit for an iPad or a phone or even a Mac, but probably just like a phone,
1:00:02that the HomePod would then be smarter. Now it does mean that if that phone leaves the house
1:00:07and somebody wants to use the HomePod, it's dumb again, Siri fragmentation again, but it would be
1:00:15good to do that. The other way to do it would be to adjust their thing where they, you know,
1:00:22you've got five different Apple devices listening for your command all at once,
1:00:25and then it figures out contextually kind of like what device is supposed to actually get that
1:00:31command. You could tweak that if you were Apple so that in situations where there was a device
1:00:38listening with Apple intelligence, that it would always take it over the other devices, right?
1:00:44It's like, oh, there's a watch, a HomePod, and an iPhone 15 Pro. And I say, hey lady,
1:00:50ahoy telephone, play this song and have it go to the iPhone always because the iPhone is more
1:00:59capable. And maybe it says, do you want me to play that on this HomePod that's here in the room with
1:01:04us? And that would be great. So I feel like there are ways that Apple can do this. And the watch
1:01:10would be a similar sort of thing. The watch, if it's connected to its phone, now again, cellular
1:01:15watch, that's a lot harder. Can it phone home with cellular? What are the delays there? Maybe it just
1:01:22gets dumb if it's not near its phone buddy, but I feel like there's some stuff they could do.
1:01:29The question is, will they do any of that? Or are they like, no, too busy, too busy on just shipping
1:01:34it. We're not going to worry about those other devices. And my guess is that it's going to be
1:01:38both. My guess is this is all going to ship and it's just going to be Siri fragmentation all the
1:01:42way down. And that's just how it is. But I could see how maybe next year at WWDC, they say, here's
1:01:52a new thing we're going to do where we're going to intelligently process based on what device you've
1:01:57got, where the Apple intelligence processing happens. It's also possible that they could do
1:02:03something where they send it to the cloud, right? Because that's a thing that they're not doing now,
1:02:08where some devices they could, but they're not doing now the idea that right now a model will
1:02:15process it right now. I mean, in the future when this actually happens, but model processes and
1:02:19says, oh, this is going to be in the private cloud compute, and this is going to be local.
1:02:22And all the devices are the same for that, right? The iPhone 15 Pro and an M4 iPad and an M2
1:02:32Max Mac, all will just do the same thing. It'll either be on device or remote, but you could have
1:02:37an update for the watch that just, if there's no phone nearby, or even if there is just does
1:02:44private cloud compute for all of it. But again, they're too busy building those servers now just
1:02:49to do the certain tasks. They're not there yet. So that's my guess is that they're going to do
1:02:53something that allows HomePods and Apple watches to partake of Apple intelligence without actually
1:03:00running it the same way that these other devices do. But it's not going to happen this cycle,
1:03:04probably, because Apple is just working hard as they can to even ship it. And then maybe next June,
1:03:11they're like, hey, new feature of next year's HomePod OS is they will talk to a device that
1:03:20does Apple intelligence, or they'll talk to the cloud. I think that's how they're going to have
1:03:23to do it. Because I don't think they're going to ship a HomePod with eight gigs of RAM and an M1
1:03:29processor. I just don't think they are. I don't either, unless this really is the future of
1:03:37computing and every device has to take this massive jump. Never say never. But I think that
1:03:45given the cost of the HomePod and the market that it's in, they'd probably rather find a way to use
1:03:51your other Apple devices at the cloud rather than put all of the hardware specs in a music player.
1:03:56And the watch is another problem. The watch, just the battery, you can't. These specs are beyond
1:04:03anything that a watch can do now or I think in the reasonable future. So better off finding a hybrid
1:04:09approach to that, but it's just not going to be there for a while. I think we're going to have
1:04:14these stories, these Siri fragmentation stories are going to happen where it's like, oh,
1:04:17I said this thing and dumb Siri answered. And that's going to be a thing. It's going to happen.
1:04:22I think the savior of this scenario where they have these devices that just can't do it
1:04:27is that there are logical ways of dealing with this, as you laid out, which is that you either
1:04:34go to the cloud for everything from a certain type of device or you find the device that can
1:04:39answer the question. And it's not like, especially with the Apple watch, Apple has been here before.
1:04:46That was what the Apple watch was completely and still sometimes is depending on what you want.
1:04:51For sure. And there's a precedent here with the personal request thing on the HomePod
1:04:56of saying, I need information that a HomePod doesn't have. Can I attach this? So you could
1:05:02do that. Joe Steele points out the Apple TV is another example of this too. You could have that
1:05:07idea of art and it would be a setting. So you'd be like, no, no, I don't want this to know about
1:05:13all the stuff that's on my phone. It's like, okay, you don't have to do that. But if you set that up
1:05:18that Apple would be able to have its constellation of these ancillary devices,
1:05:23either go to the cloud or go to the smart device that's in your network. That's right over there.
1:05:29And in the background, say I'm using your iPhone's brain here and I'm using the semantic index on
1:05:35that iPhone to answer your question, even though I'm an Apple TV or an Apple watch or a HomePod.
1:05:41Mark Gurman has also shared that Apple continues to work with Google on a Gemini partnership for
1:05:46iOS 18 and it could be ready to announce this fall. This feels to me like something that they
1:05:52would be pretty well fit and I imagine they would probably like to try and match up to do during the
1:05:57iPhone keynote, like when they reintroduce iOS 18 again, you know, so like we also now have Google
1:06:02Gemini as an option as well as well as as well as ChatGPT. Although I don't think Google Gemini has
1:06:08the social awareness and interest that ChatGPT has, but it's at least something else they can
1:06:15offer. Google does have a hardware event next month in August. I think it's going to be really
1:06:20interesting to see, because it's pixels, right? What their response is going to be with with
1:06:27Gemini baked into their devices. I think that's going to be interesting. Gurman has another report
1:06:34at Bloomberg saying that Meta has been ruled out from a partnership perspective that Apple believes
1:06:40Meta's privacy policies are not stringent enough to be trusted through a partnership for integrating
1:06:45their llama model. Yes, also they hate them. This is what it is. I mean honestly like this just
1:06:51feels like something where these companies don't like each other because I don't, I would be very
1:06:56keen to understand how Meta is worse at their privacy with LLMs than OpenAI, Google or any of
1:07:03the other potential companies like Anthropic that they might work with. Like I don't, realistically,
1:07:08like I don't know what is Meta doing that Google's not doing, for example, right, for privacy. I
1:07:17don't buy this. This just feels to me very much like Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg hate each other
1:07:21and that's just the way this is going to roll. I think that Apple and Apple more broadly just
1:07:26views Meta as a company that doesn't value privacy at the same level that Apple does and will not.
1:07:32And this is following up by the way, there was a Wall Street Journal, I think, report that said
1:07:37Apple talked to Meta, which is very weird because it wasn't like when or what and then Gherman just
1:07:43came out the next day and said that's not happening. So whatever their source was,
1:07:48somebody at Meta was like, yeah, we called Apple about using our AI and we haven't heard back,
1:07:52but you never know. And then Gherman's like, no, that's not, that's not going to happen.
1:07:56- Moving on from Apple Intelligence, the Elec, which is a Korean website, has reported that Apple
1:08:05is looking for new suppliers for the type of OLED display that they use in the Vision Pro. These are
1:08:12the inside panels. So what you're looking at with your eyes, not the outside panels.
1:08:15These screens are interesting because they have Apple Silicon chips on the reverse side of them.
1:08:22I think the M2 chip is on one eye and the R1 chip is on the other eye. And that is helpful for
1:08:28latency and stuff like that. As long time this is the show, we know Sony is currently producing the
1:08:34panels in the Vision Pro, but it has long been said that they have a production limit of like 900,000
1:08:39screens, which is like 450,000 sets of screens per year with a lack of expansion opportunities.
1:08:46Apple has apparently contacted both LG and Samsung's display divisions who have used to
1:08:52create some new panels, but they have differing specs to what's in the Vision Pro. Essentially
1:08:57larger, a little bit, quite a bit larger, but at a lower resolution. So the current panels in the
1:09:01Vision Pro have a pixel density of 3,400 PPI. These new panels, it would be 1,700 PPI. So from
1:09:09this, I guess we could assume that they're investigating how to produce a lower cost,
1:09:15lower spec version of the Vision Pro. Yeah. I mean, it's possible that it's a larger panel
1:09:21that they would fit in. Um, so that, and use optical things to make it even smaller in your
1:09:28field of view. I mean, who knows, right? Cause pixel density doesn't say it could be a larger
1:09:34thing. If it's, it's also possible that, yeah, this is make us a cheaper thing that we can ship
1:09:38in volume and put in a $1,500 thing, right? Because the, one of the biggest costs as far as
1:09:44we can tell of the Vision Pro in terms of hardware are those displays. So a clear way to make a more
1:09:52affordable product is to make, is to use a more affordable pair of panels on the inside,
1:09:57but this comes back to how does it look and is it good enough for Apple's standards? Because if you
1:10:04are a company making an item and another company will buy every single one that you make,
1:10:12you can charge them a lot of money for that part, right? Like the power lies with Sony in this
1:10:19scenario. Like if Apple's buying all of the panels that Sony can make and they're hard to make,
1:10:24Sony's going to make them expensive. Why wouldn't you do that? So interesting. Yeah. As you said,
1:10:32like, I don't, I don't know. At first glance, I'd assume maybe this is for a cheaper version,
1:10:38but yeah, maybe it actually could just be for all of them. And they're able to,
1:10:42even though it's a different spec would, would be able to produce a similar result. I really don't
1:10:47know, but it's interesting to see them doing this because it, and it's also interesting to me to see
1:10:53that like this thing that we've been talking about for the last year or so about this, this production
1:10:58kind of ceiling that they have hasn't changed at all, but also it could be potentially that,
1:11:07I don't know, maybe Apple can't order more than them, the net amount anyway. So Sony isn't
1:11:13necessarily that inclined because it's not that the vision pro is ever sold out. Right. So,
1:11:20yeah, so it's interesting to see this, but we'll see what that ends up coming to.
1:11:24And Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that Apple is working on a new version of AirPods that feature
1:11:29infrared cameras. Kuo says that these cameras are specifically to be used for spatial computing
1:11:34enhancements. I'm going to read a quote here from Ming-Chi Kuo's medium, because I just need to read
1:11:42this quote because I don't know how to explain this otherwise. So Ming-Chi Kuo says, "The new
1:11:46AirPods are expected to be used in Vision Pro and future Apple headsets to enhance the user experience
1:11:51of spatial audio and strengthen the spatial computing ecosystem. For example, when a user
1:11:56is watching a video of Vision Pro and wearing these new AirPods, if a user turns their head
1:12:01looking a specific direction, the sound source in that direction can be emphasized to enhance
1:12:06the spatial audio computing experience." Interesting. It does this already.
1:12:12Yeah. It does this already.
1:12:15He's just described spatial audio.
1:12:18Spatial audio.
1:12:18Which exists already on the Vision Pro and on AirPods. Already exists.
1:12:22This is... Remember, we talk a lot here on the upgrade program about consider your source and
1:12:30consider what they know. Ming-Chi Kuo has very good supply chain sources. Supply chains, that's
1:12:37parts. So what he knows is that there is an infrared camera part that Apple is considering,
1:12:48is trying out, is using in samples, is talking to a factory about doing a bulk purchase.
1:12:57The hard invisible work that comes into assembling a product that ships in volume from Apple,
1:13:06you've got to... They don't make a lot of those parts. They got to source them. That's why the
1:13:10supply chain leaks. Okay? What Ming-Chi Kuo does not have great sources about is why.
1:13:19Maybe people were told something by Apple, but I would be surprised by that. I would think that
1:13:26Apple would say as little as possible about why they're using any part, right? Because that's the
1:13:31secret sauce is Apple is going to have software and it's going to integrate this and it's going
1:13:35to do amazing things. And then you go to a company that makes a very small infrared camera and you're
1:13:41negotiating and you're asking about the specs and you want samples, what are you going to say?
1:13:45So maybe this is part of that story, or maybe it's an extrapolation by somebody that
1:13:50Ming-Chi Kuo talked to, or maybe it's just Ming-Chi Kuo trying to put this in a context of,
1:13:56it could do this. But the actual explanation is literally a feature that already exists.
1:14:02So I think it's really interesting because we've talked a lot about the idea that
1:14:06having Apple devices be able to see when they're in your pocket or when they, you know,
1:14:13or on your wrist and don't have a camera, one way to do that would be to put them in AirPods.
1:14:19Although you've got lots of issues there about hair and, you know, but still it's an interesting
1:14:23idea to have some cameras so that your Apple intelligence iPhone, when you're walking down
1:14:30the street with AirPods in, it can see? And that's probably good for some features that you could
1:14:38imagine where it can actually see the world around you and interpret what you're doing.
1:14:42So I can imagine a whole lot of things, but this doesn't make sense.
1:14:48Right. That's interesting. I, because I've been like all day, I've been like, I don't understand
1:14:53what this would be for, but I guess, yeah, if you, if you're not actually taking pictures,
1:14:57but you just need the device to see it like an infrared camera could do that. So I can see
1:15:03and maybe with a very things see through hair, even maybe right. See through any of those
1:15:10distractions and just get you a view of the world around you so that that would be another input.
1:15:15It's like when we were talking about the humane pin, right? The one thing the humane pin had that
1:15:19I thought was very interesting was a camera looking at the world so that it could use that
1:15:25in its interpretation. You could ask it things, right? So that's interesting. That's an interesting
1:15:29idea. You don't need it for spatial audio though. No, this is no, I mean, look, all right, let's
1:15:38just imagine for us for a second that he's correct, right? That, that it would do this.
1:15:43That's not enough of a reason to put the cameras in the AirPods, right? Like that.
1:15:48Even if this was the case that this enabled better sound with a vision pro, that is actually not a
1:15:57good enough reason to put the sensors in AirPods. Maybe you'd put the sensors in the vision pro,
1:16:03right? But like you wouldn't put them in because he also says that these cameras could assist with
1:16:08in-air gesture recognition again. Sure. But like AirPods are not an essential part of the vision
1:16:15pro. Like you don't need them. And so you can't, it wouldn't make any sense to, to, to do, to pair
1:16:21them in that way. Right. No more likely you do gestures like the vision pro with other Apple
1:16:27devices, right? That's a more likely scenario. Yes. Is that you wear these and then you can put
1:16:32your hand up and go and tap your fingers together and it does something. It pauses the, the, what's
1:16:38playing or something like that. So you don't even need to squeeze your earbuds. That's what it would
1:16:43be for. Not vision pro. The AirPods are not going to, you're not going to put a new sensor in one of
1:16:51your best selling products that is essential for one of, for your lease selling product.
1:16:56It doesn't make sense. No, no, but so, so again, take the report for what it is, which is a report
1:17:03from the supply chain that Apple is talking about putting infrared cameras in AirPods. What does
1:17:08that mean? Which I, again, it comes from Ming-Chi Kuo. I believe it. I do believe that this is true.
1:17:14Doesn't mean that it will happen, but it probably means that it's far enough along for him to report
1:17:21it, which means that, yeah, it's, they probably got samples and they built samples and it's probably,
1:17:28I mean, right. Because just sniffing around Apple probably does a lot of that. So it's further down
1:17:32the road of product development. So I do, I, I believe that. I believe that, that Apple is
1:17:38working on this, but for what I don't believe what he says. It doesn't make sense. No.
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1:18:47And we appreciate if you will. Let's finish out today with some Ask Upgrade questions.
1:18:53First comes from Matthew who says, this is a big question, but I just wanted to get your, your
1:19:02first thoughts on it. Do you think Apple will ever make another product as successful as the iPhone?
1:19:08Um, if I have to answer yes or no, I'll say no. I would say no. I, I think the smartphone is a
1:19:19generation defining product that was the logical kind of like outcome of all of Apple's work with
1:19:27personal computing over the years. And while there are going to be other products, the chances of
1:19:37another tech products being bigger than the smartphone and Apple being a major player at
1:19:46the moment when that happens are low, not impossible. And I know Apple spends a lot of money
1:19:52so that if all of us just wear computer glasses in 30 years, that they're going to be based on all
1:19:57the work Apple's been doing up to now with vision pro like I get it, but I think the chances are
1:20:03that it will be somebody else. And who knows how long that will even be. I don't know about what
1:20:09that product, everybody wants to know. And everybody likes to imagine that it's just around the corner,
1:20:13but it may be that the smartphone is the thing for a long time. So, um, I just, I, I can't,
1:20:21when, when do you get the chance to go from a product category, basically not existing
1:20:27to basically, I know not everybody in the world, but a large percentage of people in the world
1:20:34having the product over an incredibly short amount of time that doesn't happen very often. And it
1:20:39happened with a smartphone. I don't think it's going to happen again for a while. And if it does,
1:20:44what are the chances that Apple is there? Not zero, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't bet on it.
1:20:50So I'll give a little spicy take on this. All right. So I also say no. And I think Apple would
1:20:56be a better company and would make better products if they were able to let go of this idea.
1:21:02I also think they would be more likely to make a product as successful as the iPhone if they stopped
1:21:09trying. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, there's something to be said for how much diversion
1:21:14Apple has done on cars and on vision pro and things like that instead of their core products.
1:21:20And would their core products more naturally emerge if they weren't busy playing those big
1:21:28bets on the deep stuff that may never happen? I think that's an interesting take. No way to prove
1:21:36it right or wrong, but yeah, there was a question like maybe Apple be an Apple. I don't think that
1:21:41Apple made the iPod thinking, well, this will get us into mobile devices and rehab our brand and
1:21:46eventually we'll be able to make a phone. I don't think they did that. I think they did that where
1:21:50they're like, hey, do you see this hard drive? We have like a music player, right? We just bought
1:21:57that music player sound jam and made iTunes. Let's do it. We can make a product around this
1:22:04hard drive. It emerged from kind of nowhere and went somewhere. And similarly, right? The iPhone
1:22:10was like they were trying to make a tablet computer. Right. And they couldn't do it. So
1:22:14they made a phone instead, start with a phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's an argument that
1:22:19there's some serendipity involved and that placing a big bet on a category that you just sort of
1:22:25think might be something later is not gonna give you serendipity. Yeah. What I'm saying is stop
1:22:31trying to make iPhone happen. This is essentially what I'm getting at. It happened.
1:22:36Jad asks, are you guys planning on giving the new Apple Mail a chance? Oh, I use Apple Mail on the
1:22:47iPhone and the iPad. So I will use it there and give it a try. But honestly, if Mime stream comes
1:22:57out for iOS, it might not be a try for very long. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on
1:23:05Apple. That's what I say. What? No, that's not a saying. Well, anyway, I've tried Apple Mail too
1:23:13many times and it's failed me too many times. And it frustrates me every time I get a new message
1:23:17and I tap on it and it says, I haven't downloaded the content of the new message yet. I just get so
1:23:23mad at it. So I can't see it. I've moved on from Apple Mail. So I may end up using it on my phone
1:23:34and my iPad, but that's it. What about you? It's interesting. I have a currently changing
1:23:42relationship with email, um, like where I'm using it and what I'm doing with it.
1:23:47At the moment, where I'm doing my email is on my Mac and sometimes on my iPad, not on my iPhone.
1:23:55And I use Spark for this. Um, the reason I use Spark initially had been for team sharing
1:24:03features and I still do that, but increasingly less as my responsibilities have changed at Relay.
1:24:11So like I am, initially there was a lot more conversation between me and Carrie, who deals,
1:24:16who was at the time kind of like my advertising assistant about the way that things are done. But
1:24:21now that Carrie is like runs that part of our business entirely, I am less involved in sharing
1:24:29emails back and forth with her that I'm receiving about ads. But now I use Spark for a bunch of
1:24:36other things that it does as well, like their automatic categorization of messages. Well,
1:24:42Apple Mail is saying, they're saying it will do that. So that's interesting to me. And I am
1:24:48intrigued about their email summarization stuff. I think that that is, it could be pretty cool. So
1:24:54I'm willing, I am actually willing to give it a chance. Like I want to see what it's all about
1:24:59when it, when it launches, because I think it will give me everything I need except for team sharing.
1:25:03But over time, my requirement for team sharing is becoming less and less and less, where really now
1:25:09I could just forward an email to Carrie like you would back in the old days, you know, but because
1:25:13we don't really, we used to have a lot of in-line conversations about emails, but that is happening
1:25:17way less frequently. So I'm willing to give it a shot because I think for the first time in years,
1:25:23they've actually announced some genuine features from mail, which are interesting to me,
1:25:27and some stuff that I've not seen other people do, like the idea of giving you the summary in the
1:25:34inbox of an email instead of the first couple of lines for messages, I think is genuinely a
1:25:39very smart thing to do. So I'll be willing to give it a go. All right. I mean, like I said, I use it
1:25:45on my phone and my iPad. And so I look forward to seeing those features there. And I'm not so sure
1:25:53about my Mac. I'll try it out for the purposes of the review, but I'm very happy with my third party
1:25:59mail client at this point. I like MimeStream. I just can't use it as my only email client because
1:26:05I also use iCloud email. So I just can't use it. And John wants to know, have you put on your quest
1:26:15since you bought the Apple Vision Pro? I have. I have not used it as much as I actually would like
1:26:24because I kind of miss some of the stuff that I used to use it with. It's just, it's very hard
1:26:29for me to like find headset time in general. And then I feel like if I'm going to do headset time,
1:26:34I need to do vision pro headset time, but I do miss some of the games, especially. I have tried
1:26:41it though. And what struck me about it is that it's better than I thought having used the vision
1:26:53pro. I think it's fine. I think for the price, it's actually kind of great. The quality isn't as good.
1:27:01Obviously the hand tracking without controllers is not as good, but it's functional in a way that
1:27:11when I got the Quest 2, especially, it was not. They've obviously put some work into having you
1:27:16be able to use hand tracking and not use the controllers, but really it is a controller first,
1:27:21I would say, experience. And they're trying more mixed reality things. It's fine. I did not
1:27:32put it on and go, "Ooh, ick, this is terrible," and get it away. I didn't do that.
1:27:39But I do find, I'll reference my rant earlier about hand controllers, just to say,
1:27:45that's what I miss with the vision pro is all those games that are really enabled by precision
1:27:51input that it doesn't offer. So that's like my ping pong game, Beat Saber, stuff like that.
1:27:56So I had a Quest Pro, which I was using mostly for work and meeting stuff. I've not put it on
1:28:04since I got the vision pro. And that was for me, the big thing is that if I use the Quest Pro for
1:28:10an hour, I would get a headache. I don't know what exactly it was that was making that happen,
1:28:16but it is not a thing I feel with the vision pro at all. And I have used the vision pro for much
1:28:20longer periods of time, but I do miss Horizon Workrooms, which was the app that me and Grey
1:28:27would sometimes use to have meetings. I like the focus that it had around working and everything
1:28:34you needed was inside of the application. I know that, and I have had calls and meetings of people
1:28:41using Spatial Personas, like we had one just last week, and I can replicate all of the features
1:28:46individually with different apps and experiences, but Workrooms did a really good job of making
1:28:51everything right there. So there was a whiteboard feature that you could just bring up inside of it.
1:28:57They had these office environments that you would sit in, which just felt good. There were desks
1:29:01and stuff. It felt like a meeting more than we're hanging out on the beach together, which the vision
1:29:05pro is like. You're in a shared space, you could bring your computer in front of you, you could
1:29:11share it with other people really easily. It was a purpose built app for meetings, which I have not
1:29:17found something that replicates those features on the vision pro, but I way prefer a Spatial Persona
1:29:24call and how they look and feel to how the Horizon Workrooms calls look. I don't like the avatars
1:29:32and stuff like that. I much prefer actually the floating heads and hands of my friends.
1:29:38And me and Jason can high five now and it makes fun sound effects when you do it.
1:29:41- It does make a sound effect when they... If you headbutt somebody or you put your hand in
1:29:46their face, it does not make a fun sound effect. But if you touch hands, it does.
1:29:50- It should just be like, "Ahh," if you do that, to try and stop you from doing it.
1:29:55If you would like to send us in a question to answer in a future episode of the show,
1:30:01or you have some follow-up or feedback, please go to upgradefeedback.com and you can fill out
1:30:06our form there and send it in. Thank you to everybody that does this every week. I appreciate
1:30:10you. You can check out Jason over at sixcolors.com. You can hear his shows on Relay FM and the
1:30:16incomparable.com. You can hear me on Relay FM too. You can check out my product work at
1:30:20clautexbrand.com. Jason is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L. I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E. If you would like to watch
1:30:29video clips of the show and see the upgrade t-shirts that we wear every single week.
1:30:34And also, I'm assuming there will be a clip of when Jason launched the America quiz on me. So
1:30:42you'll see how red my face went when I understood what was happening. You can see us on TikTok,
1:30:48Instagram, and YouTube, where we are @upgraderelay on all of those. Thank you to our members who
1:30:54support us every week of Upgrade Plus. Go to getupgradeplus.com to learn more. Thank you to
1:30:59Factor and ExpressVPN for the support of this episode. But most of all, thank you for listening.
1:31:04Until next time, say goodbye Jason Snow. Goodbye Mike Hurley.
1:31:20[ Silence ]