Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode 538. Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace, Fitbod, Notion and Smarter World.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Sinell. Hi, Jason.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hi, Mike. How are you?

00:00:22 ◼   ► I'm pretty good, thank you. How are you?

00:00:24 ◼   ► Pretty good. Very excited. It's big game week here.

00:00:27 ◼   ► Big game?

00:00:27 ◼   ► Although my lovable cow bears are 5 and 5, a 500 team, it doesn't matter. You throw the records out when you're playing against the hated Stanford Cardinals.

00:00:39 ◼   ► Ooh, take off that red shirt.

00:00:41 ◼   ► Take off that red shirt, you're right. Roll on, you bears, on the way to a probably really rainy and wet Saturday sitting in Berkeley, but that's okay. We do it because we love it.

00:00:51 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah, good week, fun week. I'll play some marching band music later. It'll be great.

00:00:58 ◼   ► I have a snow talk question for you. It comes from Stuart who asks, "Do you prefer to travel by planes, trains or automobiles?"

00:01:06 ◼   ► See, I see what Stuart is doing here. Stuart's making a reference to the classic John Hughes film Planes, Trains and Automobiles starring John Candy and Steve Martin.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Love that movie.

00:01:16 ◼   ► A certifiable Thanksgiving day classic.

00:01:21 ◼   ► And what do I prefer to travel on?

00:01:25 ◼   ► Well, mostly I travel on automobiles because I prefer them because they're very convenient and there are no trains by my house.

00:01:33 ◼   ► And planes, there's a whole rigamarole.

00:01:37 ◼   ► I love traveling on a train, but it happens to me so rarely.

00:01:43 ◼   ► And planes, I don't know.

00:01:47 ◼   ► I actually kind of enjoy the plane ride. I don't love the rest of it, but I actually kind of love the plane ride because I just put on my headphones and read my book.

00:01:56 ◼   ► And I'm very happy to just sit there and read for hours and there's nobody bugging me and there's nothing else I want to do.

00:02:04 ◼   ► If I had to work on the plane, I'd be a little more grumpy, but I generally use it as reading time and so it becomes kind of a refuge.

00:02:10 ◼   ► But I like a good road trip too.

00:02:12 ◼   ► I don't think I have a preference here. They're all different and they all have their advantages.

00:02:18 ◼   ► So sorry, Stuart.

00:02:19 ◼   ► You just do them all.

00:02:20 ◼   ► What you do is, like the characters in "Plane Trains" and "Automobiles," you ride for several hours in the back of a refrigerated truck and you get very cold.

00:02:28 ◼   ► No, the worst way to do it is to do all of them.

00:02:31 ◼   ► Yes, that's true.

00:02:32 ◼   ► That's true.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Separated by various other people.

00:02:34 ◼   ► People haven't seen "Plane Trains" or "Automobiles."

00:02:36 ◼   ► We just did it for the incomparable.

00:02:38 ◼   ► That episode will be out just in time for Thanksgiving.

00:02:41 ◼   ► Oh, that's helpful.

00:02:43 ◼   ► It is, I know, right?

00:02:44 ◼   ► And it's a classic.

00:02:46 ◼   ► It really is a great movie.

00:02:48 ◼   ► There's so many things about it that are good.

00:02:50 ◼   ► And that'll be this week's episode.

00:02:52 ◼   ► So people should check that out.

00:02:53 ◼   ► I'll put the link in the description of the incomparable and then you can go subscribe and get it.

00:02:56 ◼   ► Yeah, thanks for the mothership.

00:03:00 ◼   ► My preference is planes because of the destination.

00:03:06 ◼   ► So if I'm getting on a plane, it's most likely the most exciting destination, right?

00:03:12 ◼   ► Is going to be when I get off on a plane.

00:03:14 ◼   ► For sure, for sure.

00:03:16 ◼   ► Somebody in the chat mentioned buses and I'll just say years of riding like a school bus and stuff like, I hate buses.

00:03:25 ◼   ► That said, I also was a bus commuter for like 15 years.

00:03:28 ◼   ► I rode a bus every single day for 15 years and I didn't hate the bus, but it's not my favorite.

00:03:33 ◼   ► I draw the line at the bus.

00:03:36 ◼   ► Yeah, I would go planes, trains, automobiles, bus.

00:03:41 ◼   ► I love trains.

00:03:41 ◼   ► I take trains happily every day.

00:03:44 ◼   ► You know, well, we haven't mentioned yet.

00:03:47 ◼   ► For two years, I was a ferry commuter.

00:03:51 ◼   ► Now that's an interesting way to live.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Boats.

00:03:54 ◼   ► Ride a boat every day.

00:03:57 ◼   ► And that was actually very great.

00:03:58 ◼   ► That was really civilized.

00:04:00 ◼   ► I enjoyed riding the boat.

00:04:02 ◼   ► That was a fun time.

00:04:04 ◼   ► So get boats in there above buses for sure.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Very fair.

00:04:07 ◼   ► If you have a snow talk question you would like for us to answer in a future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com

00:04:14 ◼   ► and you can send us your snow talk question.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Thank you to Stuart for that one.

00:04:18 ◼   ► I enjoyed it.

00:04:20 ◼   ► You can give the gift of relay for every year, one time a year.

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00:04:29 ◼   ► You see starting now until December the 18th.

00:04:32 ◼   ► Now, obviously we would recommend that you go to get upgradeplus.com and you can sign up for an annual plan.

00:04:38 ◼   ► Use the code 2024 holiday and you will get 20% off an annual membership.

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00:05:05 ◼   ► Now let me tell you why you want to do this for upgrade plus, because you will get longer ad-free episodes every week.

00:05:11 ◼   ► You will also get access to our relay members discord, tons of bonus content, including two monthly members only relay shows,

00:05:18 ◼   ► and even more bonus content that we've done over the years.

00:05:21 ◼   ► You'll also be helped support in the show, which we will appreciate greatly.

00:05:24 ◼   ► This week on upgrade plus, we're going to talk about our thoughts on the growth of blue sky.

00:05:28 ◼   ► So you want to go and get this for yourself.

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00:05:40 ◼   ► We really appreciate it.

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00:05:47 ◼   ► and they can help sign you up for one whole year of upgrade plus 20% off.

00:05:51 ◼   ► Pretty great, right Jason?

00:05:53 ◼   ► Yeah, pretty good. Pretty good. What a deal. Such a bargain.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Give the gift to people you love of relay. Really.

00:05:59 ◼   ► Why not? Why not? Yeah, why not?

00:06:02 ◼   ► Some people ask why. We ask why not.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:06:06 ◼   ► I've got some follow up.

00:06:08 ◼   ► A lot of people wrote in. We mentioned this. You texted me after last week's episode

00:06:11 ◼   ► and you said that you really enjoyed our conversation that we had about in lawyer up, which was fun.

00:06:16 ◼   ► I enjoyed it too. It was a good time to return to the topic of Apple and the European Union.

00:06:21 ◼   ► And this spurred a lot of conversation from our listeners.

00:06:26 ◼   ► First comes from Chris. Chris says, "Rather than Apple dramatically pulling out of the European market,

00:06:34 ◼   ► I think the most likely outcome of European Commission decision that Apple violated the DMA

00:06:39 ◼   ► would be years of grinding litigation." What a beautiful way to put it.

00:06:42 ◼   ► For comparison, the European Commission's decision in the Irish tax case came in 2016.

00:06:49 ◼   ► The final appeal wasn't resolved until 2024.

00:06:52 ◼   ► Here's the thing about this though. They ended up having to pay it.

00:06:56 ◼   ► Yes.

00:06:57 ◼   ► And the years of grinding litigation, if there's another fine, another fine, another fine, another fine,

00:07:01 ◼   ► and they keep accruing fines and they're like, "Oh yeah, but we're going to do this in grinding litigation."

00:07:05 ◼   ► And five years from there, they're told, "No, you need to pay it all."

00:07:08 ◼   ► They've now accumulated five years of funds that they're going to have to pay.

00:07:11 ◼   ► I don't think it's a long-term strategy.

00:07:14 ◼   ► And remember, they lost that case.

00:07:17 ◼   ► So it's a tough one.

00:07:19 ◼   ► That's a tough strategy for ongoing fines to bank on you ultimately winning your case,

00:07:26 ◼   ► especially given the track record.

00:07:28 ◼   ► Well, because it's like, yeah, you can do this,

00:07:31 ◼   ► but then not only will you eventually pay the fine that they told you you wanted to pay in the first place,

00:07:35 ◼   ► but you'll also have to pay the legal fees for your lawyers to be in court over the same time.

00:07:42 ◼   ► And presumably all the further fines for your continuing,

00:07:45 ◼   ► if you assume, assuming you continue not complying, you would continue to be fined.

00:07:50 ◼   ► That's how it works. It's not a single thing.

00:07:52 ◼   ► They keep refining you.

00:07:54 ◼   ► So it's not great.

00:07:56 ◼   ► Challenging it in court is a good strategy for individual fines.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Like if the European Commission says, look, you did this thing with determining your location

00:08:07 ◼   ► and all of that that they're talking about,

00:08:09 ◼   ► and we think that you need to pay now because you were in violation of this for this amount of time.

00:08:14 ◼   ► If it's like a one-time deal, I don't know if that one is or not,

00:08:18 ◼   ► but like if it's a one-time deal, sure, of course, you're going to argue it.

00:08:21 ◼   ► But the danger is if it's an ongoing problem that is not going to be resolved for years,

00:08:27 ◼   ► you are you still have to make a decision about whether you're going to continue to defy the rule or not.

00:08:34 ◼   ► Because if you lose, guess what? You've just, you know, accrued years of that.

00:08:40 ◼   ► So I think there's a real danger there.

00:08:43 ◼   ► An interesting clarification, maybe from at least something I didn't really consider from Mathaus who says the commission is not the courts.

00:08:51 ◼   ► And these are separate. So a fine from the commission is the same as a legal case in the US,

00:08:55 ◼   ► even if they issue a fine, it will still go through the courts.

00:08:59 ◼   ► The commission does not have the power to just fine companies without them being able to defend themselves.

00:09:04 ◼   ► So sure, there will always be some level of legal discussion,

00:09:08 ◼   ► but it's if they will continue to appeal it or not is the right.

00:09:12 ◼   ► It's like the the FTC or the judge or the Justice Department in the US that it goes through the courts at that point.

00:09:18 ◼   ► But again, that's the danger. That's the danger is you might lose in court.

00:09:27 ◼   ► And anonymous writes in and says Apple doesn't have to walk away from the EU.

00:09:31 ◼   ► But what they could do is send a shot across the EU lawmakers bow by scaling back job numbers in countries like Germany and France.

00:09:39 ◼   ► The EU powerhouses and so like the EU powerhouses and move those roles to non EU countries like the UK or the USA,

00:09:47 ◼   ► which would cause massive pressure on these governments.

00:09:51 ◼   ► Interesting thought. Maybe although again,

00:09:55 ◼   ► I think the European Commission is is controlled by the European Parliament,

00:09:59 ◼   ► which would not be the individual countries governments.

00:10:03 ◼   ► So it would need to put pressure on voters or certainly make I mean we talked about this last week diplomatic pressure.

00:10:10 ◼   ► One of the games here is diplomatic pressure, which is hey,

00:10:14 ◼   ► maybe Europe needs to look at what the European Commission is doing and say maybe we've gone too far here.

00:10:20 ◼   ► That seems unlikely to me,

00:10:21 ◼   ► but that would be one way you could play this is to is just to kind of put pressure on there.

00:10:27 ◼   ► And I know that there's other talk about like how the incoming administration in the US might also try to put pressure on Europe

00:10:34 ◼   ► and that Tim Cook apparently like called Trump before the election and to complain.

00:10:39 ◼   ► At least this is a story that is is out there to complain about what Europe was making them do.

00:10:46 ◼   ► So it's possible. But again, you're risking you're still going to get fined.

00:10:52 ◼   ► So there's that without walking away. You're still going to get fined and then you're playing a different game of hardball

00:10:58 ◼   ► and hoping that they crumble and you have to be pretty confident that if you move some jobs out of Europe that they're going to say,

00:11:05 ◼   ► oh, oh don't do that. We're sorry. Please come back. You can do whatever you want.

00:11:10 ◼   ► And I mean people in Europe can tell me if this is different,

00:11:15 ◼   ► but my read from here based on everything I've seen is that there's very little appetite in Europe to give more free rein to US tech giants.

00:11:25 ◼   ► So seems like a bad play but they could do it.

00:11:28 ◼   ► They could try it. I just did a quick Google search and apparently Apple employs 1,500 engineers

00:11:34 ◼   ► in Germany. It's logic. I don't know who else.

00:11:40 ◼   ► It's definitely logic. That's a lot of engineers. 1,500 engineers.

00:11:43 ◼   ► I wonder what else we're working on. Well, at least that's what Google's AI overview is telling me.

00:11:48 ◼   ► Well, so it's probably not right. Who knows.

00:11:50 ◼   ► Who could tell. But it is an interesting idea, right? That they could threaten the threaten.

00:11:57 ◼   ► They could exert pressure in different ways, right? Of course, of course.

00:12:03 ◼   ► But again, you're left with, see this is the problem though.

00:12:05 ◼   ► Do I think that Apple could Tim Cook go to Germany and say you're killing us here.

00:12:13 ◼   ► What can we do? You know, we've got plants.

00:12:15 ◼   ► We've got engineers. Let's work on this.

00:12:19 ◼   ► But like that's not where it is. It's in Brussels.

00:12:23 ◼   ► It's at the EC. Is that is the commission in Brussels?

00:12:27 ◼   ► I don't know. But it's right. That's where the Parliament is.

00:12:31 ◼   ► It's the European Commission and it's the European Parliament

00:12:33 ◼   ► and these are Europe wide things that are part of the EU.

00:12:36 ◼   ► So diplomacy with Germany doesn't really get you anywhere.

00:12:41 ◼   ► And I think that's the challenge is like the diplomacy with the EU seems a lot harder to get your,

00:12:48 ◼   ► you know, to even get your arms around it.

00:12:50 ◼   ► Well, just try to get any kind of purchase with it.

00:12:52 ◼   ► These individual member states are part of the European Union though, right?

00:12:55 ◼   ► So I think if they were to pressure some of the bigger countries in the European Union,

00:13:00 ◼   ► it does that they do still work together, right?

00:13:03 ◼   ► Like pressure placed on Germany and France could assist in change in EU law.

00:13:09 ◼   ► It could but they can't do it alone.

00:13:12 ◼   ► They would have to do it with everybody else.

00:13:13 ◼   ► And again, I think that you know,

00:13:14 ◼   ► you've got your members of the European Parliament who pass these rules that are independently elected, right?

00:13:21 ◼   ► They're not appointed by the governments.

00:13:24 ◼   ► I don't believe. No, but they're still part of the political parties.

00:13:29 ◼   ► Sure.

00:13:30 ◼   ► Sure.

00:13:30 ◼   ► Although sometimes the party the parties in that are sent to Europe are not the parties that are in charge in the country.

00:13:35 ◼   ► Correct.

00:13:36 ◼   ► So it's kind of I guess what I'm this is what I'm saying though is is if this was just Germany's haven't regulating us.

00:13:42 ◼   ► What do we do?

00:13:42 ◼   ► The answer is talk to Germany, but it's like Europe is regulating us.

00:13:46 ◼   ► What do we do?

00:13:47 ◼   ► It's like talk to a bunch of European countries and like it just it's it's much slippery air to do definitely is possibly by design.

00:13:59 ◼   ► From a different perspective now Leroy mentions if Apple makes the integrated smart glasses that you were talking about in last week's episode.

00:14:06 ◼   ► Could they work around the DMA by not selling them in the European Union?

00:14:11 ◼   ► So I think it's a couple of things going on here.

00:14:13 ◼   ► I mean they could do that.

00:14:14 ◼   ► I don't think that that is an issue for them though.

00:14:16 ◼   ► Like this is not going to qualify as a gatekeeper product immediately, which is the problem with the DMA.

00:14:22 ◼   ► And if the issue is around like Apple opening up the iPhone for extra products,

00:14:28 ◼   ► then making this is not going to change that rule.

00:14:32 ◼   ► The EU wants this opened up no matter what right like that.

00:14:35 ◼   ► If you make an accessory product, you can communicate with the iPhone.

00:14:38 ◼   ► So I don't think it's an issue that affect that.

00:14:41 ◼   ► I'm not sure whether the EU can mandate that there be smart glasses connectivity for third parties.

00:14:48 ◼   ► If Apple because Apple is making smart glasses if Apple's not making not selling them in the EU.

00:14:52 ◼   ► I'm not sure they can reach that far say other elsewhere in the world.

00:14:56 ◼   ► You have this but not here.

00:14:58 ◼   ► I think the reality would be what's happening with Apple intelligence,

00:15:00 ◼   ► which is the EU will get them later that Apple will ship them elsewhere.

00:15:04 ◼   ► And then there'll be a software update six months or a year later that enables some of the things that are required by the DMA

00:15:09 ◼   ► and then they'll come to Europe but to directly answer this question sure,

00:15:14 ◼   ► but I don't think that's what I mean.

00:15:16 ◼   ► I don't think that their goal is ever to invest in building a new product

00:15:20 ◼   ► and then not have it be available in the EU

00:15:22 ◼   ► and remember what I said last last week,

00:15:25 ◼   ► which is it's not just going to be the EU your Dane.

00:15:28 ◼   ► You're here in danger of turning your back on any group that regulates you

00:15:33 ◼   ► and that could be Japan and could be Korea

00:15:37 ◼   ► and it could be you know,

00:15:38 ◼   ► other it could be you know,

00:15:39 ◼   ► who knows where that would say.

00:15:41 ◼   ► Oh, we like what Europe is doing.

00:15:43 ◼   ► We're going to do it too.

00:15:44 ◼   ► And do you want to do you want to take that risk and lose those cells?

00:15:49 ◼   ► Yeah, and I think I do think for the time being anything that Apple launches the EU will be later

00:15:57 ◼   ► in the stack, you know,

00:15:59 ◼   ► like how they'll launch something and it'll be in such and such countries.

00:16:02 ◼   ► I can see for the foreseeable future the EU

00:16:06 ◼   ► and or any other nation or that wants to regulate Apple more heavily.

00:16:11 ◼   ► They may just take more time before they launch these things,

00:16:15 ◼   ► right? Like Apple intelligence is coming to the EU,

00:16:18 ◼   ► but it's coming later.

00:16:20 ◼   ► And I think that's going to start to occur right that you know,

00:16:23 ◼   ► they'll sell things in the US first then UK and Canada,

00:16:27 ◼   ► then maybe Japan, China,

00:16:30 ◼   ► then they might start going to French and Germany.

00:16:32 ◼   ► I think we might start seeing that where they just don't want to they want to kind of get things out there

00:16:37 ◼   ► and maybe work with the EU a little bit afterwards

00:16:40 ◼   ► because they're obviously not going to give the EU advance notice of anything

00:16:42 ◼   ► because that's not how Apple works.

00:16:44 ◼   ► So it may be that things do roll out a little bit more slowly there now than they have done in the past.

00:16:52 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's exactly it is that is that Apple is not going to share information

00:16:57 ◼   ► they I think somebody actually complained about this at one point where where Apple intelligence got announced

00:17:01 ◼   ► and they're like, well, how dare they and it's like guys.

00:17:04 ◼   ► They're not going to share that with you in advance that first off it would leak

00:17:08 ◼   ► and and and they're just they're not going to do it.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And so if the game is well, we have to see it before we can,

00:17:14 ◼   ► you know, even do a ruling about whether we think it's acceptable or not.

00:17:17 ◼   ► This is what will happen is that it will be announced and not for them and then they'll work it out.

00:17:22 ◼   ► And and I think that's the model.

00:17:24 ◼   ► I think that you're exactly right that it's going to be this will be available in Europe six months from now

00:17:29 ◼   ► or a year from now.

00:17:32 ◼   ► And Oliver wrote in to say there actually is a way with keyboard occlusion

00:17:37 ◼   ► while using the vision Pro Mac virtual display that the keyboard remains persistent.

00:17:41 ◼   ► Not just when you have your hands near the keyboard if you go into settings and then awareness and safety.

00:17:47 ◼   ► There is an option to turn off quote bring hands near to reveal

00:17:51 ◼   ► if you turn that off the keyboard should always remain occluded when using environments.

00:17:55 ◼   ► So I got this from a few people.

00:17:57 ◼   ► Yeah, and it entirely misses what I was saying.

00:18:00 ◼   ► Oh, no, so I'm going to say it again, which is my bug in vision.

00:18:05 ◼   ► OS is if you turn on an environment when you're not looking at your keyboard,

00:18:09 ◼   ► the keyboard will never appear have anything to do with where your hands are.

00:18:14 ◼   ► I think this is an interesting feature that you can have it disappear

00:18:17 ◼   ► when your hands aren't over the keyboard or you can have it always be there.

00:18:21 ◼   ► These are interesting decisions that they've made.

00:18:24 ◼   ► I think that's great.

00:18:25 ◼   ► What I'm saying is the only way I can use a keyboard

00:18:28 ◼   ► and see it in vision OS is if I dial up the environment while staring at the keyboard

00:18:35 ◼   ► because if I'm not looking at the keyboard I'm looking at a thing that I'm working on

00:18:39 ◼   ► and I dial in an environment and then I look back down to my keyboard.

00:18:43 ◼   ► It's not there and it never shows up.

00:18:45 ◼   ► I found the feedback about it.

00:18:47 ◼   ► I don't know whether the issue is that they I mean,

00:18:49 ◼   ► my guess is that they do their scan for the keyboard

00:18:52 ◼   ► when the environment is entered and then they don't do it again.

00:18:55 ◼   ► And I think that's a mistake.

00:18:57 ◼   ► I think they need to be looking for that keyboard object.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Even when you're in the environment,

00:19:02 ◼   ► like what if you dial up an environment

00:19:03 ◼   ► and then you put a keyboard in your lap afterward?

00:19:06 ◼   ► Well too bad.

00:19:07 ◼   ► You won't see it because it's not persistent.

00:19:11 ◼   ► It needs to like know that the keyboards there.

00:19:12 ◼   ► I think that's a bug and if not,

00:19:15 ◼   ► it's certainly a missing feature,

00:19:17 ◼   ► but it's not this.

00:19:19 ◼   ► So I obviously several people who know about this feature thought

00:19:22 ◼   ► that this is what I was talking about.

00:19:24 ◼   ► That's not it.

00:19:25 ◼   ► It's that I literally can't get keyboards to show up

00:19:28 ◼   ► if I'm not staring at them when I turn on the environment.

00:19:31 ◼   ► And I wanted to remind Upgradients that it is Upgrady's voting time.

00:19:36 ◼   ► You can go to Upgradies.vote

00:19:38 ◼   ► and fill out your nominations for the 11th annual Upgradies

00:19:42 ◼   ► that are coming your way in December.

00:19:44 ◼   ► Voting closes on December 13th.

00:19:47 ◼   ► So do not forget to please go there.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Many many Upgradients have so far.

00:19:52 ◼   ► Please go and fill out your nominations.

00:19:54 ◼   ► Yes.

00:19:54 ◼   ► Remember this is the it's not one of those like vote in a poll.

00:19:57 ◼   ► It's very much like you make your nominations

00:20:00 ◼   ► and that helps us understand the categories

00:20:03 ◼   ► and that that affects very positively the final choices for the Upgradies.

00:20:08 ◼   ► Sure does.

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00:22:19 ◼   ► Get on the line.

00:22:21 ◼   ► It's time for Room Around Up.

00:22:23 ◼   ► Yeehaw. Let's do it.

00:22:24 ◼   ► This is very home focused today.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Apple Home products.

00:22:30 ◼   ► We're going to start out by talking about

00:22:32 ◼   ► another Mark Gurman report

00:22:34 ◼   ► where he shares even more details

00:22:36 ◼   ► about Apple's upcoming smart home controlling product

00:22:39 ◼   ► with a screen that we need a name for, I think.

00:22:42 ◼   ► Without a robotic arm, too.

00:22:43 ◼   ► Without the robotic arm.

00:22:44 ◼   ► Without a robotic limb.

00:22:45 ◼   ► I've seen, I think, 9to5Mac or MacRumors

00:22:48 ◼   ► and maybe both calling it HomePad as a kind of a shorthand.

00:22:52 ◼   ► But we need something

00:22:53 ◼   ► because it's becoming more complicated

00:22:56 ◼   ► to explain what this might be

00:22:57 ◼   ► because it's also not really HomePod with a screen anymore,

00:23:00 ◼   ► which is what we were calling it before.

00:23:02 ◼   ► It seems slightly different to that.

00:23:05 ◼   ► So we can think about that.

00:23:06 ◼   ► What was the name of their iPod speaker dock thing?

00:23:10 ◼   ► What was that called?

00:23:12 ◼   ► That was the iPod Hi-Fi.

00:23:13 ◼   ► Okay.

00:23:14 ◼   ► That's not going to work.

00:23:15 ◼   ► That's not going to work.

00:23:16 ◼   ► That's not going to work.

00:23:17 ◼   ► HomePod Hi-Fi.

00:23:18 ◼   ► I think I joked last week that it was,

00:23:21 ◼   ► that we could just call it HousePod.

00:23:24 ◼   ► It's a terrible name.

00:23:25 ◼   ► I love it.

00:23:26 ◼   ► HomePod and HousePod, they're totally different.

00:23:28 ◼   ► Totally different, yeah.

00:23:30 ◼   ► Totally different.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Totally different.

00:23:32 ◼   ► So this device is, I think, somewhat unexpectedly to me,

00:23:37 ◼   ► expected to debut as early as March of next year

00:23:42 ◼   ► and be, Mark calls it, like, competitively priced

00:23:46 ◼   ► to products in the category.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Yeah, that's really interesting.

00:23:49 ◼   ► I mean, again, this is where my rule comes into effect,

00:23:56 ◼   ► where it's my classic don't,

00:23:58 ◼   ► be prepared for disappointment rule,

00:24:00 ◼   ► where you're like, oh, it's going to be competitively priced

00:24:03 ◼   ► with a product that costs, you know, whatever, $200 or,

00:24:07 ◼   ► like, the Echo Show is at 150, the Echo Hub is 180,

00:24:11 ◼   ► the Nest Hub Max costs 230.

00:24:13 ◼   ► I'm like, okay, well, again, so that's, so it's a 230,

00:24:17 ◼   ► but we're going to round it up to 250,

00:24:19 ◼   ► and then we're going to increase it to 300, 350?

00:24:23 ◼   ► I mean, still, it's not $1,000.

00:24:25 ◼   ► We had a whole segment a few weeks ago

00:24:27 ◼   ► where we were worried about the robotic limb product

00:24:30 ◼   ► and it being $1,000 for a, you know,

00:24:33 ◼   ► a thing you put on your kitchen counter,

00:24:36 ◼   ► and it seemed bananas.

00:24:38 ◼   ► This, I love the idea of it being competitively priced,

00:24:42 ◼   ► even if it's for Apple, that's a good thing.

00:24:45 ◼   ► And if it can make it 250 or 200, then amazing, right?

00:24:49 ◼   ► Like, also, we have to say,

00:24:52 ◼   ► Kerman's report suggests that it's got accessories.

00:24:55 ◼   ► So this is really interesting to me

00:24:57 ◼   ► because we've been talking about a HomePod with a screen,

00:25:01 ◼   ► and it sounds like it's what if it's a touchscreen device

00:25:05 ◼   ► that's less than an iPad?

00:25:06 ◼   ► It's not an iPad.

00:25:07 ◼   ► It's definitely lesser than that,

00:25:09 ◼   ► and it's got a simplified interface.

00:25:11 ◼   ► But then there's, like, a wall mount

00:25:14 ◼   ► that's probably got, like, a charger on it

00:25:16 ◼   ► that you can attach various ways,

00:25:19 ◼   ► and then there's a speaker mount,

00:25:21 ◼   ► which I would read that as being basically like a HomePod

00:25:25 ◼   ► that it sits on and that gives it power that way.

00:25:30 ◼   ► Those, right, so we're like, "Oh, competitively priced."

00:25:33 ◼   ► But, like, if it's competitively priced

00:25:34 ◼   ► with, like, an iPad speaker and $200,

00:25:38 ◼   ► but you're really gonna want, if you don't own HomePods,

00:25:40 ◼   ► you're really gonna want to buy the speaker attachment

00:25:42 ◼   ► for another $250 or $300 or whatever, right?

00:25:46 ◼   ► It will be a classic Apple move.

00:25:48 ◼   ► It will get pricey fast.

00:25:50 ◼   ► And I actually kind of love that as a move for Apple

00:25:53 ◼   ► to sell this thing at a relatively competitive price

00:25:56 ◼   ► and then say, "Yeah, but you really want the accessories,

00:25:59 ◼   ► don't you?" That's a very Apple thing to do.

00:26:02 ◼   ► -Yeah, so you mentioned this wall mount speaker docks,

00:26:04 ◼   ► but it has a battery of its own and speakers of its own.

00:26:07 ◼   ► But I guess if you want to use it for certain things,

00:26:10 ◼   ► you might put it on the kitchen counter speaker dock

00:26:15 ◼   ► so you can watch movies while you're cooking,

00:26:17 ◼   ► and then maybe you want to put it on the wall

00:26:19 ◼   ► the rest of the time so it becomes, like,

00:26:21 ◼   ► the thing that people go to look for.

00:26:22 ◼   ► -We've got a little wood stand for an iPad for the kitchen.

00:26:27 ◼   ► It's like a wood block thing.

00:26:29 ◼   ► And it's nice.

00:26:31 ◼   ► And I could see putting something like that in there

00:26:34 ◼   ► and then, like, plugging it into an outlet.

00:26:36 ◼   ► And that's not a fancy dock. That's just free.

00:26:40 ◼   ► But you could do that, too.

00:26:41 ◼   ► But, yeah, having the battery in it

00:26:42 ◼   ► means that it can also be portable.

00:26:45 ◼   ► And who knows what the battery life will be on it,

00:26:47 ◼   ► but you might have the ability to sort of, like,

00:26:49 ◼   ► yeah, unplug it from wherever it lives

00:26:51 ◼   ► and then bring it with you and then, you know,

00:26:54 ◼   ► use it in the kitchen or put it on the coffee table or whatever.

00:26:57 ◼   ► -It will also feature a sensor to determine

00:27:00 ◼   ► how far away a user is from the device

00:27:02 ◼   ► and adapt the on-screen UI to match that.

00:27:06 ◼   ► Just thought it was interesting. -Could be interesting.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, there's --

00:27:09 ◼   ► It's apparently going to support Apple intelligence, right,

00:27:12 ◼   ► which means that it's going to have enough kind of, like,

00:27:15 ◼   ► sensors and ability to run models on it

00:27:18 ◼   ► that stuff like this --

00:27:19 ◼   ► There are versions of this that happen for other devices.

00:27:22 ◼   ► Like, even my Google Nest Home Mini Pro Max,

00:27:27 ◼   ► whatever it's called,

00:27:30 ◼   ► there's so many names in that product.

00:27:31 ◼   ► I don't even remember what it is anymore.

00:27:32 ◼   ► Nest Hub Home Mini.

00:27:35 ◼   ► It's got -- You can wave your hand at it

00:27:39 ◼   ► to dismiss an alert, right?

00:27:40 ◼   ► Like, it's got some stuff like that.

00:27:41 ◼   ► But I like this idea that, like, if you're far away,

00:27:43 ◼   ► it's going to give you the big interface,

00:27:46 ◼   ► and if you're right next to it,

00:27:47 ◼   ► it's going to give you a smaller interface.

00:27:48 ◼   ► That's smart. That's really smart.

00:27:51 ◼   ► I wanted to just -- I just thought maybe

00:27:52 ◼   ► they just call this thing Apple Home.

00:27:55 ◼   ► I mean, it would be just as confusing as Apple TV,

00:27:58 ◼   ► but that didn't stop them there.

00:28:00 ◼   ► Like, because I thought, no, they can't call it that

00:28:01 ◼   ► because they have an app called the Home app,

00:28:02 ◼   ► and then I realized, oh, Apple TV Plus is part of Apple TV,

00:28:05 ◼   ► which is an app that is on the Apple TV.

00:28:07 ◼   ► So at this point, it's probably --

00:28:09 ◼   ► I put my chips down on Apple Home

00:28:11 ◼   ► as the name of this product.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Okay.

00:28:15 ◼   ► Quote from Mark Gurman, "The product has a touch interface

00:28:17 ◼   ► that looks like a blend of the Apple Watch operating system

00:28:20 ◼   ► and the iPhone's recently launched standby mode."

00:28:24 ◼   ► That's unexpected and weird, and I can't imagine it.

00:28:26 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

00:28:27 ◼   ► What is going on there?

00:28:29 ◼   ► That can't be right.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Well, that's somebody who's describing it, who saw it,

00:28:33 ◼   ► and is describing it to Mark Gurman.

00:28:35 ◼   ► It's the parable of the men and the elephant, right?

00:28:39 ◼   ► The blind men and the elephant.

00:28:40 ◼   ► Everybody's got a different description of it,

00:28:41 ◼   ► and then you're playing a game of telephone almost,

00:28:45 ◼   ► where you're like, "Oh, it looks like this."

00:28:46 ◼   ► Like, "Oh, does it?"

00:28:47 ◼   ► But we don't really know.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Apple Watch seems weird,

00:28:50 ◼   ► but like simplified operating system, okay.

00:28:52 ◼   ► Like, there are complications,

00:28:54 ◼   ► and then there's the chain of little mini widgets

00:28:58 ◼   ► that are basically Dynamic Island items

00:29:01 ◼   ► that are on the Apple Watch now,

00:29:03 ◼   ► and then there's standby mode on the iPhone,

00:29:06 ◼   ► recently launched, like more than a year ago, but okay.

00:29:10 ◼   ► But clearly, this is where they're going,

00:29:14 ◼   ► is that they're gonna have this small screen,

00:29:15 ◼   ► but they've got a bunch of technology already in existence

00:29:18 ◼   ► that lets them put widget-like things on a small screen,

00:29:23 ◼   ► or on a slightly larger screen,

00:29:26 ◼   ► but seen from a distance, right?

00:29:27 ◼   ► That's the other part of what they're doing here.

00:29:30 ◼   ► I think that's, again,

00:29:32 ◼   ► I don't know quite what form this is taking,

00:29:35 ◼   ► and there's some challenges with things

00:29:37 ◼   ► like standby mode as well,

00:29:38 ◼   ► and standby mode is not an interactive mode,

00:29:40 ◼   ► which is the other part of this.

00:29:43 ◼   ► I assume that there's a standby mode-esque thing

00:29:46 ◼   ► where you're not interacting with it,

00:29:48 ◼   ► and then when you come close or you touch it or whatever,

00:29:50 ◼   ► then there's an interaction mode

00:29:51 ◼   ► that's a completely different kind of interface.

00:29:54 ◼   ► - So as you mentioned, it will support Apple Intelligence,

00:29:57 ◼   ► and Mark says it has apparently been designed

00:29:59 ◼   ► for AppIntents support,

00:30:01 ◼   ► but some other details of his article suggest

00:30:05 ◼   ► it won't have an app store of its own.

00:30:07 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:30:08 ◼   ► - Apple will be making a suite of first-party apps,

00:30:10 ◼   ► so the core apps you'd expect.

00:30:12 ◼   ► So where are the AppIntents coming from?

00:30:17 ◼   ► - Inside the house, I guess?

00:30:19 ◼   ► - So my expectation is, and I saw Underscore

00:30:22 ◼   ► was talking about this too in regards to widgets,

00:30:26 ◼   ► that I might expect here that this device

00:30:30 ◼   ► is pulling from other devices in the house, right?

00:30:34 ◼   ► If you're at home, your phone is at home,

00:30:36 ◼   ► and so you're using this thing,

00:30:38 ◼   ► and it may be pulling widgets, AppIntents information

00:30:42 ◼   ► from your phone in the way that a Mac does now

00:30:46 ◼   ► or the way that an Apple Watch does

00:30:48 ◼   ► as a way to kind of bridge the gap

00:30:51 ◼   ► to not have another app store,

00:30:55 ◼   ► another development point for developers

00:30:58 ◼   ► to just pull some information from the other devices

00:31:02 ◼   ► that are in the home.

00:31:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, so let's start with AppIntents.

00:31:08 ◼   ► My guess is that where that's starting,

00:31:12 ◼   ► and it's just starting there, is Apple's own stuff.

00:31:17 ◼   ► It's the idea that Apple's got some knowledge

00:31:22 ◼   ► of your information that runs on this device

00:31:24 ◼   ► and that you can control the software using Siri.

00:31:28 ◼   ► But I think this is a challenge

00:31:32 ◼   ► because you can't have it not be functional

00:31:35 ◼   ► when your iPhone leaves the house, right?

00:31:38 ◼   ► So it's gotta be functional on that level.

00:31:39 ◼   ► But we already see with the HomePod

00:31:41 ◼   ► that they've got this personal requests kind of thing

00:31:43 ◼   ► where it allows it to tap into an iPhone

00:31:46 ◼   ► that's on the network that is paired with the Apple ID.

00:31:49 ◼   ► And then it'll also do voice recognition.

00:31:51 ◼   ► And there are things they can do there

00:31:53 ◼   ► about who's using this and what data do I have access to.

00:31:57 ◼   ► But yes, the idea of AppIntents really

00:32:01 ◼   ► is that you can extend the vocabulary of Siri

00:32:04 ◼   ► and of Apple intelligence by tapping into the functionality

00:32:09 ◼   ► of third-party apps,

00:32:11 ◼   ► which aren't gonna exist on this apparently.

00:32:13 ◼   ► So you end up in this question of sort of like,

00:32:15 ◼   ► well, what is this thing?

00:32:16 ◼   ► And I love the idea that Underscore had,

00:32:20 ◼   ► that is what if the Mac widget projection system

00:32:25 ◼   ► that shipped, well, it's not--

00:32:28 ◼   ► - Lost year? - It shipped last year.

00:32:30 ◼   ► And then now it's more,

00:32:32 ◼   ► and it's more integrated this year

00:32:33 ◼   ► because they've got the iPhone mirroring

00:32:36 ◼   ► and the notifications will launch the iPhone

00:32:38 ◼   ► and things like that.

00:32:39 ◼   ► But it shipped last year.

00:32:41 ◼   ► What if that is a test run and that,

00:32:45 ◼   ► and obviously David Smith, Underscore,

00:32:47 ◼   ► is thinking about WidgetSmith, his app, third-party app.

00:32:51 ◼   ► If it doesn't have access to the device,

00:32:52 ◼   ► what does that mean?

00:32:53 ◼   ► Well, what if it does have access to the device?

00:32:56 ◼   ► Because what if it is looking at your iPhone

00:32:58 ◼   ► and knows that your iPhone has WidgetSmith on it

00:33:00 ◼   ► and has that widget that can run in standby,

00:33:03 ◼   ► and it says, I can run that too.

00:33:05 ◼   ► I can show that thing from your phone,

00:33:07 ◼   ► which makes this thing much more of an iPhone accessory,

00:33:10 ◼   ► which I think is interesting.

00:33:11 ◼   ► Now it's gonna have to fall back

00:33:13 ◼   ► 'cause if you leave the house

00:33:14 ◼   ► and you don't have your iPhone anymore

00:33:16 ◼   ► and somebody else in the house is looking at that screen,

00:33:18 ◼   ► it's gotta have something on it, right?

00:33:21 ◼   ► It's gotta be useful in some way.

00:33:23 ◼   ► And the question is like,

00:33:25 ◼   ► how much infrastructure do they have to build

00:33:27 ◼   ► on the iPhone to support this thing?

00:33:30 ◼   ► Because that's a big deal, right?

00:33:32 ◼   ► They have to do an OS update on the iPhone

00:33:35 ◼   ► to project things onto this device

00:33:37 ◼   ► or sync things with these devices.

00:33:39 ◼   ► And what we haven't seen with any devices,

00:33:41 ◼   ► Apple intelligence sort of like working

00:33:44 ◼   ► with another device's data store.

00:33:47 ◼   ► 'Cause that's a thing you could do here too

00:33:48 ◼   ► with like all of the personal,

00:33:52 ◼   ► the semantic index thing, right?

00:33:55 ◼   ► Like is my Apple home thing going to download all my email

00:34:00 ◼   ► and index it or is it going to just talk to my iPhone

00:34:05 ◼   ► about what email it knows about

00:34:06 ◼   ► and what my personal context is?

00:34:08 ◼   ► - I think however they do this,

00:34:10 ◼   ► so like my initial thought in saying no app stores,

00:34:12 ◼   ► that's madness because like,

00:34:13 ◼   ► how would I watch YouTube videos?

00:34:15 ◼   ► But then my second thought is,

00:34:17 ◼   ► well, I think the Vision Pro has shown

00:34:19 ◼   ► it's becoming harder and harder to get them

00:34:21 ◼   ► to make developers wanna make apps for new platforms.

00:34:24 ◼   ► So if Apple is able to find a way,

00:34:27 ◼   ► I don't know how, right?

00:34:28 ◼   ► But find a way to benefit from the apps

00:34:32 ◼   ► that you have installed on another device

00:34:34 ◼   ► inside of your home, they should do that.

00:34:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, what I don't understand here

00:34:40 ◼   ► is why they aren't supporting iPad apps

00:34:42 ◼   ► or iPhone apps or TV OS apps, right?

00:34:45 ◼   ► Like that there isn't like an app compatibility.

00:34:49 ◼   ► I get it, it's a weird screen

00:34:50 ◼   ► and it's not like the other screens and all of that.

00:34:52 ◼   ► But especially if you're dealing with widgets

00:34:54 ◼   ► and app intents and look, Mike, for all we know,

00:34:59 ◼   ► that is what they're gonna do

00:35:00 ◼   ► is there won't be an app store,

00:35:02 ◼   ► but you'll be able to sync over,

00:35:05 ◼   ► like I wouldn't put past Apple

00:35:07 ◼   ► for them to make this announcement and say,

00:35:08 ◼   ► hey, developers, good news.

00:35:10 ◼   ► There's a new set of APIs that allow you to sync over

00:35:13 ◼   ► some level of code that drives widgets from your iPhone

00:35:17 ◼   ► and then they reside on this device

00:35:18 ◼   ► and they run on this device.

00:35:19 ◼   ► And it's like, whoa, that's wild, but they could do it.

00:35:22 ◼   ► If they wanted to, they could say,

00:35:24 ◼   ► actually there's no app store

00:35:25 ◼   ► because it runs apps from your iPhone,

00:35:28 ◼   ► but in a certain mode and it picks them up

00:35:32 ◼   ► from your Apple ID and downloads the right thing

00:35:34 ◼   ► and does the right thing and syncs it

00:35:36 ◼   ► with your iPhone apps.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And there may be no facility for that today,

00:35:42 ◼   ► but there's nothing stopping them from saying,

00:35:44 ◼   ► we just added it, go, hey, developers, hey, David Smith,

00:35:48 ◼   ► go add this thing in so that your widgets run on this.

00:35:51 ◼   ► They could totally do that.

00:35:52 ◼   ► So it does, David Schaub in our chat says,

00:35:56 ◼   ► it feels like we're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

00:35:59 ◼   ► And I agree, there is the fact that it is not as simple

00:36:03 ◼   ► a story as, oh, and it's gonna run iPad apps,

00:36:05 ◼   ► or it's gonna run iPhone apps,

00:36:07 ◼   ► or it's gonna run tvOS apps.

00:36:08 ◼   ► - Or it has its own app store,

00:36:10 ◼   ► which is another thing to do,

00:36:12 ◼   ► which is I think the wrong thing to do.

00:36:14 ◼   ► - It's not any of that.

00:36:15 ◼   ► The simplest explanation is,

00:36:17 ◼   ► it's gonna start with Apple stock stuff that it's built,

00:36:21 ◼   ► and then they'll see how it does,

00:36:24 ◼   ► and that they will then expand it later.

00:36:28 ◼   ► But I would argue that that makes Standby less interesting.

00:36:32 ◼   ► It makes the full experience a little less interesting,

00:36:35 ◼   ► but it's a lot less ambitious, but it's a lot simpler

00:36:38 ◼   ► if you've got basically Safari and the Home app

00:36:44 ◼   ► and the TV app and a very limited selection of stuff

00:36:48 ◼   ► that you can do that they've already built.

00:36:51 ◼   ► It makes this product way simpler at the very least.

00:36:54 ◼   ► But it is a mystery that there are all these details

00:36:56 ◼   ► about App Intents and no app store, but widgets that,

00:37:01 ◼   ► like the simple explanation is,

00:37:03 ◼   ► it will be way simpler than we think.

00:37:04 ◼   ► But I wouldn't put it past Apple

00:37:06 ◼   ► that there's a little added idea

00:37:09 ◼   ► or a bit of complexity that we don't know about.

00:37:11 ◼   ► And I think that's good because one of my big complaints

00:37:13 ◼   ► about something like the HomePod is that

00:37:16 ◼   ► it's not integrated enough with the contents of your phone.

00:37:21 ◼   ► If Apple really views the iPhone as the repository

00:37:24 ◼   ► for people's personal information,

00:37:26 ◼   ► then if your iPhone is present in your house

00:37:30 ◼   ► when you're there, your devices on the network,

00:37:33 ◼   ► your Apple devices that are authenticated

00:37:35 ◼   ► and also logged into your Apple ID

00:37:37 ◼   ► should be able to leverage that device,

00:37:39 ◼   ► which has all that knowledge,

00:37:41 ◼   ► and in the future, your semantic index, to do stuff.

00:37:44 ◼   ► And if you throw in also the apps that are on it

00:37:47 ◼   ► and the standby widgets that are on it

00:37:48 ◼   ► and the desktop or a notification center

00:37:52 ◼   ► or lock screen widgets that are on it,

00:37:53 ◼   ► all of those things are already running on it.

00:37:56 ◼   ► Maybe the other Apple devices in the home

00:37:59 ◼   ► should be smarter about using those.

00:38:01 ◼   ► And then separately for multiple people should be,

00:38:05 ◼   ► like Apple already has the technology

00:38:07 ◼   ► to recognize you based on your voice

00:38:09 ◼   ► and differentiate you from other people.

00:38:11 ◼   ► So the other way you take this is,

00:38:13 ◼   ► and this is gonna have a camera,

00:38:14 ◼   ► so maybe it would even be able to detect you by your face

00:38:17 ◼   ► to just say, "Oh, this request came from this person,

00:38:20 ◼   ► "so I'm gonna use their iPhone."

00:38:21 ◼   ► And then you've got a device that adapts

00:38:23 ◼   ► based on who's using it, which again, sounds really good,

00:38:27 ◼   ► but a little more complicated.

00:38:28 ◼   ► And that brings me back to like,

00:38:30 ◼   ► how complicated is Apple gonna make this?

00:38:32 ◼   ► Let's make this a little tangent to my thing

00:38:38 ◼   ► about pricing, where the pricing's always

00:38:40 ◼   ► gonna disappoint you,

00:38:41 ◼   ► because it's gonna be higher than you think.

00:38:43 ◼   ► I would also say the Apple products that ship

00:38:46 ◼   ► are always gonna be simpler than you think.

00:38:49 ◼   ► There's all any number of things they could do,

00:38:51 ◼   ► they won't do most of them,

00:38:53 ◼   ► but they might do a little bit,

00:38:54 ◼   ► because I agree, I think the vanilla version of this is fine,

00:38:58 ◼   ► but these reports suggest it's not quite that.

00:39:01 ◼   ► So I think they're gonna do something,

00:39:03 ◼   ► but I don't think it's gonna be a big chain of complexity,

00:39:06 ◼   ► in part because that would be very expensive,

00:39:08 ◼   ► and in part because they wanna ship the product, right?

00:39:11 ◼   ► And like, if it does well, then they're like,

00:39:12 ◼   ► "Aha, now we have a plan of attack

00:39:14 ◼   ► for how we add to this going forward."

00:39:17 ◼   ► So, but I do think there's a missing piece here.

00:39:19 ◼   ► It is a little bit confusing.

00:39:21 ◼   ► I love my iPhone in standby mode.

00:39:23 ◼   ► I leave it in the kitchen,

00:39:25 ◼   ► and it's got a weather widget on it

00:39:26 ◼   ► that I built in Scriptable, and it's got the time,

00:39:28 ◼   ► and it's actually really nice.

00:39:30 ◼   ► And I would love for that sort of thing

00:39:34 ◼   ► to run on one of these devices.

00:39:35 ◼   ► It would be disappointing if all I get anywhere

00:39:38 ◼   ► is the very, very stock Apple experience,

00:39:42 ◼   ► like you're using an iPhone with no third-party apps.

00:39:45 ◼   ► That would be a lot less exciting.

00:39:48 ◼   ► - Another little tidbit in this report,

00:39:50 ◼   ► which is separated from the Apple Home device,

00:39:54 ◼   ► from Mark Gorman, says, "Apple has explored building

00:39:56 ◼   ► its own line of smart home accessories,

00:39:58 ◼   ► including an indoor security camera

00:40:00 ◼   ► that could double as a baby monitor.

00:40:02 ◼   ► The idea would be to emphasize privacy controls,

00:40:04 ◼   ► one of Apple's hallmarks."

00:40:06 ◼   ► I will now also go to Ming-Chi Kuo,

00:40:09 ◼   ► who is reporting that Apple may make

00:40:11 ◼   ► its own smart home camera in 2026.

00:40:14 ◼   ► Kuo says Apple expects this to be a major accessory

00:40:17 ◼   ► with targets to ship tens of millions of units a year,

00:40:21 ◼   ► to which I say, "Whoa, buddy."

00:40:23 ◼   ► Ah, that's aggressive.

00:40:26 ◼   ► That's aggressive.

00:40:26 ◼   ► Tens of millions of units?

00:40:28 ◼   ► That's a lot of units.

00:40:30 ◼   ► Like, maybe this is an interesting idea for them,

00:40:32 ◼   ► but I don't, yeah, that would have to be really good

00:40:36 ◼   ► to get people to either decide to do something

00:40:38 ◼   ► they never wanted to do,

00:40:40 ◼   ► or replace the products they've already bought

00:40:41 ◼   ► because Apple hasn't done it,

00:40:43 ◼   ► and then to ship tens of millions of units a year

00:40:46 ◼   ► would be aggressive.

00:40:48 ◼   ► - Here's my reaction to this.

00:40:52 ◼   ► My reaction to this is that I wonder how big

00:40:57 ◼   ► the potential market for this category is

00:40:59 ◼   ► versus what's out there now.

00:41:01 ◼   ► And based on my exploration,

00:41:03 ◼   ► and I've bought a bunch of different

00:41:05 ◼   ► internet-connected cameras over the last few years,

00:41:08 ◼   ► and I've been disappointed with every single one of them,

00:41:12 ◼   ► every single one of them is not very good.

00:41:15 ◼   ► Whether they're using their own cloud service,

00:41:17 ◼   ► or they're recording to a memory card in a base station,

00:41:21 ◼   ► or whether they're using HomeKit Secure Video,

00:41:24 ◼   ► none of them are reliable.

00:41:28 ◼   ► They're always, I'm like, "Oh, let's check on this camera.

00:41:30 ◼   ► "Oh, it's down.

00:41:31 ◼   ► "Why is it down?

00:41:31 ◼   ► "Don't know.

00:41:32 ◼   ► "No reason.

00:41:33 ◼   ► "Oh, it's back up now."

00:41:35 ◼   ► I find them very unreliable.

00:41:38 ◼   ► And so first off, I'm a little skeptical

00:41:41 ◼   ► that even the market that's out there,

00:41:43 ◼   ► how many people are actually using them.

00:41:45 ◼   ► I'm sure there are the more expensive kinds,

00:41:48 ◼   ► and things that are hardwired,

00:41:49 ◼   ► and all this stuff that are better.

00:41:51 ◼   ► But based on my experience with this category,

00:41:54 ◼   ► I would say there's room for Apple in it.

00:41:58 ◼   ► I'll put it that way.

00:41:59 ◼   ► There's room for Apple here to make something that is pricey,

00:42:02 ◼   ► 'cause it's Apple, but good.

00:42:05 ◼   ► And if they could do that,

00:42:06 ◼   ► if they can make a pricey, good, easy to set up

00:42:09 ◼   ► for people in an Apple ecosystem set of cameras,

00:42:13 ◼   ► have it be, the baby monitor thing is interesting.

00:42:16 ◼   ► It's the idea that you can put this, it's an indoor camera,

00:42:19 ◼   ► and you can use it as a baby monitor,

00:42:21 ◼   ► and set it up to do walk.

00:42:24 ◼   ► They've got all the parts, right?

00:42:25 ◼   ► They've got intercom,

00:42:28 ◼   ► and they've got alerts based on sound.

00:42:31 ◼   ► They could build some stuff with this

00:42:33 ◼   ► that would be perfectly fine.

00:42:35 ◼   ► - And you have an element of comfort with Apple

00:42:38 ◼   ► in regards to that product of,

00:42:40 ◼   ► there's not gonna be some privacy breach or something,

00:42:43 ◼   ► and someone can't, the boogeyman,

00:42:45 ◼   ► come and watch the camera or whatever.

00:42:47 ◼   ► - It'll all be HomeKit secure video,

00:42:50 ◼   ► or you might have the ability to store it locally

00:42:52 ◼   ► on another device.

00:42:54 ◼   ► I think it's an interesting idea,

00:42:56 ◼   ► and I think, again, it's because of my experience

00:42:59 ◼   ► with this category, I feel like there's probably

00:43:02 ◼   ► a large, unaddressed market of people

00:43:05 ◼   ► who might want these things, but just don't.

00:43:08 ◼   ► Either have tried it and have failed,

00:43:10 ◼   ► or have never even considered it.

00:43:11 ◼   ► The fact is, I don't know, I'm sure there are people

00:43:16 ◼   ► who out there will say,

00:43:17 ◼   ► "Well, there's so many Ring doorbells out there,

00:43:19 ◼   ► "so this must be fine."

00:43:20 ◼   ► It's like, okay, yeah, maybe so,

00:43:22 ◼   ► and remember how long ago was it that there was Dropcam,

00:43:25 ◼   ► and now that's just a Nest Cam from Google.

00:43:29 ◼   ► These cameras have been around for a long time,

00:43:31 ◼   ► but that doesn't mean that Apple can't come in and say,

00:43:34 ◼   ► "Well, ours is way better, more reliable."

00:43:38 ◼   ► For something that's looking inside your home,

00:43:40 ◼   ► you need to have trust in who's doing it.

00:43:43 ◼   ► I think there are a lot of areas where,

00:43:45 ◼   ► when I saw this report, I thought, "I can see it.

00:43:47 ◼   ► "I could see Apple making a run here

00:43:49 ◼   ► "and having it be successful because of the way they sell it

00:43:53 ◼   ► "and because if they can do it right,

00:43:55 ◼   ► "they're entering a market that's not great."

00:43:57 ◼   ► There are plenty of players, but again, my experience is,

00:44:00 ◼   ► they're not very good.

00:44:01 ◼   ► So I think it's an interesting idea.

00:44:03 ◼   ► - They do have a good play.

00:44:05 ◼   ► They're obviously, they're understanding

00:44:06 ◼   ► of cameras and video and their security.

00:44:09 ◼   ► Like, it would help them build a compelling story.

00:44:14 ◼   ► There's one last thing I wanna bring in now,

00:44:18 ◼   ► and then I wanna make another point.

00:44:19 ◼   ► So Mark Gurman also mentioned in his Power On newsletter

00:44:23 ◼   ► that Apple is, quote, "Evaluating the idea

00:44:25 ◼   ► "of making a TV set again, like an actual TV,

00:44:30 ◼   ► "and that this would hinge on the success

00:44:32 ◼   ► "of Apple's other smart home devices."

00:44:34 ◼   ► So this Apple Home Hub device, maybe this camera.

00:44:38 ◼   ► I want Apple to make these kinds of products

00:44:40 ◼   ► because I would like them.

00:44:42 ◼   ► However, I am concerned about Apple making

00:44:47 ◼   ► all these new products.

00:44:49 ◼   ► Why are they doing this?

00:44:50 ◼   ► I worry that this is being done to fill an earnings report.

00:44:55 ◼   ► - I was gonna say, it's to bend the curve

00:44:59 ◼   ► of the wearables, home, and accessories

00:45:01 ◼   ► category into growth again.

00:45:02 ◼   ► - And I'm not sure that that is,

00:45:05 ◼   ► like all of these products, Apple should have done

00:45:07 ◼   ► five years ago, 10 years ago, even.

00:45:10 ◼   ► - So I agree.

00:45:13 ◼   ► I think that Apple abandoning the home market

00:45:15 ◼   ► was a huge mistake on their part.

00:45:17 ◼   ► I mean, they're doing fine, but like,

00:45:19 ◼   ► I think they could have played in a bunch of these areas

00:45:21 ◼   ► and they allowed competitors to get into those areas too.

00:45:24 ◼   ► But does that mean they should never do it?

00:45:27 ◼   ► I guess that's my take on it is like,

00:45:29 ◼   ► yes, this is better late than never is my answer, right?

00:45:33 ◼   ► That you should have done this five years ago.

00:45:36 ◼   ► You should have done this in all sorts

00:45:37 ◼   ► of different categories, not the low margin stuff,

00:45:40 ◼   ► but like enough for you to make a line of products

00:45:42 ◼   ► that are gonna bring people into Apple stores

00:45:45 ◼   ► over the holidays and they're gonna add them in.

00:45:47 ◼   ► Because if today's Apple, this is the thing

00:45:50 ◼   ► that's a little baffling about the home category for me.

00:45:52 ◼   ► If today's Apple is anything, it is a company

00:45:56 ◼   ► that is designed to maximize the extraction of money

00:46:01 ◼   ► from people in its ecosystem, right?

00:46:04 ◼   ► You get an iPhone, but then you get an iPad

00:46:06 ◼   ► 'cause it's like an iPhone and you get a Mac

00:46:08 ◼   ► because if you're gonna get a computer,

00:46:09 ◼   ► why not have it work with your iPhone really well?

00:46:11 ◼   ► And then you're looking at a streamer box and it's like,

00:46:13 ◼   ► yeah, well, I'm already in Apple's ecosystem

00:46:15 ◼   ► and Apple TV's a little pricey,

00:46:16 ◼   ► but it's nicer than the others.

00:46:17 ◼   ► And there's gonna be ads that are on Amazon.

00:46:19 ◼   ► Okay, I'll buy that too.

00:46:20 ◼   ► And then I'm gonna subscribe to Apple TV

00:46:23 ◼   ► or maybe the Apple One bundle.

00:46:24 ◼   ► And that is what Apple and Tim Cook's Apple in particular

00:46:27 ◼   ► is great at, is just building up this entire shell

00:46:32 ◼   ► of Apple ecosystem and everything inside it.

00:46:36 ◼   ► And you can go outside it, but there are reasons

00:46:39 ◼   ► you might wanna stay inside it,

00:46:41 ◼   ► at least for many of the products.

00:46:42 ◼   ► And I'm not saying this from a perspective

00:46:44 ◼   ► of it being against competition or anything.

00:46:49 ◼   ► I'm just saying it's a good way,

00:46:51 ◼   ► you love our products, buy more of them.

00:46:53 ◼   ► It's a brand relationship.

00:46:55 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be sinister.

00:46:57 ◼   ► And a lot of us feel this where it's like,

00:46:59 ◼   ► yeah, when we talk about wifi, it was like,

00:47:02 ◼   ► well, I mean, I've got an Eero,

00:47:05 ◼   ► people have the Netgear stuff,

00:47:07 ◼   ► people have the Ubiquiti stuff.

00:47:09 ◼   ► But there's a lot of nostalgia for like airport

00:47:12 ◼   ► where it's like, oh, remember when Apple just sold you

00:47:14 ◼   ► a wifi thing and you could forget about it?

00:47:17 ◼   ► And like, we can talk about whether that's kind of

00:47:19 ◼   ► a nostalgic rosy glow and that there weren't problems

00:47:22 ◼   ► with airport base stations anyway,

00:47:23 ◼   ► but like they abandoned that category.

00:47:26 ◼   ► And partly we look back and we're like,

00:47:27 ◼   ► oh, wouldn't that be simpler to just buy the Apple thing?

00:47:30 ◼   ► So that's the thing that's perplexing

00:47:32 ◼   ► about the last five years is that Apple

00:47:36 ◼   ► didn't identify this as a place

00:47:38 ◼   ► where they could sell a whole bunch of stuff

00:47:40 ◼   ► to a whole bunch of people in their ecosystem

00:47:42 ◼   ► and make even more revenue and tie it even further

00:47:44 ◼   ► into your iPhone and your Mac and everything else.

00:47:48 ◼   ► Because it does sound very much like them.

00:47:51 ◼   ► So maybe the answer is they had leadership changes,

00:47:54 ◼   ► their eyes were on other products,

00:47:55 ◼   ► and now the people in charge at Apple of the home stuff

00:47:58 ◼   ► have been charged to make that happen.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Because you said, you know,

00:48:04 ◼   ► it's about a balance sheet a little bit.

00:48:05 ◼   ► I think it is.

00:48:07 ◼   ► I think maybe though in modern Apple,

00:48:09 ◼   ► that's what it took is for them to see wearables,

00:48:11 ◼   ► home and accessories cooling and say,

00:48:13 ◼   ► well, what do we do to warm it up?

00:48:15 ◼   ► And somebody said,

00:48:16 ◼   ► well, we have completely abandoned home accessories

00:48:19 ◼   ► and there are some high profile,

00:48:21 ◼   ► high margin products that we could do in that category

00:48:24 ◼   ► that would make us really successful.

00:48:26 ◼   ► And so we should do those.

00:48:28 ◼   ► And then somebody, Tim Cook said,

00:48:30 ◼   ► yeah, okay, let's put some effort into that.

00:48:33 ◼   ► That's my best guess is that that's what they're doing here.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Now the TV, my theory about the TV, by the way,

00:48:40 ◼   ► 'cause I don't understand it.

00:48:41 ◼   ► I don't know why you would do that.

00:48:42 ◼   ► I don't know why.

00:48:43 ◼   ► I just, for everything I've just said, like buying a TV,

00:48:47 ◼   ► it just doesn't seem to be a good match.

00:48:49 ◼   ► The competition is not very high margin.

00:48:53 ◼   ► It's not a place where Apple can add a whole lot

00:48:56 ◼   ► because you could just buy a nice new TV

00:48:59 ◼   ► and put an Apple TV box on it.

00:49:01 ◼   ► Apple TV runs inside of most of these devices.

00:49:04 ◼   ► My only guess about the TV scuttlebutt

00:49:07 ◼   ► is that they might be considering

00:49:10 ◼   ► building their next line of displays

00:49:13 ◼   ► with Apple TV brains in them

00:49:17 ◼   ► because that's what Samsung does.

00:49:18 ◼   ► When I reviewed that Samsung equivalent

00:49:20 ◼   ► of the studio display, it's a smart TV.

00:49:23 ◼   ► It's not just a 27 inch monitor.

00:49:25 ◼   ► It's a smart TV.

00:49:26 ◼   ► - That makes more sense.

00:49:27 ◼   ► - So maybe their argument is we're gonna make some monitors

00:49:30 ◼   ► and they're gonna be TVs

00:49:31 ◼   ► and you can use them as either or both.

00:49:34 ◼   ► And that's okay.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Like I think that's fine.

00:49:37 ◼   ► I think it's kind of dumb that Apple's displays

00:49:40 ◼   ► can't do anything when the computer's not attached to them.

00:49:43 ◼   ► Maybe that would be a thing that they could do,

00:49:46 ◼   ► but it doesn't feel as much of a,

00:49:48 ◼   ► it doesn't make as much sense to me

00:49:52 ◼   ► as these other reports where I think, okay,

00:49:54 ◼   ► like they should have done this five years ago

00:49:56 ◼   ► or 10 years ago, but the next best time is now, right?

00:49:59 ◼   ► So do it now.

00:50:00 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by our friends at Fitbaud.

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00:52:02 ◼   ► - So Jason, you finally got your new Kindles.

00:52:05 ◼   ► I think you got the new Kindle Carla Soft

00:52:07 ◼   ► and the new Kindle Paperwhite, correct?

00:52:09 ◼   ► - I did, I did.

00:52:10 ◼   ► They don't send them to me, so I have to buy them.

00:52:12 ◼   ► So I did buy them.

00:52:13 ◼   ► - Well, thank you for your service.

00:52:15 ◼   ► - It's okay, I'm gonna return them.

00:52:17 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, there we go.

00:52:19 ◼   ► We're not gonna bury the lead on this.

00:52:20 ◼   ► You're not happy with the new 2024 Kindle lineup?

00:52:24 ◼   ► - No, I mean, okay, it's complicated.

00:52:28 ◼   ► So the Paperwhite, the new Paperwhite,

00:52:30 ◼   ► you know, for years the Paperwhite has been the best e-reader

00:52:34 ◼   ► for most people just because it's a good price

00:52:36 ◼   ► and it's a good piece of hardware.

00:52:37 ◼   ► And I think that's still true,

00:52:39 ◼   ► even though I prefer what Kobo is doing,

00:52:41 ◼   ► especially on the software side.

00:52:43 ◼   ► I think that my generic recommendation,

00:52:46 ◼   ► if people are looking for an e-reader,

00:52:47 ◼   ► is get the Paperwhite and they have three versions of it.

00:52:50 ◼   ► There's like a base model with or without ads,

00:52:52 ◼   ► and then there's like the signature edition

00:52:53 ◼   ► that's got like a light sensor,

00:52:55 ◼   ► so it will auto adjust the brightness based on where you are,

00:52:57 ◼   ► which I think is a nice feature.

00:52:59 ◼   ► And it doesn't have ads in it at all, but that's $200.

00:53:04 ◼   ► If you wanna spend 160,

00:53:05 ◼   ► you can get a slightly less nice version

00:53:07 ◼   ► that shows you ads, but it's still a good product.

00:53:09 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:53:10 ◼   ► I don't love it, but it's fine.

00:53:12 ◼   ► And of course I prefer readers with buttons

00:53:15 ◼   ► to turn the page and Kindle, Amazon doesn't believe in it,

00:53:20 ◼   ► doesn't believe in that as a concept.

00:53:21 ◼   ► They're really into like,

00:53:22 ◼   ► you can write on it with a stylus and you can make marks

00:53:25 ◼   ► and we got a color version now,

00:53:27 ◼   ► but buttons are too far, we can't do that.

00:53:30 ◼   ► And so that's a little frustrating for me,

00:53:33 ◼   ► but I don't have a lot to say about the Paperwhite.

00:53:35 ◼   ► It's fine.

00:53:36 ◼   ► I wish I had a Kobo I could recommend instead,

00:53:38 ◼   ► but Kobo stopped building their black and white equivalent

00:53:41 ◼   ► to the Paperwhite.

00:53:43 ◼   ► They have a lower end model, but the one with buttons,

00:53:46 ◼   ► they replaced with a color model

00:53:47 ◼   ► and aren't selling the black and white model anymore.

00:53:49 ◼   ► And the color model doesn't have as good text clarity

00:53:53 ◼   ► as the black and white one.

00:53:54 ◼   ► There's an added kind of texture on the background

00:53:57 ◼   ► of the color screen

00:53:59 ◼   ► that is not there on the black and white screen.

00:54:02 ◼   ► And so if all you're primarily doing is reading texts,

00:54:05 ◼   ► like I'm not opposed to color on e-readers.

00:54:07 ◼   ► I am opposed to color on e-readers

00:54:09 ◼   ► making reading text on e-readers worse

00:54:12 ◼   ► because that's the number one thing by a very wide margin

00:54:15 ◼   ► that I want an e-reader to be good at is the text part.

00:54:18 ◼   ► - Do you think that that buttons on e-readers

00:54:23 ◼   ► is like small iPhones where like there are people

00:54:27 ◼   ► that really want them and really want them a lot

00:54:30 ◼   ► and say is important, but you've got to assume

00:54:35 ◼   ► that the e-reader companies know that people

00:54:38 ◼   ► are using the screens and the buttons, right?

00:54:39 ◼   ► Otherwise they would keep the buttons.

00:54:41 ◼   ► - Kobo has kept the buttons.

00:54:43 ◼   ► I think Amazon has just decided that not enough people

00:54:46 ◼   ► care about buttons for it to make a difference

00:54:48 ◼   ► because they had a high end reader that had buttons

00:54:50 ◼   ► 'cause they decided that with buttons are a high end feature

00:54:52 ◼   ► it's like they're buttons, what are you doing?

00:54:54 ◼   ► So yeah, I am at the point now where as a critic

00:54:58 ◼   ► of technology I'm going to say buttons on e-readers are good

00:55:02 ◼   ► you should give people choices.

00:55:03 ◼   ► You don't have to put buttons on every e-reader

00:55:05 ◼   ► but buttons make an e-reader nicer

00:55:07 ◼   ► for reasons I've talked about a million times

00:55:09 ◼   ► but basically I can hold it in my hand

00:55:10 ◼   ► and rest my finger on the button while I hold the e-reader

00:55:13 ◼   ► and then every time I turn the page

00:55:14 ◼   ► I just squeeze the e-reader.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Whereas with the touchscreen, you gotta change your grip

00:55:20 ◼   ► and it's not as comfortable for me to hold

00:55:22 ◼   ► and I've gotta like use little finger kickstand

00:55:24 ◼   ► kind of thing and then I gotta move my finger over

00:55:26 ◼   ► and then tap and then move it back.

00:55:28 ◼   ► And for me ergonomically it's just superior

00:55:30 ◼   ► to have a button there.

00:55:31 ◼   ► Obviously most people don't care.

00:55:33 ◼   ► I need to criticize it because I think it's a bad decision

00:55:38 ◼   ► while also accepting the fact that most people don't care.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Which is why I recommend that people buy the Paperwhite

00:55:43 ◼   ► if they're looking for a generic e-reader

00:55:45 ◼   ► and not, which has no button and not like the Kobo color

00:55:49 ◼   ► because it's got buttons but it's more expensive

00:55:53 ◼   ► and it doesn't look as good and just don't,

00:55:55 ◼   ► just don't bother.

00:55:56 ◼   ► So, or there's a high-end Kobo that's also nice

00:56:01 ◼   ► but again it's expensive and you don't need it

00:56:03 ◼   ► and the Paperwhite's fine.

00:56:04 ◼   ► Even though I don't like it because it doesn't have buttons,

00:56:07 ◼   ► most people do not care.

00:56:08 ◼   ► The color thing though kills me.

00:56:10 ◼   ► And this is my, so look, my post on Six Colors about this

00:56:13 ◼   ► is as much an essay about how I'm feeling

00:56:15 ◼   ► about the current state of e-readers

00:56:17 ◼   ► as it is a review of these two products

00:56:19 ◼   ► because it feels to me like there was a time,

00:56:22 ◼   ► this heady time when everybody's like,

00:56:23 ◼   ► oh, the future of books is e-readers.

00:56:25 ◼   ► That's what it's gonna be, e-books and e-readers.

00:56:27 ◼   ► And what we found is maybe the future of books

00:56:30 ◼   ► is the past of books, it's books like on paper

00:56:32 ◼   ► and then there are also e-readers

00:56:34 ◼   ► but like they haven't destroyed the printing of books.

00:56:37 ◼   ► A lot of people prefer to just read paper books.

00:56:39 ◼   ► I don't, but a lot of people do and that's fine.

00:56:43 ◼   ► But as a result, Amazon and Rakuten who makes Kobo

00:56:47 ◼   ► and other companies that are trying to make e-readers

00:56:50 ◼   ► are trying to pick up other technology

00:56:52 ◼   ► that's floating around and stick it in e-readers

00:56:55 ◼   ► and see if this, it's like, huh, how about this?

00:56:58 ◼   ► Will this work?

00:56:59 ◼   ► And so like they all have styluses now

00:57:01 ◼   ► where you can do note taking.

00:57:04 ◼   ► Well, on a six or seven inch e-reader,

00:57:06 ◼   ► note taking is stupid.

00:57:08 ◼   ► I just, I think it's a waste.

00:57:10 ◼   ► Like why is that even there?

00:57:12 ◼   ► On a big one like the Kindle Scribe

00:57:14 ◼   ► where you could like have a big PDF and you mark it up,

00:57:17 ◼   ► it makes more sense to me.

00:57:18 ◼   ► I mean, also an iPad would do that, but sure, okay.

00:57:21 ◼   ► I can see it, but they try,

00:57:22 ◼   ► they're trying to shoehorn it in everywhere

00:57:23 ◼   ► because they're just like, will this move the needle

00:57:27 ◼   ► if we add this feature in?

00:57:28 ◼   ► And then the color is one where E-Ink,

00:57:31 ◼   ► the company that makes these displays

00:57:33 ◼   ► has done an amazing job of building a color screen.

00:57:36 ◼   ► It really is remarkable.

00:57:37 ◼   ► And the refresh rates are pretty fast.

00:57:40 ◼   ► As a piece of technology, I can't believe

00:57:42 ◼   ► we've gotten to the point

00:57:43 ◼   ► where the E-Ink stuff looks this good.

00:57:45 ◼   ► But like I said, it actually makes the text worse.

00:57:48 ◼   ► And ultimately, yes, it's impressive

00:57:50 ◼   ► you put color in your e-reader, but why?

00:57:53 ◼   ► And I don't wanna come across as curmudgeonly here.

00:57:56 ◼   ► I wanna come across as being the person who's saying,

00:57:58 ◼   ► what is the user benefit?

00:58:00 ◼   ► Because just shoving new technology in a product

00:58:03 ◼   ► and selling it to people as new is not good enough.

00:58:07 ◼   ► You need to provide reasons why.

00:58:10 ◼   ► And there are reasons for color, like, but color.

00:58:14 ◼   ► And that's not enough.

00:58:17 ◼   ► So what is it?

00:58:18 ◼   ► Well, but book covers.

00:58:19 ◼   ► When you turn it off, that book cover,

00:58:21 ◼   ► if you're not, I guess the Amazon one

00:58:23 ◼   ► doesn't come with ads at the color level, so that's fine.

00:58:25 ◼   ► When you turn it off, the book cover's in color.

00:58:28 ◼   ► Well, yeah, but the backlighting goes off,

00:58:30 ◼   ► so you can't really see the colors.

00:58:32 ◼   ► It's too dim.

00:58:33 ◼   ► Okay, well, when you're shopping for books

00:58:35 ◼   ► or looking at your library,

00:58:37 ◼   ► you'll see little tiny thumbnails that are in color.

00:58:40 ◼   ► Okay, I guess.

00:58:41 ◼   ► Honestly, I turn that feature off

00:58:43 ◼   ► and I just have it be a list anyway,

00:58:45 ◼   ► but all right, it's not really core to the experience.

00:58:49 ◼   ► It's a nice-to-have, it's a little bit nicer.

00:58:51 ◼   ► Oh, but you can highlight in a bunch of different colors.

00:58:54 ◼   ► Okay, I guess if you're somebody

00:58:56 ◼   ► who's a compulsive book highlighter

00:58:58 ◼   ► who needs different colors

00:58:59 ◼   ► in order to have it mean different things,

00:59:01 ◼   ► I guess it's a nice-to-have feature,

00:59:03 ◼   ► but it seems like a pretty niche feature.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Like, if buttons are a niche feature, what is that?

00:59:09 ◼   ► But, and so then it's comics.

00:59:12 ◼   ► Okay, but comics, most comics are in color.

00:59:14 ◼   ► You wanna read comics in color.

00:59:17 ◼   ► And I know I said on this podcast

00:59:19 ◼   ► that the real test of the Kindle ColorSoft was gonna be,

00:59:24 ◼   ► do they do something like ComiXology guided view

00:59:27 ◼   ► and go panel by panel?

00:59:28 ◼   ► And they do, it's called panel view.

00:59:29 ◼   ► You double tap on a comic

00:59:31 ◼   ► and you can read it panel by panel.

00:59:33 ◼   ► Now, I would argue that panel by panel

00:59:35 ◼   ► is not a great experience for reading a comic,

00:59:38 ◼   ► but it's better than nothing.

00:59:39 ◼   ► I mean, it was invented for phones

00:59:41 ◼   ► 'cause people have their phones

00:59:42 ◼   ► and they wanna read comics.

00:59:43 ◼   ► You'd be better off using an iPad, but you could do it.

00:59:47 ◼   ► I read a few comics on the Kindle ColorSoft panel by panel.

00:59:52 ◼   ► It's fine, although even there,

00:59:55 ◼   ► I did read Watchmen,

00:59:57 ◼   ► which is mostly square or vertical panels,

01:00:01 ◼   ► but lots of comics do vertical panels.

01:00:03 ◼   ► I read the Star Trek comic

01:00:05 ◼   ► that had a lot of horizontal panels.

01:00:07 ◼   ► And Mike, do you know what the Kindle doesn't have?

01:00:10 ◼   ► It doesn't have an accelerometer and auto rotate.

01:00:13 ◼   ► So you get a wide panel,

01:00:16 ◼   ► you can't just turn it on the side

01:00:18 ◼   ► and see it wide on the screen.

01:00:19 ◼   ► It's basically just like turning a book

01:00:21 ◼   ► where nothing happens, right?

01:00:22 ◼   ► Nothing happens.

01:00:23 ◼   ► I mean, you can manually go to settings

01:00:26 ◼   ► and change it to rotate,

01:00:28 ◼   ► but then you go to the next panel and it's vertical

01:00:30 ◼   ► and you're like, "Okay, uh."

01:00:33 ◼   ► And it's all shrunk down and you can't read it.

01:00:35 ◼   ► So it's missing a bunch of things.

01:00:37 ◼   ► Is it doable?

01:00:39 ◼   ► Sure, it's okay.

01:00:41 ◼   ► There are better ways to read comics

01:00:43 ◼   ► than on a Kindle one panel at a time.

01:00:45 ◼   ► And it's too small a screen to read it

01:00:48 ◼   ► the whole page at once.

01:00:49 ◼   ► It's just too small.

01:00:50 ◼   ► So in the end,

01:00:52 ◼   ► I can be impressed by the eating screen

01:00:56 ◼   ► and glad that they built the panel view in

01:00:58 ◼   ► and still say, "I feel like these color e-readers

01:01:02 ◼   ► are trying to sell people on something

01:01:04 ◼   ► that doesn't actually add anything,

01:01:07 ◼   ► which would be fine if it didn't take something away."

01:01:11 ◼   ► But even on the Kindle Colorsoft,

01:01:13 ◼   ► which has, apparently they did like extra tricks

01:01:18 ◼   ► to the lighting and stuff,

01:01:19 ◼   ► because I think Amazon was not impressed

01:01:22 ◼   ► by that e-ink panel that Kobo just slapped

01:01:25 ◼   ► into their Libra color and were done and called it a day.

01:01:30 ◼   ► And as a result, the Kindle lighting is better

01:01:32 ◼   ► and it looks better than the Kobo color.

01:01:35 ◼   ► But it's still not as good as a reader,

01:01:40 ◼   ► as Text on a Page.

01:01:41 ◼   ► And I think fundamentally you buy this thing

01:01:44 ◼   ► for Text on a Page.

01:01:45 ◼   ► If you don't, if you're buying it for pens

01:01:47 ◼   ► and color and stuff, great.

01:01:49 ◼   ► But I would think most people buying an e-reader

01:01:51 ◼   ► really just wanna read books.

01:01:53 ◼   ► And color, again, color is a great idea,

01:01:56 ◼   ► but it can't make the reading experience worse.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Plus it makes it more expensive.

01:02:00 ◼   ► So for me, color e-readers are a mistake for now

01:02:05 ◼   ► and nobody should buy them.

01:02:07 ◼   ► And you should just buy a reasonable black and white e-reader.

01:02:10 ◼   ► And I wish Kobo still made their reasonable

01:02:12 ◼   ► black and white e-reader, but they stopped.

01:02:14 ◼   ► It's still on their site and it just says "sold out."

01:02:17 ◼   ► So it makes me wonder if ultimately they might do

01:02:20 ◼   ► a version three or bring the version two back into,

01:02:24 ◼   ► of the Libra back into production.

01:02:27 ◼   ► But for now I updated my what e-reader

01:02:30 ◼   ► should I buy story to say.

01:02:31 ◼   ► It's the Paperwhite, the latest Paperwhite.

01:02:33 ◼   ► It's good.

01:02:34 ◼   ► Don't buy the cheap Kindle because it doesn't have

01:02:36 ◼   ► a flush screen and it's not waterproof.

01:02:37 ◼   ► And I think that's dumb.

01:02:38 ◼   ► I think you should be able to read your e-book at the pool

01:02:42 ◼   ► or in the bathtub and not worry about your book

01:02:46 ◼   ► being destroyed and shorted out and whatever.

01:02:48 ◼   ► Like forget it, waterproof I think is a much more useful

01:02:52 ◼   ► feature than color at this point.

01:02:54 ◼   ► So it was a journey and the answer to the overarching

01:02:58 ◼   ► question about how I feel about this is,

01:03:00 ◼   ► sort of despairing because I feel like the stuff that

01:03:03 ◼   ► I care about for e-readers, including not just niche things

01:03:07 ◼   ► like buttons, but also things like text on a page

01:03:11 ◼   ► and clarity is like going by the wayside a little bit

01:03:15 ◼   ► as they try to find other features that will goose sales

01:03:18 ◼   ► of this category.

01:03:19 ◼   ► And I accept that this is a weird category.

01:03:22 ◼   ► It's not as big as anybody hoped.

01:03:24 ◼   ► You're building these things in an era where you might

01:03:26 ◼   ► be better off building a smartphone or a tablet

01:03:28 ◼   ► or a computer or whatever but instead you've got

01:03:30 ◼   ► these e-readers.

01:03:31 ◼   ► But like I would love to see some innovation in e-readers.

01:03:35 ◼   ► There's probably a story in this, although I've written

01:03:38 ◼   ► about it before.

01:03:38 ◼   ► Like I would love to see innovation where I can do

01:03:40 ◼   ► something like do RSS feeds or like more content on them

01:03:45 ◼   ► that's text might be interesting.

01:03:51 ◼   ► There are ways you can get content on these things

01:03:53 ◼   ► but it's not very good.

01:03:55 ◼   ► Or innovation in like Amazon, okay, you don't like,

01:03:59 ◼   ► you don't wanna put in a button, I get it.

01:04:01 ◼   ► How about you put in an accelerometer so that not only

01:04:05 ◼   ► can your e-reader auto rotate, especially when you're trying

01:04:08 ◼   ► to read a comic, but if you put an accelerometer in,

01:04:11 ◼   ► you could probably do something like let me double tap

01:04:14 ◼   ► the back of it to change the page.

01:04:16 ◼   ► No, I don't need a button.

01:04:18 ◼   ► I can just double tap on the back and the accelerometer

01:04:21 ◼   ► would go, oh, I got tapped and advance the page.

01:04:24 ◼   ► I love it, let's do it.

01:04:25 ◼   ► But instead I feel like they're going down past

01:04:28 ◼   ► and this is the story of a lot of technology

01:04:31 ◼   ► over the last 30 years, which is sometimes the suppliers

01:04:34 ◼   ► come out with a new product.

01:04:37 ◼   ► E-ink is perfectly reasonable to say, oh man, color,

01:04:40 ◼   ► yeah, check it out.

01:04:41 ◼   ► Look what we did.

01:04:42 ◼   ► It is very impressive that they've made color E-ink displays

01:04:45 ◼   ► but it's incumbent on the company that's building

01:04:49 ◼   ► the product and this is what Apple has always been good at.

01:04:52 ◼   ► To say, what's the use case?

01:04:54 ◼   ► Why does somebody want this?

01:04:56 ◼   ► And in all my days, in the early part of my career

01:04:59 ◼   ► when we were covering Mac versus PC especially,

01:05:02 ◼   ► the PC makers would put whatever was new in their product

01:05:05 ◼   ► and then try to figure out a way to sell it.

01:05:08 ◼   ► And a lot of times it made no sense.

01:05:10 ◼   ► And Apple would be like, no, we're not gonna do that.

01:05:13 ◼   ► Until we can find a way to make this story make sense,

01:05:17 ◼   ► we're not gonna put it in our product.

01:05:18 ◼   ► And a bunch of the color E-ink, color E-readers feels

01:05:22 ◼   ► so much like that, which is, well, they gave us

01:05:25 ◼   ► a color screen so I guess we'll make a color E-reader

01:05:28 ◼   ► with it.

01:05:29 ◼   ► It's like, that's fine, but why?

01:05:32 ◼   ► Like who wants it?

01:05:35 ◼   ► Who wants it other than, but it's in color.

01:05:37 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, but why?

01:05:38 ◼   ► So I don't know.

01:05:40 ◼   ► I wish more people liked this category.

01:05:42 ◼   ► I wish the products in it were better.

01:05:44 ◼   ► I wish Kobo made a better version of the black

01:05:47 ◼   ► and white Libra.

01:05:48 ◼   ► I expect that in the next few years,

01:05:51 ◼   ► this will get resolved because the color screens

01:05:53 ◼   ► from E-ink will get better and they won't degrade

01:05:56 ◼   ► the reading experience.

01:05:58 ◼   ► But for now, and also people don't buy,

01:06:01 ◼   ► you buy a Kindle every eight years or 10 years

01:06:04 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:06:04 ◼   ► Really, you could just go on forever.

01:06:06 ◼   ► So like, if you need one, they're good, they're bright,

01:06:11 ◼   ► they're waterproof, the Paperwhite is.

01:06:14 ◼   ► Like, it's there.

01:06:17 ◼   ► One of the sad footnotes of this is that as a part

01:06:20 ◼   ► of this review, I spent some time reading

01:06:21 ◼   ► on the Kindle Oasis, which was Amazon's now just

01:06:25 ◼   ► discontinued high-end e-reader that has buttons on it.

01:06:29 ◼   ► That's the best e-reader I own.

01:06:33 ◼   ► It's great.

01:06:34 ◼   ► The only problem is that it's got a micro USB port on it

01:06:36 ◼   ► instead of USB-C, but it's great.

01:06:38 ◼   ► It's black and white, it's got buttons,

01:06:40 ◼   ► it's got a really bright sidelight display

01:06:43 ◼   ► and a clear display, 300 DPI display.

01:06:46 ◼   ► It's a great e-reader, but they don't make it anymore.

01:06:51 ◼   ► My two favorite e-readers, they don't make them anymore

01:06:53 ◼   ► 'cause they're off gallivanting around

01:06:56 ◼   ► with color displays and, eh.

01:06:59 ◼   ► Anyway, so I try not to be grumpy about it.

01:07:02 ◼   ► I'm trying to understand why they're doing it.

01:07:04 ◼   ► I think that they're trying to find more markets

01:07:07 ◼   ► for this product category and I get it.

01:07:08 ◼   ► It's not a big category, but what they're trying right now

01:07:11 ◼   ► for me, I think goes against the whole purpose

01:07:14 ◼   ► of the category.

01:07:15 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

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01:09:29 ◼   ► of this show and Relay.

01:09:30 ◼   ► So there's been some,

01:09:34 ◼   ► I guess we got a bunch of updates about Vision Pro stuff

01:09:36 ◼   ► that we do over the last couple of weeks.

01:09:38 ◼   ► So this week there was another piece of immersive content.

01:09:42 ◼   ► This was a music video from The Weeknd.

01:09:45 ◼   ► I think it's called Love Hurts.

01:09:47 ◼   ► Is the, Open Hearts, man, that was in the same area

01:09:51 ◼   ► but completely wrong.

01:09:52 ◼   ► It's called Open Hearts.

01:09:54 ◼   ► - I love that Apple calls it an immersive music experience.

01:09:57 ◼   ► It's a music video.

01:09:58 ◼   ► - It's a music video.

01:09:59 ◼   ► - It's a music video.

01:10:00 ◼   ► - And it feels like a music video.

01:10:01 ◼   ► - It is, it's a music video.

01:10:03 ◼   ► It's a classic, I would say classic style music video

01:10:06 ◼   ► like me growing up watching MTV.

01:10:07 ◼   ► It gave me kind of like thriller vibes at times

01:10:12 ◼   ► where it was like, oh yeah,

01:10:13 ◼   ► we spent a lot of money on a music video.

01:10:16 ◼   ► That's what it is.

01:10:17 ◼   ► - I think what this shows, I think more than anything,

01:10:21 ◼   ► is that special effects, good special effects

01:10:26 ◼   ► can have quite an impact,

01:10:27 ◼   ► to be very impactful in immersive videos.

01:10:30 ◼   ► So there are like a couple of moments

01:10:32 ◼   ► where they really play around with your perspective

01:10:35 ◼   ► and stuff like that and it's very interesting.

01:10:37 ◼   ► I had the exact same reaction that you did,

01:10:39 ◼   ► which is everything Apple has shown us up to now

01:10:42 ◼   ► in immersive has at least seemed real.

01:10:46 ◼   ► I know that that submerged movie has VFX in it, right?

01:10:50 ◼   ► Shout out to our friend Todd Vizzeri,

01:10:52 ◼   ► but it's meant to be naturalistic.

01:10:54 ◼   ► This is a surreal experience.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Like you're flying and going through like portals

01:11:03 ◼   ► and like it's not, you see a bunch of stuff

01:11:05 ◼   ► that can't be real, right?

01:11:10 ◼   ► So you know you're watching special effects.

01:11:12 ◼   ► They look great.

01:11:13 ◼   ► They really do.

01:11:14 ◼   ► I'm very impressed with them.

01:11:16 ◼   ► But what it does is it says very clearly,

01:11:19 ◼   ► this is what an immersive VFX show can look like.

01:11:24 ◼   ► And I liked seeing that.

01:11:26 ◼   ► And there are a few moments where I need to watch it again,

01:11:29 ◼   ► 'cause one of the things I really like about it

01:11:31 ◼   ► is a lot of immersive stuff,

01:11:34 ◼   ► when we were talking about the what if animation,

01:11:37 ◼   ► one of the fun things about the what if stuff is,

01:11:40 ◼   ► if you notice, if you look to the little sides,

01:11:43 ◼   ► you can see like there's little Easter eggs here.

01:11:46 ◼   ► And there's some of that in this where like,

01:11:47 ◼   ► if you look out the window,

01:11:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that. - At various points,

01:11:50 ◼   ► like yeah, upfront is one thing

01:11:53 ◼   ► and out the window is a completely other thing.

01:11:55 ◼   ► And that's really interesting, right?

01:11:57 ◼   ► Like they're playing up the fact

01:11:58 ◼   ► that you're in this very weird scenario

01:12:03 ◼   ► and it's surreal.

01:12:04 ◼   ► And I liked that a lot.

01:12:06 ◼   ► I thought that was, yeah, it definitely felt to me like,

01:12:09 ◼   ► it's not a movie, it's not even much of a narrative.

01:12:14 ◼   ► - No, I have no idea what's going on in this video.

01:12:17 ◼   ► I have no idea what the point of it is.

01:12:19 ◼   ► - He's in an ambulance, but also like a flying machine.

01:12:25 ◼   ► And then he, I guess, spoiler alert for a thing

01:12:28 ◼   ► that doesn't need spoilers because it doesn't make any sense

01:12:31 ◼   ► but I guess he dies at the end or doesn't.

01:12:34 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:12:35 ◼   ► It doesn't, well, over the end credits,

01:12:37 ◼   ► there's like a flatline sound,

01:12:39 ◼   ► like he died in the ambulance or something.

01:12:41 ◼   ► Anyway, it doesn't matter, it's ridiculous.

01:12:43 ◼   ► But it's visually very interesting.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And I liked, I mean, the song is fun.

01:12:47 ◼   ► The Weekend is a charismatic performer.

01:12:49 ◼   ► - He was a good pick for this

01:12:50 ◼   ► 'cause he is very creative, right?

01:12:52 ◼   ► And so like, I think that it fits that.

01:12:56 ◼   ► And The Weekend's music is, I like his music.

01:12:59 ◼   ► And so like, you know, - I like his music too.

01:13:00 ◼   ► - You can sit and like,

01:13:01 ◼   ► this is a song I never heard before.

01:13:03 ◼   ► And I'm like, I'm gonna enjoy it

01:13:04 ◼   ► because I know I like his style of music

01:13:05 ◼   ► and it's fun to watch. - Yeah, exactly.

01:13:08 ◼   ► - He is like, you know, love him or hate him.

01:13:10 ◼   ► He's like one of these artiste kind of performers.

01:13:13 ◼   ► And so I think, you know, it makes sense to throw something

01:13:17 ◼   ► like a project like this at him.

01:13:20 ◼   ► Like in that he will go all in on that.

01:13:22 ◼   ► And so, yeah, this is interesting.

01:13:26 ◼   ► Like I would say, for me though,

01:13:28 ◼   ► I want more stuff like Submerged and I want this, right?

01:13:31 ◼   ► Like I don't want a bunch of music videos, right?

01:13:34 ◼   ► Like I do want more engaging narratives,

01:13:39 ◼   ► but this was to me just an interesting idea of like,

01:13:42 ◼   ► oh, here's a completely different style of content.

01:13:45 ◼   ► And it also really works, so.

01:13:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, an experiment lets them try some things

01:13:51 ◼   ► that may not have been tried yet in immersive

01:13:54 ◼   ► because it doesn't matter 'cause it's a music video

01:13:57 ◼   ► and they just are throwing visuals at the wall.

01:13:59 ◼   ► And I think that's fine.

01:14:01 ◼   ► When you talk about music,

01:14:02 ◼   ► I know they've got that concert that's coming up.

01:14:05 ◼   ► And that is more in the context of what I would like to see.

01:14:08 ◼   ► I wanna see some live concert performances

01:14:11 ◼   ► and I suppose some more Alicia Keys style performances

01:14:14 ◼   ► as well, like I'm really interested to see about

01:14:17 ◼   ► on the music side, what are the different options here?

01:14:20 ◼   ► And I know that they've got this concert for one series

01:14:22 ◼   ► that they're starting.

01:14:24 ◼   ► And that concert for one makes it sound

01:14:27 ◼   ► very Alicia Keys-like.

01:14:29 ◼   ► - I think this is focused on the Alicia Keys thing.

01:14:31 ◼   ► So the first one is of a musician called Ray.

01:14:34 ◼   ► And this is coming soon, however.

01:14:36 ◼   ► So I asked contact at Apple about, is this a series?

01:14:40 ◼   ► Or is this just a one-off?

01:14:41 ◼   ► And they confirmed to me that it's a series

01:14:42 ◼   ► and also that you can actually go and watch this

01:14:45 ◼   ► in UK Apple stores now, even though it's not available yet.

01:14:48 ◼   ► 'Cause she's a British artist, right?

01:14:50 ◼   ► And with this new series, Concert for One,

01:14:54 ◼   ► there will also be an accompanying spatial audio EP

01:14:57 ◼   ► on Apple Music.

01:14:58 ◼   ► So this reminds me of like, they did this in the past.

01:15:02 ◼   ► It wasn't called like Made for iTunes,

01:15:04 ◼   ► but they used to bring artists in and create EPs, right?

01:15:07 ◼   ► Like there were iTunes EPs.

01:15:08 ◼   ► So maybe it feels a little bit like that.

01:15:10 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I think that this one is going to be very much

01:15:14 ◼   ► in the vein of the Alicia Keys thing.

01:15:17 ◼   ► I don't know, I didn't see, I have maybe of everyone I know,

01:15:20 ◼   ► I reacted very negatively to the Alicia Keys portion

01:15:23 ◼   ► of the immersive video stuff.

01:15:25 ◼   ► I found it really awkward to have someone singing at me.

01:15:29 ◼   ► - Yes.

01:15:29 ◼   ► - I wonder what this is gonna be like.

01:15:31 ◼   ► I would like to see concert-like performances,

01:15:34 ◼   ► but I don't want to be making eye contact

01:15:37 ◼   ► with the musician for the whole time.

01:15:39 ◼   ► - I know, I know.

01:15:41 ◼   ► We should say Apple is apparently also letting people,

01:15:45 ◼   ► like if you're a fan of The Weeknd

01:15:47 ◼   ► or you wanna see this thing,

01:15:48 ◼   ► and this is a smart way to market this,

01:15:50 ◼   ► you can go into an Apple store apparently and say,

01:15:53 ◼   ► "I would like to watch The Weeknd's music video

01:15:56 ◼   ► on the Vision Pro," and you can do that.

01:15:58 ◼   ► They'll let you do that.

01:15:59 ◼   ► So they're using content to drive people to try Vision Pro.

01:16:04 ◼   ► I think that's very smart.

01:16:06 ◼   ► - That makes sense because otherwise

01:16:08 ◼   ► there's not really a lot of point

01:16:09 ◼   ► signing up these big names, right?

01:16:11 ◼   ► Because essentially you want The Weeknd

01:16:13 ◼   ► to be promoting this,

01:16:14 ◼   ► but there's no point in The Weeknd promoting this

01:16:17 ◼   ► if only then the people that can watch it

01:16:19 ◼   ► are people that already own a Vision Pro.

01:16:20 ◼   ► - Right, and it gets them in the Apple store

01:16:22 ◼   ► and there's a long game aspect of it,

01:16:24 ◼   ► but they get to try it and maybe rave about,

01:16:26 ◼   ► "Oh, so it was amazing and it's all good.

01:16:29 ◼   ► It's all to the better for Apple," I think.

01:16:31 ◼   ► - Also, they announced along with The Weeknd thing

01:16:34 ◼   ► and the concept of one that they have new episodes

01:16:36 ◼   ► in two of their series, Adventure and Wildlife in 2024,

01:16:39 ◼   ► and there's more stuff coming in 2025.

01:16:41 ◼   ► I know that this has been a point

01:16:43 ◼   ► maybe made too often at this point,

01:16:45 ◼   ► but the thing about the slow rollout of this content

01:16:49 ◼   ► is I think it's putting too much pressure

01:16:51 ◼   ► on each piece of individual content.

01:16:52 ◼   ► If I wait a month and I'm not in,

01:16:57 ◼   ► I haven't particularly been taken

01:16:59 ◼   ► by the wildlife series that they've been doing.

01:17:02 ◼   ► I've watched some of it, but I haven't really,

01:17:05 ◼   ► it's just not necessarily the stuff that I want.

01:17:07 ◼   ► I don't know why, I just haven't.

01:17:09 ◼   ► But then it's like,

01:17:10 ◼   ► "Oh, there's a wildlife episode this week."

01:17:12 ◼   ► It's like, well, if there was lots of stuff,

01:17:14 ◼   ► then I could pick a choose, where at the moment,

01:17:16 ◼   ► I feel like I'm forcing myself to watch some of this content

01:17:20 ◼   ► because it's the only stuff available.

01:17:22 ◼   ► - It's like, "Okay, Mike, you gotta watch the rhinos now."

01:17:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's like, "I don't really want to."

01:17:26 ◼   ► I like nature documentaries.

01:17:27 ◼   ► I don't know why. - I love that stuff.

01:17:28 ◼   ► - They just haven't,

01:17:30 ◼   ► maybe I gotta give them another go,

01:17:32 ◼   ► but those ones, they haven't really grabbed me.

01:17:35 ◼   ► I've liked the adventure stuff more.

01:17:37 ◼   ► Yeah, but my point here is it just puts a lot of pressure

01:17:42 ◼   ► on the content.

01:17:43 ◼   ► - I know, 'cause there's not that much of it.

01:17:45 ◼   ► And so you, yeah, I get that.

01:17:47 ◼   ► I've really liked the wildlife stuff

01:17:48 ◼   ► as somebody who's never been to Africa to see Africa

01:17:51 ◼   ► and see rhinos or elephants.

01:17:54 ◼   ► It's kind of amazing and feels more immersive

01:17:58 ◼   ► as a travelogue, and so I kinda liked that about it.

01:18:01 ◼   ► But you're right, all of this stuff

01:18:02 ◼   ► has way more pressure put on it

01:18:03 ◼   ► because there's this slow drip of content.

01:18:08 ◼   ► But I will say this, at least there's a drip of content now.

01:18:10 ◼   ► It feels like they are now getting this stuff out there

01:18:14 ◼   ► at a pace where they weren't the first six months

01:18:16 ◼   ► that the Vision Pro was out.

01:18:19 ◼   ► - You know what I realize now?

01:18:20 ◼   ► I'm not talking about the wildlife.

01:18:23 ◼   ► I'm talking about the dinosaur one.

01:18:25 ◼   ► - Oh, I don't like the dinosaur one at all.

01:18:26 ◼   ► - The dinosaur one made me feel motion sick.

01:18:28 ◼   ► So I should go watch the wildlife stuff.

01:18:30 ◼   ► I don't think I've watched enough of that.

01:18:32 ◼   ► I'm thinking of the dinosaur. - Watch the rhinos

01:18:33 ◼   ► and the elephants, they're amazing.

01:18:34 ◼   ► Don't watch fake, I mean, they're not fake animals,

01:18:36 ◼   ► but they're CGI. - It was just,

01:18:37 ◼   ► I didn't like, the opening shots of the dinosaur one,

01:18:40 ◼   ► you're kind of like moving like overhead.

01:18:42 ◼   ► And it made me feel motion sick.

01:18:43 ◼   ► And I've never felt motion sick from VR before.

01:18:46 ◼   ► And that made me feel. - I don't like the dinosaur.

01:18:47 ◼   ► Those are my least, the dinosaurs are my least favorite

01:18:49 ◼   ► of all of the ones that they've done.

01:18:51 ◼   ► - Then I'm gonna watch some of the wildlife stuff.

01:18:54 ◼   ► Just some tangential stuff, but I thought it was funny.

01:18:56 ◼   ► I thought you'd like it.

01:18:57 ◼   ► I sent you some screenshots today.

01:18:58 ◼   ► BBC, British broadcast. - BBC Channel 4.

01:19:02 ◼   ► BBC Channel 4, as we call it in America.

01:19:05 ◼   ► - Who are the proprietors of Taskmaster,

01:19:09 ◼   ► I guess I'll say, they're like the home

01:19:11 ◼   ► of Taskmaster in the UK.

01:19:13 ◼   ► - They are the UK home of Taskmaster, yes.

01:19:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, they have--

01:19:18 ◼   ► - One of my favorite TV shows, yeah.

01:19:19 ◼   ► - Exactly, they have made a Vision Pro app, Channel 4,

01:19:23 ◼   ► and with it, a Taskmaster environment

01:19:26 ◼   ► in which you can watch shows, which is like a fun thing,

01:19:31 ◼   ► but they have, I think, committed a cardinal sin

01:19:34 ◼   ► of environments.

01:19:35 ◼   ► So when you're in the environment,

01:19:38 ◼   ► you are sitting in the chair of the host

01:19:40 ◼   ► of the TV show, Greg, right?

01:19:43 ◼   ► But the way they have set it up,

01:19:47 ◼   ► if you're sitting in his chair,

01:19:49 ◼   ► you are not dead center with the screen

01:19:52 ◼   ► that they're showing content to you on.

01:19:54 ◼   ► So to watch the content, you're kind of off center,

01:19:57 ◼   ► which is, that's not great.

01:19:58 ◼   ► So really, they've created a fun environment,

01:20:00 ◼   ► but it's not one that you should be watching content in,

01:20:02 ◼   ► which is not the way that, say, Disney have done it,

01:20:05 ◼   ► where they're fun, but they're also really good experiences

01:20:08 ◼   ► for watching content,

01:20:09 ◼   ► plus the screen is too far away from you.

01:20:10 ◼   ► It's a fun thing, but not a great use of this technology.

01:20:14 ◼   ► - Here's totally what they did.

01:20:15 ◼   ► There's a Taskmaster VR game for Quest,

01:20:19 ◼   ► and my guess is that the environment is a render

01:20:23 ◼   ► of the space from the VR game.

01:20:26 ◼   ► That's my guess.

01:20:26 ◼   ► - It's also not very high quality

01:20:28 ◼   ► compared to some of the others I've seen.

01:20:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it is, yeah.

01:20:32 ◼   ► It's like a CD-ROM game a little bit.

01:20:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really got that vibe to it.

01:20:38 ◼   ► There's not a lot of, like, there's lighting,

01:20:40 ◼   ► but none of it is great.

01:20:42 ◼   ► But yeah, look, it's a fun thing to do,

01:20:44 ◼   ► and it's also a fun thing to get some headlines,

01:20:45 ◼   ► which is part of the reason I'm sure they did it,

01:20:47 ◼   ► because they want people to know they got this thing.

01:20:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, and they went to the trouble

01:20:51 ◼   ► of doing a Vision Pro app,

01:20:53 ◼   ► and Apple did them a solid by saying,

01:20:57 ◼   ► can we make a, let's work with you to make an environment?

01:21:00 ◼   ► And they're like, we've got this VR thing,

01:21:02 ◼   ► and so they made the Taskmaster environment.

01:21:05 ◼   ► - You received two Vision Pro accessories from Belkin,

01:21:09 ◼   ► some new stuff, a travel bag and a new head strap.

01:21:12 ◼   ► - I did, I did.

01:21:13 ◼   ► New Vision Pro accessories that feel very much like

01:21:17 ◼   ► they're the Vision Pro accessories Apple

01:21:19 ◼   ► should have shipped with when they shipped the Vision Pro,

01:21:23 ◼   ► but they didn't.

01:21:24 ◼   ► So the head strap works with the knit band, right?

01:21:29 ◼   ► - The one that goes around the back of your head.

01:21:33 ◼   ► - The solo band.

01:21:35 ◼   ► And I was using the solo top where there was a second band

01:21:38 ◼   ► on top, but this is a, it's thicker than the basic strap,

01:21:43 ◼   ► and it's got a Velcro attached.

01:21:48 ◼   ► And basically you take the two plastic pieces

01:21:50 ◼   ► and put them on the band that's coming back

01:21:54 ◼   ► from the Vision Pro that's got the speakers on it.

01:21:57 ◼   ► And then you put, and then this band runs over your head

01:22:00 ◼   ► and you can adjust it with the Velcro,

01:22:02 ◼   ► and then you still use the knit band.

01:22:05 ◼   ► This is the setup that we had when we got our first preview

01:22:09 ◼   ► of this in June of last year.

01:22:11 ◼   ► And yet Apple didn't ship it.

01:22:12 ◼   ► They shipped the two thin bands or the knit band by itself.

01:22:17 ◼   ► And it's way better.

01:22:19 ◼   ► This is how it should have been shipped.

01:22:20 ◼   ► I don't know, I mean, I guess the reason Apple

01:22:23 ◼   ► didn't sell this product themselves

01:22:25 ◼   ► is because they would have to admit

01:22:26 ◼   ► that it's the right configuration.

01:22:29 ◼   ► And instead everybody's gonna have to pay $50

01:22:31 ◼   ► if they want this configuration.

01:22:32 ◼   ► But I can endorse it.

01:22:33 ◼   ► I think it's really comfortable.

01:22:35 ◼   ► I think they did a really good job.

01:22:36 ◼   ► There are some other products that do similar things,

01:22:38 ◼   ► but it's solid, it's solid.

01:22:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I have a Spigen one, which is nice,

01:22:42 ◼   ► but I can't get it to go as tight as I would want.

01:22:45 ◼   ► And this one looks like it is basically

01:22:47 ◼   ► infinitely adjustable.

01:22:48 ◼   ► So I have ordered yet another strap for the Vision Pro.

01:22:52 ◼   ► - Amazing.

01:22:53 ◼   ► - I strapped like four at this point.

01:22:54 ◼   ► - I know, I know, same, but it's a good one.

01:22:57 ◼   ► I think they did a good job with it.

01:22:59 ◼   ► And it's very clear this is Apple going to a partner.

01:23:04 ◼   ► In fact, Mark Gurman wrote a thing this week about it

01:23:07 ◼   ► where he basically said, "Look, Apple can't do this."

01:23:11 ◼   ► But they went to their partner and said, "Please do this."

01:23:13 ◼   ► - I don't know why people said it.

01:23:14 ◼   ► Why can't Apple do this?

01:23:15 ◼   ► Apple can do this.

01:23:17 ◼   ► - I think maybe it would be a little embarrassing.

01:23:20 ◼   ► I mean, I agree.

01:23:21 ◼   ► - Apple shipped two straps in the thing.

01:23:24 ◼   ► They can have a third, that's the combo between the two.

01:23:27 ◼   ► They could do this if they want to, they just don't want to.

01:23:29 ◼   ► - More than that, my theory is that they will,

01:23:32 ◼   ► if they do a revised Vision Pro next year,

01:23:35 ◼   ► that this will be what it'll have.

01:23:37 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:23:38 ◼   ► - I think this is it.

01:23:39 ◼   ► - Because we know that they thought it was a good idea

01:23:42 ◼   ► because this is what we used in the original demos.

01:23:44 ◼   ► And some of the original shots had a version.

01:23:47 ◼   ► I mean, it wasn't this exact one, but it looked like this.

01:23:50 ◼   ► - Again, I don't know behind the scenes,

01:23:52 ◼   ► but so much of the Vision Pro detail

01:23:54 ◼   ► does seem to be driven by designers

01:23:56 ◼   ► who have this fantasy of how people use technology.

01:23:59 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:24:00 ◼   ► - And the knit strap, which is very beautiful,

01:24:05 ◼   ► obviously very expensive to make.

01:24:06 ◼   ► - And super comfortable and easy to adjust

01:24:08 ◼   ► and all that sort of thing. - And it is great.

01:24:10 ◼   ► So here's the thing is, my theory is that they're like,

01:24:13 ◼   ► "Okay, we want to put this with the strap on top."

01:24:15 ◼   ► And the designers are like, "Oh no,

01:24:17 ◼   ► that will ruin the entire experience of it."

01:24:20 ◼   ► It's like, okay, fine.

01:24:21 ◼   ► But it would be better.

01:24:23 ◼   ► It would actually be nicer if you had that strap up there.

01:24:27 ◼   ► And so they ship it with two straps,

01:24:29 ◼   ► the nice one that doesn't fit

01:24:30 ◼   ► and the ones that aren't as nice.

01:24:32 ◼   ► - Yep. - Come on.

01:24:33 ◼   ► Like it's baffling.

01:24:35 ◼   ► Anyway, it is $50 for a couple of pieces of plastic

01:24:38 ◼   ► and a strap.

01:24:39 ◼   ► Yeah, I know, I know.

01:24:40 ◼   ► I'm just resigned to the fact

01:24:41 ◼   ► that every Vision Pro accessory is gonna be expensive.

01:24:44 ◼   ► How many could they even ever possibly sell?

01:24:47 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, this is the thing, right?

01:24:48 ◼   ► Like every, the volumes must be so low

01:24:51 ◼   ► that every single Vision Pro accessory

01:24:54 ◼   ► has to be a high margin good, like it has to be,

01:24:57 ◼   ► 'cause they're never gonna make any money on it.

01:24:58 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

01:25:00 ◼   ► But there's also a carrying case for the Vision Pro.

01:25:05 ◼   ► And it's really good.

01:25:07 ◼   ► It's so good.

01:25:08 ◼   ► So I've been using the $20 basically MediQuest case

01:25:12 ◼   ► that Casey Liss suggested.

01:25:15 ◼   ► And it's, I mean, it's just bad.

01:25:17 ◼   ► It did the job of being a container for the Vision Pro,

01:25:21 ◼   ► but like it's just this one layer of material

01:25:24 ◼   ► and it's not very good.

01:25:25 ◼   ► This Belkin bag is so good.

01:25:27 ◼   ► It's like half the price of Apple's Marshmallow.

01:25:30 ◼   ► And it's also smaller.

01:25:33 ◼   ► It's made to fit the Vision Pro, so it fits it perfectly.

01:25:36 ◼   ► It's got a little thing that you flip up

01:25:37 ◼   ► after you put it in there to cover the eye part,

01:25:40 ◼   ► the lenses, so that they don't get messed up.

01:25:43 ◼   ► It's got a little battery spot

01:25:46 ◼   ► that you put the battery in and flip it down

01:25:48 ◼   ► so it stays attached.

01:25:49 ◼   ► And if you put the battery the right way in,

01:25:52 ◼   ► the USB charge port on the battery is accessible.

01:25:57 ◼   ► So you can zip the case mostly up.

01:25:59 ◼   ► You can have it all in there and still plug it in

01:26:01 ◼   ► and charge it up when you're not using it

01:26:03 ◼   ► and then unplug it.

01:26:04 ◼   ► And it's so much smaller than the Apple case.

01:26:07 ◼   ► It's a perfect fit.

01:26:08 ◼   ► It's got an optional shoulder strap

01:26:11 ◼   ► and a regular carrying handle.

01:26:14 ◼   ► And it's got a zipper pocket in the front

01:26:17 ◼   ► for some probably pretty thin things

01:26:19 ◼   ► that you could put in there

01:26:20 ◼   ► and a non-zip pocket in the back where you can put stuff.

01:26:23 ◼   ► It's just a nice little case.

01:26:25 ◼   ► They did a good job.

01:26:26 ◼   ► Again, it's like a hundred bucks or something.

01:26:29 ◼   ► It's not cheap, but I look at it and I think,

01:26:33 ◼   ► "Why did Apple not make this?"

01:26:35 ◼   ► And my only answer is because the same designers

01:26:38 ◼   ► who thought that the knit strap by itself

01:26:41 ◼   ► was the most elegant and that you couldn't muddy it up

01:26:43 ◼   ► with that strap that goes over the top with the Velcro,

01:26:47 ◼   ► oh, who does Velcro anyway,

01:26:49 ◼   ► also designed this case.

01:26:50 ◼   ► They're like, "Oh, but it's so big and puffy

01:26:53 ◼   ► and it's so beautiful."

01:26:54 ◼   ► And clearly those people were in the design driver's seat

01:26:58 ◼   ► for initial Vision Pro.

01:27:00 ◼   ► And the number one thing that I'm looking forward to

01:27:02 ◼   ► in another Vision Pro iteration

01:27:04 ◼   ► is maybe all of that stuff starting to get cleared away.

01:27:08 ◼   ► It might take multiple years for that.

01:27:11 ◼   ► But again, this is such a practical case for the Vision Pro.

01:27:17 ◼   ► And the Apple case is so impractical.

01:27:20 ◼   ► So anyway, I think both of these accessories are great.

01:27:23 ◼   ► I don't know how many people are gonna buy them

01:27:24 ◼   ► 'cause you gotta have a Vision Pro

01:27:25 ◼   ► and you gotta have the stomach to spend the money.

01:27:27 ◼   ► But I will tell you, I think they're both really good.

01:27:30 ◼   ► Thumbs up to Belkin.

01:27:31 ◼   ► I guess thumbs up to whoever at Apple

01:27:33 ◼   ► whispered at Belkin about this, but yeah, they're good.

01:27:35 ◼   ► It's a much better scenario all along.

01:27:38 ◼   ► And I'm looking forward to traveling

01:27:40 ◼   ► with that strap and with that bag.

01:27:43 ◼   ► - I had already ordered the strap

01:27:44 ◼   ► and that's not coming until the end of November for me.

01:27:46 ◼   ► I don't know why it's pretty back ordered.

01:27:49 ◼   ► But the bag I hadn't ordered and I just ordered the bag.

01:27:52 ◼   ► And that will be here on Wednesday.

01:27:53 ◼   ► So this might mean that I might actually take

01:27:55 ◼   ► my Vision Pro on my next vacation,

01:27:57 ◼   ► which is coming up in a couple of weeks.

01:27:58 ◼   ► I might take it with me.

01:27:59 ◼   ► I might be the guy on the plane, Jason.

01:28:01 ◼   ► I might do it.

01:28:02 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah.

01:28:04 ◼   ► Well, I'm excited about it, not just for all of this,

01:28:08 ◼   ► which I'm absolutely gonna travel with this thing too

01:28:10 ◼   ► and I'm looking forward to it.

01:28:12 ◼   ► But the other reason is the thing