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169: John Gruber – State of the Workflow

 

00:00:00   Welcome back to State of the Workflow. On this episode, I'm welcoming John Gruber to the show.

00:00:05   John is the writer behind Daring Fireball, a very influential blog that covers technology but

00:00:10   mostly focused on Apple. John has been writing at Daring Fireball since 2002, and in the last 23 years

00:00:17   has become very influential both to Apple themselves but also to the community around them.

00:00:22   This is because of the quality and thoughtfulness of the work he produces. John is not afraid of

00:00:27   sharing his opinions on any subject, and this can make waves. In this episode, I want to focus on

00:00:32   how John thinks about his work at Daring Fireball and also how he does it. Let's get on with the show.

00:00:37   All right, John, I want to get started by asking, what device in your life is the most important to

00:00:44   you? My MacBook Pro, without question. You know, I hoped you were going to say that, because on the

00:00:50   last episode, I spoke to Austin Evans and he picked an iPhone, and I had people say to me, everyone's

00:00:56   just going to pick an iPhone. And I thought, I'm going to have John on, and I know he's going to

00:01:00   say his Mac, and that's what I hoped. So what MacBook is it?

00:01:03   MacBook Pro maxed out. I think that came out in 2021, and I bought it pretty much right after it

00:01:11   came out, and I got one to review and was like, yeah, this is what I was waiting for. I use it every

00:01:16   day. I don't know if it's the longest I've ever owned a MacBook. I guess not, because when I was

00:01:21   younger, budgetary concerns would have me stretch them out longer. Or going back further, there was

00:01:27   time, like in the early years at Daring Fireball, I had a desktop computer. And when it came out,

00:01:34   an 11-inch MacBook Air that I used for travel that I loved, but would not have wanted to use as my

00:01:41   sole machine hooked up to a display. But I am in a weird position that very few people are,

00:01:47   and I love it. But I get to review new computers every couple months. And so I've reviewed and used

00:01:54   the other new MacBook Pros, the M2, M3, M4. And the M4, last fall, I was like, ah, I should upgrade.

00:02:03   And it was the matte display, nanotexture, which is amazing. And I have the nanotexture studio display

00:02:11   in my office. And in my office, I've written about this at Daring Fireball, the way the sun comes

00:02:16   mainly in the fall and spring, beams of sunlight just hit where my display is. And with this nanotexture,

00:02:24   the studio display, I honest to God, I don't even notice sometimes I have to like hold my hand up,

00:02:28   like Indiana Jones trying to trigger that trap and Raiders of the Lost Ark. And I'm like, oh, my God,

00:02:33   there's a full beam of sunlight on my display. And I can't even tell. And I tested the MacBook with it.

00:02:40   And it's pretty much the same. Maybe it's not quite as good, but it's almost as good. And I was using it

00:02:45   in all sorts of sunny spots in my house. And I love the actual black aluminum finish, as opposed to the

00:02:53   sort of just slightly grayer than silver space gray of my old M1. But then I realized like 95 percentage of

00:03:02   my time I'm at my desk, like I don't use it as a laptop. And that would be the reason to get the

00:03:08   nanotexture. And this is it. After like six weeks of using an Apple M4 with nanotexture review unit,

00:03:18   I went back to my personal M1 Max MacBook Pro from 2021. And every time I've done that in my whole

00:03:28   career of reviewing products, even when it's like a two year old product, when I go back to the old one,

00:03:33   I'm like, oh, this feels slow. That's what makes the new thing feel fast is going back. I went back to my

00:03:40   four year old M1 MacBook Pro and I did not feel any difference at all in my computing life.

00:03:47   No, for people like us, these computers now are just too powerful. You know, there's just so much headroom

00:03:54   that we're not using at all. Like I have a M4 Mac mini and I forget I have a Mac mini and I think to

00:04:01   myself, I have a Mac studio. I don't have a Mac studio. I don't have one of those, but my M4 Mac

00:04:07   mini is as powerful for me as a Mac studio would be for what I do with it. Money runs through my

00:04:13   fingers like water. I love spending money and I wanted that M4. I was a hundred percent sure by the end of

00:04:22   my review that I was going to buy one and figure out a good use for my old M1. And when I went back to

00:04:27   the M1, I hadn't even used it for like a month because like everything was on the review unit

00:04:31   and let it re-sync and catch up on Dropbox and whatever else it needed to do. And when I realized I

00:04:37   could not tell any difference at all, nothing, I was like, I can't justify this yet. But anyway, that's my

00:04:43   main computer. And I would be annoyed if I had to give up my iPhone, but I, in some ways I might become

00:04:50   more productive. I might dig around less on my phone in the morning while I'm drinking coffee and get down

00:04:57   to my office and a few minutes earlier, if the phone were worse, I wouldn't lose much productivity if I

00:05:03   had to switch to an Android or even if by court order, I had to switch to a dumb phone or something.

00:05:08   But my actual work would suffer tremendously if I were using anything other than a Mac.

00:05:15   So is the work the reason the device is important?

00:05:18   Yes, absolutely.

00:05:19   Because that is ultimately for you and your relationship with computers. It's how you use

00:05:25   them to achieve the output for Daring Fireball, right? And without Daring Fireball,

00:05:29   you don't need the computers in the same way.

00:05:30   Yeah. And even for certain things that aren't work related, I'm trying to think of a reason.

00:05:35   I've done a bit of shopping recently.

00:05:37   As you say, the money flows through your hands.

00:05:39   Right.

00:05:40   It would make sense.

00:05:40   And, you know, for things like comparison shopping, it's so much better. Every time I start doing it on

00:05:48   the phone, it's the same way with work, where if I'm in the morning drinking coffee and I think,

00:05:52   I should get down to my office. Instead of, like, making a list of things, oh, I should link to that

00:05:57   today. If I were at my desk, I'd be linking to it from Daring. I wouldn't be making a to-do item to

00:06:03   link to it. I would be doing it.

00:06:05   Right.

00:06:05   And even for personal things, like just comparison shopping, like we have a deck and we'd never

00:06:10   really finished it and we're nearing completion of a long roof deck renovation and we want to get

00:06:17   an outdoor TV. The only thing that's better than shopping for a regular TV is there's way fewer

00:06:22   options. The thing that's worse is they're incredibly expensive compared to indoor TVs.

00:06:28   But for doing something like that, doing it on a desktop with a big display is so much more efficient.

00:06:35   It's just faster. Me as a visual person being able to spread out and see more of a comparison

00:06:42   chart at once. I had ChatGPT do like a deep research thing for me and part of the output of ChatGPT's

00:06:51   thing was a very handy comparison table. But the table they made was so wide that it literally doesn't

00:06:57   quite fit on my studio display in a full screen ChatGPT window. It's slightly because it has so

00:07:04   many columns. Right. And it's the last column where they have like buying links and the URLs

00:07:08   sort of stretch. But it's just nice to be able to see most of that. And it's like, well, I do have

00:07:13   a 27 inch thing in front of me. Why not use it for graphical presentation? It's so much more efficient

00:07:20   for that. So there are certain personal life computer type things that are just better on a Mac.

00:07:26   So for the main part of this episode, what I want to do with you is to dig into and understand your

00:07:32   workflow for writing and publishing to Daring Fireball. So I want to look at specifically how a

00:07:38   big article comes together, like what are the devices you're using for that, the apps you're using for

00:07:42   that. So if we take, for example, the, I would say somewhat infamous article now, something is rotten

00:07:48   in the state of Cupertino as like a, as a framework, right? Like a really big article that I'm assuming

00:07:53   take you a long time to write. And I also assume it's probably pretty well known amongst our audience

00:07:58   at this point, because that article seemed to spread pretty wide was the impression that I got.

00:08:02   And so I wanted to kind of take a look at this as a frame. So when you have an idea for an article

00:08:09   like this, one of your big articles, where does the idea go to begin? Like, is there a place that

00:08:15   you're writing down, you have like a thought in the shower, or you just have an idea and you want

00:08:19   to write it down somewhere? Where is that place?

00:08:21   It's complicated because I follow a quote unquote system that is probably the antithesis of whatever

00:08:33   his name is, getting things done.

00:08:35   David Allen.

00:08:36   Right. Because as I understand it, I remember when that became a sensation, like probably around 2009,

00:08:43   as I recall, I looked into it. And that's never going to work for me for various reasons.

00:08:49   It doesn't work for me either. It does not. It's not in its entirety. Like there are components

00:08:53   of the getting things done system that have now spread everywhere. But the actual whole system

00:09:00   he created, it doesn't work for me either.

00:09:01   Yeah. But I could see why it works for some people. And I think that this whole capture of ideas or

00:09:09   things to do, there's a reason why there's no Microsoft Excel of that genre, right? Like there's a very short

00:09:18   list of apps people use for spreadsheet type things. And for to do's capturing ideas, it's almost hard to

00:09:26   draw a border around the category because it's like, well, that's more of a note tab and that's more of a

00:09:32   thing. But the precept of getting things done that resonated with me was having like one true place to put

00:09:38   your things, right? Or your ideas, like one true place to capture things. And I was like, oh, that sounds

00:09:43   smart. And I follow the opposite of that where I've got like a diaspora of places. If there's one true one,

00:09:52   know, everywhere I go, I carry a pocket notebook, there's a field notes right here. And

00:09:58   more often than not, I might outline more of an article with a pen in a field notes, I certainly wouldn't write

00:10:06   an article, like I don't write longhand, but I can outline with a pen. But sometimes just a couple of ideas, just a page

00:10:15   or two in a tiny little field notes of ideas is enough, or even just a half page is enough, like, ah, I could

00:10:22   look back at that and start writing.

00:10:23   Right.

00:10:24   Where my stuff is the most spread, and I've never found a good solution is where to send bookmarks. And I've sort of

00:10:32   recently settled on a little shortcuts made system I have that I call Totmark. I should write about it on Daring

00:10:40   Fireball and share it because I think other people would find it useful.

00:10:42   You should activate that shortcut right now to remind yourself to do it later on.

00:10:47   It's a shortcut that sends the current Safari title and URL to the first dot in the app Tot, which is a

00:10:56   little notes app that only allows you to have seven notes, which is an interesting constraint. And so note

00:11:03   one dot one and Tot is my list of bookmarks that are just title, return URL, and a couple of blank lines

00:11:11   between them. And then if I if I want to make a couple of other notes about it, it's just plain text. Tot is

00:11:18   just a plain text editor, I will just go to Tot after running the shortcut and jot down if I had thoughts, but it's

00:11:25   totally freeform. There's no structure, there's no fields, it's just a pure little text file. And so you know, if there

00:11:32   are like URLs, something that I want to start an article from, they're often in there, I tend to ignore

00:11:38   them. I have a folder in Apple notes, called fireballs, where there are ideas for articles to write.

00:11:47   So I wonder how long they're going back of like articles that you have ideas for that are unwritten.

00:11:51   There's 282 of them in there.

00:11:54   It's going back a long time.

00:11:55   But that doesn't mean that they're all unwritten. Because if I write one, I don't necessarily delete it.

00:12:01   Sure. Is that how you think of your posts? Do you think of them as fireballs? Is that like a

00:12:06   like a phrase you have in your head?

00:12:07   Sort of. I don't use it on the site at all.

00:12:10   It's just something for you.

00:12:12   Right. So I would say that's the combination. The tot ones are more for my shorter posts,

00:12:18   the link list where I'm linking to one thing. And sometimes I'll send something there that I know

00:12:23   it's I'm not going to link to this from Daring Fireball, but it's something I want to remember.

00:12:30   And I'll just send it there anyway. And I've had dozens of systems and places and things that I've

00:12:38   used over the years for bookmarking. I just abandoned them. You know, like the prototypical bad father who

00:12:45   just goes out for a pack of cigarettes and never comes back and starts a new family a couple states

00:12:50   over. Right. Like I never go back and like export from an old system and import into a new system.

00:12:58   So like my delicious account is still I don't even know if they're around, but I have a pinboard

00:13:03   account, which is the online thing that's sort of a clone of delicious. I think I've got thousands

00:13:08   of bookmarks there, but I haven't used it in years. And I like knowing that they're there. In some ways,

00:13:13   it's like, well, if I haven't needed to look them up in years, why would I want to export them? But

00:13:18   that triumvirate currently of taught with all of them just in one dot in the front and a scrolling

00:13:25   list. And then every night at three in the morning, I have a timed shortcut that adds yesterday's date

00:13:33   to the top of that dot. OK, so I can scroll down and see when I added that. I just did this the other

00:13:39   day where I'd back in May. This is something I've only ever looked at and never said about

00:13:44   tot marked that wired story. Elon Musk's lawyers say he, quote, does not use a computer. And I wanted

00:13:50   to link to it, but I never got around to it. But then it came up again the other day. And I was like,

00:13:54   I knew where it was. I taught it. I don't know. I bookmarked it in tot. And I went over, searched for

00:14:03   musk or something and then found it. But then the date was right there, too. So right there in my

00:14:09   tot so I could see when it was. But that combination, paper, notebook, a folder in Apple notes for

00:14:17   something I want to type. But then otherwise, I just need to get started. I need to open a window

00:14:21   and start writing.

00:14:22   Do you ever have a sense when you get started on an article how long it might be? Like, do you have any

00:14:28   kind of sense of your own, like, you have an idea how many words is it going to take for me to get

00:14:33   this out? Or does whatever happened, happen?

00:14:36   It's a great question. I have a vague sense of it. But it doesn't manifest as like an integer, like

00:14:45   4,000. The other thing is that I'm not quite sure what 4,000 words even means. Like, I've been doing

00:14:53   this a long time. And I know that it's kind of a lot. It's more like when you look at something and

00:15:00   think about whether you're going to be able to pick it up. Like, I buy 20-ounce bottles of fizzy

00:15:05   water that come in a case of 24. That's kind of heavy. Like, I kind of know what that's going to

00:15:11   feel like to pick it up. I could not tell you how many pounds or kilograms that is. I just sort of have

00:15:17   a, ah, I know I can't pick that up with one hand.

00:15:20   You know that feeling in your body, like what that's going to feel like on your arm to grab

00:15:24   that from the ground.

00:15:25   And so I have a sense like that in my mind of how, what an article is going to take. And I'm,

00:15:33   maybe I'm getting better at it after all these years, but I'm still often very wrong. And when

00:15:40   I'm very wrong, it's always because it's much longer than I anticipated. My product reviews often wind up

00:15:46   like that. And I understand that from recording podcasts, right? Like there are some times where

00:15:51   I'll have a topic, I'm like, is this a 15 minute topic? And we're 45 minutes into that topic. Like

00:15:55   that happens often because sometimes you don't know where your brain's going to go. Even if you think

00:16:01   you have an idea of where you want to end up, like the way in which you may kind of spiral out from that.

00:16:05   When you have a sense that an article is going to be bigger, does that change your approach

00:16:12   beforehand? Do you do more planning, more outlining, more research?

00:16:15   No, but I do more procrastination.

00:16:18   Fair, because you know it's going to take a long time.

00:16:20   Right. Because it is sort of like putting off jumping into the ocean or the pool when you know

00:16:27   the water is cold. And it's like, well, maybe I'll sit here and shoot the breeze for a couple more

00:16:33   minutes before I actually do it. Because I have to brace myself because I can simultaneously feel the

00:16:39   need to want to have written it, but I don't want to start writing it. But it doesn't make me do more

00:16:45   outlining for the most part. And ultimately, the actual article often becomes the outline where

00:16:53   I'll have a start and it's the actual opening or what I think is going to be the opening paragraph,

00:16:59   the lead of the article. But if I think of ideas that I'm not ready to write, I haven't gotten to the

00:17:05   point to write at yet. I'll just go to the bottom and just sort of dash off things to get to.

00:17:11   And you'll catch up with yourself eventually, right? Like eventually you're going to get down

00:17:15   to the point where you want to include that in the article and then you carry on.

00:17:17   Right. I am a horrible procrastinator in so many ways. It's a huge deficiency in my personality and

00:17:25   mind. And it's been like that ever since I can remember. But amongst procrastinators of all sorts,

00:17:32   probably the most common thing I've seen written about it is that what happens is you're putting off

00:17:38   A and then when B comes up and B is important, then you do A to put off doing B. The other thing is

00:17:47   a general sense of do the thing. Don't prepare to do the thing. Just do it. It just needs to sit down

00:17:55   and start writing. And anything that feels like I'm working on the article, if I'm working on the article at

00:18:00   all, I might as well just start writing it. When you do write like this, my assumption would be that

00:18:06   you're not like, I'm going to sit down at nine and I'll be done at five. Or like, I'm going to sit down

00:18:12   at nine, five comes around and I'm going to get up. Like from the way that you're talking, it seems like

00:18:16   you'll sit down when you want to start and you'll stay there. Yeah, I think so. And it's very much a flow

00:18:23   state thing. And I write earlier than I used to now that I'm older. I think I was 29 when I started during

00:18:32   Fireball. I wrote a lot very late or even middle of the night. When I was like college and in my 20s, I really

00:18:41   felt my biological clock was almost nocturnal naturally. And in college, I did tons of my writing

00:18:49   like after midnight. And my son was born in 2004. I started Daring Fireball in 2002. But I did tons

00:18:59   of writing when he was like a baby. And I was the parent who happily volunteered for, oh, if the baby's

00:19:08   up in the middle of the night, I'll take this, you sleep just because it suited my sleep cycle. You know,

00:19:13   I've told this story before, but my son was born in January 2004. Markdown, I announced as a public

00:19:20   beta in March 2004. But I'd been working on it since I think it was like October or September 2003.

00:19:27   So I launched Markdown like almost simultaneously with the birth of my son. But one reason that was

00:19:34   possible is huge chunks of the end of it and all the documentation. I remember writing in the middle of

00:19:39   the night with him on my lap. And I was writing the website and documentation and finishing up the

00:19:47   last changes to the syntax and my implementation in Perl with him on my lap at like four in the morning.

00:19:54   I can't do that anymore.

00:19:55   I can absolutely empathize with this. So we, you know, we had a first order nearly six months ago now.

00:20:04   And I decided to start blogging because I was just sitting in a chair. And it's like,

00:20:09   this is something I can do very easily from any device that I have with me. But because I also do

00:20:16   very much enjoy the, I'll just sit with her for a couple of hours, like no problem here, you know?

00:20:21   So I know that feeling.

00:20:22   Yeah, it was great. But I've realized, and now I'm in my early 50s, realized in my 40s that

00:20:30   I get up earlier naturally anyway. But I also, it's just aging. I run out of steam

00:20:38   sooner than I did. And I have a very obvious tell of when I'm too tired to be writing,

00:20:45   which is that I start making homonym typos.

00:20:50   Like there, there, and there, like those kinds of things?

00:20:52   Yeah, yeah. There and there is one that I'll catch myself making. I don't really read as I go.

00:20:58   But if I go back and catch myself making one, and if you ever spot a homonym typo on Daring Fireball,

00:21:04   I'll bet it's late in the day, East Coast time.

00:21:06   Now people know, right? If I ever find one, John was up late.

00:21:10   I mean, I do make typos, but homonym typos in particular, it's just a sign of tiredness.

00:21:16   And I have a terrible habit of, like you said, like, do I get up at five and say I'm done? No.

00:21:22   Like once I'm in the flow, I want to keep going. But what happens, I'll notice, when I'm in the flow,

00:21:29   I know that I'm making progress. But I absolutely positively lose track of time terribly. I mean,

00:21:35   that's part of the joy of getting in the flow for me. But as it relates to like being on time for dinner,

00:21:43   or any other real life obligations, it's not helpful. But I will notice often, you know,

00:21:53   maybe it's eight, nine at night. Last time I looked at my watch was 730. Now it's nine o'clock,

00:21:59   and I'm still on the same paragraph. I should have stopped at 730. But I don't realize that. And 90

00:22:06   minutes go by. And I don't know it's 90 minutes where I just sat there. And I think if somebody had

00:22:10   like a surveillance camera of me, they think, what's wrong with this man?

00:22:13   Do you agonize over word choice? Like, is that something that you get stuck up on? Or do you deal

00:22:18   with that later? Like, are you very particular?

00:22:21   I have always, I mean, literally, since childhood, always tried to write my final draft, right off the

00:22:31   bat, especially the longer the article, the more editing I do for myself. But I can't bring myself to

00:22:39   write other than thinking that I'm just going to start typing with the first word and get to the

00:22:47   final word and just hit publish. Like, the canonical ideal for me would be to not even proofread

00:22:55   and just write what I think it's going to be and hit return. So I, at every step, every single word of

00:23:03   the way I'm trying to pick the right word. And so yes, I obsess over word choice.

00:23:08   Do you do all of your own editing?

00:23:10   Yes.

00:23:11   Do you like that?

00:23:12   I can't imagine how else I would do it. I think back to the newspaper and magazine era. And there are

00:23:20   ways that my writing obviously would be improved with somebody, especially somebody who I really trust

00:23:26   has a good year to run everything through. But for the most part, like when I have ever written for

00:23:34   anybody else, I'm more frustrated by their editing. You know, like when I wrote occasional back page

00:23:39   columns for Macworld, it was the strict length limit that was really the problem.

00:23:46   Cause it was a magazine, right? Like it was actual physical magazine. So this space.

00:23:50   Right. And they had rules that kind of irritate. I understood them, but like that there had to be a

00:23:56   block quote that was pulled out. You know, there's a headline, there's the author's picture,

00:24:01   and then there had to be a block quote, you know, something pulled from the middle to give like a

00:24:07   flavor of the article, you know, which I understand. And I like when I'm reading magazines,

00:24:11   but there were times where it's like, I really hate cutting more words out of this. Can't we just

00:24:15   take that block quote out? The New Yorker doesn't use block quotes and it's like, no,

00:24:18   we have to have one. So yes, I do my own editing. I don't enjoy it, but I don't know what else to do.

00:24:24   And I'm trying to find typos, of course, and just silly mistakes, but for article articles,

00:24:33   I always print them and staple them.

00:24:38   And I hoped you were going to say that actually.

00:24:40   It's something I picked up at college when I was at the student newspaper at Drexel that we just had

00:24:47   an unending stream of red pens, the Bic ballpoints, which I wouldn't use in a million years today.

00:24:54   But all articles back then, we've always were printed. It was like a procedure. We'd hand them

00:24:59   off to several editors. The editors would put their initials on them. And it does age me in some ways.

00:25:04   I don't think my son has ever printed an article or essay that he was going to hand in. But I find

00:25:11   the context switching of that to be the most important part. And it's amazing to me, like when

00:25:17   you miss the word to like going to the market, and you might in the flow to type going the market,

00:25:25   I'll leave out a little word while typing to keep up with my thoughts. And I can reread that sentence

00:25:31   on my screen over and over again. And my brain just fills in the word. And a lot of times,

00:25:36   if I print it out, I will see it.

00:25:38   Do you ever tried something like an iPad, an Apple Pencil for this kind of thing?

00:25:41   Or it's just like the pen and paper is just that's your way?

00:25:44   Yeah, it's my way. I like the physicality of it. And I actually keep those when I print out

00:25:51   long articles and edit them. It's a very hefty stack of paper that resonates with me. Like,

00:26:00   hey, that's a body of work right there. And that's only my long articles, right? You know,

00:26:04   when everything you produce is ends up just being ones and zeros, you know, even on podcasts,

00:26:10   you could measure our podcast careers in hours, right? It pretty easily. And I'm sure for both of

00:26:17   us, it's, wow, that's a lot of hours. But there's something about picking it up.

00:26:23   Well, every episode is like a two or three CD set, right? Like, isn't what we're looking at here?

00:26:28   So, you know, if my printer were broken, that's probably what I would do, though,

00:26:33   is I would print to a PDF and then open the PDF on my iPad and use my pencil.

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00:28:48   cortex. You'll get 10% off your first purchase and show your support for the show. Our thanks to

00:28:52   Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay. Do you ever send drafts of your articles

00:28:58   to trusted people for feedback before you publish them?

00:29:02   Yes, but extremely rarely. So rarely that I can't remember the last time that I did it.

00:29:09   Because that's the thing a lot of people do. I wonder, because I'm assuming lots of people share

00:29:14   them with you, like in your friend group. Do you feel like you don't want to water down your idea?

00:29:20   Like what is it that makes you keep them too close to your chest?

00:29:22   These are such good questions, Mike. I feel like I'm in therapy though.

00:29:26   That is a little bit what this is like. And it is how I'm setting it out.

00:29:29   There's a couple of factors there. A, if there was somebody in particular whose thoughts on a

00:29:35   particular issue, and that's why I wouldn't say that I've never done it, then I will get their

00:29:39   feedback. But usually that's for a specific point or specific perspective.

00:29:43   Like a subject matter expert of some description.

00:29:45   Yeah, like am I way off on this? Like if I were writing about LLMs where I don't feel like I know

00:29:51   I might send it to somebody who I know knows it way better. Or if I'm speculating about what

00:29:57   something was like inside Apple, I might send it to a former Apple employee who I know was there

00:30:03   and ask about that section. But I just don't do it that often. One reason is I just hate to impose

00:30:08   on other people. It's just a natural thing. It kind of hurts me every single time I invite anybody to be

00:30:14   on the talk show because I don't know what people think, but I feel like, oh my God, here I am asking

00:30:19   for two and a half hours of somebody's time and putting the pressure on them of high listenership

00:30:25   in our little sphere of the media world. But then I think ultimately it is that I've never liked

00:30:35   sharing my things until I feel like they're done. Like I don't like showing in progress work

00:30:42   of any kind. Even when I was a kid, I just didn't like doing it. And then when I feel like I have

00:30:51   finished it to my satisfaction, like, yeah, there, this feels done. And I've done an editing pass.

00:30:58   If I feel like it's good enough, I'm just going to publish it. Like, why would I ask anybody else's

00:31:03   opinion? I trust my own judgment on, hey, this is okay. So strongly that I'm like, well, what am I

00:31:11   waiting for? I have this urge to publish it. Like, I feel like it's done. I want it out there. You know,

00:31:17   this is one of those things that is so great about the racket I've set up for myself and the web and

00:31:25   owning my own thing and being the one who gets to say when it's ready to go that I don't have to wait.

00:31:31   I talked to Patrick McGee, the Financial Times reporter who wrote the bestselling and highly

00:31:36   regarded Apple in China book that came out a few months ago. He finished that book in like October

00:31:42   or September, and it didn't come out until like early May. You've got to slot into the publisher,

00:31:48   right? Like whenever they have that space and they want to do it for you, then that's when you're going

00:31:51   to go. That would drive me crazy. It really would. It would just drive me absolutely nuts,

00:31:58   that interstice between finishing. And I know it would take time after finishing a book-length

00:32:04   manuscript for editing to be done. But like the way the publishing world works, it's so long. And it

00:32:10   was the same way with magazines. Like the lead time on Macworld magazine was so long, that period would

00:32:16   just bother me.

00:32:17   I guess similarly, you know, it was often a joke that you make and I think the others make about you

00:32:22   is that there'll be an embargo time for an iPhone review and you may be a few hours late because it's

00:32:27   like you kind of will work to your own time to get across what you need to get across and you won't

00:32:33   sacrifice the article's quality for that time.

00:32:37   Yeah. Deadlines are very, very problematic for me. They really just are. I mean, that Douglas Adams,

00:32:43   I love deadlines, particularly the swooshing sound they make as they race over my head,

00:32:48   whatever. I'm butchering his wonderful quote, but the sentiment, I'm like, yeah, that's me.

00:32:53   It seems like a shtick, but it's a bad combination of my innate procrastination where I start those

00:32:58   reviews too late combined with, I'm not going to publish it until I think it's done, but also

00:33:05   combined with, I think, too tight period that we get to review these products. I don't want to

00:33:13   completely absolve myself of the personal failure of the procrastination angle, which really is sort

00:33:21   of a matter of willpower and knowing yourself. And come on, I'm 52. I should know myself by now. I

00:33:27   should know when I need to start writing a review that I want to come out Tuesday morning.

00:33:32   But if I only got the device last Wednesday, how early can I start writing? And combine that with

00:33:40   the other thing I mentioned on the show already, which is that when I start writing, I feel like I'm

00:33:46   writing the real thing. You know, I could do like benchmarks if I'm going to do benchmarks of speed or

00:33:51   performance as part of the review and do some of the work without doing the writing.

00:33:57   but at some point I kind of need to have, how do I want to start this? What's the framework? What's

00:34:03   the narrative? What's the angle on this review? Because I guess that's what makes it a little bit

00:34:08   different for you, I think, with your reviews. And it's why people, including me, like them so much is

00:34:12   that you're not doing a speeds and feeds kind of review with these products.

00:34:17   I use benchmarks less and less as the years go on.

00:34:20   Where a kind of more nuts and bolts tech website can just kind of review the function of the device

00:34:28   where you're trying to find a story to tell. And that is harder because there's, I mean, for many years,

00:34:36   there aren't so many stories. And so like, you've got to really tease out what is interesting to you to

00:34:41   write about, I assume. Yeah. And you had asked earlier about, do I know how long things are going

00:34:47   to be? The reviews are usually the ones where my estimates are usually the, often the most far off.

00:34:54   It's almost a running gag now on dithering where if it's an episode before the embargo, like the part of

00:35:02   the embargo is you're not supposed to publicly say you have the device. So it's not on the episode of

00:35:07   dithering, but I'll be talking to Ben, you know, either in our little pre-show or post-show,

00:35:11   he'll say like, how's the review going? I'll say, I, you know, this one is so iterative over the last

00:35:17   one. I don't think it's going to take very long. The M2 iPad air, I don't know. And it's like the M1,

00:35:23   but it's a little faster, you know, I'll surprise myself and find an angle, like a rich vein of a story

00:35:32   and boom, there's 3000 words. And it took a long time. And it comes down to an important point that

00:35:39   I believe defines all of my work or at least my writing work, but it does define why I will never,

00:35:45   ever, ever not see myself as a writer who podcasts and not a writer slash podcaster. I am a writer and

00:35:54   so much better at it. And it frustrates me to no end that I cannot podcast. I can't speak extemporaneously

00:36:00   with anywhere near what I perceive as the fluency and coherency of my writing, but it's that writing

00:36:08   is thinking and to truly have thought about something. I need to write it. I need to write

00:36:16   it in full sentences in a narrative sense. And only then have I truly known that I've thought about it.

00:36:24   And it's because there's often just like little yada, yada, yadas. I know the beginning in the end,

00:36:31   and I kind of, I got it. And it's like, yeah, it's this, then this, then this, and then that.

00:36:36   But then sometimes one of those, this is in the middle is like, well, wait to really consider this.

00:36:42   This is going to take like a couple thousand words just for a thing. I will come to a different

00:36:47   conclusion than I set out to write. Once I start writing it, I realize, huh, maybe I'm wrong about

00:36:54   this. And then I kind of have to backtrack and almost rewrite the article. But it's only by writing

00:37:00   it that I know that. When it comes to publishing, do you press publish and walk away?

00:37:08   I shouldn't. I mean, it's so bananas to me that so many people are hesitant to report

00:37:14   mistakes and typos that people have internalized that it's sort of rude to point out that somebody's

00:37:20   made a mistake. Whereas I desperately want to hear about them and often tell people say, I'll bet

00:37:25   10 people have told you this, but you must be missing a word here in this sentence. And I always say,

00:37:31   I'd rather hear about the same mistake 10 times than not hear about it at all, because all 10 people

00:37:37   assumed there must be 10 other people who wrote it. And so there's a handful of super copy editors

00:37:45   who read my site. Chris Pepper, who reads several other blogs in our sphere and must read at a

00:37:53   phenomenal words per minute rate. But he's got to be number one. But there's a handful of other friends

00:37:58   who sent hundreds, maybe thousands of typos. And they tend to be fans of the site. I don't know if

00:38:06   they have notifications set up, but they also tend to send them quickly after publishing. And so I should

00:38:12   pay attention to those things. So I try to, I'm not like repulsed by the, like with, with the podcast,

00:38:19   I don't do my own audio edit. I can't listen to myself. I've listened to very few hours of the talk

00:38:25   show over the decades I've been doing it. And if I had to edit it myself, I don't know, the show would

00:38:33   probably end. But the writing I can live with, I feel good about. So I don't mind it. The problems are

00:38:38   like, if I have like a thing to go to, you know, like, I know, me and the family, we're going to

00:38:44   leave at noon, and be out of the house all afternoon. And it's like, I want to finish this up in the

00:38:50   morning. And it's like, I'm racing, I know, we've got to be in the car by noon. And it's like, I got

00:38:55   it's like 1145. I got it. I'm done. Publish, go to the bathroom, get something to drink, load up the

00:39:01   car and go and then find out on my phone at three that there's a glaring mistake. It's like, ah,

00:39:08   God, why did I publish that before I was going to be going on a long car trip?

00:39:12   And those are probably the mistakes that are not typos.

00:39:15   Right, right.

00:39:16   They're the worst ones. Like, oh, I got something completely wrong.

00:39:19   Right. This seldom happens anymore, for good reasons. But like a markdown

00:39:23   formatting error that leaves part of the article commented out or something. I don't

00:39:28   know. But no, I try to pay attention. And the more interesting the article is, the more I'm

00:39:33   intrigued by what people think about it.

00:39:34   Do you spend much time promoting articles?

00:39:37   No.

00:39:38   You don't think about that? Like you'll post them to Blue Sky Mastodon and just leave it? Or

00:39:43   do you not even do that?

00:39:44   Again, it's because I want to own my own technical stack. I know there's a dozen services that you

00:39:50   could just point the RSS feed at the service and give it the credentials for your social media and

00:39:56   it'll post them for you. But I wrote my own many years ago for Twitter because I wanted control over

00:40:04   I set mine up so that it doesn't post articles. I think it's five or 10 minutes so that if I accidentally

00:40:12   publish something, I can take it down and I know it won't already be tweeted out there. And I have

00:40:16   like a five or 10 minute period to fix mistakes before it gets tweeted out. But then there are other

00:40:22   things that my script does, like when Twitter had 140 character limit. Every once in a while,

00:40:28   I like to use an ostentatiously long headline, which often far exceeds 140. In fact, I've had some that

00:40:36   exceed the 280 of the new Twitter. I wanted to write my own truncation algorithm. Like how do I

00:40:43   truncate the headline to fit? But then the Twitter API broke. So the at daring and I, you know, X is

00:40:50   garbage so many ways, but that broke when under Elon two years ago, when they changed certain APIs,

00:40:59   the API I was using broke. So my script currently only really works for Mastodon. I don't post to

00:41:05   threads or blue sky automatically. When I write a good article that are something I think is good,

00:41:10   I will paste it to blue sky and threads, but that's about it. I don't know how else I even would

00:41:16   promote it. For example, one thing that I should, I guess, do more promotion of there's like my annual

00:41:22   live episode of the talk show. I guess people who are good at YouTube know how to promote it and they

00:41:31   make clips and post those to tick tock and stuff like that. I don't do that. We did more of that last

00:41:38   year than ever. And it wasn't me. It was my friends at sandwich who do the production and the editing

00:41:44   made a bunch of tall social media clips and I posted them to a couple of places. Did it make

00:41:51   a difference? I don't think so. It's what people say you should do. I don't know. I mean, you know,

00:41:57   YouTubers that I know, they have success from it, but you're still at the mercy of the algorithm. I

00:42:02   think just publishing the occasional one doesn't do it immediately. Yeah. And it is sort of the privilege

00:42:08   of being well-known or as known as I am in the sphere that I'm writing for that I feel like I

00:42:15   don't have to promote it. The people who I'm trying to reach already know where I am and they either like

00:42:21   my stuff and subscribe to the RSS feed or whatever, or they don't know who I am and they don't want to.

00:42:29   And I know that what I write, if it's good enough and if it resonates, it'll get picked up

00:42:34   at other places and they'll do the promotion for me. So obviously in saying that, I think rightly,

00:42:41   you're aware of your impact or your influence. You know that the things that you say carry weight.

00:42:49   And like, if we go back to the article that we're set out at the beginning, this is one of those ones

00:42:55   that probably will be an all-timer for you. Something is rotten in the state of Cupertino.

00:42:58   It made an impact. I mean, how much impact can we know? It's hard to know. Maybe you have a better

00:43:04   sense of it than most. Maybe I'm sure you've heard things that people have spoken to. Do you ever,

00:43:09   and maybe even looking at this article, when you're writing things, do you ever contemplate the impact

00:43:15   that you have on the companies that you cover? Does that crush your mind?

00:43:19   It's difficult. I think I'm naturally humble. I'm not religious, but, you know, I was brought up Catholic

00:43:25   and it's sort of, some of that is from that upbringing. My parents, especially my dad, I think

00:43:33   encouraged success, but also humility. That there's a certain combination of being a gracious winner

00:43:41   when you're playing sports and a gracious loser as well. And I am more aware of it. To be honest,

00:43:48   though, because of that, I probably underestimate my influence. And I think that is, though, to my

00:43:54   benefit. My favorite example of it isn't about the companies or the products I cover, but it was a

00:44:02   shtick that I ran for many years, the Jackass of the Week. It felt like it was a good title for somebody

00:44:11   who wrote an article or expressed an opinion that I think fairly could be described as being a jackass.

00:44:18   And I think that was part of what people like about my writing and about Daring Fireball, that instead

00:44:25   of saying, oh, I think that this person, you know, being very polite and deferential, and I disagree

00:44:29   subtly with this point. I think they like the fact that I would just say, this guy's being a jackass by

00:44:34   saying Tim Cook should be fired in 2013, you know, like two years into his term. I think they like that.

00:44:41   And I would like it as a reader. But what I realized, somebody pointed out at some point,

00:44:45   it wasn't the person. It was somebody who I think I only mentioned once on the site. But somebody wrote

00:44:50   me an email and said that so-and-so, if you Google this person's name, the first hit is my article,

00:44:59   jackass of the week, this person's name.

00:45:02   That's not great, is it?

00:45:03   Yeah, that's not right. Like, I wish I could remember the specific thing. I think I don't remember it

00:45:09   because my psyche is like, oh, that's kind of awful. But it was a moment I remember. I don't remember

00:45:16   the person, but I remember the moment and I sort of dropped the shtick at that point. And I might have

00:45:21   gone back and even edited that article to give it a different title. I think I did. But I stopped for the

00:45:27   most part. I only ever dredged that up again in the last 10 years, maybe in truly egregious cases.

00:45:35   When I started the shtick, a Daring Fireball article would never, ever have been the top hit for

00:45:41   somebody's name, no matter who they were. But then I realized, oh man, a lot of times my stuff does come

00:45:46   up first. But I try, and I do think it's part of why I have some longevity at this, is that once I get

00:45:54   going, I don't feel like what I'm doing now in 2025, is that different than what I was doing 20 years ago in

00:46:03   2005. And I don't feel while I'm writing that my influence is greater now than then, even though it is. In my

00:46:12   mind, I'm doing the exact same thing to the exact same audience for the exact same reasons. And if it has more

00:46:18   influence now, so be it. But I just try to be fair. But there are cases like that, where I won't do

00:46:24   that. I have to tone it down a little. When it comes to like the something rotten piece, I underestimated

00:46:30   how influential that piece was. I knew it was a tidy little argument, even though it's 4000 words. And it

00:46:37   felt very satisfying. And I was like, this is something. But it was more of a thing than I anticipated.

00:46:45   And that's good, I think, because I think if I had anticipated the magnitude of how it would resonate,

00:46:52   it might have tempered the way that I wrote about it.

00:46:57   Yeah, you may have gotten in your head about it a little bit.

00:46:59   Yeah. And I have an ability to stay out of my head about it and to not think about it. I don't know that

00:47:05   they read everything I write, but I certainly know that almost everybody or everybody at Apple reads what

00:47:10   I write or whatever other companies I'm writing about. And I have this ability to just sort of

00:47:15   tone it out and pretend like I'm not going to see Jaws at WWDC in June, and he's going to talk to me

00:47:22   about it. I can tell you the first time I really realized that the first time was WWDC 2007.

00:47:34   January 2007 is the iPhone is introduced. The end of June 2007 is when the iPhone is coming

00:47:40   out. WWDC was like mid June. So it's a year before the App Store. And it's also weeks before the iPhone's

00:47:49   even out. And it's months before the Steve Jobs announcement, like, okay, fine, we'll make it an

00:47:55   SDK for native third party apps. But at WWDC, the developer conference where we were all thinking like,

00:48:01   will they announce an SDK? And Scott Forstall said they had a sweet solution for outside developers to

00:48:09   write apps for the phone. And it was Safari, right, make a web app in Safari. And they had a couple of

00:48:16   resources to download to make web apps that kind of sort of looked like generic native iOS 1.0 apps,

00:48:26   which actually weren't even like the good apps, right? None of the good apps really looked like that

00:48:30   settings did. You know, you could make an app that looked like settings or contacts at the time.

00:48:35   I, in my thoughts and observations on the keynote, wrote, I called that a quote, sandwich. And people

00:48:44   remember that to this day, right? Because it was sort of a setup, right? Like, hey, we've got a sweet

00:48:50   solution for you. And everybody got really excited. And it was really a terrible answer.

00:48:54   I mean, luckily, you chose two words that also alliterated the same, which I think is helpful for it sticking

00:49:01   in the brain.

00:49:02   It's 2007. These are still early years of Daring Fireball. I did have a press pass for the keynote.

00:49:09   But when WWDC was an in-person conference, the media passes for the keynote were always bad,

00:49:17   a certain color. There was a separate line for us to get in. We weren't part of that line of attendees that

00:49:24   would snake around Moscone or the San Jose Convention Center in later years. And then we'd

00:49:31   have seats and a section in the big keynote hall for the morning, the big keynote. And then they would

00:49:37   flush everybody out of Moscone. And there was no way as a member of the media to stay even for the

00:49:45   State of the Union that happens after the lunch. So I had a press pass. And then, you know, the press pass

00:49:51   might also, depending if you get invitations, you might get those briefings after the keynote.

00:49:56   But then, you know, by lunchtime, everybody with a media pass is out and you don't get back in.

00:50:01   But I wanted to stay for the whole week, but I didn't have $4,000 or whatever it was.

00:50:08   So I, for a few years in that era, 2006, 7, 8, I don't know which years, but I had friends at Apple who at the way the Apple badges worked for Apple employees who would be coming in and out throughout the week is they didn't have their names on their badge.

00:50:25   They just had badges that said Apple engineer and they just have a bunch of them.

00:50:30   And sometimes people who work at Apple, you know, it's sort of a big deal to get up from Cupertino to San Francisco.

00:50:36   And the way it works, you're an Apple engineer and you might think, hey, Tuesday, I'm going to try to swing up to Moscone and see some sessions or something like that.

00:50:44   But the nature of their work might be, oh, there's an emergency on Tuesday.

00:50:48   They can't go.

00:50:48   So they just have a pile of those Apple or they used to have a pile of those badges and a friend just let me have one.

00:50:55   So I had an Apple engineer badge that I could walk around for the week.

00:51:00   And what I would do, because it was conveniently only printed on one side, is I'd wear the lanyard so that the badge was backwards.

00:51:09   And so it just sort of looked blank, but I could flash it at the guards to get into Moscone and to go up the escalator.

00:51:15   But I was there the rest of the week for a few years, usually, or I forget, maybe there were other ways I sort of scanned my way in before I started paying for a proper pass that would last the week, which I did as soon as I could afford it.

00:51:28   But it was Tuesday, the day after the keynote.

00:51:32   And I was in Moscone with that Apple engineer badge, just going to sessions.

00:51:38   And I was on the third floor and I think it was lunchtime and there was a break and everybody's going to the escalators.

00:51:45   And right behind me was Phil Schiller and Ron Okamoto, who used to run developer relations with each other.

00:51:53   And I had never met Phil before, but I thought, well, here's my chance.

00:51:59   I should introduce myself.

00:52:00   But I thought, f*** the badge.

00:52:04   I glanced down on the escalator, saw that my badge was backwards.

00:52:08   And so I turned around and I said to Phil, I had just held out my hand and said, hey, I'm John Gruber.

00:52:16   And, you know, not knowing if he'd be like, who are you?

00:52:20   But he knew exactly who I was and said, hey, great to meet you.

00:52:26   I got to tell you, I disagree that that was a s*** sandwich.

00:52:30   That's how Phil introduced himself to me.

00:52:34   So not only I'm thinking he probably knows John Gruber.

00:52:37   I don't know.

00:52:38   But and again, people didn't know what I looked like at the time because I don't have my photo on the site.

00:52:42   And in that era, people would often be like, wow, you don't look anything like what I expected.

00:52:46   So there's a very good chance that Phil did have no idea what I looked like at the time.

00:52:51   But he not only knew my name, but threw the s*** sandwich line at me in a gracious Phil Schiller way.

00:52:58   And then we had a delightful, not just how you doing, but like a nice little 10 minute conversation off the record right there about I even remember it was mostly about the enterprise stuff that they announced at WWDC for the iPhone,

00:53:13   which at the time surprised me that they were already, before the device was even out, announcing ways to integrate with the stuff from the BlackBerry world.

00:53:22   But ever since then, I've thought, oh, they read me.

00:53:27   Phil Schiller reads me.

00:53:28   That's a very long way of saying I am aware that I get read to the top levels at Apple, but I hopefully write by pretending that they don't.

00:53:37   It probably helped that that first interaction went the way that it did, that you said something quite aggressive, I guess, for lack of a better word.

00:53:48   And they immediately acknowledged it, but treated you well.

00:53:54   Yes.

00:53:54   That may have helped in your then, okay, I'm free to say what I want, and it's not going to necessarily change the way in which the people I'm talking about consider me.

00:54:06   Yeah, maybe, but even if it hadn't, it wouldn't have changed what I did because I was never seeking access.

00:54:12   It was great that I started getting the media passes to the keynote at the time, and it felt like a thrill.

00:54:19   And I think Jason even helped me.

00:54:20   I know it was friends at Macworld who sort of put me in touch initially in 2005 or 6, whenever I first sort of reached out to Apple PR to see if I could get a media credential.

00:54:31   And that was at a time where an independent thing like Daring Fireball, a blog, or whatever you want to call it, were not very often media credentialed.

00:54:39   But they were so new, of course, somebody had to be in the first group and sort of blaze the trail.

00:54:44   But you didn't know if Apple was ever even going to acknowledge them, right?

00:54:49   And they still clearly had a justified preference for the old school print media of the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, USA Today, and Time Magazine.

00:54:58   They still do to a degree, right?

00:55:01   Like there are types of media that they tend to prefer over others at different times.

00:55:07   And that can even be like, we just want YouTubers right now for this event or whatever it might end up being.

00:55:13   Yeah, but there's something rotten piece and, you know, the way it's turned out with WWDC and everything is, you know, exemplifies it.

00:55:20   But I've always thought it would be nice to get the media passes.

00:55:25   It's nice that I get additional things like the post-event briefings with executives and product marketing people for the things.

00:55:34   It's great that I get review units of various products.

00:55:38   But I don't need any of that.

00:55:41   And I have always been very conscious of that and have always, like, it's not like a sudden realization in 2025 because I wrote a scathing article in March or whatever you want to describe it.

00:55:54   I've set myself up that way every step of the way since starting Daring Fireball.

00:56:00   That, you know, it would be great to have some kind of official press relationship with Apple or anybody else.

00:56:06   But I don't need it to write and do what I do.

00:56:09   I could still review everything.

00:56:10   I wouldn't be able to review stuff to hit the embargo before they ship.

00:56:14   But anything I think is sufficiently interesting, I could just buy and review.

00:56:19   And so many people, for years, when they thought I wasn't being hard enough on Apple, that they would accuse me of soft peddling because I want to protect my annual WWDC onstage interview with Apple executives.

00:56:34   I generally don't acknowledge stuff like that or it's pointless to argue with people like that.

00:56:39   But if I try to refute it, I would just say that one show a year hardly makes me any more money than a regular episode of the podcast after I've paid out all the stuff.

00:56:50   It's not a very profitable thing.

00:56:52   I like that I got to do it.

00:56:54   I hope to get to do it again.

00:56:55   But there's no aspect of it that I need them for.

00:56:58   So if they ever just want to totally cut me off, it shouldn't really affect what I write on the site at all.

00:57:03   And it's always it's who am I doing it for?

00:57:06   For the readers.

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00:59:19   Thanks to FitBod for their support of this show and Relay.

00:59:22   How do you handle criticism from your audience?

00:59:26   Like if people disagree with you, whether it can be a small amount or a large amount of your audience or whether people are emailing you nasty things.

00:59:35   How do you handle that, especially considering you've been doing this for so long?

00:59:39   Like does it change?

00:59:40   How do you feel about these kinds of things?

00:59:41   The main way it's changed is that to me the peak of interacting with readers was when Twitter was at its best, like maybe 2010 to 2015.

00:59:51   Because it was the one true place for Twitter-like interaction.

00:59:55   And I don't want to say I'd argue with people, but I had more regular back and forths with people who disagree with me, whether on a detail or whether you're 180 degrees wrong.

01:00:08   But I read it.

01:00:09   I think it's part of what makes me suited to what I do.

01:00:12   I have a naturally thick skin and a confidence in what I do.

01:00:19   There's a slogan, it's at one of my favorite restaurants, a steakhouse here in Philadelphia, but there's locations across America, Del Frisco's.

01:00:26   But behind the bar, I think it's at every location.

01:00:29   I've been at several.

01:00:30   The slogan just reads, do right and fear no man.

01:00:33   I feel like that's how I've always written the site.

01:00:36   I stand behind everything.

01:00:38   I try to stand behind everything that I write.

01:00:40   I never write anything for attention.

01:00:43   I never write anything to be clickbaity.

01:00:46   And because I stand behind it, I don't have any insecurities about it.

01:00:51   But I'm also fiercely of the mind that I know I'm a human.

01:00:57   I know and I've made many mistakes over the years.

01:01:00   And so I don't think I'm infallible.

01:01:02   I'm sure that I make mistakes.

01:01:04   And what I want to do is identify the mistakes and correct them.

01:01:07   And I've said this over the years, like one of my philosophies is I try to make as few mistakes as possible.

01:01:13   But I want to learn and understand the mistakes I do make and then correct them or write a follow up that acknowledges the mistake and that that's the closest anybody could actually get to being correct all the time is try to be correct from the start and be open minded and try to listen to accusations or arguments that you're incorrect.

01:01:38   change your mind and, you know, I remember writing an article many years ago.

01:01:44   I could look it up, but I think it was like in 2004, but it just was under the premise.

01:01:47   Like, I think it was the opening line.

01:01:49   Like, when was the last time you changed your mind on something?

01:01:51   And I think it's a very interesting conversation point because I think there's a lot of people, a lot of smart people who their honest answer would have to be.

01:02:01   I haven't changed my mind on anything in quite a while.

01:02:04   Well, then, well, if you haven't changed your mind on anything in quite a while, do you think you're right about everything?

01:02:08   And then, you know, I think most people who aren't sociopaths would say, no, I'm sure I'm not right about everything.

01:02:17   But then why haven't you changed your mind on anything recently?

01:02:20   Right.

01:02:21   So I try to keep an open mind.

01:02:24   And I have a thick skin, so I don't mind reading when I get feedback, emails from readers that are sometimes very angry.

01:02:31   You know, a lot of my stuff in the last few years, writing about the EU.

01:02:35   I was going to say, Europeans don't like it.

01:02:37   It's definitely, you know, it is a definite change where prior to the EU beginning to regulate, especially the DMA, has really changed the tone, you know, of emails that I get from readers from the EU.

01:02:54   There's some stuff during COVID where I upset people.

01:02:58   Nobody created content during COVID and got away scot-free, right?

01:03:01   Like, nobody got away scot-free during that time.

01:03:04   Yeah, it's really interesting in hindsight the way that it sort of heightened everybody, sharpened everybody.

01:03:08   Everybody had daggers out and was ready to be angry about anything.

01:03:12   That's because we were all so scared.

01:03:14   But then, even after it was less scary, people somehow still had the daggers out.

01:03:19   It took everybody a while to put them back in.

01:03:21   Yeah.

01:03:22   But, like, one of the issues was – I'm not a diehard about it.

01:03:26   I don't feel strongly.

01:03:26   But writing in some places about companies requiring employees to come back to work and to be collaborative, there was just a large number of people who'd never had the opportunity before to work remotely and work at home.

01:03:41   And people who, during the long period of COVID, especially here in the States where it's this big open country and the real estate is so super expensive in the whole California Bay Area.

01:03:51   And people who, like, move to buy a real big, nice house in Texas or somewhere where real estate is incredibly cheap compared to there and then being told, no, you have to come back here.

01:04:03   And my stance that would – yes, but in-person collaboration is a real thing and some companies and teams really thrive on that.

01:04:11   And some people felt so super emotional about the attachment that everybody should have the right to work remotely and then throwing at me, but you just work at your home for 20 years all by yourself.

01:04:25   I set that up that way, though, right?

01:04:26   But it didn't make me want to get angry and yell back at them.

01:04:31   I could just read it, and I'd read what they wrote and think, am I wrong?

01:04:34   And I am wrong about many things.

01:04:37   The combination of thick skin lets me ignore the ones that I think, nah, this is your problem, not mine.

01:04:43   But also, I have – hopefully I have an open enough mind where I change my mind based on that feedback.

01:04:49   All right.

01:04:50   We're going to jump back out now.

01:04:51   We're going to talk about some nuts and bolts stuff.

01:04:54   So when you're sitting down to write, we've established that you're writing in front of a studio display the majority of the time, and your laptop is closed?

01:05:05   Yes.

01:05:06   So you have a keyboard, mouse.

01:05:08   What are you using?

01:05:09   It's an Apple Extended Keyboard 2 from 1990.

01:05:13   My second one connected to an ADB to USB-C adapter from a small one-person show called Tinker Boy.

01:05:23   Just anybody who wants to use an old ADB keyboard or mouse, just Google Tinker Boy ADB USB and buy that.

01:05:31   Jason just told me this week he's got some old Apple keyboard that the Tinker Boy is perfect.

01:05:37   I use a crazy cheap, like, $19 ThinkPad mouse that I bought as a gag, but it's actually very comfortable.

01:05:49   It's just a very simple two-button wireless Bluetooth mouse with a red scroll wheel.

01:05:54   John Syracuse has spoken at length about this, but there's, like, two fundamental ways to grip a mouse.

01:06:00   And my mouse grip hasn't been suited to a mouse made by Apple since the ADB era.

01:06:07   But it's a comfortable mouse.

01:06:08   I mouse with my left hand, even though I'm right-handed, because back in the 90s, I started getting some RSI problems in my right shoulder and right wrist.

01:06:17   And I think I've always been just ever so slightly ambidextrous, even though I'm right-handed.

01:06:23   Like, I used to play basketball fairly seriously as an amateur, and I could shoot with my left hand better than a lot of people could shoot with their dominant hand.

01:06:32   And so I think it was easier for me to switch to left-handed mousing than it would be for most people.

01:06:37   I also have a Magic trackpad that I keep on the right side, which I don't use much, but I use it for a couple of things where the gestures don't work with a simple generic mouse with a scroll wheel.

01:06:50   But that's it.

01:06:51   And every once in a while, I've got, like, a drawer full of mechanical keyboards I've tried over the years.

01:06:56   And I just always go back to the Apple Extended Keyboard 2.

01:07:00   And I've sort of, even though the keyboard world continues to grow and thrive, and it's a lot of fun, and I kind of pay attention to it, and there's better options now than ever.

01:07:10   I've learned that all I ever do is, you know, spend $100 or $200 or more on a keyboard, and then I use it for a couple of days, and then I go back to the Apple Extended Keyboard 2.

01:07:19   These days, there's probably something that would feel like that, but I don't think you should ever change.

01:07:26   Yeah, there's a certain poetry to it, too.

01:07:29   Yeah.

01:07:29   You know, why am I bothering to chase down something that feels like it?

01:07:33   Well, how many do you have, is the question.

01:07:35   I don't know.

01:07:36   I know I've got at least one more that's new in box, and I have at least three spares, but the other one that's new in box is important to me.

01:07:45   I kind of am grossed out by using one that anybody had ever used, even if you clean it.

01:07:51   Not grossed out, but mildly grossed out.

01:07:53   And I also have my original one, which I won in a wager in college playing John Madden football on Sega Genesis.

01:08:03   My college Mac was a Mac LC in 1991, and it came with, I forget what it was called.

01:08:09   It was an ADB keyboard, but it didn't use the Alps switches, and it was a terrible-feeling keyboard.

01:08:17   I didn't have strong opinions about keyboards at the time, but I kind of knew it wasn't great.

01:08:22   And what I should have bought in 1991 was the SE30, which came with the Apple Extended Keyboard 2.

01:08:28   But I bought the LC because I wanted a color screen, because I thought I'd want to play games.

01:08:33   Because I was more coming from high school an Apple II person than a Mac.

01:08:37   I thought the Mac wasn't opposed to it, but I don't know.

01:08:41   I was so into the Apple II world, and I realized that the future was more like the Mac with a GUI, and that the Apple II had sort of run its course in the 80s.

01:08:50   But I wanted color.

01:08:51   I thought it was ridiculous to spend more.

01:08:53   The SE30 was more expensive than the LC, and it was all very expensive for my parents to buy me whatever.

01:09:00   So I got the LC.

01:09:01   I had this terrible keyboard, and in my sophomore year, I was in a group of friends, and we played very serious John Madden football on Sega Genesis.

01:09:09   And when it came to the championship game, I bet – I forget how much money.

01:09:13   I put up money, and this guy Bill put up his – he had the SE30 with the Apple Extended Keyboard 2.

01:09:20   He put up the keyboard, and I won the game.

01:09:23   I was the Houston Oilers.

01:09:24   He played as the Philadelphia Eagles.

01:09:26   And so it's part of the deal.

01:09:28   He got my keyboard, but he didn't really care.

01:09:30   He was not into it, whereas I was like, oh, now I've got this keyboard.

01:09:34   So I won that keyboard in 1992 in college, and then it was my keyboard at home until 2006 or 2007, I think, when the E key broke.

01:09:45   And I still have that one, and I don't know why.

01:09:49   Here it is almost 20 years later, and I still haven't done it.

01:09:51   I thought, ah, someday I should try to have somebody fix it.

01:09:54   I don't know how to do it.

01:09:55   That's definitely repairable.

01:09:57   I know it is.

01:09:58   I know it is, and I have offers for it.

01:10:00   But I know, too, that that keyboard – again, I'm a terrible procrastinator, Mike.

01:10:04   Apps – I mean, here it is 19 years, and I haven't done it.

01:10:07   And what am I waiting for?

01:10:09   I haven't used it for 19 years.

01:10:10   So the worst that would happen is I'd give it to someone to fix, and they'd break it even worse.

01:10:14   And they break it.

01:10:14   Right.

01:10:14   But it's already –

01:10:15   But it's never going to get used.

01:10:17   And I know in my heart that that first one has a slightly better feel than the one I've been using now for 19 years.

01:10:23   You mentioned MarsEdit earlier.

01:10:24   I'm assuming that's the app that you write in?

01:10:27   Yeah, primarily.

01:10:28   And you publish from there, too.

01:10:30   Yeah.

01:10:30   I almost always publish from there.

01:10:32   What else do you write in?

01:10:34   BBEdit, and that's it.

01:10:35   Okay.

01:10:35   There's no hard and fast rule, like when do I switch from just doing it all in MarsEdit to BBEdit.

01:10:41   You know, if it's something I know is going to be long from the start, I'll just start it in BBEdit and do a Command-N in BBEdit.

01:10:47   More often, though, it's something where it's like, huh, this is getting longer than I thought.

01:10:53   Or I want to change something, and I want to use BBEdit to find and replace, something like that.

01:10:58   Something where I really want to do it, you know, BBEdit is just a better text editor than MarsEdit.

01:11:04   By a long shot.

01:11:05   MarsEdit has always supported.

01:11:07   I think since before Jowkit took over from Brent 20-some years ago, it supports the open in BBEdit protocol.

01:11:14   So it's like Command-Option-J in MarsEdit.

01:11:17   I had to think about what it was because my fingers just do it naturally.

01:11:20   But it takes the current MarsEdit window, the contents of it, and opens it in BBEdit.

01:11:26   No copy and paste involved.

01:11:29   And while it's open in BBEdit, the MarsEdit window blocks with a dialog box so I can't get confused and make changes in MarsEdit, something like that.

01:11:40   It can only be open for editing in one place.

01:11:42   But those are the only two apps that I ever write in.

01:11:45   This episode of Cortex is brought to you by Sentry.

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01:12:36   As a user of apps and a lover of good experiences, smooth performance is really important to me.

01:12:41   When I use an app, I want to be able to use that app.

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01:12:46   It can turn me off from an application.

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01:12:57   Especially when it's done without tons and tons of work trying to find the bugs.

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01:13:05   They don't necessarily want to be stuck trying to understand something and debug it.

01:13:09   So Sentry is fantastic.

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01:13:29   Click the link in the show notes or go to sentry.io and use the code Cortex.

01:13:34   That is S-E-N-T-R-Y dot I-O and use the code Cortex or just click the link in the show notes.

01:13:40   A thanks to Sentry for their support of this show and Relay.

01:13:43   Speaking of apps, I ask you to send me your home screen.

01:13:48   Because I think you can learn a lot about someone from looking at their home screen.

01:13:51   And you told me over iMessage, you had some clean up to do first, which I appreciate.

01:13:57   I have some questions for you about your home screen.

01:14:00   This is for your iPhone.

01:14:01   It's a lot of email, John.

01:14:03   7,900 unread email messages.

01:14:06   Right.

01:14:07   Got to understand what's going on there.

01:14:09   What's the badge for?

01:14:10   I don't even know, honestly, because if I open mail on my phone right now,

01:14:16   all inboxes shows 19,285 unread emails.

01:14:21   Right.

01:14:21   So you've, at some point in settings, you have unchecked the ability for an account or two

01:14:28   to stop badging.

01:14:29   Right.

01:14:29   So you wanted to make a decision, but you still got nearly 8,000 unread email.

01:14:35   Also, was that 19,000 unread email?

01:14:37   Yes.

01:14:38   And that doesn't count a whole bunch of emails that I declared email bankruptcy from at least

01:14:46   once, maybe like 10 or 15 years ago.

01:14:49   There is definitely a question that maybe you should do it again.

01:14:52   Yes.

01:14:54   But why do you have it badge?

01:14:56   How is this useful for you?

01:14:57   I don't know.

01:14:58   And it's very curious because my wife does the same thing.

01:15:02   And hers is, I swear to God, it's like 70 or 80,000.

01:15:05   Yeah.

01:15:06   And I don't know how she does it because I think the way my wife does it is she never

01:15:10   even bothers unsubscribing from all the shit she starts getting automatically.

01:15:14   And she does a lot of online shopping.

01:15:17   She's just good at scrolling through.

01:15:18   Like when the physical mail comes through, I don't know, over there, do you guys get as

01:15:23   much junk mail in the paper mail as we do here in the States?

01:15:27   We do get it, but not too much.

01:15:28   We just get tons.

01:15:29   And so it's like every day we get a bunch of paper mail, at least six or seven to one

01:15:34   advertising promotion type stuff to actual a bill or a note, you know, something that,

01:15:42   you know, you actually want to open.

01:15:43   She's just good at doing that with her email.

01:15:45   I don't know.

01:15:46   For me, it's like a gentle reminder that, hey, I should check email.

01:15:50   I should look at it.

01:15:52   It's the reason I have so many unreads is that I don't check it enough.

01:15:56   Or when I get busy, I don't.

01:15:58   It's one of the reasons I prefer my Mac to my phone.

01:16:00   I use Apple Mail everywhere is my mail client.

01:16:02   So maybe there's an iOS client that has smart mailboxes.

01:16:07   I'm sure it's actually one of the fireballs in Apple Notes in that pile of unwritten articles.

01:16:12   But it's a list of like crazy things that iOS still doesn't have 20 years in.

01:16:19   And one of them is smart mailboxes in mail.

01:16:21   It's crazy to me.

01:16:23   You're never going to get it now.

01:16:25   Not due to the categories.

01:16:26   Like it's never going to happen.

01:16:28   But it's like I have a smart mailbox in Apple Mail that I've been using like ever since I switched from Mailsmith back in 2007,

01:16:35   which I know is when I switched because I had to switch because Mailsmith, the now defunct email client from the makers of BBEdit, Barebone Software, only did POP.

01:16:46   It never adopted IMAP.

01:16:48   And I wanted to switch to IMAP because the iPhone was the first time I'd be using two devices to access my email.

01:16:55   Up until then, I just used my one main Mac and the POP protocol to download the email.

01:16:59   But I have a smart mailbox that just shows all my inboxes from the last seven days.

01:17:05   And that's the one I tried to zero out.

01:17:08   And then I have another one that's 28 days.

01:17:10   And there are long, long stretches where my seven-day inbox is at zero unreads by the end of the day.

01:17:18   Or at some point.

01:17:19   Just at some point during the day, get that to zero and you know you're up to date.

01:17:23   So that rolling seven days, like that's the problem, right?

01:17:26   Because there's going to be some days that just go into that 7,900 and then never see it again.

01:17:31   So why do I keep the badge on?

01:17:32   I don't know.

01:17:33   It's like, and I don't want to turn it off, I guess.

01:17:36   You know, and it doesn't bother me because all the other badges kind of bother me because they're like one, two, or three, or some app with a badge that says 18 is something I can take care of.

01:17:46   The badge on mail, to me, it's almost like become part of the icon.

01:17:49   What is Kotoba?

01:17:51   You can look it up on my website, but that is a dictionary app that is made by Will Haynes, a developer who also, he used to write a Twitter account called DF Style Guide, where he would point out curiosities in my usage, and Craig Hockenberry.

01:18:08   So those two guys write all the code.

01:18:10   They kindly give me the third credit for kind of designing it.

01:18:16   But it's a dictionary app that uses the built-in system dictionary in iOS, which is also the same system dictionary in Mac.

01:18:25   I use it every day.

01:18:27   It's one of my very most used apps.

01:18:28   And in addition to showing you the definitions through the built-in dictionary interface, it also keeps a history of every word you look up and syncs that via iCloud to any other instances of Kotoba.

01:18:43   Kotoba is the Japanese word for word?

01:18:48   Will, I think he's back in Australia now, but Will speaks fluent Japanese and has lived in Japan, and he named it.

01:18:54   But the reason you've never heard of it or others haven't heard of it, even though I've written about it, is that we're not allowed to put it in the app store.

01:19:02   We've tried a few times, but there is an app store rule, a guideline against using the system dictionary to make a dictionary app.

01:19:13   What a weird rule.

01:19:14   Well, and I've never had it explained, and I've never tried to go high enough in the chain of sources I have to find out what the source is.

01:19:23   My guess, it's the licensing deal they have with the American Heritage, or one or more of the dictionary providers.

01:19:32   Even though, on the Mac, dating back to Next, there is a built-in dictionary app that does what Kotoba does, except without the syncing of the words you've looked up.

01:19:42   And I just like that dictionary.

01:19:44   And there's also, in Kotoba, a sharing extension.

01:19:49   So in any app I'm in, when I find a word, oh, I'd like to look that word up.

01:19:53   I select the word, go to share on the selection, and pick Kotoba, which I use so often, it's like second or third, like after airdrop.

01:20:03   And then, instead of switching to Kotoba, it just opens a panel in place in the window, shows you the definition, you hit done, you're done.

01:20:12   And it still syncs to the lookup history list in Kotoba by going through the session.

01:20:18   It's a shame you can't have that in the app store.

01:20:19   It sounds great.

01:20:21   I wish we could, but we can't.

01:20:23   But it is open source, and it's on GitHub.

01:20:25   And so anybody with the technical facilities to download a project from GitHub and compile it for themselves can do it.

01:20:32   It's a very odd app because of that rule.

01:20:34   Sequel.

01:20:35   Are you using this for, like, content that people recommend to you?

01:20:39   Because you kind of save movies, TV shows for that?

01:20:42   Yeah.

01:20:42   So the Sequel is one of those apps.

01:20:45   It's like a whole cottage industry of apps like this.

01:20:47   Another good one that I've used for a long time is Sofa.

01:20:50   It's just like you make a list of movies and shows you want to watch, and then you can check them off as you watch them.

01:20:58   Yeah.

01:20:58   It's funny because I have Call Sheet on my home screen too, but there's a lot of overlap between them because Sequel offers some of what Call Sheet does.

01:21:07   Call Sheet is Casey Liss's app that shows the movie databases list of actors and directors and writers of TV shows and movies.

01:21:17   But Call Sheet, because it's first and foremost about showing you the info about a show or movie, is better for that.

01:21:25   And Sequel is more of a tracker and a notice of when new episodes are coming out and stuff.

01:21:31   But I use them both, and I like having them on my home screen because at night when I'm watching TV with my wife, now that I can do it, I'm just an inveterate.

01:21:39   Oh, who is that person?

01:21:40   I know that actress.

01:21:41   Yeah, I've gotten way worse with this since Casey released that app too.

01:21:44   I look it up more because, like him, I used to use the IMDB app and hated it, and so I tried to use it as little as possible.

01:21:51   But now I use Call Sheet more, so now I'm doing it more.

01:21:54   I noticed Tapestry on your home screen.

01:21:57   How are you using Tapestry?

01:21:58   I'm not using it as much as I think I should.

01:22:02   I haven't found a rhythm of what to follow in Tapestry yet.

01:22:06   I'm deeply intrigued by the app, and I really like it, but it's such an interesting idea because it exists in between social media and, like, a proper RSS reader like Net Newswire, which I also have on my home screen.

01:22:21   And I guess my thinking of the way I should be using it is as, like, the nicotine gum that people chew to try to stop smoking.

01:22:31   Like, go to Tapestry first before I open, you know, Blue Sky or Threads or Mastodon.

01:22:39   And I think that would have been more useful for me a few years ago at some tailpoint in the Twitter era where I felt like I was wasting time on Twitter, and I wouldn't waste so much time, but I'd find out about things.

01:22:57   And I just want to sit here and scroll something on my phone and see what's new.

01:23:01   Tapestry would be better for that without finding yourself, oh, how'd that hour go by, right?

01:23:06   Like, it's because there's no algorithm, but I'd keep it there because I think I should be using it more.

01:23:12   You know, and you could see the yellow dot that I'm on the test flight, but I just don't use it as much as I thought I would.

01:23:17   We all have aspirational apps, you know, it's just like if I was a different person, I would use this app more.

01:23:23   Right. Somehow I still find myself in Net Newswire more than Tapestry, but they overlap with each other, you know.

01:23:30   You have ivory in the dock of your iPhone. It's like looking at social media.

01:23:35   Do you consider Mastodon as like your home for social media?

01:23:38   Yeah, I do.

01:23:39   But it's funny. It really is.

01:23:42   I think the world is a better place at the moment with the spreading it out.

01:23:48   And I think that the centrality of Twitter to Twitter-like posting was ultimately bad for a lot of us in terms of our productivity.

01:23:58   I think it was bad for our interaction with others overall, and I think it was bad for its centrality to the sort of media, the new breaking news world.

01:24:07   But it was better in some ways because it was the one true place.

01:24:11   And now that it's spread across multiple things, instead of taking more time because I have to check more things, I spend less time because none of them have the centrality of it.

01:24:22   And I think that's good overall because I spend less time dicking around on social media.

01:24:27   But the one place where I get the most back and forth that still is conversational and more like the sort of unofficial comment section of Daring Fireball is Mastodon.

01:24:38   But I feel like even that is tapering off.

01:24:40   I don't know.

01:24:40   The splintering is weird.

01:24:42   It feels like just people just moving around.

01:24:45   Yeah, and I think in terms of usage, I don't know.

01:24:48   The dock on the iOS is so traditional, I don't know that they're ever going to get rid of it.

01:24:52   But it seems like that's a special hallowed place because it kind of is because it's there on every one of your home screens.

01:24:58   But I don't know.

01:25:00   It's more out of habit that ivory is still there because when I spent tons of time on Twitter and Tweety was there and then eventually TweetBot, it was justified by usage.

01:25:11   With ivory, it's probably not justified by usage, but also I can't think of any other app higher than that that really ought to take over that spot in the dock.

01:25:19   So you have things as your task manager.

01:25:21   That's funny.

01:25:23   Well, it's funny because things was one of the ones where I didn't want to send you the screenshot because it had like today items as a badge and it said 13, which is way too many.

01:25:33   And a bunch of them were months old.

01:25:34   But look, for you, you could say maybe that's not many tasks or it's lots of tasks.

01:25:38   Like for me, that's lots of tasks.

01:25:40   But like for gray, that's like nothing.

01:25:42   Well, but it's like the procrastination thing I told you, like all of a sudden I was procrastinating on sending you a screenshot of my home screen because I wanted to get rid of some of those badges.

01:25:53   And it got me to do some of those things in things.

01:25:57   I was like, yeah, there's no reason this should be in today.

01:25:59   I can just move this back to my inbox.

01:26:01   And oh, this one, I don't even know why I put this here.

01:26:04   I could just delete it, you know.

01:26:05   And so I got it down to zero because you asked me for the screenshot.

01:26:09   Do you consider the way that you add tasks, do you consider it a simple system?

01:26:12   Like are you mostly just putting things into one or two spots and doing what you need to do?

01:26:17   Really, my main to-do list is in the paper notebook I carry.

01:26:22   I have things on the home screen, but I've never found a to-do app that really works for the way my mind works.

01:26:30   And I like things and I wish things did a few things differently.

01:26:34   You know, it's probably one of those apps that at some point maybe I'll put something else there.

01:26:39   I don't know.

01:26:40   I've tried to get more into reminders and I'll probably do that again every couple of years.

01:26:44   I'll do it just to see what Apple's done with it.

01:26:48   It gets steadily better like every year.

01:26:50   They add more and more to it.

01:26:51   Like it's becoming more and more rounded and full-featured.

01:26:54   Yeah, but really for the most part, it's the paper.

01:26:58   If it's something I really needed to do in the next today or the next couple of days, I write it down in the field notes.

01:27:03   And it's better for my brain to be not on the phone looking at what I need to do today.

01:27:10   You know, I'm sure you agree, you know, with a lot of the stationary stuff that you've designed and sell,

01:27:14   that having something off screen, off the digital life in front of you as an agenda,

01:27:21   in front of you, for me at least, it just lights up a slightly different part of my brain that keeps me grounded in the real world and gets me out of the alternate world that I'm in.

01:27:33   I mean, I'm doing it now, right?

01:27:34   Like I have my questions in front of me in a Notion document.

01:27:37   But as we've been talking, I've been writing notes down on a notebook for like different things.

01:27:41   Like I want to remember this, I want to ask you in a minute, and I'll sit down and write it on my notebook instead.

01:27:45   I wrote about this, I'm going to say in the last year.

01:27:48   But again, sometimes it's like, oh, that was three years ago.

01:27:50   Oh, geez, I thought it was last year.

01:27:51   But at some point, I wrote something about the Mac and why it's such a special platform for me.

01:27:55   And to me, it is always, ever since I first got one in the 90s, and I got that LC at college, it was like within a few days of owning it, I was like, oh, oh, I've really been missing out.

01:28:09   When I was in high school, my last year, I had an advanced placement or something.

01:28:13   It was a special course that I was in with only one other person.

01:28:17   It was like an independent study programming course that the computer teacher at my high school offered.

01:28:23   And there was one Mac in the computer lab.

01:28:26   The rest were Apple IIs, including two GSs.

01:28:29   And this other kid with me, Zach, she was like, which one of you, does either one of you want to use the Mac?

01:28:36   But I wanted color.

01:28:37   Again, I was so obsessed with wanting a color display that I wanted the two GS.

01:28:41   I realized all of a sudden, like after a week into owning a Macintosh, that, oh, I made a terrible mistake.

01:28:49   And if I would have asserted myself, Zach, the other kid in the class, would have said, oh, sure, I'll take one of the Apple IIs.

01:28:55   He just sort of sat down at the Mac for that.

01:28:56   I was like, I should have been using that Mac all last year.

01:28:59   Like, I get it now in a way that I'd used the Mac in high school, but it just didn't click for me.

01:29:05   And ever since then, the Mac has been a place.

01:29:08   I don't know how else to describe it.

01:29:10   It's a place that my mind goes.

01:29:12   And I'm in it.

01:29:13   It is almost like a virtual reality.

01:29:16   And it's how I lose track of time when I'm working or obsessed with something on the Mac.

01:29:22   And putting my stuff, my agenda for the day or the next two days on paper in a notebook that I can leave open desk side is a way to get me out of that place and keep me sort of put my mind back in the real world around me.

01:29:39   And it's very important to me, I think.

01:29:42   Basically, every day I try to turn the page and I put the date at the top and it's a two-page spread for the day.

01:29:49   And, you know, like over the weekend, I might just go from Friday to Monday with one two-page because I'm not adding stuff.

01:29:55   And if there's stuff from the previous day that I haven't done, you know, I'll try to turn back and see if I'll do them or get to them.

01:30:03   And if it's two or three days older and I haven't gotten to it, it's like, eh, forget about it.

01:30:07   It obviously wasn't that important.

01:30:08   So my notebooks, hundreds, you know, I'm up to this current one I'm carrying is number 119.

01:30:14   Oh, you number them?

01:30:15   Yeah, I number them.

01:30:15   I have a little stamp I made that I put on the front.

01:30:18   But I have 118 previous ones.

01:30:20   Actually, I lost one of them.

01:30:21   I forget.

01:30:22   I think it was like number 47.

01:30:23   Never forget.

01:30:23   I might be wrong about the number, but I know one of them is lost.

01:30:28   That's not bad.

01:30:29   That's not a bad average, actually, to have like 119 notebooks and lost one of them.

01:30:32   That's not bad.

01:30:33   Yeah.

01:30:33   One time I was at a conference.

01:30:35   I forget which conference it was.

01:30:37   And, you know, I'd had a couple beers and I felt my back right pocket where it goes and my notebook wasn't there.

01:30:42   I don't know where it is.

01:30:43   And 40 minutes later, Manton Reese came up to me and said, hey, I don't know, you know, you lost this.

01:30:49   And he just found it on the sidewalk.

01:30:52   You know, he wasn't right behind me.

01:30:54   He just found it on the sidewalk in between like a restaurant and a bar and gave it back to me.

01:30:59   That's why you stamp them.

01:31:00   I've got 118 of these and they're filled with undone to-dos that I've just turned the page past.

01:31:06   But it's an interesting, you know, alternative to the badges that keep growing in number where if I keep turning the page and I'm really only looking at today, and I know that all those undone to-dos, they're there on paper back there.

01:31:20   They're there if I want to flip back and think, what was that thing I wanted to do a couple weeks ago?

01:31:24   I wrote that down when I was, it was on the 4th of July.

01:31:27   I remember it was the 4th of July.

01:31:28   I can flip back a couple pages.

01:31:29   I know I can find it, but they're not there badgering me, hanging over my head.

01:31:35   It's very important to me.

01:31:37   I want to thank you all for listening again to this episode of Cortex and the State of the Workflow series.

01:31:43   I really enjoyed this episode with John, and I hope that you do too.

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01:32:19   Thank you so much for listening.

01:32:20   I'll be back soon.