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178: The Process of Investigative Reporting, With Jason Schreier

 

00:00:00   Welcome back to Cortex. Today, I'm joined by Jason Schreier. Jason is the lead video game reporter at Bloomberg, and he's also the author of three books, Blood, Sweat & Pixels, Press Reset, and most recently, Play Nice, the inside story of Blizzard. As you can tell, Jason writes all about video games.

00:00:17   If you follow the games industry at all, you will have certainly read his reporting. Jason has broken some of the biggest stories of the last decade about crunch culture, studio closures, canceled games, and what is really happening inside the companies that make the games we play. Jason's work has had real, lasting consequences, and his books have changed how a lot of people think about the industry.

00:00:41   Jason has these two very different writing lives running in parallel, both the daily rhythm of reporting, one of the biggest financial news organizations, and the much longer, deeper work of writing books. I want to talk about how he manages them both separately and how they intertwine. Like, how do you do these things side by side? How do you juggle them? Do the processes differ? And where? We're going to get into all of that on this episode. Please enjoy.

00:01:08   So, Jason, I want to get started by asking, what is the piece of equipment in your life, the device in your life that is the most important for you for getting your work done?

00:01:17   I would say it's my MacBook. This is probably a cliche answer, probably one you get a lot, but yeah, my MacBook Air, I started using a MacBook Air like around 2013 or so. And before that, I had been using just kind of bulkier PC laptops. And once I switched to a MacBook, and especially the MacBook Air, it was very hard to go back.

00:01:37   Everything about it is just very convenient for a writer. It's very light, very easy to take anywhere I need it. Keyboard is great. Trackpad is great. There has not been a better laptop form factor. And it's got 16 gigabytes of RAM. So like, more than enough or anything I could possibly need.

00:01:56   And yeah, it's a winner of a machine and has been. And I'm not like a big Mac person. I'm recording this on my desktop PC. But the MacBook Air has just always been it for me.

00:02:06   It is like the default laptop now. Like that's just laptop now. It's a MacBook Air.

00:02:10   Yeah, it's just the best. And it's kind of like the iPhone in that. Although, well, no, actually, I take that back because like, I think there are some competitors to the iPhone that are just as good in a lot of different ways. But no, it's just really the standard to which everything is held. I don't know. It's like a Honda CRV or something like that. But yeah, I mean, MacBook Air is really the way to go.

00:02:32   So you mentioned you're a writer. For people that are maybe unfamiliar, how would you describe the core of what you do on a daily basis?

00:02:39   Sure. I mean, I'm a reporter and I cover the video game industry, which is a weird and wild and never not interesting industry to cover. And so my day to day is typically a lot of reporting, a lot of phone calls and a lot of writing stories and just working on ongoing projects.

00:02:58   And then I have a couple of side gigs. I write books on the side as well and do a podcast, which is less writing and more talking, I suppose. But it's all kind of the same skill set, I think.

00:03:09   I think for people who follow video game news, they're very familiar with you. What do you think people know you for primarily?

00:03:17   I don't know. I mean, it depends, right? I mean, some people, I think, know me from my books. Other people know me from just kind of breaking news about the industry or just kind of doing stories about what's going on behind the scenes at game companies and behind the scenes in game development.

00:03:35   Hopefully helping clarify for people a little bit about what it's like to make games, why it's so difficult, why it's so expensive, and answering some of the questions that hopefully help explain what's going on in the video game industry today.

00:03:51   What was it that drew you to reporting on games specifically?

00:03:54   It's funny. I'll tell you the story, a quick origin story, which is I always knew I wanted to be a writer and kind of fell in love with journalism in high school and was on my high school paper and whatnot.

00:04:04   And then after I graduated from college, I was doing some freelancing, moved back in with my parents for a little bit while I was trying to find my feet, figure out what I want to do.

00:04:13   I was doing some freelance journalism and I wound up covering this local zoning board meeting.

00:04:19   And I remember sitting in this room in this big kind of cavernous town hall type room where a bunch of old dudes on a stage with a podium were arguing over whether a fence is allowed to be 30 feet or 25 feet.

00:04:33   And I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I got to find something more interesting to write about.

00:04:39   And then just kind of fell into games thinking I would just try writing about games for a little while, see if that was interesting, maybe, and then use that as a springboard to just write about other stuff.

00:04:48   And then just kind of accidentally wound up turning that into a career totally with zero intentions whatsoever.

00:04:54   I thought that I would be doing other things, but just kind of wound up sticking with this for a lot of inexplicable reasons.

00:05:02   So you were writing at Kotaku for a long time and then you made the move to Bloomberg.

00:05:07   What was it that made you want to make that move to a much more traditional brand?

00:05:13   Yeah. So what happened was I was working at Kotaku for a long time, really enjoyed it, really enjoyed working for Stephen Totillo, who is the editor-in-chief and my boss and remains a very good friend of mine.

00:05:24   And working with a lot of the people that I worked with at Kotaku, it was a really fun place to work.

00:05:29   But it's been very public that Gawker Media was dissolved, smashed apart by Hulk Hogan, and then we were kind of sold.

00:05:37   We were owned by Univision for a few years, and then we got sold to a private equity company.

00:05:41   And that private equity company installed a new CEO who really just ruined the company for everybody.

00:05:48   He wound up destroying Deadspin, and that led a lot of people to want to leave, myself included.

00:05:54   And so that was the fall of 2019 is when I started looking and trying to figure out what I was going to do next.

00:05:59   And then in the spring of 2020 is when I ultimately decided to go to Bloomberg.

00:06:06   And yeah, it seemed like an interesting place to go for a lot of reasons, but it also seemed like a new challenge.

00:06:11   And something that I always try to do is find new skill sets to work on or find new things to do.

00:06:18   I get bored if I'm just doing the same thing over and over again.

00:06:21   And so going from a hardcore gaming enthusiast site where everybody who's reading it knows who Reggie Fils-Aimé is

00:06:29   and knows what the PlayStation 4 is, going to a mainstream news website where maybe your average reader

00:06:35   doesn't know much about the video game industry, that seemed like a really interesting challenge to me.

00:06:41   And I've actually been very lucky at Bloomberg for a lot of reasons,

00:06:44   but one of those is that I have a weekly column or newsletter where I can kind of write about the video game industry in a more granular way

00:06:55   that I wouldn't be able to do in kind of a standard Bloomberg news story or feature.

00:07:02   So I found a nice balance of being able to write for more of an enthusiast audience through that column

00:07:08   or at least write things that I find really interesting about the games industry

00:07:12   and also just doing the kind of the mainstream reporting that they hired me to do.

00:07:16   So yeah, I think it's worked out nicely.

00:07:18   I'm very glad.

00:07:18   I've been here for six years now and really enjoyed it, almost as long as I was at Kotaku at this point.

00:07:24   Does Bloomberg, being kind of the institution that it is, give you access to more resources than you would

00:07:31   at a smaller site or a more indie site?

00:07:33   I mean, I see anything like legal support and stuff like that is definitely available to you.

00:07:37   My only comparison here is Kotaku, right?

00:07:39   Which was an indie.

00:07:40   Like we were part of a media organization.

00:07:42   We had lawyers.

00:07:43   We had HR support.

00:07:44   We had certainly a travel budget.

00:07:47   There are a couple of advantages I have at Bloomberg.

00:07:49   It's a really great place to work.

00:07:50   They treat us very well.

00:07:51   Yes, we have a great legal team.

00:07:53   I have a lot of editors and a lot of very talented colleagues who I can learn a lot from,

00:07:59   which is really valuable.

00:08:00   I get a lot out of that.

00:08:01   I'm part of this great team, this entertainment slash media team with a lot of really cool people,

00:08:07   really fascinating people who I really enjoy working with.

00:08:10   So that's really helpful.

00:08:11   And I don't have a lot of complaints.

00:08:13   And I'm very lucky on that front because being in the media business these days,

00:08:17   there aren't a lot of companies you could say that about.

00:08:19   It's interesting.

00:08:20   It's like a thing that happened to me over time.

00:08:23   I mean, all the areas that I care about, basically, my favorite writers are at Bloomberg,

00:08:27   which is between you, Lucas Shaw, and Mark Gurman, of like the people who are most connected

00:08:32   in the areas that I care about and cover.

00:08:34   It's just kind of ended up that Bloomberg is the place.

00:08:38   I assume that's not by accident.

00:08:41   So Lucas is on my team.

00:08:42   He's our team lead.

00:08:43   Mark, he's on our broader tech team.

00:08:45   So I work with him quite a bit and chat with him quite a bit.

00:08:48   And yeah, they're both fantastic writers and reporters.

00:08:52   And yeah, I mean, I know you're right.

00:08:54   It's not a coincidence that like Bloomberg really looks for people who, especially people who can

00:08:58   break news, that's something that is very highly valued at Bloomberg is being able to get scoops,

00:09:03   being able to break news and get stories up before anyone else.

00:09:08   And I think Lucas and Mark are both fantastic at doing that.

00:09:12   Well, as are you, I want to talk a little bit about that.

00:09:15   So you are one of the big kind of news breakers in the video game industry.

00:09:21   How much of your reporting work is reactive versus stories you're building over time?

00:09:28   That is a great question.

00:09:29   It depends on the week, right?

00:09:31   So sometimes if I'm lucky, I'll have an inkling that something is going to come up.

00:09:37   But like, you never know if you're going to get a text from someone being like, hey, our

00:09:41   company just laid off 500 people or like, hey, this big new game is getting delayed or hey,

00:09:46   this executive just stepped down, et cetera, et cetera.

00:09:50   So it really depends on the week.

00:09:51   Some weeks there might be four different stories that I have to juggle.

00:09:55   And then some weeks there might be nothing.

00:09:57   And I might just have the freedom to be pursuing other stuff.

00:09:59   But something that happens in reporting is that the two are intertwined.

00:10:04   So as I'm working on bigger features, just by nature, I'm going to be talking to people.

00:10:09   And when I'm talking to people, I mean, I might be calling up someone for a feature about

00:10:15   AI in the video game industry.

00:10:16   I say that because that's something that I'm going to be working on in the next few

00:10:19   weeks is like how games companies are using AI.

00:10:21   I might be calling someone up for a story about that.

00:10:24   And they happen to work at a company where there's some news going on and they tell me

00:10:29   a tip or they've heard something about another company and they just give me a tip while I'm

00:10:32   on the phone with them.

00:10:33   So the two can kind of be intertwined in that most of my job is just talking to people.

00:10:39   And when you're talking to people, a lot of times they just have interesting things to

00:10:43   share.

00:10:43   Which, by the way, this is my favorite part of being a reporter is just getting to ask people

00:10:47   questions.

00:10:48   I've always been driven by curiosity in a big way.

00:10:51   You mentioned speaking on the phone.

00:10:53   Do you mean like actually making phone calls?

00:10:55   Oh, yeah.

00:10:56   No, that's a lot of my days making phone calls.

00:10:59   I think that like maybe younger reporters or people are just coming up don't realize this,

00:11:04   but like it is impossible to do this job in a good way if you're just sending emails to

00:11:09   people and talking to them online.

00:11:11   Like you need to have out loud conversations.

00:11:13   And it's funny, I'm almost 39.

00:11:15   People who are a generation above me, people who are in their 50s or 60s, they would say like

00:11:20   the really old school veteran reporters, they would say the phone is not enough.

00:11:24   You need to be meeting people in person and talking to them in person.

00:11:27   Yeah, exactly.

00:11:28   For the industry I cover, that's not practical because it's so scattered.

00:11:32   There's so many different people in so many different parts of the world who are making

00:11:35   games.

00:11:36   So the phone will have to suffice.

00:11:37   And I mean, sometimes I'll be on my phone, on signal, on text, like talking to people about,

00:11:43   I guess, less in-depth things.

00:11:44   But most of the time when someone reaches out to me with a tip, the first thing I'll try to

00:11:48   do is get them on the phone.

00:11:49   Because yeah, that's vital.

00:11:51   I think just having conversations out loud is so much more valuable and you get so much

00:11:55   more out of them than trying to do an email.

00:11:59   And sometimes companies will come to me and be like, hey, we want to do an email interview.

00:12:02   And almost always, I'll say no to that because I don't find those very valuable.

00:12:07   With the exception of like a quick fact-checking questionnaire there, something that's a little

00:12:11   bit more kind of granular or very easily answerable with a yes or no, something like that, that's

00:12:18   totally fine by email.

00:12:19   But no, if you're having a real conversation with someone, you want to get them on the

00:12:21   phone.

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00:13:58   When you're speaking to people, say for a story, are you making notes?

00:14:03   Are you recording the calls and transcribing them?

00:14:05   Like, how does that work for you?

00:14:06   Yeah, it depends.

00:14:08   It depends on the nature of the interview.

00:14:11   Sometimes for more sensitive stuff, I will not record.

00:14:15   I'll just type as we're talking.

00:14:17   Oftentimes, I'll get people back on the phone when I'm ready to do the story,

00:14:21   and I'll just run things by them to make sure that it's accurate.

00:14:24   For more formal interviews where someone is talking to me on the record,

00:14:28   I'll almost always record and also take notes.

00:14:31   So I'll do both.

00:14:32   I got a trusty, my trusty digital recorder.

00:14:35   I actually just bought a new one.

00:14:36   I had this one, since you're interested in kind of the granular details of this, I'll tell you.

00:14:41   I have this Sony.

00:14:42   It's called Sony UX570.

00:14:45   I had one.

00:14:45   I got it in 2018.

00:14:46   And recently, it started crapping out.

00:14:49   And it actually has been dying in the middle of, like, interviews.

00:14:54   Not ideal, no.

00:14:55   You have one job.

00:14:56   Yeah, right?

00:14:56   The one thing I need you to do.

00:14:58   So, but it did serve me well for those seven years.

00:15:01   And I feel like seven years, okay, fair enough.

00:15:02   Like, maybe you've outlived your lifespan.

00:15:05   So I just bought this new one, like, a week ago.

00:15:08   Same brand.

00:15:09   And it's just the newest version.

00:15:11   Why would you use, like, a physical recording device and not something, like an app?

00:15:15   I trust physical recording devices much more.

00:15:18   Okay.

00:15:18   Especially if sometimes I'm talking to people with more sensitive conversations.

00:15:22   I do not want that audio file connected to someone else's company.

00:15:26   I mean, I wouldn't trust that an app wouldn't be storing that file in the cloud somewhere.

00:15:32   And I don't want that.

00:15:33   So I try to take OPSEC very seriously when I'm talking to people who, like, have to stay anonymous

00:15:38   and are worried about their careers getting affected if they're found talking to me or something like that.

00:15:43   And there's something about a physical recorder that I've always just kind of relied on.

00:15:48   I've always used a physical recorder.

00:15:49   A lot of people just use, like, voice memos on their phone, which is also fine.

00:15:52   I've used that in a pinch.

00:15:53   And then sometimes, especially after this recent experience of my recorder dying on me,

00:15:58   especially for a really important, like, once-in-a-lifetime interviews, that sort of thing,

00:16:01   I'll use the phone voice recorder app and then also the physical recorder at the same time.

00:16:05   I'm recording this interview in two places.

00:16:08   And you are as well.

00:16:09   Everyone's recording constantly.

00:16:11   That's the way to go.

00:16:12   Do you always have to be ready to work?

00:16:15   Because news breaking can occur at any point.

00:16:18   Do you have to live your life in some kind of constant state of readiness?

00:16:23   No, not really.

00:16:24   One of the things I'm fortunate about at Bloomberg is that we're a newsroom that's global,

00:16:29   that is thousands of people strong.

00:16:32   And so if something crazy happens over a weekend or at night, there would be someone online to handle it at all times.

00:16:42   If it's something related to my beat and it's really crazy, I might get looped in and they might call me and see if I'm available.

00:16:47   Actually, I'll give you a good example of that.

00:16:49   In September of 2022, I was on paternity leave.

00:16:55   My second kid had just been born.

00:16:58   And there was a massive leak at Rockstar where like all this footage of Grand Theft Auto 6 came out.

00:17:05   And I got called in to help with some reporting and like verify that it was real and do a story and whatnot, even though I was on leave.

00:17:11   Which I was totally fine with because they called me and they said, hey, do you have a couple hours?

00:17:16   And I was like, yeah, let me see what I can do and what can I handle.

00:17:18   But it wasn't like they expected me to drop everything I was doing and just like get to a computer and write up a story.

00:17:24   It was more like, can you help out with this?

00:17:25   Which I think is totally reasonable for a story of that magnitude.

00:17:29   But yeah, but it's not like I would ever be expected to be like, oh, it's a Saturday.

00:17:34   Like some breaking news just dropped.

00:17:35   You need to leave the playground and go home and get on a computer and write this up.

00:17:40   Like, no, someone else can handle writing it up.

00:17:42   Maybe I can help out with like some supplemental reporting or something as necessary.

00:17:47   But nobody has ever demanded me to drop everything I'm doing and like jump to a computer and break some news or anything like that.

00:17:53   And I guess that is a benefit than, you know, like a lot of people are starting independent sites now.

00:17:58   And that was kind of one of the things that I was mentioning earlier about kind of like the resources available.

00:18:03   And this is another one.

00:18:04   Like if you were on your own, you would be the one writing it up at any time of the day.

00:18:07   But because you have colleagues, you know, people can work together.

00:18:12   Yeah, although counterpoint to that is if I were doing something on my own, like if I did a sub stack or something, or if I decided I'm going to get three people together, we're going to start an independent gaming news website.

00:18:21   I don't think there would be much purpose to being such a generalized like all purpose website that we'd have to jump on something the moment it hits.

00:18:33   I think if you're starting something new in 2026, you need to be able to provide value that only you can provide, which means not just doing the same stories as everybody else.

00:18:42   So like just to use that GTA story as an example, let's say I had a sub stack or I had an independent news site and that hit and I was on paternity leave or something, or I was on vacation, whatever.

00:18:54   To me, it would not be useful for me to drop everything I'm doing just to aggregate the same news that everybody else is aggregating.

00:19:00   It's just like, here's what's happening.

00:19:02   To me, it would be like, okay, well, this just happened.

00:19:04   I'm going to give it a beat and maybe the next day or something, I can make some calls and see what new value I can bring to the table and then do a story based on that, which doesn't have to be incredibly time sensitive and will give readers value, even if they're reading it the day after the news happened.

00:19:21   So to me, that's much more valuable.

00:19:23   I think for an institution like Bloomberg that is expected by its millions of readers to have news as soon as it happens, it's kind of a different stakes.

00:19:32   The stakes are very different.

00:19:33   The scope is very different.

00:19:34   The scale is very different.

00:19:35   But again, if I were starting something new, like there's no use in trying to compete with the big outlets that are hitting every news as soon as it happens.

00:19:44   Like that is not where you can provide value.

00:19:47   The stories that you write, whether they be breaking or they're like longer features where you're building stuff over time, how much of this work comes from you reaching out to people to try and think of a story or people kind of reaching out to you and saying, I have something you might be interested in?

00:20:06   What is that kind of breakdown?

00:20:07   Yeah, it's a total mix of both, right?

00:20:10   So often I will get tips from people being like, hey, this company sucks for X, Y, and Z reasons.

00:20:17   Sometimes those will lead to stories.

00:20:19   Sometimes they won't.

00:20:20   What often happens, a kind of typical breakdown is that someone will reach out to me and say, hey, here's a story.

00:20:25   I will corroborate that by then reaching out to more people who work there or connected there or who would know parts of the story or whatever it is.

00:20:34   And so it's a cascading effect.

00:20:36   And sometimes the original tip server will be like, hey, here's a list of names of people who it might be helpful to reach out to.

00:20:41   So it might go like that, but it often starts with a tip.

00:20:44   And then sometimes it'll be like, hey, this crazy debacle just happened.

00:20:48   Like High Guard just came out.

00:20:49   You should call some people and try to figure out what happened there.

00:20:52   And so those stories can just be triggered by like something that everybody knows about and is wondering what the answer is to the question of what happened here exactly.

00:21:02   It seems like trust is very important in the work that you do.

00:21:06   Did it take a long time for you to build that trust of people?

00:21:10   And do you know why people started trusting you with information?

00:21:13   I do not.

00:21:14   And I don't even know if it took a long time.

00:21:16   I mean, my hope is just that people trust me when they talk to me.

00:21:19   But people agree to talk for all sorts of reasons.

00:21:21   It could be that they just like feel like talking and it's cathartic for them to talk.

00:21:25   I certainly hope that people have grown to trust me over the years.

00:21:30   And I think it definitely helps that I have a long history and I've been doing this for a long time and have a long extensive body of work at this point.

00:21:37   And also a history of protecting sources and making sure that they can stay anonymous if they do choose to chat with me.

00:21:44   But at the end of the day, it's hard for me to know.

00:21:46   I'm not like making a habit of asking people, so why do you trust me again?

00:21:50   Why are you taking the time to talk to me again?

00:21:52   Because I always wonder like how this kind of stuff begins.

00:21:55   and I guess it just begins somehow and then just the process of you doing things properly just enforces that in others.

00:22:01   People see it, right?

00:22:02   Like I'm sure there are people in gaming.

00:22:04   They have a piece of information they want to get out and they're like, I know I can trust Jason because he's so good at what he does.

00:22:10   I would assume that's the thought process people have.

00:22:12   I hope so.

00:22:13   But I have no idea.

00:22:14   I honestly have no clue.

00:22:16   Like I wouldn't know.

00:22:17   All I know is like when people reach out to me with stories, I want to talk to them about their stories.

00:22:21   I don't generally know why they chose to reach out to me.

00:22:25   But yeah, I mean, I'm very fortunate to have that position and hopefully take the responsibility seriously.

00:22:32   I mean, you mentioned aggregation, like pieces of news just being the same essentially everywhere.

00:22:38   People reporting on reports.

00:22:39   And it seems like over time, I think maybe social media has made this even worse, I guess.

00:22:47   People take the smallest comments that you make and spin them out into huge stories.

00:22:51   Like sometimes it feels like you can't say anything anywhere without it being news.

00:22:54   Especially about Grand Theft Auto.

00:22:56   Yes, especially about GTA.

00:22:58   How do you handle this?

00:23:00   Do you feel the need to be reserved in certain places or do you just kind of roll the punches?

00:23:05   It's funny you're asking me that because I don't think I handle it very well.

00:23:08   I still make the mistake of saying things that get totally taken out of context and extrapolated and turned into headlines all over the internet.

00:23:17   So I don't know.

00:23:18   But also part of me feels like, screw those people.

00:23:20   Like I don't want to censor myself for them.

00:23:22   So I don't know.

00:23:23   I don't really know how to deal with that.

00:23:24   It's kind of a unique internet culture problem that is just getting worse all the time because now there are also websites that are just kind of AI bots that are scraping things said by people like me and just turning them into headlines.

00:23:37   And stories written by LLMs, which is a whole nother thing.

00:23:41   Yeah, man, it's an interesting problem to have.

00:23:44   Part of me feels like I'm very lucky to have that problem because in the new internet era in 2026 and the kind of the current landscape, attention is a very vital part of how you do just about anything.

00:23:59   How you get people to read your work or listen to your work and ideally pay you money for your work.

00:24:06   And I'm very fortunate in that I don't really have a hard time getting attention from people because I've become a little bit of a high profile figure in this industry among certain nerdy crowds.

00:24:19   And so I'd rather have the problem of being taken out of context and misinterpreted than the problem of not being paid attention to at all.

00:24:28   So I think it's just the downside that comes with something that is very fortunate.

00:24:33   Yeah, because like ultimately it's like if Jason has an opinion, we can state it as fact if we say he said it, right?

00:24:41   Like I think it's like that is the way that a lot of people like Jason could just say something, which is what he thinks.

00:24:47   But your name now carries a weight that if people just say Jason Schreier says, maybe there is no Grand Theft Auto.

00:24:54   And then that can become like a thing that people believe.

00:24:58   But you're right, like that is the downside of people paying any attention to it.

00:25:02   It's just the way that it is.

00:25:02   Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think that like all I can do is just keep trying to do good work and like hopefully correct people when I can.

00:25:12   And yeah, I mean, it is what it is.

00:25:15   This episode of Cortex is brought to you by Century.

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00:26:49   So, as well as being a reporter, you're also an author.

00:26:52   You've written three books now, right?

00:26:54   Blood, Sweat, and Pixels, Press Reset, and Play Nice.

00:26:56   And they're all focused on the video game industry in some way.

00:27:00   My personal favorite being Play Nice, because I just like the continuous story, which is like, it's almost like a biography of Blizzard.

00:27:07   I really enjoy that book a lot.

00:27:09   Thank you, I appreciate that.

00:27:10   How do you decide what a book topic will be about?

00:27:15   Do you have a feeling like, oh, I want to write a book about this, or do you feel like I want to write a book, what will it be about?

00:27:21   Like, where does that process begin?

00:27:23   So, that's a very timely question, because after Play Nice was published in October of 2024, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next.

00:27:33   And I spent, like, all of last year trying to figure out, am I going to do a story about this?

00:27:36   Am I going to write about this?

00:27:37   And none of the ideas really excited me, even though they might have been good stories.

00:27:42   None of them really got me excited.

00:27:43   And then I landed on something that I've started to get really excited about, and I think it's going to wind up being my next thing.

00:27:49   It won't be for a while, so I'll hold off on saying exactly what it is, but it's going to get me excited.

00:27:54   And I think that fundamentally is it for me, is like, you have to be really excited about an idea in order to be willing to commit the three plus years it takes to write a book about it.

00:28:07   Because it's a huge commitment.

00:28:09   Yeah, it's a huge thing.

00:28:10   I mean, for these projects, like, the way that I do books is that they're almost entirely based on firsthand reporting and interviews directly with the subjects, which means that there's a huge amount of research and interviewing that goes into them.

00:28:24   The writing itself, I knock out in a few months, but it's the reporting and the research that takes years potentially to do.

00:28:32   Just lining up interviews and scheduling them and doing them and piecing them together and then doing follow-ups and figuring out what info you need to tell your story and outlining, et cetera, et cetera.

00:28:42   All that process, corroborating, fact-checking.

00:28:45   That's the really time-consuming part of this.

00:28:47   So, yeah, for me to want to do that, it's really just about how excited I am about the idea.

00:28:53   That said, I'm with you.

00:28:54   I like the single-story approach better than the anthology approach, and I've enjoyed that more.

00:29:00   My first book, Blood, Sweat, and Pixels, was just a collection of 10 independent game dev stories.

00:29:07   And I was joking that, like, that was me writing a book on easy mode because it was just 10 mega articles instead of, like, one big coherent book.

00:29:15   It was probably a good on-ramp for you, though.

00:29:17   It was.

00:29:17   Yeah, exactly.

00:29:18   It was.

00:29:19   Yeah.

00:29:19   And, well, so the reason I did that, by the way, is not necessarily because it was like, this is what I want to do as an easy on-ramp for my first book.

00:29:26   It was more that back then in 2016, when I sold that book, it was very difficult to get anyone to care about the idea of a video game book

00:29:36   because traditionally, books about gaming history and video games had not sold well, and there was very little appetite for them.

00:29:43   And so I figured that the way to sell it was to be like, this is going to be a book that we can just appeal to all these people by being like,

00:29:52   it's about Dragon Age and Uncharted and Star Wars and all these high-profile franchises.

00:29:56   And by smashing them all together, we could reach as broad an audience as possible.

00:30:01   And I think things have changed, especially for me, things have changed a lot since then.

00:30:06   And now I have a little bit more leeway because my books have sold quite well.

00:30:09   And so I have some leeway to just be able to essentially pick what story I want to write about.

00:30:14   And I still have to convince my editor and my agent and be like, hey, this is why it's worth taking a stab at this.

00:30:20   But back then, I didn't have quite as much flexibility in what I could choose to write about.

00:30:25   Let's take a look at Play Nice as an example.

00:30:28   For that book, which is essentially the history of Blizzard from its kind of beginnings to the point where the book was published,

00:30:36   where they're now a part of Xbox.

00:30:37   It's kind of like the history of that company as an independent entity for as much as it was.

00:30:42   Where do you begin?

00:30:43   Do you begin with an outline of what you want to cover?

00:30:47   Or do you just start interviewing people and see where the outline starts to appear?

00:30:51   With that book, I started having an idea in my head.

00:30:55   And then I started interviewing people.

00:30:57   And the more I interviewed people, the more that idea changed.

00:31:00   So originally, my plan with Play Nice was to really just kind of focus on the modern era of Blizzard

00:31:08   and spend a lot more time just dealing with the Blizzard Activision drama, which was kind of the crux of the story.

00:31:15   I mean, the way I pitched this book originally was like, hey, here's this company, Blizzard, that was beloved.

00:31:20   And then Activision started really taking over and influencing Blizzard in a huge way.

00:31:25   And this is what happened when those two kind of cultures clashed.

00:31:28   And here's the messy results.

00:31:30   That was kind of the original pitch of the story.

00:31:31   And then what happened was, well, first of all, after I sold the book, three months later, there was a massive lawsuit.

00:31:38   And sexual misconduct scandal.

00:31:40   So that was a whole new wrinkle for the book that I could dive into.

00:31:43   But also what happened was, I started interviewing more and more people who were there in the early days of Blizzard and just hearing their stories.

00:31:50   And it was so fascinating and so relevant to the story that I felt like, oh, man, I'm going to have to expand the earlier section even more than I thought I would.

00:32:00   The entire first act of the book is dedicated to the early days of Blizzard.

00:32:04   And there were a couple of reasons for that.

00:32:05   One is just it was just so many good anecdotes that had never been told before that were worth sharing.

00:32:10   All these stories about like Blizzard getting banned from a hotel because they were drunkenly flooded a hallway and brawls in the office and smash controllers and strip clubs and all this wild stuff.

00:32:22   And also really good stuff, too, like stuff about the creativity and how they made these decisions for Warcraft and Starcraft, et cetera, et cetera.

00:32:29   So that's reason number one for why I wanted to delve more into the early days of Blizzard.

00:32:33   But then reason number two, and this is even more important, is that narratively, I found that so much of what happened in the later days with the scandals and with the Activision takeover could be traced back to the very beginning of it all.

00:32:48   And you could follow these through lines throughout the story.

00:32:51   And so, for example, I mean, with the sexual harassment stuff and the lawsuits and the scandals and women talking about how they were mistreated at the company, a lot of that just goes back to the original culture of Blizzard, which was all dudes and some of the kind of people who grew up in that culture and how it influenced them and how it influenced the entire company.

00:33:11   So you really can't understand what happened in 2021 without going all the way back to 1991 and starting from there.

00:33:17   So the book changed a lot as I was going in ways that I didn't expect, which is part of the fun.

00:33:23   Yeah.

00:33:23   So you mentioned that the majority of kind of the we'll call it the book writing process is the interviewing.

00:33:29   Do you or are you able to use information you've previously gotten from sources or reported on or do you have to go back and speak to everybody again for the book?

00:33:40   Yeah, it depends on the story, right?

00:33:42   So like for the Blizzard book, I had a lot of notes from just previous interviews I've done with Blizzard people.

00:33:47   Oh, and then also from your reporting that was occurring concurrently, right?

00:33:51   I guess, too.

00:33:52   Yeah.

00:33:52   Yes.

00:33:53   And so I could certainly use that, but I wasn't going to quote people in a book without getting their permission to quote them.

00:33:59   So if I ever wanted to quote someone by name, I always got their permission before doing it in the book and had to review that with them.

00:34:06   And usually it was helpful to have fresh interviews anyway.

00:34:09   So most of the interviews, well, all of the interviews that are like quoted directly in Play Nice are fresh interviews that I did for the book.

00:34:17   But it's always helpful having context and history and notes.

00:34:20   But most of the time what I did was like, let's say I talked to someone in 2018 because like I did some Kotaku reporting about Activision taking over at Blizzard and like some of the issues Blizzard was going through.

00:34:31   So I reached back out to some of those people and then re-interviewed some of those people for the book.

00:34:36   When you're doing the interviews, you're taking the notes, you have the transcripts.

00:34:40   How are you arranging and organizing, like categorizing this research so you can actually use it when you write?

00:34:49   I think you would be horrified at the answer to this question.

00:34:52   I don't know.

00:34:52   We'll find out.

00:34:53   I take all these notes in TextEdit, which is the built-in like Notepad app on my Mac.

00:35:00   And I keep them in a folder that is just a bunch of names of people and each of them is a TextEdit file.

00:35:07   And those are just transcripts of like my interviews with them.

00:35:10   And then I open new TextEdit files and sometimes we'll cut and paste little pieces to try to connect them.

00:35:16   Sometimes I'll have another TextEdit file that is like a loose outline and I'll be like, oh, okay, this person will go in this chapter.

00:35:22   This person will go in that chapter.

00:35:24   And then I kind of go from there.

00:35:26   And then when I'm writing, a lot of times what I'll do is just kind of loosely arrange events in chronological order.

00:35:32   And then I'll pull some of the quotes that I want to use, like some of the best quotes, build around those.

00:35:37   Or I don't know.

00:35:39   It's just a very messy process that I think anyone, if they watched me do it, would just be truly horrified.

00:35:44   I know a lot of writers use like all these fancy programs like Scrivener and all these other kind of productivity tools, organizational tools.

00:35:51   And once again, they would just be truly horrified at how haphazard my process is.

00:35:56   100% of the writing is happening in TextEdit.

00:35:59   No, no, no, no, no.

00:36:00   The writing itself I do on Google Drive.

00:36:02   Oh, okay.

00:36:03   Interesting.

00:36:04   Usually I'll start new Google Drive files for each chapter and then consolidate them all at the end.

00:36:11   And I assume that's for easy copywriting and stuff like that, right?

00:36:14   You can share them with people and stuff like that?

00:36:16   No, no, it's not for that.

00:36:17   It's just like I would never want to write an entire book and have it only be locally.

00:36:21   No, I want it in Google.

00:36:22   And also Google Drive is just a useful tool.

00:36:24   I keep tabs open while I'm working and just work on them that way.

00:36:29   But the notes and the transcripts and the interviews are in TextEdit.

00:36:32   Just all in TextEdit files.

00:36:34   Yeah.

00:36:34   I mean, you must be keeping a lot of it in your head.

00:36:36   No, I don't know.

00:36:37   My memory isn't that good.

00:36:38   Usually it's having everything written down is a lot more helpful.

00:36:41   And I always wind up like re-remembering stuff as I reread.

00:36:45   Something I do a lot is I'll reread every single transcript and every single kind of interview notes file multiple times and be like, okay.

00:36:53   Because as I'm going through the process and as I'm writing the story, sometimes having written parts of the story and then rereading an interview, I'll be like, oh, I forgot that person told me this.

00:37:06   This can go back in the story here.

00:37:09   So that, I find, is a good way to do it and to just be writing and then kind of incorporating notes as I go.

00:37:16   Yeah, I can imagine that, you know, someone tells you something in interview one and then somebody tells you something in interview five and you didn't know that in interview one they were referencing something from here and you can kind of start pasting it together that way.

00:37:28   Yeah, it's a very complicated process because then also from a fact-checking point of view, I generally don't want to include anything in a story unless I've corroborated it with multiple.

00:37:39   And in fact, I have had to cut out giant chunks of stories and anecdotes because like I heard it from one person, but nobody else remembers it or nobody else can corroborate it.

00:37:49   And so I'm not sure it's true, so I'm not going to include it.

00:37:52   And so throughout this process, something I'll also do is just note to myself like, okay, this piece of information was corroborated by this person, this person, and this person.

00:38:02   So that's the other kind of complication of it all, which again, is all part of the fun.

00:38:07   This part I really enjoy.

00:38:08   I really enjoy the reporting part of it.

00:38:11   Writing is a little less fun.

00:38:12   The writing of the books can be a grueling process, but the reporting, I love.

00:38:17   What makes it grueling?

00:38:19   Just the sheer amount of storytelling you have to do and sinew you have to build and dot connecting you have to do.

00:38:28   The way I do these books and the way I write books in general is I don't fictionalize anything.

00:38:33   I think that there's a lot of nonfiction out there that is a little bit more creative, I would say.

00:38:40   And sometimes it's like rigorously fact-based, but sometimes it's kind of author's interpretation of stuff.

00:38:47   My books are a little bit more straightforward, and then I'm not trying to make it seem like I was there.

00:38:53   I want it to be very clear what's true and what's not, and I don't make up old dialogue.

00:38:59   Every quote in all of my books is something that someone actually said to me, not something that I'm pretending I heard someone say in 1995 or whatever.

00:39:08   You're inferring the kind of things someone might say in an experience of which they're having.

00:39:12   Exactly, which is a different sort of writing.

00:39:15   People enjoy that type of book as well, but it's not my style of journalism.

00:39:20   And so as a result of that, it can be very laborious and grueling to go through the whole story and realize that, oh man, I'm missing this key piece of info.

00:39:31   What am I going to do about this?

00:39:32   How am I going to tie these pieces together?

00:39:34   How am I going to keep this story consistent?

00:39:36   How am I going to make sure that people remember who the characters are, who the people are, and keep track of them all?

00:39:42   And what's that going to look like?

00:39:44   And yeah, that can be a struggle.

00:39:47   But again, it's part of the fun.

00:39:49   If it wasn't challenging, I think I would just be super bored and not want to do it.

00:39:53   People have suggested to me over the years that I should do another Blood, Sweat, and Pixel style book where it's like a compilation of 10 development stories.

00:40:00   And I don't think I would ever do that again just because I wouldn't find it as challenging as doing another book that's just like a single story.

00:40:10   Which I just find way more satisfying and rewarding and challenging.

00:40:13   I'm glad Play Nice was your favorite of my books because it's the one I'm most proud of.

00:40:18   I mean, it's my most recent one.

00:40:19   So I guess that's inevitable.

00:40:20   But yeah, I think it's the best also.

00:40:22   It absolutely tickles the kind of thing that I like to read.

00:40:26   I don't know why, but I enjoy reading stories about people running businesses and like what can happen in those environments.

00:40:34   And Blizzard is such a chaotic company in its history.

00:40:40   Just telling its story.

00:40:42   All you need to do is tell its story correctly and it's entertaining.

00:40:46   You know, not every business is like that.

00:40:49   It's true.

00:40:50   I mean, one of the reasons that I struggled last year to figure out what I wanted to do next is because there aren't any other companies really as fascinating as Blizzard.

00:40:58   Or there are a few other companies as fascinating as Blizzard.

00:41:01   So like doing another story about like another big game company just seemed like it would be less interesting than the Blizzard story.

00:41:09   You've got so much in there and so many incredible games, so many fascinating people and wild stories and scandals.

00:41:16   And it's just so interesting.

00:41:19   Yeah, hard to get better than that than Blizzard.

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00:43:08   When you write a book, do you take time off your day job or do you try to do them concurrently?

00:43:14   Yeah, I mean, so I'm very fortunate in that Bloomberg for this last book, I was able to get book leave and take off for, I believe it was three months total, although I split it up over the course of a year.

00:43:25   I split it into two chunks.

00:43:27   Right.

00:43:27   So that was really great and much appreciated.

00:43:31   And yeah, that's when I did the bulk of the writing.

00:43:35   The reporting process, I mean, that's like, it might be an hour here, an hour there over the course of years.

00:43:40   So that I do just kind of on the side.

00:43:42   And then I also, I had to like definitely do some nights and weekends writing as well, but I don't mind doing it.

00:43:49   It's for me, it's for my own project.

00:43:51   So it's not like someone is forcing me to like work overtime or something like that.

00:43:56   But yeah, but the book leave was essential.

00:43:57   And I'm very grateful to work for a company that is so supportive of writers and allows us to do that sort of thing.

00:44:03   I can imagine, you know, from their perspective, it's the kind of thing that you offer to people which keeps them around, right?

00:44:09   Yeah, not just that.

00:44:11   It's also beneficial, I think, for like a news organization to have writers who are doing these big prestigious projects.

00:44:19   It's mutually beneficial, I think.

00:44:20   So, for example, we did a big excerpt from the book in, it's like a big Bloomberg feature in Business Week magazine.

00:44:27   And so there's a lot of just kind of like benefit that Bloomberg gets out of it too.

00:44:32   I want to jump back to your reporting a little bit.

00:44:34   So the reporting that you do and the stories that you cover, they have sometimes pretty big consequences, right?

00:44:42   So it can lead to big changes in the industry, whether that being personnel changes or things like crunch, right?

00:44:48   I know it's a thing that you've spoken about a lot in your time, and I think you've helped kind of change the narrative on that.

00:44:54   When you're reporting on stories, do you feel the weight of the industry?

00:44:59   No, I don't really think about that.

00:45:01   Because I actually don't really give myself that much credit for big changes.

00:45:05   What I do give myself credit for is kind of driving conversations around things.

00:45:11   And so I'll give you an example for that.

00:45:13   I mean, something I've seen a lot on the internet, which I appreciate, is like people being like,

00:45:17   after I've read Blood, Sweat and Pixels, I'll never call game developers lazy again, like that sort of thing.

00:45:23   People understanding a little bit more about what goes into these games and what it's like to work on games.

00:45:29   But like workplace changes, those come from workers.

00:45:32   And at the end of the day, if a company like Rockstar is changing its practices and trying to get better about mitigating crunch and overtime and trying to fix its bro culture and that sort of stuff, that is because the workers there demanded it.

00:45:48   And sometimes in cases like that, it's like workers will come to a reporter like me and talk about it publicly or talk about it anonymously to me and I'll share their stories and help make sure people know about it in the public.

00:46:00   But at the end of the day, it's the workers, it's the people who work at a company that are transforming it and speaking up and kind of talking about it internally and waging those wars internally.

00:46:10   Yeah, talking to you is one of the ways in which the change happens.

00:46:13   Yeah, it is.

00:46:14   And I don't even think it's the most effective way.

00:46:16   Like the most effective thing that public pressure can do is just kind of bring attention to something and get people talking about it more and certainly can provide pressure on a company to want to change their ways to avoid bad headlines

00:46:29   But to me, what I do is more about bringing people information and telling them stories and helping them understand this world a little bit more.

00:46:41   And that's the way I see my job.

00:46:43   The way I see my job is not like telling stories and writing articles and doing books to push for change.

00:46:49   Like I don't think that's what my job is.

00:46:52   My job is to do those things in order to bring information to readers and shine a light on problems for readers.

00:47:01   And if change happens as a result of that, I mean, that can certainly be a good thing.

00:47:06   But that's not my primary goal in telling any of these stories.

00:47:11   My primary goal is telling the stories because stories are important to be told.

00:47:15   Do you ever feel like you have to keep a kind of like emotional barrier?

00:47:20   Like at the moment, one of the big stories in video games is the amount of layoffs that are occurring.

00:47:26   And I'm sure that you're hearing from lots of people who have just been laid off and it's how you find out that layoffs are happening.

00:47:32   Do you have to maintain some level of distance to be able to report that stuff efficiently?

00:47:37   I feel like I've had to like inure myself, had to kill my emotions in order to be able to do it.

00:47:44   Yeah.

00:47:44   I mean, it's certainly tough hearing people's stories.

00:47:47   And what's heartbreaking isn't the layoff stories.

00:47:51   It's the stories from people who are just like have been looking for jobs for months or years and just haven't been able to find anything.

00:48:00   And now have to go and like work in retail or drive Ubers or like do something that they're really well overqualified for and have no experience doing.

00:48:10   And they're just like totally switch careers or totally just kind of, yeah, man, it's really rough.

00:48:15   That sort of thing is tough to hear about.

00:48:16   And yeah, I mean, I don't know.

00:48:18   I've been doing this for so long and heard so many sad and horrifying stories that I do think I've become a little bit numb to it.

00:48:25   Which I guess you have to be if you're just kind of trying to tell these stories, but it's rough.

00:48:30   It's a rough industry to cover.

00:48:32   But these days, what isn't right?

00:48:33   Like these days, everything is falling apart.

00:48:35   So games aren't alone.

00:48:37   Yeah.

00:48:37   If you're doing any kind of news coverage, it's all bleeding in.

00:48:40   I don't know if that is different to how things have been in the past, but it just feels like broader pressures are just pushing in every direction.

00:48:48   And it just affects everything.

00:48:49   Yeah.

00:48:50   And the scale is much bigger.

00:48:52   Like the games industry, I mean, my second book, Press Reset, was all about volatility in the games industry and layoffs and studio shutdowns.

00:48:57   So this has always been the case.

00:49:00   It's just that the numbers are much bigger now than they ever were, which is a little scary.

00:49:06   Yeah.

00:49:06   It's like tens to hundreds to now thousands.

00:49:10   I think at that point, like when we're recording this, I mean, Epic just laid off like a thousand people.

00:49:16   Yeah.

00:49:17   I mean, it's tens of thousands of people.

00:49:18   The estimates that I've seen are some like 45,000 job cuts over the last three years or so.

00:49:25   Yes.

00:49:25   You fill a stadium full of people.

00:49:27   Where do they go?

00:49:28   Like it's an unbelievable thing to try and get your head around.

00:49:30   Yeah.

00:49:31   And then for the people who don't get laid off, there's survivor's guilt and having to do more with less.

00:49:36   And yeah, it's just bad news all around.

00:49:38   It's really been bleak.

00:49:40   I mean, if there's good news, it's that the games are better than ever and there are more games, more cool games every single year.

00:49:47   And yeah, at least there's that to kind of like hang on to.

00:49:50   It's like games are bigger than ever, which is why the bad stuff and the good stuff is bigger than ever.

00:49:55   Right.

00:49:55   Yeah, that's true.

00:49:56   Yeah.

00:49:57   More people are playing than ever before.

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00:51:33   How do companies treat you and PR teams treat you?

00:51:38   Do you have different kinds of relationships with different kinds of companies?

00:51:42   Yeah.

00:51:42   Because, you know, I want to make it clear, right?

00:51:44   Like, I feel like I'm trying to frame you and just, you're just like a grim reaper.

00:51:47   But you will often write wonderful features with companies.

00:51:51   Like, thinking about, like, the Hollow Knight developers, right?

00:51:54   You wrote a wonderful feature with them on the eve of their game coming out.

00:51:57   So, do you have different kinds of relationships with different kinds of companies?

00:52:01   Yeah.

00:52:01   Oh, absolutely.

00:52:02   Yeah.

00:52:03   Some PR people can't stand me.

00:52:05   Other people I have very good working relationships with.

00:52:08   Yeah.

00:52:08   It really depends on the company and my history with them and the individual people who are working there.

00:52:14   Yeah.

00:52:14   100%.

00:52:15   It's very different.

00:52:16   And some are more professional than others, that's for sure.

00:52:19   Some consumers are more professional than others.

00:52:21   Yeah.

00:52:21   I guess there are some people who can take the licks and understand the importance of the outlet where maybe others can't.

00:52:29   And it also, my relationships with these people also changes quite a lot.

00:52:33   Like, sometimes, some years I'll be on bad terms with the company and then the next year I'll reach out to them and be like,

00:52:39   Hey, let's get a coffee and try to talk about this and hopefully repair some things.

00:52:43   So, it really, it goes back and forth.

00:52:45   Something I found also is that, like, I think that comes people, one thing that hopefully they appreciate about me is that I'm never going to surprise them.

00:52:53   I believe very strongly in, like, no surprises journalism.

00:52:56   So, I'm always going to tell them exactly what I'm going to write about their company and their people.

00:53:02   And I always try to give them as much time as possible to respond and to provide comment and maybe get me an interview or maybe give me background information and context that I didn't have before.

00:53:12   Help me fact check stuff.

00:53:14   Tell me if I'm getting something wrong.

00:53:16   And I think the comms people who are, like, willing to work with me there, I think they appreciate that.

00:53:21   And it leads to a much healthier working relationship.

00:53:24   In a previous interview I did with Casey Newton at Platformer, Casey mentioned this, too.

00:53:29   I just feel like maybe it's something I hadn't really thought of before.

00:53:33   But you can imagine a scenario where that is making a marketing or communications person's life so much easier because they now can start planning for the thing that's about to happen to them, whether they want it to happen or not.

00:53:46   Right?

00:53:47   Like, I now know that this story is going to be in Bloomberg rather than me waking up to my boss saying, how the hell did this story get in Bloomberg?

00:53:54   Yeah, and nobody at Bloomberg would ever publish a story without having the company involved at the time.

00:53:58   Like, no professional journalist would ever do this.

00:54:01   Every reputable journalism outlet will always give people their writing about ample opportunity to respond and comment.

00:54:09   Sometimes it's less time than we would like just because things move so quickly.

00:54:12   But we're always going to reach out for comment.

00:54:16   Also, the worst comes people that I've dealt with, I'll send them a request for comment and they'll just ignore it.

00:54:20   The best people, they'll say, hey, let me give you a call and then they'll talk it through with me and I'll explain to them exactly what I'm writing.

00:54:26   And maybe they won't be able to give me a comment, but maybe they'll be like, look, this thing is wrong and this thing you shouldn't do because this is YNC and we'll go back and forth.

00:54:36   And maybe not everything I print will be exactly what they like, but it'll help us both for it to be accurate.

00:54:43   And also, they'll at least have an opportunity to say their piece to me.

00:54:48   And then sometimes, I mean, to this day, we publish things that like comms people disagree with the accuracy on and we stand by them and there's just still back and forth.

00:54:57   So it really depends on the company and the situation and the story.

00:55:00   And yeah, like at given times, like, I don't want to get into specific companies, but like, if you had asked me this time last year, there's one company that I had a much more adversarial relationship with.

00:55:11   But over the last year, I've been like repairing that and talking to them and hopefully building it back up.

00:55:18   And now I think we're in a very good place.

00:55:20   So yeah, it's a lot of back and forth.

00:55:22   And the important thing for me is that like, I'm never going to let these relationships affect how I cover the companies and what I choose to cover or not.

00:55:31   So like, I think that's part of what makes it always go back and forth, right?

00:55:35   Is that like, I might have a good relationship with the PR people at company X, but that's not going to stop me from writing something that is really going to pit them off.

00:55:44   And then they'll be mad at me for another few months until I reach back out and be like, hey, like, can you get over this?

00:55:50   Let's talk about this possible situation.

00:55:52   Also, what I'm trying to do, like you mentioned before, despite a lot of what I do being kind of negative aspects of the industry, I'm also always reaching out to these companies and be like, hey, I want to interview your developer about their cool new game.

00:56:05   There are a lot of stories out there that aren't just negative stories.

00:56:08   And a lot of them I wind up putting in my weekly column that just might be like, hey, this developer has a new game coming out from Take-Two or EA or Ubisoft or whatever.

00:56:17   And here's their story.

00:56:18   And here's why it's interesting.

00:56:19   And it doesn't necessarily have to be this like doom and gloom story for me to find it intriguing and want to write about it.

00:56:27   So I think comms people hopefully appreciate that as well.

00:56:29   I have a lot of respect for people like you who can deal with that.

00:56:34   I would struggle with the personal business relationships.

00:56:39   I would find that really difficult to navigate.

00:56:42   What part of it would you struggle with?

00:56:44   I think I would struggle with, say, somebody that I get on with pretty well, making their life harder.

00:56:49   Got it.

00:56:51   I think that would be something that I would find complicated to manage.

00:56:55   Yeah, it's definitely complicated.

00:56:57   I mean, like I see all of these as more professional relationships than personal relationships, which I think helps me keep a healthy distance.

00:57:07   Like in my personal life, most of the people that I see on a regular basis and hang out with a regular basis are not really related to the video game world.

00:57:16   So my personal life is not really intertwined with my professional life.

00:57:21   And so I am able to keep a little bit of distance there.

00:57:24   And yeah, I mean, I think that like the best PR people understand the job and they understand that like a good reporter is not going to be just kind of holding things back just because it makes their lives harder.

00:57:40   And I do feel bad.

00:57:40   I often call someone up and be like, I'm sorry that this is making your life harder, but like this is what I got to do.

00:57:46   So that's the job.

00:57:48   And I've gotten used to it over the years.

00:57:50   I mean, I expect it's for everybody.

00:57:51   It's the good and the bad.

00:57:52   There are times where you will be writing about massive successes that they're having and call them and they'll give you quotes, huge sales numbers and everyone loves it.

00:58:01   Right.

00:58:01   And then sometimes it's not like that.

00:58:03   And that's just the way that the job is.

00:58:05   That's just how it goes.

00:58:06   Yeah.

00:58:06   And like sometimes, I mean, there have been times over the last decade and a half that I've been covering the video game industry where like I've had to completely like burn a relationship and lose somebody because I wrote something that they didn't like, which is always sad and always bums me out.

00:58:21   But to me, as long as it's for the right reasons, it's something that I'm willing to do.

00:58:27   And it sucks, but it's part of the job.

00:58:30   I don't know.

00:58:30   And it happens to a lot of people, right?

00:58:32   Like, I mean, just in a hypothetical situation, if you're friends with someone and they're accused on the internet of like sexual harassment or something, like it's credible accusations.

00:58:40   What do you do with that relationship?

00:58:42   And then for someone like me or a journalist, it's taken one step further where it's like, what if you're friends with someone or friendly with someone or have like an ongoing like personal relationship with someone and they're accused of something and then you have to write about it.

00:58:54   So then you have to reach out to them and be like, look, like I need comment on this, et cetera, et cetera.

00:58:59   So that can happen too.

00:59:00   And yeah, it's definitely complicated.

00:59:01   What do you do in a scenario like that?

00:59:04   Like, what do you do?

00:59:05   For me, it depends how close in this hypothetical situation.

00:59:09   If it was someone I was really close to, I just would recuse myself and be like, I can't write about this person.

00:59:14   I'm too close to them.

00:59:14   If it's someone who I've just been friendly with, maybe had a couple of dinners with them here or there, or like seeing them at events and stuff like that, then I would probably be like, hey, sorry, I have to write this about you.

00:59:26   Do you want to give me your side of the story?

00:59:28   I want to hear what you have to say.

00:59:30   Give me your perspective and then kind of go from there.

00:59:33   And oftentimes, if that were to happen, it would almost certainly torture a relationship, but it is what it is.

00:59:38   That's the job, right?

00:59:40   And I mean, like, then there's the moral aspect of the complicated feelings of being like, this person was accused of something horrible.

00:59:47   Like, do I really still want to be friends with them if I believe in that accusation?

00:59:51   And like, what does that look like?

00:59:52   So it's pretty messy.

00:59:53   So Jason, I want to give you the opportunity if there's anything you want to promote.

00:59:56   You've mentioned your weekly column a few times.

00:59:58   Like, are you working on anything else that you're excited about right now?

01:00:01   Well, if you enjoy listening to my voice, you will enjoy it even more when my two much smarter co-hosts, Kurt Campbellton and Maddie Myers, are talking with me on the TripleClick podcast.

01:00:12   So people should go check that out.

01:00:14   And yeah, you can find my work at Bloomberg.

01:00:16   There's a paywall on Bloomberg, but I always post gift links to my articles to bypass the paywall on my Blue Sky and on my LinkedIn account.

01:00:25   So you can find those there.

01:00:26   Yeah, that's where to find me.

01:00:28   And then, of course, Play Nice has been in stores for a little while now.

01:00:31   Since, was it, October 2024.

01:00:33   So it's showing its age at this point.

01:00:35   I don't have any new books to promote just yet.

01:00:37   But keep an eye out because one day there will be.

01:00:40   It'll be a minute.

01:00:41   It'll give it a couple of years.

01:00:42   I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Jason Schreier.

01:00:46   I've been a fan of his work for years now.

01:00:49   Like, he really has made such a massive impact on an industry that I really care about.

01:00:54   And so it was such a thrill to get to talk to him.

01:00:56   I want to thank you so much for listening, as I always do.

01:00:59   But it does mean a lot to me.

01:01:01   I'll be back again next time.

01:01:03   Until then, bye-bye.