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563: Peanut or a Banana

 

00:00:00   from relay this is upgrade episode 563 for may 12th 2025 today's show is brought to you by

00:00:17   fitbond factor and ecamm my name is mike hurley and i have the pleasure as always of being joined

00:00:22   by jason snow hi jason hello mike hurley it is a pleasure as always to join you weather is nice

00:00:28   here in london right now we don't have time for that okay let's get to a snow talk question comes in

00:00:33   from jerry who wants to know do events go in your calendar in title case or sentence case or are you

00:00:40   one of those i don't know the all lowercase people or a chaos person um okay so this is a style guide

00:00:47   question which is great what a way to start the show it's a it's a style guide well we just onboarded

00:00:52   a new uh six colors writer glenn fleishman um who's going to be writing a help column for us

00:00:58   over at six colors you can actually you know just email glenn at six colors.com with your questions

00:01:03   and maybe i'll answer them on the uh on the website i'll put a link in the show notes to the post where

00:01:07   you talk all about it yeah and one of his questions for me was title case uh related and style guide

00:01:15   related and i i had that moment where i was like okay honestly the style guide doesn't exist and we

00:01:20   kind of make it up as we go and i generally just do it the way that i think i like it and i probably

00:01:26   should come up with a style guide at some point i ended up doing a google search to see how we've used

00:01:31   it in the past sort of a retroactive style guide and one of the things that i realized is his first post

00:01:37   was in uh in title case which is that you are capitalizing most but not all words in the headline

00:01:44   um and for those who don't know that is a that is a a thing that we don't do on six colors we actually

00:01:51   do our headlines in down style or sentence case where you only would capitalize you know proper the first

00:01:57   word and proper names but not and you know titles and and product names and things like that

00:02:03   but not every word um we live in there where the president of the united states post things typed

00:02:10   himself and they're randomly capitalized so present case it's you need a random number generator for

00:02:19   that anyway i um so so this is all a thing that most people don't care about but the people who do

00:02:26   care about it care about a great deal and a lot of times they're the ones involved in making the thing

00:02:29   you may not even notice it i also had to admit to glenn that the incomparables podcast titles as

00:02:34   relays podcast titles are in title case but six colors is in sentence case why

00:02:40   i mean i have some reasons but they're not interesting does it bother you that you thought

00:02:46   of that like when you realized this was there any part of you that was bothered by it the truth is

00:02:52   i don't mind title case on podcast episodes because it's the episode of a podcast on headlines i always

00:02:57   thought it was a little bit much which is why i decided after years of doing it at mac world that

00:03:02   six colors wasn't going to do it i guess the funny thing though is that even though you use title

00:03:07   case the incomparable website publishes all titles in full all caps it's true that's a design it's a css

00:03:15   thing but they're all there in title case and when they show up yeah exactly which is the most

00:03:20   important thing so two events jerry two events

00:03:24   levels jerry

00:03:27   i'm a pretty i'm a pretty random capitalizer when i'm sending things off that don't matter

00:03:35   so when i looked at my calendar today what i found is that i had some events in all lowercase i had some

00:03:40   events that were in title case and i had some events that were in sentence case i think generally

00:03:44   if i'm not being lazy with the shift key every everything is in sentence case let me tell you

00:03:50   actually i'm gonna i'm gonna out jason snell here i'm gonna out yes okay you i i am often quite

00:03:56   surprised at how how often you write in all lowercase like in a show document and stuff yep yep like very

00:04:04   often and and i because i don't care i'm going in and changing it yeah because i don't care because a lot

00:04:10   of a lot of it is i'm trying to dash something off to get it down and it's not for public consumption

00:04:14   and so i don't care i do that a lot in fact my my email sign off my email signature is generally my

00:04:19   name in lowercase so yeah that is a thing but that that is when i'm i don't care but i think that if i

00:04:27   look at my calendar actually some of the title case stuff is technically like that the title of a thing

00:04:33   so it is there for a reason but it's not again it's only for me and so i i honestly i really don't care

00:04:39   i know there are people there are people who who know a lot about style who care about it in all

00:04:44   their all their works and then there are people like me who know about it and and try to care about

00:04:50   it in public facing things but for private things i do not care at all and as i just detailed even for

00:04:55   the public facing things i don't care enough so that's there yeah uh i am an internalized title

00:05:04   caser especially when it comes for lots of things but with events like i don't even know i'm doing it but

00:05:09   it happens right so like i like it i actually tend to over title case uh some stuff where because

00:05:16   there are certain words i guess like adjoining words where you don't do it i actually use an app

00:05:22   on the mac called pop clip um which pop clip is is an app where you can highlight text uh and do things

00:05:30   with that text and it like it shows up basically like the cut copy paste menu above a text when you select

00:05:37   it like you get on the iphone and one of the pop clip things that i do is i can i can copy the text

00:05:43   um and i and a little uh t appears above it and if i press that t it turns it into title case so i do

00:05:50   that for nice i do that for like um the podcast titles because steven would be really mad if i if i

00:05:56   didn't uh title case them correctly um and i don't like it when steven or anybody goes in and changes

00:06:03   anything on my episodes after i post them so i just try and like make sure that that doesn't happen so

00:06:08   like no one has to worry about going in and doing that uh and so i have that app but anyway i uh but

00:06:14   i also have shared calendars of people who don't do that so that's upsetting to me um when i have

00:06:20   events that are in the lowercase but there's nothing i can do about it because it's not my event i'm not

00:06:23   going to go in and change the title of somebody else's event this was a very fun question from jerry so

00:06:30   thank you for sending this in if you'd like to send in a question of your own just go to upgrade

00:06:34   feedback.com and you can send in your own snow talk question uh we were just talking about six colors

00:06:39   business and glenn who's writing the six colors i want to do a follow-up and give a shout out to

00:06:43   friend of the show dan moran for his amazing run on jeopardy last week which was that's right very fun

00:06:48   congratulations to dan i uh yeah he's he's now um matched glenn in some ways and surpassed him in

00:06:56   others which is really fun um interesting and so we got we got uh we got some jeopardy champions in

00:07:01   the six colors uh area that's pretty cool very good and i i really enjoyed one

00:07:07   uh people who know about jeopardy appreciating what dan did two people americans who do not watch

00:07:15   jeopardy being fascinated to react like i was fascinated to watch them react to what jeopardy is

00:07:22   yeah um and then three for non-americans to react to jeopardy uh because again it is a very specific

00:07:30   thing that i'm so used to and and seeing all of these things like does he if he wins does he come back

00:07:35   tomorrow and it's like yes it is a really weird quiz show it's weird and it's fast and that's the

00:07:41   other thing that people kept saying it's like the pace is so fast i'm like yeah it is it's real fast

00:07:45   i have a question uh did he does dan get to keep all that money like the money that you made even

00:07:52   though he lost is it like is that dan's money that's dan's money congratulations i have it on good

00:07:57   authority that um that uh before they were supposed to squeal about it that uh that a person in dan's

00:08:04   family squealed to a friend of dan's okay said dan made a lot of money but that person made a lot of

00:08:10   money i'm very proud of him but he did a good job that person's not a jeopardy fan so they didn't

00:08:14   understand quite how it works whereas i knew that he went out there for two taping days and day two

00:08:21   he was at disneyland which means that he didn't make it to day two and that meant he was on on day

00:08:29   one and that and i know that they tape again it's these levels i know that they tape monday to friday

00:08:34   yep on a day they tape five episodes on a day and so if dan was at disneyland on tuesday

00:08:40   that meant that he didn't he was on five but he didn't he didn't well he didn't get to monday

00:08:47   yeah he he only got through friday right i didn't know if he won or if he was just out in one but

00:08:54   after he won a couple which he did uh it got to friday and i was like well he's not winning this one

00:08:59   because i saw i i you know he went to disneyland the next day so i know that about it but we put all

00:09:04   together and the answer is so the answer is yes he he made that money amazing um i believe the i

00:09:09   believe that various governments take it right off the top the u.s and and the state of california

00:09:15   and according to glenn you then fill out a form if you're not a california resident and say actually

00:09:20   that's my money yeah and then they give it back to you so uh but yeah that's it's pretty good and i

00:09:26   am looking forward to how he handles his annual uh post that he does on his own personal blog

00:09:32   about how much money he makes from from tech journalism and how much money he makes from

00:09:38   uh uh book you know novel writing and all of that and now he's got this game this you know one time

00:09:44   presumably who knows game show uh income stream also jeopardy does a postseason where they have past uh

00:09:52   champions come and play again so he may come back and play again and have a chance to win more money

00:09:59   which is also pretty cool so i'm i couldn't be prouder also for those who don't know uh two years

00:10:05   ago i uh i tried out for jeopardy for the first time using their quiz a week later they had me do

00:10:12   uh the the retake where they make sure that it's proxy basically so that you weren't cheating a week

00:10:16   later i had an i had an in-person zoom audition with a whole bunch of people and they said okay um for

00:10:22   the next year and a half basically you just have to wait by the phone and we'll call you if we're

00:10:26   interested and i told this to dan it was really sad because dan had been trying to be on jeopardy for

00:10:30   10 years and he'd never gotten any of those points and i felt really bad because i thought i was going

00:10:35   to just zoom right into jeopardy contestant hood and dan was uh dan was not and then what happened is

00:10:41   they never called me they're extenuating circumstances but also probably they didn't want me

00:10:45   um but uh then dan just did it and the same thing happened boop boop boop and he got on which is

00:10:50   awesome so i don't feel i don't feel guilty at all now now that dan is a jeopardy champion yeah so

00:10:58   yeah that's so good so good it was so fun to watch uh don't ask me how i saw it um and uh just ways

00:11:05   screeners the end of the first episode when he finds out he won i got tear in my eye he will

00:11:11   yeah i don't know if i've ever seen a man so happy to be honest uh it was amazing congratulations dan

00:11:17   we're really proud of you and uh i think it's so cool all right we've got some follow-up okay so

00:11:23   we've got some some questions and some stuff and obviously uh there's a big lawyer up segment again

00:11:27   today because lots of things have continued to happen uh in the world of legal proceedings over

00:11:32   the last week but first comes from matthias who asks given the last couple of weeks how do you think

00:11:37   apple will handle the messaging of wwdc this year is there anything you think that they should do so

00:11:43   we're like less than a month away at this point um wwdc while being you know it's obviously a

00:11:49   developer's conference i know there is typically and has typically been in the past some kind of feel

00:11:55   good developer video that kind of stuff like what what do you think is the right way to handle it this

00:12:00   yeah i think they'll do what they always do which is the people involved in making wwdd

00:12:05   the people involved in making wwdc are people who their job is developer relations and they're the

00:12:15   ones who who care about developers they're the ones who care about developers so the messaging is going

00:12:19   to be the same which is you're very important to us it's going to be the same and i know that apple

00:12:27   is proud enough that it seems extremely unlikely that we're going to get any kind of profession of

00:12:35   guilt for prior bad behavior yeah do what what do i think they should do well the thing is i don't

00:12:42   think they should handle the messaging different i think they need to change their policies and we can

00:12:47   talk about that more in lawyer up again we can talk about that elsewhere but i think this is the problem

00:12:52   is apple has a developer relations team that cares a lot about developers there are a lot of people

00:12:57   internal app generally who care about developers who probably think that developers are being mistreated

00:13:03   by policy but the people handling the policies are doing something different by the way this is not special

00:13:10   to apple um my direct dealings with google that i had when i worked at idg were very similar which is

00:13:18   i was working with engineers they were awesome they're like how can we do this that works for you

00:13:23   and they built a whole thing and then at some point a switch got flipped and the lawyers came in

00:13:27   and everything sucked um that this is very similar to that which is they're the people who really care

00:13:34   and then they're the people in charge of policy and of course people who really care are not holding a

00:13:39   fiduciary responsibility for the company yada yada yada i get the differences i'm not trying to be naive here

00:13:44   but i i do want to say that is there anything i think they should do is change their policies toward

00:13:51   developers so that their messaging doesn't fall flat and that's not a messaging problem it's a policy

00:13:58   problem yeah i agree i think that we should get one of those which has been in the past one week

00:14:03   before wwdc press release interviews here's how we're changing the rules yeah we're changing the

00:14:09   rules in some way and like and again like i feel like uh i'm harsh on them and i don't know how my

00:14:16   opinion comes across sometimes i think they should get i think apple should get something but it shouldn't

00:14:20   be the 30 is my feeling is like the ideal they they should get something and they should also offer

00:14:26   more to developers for the right to take that something i think but they're appealing right now

00:14:30   and so they're not going to say anything or do anything right because they're still fighting

00:14:34   this they're still fighting city hall right i mean that's what's happening the appeal i don't think

00:14:40   that appeal and it has to stay the same have to be the same thing like i think what well i ultimately

00:14:47   what apple is appealing or i would assume that they're appealing is their ability to make their own

00:14:52   rules because like the issue they have right now is their ability to create policy in this area has

00:14:59   been taken away from them and so they can't really make any changes unless this gets appealed i would

00:15:05   assume exactly so i mean there's nothing they can announce that they could enact in the u.s

00:15:09   because they're under a court order to do it the way that they're doing it now in the u.s

00:15:13   which is nothing essentially it the only thing would be if they decided that this would if there

00:15:18   was a real reversal inside apple where culturally they're like oh we really messed this up we need

00:15:23   to change we need to change everything we we do about this they could announce that everywhere

00:15:27   outside the u.s or maybe the u.s and the eu they had a whole new system of rules that they were putting

00:15:33   into place but again probably not a month since the court ruling right like it's probably just not

00:15:39   going to happen so you know that's what what i think they should do is change the the way they walk the

00:15:44   walk and that will allow them to talk the talk uh but i do not during the actual presentation itself

00:15:50   like apple can do whatever developer evangelists should do everything that they're going to do and

00:15:54   in my opinion should work even harder than ever this year sorry it wasn't your fault but you got to work

00:15:59   hard this year i think if you want to try and convince developers that you care about them what i don't want

00:16:04   to see from apple is one of those feel good developer videos about like how great it is to be an apple

00:16:09   developer and how much they care because it it will fall big time flat and i feel like if they do that

00:16:16   they have absolutely missed the mark like it is not the time right now to be like we love our developers

00:16:22   we care about our developers because even if you do it's just not going to land and it's going to be

00:16:27   taken poorly but so i'll be very intrigued to see what they do uh david writes in and asks and says

00:16:35   where was apple's corporate and external counsel when they were trying to figure out how to comply

00:16:39   with the court order if they've been part of the discussion presumably the conversation wouldn't be

00:16:44   discoverable either i get that lots of companies try to hide behind attorney-client privilege but

00:16:49   figuring out how to comply with a court order seems pretty clearly to be on the fair side of why you talk

00:16:54   to an attorney for advice this is a good point this is a similar point that john voye has made on a great

00:17:00   episode of app stories and like the question that i have which i wonder about is

00:17:04   ultimately does the council serve the ceo like if the ceo decides this is what we're going to do

00:17:11   is it the lawyer to just work it out even if they you know they can ignore the advice

00:17:17   corporate counsel like i assume that the way that this works i think this is a great question because

00:17:22   a lot of people are like where is the lawyer and where are the lawyers in all of this but the thing is

00:17:27   i'm pretty sure that apple's high level strategy meetings don't have the lawyers in them so what's

00:17:36   probably happened is they've asked the lawyers for their opinions and so that means two things one you're a

00:17:43   lawyer working for apple and phil schiller says i think we need to comply and there are probably lawyers

00:17:50   who are like well we can do that that will that will eliminate all sorts of risk if we comply fully

00:17:56   with this and then there are people like luca maestri and presumably tim cook who are like but we don't

00:18:02   have to right like this is arguable right we could we could we could act in this other way and it could

00:18:07   be perceived as being and the lawyer can say well i can make the argument that this is perceived as being

00:18:13   following the judge's orders but you know also i have to advise you that it's a riskier path because

00:18:18   the judge if the judge isn't happy the judge can just uh do whatever she wants and we have to follow

00:18:25   her order because she will find us in contempt so you're walking a line there but as a lawyer i can

00:18:30   argue and again the argue the corporate counsel could even say look we think it's a riskier move they're

00:18:36   not going to say look we can see the future and we if you do this uh you're in big trouble they're

00:18:41   going to say look we could we we think this is a riskier path but if you're concerned about the

00:18:46   revenue implications here you can try it um this is and probably what they did in terms of the final

00:18:53   policies that they enabled or that they enacted were probably guided by the council saying yes you need

00:19:02   to do this you need to do this because remember they were abiding by the letter of the law not the spirit

00:19:07   of the law well that is something you look to your corporate counsel to do is does this

00:19:11   abide by the letter of the the judge's ruling i'm sure though somewhere in there they said

00:19:18   this is a much riskier path and in the end you know that's tim cook's call that's that's the you

00:19:27   could you know the the attorney is going to say not say absolutely not you just have to give away all

00:19:32   this money like phil says the the attorney is going to provide a range of options and what the fallout might

00:19:40   be and in the end i mean i don't i i love this question but in the end it comes back to the same

00:19:46   answer which is there are people who are making it very clear what the potential fallout of this is

00:19:51   and tim cook chose to put it push it to the max and take the risk yeah yeah i i figure it's like

00:20:00   you should say right that the lawyer can advise they can go decide they'll come back and tell the lawyer

00:20:04   and then it's the lawyer's job to try and get it past the judge ultimately yeah you're going to look

00:20:09   at project wisconsin or project michigan or whatever it is and make sure that it ticks all the boxes in

00:20:15   as we all saw the least helpful way possible but that it ticks them so we can argue that we complied with

00:20:21   the judge's ruling and that ends up being the the rule because really how much to comply is a policy decision

00:20:28   it's not a legal decision you're just using you know legal advice but i'm sure somebody said you risk

00:20:34   the judge being unhappy with you and they were okay with that risk yep and here we are

00:20:39   uh finally the great news i think the studio has been renewed uh for season two this show is

00:20:46   an absolute triumph uh the i won't spoil it but the final the final episode of the season is

00:20:51   incredible it's just incredible it feels like seth rogan cashed in every favor he possibly had in

00:20:57   hollywood and put together an episode it's astoundingly good i love this show um and i'm so happy that

00:21:03   they that they're bringing it back it's fantastic show um i was traveling last week so i have been

00:21:10   i'm now behind i'm like way behind on everything and there's more coming too murder bot comes out this

00:21:15   week yeah on tv plus yeah i'm intrigued about really looking forward to you know i'm intrigued

00:21:19   about those the stories are are are so good okay um and the trailer suggests that they've gotten the

00:21:25   tone right so i i highly that it's funny that it's a sci-fi uh thing that's got action in it but it's

00:21:33   also very funny and is about people and specifically about this this uh non-person the murder bot who

00:21:40   does not deal well with humans it's great it's so good so i i have high hopes for the tv show

00:21:46   i'm also still enjoying your friends and neighbors that's also really good but the thing that i'm

00:21:51   interested in here like i find interesting i should say here is it feels like they've got the programming

00:21:57   right like yep we're we're hbo in this of like they're rolling it too they're hbo in it not only in

00:22:04   the quality way but in the fact that like severance ended the same studio started murder bot is is

00:22:09   starting the same week the studio is ending like they've got enough content now this is the way

00:22:13   after the strikes and all that that they are rolling it out there's always something to watch on tv plus

00:22:18   yeah that yeah it's really smart you have concurrent things going on but you feel like you've got like

00:22:23   the hbo model right you've you know you've got this one show that is going to be really good so

00:22:28   you wait until the current really good shows over and then you slot it in its place that's right it's

00:22:33   a risky thing to do right because you're you're you're kind of like potentially then holding off

00:22:38   the next big hit if this one doesn't land but if you're confident in it and you you play it out then

00:22:43   great um but yeah i mean uh yeah so that i think i think they're doing good right now i think severance

00:22:48   set them up well and they've capitalized on it i feel like if you're paying attention to apple tv plus

00:22:55   right now you will want to stay subscribed and that has been their exact problem for the last

00:23:00   four years or whatever right of like yes they have a good show and then people leave and severance got

00:23:06   people in again so let's see if they can hold on to it this episode is brought to you by fitbod if

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00:25:20   a thanks to fitbod for their support of upgrade and relay time to lawyer up clunk clunk uh just a top

00:25:29   level thing any more reflections from you about the like 30 percent situation is the best way i can

00:25:35   kind of encapsulate this over the last week somebody said it should have been called the 30

00:25:39   percent solution because that's sherlock conference um it's very good uh you know it is it's a really

00:25:46   sweet solution sweet um no you know i don't know it is we're just in a weird place right now um where

00:25:58   in some ways this is the culmination of a lot of conversations we've had over years

00:26:04   and that this is in some ways i felt weirdly validated by that judge's ruling yeah because i

00:26:14   felt that a judge who does not spend her entire career paying attention to apple and its policies

00:26:20   dug into this situation and essentially said what we've been saying which is this isn't the problem

00:26:29   here is not you protecting your intellectual property the problem here is that you refuse to compete and

00:26:35   you want to capture everything that happens on your platforms and capture all the revenue out of it even if

00:26:41   you're being hostile to your developer partners and to your users because that the thing about i know it's in

00:26:47   our list here but i'll mention it now one of the things that happened here is amazon added a get book

00:26:52   button to the kindle app yep and and while we're talking about a lot of the conversation and we're going to have it

00:27:00   now a lot of the conversation is about apple potentially losing revenue right by by not having

00:27:07   all that stuff captured but apple never got any revenue from amazon for kindle books they never did

00:27:16   because it never made sense it was never something you could do because of the way that the book selling

00:27:21   model works apple taking its cut literally meant that that amazon lost money on every book sale in the

00:27:28   iphone so this is actually a really great example of one of the other things that happens here which is

00:27:34   apple did a consumer hostile thing made it hard to buy books the most logical place to buy a book

00:27:41   if you're a kindle reader is in the kindle app and you just couldn't and why not apple policy and apple

00:27:47   wasn't even making money apple was just making it hard on amazon and amazon's customers on ios it was

00:27:53   it was decreasing the quality of the user experience on the iphone because it didn't because it made a

00:28:01   blanket policy um we could argue because it started its own bookstore where it didn't need a middleman

00:28:07   like this so so that is i think a really great example of how this is more than just apple um choosing

00:28:16   to try and capture as much money as it could it's also about apple degrading the user experience in

00:28:22   order to keep its policies up and and i would say contrary to what apple's product philosophy is

00:28:28   supposed to be so that's part of it um the other thought that i i've been having and i want to know if

00:28:34   you've got any too but i'll throw one more out there that i've been having for the last week

00:28:37   as i listened to lots of people talk about this and write about that you know all of that is going on

00:28:44   the one thing that i i didn't say last week that i wanted to say here is the 30 right like apple's

00:28:52   argument is oh you've treated our intellectual property as worth nothing and that's why it's an

00:28:57   unconstitutional taking and this should be overturned and all of that i would argue that you could say

00:29:02   that the 99 developer fee is you recouping your intellectual property and that maybe the answer

00:29:08   is you should charge a bigger fee to be an apple developer and do it that way yeah um maybe maybe

00:29:13   that's a way you could do it because in the old days it was it was a thousand dollars a year to be

00:29:17   an apple developer but they lowered it in part because they were then they had this uh this tax that they

00:29:22   did on all the transactions which is great i mean i i and maybe that's the answer is that there's a

00:29:27   you know a a small business and student and non-profit fee that's or or is waived and there's

00:29:34   a more expensive thing i don't think it's going to solve this problem but like i do think it's them

00:29:38   recouping their money on their intellectual property and their apis and all of that what what i kept

00:29:44   thinking all week though is why 30 why 30 it's only 30 because steve jobs said it at 30 in the early

00:29:50   days when everybody looked at the 30 and was like well i mean it is pretty full service and that's not a bad

00:29:55   deal and people didn't really realize kind of like how it went and because it was set there they've

00:29:59   kept it there but for a lot of the people who are like who are saying apple and there aren't that many

00:30:05   honestly which is nice saying oh apple is the victim here i'll just say the reason that i don't feel like

00:30:13   apple's argument is very strong is why 30 why not 70 why not 80 why not 90 what's stopping apple

00:30:24   from charging whatever it wants because there's no competition so it's only 30 because they started

00:30:31   at 30 if they started at 50 it would be 50 if they started at 80 it would be 80 and that's the problem

00:30:39   is that it's not a reasonable amount in any circumstance for them to do this it's not amount

00:30:46   and the issue is competition yeah the issue is competition and the degradation of the user experience

00:30:51   those are my two kind of things that i've been thinking for the last week yeah i mean i think

00:30:55   we're basically around the same area i i think in general um it is a bit it's validating because i feel

00:31:05   like we have been on this hobby horse for a long time uh and yeah it's nice a professional agreed with

00:31:12   us yes like it just didn't feel right like it just didn't feel right you know and i've felt very strongly

00:31:20   for you know where i kind of i feel very strongly i sit in these two kind of different camps where

00:31:24   i i kind of feel that like to a degree businesses should be able to do whatever they want like

00:31:32   in essence of how they work with other businesses i feel like you should be able to set your business

00:31:38   terms and and do what you need to do but at the same time i also think that if it comes to harm

00:31:45   customers then you shouldn't be able to do whatever you want right i feel like it should be businesses

00:31:50   work of businesses and they just work it out like for example the idea i've i've often felt like i know

00:31:57   that this actually got google in trouble so then this isn't allowed but i've often felt that apple should

00:32:02   be free to do whatever deals it wants to do with any developer i i don't think that i sorry i don't think

00:32:09   every developer should have to be treated equally like i just don't think that's the case um i think

00:32:14   netflix should not be treated the same as timery right like they're they just they should just

00:32:22   shouldn't be treated the same in my opinion when you're more successful you get a little bit of

00:32:27   of bargain and power that that's what i think and then it benefits the user right if if you can get a

00:32:34   netflix subscription on the app store that is beneficial to the end user but the way that

00:32:41   things have gone using amazon as the example that is not beneficial to the end user because the fact

00:32:46   that you can't buy a kindle book in the kindle app is just wrong like it's not weird it's not crazy

00:32:52   it's just wrong you should be able to buy content for the app in the app if it's available on the web

00:33:00   you can buy a paper book in the amazon app yeah using in-app purchase using app using amazon's

00:33:07   purchasing system not apple's purchasing system and it's okay because it's a physical book but you

00:33:13   can't do that with an ebook because apple has decided that all digital content should have a cut

00:33:18   for apple i mean they could decide a different way now i wanted to mention one one thing you said there is

00:33:22   you know basically sort of staying out of apple's apple's business in some ways i think part of the

00:33:27   problem here is that there is a smartphone platform duopoly yeah that's part of the problem it might be

00:33:35   different if apple was selling a kind of like a cult device with eight percent market share and one in

00:33:42   control of its platform also it wouldn't it would probably try harder to be better because it would

00:33:48   not be sitting pretty um but that's not the case we are in a if you want a smartphone you're either

00:33:54   under google's rules or apple's rules uh which is not great and and i i am very open to the argument

00:33:59   that if you build a platform that has an open essentially uh third party software experience

00:34:07   that it's more burdensome on you to allow the third parties to make some choices than uh than what apple

00:34:17   is doing here and i i am actually very much in the belief that that's true that like if you if you make

00:34:23   a widget and you make it all yourself that's fine yeah but if you're benefiting from bringing in other

00:34:29   people to your platform the rules change and apple is that plus so powerful now that i feel like

00:34:37   access to uh to their platform is uh is required and i mean but i've already i'm on the i'm on the

00:34:45   record as saying i think that they need to use the mac model and have an app store and then let people

00:34:49   not use the app store i agree period yeah i i'm i mean i've also said it before too if like i think

00:34:55   once you get to a certain size you lose freedom right and apple is so large you have to lose some

00:35:03   of the freedom that i have otherwise believed that a business should have but i think once you get to

00:35:07   a certain point where you become intrinsically important for a large large swath of society to

00:35:14   operate that's the dma argument yeah you have lost the ability to be able to set any and every rule that

00:35:20   you would like to here's the thing right about this kind of stuff about like my idea of like business

00:35:24   issue it's all gray areas it's all none of this should be set in stone like everything has to be

00:35:30   treated case by case it differs everywhere always all the time none of this stuff is easy right and so

00:35:36   i just feel like apple was at the size and at the scale that they're so important that they can't just

00:35:43   do whatever they want and that is how we've ended up in this scenario so as well as the appeal that apple

00:35:49   have already filed for this entire ruling that judge gonzalez rogers gave them they have also filed an

00:35:57   emergency motion with the ninth circuit court of appeals to pause the ruling until the appeal process

00:36:04   is concluded so they have appealed it to try and get it overturned but now they're saying until that

00:36:10   appeal is completed we don't want to abide by these rules and we want to switch things back to how they

00:36:15   were um apple have i think asked or it's being set that this will be decided before the 28th of may

00:36:22   uh as to whether this will continue and i just i find all this just like just let it go but that's

00:36:28   not how it works but there's just a part of just let it go just let it go but it's not how it works and

00:36:32   it can't work that way i understand i'm not a lawyer and also judges can decide what they want to decide

00:36:37   that's the truth of it but what i would say is it strikes me that this will be a tougher thing for

00:36:41   them to argue because it's punitive about them failing they've been found in contempt and so to say

00:36:47   well we've we've been in contempt but don't do this thing we already implemented make us unimplemented

00:36:52   for a while while we get away with this i get the feeling that judges will probably not be as positive

00:36:58   about the idea of temporarily staying a punitive decision because of a finding of contempt right like

00:37:06   it seems that seems to be again from my little non-lawyer perspective like this is going to be

00:37:12   a tougher argument for them but uh you know it only takes all that needs to happen is that a judge

00:37:17   or a panel of judges just need to agree like if you get the right judges and they they decide that then

00:37:24   that's what it'll be uh so other apps have done some interesting things delta the emulator app

00:37:30   um has now added the ability well then they've yet they're very prominently featuring their patreon

00:37:37   as the way to support the app um so like this is just in the us so if i open the app here in the uk

00:37:42   it doesn't have this it can't have this but if you go to the app and you go to the like the main screen

00:37:46   it's like hey support our development sign up for our patreon but they were told by app review

00:37:52   they still have to include apple's in-app purchase if they're now going to suggest that people should

00:37:57   give them money so they've added i just think i think this is funny i think i think that the the

00:38:03   gang over uh alt store they like to poke at apple uh sometimes sometimes they do it better than others

00:38:09   and i think this is a great one they have included under a button that says alternative payment methods

00:38:15   another screen this is at the very bottom of the settings screen of the app another screen will pop up

00:38:20   which will let you sign up within that purchase a thing that uh they would not have been able to get

00:38:25   approved a couple of weeks ago but i think correct app review are very nervous right now is my feeling

00:38:32   and basically they have they have done the bare minimum and it has worked for them which i think is

00:38:37   fantastic i feel like this is something we mentioned in passing last time which is my understanding is

00:38:43   you still have to offer yes in that purchase in a bunch of places but it doesn't say where so you can put it

00:38:48   in that you know in the back of the closet down in the you know the last screen well but here's the

00:38:53   thing what about kindle though well kindle they're not it's it i think it's different but yes that's

00:39:00   that's the question uh i don't know i don't know the answer here's the thing i don't think that would

00:39:04   have been different right that if before this ruling if amazon did that apple would say give us our

00:39:10   money probably so but amazon are getting through because they're amazon it may be different because it's

00:39:16   it's a reader app it's a different it's got a different kind of thing and they have an existing

00:39:19   storefront on the outside it's a little bit it's a little bit different and that may be all or it

00:39:23   may be that app review is in disarray and they're not going to reject anything now i think they're in

00:39:27   disarray because i i feel like if if amazon would have done this a month ago apple would say give us

00:39:35   our money otherwise they would have done it before now right yeah like i i feel like that this is

00:39:41   there are i'm sure many gray areas but i just i feel like i my feeling looking at what's going on

00:39:47   right now is that app review i've kind of just been told that like we need to let it all through here

00:39:54   we need to be let it all through and smaller developers that they're putting up a block but

00:39:58   bigger ones yeah i know you say that but but they push back on delta right well but they're a smaller

00:40:03   developer i i think that they can can kind of push on them i don't know i i really don't know but he's

00:40:09   the thing i don't know right like it doesn't seem to make complete sense to me the way that they're

00:40:13   going about everything i should also say this ruling is so specific it doesn't solve everything

00:40:19   amazon having a a link to buy a book that opens safari to your amazon screen for that book so that you

00:40:26   can buy it and then go back to the uh the kindle app and get the book is not the ideal

00:40:35   situation no the ideal situation should be like the amazon.com app yeah where if you want to buy

00:40:41   something you just buy it and you never leave the app yeah but that's against the rules because that

00:40:47   hasn't been you know hasn't been uh made illegal i mean there's even a step before that it just opens

00:40:52   a safari view controller window but it can't they can't do that either they do that either even though

00:40:57   the best thing to do is it's like buying something a physical book on the amazon app right where you

00:41:03   just press the button and this is all the residue of apple and the judge like apple get being given

00:41:11   some latitude in their policies by the judge which is why the argument that uh the judge's ruling has

00:41:16   taken away apple's ability to control and monetize their iap and whatever like that's why i again as a

00:41:23   not judge judge would be deeply skeptical of apple's claims because it seems to me like a lot of apple's

00:41:30   proposals were accepted like she didn't say you can't you have to just let people build code in to

00:41:38   charge credit cards she didn't say that she just said you can't you got to let them go out to the web

00:41:43   with whatever link they want and and the policy about no uh no safari web view inside the app

00:41:51   remains right like that that wasn't invalidated so like apple still gets to sort of like control the

00:41:58   way you do this they just don't get to uh outlaw you know non-static links and demand that amazon

00:42:08   audit you know its books and provide kickbacks to apple so we had a lot of discussion last time about

00:42:17   what epic we're going to do about fortnite because they've been saying fortnite's coming back and we

00:42:22   were questioning how what they have done i think it's is even what i said what i thought or i was just

00:42:29   thinking it they would use the app store uh the developer account that they have for distribution

00:42:37   of their alternative app store in europe so they have a new developer account which they're using

00:42:43   for the uh alternative app store and and fortnite and all that the epic game stuff that exists

00:42:49   because of the dma because their old account was gotten rid of right it was disabled by apple as

00:42:56   breach of the term so they'd set up a new one yes so they have confirmed uh on friday fortnite was

00:43:04   submitted to the app store for distribution in the u.s from the eu account so as of recording now

00:43:10   we're waiting to see what happens i want to get a sense from you yes or no does apple approve fortnite

00:43:19   this is going to be one of those questions about whether how much in disarray apple is and i think

00:43:28   this is high profile enough that it's not going to be an app reviewer it's going to be somebody

00:43:31   high up possibly even phil schiller level saying what are we going to do about this my gut feeling is

00:43:38   that epic doesn't have a leg to stand on and that the apple's just going to say no we told you you

00:43:43   you're in violation of our terms and you're only in the eu uh this entity is only able to upload this

00:43:49   thing in the eu uh because of the dma um this entity exists because of the dma in europe in the u.s you

00:43:56   are still under the terms of your old agreement uh because you are a uh you know a subsidiary of the

00:44:03   company that used this very code to break the agreement and so we're not going to let you i think

00:44:09   that is the most likely scenario because it's true if it gets in that says something about how apple is

00:44:16   reeling from all of these rulings right um and that it is trying not to poke the bear but because

00:44:25   the okay the the upside of letting this thing in is it's one less controversy and you get a popular

00:44:35   game on your platform again it's not bad the downside of this is that you're kind of saying

00:44:46   that your ability to keep things out of the app store is lessened and i don't know if they want to

00:44:56   say that so i i i my gut feeling is that they'll just say no this the judge's ruling says nothing about

00:45:03   you being in the app store um and if they say yes it suggests that there is a lot of recriminations

00:45:09   going on at apple right now i think they're gonna let it in um i don't think that it will be an easier

00:45:17   decision i think it will be a decision that they will make because they want to show that they're willing

00:45:23   to play ball right because they've gotten in trouble now and so i think it would show the legal system

00:45:30   that they're willing to change right and they're willing to be better people than they were before

00:45:35   but i think it will come with a statement either from apple or epic which is said that in any scenario

00:45:42   in which the rules change epic have to remove the purchase methods that they put in the app

00:45:53   that's what i that's where i think it will come down to if if they allow it in

00:45:57   said it and it will remain like that you can buy your vbucks on the web

00:46:01   as long as like provided that this remains that's what i think will happen there is this weird scenario

00:46:08   i heard someone say this on a podcast as if this was fact but it's not fact but it was an interesting

00:46:12   thought exercise which was the thing that epic did broke the rules but as of the rules that currently

00:46:20   exist as opposed upon apple it's perfectly legal

00:46:23   now i'm not saying that that means they should let it in

00:46:28   but that's where it gets awkward is that yeah

00:46:31   they broke the rules but this is a different developer account

00:46:36   where they're submitting an app a game which based on the current

00:46:40   rules that have been set forth by the judge is perfectly

00:46:44   legal so is the situation that i mean i don't know what the terms say but if you broke the rules

00:46:52   on one account are you blackballed from ever creating another developer you are but they have

00:46:57   one though but they have one but they would say well this is the thing this is why it's up to them

00:47:02   it's up to apple yeah because there are lots of excuses they could use they could say well you know

00:47:09   they they have a new account and that is a developer in good standing we've decided to treat it that way

00:47:14   and they are in the eu store and we're gonna this is just for the u.s store and

00:47:18   and and like you said this is only because of the rules in the u.s and if those rules change we expect them to follow or be removed

00:47:25   they could do all of that right they could do all of that so

00:47:28   maybe those are all good excuses they could use they could also just say

00:47:33   nothing has changed in terms of the fact that the fact is that epic

00:47:36   broke our rules

00:47:38   and it doesn't matter that the rules have changed now they willfully broke our rules

00:47:43   and so

00:47:44   we

00:47:45   are

00:47:46   not

00:47:47   willing to do business with them unless we're legally forced to the downside of that like i said

00:47:51   is

00:47:51   what if that means they're going to be legally forced to because that is bad because then they lose yet another

00:47:56   piece of control

00:47:57   because of their

00:47:59   obstinance so we'll see

00:48:00   i think that it is in there are lots of ways in which this is in good interest to apple to have epic back on the app store

00:48:07   fortnite is the biggest game in the world

00:48:09   that's the number one reason to allow it is just that it's it's a very popular game and you

00:48:14   you should just get it back on your platforms and just sort of like

00:48:17   say okay a lot of water under the bridge they're doing this differently

00:48:21   it's only going to be in the u.s though it's not going to be anywhere else

00:48:24   yep

00:48:24   but

00:48:25   it's a it's a start

00:48:27   and uh analyst firm app figures issued a report last week that apple made 10 billion dollars from u.s app store commissions in 2024

00:48:37   um i'm usually very hesitant to pay much attention to these kinds of reports because i just don't know how you could actually get that number

00:48:44   um

00:48:45   but even as an indicator i just thought it was an interesting thing to consider

00:48:49   uh app figures estimates that four billion dollars of this is games the rest is like app subscriptions

00:48:55   and it was just a thought like how much of this would go away under this scenario if it was half

00:49:01   right let's just imagine it's half um which is still a huge number but five billion dollars of profit

00:49:08   would is quite a lot of money

00:49:12   and i would show it is

00:49:15   it is um

00:49:17   this is where

00:49:18   i so i looked at some of these numbers

00:49:21   and this is where i

00:49:23   understand why apple is behaving this way

00:49:27   and i think this is important

00:49:29   i can disagree with all the details of what apple has done policy wise

00:49:33   but by if you look at the numbers

00:49:36   i think you can understand why

00:49:38   executives

00:49:40   and people in finance

00:49:41   are

00:49:43   concerned

00:49:44   about this

00:49:45   because

00:49:46   10

00:49:48   if it's true that it's 10 billion dollars

00:49:51   in services revenue

00:49:52   in 2024

00:49:54   just from the u.s

00:49:56   from u.s app store commissions

00:49:58   that's a lot of money

00:50:00   yeah

00:50:01   and you're like oh yes well

00:50:02   but apple

00:50:04   you know

00:50:05   has so much more revenue

00:50:06   that it doesn't matter

00:50:07   well think about it this way

00:50:08   that 10 billion is mostly profit

00:50:10   right

00:50:11   because it's just

00:50:12   they're just skimming

00:50:13   off the top

00:50:14   and you can argue

00:50:15   yeah well we you know

00:50:15   amortize the cost of the internet purchase

00:50:17   people in the world

00:50:18   people working on the frameworks

00:50:19   or whatever

00:50:19   but let's just say

00:50:20   it's basically profit

00:50:21   they did 200 billion

00:50:24   in iphone revenue last year

00:50:26   and if we

00:50:28   ballpark that's like

00:50:30   75 80 billion dollars in profit

00:50:32   okay

00:50:33   80 billion dollars in profit

00:50:36   is a lot

00:50:36   don't get me wrong

00:50:37   but

00:50:38   put in perspective

00:50:40   it is not like

00:50:41   the iphone is

00:50:43   20 30 40 times

00:50:44   as profitable

00:50:45   as the

00:50:46   as the app store

00:50:47   commissions

00:50:49   it's

00:50:49   it's actually not

00:50:50   it's

00:50:51   eight times

00:50:52   as profitable

00:50:52   maybe seven times

00:50:53   as profitable

00:50:54   well when

00:50:55   when you're thinking about that

00:50:56   you start to think

00:50:57   oh wow

00:50:58   apple's most profitable thing

00:50:59   is 80

00:51:00   and then this is 10

00:51:02   and we lose

00:51:03   half or all of that 10

00:51:04   that really hurts

00:51:06   and it does

00:51:06   there's no doubt about it

00:51:07   uh but

00:51:08   but wait there's more

00:51:09   it

00:51:11   because of the google search thing

00:51:12   which is also in jeopardy

00:51:14   that's reportedly

00:51:16   20 billion dollars

00:51:17   that's also

00:51:17   i would argue

00:51:18   basically pure profit

00:51:20   from google

00:51:22   for search revenue

00:51:22   it is

00:51:23   it's pure profit

00:51:24   what are they doing

00:51:25   what are they doing

00:51:25   look

00:51:26   they will say

00:51:27   that safari

00:51:28   they'll put some percentage

00:51:29   of safari development

00:51:30   against it

00:51:31   and all that

00:51:31   i'm just saying

00:51:32   because

00:51:33   i have to say it

00:51:34   i have to say it this way

00:51:36   because somebody will say

00:51:36   you know that's not true

00:51:38   they have developers

00:51:39   who work on those features

00:51:40   and it's not pure profit

00:51:41   the notes app

00:51:42   is not subsidized

00:51:43   from a deal

00:51:44   from anybody else

00:51:45   right like

00:51:45   it is

00:51:46   pure

00:51:47   profit

00:51:47   by any stretch

00:51:49   of the imagination

00:51:49   if you want to say

00:51:51   it's not really

00:51:52   30 billion dollars a year

00:51:53   pure profit

00:51:53   from the app store

00:51:54   and search

00:51:54   it's actually

00:51:55   29.8

00:51:57   okay

00:51:58   i'm gonna round it

00:51:59   back up to 30

00:52:00   30 billion a year

00:52:01   so apple

00:52:02   made 95 billion dollars

00:52:05   in total profit

00:52:06   last year

00:52:06   30 billion

00:52:08   was from search

00:52:10   and u.s app store

00:52:12   commissions

00:52:12   as bad

00:52:13   and that

00:52:15   is why

00:52:16   they're worried

00:52:17   and that is why

00:52:18   they're behaving

00:52:19   the way they are

00:52:20   and we can still

00:52:21   say that they're

00:52:21   behaving badly

00:52:22   and also i would say

00:52:24   we're not really

00:52:24   arguing that they

00:52:25   should have nothing

00:52:26   right that's not it

00:52:27   the argument is

00:52:28   they should compete

00:52:29   and that they should

00:52:29   make their products

00:52:30   better and they will

00:52:31   lose some money

00:52:31   but they won't lose

00:52:32   all of it

00:52:33   because they have

00:52:33   a huge home field

00:52:34   advantage

00:52:34   they have so many

00:52:35   different ways

00:52:35   where they're

00:52:36   advantaged

00:52:36   and even in the u.s.

00:52:37   where the judge

00:52:38   is very angry

00:52:39   with them

00:52:40   they're still

00:52:41   allowed to do

00:52:41   things like

00:52:42   push the

00:52:43   push it into safari

00:52:45   instead of allowing

00:52:46   them to build

00:52:46   it in the iap

00:52:47   so they've got

00:52:48   lots of advantages

00:52:49   there if they

00:52:50   want to compete

00:52:50   but you can

00:52:52   see why

00:52:52   they're worried

00:52:53   because if

00:52:54   they lose

00:52:55   all

00:52:55   which they're

00:52:56   not

00:52:56   i mean

00:52:57   even if

00:52:57   they're ordered

00:52:58   to not do

00:52:59   business with

00:52:59   google

00:53:00   and take

00:53:01   money from

00:53:01   google anymore

00:53:02   for search

00:53:02   search is

00:53:04   valuable

00:53:05   and they will

00:53:06   make that money

00:53:06   back with their

00:53:07   own advertising

00:53:07   or with another

00:53:08   partner or set

00:53:09   of partners

00:53:09   they will get

00:53:10   that money

00:53:10   back

00:53:10   so it's not

00:53:11   going to be

00:53:12   30 billion

00:53:12   maybe but it

00:53:13   will be a lot

00:53:13   of money

00:53:14   but let's

00:53:14   just say

00:53:14   it's nothing

00:53:15   they will

00:53:15   make money

00:53:16   back

00:53:16   yeah

00:53:16   well it won't

00:53:17   be right

00:53:18   so it won't

00:53:19   be 30 billion

00:53:19   but it won't

00:53:20   be zero

00:53:21   it will be

00:53:22   somewhere in

00:53:22   between

00:53:22   but just to

00:53:23   put it in

00:53:23   perspective

00:53:24   it's a third

00:53:25   of their

00:53:26   profit

00:53:27   is this

00:53:28   because it's

00:53:30   so profitable

00:53:31   it's basically

00:53:32   you know

00:53:33   there's no

00:53:34   overhead

00:53:34   this is just

00:53:35   it's a free

00:53:36   money coming

00:53:37   in

00:53:38   so that's why

00:53:39   they're worried

00:53:39   i get it

00:53:40   i get it

00:53:40   i also think

00:53:41   though that

00:53:42   they protest

00:53:43   too much

00:53:43   and they say

00:53:44   oh

00:53:44   30 billion

00:53:45   we're gonna

00:53:46   lose it all

00:53:46   and it's like

00:53:46   no you're not

00:53:47   i just don't

00:53:48   believe you are

00:53:49   i believe if you

00:53:49   work hard

00:53:50   and are clever

00:53:51   you will keep

00:53:51   a lot of that

00:53:52   money but you're

00:53:52   gonna have to

00:53:53   work more than

00:53:53   you do now

00:53:54   for it

00:53:54   i know that's

00:53:55   hard but

00:53:55   it's 30

00:53:56   billion dollars

00:53:56   you could work

00:53:57   for it

00:53:57   but even if

00:53:58   you lost it

00:53:59   you still have

00:54:00   65 billion dollars

00:54:01   of profit a year

00:54:02   yeah

00:54:03   that is a lot

00:54:04   of money

00:54:04   like what are

00:54:05   you doing

00:54:05   with that

00:54:06   like you know

00:54:07   like what

00:54:08   are you doing

00:54:08   with it

00:54:09   i would say

00:54:10   i would say

00:54:11   that that is

00:54:11   one of the toxic

00:54:12   things about this

00:54:13   this kind of money

00:54:14   is you just

00:54:14   get used to

00:54:15   having this

00:54:15   free money

00:54:15   coming in

00:54:16   and it's like

00:54:17   well we can

00:54:18   make our 80

00:54:18   billion if we

00:54:18   consider the

00:54:19   iphone and

00:54:19   the app store

00:54:20   the same thing

00:54:20   which to a

00:54:21   certain degree

00:54:21   they are

00:54:22   um you know

00:54:23   it makes an

00:54:24   80 billion dollar

00:54:25   profit 90

00:54:26   billion dollars

00:54:26   well that's

00:54:27   way better

00:54:28   so hooray for

00:54:30   it why would

00:54:30   we ever forgo

00:54:31   that whereas

00:54:32   somebody else

00:54:32   might argue

00:54:33   you're already

00:54:34   making 80

00:54:35   billion dollars

00:54:36   a year

00:54:36   on iphones

00:54:37   it's okay

00:54:39   it's fine

00:54:40   to not make

00:54:41   90

00:54:41   it's fine

00:54:42   it's totally

00:54:43   like what are

00:54:43   you even

00:54:44   spending on

00:54:44   it's not

00:54:45   it's not

00:54:45   make 80

00:54:46   instead of 90

00:54:46   it's make 85

00:54:48   instead of 90

00:54:49   or 87

00:54:49   instead of 90

00:54:50   it's not

00:54:51   make 80

00:54:53   instead of 90

00:54:53   but still

00:54:54   it's 80

00:54:55   billion dollars

00:54:56   in profit

00:54:56   and i get

00:54:57   why if you're

00:54:57   a cfo

00:54:57   if you're

00:54:58   somebody who's

00:54:59   interested in

00:55:00   keeping wall

00:55:01   street happy

00:55:01   having a

00:55:03   a whole year

00:55:05   where your

00:55:05   year over

00:55:06   years are

00:55:06   way down

00:55:07   because you've

00:55:07   lost this

00:55:08   revenue stream

00:55:09   i get why

00:55:10   you hate that

00:55:11   but as an

00:55:12   outside observer

00:55:13   i look at that

00:55:13   and say

00:55:14   you know

00:55:14   you'll probably

00:55:15   be okay

00:55:16   and if you

00:55:17   fight

00:55:18   and if you

00:55:19   work hard

00:55:19   and if you

00:55:20   compete

00:55:20   it's not

00:55:21   gonna go

00:55:22   like because

00:55:23   there's a lot

00:55:23   of this argument

00:55:24   is like oh

00:55:25   if apple's ever

00:55:25   allowed to compete

00:55:26   they're gonna

00:55:27   get nothing

00:55:28   it's like well

00:55:29   in their current

00:55:29   policies if they

00:55:30   stay the same

00:55:31   maybe

00:55:32   but that's not

00:55:34   gonna happen

00:55:34   they're gonna

00:55:34   compete

00:55:35   and they've got

00:55:36   a lot of

00:55:36   advantages as the

00:55:37   platform owner

00:55:37   so they're still

00:55:39   gonna make a lot

00:55:39   of money from

00:55:40   this even if

00:55:41   it's not

00:55:41   all of it

00:55:43   we're talking

00:55:45   about the google

00:55:45   thing just a

00:55:47   couple of things

00:55:47   real quick

00:55:48   eddie q took

00:55:48   the stand

00:55:49   in google's

00:55:50   antitrust case

00:55:51   last week

00:55:51   and came

00:55:52   and from that

00:55:54   came a few

00:55:54   pieces of news

00:55:55   god i love

00:55:56   i love that

00:55:57   guy he just

00:55:57   doesn't care

00:55:58   incredible i love

00:55:58   him q testified

00:55:59   that in april

00:56:00   2025 apple

00:56:02   saw a decline

00:56:02   in google searches

00:56:03   in safari for

00:56:04   the first time

00:56:05   ever this led

00:56:06   to q they're

00:56:07   mentioning that

00:56:07   apple was

00:56:08   looking uh

00:56:09   into ai

00:56:10   search as

00:56:11   future alternatives

00:56:12   as this was

00:56:13   kind of you

00:56:13   know he was

00:56:14   indicating that

00:56:17   this might be a

00:56:18   reason why that

00:56:19   it was happening

00:56:20   and it said

00:56:21   that they've

00:56:21   been in

00:56:22   discussion with

00:56:22   perplexity

00:56:23   anthropic and

00:56:24   open ai

00:56:24   is potentially

00:56:25   putting them

00:56:26   in a search

00:56:26   engine partners

00:56:27   in the future

00:56:27   google stock

00:56:29   fell they did

00:56:30   damaging control

00:56:31   um damage

00:56:32   control and

00:56:33   you know google

00:56:34   had like oh

00:56:35   overall queries

00:56:36   from apple

00:56:37   devices are going

00:56:38   up probably

00:56:38   partly because

00:56:39   and if you use

00:56:40   google on your

00:56:41   on your iphone at

00:56:42   the moment but

00:56:42   it is it's

00:56:43   it's maddening

00:56:44   every time you do

00:56:44   a google search

00:56:45   and like hey

00:56:46   download our app

00:56:46   and the button

00:56:47   to download the

00:56:48   app is continue

00:56:50   so bad like

00:56:51   google i know

00:56:52   why they're doing

00:56:53   it but it's

00:56:53   terrible um

00:56:54   yep and i

00:56:56   feel like it's

00:56:56   been well

00:56:57   pointed out

00:56:57   across the

00:56:58   internet that

00:56:59   eddie gave

00:57:00   this piece of

00:57:00   information because

00:57:01   he wanted to

00:57:02   suggest that

00:57:02   apple and the

00:57:03   apple google

00:57:03   partnership is

00:57:04   not as

00:57:04   devastating to

00:57:05   competition as

00:57:07   people think

00:57:08   um but

00:57:09   nevertheless this

00:57:09   is very

00:57:10   interesting i

00:57:11   think yeah

00:57:12   google slicing

00:57:13   it the way they

00:57:14   did is

00:57:15   fascinating because

00:57:16   a lot of

00:57:16   people said okay

00:57:17   well these can

00:57:18   both be true

00:57:19   they are both

00:57:19   true eddie eddie

00:57:21   is shooting from

00:57:21   the hip but

00:57:22   he's basically

00:57:22   look our

00:57:23   safari referrals

00:57:24   you think eddie

00:57:24   q is not

00:57:25   keenly aware of

00:57:26   the growth of

00:57:27   safari referrals

00:57:28   to google given

00:57:29   the the 20

00:57:30   billion dollars

00:57:30   he's keenly

00:57:31   aware of it

00:57:31   so he says

00:57:32   that and

00:57:33   google's google

00:57:34   stock goes down

00:57:34   they're like no

00:57:35   no no no no

00:57:35   it's fine

00:57:36   if you know

00:57:37   from a certain

00:57:38   point of view

00:57:38   it's fine

00:57:39   the if you

00:57:40   consider all

00:57:41   queries on

00:57:42   those devices

00:57:43   we weren't

00:57:44   down and

00:57:45   it's like oh

00:57:46   well that's

00:57:47   because you are

00:57:48   pushing people to

00:57:49   your google app

00:57:49   and people

00:57:50   are using

00:57:51   you know

00:57:51   they're using

00:57:52   uh uh

00:57:53   ai you know

00:57:55   google and

00:57:55   google gemini

00:57:56   and whatever

00:57:56   and there are

00:57:57   other things on

00:57:57   the device that

00:57:58   are not coming

00:57:59   from safari

00:57:59   and like they

00:58:01   obfuscated that

00:58:03   in a way that i

00:58:04   think is probably

00:58:05   true

00:58:05   yes but it's

00:58:07   like what you're

00:58:08   saying is you

00:58:09   replace it with

00:58:10   the things that

00:58:10   don't make you

00:58:11   any money

00:58:12   which is the

00:58:13   problem

00:58:13   yeah so

00:58:15   whereas eddie q

00:58:17   just cares about

00:58:17   the money he

00:58:18   gets because

00:58:18   you know the

00:58:18   way the the

00:58:19   deal works is

00:58:20   that i believe

00:58:20   is basically

00:58:21   just it's

00:58:22   like selling

00:58:23   like the

00:58:24   other the

00:58:25   other month

00:58:25   and i don't

00:58:25   know why

00:58:26   somebody clicked

00:58:27   on a referral

00:58:28   link on six

00:58:29   colors to

00:58:29   amazon um

00:58:31   in a product

00:58:32   that i was

00:58:32   mentioning in

00:58:33   passing and

00:58:34   then seemed to

00:58:35   make a large

00:58:36   purchase in the

00:58:37   same session

00:58:37   and my amazon

00:58:39   i got an

00:58:39   enormous amount

00:58:40   of money for

00:58:41   amazon uh

00:58:43   that month

00:58:43   it's a little

00:58:44   like that right

00:58:45   it's like you

00:58:46   know there

00:58:47   there's no big

00:58:48   novelty check for

00:58:48   20 billion dollars

00:58:49   that comes to

00:58:50   apple from google

00:58:51   every month or

00:58:51   every year it's

00:58:53   every single

00:58:54   search is a

00:58:56   little bit of

00:58:56   money and it

00:58:57   adds up that's

00:58:58   how it works and

00:58:58   so q knows that

00:59:00   count and he

00:59:01   knows what's

00:59:01   going on there

00:59:02   but the thing i

00:59:03   want to say about

00:59:04   eddie q is

00:59:04   these are not

00:59:07   the reason we

00:59:08   read these as

00:59:08   like calculated

00:59:09   apple pronouncements

00:59:10   and they're not

00:59:10   quite and he's

00:59:11   not a loose

00:59:12   canon but

00:59:13   what he's

00:59:13   doing is in

00:59:13   the context

00:59:14   of this uh

00:59:16   this court

00:59:17   interaction he's

00:59:20   saying things in

00:59:22   a very specific

00:59:22   way so like

00:59:23   when he talks

00:59:26   about it going

00:59:26   down what he's

00:59:27   saying is it's

00:59:27   not a it's not

00:59:28   a sure thing in

00:59:29   fact there's a

00:59:30   trend here because

00:59:31   it went down for

00:59:31   the first time he's

00:59:32   trying to say you

00:59:33   know we are in a

00:59:34   transition point and

00:59:35   when he talks

00:59:35   about other

00:59:36   alternatives he

00:59:38   says well you

00:59:39   know yeah it's

00:59:41   of course we're

00:59:43   talking to others

00:59:44   because we want

00:59:44   to always do

00:59:45   that and we

00:59:45   want to offer

00:59:46   that he's not

00:59:46   saying we're out

00:59:47   of business with

00:59:48   google he's

00:59:48   saying you know

00:59:49   we are always

00:59:50   discussing this

00:59:51   with partners so

00:59:52   don't make this

00:59:53   seem like it's a

00:59:54   it's a fixed

00:59:54   deal it's always a

00:59:57   moving target and

00:59:58   then the key thing

00:59:59   is then they're

01:00:00   like you know

01:00:02   about the future

01:00:03   and he says hey

01:00:04   it's the tech

01:00:05   industry you know

01:00:06   we had we had

01:00:07   ipods and then

01:00:08   you know then we

01:00:09   had iphones we

01:00:10   have iphones now

01:00:11   but it doesn't

01:00:12   mean we're going

01:00:12   to have them in

01:00:13   a decade and

01:00:14   everybody's like

01:00:14   eddie q said the

01:00:15   iphone might not

01:00:16   exist in a decade

01:00:17   it's like well

01:00:17   that's not what he

01:00:18   was saying he

01:00:19   was saying things

01:00:20   happen in the tech

01:00:22   industry and it

01:00:23   moves life comes at

01:00:24   you quick so to

01:00:25   speak and so you

01:00:27   know he's making

01:00:28   the argument that

01:00:29   that a lot of the

01:00:31   classic court rulings

01:00:32   in the tech industry

01:00:33   happen after it's

01:00:34   over and they're

01:00:35   trying to regulate

01:00:36   the thing that's

01:00:37   already over and

01:00:38   and that that this

01:00:40   is already a moving

01:00:41   target and yes it is

01:00:42   all self-serving but

01:00:44   he's not wrong i

01:00:45   still can't believe

01:00:46   that he said that

01:00:47   though i can't

01:00:47   believe that eddie

01:00:48   q apple executive

01:00:50   took the stand and

01:00:51   said you may not

01:00:51   need an iphone 10

01:00:52   years from now it's

01:00:53   just like i'm not

01:00:54   saying he's wrong

01:00:55   he's right it's a

01:00:57   wild thing for it

01:00:58   to hear from apple

01:00:59   say in public it's

01:01:00   just like an

01:01:01   incredible thing to

01:01:02   say i just in the

01:01:03   context of it it's

01:01:04   not that it's not

01:01:05   that crazy because

01:01:06   he's like things

01:01:06   move fast anything

01:01:07   could happen and

01:01:08   it's self-serving it

01:01:09   is completely self-serving

01:01:10   if you're the giant in

01:01:11   the industry to say

01:01:12   any day now we could

01:01:13   just be knocked off

01:01:13   our perch but he's

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01:03:05   of this show and all of

01:03:07   relay rumor round up

01:03:09   time yeah as part of

01:03:12   court proceedings a

01:03:13   couple of weeks ago the

01:03:14   case that we were just

01:03:15   mentioning sundar

01:03:16   pachai said that he's

01:03:17   hopeful that gemini will

01:03:18   be integrated into the

01:03:19   iphone this year just

01:03:21   like chat gpt is a quote

01:03:23   from bloomberg pachai said

01:03:24   he held a series of

01:03:25   conversations with tim

01:03:27   cook across 2024 and he

01:03:29   hopes to have a deal done

01:03:30   by the middle of the

01:03:30   year totally happening

01:03:31   for wwdc

01:03:33   it's interesting that this

01:03:36   took a year to do though

01:03:37   because craig fitter he

01:03:39   called gemini out or

01:03:40   google out on stage at the

01:03:42   talk show and it's taken

01:03:43   the mismanount of time to

01:03:44   get that deal done or

01:03:46   maybe this was a thing

01:03:47   they always thought they

01:03:48   would do in the future

01:03:48   but i think they always

01:03:50   thought they would do it

01:03:51   in the future i think

01:03:51   that they've had so much

01:03:52   ai stuff going on and

01:03:54   going wrong that they at

01:03:55   some point probably said

01:03:56   we're not going to even

01:03:57   get this in until the next

01:03:59   version of ios and then i

01:04:01   think they all agreed to

01:04:01   this and didn't sign

01:04:03   anything so that if they

01:04:04   were asked in court about

01:04:05   it they could say well

01:04:06   we're hopeful but we

01:04:07   haven't signed anything yet

01:04:08   and then you know they'll

01:04:09   sign a thing and i because

01:04:11   this sounds like this is

01:04:12   in the bag

01:04:12   the first thing that sundar

01:04:14   did when he left the

01:04:15   courtroom that day was

01:04:16   complete the docusign link

01:04:17   that he was sitting in

01:04:18   that's right sp it's in

01:04:20   there now according to

01:04:22   mark german apple has

01:04:24   been working with

01:04:24   anthropic to integrate its

01:04:26   clawed sonnet model into

01:04:27   xcode to create a quote

01:04:29   vibe coding tool that is

01:04:31   being distributed internally

01:04:33   uh here's the thing i'm

01:04:34   going to do a bit of

01:04:34   follow-out i don't really

01:04:35   understand what vibe

01:04:36   coding is federico does

01:04:37   we're going to ask him to

01:04:38   explain it to me on uh

01:04:39   connected this week great

01:04:41   that'll be good i have a

01:04:42   basic idea of what it is

01:04:44   but like i don't really

01:04:45   know anyway so but this is

01:04:46   a tool that would help

01:04:47   developers more easily

01:04:48   write and edit codes with

01:04:50   vibes with their own

01:04:51   vibes on the side of xcode

01:04:53   uh it's unknown at this

01:04:54   point if apple would

01:04:55   distribute it out to the

01:04:56   public or if it's just

01:04:57   gonna remain internal but

01:04:59   what i thought was

01:05:00   interesting about this is

01:05:01   it is an example of uh

01:05:02   the craig fiderigi

01:05:03   mandate that that had

01:05:05   been said uh to have a

01:05:07   code inside of apple that

01:05:08   they were considering

01:05:09   using things uh from

01:05:11   other ai partners where

01:05:12   they can kind of the

01:05:13   removing the not

01:05:14   invented here kind of

01:05:16   mentality that apple

01:05:17   would have on this

01:05:17   yeah it does make me

01:05:19   wonder there there were

01:05:20   other reports about that

01:05:21   that they they had that

01:05:22   xcode with the code

01:05:23   assistant thing that they

01:05:25   actually did show i was i

01:05:27   saw it yep gruber saw it

01:05:28   john vorhees saw it dan

01:05:30   morin saw it and uh that

01:05:32   hasn't really shipped and

01:05:33   maybe it won't

01:05:35   uh if they're doing that i

01:05:38   don't think so okay i don't

01:05:41   think it did so it's very

01:05:44   interesting that they're

01:05:45   like ah now we're using

01:05:46   claude and it works a lot

01:05:47   better yeah oh yeah yeah

01:05:51   and apple has advantage

01:05:52   the the whatever corpus

01:05:53   they've got of swift code

01:05:55   for example they could work

01:05:57   with partners to have that

01:06:00   be part of the training set

01:06:01   for future models and then

01:06:04   integrate those models which

01:06:05   might be a way for them to

01:06:06   do it too

01:06:07   that's wild you know i just

01:06:10   assumed that that came out

01:06:12   swift assist that's why

01:06:14   this this went by me

01:06:15   because i would not assume

01:06:17   that swift assist was ai in

01:06:20   xcode like to me swift

01:06:22   assist sounds like here's

01:06:24   your new way to do table

01:06:26   views like you know like in

01:06:27   my mind it's just like it

01:06:28   just flies straight out right

01:06:29   like i don't even really pay

01:06:30   attention to that i had just

01:06:32   assumed because this wasn't

01:06:33   one of the ones that we were

01:06:34   talking about i guess apple

01:06:35   didn't like actually say like

01:06:39   maybe this wasn't the ones

01:06:41   where they were like i know

01:06:42   we're just not we just ain't

01:06:43   gonna do that it's not there

01:06:44   it's not there and then

01:06:46   mark german reports that

01:06:47   internally they're now using

01:06:48   claude instead i'm like

01:06:49   hmm hmm what does that what

01:06:51   does that mean what does that

01:06:53   mean

01:06:54   uh there has been in last week

01:06:57   what i consider to be a weird

01:07:00   flurry of rumors detailing

01:07:01   apple's 2027 product lineup from

01:07:04   multiple sources everyone's

01:07:06   talking about not this year's

01:07:08   iphones not next year next

01:07:11   year's the year after that

01:07:13   2027 so the information

01:07:15   reported that the 2027 iphone

01:07:18   will be all display with the

01:07:19   front camera and face id being

01:07:21   moved to under the screen this

01:07:23   iphone will be the 20th

01:07:25   anniversary iphone um so maybe

01:07:28   they're going big on it you

01:07:29   know i had to thought maybe this

01:07:31   week or maybe last week they

01:07:32   locked the design for the 27

01:07:34   iphone could be that's why i'm

01:07:36   double x double x yeah double

01:07:38   x oh god please no uh maybe is

01:07:41   there a different way to make

01:07:43   the number like to to represent

01:07:44   the number 20 maybe they could

01:07:46   go for like arabic numbers or

01:07:47   something you know because they

01:07:48   did like our numbers are the

01:07:50   arabic numbers okay well our

01:07:51   numbers are arabic numbers

01:07:52   done what's the roman numerals

01:07:54   double x double x is fine no

01:07:55   triple x you don't want to do

01:07:56   they've done arabic they've done

01:07:57   roman numerals there's another set

01:08:00   that's in the apple watch which

01:08:01   now i now feel silly oh yeah well

01:08:03   i apologize they're not going to

01:08:04   do that because it's not it would

01:08:06   still be 20 that's not going to

01:08:07   happen we only do arabic numerals

01:08:10   and roman numerals here okay well

01:08:12   anyway uh okay the information say

01:08:16   that to help apple get to this 20

01:08:18   27 iphone the 2026 iphone 18 pro

01:08:22   models next year will feature the well

01:08:25   you know what actually the 2027 iphone

01:08:28   won't be the iphone 20

01:08:29   or will it

01:08:32   remember what they did with the

01:08:35   iphone 10

01:08:36   they're gonna do it again yeah i guess

01:08:40   they could because the iphone 10

01:08:41   followed the iphone 8

01:08:43   yeah it did didn't it there was no

01:08:45   nine

01:08:45   they're gonna do it i'll call in it

01:08:47   here they're gonna do it

01:08:48   they're gonna do it

01:08:50   well that was a quick turn by mike

01:08:52   there

01:08:52   no you are and i agree with you i this

01:08:55   wasn't my thing you say that and i

01:08:56   agree with you um that the 2026

01:09:00   2026 iphone 18 pro will feature

01:09:02   under display face id of a cut out for

01:09:04   the selfie camera and then the next

01:09:06   year they get rid of that camera so

01:09:09   then mark german echoed this uh in a

01:09:12   report on bloomberg and said that it

01:09:14   would be quote a mostly glass curved

01:09:17   phone i don't know what curved means

01:09:20   i don't know man what is curved what

01:09:22   was it like a banana like what is what

01:09:25   is a curved iphone now like there's

01:09:28   been you know some android phones like

01:09:30   samsung phones have had kind of like

01:09:33   a glass and it goes around the edges

01:09:35   you know like like so you can see on

01:09:37   the edge of the phone but like right is

01:09:40   that what they're gonna do is that

01:09:41   what a curved phone is or is it

01:09:44   more comfortable so it's got kind of

01:09:45   like a a curve so it's like thicker at

01:09:48   the edges and is it shaped like a

01:09:49   peanut like like it ramps down i don't

01:09:51   know like it's got a peanut or a

01:09:53   banana that's like a little waist in

01:09:55   the middle like what's going on what

01:09:57   are they doing over there we'll find

01:09:58   out only two years to wait soon uh so

01:10:02   as well as this uh we should see

01:10:05   foldable a second generation of a

01:10:07   foldable phone most likely but maybe

01:10:09   the first one it's due for debut in

01:10:10   2026 but it should be about 27 uh

01:10:13   mark german is also expecting apple's

01:10:15   first smart glasses similar to the

01:10:17   meta ray-bans it will be a focus on

01:10:19   audio camera and apple intelligence for

01:10:21   this product airpods to have a camera

01:10:23   llm powered siri and quote a tabletop

01:10:27   machine with a robotic arm that would

01:10:30   feature an ai system of its own

01:10:32   personality obviously robotic arm all of

01:10:36   this in the great future of 2027

01:10:38   um okay great mark german is also

01:10:43   reporting that apple is continuing to

01:10:45   push their work on custom chips for

01:10:47   their devices in a few new areas so one

01:10:50   chip is for the aforementioned smart

01:10:52   glasses because they're going to need

01:10:53   something that is quite different for

01:10:55   this uh they apparently they're taking

01:10:56   the base the apple watch system on a

01:10:59   chip is where they would take their

01:11:00   base from which makes sense but they

01:11:02   want to make a product that is even

01:11:04   more performance efficient and has a

01:11:07   greater battery life or like what

01:11:09   would take less battery power because

01:11:12   that's going to be quite complicated to

01:11:15   get a device to operate all day like

01:11:18   that um especially a device that for

01:11:20   many people who will be wearing it's

01:11:22   not like the apple watch uh if you take

01:11:24   off your glasses to charge maybe you

01:11:26   can't see anymore um which is more

01:11:29   complicated than just hey i'm just

01:11:31   gonna throw my apple watch on the

01:11:33   charger

01:11:34   it allows them potentially to also

01:11:36   come into a market late after meta's

01:11:37   been there for a while with some

01:11:39   features that make people say it was

01:11:43   worth the wait even if it isn't worth

01:11:44   the wait you know building custom

01:11:47   silicon that allows them to maybe

01:11:48   surpass something that meta's doing

01:11:49   uh in some way it's it's like an

01:11:52   excuse to say well we were late but

01:11:54   look at how awesome we are now yeah i

01:11:57   think they should just ship something

01:11:58   now but yeah they don't listen to me

01:11:59   they absolutely should um it would

01:12:02   also be controlling the quote multiple

01:12:03   cameras planned for the glasses um i

01:12:06   guess maybe one on each side i don't

01:12:08   know why i don't know and then this

01:12:10   product is on target for mass

01:12:11   production this chips i should say is on

01:12:14   target for mass production either the

01:12:15   end of this year sorry 2026 or early

01:12:18   2027 um depending on the timing for

01:12:22   this product i could imagine them

01:12:23   announcing this uh in the fall of 26

01:12:26   even if they're planning to ship in 27

01:12:28   risky you know but i think of the

01:12:31   apple watch right did this for the

01:12:32   apple watch now it's in september it

01:12:34   came out in march yeah vision pro when

01:12:37   you've got a brand new product you can

01:12:38   pre-announce it so and i just feel like

01:12:40   this is a product that would benefit

01:12:42   from being uh the iphone presentation

01:12:45   because it's where most absolutely

01:12:46   absolutely absolutely is an iphone

01:12:49   accessory is the way this product is

01:12:50   going to run yep 100 percent uh while

01:12:53   developing this product so the one

01:12:54   which is essentially the meta ray-ban

01:12:56   competitor apple still continues to push

01:12:59   hard being led by tim cook pushing

01:13:01   aggressively uh to try and develop ar

01:13:04   displays for either this product or a

01:13:06   future product uh they want to beat

01:13:08   meta to market yeah and i think this is

01:13:11   this is the start of why i like the

01:13:14   vision pro as a concept is they have

01:13:17   learned a lot with a vision pro and it

01:13:18   sounds like they're going to keep

01:13:19   making vision pro but they're also like

01:13:22   the lessons you once you put a screen on

01:13:25   these glasses whenever that is i think

01:13:28   the lessons you learned with the vision

01:13:29   pro start to come into uh play where you

01:13:33   know because the goal is to learn with

01:13:35   the vision pro from that direction and

01:13:37   then be able to apply it in a much light

01:13:39   more lightweight kind of way

01:13:41   um if you've got sensors if you're doing

01:13:43   gestures whatever it is that you're

01:13:44   doing how you display information um

01:13:48   hopefully you know that that's the

01:13:50   purpose of doing all of this r&d and

01:13:52   putting these products out there is that

01:13:53   there there is a place they want to go

01:13:55   with this stuff that uh you can't get

01:13:58   to right now with modern technology but

01:13:59   they're working they're working to to

01:14:01   get there and who else i mean who else

01:14:04   is doing it met is doing it that's about

01:14:06   it right so if you want that future to

01:14:09   exist you you can it's there for the

01:14:11   taking if you spend the money

01:14:13   and apple's also developing new chips

01:14:16   for the apple watch and airpods for

01:14:18   controlling cameras in both of these

01:14:21   devices by 2027 uh and then for the mac

01:14:26   got the m5 coming in 2026 uh to go in the

01:14:31   ipad pro uh the m6 and m7 are in

01:14:35   development along with a quote more

01:14:38   advanced mac chip in development

01:14:41   okay what that means uh apple's also

01:14:44   working on a dedicated ai server chip

01:14:46   rather than uh mac the mac chips they're

01:14:49   currently using

01:14:49   sure makes sense because they're using

01:14:53   those customized ones right um or

01:14:55   yeah well they're building max they're

01:14:58   building devices that are running the

01:15:00   private cloud compute that are using

01:15:01   existing mac chips and they will build a

01:15:04   a custom uh server chip instead but but

01:15:08   right now they're just using mac chips

01:15:09   because we have lots of things that

01:15:10   they don't need on those servers

01:15:11   because uh they got them they made

01:15:14   them um yeah also i mean m5 in 2026 i

01:15:18   imagine that we're going to get m5

01:15:19   macbook pros in the fall not in 2026 but

01:15:22   we'll see yeah i'm currently trying to

01:15:24   log into bloomberg uh which is always a

01:15:26   thing because you can just never log in

01:15:28   bloomberg will just never let you stay

01:15:30   logged in because i'm wondering when as

01:15:32   soon as i read that i was like i'm not

01:15:34   sure that i wrote that down correctly

01:15:35   i i would say jason i really got

01:15:37   confused today about what year we're in

01:15:39   yeah he says as early as the end of this

01:15:42   year for the m5 to the macbook pro and

01:15:44   ipad so it's the rare 2025 report i meant

01:15:47   to say by 2026 because that's that weird

01:15:49   like how you know as early as early as

01:15:52   m5 in 2025 before 2026 uh sure i failed to

01:15:58   log into bloomberg time and the war

01:16:02   street journal reported today make you do

01:16:04   the captures did they make i just didn't i

01:16:06   just gave up because you bloomberg is like

01:16:08   oh show me bicycles click on motorcycles

01:16:10   show me traffic lights i'm like what are you

01:16:12   doing i have a password and a username i'm

01:16:17   gonna set look what why do these websites

01:16:18   make me log in as often as i have to log

01:16:20   in like why why it's amazing like i i have

01:16:23   no problem paying you i want to pay you i

01:16:25   want to support your work because i uh is

01:16:28   it a great expense for you because i use

01:16:30   your work to inform my work but just

01:16:33   remember my login please please i know

01:16:37   bloomberg is the worst i i also sometimes

01:16:38   get in the space where bloomberg shows that

01:16:40   i'm logged in but won't show me the content

01:16:42   it's like i'm logged out but i am but

01:16:44   it's got hi jason at the top i'm like

01:16:45   what are you doing you're not allowed to

01:16:47   see this no you can't see this no i just

01:16:49   come on the wall street journal is

01:16:52   reporting today that apple is considering

01:16:53   raising prices of the iphone this year

01:16:55   because of tariffs but does not want to

01:16:58   blame the tariffs uh here's the thing uh

01:17:02   the super high tariffs are on hold right

01:17:04   the 125 percent tariff got put on hold

01:17:07   today uh but there are still tariffs i

01:17:09   think a 30 percent tariff in china yeah

01:17:14   it was 20 percent plus the 10 though

01:17:15   isn't it like because the 10 is for

01:17:16   yeah i don't know here's the thing the

01:17:18   tariff thing is confusing but even this

01:17:24   thing that was announced today is a 90 day

01:17:26   thing so the situation is no one knows

01:17:29   what's going on with tariffs so you have

01:17:30   to think about what you're going to do in

01:17:32   a world where they might come back and or

01:17:34   in a world that you're paying more than

01:17:36   you were before so apple is considering

01:17:39   what they might do in that but of course

01:17:43   you're not allowed to say it's because

01:17:45   of the tariffs because then the president

01:17:47   gets real mad at you so you have to

01:17:49   increase it for like who knows why just

01:17:52   stop like we're just increasing it uh the

01:17:54   wall street journal is reporting that the

01:17:56   majority of iphone 18 pro and 18 pro max

01:17:58   models will still be made in china with the

01:18:01   majority of all other models moving to

01:18:03   india the indian supply chain is not

01:18:05   capable of producing more complex models this

01:18:08   is exactly what me and you were considering

01:18:10   would be the case last week when we spoke

01:18:12   about it exactly because what tim cook was

01:18:14   actually saying when he said like oh in you

01:18:17   know obviously in the next quarter these

01:18:18   models are going to be made uh in india is

01:18:21   what these are older phones then so they're

01:18:24   more used to the production but for the

01:18:26   state of the art they still need to be made

01:18:28   in china right and so the more expensive

01:18:31   phones will probably get more expensive with

01:18:33   the next round and they're gonna say hey the

01:18:36   new iphone pro is amazing and it starts at

01:18:39   1299 instead of 999 that they're gonna try and

01:18:44   say its features which i just think feels

01:18:46   tricky because they haven't done this in

01:18:48   previous years but i guess apple's just gonna

01:18:50   hope that everybody knows this is just what

01:18:52   the world is and they can just get away with

01:18:54   i think the question also is what is that price

01:18:58   outside the u.s because it could be lower so will

01:19:04   it be will it be 1299 in the u.s but not in

01:19:08   great britain well or what you can do if you're

01:19:13   smart enough which i hate that this is but this is

01:19:16   happening more you don't put it up that much in

01:19:19   america you put it up everywhere by a smaller

01:19:22   amount and then overall you make the money

01:19:26   yeah and your your your your margins are less

01:19:30   and if you really want to uh not upset the

01:19:35   american government then you put the price up

01:19:38   everywhere right you just like prices up

01:19:39   everywhere tariffs schmaris who knows so now

01:19:42   to be fair the iphone 16 pro right now is from

01:19:48   999 pounds

01:19:50   which is 1299 us dollars yep so you're right

01:20:01   they could totally just leave it where it is

01:20:04   in the uk because the uk is already very

01:20:10   expensive oh but no but i don't think they

01:20:11   would do that i think they will put it up

01:20:13   here too and they would just take the

01:20:15   overall increase across the world to kind

01:20:19   of bump them up they could they could but

01:20:21   they don't necessarily have to they could

01:20:23   they could go 999 in the u.s and the uk or

01:20:27   they could say you're right or they could

01:20:28   say it's 1099 in the u.s um and 1099 in

01:20:34   the uk something like that too and then it's

01:20:37   the same everywhere yeah i don't know i don't

01:20:40   know this is the this is the real question

01:20:42   um that's the real question is is how will

01:20:46   they do this but you're right they what they

01:20:48   won't what they don't want to do is be

01:20:50   perceived as taking a shot at the

01:20:54   administration which is that's what they

01:20:56   don't want to do unbelievably weird it is

01:21:00   but what else should i expect but like

01:21:02   yeah i don't need to get into it it's not

01:21:06   important but it's just like this is where

01:21:08   we are right now you do a thing and then but

01:21:11   you can't talk about why you're doing the

01:21:13   thing because even though it's but everybody

01:21:15   knows but everybody knows yeah what are we

01:21:17   doing yeah what are we doing nothing good

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01:22:18   only jason snow it's true i pay for ecamm live

01:22:22   and use it for six colors streams and total

01:22:25   party kill streams and i love that it is a pure

01:22:29   native mac app it feels really good it works

01:22:33   fast it's got loads of features and they added a

01:22:36   whole bunch of new features the zoom integration

01:22:37   is amazing it's made my job i used to when i used

01:22:42   to do a live stream for total party kill i would

01:22:44   get to be sure to get to my desk a half an hour

01:22:46   before because because the way it works is you

01:22:50   got to get zoom up and you got to carve it up into

01:22:52   little pieces and put those pieces over the people

01:22:54   and make sure their names are not under the box

01:22:56   that's got their video in it and all of that

01:22:58   and now i get there with ecamm live i get there

01:23:01   five minutes before because as people come into our

01:23:04   zoom they automatically populate into their

01:23:07   individual boxes where they're already set and that's

01:23:09   it it like i yeah i i it has made my life so much

01:23:13   easier so it's yeah it's really great software

01:23:15   and when people tell you you know what native mac

01:23:18   software what great mac software is out there that's

01:23:20   come out in the last few years or something like that

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01:24:04   and relay

01:24:05   let's finish out with some ask upgrade questions

01:24:08   didn't get to do any last week gabriel writes in and says i'm thinking

01:24:13   about replacing my old kindle with a kobo besides reading books i'd

01:24:17   also like to keep up with my rss feeds is this possible jason with kobo

01:24:22   no no i my recommendation i it is it's very frustrating i wish that they would do

01:24:33   something like that um the only thing that's close to this on the kobo is that

01:24:39   they've got a thing that's integration uh with um uh what is it it's one of the

01:24:46   relater services that's not instapaper it's the other one it's you know anyway

01:24:53   whatever it's got integration with one of the relater services so you can add it's

01:24:58   pocket right it's pocket

01:24:59   so it you can go to a web page and click a link and it'll

01:25:07   add it to pocket and then you can go on the kobo to pocket and your articles are

01:25:12   there but that's not how i use rss and i i wish they would do this i there was that

01:25:19   great uh verge cast interview with the ceo who said that he he understood that need

01:25:24   and like wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to feed content from the outside into

01:25:31   kobo more directly he agreed but i just i'm not sure it's a priority for them so what i will

01:25:38   say is if you are an e-ink enthusiast who would like something more powerful than a kindle or a

01:25:45   kobo you could buy an android powered e-ink device like the ones from books and it's not it's more work

01:25:54   but there are android rss readers that that will integrate with um the e-ink in a way where it's

01:26:05   decent to read it in e-ink because the big thing what you want is you don't want to scroll because

01:26:09   e-ink frame rates are bad so you want it to be able to like honor your page turn button and have

01:26:14   that turn the page it's not great and i'll tell you i've got a lot of books readers here and i don't do

01:26:19   this i read my rss on my ipad every morning because of this i wish it was better i really do

01:26:25   um i will keep trying but like you rss on an e-ink reader it's just it's an extra step right now and

01:26:32   i wish i wish it weren't but that's unfortunately where we are right now uh yoni writes in and says

01:26:39   mike as a fellow new dad i'm struggling to manage all the photos i could take of my son how are you

01:26:45   handling the photos that you take sharing them with your wife and friends and family are you using a

01:26:50   shared library or shared icloud album what is the hurley way i made a shortcut last night

01:26:55   actually to to count how many photos i've taken this year um last year i took like 3 800 photos

01:27:04   this year i've taken 1 800 photos so i'm taking lots of photos of my baby uh i take photos of my baby

01:27:11   all day all the time what i don't want to do is manage a uh icloud library or we're family i'm not

01:27:19   interested in that so adina and i we have a shared photo library for the pic like we just have a shared

01:27:24   photo library so the pictures that we're both taking we're both getting right and so we both leave sharing

01:27:29   on as default for any pictures that we take and we get them that way that's great for the two of us

01:27:34   um there was like family drama a while ago because of a shared photo library you know like someone's

01:27:44   it was just ridiculous so that oh no moment was like i don't want to be in this uh so we're not doing

01:27:49   this what i did do is i bought my mom an aura frame uh we and we bought one for adina's mom too we bought

01:27:57   a two-pack which is a genius idea but i'm one for two family members and that's how i am that's how i

01:28:05   am mostly giving the photos to the person other than my wife in my life who wants the pictures the

01:28:09   most which is the grandmas other members of the family would just send select images whatever i

01:28:16   actually think that's fine i think that like my brothers don't need a constant stream or really want

01:28:21   a constant stream of photos in the way that my mom what does uh and the aura frames are super nice i'd

01:28:27   seen them on a bunch of podcasts uh as ads and i looked it up and i was looked up wire cutter and

01:28:33   they're also you know as well as being uh endorsed by many podcasters who've received them it's also

01:28:38   like the wire cutter pic is now like aura frames i was very surprised at just how much this digital

01:28:45   photo frame looks like a photo frame like it just looks like a photo frame they're super thin

01:28:51   uh they're really nice looking and the the screens are very nice they're like matte screens like they look

01:28:56   really good and jason their app is unbelievably good you uh you can go into the app and upload

01:29:03   whatever you want it supports live photos which i just thought was great as like a feature but my

01:29:10   favorite thing is you can go into the photos app select a bunch of images they have a share extension

01:29:15   to just send them to the frame and from the share extension you can choose do i want it to go to

01:29:21   both frames attached to the account which is both of our mom's frames or just the one super good like

01:29:28   i i wish they would sponsor because i loved it like i i was blown away at how good an experience the

01:29:36   aura frame was this is the main way i would recommend dealing with this like i my mom appreciates that way

01:29:44   more and then i also send her pictures too right so like i will send her pictures that i like but then

01:29:50   i'll also upload the aura to the aura frame and like she can just she just sees them all the time and

01:29:56   she absolutely loves it and same with like adina's mom she they they both love these things so i really

01:30:02   recommend these uh for gifts for family members so because it has been a big hit um with uh with our

01:30:10   grandparents uh patrick writes in and says that the news that the uh i feel like pouring it out for

01:30:19   the home pod hardware thing was mostly finished but was waiting on software is it fair to say that

01:30:25   apple's software division is letting down the hardware division the same story uh was rumored to have

01:30:30   happened for the vision pro and overall it seemed like apple hardware is hitting home runs where apple

01:30:35   software can't seem to find the ball which is quite a mean metaphor i think at the end but

01:30:40   yeah it does feel like that's the case though right that apple is executing on its hardware

01:30:45   better than it is on its software maybe the company is just set up in such a way that that makes it

01:30:53   easier for them to do i don't know but there does seem to be something going on if i were an apple

01:30:59   executive i would definitely be especially if i was involved in the hardware side i would definitely have

01:31:05   noticed that the hardware people are just going by leaps and bounds going forward and executing

01:31:13   and software is struggling to catch up with them and i'm starting to wonder like what's that dynamic

01:31:19   like are the hardware people really mad at the software people now like because they should be like

01:31:24   they built apparently they built a whole product because they were they were told that it was going to hinge on

01:31:30   all of this kind of personal uh siri control and they never shipped and the product is ready

01:31:37   that is the most stark example but i feel like that we've seen this before that they are just yes this

01:31:44   is the answer is this is this sums up this moment in apple which is their hardware execution has never

01:31:50   been better and their software execution i'm not going to say it's never been worse that's not true

01:31:55   but it is substantially behind the hardware execution yeah i mean look at the ipad that that's the story

01:32:02   of the ipad too right it's been the story of the ipad for ages now although some of that is policy right it's not

01:32:06   all it's not like they can't do it it's that they won't do it but the net result is that the software

01:32:11   has been has been outpaced by hardware for a while now and uh that's where we are yep

01:32:17   john wrightson says the tv os user profiles do anything at all with third-party apps like disney

01:32:23   or amazon it would be great if my kids or partners tv shows did not appear in my personal up next

01:32:29   so to expand on this a little bit tv os you probably don't know tv os has profiles you can

01:32:36   choose between different users and it will show different apps it's like a different it's actually

01:32:41   one of the only products apple makes other than the mac that has a built-in system for profiles that

01:32:48   multiple users can use them there is an api called tv user manager that does this so disney could

01:32:58   integrate their profile system you could link your disney profile with your apple profile so if you

01:33:04   switch between profiles it would change the up next queue the story of tv os i mean lots of apple's

01:33:10   platforms but tv os in a nutshell is there are features available but nobody cares to use them

01:33:16   like i think tv os actually suffers from this way more than even the vision pro or any other platform

01:33:23   of like there's stuff that can be done but nobody wants to do them it's not in anybody's interest to

01:33:30   do them like netflix in the up next queue for example like it's just it does not serve most of these

01:33:36   companies to really take advantage of all the things that the system offers this is one of them and it

01:33:41   would be great right that you would come and you would turn on your profile and all of your shows

01:33:46   are in your up next queue you go to your kids and then all of their shows are in your up next queue and

01:33:50   things don't cross pollinate but that it doesn't i have not seen any examples of people actually

01:33:57   companies actually using this api but it does exist if you would like to send in a question of your own

01:34:03   for us to answer on the show as best we can go to upgradefeedback.com you can also send us in your

01:34:09   follow-up and questions there too i would like to thank our members who support us with upgrade plus

01:34:14   if you would like longer ad free versions of the show each and every week go to getupgradeplus.com

01:34:19   you can find us on youtube by searching for upgrade podcast we're there in video glory if you

01:34:23   would like that i'd like to thank ecamm factor and fitbod for their support of this week's episode

01:34:29   but as always most of all thank you for listening we'll be back next time until then say goodbye jason

01:34:34   snow goodbye mike hurley