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Cortex

166: The Social Network

 

00:00:00   Social Network. The 2010 American biographical drama about the beginning of Facebook. This movie was directed by David Fincher, written by Aaron Sorkin, and stars, I would say, maybe infamously at this point, Jesse Eisenberg, Andrew Garfield, Justin Timberlake, and more.

00:00:19   Yeah, I feel like this is Eisenberg's iconic role. I hadn't seen the movie before then, but every time I see Jesse Eisenberg, it's like, oh, even I know.

00:00:27   It's like, oh, he's the guy in the Social Network playing Zuckerberg.

00:00:30   It's one of the great all-time castings, I think, and obviously we're talking about the movie, but I will jump all the way ahead in my notes at this point.

00:00:37   Oh, okay.

00:00:38   What I wonder is, do people think of Mark Zuckerberg's personality because of the way Jesse Eisenberg portrayed him, or was Mark Zuckerberg always like that?

00:00:51   Like, I think people are very aware of the portrayal of him in this movie, and I think it has led to part of the way in which people describe Mark Zuckerberg as, like, this robot.

00:01:04   Oh, my God.

00:01:04   I think it's one of those cycle things where, like, he was maybe like that, and that's why the portrayal is that way, but, like, the role is so well done, and Eisenberg does such a good job, that it's basically like, oh, yeah, that's just Mark Zuckerberg.

00:01:18   You didn't even finish the intro, and it's like, all right, get right to the beating heart of, like, everything that this movie is about.

00:01:26   That question lines up with something interesting, which is a very line from the end of the movie where a character tells him, like, you're not an a**hole, you're just really trying to be one, which does feel like maybe in real life became quite a meta thing.

00:01:41   I feel like you have gotten, like, straight to the core of the movie before we have even begun.

00:01:44   It's all about Jesse Eisenberg and this portrayal of Mark Zuckerberg.

00:01:48   We'll put a pin in that.

00:01:51   We'll come back to it later.

00:01:52   You had said on the last episode you have avoided this movie.

00:01:55   Yeah, I had never seen it, and it's one of those movies where I just felt like it's a combination of two things.

00:02:03   I felt like I didn't have any interest in seeing it, and also because the movie is quite iconic, right?

00:02:12   It's a movie like The Godfather, right?

00:02:14   Even if you have never seen The Godfather, like, you know things about The Godfather.

00:02:17   Yeah.

00:02:18   And so, like, the social network is in that same category.

00:02:21   I've never seen it, but it's impossible not to know about it.

00:02:24   And even just the little bit that I had seen from scenes always gave me the impression of, like, I don't think this is a movie for me.

00:02:32   Like, I can see why it's popular, and I can see why people recommend it.

00:02:36   But I just, I had very strongly the feeling of, like, I don't think this is a movie that I would enjoy.

00:02:41   It wasn't even just that I hadn't seen it, I had been avoiding it.

00:02:44   And then, on top of that, it's like, oh, never loved Facebook anyway.

00:02:49   I was never a big Facebook user, and so I didn't have any interest on that side.

00:02:54   So, all of that is partly why, like, in the past, whenever, since it came out, I never got around to actually watching it.

00:03:00   But I did watch it last night for Cortex Movie Club.

00:03:03   Before I ask you the obvious question, I will just say, Aaron Sorkin, who wrote the screenplay.

00:03:09   So, this is based on a book.

00:03:10   Oh, I didn't know that.

00:03:11   It's based on a book.

00:03:12   There was a book proposal by Ben Mesrick, and the book's called The Accidental Billionaires.

00:03:17   However, while this book was being written, the movie rights were already being optioned.

00:03:22   Sony picked it up.

00:03:24   They offered it to Aaron Sorkin.

00:03:25   They told him, like, what the book was about, which was basically following the two court cases that were occurring.

00:03:32   Sorkin was like, I want to write that.

00:03:34   And so, he wrote his own movie.

00:03:36   He didn't write the movie based on the book.

00:03:38   It was like the premise of the book became a movie.

00:03:42   Oh.

00:03:43   Okay.

00:03:44   And they actually came out around the same time.

00:03:45   I feel like that's the story of the, like, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

00:03:48   I think Douglas Adams was both writing the radio version and the book at the same time, and they came out around the same time.

00:03:55   But this one's even stranger to me.

00:03:56   So, it's like, okay, so this is not based on a book.

00:03:59   This is based on Aaron Sorkin heard about the idea of a book, and the rights were purchased, and then wrote a movie, but the book itself wasn't actually finished.

00:04:08   And so, that's how this movie came into existence.

00:04:10   Yeah.

00:04:11   And so, Aaron Sorkin, like you, has said, like, because I've been watching some interviews with him about the movie, and he said he never used Facebook, never wanted to use Facebook, had no interest in Facebook, but found the story interesting.

00:04:25   Hmm.

00:04:25   So, did you like this movie?

00:04:27   Okay.

00:04:29   So, let's talk about the opening scene of this movie.

00:04:32   The movie opens, and it's Mark Zuckerberg, and he's sitting down with his girlfriend, and they're just, like, having a conversation.

00:04:40   It's this very, like, fast, back-and-forth dialogue, where they're talking to each other, but Zuckerberg is, like, thinking about three things at once, and so he's sort of having three conversations in parallel, like, with his girlfriend.

00:04:52   And over the course of the scene, the girlfriend breaks up with him.

00:04:57   And, again, the movie, like, both starts and ends with commenting on Zuckerberg being an a**hole, where she breaks up with him in, like, the meanest possible way, but perhaps also in, like, quite direct way, by saying, like, oh, you think girls will hate you because you're a nerd, but girls will hate you because you're an a**hole.

00:05:15   It, like, storms off.

00:05:16   It's, like, that dialogue is very clever.

00:05:19   It's well-acted, like, on both of the actors' parts.

00:05:22   Like, that must be very hard to do in person, like, do this thing back and forth.

00:05:26   That scene played out, and I got to the end of that scene, and I thought, I am going to f***ing hate this movie, and boy, was I right.

00:05:34   I hated everything about this movie.

00:05:38   I just cannot stand it.

00:05:42   It's, like, I can give credit to this kind of dialogue style, but I find it intolerable.

00:05:50   It's, like, a kind of modern Shakespeare that it just really, really irks me.

00:05:56   Why is this funny, Mike?

00:05:57   There's something so funny to me, like, oh, this is the worst.

00:06:03   It's modern Shakespeare.

00:06:05   Who wouldn't want to be called modern Shakespeare?

00:06:11   Just to be clear, I mean, it's modern Shakespeare, and I mean that in the most negative of all possible ways.

00:06:16   Right.

00:06:17   I think Shakespeare, as far as I could tell, like, he was popular in his day, and apparently was writing in something that was closer to a vernacular, but, like, he was clever in his writing.

00:06:27   But when people are doing Shakespeare today, right, oh, why do English teachers do it?

00:06:33   Like, oh, why do actors like Shakespeare?

00:06:35   It's because in modern day, it has a kind of needless complexity to it.

00:06:40   In modern times for most audiences and most performers, it's, like, entirely about how it sounds and barely about the words themselves in a certain way.

00:06:50   And so it feels like it is pompous and flowery in a modern context that just, like, doesn't need to be the case.

00:06:57   And so this style of writing, which is, like, the Aaron Sorkin-ish, I guess, dialogue style, I feel like this movie is that style turned up to 11.

00:07:08   Now, if I remember, it's like Aaron Sorkin wrote The West Wing, right?

00:07:11   Or, like, he was involved in it?

00:07:13   Is that correct?

00:07:13   The first 88 episodes of The West Wing he wrote.

00:07:16   So it's like, I remember having seen some episodes of The West Wing, and, like, The West Wing does have this style, but it doesn't feel like it was turned up as, like, high as it was in this.

00:07:27   Oh, I always even had, like, slightly mixed feelings about The West Wing, partly because of the way that the dialogue was done.

00:07:32   But it's like, oh, this is just the maximum version of it.

00:07:36   But the problem is, it's like, so I watch this scene, and I'm like, oh, my God, here we go.

00:07:42   And then the movie, like, rolls straight over into Zuckerberg goes home and starts coding up this thing called FaceMash, which they, like, have as a kind of precursor to Facebook.

00:07:54   And while he's doing this, he's, like, dramatically live blogging, like, what a terrible girl, like, his ex-girlfriend is, and then also what he's doing with the coding.

00:08:03   And at that point, I was like, I'm sorry, I need to stop right now, and I just need to check something.

00:08:08   FaceMash is like, was this a real thing?

00:08:11   And it's like, yeah, it basically was.

00:08:12   The thing I wanted to check was, like, was he live blogging his creation of this site while he was doing it one night?

00:08:20   Oh, the answer was yes, actually, much to my surprise.

00:08:24   He actually was, like, live blogging this thing that he was creating.

00:08:28   But the critical piece of information that I stumbled across then, which, like, absolutely for me, just, like, doubled down on everything I was going to hate about the movie, was like, oh, he was dating the woman who would become his wife at this point in college?

00:08:41   So, this is what Mark Zuckerberg says.

00:08:44   This is disputed.

00:08:45   Aaron Sorkin says, the person who is in this movie, Erica Albright, is not the name of the person who he is writing about.

00:08:56   And that there is a person, he has spoken to them, and he has taken their name out for anonymity.

00:09:03   That's what Aaron Sorkin says.

00:09:05   So...

00:09:07   Like, okay, but it just gets right to the whole thing.

00:09:10   It's like, oh, out of the gate, I feel like I cannot trust this movie at all.

00:09:16   And it's, like, it is also why I feel like I tend to avoid this kind of thing, where it's a movie that is, like, a dramatization about someone's life.

00:09:26   Because it's a little bit, like, in trying to find out the story of someone's life, like, this is quite hard anyway.

00:09:33   Because in the dramatization of somebody's life, and, like, trying to tell this story, it's like, what do you have to rely on?

00:09:40   And so, even this thing here, which is essentially what?

00:09:44   Aaron Sorkin says he talked to a girl who said that this happened.

00:09:50   And Zuckerberg says he was dating the woman who would become his wife.

00:09:55   And I feel like, surely, there would be some way to resolve this.

00:09:59   And, like, I just don't rate very highly Aaron Sorkin says a girl told him this thing, even if someone did.

00:10:08   It's like, is this a true statement of what happened?

00:10:12   Another thing, let's park the girl thing about, because I don't know if that is part of, like, what is in what I'm about to say.

00:10:17   Aaron Sorkin says everything that happens in the movie is taken from the two depositions that are given in court cases.

00:10:25   And he says one of the great things about being able to write something like this is you see, kind of on display, the way in which truth is manipulated.

00:10:34   So there are three versions of the same story that he got to draw from.

00:10:38   And he says, and I, as a script writer, I chose across all three versions to tell my story based on what I thought was the best thing for telling the story.

00:10:48   And so there's all these versions of history and he could just weave a narrative through them.

00:10:54   I thought that was kind of fascinating to hear.

00:10:56   I'm actually going to hit on the same thing, which is, like, there's this opening scene about how, like, Zuckerberg creates face masks and, like, he's doing it because this girl broke up with him.

00:11:02   And probably the moment that I like the movie the best is, like, they run through this opening scene and then exactly this.

00:11:09   It cuts to you realize this is a story being told in the deposition.

00:11:14   And I was like, oh, that's great, right?

00:11:16   Like, I kind of like this.

00:11:17   And so, like, the whole movie is being framed as you're watching what happens and then every once in a while they remind you, oh, you're watching what people are telling in the deposition.

00:11:30   What is the thing that happened?

00:11:32   And so, like, that's interesting to hear that this is sort of Aaron Sorkin's perspective on, like, why he created the movie and, like, what's interesting to him about it.

00:11:39   It's like, I can get that, right?

00:11:43   Like, I can understand this from the perspective of the creator who feels like they're doing an interesting thing.

00:11:50   But what I don't like about this is the thing that gets right to what you were saying about Zuckerberg in some sense is, but nonetheless, like, you can do the thing where you say, like, ah, what you're watching is just the testimony from the deposition.

00:12:05   And, like, who knows what happens, but when you're actually watching a movie where, like, 90% of the content is not reminding you that you're in the deposition and you're portraying all of these things.

00:12:18   Most people come away from watching a movie like this remembering, like, what it is that they saw and feeling like this is the story.

00:12:26   Like, I don't think most people watch this movie and come away with a, like, well, wouldn't it be interesting to wonder what happened?

00:12:33   It's like, I think the movie portrays a kind of clear story, in a way, of what happened and is not playing a kind of, like, oh, isn't it interesting to think about what might happen?

00:12:45   Every once in a while, I feel like the movie gives itself this little out.

00:12:49   Yeah, because that would be boring, right?

00:12:49   That would be a bad movie, right?

00:12:50   Like, if every now and then Aaron Sorkin pops in and is like, by the way, this is fake.

00:12:55   If this is all fake, why am I watching this?

00:12:58   Why is this a movie that is the movie about the founding of Facebook?

00:13:03   Yeah, but it's not fake.

00:13:04   It's all based on things that people raised their right hand and said was true.

00:13:09   So then at that point, then what, right?

00:13:12   Like, what are you supposed to do at that point?

00:13:15   Of course, the exact words that people said aren't the right ones, but you know what?

00:13:19   No one remembers what they say.

00:13:21   So what's the difference to make anyway?

00:13:23   There's no way to make a movie like this without making it like this.

00:13:27   Mike, but that is getting to my point in some sense.

00:13:30   Like, oh, why do I tend to avoid this kind of stuff?

00:13:32   It's like, I'm not even disagreeing with that point of.

00:13:34   There's no way to make a movie, right, about this topic without making a movie like this.

00:13:39   Don't make a movie, right?

00:13:41   It's what you would say.

00:13:41   It's not even I'm telling like Aaron Sorkin, don't make the movie.

00:13:44   It's more like of the list of all movies I could potentially watch, why would I watch a movie that is simultaneously doing two things?

00:13:53   It's like, this is what I don't like about it.

00:13:55   Because don't be wrong.

00:13:56   The movie is like, well done.

00:13:58   Like, I could see why it's popular.

00:13:59   Like, it's well shot.

00:14:00   It's well acted.

00:14:01   Like, it moves along.

00:14:02   It keeps you engaged.

00:14:03   Like, there's lots of individual elements that like, if I separate it from the story that it's telling, like, are good.

00:14:10   So it's not that the movie is bad.

00:14:12   It's more like I don't like the existence of the movie.

00:14:16   because it's simultaneously doing the thing of, like, telling you and really putting in your mind, like, a very strong version of history of, like, what happened while simultaneously shrugging its shoulders and, like, passing off responsibility to be like, well, I'm just telling you what was happening in the depositions.

00:14:36   But I'm not really presenting it in the boring way.

00:14:40   It's like I'm dramatizing all of this so that it is interesting.

00:14:44   But then isn't the only way to make this movie is Mark Zuckerberg writes the script?

00:14:48   No one wants to watch that.

00:14:49   So you would just say don't make the movie.

00:14:51   I feel like this version of making the movie is kind of fundamentally fraudulent.

00:14:57   And I just hate it.

00:14:58   Like, I just hate it.

00:14:59   Well, how could it be made then in a way that it would be?

00:15:01   But this is exactly what I'm saying.

00:15:02   It's like, I agree with you.

00:15:04   If you want to make a broadly entertaining movie on this topic, like, this is functionally the only way.

00:15:09   But I just don't, like, the existence of the movie kind of makes me feel gross a little bit.

00:15:16   And as we have discussed, I am not the world's biggest Mark Zuckerberg fan.

00:15:21   But I repeatedly, while watching this movie, felt bad for Zuckerberg.

00:15:27   Not because of the portrayal of him in the movie where he is just, like, a total resentful a**hole.

00:15:34   Which, again, Jesse Eisenberg, A+.

00:15:37   Like, I have never seen an actor who does a better job of, like, constantly looking bitter and resentful without crossing some kind of, like, comedy line.

00:15:47   But I just kept thinking about, like, oh, the actual Mark Zuckerberg in the world.

00:15:51   And feeling, like, what an albatross, like, the existence of this movie is for this person.

00:15:57   Like, what a, like, searing and enduring image, like, blasted into people's minds of what Mark Zuckerberg is like.

00:16:05   That, like, oh, the actual person then has to contend with for forever.

00:16:11   And I think, like, some of the things that have happened with Zuckerberg, as we've gone on in time, are probably a result of the existence of this movie and a result of that portrayal itself.

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00:18:15   I am going to keep coming back to, like, I'm not saying, like, Aaron Sorkin shouldn't have made the movie, but from my perspective, it's like, oh, I don't like the existence of this movie.

00:18:26   I don't like this kind of dramatization of a person's life that is simultaneously, like, very strong and then gives itself, like, a little out to be like, maybe this isn't true.

00:18:39   Ah, it just came from the deposition.

00:18:40   I mean, this kind of goes for all nonfiction movies, right?

00:18:43   It is impossible to make something that truly happened.

00:18:48   You can't do it.

00:18:50   Because from what perspective are you going from?

00:18:53   Where does the information come from?

00:18:55   Like, this movie could not have been made.

00:18:57   Let me try to sharpen this up.

00:18:58   It's like, you could make a movie about the start of Facebook.

00:19:03   It's like, but what is my real annoyance here?

00:19:05   So, ultimately, you always have to be compressing a thing and simplifying stuff, right?

00:19:10   If you want to try to tell the story, you can't tell all of the details.

00:19:14   Lots of the details are unknowable.

00:19:17   But the thing that particularly bothers me about this one, and I feel like is the reason why, from even just knowing a little bit about it, is why I stayed away from it.

00:19:27   It's the incredibly heavy-handed style of it that bothers me when you add that on top of the difficulty of trying to tell this story.

00:19:38   Because the style comes across as impossibly competent and impossibly confident in what it's telling you.

00:19:49   So, like, the style of the movie works entirely against what did Aaron Sorkin have to work with when he was creating this.

00:19:58   It's not a thoughtful piece about what do we know and best guesses.

00:20:03   It's like an impossibly slick thing that burns a particular story, like, right into people's minds.

00:20:10   Again, like, my own personal irritation is the stuff where, like, I'm absolutely sure Aaron Sorkin thought, like, ah, he's being very clever.

00:20:17   It's like, to skip to the end of the movie, it's like, there's a character again who's talking to Mark Zuckerberg.

00:20:22   And just kind of, like, almost blew my lid after watching the whole movie where they're reflecting on what has just happened with these court cases.

00:20:29   And she's like, when there is emotional testimony, I assume that 85% of it is exaggeration.

00:20:35   Zuckerberg says, the other 15?

00:20:37   And she says, perjury.

00:20:39   Creation myths need a devil.

00:20:41   And it's like, oh my god, this is, like, the movie just, like, commenting on itself in a way that just, like, absolutely irritates me to be like,

00:20:51   hey, you've just watched a creation myth about Facebook, and so obviously we needed to make Mark Zuckerberg more of a devil.

00:20:57   But it's like, that is not the impression that is, like, left on you after watching the movie.

00:21:03   You feel like you have watched what happened with Facebook, but the movie's giving itself this, like, little out to be like,

00:21:10   well, what you just watched was 85% exaggeration and 15% perjury.

00:21:14   And then I just sit there feeling like, why would I watch something like this?

00:21:18   Well, then watch the documentary, right?

00:21:20   Like, there's probably a documentary, right, which is less exciting.

00:21:24   It's a movie, right?

00:21:26   It's like any movie based on true events.

00:21:28   Like, they're all this.

00:21:29   Yeah, but it's different if you're doing, like, a war movie and you're focusing on a character who's existing, like, in the context of the war.

00:21:36   It's like, the moment you're trying to make a movie which is, like, dramatized but borderline fictionalized, but you are also making it about a real person.

00:21:47   Like, I just think this is very odd, right?

00:21:50   It's a little bit like, I don't know if you've ever seen The Greatest Showman, which is, like, a musical about Barnum and Bailey.

00:21:56   No.

00:21:56   That is one of these movies where it's like, oh, it's so over the top.

00:21:59   It's kind of funny because it's like, why is this even about Barnum and Bailey?

00:22:04   Like, they've changed, like, every single detail in the world to, like, make this movie about how the circus came to be.

00:22:10   Why didn't you just make it about some other person?

00:22:14   Like, why did you make it about a real person?

00:22:16   And I think the answer is a kind of name recognition.

00:22:20   It's like, oh, that sells tickets, right?

00:22:23   Like, making a movie about a known person is much more likely to get people to watch the movie.

00:22:28   But that still is fundamentally my frustration is feeling like I am watching something that is, like, borderline fictionalized or just, like, cannot be presented in this way.

00:22:37   That is, nonetheless, about an actual person who I don't even like very much, but I feel bad for that person that this piece of media exists in the world and, like, will forever be the first thing that people think of when they're interacting with the actual person who's still alive.

00:22:57   It's like, again, not even having ever seen it, it's like, oh, I had an idea of this portrayal that Jesse Eisenberg does of Zuckerberg.

00:23:04   I think it's changed now.

00:23:05   I do.

00:23:06   I think it's stuck around for a long time.

00:23:08   This movie's 15 years old.

00:23:09   Like, I think for a long time, the Jesse Eisenberg portrayal of Mark Zuckerberg was the only way that people thought about him.

00:23:16   I think Mark Zuckerberg, at this point, has established enough of a personality of his own, especially in recent years, that I do think he's changed who he is to the world a little bit.

00:23:28   But I'm sure some of it still remains, but I don't believe it is as prevailing as it was for probably five to ten years after this movie came out.

00:23:39   I was like, ah, are you saying 15 years later it's not as prevailing as it was probably for the first decade of its existence?

00:23:46   I'm not saying that that makes it better.

00:23:47   I'm just saying, like, I do think that that is the case.

00:23:50   Yeah, but I do think there's something interesting.

00:23:51   Like, having watched this movie, I was thinking a few times how, and again, I don't know the exact details, but I have heard these stories of, like, oh, when the movie came out, like, Zuckerberg took everybody who worked at Facebook to go see it.

00:24:03   And he's, like, in various ways leaned into the movie to some extent in his, like, public life.

00:24:11   The way that I have understood this is, like, he doesn't hate this movie.

00:24:14   There are things that he doesn't like about it.

00:24:16   Because there are things that he says didn't happen the way that they did.

00:24:19   And it's like, okay, I get it.

00:24:21   Yeah, but I guess, like, what I was just going to say there is I kept thinking about how you're Zuckerberg and you're a public person.

00:24:27   It's like, oh, and we're, like, things are on the internet.

00:24:29   Zuckerberg really only has two options, which is, like, to either never comment on it or to lean into it or, like, double down on it in a certain way.

00:24:39   And I feel like, again, he was, like, penned in.

00:24:43   It's like that was the only thing to do.

00:24:44   Like, oh, probably taking all of the Facebook employees to go see it was, like, a good idea from just, like, a strategic perspective.

00:24:51   At the time.

00:24:51   Anyway, that's my thought about the movie from, like, the opening scene is, like, I expected to hate it.

00:24:57   And boy, did I.

00:24:57   I hated it much more than I thought I was going to hate it.

00:25:00   But there's still a lot to talk about with the movie.

00:25:02   I want to say I love this movie.

00:25:04   I love this movie when it came out.

00:25:05   I haven't seen it in a long time.

00:25:07   I don't care that you don't like it, to be honest.

00:25:09   I am surprised to the level at which you don't like it.

00:25:12   But I am not surprised that there is something I love that you don't like.

00:25:18   When it comes to content, that seems to be the way that it goes.

00:25:21   Oh, yeah.

00:25:22   I like things you like.

00:25:24   You don't like things I like is kind of the way that this goes.

00:25:27   So tell me what you like about the movie.

00:25:28   I mean, in general, I like things like this.

00:25:30   I like biographies of people in business.

00:25:36   And this movie kind of does that in a way.

00:25:40   I like that it tells the story of a very particular time.

00:25:45   I want to come back to that in a bit more detail in a bit, like to talk about kind of

00:25:48   like the Internet in that time frame, kind of like the early 2000s.

00:25:55   I love Aaron Salkin.

00:25:57   I love The West Wing.

00:25:59   It's probably my favorite show of all time.

00:26:01   I love the way he writes.

00:26:02   And so like for me, this movie was a treat.

00:26:05   Yeah.

00:26:05   If you like the way he writes, this is like the most pure version of this I've seen.

00:26:09   And I remember at the time being super excited for this movie because it was a quote unquote

00:26:13   good movie about a thing that I cared about, which was technology and the Internet.

00:26:17   This movie was very different in that regard.

00:26:20   When it was first announced, people thought it was a ridiculous idea to make a movie about

00:26:24   Facebook.

00:26:24   I think top to bottom, the performances in this movie are incredible, including Justin Timberlake.

00:26:30   Like I was watching this movie and I kept thinking, I know that guy.

00:26:34   Who is he?

00:26:35   Like I was racking my brain to be like, I don't feel like I've seen him in a lot of movies,

00:26:40   but I know I've seen him.

00:26:41   And I made it all the way to the end and I never checked.

00:26:44   And I didn't remember until right now.

00:26:47   And you told me it's like, oh, my God, it's Justin Timberlake.

00:26:50   Like he disappeared in the role as the founder of Napster.

00:26:55   Like it's just unbelievable.

00:26:56   That's just great meta casting, too, to get a musician to play the guy who created Napster.

00:27:03   Do we need to give context?

00:27:04   No, you should have watched the movie.

00:27:06   And also the movie looks great.

00:27:07   Like we focus a lot on Aaron Sorkin.

00:27:09   He wrote it.

00:27:09   David Fincher directed it.

00:27:11   Fincher is a fantastic director.

00:27:12   He directs a lot of things that are very visually interesting.

00:27:14   And this movie is very visually interesting.

00:27:17   Yeah.

00:27:17   I love David Fincher as a director.

00:27:19   He does some really, really good stuff.

00:27:21   And like his style comes through.

00:27:22   Like the rowing scene.

00:27:23   Oh, the rowing scene.

00:27:25   Yeah.

00:27:25   Fantastic.

00:27:26   So good.

00:27:26   The other thing to mention is the score.

00:27:29   So the score of this movie was the first Trent Reznor, Atticus Ross collaboration movie score, Nine Inch Nails.

00:27:37   So Reznor had done some stuff and Ross had done some stuff.

00:27:40   But this was the first time they did one together.

00:27:42   And then that has now created.

00:27:45   They have scored so many movies at this point.

00:27:48   And after this movie came out in my wider friend group and the communities that I was in online, the score to this movie was everybody's work music.

00:27:57   I can see that.

00:27:58   Yeah, I can see that.

00:27:59   It is incredibly good.

00:28:02   And then obviously they went on to do a bunch of other things.

00:28:05   And they're doing the new Tron movie soundtrack, which I think would be pretty cool.

00:28:08   But yeah, they've done like a bunch of fantastic things together.

00:28:12   So like, there are lots of the components of this movie, which are just fantastic.

00:28:16   I love the framing, right?

00:28:18   As you mentioned, the framing of the movie is being through the court cases is great.

00:28:21   And I now respect it more having done research on it in the last couple of days and like learning about like how that was actually the way in which the movie was conceived was based upon the transcripts from the depositions.

00:28:34   I thought that that was a very interesting way, both from a storytelling perspective, but also from like a research perspective to tell the story like this.

00:28:43   I mean, I probably haven't seen this movie probably in 10 years, honestly, like it's been a really long time.

00:28:50   So now the kind of nostalgia of it all hits totally different.

00:28:55   I hope that you appreciated the shout out to Emacs.

00:28:58   I did notice that if I separate the thing about the real person that this movie is about from like the movie itself, it does have the qualities for me that make a good movie,

00:29:09   which is someone really cared about a lot of details.

00:29:13   And I was very aware of like, oh, lots of places where they just didn't even need to do that.

00:29:19   They did have great details that they were throwing in.

00:29:22   And yes, the shout out to Emacs, like a bunch of the little references.

00:29:25   There's even like a half second shot where I was like, I can't believe someone thought to do that, where they show students who are using the FaceMash website.

00:29:34   The computers couldn't load all the photos at once.

00:29:38   So it's like every time it's showing, here's the two girls that you're comparing to each other.

00:29:41   One photo loads first and it like takes a split second for the next photo to come in.

00:29:47   And I was like, oh, what like what fantastic attention to detail.

00:29:51   What it actually kind of gave me the feeling of was like Mr. Robot vibes of like, oh, they have someone on set who cares about these details and like wanted to make sure to get these things right.

00:30:03   Even just like, oh, I found it quite pleasing.

00:30:04   Like, oh, they're like writing out the chess ranking algorithm, which is like it kind of made me smile.

00:30:08   It's like, oh, has the chess ranking algorithm ever performed a dramatic role in a movie before?

00:30:14   No.

00:30:15   Yeah, like those details were all great.

00:30:17   And it sure does hit on a particular feeling at a particular time when the Internet is new, but also still omnipresent enough in like college students' life.

00:30:33   And you do have that feeling of this distinction between everyone who is young and is aware of the existence of these things.

00:30:39   And then they're working within the framework where like everyone who's part of the older generation, like the lawyers at the deposition or the head of Harvard or like everybody else is like disconnected from what is actually happening with this website.

00:30:55   And like, what is the actually important thing that's going on here?

00:30:58   Like, I feel like it did do a good job of portraying that moment in time as this like delicate balance.

00:31:03   I also really like similarly how they did a lot of work to recreate how Facebook looked, the visual of it at the time.

00:31:12   And I appreciated that kind of detail because, again, as you said, they didn't need to go to the detail that they did to make it kind of feel, I guess, as real as it could.

00:31:22   Yeah.

00:31:22   What I like about it is in these moments, it's like because I'm not a computer programmer, but it's like, oh, I can recognize some of these things.

00:31:28   It's like, oh, yeah, I've used WGET on a website.

00:31:30   It's like, yeah, yeah, I know what this thing is.

00:31:31   Like, that's what you would do.

00:31:32   But it's nice to see, like, when they do those things correct, like when you flash forward to a later scene and it's like Jesse Eisenberg is in this operating system class and there's like a thing that's up on the board that the professor is talking about.

00:31:45   And in that moment, it's like, I have no idea what that professor is talking about.

00:31:50   Like, this is all jibber jabber to me.

00:31:52   But I can feel confident in the movie that, like, I am sure that was selected for a reason.

00:31:57   This is not Star Trek technobabble, like, up on screen.

00:32:01   It's like, oh, for people who are computer programmers, like, that scene is probably nice for them to, like, also be able to recognize the, like, thing that the movie is doing there.

00:32:10   And it's nice to watch something and feel like that's probably a real thing because, like, the lower level stuff that I do recognize, it's like, oh, yeah, they nailed all of that.

00:32:19   So I can feel, like, confident in the movie in at least that part of representing reality.

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00:34:12   There was one line in this movie that it hit me like a brick.

00:34:19   So in the scene with hilariously Dakota Johnson and Justin Timberlake when they're kind of like waking up in the morning and he is finding out about Facebook for the first time, right?

00:34:33   Because she's using it on a computer and she says it's freakishly addictive.

00:34:37   I'm on it like five times a day.

00:34:40   I think it could be easy to look at that line and be like, oh, that's like a wink and a nod.

00:34:46   I don't even know if it would have been in 2010.

00:34:49   I don't think it would have been in the same way that we would view it now.

00:34:53   Like in 2025, the idea of calling a social network addictive because you go on it five times a day, that's hilarious, right?

00:35:02   To think about where we are now.

00:35:04   But 2010, when this movie came out, it was three years after the iPhone came out.

00:35:08   People didn't think of it negatively at that point, I don't think.

00:35:13   Facebook aside, like just the idea of social networking, it wasn't considered to be as negative as people think of it now or addictive.

00:35:23   Yeah.

00:35:24   I don't think we considered smartphone addiction a thing in 2010 because most people still didn't have one.

00:35:29   Yeah, exactly.

00:35:30   Because we're onto what?

00:35:32   The iPhone 3GS?

00:35:34   Yeah, yeah.

00:35:36   Right?

00:35:36   Like it wasn't until the iPhone 5, iPhone 6 when that really exploded around the world.

00:35:41   Yeah, it's interesting.

00:35:42   Even like when the movie is coming out, like what's the time period that it is existing in?

00:35:46   And I was just trying to off the top of my head feel something like, oh, when does the tide turn on the internet in some ways?

00:35:54   Or like when do people start changing their mind?

00:35:56   And it's probably in the like 2014 to 16 range is probably like the high years.

00:36:02   It's when digital well-being was the phrase, right?

00:36:06   That we spoke about a few episodes ago.

00:36:08   That was the time period in which Apple and Google were kind of forced without actually being forced to try and put things in our phones, graphs and charts.

00:36:20   So we could keep an eye on ourselves and meter ourselves as if we would ever do such a thing, you know?

00:36:26   I just wanted to look it up.

00:36:27   It's like, ah, digital well-being is the feature on Android developed by Google announced at Google I.O. in 2018.

00:36:33   But I guess that kind of makes sense of, oh, it's a reaction to the things that were happening earlier.

00:36:38   So yeah, maybe we peg like 2016 is when the sentiment is really changing.

00:36:43   And then by 2018, Google is able to act.

00:36:45   Probably when doom scrolling came about kind of around that time period.

00:36:49   And so like that is the area in which people, I think, started to look more negatively at social networks and ergo their phones because that's where we get that stuff.

00:36:59   And so like I'm on it five times a day was very funny.

00:37:03   But in that 2005 time period, that would be considered quite a lot, right?

00:37:11   Yeah.

00:37:11   Especially for someone at college, right?

00:37:13   Like someone who's got stuff going on.

00:37:14   They were like they're going out and being with people to want to spend that time on Facebook was a thing.

00:37:20   And I have been coming back to this thought a lot over the last few days since watching the movie again.

00:37:27   And maybe this is just me being nostalgic, but I think the Internet was better for society when it was just on our computers.

00:37:37   Because like tell me more, Mike, I spent a lot of time online.

00:37:42   Right.

00:37:42   I was a teen.

00:37:43   I remember there not being the Internet.

00:37:45   I grew up without the Internet for like, you know, many years of my life.

00:37:50   And then I got it right.

00:37:52   And like I remember like the World Wide Web being a thing that was new.

00:37:57   And so I kind of like that part of where I am in the millennial bucket because there are a bunch of millennials who grew up with the Internet.

00:38:04   Like it was there from the beginning.

00:38:05   But like I remember it becoming a thing.

00:38:07   But I also remember like I would have my computer, you know, when I was a teen, I had my Mac and I would come home from school and I'd spend a bunch of time online.

00:38:18   But then if I left the computer, I left the Internet behind.

00:38:23   When I would go and do something else, maybe I was out with friends.

00:38:27   Maybe I was doing anything else.

00:38:30   The Internet was no longer there.

00:38:32   And whenever I wanted it, I could go back to it.

00:38:36   If I was doing something else, the Internet didn't come with me.

00:38:41   And I think that while so much of the world has been improved by having the Internet in my pocket, right, like mapping, for example, right, like being able to find new places and get around.

00:38:53   I think the level at which we're connected to the wider world, not the people on our lives, like the whole Internet, I think that is not good for us on the whole.

00:39:04   I think it is good to have that connection in our lives and to be able to kind of understand more about people from all over the world and all of the good things that that can bring.

00:39:14   But in a limited way, I think is better than the way that we have it today, where it is a constant thing that we're using and experiencing.

00:39:25   Yeah, I guess this is probably helpful for me contextually.

00:39:28   Seeing this scene hit me at the exact right time as I am once again considering my relationship to social networking.

00:39:36   And I started making some changes.

00:39:39   We might get to those in a little bit.

00:39:40   And I saw this movie and I'm like, yes, I think this is good, right, what I'm wanting to do to kind of, like, detach my iPhone from social networking a little bit.

00:39:52   I found it to be fascinating and it's just made me think that, like, the innocence of the early 2000s is something that I long for a little bit.

00:40:04   There is something about that to me right now that feels a little better than, like, hey, I'm looking at, like, six things right now to get the internet.

00:40:13   Yeah, no, I think I'll completely agree with that.

00:40:17   It's like the movie is really presenting this limited window of time where it's like, oh, computers exist and the internet exists, but it hasn't gone mobile yet.

00:40:25   But also computers are widespread.

00:40:28   They're, like, not novelties.

00:40:30   So it's like, oh, that is the time period of, like, the 2000s of computers exist, but mobile internet doesn't.

00:40:37   I didn't think about it in exactly that way, but that might be the time period in a way of, like, peak potential for good relationship with connective technology at that point.

00:40:50   And, yes, like, the moment it is now with you all the time, it does fundamentally change something.

00:40:55   That was a good time.

00:40:56   I think maybe the best possible time was after the iPhone up until about 2010.

00:41:01   Like, I think those first few years of the iPhone, they were, like, the peak social media time.

00:41:07   Like, social media was new and it was good.

00:41:10   And if you were interested in social media, you were pretty nerdy.

00:41:14   Everyone was really like-minded.

00:41:16   Yeah.

00:41:16   So this is the other part of it is, like, it's the grandest part of a selection effect where it's not just what is the technological level, but who is able to do it.

00:41:25   And so, yeah, in particular, like, those first few years of the existence of the iPhone, who are the people who even have iPhones?

00:41:32   It's not the general population of, like, literally everyone has one.

00:41:36   You're, like, pre-selecting for a certain kind of person.

00:41:39   And then, like you said, yes, on average, those people are going to be more like-minded or they have similar interests, again, compared to literally everyone on Earth.

00:41:51   They're going to have, like, slightly more aligned ideas about, like, how should this work?

00:41:55   So you have a thing that's, like, more coherent.

00:41:57   But, yeah, as time goes on and then you get to the place where it is literally everyone on Earth is connected with these devices, you should expect that this becomes a significantly more fractious environment than it does when it's 2008 and the iPhone is, like, available in limited places and is very expensive.

00:42:17   And, like, the mobile data for it is also very expensive.

00:42:20   Seems obvious in retrospect, but also just, like, is not a thing that it seems like you ever hear anyone of the time commenting on.

00:42:29   I think for me, it's too many opinions.

00:42:31   Mm-hmm.

00:42:32   You know, why do people say, and I feel like I see this a lot more now, that people say my group chat is what I like and Discord I prefer to Twitter or whatever.

00:42:41   It's like, yeah, because you're finding more like-minded people in smaller groups rather than, like, every opinion that exists in the world.

00:42:49   I mean, I would just say that's the selection effect in reverse, right?

00:42:52   It's actually a significantly stronger selection effect.

00:42:54   Like, you're just selecting people down to, like, the small group of people in your group chat or you're selecting them down to who is on this Discord server.

00:43:01   It's the same thing just going backwards.

00:43:04   It's just like, oh, when the iPhone first came out, like, there was a natural selection effect.

00:43:10   And now people who are finding ways to try to, like, regain that are having to have an artificial selection effect of, like, putting up artificial boundaries or just fragmenting off into these different groups.

00:43:20   I don't know if I take the wrong lessons from this movie in any way, but, like, there is something that I find exciting in the they're starting something new.

00:43:29   Like, watching Eduardo Saverin and Mark Zuckerberg, like, they're starting this new thing together.

00:43:36   It's like, ah, like, that is such a good feeling.

00:43:38   That, like, unknown, endless possibilities kind of thing that they're in.

00:43:43   And they're so unaware.

00:43:46   They're, like, really bootstrapping it.

00:43:48   Like, I really do love that part of the story because I've experienced some of that myself in my life, right?

00:43:54   Obviously, vastly varying outcome, but an outcome in which I consider to be the one I wanted, right?

00:44:00   And they got what they wanted.

00:44:02   Well, one of them did.

00:44:04   Yeah, one of them got what I wanted.

00:44:05   One of them did.

00:44:06   But, like, I really do like that part of this movie of, like, they have an idea and they work on it together and they make something out of it.

00:44:14   Like, there is something in there that is, I find it exciting to see.

00:44:18   Oh, yeah.

00:44:19   Like, watching a person be successful, like, through their talent is just, like, satisfying to watch.

00:44:24   I don't think that's, like, a wrong lesson.

00:44:27   Like, that's hardly a lesson at all.

00:44:28   It is the nature of watching this kind of thing.

00:44:30   It's like, oh, you want to see something start.

00:44:32   And, of course, the greater the success of the thing, the more dramatic the start is of, like, oh, they're just there in their room.

00:44:39   And, again, it's like, oh, these funny scenes which hit upon a certain thing where it's like, ah, they're, like, counting individual signups, right, to their website.

00:44:47   It's like, oh, for me, that 100% triggered, like, oh, I remember when I started my YouTube channel, like, you could have an email notification for every time you got a subscriber.

00:44:58   And it's like, I remember, right, watching, like, the number tick up one at a time.

00:45:03   And it's like, there really is a thing of, like, that period of time is the most exciting period of time for the growth of anything.

00:45:10   It's like the initial beginning and that initial acceleration are something that is just irreplicable.

00:45:17   Like, at larger scales, it just doesn't feel the same.

00:45:21   But, yeah, when they're in their dorm counting up to, like, we're going to have 1,000 users, it's like, oh, I felt that very hard.

00:45:26   It's like, oh, I know exactly what that feeling is.

00:45:28   Like, it's the most exciting period of growth is, like, right at the start because you're thinking, where could this possibly go?

00:45:34   And for Facebook, it went over the whole of the earth, basically, like, the most successful social network ever.

00:45:43   I mean, it is the social network.

00:45:44   It's just Facebook, not the Facebook, so it's cleaner.

00:45:47   Yeah, also, they have a great line from that, which you're saying about the numbers, is a million dollars isn't cool.

00:45:53   You know what is a billion dollars?

00:45:54   I say a million views, Gray.

00:45:56   That ain't cool.

00:45:58   You know what's cool?

00:45:59   A billion views.

00:45:59   Ah, you make me blush, Mike.

00:46:00   You know what you're saying about numbers, though?

00:46:02   So at the end of this movie, they do a kind of, where are they now?

00:46:05   And they're, like, talking about the two cases, the Winklevoss case, the Savarin case, and kind of, like, how it ended.

00:46:11   And then it tries to hit this point home to be, like, today, Facebook is valued at $25 billion.

00:46:19   Today, Facebook has a market cap of $1.3 trillion.

00:46:24   Holy moly, $1.3 trillion.

00:46:27   Where they're trying to make the $25 billion number, right, like, seem like a big thing.

00:46:32   But just, like, when you look at it 15 years on, which I think, what, this movie was released in 2010, it's telling the story of, like, yeah, it's, like, five years on, it's $25 billion, which is incredible.

00:46:42   Like, just a wild growth.

00:46:44   Plus, that was the valuation, and they had not IPO'd.

00:46:46   Oh, right, right, yeah, yeah, so it's pre-IPO and everything, yeah.

00:46:50   Their actual value, you know, their market cap is $1.3 trillion.

00:46:54   That feels like the kind of thing you should be able to go back into your movie and just change that number and re-render it.

00:47:00   Every year, they have to put a new version of the movie.

00:47:03   In order to make it hit, right, because people in the movie are talking about billions, right, they would have to instead say, it's, like, today, Facebook is worth $1,250 billion, right?

00:47:13   That's the way you want to put it, right?

00:47:14   So it, like, really hits home.

00:47:16   Or maybe they get Justin Timberlake back in, and he's, like, actually, you know what's cool?

00:47:20   A trillion.

00:47:21   A trillion is cool.

00:47:22   A billion?

00:47:24   Yeah, nothing.

00:47:25   A trillion.

00:47:26   You're on your road to a trillion views now, Gray.

00:47:29   Mm-hmm.

00:47:29   Has any YouTuber done that?

00:47:30   No, it can't be, right?

00:47:31   I feel like the music channels must hit that, right?

00:47:33   There's got to be music channels that have a trillion views.

00:47:35   I'm fairly sure that's true.

00:47:37   Oh, no, maybe not.

00:47:38   No one's at a trillion.

00:47:39   It's, like, still hundreds of billions, I guess.

00:47:41   Currently, the most viewed YouTube channel is T-Series.

00:47:45   It's T-Series.

00:47:46   291 billion?

00:47:49   Okay, so no one has hit a trillion.

00:47:51   Wow, so we're a long way away from that, then.

00:47:53   Looking at this movie now, I mean, obviously, I love it.

00:47:55   I wish they could do more of them.

00:47:57   There are other stories in the history of Facebook that I would love to see explored.

00:48:02   I mean, look, I'll tell you right now, you know what spinoff I want?

00:48:05   I want the Winklevoss twins spinoff.

00:48:07   Oh, let's talk about that real quick.

00:48:08   I want to park Armie Hammer aside.

00:48:11   The Armie Hammer of it all is wild.

00:48:13   Go to Wikipedia page.

00:48:14   Truly horrific stuff.

00:48:17   Anyway, why did they not cast twins?

00:48:19   Cast twins.

00:48:20   There must be some identical twins out there in the world.

00:48:23   Is that what they did?

00:48:24   Was there one actor that they filmed doing two different parts?

00:48:27   They have a body double for some of them, and then they digitally put Armie Hammer's face

00:48:34   on the body double in some scenes.

00:48:35   I will say, from a technical perspective, that was absolutely seamless.

00:48:39   Like, I didn't realize.

00:48:40   Everybody thought that Armie Hammer was a twin.

00:48:43   To me, it feels like they made that so much harder than it needed to be.

00:48:48   Like, surely there are some identical twins that are good actors.

00:48:51   Like, he wasn't a known person.

00:48:53   Like, it wasn't like having him in it was going to get more people to see the movie.

00:48:57   Right?

00:48:58   Like, it's always been, like, a very strange decision to me.

00:49:00   Like, to do that in 2010?

00:49:03   Like, the face technology, whatever they did then was very good.

00:49:06   Yeah, I'm actually shocked to hear that that's what they used.

00:49:09   Because, again, I never noticed the effect at all.

00:49:11   And I just assumed that there were two actors.

00:49:13   I've actually never come across this person before.

00:49:15   So, but, like, that's interesting.

00:49:16   There's a bunch of different techniques.

00:49:18   There are some techniques which are simple, where they're just one guy's just got his back to you.

00:49:23   And if you know what you're looking for, you can see it.

00:49:25   Sometimes they're doing that thing where they're shooting two scenes separately.

00:49:28   And they're kind of, like, stitching them together in a way.

00:49:31   And at some points, they are actually doing face replacement on him.

00:49:35   In the movie, like, you're talking about the other stories.

00:49:39   I genuinely did find, like, oh, the Winklevoss twins are the most compelling character in a way.

00:49:44   I just kind of found, like, what they're up to was, like, very interesting.

00:49:48   It's like, I would like to see more about them.

00:49:49   And I think the reason that they cast that guy to play both roles is because when I looked up the real Winklevoss twins,

00:49:56   it's like, oh, my God, what a dead ringer in the physicality for both of these guys.

00:50:02   But it's like, oh, they seem like cartoon characters in a way of, like, these Harvard Olympic rower dudes.

00:50:09   But, yeah, the actor just really looks like and has the same kind of physicality as these two guys do.

00:50:14   So it's like, I can understand why that happened.

00:50:15   But, yeah.

00:50:16   It still feels like so much hard work.

00:50:18   But they did it anyway.

00:50:19   Oh, while we're talking about performances, because we've spent so much time talking about Jesse Eisenberg,

00:50:24   like, Andrew Garfield is so damn good in this movie.

00:50:27   Like, the scene with smashing the laptop.

00:50:30   Oh, my God.

00:50:31   Oh, it's so good.

00:50:33   I love Andrew Garfield in general.

00:50:35   I think he is a great actor.

00:50:36   And I think his performance in this movie is brilliant.

00:50:40   That scene is just so iconic.

00:50:42   I'm just picking that computer up and smashing it.

00:50:44   Yeah, he does a great job as being, like, this sympathetic person.

00:50:48   Again, like, my brain is running the, like, background loop of, like, what really happened in all of these various interactions.

00:50:55   But just, again, as a performance, he does a really good job.

00:50:58   And it's quite easy to be sympathetic with him trying to be the person who, like, makes the company money and ultimately getting screwed out.

00:51:05   Well, I would like to see other stories.

00:51:08   I would like to see a movie about them buying Instagram and what that does to Facebook.

00:51:12   You want Jesse Eisenberg to reprise his role as Mark Zuckerberg?

00:51:15   I do, but he won't because he's been in the press a lot recently because he just had a big movie last year.

00:51:20   It was in Oscar races.

00:51:21   And there are actually a bunch of quotes because it was at the same time that Facebook were changing a bunch of policies.

00:51:26   And, like, Eisenberg is like, I don't like to be associated with him, essentially, is what he's saying.

00:51:34   I get it.

00:51:34   He's proud of the movie, but, like, he doesn't like to be associated with being Mark Zuckerberg because so many people just, that's Mark Zuckerberg.

00:51:44   I think it's actually more the reverse now where people see Jesse Eisenberg and think of Mark Zuckerberg rather than the other way around.

00:51:51   I think it's Mark Zuckerberg has done such a job of, like, building his own image now.

00:51:55   But I would like to see more of it because I just think Facebook as a company, because of how big it is and how prevalent it is, there's a lot of other stories in there.

00:52:05   Like, I think it would be interesting because I would prefer to watch a bunch of movies and read a bunch of books.

00:52:09   You know what I mean?

00:52:10   Yeah, for sure.

00:52:11   But I feel like, no, Jesse Eisenberg, no go, right?

00:52:14   Like, the portrayal is too iconic.

00:52:16   Like, you just couldn't have someone else come in and play that character.

00:52:19   I don't want another Facebook movie if Jesse Eisenberg isn't doing it.

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00:54:57   Talking about social network, I want to talk about social networks.

00:55:00   I want to talk about social media a bit.

00:55:02   Yeah.

00:55:02   Because when I was thinking about this show, I just don't know your answer to this, which is,

00:55:07   do you use any social media anymore?

00:55:10   It's an interesting time to ask the question, because just recently I felt a little bit of a pull

00:55:15   to perhaps investigate this area and kind of think about this again.

00:55:19   But essentially, no, like, you know, when you were talking before about, like, the ideal time

00:55:25   of when, like, we had the internet, but it's on computers and it's not actually in your pocket,

00:55:28   or, like, the very early days of the iPhone, two things happened to me over a sequence of years.

00:55:34   And, like, one of the very first things was when I had Twitter on my phone, I really started

00:55:40   to become aware of how much I felt like there was a background process in my brain, which

00:55:46   was always just thinking about Twitter in some small way.

00:55:50   And it was like, oh, should I post something on Twitter or should I check something on Twitter?

00:55:54   I felt for me and, like, the nature of the work I do, I want to have as few things as I'm

00:55:59   thinking about, but I want to think about, like, the small number of things very intensely.

00:56:03   And recognizing, like, oh, this is a problem, like, this is a constant minor distraction.

00:56:08   I think as many people have just seen over the years, I felt like, oh, social media,

00:56:16   particularly with a book like So You've Been Publicly Shamed coming out, it's like just

00:56:21   realizing, like, participating in social media is kind of like you're playing a game of roulette.

00:56:27   There might be 10,000 chambers in this revolver instead of six, but it does still feel like

00:56:34   you're kind of playing roulette every time you post on the internet because it is almost

00:56:41   inconceivable sometimes when and how people get in trouble.

00:56:45   And it's like, I have friends and colleagues who's like, I have seen up close, like, they

00:56:51   post something that is very innocuous.

00:56:53   And then it's like, oh, the next several years of their life are, like, endlessly dealing with,

00:56:59   like, an increasingly crazy fallout of, like, a thing that they've said.

00:57:03   I think for me, it isn't even innocuousness, sometimes it's just you post something like

00:57:08   it's the thing that you always post.

00:57:10   Yeah, exactly.

00:57:11   But the people that follow you know it, but just blows up.

00:57:14   Yeah, exactly.

00:57:16   Because there's a couple of things I'm thinking of, like, are the craziest examples of, like,

00:57:19   things that have happened where it's like a huge thing blows up over nothing.

00:57:23   And it's just seeing the nature of that and seeing that, like, up close just really drives

00:57:29   home the point of, like, a basic kind of, like, risk-reward calculation.

00:57:33   Like, what can you expect to gain from posting this thing on the internet?

00:57:37   There's dubious potentiality of, like, what could be gained.

00:57:42   It's like, ah, what could be lost?

00:57:44   It's like quite a lot, right?

00:57:45   You could have, like, a massive disruption to your life over seemingly nothing.

00:57:51   And, like, the difficulty of it is not even, like, it's not the thing that people are making

00:57:56   some kind of intentional decision to be like, I'm going to post something edgy and maybe it'll

00:58:00   get me a bunch of attention and then they get in trouble.

00:58:02   It's like, no, no, no.

00:58:03   The very clear lesson that has been learned is, like, you can be blindsided at any moment

00:58:09   by almost anything, any kind of interaction.

00:58:12   And this isn't a thing just for content creators.

00:58:14   No, it's not just a thing for content creators.

00:58:16   I actually think it's worse because it happens to regular people.

00:58:18   People who are just living their life.

00:58:20   Yeah, so this is the thing is, like, I completely agree with you.

00:58:24   Like, as a content creator, there's a certain kind of calculation because, like, you need

00:58:29   to post things about your business.

00:58:31   But I completely agree because it's kind of like what I was saying with Zuckerberg and

00:58:35   this movie is, like, I think a lesson that a lot of creators have also learned is, like,

00:58:38   if there's a storm, like, just don't pay any attention to it.

00:58:42   Like, that is the best strategy that you can possibly have.

00:58:45   And as a content creator, like, we have all seen very many people, like, survive surprisingly

00:58:51   intense storms and just, like, truck along as though nothing has happened.

00:58:54   But yes, if you are a normal person living a normal life and then you end up being the center

00:59:00   of this random storm on the internet, that will forever be the most prominent thing that anyone

00:59:06   ever sees about you.

00:59:08   And you have no upside at all.

00:59:11   That's why it's like, I think the thing that people think about with something like this

00:59:15   is, like, oh, public personalities have a kind of risk from participating in social networks

00:59:22   too closely, which is why increasingly over time, like, you see fewer and fewer people do

00:59:26   this.

00:59:27   But also by being a public personality, there is an upside.

00:59:31   But then I think if you take someone who being in media in any way or, like, being a personality

00:59:37   is not actually their job, that seems to me, like, 10 times crazier to be participating in

00:59:44   this system.

00:59:44   Because then it's like, oh, you have no upside.

00:59:47   You just have the downside risk.

00:59:50   Like, why on earth would you do this?

00:59:53   But obviously by, like, the nature of the ratio of these things, that's the vast majority of

00:59:58   participants posting are not doing it in a professional capacity.

01:00:03   They're doing it in a personal capacity.

01:00:05   And it just feels like you're taking your life into your hands every single time you do

01:00:10   this.

01:00:10   Like, why do this?

01:00:12   Like, we're focusing on the risk of being canceled here, right?

01:00:16   But it's not just that.

01:00:17   It's like, you make everything you say Google-able to someone who might want to know something

01:00:24   about you for reasons you may care about.

01:00:26   Maybe you've gone for a job interview.

01:00:27   Maybe you just met someone new, right?

01:00:29   Like, and they can find everything you've ever said on social media, right?

01:00:34   Like, it's all available for people to read.

01:00:38   Maybe you want to pass customs and they can Google you, right?

01:00:43   Like, these are the risks that we take in saying any random thought publicly.

01:00:51   Yeah.

01:00:52   I mean, that's why I was using a word like storm to try to have it in a more general way.

01:00:56   Because, like, I actually wasn't specifically thinking about canceling.

01:00:59   It was just, like, problems.

01:01:00   I think that's what people think of, though, when you talk about it.

01:01:02   Yeah, that's fair.

01:01:03   But it's like, what I was trying to think, like, even what you mentioned there, like,

01:01:06   I don't know if it's still the case, but, like, doesn't...

01:01:09   I feel like it was the U.S. introduced a policy of where, like, the border patrol agents can now ask for your social media handles.

01:01:15   Like, if you are not a U.S. citizen on entry and it's like...

01:01:18   Yeah, and without getting into it, it's actually gotten worse, too, but in the last little while.

01:01:23   Okay, well, fantastic.

01:01:25   But, again, there's just, like, another example of this.

01:01:28   It's like, what is the potential upside of doing all of these things?

01:01:32   Potential downside.

01:01:34   You're traveling to America for whatever reason and you have to pass over your handle.

01:01:38   And then now you are at risk of, like, not even, like, have you said anything that's bad?

01:01:43   The real question is, is the border guard who's looking at your social media going to dislike anything you've posted?

01:01:52   Which is just, like, a fundamental different question in a scenario like that.

01:01:56   It's like, oh, I made a joke on the 4th of July 2015.

01:01:59   Now I can't go to America anymore.

01:02:01   Oh, you posted something which is within the realm of normal disagreement.

01:02:06   It's just that the border guard is on the other side of whatever issue it is that you posted.

01:02:11   And it's like, ah, great.

01:02:13   Maybe they're a flat earther, you know?

01:02:15   Like, who knows?

01:02:15   Stupid globehead.

01:02:19   I'm not letting him.

01:02:19   I tried to go with, like, what is the most acceptable thing I can say here that the vast majority of people can agree with, but that we all know that there are people that disagree with.

01:02:31   The thing here is like, oh, this isn't the world that I want to be living in or the world that I foresaw coming.

01:02:39   And it is also why, like, a movie like this, having watched The Social Network, the movie is grim in a bunch of ways, but it still does have that little bit of a feeling of like, oh, a thing is growing and expanding and there's connections.

01:02:52   Social networking is not in any way considered to be a bad thing in this movie.

01:02:57   Yeah, exactly.

01:02:58   Like, it's just, it is a thing that exists and it's a tool.

01:03:01   It's actually not even a plot point.

01:03:03   It's not a point in this movie at all.

01:03:06   It's actually considered a good thing, like it seems, by and large, in the context of the movie, because it's never portrayed negatively.

01:03:13   The only sin in the movie is ignorance of The Social Network.

01:03:18   And I was kind of surprised that there basically was, like, no kind of commentary on anything that's negative here once we move past the, like, initial face mash thing.

01:03:28   But it is a thing that's just like, oh, you think back to, like, what must the early days of this have been like and, like, what is the experience for everyone at the time?

01:03:37   And then, like, what has it become?

01:03:39   Again, it's this feeling to me of, in retrospect, it's inevitable, but it didn't feel that way at the time.

01:03:47   And it makes me a little sad that this is what has happened.

01:03:52   Of, like, the thing that I thought was a great digital tool and a kind of, like, ushering in of the future.

01:04:00   And even what you're saying of, like, watching Facebook grow is, like, I definitely remember having feelings of, like, watching the spread of technology and just, like, watching the, like, continued interconnection of the world and feeling like, boy, won't this just be great?

01:04:16   Like, here we are at the end of history because, like, everything is, like, accelerating upwards.

01:04:21   And as soon as everyone can just, like, talk to each other, I guess we'll resolve our problems because we'll all have read How to Win Friends and Influence People.

01:04:30   And the only kinds of disagreements are disagreements because people don't understand each other.

01:04:35   And all of this technology will help bring us closer together.

01:04:38   And it's like, oh, boy, instead, what I thought was this tool that was a kind of universal panacea, again, turned out to be a revolver with a thousand chambers that you, like, play roulette on every time you post.

01:04:52   And it's like, oh, this isn't what I thought that was at all.

01:04:55   This is very different.

01:04:57   So do you use any?

01:05:01   Do you ever spend time on any social network now?

01:05:05   So essentially, no.

01:05:06   Like, I use it for posting stuff.

01:05:09   But I've just pulled back from.

01:05:10   Yeah, but you're posting.

01:05:11   What you're posting is, here's the podcast.

01:05:12   Like, you're just posting links, essentially.

01:05:14   That's exactly it.

01:05:15   I'm essentially using them as, like, alternate broadcast services for the content that I have produced for the people who wish to follow me on those platforms.

01:05:24   Like, that's what I'm doing.

01:05:25   But even on the consumption end of it, I feel like, for me, the last network to fall was Twitter, where it's like, I wasn't even looking at Twitter, really.

01:05:37   So really, like, my information diet was something more like switching to RSS feeders and trying to follow blogs of interesting people who I liked.

01:05:45   But those things would often lead me to Twitter, right?

01:05:48   Because there'd be a link.

01:05:49   And, like, quite frequently, like, this is the thing where it's like, oh, an interesting discussion is happening on Twitter about thing X.

01:05:55   And so, like, that was my last little, like, how am I getting to this place would be kind of, like, following those links.

01:06:02   And I still do, like, have the Twitter account.

01:06:05   But even there, I made a decision to really try to, like, pull back from that and not even, like, click links going to Twitter.

01:06:13   Because, I mean, honestly, part of it was my Twitter wants to show me nothing but a whole bunch of AI news, which I find, like, increasingly depressing, right?

01:06:22   It's figured out, like, what is my kind of doom scrolling and is like, boy, is it ready to be showing me a bunch of stuff about that.

01:06:29   Like, the moment I land there, it does the thing of, like, oh, do you want to just look at, like, the things that we have to recommend for you?

01:06:35   It's like, I sure do.

01:06:35   Click.

01:06:36   And then it's like, oh, well, I guess I just lay down and give up now.

01:06:41   That's the feeling that I have.

01:06:43   So even that, I've tried to, like, essentially not do that anymore.

01:06:48   But, yeah, that is my experience with it is, like, even my light interactions with social media are, like, all downside in various ways.

01:06:59   What are you up to these days?

01:07:01   Because I feel like you're still in this world more than I am.

01:07:03   Before I answer that, there's one more thing I wanted to ask you about it, though.

01:07:07   So, like, what do you do when you're in line?

01:07:11   Like, when you're in line for something, what are you doing?

01:07:16   What do I do?

01:07:17   This also just gets to the thing that, like, I feel that the, like, the phones and the internet have done to everyone.

01:07:24   It's just, like, absolutely destroy people's ability to deal with pauses in any way, shape, or form.

01:07:34   It's, like, oh, the moment there's a pause, it's, like, people just have to fill it.

01:07:40   It's not just social networks, but social networks are, like, the harbinger of this kind of behavior, of, like, encouraging this in absolutely everyone.

01:07:48   And it's not even just about being in lines.

01:07:52   But I'm aware increasingly of, like, oh, interacting with people in the real world.

01:07:56   It's, like, time to someone pulling out their phone because pause in conversation.

01:08:02   Like, that number just keeps going down and down, like, with everyone.

01:08:07   And I think it's because people get, like, constant reinforcement that that is the thing to do.

01:08:12   The answer to that question is it's important to me to have kind of mental free space in life.

01:08:21   I do listen to podcasts a bunch, like, I have podcasts on my phone.

01:08:24   So, depending on what I'm doing, I will listen to a podcast.

01:08:28   But I am very aware of trying to default to something, like, if I'm out somewhere and I'm going to be online,

01:08:35   like, the default thing should be to listen to music so that I can still be thinking about something.

01:08:40   I don't do that 100% of the time.

01:08:42   But, like, yeah.

01:08:43   If I'm on a line, the ideal state is I should be, like, listening to music and or listening to a podcast.

01:08:50   I really don't like taking out my phone to check on things.

01:08:54   And as long-time listeners will know, I have spent an enormous amount of effort to various degrees of success and failure over the years attempting to make my phone as undisruptive as possible.

01:09:06   But I am aware of how, like, oh, in the modern world, that also just means, like, I am, I'm, like, a total nuisance to everyone else in my life because I'm, like, a wild outlier of difficult to contact precisely because of that.

01:09:19   But I find the potential of, like, constant interruption just really distracting.

01:09:24   And I think that's why I've always kind of been this way with my phone of trying to keep it at arm's length precisely because of these kinds of things.

01:09:31   So for me right now, I have taken text-based social media off my phone completely.

01:09:38   It's, like, for the last two weeks.

01:09:39   Okay.

01:09:40   So this includes Blue Sky, Mastodon, Threads, right?

01:09:45   Like, the three networks.

01:09:47   The three non-Xs, yeah.

01:09:49   Yes.

01:09:50   Right?

01:09:50   But they're, like, the three things that exist, right, to replace that one thing.

01:09:55   It's, like, wow, I just realized, like, you know, cut me down and three will appear.

01:10:00   The hydra of social networks that I am using today.

01:10:04   My favorite one of them now is Blue Sky.

01:10:07   Like, that's the one that I like the most.

01:10:09   And it is the mix of people I want to follow.

01:10:12   Okay.

01:10:12   Right?

01:10:13   Because it covers all my interests.

01:10:15   I want to follow a lot of people in gaming.

01:10:17   None of them successfully moved away from Twitter.

01:10:20   Yeah, that's not surprising.

01:10:21   The most that they moved to was Blue Sky.

01:10:23   And so, like, there's more of that kind of stuff on Blue Sky than anyone else.

01:10:26   So I get tech there.

01:10:27   I get Formula One there.

01:10:28   I get gaming there, right?

01:10:29   So, like, I get the majority of the stuff that I'm interested in.

01:10:31   Okay.

01:10:32   This is a very early project.

01:10:35   So, like, I will just say a thing that I'm doing, but we will talk about it later because

01:10:39   it's way too soon.

01:10:40   I am trying to establish personal phone, work phone.

01:10:46   So I have another device, which I'm trying to make my work phone.

01:10:51   And that's where these things are right now.

01:10:54   I consider social media to be work.

01:10:58   I have Instagram on my personal phone.

01:11:00   For me, Instagram is very different.

01:11:02   Like, how it makes me feel, the amount of time that it takes.

01:11:06   And, like, I just use it differently and think about it differently to how I think about text-based

01:11:11   social media, which I find to be more destructive and it can suck me in more in, like, a way

01:11:16   that I don't like.

01:11:17   And so I'm trying to separate them out.

01:11:20   There are, like, other things that I want to do, but I want to do some experimentation first.

01:11:24   But to come back to social media, I think that for me right now, as a creator, I'm not really

01:11:31   getting anything from social media anymore, like, realistically.

01:11:34   I think in 2025, to succeed in social media, you have to lean into algorithms and the things

01:11:43   that algorithms like, which is very different to what it was 10 years ago or whatever, right?

01:11:49   Where it was more than just about, like, the people that followed you when they cared and

01:11:53   they would see the things that you'd see.

01:11:54   But, like, now everything is much more algorithm-based.

01:11:58   You still need to lean into things that are trends to try and get in front of new people.

01:12:03   And so you have to kind of be willing to do that, which I'm not.

01:12:06   I'm, like, not interested in that.

01:12:08   So for me at this point, I actually don't think there is much that I can gain out of using social

01:12:16   media as a creator.

01:12:16   The most that I gain, which I do still use it for in this way, is, like, the people that

01:12:23   have chosen to follow me can find out a little bit about the stuff that I'm doing.

01:12:28   But that is kind of it.

01:12:29   Like, I'm not attempting to grow my social media anymore.

01:12:35   Like, it's just not a thing I care about.

01:12:37   I don't post my takes.

01:12:38   I just keep them to myself.

01:12:39   Like, being a takesman is, like, a thing that people do, right?

01:12:45   Like, to try and get more followers.

01:12:47   And I'm just not interested in, like, the trends, right?

01:12:51   Like, following the trends.

01:12:52   To me, it's just like, well, there's not...

01:12:53   From a work perspective, there isn't really much that I can gain.

01:12:57   And so, like, I use social media in my work as a way to get opinions from people and, like,

01:13:04   information for the shows.

01:13:06   So for that reason, I want it off my personal device.

01:13:11   Keep it on the work device.

01:13:12   Still keep the amount that I use it for very limited.

01:13:15   Like, I just think that that is better for where I am right now.

01:13:19   Because what I'm trying to do is, like, I have a minute and I'm just not going to check social media.

01:13:25   That's what I'm trying to break.

01:13:28   What I'm actually trying to replace it with, reading.

01:13:35   And unbelievably, that's what I'm trying to do more of.

01:13:38   I was about to say, surely not books, Mike.

01:13:40   You don't mean reading books.

01:13:41   Great.

01:13:41   It could be books.

01:13:42   It could be books.

01:13:44   Oh, my God.

01:13:44   It could be books.

01:13:45   Maybe books.

01:13:46   Maybe this is the year of books.

01:13:48   I don't know.

01:13:48   I'm trying to read more.

01:13:50   I, like, read things that are interesting.

01:13:52   Like, in the past two weeks, I have finally read a bunch of tabs I've had opened for about a year on my iPhone.

01:13:59   Of, like, I will come back to this article and I'm going to finally read them.

01:14:02   So, like, that's what I'm trying to do.

01:14:04   Oh, you're clearing the queue.

01:14:05   Okay.

01:14:05   Yeah.

01:14:05   That's kind of what I'm trying to do a little bit more of.

01:14:08   And so, that was why I asked, like, what do you do?

01:14:10   Because it's like, maybe there's something interesting in there for me to find out.

01:14:14   Like, a thing to do on my iPhone when I've got 10 minutes.

01:14:17   But, yeah, I don't get what I want out of it as much anymore.

01:14:20   And that from both personally and professionally.

01:14:25   There is still something to get professionally.

01:14:28   So, I will use it for that.

01:14:31   When you're saying something to get professionally, it's like you're talking about the inputs, right?

01:14:35   That's where you say, like, you're soliciting opinions, right?

01:14:38   You're not cruising social media to, like, find things.

01:14:41   You're specifically soliciting inputs.

01:14:42   Well, no, I'm not soliciting them.

01:14:44   For me, it's like, you know, I have a list of people whose opinions that I respect who are still posting stuff.

01:14:53   Or, like, you know, maybe, like, a thing happens.

01:14:55   Like, Apple does a thing.

01:14:57   And I can get some kind of broader takes from the community, right?

01:15:02   Mm-hmm.

01:15:03   Which, even then, like, I don't follow anywhere near as many people as I used to.

01:15:07   And even the three networks combined.

01:15:09   So, like, I don't get as many takes as I used to.

01:15:12   But, yeah, I kind of see a scenario now where I'm just more likely to just stop using these services.

01:15:19   I mean, you know, we'll put a pin in that and see where we are in the future.

01:15:23   But I feel like there is more I could be doing with my life than reading threads.

01:15:27   Like, I feel like I could do things that are a little more beneficial to me, a little more beneficial to my work, more beneficial to my family, even on my phone.

01:15:38   I'm not even talking about, like, putting my phone down.

01:15:40   Like, that's one thing.

01:15:41   Right, right.

01:15:42   Like, I'm not talking about that.

01:15:43   I'm saying, like, if I have 10 minutes with my iPhone, I could do something which is better than keep refreshing a social network.

01:15:53   Yeah.

01:15:54   And I'm not saying that that is how everyone should live their lives.

01:15:57   Like, this is not like I'm standing on this soapbox and, like, encouraging everyone to follow me.

01:16:01   I'm just saying, like, this is what I think is best for me right now.

01:16:06   And so I'm trying to do it.

01:16:08   And it's reminding me, like, of the other times in which I've done similar-ish kinds of things, whether it's, you know, like, I left Twitter for a month, like, years and years ago to see what that would be like.

01:16:19   And it was always intended to just be a month.

01:16:21   When I left Twitter, I just was not going to join any network.

01:16:26   And I'm always surprised, like, how easy it is to actually do these things.

01:16:31   I don't know if I'm spending less time, really, using these services, but it's the times in which I'm doing them.

01:16:39   It's like it is a concerted thing where it's like, great.

01:16:42   Yeah.

01:16:43   I want to check the news now.

01:16:46   So I'm going to grab my work phone and I'm going to open Blue Sky.

01:16:51   I'm going to check that.

01:16:52   I'm going to open RSS.

01:16:54   I'm going to check that.

01:16:55   It's like it's becoming part of my flow.

01:16:57   And, like, I would love to get it to the point of, like, how I check RSS now, which is, like, I check RSS, like, a couple of times a week.

01:17:05   And I would like to maybe get social media to the point where, like, I'm checking it once a day or maybe once every two days and just, like, you know, scan through what's going on and go with it that way.

01:17:18   But, yeah, I will follow up on this work phone, night phone, day phone, personal phone scenario that I've got going on because there is more to it, but it's too new.

01:17:29   I'm intrigued about what you're doing.

01:17:30   I love a good physical separation of tasks.

01:17:33   I'll be quite interested to hear what you're up to there.

01:17:36   But, yeah, I was just smiling when you were saying, like, trying to get it down to, like, every other day.

01:17:41   And I was thinking, like, oh, yeah, that might be right.

01:17:42   And the thing from How to Win Friends and Influence People just popped into my head of, like, there's no correspondence that can't wait a few days, right?

01:17:49   It's like there's no social media that can't wait a few days.

01:17:52   Like, if you can do that, I think that would be good.

01:17:54   And even just your comment about, like, you're not being a professional takesman on social media also just makes me think about, like, why are we in this situation in the first place is a little bit like, well, also just these kinds of environments you should expect over time that they just become more optimized.

01:18:14   People don't think of it this way, but it's like being on any social network is a kind of environment under which there's evolutionary pressure.

01:18:22   And so, like, you rewind the clock back at the start and it's like, oh, people could be successful and popular on social networks and gain an audience without having to be optimized for that task.

01:18:37   But as time goes on, it's like, oh, the people who are optimized for that task, where it's like the thing that they're trying to do is growing an audience on the social network, right?

01:18:48   That's the primary thing.

01:18:50   And, like, the content is secondary.

01:18:52   Those people are going to start slowly outcompeting everybody else who is less optimized in some ways.

01:18:58   Then it does become very quickly the thing to recognize of, like, oh, if I'm not here to do the thing that this environment demands, it also really just changes the incentives in a whole lot of ways.

01:19:11   I think that's also, like, a kind of background for, like, why do you start feeling like you're not here to be a professional takesman because, like, you're competing with all of the people who that is the only thing they're here to do is, like, be seen and, like, grow on the network itself and everything else is secondary.

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01:21:12   I feel like the email gods are shining on me right now, Gray.

01:21:20   Yeah, why are the email gods shining on you?

01:21:23   Listen to this show now that I've moved to Apple Mail, right?

01:21:27   Like, I've been, like, transitioning away to Apple Mail.

01:21:30   It's, like, getting rid of Spark on my personal devices because removing email from my home screen, checking it less, so I just use Apple Mail.

01:21:37   When I decided to do that, Apple were like, great, here's categorization.

01:21:42   Literally the only thing that you liked about Spark.

01:21:44   It's, like, fantastic, right?

01:21:46   So now I have email categorization.

01:21:48   But then it's like, oh, man, but it's not on the iPad or the Mac.

01:21:51   And, like, here you go.

01:21:51   It's on the iPad or the Mac.

01:21:53   Something has happened which is making me think that, at this point, someone is listening at Apple Mail and helping me out.

01:22:02   Oh, yeah.

01:22:03   There is now a setting in iOS 18.4 where, when you archive an email message,

01:22:12   you can choose whether you want it to show your next email or not.

01:22:17   Ah, your big complaints.

01:22:20   The only thing I have said consistently about Apple Mail is the reason I can never use it, like, on all my devices.

01:22:27   This is worse on bigger screen devices.

01:22:29   On the iPhone, it's easier to deal with, but on bigger screen devices because it just will show you the next email on the column because you always have the preview view open, right?

01:22:38   But now they've just added this setting, like, all of a sudden.

01:22:41   This is incredible.

01:22:42   So now I'm using Apple Mail everywhere.

01:22:45   I'm using it on my iPad, on my iPhone, and on my Mac just a couple of times a day.

01:22:50   It's wonderful.

01:22:52   I saw the categorization come into the Mac version, which I was also very happy about because it's like, oh, yeah, I've always just used mail.

01:22:59   And I was weirdly finding myself often preferring to do email on my phone, which I just feel like is the worst of all possible places to actually try to do email.

01:23:08   Because, like, you don't have a keyboard.

01:23:10   Everything is really small.

01:23:11   But I was really liking the categorization and the AI summary stuff.

01:23:14   It's like, oh, this is great.

01:23:16   And so when I saw it roll out on the Mac, like, you were the first person I thought of.

01:23:19   I was like, ah, Mike must be so happy.

01:23:21   So what I want to know is this new setting, which is, like, delete or move message action, view next message, or don't select a message.

01:23:29   What is your preferred option here?

01:23:32   What is the way that you want it to be?

01:23:33   You want it to be don't select a message?

01:23:35   Yeah, if I archive an email, I'm not saying give me more, please.

01:23:39   Just because I've done something to one email doesn't mean I now want to do something to another email until all the emails are gone.

01:23:46   Okay, so I just flipped that on my phone and I just gave it a try.

01:23:49   And I think you are entirely correct.

01:23:50   This is obviously the best thing.

01:23:52   So it just, like, jumps back to the whole list.

01:23:55   That's what it's doing.

01:23:56   It's not putting you in the next email.

01:23:58   Right.

01:23:59   Okay.

01:23:59   Immediately sold.

01:24:00   That is obviously the correct behavior.

01:24:02   That is the right way to go.

01:24:04   I mean, there was a time, right, where it must have made sense to people that you would do all your email until it was done.

01:24:09   In box zero, you know what I'm saying?

01:24:11   You just do all your email until it's done.

01:24:12   But that's not how I live my life.

01:24:14   So using the Mac version of Mail now, there's a couple of things that I find to be peculiar.

01:24:20   So maybe I'm going to say them here and we'll see what happens.

01:24:22   One, which is the Mac version of the Mail app doesn't group messages like the iOS version does.

01:24:33   So, like, there's a new thing that I really like.

01:24:35   You've got the same sender.

01:24:36   It groups all those emails into the same thing.

01:24:38   And you tap them and you get another list.

01:24:39   I actually think that's, like, a really great way of just keeping the inbox clean.

01:24:42   Don't know why it doesn't do this.

01:24:44   And the other thing is, right, so I open an email, right?

01:24:48   I press Command-R for reply.

01:24:51   Obvious, right?

01:24:52   Obvious keyboard shortcut.

01:24:53   Type my email.

01:24:56   And I want to send it.

01:24:57   Now, to me, the obvious keyboard shortcut to send something would be Command-Return.

01:25:05   Sending a message, you press Return, but obviously that won't work on an email.

01:25:09   So you press Command-Return.

01:25:11   The keyboard shortcut for sending an email is Command-Shift-D.

01:25:16   Yeah.

01:25:17   What is that?

01:25:18   It feels like they just took a dartboard and had three darts.

01:25:24   What is the D for Dend?

01:25:26   Why is D?

01:25:27   Okay.

01:25:27   Dispatch?

01:25:28   This is one that, like, I've used mail for so long, right?

01:25:31   This is one that's really funny.

01:25:32   It's like, I don't even really think about that.

01:25:34   But that is obviously crazy.

01:25:35   And in my head, it is Command-Shift-D.

01:25:38   And my brain is always going, yeah, it's D because it's at the end of send.

01:25:43   So, like, you're done with the email.

01:25:44   So, Shift is for the S.

01:25:46   Like, okay, so here's how it works.

01:25:48   Command, obviously, because it's a command.

01:25:50   Shift.

01:25:52   Shift is for you're super sure that you want to send this message, right?

01:25:58   That's how that keyboard shortcut works.

01:26:00   It's Command-Shift-B-Super-Sure.

01:26:03   There are two keys to launch the nuclear missile, right?

01:26:07   And it's like, we're going to hit Command and Shift keys.

01:26:09   And then D is for the dispatch.

01:26:12   Like, truly insane keyboard shortcut.

01:26:16   You're saying it now.

01:26:17   I completely agree with you.

01:26:19   But I do feel like I've had that bit of a hostage situation where I've used this for so long.

01:26:23   I'm like, no, no, no.

01:26:24   This is great, right?

01:26:25   Because it's like, I do want to make sure I have to hold down three buttons to send an email.

01:26:29   Because it's like, don't want to accidentally send an email that you don't want to send.

01:26:33   But it's like, correct.

01:26:34   It shouldn't be that.

01:26:35   But yeah, in my head, it's totally Command-Shift-Be-Super-Sure.

01:26:38   You want to send the message.

01:26:40   Like, I'm looking at the mail user guide on my Mac right now for the keyboard shortcuts.

01:26:46   And there are a bunch of Shift-Command shortcuts.

01:26:48   But to me, it makes sense.

01:26:50   So like, if you want to reply, it's Command-R.

01:26:52   If you want to reply all, Shift-Command-R.

01:26:55   That makes perfect sense.

01:26:56   And then similarly, if you want to forward, well, no, yeah, forward is Shift-Command-F would be fine, right?

01:27:01   Like, I understand, you know, you'd have to do that.

01:27:04   And then like, you know, open a new email, Command-N, obviously.

01:27:08   Open a new mail viewer window.

01:27:11   I don't even know what that means.

01:27:12   Option-Command-N.

01:27:13   I guess I sort of open a new mail, like, window of the whole mail app, I guess.

01:27:16   Okay.

01:27:17   I've never done that in a million years of using a Mac.

01:27:20   Didn't know that was a thing.

01:27:21   Okay, now I can have two mails.

01:27:23   But yeah, look, send emails, Shift-Command-D.

01:27:26   I don't understand, like, none of it.

01:27:28   I don't understand none of the reasons that this is happening.

01:27:31   Why did they make that decision?

01:27:33   My head has some kind of long internalized, but never fully articulated,

01:27:40   reasoning for when do you use the different modifier keys on a command on Mac.

01:27:47   No, I agree with you.

01:27:48   It's like, oh, but there's so much that just, like, doesn't really line up, right?

01:27:51   Yes, it's like, there are reasons, I'm sure, in ancient historic text of in which you would

01:27:57   use Shift, which you would use Option.

01:27:59   I don't think sending the email, which is arguably the most important thing you could do.

01:28:04   The most primary thing that this is doing, yeah.

01:28:06   Should be under a Shift command.

01:28:09   Alt, I've always really liked, because I feel like Alt does make sense very often.

01:28:13   It's like, even the little picture is like, oh, there's a path, and you're taking the alternate

01:28:16   path.

01:28:16   Yeah.

01:28:17   And it feels like Alt always comes up of like, oh, you're doing a slightly different version

01:28:21   of the main thing, right?

01:28:23   Like, that's what it is.

01:28:25   It's like, but what is Shift and Control?

01:28:29   Is there some kind of internal logic about what Shift and Control should be?

01:28:33   Like, I'm thinking about, right?

01:28:34   It's like Command Shift, Command Option, Command Troll.

01:28:37   You always have Command, but when are you using a modifier on the command, right?

01:28:41   Like, you're right.

01:28:42   There's got to be some document that's like, here's how you're supposed to do this.

01:28:46   But after you keep layering it up years and years and years, you end up with some kind

01:28:50   of like, crazy, inconsistent system, and that is where we do end up with like, Command Shift

01:28:55   D for send a message on email.

01:28:58   It's not like Command Return is reserved for something else.

01:29:05   It is, though, right?

01:29:07   Wait, so...

01:29:08   No.

01:29:08   No, no.

01:29:09   It's not doing it.

01:29:11   It does.

01:29:11   No, when I open an email message and I hit Command Return, it just goes, boonk.

01:29:15   If it's what it's meant to do, it's give me an error sound.

01:29:17   Mike, I can tell you what the Command Return does.

01:29:20   If you click once on a message in the list in Mail and then you press Command Return, it

01:29:26   opens that message in a new window.

01:29:29   That's what Command Return does.

01:29:31   Oh, yeah.

01:29:32   No, that makes sense.

01:29:32   What are you doing here?

01:29:34   What is it doing?

01:29:35   That's not in the keyboard shortcuts in Mail on Mac in the user guide.

01:29:39   It's a hidden shortcut.

01:29:40   This has got to be some holdover from back when Mail had like the super duper old fashioned

01:29:46   like, not the side view list, but like whatever it was.

01:29:49   You'd have like that small list view on the top or something.

01:29:52   I found that recently.

01:29:53   It's use column layout, right?

01:29:56   That's what it is.

01:29:57   Use column layout makes it look like it's an email client from like 1992.

01:30:01   Lotus notes.

01:30:01   It looks like Lotus notes.

01:30:02   Yeah, exactly.

01:30:03   Command O on a message also does the same thing that Command Return does.

01:30:08   Oh, that's good.

01:30:09   That's good.

01:30:09   I mean, I do often want to just open up a message in a window, especially when I'm already

01:30:13   looking at that message.

01:30:14   You should have two keyboard shortcuts for that just in case.

01:30:16   So I want to do two ways to do that.

01:30:17   So this feels like one of those things where like, as you have actually demonstrated for

01:30:24   me that because I haven't used Mail in so long, I'm using it.

01:30:27   I'm like, why is nobody talking about this?

01:30:30   This is madness.

01:30:32   But I guess if you've used it for so long, you just obviously have internalized that D means

01:30:40   sender.

01:30:41   I've internalized it.

01:30:42   Haven't thought about it for forever.

01:30:44   Mike has now come new to Mail and he has a bunch of questions.

01:30:48   Hopefully our like secret ally on the inside of the mail team can hear this.

01:30:55   And maybe since there's two ways to open a message in a new window, take the one that's

01:31:01   command return and actually turn it into send a message.

01:31:04   Maybe we could do that for Mike.