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The Talk Show

451: ‘Taking Drugs to Get Fat’, With John Moltz

 

00:00:00   John, we were going to record earlier, but you told me you had to go out and buy a bunch of Apple TV 4Ks.

00:00:05   The timing seems good, right? There aren't any lines. I'll say that.

00:00:13   You go to the Apple store to buy an Apple TV 4K, front of the line.

00:00:18   You walk right up, right up to the counter.

00:00:21   I don't know how many times you've been on the show and we have played the game, spend Tim Cook's money.

00:00:30   So who better to have on the show, under the gun, while Tim Cook is still on the job, while we can speculate on spending Tim Cook's money.

00:00:41   And when the news had broke the week before, where he said the prices were going to go up, we were recording the rebound.

00:00:48   And I thought about making a joke about them increasing prices on the Apple TV, just because it seemed like it would be so ridiculous.

00:00:56   And then come to see the price increases and it's the one with the largest percentage price increase.

00:01:02   It's by far crazy making.

00:01:04   Yeah.

00:01:05   I did.

00:01:08   I wrote about it because it really it's like we didn't know what to expect.

00:01:13   It is.

00:01:13   It's like he said, hey, this is bad.

00:01:16   We're going to have to increase prices.

00:01:18   And then that was a Thursday.

00:01:19   And then the Friday came and I thought, who knows, that mean tomorrow they'll give the interview on a Thursday.

00:01:24   And then the next day they do it.

00:01:26   It's a Friday came and went.

00:01:28   They didn't do it.

00:01:29   And then the next week came and they hadn't done it.

00:01:33   And it's like, I don't know, maybe they're just going to wait for new products.

00:01:37   I think that was possible that they would do something like that.

00:01:41   And they kind of did because they did not increase the prices on the iPhone.

00:01:47   And that's apparently one of their more popular products.

00:01:49   I think here I did.

00:01:51   So three big ones.

00:01:52   It did.

00:01:53   Maybe the three most popular.

00:01:55   I don't even know.

00:01:56   But they've got to be close.

00:01:57   iPhone, clearly most popular.

00:01:58   Apple Watch, very popular.

00:02:00   And AirPods, which are obviously to some degree popular, did not get price increases.

00:02:06   And so another, like the base Mac Mini, the current base Mac Mini did not get increased, right?

00:02:11   Well, sort of.

00:02:14   I mean, it's not really.

00:02:15   It's not the long-term Mac, base Mac Mini, but.

00:02:18   They had played.

00:02:19   What was the deal?

00:02:20   So they took away the 250.

00:02:22   They took away.

00:02:24   Oh, I missed that one.

00:02:24   That one did go up.

00:02:25   I missed that.

00:02:26   Yeah.

00:02:27   Months ago, they took away the 256 gig config.

00:02:30   They just took it away.

00:02:31   And that was the one that started at 600 bucks.

00:02:33   So then it started at 800 bucks.

00:02:36   And now it still starts at 800 bucks, but it's back to being 256 gigabytes as storage.

00:02:42   Yeah.

00:02:43   I thought it was just the higher end one.

00:02:44   No.

00:02:46   For some reason, I don't know why.

00:02:49   I guess because at some level, they just wanted to increase the base price so that they took it away.

00:02:54   And we can talk about that in a minute, too, that it's actually the highest end configs that they're still not selling for certain things.

00:03:01   But then on Thursday of this last week, we're recording over the weekend.

00:03:05   Thursday is when Apple was, I don't know what you want to call it, P-Day, Price Day.

00:03:10   Maybe workshop that.

00:03:12   Yeah.

00:03:12   M-Day, Margins Day.

00:03:17   Yeah, right.

00:03:18   Celebrating Margins Day.

00:03:20   It's celebrating Margins Day.

00:03:23   They announced, or they didn't announce, they just took the store down for a while.

00:03:28   It's lovely that they still have to take the store down to make changes, even if only briefly.

00:03:33   I feel like that's a lost tradition.

00:03:35   They used to have to take the store down for like three hours.

00:03:38   Yeah.

00:03:39   Back in the day.

00:03:40   Store comes back up.

00:03:42   Prices are increased and the poor Apple TV took the brunt of it with 54% increase for the 64 gig one and a 67% increase for the 128 config that has Ethernet and thread networking.

00:04:01   And when I mentioned it at first, I only mentioned an Ethernet and several readers said that the reason they bought it was specifically for the thread stuff.

00:04:11   Because you don't really need storage.

00:04:13   I don't know.

00:04:14   I don't have mine plugged into Ethernet.

00:04:16   But thread is something that is unique.

00:04:18   And that's a weird, it was always weird that thread was only in the high end one.

00:04:21   But anyway, it's $250 now, up from $150.

00:04:24   And my speculation is that for this one, because it's widely rumored, A, the current hardware comes from, I think the dates are right, 22?

00:04:35   Yeah.

00:04:36   So it's four-year-old hardware with the A15 Bionic chip, which is no longer all that Bionic.

00:04:45   It's about as Bionic as Lee Majors is these days.

00:04:48   Lee Majors, yeah.

00:04:50   That's from the year before with the iPhones 13, I think.

00:04:55   But, you know, a fairly old chip, not really suited to the current Apple A or Apple Intelligence.

00:05:01   So they're widely rumored, in addition to just the age, that new hardware is coming.

00:05:06   So my speculation is basically that these prices are for the new hardware.

00:05:10   And they're putting them in place now with the old hardware so that when they announce the new hardware, they could have two tiers.

00:05:16   These are the prices, and they didn't go up.

00:05:19   Yeah.

00:05:20   We're keeping the prices the same.

00:05:23   Right.

00:05:24   In these troubled times.

00:05:26   But I'm just feeling bad for people who are, like, just moving over the summer, you know, like, oh, I'll pick up a new Apple TV over the summer.

00:05:35   Right.

00:05:36   And a lot of these products, I mean, with the HomePod Mini as well, like things that we've been waiting for for a while that have been sort of stalled by, you know, enhanced Siri delays.

00:05:47   And now to find out that they're going to be significantly more expensive is, I mean, you know, we know why.

00:05:54   It's not arbitrary, exactly.

00:05:57   So it's not great.

00:06:00   So what is the what?

00:06:01   Is it, as Bernie Sanders says, that Tim Cook is greedy?

00:06:04   Well, I think Tim Cook's a little greedy.

00:06:07   Oh, yeah, definitely.

00:06:10   But obviously, yeah, I mean, they weathered the price increases on SSDs and RAM for a lot longer than most of their competition, but weren't able to do it forever.

00:06:19   Yeah.

00:06:20   So at least it's all going for a good cause, which is AI server farms.

00:06:24   It's like, I think it's fine to be angry that the prices have jumped up like this, right?

00:06:32   It is not the natural course of inflation for prices to just jump 20, 25, 30 percent, or in the case of Apple TV, 50 to 67 percent at once, right?

00:06:47   That's sort of out of the ordinary, you know, so it's okay to be angry, right?

00:06:52   And I think a rational direction for anger is at the irrational exuberance of the AI data center build out, which I think isn't, from my perspective, about being mad at AI in general, but at what's clearly a bubble to some extent.

00:07:11   To me, it's only a question of how big is the bubble.

00:07:15   Clearly, the spending is not commensurate with any kind of actual reasonable projection of revenue that it's going to earn.

00:07:23   But the money to buy the data centers and the computers that go in them, which are more RAM hungry than any other computers anybody's buying for anything else.

00:07:34   And I guess, to some extent, needs massive amounts of SSD storage, too.

00:07:39   So if you're angry at the bubble, because the bubble has now had effects that have trickled all the way down to just buying a new MacBook Air for your kid who's going off to college in August or September,

00:07:54   and you unfortunately didn't buy the MacBook Air yet, or MacBook Neo, right?

00:07:59   Which was only from March, right?

00:08:01   It's only four months old.

00:08:03   What?

00:08:03   April, May, June, or three months old?

00:08:05   Yeah, three.

00:08:06   Three to four months old.

00:08:08   And they've already had to raise the price.

00:08:10   And the price, it's only $100.

00:08:11   It's only, what is that, 16% to 20%.

00:08:16   It's in line with the others, but it's no longer so charmingly inexpensive, right?

00:08:22   Right.

00:08:23   Especially at the education pricing, right?

00:08:25   At education pricing, the base model goes from $500 to $600, and that's a 20% increase.

00:08:30   Yeah, and there were reports of the popularity of the Neo indicating that maybe they weren't going to be able to get all the parts,

00:08:39   you know, because a lot of the chips were binned and stuff like that.

00:08:41   They weren't necessarily going to be able to keep producing it at the low cost that they had announced it at simply because they were selling too many of them.

00:08:50   Yeah, I actually think in hindsight, I think that's sort of misplaced, right?

00:08:54   Because that speculation was all about the A-18 chip.

00:08:58   Yeah.

00:08:59   Right?

00:08:59   Is it A-18 or A-17?

00:09:01   Maybe it's, I don't know, I get them mixed up.

00:09:04   Whichever one it is.

00:09:05   Whatever it takes.

00:09:05   From last year's phone.

00:09:07   I think it's the A-18 chip from last year.

00:09:09   And there was speculation that, because they were using the binned ones with only five GPUs for the low-end model,

00:09:17   and that, hey, they saved them all up from a year's worth of iPhones, and this thing was so popular,

00:09:22   they were running out of them, and they're going to have to, like, spin up production on a year-old chip,

00:09:29   and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:09:30   I think if you could get, like, Tim Cook or turn us over a beer and be like, hey, what's really going on with the MacBook Neo?

00:09:38   They would be like, I wish our problem was A-18 chips.

00:09:41   Right?

00:09:42   That is not the problem.

00:09:44   I feel like they could make as many A-18 chips as they want.

00:09:47   It's the frickin' RAM and the SSDs.

00:09:50   Yeah.

00:09:50   Well, certainly.

00:09:51   I think it's, yeah.

00:09:52   I mean, obviously, this price increase is reflective of that and not the chips, for sure.

00:09:56   Right.

00:09:57   I don't think the chip thing was ever going to lead to a price increase in the Neo.

00:10:00   And I don't think it was going to, there were people saying, well, maybe they'll get rid of the low-end model and only sell the high-end model or something like that.

00:10:07   Ah.

00:10:08   I don't think that's the case.

00:10:09   I think they would just start putting A-18 chips in software, disable one of the GPUs, and that's it.

00:10:15   And nobody knows, you know.

00:10:16   Yeah.

00:10:17   What would you have done with the Apple TV?

00:10:19   I can see the argument, right?

00:10:21   I do.

00:10:22   I, you know, like.

00:10:24   You could stop selling it.

00:10:25   I mean, that's one thing you could do.

00:10:27   Right.

00:10:28   But is that the right move?

00:10:29   I don't know.

00:10:30   From their perspective, why would you do that?

00:10:32   I mean, if you can sell it to people for 250 bucks or whatever, then go ahead and take their money.

00:10:36   I wouldn't buy it at that price.

00:10:39   And they've done stuff like that before.

00:10:41   You know, they kept selling it.

00:10:42   Was it the, what was the base, the cheap Apple watch for a long time?

00:10:47   I can't remember if it was the three or the five.

00:10:49   I think it was.

00:10:50   Yeah.

00:10:51   But they sold that way, way past its expiration date.

00:10:55   Right.

00:10:56   I mean, that they really should not have done, I don't think.

00:10:59   In this case, the weird thing is like, I mean, I do want a new one, of course.

00:11:04   And I, like, for instance, I just got a new TV and I hooked up the old Apple TV to it.

00:11:09   And I happen to have, unfortunately, I still have three Apple TV in the house.

00:11:12   And I can, I, it's still, it still works out.

00:11:15   I have one for every room that I need one in, need a TV in.

00:11:18   And that's great.

00:11:20   But eventually I'm going to want a new one.

00:11:22   And I'm going to buy one, even though I'm not going to buy the top end, but even with

00:11:28   this price increase, it's the kind of television watching experience that I want.

00:11:32   I mean, it's my preferred television watching experience.

00:11:34   I never hook up my TVs to the internet and I'm not going to be suddenly using the TV's

00:11:39   interface to go to Apple TV plus, well, not TV plus, whatever it's called now or anything

00:11:46   else.

00:11:46   Cause I want to go through the Apple TV to do that stuff.

00:11:50   All right.

00:11:52   I guess take a step back and on, in the game of play Tim Cook's money there, there's, and

00:11:57   writing to some daring fireball readers who've emailed me, who seem a little angry about Apple

00:12:04   raising the prices and this argument that they could have just eaten it, that their margins

00:12:09   are healthy enough.

00:12:09   They could take the hit.

00:12:10   I think back to, and I don't know if this is still true with WebKit, but for years in the

00:12:16   early days of WebKit, and it came out publicly somehow people on, I guess, cause it's open

00:12:21   source that it's unlike a lot of Apple projects, they could talk about their engineering practices,

00:12:26   but it was often repeated that in the WebKit and Safari team, they had a hard rule that no

00:12:34   engineer could check in any change to the team's repository for either WebKit, the engine or

00:12:41   Safari overall.

00:12:42   If checking it in made any of the existing tests run slower, you couldn't check in anything

00:12:49   that made Safari or WebKit slower.

00:12:51   And the idea was that it was informed by the past experience that the leaders on the team

00:12:56   had at Mozilla and other places where they'd worked on browsers.

00:13:01   And I think anybody who's worked on software in general, but browsers as an engine that

00:13:08   things are built on top of performance is important and was just known that you'd be

00:13:12   like, well, let me check this in.

00:13:14   I know that this makes something slower, but we'll fix that later.

00:13:19   But let's check this in now.

00:13:20   Cause it works completely.

00:13:22   And yes, it sounds reasonable that yes, if it made something slower, every single page

00:13:37   loads is 10% slower.

00:13:39   We'll fix that eventually.

00:13:40   Well, it ends up eventually sometimes doesn't come for some of those features.

00:13:44   And Safari had in WebKit put in a policy that you could just, you've got to make, you've

00:13:50   got to make it as fast or faster would be great, but you've got to keep all tests running as

00:13:55   fast as they did before, before you check in a change.

00:13:57   And Safari has always been a pretty fast browser.

00:14:00   I think that's my way of saying, I think Apple and Tim Cook looks at margins the same way.

00:14:07   And that's who the company is, right?

00:14:09   It's not a surprise.

00:14:10   That's one of the hallmarks of the way they run their finances.

00:14:12   And it, it's something that gets them investors and it's, it's in their DNA.

00:14:19   I think that's what this means for people.

00:14:21   And it's a pain, but you have to slow down your purchasing.

00:14:24   You don't have to go out and buy or, or, or you have to like move your purchasing down.

00:14:29   I mean, I have a iPhone 17 and I'm probably going to take a look at the, the E line the next

00:14:36   time I go to purchase an iPhone and running a pro then maybe think about not buying a

00:14:42   pro it's, it is the unfortunate situation that we're in kind of, and, and, you know, they're

00:14:51   not just going to lower margins on their own.

00:14:52   No, I do not think so.

00:14:55   And I really do think that the, Hey, we never really let margins compress and with the thought

00:15:03   of, Oh, we'll get them back later, right?

00:15:06   Oh, this is a temporary crisis in Ram pricing.

00:15:09   Let's take the hit on margins for the remainder of the year and come 2027, we'll fix them.

00:15:15   I think that sounds good.

00:15:18   It's, it's certainly sounds possible.

00:15:20   I think anybody up to Tim Cook would say that is possible, but if your rule is we don't do

00:15:26   things that take a significant hit on margins, then your margins don't take a significant

00:15:31   hit ever, right?

00:15:32   If that's your rule for WebKit, WebKit never gets slower.

00:15:35   There's always a trade-off and the trade-off is, well, then maybe your project that has

00:15:41   a rule that you can never check in a new feature or bug fix that makes tests slower means that

00:15:47   you check in new features at a slower pace than other engines.

00:15:51   And if you're just looking at a list of support for features, yours is going to be behind.

00:15:56   And maybe that explains partially why Safari often remains behind Chrome in terms of leading

00:16:03   ed support for new web standards.

00:16:04   I don't know.

00:16:05   There's a trade-off.

00:16:06   You know, it's not free.

00:16:08   It's not like, Oh, why doesn't everybody do that?

00:16:10   It's because obviously it's easier to check in new features if you are allowed to check in

00:16:16   new features and optimize them later.

00:16:18   And it certainly would go over better with customers to take the hit on margins and eat

00:16:24   them and not raise the prices of the consumer products and figure you'll fix them later.

00:16:29   But if you raise prices, your margins don't take a hit.

00:16:32   And what's the trade-off?

00:16:34   The trade-off is obviously it's going to, it has to.

00:16:38   I mean, this is, again, econ 101.

00:16:40   These higher prices will adversely affect demand for products.

00:16:46   I mean, they should.

00:16:48   I mean, I hope they do.

00:16:50   I hope they do.

00:16:51   Because I hope people don't just run out and just buy them blindly anyway.

00:16:54   But I mean, I will say that we've also had the conversation over the past few years based,

00:17:02   thanks to Apple Silicon, about the price performance ratio that we've been getting over the past

00:17:10   five, six years, six years, right?

00:17:13   Yeah, end of 2020.

00:17:15   And to a certain degree, we have, as Mac users, have really benefited from that over those

00:17:22   years because I had an M1 Air that was really working fine.

00:17:29   I could have kept that machine.

00:17:30   But last year, the M4s came out and I was like, okay, I've had this machine for five years.

00:17:36   Now I think I can rationalize going and getting a new one.

00:17:40   And I'm glad I did now, obviously.

00:17:42   But that's longer than is usual, I think, to hold onto a machine that really was not experiencing

00:17:50   any significant performance issues whatsoever.

00:17:53   And I still have it and I still run the beta on it right now.

00:17:57   And if I had to use that machine right now, other than the smaller hard drive, it would

00:18:03   be perfectly fine.

00:18:05   That's a six-year-old machine.

00:18:07   The Mac OS 27 Golden Gate beta, you're saying?

00:18:10   Yeah.

00:18:10   Yeah.

00:18:11   Yeah.

00:18:12   I wrote about this, at least at the bottom of my post.

00:18:15   But I did.

00:18:16   I mean, at a personal level, my main machine is still an M1 Max MacBook Pro from 2021.

00:18:25   And I bought, it is called the M1 Max chip, but I bought the maxed out configuration.

00:18:32   I don't think I got the biggest SSD because I only got a four-terabyte SSD, but maybe that

00:18:38   was the biggest one at the time.

00:18:39   I forget.

00:18:39   But I definitely maxed out the RAM.

00:18:42   I got 64 gigs of RAM, which is the most RAM that a MacBook Pro could get in the M1 generation.

00:18:49   And it was very, I guess, I think, the most expensive MacBook I've ever bought.

00:18:55   Maybe the most expensive Mac I ever bought.

00:18:57   But, and it still is my day-to-day machine.

00:18:59   It is still very fast.

00:19:00   It felt very good when I tested the M4 MacBook Pro review unit, which I guess was over a year

00:19:10   ago.

00:19:11   And I really liked the nanotexture on the, I love nanotexture.

00:19:17   I love it on my studio display, which I own.

00:19:19   And I loved it on the MacBook Pro screen.

00:19:21   And I liked the darker aluminum.

00:19:24   I liked everything about it.

00:19:25   And I thought, oh, I'm going to buy one of these, aren't I?

00:19:27   And then I finished a month of using it as my review unit and went back to my personal

00:19:32   M1 from 2021 and literally did not feel anything get slower.

00:19:38   And that, to me, as I've often said, as a reviewer, it's when I go back from the, I get the new

00:19:43   one and I go, oh, this is faster, I think.

00:19:45   And it's like, oh, it's faster, I think.

00:19:47   And then I go back to my old thing and I'm like, oh, that other one is faster because this

00:19:51   feels slow.

00:19:51   Right.

00:19:52   Oh, yeah.

00:19:53   I went back to my 2021 M1 Max MacBook Pro and nothing felt anything any slower.

00:20:00   Nothing I do with a computer anymore has hit the things that have improved.

00:20:06   I mean, maybe a little.

00:20:08   I'm sure the chips, you know, it's going from M1 to M4.

00:20:11   But I was like, I cannot justify spending $7,000 or $8,000 or whatever, $6,000 or $7,000

00:20:16   on a new one just for nanotexture.

00:20:19   And then I ended up last year, when I don't use my MacBook as a MacBook, I use it with the

00:20:25   lid closed at my desk with the studio display, which is nanotexture.

00:20:29   And then for various personal reasons, wound up working out of my house more days last year

00:20:35   than the last probably 10 years combined in very, very sunny rooms with glare.

00:20:41   And every day I was like, God damn it.

00:20:44   I should have bought that M4 with nanotexture.

00:20:46   God damn it.

00:20:47   This was the I should have.

00:20:48   I should have.

00:20:50   I should have.

00:20:50   And now anyway, now I'm looking at the prices of most most RAM you can put in a MacBook Pro.

00:20:58   And I'm like, oh, I'm really stupid.

00:21:00   I really, I have never screwed up anything in my life like not buying an M4 MacBook Pro a year ago

00:21:10   with the max RAM because the configuration that I want with the 100, because there's no point to me.

00:21:17   RAM is the thing that I want because I keep an ungodly number of tabs open at all times.

00:21:23   And they consume lots of RAM.

00:21:25   And I just, I love it.

00:21:27   I love just never worrying about it.

00:21:29   And I've got, I seriously have like 900 tabs open in Safari, right?

00:21:33   And I don't care.

00:21:34   It doesn't matter.

00:21:35   But what I want is I want the 128 gigabytes because I already have 64.

00:21:41   So I don't want to buy a new machine with only 64.

00:21:44   And to get it, it would cost like just a hair under $10,000.

00:21:48   And it used to cost $7,000.

00:21:52   And I remember when I thought $7,000 seemed like an awful lot of money.

00:21:56   Sure.

00:21:57   It is an awful lot of money.

00:21:59   And I know that we're old, John.

00:22:02   I know it.

00:22:03   But I hear $10,000 and I don't care what it is.

00:22:07   If you tell me it costs $10,000, I think it better be a car.

00:22:11   Well, yeah.

00:22:12   And you can't get a car for that.

00:22:13   Right.

00:22:14   Exactly.

00:22:14   That's exactly where it shows how old I am.

00:22:16   Because if I bought a car for $10,000, I'd be lucky if it got all the way home.

00:22:20   Yeah.

00:22:21   Yeah.

00:22:21   Yeah.

00:22:23   And I want to be clear that I'm not happy about it.

00:22:27   And I don't think – no one should be thanking Tim Cook for anything.

00:22:32   I just think this is the company that we are working with.

00:22:35   And so, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

00:22:37   Them maintaining margins should not be surprising to anybody in particular.

00:22:41   And also, I don't – I mean, Bernie Sanders' comment is like just fire branding stuff.

00:22:48   He's stating capitalism is bad.

00:22:50   I think capitalism is bad, honestly.

00:22:52   I wish he was the – I'd much rather have him be the president for sure.

00:22:56   There's no question about that.

00:22:57   But at the same time, I don't think that that gets anybody anywhere because –

00:23:01   I would rather have –

00:23:02   I would rather talk about their taxes and whether or not they're paying their taxes.

00:23:06   I'd rather have a sleeve of McDonald's french fries be president.

00:23:08   Well, I love McDonald's french fries, so –

00:23:13   Everybody would be happier.

00:23:15   We would have – certainly have better decisions being made.

00:23:18   But, yeah, it's – you know, I get why the fire brand is there, but I had to call it out.

00:23:25   I do think it's misplaced.

00:23:27   I – you know, it was – everything's going out.

00:23:30   I mean, the poor Steam machine, right, from Valve.

00:23:34   Really, really innovative, clever, and adorable little PC-like game console in a little six-inch cube.

00:23:44   Somewhere Steve Jobs is smiling.

00:23:46   Little black, adorable cube.

00:23:48   The poor thing costs over $1,000, and it doesn't come with a controller.

00:23:53   That really – that really sounds like something from Apple.

00:23:57   It doesn't come with a controller.

00:24:00   It's like when you buy a studio display and they're like – or the XDR and they're like – and the stand is $1,000.

00:24:07   Yeah, right.

00:24:07   Yeah, the stand is $1,000.

00:24:08   Yeah.

00:24:09   Or the wheels.

00:24:10   Yeah, the wheels.

00:24:11   Yeah.

00:24:13   What did I compare – I compared something to the wheels this week.

00:24:16   My God, what was it?

00:24:18   Oh, then when I said that the configuration that I want for a MacBook Pro went up in price by $2,800.

00:24:25   And for that price, one used to be able to buy 16 spare wheels for the late, great Mac Pro.

00:24:32   Those were the days.

00:24:35   Oh, those were the days when we used to – the only thing to laugh about with the pricing was the wheels for the Mac Pro.

00:24:43   And the arms for the Pro Display XDR.

00:24:46   Yep.

00:24:46   It's almost a shame that they got rid of the Mac Pro because it would have been interesting to see how much that – the high-end configure that would have gone up.

00:24:53   But this is – I mean, it's a weird – I mean, the swing in percentages, though, does seem strange.

00:25:02   In what way?

00:25:04   I mean, like –

00:25:04   Somewhat.

00:25:05   Well, I guess the fact – so I guess the SSDs in the Apple TV make up a large portion of the cost of the thing?

00:25:14   I mean, is that –

00:25:14   I think the only – I think the only explanation for the Apple TVs is that they priced them for this fall for new hardware.

00:25:23   And that – again, I think it's a really interesting discussion that they must have had inside about what to do right now at the end of June when presumably the Apple TV is the earliest they're coming in September at the iPhone event.

00:25:39   And I think in a lot – I think the year that these actual models came out, they came out in October, right?

00:25:44   A lot of times Apple's fall schedule – they clearly always have a September event for the phone and the Apple Watches.

00:25:51   And if there are new AirPods, they like to put the AirPods in that event, too.

00:25:55   Sometimes they put other things in that event.

00:25:59   There was – I think there was one time at the iPhone event where Oprah was at Apple Park because they were talking about Apple – the actual – the service Apple TV.

00:26:07   I think Steven Spielberg was there.

00:26:09   I don't know.

00:26:10   I didn't see any of them.

00:26:10   But they do other things at that event.

00:26:14   And maybe they'll move the Apple TV up because they want to get it out now.

00:26:17   Like the less time that they're selling this old four-year-old hardware at these absurdly higher prices, the better.

00:26:25   But what to do in the meantime?

00:26:27   I think that like you said a bit ago that maybe just stop selling them over the summer.

00:26:32   But I don't know.

00:26:33   That's so unlike Apple, right?

00:26:34   Right.

00:26:35   Like what?

00:26:37   They're not going to make an announcement.

00:26:38   They're just going to say out of stock or they're going to – all the configurations will just suddenly have October delivery times.

00:26:45   I mean I guess that's the way they would do it is you would put in an order now for a 64-gigabyte Apple TV and it would say estimated delivery October 1st or something like that.

00:26:58   And you're like, what the fuck?

00:26:59   And then September rolls around and they announce new stuff and then they fulfill your order with the new generation one, I guess.

00:27:07   I mean I'm sure they thought of that.

00:27:09   But then it's like, well, what about – how many of them do they sell week in and week out, right?

00:27:14   It's a hard product to pin down, right?

00:27:19   It's not like Vision Pro where it's considered like, oh, most people out there don't even know anybody who owns one, right?

00:27:26   That's true for Vision Pro.

00:27:27   If you just went out and did man-on-the-street interviews in a major city and said, do you own a Vision Pro?

00:27:33   No.

00:27:34   Does anybody you know own one?

00:27:36   I don't even know what it is, right?

00:27:38   That's the answer.

00:27:39   I think with Apple TV, yes, most people don't own one, right?

00:27:43   It is not the most popular platform.

00:27:45   I forget what the market numbers say.

00:27:47   But it's also not obscure.

00:27:49   It seems like Apple TV is sort of to set top boxes what the Mac was to computing for most of the Mac's life, right?

00:28:00   Like 5% market share but the 5% isn't just a random 5%.

00:28:05   It's the 5% of people who really care and they sort of are religious about it and they try to convince their friends and neighbors to buy them too.

00:28:14   And they really can't believe that the whole rest of the world is using the crap that they use.

00:28:21   I mean and I feel that way.

00:28:23   I'm like I don't have to feel this way about the Mac anymore.

00:28:25   Most people I know have Macs now.

00:28:27   I know that there's still majority for Windows but I don't even know those people.

00:28:32   Apple TV though is where I feel like I did back in the day with the Mac.

00:28:36   But it's like people knew people who own Macs.

00:28:39   They're like do you own a Mac?

00:28:40   And they'd be like no.

00:28:41   But my crazy brother-in-law does and he won't shut up about it.

00:28:44   He's got a bumper sticker on his car.

00:28:47   Who does that?

00:28:49   Mac users, right?

00:28:51   Apple TV users would do it too.

00:28:53   How many of them do they sell?

00:28:55   I don't know.

00:28:56   And I would feel guilty.

00:28:57   I'm not against capitalism.

00:28:59   I'm against out of control capitalism.

00:29:02   I don't know what to say.

00:29:03   Over exuberant capitalism.

00:29:04   I think every once in a while, every couple of decades, the world needs to kind of get together and tap the brakes on capitalism.

00:29:11   Right?

00:29:11   And we're clearly at one of those moments right now.

00:29:15   And I see it.

00:29:17   I don't think unfettered capitalism is good for society.

00:29:20   And this is where I would feel bad.

00:29:23   Really bad.

00:29:24   I would just – it would bother me.

00:29:26   I'd sometimes wake up at 3 in the morning and think, ah, I feel bad if I were Tim Cook or John Ternes.

00:29:33   And I thought about every single person who purchases an Apple TV right now for $250.

00:29:43   A, for what they're getting for $250.

00:29:45   And B, that the new one is coming in September or October.

00:29:48   Yeah.

00:29:49   Yeah.

00:29:50   I don't think he loses any sleep over it.

00:29:52   But –

00:29:53   Yeah.

00:29:53   Well, that's why I'm not the CEO of a company.

00:29:56   I would lose sleep.

00:29:57   I am not cut out to –

00:29:59   No, I am not cut out to sell people $250 four-year-old devices.

00:30:05   I would have felt bad continuing to sell the Trashcan Mac Pro for $5,000 eight years after it came out without a spec increase or however many years it was.

00:30:16   Yeah.

00:30:16   And I get why Apple did it.

00:30:18   It's just – I would think, well, especially that last year when you know you're working on the new one, you know it's coming, and it's like somebody comes into the store and buys one.

00:30:28   And it's like, I would feel bad.

00:30:30   Again, I think Tim Cook probably sleeps like a baby.

00:30:34   Yeah.

00:30:35   I'm sure.

00:30:35   All right.

00:30:37   Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor.

00:30:39   Speaking of Apple TV, this is actually somewhat related.

00:30:42   This is a very, very fun app.

00:30:44   It is Coax, C-O-A-X.

00:30:47   And the website is coaxtheapp.com.

00:30:53   See, you're smart.

00:30:54   You know about this.

00:30:56   Coax is – it's a great app.

00:30:59   It's for iPhone, iPad, Apple TV.

00:31:02   I love it on Apple TV.

00:31:04   And what you do is you can connect to a Plex server.

00:31:07   And if you have Plex and you know what Plex is, you know what a Plex server is.

00:31:12   But what Coax does is it is a completely custom interface to your Plex server.

00:31:19   Really smooth, really polished interface.

00:31:22   But then once it sets up and reads your library, it creates a fake TV guide of movies.

00:31:30   Or you can go to TV shows if you want.

00:31:32   There's, like, two kind of paths to take, movies or TV.

00:31:34   And it creates a channel lineup as though you're watching just old-fashioned TV.

00:31:40   What's on right now?

00:31:41   And the movies – you know, like, if a movie started at 3.30 and you fire up Coax at 4 o'clock, it's like half an hour into the movie.

00:31:50   And everything happens real fast.

00:31:53   So, like, you go down, down, down between channels.

00:31:56   The preview of what's on just loads right away just like it used to.

00:32:00   Remember when you used to be able to change channels right away and the video would keep playing?

00:32:05   And so you get these serendipitous moments like, oh, this movie.

00:32:10   Oh, this scene in this movie.

00:32:12   And you just – my first thought trying this app out is I'm so modernized by wanting the streaming world.

00:32:20   So I'm like, oh, I'd like to start this over from the beginning.

00:32:22   But instead, it's just like what happens when you channel swapped in the old days.

00:32:26   You just – your thumb just disappears from the remote and you just keep watching and it just keeps playing.

00:32:33   And it's better because it's the benefit of, you know, movies and shows that you've already picked, that you know you already like.

00:32:39   And there aren't any commercials.

00:32:41   Right.

00:32:42   And it's super high quality, often 4K rips depending on your library.

00:32:48   So it's really, really high quality.

00:32:50   It is a whole library or arsenal of shows and movies that are from your collection that you love.

00:32:56   So, of course, it's like one banger after another.

00:32:59   It's like, oh, my God, this is on.

00:33:01   What a great movie.

00:33:02   Who decided that was on?

00:33:03   And it is so well done.

00:33:05   Both sides of this.

00:33:07   I think the concept is super clever and really, really interesting.

00:33:11   And it really is nostalgic.

00:33:13   And the execution is exquisite.

00:33:15   It looks super fun.

00:33:17   I don't think skeuomorphic is quite the right word.

00:33:21   But it is, it's like, just remember when apps used to just have fun with a gimmick.

00:33:26   And with the gimmick being it's a TV guide.

00:33:29   Yeah.

00:33:29   It's just like the font selection, the layout.

00:33:32   It's all.

00:33:33   Verisimilitude or something.

00:33:35   Yeah, something like that, right?

00:33:37   It's verisimilitude.

00:33:39   It's just fun.

00:33:41   It is just a fun interface to a fun idea.

00:33:43   Great concept, great execution.

00:33:45   It's really, really great.

00:33:47   And it is purely native across all four platforms.

00:33:51   iOS, macOS 2, it is available for the Mac, tvOS, and visionOS.

00:33:56   It's even got a visionOS app, which I haven't even tried that one yet.

00:33:59   I'll bet it's super fun.

00:34:00   It's just really great.

00:34:01   Pure Swift everywhere is truly native.

00:34:05   This is built for the Apple platforms and feels it.

00:34:08   It really does, because it just doesn't look like some shit web app wrapped around something.

00:34:14   This is like somebody who really, really cares about platform details.

00:34:18   And taking the gimmick of the premise, the full nine yards, it is just played out to the extreme.

00:34:25   Super fun.

00:34:26   It's just a miracle I even made this podcast, because I was playing with it on Apple TV before we recorded.

00:34:31   And Robert Altman's The Player was on one of them.

00:34:35   And it's right after he killed the guy after the movie and shows up to work the next morning.

00:34:40   And I'm like, oh, my God, I got to go record the show.

00:34:42   It's like, I'd love to keep watching this.

00:34:44   And that asshole's in the meeting talking about, hey, we don't have to hire screenwriters anymore.

00:34:49   We could just pick stories out of the newspaper.

00:34:51   And it's like, oh, my God, this scene.

00:34:53   I remember I've been thinking about the scene for months because it's exactly like these arguments about AI.

00:34:58   Yeah.

00:34:58   It's just a point chat GPT and tell it to write a screenplay.

00:35:01   That's all you need.

00:35:02   And I could still be watching that movie right now.

00:35:04   There's an alternate world.

00:35:05   Instead of talking to me.

00:35:06   Instead of talking to you.

00:35:08   It is so great.

00:35:09   Anyway, coaxtheapp.com.

00:35:12   If you use Plex, you're nuts if you don't get this.

00:35:15   And this app is so good that you should get into Plex just to be able to use this app.

00:35:22   That's how good it is.

00:35:23   The launch price is still only.

00:35:26   The app is only a couple months old.

00:35:28   It's a $60 one-time purchase.

00:35:30   And that's the launch price.

00:35:32   They've been holding out on that price for this sponsorship on this show.

00:35:35   They're going to raise the price to $75 soon.

00:35:38   I forget when exactly.

00:35:40   If you're listening to me and Maltz here while this episode is still fresh, jump on it now.

00:35:46   Go check it out at coaxtheapp.com because you can get limited time pricing.

00:35:51   If you're listening to this in the future and it's a little bit older, it's like you may not get the $60 limited time pricing.

00:35:58   I'm still telling you, check out this app at coaxtheapp.com.

00:36:03   It is so, so freaking good.

00:36:06   So fun.

00:36:06   There are also monthly and annual subscriptions available.

00:36:10   And those come with free trials.

00:36:12   So you could get like, if you're like, I don't want to spend $60 without trying it.

00:36:17   Try the monthly trial.

00:36:19   You get a week.

00:36:20   You can try it.

00:36:20   And then you can cancel the monthly subscription and do the one-time thing if you want before the week is over and just pay for that.

00:36:27   But anyway, there are trials with the subscriptions.

00:36:31   But the one-time price is the way to go, in my opinion.

00:36:34   Go check them out.

00:36:35   coaxtheapp.com.

00:36:36   Super fun sponsorship.

00:36:37   Thank you.

00:36:38   Speaking of Vision Pro, poor Vision Pro got a 6% price increase.

00:36:45   Yeah.

00:36:46   Yeah.

00:36:47   $3,500 starting price originally, now $3,700.

00:36:51   That's really going to affect sales.

00:36:55   I cannot stop laughing about it.

00:36:58   I guess I get it.

00:37:00   It's like, well, if they didn't increase the price at all, it would only add fuel to the fire that maybe they're just walking away from the whole platform and they're abandoning it, which has sort of been rumored.

00:37:14   There were a couple of interviews.

00:37:15   Apple didn't do a lot of interviews at WWDC earlier this month, but they did some.

00:37:19   And there was one where somebody asked somebody, I forget who, about it.

00:37:24   And they gave a diplomatic Apple-like answer, but more or less shot it down and said, no, we don't have anything in the future to announce, of course.

00:37:31   But we're all in on this platform, and you could see it in all the whatever list of features they added to Vision OS 27.

00:37:37   6% increase.

00:37:38   Yeah.

00:37:41   Everything else is, well, I mean, I guess it gets up to like 30%.

00:37:45   So it's between 15% and 33% everything else, right?

00:37:50   And then the two outliers are the Vision Pro on the low end and the Apple TV on the high end.

00:37:56   Right.

00:37:57   And I do think, you know, it doesn't make any sense, because what did they update the Vision Pro to, an M5 chip, right?

00:38:04   It doesn't make any sense that if all the other M series products, the iPad Pro, all the various MacBooks, if they all went up about 20%, it doesn't really, although I guess when they're all, I don't know, maybe it does make sense that the M chip is only, or the RAM and everything is that low of a price out of the $3,500.

00:38:27   Maybe it does make sense.

00:38:29   I don't know.

00:38:29   It was like lenses and cameras are probably pretty high in that.

00:38:33   I really do think in terms of what percentage of the cost of the device is RAM and storage, it was low compared to other products.

00:38:43   It's these fancy displays and everything else, the R chip and everything else in the Vision Pro.

00:38:48   And the number of units they're selling combined.

00:38:54   If there was any product that they really could have just said, ah, we won't touch the price on that one, I think it was Vision Pro.

00:39:02   Yeah, I mean, do you think that they're making too many of them right now?

00:39:06   I mean, or making any of them at all?

00:39:09   Or just selling inventory?

00:39:10   Right, yeah.

00:39:10   Do they need, are they buying lots of RAM and SSD to put into them?

00:39:15   Right.

00:39:15   Like, they've probably already made enough to keep selling until-

00:39:19   I would think so.

00:39:20   But I don't know.

00:39:22   So I really do think that the 6% increase is sort of, it's not about the margins and the component prices, but really is sort of a marketing move of saying, still alive.

00:39:37   It's perception, yeah.

00:39:38   Yeah.

00:39:38   Not dead yet, right?

00:39:40   What was the, what's the, the, the guy in Monty Python and Holy Grail?

00:39:43   Monty Python, yeah.

00:39:43   Speaking of which, I should wait for that one to come on.

00:39:47   That's right, yeah.

00:39:50   Talk about one that when it comes on, that might be the epitome of a movie that you can jump into.

00:39:57   Yeah, anywhere, really.

00:39:58   Yeah, that one, it's a couple of other ones that come to mind.

00:40:02   Airplane, right?

00:40:03   If you could jump into Airplane, one minute in, half an hour in, an hour in, you could jump in five minutes before the end, and it doesn't matter.

00:40:14   You're just going to keep watching.

00:40:15   Monty Python is sort of like that.

00:40:17   Although, maybe not five minutes before the end.

00:40:19   I think that movie kind of ends.

00:40:20   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:21   It ends pretty poorly.

00:40:22   It just ends, like so many other skits.

00:40:26   Yes.

00:40:26   Which, I guess, is part of the appeal.

00:40:30   I don't know.

00:40:31   Yeah.

00:40:31   Right, or part of the brand, but it's like, yeah.

00:40:34   It's like Apple and margins.

00:40:35   For the first 85% of the movie, you could jump in at any time.

00:40:39   But I do think that the Vision Pro's 6% increase is sort of a not dead yet.

00:40:44   Yeah, yeah.

00:40:46   It certainly seems like it.

00:40:48   Anything else on the pricing?

00:40:49   Well, other than the fact that they also suggested that there could be more price increases coming.

00:40:55   Right, right.

00:40:56   Well, and it's odd to get threats from Apple.

00:40:59   Yeah, right.

00:41:01   And I understand that they're not trying to be threatening, but it is a little ominous, right?

00:41:08   I presume that it means that new iPhones and Apple Watches in September will be more expensive than the ones that they replace.

00:41:20   Yes.

00:41:21   Yeah, it's the rest of the lineup that's going to get it.

00:41:23   Right.

00:41:23   Yeah.

00:41:24   Right.

00:41:25   But the way that they said it, though, it more or less sounds – and again, maybe they have to.

00:41:31   Maybe they're worried.

00:41:32   Maybe their pulse on the industry is that who even knows if these increases are enough?

00:41:37   Right.

00:41:38   Who knows if they have a suspicion?

00:41:39   How long it's going to go on.

00:41:41   I mean, it seems like you get into the point where some of the – there's – I don't know.

00:41:45   Some of these data centers they're walking away from and are not getting done for various reasons, and maybe the demand doesn't pan out sooner rather than later.

00:41:55   Right.

00:41:57   Chaotic situations eventually come to an end, but in the meantime often grow more chaotic, right?

00:42:04   Your house could be on fire, and you think, oh, my God, this sucks.

00:42:08   The kitchen's on fire, and it could get a lot worse, right?

00:42:11   It's like you could be like, oh, I remember when I was worried because the kitchen was on fire.

00:42:15   Well, now the whole house burned down.

00:42:17   You know what I mean?

00:42:19   There is a possibility that as much as we're all right now bemoaning the early summer of 2026 as a crisis in RAM and SSD storage, there is a possibility that come Christmas will be like, remember the summer when things were good or they were better?

00:42:40   You know, it is entirely possible that six months from now the situation will be worse, and I feel like that's – I don't know.

00:42:47   I kind of felt like Apple's ambiguous statement was covering all possibilities in that regard.

00:42:54   Presumably, though, hopefully, that this is really only a reference to the iPhone and Apple Watch, which did not get price increases, and I guess they're just waiting for the new products to do it.

00:43:06   But then I guess it's curious why didn't they do that, if that's my theory of what they did with Apple TV, increase nows.

00:43:13   Why didn't they do it with Apple or iPhone and Apple Watch?

00:43:17   I don't know.

00:43:19   Maybe because they sell so many ungodly more of iPhones and Apple Watch that they're like, let's let people who are worried about prices buy these old ones now, right?

00:43:31   You know, that they let them buy them now if they're worried about it and give them as much warning as possible and will take the hit.

00:43:39   I mean, I think maybe in that case it's also an instance of where they – for like the pros, right, they probably have things locked in at the very least.

00:43:49   Wouldn't you think that they have the prices for those contracts locked in through that cycle?

00:43:56   I guess, you know?

00:43:57   And then – yeah, I mean – and you don't have to – like with the Vision Pro, you don't have to – I mean, unlike with the Vision Pro, I mean, like you don't have to worry about the perception that you're getting rid of the iPhone, obviously.

00:44:07   And so you don't have that concern.

00:44:09   And so just keep selling them at the prices that – basically without marking it up even further and taking the profit, you just keep selling them at those prices.

00:44:18   And then the rest of the lineup, though, like the base model, the 17, is further out.

00:44:25   It's not coming to – you know, the 18 is not coming to the spring, right?

00:44:28   That's supposedly, right, you know, and the rumor mill is very consistent on that regard.

00:44:33   I haven't seen anybody say otherwise.

00:44:35   Yeah.

00:44:35   What we're expecting is a new release strategy where the only new iPhones coming in September are the 18 Pro and the folding, quote-unquote, Ultra, and the regular, no-adjective iPhone 18 will move.

00:44:53   And the iPhone Air, second generation, which is still weird that it didn't get a number, is moving to the spring schedule when they've been releasing these e-phones.

00:45:04   So they'll have, I guess, some kind of every five- or six-month release where the two high-end Premiere ones come out in September and then the rest of them come out in the spring.

00:45:18   The question is, will they increase the prices of the 17 and 17e and the iPhone Air in September even though they're year-old products?

00:45:28   Or keep selling them until spring at the existing prices?

00:45:33   That doesn't seem sustainable, but maybe?

00:45:36   I don't know.

00:45:37   I don't know.

00:45:38   I feel like, well, when the prices of the Pros go up, it might behoove them to raise the prices of the 17s simply because it makes the 17s look much more attractive in comparison.

00:45:50   And I always fill out the chart with the pricing, and I think it's always, it's unsurprising to me because I do it every year, but it's like, oh, every $100 there's a new iPhone.

00:45:59   What's the 17e start at?

00:46:01   I forget.

00:46:02   $600.

00:46:03   There's a $600 iPhone, a $700 iPhone, an $800 iPhone.

00:46:07   If they only increase the prices of the 18 Pro and the folding one, which everybody is thinking is going to be $2,000 or higher, maybe now people are thinking $2,500.

00:46:19   That would create this gap between, if they don't raise the prices of the iPhone 17, that there'd be this gap between the 17 and the 18 Pro.

00:46:27   I mean, there could be, you know, all sorts of products are sold with a gap between the mid-tier and the high-tier, but that hasn't been Apple's strategy.

00:46:36   I don't know.

00:46:37   I mean, and you look at the iPad lineup, they raised everything in pretty relatively similar proportions.

00:46:44   Yeah.

00:46:45   This is another example of Apple doing something that I don't like, but is probably good business, is moving.

00:46:51   Like I said, I have the 17.

00:46:52   I tend to buy at that level, and now I'm going to have to wait six months longer in order for the privilege.

00:47:00   I do.

00:47:02   I don't love that.

00:47:03   I mean, I would rather be able to get a new phone when the people buying pros get new phones, but I feel like maybe it does.

00:47:10   I mean, I think it probably makes sense for them.

00:47:11   They get that lead time.

00:47:13   Anybody who's on the fence is going to have to think twice about it because they're going to have to wait longer to get a cheaper phone.

00:47:19   And that's probably good business, but I don't have to like it.

00:47:23   I think that the mentality that you are describing for yourself is exactly why they're doing it.

00:47:30   Yeah.

00:47:30   Oh, yeah.

00:47:31   Because there's an awful lot of people who are like, I could buy a pro, but I think the non-pro is a better value for me, and I kind of like it, and I like the camera's smaller.

00:47:40   Maybe they should have been doing that all along, honestly.

00:47:42   Right.

00:47:42   And then they come out.

00:47:43   They sort of did, right, because the SEs and the Es all came out.

00:47:46   I mean, so they were doing it with that, the very bottom of the lineup, but they weren't doing it a step up, and so they're fixing that mistake now, I guess.

00:47:55   Right.

00:47:56   And so these come out, and then you're like, ah, and then there's like this dopamine craving part of your brain that is like, hey, hey, it's September.

00:48:05   Isn't this the time of year?

00:48:06   I think at the prices that they're going to be at, it's not going to be a question for me.

00:48:09   I'm just going to be like, no, I don't need that.

00:48:10   I don't know, but it's obviously, and it's just obviously going to be a major part of what people are talking about when they come out, right?

00:48:25   And it would have been anyway, even without the RAM and SSD crisis and this unprecedented industry situation, it would have been anyway with the folding phone costing $2,000 or more, which all of the other folding phones cost, but Apple would be the first ones to say, we're not like these other companies.

00:48:49   So it is commensurate with what all the other folding screens cost, and presumably Apple's is the nicest folding screen, but it's like, so even if this wasn't happening, whatever the starting price of the folding iPhone was going to be is what people would be talking about, right?

00:49:07   And some percentage of the day one mainstream news headlines are going to be Apple announced new iPhones, and one of them cost $2,000, right?

00:49:16   We can laugh, we can roll our eyes, but that is what people care about, right?

00:49:21   And it is eye-catching, and now whatever that number is, it's going to be 20% to 25% higher, probably.

00:49:27   Yeah.

00:49:29   And with the, you know, it's like, well, but they also announced iPhone 18 Pros, and they don't fold, they're the normal shape, and the price didn't go up at all, that would have been a better story than, and their prices went up a lot, too.

00:49:43   I don't know what they can do about it, though, and I don't think they're happy.

00:49:47   Ben Thompson has emphasized this and done the math on it, that if you hold for inflation, they've actually lowered the price of top-tier iPhones over in recent years.

00:49:59   It's actually, in terms of if you inflation adjust the dollars, iPhones, including iPhone Pros, have come down in price over the years, even though, famously, inflation has been a global phenomenon for the last five years.

00:50:15   That's true, and that has been great, but that's the sort of thing human psychology doesn't notice, right?

00:50:22   That price that you're used to has stayed the same, and inflation adjusted, it's actually a better value.

00:50:28   It's like, cognitively, even if you understand that sentence, you can say, oh, that is interesting, and I'm kind of happy about that.

00:50:34   It doesn't really hit you emotionally, though.

00:50:37   But when your new iPhone costs 25% more than the last one you paid for two years ago, that hits you in an emotional way, and the fact that you've saved some money on inflation adjusted dollars into five years before doesn't really assuage the burn, right?

00:50:55   Yeah.

00:50:56   It's not that much of a salve.

00:50:58   I could just see Tim saying to Ternus, well, good luck.

00:51:03   It does make for an interesting first keynote, right?

00:51:08   Yeah.

00:51:10   You also wrote recently about it not seeming like Tim is really going to be putting his feet up after this.

00:51:18   No, I don't think so.

00:51:19   After.

00:51:20   Yeah, I don't think that that's a reason for the transition.

00:51:24   I don't think that the escalating number of global government diplomatic tasks that Apple CEO or somebody at Apple has to take care of, I do think it's higher than it ever was.

00:51:39   I don't think it's going down anytime soon.

00:51:41   I don't think that Tim Cook was like, I have so much to do globally that I kind of need to step aside as CEO and become executive chairman and take care of this.

00:51:50   But I do think it kind of contributed to the timing.

00:51:54   I might as well do it now because my plate's still going to be full.

00:51:57   Yeah.

00:51:57   All right.

00:51:58   Here, let me take a break and we can continue on that because I thought that was an interesting side note.

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00:56:03   One of the other little things, the thing that prompted your comment before the sponsor break there about Tim Cook and his global responsibilities or whatever, however Apple phrased it.

00:56:12   What was the word?

00:56:14   I forget.

00:56:16   Dealing with dictators around the world?

00:56:18   Was that what Apple said?

00:56:19   No, I don't think that was the way they put it.

00:56:22   I think that...

00:56:23   Maybe they should have.

00:56:24   Assist with certain aspects of the company, including engaging with policymakers around the world.

00:56:32   Around the world.

00:56:32   Policymakers around the world.

00:56:34   Yeah.

00:56:34   The idea here is that there are two Chinese companies, and I have to admit, I've never heard of either of them before.

00:56:42   YMTC and XMTP, I think is the other one?

00:56:49   CXMT.

00:56:50   CXMT.

00:56:52   I don't know.

00:56:52   Both of them sound...

00:56:54   So CXMT or YMTC.

00:56:57   Right.

00:56:58   They both seem like a really shitty draw in Scrabble.

00:57:01   I'm going to go with the X, I think.

00:57:07   I think the X is more points than the Y.

00:57:11   Yeah, at least some points.

00:57:12   But both of them pretty light on the vowels.

00:57:15   But the gist of it is, I'd never heard of them before, but just as I understand it, this seems kind of complex.

00:57:21   But these are two companies.

00:57:23   They're Chinese companies.

00:57:24   They are both apparently affiliated with the government in China and the military.

00:57:30   And the government is subsidizing them.

00:57:34   And they both make RAM.

00:57:35   And the government is subsidizing them to a significant degree to make them competitive on a global stage.

00:57:44   And governments outside China, around the world, have sort of cast a stink eye on buying RAM components from them because it would disadvantage the non-subsidized actually trying to run a business where the revenue minus cost of goods equals profit runs the business.

00:58:08   And that if China, if two Chinese state-run companies grew to a dominant position in the RAM market worldwide, then China would have control over the RAM market.

00:58:21   And geopolitically, this is a bad idea for China to have control over an important market, which we've seen with things like the rare earth minerals of late, right?

00:58:32   That China has a geographic good fortune and government control has led them to a dominant position in these rare earth materials there of increasing importance to various devices being made around the world.

00:58:48   And apparently, I didn't remember this controversy or didn't even notice it in 2022, but Apple had apparently floated buying RAM from one of these companies in 2022 only for use in phones for the Chinese market that they would continue, that phones for the rest of the world would continue sourcing from the regular non-Chinese RAM manufacturers that Apple previously bought from.

00:59:14   And then for the phones in China, some or all of them would use RAM from these Chinese companies.

00:59:18   And that did not go over well.

00:59:21   And Apple was just like, never mind, forget it.

00:59:24   But bipartisan, right?

00:59:26   And it is very rare these days for anything to be bipartisan.

00:59:30   I mean, really.

00:59:31   But Marco Rubio and Mark Warner, who's Rubio, of course, was then a Republican senator from Florida.

00:59:38   Now he's the secretary of state and it's more right.

00:59:42   He's he's also I forget what else he is.

00:59:45   What else is he?

00:59:46   Oh, yeah.

00:59:46   I forget.

00:59:47   I mean, it's hard to keep track.

00:59:49   Some kind of national security director or something.

00:59:53   Or no, that was.

00:59:53   Well, he's something else.

00:59:55   He's not qualified to do.

00:59:57   Yeah.

00:59:57   Yes.

00:59:58   But one other thing he's not qualified to do.

01:00:01   Something else that he's not qualified to do, but also more qualified than anybody else in the Trump administration.

01:00:07   Probably true.

01:00:08   Right.

01:00:09   It's the truth of it.

01:00:10   Yeah.

01:00:10   It is.

01:00:11   Both things can be true that he's absolutely unqualified for any of his current jobs.

01:00:16   Yeah.

01:00:16   And he's also better him than somebody than the next guy.

01:00:19   The most qualified, most informed, most honest person in the Trump administration.

01:00:27   Both things can be true, but he's in a more influential position now than he was in 2022 as a senator from Florida, but also Senator Mark Warner, a Democrat from Virginia, wrote a letter just to say this would be a bad idea.

01:00:40   Their letter, I guess, used more words than that, but more or less is a bad idea.

01:00:45   Is the idea that it's a bad idea simply because we don't want China to control the market?

01:00:49   Or is it or is there some sort of implication that there is going to be spyware and RAM?

01:00:55   That they didn't say, and I don't – that's a great question, John, because I thought that too, and I'm glad you brought it up.

01:01:02   And I don't know, and I kind of Googled, and I didn't see anybody speculating about that, and I don't –

01:01:10   It seems harder – I mean, bring up the big hack, right?

01:01:13   I think the idea behind that wasn't there, like, an extra piece of equipment in those – wasn't there supposedly there was an extra piece of equipment that was doing some sort of spyware?

01:01:23   But it was on a whole – the idea of the big hack was that it was a whole – on a whole motherboard, there was a secret chip that would phone home.

01:01:32   And that – I don't really think –

01:01:34   It seems hard – I mean, I don't – I'm not nearly technical enough to make this assessment, but it seems hard with RAM to do something like that.

01:01:43   No, I don't – I don't know.

01:01:44   I don't think it's possible.

01:01:45   And I'm going from – and this is the thing where I do feel old – two system architecture courses I took getting my computer science degree in the mid-1990s.

01:01:56   Two more than me.

01:01:58   But RAM really is just memory.

01:02:04   Yeah.

01:02:04   It really is just fast – as fast as possible access to an index.

01:02:11   It seems like at the very least you'd have to have something else controlling the registers or something.

01:02:15   Yeah, I don't –

01:02:16   Because the stuff where – that you're running is –

01:02:19   There's just no place, right?

01:02:20   Like if there was something funny in the RAM, it would have no way of communicating out, right?

01:02:26   It's – it really – I don't – I actually don't think it's possible.

01:02:30   I think it's really just about not giving them any kind of position because they're thumbs on the scale, because the government wants them to have a prominent position in the RAM market.

01:02:44   You know, you could see it now, right?

01:02:46   The previous foray of Apple, like, hey, how about we buy Chinese RAM for Chinese iPhones, was four years ago.

01:02:53   And here we are four years later and China thinking, hey, RAM is going to – is already important and is always going to be important and maybe will become more important, was correct, right?

01:03:06   RAM is one of those things.

01:03:07   There are certain businesses that are just like, oh, that's a good business to be in because nobody's ever going to get tired of that, right?

01:03:14   Like maybe you'll gain competitors and you'll have to compete.

01:03:18   But, like, you know, if you run a restaurant, people are always going to need to eat, right?

01:03:23   RAM, it's – nope, it's never going to fall out of fashion.

01:03:25   But now it's like people are eating more, right, with RAM.

01:03:28   Right, exactly.

01:03:29   It's like everybody is – it's like the opposite of the GLP-1 drugs.

01:03:34   Everybody is taking drugs to get fat.

01:03:37   I don't know.

01:03:37   Everybody's, you know –

01:03:38   Put on more muscle.

01:03:39   Let's say it goes right to muscle.

01:03:41   Exactly.

01:03:42   Everybody's trying to build protein.

01:03:43   Yeah.

01:03:44   I don't think it's a security thing.

01:03:46   And if it were, I feel like there'd be more of a political debate over the fact that so many devices are made in China, right?

01:03:56   Right.

01:03:56   I would think so too, right?

01:03:58   I mean it seems like if the government could exert that kind of control and do that, they would be doing it already regardless of whether or not they are financially invested in the company.

01:04:10   Right.

01:04:10   Although I do think in hindsight, like if somebody could have foreseen – like the whole plot of the Apple in China book by – what's his name?

01:04:22   If somebody could have seen what Apple's partnership with Foxconn and, hey, how about we start building these devices in China and seen how it would go.

01:04:35   And the gist of Apple in China is that as much as making these iPhones and everything else in China allowed Apple to grow to the enormous size that it has and produce iPhones at the nearly unfathomable scale that they do.

01:04:52   Like it really is just unbelievable that they make – however many iPhones they sell a year, it's just this unfathomable number, right?

01:04:59   Remember when the tariffs came in a year ago and we were doing napkin math on – well, they're sending six 747s full of iPhones out of India ahead of the tariffs.

01:05:10   How many iPhones is that?

01:05:12   Right.

01:05:12   And it's like this fun job interview question.

01:05:15   Oh, how many iPhones fit in a freight 747?

01:05:17   And it's this ungodly number of iPhones.

01:05:20   And then you're like, oh, my God, that's amazing.

01:05:22   How many – six airplanes full of iPhones.

01:05:25   My God.

01:05:25   And then you're like, well, if they're shipping them all to the U.S., how many weeks of stock is that?

01:05:30   And it was like two weeks.

01:05:31   And it's like, oh.

01:05:34   It's still a lot.

01:05:35   Yeah.

01:05:35   I mean, it's –

01:05:36   So they'd be shipping most of those iPhones over here anyway.

01:05:40   They just kind of needed to get a couple extra planes in the air before midnight to beat a tariff.

01:05:45   It's just unbelievable how if it weren't for China – I think that's one of the themes of the book.

01:05:50   They wouldn't be able to sell as many iPhones as they do because they literally would not have been able to make as many as they do.

01:05:58   And therefore, the price of iPhones would be higher because the supply would be lower but demand globally would be the same.

01:06:05   It's possible that Apple would be just as profitable.

01:06:09   Probably not.

01:06:10   But it might be close.

01:06:13   But it would be by buying more expensive – fewer people buying more expensive iPhones around the world, which might be exactly where we're back to with the price increases.

01:06:25   But I think if you could play that future out, I think national security hawks in the Senate and just national security apparatus would say this is a bad idea geopolitically because it's going to embolden China.

01:06:40   And that's sort of the main theme of the book, Apple and China, was that however much it benefited Apple, the partnership with Apple benefited China as a whole more than Apple.

01:06:50   And so I think that lesson has been learned and the idea that China is going to expand into RAM is something that they're trying to keep from happening in the first place.

01:06:59   And the same thing with AI, right?

01:07:01   The same reason dating back to the Biden administration that they've been trying to limit the sales of high-end NVIDIA hardware to China to try to keep them behind in AI.

01:07:17   And they obviously can't keep the hardware out of their hands but make it black market only.

01:07:21   And by making it black market only, it's more expensive and it's – they can't get as much of it as they could otherwise, like any black market good.

01:07:30   And I think that's how they're looking at the RAM market.

01:07:33   But it is interesting to –

01:07:37   Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if Tim Cook has greased the wheels, I mean, enough to get a different answer this time.

01:07:44   Right, because, you know, even though Marco Rubio –

01:07:46   Because he's only got to grease one wheel, right?

01:07:48   Exactly, right.

01:07:49   And it's however much Marco Rubio still may feel the same way he did in 2022 and may be in a bigger position of influence.

01:07:57   If Trump tells him to wear shoes that don't fit, guess what he wears, right?

01:08:03   I mean, that's true.

01:08:04   I mean, you know I'm not making that up, Trump.

01:08:06   Yeah, no, I know.

01:08:07   Trump got onto a thing where he was bought with floor shimes or something.

01:08:11   There's a certain kind of shoe.

01:08:13   And a couple months ago, he started buying them.

01:08:15   And he's like –

01:08:17   Full cabinets wearing shoes that don't fit.

01:08:19   Because not only does he think every man in the cabinet should be wearing the same pair of black, shiny, patent leather shoes, he also thinks – honest to God, if you're out there listening, Trump thinks that he has a gift like a carnival barker.

01:08:34   Like, you go up and it's like, guess your age.

01:08:36   Guess your age within two years or you win a prize.

01:08:38   He thinks he can guess your shoe size.

01:08:40   Right.

01:08:41   And so he's like, you don't have the shoes.

01:08:43   You look like a size 12.

01:08:44   And Marco Rubio is like a size 7.

01:08:47   I mean, there's pictures of him.

01:08:48   Yeah.

01:08:48   And he looks like a little kid wearing his dad's shoes.

01:08:51   But he wore them to work.

01:08:53   So, you know, again, Trump says, hey, Apple can buy RAM from North Korea.

01:08:58   Rubio is going to be like, sure thing, boss, right?

01:09:03   He might say privately, are you sure?

01:09:05   Maybe they're a bad idea.

01:09:07   And Trump says, shut up, little Marco.

01:09:09   And then next thing you know, Apple's buying North Korean RAM.

01:09:13   Right.

01:09:13   You don't hear that much about North Korea anymore.

01:09:16   You know it.

01:09:17   Certainly not North Korean RAM, that's for sure.

01:09:20   I think there's a – I think that's – I think it's probably frustrating to Kim Jong.

01:09:27   Because when like Joe Biden was president or like when Barack Obama was president or like when George W. Bush was president.

01:09:36   It's not really a partisan thing.

01:09:37   It's like a sane or insane thing.

01:09:40   And when a sane man was president of the United States, then Kim Jong-un had the role of the madman, the crazy madman who's in charge of the most worrisome military.

01:09:53   And when that title goes to somebody else, nobody pays attention.

01:09:58   Didn't they have like a back and forth during this first administration though?

01:10:02   Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:10:03   He went over and visited him and walked over and shook his hand.

01:10:07   And he's telling people he sent him – Trump has a framed letter from him that he says he really –

01:10:12   He's very impressed by how much Kim Jong-un likes him.

01:10:16   That's about all that impresses him.

01:10:19   Yeah.

01:10:20   Sometimes I wonder, John, if I died and just having a fever dream that's lasted eight years.

01:10:26   You'd really be waking up?

01:10:28   Yeah.

01:10:29   I don't know.

01:10:30   Mm-hmm.

01:10:31   Yeah.

01:10:33   I don't know.

01:10:33   I guess that it does raise the question of why aren't there more companies that make RAM?

01:10:39   And it seems like the answer is this is one of those things where it's – you got to be – it's – you know, the only RAM worth buying is sort of cutting-edge RAM and it's really hard and the margins are often very narrow.

01:10:53   And it's a market that goes up and down.

01:10:55   The thing with the Micron CEO who was throwing some shade at Tim Cook, it was just three years ago.

01:11:02   They had negative – they were losing money.

01:11:05   They were negative margins.

01:11:07   Now, Micron, the American company that sells most of the – or I guess they're the biggest American RAM manufacturer, their last quarter they had 80% profit margins.

01:11:19   And now he's riding high on the hog and throwing some shade at Apple for not throwing a bone to them when times were tough three years ago.

01:11:28   But I guess it's super capital expensive to build these factories.

01:11:32   You know, it's like why is TSMC the only company in the world that can make the leading-edge CPU manufacturing processes, right?

01:11:40   There's one where it's all the way down to one company and the one company is in a geopolitical, not great part of the world, Taiwan.

01:11:49   I guess RAM is just similar.

01:11:51   I don't know.

01:11:52   It's just bananas.

01:11:53   I don't know.

01:11:54   I'm just used to an entire lifetime of thinking, boy, RAM is expensive.

01:11:59   And all of a sudden, it's like I look back at 40 years of my life and I think, ah, RAM used to be cheap.

01:12:07   Well, yeah.

01:12:09   I mean, people have been joking about bringing back RAM doubler.

01:12:12   And disc doubler, too, with the SSD.

01:12:18   Yeah, sure.

01:12:18   Why not?

01:12:19   Yeah, why not both?

01:12:20   Do you ever run those things back in the day?

01:12:25   I don't think I – I definitely ran RAM doubler for sure.

01:12:30   I don't think I ever ran disc doubler, though.

01:12:32   No, I ran disc doubler.

01:12:34   That was – those were the days.

01:12:37   They were system extensions.

01:12:39   I guess I'll put them in the show notes.

01:12:40   And they – I guess they used, like, GZip-style compression.

01:12:47   But instead of compressing files on disc, the RAM doubler would compress your RAM.

01:12:53   And so it's – and, again, you could write back in the day a system extension on classic Mac OS could pretty much do anything, right?

01:13:01   It could just patch anything.

01:13:03   And they patched all calls to the memory manager so that they went through the extension first.

01:13:08   And they compressed everything in RAM and decompressed it when you called it.

01:13:14   And it worked.

01:13:16   I remember reading about it and thinking, this is a bad idea.

01:13:22   And then I got my pirated copies of it and installed it.

01:13:26   And, son of a bitch, it worked, right?

01:13:29   And it was like, I guess it's a little slower, but it was nowhere near as much slower as I expected it to be.

01:13:34   Because what I remembered at the time is that when you'd click on a Stuff It archive – what was the other one called?

01:13:40   Compact Pro.

01:13:41   Oh, man.

01:13:42   Remember that?

01:13:43   We had –

01:13:43   Oh, that one I don't even remember now.

01:13:44   Oh, CPT was the extension?

01:13:47   Compact Pro.

01:13:48   No, I mean, I was a Stuff It.

01:13:50   Yeah.

01:13:51   No, Stuff It.

01:13:52   To the core.

01:13:52   There was a rivalry, Compact Pro versus Stuff It.

01:13:56   But when you double-click one of those –

01:13:58   I think Compact Pro wasn't really stepping up in that rivalry.

01:14:00   Right.

01:14:01   We didn't use Zip on the Mac because Zip didn't take care of the resource forks or the Mac metadata.

01:14:07   So we had our own – everything.

01:14:09   We had our own floppy formats.

01:14:10   We had our own compression.

01:14:11   But you would double-click a Stuff It archive, and it would take a while to decompress, right?

01:14:16   You'd just sit there and – and I thought, well, is every single call to RAM going to be like this?

01:14:21   Right, right.

01:14:23   Every single thing I do is going to – I'm going to have to wait a couple of minutes here?

01:14:27   It wasn't like that.

01:14:29   And then Disk Doubler was the insane one.

01:14:31   Disk Doubler, I believe, because it was like – with RAM Doubler, if you didn't like it, you could just restart, take the extension out, and now you don't have RAM Doubler.

01:14:40   Right.

01:14:41   Disk Doubler actually rewrote the entire –

01:14:45   Yeah, changed things on your disk.

01:14:46   And I think that's why I didn't use it.

01:14:47   Right.

01:14:48   I did because I was an idiot, a complete idiot with a 40 megabyte – I almost said gigabyte – 40 megabyte hard disk who was constantly at 39.8 megabytes consumed.

01:15:05   And I had no way to back it up completely because if I had had a second 40 megabyte disk, I would have instantly filled it up with new stuff, not used it to back up the original.

01:15:18   So I, in college, just through caution to the wind, installed Disk Doubler, and it worked.

01:15:24   It gave me – it didn't give me 80.

01:15:26   It gave me like, I don't know, 75 megabytes effectively.

01:15:30   Yeah.

01:15:30   But close enough that I didn't feel like – I didn't feel like I got ripped off by pirating the software.

01:15:36   It was worth the trouble to pirate the software.

01:15:41   I did not feel ripped off by the effort I put into not paying for the commercial utility disk doubler.

01:15:49   But it worked, and I don't remember ever regretting it.

01:15:53   Yeah.

01:15:53   And I instantly –

01:15:54   I was just looking at the – I was trying to remember what the years were.

01:15:57   So version one of Ram Doubler came out in January of 1994.

01:16:01   That sounds about right.

01:16:03   It looks like they – it went through, yeah.

01:16:06   I mean, it obviously only worked with the classic Mac OS, so –

01:16:11   Yeah.

01:16:12   Oh, yeah.

01:16:12   That was – yeah, I used those things.

01:16:16   Well, bring them back.

01:16:19   I don't think you could do it anymore.

01:16:22   No, I –

01:16:23   I hope not.

01:16:24   You can do it with Chinese RAM, but you can't do it with any other RAM.

01:16:28   Yeah, exactly.

01:16:29   Or maybe North Korean.

01:16:31   The North Korean one would be great because then you'd install the RAM, and then it would pop up like a –

01:16:38   your RAM needs a Wi-Fi connection.

01:16:40   Please connect.

01:16:43   Oh, that's unusual.

01:16:45   My RAM needs a Wi-Fi connection.

01:16:47   That's where you'd have to start wondering.

01:16:49   Maybe there's something funny.

01:16:50   Well, it's like, why does your TV need one, honestly?

01:16:52   Right.

01:16:53   Exactly.

01:16:54   I mean, I know why.

01:16:55   I know why it wants one, but why does it need one?

01:16:58   All right, let me take one last break here and thank our good friends at Squarespace.

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01:20:11   What else has been going on lately, John?

01:20:13   What else do we have to talk about?

01:20:14   How about your reactions to Golden Gate running on your spare Mac?

01:20:19   I like it better than Tahoe.

01:20:23   How about that?

01:20:23   That's a low bar.

01:20:26   Right.

01:20:27   I know.

01:20:28   I'm still running, you know, like I sort of implied, I'm still running Sequoia on this MacBook Air that I'm using right now, which is the device that I use most of the time.

01:20:40   And we'll probably skip Tahoe completely to go to Golden Gate simply because I think it's easier on the eyes.

01:20:48   It's still not perfect.

01:20:50   At least, I mean, it's still, I mean, obviously it's still beta, but there's still things that it does that I don't, visually that I don't love.

01:20:56   I don't understand why the scroll bars are so much darker.

01:20:59   And there are still instances where they touch the edge of the window that drive me crazy.

01:21:05   I'm not going to put it on my main Mac till it's out of beta.

01:21:09   I mean, I've got it on my phone.

01:21:11   I've got iOS 27 on my main phone already, though.

01:21:13   It is a little buggy, but not in any ways that have really made me regret it at all.

01:21:19   I do think battery life is a little worse, but I think battery life has been so good with an iPhone 17 Pro that I don't care.

01:21:26   But on the Mac, it's visually so much better.

01:21:30   It's just, it's like, oh, I could live with this.

01:21:32   I don't love all the changes.

01:21:34   I do overall still like the way Mac OS 8 or 15 Sequoia looks overall.

01:21:41   Yeah.

01:21:42   But the way that Golden Gate looks already, if they don't tweak anything further, it's like, oh, I could live with this at least.

01:21:49   The thing with Talo, I literally just, I would have been miserable every day.

01:21:53   I'm never, definitely.

01:21:54   I'm just skipping the whole year.

01:21:55   I love it.

01:21:56   And do you attribute that to simply just being an old Mac person?

01:22:01   No, I don't.

01:22:03   I really don't.

01:22:03   Because there have been so many other changes over the years where that instinct kicks in every couple years.

01:22:10   It's, oh, I don't like that.

01:22:12   Come on.

01:22:12   I think it was two full years of Mac OS where Helvetica was the system font.

01:22:19   It was like iOS 7 came out on the iPhone and only the iPhone.

01:22:25   And then the next year it came out for the iPad.

01:22:28   And I think two years later, they did like a iOS 7 style refresh for the Mac.

01:22:33   Maybe it was one year after iOS 7.

01:22:35   I forget if it was one or two.

01:22:36   But like at least a year or two later, they did a refresh of the Mac OS interface that was clearly aligned with iOS 7 visually.

01:22:45   And changed the system font to Helvetica because San Francisco wasn't ready yet.

01:22:52   I mean, and in hindsight, I know, I actually know for a fact that San Francisco was in development at Apple.

01:22:58   The first platform where it debuted was Apple Watch.

01:23:02   It, I don't know, I just, and I like Helvetica as a font.

01:23:07   I just don't like it as the system font.

01:23:09   Right.

01:23:10   I don't like it in, I didn't like it in the menu bar.

01:23:13   But, you know, I didn't, I didn't like it, but it didn't keep me from using it.

01:23:17   It was just like, oh, I don't like that.

01:23:19   But I'm a big boy.

01:23:20   And even if it feels like overall, it's not two steps forward, one step back.

01:23:25   If it feels like two steps forward and two steps back, it's like I can live with that.

01:23:30   Right.

01:23:30   Because it's at least even.

01:23:32   It's with Tahoe, it's no steps forward and 17 steps back.

01:23:37   Every single thing about Tahoe that's different visually from Sequoia, I think is worse.

01:23:42   Everything.

01:23:43   There's not one single visual aspect of macOS Tahoe's user interface that I think, oh, well, there's that one thing.

01:23:51   That's actually kind of nice.

01:23:52   I kind of miss it.

01:23:53   Not one thing.

01:23:54   Everything is worse.

01:23:55   The only reasons that I have considered upgrading are simply for software compliance reasons, but I've managed to dodge those to date.

01:24:03   Right.

01:24:04   I know that the new version, I think it's still in beta of Transmit from Panic is Tahoe only.

01:24:10   Net Newswire was Tahoe.

01:24:13   The Net Newswire 7 was Tahoe only.

01:24:15   My friend Lex Friedman released this app, Gnome, which is a great little utility for managing your gifts.

01:24:23   He originally just released it for Tahoe and managed to talk him into getting us a bespoke.

01:24:29   I mean, I think the whole thing works on Sequoia now, but that was based on, I think, based on my request.

01:24:36   And what's his fellow's name?

01:24:39   Lex Friedman.

01:24:42   Lex Friedman.

01:24:44   He sounds like an interesting guy.

01:24:46   He is an interesting guy.

01:24:48   Not the other one.

01:24:49   Not the Lex Friedman.

01:24:50   Oh, no, not that one.

01:24:51   No, no.

01:24:52   Not that guy.

01:24:52   No.

01:24:53   You know what?

01:24:54   This is actually two for two.

01:24:56   Snell brought him up last episode talking about when Lex was at Macworld back in the day, the voicemails he used to leave for Apple PR.

01:25:08   And they wouldn't answer his calls.

01:25:10   And he would leave like these five minute voicemail messages, which really did not make them want to answer his phone calls.

01:25:20   And then Snell brought it up, told the story.

01:25:23   And it was very funny.

01:25:23   And then I got a text message from Trudy Miller at Apple PR after she listened to the episode and said, Lex, she said, I liked Lex, but his voicemails were very long.

01:25:39   And I wrote back to her and said, you know, if you still have them, they would make for a good podcast.

01:25:43   They would.

01:25:44   Yeah.

01:25:45   Fifteen year old voicemails to Apple PR from Lex Friedman.

01:25:48   No, I shouldn't even joke.

01:25:50   I've actually I know that it runs on Sequoia is his GIF app, Gnome, because I've been running him ragged, literally with feature requests.

01:26:00   Yeah.

01:26:00   He's mentioned that.

01:26:01   Yeah.

01:26:02   I've because I'm enamored with the app, but I had a whole bunch of requests.

01:26:07   And we were just talking about we were talking about on the rebound and he and he'll he'll say he'll, you know, talk about his use.

01:26:17   But we were talking about the rebound in the morning.

01:26:19   And in the late afternoon, he had a version out for Dan and me.

01:26:23   It really is very interesting existence proof of the utility of AI coding.

01:26:29   It's same thing with the whole episode I did with Adam Lissagor talking about his Mac app hovercraft.

01:26:34   And Adam was super smart, clever guy, but not a developer at all, let alone a Mac developer.

01:26:41   And he made a Mac app that is really, really interesting and does to me something that seems very complex acting as a virtual camera.

01:26:50   And that's Adam, a very smart guy.

01:26:52   And then Lex, you know, who's not a very smart guy, is able to make I'm amazed.

01:27:02   I feel like I'm amazed by him.

01:27:04   I mean, like he is a Renaissance man.

01:27:06   He does.

01:27:07   He does everything.

01:27:08   Puts me to shame.

01:27:10   I do nothing.

01:27:11   No, but at one point I just felt like, hey, this might be exciting to Lex that I'm obviously using Gnome and I've got a bunch of ideas and I'm sending them to him.

01:27:23   And maybe he would like the idea that I'm using the app and have ideas.

01:27:27   And he seemed to agree that these are good ideas.

01:27:29   But then the amazing part is he wasn't saying like, OK, I'll look into that or I'll think about that.

01:27:35   It was like two hours later, he's like, there's a beta that does it.

01:27:39   Yeah.

01:27:39   You know.

01:27:39   Yeah.

01:27:39   Yeah.

01:27:41   And I have to admit in all and it is it is one of my favorite parts of where I am career wise and the life I've been able to make for myself is that when I was young, I thought, wouldn't it be great to know the developers of all of most of at least most of my favorite apps?

01:28:00   And if I knew them, then I could I could convince them.

01:28:05   And wouldn't it be great if I had an influential website where maybe maybe my requests would carry an unfair amount of weight and I could convince the people who make the apps that I use and love to implement features that come to my mind.

01:28:23   And I thought that would be great.

01:28:30   I don't want to brag, but I think I have a good hit ratio of feature requests and feature requests getting implemented.

01:28:38   You were talking about stealing RAM doubler.

01:28:40   I can remember.

01:28:41   I mean, I'm sure I have the floppy back here, but like the first time I got Photoshop, I just walked into the computer lab at school with a floppy disk, stuck it in the thing and dragged Photoshop onto the disk because you could do that back then and walked off with it.

01:28:55   And now we know several people who are or have been working on Photoshop.

01:29:00   Photoshop, right.

01:29:01   I know people who work on Photoshop or have worked on Photoshop.

01:29:04   It is very odd, right?

01:29:06   And they're like, that's what you used to do, this pirate software?

01:29:10   And it's a yes.

01:29:11   And the that was that easy.

01:29:14   The copy protection, such that it was, was that when you registered the copy, if you bought, legit bought the fresh copy and then you launched it, it would ask for a serial number and a name.

01:29:27   And I guess, and again, anything went back in those days, the app would write that information into its own resource fork somewhere.

01:29:37   Yeah.

01:29:37   So that when you'd copy like a Drexel University licensed copy of Photoshop and then you'd launch it at home, if you went to about Photoshop, it would say licensed to Drexel University, whatever lab.

01:29:49   Well, did I care?

01:29:51   I don't care.

01:29:52   I can just say Fred Flintstone in there.

01:29:54   If you got it off the computer, it was fine.

01:29:56   You couldn't install it from the floppies, but you could take it right from the computer.

01:29:59   Yeah.

01:30:00   But honestly, it is, there is a weird, so it's not just that people like Lex and Adam are making really clever, cool apps and they are people who previously did not make clever, cool apps, but they're making cool apps and they're making, adding new features at, to me, at a crazy pace.

01:30:19   Like, all these years, literally at this point, it seems crazy to say, but decades that I've known very talented developers who make software I use, I've never, I mean, when I worked at Barebone Software, I was in the office with Rich Siegel.

01:30:35   I didn't get changes made as quickly as I do now, just by sending them to Lex on iMessage.

01:30:44   And then all of a sudden, later in the same day, he's got a build that does it.

01:30:47   It's like crazy, but it's a very cool app, Gnome.

01:30:51   You know what my least favorite changes from Tahoe, and it is either exactly the same or almost exactly the same in Golden Gate, and I'm very sad that they didn't fix it, is I hate the way highlighted menus look.

01:31:06   Like, file, edit, view, like when you click the file menu, the highlight over the word file, not the menu that drops down, but the highlight on the menu, I hate now that it's not like a rectangle with round corners, it's like a pill.

01:31:23   And it's just sort of a light shade.

01:31:26   I think that the menu should look like a tab, right?

01:31:30   It should be, and it should be connected to the menu underneath.

01:31:33   It's sort of a classic look to the menu.

01:31:37   And that you could draw, and if you drew like a SF symbol of a menu from the menu bar dropping down,

01:31:45   you would have a very strongly highlighted menu title, and then it has a tab at the upper left corner, and then the rectangular menu underneath.

01:31:55   The Tahoe look for this, it just, every single time I click a menu in Tahoe or now Golden Gate.

01:32:03   Yeah, I agree.

01:32:03   Every time, it breaks my heart, because it just should look cool.

01:32:08   It doesn't look cool at all.

01:32:09   It looks like they're embarrassed, right?

01:32:11   And I've always, you laugh, but I honestly think that that was sort of part of the wrong direction that Mac UI has gone for 10 years at Apple has been,

01:32:22   there's a contingent of designers or interface thinkers within Apple who didn't like the menu bar, right?

01:32:30   They're like, oh, we should make it hide automatically, or we should make it smaller, we should make it clear, we should de-emphasize it.

01:32:36   Put more, do everything, nobody goes in a menu bar anyway.

01:32:40   And it's like, well, nobody goes to the menu bar if you make it look visually less prominent, right?

01:32:44   Below these many years later, it is one of the, it is an idea that is literally, the basic concept is unchanged from 1984, like the original Mac.

01:32:56   But it is a great way to organize a complete hierarchy of everything the app does.

01:33:03   By having a reasonably limited number of menus that can fit in a menu bar, and you have to give them a title, it forces the developer to sort of organize them into, I don't know, what's the most menus an app can have reasonably?

01:33:20   Maybe nine or 10, but for the most, most apps have five, six, seven menus.

01:33:24   Some of them are standard, and everybody knows what to expect in the file and edit and probably a view menus.

01:33:32   The window menu is pretty standard across all apps.

01:33:35   You kind of know which stuff goes there.

01:33:37   And so you end up with this consistency across all Mac apps for so many things.

01:33:43   Like, how do you print?

01:33:44   Oh, you go up to file, print, right?

01:33:46   You know where it is.

01:33:47   How do you change the toolbar, right?

01:33:49   You go to view, customize toolbar, and then you can customize the toolbar in your Mac app.

01:33:55   It's such a great organizing feature, and it seemed like Apple was de-emphasizing it.

01:34:00   And I kind of get it for some users that a certain level of basic functionality should be in the main menu, but they lost the balance of, hey, everything could be a control in the windows, and you don't need to worry about the menus.

01:34:16   And it's like, no, the menu is where an app can be rich and full and have a bunch of features that are more esoteric but important to some number of people.

01:34:25   And I also think it should look cool.

01:34:28   I don't know.

01:34:28   And I don't think it looks cool anymore, and I think that's sad.

01:34:31   Yeah.

01:34:32   It just seems, I mean, it's part of the whole, they seem to be, like, trying to make any number of interface elements hidden.

01:34:39   Yeah.

01:34:40   And it's not like we really need to screen real estate anymore.

01:34:43   It just seems like it's in order to make it more like the phone.

01:34:47   And I don't think that's as worthy a goal as they seem to think it is.

01:34:52   I'll say that.

01:34:53   Yeah.

01:34:53   Have you been using iOS 27 at all?

01:34:56   Just a little bit.

01:34:57   I have it on my 13 Mini.

01:34:59   How's it run?

01:35:02   So not that much.

01:35:03   But I have played around with it a little bit.

01:35:07   And it doesn't seem, it seems obviously much less different than Tahoe does.

01:35:13   I don't even know.

01:35:14   Does it get Apple Intelligence and Siri AI?

01:35:17   It does.

01:35:19   Well, the 13 Mini, it certainly doesn't get the enhanced stuff.

01:35:23   Like the voices, right?

01:35:24   And I'm still waiting.

01:35:25   Last time I looked, I was still waitlisted.

01:35:27   Oh, really?

01:35:29   I will say that I know, and I still don't think Apple's documented it anywhere, but I did it since the last episode of this show.

01:35:36   Last time I talked to Jason, I was running iOS 27 on a spare phone, but my main iPhone was still on iPhone or iOS 26.

01:35:47   But I upgraded both to the other one, the main one to 27, because the Siri AI is so good, so useful, I don't care what other bugs there are.

01:35:56   I'll use it all summer at this point.

01:35:58   So starting with beta 2, I'm running it.

01:36:00   But I had done the thing where I upgraded it to the developer beta of iOS 26.6, because they said that if you do that, it'll do the indexing.

01:36:13   It'll do the pre-indexing, yeah, right.

01:36:14   Yeah.

01:36:15   And it's totally true.

01:36:17   So when I had upgraded to 26.6 at WWDC or before WWDC, I don't know, it had been on 26.6 for a while.

01:36:26   When I upgraded my spare phone to iOS 27, it took a full week, I think from Monday literally till Sunday, for the indexing to finish.

01:36:36   It took six or seven days.

01:36:37   With my main phone, which, if anything, has more stuff stored on it, it was instant.

01:36:45   As soon as it finished installing iOS 27, Siri AI was ready to go, fully indexed.

01:36:51   So that's cool.

01:36:52   And you don't even have to do a beta.

01:36:54   If you're waiting like a sane person for the real version of iOS 27 in September, 26.6 will surely be out any day now, right?

01:37:03   Probably, I don't know, either by the end of this month or early in July.

01:37:06   And you could just never put a beta on your phone.

01:37:10   And by the time iOS 27 rolls out, you'll never, the indexing thing will be a problem that only those of us who installed developer betas in June ever had to worry about.

01:37:19   Right.

01:37:20   Super, super cool.

01:37:21   And I just continued to be amazed at the little things that Siri AI can pick up.

01:37:27   Just, you know, and again, it's like, oh, of course an AI can do that.

01:37:30   But it's like, that's a cool thing.

01:37:31   Do you remember there was a Kickstarter project last year for a book called Go Computer Now, I think is the name of the book.

01:37:39   But a guy named Ben Zotto wrote it, and it was about a computer company I'd never heard of before, the Sphere Computer Company from, like, the early days of the PC industry, like, 1980.

01:37:50   And I linked to his Kickstarter.

01:37:55   Now that you said, yeah, okay.

01:37:56   Yeah.

01:37:56   So, yeah, I'll put it in the show notes.

01:37:58   But you can go to, if you're just listening, gocomputernow.com is the name of his website.

01:38:04   And I linked to his Kickstarter, and I bought the book, and it's delightful, and it's everything you'd want.

01:38:10   For all I know, Glenn Fleishman helped him.

01:38:14   I bet he did.

01:38:14   I wouldn't be surprised.

01:38:16   Glenn helps anybody making a book and anybody doing a Kickstarter.

01:38:19   But anyway, this guy who wrote the book, Ben Zotto, he had emailed me over the years.

01:38:24   He had, like, an iPhone app years ago.

01:38:25   I think he sponsored an episode of the show in 2013 or something.

01:38:31   There was another tier of the Kickstarter where you got, like, coffee mugs, and I guess he had extras.

01:38:36   I didn't spring for that one.

01:38:37   But he sent me a coffee mug and a very nice little paper letter on paper thanking me for having linked to his Kickstarter and that when I linked to it, it goosed the sales significantly.

01:38:48   And he sent me a nice little mug, and it was a delightful little gift to get in the mail.

01:38:52   I was very pleased as punch.

01:38:54   But, you know, I wanted to write back to him, but it was a paper letter.

01:38:57   So I scanned it, put it in Apple Notes as a scan, and then asked a question.

01:39:03   It was like he said why the mug was green.

01:39:06   And I was like, hey, Siri, why was the Go Computer now mug green?

01:39:11   And it's like bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop.

01:39:14   And then it said it was to match the PCB board color of the Sphere computer, which was from the letter.

01:39:21   It was in the printed letter he sent me.

01:39:23   It answered the question from something I had scanned and put into Apple Notes.

01:39:27   It wasn't even in text.

01:39:29   And, you know, then sent Ben a lovely...

01:39:31   That's pretty cool.

01:39:32   Or I said love.

01:39:33   I don't know.

01:39:33   His letter to me was lovely.

01:39:34   I sent him like two, you know, thank you.

01:39:37   Coffee.

01:39:39   And I got a picture of me drinking coffee out of the mug.

01:39:43   I was like, coffee good.

01:39:44   I don't know.

01:39:45   But it was a very nice thing.

01:39:46   But you can ask...

01:39:48   If you have, like, scans of things in your Apple Notes, you can ask questions about what's in the scans.

01:39:53   And it freaking knows.

01:39:55   It's amazing.

01:39:55   It's absolutely incredible.

01:39:57   I just continue to be impressed by it.

01:39:59   More like this from Apple, please.

01:40:01   That's probably...

01:40:02   I mean, like, I keep a note...

01:40:03   I have a note that's called, where the fuck is it?

01:40:05   Yeah, yeah.

01:40:07   And so I just put in, like, things that I'm putting away and think, I'll want this six months from now.

01:40:13   And I will not have any idea where I put it.

01:40:15   So I jot it down in an Apple Note.

01:40:19   And that's probably perfect for, like, I could just say, hey, where is this thing?

01:40:23   Yeah.

01:40:24   I swear to God, it's going to work.

01:40:25   It is the most game-changing thing that's happening to these computers that I can remember.

01:40:33   And I can already see it.

01:40:36   Here it is.

01:40:36   It's not even the end of June yet.

01:40:37   And I'm already taking it for granted.

01:40:39   The only thing...

01:40:42   Yeah, this is the problem with installing a beta on a device that you're not using on a regular basis.

01:40:46   Right.

01:40:46   It's like you don't get that immediacy.

01:40:49   And I don't know.

01:40:51   I wouldn't be surprised if I do get stupid and just install the beta of Golden Gate on my main, the M1 Max MacBook Pro I talked about earlier on the show, by the end of summer.

01:41:03   Because I'm already running into situations where I want to ask questions of the new Siri AI, but I'm working.

01:41:11   I'm on that computer, and that's still running Sequoia.

01:41:13   And so I'm literally pulling my iPhone out of my pocket to do things.

01:41:19   And I'm like, oh, I can't wait until I have this on my Mac.

01:41:22   And then that part of my brain that installed disk doubler without any backup...

01:41:29   There you go.

01:41:31   Be that guy.

01:41:32   That rewrote in a non-reversible way the entire format of my hard drive with no backup.

01:41:41   That part of my brain...

01:41:43   It can't be that bad.

01:41:44   It can't be that bad.

01:41:46   But that's what the part of the brain was like.

01:41:48   It was like, hey, you did that back in the 90s.

01:41:51   Why don't you install Golden Gate now?

01:41:53   Then you could ask Siri AI on every computer.

01:41:56   I wasn't even backing things up back then either, too.

01:41:59   It's like...

01:41:59   You couldn't.

01:42:00   It was too freaking expensive.

01:42:01   There was no way to do it.

01:42:01   Yeah.

01:42:02   Right.

01:42:02   It's like you dragged some important files onto a zip disk, but that was about it.

01:42:07   I remember when I first was able to...

01:42:10   Because Adam Angst at Tidbits was always sort of the eat your veggies, take your vitamins

01:42:16   sort of writer in the Mac world who's talking about backups.

01:42:20   And it used to be...

01:42:22   I forget the companies, but there was a software and then you could buy these tapes.

01:42:26   Remember, you'd buy like little...

01:42:28   Oh, yeah.

01:42:29   Because discs, the idea of backing up to discs, it wasn't just...

01:42:34   Discs were too insanely expensive.

01:42:36   We had those at work.

01:42:36   I never had a tape system at home, for sure.

01:42:39   I wound up buying one and it was such a pain in the ass that I never used the goddamn thing.

01:42:45   Yeah.

01:42:45   I was like...

01:42:46   It was just money pissed away down the drain because I was like, I'm not doing this.

01:42:51   This is too big of a pain in the ass.

01:42:53   Yeah.

01:42:53   No, I didn't back up.

01:42:55   It gave us...

01:42:56   As irresponsible as it is today not to back up.

01:43:00   It wasn't so irresponsible then because it just was impossible financially.

01:43:05   And like I said, even if I could have afforded another 40 megabyte hard disk, I would have

01:43:12   filled it up with new stuff.

01:43:13   The idea of buying, spending what would have been the unfathomable expense of a spare 40 megabyte

01:43:20   hard drive and then using it just to duplicate the one in my computer.

01:43:26   I mean, I'd see the sense of it.

01:43:29   I mean, we may be getting to the point where it's going to become too expensive again.

01:43:32   Right.

01:43:32   And meanwhile, I mean, I was like a Mac nerd.

01:43:36   And then for a couple of years, fresh out of college, I was doing like...

01:43:40   I was like working for a service here in Philadelphia where...

01:43:43   I forget.

01:43:44   Was it Mac specialists?

01:43:45   Mac?

01:43:45   Something like that.

01:43:46   But it was like a temp type job where...

01:43:50   But I could...

01:43:51   It was like 25 bucks an hour or something where you could like...

01:43:54   Somebody...

01:43:55   Some design firm has a Mac that won't boot.

01:43:58   And they don't have anybody who knows how to fix it.

01:44:01   They'd call Mac specialists and they had nerds like me that they'd call and say, can you go

01:44:06   there tomorrow morning and fix their computer?

01:44:08   And I would go and fix their computer.

01:44:10   I knew I was...

01:44:11   I knew all the things, all the keyboard shortcuts.

01:44:13   I knew I'd bring a spare disc with utilities on it that could fix stuff.

01:44:19   I had so many friends all over the 90s and they'd be like, oh, my Mac won't boot.

01:44:24   And then it was like, oh, your hard disk is corrupt.

01:44:26   You've lost everything.

01:44:28   And it would just happen all the time.

01:44:32   And in the meantime, I had no backups.

01:44:33   And I was like, well, it won't happen to me.

01:44:35   And it didn't happen to me.

01:44:38   So, you know, what lesson did I learn?

01:44:40   None, of course.

01:44:41   But I forget what those damn tapes were called.

01:44:44   But they were such a pain in the ass.

01:44:46   It was impossible.

01:44:47   I mean, it just...

01:44:48   Dat, right?

01:44:50   Were they dat?

01:44:50   Yeah, something like that.

01:44:52   And I forget.

01:44:53   Retrospect was the software.

01:44:54   Was that just the music thing?

01:44:54   I can't remember now.

01:44:55   Retrospect was the software.

01:44:58   Yeah.

01:44:58   Yeah.

01:44:59   Yep.

01:45:00   Terrible.

01:45:01   It was horrible.

01:45:02   I mean, it served a good purpose.

01:45:04   And I'm sure people who actually did use it and then did have a corrupt hard drive were happy that they did it.

01:45:11   But I was like, I just can't be bothered.

01:45:14   I don't know.

01:45:14   It's just...

01:45:17   It's a long time ago.

01:45:18   But anyway, I guess that's the show.

01:45:21   Good talking to you.

01:45:22   That's the show.

01:45:22   Yeah.

01:45:23   Good talking to you, too.

01:45:24   Hey, how about this?

01:45:25   Is there anything you're watching on TV to recommend?

01:45:27   Oh, boy.

01:45:29   Do you like scary shows?

01:45:31   Sort of.

01:45:32   There's this show called From, which I had never heard of until a month or two ago.

01:45:37   And I'm only three episodes in because I don't really like scary stuff.

01:45:43   But I like this show.

01:45:44   I think it's really well made.

01:45:46   I mean, at least the first three episodes are really well made.

01:45:48   And I've heard good things about it.

01:45:49   But it was just weird to me.

01:45:50   Like, here's this show that's just finishing its fourth season, I think.

01:45:54   And it's...

01:45:54   I mean, the reason...

01:45:55   It's on MGM.

01:45:56   So that's the reason why no one's ever heard of it.

01:45:58   It's a spooky show.

01:45:59   It's definitely scary.

01:46:01   But I think it's pretty good.

01:46:02   It's a little bit, like, lost in a way.

01:46:04   But...

01:46:05   Yeah.

01:46:05   I have bad news for you.

01:46:08   I watched that show.

01:46:10   Oh, did you?

01:46:12   I enjoyed the entirety of season one as much as it seems like you are.

01:46:16   And then came season two.

01:46:19   Oh, okay.

01:46:20   Well, we'll see if I make it anyway.

01:46:24   But...

01:46:24   I do think my wife and I...

01:46:26   I think Amy and I watched season two to its end.

01:46:28   But I've...

01:46:30   Let's just say that I did not realize there was a season three or four.

01:46:33   Yeah.

01:46:33   Yeah.

01:46:34   And I think it's been renewed for a final season five.

01:46:37   But I did enjoy season one.

01:46:39   Yeah.

01:46:40   Okay.

01:46:40   Okay.

01:46:40   I thought you were going to suggest a show that we started watching last night.

01:46:45   Widow's Bay.

01:46:47   Widow's Bay is terrific.

01:46:49   On Apple TV.

01:46:49   Widow's Bay is a little scary, but I don't think it's not scary.

01:46:52   It's not scary like From, I don't think.

01:46:54   And it's also just hilarious.

01:46:56   That's what I heard is that it is kind of spooky and kind of funny and kind of pulls both

01:47:04   off.

01:47:04   And...

01:47:06   Yeah.

01:47:06   Two episodes in, all three of us, me, Amy, and Jonas, agreed that it was excellent and

01:47:13   we really liked it and can't wait to watch more.

01:47:15   And does a...

01:47:17   The cool thing that I think a lot of Apple TV shows do, which is episodes are like often

01:47:24   35, 36 minutes, which is like, hey, that's...

01:47:28   It's actually...

01:47:29   It doesn't make any sense in the old days of terrestrial TV where a show had to be half an

01:47:34   hour with commercials or an hour with commercials.

01:47:37   It's like this no man's land, but it's actually a really good episode length.

01:47:41   It...

01:47:41   Yeah.

01:47:42   Yeah.

01:47:42   It's just enough, right?

01:47:44   Yeah.

01:47:44   Yeah.

01:47:44   Yeah.

01:47:45   Really like the show.

01:47:46   Without being too late.

01:47:46   There's no filler.

01:47:47   It's all neat.

01:47:48   Two episodes in, I thought it was pretty scary, very funny, and I love the way it looks.

01:47:53   It has like a sort of film look to it.

01:47:57   But without looking gimmicky, like it's trying to look like it's 20 or 30 years old, but it

01:48:04   does...

01:48:04   Yeah.

01:48:04   It just sort of doesn't look digitally shot or pristine.

01:48:08   It's like...

01:48:09   Yeah.

01:48:09   I don't know.

01:48:09   Noise and grain are back.

01:48:12   And they make it seem old by a simple explanation that there's no cellular service on the island.

01:48:19   Yes.

01:48:20   That's right.

01:48:20   It's as easy as that.

01:48:22   There's just like, there's no cell service.

01:48:23   So nobody carries a cell phone.

01:48:25   Yeah.

01:48:26   Well, it works.

01:48:27   I don't know.

01:48:27   I really like it.

01:48:28   And I can see why people have raved about it on Apple TV.

01:48:32   And it's just...

01:48:34   I don't know.

01:48:34   And already two episodes, just two episodes in, and I can tell that there's going to be

01:48:39   more new cast members to come because it's like a whole genre.

01:48:43   It probably...

01:48:44   I don't know.

01:48:44   Going back to at least to...

01:48:46   What was the great David Lynch show?

01:48:49   I can't believe I'm forgetting the name.

01:48:50   Twin Peaks.

01:48:51   Right.

01:48:51   It's sort of a Twin Peaks-y sort of...

01:48:54   Yeah.

01:48:54   Oh, it's town full of...

01:48:56   Everybody's crazy in this town.

01:48:57   Weirdos.

01:48:58   Yeah.

01:48:58   They're all delightful weirdos.

01:49:00   Yeah.

01:49:00   Right.

01:49:01   Everybody is a delightful weirdo.

01:49:03   And oh, they're going to...

01:49:04   We're just going to meet new weirdos every episode.

01:49:07   And I really appreciate that genre.

01:49:10   And I do think actors love getting roles like that.

01:49:16   I just feel like...

01:49:17   And again, we're only two episodes in.

01:49:19   I have no idea what happens to her.

01:49:20   But there's like this terrible, terrible waitress named Kathy.

01:49:24   And I just think, oh, my God.

01:49:26   I love her.

01:49:27   But I think, oh, my God.

01:49:29   I would be just as...

01:49:30   I would be so mad if...

01:49:32   I just know how every single customer in this restaurant feels when you realize Kathy is your

01:49:37   waitress.

01:49:37   And I just couldn't help but think when the episode ended, I was like, oh, that actress just

01:49:43   had the...

01:49:44   When she got that role, had the luckiest day of her entire life.

01:49:47   Because it is...

01:49:48   She is so chewing up scenes.

01:49:50   It's just unbelievable.

01:49:51   She might only have four lines in a script, but it's like, oh, those are like four really

01:49:57   good lines.

01:49:57   And I love the show.

01:49:58   So kudos to Apple TV.

01:50:00   Yes, definitely, definitely seconded.

01:50:02   That's a good one.

01:50:03   Yeah, that is.

01:50:04   I mean, one more.

01:50:04   We watched Legends on Netflix, which was a British show that was on PBS, I think, for a while.

01:50:11   And now it's now made its way to...

01:50:13   It's one season and it's based on a true story.

01:50:15   And it's made by the same people who made The Gold, if you ever watched that.

01:50:20   Nope, didn't watch that one either.

01:50:21   Also a very good show about a gold heist in Britain in the early 80s.

01:50:26   Oh, no, I did watch that.

01:50:27   Was that real?

01:50:27   Was that a documentary?

01:50:30   It's not a documentary, but it's based on a true story.

01:50:33   No, yeah, I did watch that one.

01:50:35   Yeah, that's right.

01:50:36   Based on a true story, yeah.

01:50:37   Yeah, and so Legends is similarly done, and I think The Gold was really good.

01:50:43   So it's been a good show.

01:50:45   Okay.

01:50:45   I should thank our sponsors, I guess, right?

01:50:48   Probably.

01:50:48   I always try to do it from memory.

01:50:50   We had Coax, right?

01:50:52   CoaxTheApp.com, which is a super delightful, very fun front-end app for your Plex server,

01:50:59   which I can't stop raving about.

01:51:01   Even Realities, where you can get smart glasses and a smart ring that goes with the glasses

01:51:08   at EvenRealities.com, promo code TALKSHOW.

01:51:12   And Squarespace at Squarespace.com slash TALKSHOW.

01:51:16   And apparently they make websites, or help you make websites now.

01:51:20   Good stuff.

01:51:22   All right, John, thanks, and thanks for the recommendations, and talk to you soon.