Upgrade

00:00:09 ◼   ► From Relay, this is Upgrade, episode six hundred and forty for October 5th, 2026.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace and Factor.

00:00:18 ◼   ► My name is Mike Hurley.

00:00:19 ◼   ► I'm Jason Snell.

00:00:20 ◼   ► Hi, Jason.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hi, Mike.

00:00:21 ◼   ► How are you?

00:00:21 ◼   ► I'm good.

00:00:22 ◼   ► We're sitting in a hotel room in Memphis.

00:00:23 ◼   ► We're actually too far away from each other to do a high five, so

00:00:26 ◼   ► we have to pretend.

00:00:26 ◼   ► We could do it like a little finger.

00:00:28 ◼   ► We touch we touch fingers.

00:00:29 ◼   ► Okay.

00:00:29 ◼   ► If you watch the video on YouTube, you got to see that.

00:00:32 ◼   ► That was quite a thing.

00:00:33 ◼   ► Um we are recording together live in Memphis.

00:00:36 ◼   ► It's Saturday.

00:00:37 ◼   ► Uh and that actually leads me into my snort talk question.

00:00:40 ◼   ► Jason how are you feeling today?

00:00:43 ◼   ► I'm feeling great.

00:00:44 ◼   ► You feel great?

00:00:44 ◼   ► I feel great.

00:00:45 ◼   ► Wow, look at you.

00:00:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:00:46 ◼   ► What a show off.

00:00:47 ◼   ► I feel terrible.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Okay.

00:00:50 ◼   ► All right.

00:00:51 ◼   ► So we did the podcast with them yesterday.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Um, I'm happy you're feeling Did you get a good night's sleep?

00:00:57 ◼   ► Uh no.

00:00:58 ◼   ► Actually, let's check on in on Jason's sleep score.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Okay.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Well how's Jason's sleep score?

00:01:02 ◼   ► We can do s live sleep score checks.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Fifty-three.

00:01:05 ◼   ► Okay.

00:01:06 ◼   ► Pretty good.

00:01:07 ◼   ► That's bad.

00:01:07 ◼   ► Actually terrible.

00:01:08 ◼   ► Low.

00:01:09 ◼   ► Very, very poor.

00:01:11 ◼   ► Very poor indeed.

00:01:12 ◼   ► My sleep score,

00:01:14 ◼   ► seventy eight.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Ah.

00:01:15 ◼   ► Okay.

00:01:16 ◼   ► It says.

00:01:17 ◼   ► Great.

00:01:18 ◼   ► Well, I didn't

00:01:20 ◼   ► got about six hours of sleep.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Sleep doesn'thing for how you feel in the day, is what we've learned No,

00:01:24 ◼   ► no, I'm on my second diet mountain due and I'm that'll do it.

00:01:28 ◼   ► And I'm riding high.

00:01:29 ◼   ► That'll do it.

00:01:29 ◼   ► Yep.

00:01:30 ◼   ► If you'd like to send in a snow talk to help us open a

00:01:32 ◼   ► future episode of the show, just go to upgradefeedback.com.

00:01:36 ◼   ► Uh we're here in Memphis.

00:01:37 ◼   ► Uh we're recording on Saturday.

00:01:39 ◼   ► We're talking about the podcast a thon which was yesterday as we were recording

00:01:42 ◼   ► this because all month we have been raising uh money for St.

00:01:45 ◼   ► Jude because we are still in extended September right now.

00:01:48 ◼   ► Yes.

00:01:49 ◼   ► Um you actually still have if you're listening to the show on Monday, uh

00:01:53 ◼   ► or I think maybe a little bit of Tuesday, there is still time to

00:01:56 ◼   ► make a donation to Saint Jude.

00:01:57 ◼   ► Uh you go to Saint Jude.org slash relay.

00:02:00 ◼   ► Um as we are recording right now, two important things have happened.

00:02:03 ◼   ► We passed our fundraising goal of seven hundred thousand dollars for the month.

00:02:07 ◼   ► Thank you so much to everybody that's made a donation.

00:02:10 ◼   ► We've also passed five point five million dollars lifetime raised for the kids of

00:02:14 ◼   ► St.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Jude.

00:02:15 ◼   ► Um the Podcast at on was a wonderful experience as it always is.

00:02:20 ◼   ► We had we had a lot of fun.

00:02:22 ◼   ► We had a great time last night.

00:02:23 ◼   ► Uh it's available for you to watch uh whenever you want uh over on

00:02:28 ◼   ► YouTube.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Uh you can, you know, break it up over many, many, many viewing sessions.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Yeah, binge yeah, you could do a binge, twelve hour binge, or you could

00:02:36 ◼   ► do it uh watch an hour uh for twelve days.

00:02:38 ◼   ► An hour a day for twelve days.

00:02:40 ◼   ► That is that the recommendation?

00:02:41 ◼   ► On the twelfth day of relay, the podcast a thon gave to me.

00:02:47 ◼   ► What did it give at the end?

00:02:48 ◼   ► You touched some things in some boxes.

00:02:50 ◼   ► That happened at the end.

00:02:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:02:52 ◼   ► Something like that.

00:02:52 ◼   ► Something like that.

00:02:54 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:02:55 ◼   ► At this time I touched things in boxes.

00:02:57 ◼   ► I didn't

00:02:59 ◼   ► I mean I touched the boxes, but that doesn't.

00:03:00 ◼   ► That's not the that's not the problem, is it?

00:03:03 ◼   ► Uh yeah, we're just we're s just super thankful uh that the relay community

00:03:07 ◼   ► continues to come out in the force that it does.

00:03:09 ◼   ► You know, like me and Steven were looking at this for many, many, many

00:03:13 ◼   ► years in a row, we've been incredibly consistent with the amount of money that

00:03:17 ◼   ► has been raised by this community like over the last many years.

00:03:21 ◼   ► Um, and we're just super thankful um that you continue to support this organization

00:03:27 ◼   ► that means so much to us.

00:03:29 ◼   ► So go and check out if you want to make a donation, you can

00:03:32 ◼   ► donation any time.

00:03:33 ◼   ► If our campaign's stupid though you can put it there.

00:03:35 ◼   ► And go check out the podcasters on as well.

00:03:38 ◼   ► So it's a good time.

00:03:39 ◼   ► Good time had by all.

00:03:41 ◼   ► Yes, I think so.

00:03:42 ◼   ► Jason, you reviewed Shop Different by Ron Johnson for the Wall Street Journal again.

00:03:49 ◼   ► Oh my god, I'm in the presence of a two time Wall Street Journal

00:03:52 ◼   ► book reviewer.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:03:53 ◼   ► I guess they thought my other review was fine, so they asked Ron Johnson's

00:03:57 ◼   ► book.

00:03:57 ◼   ► Well obviously more than fine.

00:03:59 ◼   ► Why does it just have to be fine?

00:04:00 ◼   ► Why can't be they thought it was good.

00:04:02 ◼   ► Okay.

00:04:03 ◼   ► Acceptable enough to give me a second assignment.

00:04:05 ◼   ► That's better.

00:04:06 ◼   ► I think that's what all I mean by that.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I'll take that.

00:04:08 ◼   ► Um yeah, they they um they asked me and I read it.

00:04:13 ◼   ► I mean, I read it, I feel like I read it like three months

00:04:15 ◼   ► ago now.

00:04:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like you wrote this review ages ago.

00:04:20 ◼   ► I wrote this review a month ago, but I had already I had to

00:04:22 ◼   ► refresh my memory because I'd already read it like three months two months before

00:04:26 ◼   ► that or something like that.

00:04:28 ◼   ► Um so uh yeah, Ron Johnson has a book I think it's now called

00:04:32 ◼   ► Shop Different, where he tells the story, he tells his story, sort of like

00:04:36 ◼   ► and how what led him to Apple.

00:04:37 ◼   ► And then he tells the story about how he and Steve Jobs and it

00:04:40 ◼   ► was very much a kind of collaborative experience because Apple didn't really have a

00:04:44 ◼   ► lot of retail experience and Steve Jobs wanted to do retail stores.

00:04:48 ◼   ► And Ron Johnson brought kind of a lot of knowledge to that that Steve

00:04:52 ◼   ► Jobs didn't have.

00:04:52 ◼   ► And there's a lot of great Steve Jobs stories in there about uh Jeron

00:04:57 ◼   ► Johnson having ideas and and Steve, you know, being really upset that he was

00:05:01 ◼   ► like, I don't want to, that's dumb.

00:05:03 ◼   ► And then like Steve would think about it for a little bit and then

00:05:06 ◼   ► he would be like, Okay, we're gonna do that.

00:05:08 ◼   ► And then the um the anecdote that I really like is um Ron Johnson

00:05:13 ◼   ► suggests the name Genius bar and the geniuses for the Apple store.

00:05:18 ◼   ► And Steve Jobs says that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

00:05:21 ◼   ► And like two days later, their general counsel Apple's general counsel, is outside Ron

00:05:27 ◼   ► Johnson's door when he gets there in the morning.

00:05:28 ◼   ► And he's like uh oh, okay, what is this?

00:05:31 ◼   ► And and uh she says to him, What in the world is a genius?

00:05:36 ◼   ► Oh.

00:05:37 ◼   ► And that's the moment where he was like, oh, guess Steve decided that was

00:05:40 ◼   ► a good name.

00:05:42 ◼   ► It's interesting because I actually have never really liked the name Genius.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Okay.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Well I guess Steve.

00:05:49 ◼   ► Steve agreed with you un until he didn't.

00:05:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:05:52 ◼   ► I mean it works when you have it, but like it's an odd odd.

00:05:57 ◼   ► I think it's very clever and it's

00:05:59 ◼   ► the yeah, that's the point of it.

00:06:01 ◼   ► Um but uh it also it works.

00:06:03 ◼   ► It does work.

00:06:04 ◼   ► Like it I don't know why it doesn't mean it just feels too much,

00:06:09 ◼   ► but it obviously does the job.

00:06:10 ◼   ► It does the job, you know what it means.

00:06:11 ◼   ► Yeah, and there's a great moment where um they've gotten pretty far down the

00:06:14 ◼   ► line of what the Apple store is gonna be.

00:06:17 ◼   ► And then Ron Johnson is at a meeting where Steve Jobs is recounting the

00:06:21 ◼   ► uh that they're they're working on the digital hub strategy.

00:06:24 ◼   ► So this is gonna be two thousand ish.

00:06:28 ◼   ► And And Ron Johnson goes home and he's like, hmm, this is not what

00:06:34 ◼   ► we're setting up in the stores.

00:06:36 ◼   ► This this idea that the Mac is at the center of all these other

00:06:38 ◼   ► devices is not how our stores are laid out at all.

00:06:41 ◼   ► And the next morning He's driving the they they he would drive in the

00:06:46 ◼   ► morning, um, on some mornings to the warehouse where they had their like staged

00:06:51 ◼   ► Apple store that they were basically working out what an Apple store was gonna

00:06:54 ◼   ► be like.

00:06:55 ◼   ► And and Steve and Ron would be there and the retail team would be

00:06:58 ◼   ► there.

00:06:59 ◼   ► And as they're going out to the warehouse, um, or before they even head

00:07:05 ◼   ► out, he says, We gotta read we gotta change what we're doing.

00:07:08 ◼   ► And Steve's like, What are you talking about?

00:07:10 ◼   ► And he says, Digital help strategy.

00:07:12 ◼   ► It totally changes what should we should be doing.

00:07:13 ◼   ► And Steve Jobs' like, God no, you know, we spend so much time, we

00:07:16 ◼   ► can't do this.

00:07:17 ◼   ► It's fine the way it is, whatever.

00:07:19 ◼   ► And then and and he kinda yells at him and then they they drive

00:07:23 ◼   ► over and the drive is silent.

00:07:25 ◼   ► And Ron's like, Well, this is awkward.

00:07:28 ◼   ► And they get there and they get everybody together and Steve says, Well, Ron

00:07:34 ◼   ► here says that we've got to throw everything away because digital hub strategy needs

00:07:41 ◼   ► to lead to a complete reorg of what we're planning here.

00:07:44 ◼   ► And you know, he's right.

00:07:46 ◼   ► So listen to Ron, good luck.

00:07:48 ◼   ► And he walks away.

00:07:49 ◼   ► Wow.

00:07:50 ◼   ► And it's one of those moments of like Steve Jobs ha Steve Jobs, you

00:07:54 ◼   ► know, we talk about this um

00:07:57 ◼   ► idea that people don't like to be surprised.

00:08:00 ◼   ► And this is a great example of that.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Like Steve Jobs clearly He was very resistant

00:08:07 ◼   ► at when given something new.

00:08:09 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Like, mm-mm, I don't know.

00:08:12 ◼   ► But it was really, I think, him kind of

00:08:16 ◼   ► processing and being cranky, being a cranky guy Yeah, like your instant reaction is

00:08:20 ◼   ► no, I don't want to change.

00:08:22 ◼   ► Right?

00:08:22 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:23 ◼   ► And and I think that is natural.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And and you're like and you want to have maybe apply some skepticism to

00:08:28 ◼   ► it.

00:08:29 ◼   ► And he knows how much money's been spent on this.

00:08:31 ◼   ► I mean he does how much work they've done on all of this.

00:08:34 ◼   ► But then he um but I think one of Steve Jobs's uh special powers

00:08:38 ◼   ► was his ability to look at that and then say, Hmm, actually, we should

00:08:43 ◼   ► do that.

00:08:43 ◼   ► And once he once he gets over the hump, he is the strongest uh

00:08:47 ◼   ► proponent of whatever it is.

00:08:49 ◼   ► So there's a bunch of uh interesting stuff like that in the book.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I think he he wears it, uh Ron Johnson does about going to JCPenney.

00:08:56 ◼   ► I think he felt like he had sort of done everything he needed to

00:08:58 ◼   ► do at Apple.

00:08:59 ◼   ► Um and wanted to try.

00:09:02 ◼   ► And he's a believer.

00:09:03 ◼   ► One thing you get in the book is he's retail.

00:09:05 ◼   ► Like he his whole beginning of the book is like, Oh, I love I

00:09:08 ◼   ► love going to department stores and shopping malls.

00:09:10 ◼   ► Like it's just his thing, which is like, I mean, so he got to

00:09:14 ◼   ► do his thing.

00:09:14 ◼   ► But then he gets this opportunity to go to JCPenney.

00:09:17 ◼   ► And what I say in the review, it's how I end the Wall Street

00:09:20 ◼   ► Journal review, is basically like he had defined one of the great retail organizations

00:09:26 ◼   ► of the twenty first century and then like he decided maybe he could, you

00:09:31 ◼   ► know He wants to run the show.

00:09:32 ◼   ► Revive he wants to run the show and he wants to revive maybe what

00:09:35 ◼   ► he in his heart felt was like a classic department store brand of the

00:09:39 ◼   ► 20th century.

00:09:40 ◼   ► And I think that that's kind of the challenge there is that he had

00:09:43 ◼   ► actually done the thing, which was make the Apple store.

00:09:45 ◼   ► And now he's trying to kind of like do this thing that's the past

00:09:48 ◼   ► now and is fading away.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And they were very resistant to him but he admits that it was kind

00:09:51 ◼   ► of like a bad situation.

00:09:53 ◼   ► And uh yeah, I I I don't know.

00:09:55 ◼   ► Also it's all intertwined with the Steve Jobs dying because like he literally is

00:09:59 ◼   ► told, Steve Jobs says, I'm dying and can you stay until I'm gone?

00:10:04 ◼   ► Don't leave now.

00:10:05 ◼   ► Can you stay at while as long as I'm still here and Ron Johnson,

00:10:08 ◼   ► who's going to be the CEO of JC Penny, is like, yes, it stays

00:10:11 ◼   ► for six months.

00:10:12 ◼   ► So it's a very emotional.

00:10:14 ◼   ► He talks about saying goodbye to Steve on day before he died.

00:10:18 ◼   ► Um, there's a lot of that in there too.

00:10:20 ◼   ► But um but yeah, he owns the JCPenney stuff and you know a and

00:10:25 ◼   ► yet I I walked away from it sort of thinking like it was kinda

00:10:28 ◼   ► in his nature.

00:10:29 ◼   ► He kinda had to try.

00:10:30 ◼   ► But but also he was, I think, chasing this is me, I think chasing

00:10:35 ◼   ► an ideal that was already gone, already had been made obsolete.

00:10:39 ◼   ► Um, but he was so idealistic about retail and about department stores and all

00:10:43 ◼   ► that that he really wanted to give it a go and he had enough

00:10:46 ◼   ► cachet because of the Apple stores to take on that role and it just

00:10:49 ◼   ► didn't it's like maybe there's even an like an argument that the work he

00:10:53 ◼   ► did at the Apple store is part of the reasons the department stores were

00:10:56 ◼   ► going away.

00:10:57 ◼   ► People were creating new experiences.

00:10:58 ◼   ► That part the department store anymore.

00:11:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:11:01 ◼   ► Like it was a sign of the times and that something like JC Penney

00:11:05 ◼   ► was not gonna take off again, maybe.

00:11:08 ◼   ► Also struck by how Ron Johnson he defined a lot of at least according

00:11:12 ◼   ► to the book, but I believe him, um, defined a lot of what the

00:11:15 ◼   ► Apple store was in a way that Steve Jobs was maybe not thinking big

00:11:18 ◼   ► enough, which is an interesting thing to say about Steve Jobs, because you always

00:11:22 ◼   ► think he thinks big, but I think maybe he didn't think big enough.

00:11:26 ◼   ► Like

00:11:28 ◼   ► Ron Johnson

00:11:30 ◼   ► says, this will be your brand.

00:11:32 ◼   ► He was like, I don't want to be in shopping malls.

00:11:33 ◼   ► And he's like, Do you want to reach people who don't know anything about

00:11:36 ◼   ► Apple?

00:11:36 ◼   ► That's where they are.

00:11:37 ◼   ► And in two thousand, that is where they were.

00:11:40 ◼   ► And, you know, saying the size of the store, he's like the si the

00:11:44 ◼   ► store needs to be big.

00:11:45 ◼   ► It's representation of your brand.

00:11:46 ◼   ► Your brand is is your brand big, Steve?

00:11:48 ◼   ► And Steve's like, Well, yeah, our brand is big.

00:11:50 ◼   ► Is your brand bigger than the gap?

00:11:52 ◼   ► Well, yeah it is.

00:11:53 ◼   ► Well then your stores need to be bigger than the gap, uh was his

00:11:55 ◼   ► argument.

00:11:55 ◼   ► And and he sort of had to drag Steve there a little bit.

00:11:59 ◼   ► But I believe, I think I mentioned this in the review, but like I

00:12:03 ◼   ► really, really believe that the unstated

00:12:07 ◼   ► thing about Apple's revival is the retail stores.

00:12:10 ◼   ► That if you think back, Apple's brand was not even bad.

00:12:16 ◼   ► It was irrelevant in that era because of the rise of Windows PCs.

00:12:20 ◼   ► The Mac was this niche product.

00:12:22 ◼   ► The iPod wasn't out yet.

00:12:24 ◼   ► And when it came out, it wasn't Windows for a couple of years.

00:12:28 ◼   ► But at least people who are curious could go into an Apple store and

00:12:31 ◼   ► see it.

00:12:31 ◼   ► And it by having that retail presence, by having the Apple brand be reachable

00:12:35 ◼   ► by people, it allowed them to sell Macs at iPods and ultimately iPhones.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And I think even with the exact same product set that they had, I

00:12:45 ◼   ► don't think Apple would have been as successful in rehabbing its brand if they

00:12:49 ◼   ► weren't present in um first initially American retail stores in the retail environment and

00:12:55 ◼   ► then ultimately worldwide.

00:12:56 ◼   ► I think it was a huge part.

00:12:58 ◼   ► And Steve Jobs cared a lot about the Apple brand, but you could sort

00:13:02 ◼   ► of see that from Ron Johnson's perspective, he wasn't thinking clearly about what retail

00:13:07 ◼   ► meant for the Apple brand.

00:13:08 ◼   ► And then and that's part of the journey they take together.

00:13:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:12 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:13 ◼   ► And and you can kind of see why, because it's not like he had

00:13:16 ◼   ► something to compare it to.

00:13:18 ◼   ► Like there wasn't a consumer technology company that was owning and operating their own

00:13:23 ◼   ► branded store experience.

00:13:25 ◼   ► The computer stores in that era.

00:13:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:27 ◼   ► Were either Circuit City or Comp USA where there, you know, the where there

00:13:30 ◼   ► was there was a store within a store for Apple, but it was d

00:13:33 ◼   ► it was kind of dusty and nothing.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Or they were like computer stores and they were very

00:13:39 ◼   ► dusty and not interesting.

00:13:40 ◼   ► And that's that's one of the realizations there is Ron Johnson's like, we want

00:13:43 ◼   ► people coming into these stores and not just once every three years, right?

00:13:48 ◼   ► We want them coming in frequent all the time.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Whenever they're mall.

00:13:52 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:13:52 ◼   ► You'll pop into the apple store.

00:13:53 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:13:54 ◼   ► And that was a real leap.

00:13:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:55 ◼   ► But that that is ultimately what they did.

00:13:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:13:58 ◼   ► So people can get the book now, they can read your review on the

00:14:01 ◼   ► Wall Street Journal, and we will have more about this in future episodes of

00:14:04 ◼   ► Design in California as well.

00:14:05 ◼   ► Which this will come up again in the future for us.

00:14:09 ◼   ► Yep.

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00:15:52 ◼   ► So on last week's episode, we had what I thought was a really great

00:15:56 ◼   ► aside when we were talking about Apple's progress to making a fitness band, where

00:16:02 ◼   ► we questioned why does it take Apple years to get a product to market?

00:16:06 ◼   ► Like if they think this is hot, they have the resources they have, why

00:16:10 ◼   ► not rush?

00:16:11 ◼   ► Why not better structure yourself to deliver products quicker?

00:16:16 ◼   ► The next day, Mark Gurman reported John Turnus's plan to do exactly that.

00:16:22 ◼   ► So I'm gonna give some information here.

00:16:24 ◼   ► We're gonna go through it.

00:16:24 ◼   ► So John Turnus is indicating to other executives that he wants the company to

00:16:29 ◼   ► accelerate product development, broaden the range of products that the company makes, and become

00:16:34 ◼   ► a leaner organization that has a much greater focus on engineering.

00:16:38 ◼   ► Doesn't sound like exactly what you would do if you were John Turner?

00:16:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:16:41 ◼   ► Like it feels like if you've come from that organization, he is taking all

00:16:46 ◼   ► of the frustrations that he has had, right?

00:16:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:48 ◼   ► Or may have had.

00:16:50 ◼   ► Comes in and he's like, Great, now it's my turn.

00:16:53 ◼   ► You know, and we're gonna do it the way that we're gonna do it.

00:16:55 ◼   ► So as part of this, the company is considering relying also less on the

00:17:00 ◼   ► traditional spring and fall release schedules releasing more products throughout the year.

00:17:05 ◼   ► So focusing less.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I'm sure stuff like iPhones, right, will continue to be where they are.

00:17:10 ◼   ► I guess we now have these two spots, but not to just focus everything

00:17:15 ◼   ► in that time.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Uh I was listening to

00:17:19 ◼   ► maybe it was dithering and they were talking about releasing products in the fall.

00:17:25 ◼   ► And like if you release something at that time of year, you're indicating the

00:17:29 ◼   ► idea that it's gonna be a Christmas product.

00:17:31 ◼   ► So it has to have a lot of units.

00:17:33 ◼   ► So I was thinking, you know, like we talk about fitness band.

00:17:36 ◼   ► Well, if you can't you know, it's gonna take you time to get it

00:17:39 ◼   ► up and running, why not just start small?

00:17:41 ◼   ► Well then release it in February, right?

00:17:44 ◼   ► Scale up for the rest of the year.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Like you don't have to release every product in the holiday season, so you

00:17:49 ◼   ► sell millions of them.

00:17:50 ◼   ► Um so it's interesting thought.

00:17:52 ◼   ► Uh Turnus also wants to eliminate some middle management positions to aid faster decision

00:17:58 ◼   ► making and keep any engineers in closer contact with key decision makers directly.

00:18:03 ◼   ► There are some reports from German that Turnus has for years felt that Apple

00:18:08 ◼   ► has hired too many people and feels that they do not produce enough to

00:18:12 ◼   ► warrant the size of the organization.

00:18:15 ◼   ► Uh we were talking about this a little bit before and and and I

00:18:19 ◼   ► hadn't read the full report, I read it this morning.

00:18:22 ◼   ► And you had mentioned that you think that Gurman's basically got sources in the

00:18:25 ◼   ► HR team.

00:18:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:26 ◼   ► And as I was reading through that, I'm like, ah yeah, I see it.

00:18:29 ◼   ► It he knows so much about these issues of hiring and and layoffs and

00:18:35 ◼   ► recruitment.

00:18:37 ◼   ► And

00:18:39 ◼   ► I think it's I it always sticks out to me because while Bloomberg is

00:18:42 ◼   ► a business publication.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:18:44 ◼   ► Um sometimes some of the details that German gets feel like they're I don't

00:18:50 ◼   ► know how to say it.

00:18:52 ◼   ► They're they're really like

00:18:54 ◼   ► What almost what you'd expect in like a tech insider uh in industry newsletter,

00:19:02 ◼   ► more than what we tend to look for Bloomberg and Mark German for.

00:19:07 ◼   ► It's almost like hey, what's scuttle bud?

00:19:10 ◼   ► Who who's hiring and who's getting laid off?

00:19:13 ◼   ► And it feels like sports reporting sometimes, right?

00:19:17 ◼   ► Where it's like this key player's going to this one and the transfer window.

00:19:21 ◼   ► Who are the winners and who are the losers?

00:19:22 ◼   ► And I think part of it is just the effect of his sources distorting

00:19:27 ◼   ► his reporting a little bit.

00:19:29 ◼   ► And again or just being what he has to report.

00:19:32 ◼   ► Well, well, this is this is what I mean.

00:19:33 ◼   ► I don't distorted factually.

00:19:35 ◼   ► I mean if if you go fishing for Apple News and your job is

00:19:40 ◼   ► to find Apple News, which Mark Gurman's is, and you come back with a

00:19:44 ◼   ► big basket of HR transactions, you're gonna cover the HR transactions even though I

00:19:53 ◼   ► look at it and think we probably give more emphasis to his reporting on

00:19:57 ◼   ► this subject

00:19:59 ◼   ► than we would otherwise because it's coming from him and because of what else

00:20:03 ◼   ► he reports.

00:20:04 ◼   ► It just feels a little imbalanced to me.

00:20:06 ◼   ► But yes, so he's in there saying there were layoffs in this group.

00:20:09 ◼   ► And again, I had that uh that thought, which is like this is the

00:20:11 ◼   ► kind of thing you see in the newsletter, uh the industry newsletter about oh,

00:20:15 ◼   ► group X at company Y had a layoff and group B executive went to

00:20:20 ◼   ► group C.

00:20:21 ◼   ► And I don't always think that the narratives that get built around that make

00:20:26 ◼   ► a lot of sense.

00:20:28 ◼   ► It's the function of Apple being so secretive, though, that any information is newsworthy.

00:20:32 ◼   ► Of course.

00:20:32 ◼   ► And so that's why like yeah, the idea that there were three hundred layoffs

00:20:35 ◼   ► in the Siri teams, like you can just report that it's like it's not

00:20:39 ◼   ► the exact number, but there you know, oh there's layoffs in the series team,

00:20:42 ◼   ► there's layoffs in in Yeah, no.

00:20:43 ◼   ► And and and um but it just i i the emphasis of it like

00:20:47 ◼   ► I yeah, I texted you when that that came out and I just said,

00:20:50 ◼   ► Well, if we if we ever doubted Mark German's sources in the HR department,

00:20:55 ◼   ► I think you can't read that story and not read it that way.

00:20:57 ◼   ► And that's fine, but it just seems weird because it's much better to get

00:21:01 ◼   ► the why is John Turnus motivated to do what he's doing because I think

00:21:06 ◼   ► I could argue that there are a bunch of places where Apple is seems

00:21:10 ◼   ► to be really understaffed.

00:21:12 ◼   ► Although as an outsider it may be that it's not efficiently staffed.

00:21:15 ◼   ► It may be that the people that it was easy to hire some kinds

00:21:19 ◼   ► of staff and not others.

00:21:20 ◼   ► And that may be true because sometimes I do feel like Apple, right?

00:21:24 ◼   ► We talked about this with their software all the time.

00:21:26 ◼   ► If you're gonna be so ambitious to have all these additional first party apps,

00:21:32 ◼   ► all of these things, we were spending time before we got started trying to

00:21:35 ◼   ► set up Final Cut Camera.

00:21:36 ◼   ► Oh God.

00:21:37 ◼   ► And and we just as the last time we tried this An incredible tool.

00:21:42 ◼   ► That feels like it is built on a house of cards.

00:21:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:45 ◼   ► If one thing goes wrong, everything goes wrong.

00:21:47 ◼   ► We failed to connect a third camera, uh exactly as we failed to connect

00:21:51 ◼   ► it um a year ago.

00:21:54 ◼   ► And

00:21:55 ◼   ► different cameras to different phones.

00:21:57 ◼   ► It's not like it was the same phone each time, right?

00:22:00 ◼   ► Different phones.

00:22:01 ◼   ► So

00:22:02 ◼   ► that's what that kind of stuff when we talk about it.

00:22:05 ◼   ► I feel like either be ambitious and hire staff to behave like how Apple

00:22:10 ◼   ► would do this product

00:22:13 ◼   ► or don't do it, but instead they a lot of times they, you know,

00:22:16 ◼   ► they we've talked about this a lot.

00:22:18 ◼   ► They launch it and then it's like they forget it.

00:22:20 ◼   ► They retask or it's not enough task to be on it.

00:22:22 ◼   ► And they're there and the worst the presence in the market of Apple um

00:22:26 ◼   ► deters other people from trying to compete with them.

00:22:28 ◼   ► And Apple doesn't really try hard enough.

00:22:30 ◼   ► And we'll end we'll end up with this kind of like broken middle ground.

00:22:33 ◼   ► Um so there are cases where I would say Apple's hiring practices are really

00:22:37 ◼   ► messed up because they're trying to do too much with too little.

00:22:40 ◼   ► However, I think that it's also probably true what Mark Erman reports here, that

00:22:45 ◼   ► you look at some of this stuff and you think, why?

00:22:50 ◼   ► I mean, I you you I understand that at some point a few years

00:22:54 ◼   ► ago hiring all these people made sense because we thought we were going to

00:22:57 ◼   ► do this, but now we're not.

00:23:00 ◼   ► So uh let's not keep them around.

00:23:04 ◼   ► If those rules don't make sense, we should just say so and be more

00:23:08 ◼   ► efficient there.

00:23:10 ◼   ► But uh and and I again I think the flip side of that as

00:23:14 ◼   ► in and invest in other areas where we actually think it's And it also

00:23:18 ◼   ► feels like particularly as well as just like a general reshuffling, which apparently has

00:23:23 ◼   ► been doing a lot more of, it seems like Turnus is keen to remove

00:23:28 ◼   ► specific functions, like middle management positions.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And And just like looking at this from a business perspective, right?

00:23:36 ◼   ► Or from a pu f guess from the personal side first, I never want

00:23:40 ◼   ► anyone to lose their job.

00:23:41 ◼   ► But

00:23:43 ◼   ► I think anyone that's worked in a corporate position, you have, I have.

00:23:48 ◼   ► Everybody feels that there are management functions that get in the way of the

00:23:53 ◼   ► work being done.

00:23:54 ◼   ► Like I think it is a very normal feeling.

00:23:56 ◼   ► I know I had it when I worked in the corporate world.

00:23:58 ◼   ► I see it now in interacting with corporations you know, companies that we work

00:24:02 ◼   ► with, where like you can feel that there's someone that's trying to get something

00:24:06 ◼   ► done.

00:24:07 ◼   ► There's someone in the middle, and then there's the decision maker.

00:24:10 ◼   ► And that person in the middle has their own agenda.

00:24:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:24:14 ◼   ► They have their own targets they need to hit at the times that they

00:24:16 ◼   ► need to hit them, or they're not very good at the job.

00:24:18 ◼   ► And that can be a blocker to the work being done.

00:24:21 ◼   ► And it it often springs from a good impulse, which is I've got somebody

00:24:26 ◼   ► who's really good and they need another task and I'm gonna I'm gonna delegate

00:24:29 ◼   ► some of the work to them as a manager.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Or we have too many people in this organization, one person can't manage them.

00:24:34 ◼   ► So that person needs four managers to manage the people in the organization.

00:24:38 ◼   ► Like this is very natural this like shrinking and contracting.

00:24:41 ◼   ► He will, you know, turn us will maybe get rid of a bunch of

00:24:44 ◼   ► these people.

00:24:45 ◼   ► In five years' time, they'll bring some in again because it got unruly.

00:24:48 ◼   ► It's like a very normal like ebb and flow.

00:24:51 ◼   ► Yeah, this happens.

00:24:52 ◼   ► We were just talking about this as well like a couple couple of days

00:24:54 ◼   ► ago like w in regards to s to something I don't remember what it

00:24:58 ◼   ► was, but this idea of like someone comes in, they have a bunch of

00:25:01 ◼   ► ideas, uh and then they're like, oh, what about this?

00:25:05 ◼   ► And then it doesn't work and a person goes away.

00:25:07 ◼   ► New person comes in.

00:25:08 ◼   ► Here's an idea, you know, and it's very normal.

00:25:11 ◼   ► Yeah, th this this is just a a cycle of it.

00:25:13 ◼   ► And when I said when when he was l coming in, I said there's

00:25:19 ◼   ► gonna be natural change because there's some stuff that just remains static because It's

00:25:24 ◼   ► just the way we've always done it.

00:25:25 ◼   ► And Tim Cook isn't interested in getting his hands dirty on that stuff.

00:25:30 ◼   ► And now here's a new CEO and he's got his list of things that

00:25:35 ◼   ► he doesn't like about how Apple has been run for the last five or

00:25:39 ◼   ► ten years.

00:25:40 ◼   ► And he gets to decide now.

00:25:42 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:25:43 ◼   ► I don't know that these are the right decisions.

00:25:45 ◼   ► No.

00:25:45 ◼   ► I wanted him to clearly be making decisions immediately.

00:25:48 ◼   ► Yes.

00:25:49 ◼   ► Right.

00:25:49 ◼   ► The and like these things take a long time to put into effect.

00:25:53 ◼   ► But if if you know, we're this point in and it's like Noir Girl

00:25:57 ◼   ► report, Turners is keeping his hand on the wheel, even Keel, no change.

00:26:01 ◼   ► It's like okay, is that the right necessarily the right way to do things?

00:26:06 ◼   ► Like I I feel like I wanted to see him shake it up.

00:26:09 ◼   ► And so more.

00:26:10 ◼   ► Turners has indicated that Apple must introduce products more quickly and become more experimental

00:26:16 ◼   ► to remain competitive in the Apple intelligence era.

00:26:19 ◼   ► Artificial intelligence, sorry.

00:26:21 ◼   ► Artificial intelligence.

00:26:22 ◼   ► I think I think we're in the United States we're supposed to call this

00:26:25 ◼   ► uh something else.

00:26:26 ◼   ► Isn't it like super intelligence?

00:26:27 ◼   ► Mega intelligence now?

00:26:28 ◼   ► Yes.

00:26:29 ◼   ► Because AI's not not enough.

00:26:30 ◼   ► Machine learning wasn't enough so we have to call it AI.

00:26:33 ◼   ► No, AI's not enough, so we have to call it like Superintelligence.

00:26:36 ◼   ► To get us closer to A E I, right?

00:26:38 ◼   ► 'Cause we've got to be up a level now.

00:26:40 ◼   ► I yeah.

00:26:40 ◼   ► Anyway, this is I I can't tell you how many people texted this to

00:26:44 ◼   ► me because we literally talked about it on upgrade last week.

00:26:49 ◼   ► S sometimes we have conversations like that's a good conversation and then something happens

00:26:53 ◼   ► like, Oh, that was a really good conversation.

00:26:55 ◼   ► So yeah, I said to a couple people, like, Yeah you know, friend of

00:26:57 ◼   ► the show, John Turnus, he's uh he's out there doing stuff.

00:27:00 ◼   ► Yep.

00:27:01 ◼   ► That but I mean it it it certainly felt that way to us as

00:27:05 ◼   ► observers that that it wasn't good enough.

00:27:07 ◼   ► If I and I and I ranted about this last week and I ranted

00:27:10 ◼   ► about this about a year ago, but it's the same the short version of

00:27:12 ◼   ► the rant is if I on the outside can be like, Well, wait a

00:27:16 ◼   ► second.

00:27:16 ◼   ► If if it's obvious that Apple needs to do X and Mark German then

00:27:20 ◼   ► reports in Bloomberg.

00:27:22 ◼   ► Apple's working on X.

00:27:23 ◼   ► See it in two years.

00:27:24 ◼   ► Something's wrong.

00:27:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:25 ◼   ► See it in two years is not an answer.

00:27:28 ◼   ► And we talked about the iPod, I which I know it's different era, but

00:27:32 ◼   ► like the iPod got done from nothing to a shipping product in 11 months.

00:27:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:37 ◼   ► So what are we doing here?

00:27:39 ◼   ► And I and if I were John Turnus, 100% this is one of the

00:27:42 ◼   ► things that I would come in with is we need not every product needs

00:27:45 ◼   ► to be like this, but we need to be to have the skills to

00:27:49 ◼   ► fast track a product.

00:27:50 ◼   ► If and and what better example, talking about Mark Erman says the artificial intelligence

00:27:56 ◼   ► era, whether a product is specifically AI or not,

00:28:00 ◼   ► the artificial intelligence era has taught us something which On a software side, let's

00:28:05 ◼   ► take software.

00:28:06 ◼   ► Apple has this whole approach, which is like, Well what we do is we

00:28:11 ◼   ► think of what we're gonna do for the next year.

00:28:13 ◼   ► And then we roll that out in June.

00:28:17 ◼   ► And then we ship it in September.

00:28:19 ◼   ► And then the next June we roll out whatever's gonna happen for the next

00:28:23 ◼   ► September.

00:28:24 ◼   ► And in the artificial intelligence era, you can't do that.

00:28:28 ◼   ► Yeah, you can't do so slow.

00:28:29 ◼   ► You can't you can't do it that way.

00:28:31 ◼   ► And they they got really comfortable and for a while they could afford to

00:28:34 ◼   ► do it that way.

00:28:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:35 ◼   ► But you can't.

00:28:36 ◼   ► And so if you're gonna come in and be the new boss, whether it's

00:28:39 ◼   ► hardware or software, and I would say it's both, you need to say, Look,

00:28:43 ◼   ► not everything, I'm not saying there's gonna be a new iOS, you know, version

00:28:49 ◼   ► that's like a WW D D C drop but it's every three months, right?

00:28:52 ◼   ► Of course it's not.

00:28:53 ◼   ► We're not gonna do that.

00:28:54 ◼   ► But like if there's a crash thing we have to do, we need to

00:28:56 ◼   ► be flexible enough to do that.

00:28:58 ◼   ► And if there's crash hardware thing we need to do, we need to have

00:29:01 ◼   ► the skills and the capability to do that.

00:29:03 ◼   ► And the word experimental here, become more experimental, I think is also code for

00:29:08 ◼   ► saying, let's try some stuff.

00:29:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:11 ◼   ► And it doesn't all have to be

00:29:15 ◼   ► because I think they set the bar so high that they're basically like, unless

00:29:18 ◼   ► something clears this incredibly high bar, they just don't do it.

00:29:21 ◼   ► And it's a mistake.

00:29:22 ◼   ► It's a problem.

00:29:23 ◼   ► Like this WWDC cycle has been such a

00:29:29 ◼   ► perfect example of the speed of the era of technology that we're in.

00:29:33 ◼   ► So when they showed off Siri uh Siri AI at WWDC.

00:29:37 ◼   ► It's like, okay, they're you know, chatbots are state of the art, they're doing

00:29:41 ◼   ► chatbots.

00:29:43 ◼   ► Comes a time that it ships, now everyone's doing agents, right?

00:29:46 ◼   ► So we've got Mews, dots.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Right.

00:29:49 ◼   ► Well, Apple doesn't have that.

00:29:50 ◼   ► And and they may, you know, we know they struggle to get here.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:29:54 ◼   ► But if you're at Apple,

00:29:57 ◼   ► do you say to yourself,

00:30:00 ◼   ► We had some agent features.

00:30:03 ◼   ► They're not done but we're working on them.

00:30:06 ◼   ► We were planning on showing them in June of 2027 and shipping them in

00:30:11 ◼   ► mid-September of 2027.

00:30:14 ◼   ► And do you look at Muse and say?

00:30:18 ◼   ► We're gonna be there.

00:30:20 ◼   ► Watch for us in September 2027 in a year's time.

00:30:25 ◼   ► Or do you look at it and say, Yeah, we gotta fast track that.

00:30:28 ◼   ► We gotta get that out.

00:30:29 ◼   ► We got we gotta ship that.

00:30:30 ◼   ► That's the priority now is to ship our take if you have one.

00:30:33 ◼   ► And if you don't have one, don't you need to you you need to

00:30:36 ◼   ► get one.

00:30:36 ◼   ► Yeah, get one, but don't don't say we've been here before.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:40 ◼   ► Don't say you've got it when you haven't got it.

00:30:41 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:41 ◼   ► But it's like again, I don't know that that is the right

00:30:45 ◼   ► I don't know that's the right call.

00:30:47 ◼   ► I I do think that this is an interesting product type, right?

00:30:51 ◼   ► This like age like it's an interesting thing.

00:30:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:54 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:30:55 ◼   ► I think there's agentic stuff that Apple could do, especially since the again their

00:30:58 ◼   ► great advantages that it's on device.

00:31:01 ◼   ► I don't want to share all of my personal data with Facebook, right?

00:31:04 ◼   ► Like with Meta.

00:31:05 ◼   ► I th there is not I can't think of a okay.

00:31:09 ◼   ► X maybe.

00:31:11 ◼   ► You know, but it's close.

00:31:12 ◼   ► There's very few companies that I would l rank rank lower on trust.

00:31:16 ◼   ► You want to log into your Gmail and access your iMessage history.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:31:20 ◼   ► So I

00:31:22 ◼   ► think Meta may actually be the worst because I I do not believe X

00:31:25 ◼   ► is competent enough to deal with that.

00:31:27 ◼   ► Uh but but meta

00:31:29 ◼   ► we've seen.

00:31:30 ◼   ► Well they they're competent enough to deal with huge sets of data.

00:31:33 ◼   ► They've committed many crimes, yes.

00:31:35 ◼   ► So it could be one of those.

00:31:36 ◼   ► So so this is It's just an it's it's just an example of the

00:31:41 ◼   ► pace.

00:31:42 ◼   ► Right?

00:31:43 ◼   ► That three months ago, this what this was a fringe thing.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:47 ◼   ► Open claw and all this kind of stuff.

00:31:49 ◼   ► Now it is mass market, number one in the app store.

00:31:54 ◼   ► Right.

00:31:54 ◼   ► People want to try this thing.

00:31:56 ◼   ► And as an example of the hardware thing, Nao Meta's like we're bringing out

00:32:00 ◼   ► this little charm where you can talk to your thing and clearly well clear

00:32:04 ◼   ► but most likely OpenAI's hardware product will use their agent tool and it's like

00:32:10 ◼   ► well now they're gonna have these products and come out quickly, right?

00:32:13 ◼   ► It's that speed thing.

00:32:14 ◼   ► Right.

00:32:14 ◼   ► So what are you gonna do?

00:32:15 ◼   ► There's no way that Meta was thinking about this charm two years ago.

00:32:20 ◼   ► Of course.

00:32:21 ◼   ► Because they hadn't because their strategy for AI then was completely different to where

00:32:24 ◼   ► they are now.

00:32:25 ◼   ► So it's like it it's all of this isn't it's not saying that any

00:32:29 ◼   ► of this makes any sense, but is an example of the speed and pace

00:32:33 ◼   ► of technology now.

00:32:35 ◼   ► You cannot be as slow as Apple has been.

00:32:38 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:32:38 ◼   ► They're being methodical, thoughtful, and have introduced products in the right way.

00:32:43 ◼   ► But we are in a time of threat to their business.

00:32:47 ◼   ► Because something could undermine them.

00:32:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:32:52 ◼   ► Right.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I just don't know.

00:32:53 ◼   ► And and again, it doesn't have to be everything.

00:32:56 ◼   ► But if you don't have that other gear to shift into,

00:33:01 ◼   ► you can't you just can't do it.

00:33:02 ◼   ► You need that other gear, you need that other muscle, you need whatever metaphor

00:33:06 ◼   ► you like, you need the Capability to choose, to pick your spots and say,

00:33:09 ◼   ► Yep, we gotta go on this one.

00:33:11 ◼   ► And I I think the example that I would give that is um is

00:33:15 ◼   ► the best is if you've been talking internally, and I can't believe they haven't

00:33:20 ◼   ► been, that age agent more agenty stuff is where they're going.

00:33:24 ◼   ► If you look at like the describe a shortcut.

00:33:28 ◼   ► Extensions.

00:33:29 ◼   ► You look at the you look at extensions, if you look at the um

00:33:33 ◼   ► all of the the shortcut action app stuff,

00:33:40 ◼   ► it's hard not to think that they've always been sort of thinking the next

00:33:43 ◼   ► step is the is applying models that use all your stuff.

00:33:48 ◼   ► So you're working on it and you see this, the next step is saying

00:33:53 ◼   ► and having the legitimately uh the legitimacy inside Apple to say,

00:33:59 ◼   ► this can't go in iOS twenty-eight.

00:34:01 ◼   ► It's gotta go in twenty-seven three or 27-4.

00:34:05 ◼   ► And everybody's like, Whoa, are you kidding?

00:34:07 ◼   ► Uh and you have to be able to say, No, we have to do

00:34:11 ◼   ► this.

00:34:12 ◼   ► This is important.

00:34:13 ◼   ► Um, and and if we're incapable of doing this, what's wrong with our organization

00:34:18 ◼   ► that we need to fix?

00:34:19 ◼   ► Because that's and that's at the level of the CEO.

00:34:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:34:21 ◼   ► Or or somebody like Crick Federiki, if it's a software issue.

00:34:24 ◼   ► It's like, if we're not structured in a way that allows us to react

00:34:28 ◼   ► like this, how do we restructure?

00:34:29 ◼   ► You do have to ask that fundamental question because yes you need to that

00:34:33 ◼   ► is that's a good way of putting it.

00:34:35 ◼   ► I it if the question isn't like if we can't do this, what's wrong

00:34:40 ◼   ► with us?

00:34:41 ◼   ► No.

00:34:41 ◼   ► The question is if we can't do this, how do we do this?

00:34:43 ◼   ► It's it Yes.

00:34:45 ◼   ► It's gotta just be action.

00:34:46 ◼   ► It's not about like, okay, let's have a review of the organization to work

00:34:50 ◼   ► out where the flaws are.

00:34:51 ◼   ► No, there's not enough time for that.

00:34:53 ◼   ► Like you have to move and yes, break the idea of the annual operating

00:34:58 ◼   ► cycle.

00:34:59 ◼   ► I bring system cycle.

00:35:00 ◼   ► And it's like I know so many people will say, Oh, but for years

00:35:04 ◼   ► we said uh uh annual releases are too much.

00:35:07 ◼   ► Yes, but that was when all of the code was written by humans and

00:35:10 ◼   ► it's not anymore.

00:35:11 ◼   ► That's also and we know it's not.

00:35:13 ◼   ► So like the developers can move at a faster pace.

00:35:16 ◼   ► So the operating system should move at a faster pace.

00:35:20 ◼   ► And their competition is using those tools and moving at that pace.

00:35:23 ◼   ► And you've gotta be able to do it.

00:35:25 ◼   ► You just have to you have to be able again, not saying everything, but

00:35:28 ◼   ► saying you gotta be able to pick key categories and say, We're gonna move

00:35:32 ◼   ► fast on this one.

00:35:33 ◼   ► When one of your biggest technology competitors is an app in your store that

00:35:37 ◼   ► has been number one for weeks that's doing things that your device should do,

00:35:41 ◼   ► maybe you need to think about that.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And not just a competitor, like a Arch enemy.

00:35:47 ◼   ► Arch enemy.

00:35:47 ◼   ► I say mortal enemy, but that wasn't the the arch enemy.

00:35:50 ◼   ► Like the the absolute inverse of your values.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And you were offering that to people, right?

00:35:56 ◼   ► Like you are the conduit for people putting this app on the device.

00:36:01 ◼   ► You should be there.

00:36:02 ◼   ► And like, especially when Siri AI's power is in the personal context, which is

00:36:09 ◼   ► exactly what the agents are looking for.

00:36:11 ◼   ► Right.

00:36:12 ◼   ► And you've got it because you're Apple and no and and it's on your

00:36:15 ◼   ► device and and people you have a better story, but you you have to

00:36:19 ◼   ► implement it.

00:36:20 ◼   ► And that is the yeah, I I think at the core

00:36:23 ◼   ► That is what we're saying is you need to find a way to be

00:36:29 ◼   ► better at this.

00:36:30 ◼   ► Um, and and I do think it's probably structural, but that's just a guess

00:36:35 ◼   ► from the outside.

00:36:36 ◼   ► And and I do think it's empowering people on the inside to say, Okay,

00:36:40 ◼   ► if this is important, how are we going to do this?

00:36:43 ◼   ► Considering how much time we've spent talking about agents now, we've gone in a

00:36:47 ◼   ► different direction.

00:36:47 ◼   ► I've moved our topic order around in the shop.

00:36:50 ◼   ► 'Cause there is w we're gonna talk about the home hub, which you think

00:36:53 ◼   ► maybe naturally ties in with turners moving faster, but we're talking so much about

00:36:57 ◼   ► agents.

00:36:58 ◼   ► I want to talk about this.

00:36:59 ◼   ► Apple's posted to their developer website an article titled Update Updates to full disk

00:37:05 ◼   ► access in Mac OS.

00:37:06 ◼   ► I want to read it real quick.

00:37:07 ◼   ► It's quite a short update, but I think it's get the context for it.

00:37:12 ◼   ► We give developers powerful APIs to build incredible capabilities into their apps for Apple

00:37:17 ◼   ► products, backed by a set of controls designed to protect users' private data.

00:37:21 ◼   ► Full-disk access largely sidesteps these controls, bac in order to allow backup apps to

00:37:29 ◼   ► function properly on the Mac.

00:37:31 ◼   ► That's funny to say the Mac.

00:37:33 ◼   ► I don't do that often.

00:37:34 ◼   ► Anyway, some developers are using full disk access in ways that could put users

00:37:38 ◼   ► at risk, exposing everywhere everything on their systems, including files, mail, messages, and even

00:37:44 ◼   ► browsing history without users' full knowledge and understanding.

00:37:47 ◼   ► For communication apps, this can also compromise the privacy of the people users are

00:37:51 ◼   ► communicating with.

00:37:53 ◼   ► Going forward, we will introduce additional controls to ensure that users who genuinely wish

00:37:58 ◼   ► to grant an app this extra extraordinary level of access can only do so

00:38:03 ◼   ► with very explicit user action.

00:38:05 ◼   ► Addressing this is critical.

00:38:07 ◼   ► As AI agents become increasingly capable and autonomous, the risks associated with this level

00:38:13 ◼   ► of access will grow substantially.

00:38:15 ◼   ► We are committed to ensuring users clearly understand these risks before granting such access

00:38:20 ◼   ► so they can make informed decisions about their own data and privacy.

00:38:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:26 ◼   ► Now they I mean what's funny here is that they've done a lot.

00:38:29 ◼   ► Like e full disk access

00:38:32 ◼   ► they put it in the context here.

00:38:33 ◼   ► It's look, this was really for backups.

00:38:36 ◼   ► Okay.

00:38:37 ◼   ► And they added a few years ago this idea that like if an app

00:38:41 ◼   ► looked inside your photos folder, you got a pop-up that said, do you want

00:38:45 ◼   ► to let this app look at your photos?

00:38:48 ◼   ► Um and similar for some other sensitive areas of your system.

00:38:52 ◼   ► So it seems to me that what's going to happen here is that Apple's

00:38:55 ◼   ► going to say.

00:38:56 ◼   ► We're gonna we need these agents are using uh a feature that was not

00:39:02 ◼   ► intended for them to grant to take over everything on your system and look

00:39:08 ◼   ► and sort through it.

00:39:09 ◼   ► And Apple's like, we're not comfortable with this because this is not granular enough,

00:39:16 ◼   ► which I think is fair enough.

00:39:18 ◼   ► Um so it's interesting that they feel that they need to do this, but

00:39:23 ◼   ► I mean the idea that you've got a program running on your system that

00:39:27 ◼   ► can just look anywhere and do anything and run.

00:39:30 ◼   ► I mean, I've done this with Claude Code sessions where it says, Oh yeah,

00:39:35 ◼   ► I cause it I it went from me approving uh everything to you put

00:39:39 ◼   ► it in auto mode and then you suddenly have this moment where they're like,

00:39:41 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm running code, um, I'm running tests.

00:39:45 ◼   ► It's very convenient, right?

00:39:46 ◼   ► But it's like literally it's just running, it's typing things into your terminal now.

00:39:51 ◼   ► And

00:39:52 ◼   ► it it could tell you or it could not tell you.

00:39:55 ◼   ► Well and also it's like, you know, these Muse, we're just talking about Mews.

00:40:00 ◼   ► There are stories and of it going and looking inside of people's messages history.

00:40:05 ◼   ► Right.

00:40:05 ◼   ► Because what happened is in that one journalist story, they didn't grant grant it

00:40:10 ◼   ► access to messages, but it had full disk access.

00:40:12 ◼   ► So it just read the messages file.

00:40:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:40:15 ◼   ► So um so I get what Apple's doing here, and I think they need

00:40:18 ◼   ► to do it.

00:40:18 ◼   ► I also share John.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Gruber's uh Power User Lament, which is basically like

00:40:24 ◼   ► I mean, it's it's very much like uh the conversation we had about why

00:40:27 ◼   ► Apple Security does a bunch of stuff to limit, you know, the apps you

00:40:31 ◼   ► launch.

00:40:32 ◼   ► And I grouse about that all the time, like oh, an unsigned app, and

00:40:35 ◼   ► I've got to go here and I've got to go over here and all

00:40:37 ◼   ► of that.

00:40:37 ◼   ► But they did that because people were getting talked into approving those things by

00:40:42 ◼   ► uh phishing attacks.

00:40:44 ◼   ► And it was subverting their computers because they were walking them through Apple Security

00:40:48 ◼   ► process.

00:40:48 ◼   ► So Apple made its security process more complex so that it was harder to

00:40:53 ◼   ► try to talk people through it.

00:40:55 ◼   ► And the result is that if you want to run an app that's not

00:40:58 ◼   ► signed and you're a power user, it's a pain now to do that.

00:41:03 ◼   ► But I also understand why.

00:41:05 ◼   ► And that's what this feels like to me, is that not too similar to

00:41:10 ◼   ► a phishing scam sometimes when the chatbot is talking you through the things that

00:41:14 ◼   ► you need to do.

00:41:15 ◼   ► Exactly right.

00:41:16 ◼   ► And and so I think

00:41:19 ◼   ► I think it's the right thing to do because I think there are even

00:41:24 ◼   ► in fact I'd say right now that's even sophisticated users are granting too much

00:41:29 ◼   ► access

00:41:31 ◼   ► to their computer.

00:41:32 ◼   ► Well, like I said, I had that moment where I was running something in

00:41:34 ◼   ► Claude Code and it was and it suddenly was like, Oh yeah, I compiled

00:41:38 ◼   ► this thing and I went out on the internet and got this file and

00:41:41 ◼   ► brought it back.

00:41:42 ◼   ► And I'm just gonna know what I'm giving access to, but then it does

00:41:46 ◼   ► things that I didn't expect it to do.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:48 ◼   ► And if you if you set some trip wires, which it sounds like Apple

00:41:52 ◼   ► is going to do so that the system, instead of just saying Here's what

00:41:56 ◼   ► would you like to use this tool?

00:41:58 ◼   ► Grant full access.

00:42:00 ◼   ► Right.

00:42:00 ◼   ► That's basically where we are.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Is Apple feels like there is a barrier beyond which there's just one switch,

00:42:06 ◼   ► which is full disk access.

00:42:08 ◼   ► And it's like, good luck.

00:42:09 ◼   ► And Apple's like

00:42:12 ◼   ► we can't do that.

00:42:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:13 ◼   ► We can't full is too much.

00:42:15 ◼   ► And so you create more tripwires where it's like, it's gonna do this.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Are you okay?

00:42:21 ◼   ► Are you really okay with that?

00:42:24 ◼   ► And And I think I believe Apple when they say ultimately the goal is

00:42:29 ◼   ► not to prevent Mac users from doing what they want with their computer.

00:42:33 ◼   ► The goal, that's not the goal.

00:42:35 ◼   ► The goal is to protect users from people or software doing things on their

00:42:40 ◼   ► Mac that they don't understand or intend

00:42:45 ◼   ► by warning them that this is a threshold that they're gonna cross over.

00:42:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:42:49 ◼   ► That they're gonna hit this tripwire.

00:42:50 ◼   ► I think that's going on here.

00:42:51 ◼   ► Yeah, the devil's in the details though, right?

00:42:53 ◼   ► I mean you are an an I would say an advocate for removing some

00:42:58 ◼   ► privacy permissions, and it seems like they're about to add a lot more.

00:43:03 ◼   ► I know, and it bugs me and on And honestly, as a user of

00:43:06 ◼   ► something like Clog Code,

00:43:09 ◼   ► if

00:43:11 ◼   ► I can't give a command and let it spin, but instead have to sit

00:43:16 ◼   ► there and go, okay, okay, okay, okay.

00:43:20 ◼   ► My experience is going to be worse, right?

00:43:24 ◼   ► But I also, just as with the signing of apps, also I am willing

00:43:29 ◼   ► to grant Apple some degree of latitude because I understand that in certain circumstances,

00:43:39 ◼   ► I am not who they're trying to protect.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I am going to be a

00:43:44 ◼   ► little bit of a casualty in the sense of a little bit of inconvenience.

00:43:49 ◼   ► In return for who knows how many users who got talked into installing malware.

00:43:55 ◼   ► And, you know, when I talk to those security people, they say they've largely

00:43:59 ◼   ► stopped that.

00:43:59 ◼   ► They've largely solved that because they've erected enough barriers that it's too hard to

00:44:04 ◼   ► talk somebody into this now.

00:44:06 ◼   ► Well, that's great.

00:44:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:44:08 ◼   ► So

00:44:09 ◼   ► we don't know how this is gonna

00:44:12 ◼   ► end up.

00:44:12 ◼   ► And I I do wonder if ultimately there will be A switch you can

00:44:18 ◼   ► flip as a power user that will let you do this.

00:44:23 ◼   ► But my guess is it will be much harder to do because the goal

00:44:26 ◼   ► is not to not let people have power.

00:44:28 ◼   ► The goal is to make it behind a barrier

00:44:33 ◼   ► that regular people can't be talked into, right?

00:44:37 ◼   ► It's this idea of like if somebody calls you on the phone, they can

00:44:41 ◼   ► talk you into giving them a code or something that might steal money from

00:44:44 ◼   ► the bank.

00:44:45 ◼   ► But they probably can't talk you into

00:44:49 ◼   ► buying a toy gun and painting it to look like a real gun and

00:44:53 ◼   ► then walking into a bank and saying this is a stick-up, right?

00:44:57 ◼   ► Somebody's gonna nobody's gonna do that.

00:44:58 ◼   ► They're gonna be like, what are you talking about?

00:45:00 ◼   ► Are you talking me into being a bank robber?

00:45:02 ◼   ► I'm I'm not gonna do that, right?

00:45:04 ◼   ► Um, there's a line beyond which nobody is gonna get talked into it, or

00:45:10 ◼   ► almost nobody.

00:45:12 ◼   ► So That's that seems to me is Apple's job is how do you build

00:45:17 ◼   ► a system where if people want to do stuff, they can do it.

00:45:21 ◼   ► But it's it's gonna be more inconvenient for us because it maybe it has

00:45:27 ◼   ► to be because too many people are getting taken for a ride.

00:45:30 ◼   ► And this is super dangerous.

00:45:31 ◼   ► I mean, make no mistake, letting a a a coding agent or another active

00:45:37 ◼   ► agent rifle through everything you do and have on your hard drive and run

00:45:43 ◼   ► code

00:45:45 ◼   ► seems bad.

00:45:46 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:49 ◼   ► It's all gonna be again, it's like I find it weird because 'Cause like

00:45:52 ◼   ► devils into details.

00:45:54 ◼   ► Uh, this post has no detail.

00:45:55 ◼   ► It doesn't say what they're gonna do, when it's coming, or how it's gonna

00:45:59 ◼   ► be implemented, which is interesting to me.

00:46:01 ◼   ► It's like why did they post it now?

00:46:04 ◼   ► Like, why are we seeing this now?

00:46:06 ◼   ► We've no detail.

00:46:07 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:46:08 ◼   ► I mean, are they are they concerned that like something's gonna go wrong?

00:46:14 ◼   ► I think they're seeing what some of these coding assistants are already doing in

00:46:17 ◼   ► terms of a and and that story about Muse looking at the that person's

00:46:22 ◼   ► Jason Aiton.

00:46:23 ◼   ► Jason Aiton's uh messages file.

00:46:26 ◼   ► I think I think they've been working on this already because they're concerned about

00:46:30 ◼   ► this with the coding agents and now they feel like it's really getting out

00:46:33 ◼   ► of hand and they need to get out in front of it.

00:46:35 ◼   ► But that's a guess.

00:46:36 ◼   ► And I you know, like you I hope that there are ways around it.

00:46:39 ◼   ► I mean, say something like the photos prompt that pops up, you know, and

00:46:43 ◼   ► it's like continue giving full access.

00:46:45 ◼   ► Like that kind of thing is fine.

00:46:48 ◼   ► But I don't want every experience that I have with cowork to be throwing

00:46:53 ◼   ► up permissions prompts for me.

00:46:55 ◼   ► I know.

00:46:56 ◼   ► Right.

00:46:56 ◼   ► And so like I just don't know what this is gonna look like.

00:46:58 ◼   ► And something that's really interesting is so many people are using the Mac because

00:47:05 ◼   ► of this, right?

00:47:06 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:07 ◼   ► And so what happens to all those Mac minis and closets that are just

00:47:12 ◼   ► connected to codecs and because they I feel like Apple knows this is a

00:47:18 ◼   ► competitive advantage for them.

00:47:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:47:20 ◼   ► So I I think that's why what they will probably do is erect a

00:47:25 ◼   ► barrier that is higher, but that you there's still a switch back there that

00:47:29 ◼   ► you can flip.

00:47:30 ◼   ► And it may be, um we talked about the idea of doing a developer

00:47:35 ◼   ► mode, maybe it's an agent mode, maybe it's something.

00:47:38 ◼   ► It might I'm reminded of like when, for lots of stupid reasons, if you

00:47:42 ◼   ► wanted to install audio hijack, you used to have to reboot

00:47:46 ◼   ► into the recovery mode and then go to a special security setting and then

00:47:52 ◼   ► and then check to lower your settings and then put in your password and

00:47:55 ◼   ► then reset and then reboot and then install and then reboot again.

00:48:01 ◼   ► It may be something like that.

00:48:02 ◼   ► The problem here is if somebody's motivated enough to use this stuff, like this

00:48:08 ◼   ► is this is that kind of nanny state argument, which is like in the

00:48:13 ◼   ► end,

00:48:14 ◼   ► if somebody wants to give Meta unfettered access to everything on their hard drive

00:48:20 ◼   ► and the ability to write code and run it.

00:48:24 ◼   ► At some point, if it's the Mac,

00:48:28 ◼   ► you gotta let them, right?

00:48:29 ◼   ► You gotta let 'em.

00:48:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:30 ◼   ► At some point.

00:48:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:48:32 ◼   ► And I will say, because I know people rush to pay panic about this

00:48:37 ◼   ► stuff.

00:48:38 ◼   ► Thus far on the Mac, Apple's take has been we will not stop you,

00:48:46 ◼   ► but we may make it harder.

00:48:48 ◼   ► And and I think that's what they're gonna go for here is they're gonna

00:48:51 ◼   ► try to make that

00:48:54 ◼   ► convenient switch for running on a Mac Mini in a closet somewhere

00:49:00 ◼   ► behind something scary enough that most regular people are not gonna bother.

00:49:05 ◼   ► There was something that I found very funny.

00:49:07 ◼   ► Uh John Voorhees uh posted about this on Mac Stories, right?

00:49:11 ◼   ► So he m he references how Apple says that full disk access was uh

00:49:18 ◼   ► for backup apps to function on the desk.

00:49:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:49:21 ◼   ► And I'm just gonna read from Joan.

00:49:23 ◼   ► This is nonsense.

00:49:24 ◼   ► Looking at my MacBook Pro, only a handful of apps to which I've granted

00:49:28 ◼   ► full disk access are backup apps.

00:49:30 ◼   ► Others include, and I'll just skip ahead to the funny ones, Pixel Mata Pro,

00:49:34 ◼   ► Test Flight, Madden NFL twenty seven arcade edition.

00:49:39 ◼   ► And then obviously like things you'd expect, like Hazel and Setup.

00:49:42 ◼   ► Well well yeah, but I mean this is the thing, right?

00:49:44 ◼   ► Why does Madden have full disk access?

00:49:46 ◼   ► And I think the argument would be that it absolutely shouldn't and maybe some

00:49:49 ◼   ► of this is on Apple for allowing full disk access to get a little

00:49:53 ◼   ► out of hand.

00:49:54 ◼   ► That is the Apple arcade version of Madden.

00:49:56 ◼   ► I'm sure.

00:49:57 ◼   ► Which is it's just it's it's just why

00:50:00 ◼   ► so that's part of the problem i is is that.

00:50:04 ◼   ► Um also what is it?

00:50:06 ◼   ► Something I saw somebody mention that there's actually some data that now full the

00:50:11 ◼   ► the backup apps can't because it's kept in like an exclave and therefore is

00:50:16 ◼   ► not reachable.

00:50:18 ◼   ► So you can't back that stuff up.

00:50:19 ◼   ► It's impossible.

00:50:21 ◼   ► So we'll see what they do.

00:50:23 ◼   ► We'll see what they do.

00:50:24 ◼   ► But I think I think their goal is to find

00:50:28 ◼   ► I think what they've realized is that full disk access became a catch-all.

00:50:33 ◼   ► And it can't be anymore.

00:50:35 ◼   ► Like it's gotten worse and worse and worse.

00:50:37 ◼   ► And so to John's point, the

00:50:42 ◼   ► His list of full disk access apps

00:50:45 ◼   ► shows why full disk access has been broadly defined in a way that probably

00:50:50 ◼   ► it shouldn't be.

00:50:51 ◼   ► That there should be more granular permissions so that

00:50:56 ◼   ► Madden doesn't need full disk access, right?

00:50:59 ◼   ► Like that shouldn't it shouldn't be necessary.

00:51:01 ◼   ► That's happening because I love that it does though.

00:51:03 ◼   ► That's happening because there's some reason, or either somebody's taking a shortcut, or there's

00:51:07 ◼   ► some reason that some file somewhere, but like it shouldn't ever be that way.

00:51:12 ◼   ► So maybe they will address this so that full disk access because I I

00:51:15 ◼   ► think what I would say is I think Apple always viewed full disk access

00:51:20 ◼   ► as a thing they had to do because of backup.

00:51:22 ◼   ► And then it got out of hand.

00:51:24 ◼   ► That's my that's my read on that.

00:51:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:51:27 ◼   ► I wonder what the replacement is and how they enforce it.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Like if you don't want Muse on the Mac to have full disk access,

00:51:36 ◼   ► but you still want to offer full disk access.

00:51:38 ◼   ► How do you stop them?

00:51:40 ◼   ► By by building barriers that make most people not want to bother,

00:51:49 ◼   ► or at the very least

00:51:51 ◼   ► make them really, really, really, really, really, really sure that they know and approve

00:51:58 ◼   ► of what their agent is doing.

00:52:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:00 ◼   ► And and I think those are the two options.

00:52:02 ◼   ► Right?

00:52:03 ◼   ► Because you can't get in the way of a backup app.

00:52:05 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:06 ◼   ► I know, but it might mean that to install a backup app now is

00:52:09 ◼   ► going to be sort of like to install audio hijack where you're gonna have

00:52:13 ◼   ► to do a bunch of steps in order to get that backup app.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:17 ◼   ► I think it's uh an in A a somewhat strange decision to publish this

00:52:24 ◼   ► with nothing.

00:52:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Cause

00:52:29 ◼   ► it is not I don't really think I mean maybe I'm not paying attention

00:52:34 ◼   ► to the right places

00:52:36 ◼   ► You know, the the the I would say somewhat minor controversies of what Muse

00:52:41 ◼   ► is accessing right now, right?

00:52:44 ◼   ► I don't really think people were saying, oh Apple.

00:52:47 ◼   ► Like I don't really think there was fire on them in which they felt

00:52:49 ◼   ► they needed to respond to this, but yet they have decided to do that.

00:52:55 ◼   ► And I think of our i as with these things usually, it's just creating

00:53:00 ◼   ► more questions than answers.

00:53:03 ◼   ► I I look forward to seeing more.

00:53:06 ◼   ► And and again, I guess this is between now and WWDC, right?

00:53:11 ◼   ► Like you would assume, right?

00:53:13 ◼   ► This is a sooner rather than later thing.

00:53:15 ◼   ► If they're talking about it just on a Friday or whatever.

00:53:19 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:53:20 ◼   ► No, it'll be uh point two, point three.

00:53:23 ◼   ► It'll be it'll be in introduced in there and maybe it's like optional to

00:53:26 ◼   ► begin with, but this is a warning and then it'll get enforced at a

00:53:30 ◼   ► later one.

00:53:30 ◼   ► They they do that sort of thing with stuff like this.

00:53:32 ◼   ► So yeah, we'll see.

00:53:34 ◼   ► Or did i is it that or has um have agents ruined everything for

00:53:39 ◼   ► everyone from now on?

00:53:40 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:53:41 ◼   ► Ye I mean probably.

00:53:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:44 ◼   ► But

00:53:45 ◼   ► but

00:53:47 ◼   ► maybe it'll be worth it in the end.

00:53:49 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:53:51 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Factor.

00:53:54 ◼   ► Summer's in full swing.

00:53:55 ◼   ► You know what that means.

00:53:56 ◼   ► That means travel.

00:53:57 ◼   ► We're traveling right now.

00:53:58 ◼   ► I know when I travel, my uh my eating routine can get very disrupted.

00:54:03 ◼   ► Uh I'm eating all kinds of things.

00:54:06 ◼   ► When I get home again, I don't know about you, Jason, when I'm a

00:54:09 ◼   ► trip where I've been eating lots of great food, I struggle to get back

00:54:13 ◼   ► into my regular routine a little bit because I like continuing to eat the

00:54:18 ◼   ► very good and easy food that's available to me.

00:54:22 ◼   ► Sure.

00:54:22 ◼   ► Wouldn't it be great if there was a healthier option, right?

00:54:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:54:24 ◼   ► For good and easy food.

00:54:27 ◼   ► It would be good, Mike.

00:54:28 ◼   ► Let me tell you about factor.

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00:55:14 ◼   ► you can feel confident that you're doing something good for yourself with each and

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00:55:19 ◼   ► Jason, I know the uh the Snell household.

00:55:22 ◼   ► Still big fans of facta?

00:55:25 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean the the you can't argue with the success of the meals

00:55:29 ◼   ► coming sometimes and uh them just disappearing out the door.

00:55:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:55:34 ◼   ► Lauren works at the library every day and, you know, w if we don't

00:55:38 ◼   ► have leftovers, then what are you doing for lunch?

00:55:41 ◼   ► And, you know We got lots of podcast products in the house that are

00:55:44 ◼   ► just like whatever.

00:55:45 ◼   ► And uh those met with the seal of approval and then we got them

00:55:49 ◼   ► for my mom because we were concerned about her nutrition as well.

00:55:52 ◼   ► So like it it and I can say for myself that yeah, I'm impressed.

00:55:56 ◼   ► I think it's goes down to the quality of the ingredients, but they taste

00:55:59 ◼   ► they taste really good.

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00:56:25 ◼   ► See the website for more details.

00:56:26 ◼   ► Our thanks to Factor for their support of this show and all of Relay.

00:56:32 ◼   ► New segment time.

00:56:34 ◼   ► What's this new segment, Jason?

00:56:36 ◼   ► This segment brought to you by Mountain Dew.

00:56:40 ◼   ► Last year I opened the Mountain Dew during an ad read and you lost

00:56:45 ◼   ► it.

00:56:46 ◼   ► I did.

00:56:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I did lose it because I was doing an ad read and I

00:56:49 ◼   ► hear

00:56:52 ◼   ► and I also think you did it accidentally directly into the microphone last time.

00:56:58 ◼   ► So this time I thought I would wait and use it as a new

00:57:01 ◼   ► segment to interstitial.

00:57:03 ◼   ► The entire time during the ad, I'm seeing out the corner of my eye

00:57:07 ◼   ► a man fondling about in two.

00:57:10 ◼   ► And I had to keep it together.

00:57:11 ◼   ► And I did.

00:57:12 ◼   ► You did.

00:57:12 ◼   ► We should all be proud of me.

00:57:14 ◼   ► All right, so we're gonna go back to talking about new products now.

00:57:17 ◼   ► Mark German is reporting that Apple is getting ready to debut its home hub

00:57:22 ◼   ► on October 13th, just a little over a week away.

00:57:26 ◼   ► We have more details.

00:57:28 ◼   ► Things are a little bit more concrete now.

00:57:30 ◼   ► The display will be roughly a six inch square, can be mounted on the

00:57:35 ◼   ► wall or on a speaker base.

00:57:37 ◼   ► The wall mounted version needs constant power via USB-C, there's no battery, and it

00:57:42 ◼   ► includes the speaker and microphones in the unit.

00:57:45 ◼   ► The device itself, in both configurations, will be able to recognize who approaches it

00:57:50 ◼   ► or who's speaking, and will use this as the right as the way to

00:57:54 ◼   ► give the right answers to questions that are asked and to show information on

00:57:59 ◼   ► the screen.

00:58:00 ◼   ► It does this by voice detection or facial recognition that's not face ID.

00:58:05 ◼   ► So

00:58:07 ◼   ► the photos app stuff basically.

00:58:09 ◼   ► You know, like we've all seen this of like Jason's at the front.

00:58:12 ◼   ► You don't have a video doorbell, do you?

00:58:14 ◼   ► No.

00:58:14 ◼   ► So we have a video doorbell.

00:58:16 ◼   ► If I ring the doorbell

00:58:18 ◼   ► for some reason in my own home, it pops up and says, Michael's at

00:58:23 ◼   ► the door.

00:58:24 ◼   ► Right?

00:58:24 ◼   ► Like i or like it would do Adina's at the door.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Or uh in twenty seven, the camera stuff is getting smarter and like our

00:58:33 ◼   ► home camera or whatever, if it was to be on, it would say like

00:58:37 ◼   ► Edina is in the living room or something.

00:58:40 ◼   ► It it's you can see that they're they're doing some stuff here.

00:58:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:58:44 ◼   ► And I think that is probably what's going on for this product.

00:58:48 ◼   ► Makes sense.

00:58:49 ◼   ► Um but because this is less reliable, there will be a setting to require

00:58:53 ◼   ► a secondary check via an iPhone for performing some action.

00:58:57 ◼   ► So maybe it says like you ask for something, it's like you could say

00:59:01 ◼   ► like, oh, to do this, like maybe, I don't know, send a message delete

00:59:05 ◼   ► a calendar event, get face ID from your iPhone.

00:59:08 ◼   ► I would also hope your Apple Watch could do this.

00:59:10 ◼   ► Yeah, this is what I was thinking is is you there are a lot

00:59:12 ◼   ► of signals here, right?

00:59:13 ◼   ► Beyond face recognition.

00:59:15 ◼   ► If the if the iPhone that is connected to that person is in Bluetooth

00:59:18 ◼   ► range um, or a watch that is on by you know unlocked biometrically.

00:59:25 ◼   ► By the way.

00:59:26 ◼   ► The duo.

00:59:28 ◼   ► And the watch unlock.

00:59:30 ◼   ► Is there another little shooter drop with this maybe at some point?

00:59:35 ◼   ► Maybe able to do face ID, facial recognition with the camera, and if you'rearing

00:59:39 ◼   ► a watch it will unlock your phone?

00:59:41 ◼   ► Maybe, although if you're wearing the watch.

00:59:44 ◼   ► I know but it really takes that as a fallback.

00:59:48 ◼   ► Okay.

00:59:48 ◼   ► A lot has to fail before the watch on at least with the current

00:59:51 ◼   ► iPhones

00:59:53 ◼   ► with a face ID, there is a pretty significant step process to go through

00:59:59 ◼   ► before the watch and lock actually triggers and it makes a big deal about

01:00:04 ◼   ► it and I'm I'm I continue as you can tell I'm still in copium.

01:00:08 ◼   ► I am continuing to hope for some kind of better experience than just touch

01:00:13 ◼   ► ID.

01:00:13 ◼   ► But nevertheless, we're gonna talk about it right now.

01:00:16 ◼   ► Quote from Mark Gurman.

01:00:17 ◼   ► Apple envisions customers placing several of these displays throughout their homes.

01:00:22 ◼   ► They could be used to control thermostats, door locks, and other connected products, as

01:00:26 ◼   ► well as for video calls, intercom style communication, music playback, and viewing slideshows or

01:00:31 ◼   ► photos stored in Apple's iCloud service.

01:00:33 ◼   ► Of course, they would like us to have several Chris R.

01:00:37 ◼   ► Holmes.

01:00:38 ◼   ► Um

01:00:39 ◼   ► I left out until now Mark's updated description, and this is actually pretty significantly

01:00:45 ◼   ► updated description of the standalone tabletop version.

01:00:50 ◼   ► The hub is about as thick as an iPhone, the screen, and its display

01:00:54 ◼   ► is surrounded by a quarter inch black bezel reminiscent of older iPads.

01:00:58 ◼   ► It has rounded corners, no sharp edges.

01:01:00 ◼   ► The device lacks a battery, so it also has to be plugged in at

01:01:03 ◼   ► all times.

01:01:03 ◼   ► There's no volume or power button.

01:01:05 ◼   ► The product comes in Apple's standard grey aluminium finish and includes a USB-C port

01:01:10 ◼   ► for power.

01:01:11 ◼   ► The screen sits above a metal round base with multiple rings of perforated speaker

01:01:16 ◼   ► holes and connects to and connects to it through a polished metal arm.

01:01:22 ◼   ► Users can manually tilt the display forward or backwards, and the base has a

01:01:26 ◼   ► rubberized bottom to help it stay on a table.

01:01:29 ◼   ► Are they making an IMAC G four?

01:01:33 ◼   ► Maybe.

01:01:34 ◼   ► I think it sounds like it, right?

01:01:36 ◼   ► Maybe.

01:01:36 ◼   ► And wouldn't that be a very interesting way to debut a product like this

01:01:41 ◼   ► is a nostalgia hit.

01:01:43 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:01:44 ◼   ► Very Very interesting.

01:01:45 ◼   ► Very interesting.

01:01:46 ◼   ► Especially when you consider the tabletop robot.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:01:48 ◼   ► That Mark German says is coming next year and isn't a robot.

01:01:52 ◼   ► Another product under development is an upgraded version of the home hub.

01:01:55 ◼   ► It pairs a larger nine inch display with a robotic arm that allows the

01:01:59 ◼   ► screen to move through space.

01:02:01 ◼   ► What an interesting matter.

01:02:06 ◼   ► Through space?

01:02:07 ◼   ► I don't that didn't hit me so much when I read it the first

01:02:10 ◼   ► time.

01:02:11 ◼   ► Just like why not just move around, Mark?

01:02:13 ◼   ► Yeah into another dimension.

01:02:16 ◼   ► The display on the more advanced model was designed to swivel three hundred and

01:02:21 ◼   ► sixty degrees.

01:02:21 ◼   ► So th do you remember a really long time ago we had a conversation

01:02:26 ◼   ► about I think it was a combination of rumors and a research paper of

01:02:29 ◼   ► the device being able to turn at you.

01:02:31 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:32 ◼   ► It's this, right?

01:02:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:34 ◼   ► This is the idea here is that it it the a future one would

01:02:38 ◼   ► be like that G four I Mac in its animated Pixar version.

01:02:42 ◼   ► Moving through space.

01:02:43 ◼   ► Through moving through space and time.

01:02:46 ◼   ► As we all do.

01:02:47 ◼   ► We all do.

01:02:48 ◼   ► From as the home hub world.

01:02:49 ◼   ► Yes.

01:02:50 ◼   ► And it makes sense too the display's bigger.

01:02:52 ◼   ► Like that will be your pro version of this thing, right?

01:02:54 ◼   ► Like or or whatever it's gonna be.

01:02:58 ◼   ► Super interesting.

01:02:59 ◼   ► The operating system for the home hubs, and going back to the one that

01:03:01 ◼   ► that hopefully will be unveiled next week, is a mixture of iPad like app

01:03:06 ◼   ► designs, so kind of making use of the space.

01:03:08 ◼   ► We've watched OS style kind of app icon launcher.

01:03:11 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:03:12 ◼   ► Has a lot of widgets in the home screen UI.

01:03:15 ◼   ► Some clock designs and photo slideshows that are apparently very reminiscent of the new

01:03:20 ◼   ► stabby mode shown with the iPhone Duo.

01:03:23 ◼   ► This is a real like buffet of features going to this product.

01:03:26 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

01:03:27 ◼   ► And obviously Siri AI all over the place.

01:03:29 ◼   ► Of course.

01:03:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:30 ◼   ► Of course.

01:03:31 ◼   ► Why this thing's been delayed for like seven years.

01:03:33 ◼   ► No coincidence that probably the work that went into this and the iPhone Duos

01:03:37 ◼   ► standby mode are probably the same or using the same APIs and stuff.

01:03:42 ◼   ► 'Cause that Apple loves to re reuse pieces of And also just the the

01:03:47 ◼   ► this product up and down is kind of an omission of some stuff of

01:03:51 ◼   ► like what they needed their AI experience to be and also that my word,

01:03:56 ◼   ► do not build another platform.

01:03:58 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:03:59 ◼   ► We don't need another app store.

01:04:01 ◼   ► No.

01:04:02 ◼   ► Apparently Apple's gonna have versions of its own apps on there.

01:04:04 ◼   ► I don't know what that means for third parties, but I expect widgets.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Like I you know, like

01:04:12 ◼   ► how is Spotify on this, right?

01:04:14 ◼   ► Like how are we getting there?

01:04:16 ◼   ► How is YouTube on this?

01:04:19 ◼   ► Is it just app mirror like this is there has to be a story

01:04:23 ◼   ► there, right?

01:04:24 ◼   ► But I don't think the story is home hub OS, home hub app store.

01:04:28 ◼   ► Like it I don't think that's what we're we're gonna get.

01:04:32 ◼   ► It's possible that there's a since this is rumored to be based on a

01:04:38 ◼   ► version of T V OS, I do wonder if maybe the solution to the

01:04:43 ◼   ► App Store problem

01:04:45 ◼   ► is something weird like a paired app.

01:04:51 ◼   ► So follow me here.

01:04:52 ◼   ► You say, what about Spotify?

01:04:54 ◼   ► Well, if you've got Spotify in your iPhone, I I wonder if a developer

01:04:58 ◼   ► will be able to generate something that's very like a T V OS app

01:05:03 ◼   ► that is coply.

01:05:04 ◼   ► Ex that that is in well and maybe even that is a part of

01:05:09 ◼   ► the package.

01:05:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:05:11 ◼   ► That is a binary that gets synced like on an Apple Watch, gets synced

01:05:16 ◼   ► to the device.

01:05:18 ◼   ► I if you imagine if we take whatever OS this is out of it

01:05:21 ◼   ► and just imagine it's Apple TV, what if apps didn't go on your Apple

01:05:25 ◼   ► TV through the App Store app on the Apple TV?

01:05:28 ◼   ► What if they went on your Apple TV because your Apple TV is connected

01:05:31 ◼   ► to an iPhone?

01:05:32 ◼   ► And if the iPhone loads the Spotify app and there's an Apple TV Spotify

01:05:35 ◼   ► app, Spotify shows up on your Apple TV, right?

01:05:38 ◼   ► That they could do that.

01:05:39 ◼   ► That's fairly straightforward.

01:05:40 ◼   ► They could do that with this, where there's no app store for it.

01:05:44 ◼   ► But if you're a div but there's a developer story, and the developer story

01:05:48 ◼   ► is everybody, you know, everybody who connects to this thing.

01:05:53 ◼   ► Is gonna have an iPhone and the iPhone app will be able to extrude

01:06:00 ◼   ► something, a widget, maybe even an app, some kind of experience to the device.

01:06:05 ◼   ► Maybe it's projection like CarPlay or maybe it's like a little watch app that

01:06:11 ◼   ► just kind of like goes, Yeah.

01:06:13 ◼   ► I know you can open the app store on the watch, right?

01:06:16 ◼   ► But you can also just But that was a mistake.

01:06:19 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

01:06:20 ◼   ► But but like for the most part, what happens is you download the iPhone

01:06:23 ◼   ► app.

01:06:23 ◼   ► And then in the watch app, you say, put the watch app on this

01:06:27 ◼   ► thing.

01:06:28 ◼   ► They they go together, essentially.

01:06:30 ◼   ► I could see them doing something like that.

01:06:31 ◼   ► So that, for example, Spotify or Netflix or Prime Video or whatever, that that's

01:06:40 ◼   ► how they would do it.

01:06:41 ◼   ► And and it wouldn't, and it wouldn't surprise me if

01:06:46 ◼   ► under the covers it was basically a TV app.

01:06:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:52 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:53 ◼   ► But but what they shouldn't do is make it like

01:06:58 ◼   ► a platform where the user is now managing a new set of apps and

01:07:02 ◼   ► stuff like that.

01:07:03 ◼   ► Like that needs to not be.

01:07:04 ◼   ► Or making it even a a a platform that every developer feels they need

01:07:08 ◼   ► to have some kind of thing for.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:09 ◼   ► Like it's you are basically if you don't exist on TV OS, you probably

01:07:14 ◼   ► don't need to be here.

01:07:15 ◼   ► I think that's probably true.

01:07:17 ◼   ► You know, with some basic exceptions.

01:07:20 ◼   ► Maybe if you're a to-do app or something or a calendar app, you might

01:07:23 ◼   ► want to have something, but maybe your widgets enough.

01:07:25 ◼   ► Maybe your widget isn't this is the thing of like how much of this

01:07:28 ◼   ► app is native stuff, how much of it is projecting from somewhere?

01:07:31 ◼   ► Like these are the stories we need to know.

01:07:33 ◼   ► But it's clear that they seem to be making a lot of decisions that

01:07:38 ◼   ► mean that if you do something in another place, you probably can do it

01:07:42 ◼   ► here as well.

01:07:43 ◼   ► Right?

01:07:43 ◼   ► Like if they kinda look like iPad apps.

01:07:45 ◼   ► Right.

01:07:46 ◼   ► And there's it's like you're not building this unique experience for this thing.

01:07:50 ◼   ► It's not like the Apple Watch, say, where where it's different.

01:07:53 ◼   ► So an interactive widget would work, a little mini app would work.

01:07:57 ◼   ► Um if it's not there on day one, I suspect that that's where they're

01:08:01 ◼   ► going with it.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And that's that's that's great.

01:08:04 ◼   ► Either either way, right?

01:08:04 ◼   ► Like how they engineer it isn't the point.

01:08:06 ◼   ► The point is if you do have a third party app, you're ultimately gonna

01:08:09 ◼   ► want to be on there in some form.

01:08:11 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:11 ◼   ► And they're gonna want you there.

01:08:12 ◼   ► They are gonna want you there.

01:08:14 ◼   ► But I don't think it's gonna be here's our new platform, right?

01:08:17 ◼   ► A completely new app that's unlike anything you've ever done before.

01:08:19 ◼   ► It'll either be like a widget or it'll be like a TV app or

01:08:22 ◼   ► it'll be like an iPhone app.

01:08:24 ◼   ► And again, my gut feeling is it's either gonna project or it's going to

01:08:28 ◼   ► be like a little thing that gets synced up to the device.

01:08:30 ◼   ► Future of the home is apps.

01:08:32 ◼   ► Oh God.

01:08:33 ◼   ► You said about the app store on on Watch OS.

01:08:36 ◼   ► What what world were we heading towards that like the watch needed to be

01:08:42 ◼   ► really signposted as a standalone device.

01:08:45 ◼   ► Why why was that well that was a thing we cared about?

01:08:48 ◼   ► That was a real weird time, but I think it says something about Apple

01:08:54 ◼   ► getting stuck in a rut, right?

01:08:57 ◼   ► And I think this is

01:09:00 ◼   ► I think it's it's telling about Apple's approach to the app store in general

01:09:04 ◼   ► and a lot of the a lot of this is when I talk about

01:09:06 ◼   ► change and about Tim and all these other executives that have been there for

01:09:09 ◼   ► so long and them leaving being a good thing, even if they did a

01:09:13 ◼   ► good job being a good thing.

01:09:15 ◼   ► The Apple Watch, which is a long time ago now, but twelve years ago

01:09:18 ◼   ► but l it's a good example of this, where the Apple Watch having an

01:09:21 ◼   ► app story and an app store is so much about Apple saying, Well, obviously

01:09:27 ◼   ► our customers have spoken and every device that we ever make should have an

01:09:30 ◼   ► app store.

01:09:32 ◼   ► And it shouldn't.

01:09:34 ◼   ► But that said, I do use Apple.

01:09:36 ◼   ► Watch apps.

01:09:37 ◼   ► So there being apps is totally fine and makes a lot of sense.

01:09:42 ◼   ► But like

01:09:43 ◼   ► just like th this thought that there had to be a browsing experience.

01:09:49 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

01:09:49 ◼   ► And like that was required for it to be considered a standalone device.

01:09:54 ◼   ► Right?

01:09:54 ◼   ► Like anyone was ever gonna be like, I'm just an Apple Watch user.

01:09:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Right.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Very strange.

01:10:01 ◼   ► No, it's it's it's nonsense.

01:10:02 ◼   ► And it's true twelve years later.

01:10:04 ◼   ► You still have to do that.

01:10:04 ◼   ► They never actually did the last part.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Right?

01:10:07 ◼   ► Which was that you could just take it out of the box.

01:10:09 ◼   ► I think it's just a misconception.

01:10:10 ◼   ► I think I think they it was just a different part they were playing

01:10:13 ◼   ► the hits.

01:10:13 ◼   ► It was a different part It was the path that led to there's an

01:10:17 ◼   ► app store for the TV, there's app store for iMessage, there's an app store

01:10:20 ◼   ► for Vision OS.

01:10:22 ◼   ► Also, I'll give you I'll give you a little bit of a hot take

01:10:25 ◼   ► here.

01:10:25 ◼   ► Love it.

01:10:26 ◼   ► Which is

01:10:27 ◼   ► I am not a fan of the this would never happen if Steve Jobs

01:10:31 ◼   ► were alive stuff, right?

01:10:32 ◼   ► But if there's ever a product that Steve Jobs would have said no to,

01:10:35 ◼   ► it was the Apple Watch as it was conceived in 2014.

01:10:41 ◼   ► Because Nobody said no to anything.

01:10:45 ◼   ► The Apple Watch was all things to all people.

01:10:47 ◼   ► That first the my my standard joke about the 2014 Apple Watch launch, which

01:10:52 ◼   ► was, by the way, my last day at Macworld, um, was what doesn't it

01:10:57 ◼   ► do?

01:10:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Because it did everything.

01:10:59 ◼   ► It it had everything.

01:11:01 ◼   ► It it didn't do any of them well, but it did everything.

01:11:04 ◼   ► And that was a mistake.

01:11:06 ◼   ► Like they couldn't pick or they refused to pick or different people my theory,

01:11:11 ◼   ► different people in positions of power couldn't agree on omitting somebody's pet feature.

01:11:17 ◼   ► So they put it all in there, including digital touch.

01:11:20 ◼   ► And in hindsight, it's like

01:11:24 ◼   ► I mean in hindsight, we've learned what the Apple Watch is good and bad.

01:11:29 ◼   ► It's it's an i it's an iPhone accessory that can run software synced from

01:11:35 ◼   ► your iPhone, but probably not very much of it and not too sophisticated.

01:11:39 ◼   ► And it sinks back and and you use it for notifications and health and

01:11:45 ◼   ► activity.

01:11:46 ◼   ► Yep.

01:11:47 ◼   ► Like w and and they might have gotten it wrong back then but they

01:11:51 ◼   ► didn't try to simplify.

01:11:54 ◼   ► They just did everything.

01:11:55 ◼   ► So and but I think it uh it shows you Apple got so much

01:12:00 ◼   ► success from the App Store

01:12:02 ◼   ► that a lot of people in Apple just got real app store brained.

01:12:06 ◼   ► Like everything, you know that people talk about like software brain, how people get

01:12:09 ◼   ► this kind of like broken view of the world because they think everything is

01:12:12 ◼   ► software and it's not.

01:12:14 ◼   ► Apple totally got app store brained, where the solution to everything was an app

01:12:18 ◼   ► store.

01:12:19 ◼   ► And the future of T V is apps.

01:12:21 ◼   ► It just it was an it was an app store for iMessage.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I know.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Why were they not just apps that could put things in iMessage?

01:12:30 ◼   ► Again.

01:12:32 ◼   ► Yeah, it's it's I I don't know.

01:12:35 ◼   ► I can't remember how I felt about it at the time, right?

01:12:39 ◼   ► Whether I thought it was ridiculous or not.

01:12:41 ◼   ► I think I was excited about some of the things that it enabled, like

01:12:44 ◼   ► the iMessage App Store, but the fact that there's an app there was an

01:12:48 ◼   ► app store for iMessage

01:12:51 ◼   ► that you got to in the iMessage in underneath the keyboard, there was an

01:12:56 ◼   ► app store.

01:12:57 ◼   ► There was an app store.

01:12:58 ◼   ► He can just lift one up and that's an app store.

01:13:01 ◼   ► What am I doing?

01:13:01 ◼   ► Forget it, Mike.

01:13:02 ◼   ► It's App Store brain.

01:13:03 ◼   ► That's just it's believable times.

01:13:05 ◼   ► I mean this is this is I mean, you could see it.

01:13:07 ◼   ► It's in hindsight, it's very clear.

01:13:08 ◼   ► Apple just decided to apply an App Store to everything as if that was

01:13:11 ◼   ► the answer.

01:13:12 ◼   ► And then what happened is over time the amount of apps submitted to these

01:13:16 ◼   ► app stores got smaller and smaller.

01:13:18 ◼   ► And then we got television.

01:13:20 ◼   ► The future of computing, there are no apps.

01:13:23 ◼   ► There are no apps.

01:13:24 ◼   ► So this is the thing that we and all our upgradian friends should watch

01:13:31 ◼   ► about this home hub.

01:13:32 ◼   ► Yes.

01:13:33 ◼   ► Is what is the app story, or perhaps what is the not app story?

01:13:40 ◼   ► Because

01:13:41 ◼   ► you're going to your point you're going to want to do things with this

01:13:45 ◼   ► thing that are not supported by Apple's apps.

01:13:49 ◼   ► So what happens?

01:13:50 ◼   ► But like again, if it's really an Apple ecosystem play and you can take

01:13:56 ◼   ► an iPhone or, you know, maybe eventually an iPad or something, and sync it

01:14:00 ◼   ► and sync something to it, a widget, a a little app extension,

01:14:06 ◼   ► that's all you need.

01:14:08 ◼   ► Um

01:14:09 ◼   ► but but yeah, this is this is like a real question of how Apple

01:14:13 ◼   ► thinks about a device like this, because I don't think it should have an

01:14:18 ◼   ► app story.

01:14:18 ◼   ► And the reports are that it doesn't have an app story.

01:14:23 ◼   ► But if not then what?

01:14:25 ◼   ► What what is the answer?

01:14:26 ◼   ► Otherwise.

01:14:27 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:14:28 ◼   ► But it will be really interesting to see.

01:14:30 ◼   ► Well, we're not very far away now.

01:14:31 ◼   ► Apparently it's next week.

01:14:33 ◼   ► So So that's wild.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:36 ◼   ► Bearing in mind we're recording early.

01:14:37 ◼   ► I mean it's very unlikely that before the episode comes out on Monday that

01:14:41 ◼   ► they'll start inviting the media.

01:14:43 ◼   ► But just just as a note, right?

01:14:44 ◼   ► Like we don't know very soon potentially, and we are recording a couple of

01:14:48 ◼   ► days in advance.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:51 ◼   ► This episode is brought to you by Design in California.

01:14:54 ◼   ► Oh, it's a podcast that we make.

01:14:56 ◼   ► Uh this week's episode of Design in California is the final in our series

01:15:01 ◼   ► on Apple's macOS crisis.

01:15:03 ◼   ► So at this point, Gil Emilio, Steve Jobs, they just need to finalize their

01:15:07 ◼   ► deal, announce it to the world that next is going to be joining Apple

01:15:11 ◼   ► and become the foundation of the Mac.

01:15:14 ◼   ► But is Steve happy?

01:15:17 ◼   ► Is he happy, Jason?

01:15:18 ◼   ► What is in the mind of Steve Jobs is so much of what's in

01:15:23 ◼   ► this episode.

01:15:24 ◼   ► Um Gil Emilio is trying to pin him down on what his job what

01:15:28 ◼   ► his role is going to be at Apple.

01:15:29 ◼   ► Is he gonna have a role at all?

01:15:31 ◼   ► Yep.

01:15:31 ◼   ► Gil really wants him to have a role.

01:15:33 ◼   ► He doesn't he knows the press will love it if Steve is around, but

01:15:37 ◼   ► what would that role be?

01:15:38 ◼   ► Yep.

01:15:38 ◼   ► And what is in the mind of Steve?

01:15:40 ◼   ► Is Steve in fact one of the things we debate, isn't it?

01:15:44 ◼   ► Is Steve plotting all along the downfall of Gil Emilio and to take over

01:15:48 ◼   ► as CEO of Apple?

01:15:50 ◼   ► Or

01:15:52 ◼   ► is Steve not thinking about that?

01:15:54 ◼   ► Or is he legitimately conflicted about what's going on?

01:15:58 ◼   ► And I don't think I have theories, but I don't think there's a clear

01:16:02 ◼   ► answer.

01:16:02 ◼   ► But it's like if you believe there's a clear answer to that question, oh,

01:16:06 ◼   ► of course Steve was plotting it all along.

01:16:09 ◼   ► I think we will convince you otherwise.

01:16:11 ◼   ► So this is the final episode.

01:16:13 ◼   ► This will be the final episode of this series.

01:16:15 ◼   ► This is a series that we will continue to come back to with our

01:16:18 ◼   ► special guest John Syracuse.

01:16:19 ◼   ► So because the plan with John is to tell the story of OS Ten.

01:16:24 ◼   ► Of all of it.

01:16:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:25 ◼   ► All of it.

01:16:25 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:16:25 ◼   ► We haven't gotten there yet.

01:16:27 ◼   ► Nope.

01:16:27 ◼   ► We will though.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Maybe next time.

01:16:30 ◼   ► Uh who knows?

01:16:31 ◼   ► It is impossible to know.

01:16:33 ◼   ► We'll tell more of that story next time.

01:16:34 ◼   ► We will continue to tell the story.

01:16:36 ◼   ► When we actually get to OS 10, who could tell?

01:16:38 ◼   ► There's actually still quite a bit to go.

01:16:41 ◼   ► So if we're finishing up that series of John, what's next?

01:16:45 ◼   ► Well, next week begins our series on the origins of the iPod.

01:16:50 ◼   ► Let's start with the history of the MP3 and the digital hub strategy, then

01:16:55 ◼   ► talks about the components, the people and the decision making that leads to the

01:17:00 ◼   ► first iPod released twenty-five years ago.

01:17:03 ◼   ► Some amazing moments in that series including um finding the guy who's gonna build

01:17:09 ◼   ► the iPod on a chairlift in Vail.

01:17:12 ◼   ► Yep.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Uh and also the magical romantic moment.

01:17:18 ◼   ► When Johnny Ive met his very best friend, the color white.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Yes.

01:17:24 ◼   ► Or one of my favorite moments.

01:17:26 ◼   ► Uh the creation of the click wheel.

01:17:28 ◼   ► Where that came from.

01:17:29 ◼   ► Where uh the surprise inspiration of the click.

01:17:31 ◼   ► Surprise, inspiration of the clickwheel yes.

01:17:33 ◼   ► Brilliant series that starts uh next week.

01:17:37 ◼   ► Yes.

01:17:37 ◼   ► Um and so you can celebrate the anniversary of this groundbreaking product by listening

01:17:41 ◼   ► to Designing California, our wonderful podcast.

01:17:44 ◼   ► Members of Designing California next Wednesday get all five episodes in the Origins of

01:17:50 ◼   ► iPod series at once and everyone else will get them rolling out over the

01:17:54 ◼   ► next five weeks.

01:17:55 ◼   ► Um people I also want to mention people have really been enjoying the show

01:17:58 ◼   ► on YouTube as well.

01:18:00 ◼   ► It's a great production for YouTube.

01:18:02 ◼   ► Um, it's it's exactly the same as the audio version from an edit perspective.

01:18:06 ◼   ► Obviously, it's me and Jason.

01:18:07 ◼   ► We also include some imagery in there.

01:18:10 ◼   ► And actually the iPod series, particularly, I think, will be nice uh on YouTube

01:18:15 ◼   ► because you made some uh you actually re did some video recording of your

01:18:18 ◼   ► original iPod I got my original iPod out at my strong request.

01:18:23 ◼   ► Yeah, you you ordered me to do that.

01:18:25 ◼   ► And I had to go on eBay and find find firewire firewire charger because

01:18:30 ◼   ► I could attach it to a computer via firewire, but it doesn't iPod mode

01:18:34 ◼   ► when it's attached to a computer.

01:18:36 ◼   ► So I had to I had to do that.

01:18:37 ◼   ► And I I have lost my Firewire power adapter.

01:18:40 ◼   ► So Um, did that and then shot a bunch of video and shot some

01:18:44 ◼   ► pictures and there's a picture of my bo I saw the box.

01:18:47 ◼   ► So the box is in there.

01:18:48 ◼   ► It's good stuff.

01:18:49 ◼   ► Um and and uh some file footage and all sorts of other stuff in

01:18:52 ◼   ► there.

01:18:52 ◼   ► So people should check it out.

01:18:53 ◼   ► And yeah if you're a member, you get all five episodes at once next

01:18:55 ◼   ► week.

01:18:56 ◼   ► And if not, that's fine.

01:18:58 ◼   ► You'll just get 'em over the next five weeks starting next week.

01:19:00 ◼   ► But only if you go and let check it out.

01:19:02 ◼   ► So if you have yet to check out Design in California, this is us

01:19:06 ◼   ► telling you to do it.

01:19:07 ◼   ► Do it.

01:19:07 ◼   ► You know, like maybe you were like, I don't know if I want to

01:19:09 ◼   ► hear about the Mac, right?

01:19:11 ◼   ► But maybe you want to hear about the iPod.

01:19:12 ◼   ► And I think that once you check out a series of the show you'd

01:19:15 ◼   ► be like, you know what, I would like to hear about that other stuff

01:19:17 ◼   ► too 'cause this stuff's really interesting.

01:19:19 ◼   ► I think if you listen to the show and enjoy the show, you will

01:19:22 ◼   ► enjoy Design in California.

01:19:23 ◼   ► And we're gonna continue to give you many, many reasons because we're gonna be

01:19:27 ◼   ► doing many, many series of this show.

01:19:29 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:19:30 ◼   ► Uh I would hope for a very long time.

01:19:33 ◼   ► I hope so.

01:19:33 ◼   ► So that's at relay.fm slash designed.

01:19:36 ◼   ► Uh where you can also find us on YouTube.

01:19:38 ◼   ► There'll be links in the show notes.

01:19:39 ◼   ► There's actually links to all of our platforms uh over at relay.fm slash designed.

01:19:44 ◼   ► It is time for some ask upgrade questions.

01:19:47 ◼   ► Kyle wants to know, what is your favorite Memphis barbecue?

01:19:52 ◼   ► Um I haven't been to them all.

01:19:54 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:19:54 ◼   ► But my go-to is Central.

01:19:56 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:19:58 ◼   ► We're actually going to go to Central.

01:20:00 ◼   ► In a matter of minutes.

01:20:01 ◼   ► We're after the show is over, we're going to Central Barbecue.

01:20:04 ◼   ► Which we're looking forward to.

01:20:05 ◼   ► And And Jason has a menu hack, which he shared of us all last

01:20:09 ◼   ► year.

01:20:10 ◼   ► Just the good item, the best item on the menu.

01:20:12 ◼   ► Oh, and last year I last year, you know, sometimes you have a meal

01:20:14 ◼   ► with a group and somebody orders something and you're like, oh, that was the

01:20:17 ◼   ► best one.

01:20:18 ◼   ► I got that last year.

01:20:19 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:19 ◼   ► And it was the brisket nachos.

01:20:21 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:22 ◼   ► Oh, so good.

01:20:23 ◼   ► It was so good.

01:20:24 ◼   ► I had it after I had it I think the next day.

01:20:27 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:20:28 ◼   ► So it was Central the next day.

01:20:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:31 ◼   ► So this time I'm very much looking forward to getting on the the Natural

01:20:34 ◼   ► Train Review.

01:20:34 ◼   ► But yeah, I've only no, I haven't only had central I've eaten other places.

01:20:39 ◼   ► It's it's my favorite.

01:20:40 ◼   ► It's great.

01:20:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:41 ◼   ► It's great central barbecue.

01:20:42 ◼   ► There's several locations here, but that's you know, that that's the one that's hit

01:20:46 ◼   ► me the best.

01:20:46 ◼   ► I'm sure there are others that I will have to go to sometime, but

01:20:50 ◼   ► um also where we tend to stay is right by the downtown central.

01:20:54 ◼   ► So it's easy to walk over there and you can see it.

01:20:56 ◼   ► You can smell it, maybe depending on how the wind's for sure.

01:20:59 ◼   ► Mark wants to know, do you think Apple will take the duo format and

01:21:03 ◼   ► blow it up to a clamshell like iPad duo somewhere?

01:21:07 ◼   ► Anything is possible.

01:21:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:10 ◼   ► But I am skeptical.

01:21:13 ◼   ► It makes less sense.

01:21:15 ◼   ► Well this is the thing is I think innovating and iterating on the iPhone

01:21:19 ◼   ► makes sense because the most important reason you do a foldable is because you

01:21:23 ◼   ► want to carry it in your pocket.

01:21:25 ◼   ► Yep.

01:21:25 ◼   ► And then open it up and have it be big.

01:21:27 ◼   ► And an iPad, like, I don't know.

01:21:31 ◼   ► I mean, I could see some utility, but it's a victory over, you know,

01:21:36 ◼   ► the dynamics of the device size than it would be if you were uh

01:21:42 ◼   ► you know trying to get a phone that fits in your pocket and also

01:21:45 ◼   ► has the biggest screen possible.

01:21:46 ◼   ► That's premise of a foldable device, I think, is exactly that.

01:21:50 ◼   ► And um I think it breaks down when you start talking about bigger devices

01:21:56 ◼   ► because at that point I'm not sure it really makes sense.

01:21:58 ◼   ► Yep.

01:21:59 ◼   ► Eric writes in and says, The light blue and burgundy combo is a go

01:22:04 ◼   ► to color combo this year.

01:22:05 ◼   ► I'm seeing it everywhere in fashion and interior design.

01:22:09 ◼   ► Do you think that Apple got lucky or specifically picked the colors that seem

01:22:13 ◼   ► to be in vogue this year?

01:22:16 ◼   ► I don't think luck had anything to do with it.

01:22:18 ◼   ► I think I think the people who are making okay, maybe they were lucky.

01:22:23 ◼   ► But I I would say I think Apple picks its colors carefully.

01:22:29 ◼   ► So I will agree.

01:22:29 ◼   ► I've seen the Burgundy and blue.

01:22:31 ◼   ► I think the the blue that you see most paired with burgundy is not

01:22:35 ◼   ► the blue that Apple chose.

01:22:36 ◼   ► It's not glacier.

01:22:37 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:22:38 ◼   ► It's a bit more Robin's egg.

01:22:40 ◼   ► And we can disagree.

01:22:41 ◼   ► And when I rant about the colors are, I'm disagreeing about Apple's decisions.

01:22:45 ◼   ► But I have no doubt when you look at their watch bands

01:22:49 ◼   ► and the device colors that there are a lot of people in Apple that

01:22:53 ◼   ► are very concerned about trends in fashion and color and how to reflect those

01:23:00 ◼   ► in Apple products.

01:23:02 ◼   ► I think the bands and cases

01:23:05 ◼   ► are definitely chosen by people who are trying to hit the trends.

01:23:12 ◼   ► I don't know

01:23:14 ◼   ► if you can get that far ahead with an iPhone.

01:23:17 ◼   ► I was gonna say I I think the devices they're trying to do it,

01:23:20 ◼   ► but there's two things.

01:23:21 ◼   ► One is they are gonna have to make that decision much earlier and trends

01:23:25 ◼   ► can change.

01:23:26 ◼   ► And the other is

01:23:29 ◼   ► there are physical constraints on an iPhone.

01:23:33 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:33 ◼   ► Because they have to be rugged and they use a particular production process

01:23:39 ◼   ► and that probably affects or an iPhone or a or a laptop or wh

01:23:44 ◼   ► whatever that product is.

01:23:45 ◼   ► The color the actual color hue that is available is probably limited by the

01:23:51 ◼   ► production process of the iPhone eighteen pro, let's say.

01:23:54 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:23:55 ◼   ► And so put those two things together and I think it's a tougher thing

01:23:59 ◼   ► for them to do.

01:24:00 ◼   ► But I do think they try.

01:24:02 ◼   ► I just think it's harder to if you can do it, you try it.

01:24:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:06 ◼   ► And I would say that

01:24:08 ◼   ► I don't like the colours this year, but I am not unhappy about it

01:24:14 ◼   ► in the strategy.

01:24:16 ◼   ► I wouldn't expect to every year like the colours that they offer.

01:24:20 ◼   ► That's not how fashion works.

01:24:24 ◼   ► I'm happy that they have continued to have

01:24:28 ◼   ► to continue to make bold color decisions.

01:24:30 ◼   ► I think that burgundy is a bold color decision.

01:24:34 ◼   ► I don't like it, but I like that it is it feels to me

01:24:38 ◼   ► as strong a decision as Cosmic Orange, just in a different direction.

01:24:41 ◼   ► Sure.

01:24:42 ◼   ► Right?

01:24:42 ◼   ► 'Cause it's like that is a that's a big color statement.

01:24:46 ◼   ► Uh and I think it's divisive.

01:24:47 ◼   ► And I think that's what they should be doing, especially when they offer four.

01:24:51 ◼   ► There's four this year, right?

01:24:52 ◼   ► Like so you can get silver or black if that's what you want, or

01:24:57 ◼   ► you can go with one of the color choices.

01:24:59 ◼   ► Richard asks, are you at all concerned that Apple may wait an entire year

01:25:05 ◼   ► until OS twenty eight to meaningfully update Siri AI?

01:25:09 ◼   ► How would you rate the chances of a major improvement as part of twenty

01:25:13 ◼   ► seven point four, for example?

01:25:14 ◼   ► So this goes back to what we were talking about earlier with agents, but

01:25:17 ◼   ► what about the actual AI experience?

01:25:19 ◼   ► I I mean,

01:25:22 ◼   ► I am concerned.

01:25:24 ◼   ► That is the question.

01:25:25 ◼   ► I am concerned.

01:25:27 ◼   ► I would like to believe that they've learned and are going to be capable

01:25:30 ◼   ► of updating their models midstream

01:25:33 ◼   ► and updating functionality that uses their models midstream.

01:25:39 ◼   ► But until we see them do it,

01:25:42 ◼   ► I'm gonna be concerned about it.

01:25:45 ◼   ► But like, there's no reason that you shouldn't be able to put a new

01:25:51 ◼   ► model under the covers with an OS update and have it be a better

01:25:55 ◼   ► model.

01:25:56 ◼   ► If you're working on a better model, the last thing you want to do

01:25:59 ◼   ► is get the better model in March and say, Well, this is great.

01:26:02 ◼   ► We'll ship it in September.

01:26:04 ◼   ► Like you can't do that.

01:26:05 ◼   ► You should ship it in March or April.

01:26:08 ◼   ► So I am concerned And then separately, like I said, it's also about the

01:26:12 ◼   ► implementation of features that are are using those models and not saying, well, we've

01:26:18 ◼   ► got a new thing we could do with Siri AI.

01:26:20 ◼   ► Let's not do it until next September.

01:26:22 ◼   ► I I would I would love like to believe that some of that stuff's

01:26:25 ◼   ► gonna get fast tracked because they have been behind and they're still catching up.

01:26:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:30 ◼   ► And they may just be catching up forever and they need to move fast.

01:26:33 ◼   ► But I'm concerned because, as we said, culturally there There's been a real resistance.

01:26:41 ◼   ► Their system isn't built to do it.

01:26:43 ◼   ► The resistance to it is not necessarily people.

01:26:46 ◼   ► It may be the system.

01:26:48 ◼   ► And some people are probably

01:26:51 ◼   ► responsible for building that system but it maybe was built for a time when

01:26:55 ◼   ► the priorities were different.

01:26:56 ◼   ► But regardless, the system needs to change and you know, we'll see.

01:27:01 ◼   ► But I am concerned, I would say I I think it's possible, I think

01:27:05 ◼   ► it's obvious that they need to I am concerned.

01:27:07 ◼   ► Me too.

01:27:08 ◼   ► And Mahir asks, what does smoking apple two smell like?

01:27:13 ◼   ► So at ten hours and twenty-five minutes in the podcast of time, there is

01:27:18 ◼   ► a timestamp link.

01:27:20 ◼   ► You will we're sitting around playing a game and there's an Apple two on

01:27:24 ◼   ► the desk which had previously, a little while before been playing the Oregon Trail.

01:27:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:28 ◼   ► Which is a great segment.

01:27:29 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:27:30 ◼   ► It's a fun thing to be able to play what was essentially a very

01:27:33 ◼   ► thematically appropriate game from original Apple II hardware.

01:27:37 ◼   ► Yep.

01:27:37 ◼   ► So we're sitting playing a different game, like a word game, and you'll see,

01:27:42 ◼   ► if you look at the Apple II, you will see smoke start to emit

01:27:46 ◼   ► from around the power cable.

01:27:49 ◼   ► We're all laughing and joking.

01:27:50 ◼   ► And then I go, Oh and point at the computer because there's smoke coming

01:27:55 ◼   ► out of the computer.

01:27:56 ◼   ► And the reason I pointed this doesn't come up in the video, I heard

01:27:59 ◼   ► something pop.

01:28:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:00 ◼   ► And it took caught my attention.

01:28:02 ◼   ► Apple's uh Steven's Apple II, his original Apple II, which had an original power

01:28:07 ◼   ► supply.

01:28:08 ◼   ► Smoke is pouring out of the computer.

01:28:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:28:11 ◼   ► You'll see Steven somewhat gingerly but confidently yank the power cable out of the

01:28:16 ◼   ► back of it.

01:28:17 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:28:17 ◼   ► We start knocking things on the floor because also Casey's original iPod Nano is

01:28:22 ◼   ► just lit against the back of it.

01:28:25 ◼   ► Uh and and then uh we all start freaking out and trying to blow

01:28:28 ◼   ► the smoke away and cut to a break because unfortunately Steven's Apple II uh

01:28:34 ◼   ► bit the dust.

01:28:35 ◼   ► But it was it was just the power supply.

01:28:37 ◼   ► Everything else seems to be fine.

01:28:38 ◼   ► He bought a new power supply this morning.

01:28:40 ◼   ► Okay.

01:28:40 ◼   ► So he he he took a look at it.

01:28:41 ◼   ► He said to me today he took it out and shook it and it

01:28:44 ◼   ► sounded like a maracca.

01:28:45 ◼   ► So some stuff happened inside of that power supply.

01:28:49 ◼   ► So to answer me here, it smelled real bad.

01:28:51 ◼   ► It smelled really

01:28:53 ◼   ► bad.

01:28:54 ◼   ► I mean we did we had to take it Stephen took it out on

01:28:56 ◼   ► the loading dock.

01:28:57 ◼   ► Yes.

01:28:57 ◼   ► Because it was still emitting smoke.

01:28:59 ◼   ► Smoke for quite a while.

01:29:01 ◼   ► Here's what I would tell you it smelled like.

01:29:02 ◼   ► It smelled like old smoke.

01:29:04 ◼   ► That's what it smelled like.

01:29:05 ◼   ► Smoke that was old.

01:29:07 ◼   ► Like dust and smoke.

01:29:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:10 ◼   ► And it was a white smoke.

01:29:12 ◼   ► Like it was Yeah, they they they did not elect a new Pope.

01:29:15 ◼   ► No.

01:29:17 ◼   ► They did not.

01:29:18 ◼   ► That poor computer.

01:29:21 ◼   ► Stephen was Well I say it's he was upset about it, right?

01:29:25 ◼   ► But got over it much quicker than I thought he would have.

01:29:29 ◼   ► I think we all diagnosed it as being a power supply issue pretty quickly.

01:29:32 ◼   ► And he's like,

01:29:35 ◼   ► Oh no, my Apple II just go on fire, you know?

01:29:38 ◼   ► But it was it was confined to the power supply.

01:29:39 ◼   ► Which is why which is this big rectangular part, like it's a single part.

01:29:44 ◼   ► And it was clear that that's where everything was happening.

01:29:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:47 ◼   ► So then he felt okay.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:49 ◼   ► But that was uh Man, I was really worried they were gonna evacuate us

01:29:53 ◼   ► out of that studio and I do not know I'll tell you right now.

01:29:57 ◼   ► I have no doubt that there are lots of plans.

01:30:00 ◼   ► I don't know what they are in that scenario.

01:30:03 ◼   ► It turns out that loading dock is the fastest way out of there.

01:30:06 ◼   ► Oh, I know that.

01:30:07 ◼   ► I mean, um, what happens if we have to evacuate the street?

01:30:10 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:30:10 ◼   ► Right?

01:30:11 ◼   ► Like what happens to the stream?

01:30:12 ◼   ► Like I'm sh I have no doubt that there are 'cause there are so

01:30:16 ◼   ► many professionals that they have like oh, this is what we do, we unplug

01:30:21 ◼   ► this computer, that kind of thing.

01:30:22 ◼   ► Like that thing they had for like when the Queen died, they were like,