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The Talk Show

411: ‘An Acoustic Nightmare’, With Tyler Stalman

 

00:00:00   I feel like we need an introduction. First time on the show, Tyler Stallman. Welcome. You tossed

00:00:05   out the idea of coming on a show, and I know that I wanted somebody specifically to talk iPhone 16

00:00:11   camera. Here you are. Tell the audience for people who aren't familiar with you, what's your

00:00:16   background? What do you do? I think I'm pretty well qualified for it. I mean, my whole job background

00:00:20   was starting in stock photography at Getty Images and iStock Photo, and that turned into shooting

00:00:27   and talking about it on social media. So half of my life is my wife and I have a photo video

00:00:32   production company. It's just like commercial work, sort of traditional. We go in there and

00:00:36   get pictures of people smiling so you can sell your product. And then the other half is social

00:00:42   media. And so part of that is shooting for my wife, which is a little more influencer lifestyle

00:00:46   side. And then my stuff is more tech and creative production. So I kind of use YouTube and my

00:00:53   podcast to talk about how we do the professional side of our production, and that's been a pretty

00:00:58   good blend. And then what fits best for today is that my YouTube career has sort of been built off

00:01:04   of having successful camera-specific iPhone reviews every year. I'm not really reviewing

00:01:09   the whole phone, I'm just pushing the camera as hard as I can, using it for work, going into

00:01:14   detail on every feature. Obviously, Austin Mann's been doing this for a long time with his articles,

00:01:19   and I'm doing the video version of that. And also, Sebastian, there's a few of us that dig in deep,

00:01:24   but I try to go as hard as I can. Right, Sebastian DeWitt of Halide, or Luxe Camera is the company,

00:01:30   but makers of Halide and now Kino. I believe it's Kino. Is it Kino or Kino? Yeah, it is Kino,

00:01:35   yeah, which I've worked with them on a little bit. There's a preset in there with my name on it.

00:01:40   Yes, there is. We'll get to that. But this is why I feel like you really are in the sweet spot to

00:01:47   talk about this. And you've even addressed one of my questions. Are you more a professional working

00:01:54   photographer who does social on the side, or are you more of a social media person who also does

00:02:00   commercial stuff on the side, and it sounds like it's sort of 50/50? Yeah, it depends on the season.

00:02:05   Like the last few weeks was like commercial. It's kind of horrible because the iPhone's coming out,

00:02:08   which is my big social season. That's like when my content gets the most views, but our commercial

00:02:13   work just picked up like crazy, and I kind of had to choose between the two. So it depends what's

00:02:17   going on at the moment, but we've always just tried to give both as much attention as we can.

00:02:22   All right. I will, I promise, link in the show note, you have two new videos. The one is your

00:02:28   iPhone 16 camera review, and then the next one, which you just released yesterday, was

00:02:32   what's on your iPhone, sort of a tools and settings type thing. And so those links will

00:02:38   definitely be in the show notes. I sort of actually have an outline here, which is unusual

00:02:44   for me for the show. And I thought, let's talk camera control first, because it's the one new

00:02:52   thing in the iPhone 16 that is true for, it's A, it's true for all, it's there in all iPhone 16

00:02:58   models, which I think is awesome. And it's the one new thing that I think is applicable to everybody,

00:03:06   no matter how casual use of the iPhone camera they are, right? There's a button now.

00:03:12   And you and your review brought up something that I kind of feel the same way about both

00:03:19   of these issues. A, where the button is on the side, and B, is it too finicky?

00:03:26   Well, first I'll pat myself on the back a little for that last year in my iPhone 15 review,

00:03:32   I was talking about the action button and I was like, the placement doesn't help with photography.

00:03:36   I've been using it to launch my camera, but we need a button here. And I kind of pointed

00:03:40   to where it's going. I should be the most excited about camera control. Like having an extra camera

00:03:45   feature that's hardware and dedicated to photography and video is a big deal to me. But

00:03:50   I did find in the end, I mean, quickly within a day, it was way too finicky. I had to turn

00:03:57   off the half press, the soft touch features. I mean, really trying to make it work for myself.

00:04:03   I want to do this. I would end up completely changing a setting a few times a day. It just

00:04:08   kept happening. And like I was saying, we were actually doing client work during this, so I can't

00:04:13   ruin it. I'll be in trouble if I've suddenly turned the exposure way down in the middle of

00:04:17   the shot or switched the tone profile or whatever it is. I need to just keep my settings the way

00:04:22   they are. And, um, yeah, unfortunately I just had to turn off those additional controls and

00:04:28   they're beautiful. Like they seem great, but it wasn't working. There's a shot in your video

00:04:33   while you're talking about this and you're holding the phone in your hand in your right hand. So the

00:04:40   media in, I have this thing over the side. Yeah. Your Palm is touching it because you're holding

00:04:46   it in tall screen orientation and you're talking about it. And while you're talking about it,

00:04:50   your Palm actually changed the current setting. Exactly. It like moved the exposure down two

00:04:56   clicks or something. I forget which setting it was on, but you said that actually was

00:05:00   accidental right there in shot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it kept, it really kept happening.

00:05:05   It was not once or twice. Otherwise I might've tried to live with it a few more weeks, but

00:05:08   yeah, it was pretty often. And one thing about that, I think a lot of the reviews are focusing

00:05:14   on that for horizontal. Um, it is, it's kind of designed for that, right? Like when you're holding

00:05:20   your phone vertically, it's not quite as optimized. So when you turn it sideways like a traditional

00:05:24   camera, your finger kind of lines up in the right place. But for me anyway, and a lot of people that

00:05:30   use phones for creation, social media is vertical for the most part, other than YouTube, everything

00:05:37   else is vertical. So we spend a lot of time taking vertical content. So almost entirely what I'm

00:05:42   using my phone for when it's horizontal, it's going to be a big camera. So I need that format

00:05:48   to work for me and it definitely was a little awkward. So before I say too much bad about it,

00:05:53   I do want to say that taking the photo works well. So I haven't deactivated the button,

00:05:57   just those additional controls. Do you think the placement, so Apple's explanation for why it's

00:06:03   not closer to the corner, which is where I want it to be. Cause I'm old and shoot almost everything

00:06:08   horizontal. Yeah. Their explanation is that they wanted to find the sweet spot for shooting both

00:06:14   horizontal and vertical. And that does make some sense to me, but do you think it's usable? I do.

00:06:21   Cause I think the tip, the other thing is when you shoot vertical, most people shoot one handed. It

00:06:27   definitely there's no reason to shoot two handed. And so you can grip the phone and kind of put your

00:06:33   thumb there, but it's almost like you want it even higher. You kind of want it where the power button

00:06:40   is, right? Well, the thing is I find for vertical triggering often triggering the shutter is pretty

00:06:47   easy with the volume up button just based on where my hand sits anyway. And I use a regular size pro.

00:06:53   I don't use the max and my pointer finger just ends up in kind of just the right place to press

00:06:58   the volume up. And then the other way I've actually been triggering it is like you were saying with my

00:07:02   palm, I can just squeeze with my palm and launch the camera as well. So there's now there's if I

00:07:08   squeeze either side of the phone, I can take a photo, which is sort of interesting in it,

00:07:12   but I do like this ability to have many different ways into the camera. Like some people were

00:07:17   customizing their home screen to now it launches the calculator app instead of the camera because

00:07:22   they're like, well, I already have other ways into the camera. I want every way into the camera. I

00:07:25   like having maximal access, but yeah, that position thing. I mean, I said the same that

00:07:29   it feels like it should be further down. That's probably, but I hadn't heard Apple's explanation.

00:07:36   You're probably right about that. That maybe the vertical optimization is worth it. But I even did

00:07:40   have a phone clamp that a lot of phone clamps, not all of them, but some of them, they hold the

00:07:46   middle of the phone. So if you're putting your phone on tripod, you have to avoid the power

00:07:50   button that definitely can't be squeezed, but you can pretty easily end up squeezing the camera

00:07:55   control button as well. Here's my wildcard thought on the placement of this. Obviously a lot of

00:08:01   creators shoot both ways, right? There's plenty of people who shoot tons, both vertical and horizontal,

00:08:07   but I think it's like you said, when you are shooting vertical, the volume buttons are much

00:08:14   more accessible to use as a shutter. If you want a hardware button to start the video or to snap

00:08:21   a photo or something like that, I've used them for years shooting still photos without the camera

00:08:29   control button. I've used the buttons and it never doesn't feel weird to have a button on the bottom

00:08:36   that you press up, right? I've probably almost certainly shot more photo. I don't think there's

00:08:44   any doubt now that I think about it. I've shot more photos on iPhones than I have on

00:08:50   cameras in my life. Even though I've shot a lot of photos with my Canon DSLR, my Canon film

00:09:01   SLR before that, and my beloved Ricos over the years, my little pocket ones, I had shot

00:09:08   thousands of photos with the Fuji X100S, which I got before those Fuji X100s became sort of like...

00:09:17   Where the autofocus got good? Yeah, well, the X100S, the autofocus is maybe not up to your

00:09:23   standards. That was the whole upgrade over the original X100, or I think the original didn't

00:09:28   have the letter. The X100S was the second gen, but like the X100V was like impossible. It was like

00:09:34   backordered for eight months a couple of years ago. Great camera. I've shot thousands of photos

00:09:38   with those, but it just feels weird to me to have a shutter button on the bottom that you press up,

00:09:44   but I use it. I just can't help but feel though that the camera control... I don't know. Even now,

00:09:52   three weeks into owning this, I still want it more in the corner. It's like I've gotten used to it,

00:09:58   my finger knows where it is, but I still want it more in the corner for shooting horizontal,

00:10:03   and I just can't help but feel that for shooting horizontal, we needed a button up there

00:10:10   more than vertical shooters needed a button over there. And here's my theory, is that the thing

00:10:20   Apple doesn't really want to talk about too much right now, because the feature is not out yet,

00:10:24   is that the other thing that camera control is going to do at some point, I think they've said

00:10:30   by the end of the year, is it's also going to be the thing that you launch for visual intelligence

00:10:35   with Apple intelligence. That's the feature where it's not shooting a photo or taking a video,

00:10:41   you press and hold all the way the button, like the way that you press and hold the power button

00:10:46   to bring up Siri, you press and hold this button, and the Apple intelligence will use the camera to

00:10:52   see what... Apple's example was you pointed at a restaurant on a corner and say, "Hey, what's this

00:10:57   restaurant?" And then it gives you the Yelp reviews and the reservations and stuff like that.

00:11:02   Yeah, I expect that's a huge part of the whole reason for adding this. I almost don't know if

00:11:06   they would have added it without that extra incentive. I think we're really, we obviously

00:11:12   over the last few years, we've already completely changed our relationship with both what is it,

00:11:16   what is the photo, but also what the purpose of imagery coming into our devices is. And especially

00:11:23   younger generations, like the purpose isn't necessarily to capture something significant

00:11:27   at all. Obviously, a lot of it's scanning license plates and just like documenting basic things,

00:11:31   but this ability to just look around and the data becomes useful to you in some way,

00:11:37   I think is going to be a huge bet. The thing that sold me on it more was actually OpenAI's

00:11:42   demo of, I guess, I don't know what they were running, but in the example of visually impaired

00:11:47   guy was walking around town, looking at the city as he goes through his phone,

00:11:52   and it's just giving him information about what's in front of him, describing the ducks diving into

00:11:57   the pond and telling him when the taxi's coming. And I don't know if that was actually a running

00:12:01   demo, but when I first saw that I'm like, oh yeah, this can be, this is going to be so incredibly

00:12:08   powerful in so many ways. And the little demos that Apple can represent in the keynote in 2024

00:12:13   are really just the tip of the iceberg. And I think they're betting that could, there's a chance

00:12:21   that could become the more significant way that we interact with our cameras even more than creating

00:12:26   our own memories. I mean, who knows if that's going to happen, but somebody out there is is

00:12:31   betting on it. Right. And I feel the same way. It's like, I'm thinking about it. And even in my

00:12:39   iPhone review, I included the Apple intelligence features that are already available in 18.1,

00:12:45   which I just don't think are that big a deal. And they're coming soon. So I don't think it was,

00:12:52   I didn't feel like I totally agree with your take on it. Like I think calling them the AI branding

00:12:57   almost didn't need to be there. You know, if the world was a little different around Apple would

00:13:01   have called the machine learning and yeah. And not don't worry about what type of machine learning it

00:13:07   was used. But I do think that this feature I, and even though I was writing about Apple intelligence,

00:13:14   I'm I wrote about camera control only in the context of actually using it for video and photos.

00:13:20   But I really, I agree with you. I don't think this button gets added this year.

00:13:24   If it's not for the visual intelligence feature in Apple intelligence, right? It's so we, you as a

00:13:33   professional photographer and me as a devout prosumer amateur photographer who cares about it,

00:13:41   we get this button and we get to talk about it in the context of photography. But it's I think

00:13:46   the reason that whoever on the camera team within Apple has pro I'm sure some people within Apple

00:13:54   have been pushing for a hardware button for the camera for years. If that's your thing at Apple,

00:13:59   of course, you'd like to do that. I think it's Apple intelligence, though, in this visual

00:14:03   intelligence feature that made it happen this year. And that sort of defines where it goes on

00:14:09   the phone so that it's you can hold your phone up and down vertically and get a good grip, keep a

00:14:15   good grip on it, and use your mash the button and hold it in with your thumb while saying, hey,

00:14:20   what's this? Where am I? What should I do? It's like, also, if I put myself in the shoes of

00:14:25   somebody that's never used an iPhone before, which those people are born every day, there's always

00:14:29   somebody that is going to just start using their iPhone. If I was building new habits, I could see

00:14:34   that being the default way that I start interacting with the camera. Period. It's it's the biggest

00:14:40   bluntest instrument really compared to the swiping right from the main screen, which is pretty easy,

00:14:45   or the button, like all those things are slightly more abstract than this button will always do this

00:14:50   thing. It's physical. I love physical control, especially if I'm reviewing a camera. I really

00:14:56   dislike when too many features are buried in menus, you want as much as possible, especially

00:15:00   in the professional context, exposed physically, that your muscle memory always goes in the same

00:15:06   place. So a new iPhone user like that, sort of like our discussions of well, how often am I

00:15:12   going to use that? And I might launch it from this other screen position. I think a lot of people

00:15:17   will just start with this button and get used to it. And that will be how the camera that'll be the

00:15:22   main path into the camera for a lot of new users. Yeah, I think it's certainly true for me. And

00:15:27   again, I'm coming at it from a decidedly amateur perspective, but I do care about my photos. But

00:15:33   even people who I know who are pros have extremely strong opinions about the physical buttons and

00:15:41   dials on the kit. Even stronger opinions than the rest of the internet. Yes, I hung out in the DP

00:15:46   review forums enough to see those opinions. And people do have opinions about the, you'd think

00:15:52   that image quality is all that matters to a pro photographer. And maybe it's always the first

00:15:56   thing, but all of the major brands have excellent image quality, right? You're not, nobody is going

00:16:02   to say, oh, don't ever buy a Nikon. You get crap pictures from their sensors, right? That's just

00:16:08   not true. But it's, but people will argue, I can't stand where Nikon puts the dial for this, because

00:16:15   either they really have a preference for work, Canon or Sony or whoever else does it. Or they're

00:16:21   just habituated to the way that the brand they had does it right. And you can do things like if

00:16:28   you haven't used a Canon DSLR in 10 years, and you pick up a new one, there's a familiarity with where

00:16:34   the controls, some of the most used controls are placed. Yeah, I posted a little meme post the

00:16:40   other day compared, people were like, look, the iPhone hasn't changed in five years or whatever

00:16:44   the design's basically the same. So I posted the Canon One N, which is their like film pro body,

00:16:52   and the new R1. And side by side, you can't tell which one is which. I mean, they're like 30,

00:16:57   40 years apart in release. And it's like, this is looks like the identical camera. And I think also

00:17:02   speaking to Fuji that you're mentioning, like their whole comeback, because they weren't making

00:17:08   important cameras for quite a few years. Their comeback was that X100 and putting physical

00:17:14   controls where people wanted them. Like it was all about interface. They were like, image quality is

00:17:19   fine, but using this camera is delightful. You want to have it with you. You want to see it on

00:17:24   a strap and you want to hold it. And the physical interaction is a huge part of, I think even why

00:17:29   people buy a camera at all is the object. They look for me too. I want something that is beautifully

00:17:35   designed and feels good to have on me. Have you ever used an X100 series? Absolutely. Yeah. One

00:17:42   of my first, if you search YouTube for the first X100, that's one of the earliest videos you'll

00:17:47   find on me doing with the guys from the Camera Store TV, DP Review, and now Petapixel. They live

00:17:51   in the same city as me. So we've worked together on a lot of videos over the years. Because the

00:17:56   other thing, it's funny, it is a digression, but I've been thinking about that camera a bit this

00:18:01   week. It is such a digression, but in the context of the meta Orion AR prototypes. Okay. Do you see

00:18:10   where I'm going? Is it the pass-through viewfinder? Yeah. Yeah. So for people out there who don't know

00:18:17   the X100 series, I don't think there's any other camera that does this. It's not a pocket-sized

00:18:22   camera, but it has a fixed lens. You don't interchange lenses. It's like a fixed, I think,

00:18:27   28 millimeter equivalent lens. And you can look through the viewfinder and there's just a button

00:18:36   that you hit. And it's either looking through like an old school, just totally optical, like just

00:18:41   actually not electronic at all, or you hit a button and you can see the electronic version

00:18:48   of what the sensor is getting. And you can just switch between them on the fly. And so like in

00:18:55   super bright sunlight, noontime on a sunny summer day, at least on my old X100S, there were times

00:19:03   where the digital sensor just, it would be too blown out. You really couldn't get a good preview

00:19:08   of the image. Whereas you could just look through the glass and see it. And sometimes like for me,

00:19:14   like at night in dark, you want the electronic one because you actually get, I can see more than my

00:19:21   eye can see. And I used both a lot, but it does remind me of the difference between AR glasses,

00:19:29   where you're just looking through the glasses and VR passthrough. Right. Yeah. I spent a lot of time

00:19:36   thinking about the influence of switching to mirrorless and always viewing things digitally

00:19:41   compared to when we were living in the mirrorless world and you were looking at reality. Like

00:19:44   actually every time I have an optometrist appointment, I've tried to ask them and

00:19:49   I've never got a clear answer. When you are looking, if you're looking through a viewfinder

00:19:52   of a camera, are your eyes focusing infinitely or are they focusing close? They're all like,

00:19:59   I don't think I'm qualified to answer. And same, I was asking with the vision pro, I asked that in

00:20:03   my briefing about it as well. And I'm almost certain the answer is that you are focusing

00:20:08   at infinity. You're focusing at the distance your eyes perceive. I don't think you're focusing

00:20:12   millimeters from your eye, but it changes things like that. Is it very, it is a totally different

00:20:17   experience than physically seeing the world. And like you said, the way the X100 does it,

00:20:20   especially that camera, I mean, came out in 2011 and did it so well, like even another way that

00:20:26   it works is you can have real world viewing. Most of the time, there's little displays that hover

00:20:31   over it just like on, well, not just the lines infinitely more impressive. You can see little

00:20:35   controls that are sort of hovering over reality. And as you take the button, it seamlessly flips

00:20:41   over to a digital preview of what you just took for 0.5 seconds and comes back to reality. And

00:20:46   it's such a refined experience that they did since the first version. But yeah, I get the comparison.

00:20:52   Yeah. And it totally makes me see, it confirms my belief that AR glasses are the way to go. I mean,

00:21:02   it's a total digression, the competitive stance of a prototype versus a shipping product. But

00:21:08   it just reminds me of, yeah, AR glasses are absolutely the way to go. And

00:21:12   it's a huge part of the success of that camera line. Do you have, with the camera control,

00:21:18   do you, did you find yourself shooting a lot of accidental photos?

00:21:22   No, actually very few. It didn't end up being an issue somehow for me. For me,

00:21:28   it definitely is. But then not take the photo, but four, five, six, seven, eight,

00:21:34   I'm counting the ones in my deleted. Hopefully they're countable. Hopefully it's not in the

00:21:40   hundreds. No. Yeah. I would say I have about 30 of them. Maybe, but the fewer and fewer as the

00:21:47   days go on. Training yourself out of it. Yeah. I've trained myself not to do it. I've gotten

00:21:52   around this just by getting used to the camera, but it's like my camera habit is that I want a

00:21:58   button that is as I'm taking the phone out of my pocket, I'm hitting this button and I expect that

00:22:04   by the time it's in front of my face, it's on and ready to shoot, which is how like my Ricoh GRD

00:22:10   works. I just have to give up on doing that with camera control because the problem is that if the

00:22:16   screen is locked and you hit the prep, mash this camera control button, it just wakes the screen.

00:22:22   And then when the screen is awake, even though it could still be locked, you have to hit the button

00:22:26   again. And I've just given up on it and I just take the phone out. Wait till I know the screen

00:22:33   is deaf. You know, well, I think the habit you need to build is you just pull it out,

00:22:37   mashing on it the whole time coming out of your pockets. But then I get the accidental photos.

00:22:43   And that's the other thing too, is it's like, well, I just lived with a bunch of photos I have

00:22:46   to delete. I don't know. Yeah. Moving on from camera control. Actually, let's take a break.

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00:25:50   to find out more go to squarespace.com/talk show for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch,

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00:26:15   Next on my list was talking about sort of going up the ladder of professional features,

00:26:23   photographic styles. And your video explained something to me that I think should have been

00:26:29   obvious, but really wasn't to me until I watched your review, which is that when you start in a

00:26:38   list of photographic styles on an iPhone 16, it starts at standard, which makes sense. But to the

00:26:44   left and to the right are two different sets of photographic styles. And it didn't make as much

00:26:52   sense to me until I watched your video. Can you explain the difference between the ones to the

00:26:56   left and the ones to the right? Yeah, I don't know that Apple really did explain it. So you kind of

00:27:02   have to, well, there's, you know, they're labeled a little bit. I know the left is called undertones

00:27:06   and I forget what the right is called. I'm going to call them filters. But that's not what they

00:27:10   call them. Yeah, no, it's something else. But you know, it looks like Instagram filters or something,

00:27:17   right? You can really see it though, as you flip through them, that the undertones are really meant

00:27:23   to be similar to what you'd have in camera profiles in a bigger mirrorless camera. There's

00:27:29   always a few different settings you can have like portrait and landscape and simple things like

00:27:33   that. Except all of the undertones are sort of designed around skin is the way that Apple

00:27:37   presents it. And they don't, they still don't have a really massive effect. It is basically

00:27:45   targeting more or less targeting the warmth of the image, they can have warmer or cooler presets,

00:27:49   and they preserve good looking skins throughout that. So they're a lot gentler and a lot subtler

00:27:58   than the right side, the side that's not called filters, where those are just called mood. Okay,

00:28:05   mood that that word is fitting for it are a lot more aggressive. They look like you have changed

00:28:10   the whole image. And I'm sure Apple is still targeting different areas. From their perspective,

00:28:16   they're targeting different areas. For myself, the way that I process an image, it does not feel

00:28:21   targeted enough. I mean, skin tones are not preserved, the sky is going to go purple,

00:28:27   your shadows are going to turn bright yellow, or it's very has a lot of opinions about what your

00:28:34   image could look like. And I was disappointed. But well, I wouldn't say disappointed because I've

00:28:39   actually never seen great presets built into any device except Fuji cameras. Honestly, Fuji is

00:28:45   still the only one that have that film emulation dialed in where this looks like it could be a

00:28:52   finished image. Every other camera, professionals will always change the way that it looks like

00:28:58   people say they love Canon colors, but pros using Canon are changing those colors a lot all the

00:29:04   time. And there just have not been many examples of great built in colors. And I unfortunately,

00:29:09   I don't think Apple knocked it out of the park with that that whole mood section, which they

00:29:14   could have right. Like the way that portrait 400 looks people still shoot film because it looks a

00:29:20   certain way. And there was definitely no ambition to go after that. And it's always been strange to

00:29:25   me because there's this huge cottage industry of people that make presets and lots and different

00:29:31   like I do it too. And it's, we're all going at, we're all just trying to make it look like Kodak

00:29:36   and Fuji from the nineties. And it just seems like Apple's not interested in that, which is

00:29:40   what's even stranger to me is that Kodak and Fuji have never gotten the business of licensing

00:29:46   the color science of like, here, look, if you install this, you can say you've got portrait

00:29:52   on your cameras and it actually responds similarly to how the film did. Apple didn't really do that.

00:29:57   And I don't plan on using the mood ones at all. Whereas the undertones there, they are definitely

00:30:02   a bit more useful and I'm probably going to be sticking to Amber pretty much full time on it.

00:30:07   There is an interesting, I've mentioned this recently and I'm always forgetting the exact

00:30:13   essay that he had, but Benedict Evans had an essay a few years ago about

00:30:18   how the basic idea is easy to explain, but it's that when technologies get innovated out of

00:30:26   business, it's like this sort of along the lines of the innovators, the dilemma thing. It's often

00:30:32   why they don't see the innovation coming is that they're at the best they've ever been. And his

00:30:39   example is like pass it, propeller based passenger planes from like the fifties and sixties before

00:30:46   jets came in and just completely eliminated them. I mean, when's the last time anybody's flown on a

00:30:52   commercial airline with a propeller, but the like last generation of those big body

00:30:58   planes were like the nicest, smoothest rides. And they were in some ways better than the first

00:31:05   generation of jets. They just were less efficient and so they got went out. And this same thing

00:31:10   happened with film versus digital, right? It's film never looked better. Whether you were shooting

00:31:17   still photography with a 35 millimeter camera or like major motion pictures,

00:31:22   it never looked better than right before digital cameras came in and just sort of,

00:31:27   obviously people still shoot film and it's having a little bit of renaissance and there's people

00:31:32   like Christopher Nolan who will go through the effort of still shooting major motion pictures

00:31:37   on film, but it's the exception rather than the norm. And it's because the camera industry spent

00:31:45   over a hundred years getting to that point of getting pictures that are so pleasing to the human

00:31:52   eye. And it's not that Portra 400 was super realistic. Oh, go back to the scene of the photo,

00:31:59   hold up your print. And it's yes, this looks exactly like what my naked eye sees in the real

00:32:03   world. No opposite almost. Yeah, right. It's the opposite, but not in a kitschy over stylistic way.

00:32:11   It's more like a dreamlike idealized version of the image, right? And that you can,

00:32:18   I think it goes to why Apple, I think Apple chose not to use filters because they don't

00:32:23   want to call these filters, but it's why, what other word could they use? Mood is what they're

00:32:28   chasing, right? And that's what people who had photographers who know their film stocks,

00:32:33   why they have an affinity for certain films or why they would pick a certain film stock

00:32:38   to give a feeling or flavor to what they're shooting. That just was right there. Not that

00:32:45   processing wasn't part of the job, but that the film itself had a certain flavor just right when

00:32:51   the light hits the film. This is something I spent a lot of time thinking about. If I were to make a

00:32:57   documentary right now, it would be about the years where digital blew up, which that was like, as I

00:33:05   started my career, you know, when I was in college, which were more for design than photography, but

00:33:10   all my photo friends were transitioning those few years. They were closing the dark rooms and

00:33:14   switching it to digital. So I saw both worlds and something was completely lost in the color science

00:33:22   of moving to digital. Anytime I talked to like industry, insider people, camera companies, or

00:33:27   professional colorists, like people that know, I'm trying to figure out what happened in those years

00:33:33   that we gave up the, like you say, the 100 years of incredible color technology that Canon and Fuji

00:33:40   and others had developed that gave us what are still some of the most pleasing results. Like

00:33:45   enough that Christopher Nolan is still going to choose it over digital, which has infinite

00:33:49   flexibility. It's still going to go with film because it's so refined and it's really like

00:33:54   beautiful and incredible. And you don't need to fix it in, you don't need to fix it in post color

00:34:00   wise, like it's already fantastic. And that was just abandoned when we went to digital and it was

00:34:04   this, like the engineers took over basically, and they're like clinical accuracy. We want it to be

00:34:09   accurate and just walked away from all of that beauty. And I'm just like, why weren't these Canon

00:34:17   color people getting hired over at Canon and Sony and what, how was there no communication? And I

00:34:22   think it actually took quite a while. In my shooting career, a lot of stuff, look, when I

00:34:26   look at my early photos looked super boring. And once I started discovering Lightroom presets,

00:34:31   they're all over baked. And now I look, I was like, Oh, no, thank you. But there was years where

00:34:36   we were all doing that. Everything looked pretty mediocre in digital and film was still looking

00:34:40   better for 10 years. And it's only sort of more recently, the last more recent decade that digital

00:34:46   can look great. And we sort of have the process to make it look amazing, but it was like I say,

00:34:53   it was just lost and I don't know how that happened and how it still hasn't fully recovered.

00:34:59   There's still not many just built in ways of getting colors that pleasing. Cause I think

00:35:06   just about anybody presented with a film photo and a digital photo, not to pick on iPhone. I mean,

00:35:12   this is like any professional company, put them side by side, straight out of camera. 90% of

00:35:17   people are going to choose the film. Yeah. I don't know 90, but 70%. For me, where it really hits

00:35:24   is with, and it, to me, it's one of the underappreciated triumphs of machine learning

00:35:31   is the, is Apple's photo photos widget, which has been amazing for years. And it's like my

00:35:38   favorite thing. I keep, I keep it at the top of my second iPhone screen for years. And it just shows

00:35:44   you a machine learning backed, Hey, here's a photo you might want to see. And it might be from five

00:35:50   years ago, might be from 10 years ago, whatever. But when my son's now 20 and for, I think about

00:35:57   the first two years of his life, I was still shooting with 35 millimeter film on a, the

00:36:03   cheapest Canon digital rebel might've been like the first digital rebel. I don't know. It was,

00:36:09   you know, I think I paid four or $500 for the camera and my, the lens, I, the two lenses I

00:36:17   kept locked on the camera where the, the Canon F 1.8 50 millimeter prime, which is like the

00:36:25   best bang for the buck. It's like the go-to photo student camera. It's $90. It's a plastic lens.

00:36:32   It's not super well-made, but it's a $90 lens, but it's a 50 millimeter prime on 35 millimeter

00:36:39   film is just a classic combination. And you get the bokeh, you get this great color. And then I

00:36:44   had a 28 millimeter prime lens, which I think was like three or $400. So like the whole kit

00:36:50   was like a thousand dollars total two lenses. Uh, the cheapest, maybe it wasn't a rebel. I

00:36:57   forget what the 35 millimeter camera cam, Canon made was, but it was just their cheapest 35

00:37:02   millimeter camera. When not, when those photos come up in my photo widget, cause I, what I do

00:37:07   is I'd go get the photos developed and have them scanned to a CD from the photo lab. And so they're

00:37:13   all digital. They're in my photo library. When those, when one of those comes up every time it

00:37:19   is like, Whoa. And all I did, I, I'm not, I care enough about photography that I had a prime lens

00:37:25   and I was shooting on a little bit more than someone with a point and shoot, but all I did

00:37:29   was just point them, do the half press to focus and then full press to get a release. I'm not a

00:37:34   professional. And some of these photos are, are just like, they make you, they make the hair on

00:37:41   my neck stand up. It's Whoa. I cannot believe that. I can't believe I shot that photo 20,

00:37:47   20 years ago. It's still like that now that the cheapest way probably to go get the best colors

00:37:53   you've ever seen from a photo in your life. I mean, not just colors, but yeah, the whole image

00:37:56   is going to just make your eyes pop is go buy a used, whatever you want rebel on eBay for 50 bucks,

00:38:03   put a 50 millimeter 1.8 on it, buy a roll of Kodak gold 400. And that those results will,

00:38:10   it's not going to be as sharp, but who cares? It looks, it is just more exciting. And it's not a

00:38:15   magic thing about film in the filmmaking world, in the cinema world, where there's a lot more

00:38:22   attention to the color of the final product. Like photographers don't end up with as much

00:38:27   color science knowledge, typically as what will be applied to a movie. Cause you've got somebody

00:38:32   dedicated. They spend their whole life studying this and perfecting it. That's where you can see

00:38:37   results that are like basically as good as film. People can match cinema to film, but in the

00:38:42   photography world, just go pick up a film camera and you'll probably be a lot more excited by what

00:38:47   you get out of it for a lot cheaper and for zero effort. What's the guy who's Ryan Johnson's go-to

00:38:54   cinematographer? Oh yeah, Stevie Edlin. Stevie, a genius. Yeah. Yeah. And has shot without,

00:39:01   he has such a great disposition where there's these angry wars between the film people and the

00:39:10   digital people. And I'm all digital and I hate you film people. And the film people are like,

00:39:14   your images all look like crap. And Stevie Edlin's right in the middle, who's just like, well, I shot

00:39:19   some scenes on film and I shot some scenes on digital, the exact same scenes. Here they are

00:39:25   side by, and I tried to make them look the same. And in Star Wars, he's late way later admitted,

00:39:30   he snuck in a few, a few digital shots. There's like mostly film and then, oh,

00:39:34   some of that was digital, by the way. I just didn't tell anybody until we were done.

00:39:38   Well, if anybody hasn't seen the Stevie Edlin display prep demo, it's his video that you're

00:39:44   probably referring to there. And it's just, it changed, I think changed a lot of people's

00:39:49   whole perspective on like how, what is this idea of color science? What does it mean?

00:39:54   Cause just seeing somebody at that high of a level, and like I say, filmmakers

00:39:58   get to that level more often than photographers. Cause I think there's just like more on the line

00:40:02   with the movie than a single photo, but yeah, that blew my mind too.

00:40:07   Yeah. And maybe because the cost is so much different prohibitively, right? That

00:40:14   if you're shooting, if you're just, if your output is just still photos, yes,

00:40:18   it's less money to shoot digital and you don't have to develop anything and it's easier to deal

00:40:24   with, but it's nothing like shooting a feature film cost-wise. Like it's the reason why it was

00:40:30   so hard for independent filmmakers to ever make a movie before digital because it was just the film

00:40:38   alone was impossible. Right? I mean, what was the, who's the guy who wears a bandana and he does the

00:40:45   movies with Antonio Banderas, an independent filmmaker. Oh, Rodriguez. Yeah. Robert Rodriguez,

00:40:54   Robert. And his first movie he shot all by himself. It made like an action movie for $7,000. And then

00:41:01   he wrote a book about how he did it. And it has some amazing stuff on it. It has stunts where

00:41:06   there's guys like jumping from a balcony onto the top of a bus. And it's like, it was, had to be

00:41:11   done practically, but the whole, like the $7,000 budget for a feature action movie was like amazing,

00:41:17   but the whole $7,000 was the film. It was like, he rented a camera and got like a crew

00:41:25   rebel without a crew. It's I will put a link to the show notes, but it was all the film. It was,

00:41:30   it would have been like, if he could have shot digital, then he could have shot the movie for $500.

00:41:34   It's so obvious to say, but this, I, to be a young filmmaker, just starting out owning an iPhone right

00:41:43   now is just, it's absolutely unbelievable. Especially since the iPhone 15 pro that's,

00:41:50   that was the turning point for professional stuff, obviously, because that's also when Apple started

00:41:53   doing their keynotes on it, but all of a sudden, yeah, like you say, that cost goes away. No more

00:41:59   worrying about the film. You probably don't even have to buy a camera and you can make something

00:42:03   that could play in a cinema at film festivals. It would look different, but it would look great. It

00:42:10   would, it would not look amateur if you did it well, you could tell any story on an iPhone.

00:42:15   And that's different. We've been playing around with the idea of, oh, it's, you know,

00:42:19   we, with the iPhone 12, we'd look at it next to SLR photos or mirrorless photos and be like,

00:42:25   oh, you know, like it's comparable. Like it's kind of close, but that was a bit of a stretch.

00:42:29   Now it's, you can match it. Like it can sit inside of a movie and you will not spot

00:42:34   the iPhone video. I really noticed it in the bear in season two. Suddenly in the middle of nowhere,

00:42:38   there's two or three shots, they're on a road trip. And on my big TV, I could just spot. I'm

00:42:44   like, those are iPhone videos. Like clearly all of a sudden out of nowhere, there's a few shots.

00:42:49   I'm like, that is a hundred percent a phone. And it's basically the sharpening, just like the way

00:42:52   that a phone processes the details and that like kind of bring tries to bring out more detail than

00:42:59   is really there. You can, I could totally spot it. It was clear to me, but now with the log

00:43:05   features of the 15 pro 16 pro I wouldn't have spotted it anymore. Now it would blend in a

00:43:10   hundred percent the whole ACEs color grading pipeline that is standardized in it would

00:43:16   let it just sit naturally with the Arri Alexa footage from the rest of the show.

00:43:22   I know it drives people nuts and the EU true believers will never not believe it,

00:43:28   but the people who think that the reason the iPhone switched to USB-C is exclusively because

00:43:34   the EU mandated that all such devices have a USB-C port. They couldn't be more wrong.

00:43:40   It was very obvious that Apple was going to move that year. Yeah. Right. It was a great,

00:43:45   it was a great year to do it well. And it was also a full year ahead of when the mandate kicked in

00:43:50   and they didn't it on, on the consumer ones. Yes. The lightning port just turned into a USB-C port

00:43:57   and you're still have USB-C two speeds for data transfer. And there's no other real magic out of

00:44:03   the port. It's just a different charger, but on the pro models, the USB-C port turned into

00:44:09   a literal superpower for photography and especially video. Some of the footage you shoot

00:44:15   has to go through USB-C. You can't even shoot it to the internal storage, right?

00:44:20   It's especially the 120 frames per second pro res log. You can do it in third party apps,

00:44:27   but not with apples. Right. Yeah. It's not, I guess it's not really like a technical limitation.

00:44:32   It's like, yeah, this is going to fill up the internal storage so quickly that we're not even

00:44:37   going to do it. Yeah. You just don't want to do it. So you have to shoot to an external drive

00:44:42   connected to the phone. So I guess where I'm going with this is that I kind of feel like what Apple

00:44:48   did to go back to the photographic styles. So the ones on the left are really just about color and

00:44:54   that's what they're named, right? They're things like Amber and Amber's the one you like. What are

00:44:59   the other ones? Gold is also, to me, it's usable. There's one that's, I'm not looking at them,

00:45:03   but like Cool Rose or something, which doesn't make sense to me because the way I've heard

00:45:08   some other reviewers talk about them is they're like, depending on your skin tone, you might

00:45:13   prefer XYZ. And that's a strange approach to me. I wouldn't take that approach. I would think of it

00:45:19   more like film where do you like portrait or do you like gold or do you like superior? Choose that

00:45:27   film stock. When you have a group of people in the photo, if you're shooting film, you don't worry

00:45:31   about the film being applicable to the skin color of the people in the image. If it's a good film

00:45:36   stock, it will represent everybody well and capture it properly. And I think it's safe to

00:45:41   take the same approach to the undertones. These are designed to look good in most situations.

00:45:47   And the key that I found, which Nilay talked about this on your show already, but just to agree,

00:45:53   the big difference this year is taking that tone slider and bringing it down, not all the way. It

00:45:59   gets pretty dramatic. I take it down about 50%, 60%. And then also I add a little bit of color

00:46:06   back in cause bringing it down does drain some of the saturation. So for me, that sort of secret

00:46:12   perfect recipe has been like Amber at like negative 60 tone and about plus 20 color is

00:46:20   just this amazing sweet spot where the shadows look more natural, more like they would in the

00:46:25   film days or on a bigger camera without looking like a filter. I think that's the best straight

00:46:32   out of iPhone images ever looked. Yeah, I totally agree, especially with the tone being like halfway

00:46:38   down. I think it's like negative 50, negative 60 in that range. And they've made it really easy to

00:46:43   tweak. If you're looking at the preview and you're like, ah, that maybe that's too much shadow and

00:46:46   you can go from 60 to 50 or something, but it definitely takes out. It feels like maybe the

00:46:55   typical person thinks, ah, but if I'm, when I'm futzing with these settings, I'm adding

00:47:00   processing style, right? I'm going away from Apple's default preset. So I'm adding

00:47:07   image processing, but it really, when you decrease the tone like that, it's really taking away that

00:47:15   over-processed over-sharpened look. It's, it's really telling the iPhone to do less. I mean,

00:47:21   maybe it's not doing less, but it looks like it's doing less and it has less of that telltale

00:47:26   high-end premium, modern mid 2020s processed smartphone photography look.

00:47:34   Well, I think also just since you have a lot of people listening, a great thing to bring up here,

00:47:39   because this is one of the most common questions I've been getting is that it, by default,

00:47:42   it doesn't preserve the tone that you used. You kind of have to keep resetting it. That's

00:47:47   if you don't dig into the settings, it won't do any of this. So if you go into settings, camera,

00:47:51   preserve settings, that whole menu has gotten a little bit out of control. There's a lot of

00:47:56   stuff in there, but there is an option for photographic style. I turned that on and it

00:48:00   will keep using whatever style you used last. So be careful with it in case you're using the

00:48:05   crazy filters, because then you might have a weird filter on everything. But if you do something

00:48:10   subtle, it'll stay on. And that's what I've been doing. Yeah, and it does. It's that whole section

00:48:16   of settings is sort of, I don't know what else Apple can do because they are trying to please

00:48:21   this incredible spectrum of photography where, yes, they know how many zillions of iPhone users

00:48:30   just want to point, see what's in the frame, shoot and be done and get good results and not be

00:48:36   surprised and never are going to go back and edit, even though they can, but they're not going to.

00:48:44   And so if they preserved by, if out of the box, it preserved settings and somebody was either by

00:48:50   accident or just was fooling around and changed the settings and got something sort of extreme,

00:48:56   like tone at negative a hundred. And now you've got these really dramatic, overdramatic shadows.

00:49:03   And then it by default stayed there every time they turn the camera back on, they're going to

00:49:07   be like, ah, all of my iPhone photos this year look really weird. This phone camera is terrible.

00:49:13   Yeah. Right. And their images aren't, it's not baked in. They could edit it, but if most people

00:49:18   never go and edit so well, and you have to edit one at a time, you can't batch edits. You can undo

00:49:24   everything for a whole group of images as it is right now. Right. But for the people listening

00:49:30   to this show, knowing that if you are going to take Tyler's recipe, Amber tone, negative 50,

00:49:37   negative 60 color, plus 20. Was that what you said? Yeah. I'll put a link. Cause I know,

00:49:42   I know. Yeah. Play around with it. But then it's a basic recipe. If you go to settings and save it,

00:49:50   it'll stay there after you've set it. And then every time you go back to the camera,

00:49:53   that's what you'll be starting with. Yeah. And if you don't like it, you can change it.

00:49:58   One thing I think is actually strange is if you turn that tone up, go to plus 50. Yeah. Or actually,

00:50:03   I mean, go to plus 100 and who is going to use that? It looks crazy to me. Like it looks broken

00:50:09   totally. If you put your settings there, you're like, Oh, this phone is terrible. It ruins the

00:50:13   photo. And I just, it seems like they could have dialed that back a lot. What is a hundred could

00:50:18   have been where like plus 20 is or something like that. I'm surprised too. Like why do they let you

00:50:24   go that far? It's cause I, and I'm trying, I can't imagine the lighting scenario where, yeah, maybe

00:50:31   you'd want that. If like you're in a dark room, no, no, no, no, no. Just turn up the exposure

00:50:36   because if you're in a dark room, you still want that. Contrast profile, right? Where the shadows

00:50:42   still fall down to shadows and basically you want it to move in the same direction everywhere. Like

00:50:48   again, keep coming back to film, but you know, if you expose correctly in a dark environment,

00:50:53   it looks right. Like the color science is designed to look good everywhere.

00:50:57   So, yeah, I don't know. That's a bit of a head scratcher for me, but yeah.

00:51:01   I guess my wish, and I, I'm not trying to put people like you out of business who've created

00:51:07   color profiles for like Kino, but that's kind of where I wish Apple would go like next year

00:51:14   and is sort of, eh, maybe get rid of these things like luminous and those things and just sort of

00:51:22   make the other ones like this looks terrible. I don't, that's another one where I just,

00:51:26   I don't know when it's supposed to look good. I really don't. It's like the thing Apple clearly

00:51:31   has some of the best color scientists in the world working on this. And if they were on your show

00:51:35   right now, they would probably be like agreeing with a lot of what we're saying about film and

00:51:39   what makes an image look good. And people that are interested in color science sort of share

00:51:44   these opinions generally. So it's so strange to me to see those results come baked into the phone

00:51:50   where I'm like photographers, I know, I don't know any photographers that would like this. So who,

00:51:54   how was that getting added to it? Yeah. And they've even spoken like John McCormack,

00:52:00   who, Neil, I quoted in his review at the verge, but John was giving the briefings to a bunch of

00:52:08   us in the media. That was the briefings that were at their Apple's new observatory building

00:52:13   on keynote day. And there was, it was sort of like a multi-station briefing where there was

00:52:20   one to talk about, like the, I don't know. The one I remember is the one about photography,

00:52:27   but there was another station where we talked about, oh, there was another station outside where

00:52:31   it was also related to photography. We can talk about this where we, they did a live demo of the

00:52:37   sound recording options for video, like studio, cinematic, in-frame, those type things, a live

00:52:45   demo where we could watch the, they hired a couple actors to sort of do a brief scene in front of us.

00:52:52   So we could watch, be there present and see the real ambient noise around us and then play back

00:53:01   the video that they just shot in front of us with the different audio settings. But McCormack in his

00:53:07   briefing to us was talking extensively about how much the whole team really cherishes and researched

00:53:18   the history of photographic styles and where did sepia tone film come from and why, and going back

00:53:27   to the origins of photography in the 1800s and where these things came from. And it just seems

00:53:33   a bit incongruous to me that some of the photographic styles just seem not to be rooted

00:53:39   in that history at all. They just seem purely like 2010 Instagram filters. Yeah. And the thing is,

00:53:45   you look at McCormack's photography, like he's a fantastic photographer and posts to Instagram and

00:53:50   stuff, and those colors aren't like that at all. They're, you know, like what everybody would agree

00:53:54   are beautiful colors. So the taste is there, like internally the individuals have it. I just think

00:54:00   it's odd that it's not more wide. It's not part of the, it's not built in a way that it's. Yeah.

00:54:06   So what I'd like to see Apple do is switch from those to something more. I don't know if they

00:54:12   would actually like license the film names. I know they wouldn't, but like you said,

00:54:17   but make it look like classic film emulation. Totally. I don't know why they're not. I was

00:54:22   saying like, yeah, I do these presets. They should be putting all of us like content creators selling

00:54:27   presets that should be driven out of business because the Apple ones are so good. If it was

00:54:31   as good as film, people wouldn't have this appetite to be buying all the independent presets because

00:54:37   it would already be great. So that's the way it should be. I mean, maybe I should hope that it

00:54:42   doesn't end up there, but yeah, they, they, they could and hope hopefully someday they kind of get

00:54:47   there. Well, yeah. Explain to me the JPEG XL thing with. Oh yeah. I'm very excited about this. So I

00:54:54   am so confused though. Yeah, it is quite confusing and I know it needs some explanation. That's

00:54:59   probably why it wasn't in the keynote at all, but a friend of mine was working on the redesign of

00:55:05   they like relaunched the JPEG XL like information website. And so he was kind of like the whole way

00:55:11   he's you got to check out this JPEG XL thing. And I was like, okay, I guess like this was a year ago.

00:55:16   I'm like, sure. New compression. We've heard of this before. The more I look at it, I'm like,

00:55:22   this is great. This is the future. This is so much better than JPEG. And overall what JPEG XL is, is

00:55:27   just a new compression method, right? They're like, okay, we need to improve and replace the

00:55:34   JPEG standard that's been there. There's been a lot of attempts at this. The reason this is much

00:55:37   better than especially the whole Heath H E I C format that came before on iPhones. And I think

00:55:43   it's also better than what Google is doing is it's open source. First of all, that's the biggest

00:55:48   thing. So there's no licensing fees. If you notice, like even as he used to have been on

00:55:51   iPhones for a few years now, it's not adopted widely. You still can't save them out of Adobe.

00:55:55   And it's because of the licensing. It is a closed format image, and it's also very limited. So it's

00:55:59   a video compression format that basically saves stills. So it's way more efficient than JPEG in

00:56:05   terms of file size. So it can carry some extra metadata along with it. There's some benefits,

00:56:10   but it's really kind of a bandaid solution. JPEG XL is designed to just replace all of it.

00:56:18   So it's much, much more efficient, both in computer processing, like CPU to generate them,

00:56:25   and then much smaller file sizes with higher image quality. And it supports a huge range of different

00:56:31   important format details. Like it can do a lossless compression or encoding or lossy

00:56:37   encoding at a huge range. So like, you know, can do lossy encoding that preserves all of the detail

00:56:43   or makes it extremely small for the web. It can do animations. It can do transparencies.

00:56:48   So it could replace PNGs and GIFs. And it basically is like one image format to rule

00:56:54   them all. What was added on the iPhone this year is not JPEG XL overall. That was the rumor I kind

00:56:59   of hoped it would lead to. It could be a standard, like the format is .JXL and we'd get that instead

00:57:06   of .HEIF or whatever the extension. Yeah, it is HEIC. And we have three or four different

00:57:15   extensions from it. Apparently HEIC is Apple's sort of proprietary container for HEIF. And

00:57:22   that's what the C is. But let's just call it HEIC or HEIF. But nobody gets it. I mean, after years

00:57:27   of it being around and it still also causes a lot of problems with regular users when they need to

00:57:33   convert it to JPEGs and stuff, I still see people running into compatibility issues.

00:57:37   Right. It's like when you export or share, typically it just is, okay, if you're sharing,

00:57:43   we're going to turn it into a JPEG. So instead of giving you the image that's already in your

00:57:48   library, it's doing a quick conversion, which is very fast. But if it was in a widely supported

00:57:55   format, there wouldn't need to be any conversion to do it. Well, sometimes it's still a problem.

00:57:59   You'll airdrop something to your Mac and it doesn't convert it because your Mac supports it.

00:58:04   And then you want to bring it into maybe Google Docs. I don't know which applications don't

00:58:08   support it, but the application won't do the conversion. So now you have to find a normal

00:58:13   user, has to find a way to convert to a JPEG. I mean, that is right. And the normal user then

00:58:17   has to make decisions like, oh, okay. Even if you get to the point where you know how to go and open

00:58:22   it up in a certain app and do a save as or an export, now you're the one with your mouse on the

00:58:28   slider for 85% compression. 90? I don't know. 75? What do I do? Whereas you really kind of want that

00:58:35   decision made for you. Here's an image that's in JPEG format. It'll open up anywhere and it's

00:58:41   good compression, a good balance between file size and image quality. Well, and so to explain what

00:58:47   did change this year on the 16 Pro, this isn't on the regular 16. First, I'll just say what Adobe

00:58:53   did with it recently. They've always had a format called lossy DNG, or not always, but there's a

00:58:57   format called lossy DNG in Lightroom and just supported by the Adobe ecosystem. DNG being Adobe's

00:59:03   raw container. It can both be a container and a codec within it. And they switched their lossy,

00:59:10   like their more compressed raw option to be JPEG XL. I don't know what it was before, but you know,

00:59:17   it used to reduce the size of your raw files by 30% or 50%. Now it's one 10th. So if you like,

00:59:23   select all your raw files in Lightroom, they convert to lossy, you will have one 10th of the

00:59:28   file size. And I need that. And the final, the results to my eye, I can not spot a difference.

00:59:37   And I know there's a lot, like there's pixel peepers out there that will be like, well,

00:59:41   I want, I just want lossless just in case I don't want to ever have any doubt in the back of my mind

00:59:46   that there could be something lost. And I understand that, but even pushing these around

00:59:51   and editing them heavily and doing color mapping and pushing white balance all over the place,

00:59:56   I have not been able to perceive a compression difference. And so what Apple did is brought in

01:00:02   a similar format for their raw files. The raw files used to be about 70, 80 megabytes each,

01:00:09   which is that's big for raw. Generally most camp, like on a Canon, you can get them around like 50

01:00:15   megabytes for a similarly sized file. But on the iPhone, they're enormous, like really

01:00:22   kind of unmanageable. You couldn't keep them on your phone forever because you start filling up.

01:00:25   So now you can have raw files with this more compressed method that retains all of the image

01:00:31   quality. So you're going from 70, 80 megabytes down to 10 or 20, depending on the resolution

01:00:37   you choose. So it's a pro feature. This isn't an everybody feature, but it's cool.

01:00:40   - Right, but with all of the benefits of raw in terms of the subsequent editability.

01:00:47   - I challenge everybody to try to spot the difference.

01:00:50   - I can't see it. I looked in your video and I've seen examples and Apple had examples for

01:00:55   us to look at in the press and it's zoom into a hundred percent pixel for pixel on screen.

01:01:01   And I don't see any of the telltale fringing of classic JPEG compression.

01:01:10   So anybody who could, and I'm sure there are people with better eyes than me and

01:01:14   better pixel peeping who might be able to see some things, but it doesn't resemble

01:01:21   what a regular person would think of as signs of compression in an image.

01:01:25   - I would love somebody to send me an example where they can find a place that it breaks.

01:01:30   I just can't find a place. I mean, there's places to look for are like sort of like where

01:01:35   chroma is pushed too far. So let's say red tail lights on a car can that get like the color clips

01:01:43   instead of maybe the exposure, right? Like that can happen, but I haven't made it happen in this

01:01:49   example. In video I can do that, but the JPEG XL raw stuff has looked completely perfect to me.

01:01:55   - Yeah, it kind of feels though that Apple has sort of crossed paths in an awkward way on these

01:02:04   file formats where I guess it was like four years ago or so when they switched to, when they added

01:02:11   the heat as an option and it was on by default and they call that more efficient in their settings

01:02:17   parlance. And that's what iPhones shoot by default when you're not shooting pro raw, when you're

01:02:22   shooting consumer compressed photos, if you choose more efficient, you get heat. And that's where you

01:02:31   get what we just talked about where when you share an export, it has to convert to JPEG for universal

01:02:37   compatibility, or you can shoot quote more compatible, which means it just shoots JPEG

01:02:43   natively and it's JPEG files on in this storage. And there's no conversion necessary to share in

01:02:52   a compatible format, but they're bigger. But where they've crossed paths is with the new photographic

01:03:00   styles. You only get those when you're shooting heat. If you have your iPhone, and this is

01:03:06   definitely, I think I mentioned it with Nilay on the show, but anybody out there who's, if you

01:03:10   didn't get your iPhone 16 yet, and now you have it and you're still confused why you don't see the

01:03:17   new photographic styles when you're shooting, it's almost certainly because you're shooting

01:03:22   more compatible, which is a reasonable nerdy thing that like people who listen to this podcast

01:03:28   might have chosen a few years ago, right? Like I spent the money to get the one terabyte iPhone,

01:03:33   so I don't care about the compression efficiency. I'll just shoot in the more compatible format. And

01:03:39   I still have most of the space on my iPhone is freely available. But now you don't get this

01:03:46   awesome new photographic styles feature, which I think is so good that I almost feel like they

01:03:52   should have taken away the shoot JPEG. Sure. Yeah. It could go away. I don't, I was about to agree,

01:03:59   but maybe not. I'm sure there's people out there that have a good reason for the JPEG, but I know

01:04:03   what you mean. And the same thing will actually happen with the JXL thing that it's not fully

01:04:08   supported. Chrome is the big holdout. Google's not doing it yet. So it wouldn't solve everything, but.

01:04:14   Right. So if you have, but if you have a JXL file and you put it on a webpage, like Safari will

01:04:19   actually render it. Oh yeah. So it does have wide support. Like all the whole Mac ecosystem already

01:04:25   fully supports JXL. And I know that some websites, so the guardian has already switched over to

01:04:31   serving JXL server side. And basically if it detects your browser, you're on Chrome,

01:04:36   it gives you JPEGs, but if we're saving enough space and improving quality enough

01:04:41   that we're going to make it's cheaper for us to make that choice on the fly than to do the

01:04:46   other one. So. Wow. That's fascinating. I mean, I really think this is going to be, obviously format

01:04:54   wars are always a bit of a, are a tough thing. And the big problem is Google. They, I'm forgetting

01:04:58   the name of their AVI. They have WebP too. Yeah. Which I think is part of the same format. I

01:05:03   followed the Google one a little less closely, but it does have more limitations. It's meant to make

01:05:08   things as small as possible for JPEG XL. It supports more of this like huge file sizes and

01:05:15   lossless and more big stuff as well. It scales further. So I was talking about the DNG switch

01:05:22   to a lossy. I just want to make sure it's clear that you need to actually edit DNG files to see

01:05:27   the benefits of the raw. If you just shoot raw and then post from your phone immediately or

01:05:33   airdrop it or whatever, it's using a little JPEG that is like sidecard into the DNG. And people

01:05:40   are basically just getting a normal iPhone process photo. It doesn't look like a raw file.

01:05:45   Where I was going was it just feels to me like instead of switching to Heek,

01:05:51   Apple should have waited for JPEG XL and kept the iPhone on JPEG for a few more years and then just

01:06:01   switched to JPEG XL and done all this. But now I feel like it's too late. I don't know. I mean,

01:06:08   yeah, we'll find that. I mean, all this stuff is, we all know Apple's slow. Well, I guess sometimes

01:06:14   slow, sometimes fast. Sometimes they push the change and sometimes they want to be the last

01:06:17   ones to change. But I do think that this is going to happen. So they managed the addition of switch

01:06:23   changing the default to Heek very well, where I'm sure 98% of iPhone users had no idea it even

01:06:30   happened and they don't really notice. And so they could switch to JPEG XL next year or two years from

01:06:37   now or something like that. I mean, they're very good at doing the hard work of making something

01:06:43   like that invisible to most users and for people who do care giving you control over it. So I guess

01:06:50   it could happen, but it just feels like a missed opportunity that they didn't just switch once.

01:06:57   It's like the measure twice, cut once adage for carpenters. Maybe they should have waited for

01:07:02   JPEG XL. Well, they also didn't know it was coming. So yeah, maybe. I don't know. I mean, I'm surprised

01:07:07   they went with the more closed format. That's the weird thing about Heef is like they paid a license

01:07:13   and anybody that wants to use it has to do that. And it just, whatever the big new solution is

01:07:18   going to be, it seemed like it always had to be more open. If there's that kind of restriction,

01:07:21   it's not going to be widely adopted. Yeah, it's maybe it's sort of, this is where Apple

01:07:27   having effectively infinite financial resources and not being afraid at all of proprietary

01:07:35   solutions was blinded. Like the licensing fee was like insignificant to them. And so they were like,

01:07:43   sure, let's just do it. Whereas maybe they should have been more cheap, worried about it and thought

01:07:51   we'll just wait for the JPEG XL because really Apple doesn't care about the licensing fee,

01:07:55   but lots of other companies do. And that's why Heek isn't widely supported. And so they shouldn't

01:08:00   have been worried about from their own perspective. Do we care about this licensing fee? They should

01:08:05   have been thinking, well, we don't care about it, but the rest of the world will. And so this format

01:08:11   is never going to replace JPEG and place JPEGs place in the world. Whereas it seems like if

01:08:18   anything's ever going to replace JPEG, it's going to be JPEG XL. It seems like it has the best chance

01:08:22   of doing it ever. And it's got the momentum as impossible as it ever seems because these new

01:08:28   formats pop up every couple of years and most of them never really take off. But Ping did right.

01:08:35   PNG, you know, was like, Hey, there's so many problems with the GIF format. I mean, it's limited

01:08:42   to 256 colors. I mean, that's just stop right there. I mean, that's made sense in the eighties,

01:08:49   right. It gives it a look, but, and JPEG isn't good for lots of things and doesn't support

01:08:54   transparency, right? I mean, huge problems with a world where the only image formats for the

01:08:59   internet were JPEG and GIF. So it kind of makes sense that Ping did succeed. It was open. It was,

01:09:07   it is good. And it solved actual problems that the existing formats didn't have. And I think JPEG XL

01:09:13   has all those same qualities. It's open. It solves real problems. There's one feature about it too,

01:09:20   that can, it can pass back and forth with, so if you have a JPEG and you convert it to

01:09:25   J XL, you can do basically a one-to-one conversion where absolutely nothing is lost and you get like

01:09:31   a 20% efficiency gain. And you can also bring it back to regular JPEG without a recompression

01:09:37   and without any loss of quality. That's incredible. Yeah. The whole plan was, this was the whole plan

01:09:44   behind it, right? Like it's really well thought out in terms of these, these steps forward. So,

01:09:49   I mean, I'm excited for like image formats have been a bit of a mess for a while. So I,

01:09:53   with this hope of like, oh, one, one perfect format to solve all our problems never

01:09:58   usually pans out, but I don't know, we can always hope.

01:10:01   All right. Let's take a break here and thank our good friends at Memberful.

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01:12:53   member, F-U-L, .com/talkshow. Memberful.com/talkshow. All right, let's talk video. So

01:13:03   you shoot commercials. Yeah. And you shoot commercials on iPhones.

01:13:08   So worth explaining, because I always get, in my reviews when I say this, I get a lot of comments

01:13:14   like professionals use professional cameras. What are you talking about? Shooting on iPhone doesn't

01:13:17   make any sense, which obviously I understand where that's coming from. So the thing is that

01:13:22   the industry has just really shifted over the last few years. And there are a lot of professionals

01:13:26   that wouldn't recognize what I'm saying. Olivia, I don't know what you mean, and I work in the

01:13:30   industry. The thing that's happened is that a lot of commercials are social first. The huge budget

01:13:37   spend is on the social campaign, and it has higher conversions than the TV campaign. Last year, our

01:13:43   primary commercial client that we were shooting throughout the year was shot on a Canon C70,

01:13:49   like a big chunky cinema camera with a big gimbal. And that would end up being more of a regular ad

01:13:57   and being on their TVs in-store and stuff like that. Now, this year, our biggest clients,

01:14:02   which all of a sudden, it looks like there's going to be more and more of it, were shooting

01:14:05   on the iPhone commercial, like an ad that's going to be run as a social ad later, where they put

01:14:13   money behind it on Instagram and TikTok. That should not be shot on a big camera, in my opinion,

01:14:20   because you can see it. It's so much more work to make a big camera look like an iPhone

01:14:25   than to make an iPhone look amazing, especially now that it shoots log. So if you're shooting

01:14:30   vertical first, and it's meant to feel native to the platform, there's no reason, in my opinion,

01:14:35   to be using the bigger camera. You can rig out an iPhone as much as you want. The USB-C,

01:14:40   like you were saying, has been a huge benefit to us. So we've just discovered that is a really

01:14:46   underserved market. A lot of filmmakers want to keep making cinematic. If you look at commercials

01:14:52   closely, the filmmaking is usually actually quite beautiful. It's a real cinematographer in there

01:14:56   that understands lighting and color and lensing, and it looks good. And they want to keep making

01:15:03   their commercials look beautiful. And we've kind of been like, well, social platforms,

01:15:07   that doesn't connect as well. It doesn't convert as well. So we've just been sort of targeting

01:15:12   this look. We'll make an ad that looks more native to the platform, looks a bit more like it was

01:15:16   created by a real person. So that's the reason that the iPhone's really become like we're

01:15:22   shooting on it all the time right now. And then as a side benefit, you can cut it into certain

01:15:29   other shots in a bigger video. If it's like, oh, well, the stabilization and the size are just

01:15:34   worth shooting on the smaller format for a couple shots, it'll sit nicely. There's not a lot of

01:15:39   reasons to choose it to shoot traditional horizontal commercial style stuff. To me,

01:15:44   it's all about the vertical. So to me, it's a little counterintuitive because

01:15:50   intuitively, I want to say that for any camera still is easier than video because video is really

01:16:00   just 24 or 30 or 60 or now 120 frames of still shot really fast in real time, plus recording

01:16:09   sound. And so, duh, for any camera, shooting a still should be easier and any camera should

01:16:17   probably be better at shooting still than video. But counterintuitively, what you're saying is

01:16:23   in a commercial context, and I don't mean shooting commercials, but just commercial photography,

01:16:28   professional photography, it's more likely to use an iPhone to shoot video than to shoot still.

01:16:33   That if you're shooting still images for a print ad, you're almost certainly not going to use an

01:16:39   iPhone. You're going to use a superior camera with bigger, better lenses and bigger sensors.

01:16:45   But it's video that's actually more likely to be used for a commercial context. Probably true for

01:16:52   Apple itself. I think the only commercials or ads that Apple runs that are shot on iPhone are the

01:16:58   actual shot on iPhone campaign by consumers. Yeah, that's true. I don't think they're shooting their

01:17:03   web assets on an iPhone and there's no good reason. There's no reason to. It would be a worse

01:17:10   result and a bigger challenge and nobody would really care, I don't think. If they take out

01:17:15   the back cover ad on The New Yorker is, I don't know, but I'm sure I'll bet one of them is going

01:17:22   to be an iPhone 16 ad soon. That back cover photo is not shot on iPhone. But what does Apple use now

01:17:29   to shoot all of its keynote presentations? They use the iPhone. I mean, now part of that for Apple

01:17:34   is to be able to say we shot it on iPhone. I think dogfooding it is like the really big part of it.

01:17:41   Both marketing, that is good, which especially on the first time they did it, it was this huge,

01:17:45   everybody's talking about it. Yeah, we won't talk about it so much going forward, but it's how they

01:17:50   learn what it's like to push this phone to the limit. And I've talked to some people that have

01:17:55   worked on that and I've dissected every single frame in the behind the scenes, which I really

01:17:59   appreciate that they do those behind the scenes. And it's clearly it's so they, you have to use it

01:18:05   this aggressively to find all of the flaws and faults and like, Oh, here, you know, we ran into

01:18:11   this, so we need to make it better. And clearly Apple's been going through all that. That's why

01:18:15   they did Final Cut camera as well, which is like an interesting professional versus consumer

01:18:20   relationship. But they're like, we're not going to make the camera app pro. We're going to build a

01:18:24   pro camera app, which I will say, it's still not at the point that it's, I don't think it's better

01:18:30   than Blackmagic camera right now for like, that's what I think most pros are still using. Cause it

01:18:35   just has a lot more features, but, but yeah. It's what, but filmic used to be the go-to one

01:18:42   and it seems like filmic sorta, but didn't, they got acquired by the dirt bag. Good people like

01:18:49   guys. Exactly. Yeah. Like great team worked so hard and innovated a lot of the stuff and they,

01:18:55   yeah, they got bought out right at the wrong time, just as log was, they had done their own log

01:18:59   format within filmic, but yeah, they just, they couldn't last long enough. Unfortunately,

01:19:06   I think it's the same. I it's either the same dirt bags who bought Evernote and ruined it or

01:19:12   that would happen to Evernote. Yeah. Same thing where they got bought. It might be a different

01:19:17   gang of private equity dirt bags, but this whole scheme of wall street dirt bags who buy companies

01:19:25   and then leverage them with debt and do terrible things like just Jack up the prices and squeeze

01:19:32   the customers who aren't going to leave until they abandon ship. And then just to have the

01:19:37   company declare bankruptcy and move on to another acquisition that they then leverage up with debt.

01:19:43   And it's also, I think what happened to Toys R Us. Yeah. It's a very sad, I've seen it myself too.

01:19:50   What did you make of the news? And this seemed like it wasn't meant to leak,

01:19:56   but that I think Danny Boyle's the director of, or I forget who's the director years later.

01:20:03   Yeah. Yep. So 28 years later is in the, it's kind of, I don't know where they're going to go,

01:20:10   cause I heard that there's a next one, but it's the, the original was 28 days later than there

01:20:14   was 28 weeks later. And now they're coming back with 28 years later, it's a zombie apocalypse

01:20:22   franchise. And I loved it. I haven't why. And I've been, and now that I know a new one's coming,

01:20:28   I want to rewatch the first two, but the gimmick is, and it's such a clever gimmick. And I'm sure

01:20:33   when 28 days later came out, I'm sure everybody in the whole horror movie industry immediately

01:20:39   is like, I can't believe I didn't think of that. It's what if the zombies can move really fast?

01:20:44   Not just the zombies don't move real slumbering slow, like every other zombie we ever made,

01:20:51   but they run, they're super fast. What if the zombies are fast? What a concept. There you go.

01:20:57   That should have been the title zombies, but fast. Yeah. That is like the legendary type of

01:21:03   elevator pitch where I'm sure somebody pitched a studio executive with two sentences. What if

01:21:08   zombies, but they move fast and it's like, Oh, green light go. Yep. Yep. I mean,

01:21:13   I'm somebody that actually doesn't like, I don't like horror movies. I don't really watch them,

01:21:16   but I saw that at the time and it had such a huge impact to me. I love the first 20 days later,

01:21:21   you know, we were talking about independent filmmaking earlier. It is one of the perfect

01:21:27   examples of like stretching a budget, making a lot out of something small and just good ideas,

01:21:32   good storytelling, good acting, and great cinematography on a sort of consumer camera,

01:21:39   how far it can take you. Yeah. So the what's leaked is that the upcoming 28 years later

01:21:46   sequel in the franchise is apparently shot using iPhones as cameras. Reaction to this was,

01:21:56   you know, this, there have been feature films shot on iPhones. Soderbergh shot one. I forget what it

01:22:02   was called. It was one of like a lesser Soderbergh movie, but even his worst movie that I've ever

01:22:08   seen is a very good movie. So it was fine, but I'm drawing a blank on the title of which one.

01:22:13   It was like about a woman in an insane asylum. But it was like a low budget movie,

01:22:19   even though he's Steven Soderbergh, he wanted to shoot like a low budget movie and they shot the

01:22:25   whole thing on iPhone 11 or something like that. And if you watch it now, it looks very shot on

01:22:30   iPhone. Yeah, it does. I remember at the time it was like fine, but didn't keep me from enjoying

01:22:35   the movie. But 28 years later is like a big budget $75 million horror movie. They're not shooting on

01:22:42   iPhones for budgetary reasons. So why do you think they're shooting on iPhones? Well, my first

01:22:47   reaction was that this makes up makes a lot of sense that if you want to use the camera as a

01:22:52   storytelling method, which was part of the original one, I'm sure in their camera choice

01:22:58   of using a digital camera that has lower dynamic range and looks more like home video it looks like

01:23:04   but it looks more like a documentary in a way right like it's not a photo documentary that

01:23:07   movie but it gives that feeling of like this is news this is real and our current vernacular of

01:23:15   storytelling is iPhones right that that's like I was saying it's becoming a big part of even like

01:23:20   news coverage like they'll just send a journalist to do reporting with the tripod and a microphone

01:23:26   and they're talking to their iPhone so shooting in that style will communicate this same feeling that

01:23:34   we had back I don't know how long ago that was 20 years ago whatever when the first movie came out

01:23:38   like that this is being captured by real people that are just observing from a distance the thing

01:23:44   that threw me off a little was in the behind the scenes that it leaked but in a way also we don't

01:23:49   it was like one image and we don't even know was that from that movie what's confusing about it is

01:23:54   that they were adding lensing to it right like they had the typical like panavision panamorphic

01:23:59   or whatever on the front so it looks like this huge box and that I don't know why they would

01:24:04   do that because now your image is basically going to look like any other camera which is amazing for

01:24:09   the iPhone it can just be the brains of your camera and match up with something more professional

01:24:15   but now you're just sort of making it inconvenient for your camera crew and you know you have a

01:24:21   little less quality for the colorist and so I don't know if I imagine they won't use it the

01:24:27   lenses for everything but if you have that shallow depth of field and stuff it'll just look like a

01:24:32   normal camera really so I think it'd be more interesting if they lean into the iPhone lenses

01:24:37   more I think there's only one example in Apple's keynotes where they were using panavision lenses

01:24:44   and everything else is basically shot on the 1x main camera of the iPhone because it's got the

01:24:50   biggest sensor right yeah it makes sense for Apple to go to extraordinary lengths and cost to shoot

01:24:59   their whole keynotes with the iPhone because they're the only company that really benefits

01:25:03   from being able to say yeah this beautiful keynote that looks like the highest of high-end

01:25:09   productions production value wise was all shot on iPhones it app Apple's the one selling iPhone so

01:25:15   it's aspirational to say that even if there's expensive super expensive lighting rigs and a

01:25:23   crew of 40 people and all this stuff that money can buy on a shoot big cranes and if they need

01:25:30   to put another like you said like a panavision super expensive movie lens in front of the iPhone

01:25:38   to get a certain shot or something like that and it would be easier if they just shot on I don't

01:25:44   know a red or a canon cinema camera or something like that but Apple you could see why it's in

01:25:49   their interest to be able to say the whole thing was shot on iPhones why would a motion picture do

01:25:53   it I my guess is that they are looking that this is my guess is that 28 years later is looking for

01:25:59   a shot on iPhone look sort of I I don't know the premise of the movie is has not leaked and that

01:26:08   maybe what we saw from that leaked image yes they put like a camera or a pro lens in front of the

01:26:16   iPhone but maybe not to give it a pro look it's for some other reason and that the footage is

01:26:21   still supposed to look like found footage or something like that I just hope we get a detailed

01:26:26   behind the scenes when the movie comes out I want to break down or to get to get the cinematographer

01:26:31   on my podcast or something I want to know everything but you know while we're on this

01:26:34   topic the goofiest take that I still see all the time is oh they say shot on iPhone but

01:26:40   look at all this gear they're using look at the crew I'm like right do you think because you're

01:26:45   using a phone now you're gonna hand hold it and turn off the lights and just like not run a

01:26:51   regular set that no a movie set works a certain way and you're gonna fire the actors because

01:26:57   they're getting paid too much to be shot on it like I don't know where you would draw this line

01:27:01   that it's only fair to call it shot on iPhone if it's completely amateur hour that it's so strange

01:27:09   to me I mean obviously if it's shot on an Alexa you don't need to make any qualifying statements

01:27:15   like it that's the camera so it was shot on it right and they'll even the people who want to

01:27:20   make that argument will even point to the lighting rigs and stuff like that and be like look they

01:27:25   have all these you know like I've seen that criticism with Apple where there's the behind

01:27:28   the scenes footage and lots and lots of lights behind Tim Cook at night time on Apple Park's

01:27:34   campus or whatever and it's yeah but even with a $50,000 cinema camera they still have expensive

01:27:41   lights like or imagine if this was still live keynotes on stage they'd still have all the

01:27:46   expensive lights on stage and would you call it cheating then no they're stage lights yeah it I

01:27:51   I don't get that criticism either I I don't know it's dismissive of something that it just ought

01:27:56   not be dismissed you can say yeah you're never going to shoot pro log footage as a consumer sure

01:28:04   most people aren't going to do that but it's not fair to say that if you were going to that that

01:28:09   the only fair way to do it is with one person holding the iPhone in their hands without any

01:28:15   other equipment or lighting just shooting it like a parent on vacation or at the first day of

01:28:22   kindergarten shooting the kids in class oh can it that reminded me of a tip can I throw in right

01:28:27   here that I think a lot of people would love is there's a few different apps and I'm not going to

01:28:32   like pitch any particular one keynote can do it Blackmagic can do it where you can turn on Apple

01:28:38   log and turn on a lot and have it record into the file and then save it out as a regular HEVC

01:28:45   H.265 like a compressed format but you're getting all of the benefits of log so you're stripping

01:28:50   away that over sharpening that video usually does and you're basically getting a fully color graded

01:28:57   log equivalent final video so that's what I did on my review this is my first year I did my iPhone

01:29:03   review shot on iPhone because of the log because of iPhone I shot on the iPhone 15 pro and it I've

01:29:09   shot some YouTube videos on iPhone before and I just it never looked good enough it always like

01:29:13   this looks like iPhone exposures jumping around it looks weird just switching over to log means that

01:29:18   the tone mapping is turned way down like we were talking about before with photos and sharpening is

01:29:24   reduced everything looks much more organic so if regular people that don't want to mess around with

01:29:28   color grading you don't have space for ProRes on your phone you can just bake the LUT right on top

01:29:35   of the the log and get what's going to look as good as 28 days later you just want to have all

01:29:40   that flexibility of color grading it afterwards but it can look as beautiful and to me that's

01:29:45   kind of going to be the future of like if I was shooting at home videos that you want to just be

01:29:49   perfect normal people can get perfect looking video uh pretty easily now which is uh just

01:29:57   amazing to me yeah and I think that's gonna yeah using Kino you can do this K-I-N-O that's exactly

01:30:04   yeah from the makers you need at least a 15 pro or 16 pro there's the only ones that will work on

01:30:09   because it needs to support Apple log and inside the app it's like the app is viewing the log and

01:30:14   putting a a conversion LUT that gives you that film look on top of it and then it saves it out

01:30:19   and yeah Kino does it really easily Blackmagic does it as well you just have to dig into the

01:30:23   settings a little further yeah I haven't really used Kino much but I love just flipping through

01:30:29   the styles you've got one what's yours called mine's Stahlman film 3 and then yeah I mean

01:30:34   Adamo Sigur the Sandwich has one as well Sandwich has one so yeah yeah multiple guests that trick is

01:30:40   adding it on to the log that's when it's like beautiful it really steps it up there all right

01:30:47   last topic I have is this I think that's what they're calling spatial audio but it's this

01:30:51   the feature when you're shooting video now and they've added microphones to the 16 pro this is

01:30:58   I think 16 pro exclusive I don't think you get this on the regular 16 right yeah no it seems

01:31:04   like it's not there but you get they call it the options they're standard which the audio just

01:31:12   sounds like it always has when you shoot videos in frame where this it seems magic I don't know

01:31:19   it's like somehow they are determining what's in the frame of the image and trying dialing and only

01:31:28   the sound coming from the typically people you would think talking subjects in frame studio which

01:31:35   is sort of trying to simulate more of I guess a podcast sound right like that you're recording

01:31:41   like we are here talking into a studio sure smb yeah and and then the other one is what they call

01:31:49   it cinematic which is sort of how would you describe it what's the the trick with cinematic

01:31:55   I think with cinematic they're taking the mix of like they're doing voice isolation so now they've

01:32:00   got a track that's like here's the voice just clean and now we add underneath a little audio

01:32:05   bed of the background sound but the voice is brought forward a lot and you still can hear the

01:32:10   background it's not reduced entirely but it is minimized so just which is what you would do with

01:32:17   a movie you'd have a boom mic over the actor so that you only hear the actor and then the audio

01:32:23   production team would go and record the street separately and then you'd mix them together

01:32:27   afterwards and I think that's the goal with the the cinematic but you can get this with any video

01:32:33   you shoot with the iphone so what I think yeah and okay well there's a few things here with I think

01:32:39   they actually didn't add any mics I was trying to figure this I forgot to go and deep dive this

01:32:42   actually but I think it's just improved mics in the same way they added like the studio quality

01:32:47   ones to macbooks while we go to the macbook pros which was a huge improvement like it really you

01:32:51   could hear the difference then and I haven't done the real that reminds me I gotta do the real test

01:32:56   like does it sound way better than the 15 now I didn't actually compare but they've said they've

01:33:00   improved the mics and the spatial audio that you mentioned that only means that it does the spatial

01:33:04   audio for the vision pro basically where you're getting more than stereo you're getting 360 you

01:33:10   know it's using the multiple mics to do like sort of a head profile so that audio wraps around you

01:33:16   and then these are called audio mix I believe audio and it yeah so last year they added voice

01:33:23   isolation a new voice isolation option into final cut they sort of had a dumb one before

01:33:29   they removed hum and stuff but it wasn't great this one was using machine learning and would

01:33:33   really take a voice and bring it forward like it it cuts all the background stuff out and I think

01:33:38   they are now applying that in phone to with a few different profiles set and I mean it it is amazing

01:33:47   not the only one doing this but they're the only ones making it really easy to do

01:33:51   and I did find some of them are a little overdone some of them can be a bit too aggressive on their

01:33:55   default setting and that was some of the responses to my examples in the video too you can just turn

01:34:01   this down too I think same with voice isolation final cut I usually turn it from 50 percent which

01:34:05   is the default down to 30 and it's a lot more seamless still does the job also most people's

01:34:12   examples including mine to show it off you go into a really noisy environment right you go towards

01:34:17   really loud and it's like it's still terrible art audio right like garbage in garbage out to some

01:34:22   extent so you still need to think about your environment when you record but it will improve it

01:34:28   tremendously it will do a lot with pretty mediocre audio yeah it is attacking a very practical

01:34:37   problem that people have right it is that when you're just standing on a street corner or

01:34:43   away from a city like on a hilltop but where there's wind there's that was a big one I think

01:34:49   that's actually maybe underrated as that could be the the bigger feature that nobody will notice

01:34:53   appreciate or even remember was added to the iphone 16 is the wind reduction is on automatically

01:35:00   so you don't need to go back in and make any changes later and it's really sort of shocking

01:35:04   that the difference it's doing that machine learning wind removal in real time you don't

01:35:09   need to apply it it's just that like the thing that you know sounds like plosives again uh it

01:35:15   gets cut out and it's like we don't think about it and all of a sudden it's just going to sound

01:35:19   better I mean that's those are the kind of changes I think actually have the biggest impact that

01:35:23   people just forget about later yeah you just take it for granted and it'll become the new normal but

01:35:27   it is been one of for obvious reasons it's just a telltale sign of amateur video that it's you know

01:35:36   not in a pejorative sense but just oh that's just someone who took out their iphone in a real world

01:35:41   situation and started recording and you hear all of this wind because it's here in the middle of

01:35:47   the city street and there's wind blowing down the street and it just that's just what you expect

01:35:53   video shot with yeah just start hit record and hold the phone up that's what you expect to hear

01:36:00   and now it's not there magically not there anymore you don't have to think about it right and it

01:36:07   doesn't magically make it sound like what you hear in a feature film or a professional tv show

01:36:15   when characters are on a city street no but it's way different than what you're used to

01:36:21   hearing from video that was shot on a consumer video camera out in a real world it's somewhere

01:36:27   in between how many tiktoks people watch a day that are people most tiktokers or instagram real

01:36:34   like social media creators they just put the phone down in front of them and talk to it they don't

01:36:37   set up mics typically and if all of a sudden that can sound 50 better without without buying an

01:36:43   external microphone which a lot of people never get around to doing that makes a real difference

01:36:48   for people that they can have a career uploading social media content and don't care about

01:36:54   filmmaking never want to learn about filmmaking they just they're doing it because their phone

01:36:57   made it easy for them and all of a sudden it can sound significantly better i mean that's the like

01:37:01   real impact same with when they added it to the macbook pros how many tv interviews like when the

01:37:07   news is i don't really watch these but when the news is on at the gym or whatever and i'm just

01:37:11   seeing like half of these interviews are remote like the half the show is shot on macbook pro

01:37:18   cameras and having that audio get significantly better is a huge change to all of the media out

01:37:25   there that's being captured on these especially iphones so i i think these small changes make a

01:37:30   huge difference kind of invisible difference to a lot of media we're consuming um every day i

01:37:36   notice it because i always notice production values and i always think at a meta level of

01:37:42   all the media that i consume but one of the weird underappreciated ways that the covid

01:37:49   just in a snap changed the world is it instantly became permanently perfectly acceptable for people

01:38:00   appearing on cnn or msnbc or fox news or any professional cable news interviewed through

01:38:08   their macbook camera right it's during the covid lockdown yes it had to be that way and then it

01:38:15   seems like everybody was like you know what this is fine because it used to be pre-covid if you

01:38:19   were going to if if you're an expert on like me if somebody was like you should do you want to

01:38:26   come on cnbc and talk about the new iphones or whatever they would want you to go to a local tv

01:38:32   studio in the city where you live and appear in front of a professional screen yeah the national

01:38:39   networks had like partnerships with local tv studios in every city and i used to get those

01:38:45   offers to talk about iphones or something and i would a i would turn them down because usually

01:38:50   i was out in san francisco and to be on in the morning it would be like you'd have to go to the

01:38:54   tv studio in san francisco at four in the morning or something and i'd be like i'm not doing that

01:38:59   no way but now it's just perfectly acceptable and yeah like having better and yes the people just

01:39:07   have air pods in or you know and they're using the mic on the the mic and the camera that's just

01:39:12   built into their macbook and so getting better audio is huge because they would run it even if

01:39:18   you have an old macbook that doesn't have the studio quote-unquote studio mic feature and

01:39:23   another feature i didn't talk about i haven't seen anybody really go into but could be huge for this

01:39:28   production thing is the call recording that is just built into i think it's just ios 18 this is

01:39:33   an iphone 16 feature i mean i did some quick tests with it and phone call you could you can podcast

01:39:39   like that like a hundred percent call your friend talking to your phones like a normal phone call

01:39:45   and it would be a pretty good podcast recording because all of a sudden you're holding your phone

01:39:51   in the right place for a mic right because you're listening as long as you're not doing speakerphone

01:39:55   put it up to your ear the microphone is one or two inches from your mouth and the mics are great

01:40:01   and it records it i don't know i don't know if it's doing a double ender like how it's capturing

01:40:05   but it sounds as long as you're i mean for my test like this is the way to do remote interviews

01:40:11   to do just to capture audio from somebody that knows nothing on the other end they don't i don't

01:40:16   think they need ios 18 it just gives them like a little audio message saying this call is about

01:40:21   to be recorded now you suddenly have pristine radio quality uh audio captured from both sides

01:40:28   it's i think that's going to be really great for like podcasters news interviews that would be a

01:40:34   nice upgrade though if they made it smarter like next year where if both phones were on ios 19 or

01:40:40   whatever if it knows they're both on iphones yeah and then it does like a double ender in addition

01:40:47   to the permission prompt like hey this call is going to be recorded and then it would record

01:40:51   their end locally too and like send it to you you know i wonder what would happen if you did

01:40:56   that in the same room because there's like the voice the like echo cancellation too you could

01:41:01   probably just have a phone call in in in person and get pretty fantastic results yeah and the

01:41:07   other thing you've and i know i've seen you on threads recently calling this out i think you

01:41:11   even mentioned it in your iphone review too but it just in the context of these improved microphones

01:41:19   and blocking out the unwanted noise and with this argument of professionals don't use iphones as

01:41:26   cameras you have these shots i don't know what event you were at you're at some kind of red

01:41:30   carpet event and you just shot like a behind sort of a behind the scenes shot of oh look at all the

01:41:36   media people at this red carpet event they're all shooting off their phones all of them i couldn't

01:41:42   even i couldn't even see them so yeah in the shot it was the canadian country music awards

01:41:46   okay the event and i was trying to zoom in as quickly as i could just a few seconds just

01:41:51   to show every single iphone lined up around like i couldn't get them all i mean there's more than

01:41:56   in the video and uh it's the default like of course it is it just makes so much sense

01:42:00   you know some of them are radio stations which makes sense because like their platform becomes

01:42:04   social media they do all these like social media hits and then use the audio later i know i had a

01:42:10   few people message me from bigger from big media organizations afterwards being like oh yeah it like

01:42:15   they sent me behind the scenes especially one of them was from a very big media agency just rows of

01:42:22   rigged out iphones set to a vertical method with like grips on each side a wireless mic that is

01:42:29   mounted on top so that somebody could just grab it and they're like yeah we just swap these out all

01:42:34   day long there's like 50 of them and our crew runs around with them and this is how we shoot

01:42:38   all of the content and of course it is it's and i think that's kind of invisible to everybody

01:42:43   because they just kind of consume the content and don't think about how it was made but um this is

01:42:47   really ubiquitous like it won't make sense for say entertainment tonight to not use a big eng

01:42:55   camera of course that they should but there's a lot of examples where it's the amount of

01:43:00   content that news is creating and it's also like news is a bigger thing now like a lot of the

01:43:06   online portion of a lot of outlets is as big as what's being i mean what i can't i couldn't help

01:43:13   but think about while we're there i'm like i think the video we're making from this could have the

01:43:19   most people see it and we're just posting it to instagram and tik tok because it's not a huge news

01:43:25   story on tv it doesn't have a ton of tv viewership but we had a somewhat viral reel from it and that

01:43:31   happens all the time that the social media thing becomes the explosion that has 10 million views

01:43:37   whereas the local news i don't know how many people watch the news coverage of these events

01:43:41   but yeah but these scenarios are acoustic nightmares right yeah and i'm thinking i've

01:43:47   i don't know i've ever been on a red carpet but i'm thinking of the hands-on area after the iphone

01:43:53   event which is this huge scrum and it is the of all the place the steve jobs theater is a

01:44:02   magnificent building and it always takes my breath away a bit it's like i've been there many times

01:44:09   now and every time i step in it's just one of those places that every time i step in it is

01:44:16   more impressive and inspiring than i recall it it's not oh yeah it's here again it's wow this

01:44:22   place is really something and the the most impressive is that space they reserve for the

01:44:28   hands-on area it's just but it's also it has magnificent light it is big it is spacious but

01:44:35   it is also cavernous because it is i don't know glass jar yeah it's 100-foot ceilings and it is

01:44:42   met it is entirely meant to look amazing it is not meant to sound good and yet you look around and i

01:44:49   was hanging around with um my friend o'malek and he shot a bunch of really cool i just linked to

01:44:54   it on daring fireball yesterday is behind the scenes black mostly black and white photos of

01:44:59   the thing but we were walking around and it's the increase in creators who are among the people

01:45:10   invited to the iphone event it's just very palpable it's you know and it's just the nature

01:45:15   of the way the media world has changed but i clearly you notice it in the hands-on scrum

01:45:21   because it's they're so crowded and so many people want to get not just get their hands on the

01:45:27   devices to see them but they want to shoot photos and video and stuff of them and the movement that

01:45:35   the switch towards the creators shooting using their phones to actually do the shooting instead

01:45:41   of a bigger standalone camera actually makes it much better because it's it it it fits with the

01:45:49   crowding it's this tiny little sliver of a camera instead of a big thing on somebody's shoulder

01:45:54   like it's a real difference when video first became a thing like i've been going to these

01:46:00   events long enough where i remember when there wasn't even there weren't really it was just tv

01:46:05   people shooting video and then when most many of the web publications started shooting video at

01:46:11   these events too it really was physically uncomfortable because the there'd be a camera

01:46:18   person and a talent person and the camera was big and on a shoulder often or if not it was still it

01:46:25   was in front of the the camera person and they needed space between the camera and the talent

01:46:33   and then there's the thing and so and it was always just a bit ugly because they're they just

01:46:39   it was sort of rude but it had to be because otherwise they wouldn't get the shot right and

01:46:44   so there's this space between the camera and the talent but the camera person is making sure nobody

01:46:51   walks in front of that space even though it's crowded and lots of people are there and now it's

01:46:57   the talent is the camera person it's the same person and the camera is so small that there's no

01:47:04   you fit more people it's really it's much more efficient but the change it is so fascinating

01:47:13   to watch just as somebody who's not me not shooting any video and not shooting social stuff

01:47:19   in the aftermath of it and i just sort of observe it it's super palpable but anything that would make

01:47:25   the audio better is incredible because it's just an acoustic nightmare shooting in there

01:47:31   it just is it's like shooting in an echo chamber have you ever observed the audio quality in the

01:47:36   briefing rooms just below that in the steve jobs theater building there's like the briefings you

01:47:41   go to afterwards those rooms have the best treatment i've ever heard you walk in and it's

01:47:47   just silent no air conditioning can't even hear your footsteps no like wow somebody thought about

01:47:53   this yeah they do calls from there and like they do yeah briefings and stuff yeah perfect and i'm

01:47:59   always very jealous of it yeah because i go and i get these briefings that are officially off the

01:48:06   record so there's no recording like in the but it's not just me talking to whatever team it's

01:48:12   usually me with a handful of other people like me and om were paired together for a bunch of them

01:48:17   this week or this month um so i'm not recording but i know from being in those rooms i see them

01:48:25   sometimes when they are on social media or something that yes apple does use them for

01:48:30   things that are recorded and it's so clear when i'm in there even though i'm not shooting because

01:48:36   it's off the record it yeah it's and the lighting is amazing it's a tv studio but feels like a

01:48:42   normal office yeah they have this overhead lighting that is simulates sun sunlight it's it

01:48:49   makes you think oh is that like a skylight no it's not a skylight it's artificial but it

01:48:53   artificially simulating natural light but the acoustics are amazing and you're right there's

01:48:58   never even a whisper of air conditioning or what or anything like that because the other thing i'd

01:49:05   for example one of the briefings i had just this month was with the air pods team and they wanted

01:49:12   us they had us test the air pods for active noise cancellation and it's such a hard thing to

01:49:19   simulate so what they did is they had a couple home pods in the briefing room which were when

01:49:27   they started the demo were playing i forget if it was a subway or an airplane i think it was

01:49:32   an airplane they were simulating the noise inside an airplane cavern cabin but when you're thinking

01:49:39   about that you've got okay i've got these new air pods in and they're all hooked up to phones in

01:49:45   front of you and okay now turn on the the noise cancellation and now we're going to start these

01:49:51   home pods playing airplane noise and then they turn it off and you're really keyed into what you

01:49:58   hear and you take them out and you realize that when they turn it off you hear nothing

01:50:03   absolutely nothing yeah it is like an anechoic recording studio yeah yeah it's like a recording

01:50:08   studio or an anechoic chamber or something it's wild very nice top notch but it makes me wonder

01:50:14   why the hell they built the observatory i think here's what i think i think they built the

01:50:20   observatory this new building because those briefing rooms in the steve jobs theater

01:50:27   which are downstairs behind the hands-on area i think when they have things that they invite

01:50:35   i don't know that i've ever been invited to apple park for something that wasn't related to an event

01:50:41   but i know they have things for some people whether they're in the media or they're analysts

01:50:46   or whatever but they do have meetings with outsiders and i think it's slightly awkward

01:50:52   to bring them into the steve jobs theater when there's nothing in the theater and there's nothing

01:50:57   in the hands-on area just to bring them into those rooms so they build i this is why i think

01:51:02   they built the observatory so i think phil shiller was just like yeah so we've got some yeah here's

01:51:07   some of the unused space in the area between the theater and the ring building we'll just build a

01:51:13   hobbit hole building just for nice meetings right where the whole point of the whole point of the

01:51:21   building is to bring non-apple people in media people whoever else bring them into a nice

01:51:28   building and we don't have to worry about any of the security related stuff of bringing them

01:51:33   into the actual ring building i believe it yeah it's the benefits of having that unlimited apple

01:51:39   budget it's a really nice building too it's a shame that it was we weren't allowed to shoot

01:51:44   photos in there because it was i haven't seen it yet but yeah it's really nice of course anyway

01:51:50   that's everything for me tyler it was absolutely a pleasure having you on and you've answered a

01:51:55   bunch of my questions so hopefully they answered a bunch of others yeah absolutely where people can

01:52:01   find your work if they're not familiar with it there's of course search search my name is a great

01:52:06   place to start tyler stallman with one l although probably with modern probably still comes out

01:52:12   they could add the extra l yeah it's very helpful that it's a different spelling tree because it

01:52:17   boosts my seo a lot is it yeah it probably does right yeah because it's so strange hearing my name

01:52:23   like here because it's not a very common name but i hear richard stallman referred to on podcasts

01:52:27   often but yeah that he's the more famous stallman but he has two l's and i got one so that helps

01:52:32   yeah that helps so yeah you could just search for tyler youtube.com slash tyler stallman i will link

01:52:40   to both of your iphone reviews the review of the iphone 16 and the kit recommendation of stuff you

01:52:46   have on your iphone and you're active on threads people can find you just by searching for your

01:52:51   name also thanks to our two sponsors squarespace where you can build your own website and memberful

01:52:56   where you can build out a membership system for creators thank you tyler okay thanks john