00:00:00 ◼ ► from relay this is upgrade episode 562 for may 5th 2025 today's show is brought to you by oracle
00:00:17 ◼ ► squarespace and delete me my name is mike hurley i'm joined by jason snow hi jason hi mike it's good
00:00:25 ◼ ► to be back good to be back with you and uh happy happy may oh thank you it's gonna be may i'm very
00:00:32 ◼ ► excited for today's episode i've been looking forward to it uh for reasons that i assume most
00:00:37 ◼ ► listeners will understand and we'll get to it a little later on in the show but we don't have
00:00:40 ◼ ► time for that right now because we have a snell talk question comes in from adam who has to say
00:00:46 ◼ ► jason as an e-ink connoisseur would you ever consider an e-ink monitor and i have a link here
00:00:52 ◼ ► jason to the books your friends over at books the books books yeah mirror pro color e-ink
00:01:09 ◼ ► an e-ink monitor in general okay so let's back up sorry to adam but i'm not an e-ink connoisseur
00:01:20 ◼ ► i'm just not you are i'm not this is how the world labels you sometimes when the connoisseurship is
00:01:26 ◼ ► hoisted upon you you must take it i'm not i just want to be clear i just like to read books and e-readers
00:01:31 ◼ ► i have i have people people all the time send me notes saying hey jason i know you review e-readers
00:01:37 ◼ ► what are you going to read review this giant thing that you use a pen to take notes with and it's like
00:01:42 ◼ ► i don't care i i when i get a an e-reader that has a pen option i don't get it when i get sent a review
00:01:49 ◼ ► unit that includes the pen i don't use the pen i'm not interested i'm not i'm only interested in
00:01:54 ◼ ► basically reading books on e-ink uh readers that's it that's where it goes jason with great love of e-readers
00:02:02 ◼ ► comes great responsibility to listen to people talk about e-ink everything that's i think that's what's
00:02:08 ◼ ► going on yep not interested not interested so would i consider an e-ink monitor no um uh no not only are
00:02:16 ◼ ► they expensive and are their frame rates not great and not only are their color reproductions not great
00:02:21 ◼ ► and their contrast not great but uh this this very credulous overly credulous uh verge article that you
00:02:28 ◼ ► put in our show notes that says oh it's got lighting like on a on a kindle so it'll be fine it's like
00:02:33 ◼ ► you know okay they don't have backlight so what lighting is going on here across 25 inches can
00:02:40 ◼ ► that even reach that's that's a very bright front light i don't really want to have to sit in a room
00:02:47 ◼ ► where the where i'm brightly lit from behind in a way that allows me to see my screen because it's
00:02:54 ◼ ► a reflective screen i don't really know what this is for right like i don't know i'll tell you what
00:03:01 ◼ ► it's for i'll tell you what it's for e-ink made a a panel this big and it's that it's that typical
00:03:07 ◼ ► thing i've seen it my entire career which is some manufacturer makes a thing and then there are
00:03:12 ◼ ► companies who will step up and just put it in a product right and nobody asked the question why
00:03:16 ◼ ► the only reason is because we made it so now we'll see if anyone wants to buy it maybe in the long run
00:03:22 ◼ ► this technology could be used in certain products right the idea that you could have a smartphone that
00:03:27 ◼ ► that was as good as today's smartphones in terms of refresh rate and things and resolution and things
00:03:33 ◼ ► like that but it used much less power and it it didn't have reflection issues because it was actually
00:03:39 ◼ ► most of the time being lit by the lighting around you instead of needing a backlight like okay well and
00:03:45 ◼ ► also like this panel could be used in a bunch of places but i don't know if it's a consumer product
00:03:49 ◼ ► like you could write for signage like in in london now all of the bus stops uh a lot of the bus stops
00:03:56 ◼ ► that i've seen recently the newer ones they have an e-ink display showing you the bus times it's like
00:04:02 ◼ ► that's perfect right great that says let's do it and also you can tap through like i have like physical
00:04:08 ◼ ► buttons that you can tap through to see the schedules it's like that is a perfect use of an e-ink display
00:04:13 ◼ ► it's just sitting there it's not drawing any power until somebody needs it i have i have that terminal
00:04:19 ◼ ► that's on my you know on my microwave right now and then before that i had the other e-ink kind of
00:04:24 ◼ ► experiment but again the point there was more it's an ambient device that has that is an interesting
00:04:29 ◼ ► application yeah um and that's a personal not commercial and it's a hobbyist kind of thing but
00:04:34 ◼ ► like in the end it's not about the the screen it's a thing that's enabled by the screen this just seems
00:04:39 ◼ ► like nonsense to me but um you know i'm i'm sure there are i'm sure there are very specific niches
00:04:46 ◼ ► probably not personal as you said it's probably more commercial where these could be used you know
00:04:51 ◼ ► people always talk about like signs in supermarkets and stuff like that there are lots of uses for this
00:04:55 ◼ ► kind of technology that make it interesting but i just don't i just don't see it i i just i mentioned
00:05:00 ◼ ► i need to mention again the um the overly credulous verge story just because the other part of it that
00:05:06 ◼ ► made me chuckle is the conclusion which is i feel like it's okay i'm not trying to be mean here but
00:05:13 ◼ ► this it's so cliched it's like if you're a gamer photo or video editor or someone uses their desktop
00:05:17 ◼ ► monitor for watching tv and movies the mirror pro color isn't for you well that's true that is
00:05:23 ◼ ► objectively true but if you spend your days editing text writing or crunching numbers and spreadsheets
00:05:27 ◼ ► in a space with plenty of light wow okay an ink monitor might be worth considering particularly
00:05:33 ◼ ► if you find yourself frequently dealing with eye strain this is this is too much it's like this is
00:05:38 ◼ ► this is not the kind of product that is for everybody except this little narrow area for whom it is
00:05:44 ◼ ► inappropriate it really is inappropriate for almost everybody unless you have a very specific need
00:05:50 ◼ ► and the in a space with plenty of light and dealing with eye strain and like yeah yeah i'm sure that
00:05:57 ◼ ► the you know 400 people who actually want this product will find it but i also want to read a quote from
00:06:04 ◼ ► this now um this is just i just find this funny the statistics and then the price so the mirror pro
00:06:10 ◼ ► color uses a 3200 by 1800 e-ink kaleido 3 panel that can only display a limited palette of 4096 colors
00:06:19 ◼ ► its refresh capabilities can't match the best lcd or oled screens but books offers four customizable
00:06:38 ◼ ► follow your bliss yeah you know yeah anyway adam sorry we've we've beaten your question to death but
00:06:48 ◼ ► this is good because what adam has provided us and the upgradians with today is the knowledge that jason
00:06:53 ◼ ► likes e-readers he does not like e-ink that is important that is important yeah it's true i like i
00:07:00 ◼ ► like and i like ambient displays which is why i've got like the metric time which is not not an e-ink display
00:07:06 ◼ ► it's like i don't even know what it is it's little teeny tiny leds i think in a yeah in a matrix but
00:07:11 ◼ ► like yeah it it um i'm more into kind of e-readers and ambient uh information than i am like e-ink is a
00:07:19 ◼ ► tech it's an interesting technology but like no i i've never dreamed of having an e-ink monitor and i
00:07:26 ◼ ► don't think anybody should should yeah no don't if you would like to send in a question for us to
00:07:31 ◼ ► answer on a future episode of the show please go to upgradefeedback.com and you can send in your
00:07:48 ◼ ► happy i got lots of great advice it seemed pretty split uh between the two companies that i was
00:07:53 ◼ ► expecting hive and tado uh tado edged ahead um so that is the product that i will be upgrading to but
00:08:01 ◼ ► what i did come to realize in doing a little bit more research is i have a third gen nest thermostat which
00:08:08 ◼ ► is not one of the ones that is being kind of like shut off by the app so we have a little bit more
00:08:15 ◼ ► time to make this decision so we'll still be able to use our nest um as we were but this is again the
00:08:22 ◼ ► point kind of still stands to me that we do need to upgrade because google is it there is only a set
00:08:29 ◼ ► amount of time and google's going to kill off our nest too because they have no desire to support products
00:08:34 ◼ ► in europe and a bunch of upgradians wrote him uh saying that like what's good about tado is they
00:08:40 ◼ ► actually have like a whole system and so they also make smart uh radiator valves like i have here at the
00:08:47 ◼ ► studio and so what i will do so our we have downstairs we actually have underfloor heating and then
00:08:54 ◼ ► upstairs it's all controlled by the boiler so we have radiators so the downstairs heating that's on its own
00:09:00 ◼ ► system it's not going to be connected to this at all um because unfortunately the system that we have
00:09:06 ◼ ► this is all installed by the previous owners um they went with a system that doesn't really tie into
00:09:12 ◼ ► any smart home stuff so it's like whatever it's fine it has an app though and so like we can program it
00:09:17 ◼ ► and whatever yeah i mean my my system i can't i can't replace it comes with its own controller and it's
00:09:23 ◼ ► it's very barely smart and i'm using home bridge to connect it and yeah but the upstairs you know
00:09:28 ◼ ► it's like it's two bedrooms an office and a bathroom and we now have very different temperature needs for
00:09:37 ◼ ► those rooms from now going into the future the nursery would need to be warmer than our bedroom for
00:09:42 ◼ ► example um and they also make these uh the radiator valves and it ties into the whole system together i
00:09:49 ◼ ► thought ah okay that's actually something i can do to make things better because at the moment
00:09:52 ◼ ► when we have to turn the heating on to heat up one room we heat up all the rooms which is like not ideal
00:09:59 ◼ ► um and so we'd be able to kind of balance them out a little bit across each other and do what we
00:10:03 ◼ ► need so that this that's what i'm going to do at some point and uh tato they're a german company and
00:10:09 ◼ ► this is what they do so this was actually as well the the um i found out in europe people that have a
00:10:16 ◼ ► first and second gen nest uh google worked to tato to give them 50 off one of the systems to to replace
00:10:22 ◼ ► that was who they they did that's nice thing with so you get a european option i think if you're using
00:10:27 ◼ ► european heating yes absolutely lesson absolutely because google can't be bothered anymore nope they
00:10:34 ◼ ► don't have enough money they're not big enough they're just not powerful or big enough it is sad
00:10:38 ◼ ► really i feel bad stuff hard times hard times over there so obviously we have a huge lawyer up segment
00:10:43 ◼ ► to do later on today as which means you don't really have enough time for a forward roundup but i wanted
00:10:48 ◼ ► to mention one story which is also kind of like yeah just half just a year uh there's no huh uh i
00:10:55 ◼ ► wanted to bring up the fact that the information is reporting that apple is considering splitting their
00:10:59 ◼ ► iphone lineup into two separate releases one in the fall one in the spring mike i i literally texted
00:11:06 ◼ ► you immediately when i saw this story and i was like mike it's coming true your prediction your your
00:11:11 ◼ ► your prediction is finally coming true two separate rollouts this was a prediction that i made in the
00:11:19 ◼ ► draft of the ages in episode 300 for episode 400 so it was i was very ahead of my time on this one
00:11:28 ◼ ► ahead of your time uh but they're considering this for 2026 if they do this they would do fall 26 and
00:11:34 ◼ ► spring 27 and then fall 2026 you would get the iphone would it be 19 pro yeah pro night night right
00:11:44 ◼ ► what are we on now 16 so be 18 18 18 so you'd get the 18 pro the 18 pro max the 18 air and let's say
00:11:53 ◼ ► the 18 fold right whatever they would call that in fall of 2026 if that's what they have and then
00:12:00 ◼ ► the iphone 18 and the iphone let's just call it the 18e would be in spring of 2027 right apple want to do
00:12:08 ◼ ► this for the obvious reason of the logistical work becomes much easier uh if you're not releasing six
00:12:15 ◼ ► phones at once like six distinct phone models at once um but i've i think they should do this for the
00:12:22 ◼ ► reason i've been saying this you do it for a long time uh i think you get it's it's cleaner to spread
00:12:27 ◼ ► it out you get two distinct kind of like uh marketing beats at different points of the year
00:12:33 ◼ ► why have one iphone event when you could have two exactly exactly i mean you know apple over the years
00:12:40 ◼ ► has done stuff like they might release an se or they might release a color of an iphone but no let's
00:12:46 ◼ ► just actually make it that there will be one in say march and there will be one in september and you
00:12:52 ◼ ► just rely on that samsung has done this for ages ages right like for ages this is when i when i when
00:12:59 ◼ ► i saw samsung were doing this over time is what made me think about it it's like they they release
00:13:04 ◼ ► their like expensive big phones and their foldable phones at one point and then they're like flagship
00:13:09 ◼ ► kind of this is the fun that everybody buys at another time like a different time of the year
00:13:15 ◼ ► they actually do the i think they do the more expensive ones at the beginning and then the kind
00:13:20 ◼ ► of more mainstream ones towards the end of the year but like whatever it doesn't matter um and when i was
00:13:25 ◼ ► thinking about this today about like you know should they do this now would it make sense to i kind
00:13:31 ◼ ► of realized they do not do this to any other product line they don't release like all of the max
00:13:36 ◼ ► at once they spread it out a bit because yeah it makes sense to do that because just logistically
00:13:42 ◼ ► marketing wise product development wise there is a sense to kind of stretching this out a little bit
00:13:48 ◼ ► where you can so i think this makes a lot of sense to do especially if there are six devices they won't
00:13:55 ◼ ► be able to talk about them all in one event anymore like i can't and really give them a fair shake
00:14:02 ◼ ► imagine how much easier it is to make iphones if you have separate production ramps so we just saw this
00:14:12 ◼ ► with the 16e but going even further separate production ramp up required separate finalization
00:14:19 ◼ ► all the steps are off a little bit you're using a lot of the same base technology but you don't have
00:14:25 ◼ ► to ship them all at once it is like you said it is like not shipping every m4 mac on day one
00:14:30 ◼ ► because that would be really really hard for lots of reasons for engineering reasons for marketing
00:14:36 ◼ ► reasons for for factory reasons for part reasons there's so many reasons it would be hard so you
00:14:42 ◼ ► spread it out into two you're giving yourself breathing room as a every aspect of your company
00:14:48 ◼ ► you're getting breathing room and like i said i don't think it makes the iphone message weaker in
00:14:51 ◼ ► fact i think it makes it stronger because you get two punches at an iphone event and the iphone event
00:14:56 ◼ ► is by far the most uh watched apple event so if they do two iphone events i think that benefits
00:15:03 ◼ ► them i think if there's a net benefit there uh on marketing plus literally everything else yep
00:15:09 ◼ ► all right let's take our first break now and then we'll get into this this big chunky segment
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00:16:26 ◼ ► this show and all of relay it's time to lawyer up clunk clunk clunk indeed all right so
00:16:35 ◼ ► uh there's some context around this one we're going to get into it and we're going to talk about all of
00:16:41 ◼ ► this stuff but i think that there are some some table there's table setting to be done so last
00:16:46 ◼ ► wednesday uh in the kind of next event in apple's epic five-year legal dispute apple and epic epic five-year
00:16:54 ◼ ► legal dispute uh judge yvonne gizales rogers made a huge ruling over apple's ability to collect purchases
00:17:02 ◼ ► made outside of applications that are on the app store so in 2021 the judge gave an injunction ordered
00:17:10 ◼ ► an injunction that resulted in apple creating the ability for developers to have one text link to an
00:17:16 ◼ ► external page for purchases that contained no tracking information would display the scare screen
00:17:23 ◼ ► to them what did you call those screens so like this app may kill you this app may kill you this app will
00:17:28 ◼ ► kill you right like danger this app could kill you uh that was a long time ago but scare screens is so
00:17:34 ◼ ► perfect it's just perfect after all of that they would still demand 20 of any subsequent purchases
00:17:39 ◼ ► and you as the developer had to do all of the accounting to work that out for a i think it's
00:17:44 ◼ ► a seven-day period of any purchase that could occur even though you couldn't have any tracking on them
00:17:48 ◼ ► epic went back to the judge and argued that this does not meet with what the judge ordered and
00:17:54 ◼ ► effectively results in no change for apple which we all knew was the case the judge subsequently ordered
00:18:00 ◼ ► further hearings these went incredibly poorly for apple and has resulted in a fiery 80 page opinion
00:18:07 ◼ ► that rules that apple can no longer impose any commission or any fee on purchases that consumers
00:18:14 ◼ ► make outside of an app they cannot place any restrictions on how a link or a button looks to
00:18:20 ◼ ► start a purchase via the web from inside an app and they cannot present any screens or dialogues to
00:18:26 ◼ ► users to discourage and leaving out leaving outside of something that says a user is going to a third
00:18:32 ◼ ► party website essentially the result of this injunction is that now from now from last week but it's
00:18:39 ◼ ► happening now a developer can choose to forego apple's in-app purchase system and the 30 fee
00:18:47 ◼ ► completely all they have to do and i say all but all they have to do is the work to enable a web-based
00:18:53 ◼ ► purchasing system which frankly most large companies have anyway because they don't exist in just one
00:18:59 ◼ ► place but you could be any developer and have this set up with accounts and such and are happy with their
00:19:05 ◼ ► customer leaving app to complete it so me and jason make an app uh we want to charge say like so we
00:19:11 ◼ ► made an app for upgrade plus and we want to charge for it in the previous system even if we collected
00:19:17 ◼ ► payments outside on our own it was fine if we had an ios app we would have to do this via in-app purchase
00:19:23 ◼ ► to be on the app store that no longer needs to be there um and you can't do the purchase inside of the app
00:19:30 ◼ ► but you can have a button that just takes you to a website and you complete the purchase and you're
00:19:36 ◼ ► all done yeah and those urls can't the you you didn't mention it in your bulleted list but the urls
00:19:42 ◼ ► that apple said okay we're gonna we'll let you do it you can link to one url and it has to be static
00:19:48 ◼ ► which is the worst right because what you want to do as a developer is link to the particular
00:19:53 ◼ ► membership plan that they're on or the particular item that they want to purchase or whatever
00:19:59 ◼ ► and none of that was allowed before and in this ruling the judge said you know you can let them
00:20:05 ◼ ► link to whatever they want yep this is pretty huge this is yeah this is pretty huge and just to be clear
00:20:23 ◼ ► my ruling in order to be non you know not be anti-competitive anymore that was her ruling was
00:20:32 ◼ ► yeah was and so and so i don't want to hear it i this is an important point i don't want to hear it
00:20:39 ◼ ► from the people who say oh it's so outrageous judges and regulators and the legal system are all making
00:20:46 ◼ ► free enterprise follow their rules and build products that that that you know that they should
00:20:53 ◼ ► be building and the others they should the judges shouldn't be building it that's outrageous the judge
00:20:59 ◼ ► here let apple implement something that was in line with the with the rules she said this is anti-competitive
00:21:08 ◼ ► here are the reasons why you need to make it competitive she didn't say let me design a system
00:21:14 ◼ ► for you this was three years ago and then it went through the the the court of appeals the circuit court
00:21:21 ◼ ► uh and then it went up to the supreme court and then and and in neither case did those courts say
00:21:28 ◼ ► apple is right about this so they they i mean there were like little details that she gets to into the
00:21:33 ◼ ► ruling but basically all the way through the supreme court they said yep and the day after the supreme
00:21:40 ◼ ► court denied cert which is basically said we're not gonna even take this case right like no it's fine
00:21:45 ◼ ► this is the ruling is fine uh apple had to implement this thing and this is the important point which is
00:21:54 ◼ ► she gave apple the ball and all she said was you design your own system here is what i'm looking for
00:22:01 ◼ ► in terms of being uh not being anti-competitive and and what we know because she details it because there
00:22:08 ◼ ► was more discovery of memos at apple is apple was well aware of what was being asked of them
00:22:23 ◼ ► many senior apple executives said this means we need to do things like allow people to link out and you
00:22:34 ◼ ► know and not have an enormous commission and all of these things and phil schiller in particular and
00:22:40 ◼ ► we'll probably get to that and and they were overruled by other executives inside apple who said no what we
00:22:47 ◼ ► need to do is maximize our revenue in a way and our anti-competitive behavior in a way that has a fig leaf
00:22:56 ◼ ► it looks like it would be competitive but all of the details will be poisoned they decided to go that path
00:23:02 ◼ ► now the way the legal system works is it has come back to the judge in the case because epica said
00:23:09 ◼ ► they're not doing it it's still anti-competitive they the thing that they built 27 of credit card
00:23:17 ◼ ► purchases and a seven seven day tax on any further transactions in the store from somebody coming from
00:23:25 ◼ ► the app this is not what you asked them to do and the judge said it's absolutely not what i asked them
00:23:33 ◼ ► to do and the deal is i gave you a chance to build what i wanted you refuse to build it yep so now you don't
00:23:42 ◼ ► get to build anything and this is this she says this is not a negotiation this is not a second try i gave you
00:23:50 ◼ ► your try you chose to refuse to honor what i ordered you to do so now you don't get to build anything you
00:23:59 ◼ ► just have to turn it all off and that is what we've we've been talking about for a while now that is the
00:24:05 ◼ ► consequence of this incrementalism this malicious compliance is in this case the judge can say i you
00:24:15 ◼ ► only get one swing at it you squandered that swing at it by trying by conspiring to and cooking up fake
00:24:24 ◼ ► reasons and she's got the the the details in order to in order to maintain your your anti-competitive
00:24:31 ◼ ► behavior and so i'm just blasting all your rules away and so as of the next day all of those rules didn't go
00:24:38 ◼ ► to well what about 10 or what about 15 no it's zero and what about the urls no you just can and what
00:24:45 ◼ ► about the scare sheet no it's gone it's not like it's gone beyond a small thing because the i mean this
00:24:53 ◼ ► is the truth she gave apple a chance to comply and actually behave in a in a way of apple's choosing that
00:25:01 ◼ ► fulfilled her desire and apple refused and so they are now reaping what they sow or sowing what they
00:25:09 ◼ ► reap i don't know both there's a lot of reaping and a lot of so going on this and i think as well i think
00:25:14 ◼ ► what's important to note that i mean i don't know exactly i don't know exactly how these things go um but
00:25:21 ◼ ► there is a scenario where you know they did it they did it in a way that the judge wasn't happy and we kind
00:25:29 ◼ ► of go back around again but the difference here is she found the evidence of them trying to get around
00:25:35 ◼ ► it like that's that's the problem here it's not that like you know apple took this and they misunderstood
00:25:40 ◼ ► it and they acted in good faith and and this is what they implemented no like i'll give a quote from the
00:25:47 ◼ ► from the uh the opinion apple despite knowing its obligations there under thwarted the injunction's
00:25:52 ◼ ► goals and continued its anti-competitive conduct solely to maintain its revenue stream remarkably apple
00:25:58 ◼ ► believed that this court would not see through its obvious cover-up so for example the 27 yeah
00:26:09 ◼ ► it's a little like arrested development like what what could a banana cost michael a hundred dollars
00:26:14 ◼ ► um it's like well what is credit card transaction three percent okay we'll just make a 27 instead of 30
00:26:23 ◼ ► and they knew what they were doing they knew that what they were doing was poisoning the entire concept
00:26:28 ◼ ► because because it was not going to save anybody any money to compete with apple's purchases and
00:26:34 ◼ ► therefore you should just stay with apple and then what happens is an app developer came to them and said
00:26:41 ◼ ► i think it was a dating app and said it's it's like it's not even three percent it's like more than four
00:26:48 ◼ ► percent so we're going to lose money if we go outside the store and apple's internal reaction
00:26:53 ◼ ► was good good it's even it's working even better than we thought but what they said to the judge was
00:27:00 ◼ ► oh no 27 is totally a scientific number that we arrived at by scientific means it just we calculate
00:27:07 ◼ ► up all our expenses and the cost of our apis and like 27 is what we have to we just have to charge that
00:27:14 ◼ ► but she's got their receipts it it that's not what it is it's they're doing i mean mike i don't know if
00:27:20 ◼ ► it struck you but as i read the entire judgment which i did i just kept shaking my head and thinking
00:27:27 ◼ ► it's exactly what we thought it was yeah exactly we knew all of this but but it's worse to see it in
00:27:34 ◼ ► black and white like it's worse that way it it is and if you're a judge you know we we can look back
00:27:40 ◼ ► with our you know with our popcorn and be like oh i knew it i knew those guys just made up that number
00:27:46 ◼ ► but if you're the judge and you're saying you need to do this thing and they're like no we don't want
00:27:52 ◼ ► to we're gonna make we're gonna i mean this is why uh she forwarded apple and one of their executives
00:27:58 ◼ ► for criminal contempt yes like it's hard not to say that apple is absolutely in contempt of this court
00:28:04 ◼ ► acting in contempt of court because they literally made a mockery of her instructions which were to
00:28:11 ◼ ► eliminate anti-competitive behavior by creating a new anti-competitive system and so is it any wonder
00:28:18 ◼ ► that at the end of the day the judge said forget about it it was it was more anti-competitive because
00:28:24 ◼ ► like in a scenario based on the fact that somebody would have to then incur all the additional costs of
00:28:29 ◼ ► the accounting like if i as a customer went to this link right and like signed up for an account but
00:28:36 ◼ ► didn't pay if i then went back on the web within three days apple wants that money then that's not how
00:28:42 ◼ ► it works in the app store like if i go to you know look at netflix and i'm like no i don't worry
00:28:49 ◼ ► about it and then three days later go you know what i do want it and go to the web browser and sign up
00:28:54 ◼ ► netflix don't have to give apple any money right and just to be clear because i'm seeing some
00:28:58 ◼ ► comments about um well apple got three years where they got to rake in more money and that's like ha
00:29:03 ◼ ► ha look what they did okay but here's the thing apple was given an opportunity to build a reasonable
00:29:11 ◼ ► proposal yes that would include more language that would scare you that would include them taking a
00:29:19 ◼ ► percentage of uh transactions outside their store maybe not the seven day auditing whatever but maybe
00:29:27 ◼ ► ten percent or something and by foregoing that they got there two or three years in the sun or whatever
00:29:34 ◼ ► but the judge now is saying you can take nothing yeah ever there was there was so was that a good move
00:29:39 ◼ ► in which you could have ten percent five percent three percent i mean this probably wouldn't work but
00:29:45 ◼ ► a world where you could be like it has to be apple pay right so you still get a little bit or like
00:29:49 ◼ ► whatever that wouldn't you know you get my point there are like lots of different things you could
00:29:52 ◼ ► have tried but now you have zero percent of nothing so you've got right all all you had to do was build
00:29:59 ◼ ► a system that was arguably competitive right so if if apple said and and it's not like i know people
00:30:06 ◼ ► have said oh well what if they did you know five percent they would feel pressure to compete it's like
00:30:10 ◼ ► yeah but they got the home field advantage they've got it's so easy you've already got your credit card at
00:30:14 ◼ ► apple all of that they could even make make it clear in their rules that the the outside link and
00:30:21 ◼ ► the in-app purchase link had to be on the same screen right they could they could make a bunch of rules
00:30:26 ◼ ► like that and then they could say you know we're gonna take ten percent or whatever and then and then
00:30:34 ◼ ► epic might complain and other companies might complain but what apple would i think apple would have
00:30:39 ◼ ► a strong argument to say look our system is really easy it's already there it's convenient it's it's
00:30:43 ◼ ► secure people trust apple for that you pay ten percent but if you don't you you're you're doing
00:30:49 ◼ ► what again we've we just heard you're you're doing what four percent five percent so and we're giving
00:30:54 ◼ ► the customer the choice right they said we're giving customers the choice and you can choose yeah
00:30:58 ◼ ► they could do 10 they could do 15 they could do 20 i mean you got to see what the judge might say
00:31:03 ◼ ► about that but like all you want to do is create an area where there's a competitive opportunity
00:31:09 ◼ ► to not use what apple forces you and see if that competitive system is more of a benefit and then
00:31:16 ◼ ► because what judge uh what the judge in this case judge rogers or guns gonzalez rogers said is
00:31:23 ◼ ► competitive make it competitive she did not say apple can't compete she said make it competitive but
00:31:32 ◼ ► apple didn't choose to build a competitive framework they chose a non-competitive framework and again
00:31:38 ◼ ► if i were her i would be furious and she's furious and i and we're not lawyers i know that ben thompson
00:31:46 ◼ ► pointed out that there's there's some you know questions about like is this takings and all of that
00:31:50 ◼ ► although i feel like apple stands apple standing is greatly decreased because they are acting in
00:31:57 ◼ ► contempt right like they got their shot at it um so it strikes me that this is going to be a rough one
00:32:03 ◼ ► for them it's not impossible they said they're going to appeal but you know even tim cook the appeal was
00:32:08 ◼ ► filed this morning yeah and and tim cook you know basically said but you never know what might happen
00:32:14 ◼ ► and and it's in effect now that's the other thing is that this first round happened with appeals but i
00:32:19 ◼ ► believe this is all just in effect they had to do it the next day because we're at the end of that
00:32:24 ◼ ► process now i mean i i would be really surprised if their appeal worked like they might be able to gain
00:32:32 ◼ ► some ground back i don't know but there is also this thing that like i mean even as i'm saying it i'm
00:32:39 ◼ ► like no but like it does it feel like the genie's out of the bottle on this one but no apple doesn't care
00:32:43 ◼ ► they would just go back we know this like we can see this here's what i'll say just a quick aside
00:32:49 ◼ ► actually about saying about seeing this i can't believe that all of this information was just written
00:32:53 ◼ ► down it is kind of amazing right haven't these executives learned by now but here's the thing i
00:32:58 ◼ ► don't know it may be that they were ordered to keep notes of the meetings involving compliance with
00:33:03 ◼ ► the orders right yeah yes i mean it's it's super damning and and you're in a you're you're literally in
00:33:11 ◼ ► meetings where you're saying how do we scheme to get around the judge and people and and people are
00:33:16 ◼ ► taking notes like what are you what are you doing yeah i just feel like at this point it it surprises
00:33:24 ◼ ► me i mean maybe they decided this was the route they wanted to go down because you know google lost its
00:33:29 ◼ ► case like lost its case and continues to lose lots of its cases because they they kind of instituted
00:33:36 ◼ ► this system of like let's not write this down and that actually came back to bite them big time so maybe
00:33:41 ◼ ► is the right call to you know actually the right call is just not to it's just don't do anything
00:33:48 ◼ ► anti-competitive like maybe that's just the right call just be competitive so speaking of that
00:33:56 ◼ ► let's talk about phil shiller yeah because phil shiller comes off pretty well in this document
00:34:01 ◼ ► not like a hundred percent like but but here's the point phil shiller first off did the work and
00:34:09 ◼ ► there's there's a very strong indication from the judge that she is not impressed by other apple
00:34:14 ◼ ► executives who have lots of opinions about her ruling but aren't but did not read it and we're not at the
00:34:20 ◼ ► trial yeah uh whereas phil shiller was at the trial and clearly she says read every word of the judgment
00:34:28 ◼ ► and and expresses awareness of what is being asked and so when all of these these jokers are saying oh
00:34:37 ◼ ► well let's just do 27 and let's avoid this and let's avoid that phil shiller rolls in and and and phil
00:34:43 ◼ ► shiller he's a true believer he's a lifer he is not some malcontent uh revolutionary inside apple he
00:34:52 ◼ ► is a made man at apple and he says this outside commission thing we can't do it we can't do it
00:35:00 ◼ ► it's it's a bad idea the judge is is clear about what she wants here we can't do it and luca maestri and
00:35:09 ◼ ► the finance team basically says to tim cook don't listen to phil just do this thing and then tim
00:35:17 ◼ ► cook says i'm going with what luca says and not the guy who was our guy at the trial who knows every
00:35:23 ◼ ► detail of it who is phil shiller apple fellow and very senior person at apple still phil shiller i'm
00:35:29 ◼ ► going to go with the money man and as the judge wrote cook chose poorly so i was reading as a john
00:35:39 ◼ ► voye's at max story used to be a lawyer right and so like you know he wrote a good piece about this
00:35:44 ◼ ► they also spoke about on app stories i really enjoyed it and something i didn't understand that john
00:35:49 ◼ ► explained is like typically a company a large company they will appoint an executive specifically to go and
00:35:57 ◼ ► listen like yes that's the point you're going and you're listening that person was phil shiller so
00:36:03 ◼ ► he was appointed as the person to go listen and then they didn't listen to him so why why why even
00:36:10 ◼ ► have him like how much money did did that cost to send phil and like you know in his time like time for
00:36:17 ◼ ► money for his time right which must be very expensive to have him go and sit in that courtroom and listen
00:36:23 ◼ ► yeah for hours and hours and hours and hours right and then he was in this situation he's like we
00:36:28 ◼ ► shouldn't do this again like someone who has effectively before now ran the app store for a decade who has
00:36:37 ◼ ► sat there and not wanted to change these fees right and has done everything possible over this last 10
00:36:44 ◼ ► years or however long to hold on to that 30 percent he is the person in theory would least be likely to
00:36:53 ◼ ► say let's get rid of this because he could have gotten rid of it at any point before now and he's like we
00:36:58 ◼ ► shouldn't do this because he knows it's now a question of following a judge's orders it's the law yes we are
00:37:08 ◼ ► saying and and i mean i'm gonna boil it down there's a meeting where the guy who went to the trial says
00:37:14 ◼ ► the law says we have to do x and then off in the corner the money men say oh let's not do x let's
00:37:23 ◼ ► let's concoct a scheme to avoid x let's break the law yes and and phil schiller says whoa whoa whoa whoa
00:37:33 ◼ ► i'm as true a believer as anyone i want us to get our money i believed in the 30 percent i i believe
00:37:39 ◼ ► it's still the 15 for the small developers we did that but the 30 it's our bread and butter we have all
00:37:45 ◼ ► this but we can't break the law this is the law so we need to find the right approach that benefits us
00:37:53 ◼ ► the most that follows the law and the money men are like i think we should break the law i think we should
00:37:59 ◼ ► concoct a scheme to break the law instead and tim cook said let's do that let's break the law
00:38:05 ◼ ► let's ignore the judge's wish let's ignore the guy we sent our expert phil who's been around longer
00:38:11 ◼ ► than anybody at this point in the senior ranks let's ignore him who's saying you need to follow the law
00:38:17 ◼ ► and let's break the law and that and that's why the judge says that was a bad decision by tim cook that
00:38:23 ◼ ► that was a that was a a bad decision you are defying a judge because and i think this is the way we have
00:38:30 ◼ ► to say this apple executives at least some of them not phil schiller apple executives think they're above
00:38:38 ◼ ► the law that's it that's the answer they think they're above the law and here's the thing that kills me
00:38:48 ◼ ► it's everything we thought they thought yeah they've behaved in the last five or ten years
00:38:53 ◼ ► like they're above the law that they have contempt for everyone including judges including regulators
00:39:01 ◼ ► and including their own third-party developers and this ruling just says yep that they are who you thought
00:39:09 ◼ ► they were and like saying about breaking the law it is now being considered that one of those people
00:39:15 ◼ ► actually also lied in court right like that they lied in court and it was a simple i mean it's very
00:39:22 ◼ ► simple like the lie was you know they the judge that's how they get you yeah asked him like you know
00:39:27 ◼ ► did you have any idea about the about the you know when did you come up with this idea of 27 and they
00:39:33 ◼ ► set a date or whatever it's like you didn't have it before then it's like nope this is the first time
00:39:37 ◼ ► time we ever spoken about it but this meeting that jason's talking about happened months before
00:39:41 ◼ ► long chain of events involving them concocting the scheme and then reverse engineering in a way you
00:39:47 ◼ ► just couldn't couldn't get that wrong like you just because you would also in theory be prepared right
00:39:53 ◼ ► like you would also have your meeting notes and and so this is why this i think the whole thing and
00:39:59 ◼ ► especially this is now being kicked up to the district attorney for north car at north north north
00:40:04 ◼ ► northern california the u.s attorney for because for criminal oh yeah yeah so it's the it's the u.s
00:40:09 ◼ ► attorney in san francisco it got kicked there to for for criminal contempt which is they'll the that
00:40:15 ◼ ► attorney will decide if they want to pursue that or not and given the current uh state of the justice
00:40:20 ◼ ► department and the trump administration and all that who knows whether they they want to uh you know
00:40:24 ◼ ► any corporate crime is worth prosecuting to them or not i don't know i'm sure that donald trump
00:40:30 ◼ ► would get a call from tim cook if they tried to prosecute one of their guys but um but still i
00:40:36 ◼ ► mean the point is made that they've been referred to the u.s attorney because the judge feels that
00:40:42 ◼ ► they've committed criminal contempt in a in a case that's not great that's not great i should also say
00:40:47 ◼ ► because i saw there was a particularly uh disturbing piece last week on a kind of a penny ante apple website
00:40:54 ◼ ► that is embarrassing and is even more embarrassing now and i'm not going to even mention it where they
00:41:00 ◼ ► said something derogatory about the judge in this case they have also in the past said that about the
00:41:06 ◼ ► regulator in the eu it's uh it's sexist but i just want to point out how do you get that job
00:41:14 ◼ ► you got to get nominated by the president of the united states and confirmed by the senate
00:41:19 ◼ ► and this judge was concerned confirmed by the senate like like 80 to 15 or something like this is not a
00:41:29 ◼ ► rando judge that rolled in off the street this is a a federal district court judge doing all of this
00:41:40 ◼ ► so i i i think it shows you what dire straits were in that a bunch of people who are who are
00:41:46 ◼ ► reflexive apple boosters and propagandists have to resort to insulting a distinguished judge because
00:41:56 ◼ ► they got nothing left they got nothing left i don't understand like obviously i love apple products and i
00:42:04 ◼ ► love in like the idea of the company and have done for 20 years or whatever um but most of all like i
00:42:12 ◼ ► care about the products but like i just i don't understand how at this point you feel the need to defend them
00:42:18 ◼ ► in this like why do you anyone why would anyone feel the need to defend apple in this scenario
00:42:26 ◼ ► beggars belief to me anytime anybody wants to come to me and say oh you shouldn't say those things
00:42:32 ◼ ► about apple they're really just making a good decision because of this and that i'm just going
00:42:36 ◼ ► to point to phil shiller do you think phil shiller is against apple phil shiller is i'm going to say it
00:42:42 ◼ ► again a true believer and a lifer an apple lifer and a true believer there is nobody more in tune with
00:42:51 ◼ ► apple and also with steve jobs and what he believed about apple than phil shiller number one guy and he's
00:42:58 ◼ ► waving his hands saying no no no no no no no don't do this and they did it anyway so like i don't want
00:43:05 ◼ ► to hear about it phil shiller was right don't break don't do crimes okay it's not hard it's not hard
00:43:13 ◼ ► and they went the other way let's talk about the developer response um as i expected this is a big
00:43:21 ◼ ► topic so do developer response and then then we'll get into what i'm labeling as the further ramifications
00:43:27 ◼ ► the aftermath for the aftermath of this uh i want to read a little bit from underscore david smith who
00:43:34 ◼ ► posted on uh mastodon about this and i think the underscore is so perfect because like in even like
00:43:40 ◼ ► even in private conversations underscore says to me the same stuff that he says here which is like
00:43:47 ◼ ► i am very happy to and have been very happy to give apple the you know to be in the apple ecosystem
00:43:55 ◼ ► to play by the rules like it doesn't bother him right but i want to read this thing from him on mastodon
00:44:01 ◼ ► here saying that reading this it is clear that the highest levels we are viewed developers we are viewed
00:44:07 ◼ ► as a resource to be extracted from not a customer to be served it feels like apple got turned around here
00:44:13 ◼ ► and stopped trying to grow satisfaction with developers because you know he's saying that
00:44:19 ◼ ► like and i'll read a little bit more to kind of put a bit more context his words over the last 17 years
00:44:24 ◼ ► i paid apple an eye-watering large sum of money for the services they provide me and i don't begrudge
00:44:28 ◼ ► them at all like because someone like underscore the life that he has is based upon the fact that apple gave
00:44:35 ◼ ► the tools that they gave right but i think that there has been um a hopeful what it was originally
00:44:44 ◼ ► an implicit understanding and a hopeful understanding as time has gone on that no matter what apple do
00:44:50 ◼ ► at their core they do still value the developer but it feels like at this point they have gotten
00:44:58 ◼ ► far enough away from that that it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like that anymore as he says they got
00:45:05 ◼ ► turned around and stopped trying to grow satisfaction with developers yeah it is um i think the i think
00:45:14 ◼ ► it's broader than developers too because there's a tendency for people to sort of say well boohoo developers
00:45:18 ◼ ► right like you chose this path and whatever and i think that's wrong but i will also say
00:45:23 ◼ ► hurts consumers yes fundamentally it's a consumer harm because we're not saying we're really not saying you
00:45:32 ◼ ► know what we need is apple to take the 30 away so that uh they can come in with alternate payments at four
00:45:40 ◼ ► or five percent six percent whatever their processing fees are and then the developers just take all the money
00:45:46 ◼ ► away that could happen but the other argument is that it makes more price competition because
00:45:54 ◼ ► you've eliminated an enormous amount of overhead and that you will now have price competition
00:46:00 ◼ ► where they could charge less maybe not all that less and they are more productive you could also say that
00:46:07 ◼ ► it makes it easier for developers to be successful at the app store but i i do think that there is a
00:46:14 ◼ ► fundamental kind of i keep using this word contempt that that parts of apple feel and i also want to
00:46:20 ◼ ► be clear i know people in the developer relations group they really there are parts of apple that
00:46:25 ◼ ► really do love and care about developers and want to do right by developers and i'm going to return now
00:46:31 ◼ ► to that image of phil schiller in a meeting saying we need to follow the law and i'm going to continue to
00:46:36 ◼ ► to call them the money men in the corner lucca maestri and his cadre of financial uh group
00:47:09 ◼ ► a lot of different aspects including the money but not limited to the money and this is a case where
00:47:22 ◼ ► and the judge says don't take that you're like well what if i do a look over there and i take it
00:47:34 ◼ ► don't take this marshmallow like nope they they took the marshmallow expensive marshmallow
00:47:40 ◼ ► so very the it's already started right so the the rules had to be changed immediately and they were
00:47:49 ◼ ► basically as immediately as they could be changed and you're already seeing a couple of key players
00:47:55 ◼ ► maybe the most aggrieved ready to go so patreon right out of the gate so this will allow again if
00:48:04 ◼ ► you're a caution mind back a few months uh apple put its uh uh thumb on patreon and insisted that patreon
00:48:13 ◼ ► take a give apple 30 of any subscription that was signed up for in the app and also demanded that
00:48:21 ◼ ► everybody had to have the ability to sign up in the app right so it wasn't even like a an individual
00:48:26 ◼ ► creator could choose whether or not someone could sign up in the patreon app it was like that one-two
00:48:30 ◼ ► punch well they're now not going to do this again so they've gone back on it again which is great
00:48:35 ◼ ► so creators will now be able to be in the patreon app and accept payments from the ios app by going
00:48:41 ◼ ► outside right so that's how it's working so it's the same for everything you select subscribe in the
00:48:46 ◼ ► app you'll tap it you'll go out to a website something i don't know but i think i know the
00:48:50 ◼ ► answer to is it doesn't you can't do this in safari view controller but it just it opens a website i
00:48:56 ◼ ► i don't know the answer to that question um i would like to well i would i would love it if
00:49:01 ◼ ► it could just open a safari view controller window right within the apps you know actually even being
00:49:06 ◼ ► kicked out to another app but ultimately i don't really think it matters i don't think customers will
00:49:10 ◼ ► care um so this will this now means that apple will no longer be forcing themselves into the
00:49:18 ◼ ► process and taking money from creators which i think is fantastic i'm so happy about this
00:49:29 ◼ ► and it's now shipping so this one's in the store like federico had some screenshots like you do it
00:49:36 ◼ ► right you press a button it's like an actual button unbelievably and it takes you out to it opens safari
00:49:43 ◼ ► so i think that might be the route it has to do because i'm sure spotify yes push any line they
00:49:48 ◼ ► could push yeah no you have to go out to safari right um although just come on but anyway
00:49:54 ◼ ► um i'll take what i can get at this point or by the way not me i won't take anything because
00:49:59 ◼ ► this is just in the us which i'll just quick diversion come on apple like i mean i know you
00:50:06 ◼ ► won't but just like give it up just give it up like you've just i won't step into the ramifications
00:50:13 ◼ ► point yeah we'll get there in a minute uh stripe has already published a huge set of documentation to
00:50:18 ◼ ► help developers implement payment processing of their own and epic epic have said that they want
00:50:24 ◼ ► to bring fortnite back there's been a lot of question about if they can can or cannot do that
00:50:31 ◼ ► i don't think that epic would say that unless they actually had a developer account like epic have
00:50:37 ◼ ► developer accounts outside of america um because otherwise they couldn't publish the epic game store in
00:50:45 ◼ ► europe yeah but that's because they were they were apple was forced to allow that and i don't see any sign
00:50:51 ◼ ► that that the judge in this case has forced apple to allow epic to right come back to the store in the
00:50:57 ◼ ► u.s after violating the epic says a lot of things wait but we also don't know that apple haven't said
00:51:03 ◼ ► yes you can have your account back like we don't know the answer to that like we'll have to wait and
00:51:07 ◼ ► see you know like no one's saying anything other than epic is saying we're coming back apple hasn't
00:51:13 ◼ ► said epic's not coming back so well there's some bad there's some bad story news stories that got
00:51:17 ◼ ► published that said fortnite's coming back to the app store and it's like no epic said fortnite's
00:51:21 ◼ ► coming back to the app store in the u.s we'll see but they haven't made some other stuff so they have
00:51:27 ◼ ► announced that the epic game store will come again they're making lots of announcements all we can say
00:51:32 ◼ ► is epic have said that the epic game store will be available and it will offer game developers payment
00:51:38 ◼ ► processing at no cost for the first one million dollars of revenue then it is their usual 88 to
00:51:45 ◼ ► 12 percent split for being on their store and using their infrastructure and they're also working on
00:51:51 ◼ ► something they're calling web shops for developers of non-games that will be hosted by the epic game
00:51:56 ◼ ► store so if you wanted to sell digital content or something you could epic will give you the tools to
00:52:03 ◼ ► set up a store that you know you you have all the links and your customer customer will click
00:52:07 ◼ ► it it will take them to the to the site that you know take them to the web they'll have your epic
00:52:11 ◼ ► store there they have said they haven't published it but be better rates than apple they will handle
00:52:16 ◼ ► the infrastructure and customers get kind of credit that they can then use in the epic game store for
00:52:22 ◼ ► any purchase that they make on an epic web shop so my point is this is a few of the many things that's
00:52:29 ◼ ► going to happen you know revenue cat i don't know if they're doing anything yet but you know they're going
00:52:33 ◼ ► to have stuff like every and there will also be whole new companies that are created sure to facilitate
00:52:40 ◼ ► this stuff but you're going to see i think a lot of a lot of success from stripe and and a lot of these
00:52:45 ◼ ► developers are also already using payment processing for things that happen outside so to build in a new
00:52:51 ◼ ► flow that just takes people from the app to their existing outside payment processing same makes sense
00:52:56 ◼ ► makes sense all of this though it's messy and ugly for customers so like all major companies now are
00:53:04 ◼ ► going to implement their own systems and they're going to be forcing you out to pay because you'd be
00:53:07 ◼ ► bananas not to if you're disney if you're netflix if you're amazon anyone everyone why would you give
00:53:15 ◼ ► apple 30 why would you do that if you don't have to 30 is a lot of money even the 15 that some
00:53:22 ◼ ► developers get under certain circumstances is a lot of money right that you're not going to make your
00:53:28 ◼ ► service cheaper but then you get 15 more of it like why would you not do that and the problem is now
00:53:34 ◼ ► customers are going to be thrown left and right to be signing up for accounts all over the place
00:53:39 ◼ ► this is the exact thing that apple was saying that they were trying to avoid right like they're talking
00:53:50 ◼ ► like right there's something along those lines of like you just you you hide behind this which again
00:53:54 ◼ ► is a thing that we've all felt i think gonzalez rogers might be an upgrade listener if you're out there
00:53:59 ◼ ► judge we appreciate you but like if apple chose to be a partner to either the developers or the legal
00:54:09 ◼ ► system not a gatekeeper they could have kept the experience at least for their customers being good because of
00:54:18 ◼ ► the experience is going to be worse now than it was before because as a customer your experience
00:54:25 ◼ ► of signing up for stuff in the apple ecosystem having all your subscriptions available in the app store
00:54:32 ◼ ► one click cancellation all of this stuff share purchase sharing all of these incredible benefits that you get
00:54:38 ◼ ► as a customer amazing but they're going to be gone now you're not going to have these because no one's going to
00:54:44 ◼ ► use this anymore even fewer people than before so if they would have actually just prioritized the customer experience
00:54:51 ◼ ► the experience of their development partners everyone could have been better off cut all customers could have been better off
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