Developing Perspective

00:00:00 ◼   ► So if you're anything like me and an app developer right now, you probably

00:00:03 ◼   ► are finding yourself in deep in the throes of iPhone Duo preparations and trying

00:00:09 ◼   ► to get ready for the new phone variant, iPhone that is coming out.

00:00:15 ◼   ► Uh on October 23rd.

00:00:17 ◼   ► And so that is an exciting time.

00:00:19 ◼   ► It's a busy time.

00:00:20 ◼   ► It is a complicated time.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Because this is one of many new platforms, new form factors, new surfaces that

00:00:28 ◼   ► I have built my apps for and had to adapt my apps to.

00:00:34 ◼   ► And as a result, I have a lot of experience about sort of thinking

00:00:38 ◼   ► through the question of is it a good idea?

00:00:40 ◼   ► Does it matter?

00:00:41 ◼   ► Is it important for me to do?

00:00:44 ◼   ► Should I be adapting to this new platform?

00:00:47 ◼   ► Because there have been times over the years where that has not worked out

00:00:50 ◼   ► well.

00:00:50 ◼   ► There have been times that that hasn't worked out so well.

00:00:53 ◼   ► And so I want to talk through both a little bit of a history

00:00:56 ◼   ► uh maybe like a little bit of a grade rubric of some of the

00:00:59 ◼   ► platforms that have launched over the years, whether they were worked out, whether they

00:01:03 ◼   ► didn't, and then sort of some advice maybe or thoughts about why I am

00:01:08 ◼   ► excited to be on the duo iPhone Duo, but not necessarily just for like

00:01:12 ◼   ► the obvious reasons.

00:01:13 ◼   ► So with that in mind, let's get started.

00:01:15 ◼   ► So the first platform that I want to talk through um is sort of

00:01:19 ◼   ► like I'm just sort of thinking roughly starting from my arrival into iOS development,

00:01:25 ◼   ► which is with the iPhone.

00:01:26 ◼   ► So in 2008, the new iPhone.

00:01:28 ◼   ► And obviously that platform, if I was gonna give it a letter grade, it's

00:01:31 ◼   ► like A.

00:01:32 ◼   ► Like it is the best platform that anyone has ever developed on in some

00:01:37 ◼   ► ways because it was this tremendously unusual thing where it was both successful in

00:01:43 ◼   ► the market, it was successful for developers, like everyone did really well.

00:01:47 ◼   ► And I mean 18 years on, I'm still making a living from my apps

00:01:52 ◼   ► and I'm ma you know, doing podcasts talking about what it is to be

00:01:57 ◼   ► uh an app developer.

00:01:58 ◼   ► So clearly A plus plus.

00:02:00 ◼   ► Uh maybe the next one would be the iPad a few years later, where

00:02:04 ◼   ► that is complicated, I would say, as a platform for developers.

00:02:08 ◼   ► Like it was successful in its own way, but it tended to be if

00:02:12 ◼   ► you had a niche or a more specific

00:02:16 ◼   ► Product that worked really well there.

00:02:18 ◼   ► Um, it did well.

00:02:19 ◼   ► I would say broadly over the course of my career, I've never found it

00:02:22 ◼   ► to be as good of a marketplace to be a place to make apps

00:02:26 ◼   ► as something like obviously the iPhone or some of the other things we'll talk

00:02:29 ◼   ► about later.

00:02:30 ◼   ► So maybe it's like a B minus kind of a platform.

00:02:33 ◼   ► If you had a particular use case, maybe it would be really higher, but

00:02:37 ◼   ► not particularly.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Um, then I think of things like so Game Center was a new thing

00:02:41 ◼   ► that came out around the same time as the iPad, but that was a

00:02:44 ◼   ► new surface that Apple provided for developers to put our apps on, which is

00:02:50 ◼   ► different than like a totally new platform.

00:02:52 ◼   ► But I'm thinking through the about these things in the same kind of a

00:02:55 ◼   ► way where it's a new place that I have an opportunity and a decision

00:02:59 ◼   ► to make of am I going to put my apps there?

00:03:02 ◼   ► Am I going to make my app on Game Center?

00:03:06 ◼   ► I never made games that didn't but the impression I got, and certainly the

00:03:09 ◼   ► history of Game Center, was that it was a thing that never really took

00:03:12 ◼   ► off.

00:03:13 ◼   ► That and this is a story that I think we'll hear time and time

00:03:15 ◼   ► again as I go through this, is like there's these surfaces that Apple is

00:03:18 ◼   ► trying.

00:03:19 ◼   ► Developers will try to get onto it and then very quickly thereafter it just

00:03:23 ◼   ► kind of simmers off and doesn't really go anywhere.

00:03:26 ◼   ► And that's really awkward as a developer.

00:03:28 ◼   ► So like in this case I would say like game center is probably a

00:03:31 ◼   ► D.

00:03:31 ◼   ► Like it just never seemed to really be meaningfully uh uh impactful.

00:03:35 ◼   ► And I maybe that's just because I'm not a game developer, but it just

00:03:38 ◼   ► never seemed to really get there.

00:03:40 ◼   ► Um maybe the next one is like the Mac App Store that came out

00:03:43 ◼   ► um the next year.

00:03:44 ◼   ► And that I think is like a definitely like kind of like a B

00:03:47 ◼   ► minus where I think it's one of these things where it has been really

00:03:51 ◼   ► useful to have a place to safely and securely and straightforwardly distribute Mac software.

00:03:58 ◼   ► The unfortunate thing is I think that Apple sort of only allowed, at least

00:04:02 ◼   ► initially, very limited types of applications to be there.

00:04:06 ◼   ► Typically the things that make an app such a compelling platform were things that

00:04:11 ◼   ► would make the Mac App Store less of a good fit.

00:04:13 ◼   ► So but it's still I think it's been useful overall.

00:04:16 ◼   ► I still get lots of apps from the Mac App Store when I'm not

00:04:18 ◼   ► getting something that can't uh you know only exist outside of it.

00:04:22 ◼   ► So I would say maybe B minus kind of a thing.

00:04:25 ◼   ► Uh next platform was Newsstand, which was where Apple wanted to turn the iPhone

00:04:29 ◼   ► into a magazine store, uh D tier maybe.

00:04:33 ◼   ► It like lasted very briefly and then just didn't seem to really like that.

00:04:38 ◼   ► That was not a platform, uh like a publishing platform in that way.

00:04:41 ◼   ► That I think if people want to get read content on their phone, they

00:04:45 ◼   ► will just use apps.

00:04:46 ◼   ► They don't need a new like surface to um sort of put that on.

00:04:50 ◼   ► Um the next one that comes to mind was extensions.

00:04:53 ◼   ► So a a in the period uh sort of thereafter, we started to get

00:04:57 ◼   ► more and more extensions that Apple would allow us to add.

00:05:00 ◼   ► So things like the first ones are like sharing extensions.

00:05:03 ◼   ► But there've been a couple of other kind of these more minor places where

00:05:08 ◼   ► you can tie in your app to a like there was a photo shi

00:05:11 ◼   ► photo editing extension and there's a couple of other these kind of you your

00:05:15 ◼   ► app can be a appear inside of something else.

00:05:19 ◼   ► Um I don't know, these like I feel like th they're very useful, but

00:05:23 ◼   ► they're not very impactful.

00:05:25 ◼   ► So like Widgetsmith has a sharing extension and pedometer plus plus as a sharing

00:05:30 ◼   ► extension for some of the things for inputting roots.

00:05:33 ◼   ► Like that's great, but th they're not actually impactful to the business, definitely.

00:05:38 ◼   ► They're very useful but not very impactful.

00:05:40 ◼   ► So maybe I'd give them like a B.

00:05:42 ◼   ► Um then we have the Apple Watch.

00:05:45 ◼   ► It's my favorite platform to develop on.

00:05:47 ◼   ► I love making Apple Watch apps.

00:05:48 ◼   ► Like I absolutely adore it.

00:05:50 ◼   ► It's tricky because there's just not a lot of demand for apps on the

00:05:53 ◼   ► Apple Watch.

00:05:54 ◼   ► I think, especially in the early years, it was an absurd platform to work

00:05:59 ◼   ► on where we had WatchKit 1, which was this wild hybrid iPhone projecting the

00:06:04 ◼   ► UI onto the phone thing.

00:06:06 ◼   ► Then we had WatchKit 2, which was this kind of terrible UI framework that

00:06:10 ◼   ► only ever existed for the Apple Watch.

00:06:12 ◼   ► Things got a lot better once we had Swift UI.

00:06:15 ◼   ► And so I may say maybe like Swift UI, Apple Watch development is like

00:06:19 ◼   ► a B plus.

00:06:20 ◼   ► And anything that has Watch Kit in the name was like a D, um,

00:06:23 ◼   ► for sure.

00:06:24 ◼   ► Uh then we have the Apple TV.

00:06:26 ◼   ► The future of you know the future of TV is apps.

00:06:29 ◼   ► Uh the future of T T V TV was not apps.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Um Apple TV was a platform that if you are Netflix, Prime Video, Apple

00:06:37 ◼   ► TV itself, these kinds of uh products, absolutely very useful, wonderful.

00:06:41 ◼   ► If you're not, it is not there.

00:06:43 ◼   ► So it's like a tier if you're Netflix and probably F tier for everyone

00:06:47 ◼   ► else.

00:06:47 ◼   ► I don't think it went anywhere.

00:06:49 ◼   ► Um the future of TV was definitely not apps.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Uh we have things like iMessage apps.

00:06:53 ◼   ► There was an entire app store inside of the iMessage app.

00:06:56 ◼   ► That was uh a thing.

00:06:57 ◼   ► I made a couple of those.

00:06:59 ◼   ► As far as I know, they were essentially never used.

00:07:01 ◼   ► I don't think anyone did use them.

00:07:03 ◼   ► They were just a really confusing UI.

00:07:05 ◼   ► Similarly with stickers and sticker packs, I don't think they went anywhere, like D

00:07:09 ◼   ► tier, maybe F tier.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Uh Siri intense.

00:07:12 ◼   ► This was a the thing not app intense, which we have now, but there

00:07:15 ◼   ► was a thing calling tense, which is these crazy things where you would configure

00:07:20 ◼   ► you would configure your intent like in this custom file format, which would be

00:07:25 ◼   ► then then generated into this other format that would then be used inside the

00:07:29 ◼   ► app.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Uh D tier did not work um and was replaced by something better, but

00:07:35 ◼   ► has its own problems, so we'll get to those in a minute.

00:07:37 ◼   ► Um next one I think about is widgets.

00:07:39 ◼   ► So widgets came in like twenty twenty.

00:07:42 ◼   ► Uh I gotta give it an A tier.

00:07:44 ◼   ► Um, uh not just because I made Widgetsmith and that like widgets changed my

00:07:48 ◼   ► life, but I think widgets were this great combination of usefulness uh and also

00:07:55 ◼   ► like it gave apps an opportunity to be in more places, to be in

00:08:00 ◼   ► relevant places, um, in a way that was didn't ask that much of the

00:08:05 ◼   ► customers, didn't ask them to really go and do the something complicated.

00:08:10 ◼   ► It was this very sort of natural evolution of a lot of experiences they

00:08:14 ◼   ► were used to.

00:08:15 ◼   ► I think they were really well.

00:08:16 ◼   ► Obviously I'm slightly biased because I make an app that is all about widgets,

00:08:19 ◼   ► but I think absolutely A tier, like super awesome thing there.

00:08:22 ◼   ► Um App Clips came out around the same time.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Uh I every now and then I go to a restaurant that has an

00:08:29 ◼   ► app clip.

00:08:30 ◼   ► Um I don't think they took off.

00:08:32 ◼   ► I don't think the benefit of a really small app that was limited in

00:08:36 ◼   ► so many ways ended up being that helpful.

00:08:39 ◼   ► So like C tier, D tier.

00:08:42 ◼   ► Um App Intense, this is interesting.

00:08:44 ◼   ► Like I think App Intense have great promise, but has also been like this

00:08:50 ◼   ► hammer in search of a nail, I guess.

00:08:53 ◼   ► Like it it feels like Apple is kept keeps trying to steer App Intense

00:08:58 ◼   ► into whatever it was.

00:08:59 ◼   ► And like now it's going into Siri AI is the thing that App Intense

00:09:02 ◼   ► is now driving.

00:09:03 ◼   ► It used to be more into shortcuts um and things there.

00:09:06 ◼   ► It do it always feels like it's this really weird compromise between

00:09:12 ◼   ► like exporting functionality in a structured way, but also then having that be useful,

00:09:18 ◼   ► having that be discoverable, having that be maintainable and predictable.

00:09:22 ◼   ► Like there's a lot of app intent code that I've written, which I look

00:09:25 ◼   ► at and it's like, I don't I hope it I think it works.

00:09:28 ◼   ► I don't really know.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Like 'cause the way in which it gets called can often be ab s

00:09:32 ◼   ► sort of abstract or obtuse.

00:09:33 ◼   ► And you have weird things where like app intents are used in places that

00:09:37 ◼   ► it doesn't feel like they should be.

00:09:38 ◼   ► Like some of the things on the Apple Watch where the app intent mechanism

00:09:42 ◼   ► for like controlling what goes onto the action button um feels really opaque and

00:09:47 ◼   ► kind of confusing and isn't easy for me to control and manage as a

00:09:52 ◼   ► user, which is very frustrat or as a developer and a user, uh to

00:09:55 ◼   ► be very f I find v be very frustrating.

00:09:58 ◼   ► Um the next sort of platform we got was live activities in the dynamic

00:10:01 ◼   ► island.

00:10:02 ◼   ► Similar to widgets, but probably like one tier down.

00:10:04 ◼   ► This is like a like a I'd give it maybe a B.

00:10:07 ◼   ► It's useful and there are certain places where it's really helpful but I think

00:10:11 ◼   ► it also is a new a technology that showcases how limited the abilities of

00:10:17 ◼   ► that are.

00:10:17 ◼   ► And so it doesn't really work um that very well.

00:10:20 ◼   ► But you know, it's a nice B.

00:10:21 ◼   ► Um Apple Vision Pro is the next one?

00:10:23 ◼   ► So that was oh boy, the Vision Pro.

00:10:26 ◼   ► Like it is a s as a developer platform, certainly the way it turned

00:10:30 ◼   ► out, it's like an F.

00:10:32 ◼   ► It didn't go anywhere, as far as I can tell.

00:10:34 ◼   ► I don't think there's been a viable sustainable, rich ecosystem on the Apple Vision

00:10:41 ◼   ► Pro.

00:10:41 ◼   ► Partly because the Vision Pro itself I just don't think was very successful and

00:10:44 ◼   ► didn't go very well.

00:10:45 ◼   ► The actual developers experience for that I think actually was really enjoyable.

00:10:49 ◼   ► I enjoyed making Vision Pro apps.

00:10:51 ◼   ► Unfortunately, they just no one um wanted to use them.

00:10:54 ◼   ► And so that just kind of sort of died off.

00:10:56 ◼   ► And that kind of brings us to today, to the iPhone Duo.

00:11:00 ◼   ► And it's an interesting platform because I'm separating it from the iPhone, you know,

00:11:05 ◼   ► from the A plus plus uh device and platform that we started with.

00:11:11 ◼   ► Because it's weird.

00:11:12 ◼   ► You unfold it and it's sort of like an iPad and you fold it

00:11:16 ◼   ► up and it's like a short and squat iPhone and you can keep shapeshifting

00:11:21 ◼   ► it into all these different poses and layouts and things.

00:11:24 ◼   ► And that is asking a lot of developers to be able to support it.

00:11:29 ◼   ► To do a good job on the duo requires a lot of work, effort,

00:11:33 ◼   ► and struggle that has been, you know, that has been my life for the

00:11:36 ◼   ► last couple of weeks is that struggle of like, ooh, how do I get

00:11:39 ◼   ► this to be really good?

00:11:41 ◼   ► And then is it worth it?

00:11:42 ◼   ► Right?

00:11:42 ◼   ► Like this is the classic question.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Like obviously I can't grade the duo yet.

00:11:46 ◼   ► It's very new.

00:11:47 ◼   ► Well it's very new.

00:11:48 ◼   ► It doesn't even exist yet.

00:11:49 ◼   ► It has to it's not coming out for a couple of weeks.

00:11:51 ◼   ► Um, but it's making me doing a lot of thinking about like why am

00:11:54 ◼   ► I excited about it?

00:11:55 ◼   ► Why am I there on day one?

00:11:57 ◼   ► And I think like looking back, obviously over the list of whatever, I almost

00:12:02 ◼   ► twenty platforms or experiences that I've considered a developing for or have developed for.

00:12:07 ◼   ► I have a lot of these kind of experiences where I've been burned, you

00:12:10 ◼   ► know, in the sense of like I spent time and energy building something that

00:12:13 ◼   ► ultimately turned out not to be a particularly good use of my time.

00:12:16 ◼   ► And I kinda wish that I had that time back.

00:12:19 ◼   ► Um but I've also I very rarely have built something, maybe with the exception

00:12:23 ◼   ► of iMessage apps, where I truly like regret going down that road.

00:12:27 ◼   ► Um and usually I think it's because as if There's a few rules that

00:12:30 ◼   ► I tend to think through of like trying to build.

00:12:33 ◼   ► Why why am I doing this?

00:12:34 ◼   ► Is it a good idea?

00:12:36 ◼   ► And I think the main rule that I've set a settled on is that

00:12:38 ◼   ► like I need to have a compelling reason to be there, that I'm not

00:12:43 ◼   ► trying to be there just to be there.

00:12:44 ◼   ► I need to have a problem that I am legitimately feeling like is solved

00:12:50 ◼   ► in a new and compelling way being on this platform that I couldn't do

00:12:54 ◼   ► somewhere else.

00:12:56 ◼   ► And I think if I have one of those, whether or not that platform

00:12:59 ◼   ► ends up being viable financially from a business perspective, does it make sense to

00:13:03 ◼   ► be there long term, etc.?

00:13:05 ◼   ► If I'm solving a real problem, then I'm also learning a real lesson.

00:13:09 ◼   ► I'm learning how to do something that is useful and that is actually the

00:13:15 ◼   ► thing that will be useful going forward for sure.

00:13:17 ◼   ► Whether or not it's a business and a viable and those kinds of things,

00:13:21 ◼   ► if I've learned something from it, it was worthwhile because I'm a better developer.

00:13:26 ◼   ► And so in order to do that, you have to solve a real problem.

00:13:29 ◼   ► It has to be making you think about a problem in a new and

00:13:33 ◼   ► interesting and compelling way.

00:13:34 ◼   ► And so like for example with Parameter Plus Plus, one of the things that

00:13:38 ◼   ► I think has always been challenging for our Pedometer Plus Plus is its route

00:13:42 ◼   ► planner, where you're choosing uh how the route you want to go as you

00:13:46 ◼   ► follow a hike or a walk or a run.

00:13:48 ◼   ► And that is so much better on a duo if you imagine you can

00:13:51 ◼   ► unfold your phone into a big map that is a reasonably large size that

00:13:58 ◼   ► I can not have you know a third of the screen taken up by

00:14:01 ◼   ► Chrome and controls.

00:14:02 ◼   ► Like a lot of the screen is just the map and you can browse

00:14:04 ◼   ► around and use it and like solving that problem has been a really interesting

00:14:08 ◼   ► and compelling thing I've enjoyed doing.

00:14:11 ◼   ► I think that has been useful.

00:14:12 ◼   ► And though that's the filter that I'm applying as I go through my other

00:14:16 ◼   ► apps or think of new ideas or things that would be compelling on the

00:14:19 ◼   ► duo.

00:14:20 ◼   ► It's what is a problem that I can't solve on a regular phone in

00:14:24 ◼   ► the same way, in as as compelling of a way that would have required

00:14:27 ◼   ► something that would have been either not possible or infeasible or impractical?

00:14:31 ◼   ► So that's the filter that I use.

00:14:33 ◼   ► And I think I'd encourage anyone to go through with a similar kind of

00:14:36 ◼   ► mindset.

00:14:37 ◼   ► Some of the bad reasons to be jumping on a bandwagon, to be like

00:14:42 ◼   ► it's a new platform, it's something new, and this is what has burned me

00:14:44 ◼   ► many times in the past, is doing it for the sort of possibility of

00:14:49 ◼   ► press attention

00:14:51 ◼   ► reputation, like wanting to do it because you think someone else will think it's

00:14:56 ◼   ► cool that you did it.

00:14:58 ◼   ► I've done that many times.

00:14:59 ◼   ► I am very guilty of that.

00:15:01 ◼   ► And I will say it is broadly not very good.

00:15:04 ◼   ► It is not a very healthy, compelling way to do it.

00:15:07 ◼   ► It is more l is sometimes useful, like in the sense of I have

00:15:12 ◼   ► a bit of a reputation of being on all the platforms on day one,

00:15:15 ◼   ► and that it's maybe a good thing but hopefully I'm doing it not to

00:15:19 ◼   ► get that reputation, if that makes sense, but doing it because it is a

00:15:23 ◼   ► compelling and useful thing that exists and is justifiable in its own right.

00:15:29 ◼   ► So don't do it for that reason.

00:15:31 ◼   ► Do it because you have a problem you want to solve.

00:15:33 ◼   ► I will also say it is totally fine to wait a little bit.

00:15:37 ◼   ► It is perfectly reasonable if you don't feel like you have for sure a

00:15:40 ◼   ► recompelling reason to ship something to wait a little bit, to give it a

00:15:46 ◼   ► little bit of time, to give it a little sense of like, ooh, let's

00:15:50 ◼   ► l give this one uh a couple of weeks, a couple of months.

00:15:53 ◼   ► If and you're obviously creating the risk that you might be missing out on

00:15:57 ◼   ► something.

00:15:57 ◼   ► Absolutely true.

00:15:59 ◼   ► But you're also saving yourself a lot of suffering and potentially challenging time.

00:16:03 ◼   ► And if you you may also have the benefit of waiting a little bit

00:16:07 ◼   ► and then as other people who have had those problems that they were trying

00:16:10 ◼   ► to solve put their products out there, you may get ideas.

00:16:13 ◼   ► You may be inspired in a way that is productive and not speculative.

00:16:18 ◼   ► So that's another thing there.

00:16:20 ◼   ► But also, maybe the last slide of this, and this is a good place

00:16:22 ◼   ► maybe to finish, is new platforms are just fun, are just exciting are just

00:16:28 ◼   ► fun things to do and to work with.

00:16:31 ◼   ► And it is entirely fine to work on one because you think it's fun,

00:16:36 ◼   ► to because you think it's interesting.

00:16:38 ◼   ► Not because it's gonna make your indie app business viable or successful or productive,

00:16:43 ◼   ► but just because it is fun and interesting and that's cool too.

00:16:47 ◼   ► That's been some of these platforms.

00:16:49 ◼   ► That was the early days of the Apple Watch where the watch kit thing

00:16:52 ◼   ► was terrible.

00:16:53 ◼   ► Like one of the worst programming develop like in experiences of my life was

00:16:56 ◼   ► that first early watch kit um development.

00:16:59 ◼   ► But I enjoyed it because it was fun.

00:17:01 ◼   ► I loved the Apple Watch as a platform and that was that was the

00:17:05 ◼   ► only way I got to do it.

00:17:06 ◼   ► I suffered through it and enjoyed it.

00:17:08 ◼   ► So that's a great reason to do it.

00:17:10 ◼   ► And so like I'm excited for the duo for kind of both of these

00:17:13 ◼   ► reasons.

00:17:14 ◼   ► I think I have some interesting problems to solve, but also I'm just kind

00:17:17 ◼   ► of enjoying it.

00:17:18 ◼   ► Like it's an interesting, kind of like a it's like a puzzle.

00:17:22 ◼   ► Like the way the duo works is a bit puzzleish where you have to

00:17:27 ◼   ► think about your app in all these different poses and layouts and how does

00:17:32 ◼   ► it work as you switch from the outer screen to the inner screen.

00:17:36 ◼   ► And that's an interesting problem.

00:17:37 ◼   ► Like I just have enjoyed thinking about that, having fun with that.

00:17:41 ◼   ► And so hopefully it pays off.

00:17:43 ◼   ► Hopefully it'll be interesting.

00:17:44 ◼   ► Hopefully, I will be solving some interesting problems on the duo.

00:17:47 ◼   ► Um, but even if I don't I've learned some lessons along the way, and

00:17:51 ◼   ► that I think that is the compelling and enduring reason to do that.

00:17:55 ◼   ► So, you know, when I look back on all of the failed or challenging

00:17:58 ◼   ► or low sort of low letter grade platforms in the past, most of the

00:18:03 ◼   ► time, as long as I was solving something interesting and learning something along the

00:18:06 ◼   ► way, I'm I'm happy to do that and I expect that will be my

00:18:09 ◼   ► experience with the duo as well.