00:00:16 ◼ ► Yeah, the way I think of it is I know you're of Italian heritage, where Mantia comes from.
00:00:28 ◼ ► We were talking recently because you're doing something Philadelphia-related or something,
00:00:41 ◼ ► I do think as a Philadelphian, I do think, and I know Philadelphia is I think best known for
00:00:50 ◼ ► the cheesesteak, and I do like a good cheesesteak, but I feel like I told you privately, I'll say
00:01:02 ◼ ► If a Philly sandwich were to be Thanos-ed out of existence with the snap of a finger, I
00:01:10 ◼ ► think the world would be a better place if the cheesesteak were vanished and the Philadelphia
00:01:29 ◼ ► In the same way that when Thanos snapped his fingers, a lot of people, heroes and people
00:01:35 ◼ ► that everybody loved, you missed some of the people who went away, but it's not that the
00:01:46 ◼ ► That could have been the whole plot to the movie instead, that we could have just had just
00:02:11 ◼ ► This is where I think we were arguing as to whether hoagie is a Philadelphia regionalism.
00:02:35 ◼ ► In America, people call it, this is a long Italian roll, hopefully Italian, with Italian lunch meats
00:02:42 ◼ ► and I like it with the Italian, like sharp provolone cheese, onions, lettuce, tomatoes, oil.
00:02:49 ◼ ► Another one, we didn't even get into this, is the issue of mayonnaise on an Italian hoagie.
00:03:26 ◼ ► But if you, I think a lot of the places that call them subs or submarine sandwiches default
00:03:33 ◼ ► And I think you got to it in chat, which is the basic thing is it's not a Philadelphia thing.
00:03:45 ◼ ► Like everywhere else might have this sandwich, but you guys are the ones that call it a hoagie.
00:03:52 ◼ ► So the term might be a little more Philadelphia-ish, but the Italian sandwich, which I've also,
00:04:06 ◼ ► What I don't understand is like what New York had, what was the, they called it like an Italian
00:04:49 ◼ ► And he knows a neighborhood place, but it's totally, it's like a weird little store that's
00:05:00 ◼ ► It's sort of like half a deli where they make sandwiches and half sort of a bodega corner
00:05:10 ◼ ► But it seems like what they did is they got so big and popular that they bought the store
00:05:14 ◼ ► next to them and knocked, not really a door, but just sort of an archway into the next.
00:05:46 ◼ ► Before we go any further, let me already take a break here and thank our first sponsor.
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00:09:25 ◼ ► On your phone, do you use, it's a poll, light mode, dark mode, switch by time of day, or switch willy-nilly?
00:09:46 ◼ ► I'm checking right now, because I don't even know, I don't even think about it anymore.
00:10:15 ◼ ► Okay, I'm not trying to make any value a statement here, but is it an eyesight thing, or is it just like a classic thing?
00:10:25 ◼ ► So I think I've talked, I know I've talked about this long ago, but I'm only 52, but in my 40s, which is a ridiculously young age, I had cataracts in both eyes.
00:10:44 ◼ ► But the other thing I learned with the first one, which was my left eye, is the younger you are when you develop a cataract, the faster it gets worse.
00:10:58 ◼ ► So I went from not really noticing I had anything wrong to my left eye was just blurry all the time, seemingly in a matter of months.
00:11:07 ◼ ► And it was so young that at first, my eye doctor was like, they didn't think about cataract and didn't like, you know, if they think cataract and they just sort of shine a light, they're like, oh, you've got a cataract.
00:11:22 ◼ ► And so they were just sort of, you know how when you go to the eye doctor for glasses and they put the things that are like, click, and it's, is this better or worse?
00:11:46 ◼ ► But anyway, at one point when my second eye had the cataract, my first eye, I swear to God, this sounds terrible, but it's all better now.
00:11:59 ◼ ► So the cataract is cloudiness in the lens in your eye, but the lens sits in a sack that's sort of like a Ziploc sandwich bag.
00:12:11 ◼ ► It's, it's, so the lens is the more important part, but it sits in a sack in front of your eye.
00:12:17 ◼ ► The secondary cataract is that sometimes or often when you get the, the cataract is the, this is gross.
00:12:24 ◼ ► I've had it happen, but they take out the natural lens in your eye and put in an artificial lens in place.
00:12:47 ◼ ► And it looks like a green light is flashing in your eyes and they go click, click, click, click, click, click.
00:12:53 ◼ ► And then you, they're like, beforehand, they gave me a magazine to read with my other eye closed.
00:13:12 ◼ ► When you get the actual cataract surgery and they replace your lens, they put you under because it's, they actually cut your eye open and put a lens in there.
00:13:21 ◼ ► When they do the secondary cataract though, I swear to God, it's, it is five minutes in and out.
00:13:30 ◼ ► But at one point I had a cataract in my right eye and a secondary cataract in my left eye.
00:13:47 ◼ ► It's interesting that you say all this because, so I had like my, my corneas like were deformed, I guess.
00:13:54 ◼ ► There's a weird, dumb thing, a reason that that happens and it's not important, but I also had surgery in both of my eyes, but it was like corneal crosslinking and they have to like open your cornea and stick some like steroids in there for it to chill out and get back to a normal side.
00:14:21 ◼ ► And I get nervous about it because the other, it's a total side issue and it's far more significant and risky, but I've also had retinal detachments in both of my eyes.
00:14:35 ◼ ► And currently with, with my glasses on, I see with both my eyes open 2020 with the glasses.
00:14:42 ◼ ► But when I had the cataract in the right eye and the secondary cataract in the left eye and I was waiting and it was like, I forget which one I had to get taken care of first.
00:14:55 ◼ ► Like I might've had it, the one procedure earlier, except it was like, ah, we're not doing these procedures for a couple months because of coming out of COVID.
00:15:04 ◼ ► And I think it was the first, I'm pretty sure it was like, I might be getting the year wrong, but I think it was the first year back at WWDC.
00:15:24 ◼ ► And at the time with both of these eye problems, I kind of had to get really close to a screen to read it.
00:15:37 ◼ ► And my friend, Matt and Reese saw me in the lobby and he thought I was like working super diligently because I was hunched over this computer.
00:15:58 ◼ ► At that time, the cataract, it, because it's like cloudiness in the lens and the effect that you see is just sort of a general haziness.
00:16:09 ◼ ► Like in a sitcom, like a classic 80s, 90s sitcom when a character would have a dream sequence.
00:16:22 ◼ ► And you can start to notice it, like people really start to notice it when you're driving at night because a light source, like a stop sign or opposing headlights.
00:16:43 ◼ ► So looking at a light screen, a white background with black text, the white overwhelms the black and all you really see is white.
00:17:21 ◼ ► So are you telling me that dark mode for you was like an accessibility feature only and that now that you've got like your 2020 vision, okay, you're like light mode only now?
00:17:37 ◼ ► But it's why, and I would have been okay if this had happened to me before dark mode became a system-wide thing on iOS and macOS because for that accessibility reason, both platforms had supported something.
00:17:57 ◼ ► If you fire up like an iPhone from 2007 or a Mac from 15, 20 years ago, there's a feature in accessibility that reverses the screen.
00:18:17 ◼ ► In the modern version of invert, they intentionally don't invert content like photos, but they invert everything else, which is like better, but still like dark mode is like really what you're after in this situation.
00:18:34 ◼ ► So I would have been okay with invert before, but when this happened to me, dark mode was a thing.
00:19:09 ◼ ► I feel like a bunch of pro apps were like actually doing dark mode way before like system stuff was right.
00:19:14 ◼ ► I mean, of course, final cut, just because you're working with with movie stuff was always like and stuff like aperture was like with that.
00:19:42 ◼ ► But the other thing I like about BB edit being, it's not quite black, like my color scheme, but it's almost black.
00:19:51 ◼ ► You would look at it and instantly know that's just dark gray, but it's very dark gray.
00:19:55 ◼ ► But I like that the BB edit windows stick out with a bunch of windows tiled on top of it.
00:20:03 ◼ ► So it's not that I hate dark mode, but I just like it very selectively for certain apps.
00:20:08 ◼ ► Well, I mean, that's a, well, that's a good point because it's like there used to be, I get, we're getting an interesting thing here and I don't want to get there.
00:20:17 ◼ ► But like when 10, 15 years ago, I feel like apps were more visually distinct in not just like the background color, but just like the style overall.
00:20:25 ◼ ► So you could identify like what app was over on this side of the screen versus this side of the screen very easily based on what it looked like.
00:20:41 ◼ ► Just, and again, putting aside, we'll get back to this issue for the, a lot of this on the show.
00:20:49 ◼ ► But for example, and I made fun of it, the, the rich Corinthian leather of Apple calendar for a while, right?
00:20:57 ◼ ► That it, it had these leather accents, like it was a leather desk mat on an executive's desk.
00:21:09 ◼ ► I know everybody calls it skeuomorphism, but it's the skeuomorphic use of leather as a photorealistic leather or almost not even photorealistic,
00:21:27 ◼ ► But it, say what you want about the, oh, I like the way that looks or I, I like the gimmick of the way it looks.
00:21:44 ◼ ► I, I would probably rather switch to dark mode 24 hours a day than do the switching at sundown because I find to me, and I think it's probably related to the fact that I'm older and, and I grew up at a time when all the, all there was, was light mode.
00:22:15 ◼ ► This is where I end up being willy nilly because I have to switch between light and dark mode at a place like Disneyland because you're in darker environments.
00:22:34 ◼ ► I try to keep my phone in my pocket as much as I can while I'm there, but there's, you're in a long enough queue.
00:22:44 ◼ ► And if, if Amy and Jonas both have their phones out, then I'm like, well, now it's a free, it's free for all.
00:22:54 ◼ ► But I find that, I just find that when it switches automatically, I don't recognize the app anymore.
00:23:03 ◼ ► Apple Mail is this white background app that has these, the white background to me is part of Apple Mail's visual identity.
00:23:11 ◼ ► Well, do they allow you, I know that some, some third party apps have settings that are like, do you want to follow the system or do you want to use light or dark?
00:23:25 ◼ ► I mean, they're all technically capable of providing this, but none of them seem to do that.
00:23:29 ◼ ► I mean, I wonder if you would, I'm curious if you would intentionally select dark mode for any app that you use just for that app.
00:23:44 ◼ ► Probably not because I, let's see, the Apple apps I use the most are messages, I'm not necessarily in order, but messages, Safari, and Mail for sure.
00:24:12 ◼ ► Now it's like the kind of the URL bar maybe changes its appearance a little bit or something you don't really know.
00:24:21 ◼ ► So being in dark mode, because mine happens like automatically, it doesn't change if you're actively looking at it, right?
00:24:29 ◼ ► Even if it technically hits the time, it doesn't do it until like you turn off your phone or look away from it for a second and then it changes.
00:24:35 ◼ ► When, like, when it changes into dark mode, like for the rest of the evening or whatever, the thing that always killed me is in Safari, when a page loads, it loads white first before everything else.
00:24:49 ◼ ► So before a page even loads, I get like this really hot flash of like white right in my face before it decides, oh, like the website will maybe respect dark mode and have a dark mode appearance.
00:25:03 ◼ ► Yeah, and that brings me to the other, hey, how can you have to mention this, or I have to mention this, is that effectively, Daring Fireball has been a form of dark mode from its inception.
00:25:22 ◼ ► Because, so, you've straddled this light mode, dark mode thing for a really long time by being medium mode the entire time, right?
00:25:31 ◼ ► You, like, by having the medium grayish sort of blue color that you have, like, you work both, like, you work well in both modes and no one cares.
00:25:40 ◼ ► No, no dark mode person is going to complain, no light mode person is going to complain, right?
00:25:44 ◼ ► But if you have a white website and you don't work in dark mode, you're like an asshole, right?
00:25:48 ◼ ► So, like, I mean, this is the same thing I do, like, with a bunch of my websites where it's like, I have, like, medium blue as my background for, like, Parakeet and Junior and whatever else.
00:26:02 ◼ ► But I guess light mode people, I don't know, often complain about the dark mode, whereas dark mode people often complain when, like, it's not supported for them.
00:26:16 ◼ ► And the web is another area where, again, I have my own personal opinion on the color of my site, which is I've been pretty consistent with those colors all along.
00:26:38 ◼ ► I like that I wouldn't want your site to switch to light mode just because my system's in light mode.
00:26:45 ◼ ► And I would find that very strange if I went to your site, which I've been reading a lot lately because you've been writing about things I care a lot about and why I've invited you onto the show.
00:26:59 ◼ ► I would find it very strange if your site reversed color just because it was after 8 o'clock at night.
00:27:18 ◼ ► I had 3,300 people on Mastodon respond and on threads 2,838, so about the same, but Mastodon was a little more popular.
00:27:33 ◼ ► I have to imagine there's actually a fair amount of automatic people, but maybe that's just because I lean that way.
00:27:38 ◼ ► I feel like it's got to be half are those people, and I actually bet a bunch of people are like explicitly dark mode all the time.
00:27:57 ◼ ► Switch by time of day, which implied automatically – I forget if I was running short on characters that I didn't include the word automatically, but people know what I meant.
00:28:16 ◼ ► Light, 36 on threads, so call it 33% average, about one-third, and 12% and 16% on light mode only.
00:28:35 ◼ ► About a third do dark mode all the time, and the remaining, you know, what, a sixth or so – a sixth or seventh.
00:28:49 ◼ ► So you're in – it's not nobody, but you are in the lowest or the smallest group, besides the weirdos that are just, like, apparently switching willy-nilly, which I don't know who those people are.
00:29:03 ◼ ► I just thought it was interesting, and it does seem dark mode is more than a passing fad.
00:29:16 ◼ ► You mentioned this before we segue into talking about the iOS 26 and liquid glass and everything, but I guess that this is changing this year for the first time.
00:29:38 ◼ ► So dark mode app icons changing – I think that was in the previous version where they did that.
00:30:05 ◼ ► I find that to be off – I find the app icon switching around to be very off-putting, and that's something, like, to me, it would be like – I don't know.
00:30:17 ◼ ► So that's, to me, the thing that you were talking about before, where it's, like, you don't recognize male if it's dark mode.
00:30:28 ◼ ► Like, they're just completely different apps at that point because the color composition of an app icon is, like, its entire identity.
00:30:35 ◼ ► And, like, yeah, I will probably, like, understand certain things, like, mail and messages maybe.
00:30:44 ◼ ► Like, when you see a mail envelope that's white on blue, and then you go to it being blue on black, like, both of these attributes changed.
00:31:10 ◼ ► Notes is – I should have mentioned Notes as one of the main Apple apps that I use all the time.
00:31:16 ◼ ► And the – in iOS 26, the icon changes what used to be – the icon represents a notepad of white-lined paper with a yellow – I don't know what you call that at the top – binding at the top.
00:31:40 ◼ ► I mean, I remember when that happened, and then it was like, oh, what – that – is this black paper that we're writing on?
00:31:48 ◼ ► I mean, this is – it's funny because I think in that whole, like, era where everyone was, like, questioning, like, rich visual design and skeuomorphism, we were always making questions.
00:31:57 ◼ ► Like, we're like, hey, does this really make sense for it to be rich Corinthian leather?
00:32:04 ◼ ► But, like, when the black notes paper happened, I don't think anyone was like, hmm, yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
00:32:15 ◼ ► It's just like, we're going to complain about, like, the rich visual design, but not about this.
00:32:22 ◼ ► I think it's weird that the phone app changes from a green icon with a white phone, which is the main light mode icon, to a black icon with a green phone.
00:32:37 ◼ ► It's not – like, if it kept a black – okay, here's – really what I think they should have done with, like, dark mode the whole time was make the background part of the icon darker, but retain some vibrancy of the original color of the thing.
00:32:52 ◼ ► If it was a dark green with, like, still, like, maybe, like, even a light green phone, right?
00:33:01 ◼ ► That would have made more sense because it would have kept all of this, like, information in your head.
00:33:10 ◼ ► Do dark mode people, like, when they have all these dark mode icons, or God forbid the people that do, like, tinted icons or whatever, are – like, do they fully just have some capability?
00:33:30 ◼ ► You can't tell me that they're just, like, instantly just, like, identifying all of these things.
00:33:34 ◼ ► I just feel – yeah, I feel like I'm particularly logo sensitive or logo – I – the way that people – humans naturally – every – almost everybody.
00:33:56 ◼ ► And that you can – and if you run into somebody who you haven't seen in 10 years and they've aged, you still –
00:34:18 ◼ ► But the first time I saw the dark mode app for phone, I thought it was, like – I thought it was, like, Google Voice or WhatsApp or something.
00:34:36 ◼ ► Because, like, okay, there are a bunch of apps that, like, just for better or worse, are just green backgrounds with white, like, chat bubbles on them.
00:34:51 ◼ ► And so – but when they get inverted, it's not that they – they're actually less different because they're all black, right?
00:35:01 ◼ ► And then the foreground object all being green, you're just, like, looking at – they look like third-party apps now.
00:35:23 ◼ ► To me, a perfect example of this would be a can of Coca-Cola versus a can of Coke Zero.
00:35:47 ◼ ► Like, they're saying that that kind of difference now, right, is actually, like, something that we have to accept is an alternate version of this rather than being, like – like, actually, there was tons of apps, right, that were, like, black – like, even Apple's apps have a black background, right, before dark mode existed.
00:36:41 ◼ ► And, again, you took my point that I was going to make, which is that in this scheme, it's not like the Coke Zero can changes either.
00:36:54 ◼ ► So, now you have two icons that are more similar, even though they were totally different in the other mode.
00:37:02 ◼ ► And, again, I always – I guess I should always preface a poll that I do that I don't pretend that the people who follow me on social media are representative of the world at large.
00:37:17 ◼ ► And I'll bet it's representative – I'll bet the basic takeaway that dark mode is overall more popular than light mode.
00:37:40 ◼ ► But I do think then, therefore – and you just made the point that Apple – looking at Apple for examples of leadership, which I don't know if we should be doing for UI anymore.
00:37:54 ◼ ► But that they have some apps like Wallet and Watch, both – coincidentally, both on the same second home screen for me.
00:38:14 ◼ ► So in some sense, from Apple's perspective, dark mode is more canonical now than light mode, that it's the one where if an app – like Watch is – Watch is the perfect example.
00:38:29 ◼ ► Yeah, that one, that one, they were fully – actually, the icon and the app are both dark mode permanently.
00:38:39 ◼ ► But when they show iOS 26 at WWDC, they show light mode either all the time or almost all the time.
00:38:56 ◼ ► But it's certainly in the keynote, they make it seem like light mode is still the canonical one true lie.
00:39:15 ◼ ► Like, in the customized – in the customized, like, whole thing on, like, the – on the home screen, they renamed it from light to default.
00:39:29 ◼ ► But I think they want to believe that everyone's using light mode maybe because it – does it photograph better?
00:39:59 ◼ ► It's like they got the memo that we all wanted to customize, and they were like, is this good?
00:40:06 ◼ ► I find that very strange, though, that Apple seems to be steering, pushing people towards using dark mode.
00:40:15 ◼ ► But yet, when they present their own interfaces, like in commercials and stuff, it's light mode by default.
00:40:23 ◼ ► There might be something more than just tradition that I'm not thinking of, but I was hoping maybe you could think of it.
00:40:31 ◼ ► I mean, if you're shooting an ad, I imagine that you want, like, bright things on the screen rather than dark things.
00:41:21 ◼ ► And I've gone ahead and changed because I thought, I just thought right now as we're talking, wouldn't it be clever if Apple dynamically changed the web page depending on your mode?
00:41:37 ◼ ► Now I'm wondering, like, okay, John, what's the time on the clock on all of the screenshots?
00:42:46 ◼ ► Quip is a beautifully designed clipboard manager and text expander that feels like something Apple might have built.
00:43:18 ◼ ► So in other words, if you want, if you only want to copy to your Quip sometimes, you could set it to a custom shortcut like Shift-Command-C instead of Command-C.
00:43:35 ◼ ► I think that's a pretty cool feature for people who don't want to copy everything to their clipboard manager.
00:43:41 ◼ ► To me, that's the whole point of a clipboard manager is everything I've copied, I would like to have access to.
00:44:02 ◼ ► And one of the things that annoys me about a lot of them is that they limit how far back the clipboard history goes.
00:44:09 ◼ ► And I think that just sort of stems from 20, 25, 30 years ago or longer when memory was tighter, storage was tighter.
00:44:17 ◼ ► And people thought it was weird to have a utility that remembered everything you put on your clipboard.
00:44:35 ◼ ► Because I would love to remember everything I copied from a year ago and just have it available in search.
00:44:40 ◼ ► And it doesn't get in any way to have that massive history because what you see when you invoke Quip is just your most recent copies in order, top to bottom.
00:45:02 ◼ ► You can just set up custom shortcuts that you want to remember and have them expand anywhere you type.
00:45:07 ◼ ► Quip intelligence is their feature to use secure on-device AI to keep your clipboard clean and useful.
00:45:16 ◼ ► So if you have tracking links or if you copy something like a password, it uses AI to identify it and not keep that in your memory.
00:45:32 ◼ ► So when you copy programming code or HTML or CSS code, it'll automatically recognize that.
00:45:41 ◼ ► Just show me the code examples that I've copied recently, and it'll just filter to them.
00:45:52 ◼ ► It does sync between devices, but everything, including AI, runs locally on your device.
00:46:32 ◼ ► So you can copy stuff on the Mac, go over to your iPhone, switch to the Quip keyboard, and paste any of the items that you've recently copied on your Mac right there on your phone.
00:47:25 ◼ ► And I just did an episode last week with Jason Snell, and we talked about the transparency and legibility of liquid glass specifically, not the UI of these systems overall or the liquid glass scheme overall, but just sort of the legibility and the sort of tweaking that we've obviously seen Apple do through the first four betas as we record.
00:47:57 ◼ ► No matter how good a job Apple did or how polished it was come June, once they let it out in the world, this sort of change always needs a lot of tweaking in the beta period between June and September when these things ship.
00:48:27 ◼ ► Could the betas, some of that, some of what happens during the betas just kind of becomes nothing because it's not relevant after the release.
00:48:35 ◼ ► But if you think back to like Tiger era, did the UI change a lot during developer betas?
00:48:47 ◼ ► When they initially announced Tiger, I don't know if you remember this, but I do vividly.
00:48:51 ◼ ► But they had like end caps on the menu bar, like the left side of the Apple logo and the right side with spotlight were like the full height, full like blue aqua caps.
00:49:18 ◼ ► But I don't know how much like beta like software Apple releases changed that much, like the UI changing much as it does today.
00:49:32 ◼ ► There's a lot of updating that could just because be because of the scale that Apple's at right now.
00:49:53 ◼ ► I think it's because when there's only been five versions of Mac OS X, it's easier to tell them apart.
00:50:04 ◼ ► Yeah, if you're like Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, you're like, yeah, I know all of these.
00:50:22 ◼ ► And that's about five years after Aqua, which was unveiled with the Mac OS X public beta in 2000.
00:50:55 ◼ ► Stability, the whole, hey, we're not adding features, even though they did actually add a bunch of features.
00:51:20 ◼ ► And I think that's like, you're talking about, like, refining, like, the UI through the beta phase.
00:51:29 ◼ ► And that really was, like, fairly significant because it was, like, they were identifying all of the things where it was, like, was this too much?
00:51:40 ◼ ► I would even stretch that heyday all the way to 2011, which is when Lion came out and maybe things started going haywire again.
00:51:58 ◼ ► That those years when Apple and Steve Jobs and Apple's top talent, Scott Forstall, and the key designers and engineers who they picked to work on the iPhone and then the iPad.
00:52:25 ◼ ► But in an odd, counterintuitive way, that was very good for the Mac platform because it was like, I would have to guess that's because some of those designers that were, like, they were the Mac designers stayed with that.
00:52:44 ◼ ► Like, some of those designers that were working only on, like, platform Mac stuff moved to iOS and moved to, like, that's the touch interface stuff.
00:52:54 ◼ ► And those are the people who they had to care about the Mac because these other people weren't, right?
00:53:00 ◼ ► And so almost, like, in the separation of these two teams, right, you have, like, more clarity on both of these as distinct operating systems.
00:53:09 ◼ ► Whereas, like, now, like, ever since they've started to merge these, I don't want to say that they're trying to merge the actual operating systems, but merging the styles of these operating systems, I think that's when we end up with, like, holes in there where it's, like, what was good for one system is not necessarily good for another.
00:53:51 ◼ ► If the iPad can go to an 11-inch screen and it has these apps like Safari and Mail and Notes and the Mac has 11-inch screens and has apps like Mail and Safari and Notes, shouldn't they just be one operating system, you know?
00:54:05 ◼ ► I mean, because we have so many real-life conspiracy theory nuts who are literally running the United States government at the moment.
00:54:15 ◼ ► But it's sort of the Apple nerd conspiracy nut thinking of, oh, Apple's going to get rid of the Mac and replace it with the iPad.
00:54:24 ◼ ► And they had that one commercial that was like, hey, what is a computer about showing a teenage girl who's just using her iPad for everything?
00:54:41 ◼ ► It is a very different type of computer in a lot of ways, and I can totally see why some people like it better and why it might be forward-thinking in a lot of ways.
00:54:57 ◼ ► Is the implication there – was the implication that, like, kids just aren't familiar with that word anymore, even though the iPad is technically a computer, that they just don't use that word anymore?
00:55:12 ◼ ► And then Tim Cook had an interview somewhere, or maybe it wasn't even an interview, but he just – at some point, Tim Cook said in public that the iPad is our best expression of the future of computing.
00:55:26 ◼ ► People took that too literally as, oh, if Tim Cook says it's Apple's vision of the best expression of the future of computing, it means they're going to make all their computers work like the iPad.
00:55:40 ◼ ► Like, if you had taken Tim Cook when he said that and five minutes later asked him a question about the Mac, he would say the Mac has never been stronger and it's never been – because that's – he's just so – he's a cheerleader.
00:55:52 ◼ ► Even though his demeanor is sort of taciturn, he's an endless cheerleader for whatever Apple product he's talking about.
00:56:01 ◼ ► And so you get him talking about the iPad, he's going to say, yes, it's the future of all computing.
00:56:06 ◼ ► Well, I mean, well, I would say that they're in a little bit of a tough spot regarding that sort of, like, projection of, like, how they see all these products because they will say that – they will say the nicest thing they can about any one of these products, right?
00:56:20 ◼ ► They're going to be like, well, the Mac is absolutely the best computer that you can buy.
00:56:27 ◼ ► They're going to say, oh, well, the Vision OS is, like, how we see computing in the future, right?
00:56:36 ◼ ► God bless him because Jaws is the one guy who will say – and he always says it like it's half a joke, but you kind of know he means it, and it plays into people's cynical thinking about Apple.
00:56:46 ◼ ► But I think when Joanna Stern was interviewing him and Craig at WWDC, I know he said it on my show in years past, but you get him talking about the differences between these platforms, and he'll say, you know, there's an easy solution to that.
00:57:01 ◼ ► In some sense, yeah, duh, Apple wants you to buy a Mac and an iPad, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're conspiring to hold back elements.
00:57:15 ◼ ► Look, I think everyone would be crazy if they really think that Apple has tried out touchscreen Macs.
00:57:32 ◼ ► And I don't think people who think that are really thinking through, well, who then is that fooling?
00:57:38 ◼ ► Do you really think there exists anybody who says, I think my computing needs would be fully met by a MacBook, fully, except I really want at least one bigger than a phone computer that I can touch?
00:58:27 ◼ ► I think there's people that use their iPad a lot more when they're, like, relaxing versus, like, when they're working, right?
00:58:40 ◼ ► I get that, but I just don't think that, like, more devices – I don't know how many people are using a Mac in equal measure to their iPad.
00:58:53 ◼ ► And I'm not trying to throw it under the bus because I do like it for what it is, but I kind of –
00:59:06 ◼ ► I do read – I love it for when I'm on the podcast so that I can keep looking at you on the Mac and I don't overlap it.
00:59:19 ◼ ► And once I totally gave up on that, that it is only secondary, I felt like my productivity resurged.
00:59:27 ◼ ► I felt like the more I tried to do some of my work, like, maybe I'll work on my iPad until noon, and then afternoon is when I'll go downstairs to my office and work on my Mac.
00:59:46 ◼ ► And I'm a procrastinator by nature, and I felt the more I tried to use my iPad for work part of the day, the more it made my procrastination worse because there were so many things where I'd get to that.
01:00:04 ◼ ► It would be so much easier on my Mac than to do it here because I'd like to add a lot of links to this article.
01:00:11 ◼ ► I want to link a bunch of things, and switching back and forth from an editing view to the browser to copy the links and put them in is so much easier on a Mac.
01:00:21 ◼ ► And so I found myself, like, instead of doing the thing on my iPad, I'd be, like, putting it into the Things app or some other to-do system.
01:00:38 ◼ ► I've said that on the interview with Mike, and it's been clarifying for me as a way to be more productive.
01:00:44 ◼ ► And the iPad, for me, and the tools I use, and the way I work, and the level of unthinking, I don't have to think about it, proficiency I have on the Mac, command tabbing between apps, command tilde-ing between two windows in the same app.
01:01:58 ◼ ► Whereas, like, iPad, even though you're familiar with it, it's a little foreign to you because
01:02:07 ◼ ► I think maybe that's why that, like, that ad about what is a computer, like, makes sense
01:02:11 ◼ ► for younger generations because younger generations who maybe never really used computers in the
01:02:33 ◼ ► If I'm trying to, like, draw something, I'm like, well, that's where I guess I need my Apple
01:02:44 ◼ ► And I know, I'm glad you mentioned that because that would be the one thing I don't think anybody
01:02:49 ◼ ► would, I really don't think there's anybody who would say, I could do everything I want
01:03:20 ◼ ► was a laptop, but it swiveled around and then folded down so the backside of the display
01:03:39 ◼ ► Although I think when you folded it that way, they turned the keyboard off so that you wouldn't
01:03:48 ◼ ► I'm not super fussy about keeping my devices clean, but I'm not going to lay my keyboard
01:03:58 ◼ ► I mean, I think, like, I don't think anyone's really asking for Apple Pencil on the Mac,
01:04:05 ◼ ► If someone at Apple figured out a decent way to do Apple Pencil on my Mac trackpad just
01:04:16 ◼ ► in that case, I might be intrigued, but I don't know how they're going to do it on my screen.
01:04:24 ◼ ► That's what I feel like there is, like, tablet companies, their whole business model anyway.
01:04:29 ◼ ► I feel like a lot of those complaints are from people who haven't thought things through.
01:04:44 ◼ ► Well, it's the same reason that every time you look at, like, oh, here's a concept version
01:04:57 ◼ ► Like, I guess you made a pretty image, but it doesn't look like it actually would work in
01:05:04 ◼ ► I will also say before we move on, but that part of my frustration trying to use the iPad
01:05:17 ◼ ► And so if I ever tried it again, I'd probably be happier with iPadOS 26 and forward going
01:05:52 ◼ ► Well, this gets us, though, to, and I feel like the long journey that the iPad has been
01:05:58 ◼ ► on to get to the point of them doing the most obvious thing possible, which is where they've
01:06:05 ◼ ► And I think it's the single best, and I would say almost unambiguously good UI thing to come
01:06:23 ◼ ► thought this when it was just a rumor before WWDC that they were going to renumber all the
01:06:36 ◼ ► Six weeks in, as somebody whose job is to write about and talk about these things, it does make
01:07:01 ◼ ► Because they don't want to emphasize, here's the thing, if you think about it, think this
01:07:27 ◼ ► Maybe in general, and start doing like the Mac thing or the mid-2026 in parentheses off
01:07:34 ◼ ► Because then next year when they're still selling, like the way that you can go in the store and
01:07:39 ◼ ► buy an iPhone 15 right now, they don't want to have you buying one that looks like the year
01:07:48 ◼ ► Whereas the software, they correctly expect people to keep updating automatically when the
01:08:09 ◼ ► I do think it's weird that we're up to like iPhone 17 and they're just going to keep numbering
01:08:23 ◼ ► And the other thing that I get confused about now, I always have, is that the numbers of
01:09:02 ◼ ► And I feel like, yeah, at some point, they're going to have to realize that like this entire
01:09:14 ◼ ► When you go to the Apple store and you see like 10 iPhones in front of you, and if they're all
01:09:20 ◼ ► So like they need some distinguishing factor to be able to sell them as different products.
01:09:29 ◼ ► They did have a system for those early years, the system, which they've never officially,
01:09:35 ◼ ► but you could just see that they followed it was if the iPhone looks the same as the one
01:09:43 ◼ ► the year before, no matter how significantly upgraded the internals might be, the name was
01:10:13 ◼ ► They knew that the next year was going to be the iPhone 4, which was like, whoa, this is
01:10:30 ◼ ► They knew that they were like, oh, we've got radical, easily, like totally distinctive,
01:10:54 ◼ ► And then we get to like where, like where they were like, hmm, 8, 9, 10 was like a really
01:11:03 ◼ ► iPhone 10, like their justification for it was like, oh, it just jumped ahead in the future.
01:11:13 ◼ ► It really is that they just skipped 9 and the iPhone 8 looked like the 7, which looked like
01:11:23 ◼ ► There was a system, you're right, for a very short period of time where things, you could
01:11:39 ◼ ► I mean, like after we had the whole rounded phones, then they went back to basically, I
01:11:57 ◼ ► And it used to be steel, and then it was aluminum, and now it's titanium, but, or aluminum
01:12:23 ◼ ► Oh, I asked you, I invited you to be on the show, and you said, your three-hour podcast.
01:12:27 ◼ ► And I pointed you to a Todd Vaziri tweet where he periodically updates the average length of
01:12:43 ◼ ► David Hanemeyer Hanson was on, there's a guy named Lex Fridman, not to be confused with
01:13:00 ◼ ► All right, you have been blogging about Liquid Glass and these OS26 OS updates, and you have
01:13:15 ◼ ► I assume a lot of people listening are familiar with your work, but they may not be, it's the
01:13:21 ◼ ► And I hate this line of thinking that people criticize the UI of Liquid Glass, and then the
01:13:49 ◼ ► He's, in my opinion, the most accomplished film critic of the 20th century into the 21st.
01:13:56 ◼ ► And if you wanted to argue as Pauline Kael or whoever else you think might have been one
01:14:04 ◼ ► Now, Quentin Tarantino is a very good film critic and has very interesting taste in movies
01:14:16 ◼ ► But for anybody who feels that way, you are an accomplished both UI designer and icon artist.
01:14:25 ◼ ► You'd think, but I guess then I wonder, like, does that mean that people qualify me like in
01:14:36 ◼ ► But speak about your history in this field, like where you've worked and the things you've
01:14:41 ◼ ► Yeah, so I mean, I guess I was just, I mean, when I was a kid, I was just doing a bunch
01:14:51 ◼ ► And I started making iPhone apps like in 2007 before 2008, before the App Store existed, right?
01:15:17 ◼ ► I worked at Apple for only a year and a half, but I worked on iTunes, which I feel like is
01:15:37 ◼ ► I mean, that was the timeframe we were talking about, about like that, that time period where
01:15:45 ◼ ► And I mean, and I say this, I say this only because maybe people remember that period of
01:15:54 ◼ ► And so there was like, everything that kind of led up to that moment was fully Steve's control.
01:16:11 ◼ ► And you, for better or for worse, I would say most people probably agree it was largely
01:16:25 ◼ ► I mean, at that time, yeah, either, either it was, either it was Steve approved or like
01:16:37 ◼ ► There was like, there were certain products and certain facets of features that like he wouldn't
01:16:44 ◼ ► I think he entirely entrusted like the GarageBand team to just build GarageBand without like
01:16:49 ◼ ► But, but there were certain products like Mail, iTunes, where he had like a ton of opinions
01:17:01 ◼ ► And so I think he was way more hands-on and yeah, was approving like, like visual design
01:17:15 ◼ ► I can't say I knew him well, but just studying his career, reading all the books and, and it's,
01:17:21 ◼ ► it's very obvious, but he's misunderstood in some ways where if your viewpoint of him is
01:17:26 ◼ ► only superficial, you, you think of him as a singular genius control freak who micromanaged
01:17:34 ◼ ► everything and then they're like every single icon, every toolbar icon inside every app went
01:17:45 ◼ ► There's, it was too much, even, even 15 years ago, the scope of Apple's work was too much
01:17:51 ◼ ► for any one person who, you know, from, he couldn't, he literally could not QA everything.
01:17:59 ◼ ► Like it was already too big, but I'm going to make a note and try to find it, but he spoke
01:18:03 ◼ ► about this and a lot of the things he spoke about, he said multiple times in slightly different
01:18:09 ◼ ► But he said at one point that the reason you hire smart people isn't to tell them what to
01:18:19 ◼ ► And so the idea wasn't that the people designing the apps he cared about most had to might, he
01:18:27 ◼ ► The idea was he put you in charge of, put somebody in charge of iTunes or the iTunes interface.
01:18:35 ◼ ► And it's, it's the terminology inside Apple is directly responsible individual, the DRI.
01:18:43 ◼ ► And whether Steve Jobs was personally like week to week looking at the changes or not, the DRI
01:18:51 ◼ ► knew Steve might at some point come and look at it and they would have to answer to his
01:18:57 ◼ ► And so whether he was looking at it, oh, we're going to do a major new version of GarageBand
01:19:02 ◼ ► And maybe he wasn't looking at it every week, but whoever was in charge of it and was looking
01:19:37 ◼ ► So when I was hired, it was called consumer apps and I was working on a bunch of things.
01:19:42 ◼ ► There was like half the org was like iTunes, remote, trailers, Apple TV, that sort of stuff.
01:20:35 ◼ ► That if anybody's been using iTunes for 20 some years, and you've got one icon with a blue glow.
01:20:43 ◼ ► I mean, if I'm the one giving the opinion, I think the one that was the best was the green music notes on the CD.
01:21:09 ◼ ► And you could if you had, you know, but they were moving away from putting the CD drives, the DVD drives in the computers.
01:21:33 ◼ ► They managed that transition aggressively, which is what they do when they smell that the puck is going a different way.
01:21:49 ◼ ► And I know that there are the same reason that there, in theory, would be reasons to still put a DVD drive in a MacBook.
01:22:03 ◼ ► Well, it's like, you know, I think they, Apple thought that they were like, what if we just don't have SD card slots in our MacBooks?
01:22:09 ◼ ► And then people were like, well, and then they were like, okay, all right, you guys are going to have those back.
01:22:16 ◼ ► And I don't think anyone who needs a CD or DVD drive cares that much about the fact that they have to have an external one.
01:22:26 ◼ ► I remember, it's been a while at this point, but I remember long, long after MacBooks got much thinner than would support it, that there were so many standard PC laptops that still had the VGA port, which was just super old.
01:22:45 ◼ ► It literally is one of those ports so old that it came with the two screws on the side.
01:22:52 ◼ ► I would make fun of it occasionally when somebody would publish, some company would come out with a new laptop trying to be thin, but it was so thin that the VGA port looked ungodly weird because it was, like, almost somehow thicker than the laptop, which I know is impossible.
01:23:07 ◼ ► They're going to, yeah, if there's feet on the bottom of the laptop, then they're going to eat up some of that space with the VGA port.
01:23:15 ◼ ► And then I would get email from people saying, oh, but I work at a big, large university and all of our projectors are still VGA input only, and you won't believe how often, like, a lecture's about to start and nobody has a working dongle.
01:23:28 ◼ ► But it's, like, the reason that some of that stuff goes away is because the product itself that you're using doesn't support it anymore.
01:23:36 ◼ ► If you don't have the VGA port on the laptop, suddenly you are going to have to upgrade the systems at the university, wherever you're like, but if you never have to.
01:23:43 ◼ ► But there was a logical consistency there where we see the whole world is moving away from CDs and DVDs and discs in general, and we're not going to put these drives on our laptops anymore.
01:23:54 ◼ ► And so why in the world would the iTunes icon be represented by musical notes in front of a disc?
01:24:15 ◼ ► Like, they looked cool in a way because they were so, I don't know, 16-bit color or something.
01:24:29 ◼ ► I'm not going to say I, like, strongly disagree with you on this, but they were interesting because you're right.
01:24:57 ◼ ► But I mean, at the time, like, when your computer, like, doesn't have so much visually going on.
01:25:12 ◼ ► And I think that when you have a system where, like, most of what you're doing is, like, text-based stuff, icons basically define what the system looks like.
01:25:21 ◼ ► And I think Next, at the time, needed a different, like, approach to, like, how things would be so that people saw it and were, like, this is not what we were used to.
01:25:29 ◼ ► There needs to be, like, if I think, and I think that's what we see, like, when Aqua came out, like, after that.
01:25:34 ◼ ► I mean, we saw, like, Windows XP be very different from, like, Windows Classic in, like, 95, 98.
01:25:39 ◼ ► Like, they were intentionally designing, like, icon systems and Y that looked distinct so that you could tell the difference.
01:25:49 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm not going to say I didn't have a brief period where I was – I never owned a Next computer, but there was a time where I – I know that there was a time where I installed some series of system extensions on my Mac to give me Next-style Windows and Next-style icons.
01:26:20 ◼ ► It was, like, let's take these – the realism of these icons and the detail, like you said.
01:26:25 ◼ ► The folders were not, like – they were, like, super – they were more like those – I don't know what you call those.
01:26:36 ◼ ► Yeah, or, yeah, it's, like, either it had a strap or it had one of those kind of, like, strings that you, like, wrap around, like a legal binder sort of thing.
01:26:51 ◼ ► Right, and meanwhile, like, Windows and the standard classic macOS just had these super simple –
01:27:03 ◼ ► Like, with Aqua and Windows XP, I mean, then they had – they were starting to be more metaphorical with folders.
01:27:14 ◼ ► And then they kind of became – I don't want to say abstract, but, yeah, metaphorical.
01:27:19 ◼ ► But no real folder exists with, like, pinstripes in, like, a translucent blue – I mean, now they're – I mean, we got clear files all the time now.
01:27:26 ◼ ► It started a little, though, with classic macOS, and I'm not quite sure if that – I think sort of happened after Jobs came back to the company, and I don't know how much influence he had on it.
01:27:37 ◼ ► But the way that once macOS 8 went all platinum, which was, like, the theme revolution in classic macOS, the icons were still blue, bluish-purple.
01:27:59 ◼ ► That's – well, you posted about the Finder icon that I made, and that was exactly what I was getting at.
01:28:04 ◼ ► Because, to me, the Finder icon should always be that, like, purplish-tinted blue, because that's what Mac is.
01:28:11 ◼ ► But, like, even the platinum, like, quantum foam wallpaper that existed at the time was that tinted color, right?
01:28:24 ◼ ► And so there was, like, on the classic macOS 9, macOS 8.5 era, the icons looked different than – and they looked more 3D than they did before.
01:28:35 ◼ ► But they were still that classic Mac blue-purple, which real-world folders typically aren't.
01:28:44 ◼ ► But, and at the same time, Windows, like, even Windows 95, which, you know, supposedly was, like, the big, oh, now the UI is good on Windows, too, had manila folders.
01:28:59 ◼ ► Like, so the macOS ones were a little bit metaphorical, but they were, like, what if they were normal but we made them?
01:29:42 ◼ ► It doesn't matter where you are in Apple, but it's the sort of people who've always been drawn to work at Apple and I think sort of draws someone like me to write about and talk about Apple or for you to work on Apple platforms and design for them is you see something and it annoys you and then all of a sudden it becomes an obsession.
01:30:01 ◼ ► And somebody at Apple became annoyed by the way that pizza boxes have this fundamental problem where the middle of the pizza touches the top of the box and it kind of ruins the middle of the pizza.
01:30:13 ◼ ► And it's like nobody wants to eat a pizza where the whole middle part is sort of smooshed and stuck to the top of the box.
01:30:19 ◼ ► And even though we've all just generally accepted this, it was not tolerable for them, so they had to make it.
01:30:25 ◼ ► And somebody like Domino's put a pizza, like a little plastic table in the middle and it sort of solves it.
01:30:33 ◼ ► But somebody at Apple was like, no, no, we're going to design a box where this can't happen.
01:30:45 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I'm not – yeah, well, like, I love they fucking – I love they fucking patented it.
01:30:50 ◼ ► Even if someone took that idea, is that just not better for the common good of the world?
01:31:05 ◼ ► So the premise of The Bear, for anybody who doesn't watch, is there was a family-owned – again, back to sandwiches, a Chicago sandwich shop called – what's it called?
01:31:26 ◼ ► And the ones that they made on the show looked really good, but it was like a lunch counter, hectic sandwich shop, family-owned.
01:31:34 ◼ ► And long story short, it's the whole saga of Four Seasons is that one of the – the prodigal son of the family became, like, a renowned chef who had worked, like, in the French laundry in New York for several years.
01:32:14 ◼ ► But in the premise of the show, it's fine dining, and they're struggling financially because it's so expensive, and the guy is trying to – I'm not spoiling anything, but he's trying to do this thing where instead of having a set menu every day, every day they come up with a new menu, or they have a series of 30 different menu items.
01:32:36 ◼ ► But meanwhile, they're still running the sandwich operation out of the back of the restaurant.
01:32:41 ◼ ► And in fact, it's more profitable than ever because they got rid of the eat-in dining, and it's takeout only.
01:32:48 ◼ ► They super optimized that part of the business, and it's running out of just the window.
01:33:28 ◼ ► So, like, technically, they're not – and they do have Cafe Max locations all over, right?
01:33:36 ◼ ► They are not – they are not not well-versed in running, like, this sort of operation.
01:33:52 ◼ ► The first time I got to eat – I haven't eaten at Cafe Max many times, but the first time I had the opportunity to – and I forget who I was there with, but – and they were like, you can have anything you want.
01:34:26 ◼ ► I'll bet – but I'll bet that the best places in St. Louis – I'll bet the best places I would love, right?
01:34:50 ◼ ► And it is the kind of – and it's also, I think, very, very good, not coincidentally, for lunch.
01:34:56 ◼ ► Whereas, you know, like a Chicago deep dish pizza, if you eat that for lunch, you're taking a nap.
01:35:05 ◼ ► I mean, so many of the lunch things – I mean, you know, why are we talking about Cafe Max?
01:35:14 ◼ ► None of the other things – at the time, and admittedly, this was like 12 or 13 years ago.
01:35:19 ◼ ► But, like, none of the other things at Cafe Max would I think they could sell outside of Apple.
01:35:43 ◼ ► They call him – Tim calls him in, and he says, Alan, we've got a great opportunity for you.
01:36:19 ◼ ► People – they keep sponsoring the show because people who listen to the show keep signing up or sending friends and family who need a website to sign up to Squarespace with the code from the show.
01:36:36 ◼ ► Squarespace, if you don't know, or if you do, I'll just tell you once again, is the all-in-one platform for building your brand online with your own website.
01:36:47 ◼ ► And every single aspect of having your website, if you're like, I don't know how to have a website, I don't know what to do, just go sign up at Squarespace, and they will guide you through every single step.
01:37:00 ◼ ► If you're like, I don't know how to connect to a server, I don't know how to register a domain name, I don't know how to keep paying for a domain name, I don't know how to design a website, I don't know how to add features to a website.
01:37:15 ◼ ► All of that stuff, Squarespace makes easy, point-and-click, just look at it, they guide you through it, and they keep moving the platform forward.
01:37:26 ◼ ► About two years ago, they put forth – it's always been easy to do from a desktop computer, and it still is.
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01:40:21 ◼ ► Firstly, I maintain that it makes absolutely no sense that Alan Dye has the power that he has, because he simply has no taste.
01:40:33 ◼ ► And because it goes unchallenged, unchecked by someone higher than him, the entire industry suffers the consequences.
01:40:52 ◼ ► I think, and you do go into the details, but I think as a bracing first paragraph, and I know that there's a tendency that some people like to shock and awe and clickbait, that's not what you're doing here.
01:41:24 ◼ ► But like sort of a fashion clothing industry background, not designing the clothes, but designing the branding for those companies.
01:41:35 ◼ ► Actually, weirdly, there is like very little information about him that you can find out of what happened.
01:41:51 ◼ ► I want to know what like his actual, because all I have to go on right now is what is the org that he's in charge of, the things that they are shipping, right?
01:42:00 ◼ ► Like that's the only insight I have into what his taste is, because I don't know what it is other than this.
01:42:05 ◼ ► And I think that's where the whole discussion over liquid glass, quote unquote, is losing the forest for one semi-transparent tree.
01:42:18 ◼ ► Everybody's focusing on this see-through tree and, oh, the tree was very clear in the keynote.
01:42:35 ◼ ► You said earlier on the podcast, did other previous UI changes go through these sort of visible yin and yangs, back and forth, tweaking during the betas?
01:43:02 ◼ ► I think at a Mac world, I think Mac world, San Francisco in 2000, until the year or 14 months or whatever it was of public beta until Mac OS 10.0, it went through a lot of changes.
01:43:16 ◼ ► And then it went through a lot of changes from 10.0 to 10.1, which only came out six or seven months later because 10.0 had a lot of problems.
01:43:25 ◼ ► That when you do something that's really, wow, everybody, even casual users notice, oh, this looks new.
01:43:37 ◼ ► I think that you inevitably get this sort of visible back and forth once it goes from something they were trying to keep secret until they unveiled it.
01:43:45 ◼ ► And then, okay, now we've unveiled it, but we need some time to get it ready to ship for the public.
01:44:03 ◼ ► And I think it's emblematic of some of the things that Alan Dye personally and his team just don't get.
01:44:13 ◼ ► But I also think a lot of the stuff that we're seeing in iOS 26, they've been moving in this direction, but now they've taken a big step change.
01:44:21 ◼ ► But it has nothing to do with the style or how transparency or how frosted the thing is, but rather just a philosophical, complete lack of understanding of what UI design actually is.
01:44:36 ◼ ► It's like there was a period of time, I think, after I left Apple and I started my own company, and now I'm on version two of that.
01:44:47 ◼ ► Everyone was hiring us for iOS 6 style design that everyone now had to do iOS 7 design.
01:45:00 ◼ ► Like, I'm not just, I am capable of being a UI designer, but I would consider myself a visual designer.
01:45:11 ◼ ► Even if it, like, actually makes sense, I make sure it looks like it makes sense, right?
01:45:23 ◼ ► So the parts of this modern liquid glass stuff that gets me, actually, yeah, isn't the material stuff.
01:45:28 ◼ ► For the most part, I have to say, like, I don't like the glass, like, appearance for, like, the dock.
01:45:41 ◼ ► But it's, like, this other stuff, like, this deeper stuff that has been true forever, right?
01:45:54 ◼ ► Like, these quintessential attributes of both iOS and macOS just getting this complete overhaul without, guess, yeah, that full comprehension of what these things are and what they're supposed to be.
01:46:07 ◼ ► I don't know if it comes from, like, a lack of understanding or just, like, a disregard for that understanding.
01:46:16 ◼ ► I think it's a lack of caring that stems from a disregard or a disregard that stems from not caring.
01:46:28 ◼ ► A couple, some point after WWDC, so last five weeks or so, in talking about the unveil, I think it was right after WWDC.
01:46:42 ◼ ► I quoted from Alan Dye's keynote introduction of Liquid Glass and just a transcript of it.
01:47:04 ◼ ► The thing I've been trying to figure out with regards to this is, like, there was a tonal shift between the old Apple and, like, new Apple.
01:47:12 ◼ ► Well, I couldn't find it because I was looking for something started Thoughts and Observations.
01:47:16 ◼ ► But it started – I titled it One Week Out, Some Brief Thoughts and Observations on WWDC.
01:47:32 ◼ ► At Apple, we've always believed it's the deep integration of hardware and software that makes interacting with technology intuitive, beautiful, and a joy to use.
01:47:46 ◼ ► Like, it's the part that kind of – that really rubbed me the wrong way because it's like – I don't like the term corporate speak, but it is this sort of – it's gutless.
01:47:57 ◼ ► You're saying something that sounds like it's true, and you can do – you can show anything after saying that, and then you're like, oh, yeah, that totally makes sense.
01:48:15 ◼ ► Our goal is a beautiful new design that brings joy and delight to every user experience, one that's more personal, puts greater focus on your content, all while still feeling instantly familiar.
01:48:30 ◼ ► The one more thing is we have been secretly for the last 18 months designing a completely new user interface, and that user interface builds on Apple's legacy.
01:49:53 ◼ ► Remember, you used to roll over the red and you'd get a little X that would say, hey, here's
01:49:58 ◼ ► just to double emphasize, hey, when you click this one, it's going to close the window.
01:50:02 ◼ ► When you rolled over the green one, you got a plus because it was going to make it bigger.
01:50:36 ◼ ► To make it span the range so that people turning on their iMac for the first time were enchanted
01:50:44 ◼ ► And yet, our pro users also felt, my God, this takes me to places I never thought I could
01:50:53 ◼ ► We want to make something that makes new people who have never owned a computer and just bought
01:50:57 ◼ ► an iMac and it's their first computer feel like, hey, this is cool and I understand how
01:51:07 ◼ ► I had a friend who recently ish, ex-Apple, he had been there doing design work for 15 plus
01:51:28 ◼ ► But he said, I knew this because he had been there, started at Apple while Steve Jobs was
01:51:34 ◼ ► I don't know if he ever, I honestly don't even know if he ever interacted with Steve Jobs
01:51:43 ◼ ► But in that keynote introduction, Steve Jobs was talking at one point about the key window
01:51:49 ◼ ► and that this, here's how you can tell which window is the key window because it has input
01:51:57 ◼ ► And a window in the background, which wasn't the key window because it was in the background,
01:52:14 ◼ ► And he said, I forgot that Steve talked like that about using UI design lingo, like key
01:52:24 ◼ ► And he said to me that he had meetings with Alan Dye's team in recent-ish years, and that
01:52:35 ◼ ► And he said, I never got like cut off, but there was always an underlying tone of shut up with
01:52:44 ◼ ► And that when he would, when describing an idea, that their eyes would roll back in their head.
01:52:53 ◼ ► Meanwhile, though, they're the fucking team that shipped an iPad multi-window interface for
01:53:02 ◼ ► You and I have talked about this before, this exact thing that like, I said it like years
01:53:13 ◼ ► Why are we doing this right now where we are like backtracking on the things that we already
01:53:19 ◼ ► I mean, it doesn't really make any sense to me why it's hard to distinguish the inactive
01:53:24 ◼ ► But this goes to exactly what we were talking about earlier too, where it's like even different
01:53:34 ◼ ► The original Macintosh team had one bit color to work with black pixels and white pixels.
01:53:44 ◼ ► And they did things like they put pinstripes in horizontal pinstripes in the active windows
01:54:01 ◼ ► You know, there's all sorts of ways Mac paint had paint bucket full of them where the paint
01:54:06 ◼ ► bucket didn't have colors because it was a one bit screen, but it had patterns and the patterns
01:54:23 ◼ ► They settled on these stripes and it worked in a way where even with just black, you could
01:54:36 ◼ ► as the Mac OS interface evolved where user interface designers, it wasn't just we could
01:54:45 ◼ ► People love to make things look cool, but you could see that the user interface thinkers were
01:54:58 ◼ ► Due to the display technology that we now have, we have more tools at our disposal to distinguish
01:55:13 ◼ ► know what else they could have done is when the Mac interface was only black and white.
01:55:16 ◼ ► Let's say that a window or a dialog box is in a state where one of the buttons, you have
01:55:37 ◼ ► Well, they would use a 50% the sort of checkerboard pattern pixel by pixel to gray it out.
01:55:50 ◼ ► 50% checkerboard pattern at the pixel level, the word OK or the word next or whatever it
01:56:02 ◼ ► And so having color, even just 256 colors or even 16 colors, which some Macs could run in
01:56:28 ◼ ► I really could of the user interface designers discovering how to solve these problems with
01:56:42 ◼ ► But then with the greater like technological capacity, you were seeing like the clarity
01:56:52 ◼ ► But the way that it is now, and now it's fully distinguished from other objects, right?
01:56:57 ◼ ► That makes this, that goes for buttons, that goes for checkboxes, that goes for like inactive
01:57:03 ◼ ► I mean, like even what you said with like aqua, like aqua windows, the active ones have
01:57:12 ◼ ► And then the inactive ones are like gray, you know, that they're a little translucent to white
01:57:27 ◼ ► It made it so that whatever the active window was, if there were buttons, if there were
01:57:32 ◼ ► But if the window became inactive, they all became a grayish tone so that you saw this entire
01:57:49 ◼ ► Like there are still things that like have that fundamental principle, but there's like these,
01:57:54 ◼ ► like, if we, if we consider like modern liquid glass things, they have like kind of a couple
01:58:00 ◼ ► They have like the fully transparent, refracted, like fun version that they have the frosted
01:58:05 ◼ ► version when things are out of focus, but they use that frosted version sometime in other
01:58:11 ◼ ► And they use the like super refracted one in other contexts so that in a way that difference
01:58:34 ◼ ► I understand that that's like how the developer should be thinking about that, but that doesn't
01:58:52 ◼ ► That's where it really, I was like, oh, this is something that fascinates me endlessly is
01:58:57 ◼ ► that a good UI designer to me is also a teacher where they are teaching the user how to understand
01:59:06 ◼ ► the system and that once you understand just something that sounds as simple as if the buttons
01:59:11 ◼ ► are gray, that means they're in a window or otherwise not active for a reason because the
01:59:20 ◼ ► And now they'll light up as color and the window you were in, the controls will go gray.
01:59:26 ◼ ► But the other thing that that, just that simple example gets to is it was the windows controls
01:59:34 ◼ ► or the, and the apps controls and buttons and toolbar buttons in the scroll bar within the
01:59:39 ◼ ► window that would gray out when the window became inactive, but the content of the window didn't
01:59:46 ◼ ► So if you had two Photoshop documents open overlapping either side by side, the content, the picture
02:00:05 ◼ ► The content hadn't changed, but that way you wouldn't want that because what if you have
02:00:12 ◼ ► If you're comparing two things that you're trying to color pick from the other object, you need
02:00:18 ◼ ► Somebody says to you, an icon designer, here's the icon for go left and we need you to make
02:00:35 ◼ ► You certainly wouldn't want the content of the window to dim out because it's in the background.
02:00:43 ◼ ► And so the separation between the app interface and the content is essential to understanding
02:00:52 ◼ ► And so this whole philosophy, which you have written about, but this whole philosophy of
02:00:58 ◼ ► we're going to make the app interface fade away to put your content forward is doing the
02:01:10 ◼ ► It's, it's this very funny thing where they've just, they're, they're saying this thing.
02:01:17 ◼ ► I think when they say we're trying to put like content forward, I think that's what they
02:01:33 ◼ ► UI and the content so that you don't mistake one for another, that like you see which, which
02:01:41 ◼ ► I mean, like, this is a stupid example, but if I'm designing UI, then I need the UI of the
02:01:52 ◼ ► If the, in the new Safari on iOS specifically, but also on like macOS, but iOS specifically,
02:01:58 ◼ ► like when you scroll and it's got like that tiny, like little URL thing, it is like touch
02:02:04 ◼ ► It has this slight like glass appearance, but like on some websites that have their own buttons
02:02:11 ◼ ► in UI, which is not crazy to think about is unclear whether the buttons belong to the app
02:02:24 ◼ ► Like no one should be looking at the app, wondering whether the controls will do something
02:02:34 ◼ ► Like UI designers are teaching users how to use the interface and how to understand how to
02:02:40 ◼ ► And the clarity of an individual object in the separation of UI and content is critical to
02:02:46 ◼ ► There used to be a term in, I don't think they use it anymore, but in the human interface
02:02:52 ◼ ► That's for third-party developers, but like, but there used to be a term called perceived
02:03:02 ◼ ► By every app having the same distinct UI elements, you have this perceived stability on the platform
02:03:09 ◼ ► that people understanding one app meant they understood another app, that they could understand
02:03:20 ◼ ► The issue now is that like, we see like a new UI paradigm that throws out all of the things
02:03:34 ◼ ► Does that difference actually communicate like a fundamental difference on the way the window
02:03:44 ◼ ► And so the part that like, I guess frustrates me is that the visual designer that I am, like
02:03:54 ◼ ► And we scrutinized the trivial part of it, like in the iOS 6 era, being like, we didn't want
02:04:03 ◼ ► And now we're using visuals only for visual like reasons, like not to communicate the UI when
02:04:15 ◼ ► I further think that in addition to being disrespectful to the content by blurring the distinction
02:04:25 ◼ ► But I think it's profoundly disrespectful to the apps themselves because an empty app is
02:04:36 ◼ ► Photoshop or text edit or, and you hit command N and you have a brand new document that's empty
02:04:50 ◼ ► It is somebody, some team of engineers and designers and managers have created this thing.
02:04:56 ◼ ► And the more powerful a tool it is, the more it is a thing that you should be able to identify
02:05:06 ◼ ► And that it should explain to you what, if you're new to it, how and what you should start using
02:05:15 ◼ ► And this idea that all of these apps should, should sort of look the same and that a web
02:05:21 ◼ ► browser, like an empty Safari window should clearly look like a web browser because it should have
02:05:26 ◼ ► visible UI Chrome for the app that looks web browser-y like a field for typing URLs and search
02:05:54 ◼ ► And I know that the Corinthian leather as a specific one apps only theme was sort of over
02:06:00 ◼ ► the top, but it was better to, it was a better mistake to make or a better way to take things
02:06:05 ◼ ► to an extreme than this, where everything just looks like glass and it all goes away and the
02:06:18 ◼ ► I think in hindsight, I know I was never happy about it, but in hindsight, I think it's a worse
02:06:38 ◼ ► I said like, it is a moment in time where they were just like, yeah, we don't need that anymore.
02:06:54 ◼ ► It shows you how much is left of the page and it shows you like your position in the page.
02:07:00 ◼ ► These are three distinct things that it does and not showing it requiring your input to just
02:07:07 ◼ ► It's like, so that's one of the things that I talked that I was trying to reference before,
02:07:13 ◼ ► like where the addition of color gave UI designers a new set of tools to use to convey understanding.
02:07:28 ◼ ► So the original Mac scroll bars, the, the little thing in the middle of the scroll bar that shows
02:07:37 ◼ ► And for the original Mac in 1984 through somewhere in the nineties, I think in the Mac OS eight
02:07:53 ◼ ► So if you opened a one page word processing or one page, well, one page didn't used to fit
02:08:03 ◼ ► So it's a one page word processing document, but you can only see about a half a page at
02:08:18 ◼ ► It was still a square and the, I, I don't know if they were first, but I know the first platform
02:08:25 ◼ ► I remember with a dynamically sized thumb that was dynamically sized to represent the scale
02:08:34 ◼ ► of what's in the current viewport in the window proportional to the overall scrollable area
02:08:40 ◼ ► was next step next had that first, or at least the first one I remember, maybe some other
02:08:45 ◼ ► Unix E platform had that. And I remember when I saw a screenshot of it, it was like instantly,
02:08:51 ◼ ► it was like a light bulb went off. Oh, that's a bunch of, that's a brilliant idea because now
02:09:01 ◼ ► Without taking away anything. It didn't take, it didn't really, it didn't like you already
02:09:09 ◼ ► And so, and, and for shorter documents, which are more common, it actually gave you a bigger
02:09:15 ◼ ► grabbable area to drag it up and down. So in some ways it was more usable. And in the worst
02:09:21 ◼ ► case of a, like, again, a 200 page thesis document, it also wouldn't shrink below a minimum size.
02:09:28 ◼ ► Right, right. There was always some, yeah, right. What's the point of it? It's like, at that point,
02:09:33 ◼ ► you're like, I already understand this is big. It's not really helping me to have it be like
02:09:38 ◼ ► Right. But so we'll keep it at the size that it, on the Mac, it always was. And then eventually
02:09:43 ◼ ► at some point in the Mac OS eight era, the Apple updated the standard scroll bars to have that
02:09:48 ◼ ► feature. And it was like, it was like a glass of ice water in hell. Well, maybe not hell,
02:09:53 ◼ ► but it was like a delicious treat to Mac users who didn't have that. And it was like, yeah,
02:09:59 ◼ ► like the state of the art for scroll bar design has moved forward because now it's added this
02:10:10 ◼ ► And it didn't matter. It's not about the look and feel of the UI system and the next step look and feel
02:10:18 ◼ ► their style of making things look grayscale in 3d or the Mac OS 8.5 or Mac OS nine platinum theme. And it
02:10:26 ◼ ► had blue thumbs by default, but if you changed your system color to orange, then the thumb would be orange
02:10:32 ◼ ► to match the same color as the menu bar selection or the tech selection. That's cool. But it didn't have to it.
02:10:39 ◼ ► The idea that the scroll bar would be proportional was separate from the look and feel. And that's a different
02:10:48 ◼ ► type of UI design. And you could be there are I know people who are extremely talented UI designers in that area who
02:10:56 ◼ ► never, ever, ever would admit, I'm not a good illustrator. I'm not good at Photoshop. They would
02:11:05 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, and then that's why we've got the fun Haku ones, which had like the non moving pinstripes that
02:11:11 ◼ ► were masked inside. That was so, there was, there was no reason for that. Other than that, it was fucking
02:11:16 ◼ ► fun. And I think that's, that's, that's like the thing that like job said. It was like, it's like,
02:11:19 ◼ ► it makes you want to look at it. It's that, that's like a cute way of just saying you want to play with
02:11:25 ◼ ► it. It's just like, you want, and how many of us did that? I mean, we, to be fair, like, I'm doing
02:11:30 ◼ ► that with liquid glass. I know a lot of other people are too. Like for the visual component of this,
02:11:34 ◼ ► there is some like fun attributes like that, where you just like, you're just dragging around. You're
02:11:38 ◼ ► like, oh, that's so interesting. It's the same as like the genie effect. Yes. Technically, we need to
02:11:43 ◼ ► move the window to here. How do we do that in a fun, interesting, cute way? We can do that.
02:11:47 ◼ ► That's the visual interactive like thing on top of the good UI design that needs to exist from the
02:11:53 ◼ ► start. If you don't have that and you're only doing the visual part. One of my favorite purchases I've
02:11:59 ◼ ► ever made was, I was either a senior in college. I think it might've been right after I was a senior
02:12:04 ◼ ► in college, but it's like, I finally, I guess it was after I graduated and I was making some money
02:12:08 ◼ ► because I got a job and I got to buy like a home theater and I bought the biggest Sony TV that I
02:12:15 ◼ ► forget what size it was, but it was this Trinitron TV with, it was like a 36 inch Trinitron, but it was
02:12:21 ◼ ► huge. And oh my God, I lived on, at one point I moved to the fourth floor with Amy. It was the first
02:12:28 ◼ ► apartment. Amy and I got together and we had to move. It was like 10,000 pounds to move it up to the
02:12:34 ◼ ► fourth floor. But I got, I bought a Sony receiver and the receiver, I, I, you know, it wasn't the
02:12:41 ◼ ► highest end stuff, but I always loved Sony stuff, but I just love turning the volume dial. And it was
02:12:46 ◼ ► like this anodized aluminum that they had made concentric circles around the front face of it. And
02:12:52 ◼ ► you, it was kind of nice to rub your thumb across it. And it, even without turning the dial and the dial
02:12:58 ◼ ► had a nice feel to it when you turned the dial, but it felt good even just to touch the dial. That's the
02:13:04 ◼ ► sort of thing that Sony had. That's the sort of thing that Steve jobs admired about Sony as a
02:13:08 ◼ ► corporation. Like ultimately, yes, it was about how good the receiver made the audio sound and what specs
02:13:13 ◼ ► it had to drive speakers that were connected to it. But you know what, if you're going to make the thing
02:13:18 ◼ ► and you're going to sell it for a Sony level of pricing, the dials and the buttons should feel good
02:13:24 ◼ ► too. And so, yeah, if we have the capability to make the scroll bar thumb, do a weird animation
02:13:31 ◼ ► behind it as you drag it up and down. Yeah. We should do that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, I think
02:13:36 ◼ ► there's, so like you said, how like you good UI design is there to like teach users, like how to
02:13:42 ◼ ► understand like the UI of the app. I think that like there's like that level of visual design on top of
02:13:48 ◼ ► the good DUI design. The purpose of that is to make this stuff like approachable computers are a little
02:13:55 ◼ ► scary for a lot of people who are using this stuff for the first time. Anyone that's like using an
02:14:00 ◼ ► iPhone for the first time, there is like an intention or has to be an intention to make it fun and
02:14:05 ◼ ► approachable. It was like that. You were saying like that original, like aqua presentation, like he's
02:14:10 ◼ ► like, this is what a checkbox looks like. This is what a dropdown looks like. Like the first interaction
02:14:15 ◼ ► we had with iPhone was like slide to unlock and he did it twice because everyone was so into it.
02:14:20 ◼ ► There is like an important part of making things make sense, make them joyful. There's like delightful
02:14:25 ◼ ► thing because if you don't have that, then the entire system looks like something you don't want
02:14:31 ◼ ► to touch. Like, I don't want to touch that button. I don't want to interact with that because I don't
02:14:35 ◼ ► know what that's going to do. Right. The whole point of slide to unlock was just to make sure that if the
02:14:41 ◼ ► phone got activated in your pocket or when you're otherwise looking at it, that you didn't do anything
02:14:48 ◼ ► It had nothing to do with any feature. If you listed every single feature the original iPhone
02:14:54 ◼ ► did, it wasn't even number 120. It was like an anti-feature just to make sure you didn't engage
02:15:02 ◼ ► any features accidentally. But they made it look so good and so fun and like you would want to. And
02:15:09 ◼ ► everybody I know who got an iPhone, the first night it was like we're all waiting for AT&T to
02:15:15 ◼ ► activate our phones anyway. We just sit there and like slide to unlock, slide to unlock. It was so
02:15:21 ◼ ► good. I will genuinely joyful. Yeah, I like it. It was nice. I will toss this out there because I
02:15:27 ◼ ► haven't mentioned it or written about it in a long time. But on macOS, one of the top tips I would advise
02:15:32 ◼ ► everybody to do if you haven't done it is in the appearance settings under show scroll bars. There's
02:15:39 ◼ ► an option to it. I think it defaults to when scrolling. So you only just like iOS, you only see scroll bars
02:15:47 ◼ ► when you scroll. Turn on always show scroll bars always scroll. But even when you do show scroll bars
02:15:54 ◼ ► always like for the last 10 years of macOS, they look so boring. They're so they do. They're so unhelpful and so
02:16:01 ◼ ► unfun. Nobody's sliding them for fun at all. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was like,
02:16:08 ◼ ► yeah, I mean, like when there's an interaction, like it's like there is a little bit of it that's
02:16:12 ◼ ► like wasting time. But I mean, there is like some element that like through repeated action, you also
02:16:17 ◼ ► you do understand what the thing does, right? Like by making the scroll bar like a little fun, you do
02:16:24 ◼ ► understand it a little bit better because you're using it a lot more. Right. And there was I remember
02:16:28 ◼ ► hearing this, like, I don't remember when I heard this, who I heard it from or whatever, but like
02:16:31 ◼ ► that things like solitaire, like on windows, which is like this quintessential, like original windows
02:16:39 ◼ ► app. Right. The purpose of it is like to get people comfortable with clicking and dragging.
02:16:43 ◼ ► Yeah. It's just, and I'm like, oh, that's so brilliant. That's so smart. Get something that
02:16:48 ◼ ► like just hooks people a little bit, but that, that teaches them how to drag and drop like an item,
02:16:53 ◼ ► because that is what they're going to be using a computer for. It's so smart. Yep. And I just think
02:16:59 ◼ ► it's, it's ultimately very sad. And I think fundamentally, that's what it really boils down
02:17:03 ◼ ► to is that Alan Dye and his team are full of designers who, even if you like the style of the
02:17:09 ◼ ► work they're producing and the way it looks and whether you think it looks cool, only think about
02:17:15 ◼ ► it that way. They do not think about user interface from that perspective of it doesn't really matter
02:17:25 ◼ ► Well, there should be a very clear indication of which tab is, is the active tab in a, yeah,
02:17:30 ◼ ► like that is the entire goal of tabs. Right. I mean, I think if you look at, I think, yeah. What
02:17:36 ◼ ► other purpose does it have? Like there's, there's so many of these elements like scattered around like
02:17:41 ◼ ► Mac OS and iOS now with liquid glass, where you're just like, this defeats the purpose of the actual
02:17:47 ◼ ► like object that this represents. Why would it, why would it look like this? Why would it behave like
02:17:52 ◼ ► this? There's no real reason. No, I like John. Okay. So I wanted to say this, but I don't, I don't know
02:17:57 ◼ ► how to say it, but I, in preparation for talking with you today, I installed like OS 26, iOS 26 on my
02:18:05 ◼ ► personal phone, like just like last night. And I was like, let's fucking go, man. Let's like,
02:18:11 ◼ ► let's give this a go because I've been living with it on my Mac since like beta one. Right. And it's
02:18:15 ◼ ► and, and I have to say almost, this is so weird. Almost all of my complaints are actually about
02:18:23 ◼ ► Mac OS and less about iOS. Oh, definitely. I think, I think that shows so much. I mean, I, and I'm the
02:18:30 ◼ ► opposite where I've been using it, not on my main iPhone, but my iPhone 15 from last year, which I'm
02:18:36 ◼ ► trying to use all the time in the house because it doesn't have a cell service, but I don't, if I
02:18:42 ◼ ► had, I just don't feel good enough about it. And there's a couple of apps that kind of crap out.
02:18:45 ◼ ► Oh yeah. I mean, million percent, like it's a bad idea to have your main phone, but I'm like,
02:18:49 ◼ ► what am I going to do? But when I look at it, it's so much more polished on iOS 26. It is. It's more
02:18:56 ◼ ► polished and it makes it like, I don't want to say it necessarily makes more sense, but it's definitely
02:19:00 ◼ ► more fluid. We get none of the liquid part of liquid glass on the Mac yet. No, ever. I don't
02:19:06 ◼ ► know where that is. They do things and I don't even know how it's possible, right? Because in a way it,
02:19:12 ◼ ► but it baffles me. For example, it always has. I understand that there are a hundred times more
02:19:17 ◼ ► iOS developers than Mac developers, probably more than a hundred times. And you know that when somebody
02:19:23 ◼ ► who's developed iOS apps for years makes their first Mac app, they're going to make what I consider
02:19:29 ◼ ► to be beginner mistakes. Yes. Oh God. Yes. It's just because they make, because they're not
02:19:36 ◼ ► familiar with the system. But the thing that gets me is they make certain mistakes where I don't
02:19:42 ◼ ► understand how it's possible because I know they at least use a Mac to make the iOS apps because the
02:19:47 ◼ ► only way to make an iOS app is to use a Mac and X code. And I know that X code gets blank, right?
02:19:53 ◼ ► Like X code. I don't know what the example, you know, there's a hundred of them, but whatever it is,
02:19:59 ◼ ► X code is a pretty good example of standard, good Apple Mac UI design. And I know that you've been
02:20:05 ◼ ► using it for years because you've been making iOS apps for years, but somehow you've been using X code
02:20:10 ◼ ► and not paying any attention whatsoever to the interface. Okay. So hear me out. I'm not saying
02:20:16 ◼ ► this is the cause, but I do wonder like over the years with the iOS application of a bunch of things
02:20:22 ◼ ► and with iOS becoming like a more dominant platform in everyone's hands, like there also have been
02:20:29 ◼ ► simultaneously like a decrease in Mac OS, like native apps that were good at solving like a particular
02:20:35 ◼ ► problem, like a really good tool. There still are great ones, but a lot of people use Safari as like
02:20:42 ◼ ► an interface for web apps that they use a lot more. I mean, some people's docs look like Finder Safari
02:20:49 ◼ ► trash and you're like, what to leave? I can't even imagine it, but that is how some people live.
02:20:57 ◼ ► Yeah. I'm like over here, like using mail and some people are like, wait, what you can, there's a mail
02:21:01 ◼ ► app on iPhone. I'm like, Jesus. And it does make me wonder, I guess where I'm going with this is to
02:21:05 ◼ ► people just like that are making these apps, like for iOS that did come out of nowhere to make iOS
02:21:10 ◼ ► apps that never made Mac apps before. Are they the Safari web app people? And they're just not familiar
02:21:16 ◼ ► with like platform as a whole that they just like that for them. It's Finder Safari X code trash. Is
02:21:23 ◼ ► that the issue? I don't know, but it certainly seems like the people on Alan Dye's team who've defined
02:21:30 ◼ ► the Mac OS 26 interface are amongst those people. Like they must be using, they must be using Macs for
02:21:37 ◼ ► some of their job, but they're not paying attention to the why. For example, I know Snell and I talked
02:21:45 ◼ ► about this, but I'll mention it again, like the way that in Mac OS 26, that toolbar icons look like
02:21:51 ◼ ► they float above the windows and it makes no conceptual sense. It's not, oh, is it too clear? Can you read
02:21:59 ◼ ► it? Is it, do I like the glassy or whatever? It's the toolbar buttons by definition, by functionality
02:22:06 ◼ ► applied to the contents of the window. So they ought to, no matter what the application is of how you make
02:22:15 ◼ ► them look, it has to look like they're part of the window for it to make any sense. And if it looks like
02:22:25 ◼ ► And I would say that, yeah, if you're going to have toolbar items that levitate like that
02:22:29 ◼ ► without even just a clear, without just a line, like it is unclear whether it's there, like a line
02:22:35 ◼ ► would add a lot that would make it so clear where the window was. But if the content area is blurring
02:22:42 ◼ ► with the navigation of the app, yeah, I don't know. How do you get to that point? How do you get to the
02:22:50 ◼ ► point where you disregard that stuff, where you think that stuff isn't important? I mean,
02:22:59 ◼ ► like the fundamental thing you have to do is like live life. You have to go out, you have to look
02:23:06 ◼ ► at things. This goes for artists too. You have to like see real life. You have to experience this stuff
02:23:11 ◼ ► to understand it, to then develop an opinion on it. Right? So if there exists designers who do not
02:23:19 ◼ ► use macOS, who do not live with it, who do not, they will never understand it. Right? And they will
02:23:24 ◼ ► consistently misinterpret it. And that goes for independent developers. That goes for like
02:23:29 ◼ ► developers that work at like big companies. That goes for the execs, Apple's big companies that they
02:23:32 ◼ ► themselves don't use like these products. That goes for like the people at Apple who maybe just don't
02:23:37 ◼ ► really use it that much other than to design apps. Right? And I'm like, how do you like the only way
02:23:44 ◼ ► that we get to this point, I think, is that those people just don't experience it anymore.
02:23:48 ◼ ► I, I guess it's like, you have to buy a pizza in a bad pizza box that's ruined, but in the middle,
02:23:56 ◼ ► you have to actually buy the pizza and have the bad pizza to want to be inspired to design a better
02:24:03 ◼ ► pizza box. And so there's a part of me, I mean, I think I said this, but like, okay, so I know that
02:24:08 ◼ ► I'm picking on Alan Dalawa. Like I know I am doing that, but he is the person that's the VP in charge of
02:24:13 ◼ ► this whole thing. And took it on as he introduced it. He's the face of it. Like whether or not like
02:24:18 ◼ ► he's directly responsible for everything is like, just, it doesn't matter. But like, but like, I want
02:24:23 ◼ ► to see him do basic things on Mac OS. I want to see him execute certain tasks that are like, that should
02:24:31 ◼ ► be easy. I want to see him do it. I want to see him like do it on, on iOS. I want to see him close a
02:24:36 ◼ ► Safari tab. Why is it more difficult now than it's ever been? Like, I want to see the process of like him
02:24:43 ◼ ► using it and like, then go back to older iOS or older Mac OS. And I don't know, I wanted to like
02:24:49 ◼ ► experience that stuff. So maybe he understands it or someone on that team. I don't know.
02:24:53 ◼ ► I had a briefing with Alan Dye with a couple other members of the media, like second or third year of
02:24:59 ◼ ► Apple watch. And I, he was talking about how great it was five of us and him. And I remember where it was,
02:25:10 ◼ ► it was in a, like a yoga studio in the fitness center at Apple park. So I guess it might've been
02:25:15 ◼ ► later than the second or third year because the Apple park was open. And I, I had a question cause
02:25:21 ◼ ► I think they tweaked it in that version of the new version of watch OS, but about the way that they
02:25:26 ◼ ► were rendering. When you look at an analog face with the hour hand and minute hand in the second hand
02:25:32 ◼ ► on Apple watch that they, there's a Z axis, even though watch OS has always been largely flat it and
02:25:41 ◼ ► all watch. I've never seen any watch, even like a $7 discount quartz watch that you'd buy in a discount
02:25:48 ◼ ► store. Every physical watch with analog hands, the hands are stacked in the same order where the hour
02:25:55 ◼ ► hand is on the bottom. The minute hand is on top of the hour hand. And if there's a second hand,
02:26:00 ◼ ► it's on top of the minute hand so that the hours, minutes, seconds going forward and Apple watch
02:26:08 ◼ ► renders, the hands always has in the same Z axis ordered. It's not perfectly flat. And they render a
02:26:14 ◼ ► sort of shadow around things so that you could see like when the minute hand is slightly overhanded,
02:26:21 ◼ ► like it's not quite the time where the minute hand perfectly overlaps the hour hand. It's like a minute
02:26:28 ◼ ► beforehand. There's a little bit of a shadow so you can tell them apart. And I had a question about the light
02:26:33 ◼ ► source for the shadow. And I was like, oh, finally, I get to ask Alan Dye about this. And he was like, oh, we render a
02:26:39 ◼ ► shadow. And I was like, oh, you never even looked. I was like, oh, I just instantly realized you'd never really even
02:26:45 ◼ ► looked at it that closely. Like somebody at Apple has, but Alan Dye didn't. And I was like, oh, that's your job is what
02:26:53 ◼ ► you do. I just remember thinking at that very moment, it just suddenly came to me, oh, he doesn't do what I thought he did.
02:27:00 ◼ ► And so this is like this thing, I think maybe this must have happened after Steve died. And all the
02:27:08 ◼ ► execs like took on new responsibilities of what Steve used to do, right? Steve did used to approve
02:27:13 ◼ ► like all these individual things. We were talking about that earlier, right? Who does that now? I
02:27:18 ◼ ► don't know. It's not Tim. And it's not Federighi either. I don't know. Is it Alan Dye? I don't know.
02:27:23 ◼ ► Does Alan Dye look at some of this stuff? Sure. But who is it? And where is this coming from?
02:27:28 ◼ ► I don't know. And like, where does the direction come from? I don't know. Like the fact that we
02:27:33 ◼ ► actually don't know who that person is when it was very obviously Steve before, right? I mean,
02:27:39 ◼ ► like, why, why don't we know? I don't know either, but it touches upon, it was a talk I gave a couple
02:27:45 ◼ ► times, at least twice. I gave it at Macworld Expo, I think once. And it's, I think, Deconstruct down in
02:27:53 ◼ ► New Zealand, but maybe it was, I don't know, but over in Ireland, but I think it was Deconstruct in
02:27:59 ◼ ► New Zealand, like around 2010, that I called the auteur theory of design, which was using the French
02:28:06 ◼ ► use this term auteur, the author of a film to say that the director of a movie is the author of the
02:28:15 ◼ ► film. And that there is sort of traditionally, like the author of a novel is very clear. It's one person
02:28:20 ◼ ► who sits down and types out a novel. And sure, there's editors at the publisher who help polish
02:28:25 ◼ ► the manuscript. But nobody disputes that the author of Huckleberry Finn is Mark Twain, right? But there
02:28:33 ◼ ► wasn't this clear idea that the director of a movie is the one who gets a film by Steven Spielberg until
02:28:42 ◼ ► later, you know, because, well, there is a screenplay that somebody wrote like a novel, and that they did the
02:28:49 ◼ ► author of the screenplay, or authors, if it's a collaboration, wrote that. And every inch of the
02:28:56 ◼ ► footage of film was shot by a cinematographer with their hands on the camera. There are some directors
02:29:02 ◼ ► like Stanley Kubrick, who did most or a lot of the photography themselves. There's a lot of film
02:29:06 ◼ ► directors who've never touched the camera, right? And there's a film editor who takes the footage and
02:29:12 ◼ ► is responsible for cutting it into mise en scene. But that what and the actors are the ones who were there
02:29:18 ◼ ► speaking the lines and doing the action. And so what is the director? The director is the person who whose taste
02:29:25 ◼ ► the film rises to the performances of the actors, the look of the cinematography, the story and the dialogue
02:29:32 ◼ ► told in the screenplay, the way that it feels when it's edited together and the use of music and all of that.
02:29:40 ◼ ► The director, that is a breakthrough. And that software is like that, too. And that my thesis, and I think it's I still think it's
02:29:47 ◼ ► true, I should really want to read. I don't know if I'm gonna do a talk because I don't talk at conferences
02:29:51 ◼ ► anymore. But maybe it'll be a blog post or something. But to revisit that and look at the intervening years. But that my
02:29:57 ◼ ► conclusion was that the level of quality of the work of a company, whether it's hardware or software or something in
02:30:04 ◼ ► between eventually rises or falls to the level of taste of the person who's ultimately in charge of it and gets to say yes or no.
02:30:14 ◼ ► And I think we're seeing Apple's UI design, not the styling, which is a separate issue, but the quality of the semantic design of the user
02:30:27 ◼ ► interface sort of fall apart. Because like you said, I don't know that there is person, it's like trying to make a
02:30:34 ◼ ► movie without a director, right, right, that there is a screenplay, and there might be a very good person
02:30:39 ◼ ► writing the screenplay. And it's the most talented cinematographer is behind the camera. And there's a good film
02:30:48 ◼ ► And so this, this is exactly right. Like this, I do believe this is all the same with software, I think there's a
02:30:57 ◼ ► bunch of people working on this that like, I think all of these people can collectively say,
02:31:02 ◼ ► this is their app, or this is their OS that they worked on that day that they are the author. I think
02:31:07 ◼ ► everyone isn't everyone who works on this stuff is entitled to say that they that they made it like
02:31:11 ◼ ► unequivocally. But there has to be right, like there's this person that like everyone's meeting
02:31:16 ◼ ► that vision. And I've used the word vision to describe this thing like directorial stuff,
02:31:20 ◼ ► there is someone's vision that they have. And like, when it meets that, that's when we're shipping.
02:31:24 ◼ ► And I think it was so clearly Steve, while Steve was there, like that was the person who that was,
02:31:31 ◼ ► because he would go on stage and talk about things in a way that like had a level of familiarity with
02:31:36 ◼ ► like, I don't just know this, because I like my team worked on it. I know it because I use it every
02:31:42 ◼ ► day. There was this whole thing where it was very clear, but like, I'm not knocking on Tim,
02:31:47 ◼ ► like Tim Cook is like a good CEO. But like, but like, I don't think that he's the person that like making
02:31:53 ◼ ► these decisions. It's not him that's like that he's not the tastemaker at the company. And so and I think
02:31:59 ◼ ► maybe like hardware wise, like the tastemaker was like Johnny I for a long time. And I think in the
02:32:05 ◼ ► collaboration with Steve, he defined what that was. I think that the installation of Alan Dye as the, you know,
02:32:12 ◼ ► UI person at the time made him basically the tastemaker. Like you said, we don't know who it
02:32:17 ◼ ► really is. But he's the person that's on the face of it. He's the person with the title, like, for all
02:32:21 ◼ ► intents and purposes, he's he's the guy. Right. But I guess my question that I've had is, why does he have
02:32:29 ◼ ► this job? Why is he the person that does it? Because I think you and I like, even if you don't think like
02:32:35 ◼ ► Wes Anderson makes the best movies, I think we have to agree, like, he is the definition of that
02:32:39 ◼ ► author, like he is million percent that kind of person, right? So like, you have this clear vision,
02:32:45 ◼ ► everyone is in service of that. And you see it in the people that like are the cinematographers,
02:32:50 ◼ ► you see it in the people that are the actors that he chooses, everyone there is like fully committed to
02:32:55 ◼ ► the vision. And I think that was true. When Steve was there that like everyone and I've talked with
02:33:00 ◼ ► like friends at Apple, like that have been there that used to work there people I used to work with,
02:33:05 ◼ ► everyone agrees about this. Everyone was happy to let go of like their own personal like idea of how
02:33:14 ◼ ► things should be in service of the vision that Steve generally had. Yes, we were still making all
02:33:19 ◼ ► these individual decisions. Yes, we were still deciding how but we were all like in the back of our
02:33:24 ◼ ► minds is like, what is the thing that we are guiding towards? And it was always like toward the vision
02:33:28 ◼ ► that Steve had. So like the thing? Yeah, go ahead. Well, there's the type of clothing you like to
02:33:34 ◼ ► wear. And I, you know, I like very boring clothes and lots of grays and basic colors and navy blue is
02:33:40 ◼ ► flashy for me. But if I were picking the clothes for a character in a Wes Anderson movie, I know what I'm
02:33:46 ◼ ► supposed to be. You know what that's supposed to be. You wouldn't necessarily be the best person to
02:33:51 ◼ ► fit the wardrobe. But like, but like you under but you but the person who does do wardrobe for Wes
02:33:56 ◼ ► know that probably doesn't themselves dress like a when Wes Anderson, Wes Anderson, right, but they pick
02:34:02 ◼ ► clothes for a Wes Anderson character, right? And they're happy to do it. Yeah, because they're happy to do it
02:34:07 ◼ ► because yes, we we've just got like very few like real auteurs like who have like vision in the world in a
02:34:15 ◼ ► bunch of them exist in film, a bunch of them exist in other mediums, where it is a collaborative thing that they
02:34:20 ◼ ► work on. I mean, a lot of artists are like painting and they're the only people they don't have to have other people
02:34:25 ◼ ► working to that vision, right? But software is the thing where it's like, we do need someone to have
02:34:32 ◼ ► good taste, good vision that everyone collectively trusts. It can't just be for Apple, because because
02:34:40 ◼ ► that team develops for the entire platform. They're developing for every developer that like is going
02:34:46 ◼ ► to be designing things. They're designing it to the standards that this team develops. So everyone that is
02:34:52 ◼ ► like making apps, they're like making like liquid glass UI, they're all doing this stuff. And it's
02:34:56 ◼ ► like, everyone collectively is placing an immense amount of trust in that person, whoever that is,
02:35:03 ◼ ► that team to develop the best things. And I just think like, some of these people who are developing
02:35:07 ◼ ► apps have been developing like macOS and iOS apps for longer than those people have, and maybe have a
02:35:13 ◼ ► idea for what their app is supposed to look like. I'm not saying abandon liquid glass. I'm not saying
02:35:18 ◼ ► not put it in there. But like, maybe you have a good idea about what it's supposed to be.
02:35:25 ◼ ► I really think it's fascinating that literally aqua and Steve Jobs's introduction of it was we're
02:35:31 ◼ ► calling it aqua because it's liquid, that there is a sort of full circle to this. And going with the
02:35:39 ◼ ► Wes Anderson art director, right? What colors are you going to suggest for the interior of an apartment
02:35:45 ◼ ► that the scene is set in? Well, there's a lot of colors Wes Anderson uses in his movies,
02:35:51 ◼ ► but they're within a very narrow palette of colors. You're not going to pick most colors.
02:35:55 ◼ ► And when you're designing the shot, you're making sure it's symmetrical. There's a bunch of like
02:36:00 ◼ ► very quintessential characteristics, right? Yeah. And maybe you don't, maybe you as a cinematographer
02:36:05 ◼ ► like weird Dutch angles and stuff too. You like a different situation. But you know what you're
02:36:10 ◼ ► doing for this system. And aqua was an extraordinarily opinionated UI system. And it wasn't really to my
02:36:19 ◼ ► taste personally. Right. It was a little too childish or maybe childish isn't right, but
02:36:30 ◼ ► In those early years, I used the graphite option instead of the red, yellow, green button and blues.
02:36:39 ◼ ► I did. I liked the graphite though. And I also think that the graphite was not spitefully designed.
02:36:50 ◼ ► No, I think so too. John, I am unsurprised and I think everyone else would be unsurprised to know
02:36:53 ◼ ► that you prefer graphite because your website is also that color because the Yankees color is
02:37:02 ◼ ► At some point though, in the flattening era, I switched to the full color, red, yellow, green.
02:37:09 ◼ ► Because, because the graphite option in Mac OS X at some point in the last 10 plus years, 10-ish years,
02:37:25 ◼ ► Well, that goes, like when we were talking about like the tools available on the system to design
02:37:29 ◼ ► like different elements to communicate what those things are supposed to be. Like that thing you said
02:37:34 ◼ ► about going from like black and white checkerboard pixels to being gray. Like when we had more tool
02:37:39 ◼ ► to design buttons, you could design a button that looked active, disabled. You could design one that
02:37:43 ◼ ► looked inactive. It was an inactive, inactive, disabled. You could have this entire matrix of all of the
02:37:49 ◼ ► different states of a button and it was all super clear. When we reduce it down to just color,
02:37:55 ◼ ► it's like, it's just a rounded shape and it's got like a color or not a color, then it's, man,
02:38:01 ◼ ► that is so much harder to distinguish. And it does make it so that graphite, like as a, as a design
02:38:06 ◼ ► choice, then, well, then what's the difference between this and this button? It's, I don't know.
02:38:09 ◼ ► Yeah. Do we, Apple willfully took away things like depth from the toolkit of visual language that
02:38:17 ◼ ► could be used. But the thing is with Aqua in hindsight, I have a much, I feel much more affinity
02:38:23 ◼ ► for it in hindsight than I did extemporaneously at the time because I took for granted that it would
02:38:28 ◼ ► be a cohesive system overall. I, that was just table stakes for me. So of course it was a very cohesive
02:38:36 ◼ ► system of design. And now that, that Apple's UI design language is unsystematic in so many ways.
02:38:45 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. I look back at that and I think, well, at least Aqua was a wholly consistent within itself
02:38:58 ◼ ► pro apps like productivity apps for people who've outgrown things like text edit and that you need
02:39:07 ◼ ► something a little more serious. I think Aqua was a little too playful for Omni's brand, but Omni did
02:39:13 ◼ ► the right thing by saying, okay, but if this is the system design, we're going to embrace it
02:39:19 ◼ ► wholeheartedly and go all in on it, even if it's not really the right fit for our brand. And I think
02:39:24 ◼ ► that's why starting with tiger and into the lion and or leopard and snow leopard era, that 2004 to 2011
02:39:34 ◼ ► era, why it was such a golden age was that the playful consumer apps like iTunes could still be
02:39:42 ◼ ► playful and consumery, but the design language had evolved into a slightly more serious way where
02:39:50 ◼ ► serious pro apps could look even more serious and proie, right? Like I think that's final, the early
02:39:57 ◼ ► versions of final cut pro are some of the best looking pure UI design I've ever seen. And those
02:40:04 ◼ ► early versions of iMovie looked less pro, but they also looked sort of like, Hey, this is not like a
02:40:13 ◼ ► super casual app. Even if you're using iMovie to make your home movies, you're doing something kind of
02:40:19 ◼ ► serious, right? You're hooking up a firewire camera and you're importing all this video and you're
02:40:23 ◼ ► editing video. You're taking, you're, you're becoming a video editor. So it looked a little
02:40:28 ◼ ► more serious than, I don't know, the calculator app or something. I don't know, but the language of that
02:40:34 ◼ ► era of Apple design encompassed that range that Steve Jobs set out to cover from novice.
02:40:42 ◼ ► I think, yep, yep. I think that the style, the style of Aqua though was so adaptable and now it's
02:40:48 ◼ ► what made it work. And like those other products that you're talking about, those like productivity
02:40:52 ◼ ► tools or pro apps, they didn't ignore Aqua. They acknowledged Aqua. They understood what it was
02:40:58 ◼ ► trying to do. They adapted it to their product. Aperture was like entirely graphite. The UI was
02:41:05 ◼ ► graphite. The buttons were graphite. The window was graphite, right? I mean, there's some of those
02:41:11 ◼ ► things where it's like these, these kinds of apps, like even GarageBand was super playful, right? Now
02:41:16 ◼ ► like in comparison to like these other apps, GarageBand had like wood on the side of the, but it was just,
02:41:22 ◼ ► but it was like, but it like took away almost no screen real estate. Nobody cares. Like it's no big
02:41:27 ◼ ► deal, but it's, but it puts you in, it puts you in a mood. It puts, it puts a visual clarity on what
02:41:31 ◼ ► this app is versus what this other app is. But at no point that it looked like it was not part of the
02:41:36 ◼ ► same system. And I think it's because there was like a, there was a visual richness to Aqua that
02:41:43 ◼ ► was like, okay, so the system looks like this. So we, even if we have buttons that are rich Corinthian
02:41:49 ◼ ► leather, even if we have buttons that are wood, right? Even if we have these other materials,
02:41:53 ◼ ► they need to match this level of quality, right? Of this visual quality that this has. And it's like
02:41:59 ◼ ► this thing that everyone is working on this movie, right? Everyone sees what the direction is and
02:42:04 ◼ ► everyone's like, okay, so in the Aqua cinematic universe, there's actually more room for than
02:42:08 ◼ ► just Aqua, right? And that was true on iOS too, right? I mean, like early iOS stuff, like when it
02:42:15 ◼ ► was iPhone OS, right? iPhone OS had all of these different kinds of material qualities to it where
02:42:21 ◼ ► like any app could do whatever it wanted, especially because it was taking up the full screen at the
02:42:26 ◼ ► time, right? I mean, like you could do anything and it was not incongruous with the system, but
02:42:30 ◼ ► like as long as you acknowledged like what the system was trying to do, then you could play with
02:42:34 ◼ ► it a little bit. Can you do that with liquid glass? Because it feels to me that if it doesn't look
02:42:41 ◼ ► like liquid glass, then it looks wrong on the platform, right? There's no alternative quality.
02:42:46 ◼ ► There's no alternative material to use. It's not like you can suddenly use paper, but make it looks
02:42:51 ◼ ► like it belongs in the liquid glass cinematic universe. And that's why I'm so disappointed overall
02:42:56 ◼ ► with the big new UI. Like when it was, we didn't even know what it was supposed to look like, but
02:43:00 ◼ ► there were rumors for the last year that Apple's doing a big platforms spanning UI redesign and that
02:43:08 ◼ ► it's going to add some kind of texture and glass and something. And I was so hopeful that it would bring
02:43:15 ◼ ► back some of that era. Yeah. Some of that tactical quality, some of that richness. Yeah. And just the
02:43:23 ◼ ► fucking fun, right? Like the first voice recorder app that looked like an exquisitely rendered reel
02:43:30 ◼ ► to reel tape machine. Because what are you doing when you're recording a voice memo or a memo? Well,
02:43:37 ◼ ► the app, the phone just sits on a fucking table while you talk. You hit a record button and you're like,
02:43:44 ◼ ► I'm going to record this conversation, this meeting, and it's just sitting there on the table. And so
02:43:49 ◼ ► what's shown on screen? Well, at that point, at that point, because you know that you don't need
02:43:55 ◼ ► that screen in that moment, that's like the open door to like ornamentation and fun and silly.
02:44:00 ◼ ► Right. Yeah. That old voice recorded, the original voice recorder interface made me want to make voice
02:44:06 ◼ ► memos. It just made me want to use it to hit. You're talking, you're talking about the podcast app,
02:44:11 ◼ ► but the voice, the voice recorder had the VU meter, right? Oh, that's right. It was like,
02:44:15 ◼ ► I have the yellow screen with all the VU interface. Yes. But it made me want to listen to podcasts.
02:44:20 ◼ ► Right. Right. And it's, and it was so silly because it's like, you could swipe away the album art of the
02:44:24 ◼ ► whole thing and see the reel to reel actually working. And it was like, yeah, it's super cool. And it's
02:44:33 ◼ ► is like iBooks, like the original iBooks on iPad was like, it was like trying to be a physical book,
02:44:40 ◼ ► which like is a little silly. Like when you think about it, but like, but like the page actually
02:44:45 ◼ ► moving with your finger, the UI existing on the page, you understood it. Like the skeuomorphism of
02:44:52 ◼ ► this made it fun. In addition to being like helpful thing for you to understand what it is that you're
02:44:57 ◼ ► looking at. Right. And when it was cool looking to turn pages, it made you want to read the book
02:45:02 ◼ ► and turn the pages. Right. Yeah. I really, I really think so. Yeah. And I do think I do. I've always
02:45:07 ◼ ► thought one of the worst. So most canards and idioms are, there's a lot of truth to them. I think one of
02:45:15 ◼ ► the worst is that you can't judge a book by the cover because I judge all books by the cover.
02:45:19 ◼ ► Yeah. That's what we're all doing. Yeah. And I'm not saying that there are, can't be a great book
02:45:24 ◼ ► with a bad cover and there can't be, there aren't books with very good covers that are bad books,
02:45:29 ◼ ► but there is a correlation between the quality of cover design and the quality of books.
02:45:33 ◼ ► It's like the chair that you put into it overall. It's not just the content of it. If you know that
02:45:40 ◼ ► the content is good, you better bet like you want that cover to be representative of the quality that
02:45:46 ◼ ► you put inside the book. And the most important thing in a book is the quality of the prose and the
02:45:51 ◼ ► meaning of it itself, of course, but a good book on printed on good paper with good typesetting in a
02:45:59 ◼ ► good typeface makes me want to read it even more. Yeah. And a book in a bad typeface printed on cheap
02:46:06 ◼ ► paper makes me want to read it less. So here's, so here's my, my, and the same is true for user
02:46:13 ◼ ► interfaces. Right. And so here's my question with that is if everyone skates toward this liquid glass
02:46:17 ◼ ► puck and everyone's app starts to look like this, we're all deciding that we're okay with our apps
02:46:24 ◼ ► looking like they're what Apple says they should look like. And it kind of removes a bunch of the
02:46:30 ◼ ► freedom, the capability that we once had to design apps. We're like relinquishing this control,
02:46:36 ◼ ► right. Of how this is supposed to look. And in doing so, all, every app like now looks the same,
02:46:42 ◼ ► right. Like they all look like they have the same like fundamental controls. If you're a third
02:46:47 ◼ ► party developer, do you do that? I've heard people talk about not implementing liquid glass,
02:46:52 ◼ ► which also seems like a bad idea. I don't know the right solution here because we're kind of in like
02:46:56 ◼ ► between two really tough situations. Like you can play it fun and different and not liquid glass,
02:47:07 ◼ ► all the old apps that were not using Aqua that were using custom interfaces, we were all doing
02:47:12 ◼ ► the same thing then. We were like, well, by not using a real button, that means we have to make
02:47:16 ◼ ► our own states. We have to make all of the states and we have to design our own buttons. And it was
02:47:20 ◼ ► more difficult to do than just using stock UI. Right. Because you, there's all sorts of edge,
02:47:32 ◼ ► Yeah. And this is the thing, this is, I mean, of course, I mean, we, we, we, we could talk about
02:47:36 ◼ ► this part forever, but non-native apps on Mac OS that don't actually behave like they're native
02:47:42 ◼ ► apps. Even though you understand the thing, it's like for ages, like discord, like just kind of an
02:47:48 ◼ ► awful app all around. It's just like, I would use discord. And it's like, if you hover over the
02:47:52 ◼ ► window control, they didn't have that X minus like plus thing. And you're like, but that's what it's
02:48:03 ◼ ► That's what I was like. Yeah. And so when making apps, I feel like using what the system provides
02:48:08 ◼ ► for free is always, always quote, quote, a sound idea because you get inherited all of these decisions.
02:48:15 ◼ ► Right. But when you no longer trust that the decisions are being made in good taste, in good
02:48:21 ◼ ► conscience, like in, if you don't believe in it anymore, what do you do? And I think the lack of
02:48:28 ◼ ► material quality is like a real bummer. Like the fact that no one can make a button look like anything
02:48:33 ◼ ► else other than glass. Like what if your app just doesn't like jive with that? What if it's just not
02:48:39 ◼ ► what that app is supposed to look like? I keep wondering what does Final Cut Pro look like in this
02:48:44 ◼ ► world? I like, cause we talked about how that would acknowledge like the system and then design
02:48:56 ◼ ► I just like the material stuff. It's like, how are we going to communicate everything with glass?
02:49:02 ◼ ► Why is like, why is it an eyedropper rubber part? Why is it glass? Why is it now glass? That
02:49:09 ◼ ► doesn't make any sense. Even, even though the other part of the eyedropper is supposed to be glass.
02:49:15 ◼ ► Yeah. It doesn't even look like glass in that context anymore. It doesn't look like it's supposed
02:49:20 ◼ ► to. Like developers are giving up this sort of control to Apple to decide what their apps are
02:49:25 ◼ ► supposed to look like. And I wonder on a brand level, so many companies are doing the same thing.
02:49:30 ◼ ► They're going to have to start looking at their apps being like, do we want to pivot our brand to
02:49:35 ◼ ► looking like this now? If you're black and Decker, do you want your app to look like it's
02:49:40 ◼ ► this fragile? You know, like that sort of element? I don't know. That doesn't make any sense to me.
02:49:44 ◼ ► You know, we were talking about like the tone of how Apple's talking about this stuff. And I think
02:49:48 ◼ ► it's an interesting difference because Steve used to be like, this is done just because it's cool.
02:49:52 ◼ ► Whereas like now it's, this is glass and yeah, maybe it is cool. But if every app starts using it as
02:49:59 ◼ ► their like app icons as their, as their like primary branding element, like they're, Apple's making
02:50:05 ◼ ► that decision for people. You know how they do this with like app icons? They're like, we're, this, this
02:50:11 ◼ ► developer did not update for the liquid glass aesthetic. However, we did it for you. Yeah. And it's actually
02:50:17 ◼ ► what ego does that have? Like it is implicated. Suddenly you're making decisions for these other
02:50:22 ◼ ► companies of what their logo should look like. What can you imagine other companies doing this for
02:50:28 ◼ ► Apple? No, no, no. We're going to make the Apple logo like this appearance. What? So I kind of feel
02:50:36 ◼ ► that way about the option to make clear icons, right? Yes. That same. Exactly. It's like the developer
02:50:42 ◼ ► didn't choose that. The designer didn't design. I mean, like we can design for it in hopes of it,
02:50:46 ◼ ► I totally get the light mode, dark mode and okay. Now we're going to have and recommend dark mode
02:50:52 ◼ ► icons, but the clear mode, like if the color is essential to your brand, it's right. It's suddenly
02:51:00 ◼ ► it just is, it's not like they're saying everyone should have an identifiable glitch. And I think
02:51:06 ◼ ► that's what I do all day, John. I draw iPhones for a living, right? I don't know how to, I don't think
02:51:12 ◼ ► every app can fit that model, right? It works for Apple's own apps. They can make the phone app,
02:51:17 ◼ ► just the fucking telephone glyph. Okay. But not everyone can make just the telephone glyph for
02:51:21 ◼ ► their own VoIP app. You have to make it distinct from Apple's. So you're going to have to decide not
02:51:27 ◼ ► just a different glyph, but a different metaphor or a different visual style. And it's, if you're also
02:51:31 ◼ ► limited by material, it's like the thing we were talking about. It's like, we have all these tools now
02:51:36 ◼ ► with the visual interface. We don't have to do just the black and white checkerboard anymore,
02:51:40 ◼ ► but now we're like, but now you have to do glass. And it's like, for app icons, I just don't see how
02:51:45 ◼ ► that makes sense. I don't either. And I, as a proprietor of a company like Parakeet that makes
02:51:52 ◼ ► app icons all the time, I'm just like, will all of our app icons just look like glass now?
02:52:00 ◼ ► Do you think there's going to, when this ships in the fall and the updates come out and everybody's
02:52:06 ◼ ► whatever version 26.1 that Apple decides, okay, this is good to push to everybody. And remember,
02:52:12 ◼ ► 26.0 in mid-September will go to everybody who gets an iPhone 17 on day one, right? You don't have an
02:52:19 ◼ ► option. So there will be millions of people who get this in September. Do you think there's going to be
02:52:32 ◼ ► No, I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying like, it's another level, right, to get there. And it's
02:52:42 ◼ ► There's going to be tons of people that won't notice a difference or that will, but they won't
02:52:45 ◼ ► be able to put their fingers on it. Like, I get that. There's people that don't use their
02:52:58 ◼ ► they made the decisions that they did, right? I think they will be like, wait, where did
02:53:05 ◼ ► was so confused about it. Like, you got rid of the tab bar so you could put all this long
02:53:14 ◼ ► to know. It's like this thing. I think, you know, like you brought up Todd Vaziri before.
02:53:19 ◼ ► Like he says this about, you know, when people say it's bad CGI, is it really that it's bad
02:53:24 ◼ ► CGI or is it just that like something else in the movie like was bad and you're directing
02:53:29 ◼ ► all of your attention on the visual thing you can see, right? If that same thing applies,
02:53:34 ◼ ► people might feel uncomfortable with this new version of the OS. They might look at it and
02:53:38 ◼ ► be like, it's the visual material. God damn it. That glass, it looks bad. And it's like,
02:53:42 ◼ ► maybe it's not that. Maybe it's the UI underlying the thing, but they just don't have the vocabulary
02:53:51 ◼ ► I can't read the song that's playing. Right. And I think a lot of people already have been
02:53:55 ◼ ► doing that. And so I think that's indicative of how it will go publicly. But like, I think
02:53:59 ◼ ► like we've been talking about, I think the real issue is UI stuff. And I think especially UI stuff
02:54:05 ◼ ► on Mac OS. I don't know if Mac OS users, the diehard Mac OS users will really care. They will find
02:54:11 ◼ ► this like deeply upsetting, but like the people who casually use any of this stuff, they probably
02:54:15 ◼ ► won't even notice. Yeah. That's why it makes it so hard to predict whether there's going to be a
02:54:20 ◼ ► backlash. I'm surprised. I was very surprised. Personally, I use the photos app a lot. I mean,
02:54:24 ◼ ► photos is my main photo store and I take a lot of pictures and I don't love all the changes from last
02:54:29 ◼ ► year's photos, but I didn't feel, and I'm just literally, literally my job is to complain about
02:54:34 ◼ ► Apple UI and I didn't find photos app that bad. But I kind of grew over the year. I started trying to
02:54:42 ◼ ► listen to what people were saying. And like TikTok videos were very poor form. One minute of vertical
02:54:47 ◼ ► video was a very poor, but I eventually got it is that people did use the tab bar and they did want
02:54:54 ◼ ► the main tab to just show their photos. And now it didn't. And that they had all the stuff at the
02:54:59 ◼ ► bottom that they didn't want when they just wanted their photos. And I'd say, Oh yeah, that is kind of
02:55:04 ◼ ► a big change. And it was more of a backlash. So I, I, I kind of hope, I mean, I kind of hope that
02:55:11 ◼ ► there's like photos last year's photos times 10 knee jerk reaction to this and that it leads to change.
02:55:20 ◼ ► Am I saying, I think Alan Dye should be fired. I don't know. I don't know, but maybe, or maybe,
02:55:27 ◼ ► you know, again, like maybe, I don't know who's in charge. Maybe, I don't know. But maybe instead
02:55:32 ◼ ► of firing him, they start selling pizzas out of the back of Apple stores and Alan Dye can run that
02:55:39 ◼ ► and do the graphic design on the boxes. Do the menus. I think Alan Dye could kill that with his Levi's
02:55:49 ◼ ► experience, right? I think it's the Kate Spade that'll really seal the deal. Like John, if there
02:55:56 ◼ ► is all of this, if there is a theoretical backlash, you know how Apple's doing this thing now where
02:56:01 ◼ ► like actually on iOS now, they're doing it with mail. They're doing it with photos, I think. And on
02:56:07 ◼ ► phone, they definitely did. They were like, here, try out this alternate UI. I don't know if you've
02:56:12 ◼ ► noticed this, but you open the phone app and it's like, we have this new unified UI. We put voicemails
02:56:16 ◼ ► and memos and whatever. And they do with mail. They're doing, they basically did that with all
02:56:21 ◼ ► of photos. And that's what, like, it was just forcibly, right? But they're doing this thing
02:56:24 ◼ ► where they're like, hey, you can try this other thing or go back to the old way or whatever.
02:56:28 ◼ ► And I, I think this is a very odd place for them to be in where they're going to start offering like
02:56:33 ◼ ► alternate UI for like basically every app. And you don't have to go to settings to do it into the app and
02:56:40 ◼ ► then scroll down and find it. It's right there in the upper right corner of the phone app in,
02:56:44 ◼ ► in what I'm guessing is called the filter button. It's like an upside down three line. Yeah. Yeah.
02:56:50 ◼ ► But you tap it and right at the top permanently, it doesn't go away is a big toggle between unified
02:56:55 ◼ ► and classic. Right. And it's like, how long are they going to put this up? And it's just like,
02:56:59 ◼ ► how long are they going to have that as an option? How long are they going to put it there? I don't
02:57:03 ◼ ► know, but they've been doing this with more and more apps. And it's like, maybe that allows people to
02:57:07 ◼ ► have the app that they want. I mean, I'm all for like general app customization. I feel like I got
02:57:12 ◼ ► to say that, but, but, but the original iPhone had the more tab and you could put whatever tab you
02:57:18 ◼ ► wanted in the tab bar. For some reason, we let go of this perfect solution for all of these problems.
02:57:25 ◼ ► If you had to make your own tab bar for literally every app, then no one would have been complaining
02:57:29 ◼ ► about the photos app because you could put whatever you wanted there. The issue wasn't that,
02:57:33 ◼ ► I can have pinned collections. The issue was like, Hey, actually I use the max view a lot.
02:57:37 ◼ ► Why can't that be a tab bar item? I just want quick access to it. That's all I'm asking. And I think
02:57:43 ◼ ► Apple's like fake solution to this is, Hey, have you considered making a shortcut for that? You can make
02:57:48 ◼ ► a shortcut to do anything. I'm like, yeah, technically I know, but that's a weird backdoor thing that requires
02:57:53 ◼ ► like a significant knowledge of like how to do this. You actually have to build UI for people
02:57:58 ◼ ► to like just quickly access this stuff. You could, it's one of my favorite features in app kit. It is
02:58:04 ◼ ► still there. It's still there in all good Mac apps, but you go to usually in the view menu, edit toolbar or
02:58:11 ◼ ► edit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the view menu, customized toolbar and it's a standard feature of
02:58:19 ◼ ► app kit. And it opens up a standard menu where you have a bunch of toolbar buttons and you can create a
02:58:26 ◼ ► minimal interface by taking out standard toolbar buttons. You can reorder them to put the ones
02:58:32 ◼ ► that it's sort of like the difference. I often use this analogy. It's the difference between designing
02:58:37 ◼ ► plastic toys through injection molding, where you're creating metal dyes and pouring hot plastic into a
02:58:44 ◼ ► metal dye to create your own custom toy or snapping together Lego bricks and building your own toys. And yes,
02:58:51 ◼ ► your Lego creations are not as refined as a custom toy that Hasbro is selling shrink wrapped in and bubble
02:58:59 ◼ ► packaged in a toy store, but it's yours, right? And you get to do it the way you want. And the toolbar in
02:59:07 ◼ ► app kit is like that. It's like a little bit of design your own interface for the, for these apps and the
02:59:13 ◼ ► original first few versions of iOS or iPhone OS, as you said, it was called at the time kind of had that
02:59:19 ◼ ► thinking with tab bars at the bottom with that more button, right? Yes. Where it's like, oh, if you use
02:59:25 ◼ ► different features in music, you can put them in the toolbar and put the hide the ones you use less
02:59:31 ◼ ► seldomly in the more button. Yeah. And Apple's just moved away from that. And you know, it's still there in
02:59:36 ◼ ► app kit, but Apple's making apps for the Mac that aren't app kit that don't have toolbars and don't
02:59:41 ◼ ► have any toolbar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all moving away from that. And it's, well, I think you
02:59:46 ◼ ► can, you can have that feature that customized toolbar if you have a good menu bar system, right? You still
02:59:51 ◼ ► need to be able to access all of the features of the app. And so maybe that part of the issue is that
02:59:56 ◼ ► like, if you no longer have the actual item represented anywhere else, then you can't just tuck it away
03:00:02 ◼ ► somewhere, right? You need to be able to make sure that you have it. So it's, it's kind of lazy when
03:00:06 ◼ ► an app doesn't have that customized toolbar feature, right? I think like, yeah, the thinking was, I think
03:00:13 ◼ ► very clearly that the people who add Apple and next before them who kind of came up with the customized
03:00:18 ◼ ► toolbar thing, I think, but that the professional UI designers at the company that tries to hold itself
03:00:25 ◼ ► as the best company for UI design overall since the dawn of graphical user interface computing want to
03:00:34 ◼ ► spread the enthusiasm for UI design that they have to users to let users customize their design within
03:00:43 ◼ ► constraints in a sensible way. Because when you understand how the system works and you know what
03:00:48 ◼ ► you want from the tools that you're using, you might want to change them. And we're going to give you
03:00:55 ◼ ► the power to do it in a easily understood, easily accessible, consistent way across applications.
03:01:00 ◼ ► Go to the view menu, go down to customize. That's why they gave you the tinted icons, John.
03:01:05 ◼ ► Right. You can personalize your own experience. I think they're taking the wrong, the wrong lesson.
03:01:10 ◼ ► I think they're taking the wrong lessons where they're letting you, they're kind of taking the
03:01:13 ◼ ► wrong lesson from that Steve Jobs quote that's off-cited and is a very good one that people make the
03:01:19 ◼ ► mistake of thinking design is only how it looks, but it's not only what design is. Design is how it
03:01:25 ◼ ► works. And it's really putting into the hands of users only the power to tweak how it looks,
03:01:30 ◼ ► which is cool. And if people really want clear icons on their home screen, more power to them.
03:01:35 ◼ ► And, but it's only giving them the customization for how it looks and not how it works. And the only
03:01:42 ◼ ► place where I see that spirit in Apple in recent years, and I do love it and think it shows that
03:01:53 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. They really let you put like widgets and like buttons and they're like, Hey, you know
03:02:00 ◼ ► And the widgets have grown in the ability to be interactive in with new APIs. And so that's what
03:02:06 ◼ ► gives me hope. I don't think all hope is lost. I think that the flame is still burning there and
03:02:11 ◼ ► the lock screen and, and in iOS 26, it only gets better. I think it's, it both looks cool the way
03:02:18 ◼ ► that the time stretches. I think that just looks cool for the sake of being cool. I also think it's
03:02:23 ◼ ► more legible at a distance. It's one of the things I really miss from iOS 26. When I go back to my
03:02:28 ◼ ► daily phone on iOS 18, I'm like, Oh, the time looks stupid, all short and squat like that. But also it's
03:02:34 ◼ ► more functional where you were able to put the widget buttons in more places with more flexibility
03:02:38 ◼ ► and they can do more things. And that's the spirit of the toolbar and app kit, but it's only on the
03:02:44 ◼ ► lock screen, which to kind of take this full circle was the thing that was pointless in the original
03:02:49 ◼ ► iPhone. Yeah. It was like, it was like, actually don't interact with this, right? It's like, this is
03:02:54 ◼ ► the non-interactable. You can modify as a user, tweak the functionality of the lock screen more than
03:03:00 ◼ ► you can tweak the functionality of the actual system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have good news
03:03:06 ◼ ► for you, Louie. Yeah. We hit, we hit three hours. Yes. You did it. Oh, that's all I ever wanted,
03:03:12 ◼ ► John. I just love being among the group of what? The dozen people. I don't know. I'll make a list
03:03:17 ◼ ► of how many it is, but that's, that is, that is, this is the limits of, of, of time and space. We're
03:03:23 ◼ ► going to run out of recording space. Yeah. This was a lot of fun. Well, the reel-to-reel is running out.
03:03:28 ◼ ► Yes. The reel-to-reel is running out in my interface here. Louie Mantia, people can find,
03:03:33 ◼ ► oh, we didn't even mention Parakeet, right? Where you do consulting work designed by hire.
03:04:04 ◼ ► And in addition to your blog, you've got all sorts of fun stuff there, wallpapers, people,
03:04:10 ◼ ► I can't tell you how many times, because probably my, I switch wallpapers all the time, but you
03:04:20 ◼ ► And I cannot tell you, not just how many times I'm somewhere and somebody sees my lock screen
03:04:26 ◼ ► and I'm on, I have your shining carpet wallpaper. And they don't just say, hey, is that your
03:04:47 ◼ ► customization at the moment that I can do. So that's the customization I love the most.
03:04:59 ◼ ► It's somehow fun to talk about a thing that you and I have both been frustrated about for
03:05:06 ◼ ► Yeah. Well, it's fun. It's fun to talk about things that you're frustrated about, but I'm glad
03:05:18 ◼ ► Yeah. It's something lasting, right? It's something that is going to be a craft and an art after