00:00:00 ◼ ► I wanted you on the show, Jason, for a couple of weeks now. We've been trying to work it out, and now you are, and in the interim, I got very angry at you.
00:00:09 ◼ ► It's true. I'm sorry you're angry. We're seeing each other next week, so you can pick me down then.
00:00:17 ◼ ► I'm listening to the upgrade. One of my favorite upgrade episodes of the year is you and Mike Hurley doing the recap of the Apple Report Card.
00:00:32 ◼ ► And then you get to be talking about the Mac, and you make the very interesting observation that the way you've set up the report card all along is partly to fight against category proliferation.
00:00:50 ◼ ► And partly just to make it—let's make it difficult on the scorers, the graders, the voters.
00:01:00 ◼ ► I'm not giving you two Mac categories. You've got to set up like the gestalt of the Mac as a whole.
00:01:05 ◼ ► And I agree. I both find it difficult, and it makes me angry, but I agree that it's like getting some exercise in.
00:01:17 ◼ ► And then you get to yapping with Mike about how you would have graded it, which we'll get to in a moment.
00:01:24 ◼ ► And you said you would have given it an A because you don't get the kerfuffle over Tahoe.
00:01:34 ◼ ► This is my piece offering right up front, which is I think you're right about the Siri AI category.
00:01:41 ◼ ► I made a to-do to put that in my spreadsheet so that it happens for next year, because I think you're right.
00:01:54 ◼ ► But look, what I said about the Mac, it's funny because I don't think we disagree as much.
00:02:09 ◼ ► Honestly, it's one of these things too where it's obviously the trend over the last few months is people talking about how terrible they think liquid glass is and how bad they think it is on Tahoe.
00:02:21 ◼ ► But I do think that Tahoe has a lot of positives because, I mean, they added productivity features to Tahoe.
00:02:37 ◼ ► I don't disagree with any of the criticism of the icons, of the little icons in the menus, of the bad effect of liquid glass and how it was implemented in Tahoe.
00:02:56 ◼ ► I feel like if they had given the Mac more love, and I use that term loosely with liquid glass, I think it would have been worse, not better.
00:03:04 ◼ ► And so I'm kind of okay that it's a half-assed version of liquid glass because I think it could have been way worse.
00:03:16 ◼ ► And you can criticize it, and they deserve to be criticized because I think that all of this angst about this stuff is actually a symptom of a larger disease that Apple has had for a while in terms of their focus or lack of same on whatever you can call it.
00:03:49 ◼ ► It was like the, maybe it's the straw that broke the camel's back, if you want to say that.
00:03:59 ◼ ► But that all said, Tahoe added triggers for automation at a system level and access to the Apple's cloud models in automation, which I find super useful.
00:04:14 ◼ ► And they added a clipboard history for the very first time to any Apple operating system.
00:04:19 ◼ ► There's a lot of stuff that's there, and I can kind of look past how ugly it is because I do find it useful.
00:04:26 ◼ ► And at the same time, Mac hardware, everybody basically agrees, is basically like a perfect score.
00:04:35 ◼ ► So between the functionality of Tahoe and how great the Mac hardware is doing, look, when I said I was being a little rascally or the term that Stuart Wellington uses on the flophouses, I'm a little stinker.
00:04:49 ◼ ► A reasonable argument would be, look, I know that there are problems with the UI, but all the other things give it to a 4.
00:04:58 ◼ ► And because I've seen so many people who are like, I'm not even going to install it, like you and Marco and other people.
00:05:08 ◼ ► I get it that it's a regression in a bunch of areas, but there are also a bunch of good things in it.
00:05:37 ◼ ► But I do think, I mean, I am here to defend Tahoe at least a little bit because I think there's good stuff in it.
00:05:42 ◼ ► I just, and again, I can, look, when I click down a menu in the menu bar, do I roll my eyes a little at all those icons?
00:05:56 ◼ ► It reminded me a lot of what I wrote about the settings app, which is like, why are the icons colored the way they are?
00:07:01 ◼ ► Somebody said, I'd really like John and Jason to talk this through on the talk show, which you're welcome.
00:07:11 ◼ ► Do other people not have a little, like, imagine John Gruber audience on their shoulder?
00:07:27 ◼ ► I've gotten a little bit of, a little bit, not a lot, much more in my email friend and like Mastodon reader feedback of, keep Adam, this sucks.
00:07:56 ◼ ► I can simultaneously defend the usability or the functionality in Tahoe and say that there's, I think there's no denying that it's a mess design-wise.
00:08:05 ◼ ► Like, when that blog post about the corner radius resizing a window at the corner came out, I thought, I mean, I felt like I had been gaslit up to then.
00:08:19 ◼ ► And because it works sometimes, because you just throw your mouse towards the corner and you click and you resize, and then sometimes you don't, and you think, what is going on?
00:08:32 ◼ ► The funny part about that, too, and Adam Engst and I talked about it on the previous episode of the show, that Norbert Heger, who sort of wrote the definitive two blog posts about the corner resizing, wrote, took the time.
00:08:46 ◼ ► Now, speaking of LaunchBar, he's actually one of the developers of LaunchBar, or I don't know what his title is, but it might be the lead developer over at Objective Development.
00:08:55 ◼ ► But because he's a developer, of course, wrote a utility to move the mouse cursor automatically, presumably using accessibility APIs, one pixel at a time, to map out the hotspot of where you can resize this.
00:09:13 ◼ ► And Apple, obviously in response to the public catching on to this, hey, the corner resizing in Tahoe is clearly off in 26.2, addressed it in the 26.3 betas, all the way up to the release candidate, the RC, which is supposedly, hey, if we don't find anything deal-breaking, this is going to be the official release.
00:09:40 ◼ ► And they remapped it and made, instead of making it a stupid little square that's mostly off the window edge, they kind of made a round rect-shaped region around the corner, which is what is kind of necessary.
00:09:56 ◼ ► If you're going to make these comically large kindergartner-sized corner radiuses, you kind of need something like this.
00:10:06 ◼ ► It was in the release candidate, and then when the final version came out, Norbert ran his utility again, and they went back to the dumb little square that's mostly off the side.
00:10:17 ◼ ► I think it's obviously the case that there must be one or more major third-party apps that have stuff, UI elements, in the corners.
00:10:32 ◼ ► But they clearly, in the release candidate, discovered that there are some Mac apps out there that put things in the corner that now the little things in the apps in the corner were overlapping with the resize zones.
00:10:44 ◼ ► And they're like, oh, maybe we – and again, maybe, just maybe, rectangular – overall rectangular windows should have – if the corners aren't actually sharp, crisp, cornered rectangles, if they are round recs, and as Steve Jobs said 40 years ago, round recs are everywhere, they should be gently rounded.
00:11:23 ◼ ► So even though it didn't ship in 26.3 final, it was really – it is – and again, you speak as fluent Cupertino-ese as I do.
00:11:40 ◼ ► I will go all the way back here to the name Liquid Glass and the most obvious aspect of it across all the platforms and the emphasis Apple put on it at its introduction back at WDC, which is that it looks like liquid glass, right?
00:12:00 ◼ ► It does, and there's an increased emphasis on transparency and translucency and the liquid, liquidity.
00:12:13 ◼ ► And there are things that stretch that I can – and in some places on iOS where you can move them, I actually – it's like I'm finding more places where you can stretch things where it looks stupid that you can stretch them.
00:12:31 ◼ ► It's the translucency and transparency in the places where things you can't read because of the translucency and transparency.
00:12:40 ◼ ► Yes, that's an issue, but that is the least of the things that are my complaints on Tahoe because you can fix that with the accessibility settings.
00:12:49 ◼ ► And you've always been able to, as Apple has ying and yanged over what's translucent by how much for now, what, 24 years since Mac OS – the first version of Mac OS X?
00:13:04 ◼ ► And, you know, they've – the idea that certain aspects of the interface will be translucent or transparent just to look cool has – now it's like about a quarter of a century old.
00:13:17 ◼ ► In yings and yangs and ebbs and flows as years change and releases change, that's the least of the problems.
00:13:24 ◼ ► It is – and I'll go back all the way to classic Mac OS when there was the abandoned – what was it called?
00:13:45 ◼ ► And the appearance manager's appearance, no pun intended, more or less coincided with Steve Jobs' return to Apple and the next reunification and Avi Tevanian taking over software development.
00:14:01 ◼ ► And doing – for all – some of my disagreements over things like file name extensions and Mac OS X, but doing a very good job kind of – Mac OS 9 in the classic era was an outstanding release, Hall of Fame release of Macintosh system software.
00:14:16 ◼ ► And obviously, they were kind of save the company heads down – literally, save the company heads down, we've got to make this new operating system that combines the best of Mac OS with the best of the next step operating system and get this out.
00:14:34 ◼ ► That was the main thing, but they did a good job keeping classic and kind of sharpening classic, if you will.
00:14:40 ◼ ► But there was this thing called the appearance manager built into the operating system, which is – for somebody who wasn't around then, seems crazy for Apple to ship with the idea that you could have completely arbitrary skins like Winamp or all the various MP3 players from the heyday of third party.
00:15:08 ◼ ► And there was the one that looked like an architect paper that apparently only shipped as a developer beta in Japan.
00:15:25 ◼ ► And the only things that shipped – there still was the control panel for appearance manager with themes.
00:15:32 ◼ ► And the only themes were platinum with different accent colors based on the colors of the iMac, I guess, eventually.
00:15:40 ◼ ► But if you consider that with totally different themes, and if you could still do that today, which you can't, the problems that I'm most concerned about in Tahoe, the ones that have me not upgrading, would still be there even if there was a way to apply a Sequoia theme.
00:15:59 ◼ ► Or even, ideally, go back like 10 years to LCAP or one of those operating systems and apply the LCAP theme system-wide and just choose it.
00:16:16 ◼ ► The icons in the menu bar items really single-handedly is the single biggest reason I'm not upgrading.
00:16:22 ◼ ► It just makes me so furious, and I find it – every time I sit here at my podcast station, which runs Tahoe, and I'm looking at them, like, right now, it makes my blood boil because it makes them so goddamn hard to read.
00:16:37 ◼ ► Like, when you go into a restaurant and you look at – what do you look at to order from?
00:17:00 ◼ ► But I like the idea, too, because you'd have very similar foods that would have very different icons just because they didn't want to reuse the icon, and they're inconsistent with, why is the pizza icon this over here and this over there?
00:17:20 ◼ ► Back a very long time ago, I taught a class for a few years about web design at the Graduate School of Journalism.
00:17:28 ◼ ► It wasn't really about web design, but it was like basically make a blog, make a website because it was one way – that was an era where students who want to be journalists, you could go into a newsroom and say, I understand the web.
00:18:00 ◼ ► I think there are people for whom the icons could theoretically be useful, but the way it's implemented is so poor and inconsistent, which I keep coming back to this concept of information architecture.
00:18:15 ◼ ► It's why I spent so much time railing about the settings app is it's not organized in any logical way.
00:18:25 ◼ ► The icons in the menu bar are just monochrome, but like the icons in settings are color, but the colors don't mean anything.
00:18:34 ◼ ► It's like – imagine if those icons in the menu bar in Tahoe had colors of various shades and there was only one menu.
00:18:52 ◼ ► I'm sure you know this, talking to people at Apple, anytime people say, why doesn't Apple know that this is bad?
00:19:08 ◼ ► And to me, it all comes back to the fact that whoever is making decisions has decided that – and in this case, maybe it's Alan Dye and the people who loved Alan Dye who didn't want him to leave.
00:19:23 ◼ ► But whoever it is in that system, there are people who are like, but what about the usability?
00:19:27 ◼ ► And it feels very clear if you look at the last 10 years of Apple software that those people aren't being listened to.
00:19:34 ◼ ► And look, it's a terrible task to be defending usability over something that's new because you're kind of like saying, I want to build this amazing building.
00:19:47 ◼ ► And I do get the sense that a lot of the people at Apple are just being told, make this thing work, even though it doesn't work.
00:19:52 ◼ ► But that, to me, it just – I don't have any inside knowledge of this, but it sure feels like a fundamental cultural problem.
00:20:08 ◼ ► And you end up with these things that, like, there's no – somebody – information architecture.
00:20:15 ◼ ► You look at the icons and you're like, somebody could do a project where they say, okay, we're going to put icons in the menu bar.
00:20:28 ◼ ► Let's build a book of what you use in certain ways and how you figure out which SF symbol to use if you're just using SF symbols.
00:20:43 ◼ ► Yeah, I think based on some discussions with people inside and outside Apple and thinking about it, I think one of the ways that this went off drifted away very slowly and where people like me and you are in a perfect position to sort of take a step back and say, yeah, because we were both using the platform and commenting on it in detail throughout this entire period.
00:21:12 ◼ ► You really do have to go back to Steve Jobs and you really do have to go back to his irreplaceable role.
00:21:24 ◼ ► I got to put this in the show notes, but the joke cartoon from 20 years ago about Silicon Valley org charts and the one for Apple is just a circle with one dot in the middle, which is Steve Jobs.
00:22:18 ◼ ► And it's like I said this with Adam angst in the previous episode that the principles of user interface design are a lot like the principles of grammar in writing.
00:22:43 ◼ ► And because of that, I was absolutely terrible trying to learn Spanish as a second language.
00:23:25 ◼ ► And as I pointed out when I was comparing and contrasting Alan Dye's introduction of Liquid Glass at WWDC with Steve Jobs' introduction of Aqua back in like 2001 at a Mac World, one of the Mac Worlds that was at the time held all around the world.
00:23:40 ◼ ► And Steve Jobs was using words like key window and pointing out things like the key window, you could see that it has this prominence apart from the background windows.
00:23:50 ◼ ► And Alan Dye's word salad introducing Liquid Glass didn't use any of those human-computer interaction terms.
00:23:57 ◼ ► And the main thing people remember from that introduction was Steve Jobs saying, look at this, we wanted to make the buttons look lickable.
00:24:07 ◼ ► But also he knew these human-computer interaction principles like making the front window, the one that has input focus, visually prominent so that you can tell at a glance without having to think or look or just hunt for the red, yellow, green buttons.
00:24:22 ◼ ► Or God, like the way that in previous versions of iPadOS before this year when you had split screen, you know, you really – it was really like where's Waldo trying to figure out which of the panels had input focus.
00:24:41 ◼ ► It's grammatically – as wrong as that grammar is was as wrong as that human interface design.
00:24:48 ◼ ► Yet I think it was sort of like that the Alan Dye graphic designer school of interface design is, well, this looks better because fading things out if they don't have focus doesn't look cool.
00:25:06 ◼ ► I do wonder because – and I will say Aqua, I mean, Aqua did have some legibility issues.
00:25:13 ◼ ► But I totally get what you're saying because, look, one of the consequences of Tim taking over from Steve is that Tim didn't have that sense, right?
00:25:25 ◼ ► And it's not a big leap to suggest the danger there is if you trust somebody, you shouldn't.
00:25:32 ◼ ► And I think, like, that story that they were disappointed that Alan Dye got poached by Meta, which a lot of us are like, what?
00:25:48 ◼ ► And this is one of those things where Tim Cook's not going to look at the designs that come out of Alan Dye's group and say, I'm worried about your lack of focus on usability.
00:26:04 ◼ ► And so, it's going to be – so, that's the danger of investing all of your hope on somebody.
00:26:26 ◼ ► But, certainly, culturally, it feels like the stuff that came out – like, it's hard not to look at liquid glass and sometimes think, was this designed by designers who assumed that the technical proficiency of the coders at Apple would be so great that any legibility problems could be solved programmatically?
00:26:49 ◼ ► If it was like, did they solve the whole math problem or did they solve the best case and then say, well, our geniuses will figure out the rest of it?
00:27:07 ◼ ► Maybe they thought, look, all that matters is that it looks cool and usability is for suckers.
00:27:12 ◼ ► I think what happened is that during the jobs era, it could all flow through jobs and actually it was clearly more efficient that way.
00:27:22 ◼ ► But what happened was the user interface designer stopped reporting up through software engineering, which is where they used to.
00:27:32 ◼ ► That group used to report up through software engineering and it was treated as effectively another engineering discipline.
00:27:59 ◼ ► And then even when Steve died, it was fine for a while because they could drift on the work that was already there.
00:28:09 ◼ ► And I think a lot of those – going back through Stephen Hackett's excellent collection of Mac OS X screenshots at 512 pixels, you can see it up through right about the time Alan Dye got hired.
00:28:21 ◼ ► And it's not dependent on him personally, but I think that part of Alan Dye getting hired also coincided with Johnny Ive.
00:28:32 ◼ ► But that's where Johnny Ive's attention was on shipping the watch, the Apple watch, and the architecture of Apple Park, which yada, yada, yada, five years later, he's out of Apple.
00:28:45 ◼ ► I would also say – I mean, my CliffsNotes version of this is with Steve gone, Apple needed to invest visibility in people that would allow the markets and everybody else to trust that Apple still had talented people there, even with Steve gone.
00:29:01 ◼ ► And so they gave Johnny a lot of responsibility and titles and things to reassure everybody that Apple was going to be okay.
00:29:08 ◼ ► And I think in some ways it was the right decision at the time, but it inscribed a bunch of power into Johnny that maybe he didn't deserve in that moment, but he needed to have it because they needed to elevate him.
00:29:22 ◼ ► And to your point about, like, the watch and Apple Park and all of that, personal opinion, I think Johnny Ive was burned out on making gadgets and just wasn't that interested in it.
00:29:31 ◼ ► And so it falls to his people to do that work while he's off looking at handrails for the Steve Jobs Theater, which is a beautiful – I mean, it's a beautiful piece of work.
00:29:41 ◼ ► And I think what should have been done when Steve left was instead of putting it under Johnny Ive as the whole discipline, just the graphic design and the style of the icons and the themes, like gizmo and platinum and whatever.
00:29:59 ◼ ► The theme of the UI could have remained under Johnny's team, but that the overall structure, the blueprint, the wireframe of the UI and the principles of things like, hey, should every menu item have a little icon next to it or not, or is that a bad idea?
00:30:16 ◼ ► Regardless of what the menus look like and how transparent they are or what the system font is or anything like that, just as a general principle, should have gone back to where it was before 2000 or the return of Steve Jobs and become a discipline – an engineering discipline under software engineering.
00:30:33 ◼ ► With – and this is an important point – with the ability for them to have an equal weight in the arguments about what was right and wrong.
00:30:42 ◼ ► Because you can have a whole group that is in that software group who cares about that stuff, but if they lose every argument to the designers, it doesn't matter.
00:31:09 ◼ ► I reported this out and heard this firsthand was that it's not that Alan Dye is or was unlikable.
00:31:18 ◼ ► You know, and the other thing, too, is people have written to me like, well, then how did cool things like the Dynamic Island ship under Alan Dye?
00:31:28 ◼ ► And it's a very cool feature that I've sung the praises of right from the first time I saw it.
00:31:32 ◼ ► And I was lucky enough to run into Alan Dye and the team that designed it literally in the hands-on area after that iPhone event.
00:31:38 ◼ ► So, like, ten minutes after we got out of the Steve Jobs Theater, I'm talking to Alan Dye about the Dynamic Island and congratulating him and his team because I was already in love with it.
00:31:52 ◼ ► Nobody, including me, perhaps his most public critic, nobody is saying that Apple's user interface design was a zero on a scale of zero to 100 under him.
00:32:03 ◼ ► And there are super talented people still in the ranks of Apple's human interface designers.
00:32:10 ◼ ► And hopefully, Stephen LeMay, the new head of user interface design, will exemplify that and sort of bring them back to the forefront.
00:32:24 ◼ ► And the Dynamic Island has a very nice whiz-bang, looks-cool, we-could-feature-this-in-ads-and-keynotes aspect to it that pleases Alan Dye.
00:32:35 ◼ ► And the other thing I heard from so many people within Apple was that as likable and as personable as Alan Dye could be, he was clearly, first and foremost, a political operator.
00:32:52 ◼ ► And there's always been politics at Apple from when you and me were kids all the way through now.
00:33:02 ◼ ► Every company has politics, and once you get to the size of a publicly-held corporation, of course there's politics.
00:33:09 ◼ ► But I'm just saying that for a publicly-held corporation, Apple and the rank-and-file levels of designers and engineers, it's kind of frowned upon to be a political player.
00:33:20 ◼ ► And by political player, what I mean is I think that Alan Dye is very adept at figuring out how to keep the people above him happy, how to keep Tim Cook happy, how to keep Craig Federighi happy, how to keep Jaws happy, how to keep Eddie Q happy.
00:33:40 ◼ ► Although I do have a theory there, which is that one of the reasons you look around for another job is that there was some promotion that he thought he was going to get that he didn't get.
00:33:47 ◼ ► Or who you're going to – with all the rumors about him retiring and all of that or becoming the chairman and all that, like I just – my spider sense went off.
00:33:55 ◼ ► Just one of the things that happens when you're at a fairly high level is you start to have an expectation of who you're going to report to, who's going to report to you.
00:34:03 ◼ ► And it's a huge part if you're a political operator especially, but it's a huge part of like what it represents.
00:34:11 ◼ ► If you've been reporting to Steve Jobs for a while and then Steve Jobs leaves and Tim Cook becomes the CEO, is it time to leave?
00:34:20 ◼ ► And that was my spider sense kind of feeling about Alan Dye was that maybe he was looking for another opportunity, but I do wonder if not that they wanted him out, but that he felt he deserved more than maybe they were willing to give him.
00:34:34 ◼ ► And there are reports, I think, oftentimes, and a lot of these guys, they truly do – it's why your site's named what it is.
00:34:43 ◼ ► This is why Apple senior leadership is so steady and that people get in there and spend the rest of their careers there.
00:34:50 ◼ ► And a guy like Phil Schiller, even after he retires as senior – or steps aside from the position of senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, whatever his full title was, is still running the App Store and running Apple's events.
00:35:16 ◼ ► And there have been reports, especially it comes up with AI and AI researchers and the seemingly absurd sums of money that other companies are throwing at top researchers.
00:35:27 ◼ ► There are reports, I think, again, oftentimes this all goes back to our friend Mark Gurman, that Meta had poached people from Apple and offered them $100 million or other companies $100 million bonuses to come and join the company.
00:35:55 ◼ ► And I kind of feel like maybe part of it is that Alan Dye got an offer like that to go join Meta because Mark Zuckerberg thinks that.
00:36:03 ◼ ► And then I'm hopeful – I don't even want to believe that you're right because I think to extrapolate on your theory that he kind of smelled which way the winds were blowing within Apple would mean, if the rumors are right and Ternus is the next CEO of the company, that maybe he knows that Ternus is not a fan of his work in UI design.
00:36:27 ◼ ► Or it could be something like, I want to be chief design officer like Johnny, and I want to control all of that stuff.
00:36:34 ◼ ► And I've seen that time and again where there are people who are valued a lot by the people they report to.
00:36:41 ◼ ► But you're right. It could also just be as simple as he's tired of playing those games at Apple and there's a big paycheck dangling somewhere else for more glory.
00:36:50 ◼ ► It's just sometimes it's surprising, I think, what motivates the people flip side of that is I have heard that, you know, Apple senior management initially was surprised that he left surprised that anybody in that position would leave to go to of all companies meta.
00:37:09 ◼ ► And then after in the initial days or that first week where it was all a big surprise, they were also surprised to find out that other than the inner circle around him, who either all left with him for meta or also just left Apple, like Alan Dye's whole inner circle, like I would say up to about 10 people probably left with him or left Apple.
00:37:42 ◼ ► And you can take it as a sign of dysfunction that they didn't know or that those people who are happy to see Alan Dye go couldn't get themselves heard and that the senior leadership had that wrong of a sense of the rest of the software designers at Apple.
00:37:57 ◼ ► And I do think it is, to some degree, a sign of dysfunction, but that took them by surprise, too.
00:38:02 ◼ ► But I think it hit home and they're like, oh, and to their credit over the years, all the way back to Steve Jobs, they they it's not that they never make mistakes.
00:38:13 ◼ ► It's that Apple at its best recognizes when they've made a mistake and they correct it.
00:38:18 ◼ ► And I think that we hopefully, knock on wood, are going to see that with software interface design.
00:38:27 ◼ ► I just, you know, yeah, you want a healthy environment where all of that stuff gets considered properly and it doesn't feel like that that's been the environment there for a while.
00:38:36 ◼ ► So, yeah, also maybe something about what a great political operator he is, but he's keeping everybody happy above them.
00:38:48 ◼ ► That he was so successful as a political operator that he kept them happy and kept them from recognizing how unhappy the people under him were.
00:39:03 ◼ ► Notion brings all your notes, docs, and projects into one connected space that just works.
00:39:14 ◼ ► With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work.
00:39:45 ◼ ► So things that used to take hours of busy work, you can set up custom agents that just handle themselves.
00:39:55 ◼ ► One of them is examples are like a Q&A agent that acts like a help desk answering common questions instantly so that you're not repeating yourself all day or that the same questions don't keep popping up on your team's Slack.
00:40:11 ◼ ► And if the answer to the question is in your team's Notion shared database, it'll just find the answer and ask it.
00:40:19 ◼ ► Generating like status updates, like a weekly status update that different teams might need to compile.
00:40:25 ◼ ► You can just have the agent do it automatically and it'll compile the update and send the status report automatically on the schedule you set so that the whole team stays up to date without endless follow-ups.
00:40:45 ◼ ► I just read right before we started recording a fantastic post in the Mac Stories weekly newsletter where our friend Federico Vettici used Notion custom agents to build what he calls, I think I might be putting words into his mouth, but effectively the bookmark manager, the bookmark app of his dreams.
00:41:03 ◼ ► It's a really good post and it really does get right to the heart of it where he just sends bookmarks into Notion and then the custom agent does all the work of categorizing them and like, oh, this is something about this.
00:41:15 ◼ ► And does all the busy work of kind of organizing bookmarks in a slush pile automatically.
00:41:22 ◼ ► So what you do, you just get identify patterns of busy work that your team does every week and then you create a custom agent.
00:41:43 ◼ ► Notion is used by over 50% of Fortune 500 companies and some of the fastest growing companies in the world like OpenAI, Ramp, and Vercel.
00:41:51 ◼ ► They all use Notion and Notion AI to make their internal processes faster and help their teams stay ahead.
00:42:14 ◼ ► So going back to the report card, we don't have to rehash everything because you and Mike do it on that Upgrade annual show.
00:42:33 ◼ ► My numbers are not in there and I don't even think of numbers until Mike makes me talk about it on Upgrade.
00:42:49 ◼ ► But for the rest of the categories, I could hear you thinking it through on the fly, which is amazing.
00:42:55 ◼ ► Even if you did vote, there are, I think there were 56 voters this year, panelists this year.
00:43:09 ◼ ► I like the clarity of that because in the early days, especially people would see things that they didn't agree with.
00:43:39 ◼ ► Because the worst thing in the world is looking, trying to do like the first couple of years,
00:43:56 ◼ ► And then I end up throwing half of them away, moving a bunch of them around, pulling ones
00:44:07 ◼ ► And then, you know, yes, because it's AI, I also make sure that everything is verbatim,
00:44:13 ◼ ► To the credit of the AI, when I said, do not invent anything, only direct quotes, following
00:44:20 ◼ ► But still, I had moments where everybody's praising Apple's hardware and three separate
00:44:26 ◼ ► And I made sure to get all those in there and line them all up about how whoever's in charge
00:44:37 ◼ ► Christina Warren always writes the most of anybody because she used to be a tech blogger
00:45:17 ◼ ► So I got to the end after seeing like Christina's writing thousands of words again and I get to
00:45:36 ◼ ► I actually, I just realized I need to rename my own subcategory on my own published report
00:45:51 ◼ ► It's the grab bag that is based on Apple always says they want to leave the world a better
00:45:57 ◼ ► And when I started doing this in 2014 or whatever, the idea was how they doing based on everybody's
00:46:15 ◼ ► But they also do talk about these other aspects of what they believe in and how they want to
00:46:22 ◼ ► And I thought it was only fair to have a category where people could say, how do they live up to
00:46:27 ◼ ► Now, I admit I didn't really expect it going quite where it's gone the last few years, but
00:46:40 ◼ ► As anybody who reads the site knows, I'm not afraid to wade into the Trump 2.0 administration
00:46:57 ◼ ► So, you know, which is compare and contrast with Tim Cook personally paying a million dollars
00:47:02 ◼ ► to get a good seat at the inauguration or whatever the hell that racket was, as opposed to Apple
00:47:09 ◼ ► paying a million dollars, donating, I'm sorry, donating a million dollars to the inauguration
00:47:16 ◼ ► But once you're giving trophies out with the Apple logo on, you are clearly bringing the company
00:47:33 ◼ ► And I think it's probably true that what you say on the show with Mike, that the vibe in
00:47:41 ◼ ► And yeah, yeah, because that's the goal of the whole thing is I don't think anybody who's
00:47:45 ◼ ► following what people are writing and saying about Apple should be surprised by anything
00:48:06 ◼ ► Although I know a friend of the show, Kieran Healy, the sociology professor, is doing, he
00:48:16 ◼ ► And I know he was interested in looking into that actually directly about does the sentiment
00:48:36 ◼ ► I've read, I don't have the titles off the top of my head, but I've read at least two of
00:49:07 ◼ ► To just sort of think, oh, yeah, it would be interesting to take the people who gave Apple
00:49:13 ◼ ► particularly low scores on Impact on the World and the people who didn't amongst the panelists
00:49:19 ◼ ► and see, oh, amongst the people who gave them a grade of this or above, I don't know where
00:49:27 ◼ ► Did they grade everything else a bit higher than the people who gave them a two or a one?
00:49:38 ◼ ► And I would bet money that, yes, that the people who gave Apple a low score, that this one category
00:50:06 ◼ ► And I know what it's like to have a teacher who does not like me, and you don't get any
00:50:18 ◼ ► And they don't, not that they took points off unfairly, or unjustifiably, it's a better
00:50:29 ◼ ► They could find justifications for why this was wrong, or I got a full point off as opposed
00:50:44 ◼ ► Yeah, when there's an art to it, you're like, why would I give the benefit of the doubt?
00:50:51 ◼ ► But I think Kieran would probably agree, having looked at his report a little bit, that yes,
00:51:20 ◼ ► And even, I would say, I think some of the panel's comments were interesting in that there
00:51:29 ◼ ► There's nuance about the motivation, like, to try and prevent tariffs from killing your sales
00:51:40 ◼ ► I had several people, like John Syracuse, I think, just went to the fundamental, what's
00:51:47 ◼ ► And then what I keep thinking is, I keep coming back to the reason that category exists, which
00:52:04 ◼ ► This idea that we want to make the world a better place, and we want to leave things better,
00:52:09 ◼ ► and that the environmental stuff matters, and that all of this stuff is like, we do believe
00:52:15 ◼ ► And that's, I think, a nuance of what happened in this last year, which is, and this is how
00:52:22 ◼ ► I feel, certainly, is we, leaving aside the mechanics of the rest of it, really hard for
00:52:28 ◼ ► Tim Cook to post a thing about Martin Luther King, or a tragedy that happened somewhere in
00:52:33 ◼ ► the world, where you could be like, ah, see, Apple, it's not just about selling computers,
00:52:46 ◼ ► Your impact on the world is obviously to make as much money as possible, sell as many phones
00:52:55 ◼ ► And as a side note, I noticed, because Apple did, as they, I think, have done for at least
00:53:01 ◼ ► over a decade, probably much longer than a decade, on Martin Luther King Jr. Day this year, dedicate
00:53:14 ◼ ► And I think that if Tim Cook and Apple had played year one of the second Trump administration,
00:53:21 ◼ ► administration differently, that there would have been more people saying, hey, and look,
00:53:29 ◼ ► I didn't see anybody give Apple any credit for the fact that they're still doing that, even
00:53:34 ◼ ► And I'll just throw meta under the bus who have explicitly changed their political stance
00:53:41 ◼ ► explicitly once Trump was reelected to say, oh, yeah, I think Zuckerberg said something like,
00:54:00 ◼ ► He said something like, you guys know now I got to invite the women's team, too, because I'd get impeached if I didn't.
00:54:05 ◼ ► Which it's like, hey, I'm really happy and I got really into the Winter Olympics this year and I watched the men beat Canada in the gold medal game and I was very excited.
00:54:14 ◼ ► But that's the first time the men have won the gold medal since 1980 and the women win the gold medal every frigging year and are one of the biggest juggernauts in international sports.
00:54:26 ◼ ► Like the U.S. women's ice hockey team is so much better than the U.S. men's ice hockey team as an institution.
00:54:34 ◼ ► It's not even funny, let alone even if they'd only won on the same pace as the men, like once every 46 years.
00:54:44 ◼ ► And that's exactly where Zuckerberg explicitly went at meta with this company needs more masculine energy.
00:54:53 ◼ ► And they're still doing things like dedicating the homepage to Martin Luther King on Martin Luther King Day.
00:54:58 ◼ ► And they haven't changed any of their H.R. policies surrounding lowercase diversity, equity and inclusion within the company.
00:55:10 ◼ ► They call it like I think Deirdre O'Brien's title is director of people or something like that instead of H.R.
00:55:17 ◼ ► And they've always had weird terms that aren't like D.E.I. explicitly in capital letters, but that they still had they didn't change anything.
00:55:28 ◼ ► I mean, look, I think it's very clear that they've decided that if they keep quiet about it,
00:55:33 ◼ ► maybe it won't become a thing where Trump will freak out and they'll have to change it in some way because he's demanded that they do it.
00:55:42 ◼ ► I think the Detroit engineering and manufacturing thing that they've got, like in a different era,
00:55:53 ◼ ► But instead, they cast it in this era as American manufacturing and the power of the automotive and legacy in Detroit and all of that.
00:56:03 ◼ ► But like in the end, it's all coded and they've made the decision to go along and not stand up.
00:56:19 ◼ ► But I think it's I think it does eliminate the possibility that you can say, oh, we're different.
00:56:33 ◼ ► I think they've just decided that in terms of being executives at a public corporation, they this is what they have to do.
00:56:40 ◼ ► And my personal theory is that after Trump spent all that time complaining that Tim Apple wasn't on the plane with him to Saudi Arabia.
00:56:55 ◼ ► And obviously, somebody at Apple, including Tim Cook, were like, OK, we're just going to say yes to anything he asks now.
00:57:05 ◼ ► No, I think Cook didn't want to go because of MBS and the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and all of that.
00:57:12 ◼ ► I thought that was like a bridge too far and that you don't really need the CEO of Apple to take a tour around Saudi Arabia.
00:57:28 ◼ ► And again, I'm not saying I agree, but I'm saying I suspect that's what happened is that they took a little step out of line and were beaten on it until they got back in line.
00:57:41 ◼ ► And next thing you know, he's showing up at the premiere of Melania's propaganda documentary, even though it's not on Apple TV.
00:57:53 ◼ ► Boy, if ever there was a time for you to say, ooh, the clams, they didn't agree with me.
00:58:56 ◼ ► The random slowdowns, freezes that you can't reproduce, but that your users are reporting.
00:59:12 ◼ ► Errors, traces, replays, logs actually connected so that you can see what led to the issue without digging through five different dashboards to get there.
00:59:26 ◼ ► It takes that full context, explains why the issue happened, points to the code responsible, even drafts a fix, and flags if your PR is about to introduce a new problem.
00:59:38 ◼ ► Something breaks, then Sentry shows you the full context, and then SEER helps you fix it and catch new issues before they ship.
00:59:45 ◼ ► Sentry is used by millions of developers behind some of the biggest apps in the world like Claude, Disney+, and Duolingo.
00:59:52 ◼ ► Sentry supports over 100 plus languages and frameworks across front-end, back-end, and mobile.
01:00:15 ◼ ► And by going to that link, they have a free developer plan, and listeners of the show going to Sentry.io slash talk show can use that code talk show to get 80 bucks in Sentry credits.
01:00:34 ◼ ► All right, you mentioned earlier some of the functional reasons to like Tahoe, and part of it, though, and part of what I keep saying, why I'm happy staying on Sequoia for the year and just waiting it out, is that while I like all of those, and maybe the triggers for automation, maybe that's where I'm missing out.
01:00:55 ◼ ► But like the improved Spotlight and the clipboard history, part of the reason that it's like, yeah, if I only relied on the system for that, ooh, that would give me like the itch.
01:01:28 ◼ ► The Quicksilver people always were really mad because I always liked LaunchBar better than Quicksilver.
01:01:37 ◼ ► But when I, like when Quicksilver sort of withered on the vine and I looked around for a replacement and I switched to LaunchBar, my thought was, ah, this is good enough replacement.
01:02:06 ◼ ► I see other launchers doing things that I'm not sure LaunchBar really is built to do or wants to do.
01:02:12 ◼ ► But my purpose in dropping it originally was just to live with, when I was preparing my review of Tahoe over the summer, just to see if I could live with Spotlight.
01:02:25 ◼ ► And the funny story about a lot of Mac OS X features is we had a lot of great third-party utilities in the early days of Mac OS X to extend the system because it was a brand new operating system.
01:02:35 ◼ ► They were lucky to get Spotlight or Search to work at all, let alone work in the way that you wanted.
01:02:42 ◼ ► What happened is when all of us started using third-party apps is all that stuff in the background got better and we just never saw it because we never used it because we had switched.
01:02:59 ◼ ► And I figured, okay, if I'm going to review this operating system, what I don't want is a blind spot, which is these apps I use to cover up the holes in the operating system.
01:03:16 ◼ ► And they've got a clipboard manager, which when I went through the process of thinking what's left that Apple has not put into the core OS that really should be there,
01:03:36 ◼ ► It's like, wait, I can have multiple things and they don't disappear when the marching ants go away.
01:03:41 ◼ ► I can still get back to them having undo as a thing that you could do for the clipboard.
01:03:49 ◼ ► And what I found is, other than the fact that I had to do a macro in Keyboard Maestro to bind to a single keystroke,
01:03:56 ◼ ► keystroke for clipboard history, because they want you to hit command space and then command four, which, why can't I just hit, assign a keystroke to that?
01:04:20 ◼ ► The thing I miss the most from LaunchBar is you used to be able to call up an app and then drag a file onto it.
01:04:27 ◼ ► And I hate that because that was really good sometimes when you had a file that wouldn't double click open in that app.
01:04:39 ◼ ► And again, I know I could go back, but I've been having some issues with LaunchBar where it was bogging down.
01:04:45 ◼ ► Sometimes it wouldn't be responsive or it would get caught in a loop indexing my hard drive.
01:04:50 ◼ ► And I would report those to objective development, but there never seemed to be a solution.
01:05:05 ◼ ► Hazel is a great app that does a lot of automations that act on when things change on your Mac.
01:05:10 ◼ ► But isn't it nice that the system now, it's sort of like folder actions back in the day, but they've done a modern version of it.
01:05:16 ◼ ► You can say if this file changes, if an item gets added to a folder, an item gets edited in a folder, all of these different things,
01:05:28 ◼ ► you can kick into an automation automatically and have it be just built into the system.
01:05:40 ◼ ► Third-party apps are great, but I am a firm believer that there's some functionality that should probably be in the system
01:05:46 ◼ ► and that Apple should not just say, we never need to build a clipboard manager because those in the know will buy one.
01:05:54 ◼ ► If you have a friend who just has a stock Mac running Tahoe and they're like, oh no, I copied something over this super important text that I had in the clipboard and I can never get it back,
01:06:12 ◼ ► I would go back to it if I felt like I really needed it, but I am living that part of it, which is Spotlight has gotten a lot better since the last time I took it seriously,
01:06:25 ◼ ► I think they have been incrementally improving it, but this is a big update and I don't agree with everything.
01:06:30 ◼ ► They took some shots with like actions and stuff that I think were all there for app intents that didn't ship.
01:06:41 ◼ ► You can see the signs of the things they thought would be there that aren't there, but like, it's pretty good.
01:06:53 ◼ ► And on the Mac, I literally just drag the image into BBEdit and it runs, it's a classic Apple script thing.
01:07:00 ◼ ► So you can basically attach a script to an action in an app if it's a super Mac app like BBEdit.
01:07:12 ◼ ► It resizes my image to the right specs for six colors, uploads it, gets the, using an API in WordPress, gets the URL back.
01:07:40 ◼ ► And it's, you know, I edit it sometimes, but it's so good that I've got a computer to basically like, write your descriptive text here.
01:07:47 ◼ ► Because I want to have descriptive text, but I don't, I really don't want to write it myself all the time.
01:08:02 ◼ ► On the iPad, because file names there, if I've taken a screenshot, it's just a weird series of numbers from photos.
01:08:09 ◼ ► It actually asks private cloud compute, give this a name, give this a file name that's human readable, that explains something about what it is.
01:08:26 ◼ ► But like, the fact that they took their cloud model, which is not available to third party developers.
01:08:35 ◼ ► I mean, Steve Tratton-Smith, I think, found that after a while, they will say you can't use it anymore today.
01:08:52 ◼ ► But like, that's a really cool feature that right now it feels like only people using shortcuts get it.
01:09:01 ◼ ► Then Dan Morin and I were talking today about how he, occasionally he gets, and I get too,
01:09:08 ◼ ► And I said to Dan, well, the good news is you can just put in an error handler and shortcuts.
01:09:30 ◼ ► Because as a Mac user, I mean, we went through that period where the only new features that got added to the Mac were features that were brought over from iOS, usually a year late.
01:09:40 ◼ ► And that's gotten more in sync now that they've got the code bases in sync and they can do Catalyst-ish stuff or Swift UI stuff.
01:09:53 ◼ ► Then somebody at Apple was like, could we do some things for Mac users to make things better?
01:10:19 ◼ ► And again, yeah, there are third-party apps that do it and that can hit the edge cases and do a better job.
01:11:00 ◼ ► I just, that's a category of apps where every once in a while I'm like, well, let's see what this other command space launcher has going on right now.
01:11:07 ◼ ► But one thing LaunchBar does is for apps that have files like BBEdit, and any app where you go to File, and there's an Open Recent menu, and it lists the recently opened files.
01:11:19 ◼ ► In LaunchBar, if you type BBEdit to get BBEdit, there will be a right arrow thing in the list, and you can right arrow into BBEdit, and it shows you the recent files.
01:11:35 ◼ ► And I can go right arrow, and it lists all of my recent Omni Outliner files, just like the file Open Recent.
01:11:52 ◼ ► I mean, and I could, in theory, get used to the, you know, I'm not that, my habit for right arrow isn't that hard.
01:11:59 ◼ ► But it's really a great feature, and it's, I don't think, I never found quite a way to do that in Alfred or Raycast quite the same way.
01:12:08 ◼ ► And I know that people within Apple are longtime users of LaunchBar and Alfred and probably Raycast at this point.
01:12:17 ◼ ► The thing about clipboard history, I really do agree that it should have been a feature 20 years ago.
01:12:32 ◼ ► given the memory of computers, that you only store one thing at a time, like it's 1984.
01:12:39 ◼ ► Like, it's very obvious why the 1984 Mac only kept one thing on the clipboard at a time and didn't have a history.
01:13:19 ◼ ► if you switch notes in Apple Notes, you lose the undo stack for that note when you switch notes.
01:13:31 ◼ ► and you're in note A, and you cut something, and you go elsewhere, you copy something else,
01:13:37 ◼ ► you can go back to notes, and if you're still there, you could hit undo, and what you cut will come back.
01:14:12 ◼ ► And then there are so many utilities that offer a clipboard history as a secondary feature,
01:14:19 ◼ ► including, I think, all of the major launchers, like LaunchBar, I know, has a clipboard history.
01:14:49 ◼ ► So I can copy something on my Mac in my office and then come down here to this podcast station
01:14:54 ◼ ► and type a keyboard shortcut, and it shows me all – my entire history of clipboard items
01:15:48 ◼ ► Well, the thing you mentioned, this is – even to this day, people talk about Sherlocking, right?
01:15:52 ◼ ► And the stuff that I was just praising, you could say that a lot of that is Sherlocking.
01:15:58 ◼ ► But I never believed that because I do believe that the OS vendor has a duty of care to provide
01:16:04 ◼ ► base features without requiring – the last thing you want to do is be told that when you
01:16:09 ◼ ► buy a Mac, the first thing you need to do is buy $150 worth of shareware in order to get
01:16:17 ◼ ► And I think Clipboard Manager in the box – there's not a box anymore, but, you know, is great.
01:16:21 ◼ ► But what you described there about Clipboard Managers and Pacebot and all the rest of them,
01:16:36 ◼ ► Apple wants to get that sweet spot where, again, it's like your cousin, oh no, I copied
01:16:53 ◼ ► If you've got more use, that's what the third-party apps are going to be able to give you.
01:17:16 ◼ ► the Apple ecosystem, and they all know, like, Apple could squash their main idea if they're
01:17:20 ◼ ► fitting – if it's an obvious main idea that Apple just hasn't gotten to, they could squash
01:17:27 ◼ ► But, like, if you design your app for people who really care about it, and what they really
01:17:33 ◼ ► Because you've got the whole edge where Apple is never going to be so nerdy that they're
01:17:38 ◼ ► going to offer a thousand things and have them sync and have them do, like, Pastebot will
01:17:42 ◼ ► do, like, rewrites where it'll do a modification or a conversion or, like, a markdown conversion.
01:18:03 ◼ ► But there's four reasons on the server side, my CMS with, you know, movable type, which you
01:18:17 ◼ ► So it's, in modern parlance, you could think of it as 20 years ahead of its time in its
01:18:33 ◼ ► And there are times, like, when I copy from MarsEdit, it gets the URL that movable type
01:18:40 ◼ ► But I've used Apache rewrite trickery to make sure that what gets published to the world,
01:18:47 ◼ ► And if you try to use one, it'll automatically redirect you to the same article without the
01:18:54 ◼ ► But I have a keyboard maestro macro that every time I copy anything, the macro runs and looks
01:19:00 ◼ ► to see if it's a Daring Fireball URL that ends in .php and just clips the .php from it.
01:19:15 ◼ ► So if you can say, and this is my stance, I think you and I share this, my stance on Sherlocking
01:19:19 ◼ ► is even if you've invented a new idea or something that hasn't, it's like, wow, I can't think
01:19:28 ◼ ► If the answer to the question, hey, should Apple build that into the system for everybody or
01:19:35 ◼ ► If the answer is yes, they probably will eventually, even if it takes until 2026 to build clipboard
01:19:52 ◼ ► system for everybody kind of obviates, your utility is kind of eventually going to be obviated.
01:19:58 ◼ ► And you need to find, you know, like BBEdit is not going to get obviated and hasn't been
01:20:03 ◼ ► obviated by TextEdit, even though TextEdit is a very credible text editor for opening text
01:20:11 ◼ ► It's the nerdiness and the edge cases and the fact that, yes, it's a little bit like people
01:20:32 ◼ ► And I feel like this is very similar where if all you have is a basic bit of functionality
01:20:37 ◼ ► that should be in the system and then Apple puts it in the system and it completely, just
01:20:50 ◼ ► Because the execution, you should be listening to your customers because they care enough to
01:20:57 ◼ ► They probably have desires that are going to be way beyond what Apple wants to offer them.
01:21:07 ◼ ► I don't remember every single post I've ever posted to Daring Fireball, but I don't see
01:21:15 ◼ ► I posted it in August of 2008, but it's linking to a post from Derek Sivers that he wrote in
01:21:51 ◼ ► I guess that's the one thing I'm maybe missing out on, but I probably, I can't think of any
01:22:17 ◼ ► I mean, again, the automation things never really go away because they know people rely on them.
01:22:29 ◼ ► And they still are adding it to, like, one of the things I was like, because I have some
01:22:46 ◼ ► I was like, well, there go my AppleScripts because no matter how good of a Catalyst app
01:22:55 ◼ ► And at least everything I use scripting wise in messages still works, which is awesome.
01:23:18 ◼ ► So I use it and eventually it'll be a shortcut maybe, but yeah, some of those automations,
01:23:28 ◼ ► And I wish that they were more discoverable for people because like I realized I was dragging
01:23:50 ◼ ► the files where the file extension is web P, convert them to a JPEG, save the converted
01:24:04 ◼ ► And when I drag a web P to the desktop, it goes away and a JPEG appears that people can
01:24:13 ◼ ► And I, yeah, I had some of it in Hazel before, but like, I really liked the idea that the Mac
01:24:28 ◼ ► But the fact that you can use shortcuts and through shortcuts, you can use anything, right?
01:24:32 ◼ ► Cause you can use a shortcut to run a shell script or do whatever based on a file changing
01:24:57 ◼ ► a web P my automation was, I asked Jeff Johnson, the author of a bunch of awesome utilities,
01:25:10 ◼ ► I asked him and then he showed me how to, uh, he did it for me and showed me how to, I think
01:25:20 ◼ ► What he figured out was that it's the way Safari sends the request to the website for, Hey,
01:25:32 ◼ ► And so if the server is capable of serving the same image in multiple formats, it'll serve
01:25:40 ◼ ► And because Safari says that, and I think Safari says it because web P's tend to be smaller or
01:25:46 ◼ ► And so Jeff Johnson either added a feature and showed me how to use it, or he just showed
01:25:59 ◼ ► And maybe I've explained this on daring fireball somewhere, but it's a, it's sort of a old school
01:26:06 ◼ ► I asked a smart developer friend, Hey, how do I stop doing, how do I stop getting these
01:26:17 ◼ ► Well, that's the point I have a, I think I have an automated thing that literally looks
01:26:20 ◼ ► at my downloads folder and says, if there's like a DMG in there older than 30 days, put
01:26:30 ◼ ► I was losing my mind because it was like, I viewed source on these web pages and the image
01:26:43 ◼ ► It's, and it's like I said, if the browser says it'll accept it and the web server is like,
01:26:55 ◼ ► It works for most people, does not work if you're a blogger who wants to download an image
01:27:13 ◼ ► Squarespace is the all in one platform for building your website for you, your friends, your company,
01:27:23 ◼ ► or friends of friends or family members or anybody who comes to you as their like biggest
01:27:55 ◼ ► If you offer services and they store that sells anything products, like if you sell t-shirts
01:28:09 ◼ ► It actually has the store, like where you can actually check out and take money and stuff
01:28:21 ◼ ► You can also sell like virtual goods, like downloadable items or eBooks or whatever it is you're
01:28:29 ◼ ► If you're like a consultant or a trainer or something like that, you can build a website
01:28:33 ◼ ► and it's a built-in feature, how to sell that sort of thing and take money for it right there
01:28:44 ◼ ► If it's something like a service or something where an invoice makes sense instead of just
01:28:50 ◼ ► And then you send your clients an invoice and when they click the invoice, it goes to your
01:28:54 ◼ ► website built on Squarespace and they can pay right there through the Squarespace payments.
01:29:11 ◼ ► And when you do, and you use that code talk show at the end of your 30-day free trial, you
01:29:18 ◼ ► And your first order, you can prepay for a whole year, which is what I recommend you do.
01:29:35 ◼ ► They're like, I can't believe you didn't complain about this, that, or the other thing with Creator
01:29:56 ◼ ► Everybody put that on their to-do list for next year's report card, which I'm going to,
01:30:00 ◼ ► I mean, I had a bunch of stuff come up that I had to, I ended up unexpectedly pushing it
01:30:31 ◼ ► People are going to be like, I can't believe you had it this year when they finally shipped
01:30:35 ◼ ► It's like with Tahoe is like the bad student who came in and turned in trash assignments
01:31:15 ◼ ► And I think the answer is the app store is so limited as a place to sell software that even
01:31:27 ◼ ► And so they have this ridiculous, like they renamed, like I have Apple scripts that do things
01:31:47 ◼ ► But that's what it is because I think what they did is they fused the iOS and Mac apps in the
01:32:02 ◼ ► Even Apple had to just make another app that's the same app in order to do a bundle in order
01:32:14 ◼ ► of those, even if you're not a subscriber to this new suite that they've done, this new
01:32:24 ◼ ► pages, the old non creator studio version of pages is now called in the app store pages
01:32:38 ◼ ► And the idiom that we all used at the time is we would name Photoshop Photoshop three and
01:32:44 ◼ ► it would, you could either keep it a long shot alongside Photoshop 2.5 or wait and see if
01:32:53 ◼ ► But we put the versions in the app names for a long time as just sort of an idiom of being
01:33:05 ◼ ► If you, if you launch the old versions, which they were also auto updated, they say you
01:33:14 ◼ ► the on launch every time you launch it every time you should get the new one from the app
01:33:20 ◼ ► And I think it's really funny in a way because this is developers have had to deal with all
01:33:38 ◼ ► this, but this is what they're, even Apple is reduced to, which it does make me despair.
01:33:46 ◼ ► It does make you despair a little bit when even a major initiative like this couldn't get the
01:34:10 ◼ ► I think having final cut, I think for what they're charging, which is about what I pay for Photoshop
01:34:14 ◼ ► and Lightroom in a year, you get final cut and logic and pixel mater on iPad and on Mac.
01:34:25 ◼ ► And you may not need all of those like motion and there's some of the compressor compressor.
01:34:36 ◼ ► I understand if you only use one of the apps, you're being asked to pay $130 a year or whatever
01:35:03 ◼ ► I think there's a lot of positive things to be said about the creative aspect of the creator
01:35:15 ◼ ► should make it because the idea you used to have to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars
01:35:25 ◼ ► I think final cut was like $399 when it first came out and it was cheap compared to nonlinear
01:35:34 ◼ ► If you go by the app store, the new name of final cut is final cut pro colon create video.
01:35:39 ◼ ► Again, Apple is reduced to the same stupid things that app developers have been reduced
01:35:59 ◼ ► Now let's open the app pages, create documents, or as we like to know it, pages, creator studio
01:36:13 ◼ ► And I think part of it, if we're talking about the app store being limited, I think part of
01:36:24 ◼ ► But it's been a long time since Apple has made a decision that has incensed me more than
01:36:52 ◼ ► But you've put apps that are general purpose apps that exist so that when you buy a Mac or
01:37:06 ◼ ► You just get a document editor and a presentation app and a spreadsheet and you just get them.
01:37:26 ◼ ► There are like you there's UI in the toolbar by default that is content that's only available
01:37:34 ◼ ► And I'm sorry if I just use numbers, that one 2090 year does not make any sense, nor is there
01:37:46 ◼ ► But like the template picker at the beginning when you do command in has a bunch of premium
01:37:51 ◼ ► upsell stuff in it just to remind you the there's a the browser of objects that lets you drag
01:37:56 ◼ ► like a circle or whatever into your keynote presentation has a whole row of like clip art
01:38:06 ◼ ► It's just so it's so cheapens the idea of why those apps exist and for what end because
01:38:20 ◼ ► I might feel differently a little bit if there was also like a $29 a year iWork suite that
01:38:48 ◼ ► And you just reported your highest revenue and most profitable quarter in the company's
01:38:53 ◼ ► One of the most profitable quarters any company in the history of the world has ever reported.
01:39:04 ◼ ► And they made the decision to stop selling the major updates to the iWork apps and just
01:39:41 ◼ ► I hate the way that their own unwillingness, like, hey, we're not using these features.
01:39:50 ◼ ► Where one of the things developers have wanted from the app store from the beginning are ways
01:39:57 ◼ ► Hey, if I sell my app and then I come out with a major new version, the way that my company
01:40:16 ◼ ► And if you bought the last major upgrade in the last X months, and X varies by developer,
01:40:44 ◼ ► Oh, the developer has a history of if you bought it in the last year before a major update,
01:41:00 ◼ ► And if you bought it once in the year 2007, we've just given away all of the updates for
01:41:22 ◼ ► And I think that's the one time in all of the years that I've used those apps that I paid
01:41:27 ◼ ► If you bought them a very long time ago, you've gotten a large number of years and a significant
01:41:34 ◼ ► number of both compatibility, just updating for Retina and updating all the various things
01:41:44 ◼ ► That Apple can afford to effectively give away to existing users for a one-time purchase long
01:41:51 ◼ ► But a company that is, or a small independent developer, large or small, cannot afford to
01:42:09 ◼ ► And all of these things that Apple was like, well, we don't do that, so you don't need to
01:42:18 ◼ ► And it is kind of, it sucks for us as users because it's all, it's not good, but it is kind
01:42:54 ◼ ► The idea that I feel like, I know there are a million clipboard utilities out there, but
01:43:27 ◼ ► And so they made these apps and the net result is the Mac and the iPhone and the iPad are
01:43:32 ◼ ► all nicer because it's not just an empty computer that you can add, you can buy apps for, but
01:44:02 ◼ ► The analogy, I made this analogy, I forget where, on some podcasts, but I'll make it here
01:44:07 ◼ ► really quickly, which is I went to Hawaii last month and we stayed in a nice resort-ish, resort-ish
01:44:20 ◼ ► But this time it was like, we want it to be a little nicer, a little closer to the beach.
01:44:25 ◼ ► And I had a moment while I was in the room where I was thinking like, this is a corporation.
01:44:33 ◼ ► They have whole conversations about the towels they buy, the furniture they buy, the soap that
01:44:48 ◼ ► They have to make decisions that balance their profit motive and their brand promise, right?
01:45:05 ◼ ► And yes, I am the sicko who was thinking about iWork apps while I was on vacation in Hawaii.
01:45:13 ◼ ► It's the same thing, which is, I know you can make the argument that there's always more revenue
01:45:28 ◼ ► This takes us back to talking about who gets, whose argument wins about design and usability
01:45:35 ◼ ► In the end, if you are making a little more money, but eroding your brand, which is, I would
01:45:42 ◼ ► argue, the most powerful and valuable thing Apple has is what Apple means and what Apple
01:46:01 ◼ ► And the downside of that is people won't buy your products anymore because you aren't living
01:46:08 ◼ ► And putting, I think they backed off of some of this, but like launching the new pages and
01:46:13 ◼ ► having in the sidebar where you do formatting, a big ad that says you should buy this subscription
01:46:27 ◼ ► And that is, that's why I think the whole idea that you would turn these things into freemium
01:46:39 ◼ ► But to take the base thing and use it as a, an upsell opportunity, like you're really making
01:47:03 ◼ ► And that's what I feel like that's, I work inside this suite with the upsell and all of
01:47:08 ◼ ► I feel like that is part of this same fundamental disconnect that Apple is having where like
01:47:26 ◼ ► And they're like, but there's revenue that's, yeah, but we don't have a product to sell.
01:47:30 ◼ ► If we drive everybody away, we have to have, we have to meet the promise of what people expect
01:47:37 ◼ ► This is a, it's just a huge mistake because they're taking a thing that, that the goal of
01:47:59 ◼ ► It happens sometimes where I'll get in a hotel room and they don't have like free bottles
01:48:44 ◼ ► But they didn't say, if you touch the refrigerator, we're charging you for the mini bar.
01:49:12 ◼ ► And well, now it's like, if you lift the shampoo off the thing, it's like, you can go out to
01:49:36 ◼ ► I get a cheaper condo rental and they don't have the stuff that they provide because it's
01:49:54 ◼ ► And I cannot believe we even are having a discussion about how Apple doesn't understand
01:50:09 ◼ ► Like, they're part of your brand promise to make it so that maybe they don't remember this.
01:50:14 ◼ ► But it's really important that when you buy a Mac and somebody sends you a Word file or
01:50:26 ◼ ► And I'm quite certain it was when I was preparing for the show, it was one of the articles you
01:50:30 ◼ ► wrote about it where you pointed out that part of what you get with the Creator Studio bundle
01:50:38 ◼ ► Right, which implies that they're never going to make any effort to do any better templates
01:50:52 ◼ ► And we can have really good arguments, and maybe Excel versus Numbers is a terrific argument
01:50:57 ◼ ► where Numbers is clearly a better Mac app, and spreadsheet nerds, which I am not, can make
01:51:05 ◼ ► the argument that Excel, because of its specific spreadsheet-y features, is a better spreadsheet.
01:51:11 ◼ ► Oh, well, here's a good argument on two different axes of Mac likeness and adherence to platform
01:51:26 ◼ ► But one of the things that made Numbers, and especially Keynote, is it came with these exquisite
01:51:37 ◼ ► And it's like, oh, you could use our templates and make, without any design skills, just use
01:51:42 ◼ ► our templates and have a better-looking slide deck than the people who are using PowerPoint
01:52:01 ◼ ► Somebody looked at this, and they're like, hey, we're not making money on these apps anymore,
01:52:10 ◼ ► They say they're going to keep updating and all that, but there is a vibe here that is,
01:52:18 ◼ ► From this point on, you need to pay us for the Creator Studio if you would like new templates
01:52:51 ◼ ► And if, oh, yeah, it's not really like a sequential, like you start a column, one, two, three,
01:53:04 ◼ ► But I'm sure that with AI, you could have like an irregular pattern and it could pick it up.
01:53:21 ◼ ► It really feels nickel and dimey to say, hey, we've improved a fundamental feature of spreadsheets
01:53:29 ◼ ► It really feels like they've sort of just drawn a line effectively, like whatever was in there
01:54:20 ◼ ► a Wednesday, was that they would do the sort of thing, which they've done before, right?
01:54:28 ◼ ► And I know you talked about this on Upgrade too, but I think we're thinking the exact same
01:54:32 ◼ ► thing, where they'll do probably, I guess, Monday will be the iPhone 17e, iPhone first,
01:54:41 ◼ ► Then Tuesday will be whatever new iPads are coming, and it's probably iPad Air going to
01:54:55 ◼ ► But update the base, just No Adjective iPad, update the iPad Air to the M5 on Tuesday, and
01:55:03 ◼ ► then on Wednesday, even though the Experience starts at 9 a.m. in New York, I'm guessing earlier
01:55:13 ◼ ► And I probably guess, based on the combination of just their annual calendar and the rumor
01:55:34 ◼ ► And this new low-cost MacBook that will supposedly run an A-series chip, presumably the A18.
01:55:43 ◼ ► Just three press releases for those three products early in the morning New York time, and then
01:55:50 ◼ ► we show up in New York, and there's a dog and pony show where they've got stations, and we get
01:56:09 ◼ ► That because they're doing simultaneous experiences in London and Shanghai, the people in Shanghai
01:56:19 ◼ ► I have to admit, even though I am a night owl, I have to admit that I would find it extremely
01:56:34 ◼ ► But I guess it explains, because they usually don't start at 9 a.m. local time anywhere.
01:56:39 ◼ ► Of course, as any proper American, I feel like this is the real event in London and Shanghai
01:57:04 ◼ ► We did one New York event where they had a video, and they literally just sat us down and
01:57:07 ◼ ► watched the video where they announced the products, and then we went and looked at the
01:57:34 ◼ ► day by day, product line by product line, not like pro day, where here's the pro products.
01:57:42 ◼ ► I think Apple announces a bunch of new iPads, Apple announces a new iPhone, Apple announces
01:57:55 ◼ ► The one thing I'd throw in, I think German has said that this is probably not happening,
01:57:59 ◼ ► but they could do, if there are new displays, attaching them to an announcement of Mac laptops
01:58:09 ◼ ► Now, there are probably some other Mac announcements forthcoming, because there's a Mac studio
01:58:18 ◼ ► They could announce displays alongside the Mac studio instead, but laptops are a great time
01:58:22 ◼ ► to talk about displays, because most Macs are laptops, and laptops work great when they're
01:58:32 ◼ ► I've heard that the studio display is fading away in terms of availability, which suggests
01:58:39 ◼ ► Yeah, and I could see them wanting to do the studio display separately from, presumably,
01:59:02 ◼ ► We all blame COVID for changing to virtual, but it might have been the reaction to John
01:59:20 ◼ ► It was like pin drop in the audience, and Ternus was like, oh, you guys think that's expensive,
01:59:35 ◼ ► I feel like in the way that they aren't afraid to announce new MacBook Airs alongside new MacBook
01:59:40 ◼ ► Pros and say the MacBook Pros have brighter screens, et cetera, et cetera, I don't think
01:59:44 ◼ ► they'd want to do the studio display alongside the XDR, but they could say, here's what you
01:59:53 ◼ ► If they're coming, I mean, I think it's one of those things where they could do it as part
01:59:58 ◼ ► Generally, it's not bad to put it with another product launch, but the Mac Studio would also
02:00:03 ◼ ► work for that, because the Mac Studio really requires an external display, and there's going
02:00:08 ◼ ► to be an M5 Mac Studio, presumably, and that's not going to come next week, probably, according
02:00:14 ◼ ► So you could see a March announcement that's just a press release that is new Mac Studios and
02:00:22 ◼ ► Like, if you have three different classes of laptop, you're refreshing almost your entire
02:00:27 ◼ ► laptop line, other than the one that you did last fall, then I'm not sure you want more,
02:00:35 ◼ ► I don't think they're a company to hold back if it's ready to go, but I think in this case,
02:00:38 ◼ ► even if the studio is ready to go, they might hold back for a month and be like, ah, wait.
02:00:47 ◼ ► So that low-cost, rumored MacBook, I'm excited about it for a lot of reasons, one of which
02:00:55 ◼ ► is that I feel like it's Apple trying to address a market that they couldn't really address.
02:01:02 ◼ ► Like, Apple always has a bar that they won't go below in terms of the quality of the product,
02:01:07 ◼ ► and that's why they don't make cut rate stuff, and why there hasn't been a Mac that has been
02:01:15 ◼ ► I would argue that Apple Silicon has totally changed the game when they started doing the
02:01:19 ◼ ► M1 Air at Walmart for a deep discount, because even all this time later, M1 performance is
02:01:26 ◼ ► still so good that it's still a viable product, and I think that was the test for whatever this
02:01:39 ◼ ► it goes back to September, it's actually the late summer of 2023, which was the first inkling
02:01:46 ◼ ► we got from DigiTimes that Apple was developing a low-cost MacBook, which they framed as being
02:01:54 ◼ ► And I remember, I mean, I wrote a story about it where I'm like, let's forget about the framing,
02:02:00 ◼ ► forget about that, but like, a cheaper MacBook, given that at that time, the M1 had remained
02:02:06 ◼ ► on sale next to the M2, and then amusingly, the M1 is only now starting to dry up suspiciously
02:02:15 ◼ ► So, because of this DigiTimes report, we've kind of seen this product coming for almost two
02:02:21 ◼ ► and a half years now, and it's taken shape, and then there was the more recent rumor that
02:02:26 ◼ ► said very specifically it was going to be an A18 Pro processor, an iPhone class chip, and
02:02:46 ◼ ► Yeah, it's faster than the M1 in single core, it's the same in multi-core, and it's the same
02:03:00 ◼ ► Certainly acceptable performance, so if they can, I'm just fascinated by this, what do they
02:03:11 ◼ ► Does that mean there are people that are buying Mac laptops that would never have bought a Mac
02:03:19 ◼ ► There are a lot of questions there, but I think it's, leaving everything else aside, I think
02:03:24 ◼ ► there's absolutely a market that is in this $500 or $600 laptop market that Apple has just
02:03:45 ◼ ► I think this idea that some people have that because the chip doesn't start with the letter
02:03:58 ◼ ► Maybe there are certain features they couldn't handle, but I remember charting the Geekbench
02:04:11 ◼ ► The A18 Pro that's in the iPhone 16 Pro Max, single core Geekbench score, 40% faster, 45%
02:04:44 ◼ ► And the web, famously, is single core, because JavaScript is by the nature of JavaScript, which
02:04:51 ◼ ► But if most of what you do is surf the web and just use one app at a time, single core is
02:05:15 ◼ ► And that's the thing that's amazing, is the Air is amazing at $999, and then there are a
02:05:28 ◼ ► And if it's $699 or $599, and then occasionally it gets discounted to like $5 or $499, like
02:05:40 ◼ ► I guess the question is, will that initial price be surprisingly low or surprisingly high?
02:06:00 ◼ ► That would give them $699 education, and then occasional specials in the $699 down to $600 range.
02:06:09 ◼ ► Maybe there isn't even any RAM configuration, and they only charge for storage upgrades.
02:06:15 ◼ ► But I'm going to say $799 to start, the initial coverage will be dominated by, wow, $799 is way too expensive.
02:06:24 ◼ ► But then when it gets out in the real world, and maybe not immediately, but very quickly, you'll be able to get it at Walmart or Amazon or places other than the Apple store where it costs $699 or something like that.
02:06:55 ◼ ► Yeah, and $699 would make me happier because, to me, that's more of a magic number that would get people—anybody who's been just put off by the Mac in general by price.
02:07:16 ◼ ► I think that this will be remarkably thin, and it'll put the MacBook Air back in the spot of being called Air but being thicker and heavier.
02:07:31 ◼ ► Even, like, people who are thinking, oh, I don't want Apple's lowest-cost MacBook are going to be like, oh, maybe I do, because look at it.
02:07:47 ◼ ► A, we've all been complaining for years that Apple doesn't do fun colors with their products enough, and then they make the Cosmic Orange 17 Pro iPhone, and it's, like, a best-selling product.
02:07:56 ◼ ► And it's, like, Apple is, like, geez, why didn't anybody ever say we should make the Pro iPhones in fun colors?
02:08:06 ◼ ► Do you know how many cumulative hours of Apple-oriented podcasts have been devoted to how come the new iPhones pros don't come in fun colors?
02:08:15 ◼ ► But I think the really interesting contrast and the thing to think about is, well, how come the iPhone 16e, we don't know about the 17e yet, but 16e came in white and black, no colors at all.
02:08:26 ◼ ► And that was sort of, like, part of the, well, if you're going to get the base e-model, you don't get colors.
02:08:39 ◼ ► So, I have started to think of that low-end MacBook as being the same as the low-end iPad.
02:08:45 ◼ ► Because the low-end iPad has got a bunch of colors, and it's real compromised in a lot of ways.
02:08:51 ◼ ► But fact is, for a lot of people, they just want an iPad, and, like, they don't need the higher-end stuff.
02:08:58 ◼ ► And they put the fun colors on it, partially maybe because they're trying to appeal to, I don't know, kids and schools and stuff like that.
02:09:05 ◼ ► I don't know the reasons, but they have stuck with that idea of having a bunch of fun, pastel-y kind of colors on those iPads.
02:09:11 ◼ ► And if I think about that product, I feel like the MacBook starts to make sense that it's the Mac equivalent of the low-end iPad.
02:09:30 ◼ ► And not in a pejorative way, like with Creator Studio, which I think we both agree that the upsell-y nature of Creator Studio for things that used to be free like iWork is gross.
02:09:41 ◼ ► But I feel like with iPhone, it is like, hey, this is a product that everybody in the world needs one of.
02:09:51 ◼ ► And so here, it's just white or black if all you want is the base model, and you don't want to buy a refurbished years-old one.
02:09:58 ◼ ► Whereas a MacBook, even a low-end one, if you get this new MacBook, which I think is really going to be the name, and it only costs $699, that's still like a major purchase, and you care about your laptop.
02:10:19 ◼ ► It might be like for families and the kids, like you've got like a kid in middle school who's been begging.
02:10:40 ◼ ► But then it's like the kid wants a fun one, because it's like a really big deal for them.
02:10:46 ◼ ► I think it's sort of, I'd like to see some colors in the 17e iPhone 2, or at least one color other than black and white.
02:10:57 ◼ ► But I do think there's something different about the MacBook, and I think it's really kind of interesting that's what the rumors say.
02:11:08 ◼ ► Yeah, I think it's going to be funny, though, if everybody who's got like a MacBook Air looks at those things and is like, where are my colors?
02:11:26 ◼ ► It would be the first Mac laptop that's had appreciable color since the original iBooks.
02:11:36 ◼ ► And I think Apple philosophically has said, a laptop is a thing you take with you, especially for business, people who are doing work out in the world with their laptop.
02:11:51 ◼ ► And that a colorful laptop, while a fun idea, is maybe when those original iBooks were out there, they got feedback that they were just too garish.
02:12:31 ◼ ► And that's my feeling, and that was my feeling about when they did the colorful iMacs recently, is they sell it in silver.
02:12:42 ◼ ► But if you want to put an orange one in your hotel lobby or whatever, you have the option of doing that, and that's pretty awesome.
02:12:59 ◼ ► I mean, Apple will know exactly how many of those things they sell, and maybe we'll never see it again.
02:13:04 ◼ ► But the idea that in a week there's going to be a green laptop out there somewhere, that's pretty cool.
02:13:10 ◼ ► Yeah, and I really, you know, I wrote my report card, like one of my favorite things of 2025 for Apple was the shift from iPhone SEs to the 16e and putting the number in there, which implied right at the start, and here we are all expecting a 17e next week,
02:13:28 ◼ ► that they're going to update this phone every year as opposed to every two to five years or whatever the totally erratic schedule of the SE updates was.
02:13:38 ◼ ► Like you emphasized just a few minutes ago that the M1 is still a totally credible system on a chip for processing speed, but there's all sorts of other things that are outdated five years later, right?
02:13:49 ◼ ► And it would be nice to keep up to date for matter integration with the home and stuff like that, where if they can use the A series chips and put them in a lower cost MacBook and you get performance that actually beats the M1, but then also get relatively up to date Wi-Fi and Bluetooth and everything else.
02:14:15 ◼ ► That's just like, hey, you can't just expect a five-year-old SKU to have a Wi-Fi standard that came out three years ago.
02:14:27 ◼ ► I, one of the things I'm curious about is to see how that MacBook's specs look and what they do kind of short of standard and what they do that seems surprisingly like standard.
02:14:38 ◼ ► My guess is that they will lean toward having a little less margin or a little higher price in the beginning so that they can use that same design for a long time.
02:14:47 ◼ ► You put in the chip that's a little more expensive, but it means that you don't have to switch the chip for four years instead of having to switch it next year.
02:15:09 ◼ ► And that is the beauty of taking this M1 and putting it out to pasture, but having like an A18 MacBook is that you could just do an A19 MacBook and it won't be a big deal.
02:15:20 ◼ ► It'll just be a speed bump and nobody will really care, but it allows them to kind of keep it kind of just keeping pace at the back of the performance line, but still relevant every year or year and a half.
02:15:36 ◼ ► The only way they're going to be able to keep their margins up on this product is to keep it around for a long time.
02:15:42 ◼ ► But they can update the A series chip in it and still keep the rest of it exactly the same.
02:15:47 ◼ ► And that's, I mean, that's how every Apple product works is they do a big redesign and then they stretch it out over four or five years.
02:16:09 ◼ ► We buried the hatchet and I'm definitely not going to punch you when I see you next week.
02:16:17 ◼ ► My thanks to our sponsors, I think, going in reverse order, Squarespace, where you can build a website, Sentry, a developer toolkit that you can integrate in your app for error monitoring and tracing, and Notion, the AI workspace where teams and AI agents, including new custom agents, get more done together.
02:16:37 ◼ ► And Jason is at SixColors.com, a whole bunch of podcasts at RelayFM and The Incomparable, including my favorite of his podcasts, Upgrade, but listen to those podcasts.